JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Chris Bristow on May 08, 2022, 02:51:18 AM
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For years I just accepted Emmet Hudson's WC testimony in which he said he very clearly heard that the shot came from the TSB because he had dropped to the ground by then. He said when the 3rd shot came I was close to the ground" and "when you are on the ground It is a whole lot clearer".
He states the guy next to him dropped to the ground first and kept telling Emmet to "Get down their shooting the president!". Emmet said he heeded the advice and sat next to him.
Emmet Hudson was one of the closest to the theorized knoll shooter position, only 40 feet away and the bullet would have come within 12 feet of him.
He testified that when he initially said the bullet came from behind he really meant behind JFK not behind him at the knoll fence.
So this very detailed account from a witness so close to the knoll is strong evidence for no shot coming from the knoll. But his entire account of he and the guy next to him dropping to the ground is completely false!
The films of that day show Hudson many times. The only time we don't see him and the the other guy standing there is for 5.75 seconds is after Willis 5 and before the Muchmore frames starting at Z 308 thru to Z 338. By then the other guy is turning to run and he disappear into oblivion, he never dropped down! Then again after less than 1 second gap we see him in Nix. He is seen in Muchmore and Nix standing right through the head shot till the Nix frame equaling approx Z frame 350. Hudson is starting to turn away but all the shots have already happened. To late to drop and hear a shot.
There was never a point during the 2nd or 3rd shot that Hudson ever had time to drop down. Only one second between Willis 5 and the 2nd shot. No time for one guy to drop then ask Hudson to get down before he drops too. Before, during and after the last shot we see him standing the whole time. In Z 413 we see his hat through the Pyrocanthus bush and that hat is approx 6 feet of the ground if located on the steps where Hudson was.
All these years of looking at the films and reading testimony I missed this. But it is undeniable that Emmet Hudson's testimony is completely unreliable.
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For years I just accepted Emmet Hudson's WC testimony in which he said he very clearly heard that the shot came from the TSB because he had dropped to the ground by then. He said when the 3rd shot came I was close to the ground" and "when you are on the ground It is a whole lot clearer".
He states the guy next to him dropped to the ground first and kept telling Emmet to "Get down their shooting the president!". Emmet said he heeded the advice and sat next to him.
Emmet Hudson was one of the closest to the theorized knoll shooter position, only 40 feet away and the bullet would have come within 12 feet of him.
He testified that when he initially said the bullet came from behind he really meant behind JFK not behind him at the knoll fence.
So this very detailed account from a witness so close to the knoll is strong evidence for no shot coming from the knoll. But his entire account of he and the guy next to him dropping to the ground is completely false!
The films of that day show Hudson many times. The only time we don't see him and the the other guy standing there is for 5.75 seconds is after Willis 5 and before the Muchmore frames starting at Z 308 thru to Z 338. By then the other guy is turning to run and he disappear into oblivion, he never dropped down! Then again after less than 1 second gap we see him in Nix. He is seen in Muchmore and Nix standing right through the head shot till the Nix frame equaling approx Z frame 350. Hudson is starting to turn away but all the shots have already happened. To late to drop and hear a shot.
There was never a point during the 2nd or 3rd shot that Hudson ever had time to drop down. Only one second between Willis 5 and the 2nd shot. No time for one guy to drop then ask Hudson to get down before he drops too. Before, during and after the last shot we see him standing the whole time. In Z 413 we see his hat through the Pyrocanthus bush and that hat is approx 6 feet of the ground if located on the steps where Hudson was.
All these years of looking at the films and reading testimony I missed this. But it is undeniable that Emmet Hudson's testimony is completely unreliable.
It just makes you wonder why he would be so specific in recounting these events...
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It just makes you wonder why he would be so specific in recounting these events...
I wouldn't worry about what Emmet Hudson said..... He wasn't the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree....
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(https://img71.pixhost.to/images/133/281864141_animatedclipfrommuchmorefilm.gif)
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Hi, Here you go with Mr. Hudson and Mr. Mudd on the ground in Bond 4. Sincerely yours, Michael
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/bond4Crop3.jpg)
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Yes I'm aware of that Bond photo. But that is about 35 seconds after the last shot. We see Hargis already returning to his bike and the limo reached the underpass and left the plaza about 25 seconds earlier. So it doesn't really help Emmett's case.
