JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Charles Collins on September 26, 2022, 11:55:06 AM
-
A number of years ago (well over two, iirc) I argued that I thought Ruby was hit by the police car backing in to pick up LHO. I don’t remember anyone exactly agreeing with me on this. Anyway, here is a link to a very high quality video that I found on DVP’s YouTube channel (posted about two years ago) that I think clearly shows that I was correct…
Thanks DVP!
-
A number of years ago (well over two, iirc) I argued that I thought Ruby was hit by the police car backing in to pick up LHO. I don’t remember anyone exactly agreeing with me on this. Anyway, here is a link to a very high quality video that I found on DVP’s YouTube channel (posted about two years ago) that I think clearly shows that I was correct…
Thanks DVP!
I , for one, noticed this years and years ago, but never thought it was worth mentioning since it adds nothing to the "case", so yes, you are correct.
-
I , for one, noticed this years and years ago, but never thought it was worth mentioning since it adds nothing to the "case", so yes, you are correct.
Thanks Steve, coming from you, it means a lot. One of the previous arguments against Ruby being hit by the car (iirc) involved the idea that Ruby was lunging towards LHO in an effort to continue his attack. To me it appears that the impact of the car with Ruby actually created most of the “lunge”. Perhaps Ruby also instinctively jumped out of the way after feeling the impact. But, after seeing the high quality video, I don’t think that I could believe that the car never hit Ruby.
-
I , for one, noticed this years and years ago, but never thought it was worth mentioning since it adds nothing to the "case", so yes, you are correct.
never thought it was worth mentioning since it adds nothing to the "case",
And that's just what 99.9% of the viewers would say....
-
Thanks Steve, coming from you, it means a lot. One of the previous arguments against Ruby being hit by the car (iirc) involved the idea that Ruby was lunging towards LHO in an effort to continue his attack. To me it appears that the impact of the car with Ruby actually created most of the “lunge”. Perhaps Ruby also instinctively jumped out of the way after feeling the impact. But, after seeing the high quality video, I don’t think that I could believe that the car never hit Ruby.
You're welcome, Charles, and thank you, as well. One of the first things I noticed was the bottom of Ruby's suit coat can be seen covering the tail light, and the very obvious knee bend. Just think...had the driver of the car been there a fraction of a second sooner, Ruby would've probably missed his intended target, and Oswald would've stood trial, but as with all things JFK, it just didn't turn out that way. :^(
-
You're welcome, Charles, and thank you, as well. One of the first things I noticed was the bottom of Ruby's suit coat can be seen covering the tail light, and the very obvious knee bend. Just think...had the driver of the car been there a fraction of a second sooner, Ruby would've probably missed his intended target, and Oswald would've stood trial, but as with all things JFK, it just didn't turn out that way. :^(
Yes, the “what ifs” in this case are numerous. So many of them favoring LHO, until Tippit stopped him. And LHO finally ran out of luck completely when Ruby came along…
-
never thought it was worth mentioning since it adds nothing to the "case",
And that's just what 99.9% of the viewers would say....
It appears to me that it at least threw Jack Ruby off balance and therefore made it easier for the other officers to get Ruby on the floor and disarm him very quickly. Who knows who else might have been inadvertently wounded or killed if Ruby had been able to stay upright and fight them with his gun still in hand.
-
A number of years ago (well over two, iirc) I argued that I thought Ruby was hit by the police car backing in to pick up LHO. I don’t remember anyone exactly agreeing with me on this. Anyway, here is a link to a very high quality video that I found on DVP’s YouTube channel (posted about two years ago) that I think clearly shows that I was correct…
. . .
Wow. Wow. I think you are correct. This has got to be one of the most major 'facts' of this case that is not (or up till now, was not) generally known even among people interested in this history, including the people on this forum.
I call it a 'fact' with quotes because there are no absolute facts in this world. Maybe the car barely missed touching him, but I doubt it.
