JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Alan Ford on October 03, 2021, 09:08:46 PM
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If the handwriting on the address label is Mr Oswald's, might he have sent the package to himself @ a non-existent address to test whether it would eventuate in a notification at the Paine home, i.e. to test whether he was under surveillance from the postal authorities?
(https://i.imgur.com/2BM66PC.jpg)
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If the handwriting on the address label is Mr Oswald's, might he have sent the package to himself @ a non-existent address to test whether it would eventuate in a notification at the Paine home, i.e. to test whether he was under surveillance from the postal authorities?
(https://i.imgur.com/2BM66PC.jpg)
I've read that the "Nassaus" street address was a federal building in 1963..... The handwriting on the envelope does look like Lee Oswald's writing. And that sewing machine the was used to seal the package looks like something that was used at Reilly Coffee Company.
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(https://i.imgur.com/gVBU0wa.jpg)
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Meanwhile...............
(https://i.imgur.com/f2vEMRM.jpg)
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LHO-Incriminating Scenario!
1. Mr Oswald does not want to personally transport a long paper sack made @ TSBD to the Paine residence
2. He does a dry run to test whether the postal authorities have him under surveillance: he posts a parcel containing 18"-long brown wrapping-paper bag, and addresses it to a fictitious address
3. He establishes after a few days that no notification has been delivered to the Paine residence: good news
4. He mails a second parcel, this one containing a longer paper bag (along with a magazine?), and addresses it correctly to the Paine residence. In order to ensure that its arrival will be noticed chez Paine, he does not pay postage
5. On November 20 or 21, he calls the Paine residence and learns that the parcel has indeed been delivered, after Ms Oswald paid excess postage: he asks Mr Frazier for a Thursday-evening lift to Irving
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I have tried before to make out that postmark date :-\
Indication is that it was mailed out of a Texas post office.
Notice at the right hand corner...the 'X's and the line drawn through a word I can't make out either.
'Q265' ...What could that mean?
The 'Dallas' part was written on a label.
But then, 'Irving' was written directly on the package and it looks like the same handwriting.
Of course the parcel was mailed. It has a postmark but oddly no 'postage due' stamped.
After a fashion...the dead letter people will open stuff with no return address to see if they can find any clues.
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If the handwriting on the address label is Mr Oswald's, might he have sent the package to himself @ a non-existent address to test whether it would eventuate in a notification at the Paine home, i.e. to test whether he was under surveillance from the postal authorities?
Why would Oswald care? He was already aware that the FBI had visited the Paine home. He felt comfortable receiving his pro-commie literature. Why suddenly be concerned about postal surveillance? He already had his guns. I think it was most likely a hoax. Probably some anti-JFK type joking about Oswald needing more bags to continue the good work. It doesn't make much sense for Oswald to address this to a non-existent address. If he learns on Monday or Tuesday that JFK is passing the building, then there would be a remote possibility he considered mailing the bag there instead of transporting it himself but there would be no guarantee that it would arrive by Friday. And why do a test run to a different address with so little time?
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I have tried before to make out that postmark date :-\
Me too!
Indication is that it was mailed out of a Texas post office.
Notice at the right hand corner...the 'X's and the line drawn through a word I can't make out either.
'Q265' ...What could that mean?
The 'Dallas' part was written on a label.
But then, 'Irving' was written directly on the package and it looks like the same handwriting.
Of course the parcel was mailed. It has a postmark but oddly no 'postage due' stamped.
After a fashion...the dead letter people will open stuff with no return address to see if they can find any clues.
This parcel was indeed partially opened
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Why would Oswald care? He was already aware that the FBI had visited the Paine home. He felt comfortable receiving his pro-commie literature. Why suddenly be concerned about postal surveillance? He already had his guns. I think it was most likely a hoax. Probably some anti-JFK type joking about Oswald needing more bags to continue the good work.
A joker who knows Mr Oswald's handwriting well enough to fool seasoned researchers into thinking he wrote the address?
It doesn't make much sense for Oswald to address this to a non-existent address. If he learns on Monday or Tuesday that JFK is passing the building, then there would be a remote possibility he considered mailing the bag there instead of transporting it himself but there would be no guarantee that it would arrive by Friday. And why do a test run to a different address with so little time?
How do you know it wasn't sent earlier than that?
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A joker who knows Mr Oswald's handwriting well enough to fool seasoned researchers into thinking he wrote the address?
How do you know it wasn't sent earlier than that?
