JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Tom Scully on March 01, 2018, 03:45:02 PM
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The following images prove the 1953 installation of the TSBD rooftop sign predating the Hertz sign
required installation of separate electric utility meter and power supply to the roof. Uhler & Co. outdoor sign
built and erected the 1953 Ford sign and the 1962 Pearl Beer waterfall billboard visible from Stemmons Freeway.
If, as some assert, there was a power interruption inside TSBD as the presidential motorcade approached and passed,
it was not related to an external electric utility power supply interruption.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HertzSignPreDatedbyForda.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HertzSignPreDatedbyFordb.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HertzSignPreDatedbyFordc.jpg)
I posted about the similar power requirements and description of the Hertz sign at this link.:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,269.msg7590.html#msg7590
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Your article is Specific as to ROOFTOP Power/Meter. NOT Power supplied Throughout/Inside the TSBD building in general. It's possible that the Immense Power/Meter were Specifically directed to the TSBD Roof/Sign for both Technical & Billing purposes.
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Great. So the sign was not powered by batteries. No one has ever argued that it is not possible to turn the power off to specific parts of the building via the internal circuit box. You can do that in your own home. The broader issue is whether the power was off in the entire building and if I understand Tom's information correctly that can't be the case if the sign is operational. So the fact that the sign was functioning as of 12:30 suggests there was no external source power outage throughout the building. The narrower issue of whether the freight elevators were operational can then be addressed by specific record examples of their being used by Baker/Truly and Mooney. If there was an internal power outage directed solely at these elevators, that would strongly imply a conspiratorial effort as there is no apparent explanation or evidence for anyone else to have done this. In fact, the police were using those elevators. So then we are left to puzzle out why any conspirator would have taken the significant risk to remain in the building for ten minutes or more after the assassination to briefly turn the power off to the elevator. And that simply doesn't add up. Particularly if Mooney is the sole example since he was heading up (and not down) well after the assassination. And there were already police officers on the upper floors. It doesn't make any narrative sense as part of a planned event. John I. with his Inspector Clouseau approach of suspecting everyone and suspecting no one seems to leave open the possibility of a coincidental power outage not linked to a conspiracy. But that would be difficult to square with an internal power cut to the elevator which must have been initiated by someone from within the building. That would have to be an intentional action on behalf of someone for some apparent purpose rather than a random event.
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LOL, Tom just refuted Richard's silly argument and Richard doesn't even realize it.
"separate electric utility meter and power supply to the roof"
That means it's completely independent of any power inside the building itself.
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LOL, Tom just refuted Richard's silly argument and Richard doesn't even realize it.
"separate electric utility meter and power supply to the roof"
That means it's completely independent of any power inside the building itself.
LOL. Where in the article does it say that the sign had "separate electric utility meter and power supply" from the building and would continue to function even if the power went out to the building? At least you are backing off the claim that this sign was battery powered. The article cited also does not address the Hertz sign but a sign placed there a decade earlier. Simply saying it had a separate meter does not mean the power would have been on to the sign if the power source were cut to the entire building. It does not mean it was "completely independent of any power inside the building". Coming from Mr. Everything is an Assumption that it a very humorous highlighting both your dishonesty and stupidity. If you read the article it says nothing along those lines. It just says the Ford sign used a lot of power.
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LOL. Where in the article does it say that the sign had "separate electric utility meter and power supply" from the building and would continue to function even if the power went out to the building?
Are you for real?
From 1953, the infrastructure was in place on the TSBD roof for a devoted high voltage power line on its own independent circuit and utility meter
At least you are backing off the claim that this sign was battery powered.
I never claimed that. That was Walt. I asked you how you knew it wasn't. You didn't know -- you just assumed it. Tom to his credit bailed you out.
The article cited also does not address the Hertz sign but a sign placed there a decade earlier. Simply saying it had a separate meter does not mean the power would have been on to the sign if the power source were cut to the entire building.
Sure, but not only are you convinced for no good reason that the power to the sign was dependent on the power to the building, but you also somehow convinced yourself that somebody argued that power was cut to the entire building.
It does not mean it was "completely independent of any power inside the building".
Do you know how electric meters work? For them to be metered separately, they have to be isolated.
Coming from Mr. Everything is an Assumption that it a very humorous highlighting both your dishonesty and stupidity.
Like clockwork. If all else fails, start flinging insults.
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Are you for real?
LOL. You are citing Tom's interpretation of the article. His opinion. It is not contained in the article itself. Try actually reading the article posted and distinguishing that from Tom's commentary.