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Dropping to the ground is supposed to let him hear where the shots are coming from better? What science supports that idea? Maybe he had watched too many western movies where they actually do put an ear to the railroad track rail to hear a train coming better…. ???
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(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/snapshot20111219192149.jpg)
The Bell film is even earlier. Sincerely yours, Michael
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(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/snapshot20111219192149.jpg)
The Bell film is even earlier. Sincerely yours, Michael
The point of this thread is to show Hudson never dropped down to the ground during the shooting. In other words his claims that he heard a shot from the ground is untrue. The Bell film image you show is from about 60 seconds after the last shot. That is when officer Haygood arrived and parked his bike as we see in that Bell clip. So again photos of Hudson sitting down after the shooting are not relevant to the point.
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Hi Chris, I think that is Camera Car #1 and Bell does film the presidential limousine; and if you say Bond 4 is within 35 seconds, Mr. Mudd and Mr. Hudson are on the ground earlier. Since there were four shots, he still could have heard one on the ground. He considered the head shot shot number two. Sincerely yours, Michael
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Hi Chris, I think that is Camera Car #1 and Bell does film the presidential limousine; and if you say Bond 4 is within 35 seconds, Mr. Mudd and Mr. Hudson are on the ground earlier. Since there were four shots, he still could have heard one on the ground. He considered the head shot shot number two. Sincerely yours, Michael
okay , if we are considering a fourth shot he could be on the ground. But we see him as late as the equivalent of Z frame 380 in Nix so the fourth shot would have to happened after frame 380. I consider a fourth shot but only the one reported almost simultaneously after the third shot. My only Point here is to refute the official story that he got down and heard the third shot.
Bell does film the limo leaving the Plaza and tracks it until about 15 seconds after the head shot, after the limo has cleared the underpass. The frame you showed occurs 18 seconds after the last limo shot. So 15 + 18 makes it about 33 seconds after the headshot when we see him in the Bell film. There's a couple earlier frames but things are dark and blurry and I can't see anything. the last time we see him standing is in z-frame 413 when we see his hat through the pyrocanthus bush. So unless he got down after the equivalent of Z frame 380, and then popped back up again by Z 413( less than 2 seconds), he was standing right up till at least Z frame 413
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Hi Chris, What if we use the Bell film as a time clock? At around 40 seconds the presidential limousine was probably in front of Mr. Hudson. Then at 47 seconds the Bell film is the same as Bond 4. This would mean the men are down within seven seconds...... Thank you for everything, Sincerely yours, Michael
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Bond 4 shows Hargis returning to his bike which has to happen after the limo left the plaza. He waited for the limo, follow up SS, Johnson's limo and its follow up SS before he could cross to the North side of Elm. Then he started toward the small patio wall. At some point he turns around and walks back to the sidewalk then maybe 30 feet east to stand next to the lamppost for several seconds deciding what to do. Then he heads back to his bike. In bond 4 he is almost back to his bike and 35 seconds have elapsed since the head shot at 313. Also in the Bell film we see Heygood leaning his bike against the curb near the e manhole. This is after Hargis has remounted and is driving away. I suspect Bell may have stopped filming during one of the blurred segments and threw the clock off.
I use the Z film as the basic clock. Since we have all 485 frames and know it filmed at 18.6 or 18.3 fps it is a near perfect clock. Then we can compare Wiegman, Darnell and other films to fill in the gaps.
If you have not seen this yet it is the best reference we have for the timing of events. Based on all the other films from the day it is very accurate although a few assumptions had to be made.
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html
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Hi Chris, Thank you so very much! I will study this then. Sincerely yours, Michael
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You're welcome and I forgot to mention the Couch film. Couch Wiegmen and Darnell, all newsmen who filmed the scene seconds after the head shot.
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And this. ;)
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I don't see a lot of value in taking a generalized statement about actions taken during a sudden and unexpected event and then subjecting them to pedantic analysis with nearly 60 years of hindsight. It doesn't seem to make any difference if a witness to this event dropped to the ground immediately or several seconds later. Getting caught up in that kind of morass is largely pointless.