I don't know when it was sent. No one does. All we can do is apply logic and inference to the situation. Maybe there is some reason for Oswald to have sent it but I can't think of anything that makes sense. Oswald already knew the FBI was watching him and aware of his families presence at the Paine home. He apparently didn't care whether they knew he was receiving commie literature in the mail. There is certainly no obvious reason for any conspirator to have done this. It seems pointless. If it is pointless, then that means Oswald or a conspirator likely didn't do it. That leaves some type of hoax. I don't rule out that Oswald had some reason that isn't apparent, though. He was a nut who read spy novels.
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I don't know when it was sent. No one does. All we can do is apply logic and inference to the situation. Maybe there is some reason for Oswald to have sent it but I can't think of anything that makes sense. Oswald already knew the FBI was watching him and aware of his families presence at the Paine home. He apparently didn't care whether they knew he was receiving commie literature in the mail. There is certainly no obvious reason for any conspirator to have done this. It seems pointless. If it is pointless, then that means Oswald or a conspirator likely didn't do it. That leaves some type of hoax. I don't rule out that Oswald had some reason that isn't apparent, though. He was a nut who read spy novels.
The LHO-Did-It part of you wants this to be Mr Oswald's doing; the LNer in you worries about the time factor (foreknowledge of motorcade route). So you play it down, without however being able to explain it away.
Make no mistake: IF this handwriting is Mr Oswald's, then we would appear to have him sending a bag made of heavy brown paper to himself at a fake address. Given subsequent events & allegations, one need hardly spell out why this would be of potentially huge significance
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The LHO-Did-It part of you wants this to be Mr Oswald's doing; the LNer in you worries about the time factor (foreknowledge of motorcade route). So you play it down, without however being able to explain it away.
Make no mistake: IF this handwriting is Mr Oswald's, then we would appear to have him sending a bag made of heavy brown paper to himself at a fake address. Given subsequent events & allegations, one need hardly spell out why this would be of potentially huge significance
I actually expressed skepticism that Oswald did this as there seemed no point. I don't see how this package moves the needle from either a LN or CT perspective. There is no obvious reason for anyone to send a package to a nonexistent address. What significance do you attribute to it? Why put anything inside the package at all if the purpose was some attempt to determine if his mail was being monitored? The bag inside was too short for his rifle or even your imaginary curtain rods. And Oswald already knew the FBI was aware of his connection to the Paine home. They had even been there. The handwriting does look similar to his but absent any reasonable explanation for Oswald doing this (and you have provided none) that leaves the possibility someone did it as a hoax after the assassination.
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I actually expressed skepticism that Oswald did this as there seemed no point. I don't see how this package moves the needle from either a LN or CT perspective. There is no obvious reason for anyone to send a package to a nonexistent address. What significance do you attribute to it? Why put anything inside the package at all if the purpose was some attempt to determine if his mail was being monitored?
To see if a bulky package addressed to him @ a non-existent address would result in a notification at the Paine home. A test of whether he could post another, rifle-sized heavy brown paper bag without that being flagged to the authorities so close to the Presidential visit
The bag inside was too short for his rifle
So? If it was a dry run, then that's immaterial
or even your imaginary curtain rods.
Off-topic, but I'll bite: there's nothing imaginary about the two curtain rods submitted for testing for Mr Oswald's fingerprints 8 days before two curtain rods were taken from the Paine garage. The only thing imaginary is the idea that you and your friends have offered a rational explanation for this documented fact
And Oswald already knew the FBI was aware of his connection to the Paine home. They had even been there.
So what? The dry run I am postulating would have been to see if the authorities would take notice of a bulky parcel with his name on it
The handwriting does look similar to his but absent any reasonable explanation for Oswald doing this (and you have provided none) that leaves the possibility someone did it as a hoax after the assassination.
Well then you have a random hoaxer who knows to write in a handwriting style that will fool seasoned researchers for many years to come. Is that a reasonable explanation?
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To see if a bulky package addressed to him @ a non-existent address would result in a notification at the Paine home. A test of whether he could post another, rifle-sized heavy brown paper bag without that being flagged to the authorities so close to the Presidential visit
Oswald puts his own name on a package that he addresses to a non-existent address to determine if doing so will trigger a notification to the Paine home? Why would he care? If he was concerned about the authorities monitoring his mail and finding a large brown paper bag in a package associated with him, why test that theory by sending a package with a large brown paper bag in it. That makes no sense.
