JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Gerry Down on June 24, 2022, 08:38:51 PM
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Here's a nice little demonstration of why a bullet from the grassy knoll could not have flung JFK back into his seat. A bullet has just way too little mass to move an adults head so violently back and to the left. A bullet only has enough mass to move an adult head a little bit - which is why Oswalds bullet to JFKs head was only able to move JFKs head forward about 2 inches as seen in the Zapruder film when it is slowed down.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WvqTnqR2kn0
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Here's a nice little demonstration of why a bullet from the grassy knoll could not have flung JFK back into his seat. A bullet has just way too little mass to move an adults head so violently back and to the left. A bullet only has enough mass to move an adult head a little bit - which is why Oswalds bullet to JFKs head was only able to move JFKs head forward about 2 inches as seen in the Zapruder film when it is slowed down.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WvqTnqR2kn0
And what is the maximum speed a Carcano bullet should push JFK’s head forward? Here are my calculations. Note, I don’t use the more scientific metric units but the physics still work using ‘pounds’ and ‘mph’ (miles per hour).
Mass of the bullet: About 10 grams, or about one third of an ounce, or about one fiftieth (1/50) of a pound.
Speed of the bullet: 1400 mph
Mass of JFK’s head, about 8 pounds.
Speed that the bullet could push JFK’s head:
N (momentum) = M (mass) * V (velocity)
V = N / M
Momentum of bullet = 1/50 * 1400 mph = 28 pounds * mph
Mass of JFK’s head = 7 pounds
Speed of JFK’s head if all the momentum of the bullet is received by the head = 28 pounds * mph / 7 pounds = 4 mph
The actual speed of JFK’s head moving forward between frames 312 and 313? 2 mph
Note, during z312 – z313, only JFK’s head moves forward. The torso does not. This was determined by Physics graduate student William Hoffman working with Josiah Thompson on the book ‘Six Seconds in Dallas’.
This accords well with Larry Sturdivan’s estimate who, based on his work with ballistics, judged that only half the momentum of the bullet would be absorbed by JFK’s head. The bullet fragments that exited from the head would have half the speed of the bullet at the initial strike, about 700 mph and these fragments would dent the windshield frame, crack the windshield and a third fragment slightly wounded James Tague.
A bullet from the front doesn’t work because:
• Unlike the initial forward movement, both the head and the torso moved backwards during z313 – z318. This would require too much momentum from a single bullet, unless a highly implausible anti-tank weapon was used.
• The speed of JFK’s head backwards is not constant but starts slowly, around 0.5 mph and over the next quarter of a second gradually builds up to 1.8 mph. This would be consistent not with one bullet, but a series of bullets, each striking the head, once every 1/18 th of second or once every Zapruder frame, adding more and more momentum with each frame. A single shot from a rifle can be fired accurately, but not a stream of bullets from a machine gun.
• Also, one would expect the head to move backwards with a higher speed at first (with the bullet ‘pushing’ only the head), then at a lower speed (with the bullet ‘pushing’ both the head and the torso). This is the opposite of what is seen in the Zapruder film.
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These calculations are very useful. Are you getting them from any particular book or source?
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So what are the physics of JFK's 'random' head snap from right to left shortly after appearing from behind the sign. Approx Z-228 onwards
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1HjDhsk/275-341.gif)
The random head snap coincides with a white object/projectile appearing to strike his jaw-line.
JFK's left index finger pointing to the shooter. Clue
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So what are the physics of JFK's 'random' head snap from right to left shortly after appearing from behind the sign. Approx Z-228 onwards
A gulp of blood going down JFK's windpipe and him suddenly realizing he can't breath.
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I am thinking any photographic evidence that might exist is preferable My recollection is that bullets tend to move heads
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So what are the physics of JFK's 'random' head snap from right to left shortly after appearing from behind the sign. Approx Z-228 onwards
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1HjDhsk/275-341.gif)
The random head snap coincides with a white object/projectile appearing to strike his jaw-line.
It's not a "head snap". His entire torso moves from the waist up. Why do you people continually call it a "head snap" when it isn't?
JFK's left index finger pointing to the shooter. Clue
That's absurd! He didn't hear the shot that hit him, all he felt was the pain of something happening to him. Furthermore, A reporter at the shooting of George Wallace was shot through the neck, and his hands are basically in the same position as JFK's, in front of--not "clutching"--his throat. His left or right index finger extended. Assassin Bremer was in front of Wallace when he shot him, and so was the reporter, and he wasn't pointing at Bremer.
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I am thinking any photographic evidence that might exist is preferable My recollection is that bullets tend to move heads
They can indeed move heads. The bullet that struck JFK in the head moved his head noticeably forward--it's not an "Optical illusion" as Tink Thompson now says, and all one has to do to see the proof of this is look at a very clear copy of the Orville Nix film, which clearly shows the head moving forward.
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Here's a nice little demonstration of why a bullet from the grassy knoll could not have flung JFK back into his seat. A bullet has just way too little mass to move an adults head so violently back and to the left. A bullet only has enough mass to move an adult head a little bit - which is why Oswalds bullet to JFKs head was only able to move JFKs head forward about 2 inches as seen in the Zapruder film when it is slowed down.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WvqTnqR2kn0
Thumb1:
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And what is the maximum speed a Carcano bullet should push JFK’s head forward? Here are my calculations. Note, I don’t use the more scientific metric units but the physics still work using ‘pounds’ and ‘mph’ (miles per hour).
Mass of the bullet: About 10 grams, or about one third of an ounce, or about one fiftieth (1/50) of a pound.
Speed of the bullet: 1400 mph
Mass of JFK’s head, about 8 pounds.
Speed that the bullet could push JFK’s head:
N (momentum) = M (mass) * V (velocity)
V = N / M
Momentum of bullet = 1/50 * 1400 mph = 28 pounds * mph
Mass of JFK’s head = 7 pounds
Speed of JFK’s head if all the momentum of the bullet is received by the head = 28 pounds * mph / 7 pounds = 4 mph
The actual speed of JFK’s head moving forward between frames 312 and 313? 2 mph
Note, during z312 – z313, only JFK’s head moves forward. The torso does not. This was determined by Physics graduate student William Hoffman working with Josiah Thompson on the book ‘Six Seconds in Dallas’.
This accords well with Larry Sturdivan’s estimate who, based on his work with ballistics, judged that only half the momentum of the bullet would be absorbed by JFK’s head. The bullet fragments that exited from the head would have half the speed of the bullet at the initial strike, about 700 mph and these fragments would dent the windshield frame, crack the windshield and a third fragment slightly wounded James Tague.
A bullet from the front doesn’t work because:
• Unlike the initial forward movement, both the head and the torso moved backwards during z313 – z318. This would require too much momentum from a single bullet, unless a highly implausible anti-tank weapon was used.
• The speed of JFK’s head backwards is not constant but starts slowly, around 0.5 mph and over the next quarter of a second gradually builds up to 1.8 mph. This would be consistent not with one bullet, but a series of bullets, each striking the head, once every 1/18 th of second or once every Zapruder frame, adding more and more momentum with each frame. A single shot from a rifle can be fired accurately, but not a stream of bullets from a machine gun.
• Also, one would expect the head to move backwards with a higher speed at first (with the bullet ‘pushing’ only the head), then at a lower speed (with the bullet ‘pushing’ both the head and the torso). This is the opposite of what is seen in the Zapruder film.
Thumb1:
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A gulp of blood going down JFK's windpipe and him suddenly realizing he can't breath.
Thumb1:
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Glowing white blob/projectile firstly strikes cuff area of JFK's jacket and proceeds to strike JFK in the jawline, velocity of projectile forces JFK's centered head from facing the front to his left. Physics - Newton's second law of motion - in short, an object hit by a projectile will be given a motion that has the same direction as that of the projectile. Debate if the head off JFK moves forwards or back, in z313, whatever, you cannot prove anything with it. Which might explain why it keeps coming around and around. There is physical proof, in 2022, that can back up the claims I am making here.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PfwTVJJG/back-n-forth.gif)
'head snap' is the vernacular of choice for those that say the head moves momentarily forward before blowing backwards. But you can use it only if Steve the drummer in a band says so. I'm just saying this 'head snap' is more conclusive than 313. And, it (z-film) clearly captures a 'projectile' striking the target. What more proof do you need?
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKCL1skZ/completed-dual-overlay.gif)
And, i'll clarify, the version of z-film displaying this projectile striking JFK's jawline is the version extracted by Robin Unger & Martin Heinreichs (sp) from the JFK movie by Oliver Stone.
We got everything, I think we were the first people to have the whole thing, we had it steadied, had every frame: I think the FBI had cut it up - or the police department had cut it up to analyze it. Anyway we restored it, we had the entire thing - Joe Hutshing, video editor for JFK movie
Oh btw, I have some more proof!
Just to add to this mystery. Does the 'projectile' glowing white blob strike the wrist area of JFK's jacket?