This is the most surprising fact about the case that I have ever heard at this forum, or any JFK forum. At least nothing comes to my mind. Unlike most 'facts' presented at this forum, like Oswald is seen in the Altgens's photo in front of the TSBD building, this fact is both very interesting and very likely true. Most facts brought to light on this forum are either almost certainly false, or not that interesting. An excellent observation.
If the police and Ruby were all conspiring to kill Oswald, this has to be one the all time screw ups in the history of conspiracies. Having the police driver of the car, possibly 'pretending' he was trying to pick up Oswald, actually hitting the hitman. It would rank right up there with the a part of the police force trying to kill Oswald ended up arresting him in the theater instead.
Question:
If anyone has a 'fact' that was ever first (perhaps) presented on this forum that was:
* as interesting
* very likely true
* not generally known to people at this forum
let's hear what it is.
-
It appears to me that it at least threw Jack Ruby off balance and therefore made it easier for the other officers to get Ruby on the floor and disarm him very quickly. Who knows who else might have been inadvertently wounded or killed if Ruby had been able to stay upright and fight them with his gun still in hand.
Mr Ruby was intent on emptying his pistol into Oswald if he possibly could.
Just think...had the driver of the car been there a fraction of a second sooner, Ruby would've probably missed his intended target, and Oswald would've stood trial, but as with all things JFK, it just didn't turn out that way.
One skeptical ...or cynical [if you will] thought is that had Ruby failed in his attempt, Mr Oswald would have pulled a Jeffery Epstein and hung himself in his cell.
-
Mr Ruby was intent on emptying his pistol into Oswald if he possibly could.
One skeptical ...or cynical [if you will] thought is that had Ruby failed in his attempt, Mr Oswald would have pulled a Jeffery Epstein and hung himself in his cell.
Mr Ruby was intent on emptying his pistol into Oswald if he possibly could.
Yes, and I think that Ruby was somewhat of an athletic type (he reportedly liked to skate) and a fighter who might not have been so easily disarmed if the car hadn’t knocked him off balance.
-
Wow. Wow. I think you are correct. This has got to be one of the most major 'facts' of this case that is not (or up till now, was not) generally known even among people interested in this history, including the people on this forum.
I call it a 'fact' with quotes because there are no absolute facts in this world. Maybe the car barely missed touching him, but I doubt it.
This is the most surprising fact about the case that I have ever heard at this forum, or any JFK forum. At least nothing comes to my mind. Unlike most 'facts' presented at this forum, like Oswald is seen in the Altgens's photo in front of the TSBD building, this fact is both very interesting and very likely true. Most facts brought to light on this forum are either almost certainly false, or not that interesting. An excellent observation.
If the police and Ruby were all conspiring to kill Oswald, this has to be one the all time screw ups in the history of conspiracies. Having the police driver of the car, possibly 'pretending' he was trying to pick up Oswald, actually hitting the hitman. It would rank right up there with the a part of the police force trying to kill Oswald ended up arresting him in the theater instead.
Question:
If anyone has a 'fact' that was ever first (perhaps) presented on this forum that was:
* as interesting
* very likely true
* not generally known to people at this forum
let's hear what it is.
If anyone has a 'fact' that was ever first (perhaps) presented on this forum that was:
* as interesting
* very likely true
* not generally known to people at this forum
let's hear what it is.
I don’t remember who found it (it was someone on this forum though), but there is what appears to be the long paper bag (rifle size) laying, unfolded, on top of the boxes surrounding the sniper’s nest in one of the (I believe DPD) photos. You have to zoom in on the tops of the boxes to see it. I thought this was significant because before that discovery I think that there was not a known photo of that bag on the sixth floor of the TSBD.
-
How close Ruby was to missing his opportunity further lends itself to the conclusion that he was not acting as part of a plan. A few seconds later and Oswald is in the car and gone. Ruby sleeps in, makes a pointless stop at the Western Union, and arrives with just seconds to spare. Not how a plan works. Just a matter of fate and bad luck for Old Ozzie. Karma.