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Oswald puts his own name on a package that he addresses to a non-existent address to determine if doing so will trigger a notification to the Paine home? Why would he care? If he was concerned about the authorities monitoring his mail and finding a large brown paper bag in a package associated with him, why test that theory by sending a package with a large brown paper bag in it.
This is precisely what would explain the use of an 18" bag: he is concerned about the authorities monitoring his mail and finding an eyebrow-raising rifle-length brown paper bag in a package associated with him, so he safely tests that theory by sending a bulky package with a non-eyebrow-raising non-rifle-length brown paper bag in it
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This is precisely what would explain the use of an 18" bag: he is concerned about the authorities monitoring his mail and finding an eyebrow-raising rifle-length brown paper bag in a package associated with him, so he safely tests that theory by sending a bulky package with a non-eyebrow-raising non-rifle-length brown paper bag in it
My head is spinning. Oswald is concerned about someone monitoring his mail to discover a large paper bag. And he tests this by sending a smaller brown paper bag to a non-existent address? Even if someone discovered a large bag in his mail - so what? Why would they conclude it was going to be used to carry a rifle to assassinate the president? All of this when he has the obvious solution of just taking the bag there himself when he goes (which he did)? Why mail it?
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My head is spinning.
Well that's not saying much, is it Mr Smith? Your head spins at even the minutest deviation from the Warren Report bedtime story.
My head is still spinning by your idea that a random hoaxer was in a position to write Mr Oswald's name and the fake 'West Nassaus' address in a convincing imitation of Mr Oswald's own style of handwriting. Like I say, if it weren't for the timeline implications (foreknowledge of motorcade route) you would not be putting forward such a silly explanation
Oswald is concerned about someone monitoring his mail to discover a large paper bag. And he tests this by sending a smaller brown paper bag to a non-existent address?
Yes. To see if it finds its way nevertheless to the Paine residence
Even if someone discovered a large bag in his mail - so what? Why would they conclude it was going to be used to carry a rifle to assassinate the president?
Mr Oswald is paranoid about surveillance. With JFK coming to town, he fears that an odd parcel containing a long (rifle-length) paper bag could easily raise suspicion with the authorities. He is being extra careful
All of this when he has the obvious solution of just taking the bag there himself when he goes (which he did)?
Really? Where on his person was it when he travelled back to Irving with Mr Frazier on the Thursday pm?
Why mail it?
He doesn't want a fellow employee to see him taking (i.e. stealing) TSBD property home from work--------------especially not when said employee will be seeing the same paper bag the following morning and being given to understand that such was needed to carry mere curtain rods. Much cleaner to have the bag there waiting for him when he arrives at the Paine home on Thursday pm.
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Guys...there is another possibility--- Someone wanted Oswald's hand prints on a paper bag.
A palm print and/or index finger print will do.
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Guys...there is another possibility--- Someone wanted Oswald's hand prints on a paper bag.
A palm print and/or index finger print will do.
Yes, Mr Freeman, this has been a favored explanation amongst CTers. It seems to me however to be attended by at least three problems:
1. Why an 18" bag? (Was the original plan to have Mr Oswald framed for, at least, supplying a shorter weapon---------of the type seen by Ms Carolyn Walther? Or was it to take the paper from the 18" bag----------with Mr Oswald's prints now on it-----------and tape it together with more paper to form a rifle-sized bag?)
2. Why not just send the parcel to the correct address (Paine home)?
3. Wouldn't it have been much easier to just get Mr Oswald to handle paper at the Depository?
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1. Or was it to take the paper from the 18" bag----------with Mr Oswald's prints now on it-----------and tape it together with more paper to form a rifle-sized bag?)
There you go.
2. Why not just send the parcel to the correct address (Paine home)?
Mystery
3. Wouldn't it have been much easier to just get Mr Oswald to handle paper at the Depository?
The paper would have to be re-handled and fabricated [as it seems it was anyway] complete with telltale fibers.
There was this disgusting revelation of certain hairs analyzed and traced to LHO on the surface of a blanket.
They apparently did not make it to the confines of the paper bag so why mention it?
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShUhRqG5QkTd66191ZdJtPA3fg-2X2OMBiSSK5yRpBWdBvD_9VOkAsBOxm1eXPFH8_un8&usqp=CAU)
Notice that the bag is partially laying on subject blanket. Can we say contaminated evidence?
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Mr Oswald is paranoid about surveillance. With JFK coming to town, he fears that an odd parcel containing a long (rifle-length) paper bag could easily raise suspicion with the authorities. He is being extra careful
Really? Where on his person was it when he travelled back to Irving with Mr Frazier on the Thursday pm?