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I don't see a lot of value in taking a generalized statement about actions taken during a sudden and unexpected event and then subjecting them to pedantic analysis with nearly 60 years of hindsight. It doesn't seem to make any difference if a witness to this event dropped to the ground immediately or several seconds later. Getting caught up in that kind of morass is largely pointless.
If he just got down on the ground a little later I would agree with you. But I am accepting for argument the premise that the head shot was the last shot. That would mean his memory of getting down on the ground and hearing the shot even better from there was completely wrong.
Under normal circumstances he would have been a good Witness to help debunk a grassy knoll Theory because he was right there and reported nothing about the fence with regard to sound. But now his bad memory about the events makes his testimony about the location of the shot unreliable.
You also have the whole story about the guy next to him getting down and then convincing him to get down. But we see that guy ran away while they're both still standing. So even if there was a fourth shot he was completely wrong about that guy. His testimony overall I think is unreliable.
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And this. ;)
When we see Hudson and Mudd sitting on the steps it is at least 30 seconds after the head shot at 313. So he definitely sat down at some point but was standing at 313 and Z413 as his hat seen through the Pyracantha bush.
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Here is a new wrinkle. Thee SS recreation film from the 6th floor shows that after Z450 there is no theoretical 4th shot possible. The limo moves behind the Fort Worth sign first, then the tree on the knoll blocks the shot after that
Knowing Hudson was still standing at Z frame 413 means there is only a 2 second window for him to drop to the ground and hear a shot from the TSB before the target disappears from Oswald's view.
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For years I just accepted Emmet Hudson's WC testimony in which he said he very clearly heard that the shot came from the TSB because he had dropped to the ground by then. He said when the 3rd shot came I was close to the ground" and "when you are on the ground It is a whole lot clearer".
He states the guy next to him dropped to the ground first and kept telling Emmet to "Get down their shooting the president!". Emmet said he heeded the advice and sat next to him.
Emmet Hudson was one of the closest to the theorized knoll shooter position, only 40 feet away and the bullet would have come within 12 feet of him.
He testified that when he initially said the bullet came from behind he really meant behind JFK not behind him at the knoll fence.
So this very detailed account from a witness so close to the knoll is strong evidence for no shot coming from the knoll. But his entire account of he and the guy next to him dropping to the ground is completely false!
The films of that day show Hudson many times. The only time we don't see him and the the other guy standing there is for 5.75 seconds is after Willis 5 and before the Muchmore frames starting at Z 308 thru to Z 338. By then the other guy is turning to run and he disappear into oblivion, he never dropped down! Then again after less than 1 second gap we see him in Nix. He is seen in Muchmore and Nix standing right through the head shot till the Nix frame equaling approx Z frame 350. Hudson is starting to turn away but all the shots have already happened. To late to drop and hear a shot.
There was never a point during the 2nd or 3rd shot that Hudson ever had time to drop down. Only one second between Willis 5 and the 2nd shot. No time for one guy to drop then ask Hudson to get down before he drops too. Before, during and after the last shot we see him standing the whole time. In Z 413 we see his hat through the Pyrocanthus bush and that hat is approx 6 feet of the ground if located on the steps where Hudson was.
All these years of looking at the films and reading testimony I missed this. But it is undeniable that Emmet Hudson's testimony is completely unreliable.
Emmett Hudson can be seen falling to the ground in these Zapruder film frames. Obviously, Hudson was in shock when he saw the fatal shot hit JFK, and stood there frozen. One simply cannot expect people to all react the same when they see something as shocking as this was, for example. At least judging from what these frames of the Z film reveal, we know when Hudson fell to the ground. His recollection was a little off, but he did fall to the ground within seconds of the fatal shot.
Hudson's head with the cap on it, can be seen at the bottom, right hand side of the screen among foliage on the bush between he and Zapruder. It is difficult to see him, but if you click on the gear shaped icon on the bottom of the YT screen, it will bring up a pop up menu which enables one to adjust the speed. Click on any of the numbers in the list of numbers above the words "Normal Speed" top of the small window--2.5 being the slowest of the four speeds.