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Q6nqC3G/350-sloww.gif)
Is there also a corresponding mark on the sleeve of JFK's jacket in the area where a projectile is seen to strike his right wrist?
Notice in CE393 the jacket worn by JFK has been photographed with the right sleeve (some might say, conveniently) tucked in so that the right cuff of the jacket isn't fully visible? below (I have a higher res version too)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhD0h3NT/CE-393-700res.jpg)
A photo of the jacket was released (years later in the 80s) showing the right cuff. below
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxqQmn4Z/cuts-in-jacket1.gif)
Clearly visible are the cuts in the jacket made by the doctors at Parkland hospital. But the right cuff area of the jacket also appears to have a cut in the fabric. And corresponds with the area to which the projectile is seen in the z-film striking JFK's wrist!
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NzjQgRR/2.jpg)
You can just about see the large blood stains on the cuff, around the area of the mark, then contrasted with the white lining below, where the parkland doctors cut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZfXx66x/jacket-up-close-2.gif)
And I guarantee there are two tiny holes on that right sleeve that would indicate a .22 caliber projectile made those holes. One of entrance, and exit. Most of the witnesses reported a firecracker sound. A smaller caliber weapon.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTWVXJ3x/two-holes.jpg)
If anyone is fortunate to get to see JFK's coat, they will see two small holes. An entrance and an exit on the right cuff area. They are both slightly visible in the gif above. The projectile struck JFK's cuff and pierced a clump off material passing through it and then striking JFK's chin.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J7PxwJqy/mark-on-neck-3.jpg)
The z-frame above us approximately 257, shows blood or redness on JFK's jawline. JFk's autopsy photo also shows a circular indentation in the jawline corresponding to the z-film.
I have tried to get a high-res photo of the JFK jacket at the archives, but have been unsuccessful. If any one can get a close up of the sleeve. This would be very helpful.
If you want to see evidence of JFK's being shot from the front/side/conspiracy, etc, just pester the Kennedy family to see the jacket in person. It's all there!
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The white blob appears to be some type of artifact from stones work on the film to stabilize it. Bullets don't appear as slow moving white blobs.
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There are three frames when the white blob is at its sharpest and clearest. During these three frames the white blob stays in the exact same position within the frame. That can only mean the projectile would be moving down Elm Street in the same direction and speed has the limo. That is completely impossible. If you tried to plot the trajectory it would fail. Wherever that projectile would be coming from it would have to alter its course and travel West with the limo at 8 in per frame for those three frames.
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There are three frames when the white blob is at its sharpest and clearest. During these three frames the white blob stays in the exact same position within the frame. That can only mean the projectile would be moving down Elm Street in the same direction and speed has the limo. That is completely impossible. If you tried to plot the trajectory it would fail. Wherever that projectile would be coming from it would have to alter its course and travel West with the limo at 8 in per frame for those three frames.
That 'blob' could well be an easter egg delivered by Oliver Stone & Co. An attempt to fill in some blanks, of what they think has happened.
And to me, I think they were right. There does appear to be a shot striking JFK from his right side. I'm absolutely convinced JFK's left index finger is pointing at where, the direction, or even who, had already shot him in the throat. And he was shot again. The 'blob' scenario.
I've found the mark on JFK's jacket as a result of the 'blob' appearing to strike JFK's wrist area, firstly.
It would be very interesting to know if Stone's editor for JFK, Joe Hutshing, added this 'blob'. And without Oliver's knowledge. But I thank him anyway, because it's very fascinating to where it's directed me.
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These calculations are very useful. Are you getting them from any particular book or source?
These calculations were made by me, based on various sources on the internet, which cover:
• The approximate velocity of the WCC/MC bullet that struck JFK from a range of 88 yards.
• The approximate weight of the bullet.
• The approximate weight of an adult’s human head.
The best source of basic information, on the movement of JFK’s head and the speed of the limousine is, curiously, Josiah Thompson’s 1966 (?) book “Six Seconds in Dallas”, which covers the study by Physics Graduate student William Hoffman. Thompson’s basic idea in the 1960’s was very sound. Get a Physics Graduate student to study the data from the Zapruder film, to see in the motion of JFK’s head is consistent with a bullet strike from the front. To address two questions:
• Immediate after JFK is struck in the head, does his head and torso move backwards with constant momentum.
• If not, can this discrepancy be accounted for by the acceleration of the limousine, or by some other factor.
A Physics Graduate student is the one you would want for this study. When a scientist wins a Nobel Award in Physics it generally is not based on the data that he or she collected, it is based on the data collected by their Physics Graduate students who are working under them. Physics Graduate students are the best for this sort of work, and not the more senior university professors, because they have a lot more available time to put in the ‘grunt work’ of analyzing data.
William Hoffman’s included data showing, for frames 300 through 330 (as I recall):
• The position of JFK’s head, relative to the limousine.
• The estimated velocity of JFK’s head, relative to the limousine.
• The acceleration of JFK’s head, relative to the limousine.
Because the Zapruder film was shot from the side, all measured motions are in the forward/backward direction. There is no good data on any side-to-side motion.
What Hoffman’s data shows is the head:
• stayed mostly still, from z300 through z312,
• moved forward for just one frame interval at 2 mph from z312 through z313,
• gradually accelerated backward from 0.5 mph to 1.8 mph from z313 through z318.
JFK’s body clearly did not move backwards with constant momentum. Not only did the speed pick up, but the amount of mass which moved greatly increased, from JFK’s head alone moving at first, to both the head and torso moving by z315.
And this constant acceleration could not be accounted for by the acceleration of the limousine. While the limousine did accelerate slightly (likely related to the downward slope of the road) from z305 to z312, the acceleration was about one tenth of the amount required to explain JFK’s head acceleration during z313 through z318.
So, the “JFK’s head was pushed backwards by a bullet from the front” fails the physics test. This constant acceleration can only be accounted for by the Neurological Spasm theory.
What is my expertise on this? Not much, but more than most people. I took physics in my senior year of high school. Where I learned about the conservation of momentum and the conservation of energy. I would be lost except the physics of the JFK head shot involves the most basic concepts on Newtonian Physics.
In any case, Josiah Thompson had a good idea. Get a Physics Graduate student to collect the data so he could publish it. The problem is, that Mr. Thompson refused to accept the data he was presented with. But he still had William Hoffman’s data published because it was a good study that Thompson could not get himself to leave out his book. But he ignored the acceleration problem for many years, then ended up falsely claiming that the Zapruder film is too blurry to make accurate estimates.
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William Hoffman’s work was covered in a previous thread.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2552.msg87042.html#msg87042
My initial post provides a link to Josiah Thompson’s book. Unfortunately, it appears one has to log in to see it. This was not the case a couple of years ago. But for anyone who is curious, I guess there is no problem with signing up so you can log in an see the data. Or just buy a used copy of Thompson’s book, as I did 15 years ago.
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Glowing white blob/projectile firstly strikes cuff area of JFK's jacket and proceeds to strike JFK in the jawline, velocity of projectile forces JFK's centered head from facing the front to his left. Physics - Newton's second law of motion - in short, an object hit by a projectile will be given a motion that has the same direction as that of the projectile. Debate if the head off JFK moves forwards or back, in z313, whatever, you cannot prove anything with it. Which might explain why it keeps coming around and around. There is physical proof, in 2022, that can back up the claims I am making here.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PfwTVJJG/back-n-forth.gif)
'head snap' is the vernacular of choice for those that say the head moves momentarily forward before blowing backwards. But you can use it only if Steve the drummer in a band says so. I'm just saying this 'head snap' is more conclusive than 313. And, it (z-film) clearly captures a 'projectile' striking the target. What more proof do you need?
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKCL1skZ/completed-dual-overlay.gif)
And, i'll clarify, the version of z-film displaying this projectile striking JFK's jawline is the version extracted by Robin Unger & Martin Heinreichs (sp) from the JFK movie by Oliver Stone.
Oh btw, I have some more proof!
Just to add to this mystery. Does the 'projectile' glowing white blob strike the wrist area of JFK's jacket?
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Q6nqC3G/350-sloww.gif)
Is there also a corresponding mark on the sleeve of JFK's jacket in the area where a projectile is seen to strike his right wrist?
Notice in CE393 the jacket worn by JFK has been photographed with the right sleeve (some might say, conveniently) tucked in so that the right cuff of the jacket isn't fully visible? below (I have a higher res version too)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhD0h3NT/CE-393-700res.jpg)
A photo of the jacket was released (years later in the 80s) showing the right cuff. below
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxqQmn4Z/cuts-in-jacket1.gif)
Clearly visible are the cuts in the jacket made by the doctors at Parkland hospital. But the right cuff area of the jacket also appears to have a cut in the fabric. And corresponds with the area to which the projectile is seen in the z-film striking JFK's wrist!