-
If anyone has a 'fact' that was ever first (perhaps) presented on this forum that was:
* as interesting
* very likely true
* not generally known to people at this forum
let's hear what it is.
I don’t remember who found it (it was someone on this forum though), but there is what appears to be the long paper bag (rifle size) laying, unfolded, on top of the boxes surrounding the sniper’s nest in one of the (I believe DPD) photos. You have to zoom in on the tops of the boxes to see it. I thought this was significant because before that discovery I think that there was not a known photo of that bag on the sixth floor of the TSBD.
Tracy Parnell has found and reported numerous new pieces of information in his research on the Antonio Veciana/Alpha 66 claim that his supposed handler was CIA officer David Atlee Phillips. And that he, Veciana, saw Phillips with Oswald in late September of 1963. Tracy has completely, for me, debunked it.
He's posted it all here and on his blog here: http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/p/the-bishop-hoax.html
-
If anyone has a 'fact' that was ever first (perhaps) presented on this forum that was:
* as interesting
* very likely true
* not generally known to people at this forum
let's hear what it is.
Tracy Parnell has found and reported numerous new pieces of information in his research on the Antonio Veciana/Alpha 66 claim that his supposed handler was CIA officer David Atlee Phillips. And that he, Veciana, saw Phillips with Oswald in late September of 1963. Tracy has completely, for me, debunked it.
He's posted it all here and on his blog here: http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/p/the-bishop-hoax.html
I don't know much about various CT claims, like the details about the involvement of the Texas Oil men, or the claims about Antonio Veciana. Still, to me, having Tracy Parnell shoot down a CT claim is like a "Dog bites Man" story. I may be good research, but not a super interesting story. Not like the "Hitman" getting bumped into while he was bumping off Oswald.
What did Antonio Veciana get from his claims? Well, he did get an Wikipedia article about him. I don't think he would have gotten one without his claims.
-
I'm not 100% sure, but I think Joe Elliott, in his two posts in this thread, is just kidding around and having a little fun at the expense of overly dramatic conspiracy theorists.
Aren't you, Joe?
Anyway, I think Joe has probably got his tongue in his cheek in this discussion. Because to think that this news about Jack Ruby's leg just barely getting grazed by the barely-moving police car is (to quote Joe Elliott) "the most surprising fact about the case that I have ever heard at this forum, or any JFK forum" is a statement that seems a tad bit over the top....don't you think?
-
I don't know much about various CT claims, like the details about the involvement of the Texas Oil men, or the claims about Antonio Veciana. Still, to me, having Tracy Parnell shoot down a CT claim is like a "Dog bites Man" story. I may be good research, but not a super interesting story. Not like the "Hitman" getting bumped into while he was bumping off Oswald.
What did Antonio Veciana get from his claims? Well, he did get an Wikipedia article about him. I don't think he would have gotten one without his claims.
Sure, if you judge Veciana's claims versus the general public's knowledge on the assassination I doubt more than one out of a thousand - ten thousand? - people know who Veciana was much less what he claimed. Of course, we can say that about most things we discuss here.
But during the "hot" phase of the JFK conspiracy cause in the 1970s and early 1980s - when we had more than 70% of the public believing there was a conspiracy - this was a major part of the "CIA killed JFK" allegation that was promoted. This was the Church Committee, HSCA, "CIA Family Jewels", period. From the accounts I've read, this piece, for example, caused a controversy in the country: https://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/GaetonFonzi/WhoKilledJFK.html
It's still a major part of the claim today that Oswald was "connected" (whatever that really means) to the CIA. And from that "the CIA" was behind the assassination. If you disprove the "Phillips was with Oswald" allegation, as Tracy has done for me, then where's the evidence for this relationship? Atsugi? The "Oswald Project" claim? What is left? In the larger world this is a small footnote at most. But I think in "JFK assassination world" it's at least a chapter.
