JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: James Hackerott on June 13, 2022, 02:39:19 AM
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Tom Alyea “What the Hull Is That?”
My apology to Steve Martin’s skit from vintage Saturday Night Live.
Also, I give very long overdue but very grateful thanks to Charles Collins, for his patient and quite helpful collaboration with 3D modeling to help determine the timing of Tom Alyea’s filming of the sniper’s nest. However, Charles does not, I believe, agree with my conclusions from the interpretation of this work.
The image under discussion is a stacked frame composite of 171 frames of Alyea’s first of two scenes taken of the sniper’s nest rest boxes, barricade boxes, window ledge and slat flooring. The purpose of registering and stacking individual frames is to reduce the video noise giving the possibility of drawing out fainter details not evident in single frames. The stacked product is then able to withstand more aggressive enhancements compared with that for single frames. Stacking gives a theoretical improvement of signal (true image) to noise ratio by the square root of the number of frames ~13x for this example.
Tom Alyea asserted that Capt. Fritz picked up the hulls and replaced them before the crime lab took their photos. I wanted to see if Alyea’s timing could be consistent with his assertion.
For the timing of Alyea’s film Charles and myself used our own independent 3D modeling software for analysis of several shadows present in the image. Of primary interest to me were the complex shadows cast by the raised window sash and frame on the window’s east bricks. As Charles pointed out to me the light/shadow pattern on the center window divider (mullion) is also helpful. Nevertheless we were getting timings maybe 30 minutes or more differences. Stubborn me felt the time could be earlier before the Dallas PD Crime lab took their photos of the nest area at near 13:17. I decided the only way to confirm the models was to put myself in the Sixth Floor Museum’s exhibit on November 22. I was able to photo the SN on the anniversary under brilliant blue sky. My determination range of error of 1:55-2:00 pm is wider than I wanted. It was later that night after study of my day’s photo work revealed that the museum’s window is 4-5” lower than when Dillard and Alyea filmed the partially open sniper’s window.
I was doubly blessed that the following day the sky was still cloudless and I was able to reproduce the timing of Lt. Day’s leaving the building and crossing Houston Street at 1:56 pm. It appears from preliminary examination of photos that Captain Fritz also left within a few minutes of Lt. Day.
Timeline, pm:
1:17 Dallas Police Crime Scene Photos
1:23 Hulls collected and placed in an evidence envelope (from Warren Commission testimony)
1:55-2:00 Tom Alyea, after he and Studebaker returned to the nest area after filming the Carcano.
1:56 Lt. Day leaves the depository, and Capt. Fritz at a similar time.
171 registered and stacked frames from the WFAA DVD with subsequent processing reveals something the size and shape of a Carcano rifle hull, as seen in the DPD crime scene photos. It is on the floor very near where hull “B” was labeled in the crime photos, but is no longer positioned nearly parallel with the ledge bricks, but rotated some 30 degrees in the direction of Alyea’s camera. It appears in the processed image between the two “L”s of DALLAS, along the floor/brick intersection. This object is not in this position in the crime scene photos or in an especially clear photo taken from a similar location by William Allen, probably around 3 pm.
(https://i.imgur.com/WAQqleU.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/IeFpepM.jpg)
https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/3674/-?ctx=976b9fe77bac91797901f98dc91d9726997aa52c&idx=177
There is no significant floor defect in that location that could be responsible for the object. The object is not a film defect for several reasons I’d be happy to describe if there any questions.
So, assuming the object is a hull, why is it there when presumably the hulls were already collected for evidence some 35-40 minutes earlier?
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Hi James, I am very happy that you decided to share this impressive work of yours on this forum. Thanks for the kind words, I was honored to be able to help. I will have some more comments as time allows. Thanks again, take care!
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Tom Alyea “What the Hull Is That?”
My apology to Steve Martin’s skit from vintage Saturday Night Live.