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Emmett Hudson can be seen falling to the ground in these Zapruder film frames. Obviously, Hudson was in shock when he saw the fatal shot hit JFK, and stood there frozen. One simply cannot expect people to all react the same when they see something as shocking as this was, for example. At least judging from what these frames of the Z film reveal, we know when Hudson fell to the ground. His recollection was a little off, but he did fall to the ground within seconds of the fatal shot.
Hudson's head with the cap on it, can be seen at the bottom, right hand side of the screen among foliage on the bush between he and Zapruder. It is difficult to see him, but if you click on the gear shaped icon on the bottom of the YT screen, it will bring up a pop up menu which enables one to adjust the speed. Click on any of the numbers in the list of numbers above the words "Normal Speed" top of the small window--2.5 being the slowest of the four speeds.
In the Z film we see him drop about 5 inches and shift to his right. His hat is still 5+ ft off the ground. If he just bent his knees and lowered to 4 ft he would disappear below the frame altogether. So we can't say he dropped to the ground based on images in the Z film.
Hudson claimed he could clearly hear where the shot was coming from because he was laying down. But he was never laying down during the shots so his claim was unreliable. He was totally wrong about the guy next to him getting down at all. He never got down, he ran away.
I would guess if Hudson was cross examined and shown the proof that he stood through the shooting sequence, his credibility would have been toast.
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In the Z film we see him drop about 5 inches and shift to his right. His hat is still 5+ ft off the ground. If he just bent his knees and lowered to 4 ft he would disappear below the frame altogether. So we can't say he dropped to the ground based on images in the Z film.
Hudson claimed he could clearly hear where the shot was coming from because he was laying down. But he was never laying down during the shots so his claim was unreliable. He was totally wrong about the guy next to him getting down at all. He never got down, he ran away.
I would guess if Hudson was cross examined and shown the proof that he stood through the shooting sequence, his credibility would have been toast.
You're not making any sense at all. The speed that he is exhibiting, dropping out of the film is far too fast for someone to be "bending their knees" and squatting or whatever. I dare you to try that without completely falling over! Hudson was an elderly man. I've seen him in the Jimmy Darnell film where he's captured close-up at the opposite end of the pergola. As far as the guy standing next to him who also fell... he's clearly talking about the man he refers to as "The young fellow" in the red shirt and dark pants whom he mentioned a couple of times. I doubt very much--based on the shock of seeing the top of President Kennedy's head fly off-that he was even aware of the black man standing next to him "taking off". On top of all this, you are making an enormous lot out of nothing! Big deal that Hudson got some of the details wrong about his actions during a murder right in front of him! You maybe want to do some research on the affects of going into shock has on the human body.
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You're not making any sense at all. The speed that he is exhibiting, dropping out of the film is far too fast for someone to be "bending their knees" and squatting or whatever. I dare you to try that without completely falling over! Hudson was an elderly man. I've seen him in the Jimmy Darnell film where he's captured close-up at the opposite end of the pergola. As far as the guy standing next to him who also fell... he's clearly talking about the man he refers to as "The young fellow" in the red shirt and dark pants whom he mentioned a couple of times. I doubt very much--based on the shock of seeing the top of President Kennedy's head fly off-that he was even aware of the black man standing next to him "taking off". On top of all this, you are making an enormous lot out of nothing! Big deal that Hudson got some of the details wrong about his actions during a murder right in front of him! You maybe want to do some research on the affects of going into shock has on the human body.
Personally I think bending quickly at the knees is the fastest way to drop your head height 5 in or so. That's about how much he drops through the pyracantha bush. In fact bending the knees is the first thing you do when dropping to the ground. Dropping quickly into a bent knee stance is very stable and I have no idea why you think it would be so hard. Regardless, the issue of what he was doing in Z frame 413 does not change the fact that he was standing during the shots.
I fully accept people's stories can get screwed up when witnessing a shocking event. But that is really my point. We cannot trust his account of where the shots came from when he is so completely wrong about how he heard them. Specifically saying he could tell very well where tthe shot came from BECAUSE he was down on the ground
When he was not on the ground makes
his testimony unreliable.