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LOL. You are citing Tom's interpretation of the article. His opinion. It is not contained in the article itself. Try actually reading the article posted and distinguishing that from Tom's commentary.
Tom saves your lazy ass from having to do your own research and this is how you repay him.
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Tom saves your lazy ass from having to do your own research and this is how you repay him.
Tut-tut with the language Johnny. I'm simply pointing out that you erroneously conflated the information in the article with Tom's commentary. Either out of pure stupidity or intentional dishonesty. It does not say what you claimed. Tom did nothing wrong. He simply expressed his interpretation of the information contained in article. A substantive opinion that may or may not be true. You, however, stated that information as being a fact when it is not. Perhaps in your childish desire to be right about something after being wrong about everything in this discussion so far.
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I'm sure Tom will be along shortly to set you straight. Tom has a track record of honest and thorough research. You have a track record of making unsupported claims, strawman arguments, and insulting people. Figuring out who is more reliable is not a difficult proposition. But anything to distract from your silly argument about the Hertz sign, right?
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The following images prove the 1953 installation of the TSBD rooftop sign predating the Hertz sign
required installation of separate electric utility meter and power supply to the roof. Uhler & Co. outdoor sign
built and erected the 1953 Ford sign and the 1962 Pearl Beer waterfall billboard visible from Stemmons Freeway.
If, as some assert, there was a power interruption inside TSBD as the presidential motorcade approached and passed,
it was not related to an external electric utility power supply interruption.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HertzSignPreDatedbyForda.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HertzSignPreDatedbyFordb.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HertzSignPreDatedbyFordc.jpg)
I posted about the similar power requirements and description of the Hertz sign at this link.:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,269.msg7590.html#msg7590
"The following images prove the 1953 installation of the TSBD rooftop sign predating the Hertz sign
required installation of separate electric utility meter and power supply to the roof."
Tom,
As Richard has noted , your commentary does not seem to be supported by the images that you've posted. How have you determined that the 1953 installation of the TSBD rooftop sign predating the Hertz sign required installation of separate electric utility meter and power supply to the roof?
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Worth noting that Richard's claim that Mooney didn't known how to work the controls of the elevator remains unsupported.
And vice versa.
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I'm sure Tom will be along shortly to set you straight. Tom has a track record of honest and thorough research. You have a track record of making unsupported claims, strawman arguments, and insulting people. Figuring out who is more reliable is not a difficult proposition. But anything to distract from your silly argument about the Hertz sign, right?
Says the guy who just dishonestly quoted the language contained in the article even after it was pointed out to him that this information was not contained in the article cited. My understanding is that Tom does not believe there was a power outage and that it couldn't have been an external power outage. Something you - not me - takes issue with. In terms of insulting remarks, if you want to whine about that then I would encourage anyone to look at your posts in this thread.
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Worth noting that Richard's claim that Mooney didn't known how to work the controls of the elevator remains unsupported.
It is a plausible inference drawn from the facts. This elevator is working fine. It comes down to the first floor where Mooney and his passengers get on. Mooney and his passengers take it to the second floor (thus the power must be working fine). Once his passengers - the folks who work in the building and know how the elevator works get off - he suddenly can't get it to work. It is an freight elevator in a warehouse. It's entirely plausible that he couldn't operate it. He honestly but erroneously assumed this was because the power was out because he didn't know what didn't know about operating the elevator. I can't prove that to your subjective satisfaction but it is a plausible premise given the facts. What you are alleging is not plausible. In fact it is absurd. That a conspirator hung around for some unknown reason cutting the power to this elevator with the DPD pouring into the building. Risky with no apparent reason to do so.
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Mooney testified, under oath as the nutters love to emphasize, as follows:
Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. [...]
How long will you continue making a fool of yourself?
(not that it bothers me)
Suck it up and move on.
Have you ever operated one of those old freight elevators?
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Mooney testified, under oath as the nutters love to emphasize, as follows:
Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. [...]
How long will you continue making a fool of yourself?
(not that it bothers me)
Suck it up and move on.
Just because you are as equally ignorant of how the freight elevators operated as Mooney is not very compelling for your argument. It is humorous though. The blind leading the blind. I don't have any doubt that Mooney honestly but erroneously thought the elevator didn't work due to a power loss. He didn't know what he didn't know. Much like yourself.
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Just because you are as equally ignorant of how the freight elevators operated as Mooney is not very compelling for your argument. It is humorous though. The blind leading the blind. I don't have any doubt that Mooney honestly but erroneously thought the elevator didn't work due to a power loss. He didn't know what he didn't know. Much like yourself.