Also, I give very long overdue but very grateful thanks to Charles Collins, for his patient and quite helpful collaboration with 3D modeling to help determine the timing of Tom Alyea’s filming of the sniper’s nest. However, Charles does not, I believe, agree with my conclusions from the interpretation of this work.
The image under discussion is a stacked frame composite of 171 frames of Alyea’s first of two scenes taken of the sniper’s nest rest boxes, barricade boxes, window ledge and slat flooring. The purpose of registering and stacking individual frames is to reduce the video noise giving the possibility of drawing out fainter details not evident in single frames. The stacked product is then able to withstand more aggressive enhancements compared with that for single frames. Stacking gives a theoretical improvement of signal (true image) to noise ratio by the square root of the number of frames ~13x for this example.
Tom Alyea asserted that Capt. Fritz picked up the hulls and replaced them before the crime lab took their photos. I wanted to see if Alyea’s timing could be consistent with his assertion.
For the timing of Alyea’s film Charles and myself used our own independent 3D modeling software for analysis of several shadows present in the image. Of primary interest to me were the complex shadows cast by the raised window sash and frame on the window’s east bricks. As Charles pointed out to me the light/shadow pattern on the center window divider (mullion) is also helpful. Nevertheless we were getting timings maybe 30 minutes or more differences. Stubborn me felt the time could be earlier before the Dallas PD Crime lab took their photos of the nest area at near 13:17. I decided the only way to confirm the models was to put myself in the Sixth Floor Museum’s exhibit on November 22. I was able to photo the SN on the anniversary under brilliant blue sky. My determination range of error of 1:55-2:00 pm is wider than I wanted. It was later that night after study of my day’s photo work revealed that the museum’s window is 4-5” lower than when Dillard and Alyea filmed the partially open sniper’s window.
I was doubly blessed that the following day the sky was still cloudless and I was able to reproduce the timing of Lt. Day’s leaving the building and crossing Houston Street at 1:56 pm. It appears from preliminary examination of photos that Captain Fritz also left within a few minutes of Lt. Day.
Timeline, pm:
1:17 Dallas Police Crime Scene Photos
1:23 Hulls collected and placed in an evidence envelope (from Warren Commission testimony)
1:55-2:00 Tom Alyea, after he and Studebaker returned to the nest area after filming the Carcano.
1:56 Lt. Day leaves the depository, and Capt. Fritz at a similar time.
171 registered and stacked frames from the WFAA DVD with subsequent processing reveals something the size and shape of a Carcano rifle hull, as seen in the DPD crime scene photos. It is on the floor very near where hull “B” was labeled in the crime photos, but is no longer positioned nearly parallel with the ledge bricks, but rotated some 30 degrees in the direction of Alyea’s camera. It appears in the processed image between the two “L”s of DALLAS, along the floor/brick intersection. This object is not in this position in the crime scene photos or in an especially clear photo taken from a similar location by William Allen, probably around 3 pm.
(https://i.imgur.com/WAQqleU.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/IeFpepM.jpg)
https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/3674/-?ctx=976b9fe77bac91797901f98dc91d9726997aa52c&idx=177
There is no significant floor defect in that location that could be responsible for the object. The object is not a film defect for several reasons I’d be happy to describe if there any questions.
So, assuming the object is a hull, why is it there when presumably the hulls were already collected for evidence some 35-40 minutes earlier?
It would appear that the boxes in recreated "Sniper's Nest" are not positioned precisely as they were in the official crime scene photo. (IF the official police photo is actually a true photo of the scene as it appeared at about 1:15 pm on 11/22/63)
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It would appear that the boxes in recreated "Sniper's Nest" are not positioned precisely as they were in the official crime scene photo. (IF the official police photo is actually a true photo of the scene as it appeared at about 1:15 pm on 11/22/63)
The box resting on the window sill in the current reconstruction in the sixth floor museum was repositioned in order to hide the webcam inside the box.
