JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Alan Ford on September 19, 2022, 02:03:25 AM
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From Agent Bookhout's solo report on Mr Oswald's first interrogation:
“Oswald stated that on November 22 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-Cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there.
Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employee’s lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley.”
We all think we know what the words "at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers" mean: in the aftermath of the assassination.
But what if they don't mean that at all?
Cf! Agent Hosty on the selfsame interrogation:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKMTzxJ4/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Now cf this:
Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?
Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone.
Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?
Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.
Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.
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On the Saturday, Chief Jesse Curry (as quoted in the New York Times) told reporters that Mr. Oswald was seen by an officer in the lunchroom WITH OTHER EMPLOYEES
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Now cf this:
Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?
Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone.
Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?
Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.
Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.
Mrs. Reid here is--------with caught-on-the-hop vagueness---------recollecting the presence of MEN (plural) in the lunchroom.
Who were these men? Mr. Joe Molina is the only male employee who (other than Mr. Oswald) admitted to having visited for any length of time the lunchroom that lunchtime.
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From Agent Bookhout's solo report on Mr Oswald's first interrogation:
“Oswald stated that on November 22 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-Cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there.
Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employee’s lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley.”
This would seem to describe
------------Mr. Truly already present in the lunchroom when the officer came in
------------the police officer going through the building UNACCOMPANIED
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From the FBI interview report of Ms. Pauline Sanders, 11/24/63:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMq27c1X/Sanders.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Again the motif of Mr. Truly already in the lunchroom when an unaccompanied officer came in................
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From Agent Bookhout's solo report on Mr Oswald's first interrogation:
“Oswald stated that on November 22 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-Cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there.
Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employee’s lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley.”
We all think we know what the words "at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers" mean: in the aftermath of the assassination.
But what if they don't mean that at all?
Cf! Agent Hosty on the selfsame interrogation:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKMTzxJ4/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Lee Didn't know what officer Baker was doing....He ASSUMED that was the search which we all know started about 12:50 ....
Lee saw Baker and assumed that is what Fritz was referring to....
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Like a large and growing number of folks, I believe the POST-ASSASSINATION lunchroom encounter between Mr. Oswald, Officer Baker and Mr. Truly is a fabrication designed to rob Mr. Oswald of his alibi.
However, a scenario might suggest itself that would help explain why the lunchroom was chosen as the location for that fictional encounter:
A man dressed as an officer goes through the building several minutes before the motorcade.
His ostensible task: to check that everyone in the building is a legitimate employee.
His real task: to make sure the sixth floor is kept clear for the motorcade.
On his way up to six, he pops his head into the lunchroom on the second floor. Mr. Truly, Mrs. Reid and Mr. Oswald are in there. The 'cop' seeks verification that Mr. Oswald is an employee. He gets it. He heads on up the rear stairway--------but before doing so, he informs those in the lunchroom (as he will inform anyone else he runs into) that the sixth floor is off limits for security reasons.
On six, he finds Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams. He tells him to get off the floor.
When Mr. Jack Dougherty goes up to six, just before the motorcade, he is told the floor is off limits.
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Lee Didn't know what officer Baker was doing....He ASSUMED that was the search which we all know started about 12:50 ....
Lee saw Baker and assumed that is what Fritz was referring to....
But there is no way Mr. Oswald would react to a cop challenging him in the lunchroom in the way later described by Officer Baker & Mr. Truly by going downstairs and just having lunch-----------UNLESS there was no doubt in his mind that the P. Parade hadn't yet arrived.
Everything changes once we factor in what Agent Hosty's draft interrogation report reveals: Mr. Oswald told Fritz he-----AFTER his visit to the lunchroom, and AFTER returning to one to eat lunch-----"went outside to watch P. Parade".
So IF Mr. Oswald really did describe a cop coming into the lunchroom, then he was revealing to his interrogators a PRE-MOTORCADE police (or 'police') presence in the building. If the cop was legit, then DPD are in for the most grievous embarrassment. If the cop was not legit, then................
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On the Saturday, Chief Jesse Curry (as quoted in the New York Times) told reporters that Mr. Oswald was seen by an officer in the lunchroom WITH OTHER EMPLOYEES
In September '64, Mr. Truly and Officer Baker are brought in to give statements that have one key purpose: to establish that Mr. Oswald was the only person in the lunchroom at the time of the encounter. A 'rumor' that a lunchroom encounter was in fact witnessed by some person or persons other than the three protagonists needs to be laid to rest............
What if there WAS a lunchroom encounter, but it happened BEFORE the motorcade's arrival?
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What if there WAS a lunchroom encounter, but it happened BEFORE the motorcade's arrival?
It would mean that Agent Bookhout's account does not, strictly speaking, tell a lie, but has been carefully worded so as to lend a false impression of TIMEFRAME:
“Oswald stated that on November 22 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers [PRE-MOTORCADE], he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-Cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there.
Mr. Truly was present [ALREADY IN THE LUNCHROOM] and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and [ON HIS OWN] continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employee’s lunch room. He thereafter went outside [TO WATCH THE P. PARADE] and [AFTER THE SHOTS RANG OUT LEFT THE STEPS AND] stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley [BY THE RAILROAD YARDS].”