"because we had no more power on the elevator."
Seems he knew more than yourself. Keep paddling, Richard.
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"because we had no more power on the elevator."
Seems he knew more than yourself. Keep paddling, Richard.
You are not understanding the point. No one is debating whether Mooney thought the reason for the elevator not to function was because the power was out. That was his conclusion. He may have been wrong because he didn't understand what he was doing wrong after his passengers open the gate and get out. I can't make it any clearer than that for you. Mooney attributed the elevator stoppage to a power outage. That doesn't mean he knew more than anyone else why it wasn't working. It's the conclusion he drew. For which there are other plausible explanations than a power outage. It could be as simple as not shutting the gate or failing to shut it properly after the passengers exit because he was not familiar with that particular freight elevator. I honestly don't see how anyone could rule that out. Why don't you help us here by stating when you think this power outage started, how long it lasted, whether it was part of some planned event initiated by conspirators, and if so, its intended purpose? It would be helpful to understand what is being suggested rather than just insisting it must be so because that is what Mooney said. Even if that is contradicted by all the other facts and logic.
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How would that affect Mooney's ability to operate an old freight elevator?
Why not just answer the question? Have you ever operated one of those old freight elevators?
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Which one of those are you referring to?
Any freight elevator similar to either of the two in the TSBD in 1963.
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Let me get this straight, Mooney was on Main street when he heard the shots and from there he runs to the railroad yard then hangs for a few seconds and then runs to the depository where he locates the west elevator and then along with two ladies who want to go to the 2nd floor, they all proceed up to the 2nd floor. Mooney then attempts to continue up the elevator but it doesn't work which he attributes to having no power.
So a few minutes after the assassination and presumably just a few seconds after the two ladies had left the elevator after arriving at their floor, Mooney's elevator picks this completely random exact point in time to suddenly stop working, geez what are the chances?
Conclusion.
1. For some unspecified reason the conspirators decided to turn off the elevator many minutes after the assassination.
2. Mooney didn't know how to operate the west elevator which had double gates.
JohnM
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Astronomical?
Possibly.
JohnM
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I haven't been up close to any of the two you mention but from the pictures I've seen I would say no.
So?
So you have seen pictures that show how each elevator operates, could you post a link? Thanks in advance!
JohnM
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Did Adams not know how to operate a passenger elevator?
Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.
Or a freight elevator?
Miss ADAMS - I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.
Did Adams know how to use the freight elevator?
Johnm
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That's not what I said.
Perhaps if you stopped trying to be vague and cryptic then maybe we could have a better chance of interpreting your posts, just saying.
JohnM
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I answered Tim.
Did you?
JohnM
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BELIN forgot to ask her.
Sure, it could have been any one of a thousand questions BELIN could have asked, but on the 22nd Roy Truly who is essentially the Texas School Book Depository Expert with decades of experience in that building....
Mr. TRULY. I went to work for the Texas School Book Depository in July 1934.
Mr. BELIN. And have you been employed by the Texas School Book Depository since that date, since July 1934?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
.....confirms there were elevators operating just after the assassination.
Mr. TRULY. Well, I started around towards the stairway, and then I noted that this east elevator was there. So I told the officer, "Come on, here is an elevator," and then we ran down to the east side, and got on the east elevator.
Mr. BELIN. Could you put the letter "T" at the end of that line, please?
All right.
Now, where did you go with the east elevator, to what floor?
Mr. TRULY. We rode the east elevator to the seventh floor.
(https://s17.postimg.org/rb267nofz/ce_487.jpg)
JohnM
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(https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/files/2017/11/Nothing-to-See-15a34a2fc727c8.jpg)
No sinister power failure. I there was one at all.
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Sure, it could have been any one of a thousand questions BELIN could have asked, but on the 22nd Roy Truly who is essentially the Texas School Book Depository Expert with decades of experience in that building....
.....confirms there were elevators operating just after the assassination.
Mr. TRULY. Well, I started around towards the stairway, and then I noted that this east elevator was there. So I told the officer, "Come on, here is an elevator," and then we ran down to the east side, and got on the east elevator.
Mr. BELIN. Could you put the letter "T" at the end of that line, please?
All right.
Now, where did you go with the east elevator, to what floor?
Mr. TRULY. We rode the east elevator to the seventh floor.
(https://s17.postimg.org/rb267nofz/ce_487.jpg)
JohnM
How convenient for his co conspirators Truly the KKK member takes the police past the floor where the cover up is taking place, and blocks the only lift which is not powered off in the building
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Did Adams not know how to operate a passenger elevator?
Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.
Or a freight elevator?
Miss ADAMS - I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.
And here is proof that someone was messing with the power switches, elevators not moving, phones not working, and torches required to search dues to no lights on the 6th, this is one hell of a guy our Oswald how in gods name did he accomplish so many tasks?
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Did Adams not know how to operate a passenger elevator?
Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.
Or a freight elevator?
Miss ADAMS - I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.
Adams wasn't on the passenger elevator. She pushed the button for it and it didn't come. In the aftermath of the assassination the police were in the building using these very same elevators that you claim had no power (e.g. Sawyer takes the passenger elevator up and down around 12:36 with no problem). There are multiple examples of both the passenger and freight elevators in operation at this time. That means they had power. Given the quirks of the freight elevators, it is plausible that gates were left opened, elevators were occupied or held by police on the upper floors, and some folks using them were unfamiliar with how they operated etc.
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Your short attention span has become a real problem to you. Repeat:
Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.
In the aftermath of the assassination the police were in the building using these very same elevators that you claim had no power.
I never claimed they had no power. That was reported by Mooney and Adams.
Given the quirks of the freight elevators, it is plausible that gates were left unopened, elevators were occupied or held by police on the upper floors, and some folks using them were unfamiliar with how they operated etc.
Unopened? I hope that's a typo or you have completely lost track of what's being discussed; Mooney was on that west elevator.
Your claims remain unsupported: Mooney said he used the controls and got to second. Adams worked in that building.
I don't follow what you are now babbling about. Adams was not on the passenger elevator. She pushed the button to call it but it apparently did not show up. She did attribute this to a power cut but there is no indication why. For example, how long did she wait? It's not compelling or conclusive absent more details. Yes, a typo. I will change that for you if it makes you feel better. In the rush to search the building, police were likely not to be concerned with elevator etiquette and may have left gates open etc.
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BELIN forgot to ask her.
These WC Lock Steppers had in depth conversations/depositions with Witnesses BEFORE taking their WC Sworn Testimony. ANY question Not asked was AVOIDED because the WC Hack asking the question Knew the answer would Not aid their goal.
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Absolutely, Royell. This is one of my favorites:
Mr. BELIN. Now, I did interview you approximately 2 weeks ago in Dallas, more or less?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. At that time what is the fact as to whether or not I went into extended questions and answers as contrasted with just asking you to tell me about certain areas as to what happened? I mean, I questioned you, of course, but was it more along the lines of just asking you to tell me what happened, or more along the lines of interrogation, the interrogation we are doing now?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Which one?
Mr. DAY. Wait a minute now. Say that again. I am at a loss.
Pack of liars and fabricators.
The above you supplied is Hilarious. It's like Abbot & Costello doing, "Who's On First?". 2 Double Talkers "Lost In Translation".
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Says the guy who just dishonestly quoted the language contained in the article even after it was pointed out to him that this information was not contained in the article cited.
I didn't dishonestly do anything. I quoted Tom's post in a reply. He's more credible than you because he does actual research. All you do is insult people and make up strawman arguments.
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It is a plausible inference drawn from the facts. This elevator is working fine. It comes down to the first floor where Mooney and his passengers get on. Mooney and his passengers take it to the second floor (thus the power must be working fine). Once his passengers - the folks who work in the building and know how the elevator works get off - he suddenly can't get it to work. It is an freight elevator in a warehouse. It's entirely plausible that he couldn't operate it.
It's only "plausible" because that's the way you want it to be. Mooney said "we had no more power on the elevator". Deal with it.
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You are not understanding the point. No one is debating whether Mooney thought the reason for the elevator not to function was because the power was out. That was his conclusion.
And we should prefer Richard Smith's conclusion, because . . . ?
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So a few minutes after the assassination and presumably just a few seconds after the two ladies had left the elevator after arriving at their floor, Mooney's elevator picks this completely random exact point in time to suddenly stop working, geez what are the chances?
The same as the chances of any power outage happening at any particular time.
Conclusion.
1. For some unspecified reason the conspirators decided to turn off the elevator many minutes after the assassination.
2. Mooney didn't know how to operate the west elevator which had double gates.
False dichotomy.
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Sure, it could have been any one of a thousand questions BELIN could have asked, but on the 22nd Roy Truly who is essentially the Texas School Book Depository Expert with decades of experience in that building....
.....confirms there were elevators operating just after the assassination.