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I wouldn't worry about photos and 3D recreations and current photos. The story about the shells goes into great detail here:
https://www.patspeer.com/chapter4e-un-smoking-the-gun
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I wouldn't worry about photos and 3D recreations and current photos. The story about the shells goes into great detail here:
https://www.patspeer.com/chapter4e-un-smoking-the-gun
Thank you, Michael.... Pat Speer is one of the best and most intensive researchers.... My only criticism of Pat would be that after doing a thorough job of researching an aspect of the case he's hesitant to produce a solid conclusion.
As far as the time of discovery of the shells aspect of the case is concerned, I doubt that the time can be determined by examining photos....Because as Luke Mooney said with a chuckle..... " We just don't know which of the photos is authentic and which are fakes". ......And that's the gospel truth!
The very FACT that Mooney acknowledged that the DPD created fake photos of the crime scene, speaks volumes about a conspiracy....and who was guilty of setting Lee Oswald up as the Patsy.
Good night.... Michael.
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Thank you, Michael.... Pat Speer is one of the best and most intensive researchers.... My only criticism of Pat would be that after doing a thorough job of researching an aspect of the case he's hesitant to produce a solid conclusion.
As far as the time of discovery of the shells aspect of the case is concerned, I doubt that the time can be determined by examining photos....Because as Luke Mooney said with a chuckle..... " We just don't know which of the photos is authentic and which are fakes". ......And that's the gospel truth!
The very FACT that Mooney acknowledged that the DPD created fake photos of the crime scene, speaks volumes about a conspiracy....and who was guilty of setting Lee Oswald up as the Patsy.
Good night.... Michael.
Correct. I've talked to him several times off line and he seems like a nice guy. There's a lot of "hatred" of him for some reason with the conspiracy folks - Greg Parker's forum you can dig in and find stuff. And yes, I've knocked him myself several times because he really researches the hell out of things. YET, it always seems "Could it be? Or not? Who knows?" It's terribly aggravating but his research is top-notch.
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Because as Luke Mooney said with a chuckle..... " We just don't know which of the photos is authentic and which are fakes". ......And that's the gospel truth!
Source please.
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Source please.
From the link that Mr Walton provided.
Mooney was interviewed by Gary Mack for the Sixth Floor Museum on 12-4-02. The transcript to this interview reveals that, when asked about the layout of the shells in the sniper's nest, Mooney replied: "down here, besides where the rifle was when he ejected the shells, there were three spent shells. (indicating with finger on tabletop their position—off camera) One like... about like there and one here and one over here. They might have been a foot apart because I didn’t have no camera to take pictures of them, but I’m sure they did because I had to identify them all in Washington, D.C. And all--either good pictures or fake pictures (smiling), they had all kinds. And if you didn’t know what you saw, you better not talk (chuckling and Gary briefly chuckles in background) because they had the answer."
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Never answered in all these years...Where in the hull was the ammunition kept for that alleged rifle?
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Never answered in all these years...Where in the hull was the ammunition kept for that alleged rifle?
Questions like this ( rhetorical ) are very revealing about how sloppy the conspirators were....
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Tom Alyea “What the Hull Is That?”
My apology to Steve Martin’s skit from vintage Saturday Night Live.
Also, I give very long overdue but very grateful thanks to Charles Collins, for his patient and quite helpful collaboration with 3D modeling to help determine the timing of Tom Alyea’s filming of the sniper’s nest. However, Charles does not, I believe, agree with my conclusions from the interpretation of this work.
The image under discussion is a stacked frame composite of 171 frames of Alyea’s first of two scenes taken of the sniper’s nest rest boxes, barricade boxes, window ledge and slat flooring. The purpose of registering and stacking individual frames is to reduce the video noise giving the possibility of drawing out fainter details not evident in single frames. The stacked product is then able to withstand more aggressive enhancements compared with that for single frames. Stacking gives a theoretical improvement of signal (true image) to noise ratio by the square root of the number of frames ~13x for this example.