As to shooting down the conspiracy claims: well, this is a whack-a-mole exercise with these people. You knock down three claims and another three will pop up. Of course, they won't accept your evidence disproving the first three either. As in: Oswald was impersonated and didn't really go to Mexico City because the CIA had no photos of him. They reject all of the other evidence presented by the CIA or government that he went there as fake but will suddenly accept CIA photos showing Oswald there? Sorry, I don't think so; they'll say they are fake too.
It's like a game for them where they think they are scoring points with their incessant "whatabouts."
-
I'm not 100% sure, but I think Joe Elliott, in his two posts in this thread, is just kidding around and having a little fun at the expense of overly dramatic conspiracy theorists.
Aren't you, Joe?
Anyway, I think Joe has probably got his tongue in his cheek in this discussion. Because to think that this news about Jack Ruby's leg just barely getting grazed by the barely-moving police car is (to quote Joe Elliott) "the most surprising fact about the case that I have ever heard at this forum, or any JFK forum" is a statement that seems a tad bit over the top....don't you think?
My first post was quite serious. Ruby being bumped by a car while killing Oswald was something I had not heard of before and I do find this interesting. I am surprised that this was not more generally known. Certainly not be me.
In my second post, I wasn't pretending to be a CTer. I was merely pointing out, that if there was a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy to murder JFK, that if large portions of the Dallas Police were trying to kill Oswald, it would have been an incredible foul up for the car being used to pick up Oswald to bump into the hitman, Ruby. To bump Ruby aside almost before he could bump off Oswald. Of course, I don't believe that.
Clearly, the police were nervous about the transfer of Oswald. They wished their supervisor had not told the press in advance. Which he did because the press pressured him about Oswald's black eye and it would look bad if the police didn't do everything involving Oswald in secretive ways. Of course, they should move Oswald in secretive ways. That was a mistake.
But, under the circumstances, they did the best they could. The tried to move in a car to pick up Oswald as soon as they could. But the press was in the way of the car and didn't want to budge so they won't miss any photo opportunities. And the presence of so many suit wearing press allowed Ruby, who usually wore a suit and did so that day, to blend in. The car got into position just a couple of seconds too late, but still managed to bump Ruby.
-
My first post was quite serious. Ruby being bumped by a car while killing Oswald was something I had not heard of before and I do find this interesting. I am surprised that this was not more generally known. Certainly not be me.
In my second post, I wasn't pretending to be a CTer. I was merely pointing out, that if there was a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy to murder JFK, that if large portions of the Dallas Police were trying to kill Oswald, it would have been an incredible foul up for the car being used to pick up Oswald to bump into the hitman, Ruby. To bump Ruby aside almost before he could bump off Oswald. Of course, I don't believe that.
Clearly, the police were nervous about the transfer of Oswald. They wished their supervisor had not told the press in advance. Which he did because the press pressured him about Oswald's black eye and it would look bad if the police didn't do everything involving Oswald in secretive ways. Of course, they should move Oswald in secretive ways. That was a mistake.
But, under the circumstances, they did the best they could. The tried to move in a car to pick up Oswald as soon as they could. But the press was in the way of the car and didn't want to budge so they won't miss any photo opportunities. And the presence of so many suit wearing press allowed Ruby, who usually wore a suit and did so that day, to blend in. The car got into position just a couple of seconds too late, but still managed to bump Ruby.
Yes, it is quite surprising that this gets practically no attention. And it is exciting to learn something about the events that you didn’t know beforehand. There aren’t a lot of ramifications from this incident because Ruby apparently reacted quickly enough to keep from getting significantly injured. But, your points are certainly valid and I believe they are something that people should consider.
Another, unrelated, point that people seem to rarely consider is: Why would someone who is planning to assassinate JFK leave a note for Hosty at the Dallas FBI headquarters shortly before the assassination attempt? This would tend to bring attention to himself, and that attention is not something that I think he would want (if he was planning the assassination). Just some food for thought…
-
My first post was quite serious. Ruby being bumped by a car while killing Oswald was something I had not heard of before and I do find this interesting. I am surprised that this was not more generally known. Certainly not be me.