Is that somehow supposed to tell you anything about whether the elevators had power when Mooney and Adams tried them?
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(e.g. Sawyer takes the passenger elevator up and down around 12:36 with no problem).
How do you know this was around 12:36?
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I don't follow what you are now babbling about. Adams was not on the passenger elevator. She pushed the button to call it but it apparently did not show up. She did attribute this to a power cut but there is no indication why. For example, how long did she wait? It's not compelling or conclusive absent more details. Yes, a typo. I will change that for you if it makes you feel better. In the rush to search the building, police were likely not to be concerned with elevator etiquette and may have left gates open etc.
Did the passenger elevator have a gate?
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I've never seen a passenger elevator that did not at least have an indicator light showing when it's running or being called but now you invent a new desperate claim that she was too stupid to differentiate between the elevator being busy and being out of power.
The indicator lights coincidentally burned out at just that moment. The odds must be astronomical...
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The same as the chances of any power outage happening at any particular time.
False dichotomy.
The same as the chances of any power outage happening at any particular time.
Precisely.
False dichotomy.
Geez what are the chances that whenever Iacoletti sees a possible two choices he'll present this tired old chestnut! Yawn!
JohnM
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Is that somehow supposed to tell you anything about whether the elevators had power when Mooney and Adams tried them?
That's not the point, I haven't yet seen any presented reason for the conspirators to manipulate the power so long after the assassination and as you said "The same as the chances of any power outage happening at any particular time.", sh!t happens!
JohnM
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Geez what are the chances that whenever Iacoletti sees a possible two choices he'll present this tired old chestnut! Yawn!
Only when you trot out your old chestnut of pretending like there are only 2 possibilities.
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That's not the point, I haven't yet seen any presented reason for the conspirators to manipulate the power so long after the assassination and as you said "The same as the chances of any power outage happening at any particular time.", sh!t happens!
What conspirators? Why is Richard so emotionally invested in there not being a power outage?
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I hadn't noticed if it was said in the thread already but which floor is the power for the elevators on.? Point being, is it possible that the conspirator turned the power off on the way out the door, as a way to slow down anyone from going upstairs (or down) in a hastily manner.?
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It's only "plausible" because that's the way you want it to be. Mooney said "we had no more power on the elevator". Deal with it.
Again, for the tenth time, no one disputes that Mooney thought there was a power outage. But that doesn't make it so. There are other plausible alternatives that have been laid out ad nauseam. Deal with that Inspector Ding-a-Ling.
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Did the passenger elevator have a gate?
LOL. Not relevant because Adams didn't get on the passenger elevator. Her difficulty wasn't getting it to move like Mooney. It simply didn't show up when she called it. From that she ASS-u-med (one of your favorite words) that it didn't come because of a power outage.
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How do you know this was around 12:36?
What time do you think it happened? That is the time attributed to it in Reclaiming History. Could it be off by a minute or two? Possibly but no apparent relevance. The obvious point is that Sawyer took the passenger elevator up and then back down in this timeframe. Confirming that it was working and had power.
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What conspirators? Why is Richard so emotionally invested in there not being a power outage?
I've explained this one as well. Several of your nutty kindred have suggested the power outage was the result of the efforts of conspirators. If you don't like that claim, take it up with them but not me for addressing it. I've also said multiple times that if you want to erroneously believe there was a power outage but that it had no implications for a conspiracy, that is fine with me. My only objection is to anyone suggesting there was a power outage (a falsehood) to support the notion of a conspiracy. Don't care a bit though if someone wants to believe it was just some random event with no relevance to who assassinated JFK. It would just be an unimportant matter of fact. Like whether John Wilkes Booth's horse was brown or black. Are you saying that you do not believe the power outage was originated by or proves any conspiracy in this case?
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Only when you trot out your old chestnut of pretending like there are only 2 possibilities.
Of course there is always other possibilities like aliens focused their radiation beam on the Elevator, time travellers sabotaged the Elevator or perhaps a rat gained the ability for sentient thought and pulled the Elevator fuse?
But in the here and now I work on logical scenarios, on the other hand you seem to be promoting a 3rd scenario that relies on a random temporary blackout at the exact point in time when Mooney was trying to operate the Elevator but who reported the lights going out or was your blackout specifically targeting the Elevators?
JohnM
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What conspirators? Why is Richard so emotionally invested in there not being a power outage?
If there was a power outage then wouldn't the building lights go out and with so many people in the building at the time who gave testimony surely you can support your "power outage" theory? LOL
JohnM
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The indicator lights coincidentally burned out at just that moment. The odds must be astronomical...