Tom Alyea asserted that Capt. Fritz picked up the hulls and replaced them before the crime lab took their photos. I wanted to see if Alyea’s timing could be consistent with his assertion.
For the timing of Alyea’s film Charles and myself used our own independent 3D modeling software for analysis of several shadows present in the image. Of primary interest to me were the complex shadows cast by the raised window sash and frame on the window’s east bricks. As Charles pointed out to me the light/shadow pattern on the center window divider (mullion) is also helpful. Nevertheless we were getting timings maybe 30 minutes or more differences. Stubborn me felt the time could be earlier before the Dallas PD Crime lab took their photos of the nest area at near 13:17. I decided the only way to confirm the models was to put myself in the Sixth Floor Museum’s exhibit on November 22. I was able to photo the SN on the anniversary under brilliant blue sky. My determination range of error of 1:55-2:00 pm is wider than I wanted. It was later that night after study of my day’s photo work revealed that the museum’s window is 4-5” lower than when Dillard and Alyea filmed the partially open sniper’s window.
I was doubly blessed that the following day the sky was still cloudless and I was able to reproduce the timing of Lt. Day’s leaving the building and crossing Houston Street at 1:56 pm. It appears from preliminary examination of photos that Captain Fritz also left within a few minutes of Lt. Day.
Timeline, pm:
1:17 Dallas Police Crime Scene Photos
1:23 Hulls collected and placed in an evidence envelope (from Warren Commission testimony)
1:55-2:00 Tom Alyea, after he and Studebaker returned to the nest area after filming the Carcano.
1:56 Lt. Day leaves the depository, and Capt. Fritz at a similar time.
171 registered and stacked frames from the WFAA DVD with subsequent processing reveals something the size and shape of a Carcano rifle hull, as seen in the DPD crime scene photos. It is on the floor very near where hull “B” was labeled in the crime photos, but is no longer positioned nearly parallel with the ledge bricks, but rotated some 30 degrees in the direction of Alyea’s camera. It appears in the processed image between the two “L”s of DALLAS, along the floor/brick intersection. This object is not in this position in the crime scene photos or in an especially clear photo taken from a similar location by William Allen, probably around 3 pm.
(https://i.imgur.com/WAQqleU.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/IeFpepM.jpg)
https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/3674/-?ctx=976b9fe77bac91797901f98dc91d9726997aa52c&idx=177
There is no significant floor defect in that location that could be responsible for the object. The object is not a film defect for several reasons I’d be happy to describe if there any questions.
So, assuming the object is a hull, why is it there when presumably the hulls were already collected for evidence some 35-40 minutes earlier?
James i confess that i have not dwelt on all of the evidence re the positions etc of the 3 hulls. But i do remember that Alyea said that Fritz picked the 3 hulls up to show him, & then put them back down on the floor or somesuch.
I reckon that Oswald fired the first shot at (pseudo frame) Z111 (trigger time), and ejected that hull say 1 sec later at Z129.
I reckon that Oswald fired the 2nd shot at say Z215 (trigger time), and ejected that hull say 1 sec later at Z233.
I assume that ejections at Z129 & Z233 are compatible with where those 2 hulls were found. Were they?
I mean compatible with the directions that the Carcano must have been pointing during ejections, ie i presume that the hulls bounced offa the book-boxes & then hit the wall under the window & came to rest close to the wall.
But there might be a compatibility problem for the ejection of the spare-hull that he had sitting in the Carcano during the days leading up to that Friday.
My understanding is that it is common practice to keep a spare-hull (i don’t remember the technical term) in the Carcano to protect the firing pin etc. A firing pin etc can be damaged during dry-fires (ie when the trigger is pulled while there is no loaded bullet)(ie if the chamber is empty).
So, the question in my mind is when & how did Oswald eject the spare-hull. There are at least 2 scenarios.