In my second post, I wasn't pretending to be a CTer. I was merely pointing out, that if there was a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy to murder JFK, that if large portions of the Dallas Police were trying to kill Oswald, it would have been an incredible foul up for the car being used to pick up Oswald to bump into the hitman, Ruby. To bump Ruby aside almost before he could bump off Oswald. Of course, I don't believe that.
Clearly, the police were nervous about the transfer of Oswald. They wished their supervisor had not told the press in advance. Which he did because the press pressured him about Oswald's black eye and it would look bad if the police didn't do everything involving Oswald in secretive ways. Of course, they should move Oswald in secretive ways. That was a mistake.
But, under the circumstances, they did the best they could. The tried to move in a car to pick up Oswald as soon as they could. But the press was in the way of the car and didn't want to budge so they won't miss any photo opportunities. And the presence of so many suit wearing press allowed Ruby, who usually wore a suit and did so that day, to blend in. The car got into position just a couple of seconds too late, but still managed to bump Ruby.
Thanks for the explanation, Joe. I hope you don't think I was trying to be rude by asking you whether you were 100% serious about this issue.
I guess maybe this news about Ruby getting bumped by the car fender doesn't affect me as much here in 2022 because it's something I had noticed years ago---and is something I've even mentioned in some of my online posts over the years, including this 2014 discussion (http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/02/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-638.html#Car-Hits-Ruby).
-
Another, unrelated, point that people seem to rarely consider is: Why would someone who is planning to assassinate JFK leave a note for Hosty at the Dallas FBI headquarters shortly before the assassination attempt? This would tend to bring attention to himself, and that attention is not something that I think he would want (if he was planning the assassination). Just some food for thought…
I agree with you 100% on this point, Charles. I said the very same thing 13 years ago:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/james-hosty.html
(What's that they say about great minds thinking alike?) ;D
-
I noticed this recently. The West and East slabs of the Triple Underpass Bridge differ in height.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/c0/c0/lz7Zy6EP_o.jpg)
The streets under the bridge slope downwards east-to-west about 1°. You can't assume too much about the assassination.
The HSCA and many researchers relied on a limousine drawing that was very inaccurate. Andrew Mason first told me about it, and we both began work on improving the drawing. In the end, at least in my estimation, Thomas Canning's relative position of Kennedy to Connally survived. Canning, because the limo drawing erroneously had the backseat width somewhat narrowed, unknowingly placed both men equally a few inches towards the midline of the car than they actually were.
-
I noticed this recently. The West and East slabs of the Triple Underpass Bridge differ in height.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/c0/c0/lz7Zy6EP_o.jpg)
The streets under the bridge slope downwards east-to-west about 1°. You can't assume too much about the assassination.
The HSCA and many researchers relied on a limousine drawing that was very inaccurate. Andrew Mason first told me about it, and we both began work on improving the drawing. In the end, at least in my estimation, Thomas Canning's relative position of Kennedy to Connally survived. Canning, because the limo drawing erroneously had the backseat width somewhat narrowed, unknowingly placed both men equally a few inches towards the midline of the car than they actually were.
Assumptions are risky no matter what. I think that most of us make too many assumptions about all kinds of things in life. But I agree that when it comes to the JFK assassination assumptions are especially risky.
-
I don’t remember who found it (it was someone on this forum though), but there is what appears to be the long paper bag (rifle size) laying, unfolded, on top of the boxes surrounding the sniper’s nest in one of the (I believe DPD) photos. You have to zoom in on the tops of the boxes to see it. I thought this was significant because before that discovery I think that there was not a known photo of that bag on the sixth floor of the TSBD.
Charles, I'd like to see this. Any chance you have more info?
-
Charles, I'd like to see this. Any chance you have more info?
I will look for it Bill. If I remember correctly, it is one of the DPD photos that shows the boxes surrounding the sniper’s nest from a distance. It is from the north (looking south). And what appears to be the bag can be seen on top of the boxes.
-
I will look for it Bill. If I remember correctly, it is one of the DPD photos that shows the boxes surrounding the sniper’s nest from a distance. It is from the north (looking south). And what appears to be the bag can be seen on top of the boxes.