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NzjQgRR/2.jpg)
You can just about see the large blood stains on the cuff, around the area of the mark, then contrasted with the white lining below, where the parkland doctors cut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZfXx66x/jacket-up-close-2.gif)
And I guarantee there are two tiny holes on that right sleeve that would indicate a .22 caliber projectile made those holes. One of entrance, and exit. Most of the witnesses reported a firecracker sound. A smaller caliber weapon.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTWVXJ3x/two-holes.jpg)
If anyone is fortunate to get to see JFK's coat, they will see two small holes. An entrance and an exit on the right cuff area. They are both slightly visible in the gif above. The projectile struck JFK's cuff and pierced a clump off material passing through it and then striking JFK's chin.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J7PxwJqy/mark-on-neck-3.jpg)
The z-frame above us approximately 257, shows blood or redness on JFK's jawline. JFk's autopsy photo also shows a circular indentation in the jawline corresponding to the z-film.
I have tried to get a high-res photo of the JFK jacket at the archives, but have been unsuccessful. If any one can get a close up of the sleeve. This would be very helpful.
If you want to see evidence of JFK's being shot from the front/side/conspiracy, etc, just pester the Kennedy family to see the jacket in person. It's all there!
Robert Reeves,
You are using an inferior copy of the Zapruder film, and I would really like to know why that is, when there are far superior copies out there, like the MPI copy, the National Archives copy, and singular frames--all on the Internet.
As far as JFK's suit coat and what is on the sleeve...that is a large piece of brain matter. Far superior copies of this photograph are also available. all over the internet. It is brownish red in color, and there are also smaller pieces of brain matter on the jacket as well. Those are not "holes".
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(https://i.imgur.com/cXsOZqn.jpg)
The piece of brain matter on JFK's suit coat cuff that Robert Reeves claims is "Two tiny holes".
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(https://i.imgur.com/XeUg7YR.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/cXsOZqn.jpg)
The piece of brain matter on JFK's suit coat cuff that Robert Reeves claims is "Two tiny holes".
Don't twist the words I've already used in this thread. Don't be a weasel, making yourself look petty.
I am quite clear what I believe that mark on JFK's jacket is. It appears to be an abrasion to the fabric. Exposing the jacket's white inner lining - underneath - which is stained with blood. And this can be seen in the photo you've posted. The red/brown areas are blood soaked. I've posted all this, and you haven't done anything to disprove what I said, other than tried to take once piece, one little fraction of the entire post, and twist it, to use in your own narrative.
The interesting thing that you will not address why the mark on the jacket of JFK is consistent with the 'blob' or 'projectiles' path, as shown in the Zapruder film. FROM RIGHT TO LEFT moving across the coat sleeve.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PfwTVJJG/back-n-forth.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NzjQgRR/2.jpg)
Even the most irrational lone shooter believer must be curious as why there appears to be a version of the Zapruder film that shows a glowing projectile striking, firstly, JFK's wrist, and secondly JFK's chin, appearing, to anyone with an open mind ... to be the cause of JFK's head movement to the right. I haven't faked this scenario. Either someone on Stone's editing team has added this projectile, or it's there originally. And more importantly, why isn't this projectile glowing thing in any other versions of the Zapruder film? According to Joe Hutshing they obtained a copy of the FBI's version of the Zapruder film. So how your assertions be true that this is an inferior copy of the z-film?
The mark on the sleeve is just a very very interesting coincidence of which you or I cannot prove either way. I have requested from the archives a high res photo of the mark on the sleeve. They will not provide a close up of the area.
See, the problem is Steve, you are just trying too hard to disprove anyone messing with the original verdict, again. You are just being unreasonable and actually not allowing yourself to be open minded.
When the jacket photo is subjected to line detection, embossing filters we can only see
1. cuts made by the parkland doctors in the jacket
2. this unexplained mark on the right sleeve.
It doesn't prove either way who is right, but this can easily be resolved if someone is ever to see the jacket in person and inspect the cloth for abrasions/tears/holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxqQmn4Z/cuts-in-jacket1.gif)
You're shooting the messenger instead of just trying to find the facts.
I could go on more about this, the suspicious covering of the right sleeve for the Warren Commission exhibit, for instance. This only becomes suspicious when the later 80s photo released by the archives reveals what not shown. This mark on the right sleeve of JFK appears to have been purposely hidden.
Why would this jacket be positioned in such a way to not show the mark on the right sleeve?
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhD0h3NT/CE-393-700res.jpg)
Does the Zapruder film show the tear on the right sleeve before the fatal head shot? if this the white underlining of the jacket showing?
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRt58j9G/Zap-frame-252.jpg)
or?
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZWd6Z3k/combined.jpg)
While we're at z-253, what is the mark on JFK's jaw, corresponding to the area seen where the projectile strikes JFK?
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8FHDhm9/markon-jaw2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xZG3kmL/compressed-dual-clip.gif)
Don't shoot the messenger.
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Mr. Reeves, I did address your nonsense! This "white blob", as you call it, doesn't appear in the MPI copy of the film which happens to be the original film, not a multi generation copy like you are using. As I said earlier, you are using an inferior copy of the film! The "white blob" is nothing but an artifact in the film you're using. And the pink spot of head matter on JFK's suit coat cuff didn't get there until the fatal bullet struck him, so *YOU* "stop twisting" things around to try creating a new theory. And the whitish object that you are pointing arrows to on JFK's suit coat cuff in later Z film frames is nothing but the sunlight reflecting off suit coat sleeve cuff buttons.
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JFK’s body clearly did not move backwards with constant momentum. Not only did the speed pick up, but the amount of mass which moved greatly increased, from JFK’s head alone moving at first, to both the head and torso moving by z315.
You have to take into account gravity and recoil from the head explosion. It is complicated because JFK was leaning forward when hit so the impulse from the head explosion has to push his body up initially against gravity and then gravity takes over and he falls.
And this constant acceleration could not be accounted for by the acceleration of the limousine. While the limousine did accelerate slightly (likely related to the downward slope of the road) from z305 to z312, the acceleration was about one tenth of the amount required to explain JFK’s head acceleration during z313 through z318.
So, the “JFK’s head was pushed backwards by a bullet from the front” fails the physics test. This constant acceleration can only be accounted for by the Neurological Spasm theory.
There is no evidence that a person shot in the head generates muscle spasms. There are many films of people being shot in the back of the head. They just collapse and fall.
However, there is evidence of matter exploding out of the right front of JFK's head likely carrying momentum much greater than the forward momentum of the bullet. The recoil from this would be an equal and opposite impulse to the head pushing it back and to the left.
What is my expertise on this? Not much, but more than most people. I took physics in my senior year of high school. Where I learned about the conservation of momentum and the conservation of energy. I would be lost except the physics of the JFK head shot involves the most basic concepts on Newtonian Physics.
one cannot ignore the explosion of the head. The momentum of the matter exploding in a generally forward direction from the front right side of his head can be, and likely is, much more than the forward momentum imparted by the bullet.
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However, there is evidence of matter exploding out of the right front of JFK's head likely carrying momentum much greater than the forward momentum of the bullet. The recoil from this would be an equal and opposite impulse to the head pushing it back and to the left.
one cannot ignore the explosion of the head. The momentum of the matter exploding in a generally forward direction from the front right side of his head can be, and likely is, much more than the forward momentum imparted by the bullet.
The explosion isn't on the right front of the head, rather, its the top of the head that was blown off.
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The explosion isn't on the right front of the head, rather, its the top of the head that was blown off.
Matter exploded out of the right side of the upper head as he was leaning forward and turned somewhat to his left. What determines the direction of the recoil impulse is the direction the exploding matter.
We don't have to guess about that. We can see it.
The matter exploded outward from the ruptured head carrying momentum in the general forward direction relative to the car and somewhat to the right of the direction JFK was facing. The head necessarily received an equal impulse in the opposite direction. So the momentum imparted to the head from the explosion was backward relative to the car which was back and a bit to the left of the direction that is 180 degrees to the direction JFK had been facing.
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By the way, the proof that a bullet from the back can cause rearward motion is seen in the turkey shoot video that Chad Zimmerman did in 2008. He hung a freshly killed turkey from a frame and strapped pork ribs to the back. He fired his 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano using WC 6.5 mm copper jacketed bullet from the left side into the back (left side) of the turkey. The bullet struck and passed through one of the ribs and its subsequent passage through the turkey caused an explosive exit wound on the right side. The turkey moved backwards, toward the rifle:
A copy can be downloaded here (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/turkeyribshot1a.mpg).
Here it is slowed down from 30 fps to 2 fps on a continuous loop with a 2 second pause:
(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Chad_Zimmerman_turkeyshoot.gif)
Having the bullet strike a pork rib bone is somewhat analogous to a bullet striking the skull. This will flatten the bullet so that it then plows through the ensuing matter building up pressure in front of the bullet until the pressure exceeds the ability of the target to withstand. The result is an explosion of matter from the target outward from the ruptured part of the target.