(1) He forgot that the Carcano was loaded with a spare-hull. Here Oswald fires when JFK is starting the turn into Elm St at say (pseudo frame) Z038, but there is no bang, & when Oswald ejects the spare-hull he is standing & pointing the Carcano south-east,
hence the hull flies squarely to his right to the south-west & lands on the floor & comes to rest near the corner of the window-wall & the wall of boxes.
In this scenario Oswald Oswald fires his first shot at Z111, ie 4 seconds after Z038, which is about as fast as he can load. He probly intended to fire a 2nd shot at about Z111, but got a fright when there was no bang at Z038, & so he panicked a bit, & forgot about needing to avoid hitting the overhead signal arm, & that is what happened, his shot-1 ricocheted offa the signal arm. Then he had to fire his shot-2 at say Z215, & there is a possibility that he had never intended to fire at that time & location, koz that would have been his shot-3. & he had only 3 bullets, he would have had no bullets remaining. In the end we know that he fired only 2 shots, even tho he could have fired at about Z309-313 if he wanted to, which he did not. And, we know that he had made his decision not to fire a 3rd shot as soon as he had fired his 2nd shot, koz we know (Brennan's testimony) that he was already standing back away from the window when he saw SSA Hickey fire the fatal burst.
(2) He knows that the Carcano is loaded with a spare-hull. He ejects the spare-hull well before JFK appears in Houston St, he ejects in a say westerly direction while the Carcano is pointing in a southerly direction.
The spare-hull bounces on the floor & comes to rest a long way westwards.
In this scenario his first shot at Z111 was planned, but planned badly, koz he did not manage to avoid ricocheting offa the overhead signal arm. If so then there is a slight chance that he originally never intended to fire shot-2, ie at say Z215, but did so koz he saw that shot-1 missed. In the end we know that he fired only 2 shots, even tho he could have fired at about Z309-313 if he wanted to, which he did not. And, we know that he had made his decision not to fire a 3rd shot as soon as he had fired his 2nd shot, koz we know (Brennan's testimony) that he was already standing back away from the window when he saw SSA Hickey fire the fatal burst.
I assume that ejections at Z129 & Z233 are compatible with where 2 hulls were found. Am i correct?
Is my (1) scenario compatible with where the 3rd hull was found?
Or, is my (2) scenario compatible with where the 3rd hull was found?
Or, are both (1) & (2) non-compatible (re where the hulls were found)?
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James i confess that i have not dwelt on all of the evidence re the positions etc of the 3 hulls. But i do remember that Alyea said that Fritz picked the 3 hulls up to show him, & then put them back down on the floor or somesuch.
I reckon that Oswald fired the first shot at (pseudo frame) Z111 (trigger time), and ejected that hull say 1 sec later at Z129.
I reckon that Oswald fired the 2nd shot at say Z215 (trigger time), and ejected that hull say 1 sec later at Z233.
I assume that ejections at Z129 & Z233 are compatible with where those 2 hulls were found. Were they?
I mean compatible with the directions that the Carcano must have been pointing during ejections, ie i presume that the hulls bounced offa the book-boxes & then hit the wall under the window & came to rest close to the wall.
But there might be a compatibility problem for the ejection of the spare-hull that he had sitting in the Carcano during the days leading up to that Friday.
My understanding is that it is common practice to keep a spare-hull (i don’t remember the technical term) in the Carcano to protect the firing pin etc. A firing pin etc can be damaged during dry-fires (ie when the trigger is pulled while there is no loaded bullet)(ie if the chamber is empty).
So, the question in my mind is when & how did Oswald eject the spare-hull. There are at least 2 scenarios.
(1) He forgot that the Carcano was loaded with a spare-hull. Here Oswald fires when JFK is starting the turn into Elm St at say (pseudo frame) Z038, but there is no bang, & when Oswald ejects the spare-hull he is standing & pointing the Carcano south-east,
hence the hull flies squarely to his right to the south-west & lands on the floor & comes to rest near the corner of the window-wall & the wall of boxes.