Show us where she says the indicator light burned out.
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I hadn't noticed if it was said in the thread already but which floor is the power for the elevators on.? Point being, is it possible that the conspirator turned the power off on the way out the door, as a way to slow down anyone from going upstairs (or down) in a hastily manner.?
By stopping the elevators you direct everyone to the stairs, what does that achieve?
Hang on Iacoletti expects more options like maybe the sniper was waiting for his helicopter or maybe he rappelled down the elevator shaft or perhaps he needed time to self emolliate?
JohnM
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maybe he rappelled down the elevator shaft
JohnM
That is one hell of a theory and very viable, it would be a great escape route, to avoid detection.
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Again, for the tenth time, no one disputes that Mooney thought there was a power outage. But that doesn't make it so. There are other plausible alternatives that have been laid out ad nauseam. Deal with that Inspector Ding-a-Ling.
"Richard wants it to be true" does not make something "plausible".
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LOL. Not relevant because Adams didn't get on the passenger elevator. Her difficulty wasn't getting it to move like Mooney. It simply didn't show up when she called it. From that she ASS-u-med (one of your favorite words) that it didn't come because of a power outage.
Your mindreading skills continue to amaze me. Why would she immediately leap to "power outage" solely based on an elevator not coming? It must have been some mass power outage hysteria affecting multiple people.
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What time do you think it happened? That is the time attributed to it in Reclaiming History.
Oh, well that settles it. ::)
Could it be off by a minute or two? Possibly but no apparent relevance. The obvious point is that Sawyer took the passenger elevator up and then back down in this timeframe. Confirming that it was working and had power.
Define "timeframe".
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I've explained this one as well. Several of your nutty kindred have suggested the power outage was the result of the efforts of conspirators. If you don't like that claim, take it up with them but not me for addressing it. I've also said multiple times that if you want to erroneously believe there was a power outage but that it had no implications for a conspiracy, that is fine with me. My only objection is to anyone suggesting there was a power outage (a falsehood) to support the notion of a conspiracy. Don't care a bit though if someone wants to believe it was just some random event with no relevance to who assassinated JFK. It would just be an unimportant matter of fact.
Then why do you state as fact that it's an "erroneous" belief and a "falsehood"? Just because you're arrogant?
Also please quote anybody stating as a fact that the power outage was the result of the efforts of conspirators. All I said was that multiple people reported power outages inside the building, which you then tried to dismiss because the Hertz sign was on at 12:30.
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Your mindreading skills continue to amaze me. Why would she immediately leap to "power outage" solely based on an elevator not coming? It must have been some mass power outage hysteria affecting multiple people.
If it was so obvious that there was no power then why bother pushing any buttons?
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do ?
Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.
JohnM
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Of course there is always other possibilities like aliens focused their radiation beam on the Elevator, time travellers sabotaged the Elevator or perhaps a rat gained the ability for sentient thought and pulled the Elevator fuse?
Strawmen and false appeal to ridicule. How about the possibility that there actually was a power outage that prevented Mooney from using the elevator, which is why he said there was.
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If there was a power outage then wouldn't the building lights go out and with so many people in the building at the time who gave testimony surely you can support your "power outage" theory? LOL
How Richard-Smith-ian of you. So you also think that any outage had to have affected every electrical system not only in the building but in all of downtown Dallas.
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Show us where she says the indicator light burned out.
I was mocking Mytton's "astronomical odds" argument. I'm not surprised that flew right over your head.
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By stopping the elevators you direct everyone to the stairs, what does that achieve?
Hang on Iacoletti expects more options like maybe the sniper was waiting for his helicopter or maybe he rappelled down the elevator shaft or perhaps he needed time to self emolliate?
How about an option that doesn't assume that people are such idiots that they can't figure out how to work an elevator (especially an employee in the building), just because it suits your predetermined conclusion.
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If it was so obvious that there was no power then why bother pushing any buttons?
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do ?
Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.
Why do people push elevator buttons multiple times?
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I was mocking Mytton's "astronomical odds" argument. I'm not surprised that flew right over your head.
Hahahaha, the joke's on you, if you go back my original quote was "close to astronomical" which in itself is absurd and was in fact taking the Piss out of you and your team, and tbph I'm not surprised that you missed the my delicious irony. LOL!
JohnM
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Then why do you state as fact that it's an "erroneous" belief and a "falsehood"? Just because you're arrogant?
Also please quote anybody stating as a fact that the power outage was the result of the efforts of conspirators. All I said was that multiple people reported power outages inside the building, which you then tried to dismiss because the Hertz sign was on at 12:30.