There are obvious differences between shooting a turkey and a live human head. The pressure inside the rigid skull will be higher so the explosive impulse ejecting the matter and the resulting recoil to the head will be higher. The mass of the turkey is also greater than that of a human head so the recoil speed would be less with the turkey for the same amount of forward momentum of matter ejected.
But the main point is that the direction the target moves is back toward the shooter. And it is rapid and observable.
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You have to take into account gravity and recoil from the head explosion. It is complicated because JFK was leaning forward when hit so the impulse from the head explosion has to push his body up initially against gravity and then gravity takes over and he falls.
There is no evidence that a person shot in the head generates muscle spasms. There are many films of people being shot in the back of the head. They just collapse and fall.
However, there is evidence of matter exploding out of the right front of JFK's head likely carrying momentum much greater than the forward momentum of the bullet. The recoil from this would be an equal and opposite impulse to the head pushing it back and to the left.
one cannot ignore the explosion of the head. The momentum of the matter exploding in a generally forward direction from the front right side of his head can be, and likely is, much more than the forward momentum imparted by the bullet.
Let’s take one point at a time.
You have to take into account gravity …
JFK was sitting pretty much upright, with a slight lean forward. During the early part of the movement, z313-z316, the movement was even slightly “uphill”. But it never mattered. The acceleration was constant. Even when he did start to tilt backwards, the acceleration he would get from gravity was a fraction of the acceleration
Using physics graduate student Michael Hoffman’s calculations, the acceleration of the head during z314-z315. z315-z316 and z316-z317 was 0.26 G’s, 0.26 G’s and 0.17 G’s. Note, I converted Hoffman’s numbers from feet per second squared to G’s. If the head and body were reclined 90 degrees, lying flat on his back, and JFK was free to continue to fall, gravity could accelerate JFK’s head at 1.0 G’s.
My understanding of classical physics is pretty rudimentary. But acceleration of a simple inverted pendulum, shown at:
http://pmaweb.caltech.edu/~phy003/handout_source/Inverted_Pendulum/InvertedPendulum.pdf
The acceleration would be 1 G times the sin of the angle, 1 G * sin (a) where the angle is 0 degrees if JFK is sitting bolt upright, 45 degrees if he is greatly reclined backwards and 90 degrees if he is lying on his back.
Yes, I know, this is not a simple inverted pendulum, because JFK’s torso did not contain negligible mass. Still, I think this what I would expect, an acceleration proportional to the sin of the angle.
Acceleration due to gravity alone would not reach 0.26 Gs until JFK was reclined back at 15 degrees. The sign of 15 degrees is roughly 0.26. Looking even at z317, which is getting pretty late in the acceleration, he still seems to be sitting mostly upright. He may be leaning a significant amount to his left. It’s hard to tell. But this would not affect his acceleration backwards.
It is clear to me that the acceleration of JFK’s head backwards from z313 through z317 was not caused by gravity. Nor was it caused by the acceleration of the car, which was slightly accelerating, but only providing less than a tenth of the acceleration needed to account for JFK’s motion.
No, the acceleration was caused by something else. If not by a neurological spasm than there is simply no other explanation for this constant acceleration. Unless one goes with a stream of bullet scenario, where with each Zapruder frame, another bullet struck from the front adding more momentum to JFK’s body moving backwards.
You have to take into … and recoil from the head explosion
The recoil from the head explosion. By which, I believe, you mean the ‘Jet Effect’. But like the ‘bullet from the front’ scenario, this would give a one-time impulse pushing the head backwards. This should not result in a constant acceleration of the head backwards, unless material was spewing out of JFK’s head, carrying a good deal of momentum forward, for over a quarter of a second.
There is no evidence that a person shot in the head generates muscle spasms. There are many films of people being shot in the back of the head. They just collapse and fall.
And these are all people shot in the head with a rifle bullet? And in all cases, the bullet went through near the center of the brain? Was this established in all cases with an autopsy?
In a sense, this cannot be demonstrated. One cannot run an experiment by shooting a person in the head with a rifle bullet. If one does, by accident, have such a video, it cannot be shown because it is an affront to human dignity. I understand that a reporter was murdered by a soldier with a shot through the brain using an assault rifle and it seems to show a neurological spasm, but this cannot be shown, and I have never seen it, because it would be an affront to the dignity of his family. Showing video of JFK’s murder seems to be the only exception.
For those who argue against the Neurological spasm, they need the following guidelines to be strictly adhered to.
1. Only video of people is to be used as evidence.
2. Video of animals being shot through the brain are to be ignored, because, for all we know, for unknown reasons, all animals would react one way but people would react another. Even demonstrating this for a dozen different species, some of them primates, would make no difference.
3. Without any proof from a video of a human being shot, the default assumption is that the Neurological Spasm does not occur in humans, until it is proven that it does.
These guidelines put LNers, like myself in an impossible Catch-22 position. We can’t run an experiment but if such a video falls into our laps, we can’t use it because it would be an affront to human dignity. And we would likely be sued by the victim’s family.
Let me propose a different set of guidelines:
1. Only video of people is to be used as evidence.
2. Video of animals being shot through the brain are to be ignored, because, for all we know, for unknown reasons, all animals would react one way but people would react another. Even demonstrating this for a dozen different species, some of them primates, would make no difference.
3. Without any proof from a video of a human being shot, the default assumption is that the Neurological Spasm does occur in humans, until it is proven that it does not.
I am using the same guidelines as before except I have reversed Guideline 3. If this is done, now CTers are in a Catch-22. Even if the Neurological Spasm were a myth, for both animals and humans, they could not prove this. All experiments on animals are considered irrelevant. All video of humans being shot in the head with a rifle bullet, causing their brains to explode out of their head, but no Neurological Spasm being observed, could not be used to disprove the Theory of Neurological Spasm, because the showing of such video would be an affront to human dignity, and might get them sued by the victim’s family.
Instead, let me propose a more reasonable set of guidelines.
1. If we have good videos, of people being shot, with rifle bullets, causing their brains to explode out of their heads, the results from these videos and these videos only should determine if the Neurological Spasm occurs in humans or not. Video of animals being shot would be considered irrelevant.
2. If we cannot use Guideline 1, because of human dignity considerations, fear of lawsuits, or for other reasons, then we must rely of video of animals being shot in the head.
If the Neurological Spasm is seen in animals, then it must be considered to be good evidence that it would also occur in humans.
No, it’s not absolute proof. We don’t get absolute proof in this world for anything. But it should be considered good evidence
Under this last set of guidelines, which is fair to both sides, and does not put either side into an impossible Catch-22 situation, it is clear that Neurological Spasm in humans is quite possible. And, since this is the only possible explanation for the acceleration of JFK’s backwards, it must be considered the most probable explanation as to why JFK’s head moved and accelerated backwards continuously during z313-z318.
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... it is clear that Neurological Spasm in humans is quite possible. And, since this is the only possible explanation for the acceleration of JFK’s backwards, it must be considered the most probable explanation as to why JFK’s head moved and accelerated backwards continuously...
Stated like the preceding part of the post proved something while admitting that it cannot demonstratively be proven.
It is stated that something is possible and then concluding it is the only possibility.
Other possibilities always remain. Perhaps JFK was hit simultaneously with two shots thereby causing a violent reaction. Although this also can no longer be a proven probability.
However combined with ear witness statements and an assumption that there could have been at least two shooters it cannot be eliminated as a possibility.
Finally, even if there was a spasmodic reaction to a single shot as theorized ...it doesn't prove who did the shooting.
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Stated like the preceding part of the post proved something while admitting that it cannot demonstratively be proven.
It is stated that something is possible and then concluding it is the only possibility.
Other possibilities always remain. Perhaps JFK was hit simultaneously with two shots thereby causing a violent reaction. Although this also can no longer be a proven probability.
However combined with ear witness statements and an assumption that there could have been at least two shooters it cannot be eliminated as a possibility.
Finally, even if there was a spasmodic reaction to a single shot as theorized ...it doesn't prove who did the shooting.
quote author=Martin Hinrichs
"What we see here is in my eyes clearly the impact-moment of the shot which hits Kennedy in his back."
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/.highres/backhit.gif)
"Credit Giuseppe Sabatino"
= 2nd shooter IMO
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quote author=Martin Hinrichs
"What we see here is in my eyes clearly the impact-moment of the shot which hits Kennedy in his back."
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/.highres/backhit.gif)
"Credit Giuseppe Sabatino"
= 2nd shooter IMO
The shot through JFK has already occurred before z228.
That's why his fists are already up near his throat.
IMO, the movement forward is part of his reaction to a shot that has already passed through him.
The main reason for thinking this is that JBC is already reacting violently by this point.
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Interesting.
Two shots at approximately z228. One from the front right, and one from the rear. Synced
fractionally first shot in the back. below
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/.highres/backhit.gif)
and the shot from the front right hitting the chin, in this instance.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpYDBQR6/completed-dual-overlay.gif)
And Bingo! same sequence of events at z228 are repeated in z313. A shot hitting JFK in the back (oh the head) from the rear, simultaneously (as witnesses described hearing) ... a kill shot from the front right.