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This possibility was also recognized by the Warren Commission in its discussion of the number of shots that were fired (Warren Report, p. 111). The testimony of Emmett Joseph Hudson may illustrate the difficulty of finding facts based on the recollections of witnesses, especially these who have had the opportunity to read about the events in newspapers or who may have been led to change their testimony by the manner in which they were questioned at the time of the assassination. Hudson was located in front of the stockade fence on the grassy knoll, in a position where he may have been expected to have heard distinctly any shot fired from the knoll. (See JFK exhibit F-129 I, HSCA-JFK hearings, 109). Hudson gave as sworn statement to the Sheriff's Department of Dallas County on November 22, 1963. He said he was in Dealey Plaza, sitting on the steps in front of the stockade fence, facing Elm Street, during the time of the assassination. He heard three shots. They came "from behind and above me." (Emphasis added.) (XIX Warren hearings, 481.)
Hudson's testimony would seem to mean "from behind the fence," and his statement has been so understood (J. Thompson, "Six Seconds in Dallas" (Berkeley, Calif.: Berkeley Medallion Books, 1976), appendix A, witness No. 75.
Hudson gave a depositon to the Warren Commission on July 22, 1964; he told counsel the third "shot was coming from above and kind of behind." (VII Warren hearings, 560.) Counsel then asked: "You heard it come from sort of behind the motorcade and then above?" (Emphasis added.) Hudson answered, "Yes." (Ibid.) Hudson answered, "Well, it sounded like it was high, you know, from above and kind of behind like--in other words, to the left" (Ibid.) Counsel asked, "And that would have fit in with the Texas School Book Depository, wouldn't it?" (Ibid.) Hudson replied, "Yes." (Ibid.)
Hudson also indicated that he saw the second shot hit the President in the head "a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear" on the right side. (Id. at 560.) According to his testimony, he was lying on the ground facing Elm when the third shot was fired. (Ibid.) He also felt that the first shot was fired shortly after the motorcade had turned off Houston onto Elm at about the first lightpost on Elm on the right (id. at 559); the second--that hit the President in the head--came a little later, near the second lightpost on Elm on the right (id. at 560); and the third occurred at about the steps leading down to Elm Street that he was standing on (id. at 561). According to Hudson, the third shot must have hit the President in the neck. (Ibid.)
If the scientific evidence summarized in the text is correct, Hudson must be wrong in some aspects of his testimony. According to the scientific evidence, the first shot missed, and it was fired shortly after the President's limousine turned onto Elm. The scientific evidence indicated, moreover, that the second shot hit
Page 606
the President in the neck, not the head, when the limousine was between the first and second lightposts; it also indicated the President was hit in the head not by the second, but by the fourth shot, at the point when the limousine was between the third and fourth shots, Hudson is seen still standing, not lying down as he remembers.
In summary, Hudson was wrong about which shots hit the President in the head and neck, the location of the limousine at each shot and his own body position at the time of the shooting.
It may will be that Hudson's understanding of what happened was influenced by the newspapers after he had given his November statement to the Sheriff's Department. At two points during the July deposition, he indicated in answers that he had read newspapers that said that the President had been hit twice (id. at 561) and that had carried Hudson's pictures in them (id. at 563).
He may also have been led to alter his first statement by the way in which he was questioned by counsel, who have him an interpretation of his prior statement to the Sheriff's Department and of his own testimony in the deposition that led him to testify in a fashion consistent with what was then generally will known: Oswald had fired three shots from the depository. When Hudson was contacted by the committee, he told his story in words virtually identical to those he had used in his deposition 15 years ago. He added, "Everything I told the Warren Commission was correct." (Outside contact report with Emmett Joseph Hudson, Feb. 3, 1979, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Document 014458).) Hudson, now 71, had heard for years about the controversy about a shot from the knoll; he does not think that one was fired from behind the stockade fence. (Ibid.)
Hudson himself also recognized the other key factor that affects most of the testimony of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza-he noted that "it was just such an exciting time...", Warren hearings, VII p. 465.
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/references1-jfk.html
JohnM
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I think that Hoffman & Co usually reckon that the paling-fence-shooter was about 12 ft from the corner, in which case the headshot would have missed Hudson's left earhole by less than 8 ft.
Anyhow, Hudson said that there was no shot from the fence.
Nearly forgot, this here pix shows that there is no shooter behind the fence, or, the shooter was hidden by that tree (in which case he could not have fired the headshot at Z313).