In this scenario Oswald Oswald fires his first shot at Z111, ie 4 seconds after Z038, which is about as fast as he can load. He probly intended to fire a 2nd shot at about Z111, but got a fright when there was no bang at Z038, & so he panicked a bit, & forgot about needing to avoid hitting the overhead signal arm, & that is what happened, his shot-1 ricocheted offa the signal arm. Then he had to fire his shot-2 at say Z215, & there is a possibility that he had never intended to fire at that time & location, koz that would have been his shot-3. & he had only 3 bullets, he would have had no bullets remaining. In the end we know that he fired only 2 shots, even tho he could have fired at about Z309-313 if he wanted to, which he did not. And, we know that he had made his decision not to fire a 3rd shot as soon as he had fired his 2nd shot, koz we know (Brennan's testimony) that he was already standing back away from the window when he saw SSA Hickey fire the fatal burst.
(2) He knows that the Carcano is loaded with a spare-hull. He ejects the spare-hull well before JFK appears in Houston St, he ejects in a say westerly direction while the Carcano is pointing in a southerly direction.
The spare-hull bounces on the floor & comes to rest a long way westwards.
In this scenario his first shot at Z111 was planned, but planned badly, koz he did not manage to avoid ricocheting offa the overhead signal arm. If so then there is a slight chance that he originally never intended to fire shot-2, ie at say Z215, but did so koz he saw that shot-1 missed. In the end we know that he fired only 2 shots, even tho he could have fired at about Z309-313 if he wanted to, which he did not. And, we know that he had made his decision not to fire a 3rd shot as soon as he had fired his 2nd shot, koz we know (Brennan's testimony) that he was already standing back away from the window when he saw SSA Hickey fire the fatal burst.
I assume that ejections at Z129 & Z233 are compatible with where 2 hulls were found. Am i correct?
Is my (1) scenario compatible with where the 3rd hull was found?
Or, is my (2) scenario compatible with where the 3rd hull was found?
Or, are both (1) & (2) non-compatible (re where the hulls were found)?
Hey!...aren't you the guy who believes that a secret service agent shot JFK ?? :D so what the hell are you now doing by claiming the Oswald did the shooting?? ???
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Hey!...aren't you the guy who believes that a secret service agent shot JFK ?? :D so what the hell are you now doing by claiming the Oswald did the shooting?? ???
What i wrote above all fits the Hickey auto burst. In fact i mention Hickey twice.
Re hulls, there were 3 Carcano hulls, & say 6 AR15 hulls, making say 9 hulls.
So, what happened to the 6 – they landed inside the Queen Mary & were pocketed by Hickey – the stink at Parklands must have been bad.
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Hi James, just to get things back on track...
In the smaller picture you posted is there another "object" to the right of the yellow arrow?
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I also find it interesting that Mooney describes the hulls as being about a foot apart when he observed them.
Alyea makes a similar comment when he describes the hulls as being scattered in an area that could be covered by a "bushel basket".
I'm pretty sure there are other officers who describe the hulls as being quite close together but I'm on the road at the moment so don't have that specific info to hand.
Craig is definitely one but I'm sure there are others.
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Hi James, just to get things back on track...
In the smaller picture you posted is there another "object" to the right of the yellow arrow?
Thanks Dan,
What you are asking about is a strip of paper or cardboard that is visible in the DPD crime scene photos, the stacked Alyea frames and Allen’s clear photo taken about 3pm.
(https://i.imgur.com/6qo9P2W.jpg)
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Thanks Dan,
What you are asking about is a strip of paper or cardboard that is visible in the DPD crime scene photos, the stacked Alyea frames and Allen’s clear photo taken about 3pm.
(https://i.imgur.com/6qo9P2W.jpg)
Wow, I believe that cardboard strip might match up to the infamous gouge in the top of one of the boxes that were stacked at the sniper’s window! See linked photo below.
https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/3684/- (https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/3684/-)