(https://i.postimg.cc/76X8Q6pw/313image.gif)
*edited typo
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The shot through JFK has already occurred before z228.
That's why his fists are already up near his throat.
IMO, the movement forward is part of his reaction to a shot that has already passed through him.
The main reason for thinking this is that JBC is already reacting violently by this point.
IMO The shot before 228 hit JFK in the throat from the front. Just as the Drs at Parkland, who saw the wound before the tracheotomy, said. JFK's movenment from Z228 to Z236, a third of a second, is from a shot from behind.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/.highres/backhit.gif)
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The shot through JFK has already occurred before z228.
That's why his fists are already up near his throat.
IMO, the movement forward is part of his reaction to a shot that has already passed through him.
The main reason for thinking this is that JBC is already reacting violently by this point.
Hi Dan, Over the years, many people have made the mistake of saying that JFK "clutched his throat", or that his hands went for his throat.
If you look closely, JFK's right hand is cupped over his mouth when it reaches its highest point, and his left hand shows his index finger extended and partially curled, while the remaining 3 fingers are curled. His thumb cannot be seen. The left hand rises up against the underside of his right hand. It looks to me as is JFK sudden slightly rising up and then sudden motion back down is the result of gagging, after the bullet passed through his throat. Thus, his hand cupped over his mouth. As he turns his head to his left, his right hand remains in position and is level at one point with his cheek until he brings it down once Mrs Kennedy takes hold of his left arm. The truth is, is that his hands never went near his throat.
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Interesting.
Two shots at approximately z228. One from the front right, and one from the rear. Synced
fractionally first shot in the back. below
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/.highres/backhit.gif)
and the shot from the front right hitting the chin, in this instance.
Oh, so now you've personally moved the exit wound in the throat up to the chin. Aren't you one of those who are always citing the doctors at Parkland describing the wounds as accurate? IF so, why didn't anyone mention a wound on the chin? Where do you come up with such things?
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpYDBQR6/completed-dual-overlay.gif)
And Bingo! same sequence of events at z228 are repeated in z313. A shot hitting JFK in the back and shot from the rear, simultaneously ... a kill shot from the front right.
(https://i.postimg.cc/76X8Q6pw/313image.gif)
Really? How did a shot from the front throw head matter all over the entire inside of the limousine, the windshield, the hood of the car, the side rails, the inside and outside of the right sun visor, Greer, Kellerman, and the Connally's? And why do we see the top of JFK's head fly through the air, only to land in pieces several yards ahead of where the limousine was positioned at the time of the fatal shot, only to be discovered by three different people, i.e. David Burros, and Seymour Weitzman who found skull fragments the day of the assassination, and Billy Harper, who found a fragment on the day after? All of this points to the fatal shot having come from behind the president, and above and the trajectory of the head matter following the trajectory of the bullet-save for the minute spray that Hargis and Martin drove through and landed on them--not to mention can clearly be seen in the Zapruder film drifting to the rear with the breeze.
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Steve, I agree with you that the "clutching the throat" after the ~z222 strike is probably not the whole story (and may not even be the main part of the story).
Two things have bothered me around the grasping for the throat or choking move as a reaction explanation.
The first is that a major contraction of the deltoids to raise the elbows up so high, for me that seems to actually put the hands a little too high to readily come back down and access the throat/neck, the chin become a blocking agent and would seem to hinder a quick natural throat protection response. Having the elbows down low and with just flexing the forearms up to facilitate grabbing the throat seems more efficient natural emergency response there. That is one reason I don't like the throat grasping explanation.
The second is that I don't recall seeing any other really rigorous medical explanation for those reactions. They are so unusual, I would have expected to find more on what could cause it. I can't recall if I have linked this before, but I went looking in neurological resources and journals for possibly a more detailed explanation. Spastic Paralysis seemed to describe the injury caused by associated nerve trauma, and if the reactions can be quick to engage, JFK's condition on film looks to have most all the typical symptoms seen in the literature.
https://sites.google.com/view/spastic-paralysis/home
Sometime maybe I could find a top end neurologist to share this with and get comments on if this, vs. choking, is a more likely response to what we see on film.
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Could an alternative to the jet effect at Z313 be the piece of bone that shoots up at a 45 degree angle from the top of JFKs head? Would an opposite and equal reaction to this bone rocketing off from JFKs head cause JFKs head to be forced downwards, and with no where to go would cause JFKs head and body to subsequently spring "back and to the left".
Think about it. If you compress a spring, it will spring back and upwards away from where you applied the force downwards.
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For one frame Most others in the limo are moving forward at that time
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. . .
The second is that I don't recall seeing any other really rigorous medical explanation for those reactions. They are so unusual, I would have expected to find more on what could cause it. I can't recall if I have linked this before, but I went looking in neurological resources and journals for possibly a more detailed explanation. Spastic Paralysis seemed to describe the injury caused by associated nerve trauma, and if the reactions can be quick to engage, JFK's condition on film looks to have most all the typical symptoms seen in the literature.
. . .
JFK’s reaction to the neck wound is likely what is often called a ‘Thorburn reaction’, as theorized by Dr. John Lattimer. A doctor Thorburn described a similar response to a neck injury to a patient back in the nineteenth century. It seems that damage to a certain area of the spinal cord in the neck can trigger this response.
The two arguments that CTers used to dismiss this theory, are weak.
1. Dr. Lattimer was a urologist.
This is true. But what is a urologist? A urologist is a medical doctor, who specializes in urology. But he is still a medical doctor who has received all the basic medical training, including the treatment of all sorts of wounds. That is why the U. S. Army drafted him in World War II to serve as a medical doctor with the Third Army in Europe. It wasn’t because they expected the largely youthful army to experience a lot of urinary problems. It was that he, a medical doctor, could treat battle wounds, like those caused by bullets. He was chosen for his expertise with wounds, which all medical doctors have.
In addition to his medical training, Dr. Lattimer gained a lot of real-world experience treating battle wounds, including rifle bullet wounds, during 1944-1945. More than any current doctor would likely receive. So, he was a strong candidate to evaluate JFKs wounds, which is why the Kennedy family selected him to look into it.
2. The two cases, the nineteenth century injury and JFK’s injury have to have two separate causes, because the nineteenth century response took several days to take effect, while JFKs was almost instantly.
However, the nineteenth century damage to the spinal cord was caused by an infection, not a bullet. As I recall, a heavy weight struck the back of the neck of the victim. This did not cause any immediate damage to the spinal cord. But it did cause an infection to set in, which within a few days did reach the spinal cord and damage it, resulting in the victim raising his arms and holding them in a similar position of JFK’s. Except this patient was lying on his back in bed while JFK was sitting up.
Naturally, if in one case the damage is caused by a bacterial infection, the reaction could take a few days to set in. While in another case, if the damage is caused by a bullet, the reaction would be immediate.
Dr. John Lattimer stressed that this diagnosis is not based on his examination of the patient (naturally) but is based on the location of the bullet path near a certain section of the spinal cord and his study of the Zapruder film. Coming up with an accurate diagnosis is hard enough when one has a patient one can examine in person. It is even more challenging when it is instead based on looking at a film of the patient. Still, this is about as good a professional guess as we are ever likely to end up with.
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As a disclaimer, I am not an expert in neurology and regarding the Thorburn position, I haven’t seen enough detail on its neurology to comment.
However when looking at the literature and causes/symptoms of spastic paralysis, Thorburn didn’t seem to come up in what I reviewed.
Having said that, I did see references where spastic paralysis could manifest itself rapidly as in a reflex, but also could develop over time (even weeks).
So, I am beginning to think Thorburn could be subset of Spastic Paralysis, and the original Thorburn case may refer to a slower onset version of Spastic Paralysis.
Here are a couple of references on Spastic Paralysis that describe onset times:
This reference mentions the occurrence of quick, reflex onset.
What is spasticity? (from https://msktc.org/sci/factsheets/Spasticity)
Spasticity is the uncontrolled tightening or contracting of the muscles that is common in individuals with spinal cord injuries. About 65%–78% of the SCI population have some amount of spasticity, and it is more common in cervical (neck) than thoracic (chest) and lumbar (lower back) injuries.
Symptoms and severity of spasticity vary from person to person and can include:
• Sudden, involuntary flexing (bending) or extending (straightening) of a limb, or jerking of muscle groups such as in the trunk (chest, back, and abdomen), bladder, or rectum.
After a spinal cord injury, the normal flow of signals is disrupted, and the message does not reach the brain. Instead, the signals are sent back to the motor cells in the spinal cord and cause a reflex muscle spasm. This can result in a twitch, jerk or stiffening of the muscle.
