JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Walt Cakebread on July 31, 2022, 06:48:12 PM

Title: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 31, 2022, 06:48:12 PM
Charles Collins posted this picture of CE 139.   It appears to have been painted black in the past.
   
(https://i.vgy.me/IoLsNE.jpg)

This is very interesting.....   Because, before Benito  Mussolini was lynched, he was Il Duce.   And he had a special, elite, corps of body guards.  Those elite body guards had special and very distinctive black uniforms. All of their equipment was highly polished black....boots, belts, helmets, etc. 

Their rifles were the carcano model 91/ 38 short rifle , ( the same model as CE 139) ) The wooden stocks of those rifle were lacquered with a gloss black lacquer ..... They are very very rare and I don't believe that there is one in the US.   ..... BUT.... CE 139 does appear to be one of those carcanos....   

Does anybody know of a very detailed description of CE 139?
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Gerry Down on July 31, 2022, 08:04:22 PM
I think it's black from the fingerprint tests that were done on it. It was originally brown I'd imagine.
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 31, 2022, 08:21:34 PM
I think it's black from the fingerprint tests that were done on it. It was originally brown I'd imagine.

It was originally brown I'd imagine.

Yes, that would be a fair assumption..... But Mussolini may have ordered the rifles for his "Guardie Del Duce"  lacquered in gloss black, from the factory. THAT  is the basic question.

WAS CE 139 ever stained brown?....  IF ?  IF? Ce 139 is actually a rifle of the Guardie Del Duce then the big question is... Where the hell did Lee Oswald get his hands on a very rare rifle?
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Charles Collins on July 31, 2022, 08:42:58 PM
I think it's black from the fingerprint tests that were done on it. It was originally brown I'd imagine.


Day indicated that the wooden stock was too rough for useable fingerprints. I believe that only the metal parts were dusted. Also, take a look at the backyard photos. See how the wood compares with the black clothes…
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Charles Collins on July 31, 2022, 08:54:13 PM
It was originally brown I'd imagine.

Yes, that would be a fair assumption..... But Mussolini may have ordered the rifles for his "Guardie Del Duce"  lacquered in gloss black, from the factory. THAT  is the basic question.

WAS CE 139 ever stained brown?....  IF ?  IF? Ce 139 is actually a rifle of the Guardie Del Duce then the big question is... Where the hell did Lee Oswald get his hands on a very rare rifle?


That’s a big if…

But I imagine that you will find a way to “prove” your idea. And invent another story for everyone’s entertainment…
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 31, 2022, 10:51:06 PM

That’s a big if…

But I imagine that you will find a way to “prove” your idea. And invent another story for everyone’s entertainment…

If you're seeking entertainment .... read the posts by "Richard Smith".
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on July 31, 2022, 11:06:04 PM

That’s a big if…

But I imagine that you will find a way to “prove” your idea. And invent another story for everyone’s entertainment…

Did we ever resolve the problem of the discrepancy between the Alyea film that shows the carcano lying on the floor and Lt  Day grabbing the leather sling and lifting the rifle FROM THE FLOOR  while the official DPD in situ photo shows the rifle jammed between boxes of books?
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Richard Smith on July 31, 2022, 11:31:51 PM
Charles Collins posted this picture of CE 139.   It appears to have been painted black in the past.
   
(https://i.vgy.me/IoLsNE.jpg)

This is very interesting.....   Because, before Benito  Mussolini was lynched, he was Il Duce.   And he had a special, elite, corps of body guards.  Those elite body guards had special and very distinctive black uniforms. All of their equipment was highly polished black....boots, belts, helmets, etc. 

Their rifles were the carcano model 91/ 38 short rifle , ( the same model as CE 139) ) The wooden stocks of those rifle were lacquered with a gloss black lacquer ..... They are very very rare and I don't believe that there is one in the US.   ..... BUT.... CE 139 does appear to be one of those carcanos....   

Does anybody know of a very detailed description of CE 139?

Whew.  Red rings, umbrella signals, and now Mussolini.  Maybe Mick and the boys can incorporate this latest fantasy into song:

I see a MC rifle
And I want it painted black
No colors anymore
I want them to turn black.
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Charles Collins on July 31, 2022, 11:49:32 PM
Did we ever resolve the problem of the discrepancy between the Alyea film that shows the carcano lying on the floor and Lt  Day grabbing the leather sling and lifting the rifle FROM THE FLOOR  while the official DPD in situ photo shows the rifle jammed between boxes of books?


Question for you Walt: If you try to make the rifle stand up by itself (on a flat surface like a floor) with the bottom (flat) part of the magazine as partially supporting the rifle, will it stay upright without any additional support?
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Bill Chapman on July 31, 2022, 11:55:29 PM
I think it's black from the fingerprint tests that were done on it. It was originally brown I'd imagine.

(https://i.postimg.cc/j53BfL4c/BLACK-STOCK.png)
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 01, 2022, 01:27:49 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/j53BfL4c/BLACK-STOCK.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/j53BfL4c/BLACK-STOCK.png)

That's a very good picture of ce 139.....   And I do believe that the stock was painted black at some point in time.   And I would guess that it was painted black over the brown finish that all carcano's left the factory with.  So WHO put the black paint on that rifle and Why?