He doesn't want a fellow employee to see him taking (i.e. stealing) TSBD property home from work--------------especially not when said employee will be seeing the same paper bag the following morning and being given to understand that such was needed to carry mere curtain rods. Much cleaner to have the bag there waiting for him when he arrives at the Paine home on Thursday pm.
Why is it less odd to send an 18-inch bag than a somewhat longer bag? The bag folds. It was made of paper. A genius like Oswald could figure that out. It could be folded it and carried under his jacket. Which is what he did. And the guy who is planning on assassinating the president is "worried" about stealing TSBD property? Very silly. And why is Oswald doing all of this if you believe he is innocent and just carried curtain rods to work? I realize that nothing has to add up in CTer fantasy land but that is rich. Because none of this adds up, a hoax is most likely.
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Mystery
Well, a very big mystery! And one only compounded by the fact that postage was not paid. If the objective was to get a package into Mr Oswald's hands, it seems pretty counterintuitive, to say the least, that this would occur to anyone as a good way to go about it.................
Notice that the bag is partially laying on subject blanket. Can we say contaminated evidence?
We certainly can!
(https://i.imgur.com/EpYSySe.gif)
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Why is it less odd to send an 18-inch bag than a somewhat longer bag?
You can't seriously need this spelled out, Mr Smith! An 18-inch bag is not a bag long enough to hold a rifle. Hence no danger of a red flag in relation to a known subversive on the Feds' watchlist as a Presidential visit impends
The bag folds. It was made of paper. A genius like Oswald could figure that out. It could be folded it and carried under his jacket. Which is what he did.
Just because your Warren Report bedtime story says this doesn't make it any less unlikely
And the guy who is planning on assassinating the president is "worried" about stealing TSBD property? Very silly.
Yes, that would be a silly thing to suggest. Which is why I made no such suggestion
And why is Oswald doing all of this if you believe he is innocent and just carried curtain rods to work?
I have NEVER said Mr Oswald is innocent of involvement in the assassination. Do try to keep up, Mr Smith!
As for curtain rods, the evidence is clear: two curtain rods were submitted to the Crime Lab for testing for Mr Oswald's prints 8 days before two curtain rods were taken from the Paine home. I stand over my assessment of this remarkable fact: it points to two curtain rods having been found in the Depository sometime after the assassination. No other scenario makes sense in my view.
However, IF that address label on the Nixie Package is indeed in Mr Oswald's handwriting, then that has the potential to change things----------dramatically. I am doing something you never ever do: assessing the evidence critically and with an open mind
Speaking of handwriting, your random-hoaxer-who-happened-to-imitate-LHO's-handwriting-to-perfection hypothesis is still a dud
Thumb1:
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However, IF that address label on the Nixie Package is indeed in Mr Oswald's handwriting, then that has the potential to change things----------dramatically.
Now! Let us see where the above line of thought might take us.........................
1. We have a parcel connecting Mr Oswald to a bag open at both ends made of heavy brown wrapping paper
2. Mr Oswald is testing whether he could get away with sending himself the real deal, i.e. a bag made of heavy brown wrapping paper long enough to carry a rifle
3. Mr Oswald brings the rifle to the Depository, telling Mr Frazier the bag contains curtain rods
4. After the assassination, Mr Frazier is in a panic. He consults with his sister and they concoct a story about a shorter bag (i.e. one short enough to contain curtain rods)
5. At some point in the days following the assassination, Mr Frazier himself brings two curtain rods to the Depository and quietly places them somewhere: he is desperate to NOT be the man who drove the rifle to the building 11/22
6. The curtain rods are found and tested for Mr Oswald's prints (negative result)
7. The discovery of the curtain rods causes a major headache for the 'investigation', leading to all sorts of shenanigans in the Paine garage in March '64
Just a line of thought! Thumb1:
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It could be folded it and carried under his jacket.
Lee the hunchback? :D
Which is what he did.
Coulda Woulda Shoulda Mighta ...did!
If it was remotely possible and concluded Oswald did it---it happened.
If it was improbable, unlikely and concluded he might not have---then it didn't.