This reference mentions a slower onset, even some with an initial flaccid paralysis. (from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2860542/)
More than 80% of people with Spinal Cord Injury (SCI) have spasticity, and many have greater disability from it. Spasticity develops gradually over several months after injury. Immediately following SCI, the spinal cord becomes areflexic (spinal shock), a period characterized by loss of tendon reflexes below the level of the lesion, muscle paralysis, and flaccid muscle tone.
Given what is seen in the Zapruder film, it does not look like a version of extended onset of spasticity with initial flaccid muscle tone, but rather the version with sudden stiffening of muscle tone.
This all could be semantical, as both terms refer to a neuromuscular response to spinal cord trauma, and it just boils down to what is the best name to associate with the reactions that were seen in that timeframe shortly after being struck. As spastic paralysis seems to be more encompassing regarding onset time, that is what I use.
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Let’s take one point at a time.
JFK was sitting pretty much upright, with a slight lean forward. During the early part of the movement, z313-z316, the movement was even slightly “uphill”. But it never mattered. The acceleration was constant. Even when he did start to tilt backwards, the acceleration he would get from gravity was a fraction of the acceleration
Using physics graduate student Michael Hoffman’s calculations, the acceleration of the head during z314-z315. z315-z316 and z316-z317 was 0.26 G’s, 0.26 G’s and 0.17 G’s. Note, I converted Hoffman’s numbers from feet per second squared to G’s. If the head and body were reclined 90 degrees, lying flat on his back, and JFK was free to continue to fall, gravity could accelerate JFK’s head at 1.0 G’s.
1. First of all, you are assuming first that there is sufficient information in the zfilm for anyone to accurately determine the acceleration over the course of 5 frames. There isn't.
The zfilm is not continuous. It represents a view taken for a 1/40th of a second (Zavada Report, Study 4, p. 16) or 25ms out of a total of 55 ms. between consecutive frames.
What we see up to the end of the exposure of z312 is no forward motion of the head or body. What we see in z313 is that the head has moved forward a small but perceptible amount. And we also see that the head has already exploded and there is a cloud of blood spray and some spray trails suspended in the air. So by the time z313 is exposed, the head has received a variety of forward and backward impulses separated in time as the bullet struck the head, then transited the head and then as the exit rupture forcefully caused an ejection of matter out of the head.
The net result of these impulses by the end of the exposure of z313 is a movement of the head slightly forward. But a single exposure does not tell us how it is moving at that point. It could be moving backward, and in my view it must be (see point 5., below). To determine the acceleration between z313 and z314 (change in speed/time between 314 and 313) you need to know what its motion after exposure of z313 was. But that is a guess because that depends on the moment that the bullet struck the head and the zfilm does not tell us that. We also have a blur which makes it difficult to determine accurately the change in position of the head between those two frames.
Similarly, you cannot determine the acceleration between z314 and z315 (change in speed/time) unless you can determine its speed at the end of exposure of z314, which we cannot do.
So in order to analyse what is happening in z313 and after we need to know exactly when the bullet struck the back of JFK's skull. The zfilm does not tell us that.
2. The head is not the only thing that you need to take into account. The head is connected to the upper body which is connected to the lower body which is sitting on a seat. You need to examine the motion of the centre of mass but that is difficult because it is constantly changing.
3. The body is subject to gravity which also has to be taken into account. As the body is leaning forward initially, the rearward force on the head from the head explosion causes rearward momentum that causes the head and body to move back against gravity initially and then with gravity.
4. The neuromuscular mechanism is not clear. If the rearward motion of the body was the result of a neuromuscular response, it had to start within a frame of the bullet striking JFK's head and had to involve the contraction of muscles that would push on something in the car to drive the body rearward. That means the legs would have to be involved and the only thing they could push on would be the seat and the floor. But the legs are bent because he is sitting. It is difficult to understand how that could result in such sudden motion of the body. The force would have to be enormous to move the body that quickly.
5. In any event, the rearward momentum imparted by the head explosion cannot be ignored even if you think there is a remarkably fast neuromuscular response.
The bullet was travelling at about 1900 fps or 580 m/sec when it struck the back of the head and the path through the head was about 8 inches or 20 cm. We can see that the time for the passage of the bullet through the head is going to be on the order of a millisecond.
So for the transfer of bullet momentum to the head:
- forward bullet momentum = 6.1 kg m/sec [(2000 fps = 610 m/sec) x .01 kg]
- mass of head 5 kg.
- assume all forward momentum transferred to head
So the speed of head from bullet impact but prior to head explosion: v=p/m=6.1/5 = 1.22 m/sec forward. That is the maximum possible speed as it assumes 100% of the bullet momentum is transferred to the head.
For the rearward momentum imparted to the head due to the head explosion:
Let's assume that the matter exploding from the head consisted of 1/4 to 1/2 of a kilogram and lets suppose that it carried 3/4 of the bullet energy (ie. .75 x 1860 Joules=1395 J.).
The total momentum of the ejected matter is related to its energy (KE=1395 Joules): by KE=mv^2/2 = p^2/2m where p is the momentum, m is the mass of the ejected matter and KE is the kinetic energy. So p = (2mKE)^1/2 = (2 x (.25 to .5) x 1395)^1/2 = 26 to 37 kg m/sec. Since the explosion is in a semi-circle around the head, not all of this momentum is completely forward. Let's say a minimum of 50% and a maximum of 70% is net forward: 13 kg m/sec (if .25 kg ejected at 50% forward) to 26 kg m/sec (if .5 kg ejected at 70% forward)
So rearward impulse to the head would be, roughly, 13 to 26 kg m/sec.
This means the head (now about 4.5 to 4.75 kg) recoils with a minimum rearward speed of: 13/4.75 kg = 2.75 m/sec. up to 26/4.5= 5.75 m/sec.
So the initial rearward speed of the head is: 2.75 to 5.75 m/sec, much more than the maximum 1.22 m/sec forward speed from the bullet momentum. So it is moving backward at a minimum of 2.75-1.22= 1.5 m/sec. And it acquires that speed in the time it takes for the head explosion to occur. That has already happened by the time z313 was exposed so in z313 the head is already moving backward a minimum of 1.5 m/sec. due to the head explosion. That would seem to me to account for all the motion seen after z313.
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2. The two cases, the nineteenth century injury and JFK’s injury have to have two separate causes, because the nineteenth century response took several days to take effect, while JFKs was almost instantly.
However, the nineteenth century damage to the spinal cord was caused by an infection, not a bullet. As I recall, a heavy weight struck the back of the neck of the victim. This did not cause any immediate damage to the spinal cord. But it did cause an infection to set in, which within a few days did reach the spinal cord and damage it, resulting in the victim raising his arms and holding them in a similar position of JFK’s. Except this patient was lying on his back in bed while JFK was sitting up.
Naturally, if in one case the damage is caused by a bacterial infection, the reaction could take a few days to set in. While in another case, if the damage is caused by a bullet, the reaction would be immediate.
Dr. John Lattimer stressed that this diagnosis is not based on his examination of the patient (naturally) but is based on the location of the bullet path near a certain section of the spinal cord and his study of the Zapruder film. Coming up with an accurate diagnosis is hard enough when one has a patient one can examine in person. It is even more challenging when it is instead based on looking at a film of the patient. Still, this is about as good a professional guess as we are ever likely to end up with.
I am not sure where you get this. The original report (Brain: Vol 9, 1887 (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Thorburn_Brain_Vol9_1887.pdf)) states that the man, L.F., fell while on a ladder. His head fell backward while his feet were trapped in the rungs. It describes the immediate effect which indicates that his spinal cord was immediately damaged by the fall:
- "He at once became unconscious, remaining so for several hours. On regaining consciousness he found that his legs were quite immovable and his arms partially so, while there was numbness in the lower portion of his body, and insensitiveness to external impressions, coupled with a dull aching pain. There was also great pain in the head, neck, and shoulders. The urine had to be drawn off twice daily. He remained in this condition until his admission to the Infirmary on the fourth day after the accident.
When admitted he was found to present complete paralysis of the lower limbs, and of the abdominal and thoracic muscles. All the muscles of the arms were paralysed, with the exception of the biceps, brachialis anticus, supinator longus and deltoid, the consequence being that the elbows were flexed, the shoulder abducted and rotated outwards, and the hands and arms fell into the position indicated in the annexed engraving (Fig. 1, p. 512), taken from a photograph...
The post-mortem confirmed that there was physical damage to the spinal cord due to the spinal fractures:
- "...At the post-mortem examination was found depression of the 6th cervical spine and laminae; the disc between the 5th and 6th vertebrae was broken across, the upper part of the body of the 6th vertebra being tilted backwards. The laminae wore uninjured, but the right superior articular process of the 5th vertebra, and the corresponding transverse process of the 6th were broken off. At this point the cord was compressed, being flattened for a distance of about 1/4 inch."