There are numerous examples in these threads of individuals alleging the power outage was the result of efforts of the conspirators. Let's try to clarify your position on this for once. Are you ruling out that any power outage was the result of the efforts of a conspiracy or not? You seem to want to have it both ways as it suits you. If you rule out the possibility of an external power outage and dispute that anyone is suggesting any conspirator turned the power off, but contend that there still was a power outage it is difficult to understand what you are suggesting happened. There isn't much else to explain why the power would go out if the power outage was not caused by an external outage or an intentional internal outage. Just more typical lazy contrarian nonsense that doesn't have to make any narrative sense. I can understand your reluctance to take any position because that would actually require you to explain something that makes no sense.
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Why do people push elevator buttons multiple times?
How is this even relevant you implied that if the Elevator's lights are out then the Elevator is not working so why would Adams push the buttons and then seem to derive her conclusion not from no lights going out but from the reaction to her button pressing?
JohnM
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I was mocking Mytton's "astronomical odds" argument. I'm not surprised that flew right over your head.
Keep lying to yourself. You were supporting Tom's baseless suggestion that Adams knew the power was out because the indicator light was burned out. Something that is not in her testimony. All she said is that she pushed the button to call the elevator. She said nothing about the indicator light not coming on or why she assumed the power was out.
Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.
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There are numerous examples in these threads of individuals alleging the power outage was the result of efforts of the conspirators. Let's try to clarify your position on this for once. Are you ruling out that any power outage was the result of the efforts of a conspiracy or not? You seem to want to have it both ways as it suits you. If you rule out the possibility of an external power outage and dispute that anyone is suggesting any conspirator turned the power off, but contend that there still was a power outage it is difficult to understand what you are suggesting happened. There isn't much else to explain why the power would go out if the power outage was not caused by an external outage or an intentional internal outage. Just more typical lazy contrarian nonsense that doesn't have to make any narrative sense. I can understand your reluctance to take any position because that would actually require you to explain something that makes no sense.
Just more typical lazy contrarian nonsense that doesn't have to make any narrative sense.
This sums up the CT and specifically Iacoletti to a "T" they throw out alternatives at every juncture without the slightest concern that this latest excuse contradicts their earlier excuses.
At least the OJ defence team had the sense to make an alternative scenario whereas the Oswald defence attorney's just throw anyone under the bus and with so much evidence that bus just ain't movin!
JohnM
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There are numerous examples in these threads of individuals alleging the power outage was the result of efforts of the conspirators.
And yet you can't seem to quote even a single example. Much like your "mountain of evidence" against Oswald that you never seem to be able to give a single example of either.
Let's try to clarify your position on this for once.
I've made my position very clear. You arrogantly claimed that there was never a power outage because the Hertz sign worked at
12:30. I said that Mooney and Adams both reported power outages to elevators, and Hine reported lights going out. Period. You're the one who has to weave fantasy conspirators into every conversation.
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Keep lying to yourself. You were supporting Tom's baseless suggestion that Adams knew the power was out because the indicator light was burned out. Something that is not in her testimony. All she said is that she pushed the button to call the elevator. She said nothing about the indicator light not coming on or why she assumed the power was out.
Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.
Says the guy who made the baseless assumption that they didn't know how the elevators worked.
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This sums up the CT and specifically Iacoletti to a "T" they throw out alternatives at every juncture without the slightest concern that this latest excuse contradicts their earlier excuses.
At least the OJ defence team had the sense to make an alternative scenario whereas the Oswald defence attorney's just throw anyone under the bus and with so much evidence that bus just ain't movin!
Pot. Kettle.
Do I need to post the LNer cavalcade of lying/mistaken witnesses again?
"So much evidence". LOL
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Pot. Kettle.
Do I need to post the LNer cavalcade of lying/mistaken witnesses again?
"So much evidence". LOL
We have a narrative, what's yours?
JohnM
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We have a narrative, what's yours?
Walt has narratives too. Isn't story time fun?
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Walt has narratives too.
And Iacoletti seems to have no narrative and the reason for that is staring you right in the face, you have no alternative because none exists.
Isn't story time fun?
A mountain of evidence corroborates to one conclusion, it only happened one way.
JohnM
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And Iacoletti seems to have no narrative and the reason for that is staring you right in the face, you have no alternative because none exists.
"I win by default unless you can prove something different happened".
(http://rs1209.pbsrc.com/albums/cc395/scout03060/smileys/yawn-1.gif~c200)
A mountain of evidence corroborates to one conclusion, it only happened one way.