I wonder if there is a list of the serial numbers of the rifles of the Guardie Del Duce?
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 01, 2022, 03:39:12 AM
Did we ever resolve the problem of the discrepancy between the Alyea film that shows the carcano lying on the floor and Lt  Day grabbing the leather sling and lifting the rifle FROM THE FLOOR  while the official DPD in situ photo shows the rifle jammed between boxes of books?

Yes, about a dozen times.
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 01, 2022, 07:09:17 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/j53BfL4c/BLACK-STOCK.png)

That's a very good picture of ce 139.....   And I do believe that the stock was painted black at some point in time.   And I would guess that it was painted black over the brown finish that all carcano's left the factory with.  So WHO put the black paint on that rifle and Why?

I wonder if there is a list of the serial numbers of the rifles of the Guardie Del Duce?

Ya thanks but that was the picture you put up; I just applied a little contrast.
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 02, 2022, 12:16:00 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/8Pv3g82h/black-rifle.png)
Same rifle as above
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on August 15, 2022, 01:14:57 AM
Click on photo for enlargement -------------

(https://i.ibb.co/qdtvSYL/rifle2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qdtvSYL)
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 15, 2022, 01:36:24 AM
Click on photo for enlargement -------------

(https://i.ibb.co/qdtvSYL/rifle2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qdtvSYL)

ARE THESE TWO PHOTOS OF A CARCANO THE SAME RIFLE  ??

(https://i.postimg.cc/8Pv3g82h/black-rifle.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/qdtvSYL/rifle2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qdtvSYL)
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 15, 2022, 02:08:18 AM
Yes, about a dozen times.

What was the explanation for the discrepancy between the Alyea film which shows Lt Day reaching out and picking up the rifle (which is lying on it's side )  by the leather sling and the official DPD in situ  photo which shows the rifle NOT lying on the floor but jammed upright between boxes.
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 15, 2022, 02:53:34 AM

Question for you Walt: If you try to make the rifle stand up by itself (on a flat surface like a floor) with the bottom (flat) part of the magazine as partially supporting the rifle, will it stay upright without any additional support?

If you try to make the rifle stand up by itself (on a flat surface like a floor) with the bottom (flat) part of the magazine as partially supporting the rifle, will it stay upright without any additional support?

Yes, my carcano will stand upright but my rifle does not have a two pound scope mounted off to the left side.



Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Charles Collins on August 15, 2022, 11:14:18 AM
If you try to make the rifle stand up by itself (on a flat surface like a floor) with the bottom (flat) part of the magazine as partially supporting the rifle, will it stay upright without any additional support?

Yes, my carcano will stand upright but my rifle does not have a two pound scope mounted off to the left side.


Do you have an accurate weight of your rifle (no scope)?


Edit: I believe that Robert Frazier testified that the rifle and scope weighed 8-pounds. Wikipedia lists that model rifle as weighing 7.5-pounds. Therefore the scope weighs 1/2-pound. Not two pounds as you claim.
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 15, 2022, 03:33:25 PM

Do you have an accurate weight of your rifle (no scope)?


Edit: I believe that Robert Frazier testified that the rifle and scope weighed 8-pounds. Wikipedia lists that model rifle as weighing 7.5-pounds. Therefore the scope weighs 1/2-pound. Not two pounds as you claim.

The weight of the scope isn't critical.....I believe that the scope mounted on the left would cause the rifle to topple to the left if you tried to balance the rifle on it's magazine.   When i set my carcano on the floor it will balance on the magazine but it is a delicate balance.   A bit of wind from the side would probably cause it to fall over on it's side.
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 16, 2022, 07:38:58 PM
ARE THESE TWO PHOTOS OF A CARCANO THE SAME RIFLE  ??

(https://i.postimg.cc/8Pv3g82h/black-rifle.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/qdtvSYL/rifle2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qdtvSYL)

These photos are of two different carcanos....   Can someone offer an explanation?
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on August 16, 2022, 09:07:40 PM
The sling was professionally installed...
Who did the job?

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/omeka-net/30216/archive/fullsize/8053649afa9b769087072ef98c786a85.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAI3ATG3OSQLO5HGKA&Expires=1661385600&Signature=5WaLHWLKdnN5roy55MlFUzYfhaE%3D)
Title: Re: Was the carcano, CE 139, painted black?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 16, 2022, 11:07:25 PM
The sling was professionally installed...
Who did the job?

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/omeka-net/30216/archive/fullsize/8053649afa9b769087072ef98c786a85.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAI3ATG3OSQLO5HGKA&Expires=1661385600&Signature=5WaLHWLKdnN5roy55MlFUzYfhaE%3D)

I believe that the carrying strap  ( it's not a sling) was made for the carcano.   The liars have attempted to sell us the BS that Lee made that strap out of an old US Army air corps pistol belt.   That's utter BS!

But back to the two photos that definitely display two different rifles, one with a brown wooden stock and the other with the stock painted black.   I'm now wondering if the rifle found in the TSBD did not have the serial number C2766 ..... Yes, I know that  we've seen photos of a carcano barrel with that serial number stamped on it but was that the number that was on the TSBD rifle when it was found?   It's a very easy job to switch the barrels from one carcano to another.