Great thesis there. Another book possibility ;)
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(https://i.imgur.com/EpYSySe.gif)
Incidentally---Good catch... I remember seeing that picture before Thumb1:
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You can't seriously need this spelled out, Mr Smith! An 18-inch bag is not a bag long enough to hold a rifle. Hence no danger of a red flag in relation to a known subversive on the Feds' watchlist as a Presidential visit impends
Just because your Warren Report bedtime story says this doesn't make it any less unlikely
Yes, that would be a silly thing to suggest. Which is why I made no such suggestion
I have NEVER said Mr Oswald is innocent of involvement in the assassination. Do try to keep up, Mr Smith!
As for curtain rods, the evidence is clear: two curtain rods were submitted to the Crime Lab for testing for Mr Oswald's prints 8 days before two curtain rods were taken from the Paine home. I stand over my assessment of this remarkable fact: it points to two curtain rods having been found in the Depository sometime after the assassination. No other scenario makes sense in my view.
However, IF that address label on the Nixie Package is indeed in Mr Oswald's handwriting, then that has the potential to change things----------dramatically. I am doing something you never ever do: assessing the evidence critically and with an open mind
Speaking of handwriting, your random-hoaxer-who-happened-to-imitate-LHO's-handwriting-to-perfection hypothesis is still a dud
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Again, why would anyone have cause to suspect that a paper bag sent through the mail was going to be used to carry a rifle to assassinate the president? It is just an empty paper bag. It could be used for many purposes. But if that is your rationale, an 18-inch bag could be used to carry a pistol. Right? If someone was suspicious of empty paper bags, then they could conclude Oswald was using the mailed bag to carry his pistol somewhere. How does this package "dramatically" change the case even if Oswald did actually mail this package? At best, it would show he was some type of paranoid loon which we already know. I'm not aware of any scientific analysis of the handwriting that confirms it was Oswald's. You just keep repeating that, in your inexpert opinion, it is Oswald's handwriting.
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Again, why would anyone have cause to suspect that a paper bag sent through the mail was going to be used to carry a rifle to assassinate the president? It is just an empty paper bag. It could be used for many purposes. But if that is your rationale, an 18-inch bag could be used to carry a pistol. Right? If someone was suspicious of empty paper bags, then they could conclude Oswald was using the mailed bag to carry his pistol somewhere.
You don't need a paper bag to conceal a pistol, duh
How does this package "dramatically" change the case even if Oswald did actually mail this package?
I didn't say it dramatically changes the case, I said it would dramatically change things if this is indeed Mr Oswald's handwriting. Because that would connect Mr Oswald to a heavy brown paper bag more convincingly than the official investiagation was able to connect him to a certain other heavy brown paper bag. And it would do more than connect him to the bag-------------------it would show him engaging in clandestine behavior with it ahead of Pres. Kennedy's visit to Dallas. It would, in short, make him look guilty as hell
At best, it would show he was some type of paranoid loon which we already know.
So he was wrong to believe he was under surveillance from the Feds? Really?
Of course what really drives your opposition to my hypothesis as to why Mr Oswald might send this heavy brown paper bag to himself at a fake address is that such would require Mr Oswald to have foreknowledge of the motorcade route well before your cherished bedtime story says he had
I'm not aware of any scientific analysis of the handwriting that confirms it was Oswald's. You just keep repeating that, in your inexpert opinion, it is Oswald's handwriting.
And you just keep repeating that, in your very inexpert opinion, a random hoaxer could have known to write the name and address in a way that even you have to admit looks like Mr Oswald's handwriting. Care to explain how your imaginary random hoaxer would have known to do this?
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Of course what really drives your opposition to my hypothesis as to why Mr Oswald might send this heavy brown paper bag to himself at a fake address is that such would require Mr Oswald to have foreknowledge of the motorcade route well before your cherished bedtime story says he had
And you just keep repeating that, in your very inexpert opinion, a random hoaxer could have known to write the name and address in a way that even you have to admit looks like Mr Oswald's handwriting. Care to explain how your imaginary random hoaxer would have known to do this?
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How would it show foreknowledge of the motorcade route?
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How would it show foreknowledge of the motorcade route?
~Grin~
Odd that you should ask, Mr Smith. Why, only a few short days ago you had no difficulty in seeing the linkage------------you criticized my hypothesis on the basis that Mr Oswald would not have had enough foreknowledge of the motorcade route to make the experiment with the Nixie parcel viable:
If he learns on Monday or Tuesday that JFK is passing the building, then there would be a remote possibility he considered mailing the bag there instead of transporting it himself but there would be no guarantee that it would arrive by Friday. And why do a test run to a different address with so little time?