So you keep saying. Yeah, we know -- Oswald left his ring in a cup.
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I've made my position very clear. You arrogantly claimed that there was never a power outage because the Hertz sign worked at
12:30. I said that Mooney and Adams both reported power outages to elevators, and Hine reported lights going out. Period. You're the one who has to weave fantasy conspirators into every conversation.
Obvious power outages going on in the building, this in itself is very serious evidence of a conspiracy and the accused mans innocence
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Obvious power outages going on in the building, this in itself is very serious evidence of a conspiracy and the accused mans innocence
John has asked multiple times now who has alleged the power outage is evidence of a conspiracy. Implying no one has done so despite numerous examples to the contrary. So just want to highlight yet another example should anyone be taken in by yet another of his dishonest claims.
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I didn't dishonestly do anything. I quoted Tom's post in a reply. He's more credible than you because he does actual research. All you do is insult people and make up strawman arguments.
Another lie. You quoted language Tom wrote but indicated it came from the newspaper article that he posted and was therefore conclusive in resolving the issue of the power source of the sign. When I asked specifically about the language you placed quotation marks around in relation to the article you doubled down. It wasn't until after I pointed out to you that Tom's commentary about the "separate power" source was his own assessment and not a fact noted in the article that you started running away. How exactly is Tom's research more "credible" in this respect? He offered his opinion about the sign's power source. It was not confirmed by any facts in the article. He may or may not be right but I don't see how his opinion is more credible than other plausible alternatives except that his opinion is one that you hope is correct.
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And yet you can't seem to quote even a single example. Much like your "mountain of evidence" against Oswald that you never seem to be able to give a single example of either.
I've made my position very clear. You arrogantly claimed that there was never a power outage because the Hertz sign worked at
12:30. I said that Mooney and Adams both reported power outages to elevators, and Hine reported lights going out. Period. You're the one who has to weave fantasy conspirators into every conversation.
I'll ask again. Do you rule out any nexus between the alleged power outage and a conspiracy or not? It's a simple question. You have suggested multiple times now that no one has made the claim that the alleged outage was the result of a conspiracy despite numerous examples of other posters doing exactly that. But you won't clarify for us even whether you yourself are ruling out a conspiracy as the cause of the outage? By indicating I'm the one weaving "fantasy" conspirators into this scenario this seems to suggest you believe the power outage was not the product of or evidences a conspiracy. Why not just say that then? We would then be in agreement on the fundamental issue that this does not evidence or support a conspiracy either because (as I believe) there was no outage or (as you may believe) there could have been some type of outage but it is not related to a conspiracy.
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I'll ask again. Do you rule out any nexus between the alleged power outage and a conspiracy or not? It's a simple question. You have suggested multiple times now that no one has made the claim that the alleged outage was the result of a conspiracy despite numerous examples of other posters doing exactly that.
How the hell should I know why there was a power outage? I was responding to your initial argument that the Hertz sign being on at 12:30 somehow demonstrated that there was never a power outage inside the building and therefore Mooney and Adams must have been confused about how elevators work and Hine was only talking about lights on her phone.
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John has asked multiple times now who has alleged the power outage is evidence of a conspiracy. Implying no one has done so despite numerous examples to the contrary. So just want to highlight yet another example should anyone be taken in by yet another of his dishonest claims.
"Yet another". LOL. The one example you actually quoted was a post made after you claimed that there were "numerous examples in these threads".
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Another lie. You quoted language Tom wrote but indicated it came from the newspaper article that he posted and was therefore conclusive in resolving the issue of the power source of the sign.
You're delusional. How exactly did I "indicate it came from the newspaper article".
Tom had some reason to come to that conclusion. He hasn't said he was mistaken.
It was not confirmed by any facts in the article. He may or may not be right but I don't see how his opinion is more credible than other plausible alternatives except that his opinion is one that you hope is correct.
I've already explained that. Tom has a history of well documented research. You have a history of making unsupported claims, inventing strawmen to argue against, and using insults as rebuttals.
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So here is Tom apparently NOT suggesting or implying that the indicator light was out when Adams pushed the button. He apparently is just sharing his elevator experiences with us without meaning to imply that the indicator light being out was the basis for Adams to conclude the elevator had no power rather than being busy. Thanks for sharing Tom.
So when you come up with your "plausible scenario", you just report it as a fact. But when somebody else suggests a plausible scenario, all of a sudden it's all about the evidence. Sheer hypocrisy.