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On this scenario,
"[T]he time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers" refers NOT to what Mr. Oswald must have known would be the open, hours-long POST-SHOOTING search of the building, BUT to what he clearly understood to have been a PRE-MOTORCADE sweep of the building
"[A]t the time of the search..." is a really strange way to give the timeframe if it refers to post-shooting
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Now I can't find it...somewhere in testimony or affidavit or deposition was a mention by I believe a cop that stated that as they [or he] was going up the stairs during the search...that a couple of guys were coming down. Any clue?
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Now I can't find it...somewhere in testimony or affidavit or deposition was a mention by I believe a cop that stated that as they [or he] was going up the stairs during the search...that a couple of guys were coming down. Any clue?
Deputy Luke Mooney
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There are five pages of Captain Will Fritz's notes. It has been convincingly shown that pages 2-5 are slavishly derived from Agent Bookhout's official interrogation reports.
However! Page 1 is the odd one out, inasmuch as it does NOT follow the order and (in all respects) substance of the corresponding Bookhout report.
Could it be that Captain Fritz actually wrote the following words down DURING the first interrogation session-------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCwW5vGM/Fritz-out-with-Bill-Shelley-in-front.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
------------but didn't bother taking notes in subsequent sessions?
If so (big if!), then combining these words with Agent Hosty's draft interrogation report---------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKMTzxJ4/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
---------------would give us an officer coming into the second-floor lunchroom PRIOR TO the motorcade
Thumb1:
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Anyone who believes there was a conspiracy, and Mr. Oswald was not the sixth-floor shooter, but that it would have been left totally to chance that the sixth floor would be clear of employees at the time of the motorcade's arrival in Dealey Plaza--------------needs their head examined.
Remember! Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams recalled an informal arrangement amongst sixth-floor crew that they would come back upstairs to watch the motorcade from the sixth floor. The perfect vantage point, but it never happened....................... An AMAZING, you might almost say: INCREDIBLE, stroke of luck for the plotters!
No, the sixth floor would have been secured. It would therefore make perfect sense that any male manual workers still in the building a few minutes before the motorcade would be found and told (by 'law enforcement') not to go up to the sixth floor. Mr. Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom would have fallen into this category. His manual-workman clothes would have led to his being singled out by the 'cop'.
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It goes without saying that the 'cop' who-------on the present scenario---------came into the second-floor lunchroom before the motorcade was not Officer Baker.
But Officer Baker did dash into the building just after the shooting. In his same-day affidavit, he described catching a man walking away from the rear stairway several floors up the building.
Mr. Oswald, meanwhile, ALSO talked of being challenged by a cop at the FRONT ENTRANCE of the building.
Was the POST-ASSASSINATION lunchroom story designed to merge all these incidents into ONE incident---------------an incident compatible with the Oswald-Did-It scenario/an incident not suggestive of CONSPIRACY/an incident compatible (should the worst come to the worst) with the Oswald-Out-Front FACT?
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From the FBI interview report of Ms. Pauline Sanders, 11/24/63:
PAULINE E. SANDERS..a Clerk, Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, advised she arrived at work at 8:45 a.m., on November 22, 1963, and immediately reported to the main office where she was employed. She said she was acquainted with LEE HARVEY OSWALD who worked in the warehouse section and she has seen him three or four times during lunch breaks in the lunch room but did not talk to him on any occasion. She said he was very quiet and she had never seen him talking to any of the other employees that she could recall. She said she would not be in a position to observe what time he arrived at work or the way he arrived.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/exhibits/ce1434.htm
So was this the chatterbox "Oswald" that we heard about on the bus trip to Mexico City that revealed his whole life story to total strangers?
Deputy Luke Mooney
How did you know this so super quickly Mr Ford? Thumb1:
Mr. BALL - There are two elevators there?
Mr. MOONEY - I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time.
Mr. BALL - You took the west one, or the east one?
Mr. MOONEY - I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.
Mr. BALL - Did it work with a push button?
Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.
Mr. BALL - You were alone?
Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time.
Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.
Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor?
Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows---some of them were open over on the south side.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/mooney.htm
You see...I believe that Mr Mooney just may have seen the 6th floor assassins.
He "believed they were deputy sheriffs"?
Luke Mooney had been a Dallas County deputy sheriff for 6 years and he wasn't sure who they were?
Also confirming that the power went out.
Those guys had some pals there at the back door perhaps [maybe they cut the power?]--------
SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
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Now for a more benign version of the cop-in-lunchroom scenario........
On 16 July 1964 Patrolman Barnett wrote a statement for Chief Curry. It tells of his assignment at the northwest corner of Elm & Houston.
We get this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkVMjtt8/Burnett-windows-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(My thanks to Mr. Charles Collins for posting the full document in another recent thread.)
So: at least one officer was keeping an eye on the windows of the building. Most interesting! For it proves some level of solicitude about that building on the part of at least one member of law enforcement.
Now! Put yourself in Patrolman Barnett's shoes. As the arrival of the motorcade draws nearer, you notice that the rain has eased off and there are now open windows in upper floors. Perhaps you see (as Mr. Arnold Rowland does) a man leaning out at the northeast corner window of the sixth floor. Being a conscientious guy, you are a little concerned.
What do you do? You either decide to leave your post to go inside and do a hurried last-minute sweep of the building; or you ask a fellow officer to do same.
Is it really beyond the bounds of possibility that this is just what happened, and that Mr. Oswald remembered having his presence in the lunchroom queried by an officer a few minutes before the P. Parade?