First discovered by Patrick Jackson about 3 years ago.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2004.msg64638.html#msg64638 (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2004.msg64638.html#msg64638)
-
First discovered by Patrick Jackson about 3 years ago.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2004.msg64638.html#msg64638 (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2004.msg64638.html#msg64638)
Thanks, that’s the one that I was referring to!
-
First discovered by Patrick Jackson about 3 years ago.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2004.msg64638.html#msg64638 (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2004.msg64638.html#msg64638)
I seem to have a memory of using my 3D computer model to estimate the time that the photo was taken. And someone else, probably James Hackerott, also did the same. But I don’t see any of this in this thread. Perhaps we posted in a related thread?
-
I don’t remember who found it (it was someone on this forum though), but there is what appears to be the long paper bag (rifle size) laying, unfolded, on top of the boxes surrounding the sniper’s nest in one of the (I believe DPD) photos. You have to zoom in on the tops of the boxes to see it. I thought this was significant because before that discovery I think that there was not a known photo of that bag on the sixth floor of the TSBD.
Charles, I'd like to see this. Any chance you have more info?
I will look for it Bill. If I remember correctly, it is one of the DPD photos that shows the boxes surrounding the sniper’s nest from a distance. It is from the north (looking south). And what appears to be the bag can be seen on top of the boxes.
First discovered by Patrick Jackson about 3 years ago.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2004.msg64638.html#msg64638 (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2004.msg64638.html#msg64638)
Thanks Charles and John.
CE-503. I've seen that photo a couple hundred times and never noticed that. I'll have to take a closer look.
Thanks again.
-
I seem to have a memory of using my 3D computer model to estimate the time that the photo was taken. And someone else, probably James Hackerott, also did the same. But I don’t see any of this in this thread. Perhaps we posted in a related thread?
Charles, I seem to recall your modeling of the sunlight striking one of the pipes and estimating the time from that. I also think it was John Mytton who suggested that idea as a possible way to time the photo. I thought that work was in this thread but can't find it either.
-
Charles, I seem to recall your modeling of the sunlight striking one of the pipes and estimating the time from that. I also think it was John Mytton who suggested that idea as a possible way to time the photo. I thought that work was in this thread but can't find it either.
Yes, I think that there’s a patch of sunlight visible on the inside of the East wall just south of the southern most window that was used. I think that both of us could now get more precise and have more confidence in the results now that you have made some window measurements, etc. on-site. I think that I will see what I come up with first chance that I get.
-
Yes, I think that there’s a patch of sunlight visible on the inside of the East wall just south of the southern most window that was used. I think that both of us could now get more precise and have more confidence in the results now that you have made some window measurements, etc. on-site. I think that I will see what I come up with first chance that I get.
Here is the thread:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2258.0.html
-
Here is the thread:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2258.0.html
Thanks James, that’s the one.
-
Thanks James, that’s the one.
I ran the sun from 1pm to 3pm and the sun strike on the east wall looks about right and agrees with your 3D work around 2:20pm. However, my sim does not pick up the lower sun/shadow on the straight pipe during this time, if that is what we are actually seeing in the CE502/508 photo.
I’ll add this and the animation to the earlier thread for reference.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2258.16.html
-
I ran the sun from 1pm to 3pm and the sun strike on the east wall looks about right and agrees with your 3D work around 2:20pm. However, my sim does not pick up the lower sun/shadow on the straight pipe during this time, if that is what we are actually seeing in the CE502/508 photo.
I’ll add this and the animation to the earlier thread for reference.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2258.16.html
Awesome! I tried it again and was getting close to the same (2:15 to 2:20). Thanks again James!
-
I think Ruby being hit by the car was the result of a misunderstanding by the driver. When the Dallas police, discussing among themselves, said that Ruby would have to be bumped off, they didn't mean they wanted thus done immediately. And by "bumped off", they didn't mean "touched by a bumper".
:)