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IMO The shot before 228 hit JFK in the throat from the front. Just as the Drs at Parkland, who saw the wound before the tracheotomy, said. JFK's movenment from Z228 to Z236, a third of a second, is from a shot from behind.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/.highres/backhit.gif)
The incredibly rapid movement of JFK's arms upwards, the extreme nature of the posture with the elbows extended upwards to, what appears to be, their maximum extent and the spasticity evident in his hand positions, all indicate damage to the nerves of the Brachial Plexus, most probably due to the transit of the bullet though his body and accompanying cavitation.
This movement begins at z225 which means the bullet that entered his back has already been fired (at z222/223). The movement you are focusing on is most likely JFK's body stiffening as part of the reflex reaction caused by by damage to the nerves of the Brachial Plexus.
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The incredibly rapid movement of JFK's arms upwards, the extreme nature of the posture with the elbows extended upwards to, what appears to be, their maximum extent and the spasticity evident in his hand positions, all indicate damage to the nerves of the Brachial Plexus, most probably due to the transit of the bullet though his body and accompanying cavitation.
This movement begins at z225 which means the bullet that entered his back has already been fired (at z222/223). The movement you are focusing on is most likely JFK's body stiffening as part of the reflex reaction caused by by damage to the nerves of the Brachial Plexus.
I don't remember any mention of damage to that nerve by the autopsy doctors.
Of course that doesn't mean there wasn't, but even if there was I haven't found info that
points to it causing the kind of reaction seen in Z228 - Z236 from JFK.
Not being a doctor that is just my uneducated observation.
"The brachial plexus is the network of nerves that sends signals from the spinal cord to the shoulder, arm and hand.
Common symptoms of brachial plexus injuries are:
Numbness or loss of feeling in the hand or arm.
Inability to control or move the shoulder, arm, wrist or hand.
An arm that hangs limply.
Burning, stinging or severe and sudden pain in the shoulder or arm."
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Gary,
I don't know if the autopsy went into the detail of dissecting the vertebral column to remove and examine the spinal cord inside, particularly through the C4-T1 area. If they did that, then perhaps signs of bruising damage or lesions of the cord would be supportive. There need not be a total severing of the spinal cord to have an effect. If there are any reports of this inspection being done at autopsy I would be interested in the observations and comments.
The brachial plexus originate or roots in the spinal cord area of C4-T1, so bruising or lesions or damage to the spinal cord in the C4-T1 area would effect the plexus function and in turn the muscles that are innervated by them. These happen to coincide with the muscles seen effected on JFK on film starting around z226 and onward to z312.
If I had to guess I think it would have been a local radical shearing impulse or compression of the vertebra, impinging on the spinal cord in that area, or even a vertebra torque or twisting in that area that might explain cord trauma and importantly causing a bilateral effect.
The visual presentation of muscle symptoms of spastic paralysis and its common cause (cervical spinal trauma) that I summarized on https://sites.google.com/view/spastic-paralysis/home
look to match JFK's reactions quite closely (especially pattern lll) which is why this seems to me, if these occurred quickly and reflexively after a traumatic bullet insult, to best explain the mechanics of how, and why, JFK is reacting the way he does at this point in the film.
The more I hear about a Thorburn reaction, the more it sounds like that it is different, or at least a somewhat different but possibly a related reaction, but perhaps not a rapid reflexive reaction to spinal cord trauma.
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Gary,
I don't know if the autopsy went into the detail of dissecting the vertebral column to remove and examine the spinal cord inside, particularly through the C4-T1 area. If they did that, then perhaps signs of bruising damage or lesions of the cord would be supportive. There need not be a total severing of the spinal cord to have an effect. If there are any reports of this inspection being done at autopsy I would be interested in the observations and comments.
The brachial plexus originate or roots in the spinal cord area of C4-T1, so bruising or lesions or damage to the spinal cord in the C4-T1 area would effect the plexus function and in turn the muscles that are innervated by them. These happen to coincide with the muscles seen effected on JFK on film starting around z226 and onward to z312.
If I had to guess I think it would have been a local radical shearing impulse or compression of the vertebra, impinging on the spinal cord in that area, or even a vertebra torque or twisting in that area that might explain cord trauma and importantly causing a bilateral effect.
The visual presentation of muscle symptoms of spastic paralysis and its common cause (cervical spinal trauma) that I summarized on https://sites.google.com/view/spastic-paralysis/home
look to match JFK's reactions quite closely (especially pattern lll) which is why this seems to me, if these occurred quickly and reflexively after a traumatic bullet insult, to best explain the mechanics of how, and why, JFK is reacting the way he does at this point in the film.
The more I hear about a Thorburn reaction, the more it sounds like that it is different, or at least a somewhat different but possibly a related reaction, but perhaps not a rapid reflexive reaction to spinal cord trauma.
Correct me if getting this wrong.
Whether the bullet entered from the front, (a shot from the picket fence IMO) or from the rear the damage caused to the
brachial plexus nerve(s) would/could have caused JFK arms into the position they are in after he is struck? I'm not understanding how damage to nerve(s) that control the shoulder, arms & hands would force JFK's upper body forward in about a third of a second via Z228 - Z336.
"The minimum time for a neurological reaction to an external stimulus is 200 milliseconds, or between three and four frames of the Zapruder film."
Could an external stimulas of say a bullet to the back at between Z224 - Z225 have caused JFK to lurch forward so quickly? The stimulas that caused his arm movement would have been earlier based on his reactions as he emerged from behind the Stemmons sign? Z221 - Z222.
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Could an alternative to the jet effect at Z313 be the piece of bone that shoots up at a 45 degree angle from the top of JFKs head? Would an opposite and equal reaction to this bone rocketing off from JFKs head cause JFKs head to be forced downwards, and with no where to go would cause JFKs head and body to subsequently spring "back and to the left".
Think about it. If you compress a spring, it will spring back and upwards away from where you applied the force downwards.
The ejection of any matter results in an impulse to the head that is equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to the momentum of the ejected matter. So each drop of blood, each bone fragment and each particle of brain matter exploding out of the head imparts momentum to the head that is equal and opposite to its own momentum from the explosion. [All momentum is relative to the frame of reference of the head at the instant before the ejection began.]
So the ejection of the skull fragments is part of, rather than an alternative to, the jet effect.
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Correct me if getting this wrong.
Whether the bullet entered from the front, (a shot from the picket fence IMO) or from the rear the damage caused to the
brachial plexus nerve(s) would/could have caused JFK arms into the position they are in after he is struck? I'm not understanding how damage to nerve(s) that control the shoulder, arms & hands would force JFK's upper body forward in about a third of a second via Z228 - Z336.
"The minimum time for a neurological reaction to an external stimulus is 200 milliseconds, or between three and four frames of the Zapruder film."
Could an external stimulas of say a bullet to the back at between Z224 - Z225 have caused JFK to lurch forward so quickly? The stimulas that caused his arm movement would have been earlier based on his reactions as he emerged from behind the Stemmons sign? Z221 - Z222.
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Gary, good question(s), thanks for asking. I think they may be more difficult to answer than what they initially seem, but I’ll at least try to provide my impressions on how these might be answered.
First let me condense the questions and if I miss any of your points of concern, let me know.
1. Could a shot from the front cause the unusual neck, shoulders, arms, and hands/fingers reactions that are seen?
2. How could this relate to some apparent upper body forward motion around z228-z236
(I assumed z336 was a typo so used z236), and if the main muscle reactions of shoulders thru fingers were caused by a frontal shot at z221-z222, could a different back shot at z224-z225 cause some forward motion at z228-z236?
To discuss a couple of these questions, it might help if I shared a little more background on what I was doing and some other stuff I found on this.
My intent in all this was to better understand JFK’s posturing and find an updated medical description with a mechanistic explanation of the apparent stiffening reactions that were observed. I felt like there might be more information available now-a-days that describe this better than it was few a decades ago. When I saw the visual depictions of some patients with spastic paralysis that appeared to be so close to JFK’s presentation, that is when I adopted the term. Looking back on my notes I saw the following related items:
- Spasticity is related to muscle stiffening and the stiffening can be facilitated via a stretch reflex in a traumatized spinal cord.
- Spasticity can begin suddenly or gradually and is often not seen immediately after an injury.
So it appears that many cases apparently do develop over time, and perhaps Thorburn would fall under this classification (although a Dr. Artwohl was not convinced).
Additionally, I did find earlier discussion related to this and it tended to focus on brachial plexus trauma more so than trauma a little bit further upstream in the spinal cord. There was some earlier discussion in the mid 70’s about JFK’s unusual stiffening after the second shot when ITEK reported on his general motion and commented that he appeared to remain in a frozen position leading up to z312. In the mid 90’s there was some commentary from doctors that focused on effect to the brachial plexus. I think their knowledge and insight is applicable here, but it also seems there is a good chance that if a lower cervical vertebra wing process was indirectly pushed or even slightly physically grazed by a bullet passing, there would be tremendous torque/twisting on the spinal cord in that area which could contribute to cord damage and have effects bilaterally (effects on both left and right sides).