Hmmmm -- i suppose that he could have fired at Z313, if the slug grazed the bark on the lhs of the tree (his lhs, our rhs).
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjpC4XJF/hudson-8ft-from-shot3.jpg)
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I think that Hoffman & Co usually reckon that the paling-fence-shooter was about 12 ft from the corner, in which case the headshot would have missed Hudson's left earhole by less than 8 ft.
Anyhow, Hudson said that there was no shot from the fence.
Nearly forgot, this here pix shows that there is no shooter behind the fence, or, the shooter was hidden by that tree (in which case he could not have fired the headshot at Z313).
Hmmmm -- i suppose that he could have fired at Z313, if the slug grazed the bark on the lhs of the tree (his lhs, our rhs).
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjpC4XJF/hudson-8ft-from-shot3.jpg)
Hoffman put the shooter way down near the west end of the fence. The more common knoll shooter location is 15 ft west of the east end of the fence. Your red arrow on the right is accurate for that. The tree does not get in the way for that knoll position.
The fence is 5ft tall and the branches are only 8 inches above the fence. Only 8 inches of the shooter would be visible. Actually there was a branch hanging down right there so the shooter would be almost completely hidden. That fuzzy photo does not allow us to see if those 8" dark images above the fence and below the branches are people or not.
I think it would be possible for the gunman to step back and retract his rifle in 2 seconds while everyone was still stunned by what they saw. I think almost every single person would have their eyes on the president at the moment of the head shot. So I also don't buy the popular argument of a knoll shooter being too visible.
On the other hand I think the sound would be an issue as Husdon and Mudd should hear it clearer than almost anyone. A shooter 15 ft from the east end would still pass close, about 7 feet from Hoffman, and 9 ft from Mudd. Mudd is the guy on the left in the Moorman photo.
I consider each different part of the knoll shooter theory and let them stand or fall on their own merit. Visiblity, rifle sound, egress, trajectory/wounds, I do not argue any single point as a final conclusion.
Prior to seeing how inconsistent Hudson's recounting of events was I thought his testimony carried some weight. The only possible reasons he would miss a shot from that close is the last two shots being very close together with the TSB shot being first and the knoll shot overlapping and sounding like reverberation from the first shot which he would recognize as coming from the TSB, imo.
In another thread you claimed the knoll smoke seen from by RR guys was actually Oswald's smoke from the 6th floor. You claimed that the knoll position was on higher ground as Oswald was as if the two locations would line up vertically. You provided no math to prove it and it turns out it is very wrong. Ground level at the fence and at the overpass when standing next to the hand rail is within one foot of the fence ground level. Oswald's perch was about 50 feet higher!. The RR guys were looking about level to the top of the fence and Oswald's smoke was nowhere near it. Oswald was also 10 degrees away from the fence laterally. Below is a clip of Holland and Mark lane on the overpass and looking to the fence, go to 1:57. Even if you consider the smoke extended maybe 10 feet out laterally it is very far from Oswald's position. Holland and the others could never have made such a huge mistake.
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Hoffman put the shooter way down near the west end of the fence. The more common knoll shooter location is 15 ft west of the east end of the fence. Your red arrow on the right is accurate for that. The tree does not get in the way for that knoll position.
The fence is 5ft tall and the branches are only 8 inches above the fence. Only 8 inches of the shooter would be visible. Actually there was a branch hanging down right there so the shooter would be almost completely hidden. That fuzzy photo does not allow us to see if those 8" dark images above the fence and below the branches are people or not.
I think it would be possible for the gunman to step back and retract his rifle in 2 seconds while everyone was still stunned by what they saw. I think almost every single person would have their eyes on the president at the moment of the head shot. So I also don't buy the popular argument of a knoll shooter being too visible.
On the other hand I think the sound would be an issue as Husdon and Mudd should hear it clearer than almost anyone. A shooter 15 ft from the east end would still pass close, about 7 feet from Hoffman, and 9 ft from Mudd. Mudd is the guy on the left in the Moorman photo.
I consider each different part of the knoll shooter theory and let them stand or fall on their own merit. Visiblity, rifle sound, egress, trajectory/wounds, I do not argue any single point as a final conclusion.