The following references were from Dr. Artwohl and Dr. Strully.
Comments from Dr. Artwohl
“JFK was not exhibiting a Thorburn response. He was exhibiting an immediate response to the bullet passing through the base of his right neck. It sort of looks like a Thorburn’s position, but it is not a truly what Thorburn was describing, which is a much-delayed reaction (days to months) following a low cervical cord transection.”
“JFK’s reaction to the neck wound was, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous to the hit at Z-223/224. As the bullet passed through his neck, the pressure cavity caused an immediate and wide spread stimulation of all the nerves in the immediate vicinity, that is of the brachial plexus, the large group of nerves that emerge from C5-T1. These are the nerves that supply motor function to the arms.”
Comments from neurologist Dr. Strully, dated April 9, 1994.
"Before all else, it is necessary to remember that this assassination reveals a sequence of neural responses initiated in the neck by the shock wave and cavitation induced by the bullet in its traverse of the neck. This traumatized all structures in a 6 inch radius in all directions from the path of passage through the neck. This spread of forces occurred in a fraction of a second, traumatizing all neural structures in the immediate vicinity within a fraction of a second as determined by the speed of the missile according to ballistic studies.
As a result, contraction of the muscles innervated by nerves closest to the bullet's path took place first; -- right deltoid, left deltoid, right biceps followed by the left biceps and sequential contraction of all muscles in the forearms, hands, chest, abdominal walls and paraspinal muscle groups, with muscles in the lower extremities, farthest from the shock wave, responding last. All neural structures in the neck were stimulated at the same moment but the distance an impulse had to travel to cause muscle contractions in the hamstrings and gluteal muscles was greater, thus the motor responses in these muscles occurred much later."
[...]
"All movements seen in the films, occurring relative to the bullet's passage, were involuntary; lifting of the shoulders was a result of contraction of the deltoids followed by contraction of the biceps muscles which flexed the upper extremities at the elbows, then forearm and intrinsic muscles of the hands causing clenching of the hands."
You can see that the neck area and brachial plexus are focused on in these doctor discussions but Dr. Strully also alludes to the possibility of muscles reacting further down the body in the chest, abdominal walls, and possibly the lower extremities.
With all this background I would answer your questions as best I can as follows:
1) If the trajectory of a bullet passing through the neck from the front or back was in the correct orientation to penetrate and pass right by or graze the brachial plexus or lower cervical spinal region, I would expect that similar effects could occur.
2) If Dr. Strully is correct that additional cavitation effects can have an impact on nerves innervating muscles below the neck and shoulder area, and into the upper torso and abdomen, this could account for additional muscle reactions and some general body forward reaction movement forward immediately following the initial arm reactions.
If you prefer to go with a back impact second bullet explanation, there would probably need be a second bullet hole in the back, presumably an entrance (no exit hole from this bullet in the front since the single hole in front is speculated to be a different bullet entering the front of the neck and exiting the back of the neck which caused the arm reactions), then I suppose you could argue a second shot in the back pushed him forward. It probably would have to be a softpoint that mushroomed at strike to transmit a lot of momentum going into the back and push him forward. In this case since it didn’t front exit you would look for a second hole in the back side and a remnant mushroomed bullet that ended up in the chest cavity.
The neuromuscular reactions are complex, and if there is a better medical term or nomenclature for the effects seen here I would be glad to adopt it. It just seems that spastic paralysis, which could include spinal cord and brachial plexus effects, is a closely related term and I think better than Thorburn.
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The back and to the left was caused by a bullet coming from the rear, hitting JFK in the back of his head, traveling some distance through the brain and then exploding. The bullet is what is called a frangible round, they explode just after impact.
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Here's a nice little demonstration of why a bullet from the grassy knoll could not have flung JFK back into his seat. A bullet has just way too little mass to move an adults head so violently back and to the left. A bullet only has enough mass to move an adult head a little bit - which is why Oswalds bullet to JFKs head was only able to move JFKs head forward about 2 inches as seen in the Zapruder film when it is slowed down.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WvqTnqR2kn0
Itek did a study on this and determined the same thing: that no bullet could have caused JFK's violent backward motion. Dr. Mantik reviewed Itek's study, did his own calculations, and his calculations are very close to Itek's. The fact that no bullet could have caused the backward motion was one of the things that led Dr. Mantik to consider the idea of film alteration.
The problem for lone-gunman theorists is that they have no innocent plausible explanation for the backward movement. The jet-effect theory and the neuromuscular-reaction theory are just about equal in absurdity and implausibility.
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/nova-s-cold-case-jfk-junk-science-pbs
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2623.msg92145.html#msg92145
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2623.msg92315.html#msg92315
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2623.msg92343.html#msg92343
https://www.themantikview.org/pdf/Omissions_and_Miscalculations_of_Nicholas_Nalli.pdf
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-omissions-and-miscalculations-of-nicholas-nalli
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Not implausible or absurd if it was a frangible round coming from JFK’s left rear.
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Camera motion and braking are also possibilities for the temporary forward motion at 313
I have not checked out the entire thread, but I assume there are no filmed reenactments or reasonable facsimiles Wouldn't that serve as confirmation for iteks models
Is there a link showing Mantik's evaluation of Itek's study?
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Camera motion and braking are also possibilities for the temporary forward motion at 313
(https://images2.imgbox.com/2a/28/kqoiY4t8_o.gif)
A bullet strike from behind causes Kennedy's head to violently move forward. Connally and Kellerman movements are a continuation of movement started earlier. If a panning motion, all would move forward equally. Mrs. Connally and Greer hardly move, so braking not an issue either.
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Lets take it back a few more frames There was a researcher that examined all this much more closely and there was forward motion of most of those in the limo Kelleraman and the Conally's are moving slightly forward even in your clip[ but the general trend needs to be viewed in a longer clip
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The jet-effect theory and the neuromuscular-reaction theory are just about equal in absurdity and implausibility.
The jet-effect is basic physics. It has been duplicated in real life by, among others, Chad Zimmerman with his turkey shoot:
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The jet-effect theory and the neuromuscular-reaction theory are just about equal in absurdity and implausibility.
"The motion of the President's head as shown in the Zapruder film does not indicate the direction of the shot in my opinion, but the visible blow-out of tissue and bony fragments in frame 313 and subsequent frames do conclusively indicate the bullet came from behind. The head motion subsequently is interpreted as due to involuntary muscle extension (https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=32027#relPageId=10&tab=page) and not due to the direction of the injury."
--Dr. Fred Hodges (http://www.ajnr.org/content/29/1/e1), Chief of Neuroradiology at Johns Hopkins Hospital, President of the Society of American Neuroradiology, and later Professor of Radiology at Mallinckrodt Institute of Radiology at Washington University in St. Louis, Mo.
Neuroradiology (https://www.asnr.org/asnr/about-us/) is the clinical sub-specialty concerned with the diagnostic radiology of diseases of the central nervous system, brain, head and neck, through the use of x-ray, MRI, CT and angiography.
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"Immediately after the shot through the head the President took rather abruptly an almost erect position before slumping over to the left. This straightening is to be considered a sudden opisthotonic reflex movement due to decerebration." (https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=32024#relPageId=9&tab=page)
-- Richard Lindenberg, M.D (https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=31999), Director of Neuropathology for the State of Maryland, Clinical Professor in Forensic Pathology and Lecturer in Neuroanatomy at University of Maryland
Neuropathology (https://www.vumc.org/pmi/division-neuropathology) is the study of diseases of the brain, spinal cord, and nerves.
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The jet-effect is basic physics. It has been duplicated in real life by, among others, Chad Zimmerman with his turkey shoot:
The more resistance on impact, such as occipital bone, the greater the force transfered to the head Alvarez completely ignores this force by using a melon
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The more resistance on impact, such as occipital bone, the greater the force transfered to the head Alvarez completely ignores this force by using a melon
The bullet struck above the occipital bone. It entered at the so-called "occipital region", but in the rear part of the right parietal bone.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1SxNmpkUYDBvs_AR1aWCdrV3IFWc2935u)
This drove the upper part of the skull forward and caused the explosion of the head exactly where we would expect to see it.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/2a/28/kqoiY4t8_o.gif)
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Maybe.It's really irrelevant The question is how much bone absorbed energy from the bullet and whether Alvarez took that into account
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The jet-effect is basic physics. It has been duplicated in real life by, among others, Chad Zimmerman with his turkey shoot:
If the bullet impacted just one inch to the right of where it is hanging from, then the turkey would start rotating counter clockwise. It looks very much like the bullet is entering on the far side of the turkey. It looks like the rotation we see has nothing to do with jet effect.
We also see it swing slightly left in the direction of the bullet path and then it swings back slightly to the right. Of course it does that because it is being suspended from directly above. There is nothing in that test that is worth anything. Claiming the counterclockwise rotation is a jet effect is gas lighting.