Prior to seeing how inconsistent Hudson's recounting of events was I thought his testimony carried some weight. The only possible reasons he would miss a shot from that close is the last two shots being very close together with the TSB shot being first and the knoll shot overlapping and sounding like reverberation from the first shot which he would recognize as coming from the TSB, imo.
In another thread you claimed the knoll smoke seen from by RR guys was actually Oswald's smoke from the 6th floor. You claimed that the knoll position was on higher ground as Oswald was as if the two locations would line up vertically. You provided no math to prove it and it turns out it is very wrong. Ground level at the fence and at the overpass when standing next to the hand rail is within one foot of the fence ground level. Oswald's perch was about 50 feet higher!. The RR guys were looking about level to the top of the fence and Oswald's smoke was nowhere near it. Oswald was also 10 degrees away from the fence laterally. Below is a clip of Holland and Mark lane on the overpass and looking to the fence, go to 1:57. Even if you consider the smoke extended maybe 10 feet out laterally it is very far from Oswald's position. Holland and the others could never have made such a huge mistake.
Yes it seems i have stuffed up the names of the 3 guys on the steps.
In another thread here i did mention/show that Holland's line to the smoke from Oswald's 2 shots wasn’t a million miles from/above that fence, but i was just saying.
I reckon that the supposed smoke near the fence was never near the fence, it was the smoke from Hickey's 6 shot burst (the smoke would have been in & behind the Queen Mary).
On the other hand an earlier comment of mine said that the shots (6 ovem) & echos might have shaken some dust offa the leaves on the lower branches (the carpark was gravelled & dust would have built up over the years).
I will bump my thread re smoke.
And i will bump my thread re Hoffman & his view of the smoke.
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Yes it seems i have stuffed up the names of the 3 guys on the steps.
In another thread here i did mention/show that Holland's line to the smoke from Oswald's 2 shots wasn’t a million miles from/above that fence, but i was just saying.
I reckon that the supposed smoke near the fence was never near the fence, it was the smoke from Hickey's 6 shot burst (the smoke would have been in & behind the Queen Mary).
On the other hand an earlier comment of mine said that the shots (6 ovem) & echos might have shaken some dust offa the leaves on the lower branches (the carpark was gravelled & dust would have built up over the years).
I will bump my thread re smoke.
And i will bump my thread re Hoffman & his view of the smoke.
They were looking straight towards the limo then looked 20 degrees to the left to see the smoke. No way they thought smoke from the follow up car was from the knoll. Another claim is they just saw smoke from Heygood's bike when he dumped it but he did not show up till the RR guys were already running to the knoll, way after the head shot. Also film footage shows his bike did not put out visible smoke which is the more common result if you don't tip it a full 90 degrees or more.
No way dust was shaken off the leaves. It had just rained that morning and there were blustery winds moving the trees around. Not to mention the shot would have been 70 ft away from the trees.
You seem to be throwing up far out explanations up to see what sticks. If you give a credible explanation I will respond but this is getting too far fetched for me.
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They were looking straight towards the limo then looked 20 degrees to the left to see the smoke. No way they thought smoke from the follow up car was from the knoll. Another claim is they just saw smoke from Heygood's bike when he dumped it but he did not show up till the RR guys were already running to the knoll, way after the head shot. Also film footage shows his bike did not put out visible smoke which is the more common result if you don't tip it a full 90 degrees or more.
No way dust was shaken off the leaves. It had just rained that morning and there were blustery winds moving the trees around. Not to mention the shot would have been 70 ft away from the trees.
You seem to be throwing up far out explanations up to see what sticks. If you give a credible explanation I will respond but this is getting too far fetched for me.
Yes it had rained.
One of the RR guys on the triple underpass said that there was no smoke near the fence, & that the other RR guys were crazy. He said that there was smoke down at the road.
There is no factual record of any RR guys running to the carpark at an early time.
But there is factual evidence that they were all fixed until a very very very very very late time.
There were 10 RR gawkers on the triple underpass, plus 2 police. And 3 RR gawkers on the abutment of the triple underpass. Making 15 witnesses in all in that area. Plus whathisname in the RR building. None of them saw any activity in the carpark.