As I have several times gently pointed out, this is the real reason you have tried (unconvincingly) to write the Nixie parcel off as a random hoax: evidence of nefarious intent on Mr Oswald's part is fine, but only so long as the timing does not threaten the Lone Nut scenario.
A Mr Oswald sending himself a heavy brown paper bag, but doing so in a way that suggests game-playing with the postal authorities, would suggest a Mr Oswald making plans for something clandestine that would involve the use of a heavy brown paper bag. That this would require more lead-in time than you are comfortable with is a problem for you, not me.
By the way, you dodged my question about how a random hoaxer could have known to write the name and address in a way that even you have to admit looks like Mr Oswald's handwriting. Still trying to figure this little conundrum out, eh?
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~Grin~
Odd that you should ask, Mr Smith. Why, only a few short days ago you had no difficulty in seeing the linkage------------you criticized my hypothesis on the basis that Mr Oswald would not have had enough foreknowledge of the motorcade route to make the experiment with the Nixie parcel viable:
As I have several times gently pointed out, this is the real reason you have tried (unconvincingly) to write the Nixie parcel off as a random hoax: evidence of nefarious intent on Mr Oswald's part is fine, but only so long as the timing does not threaten the Lone Nut scenario.
A Mr Oswald sending himself a heavy brown paper bag, but doing so in a way that suggests game-playing with the postal authorities, would suggest a Mr Oswald making plans for something clandestine that would involve the use of a heavy brown paper bag. That this would require more lead-in time than you are comfortable with is a problem for you, not me.
By the way, you dodged my question about how a random hoaxer could have known to write the name and address in a way that even you have to admit looks like Mr Oswald's handwriting. Still trying to figure this little conundrum out, eh?
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Try to focus instead of rambling on. Here is the question again: How would this package show foreknowledge of the motorcade route?
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Try to focus instead of rambling on. Here is the question again: How would this package show foreknowledge of the motorcade route?
You mean like that map of DP they found at Ozzie's pad, dad?
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You mean like that map of DP they found at Ozzie's pad, dad?
A map that has an 'X' marking the TSBD? He did that when he went to find a job there.
If you can produce a link showing this map I would like to see it.
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Try to focus instead of rambling on. Here is the question again: How would this package show foreknowledge of the motorcade route?
~Grin~
Asks the man who dismissed my hypothesis on the basis that it would show too much foreknowledge of the motorcade route
Still no explanation of how a random hoaxer could have known to write the name and address in a way that even you have to admit looks like Mr Oswald's handwriting? Your inability to focus on this is noted, Mr Smith! Thumb1:
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A map that has an 'X' marking the TSBD? He did that when he went to find a job there.
If you can produce a link showing this map I would like to see it.
I stand corrected, sir. Still un-tying the conspiratorial knots from my wee mind, which is constantly getting much mo' wee-er, uh. Older researchers understand the 'wee-er' part........ or do they?
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~Grin~
Asks the man who dismissed my hypothesis on the basis that it would show too much foreknowledge of the motorcade route
Still no explanation of how a random hoaxer could have known to write the name and address in a way that even you have to admit looks like Mr Oswald's handwriting? Your inability to focus on this is noted, Mr Smith! Thumb1:
You have stated repeatedly that this package demonstrates that Oswald had foreknowledge of the motorcade. Could you just explain why instead of dancing around like a circus monkey? The date on the package is indecipherable. So how does it shed any light on when it was mailed? As I've said repeatedly, I'm not sure whether Oswald sent the package or not. I can't think of any logical reason for him to address a package to a nonexistent address and your explanation makes no sense as usual. If there is no logical reason for him to have done so, that lends itself to another explanation like a hoax. I'm not a handwriting expert. I assume that you are not either. The handwriting does look similar but some people have similar looking handwriting. Again, I'm not ruling out that this is Oswald's handwriting but in the case of the forms linking Oswald to the rifle etc we have been told repeatedly by CTers that handwriting analysis is not an exact science even when conducted by an expert. But here suddenly we are told this looks - to a non-expert - like Oswald's handwriting and thus it must be so. When was the first example of Oswald's signature offered to the public? I don't know the answer. Do you? It seems like an important issue if you are claiming no one had an opportunity to write his name in a similar way.
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You have stated repeatedly that this package demonstrates that Oswald had foreknowledge of the motorcade.
~Grin~
Again you are trying to row back on your own stated objection to my hypothesis: that the window between Mr Oswald's learning that the motorcade would pass in front of the building he worked at and the time needed to execute such a game with the postal authorities would have been too tight. Why are you now objecting to your own objection, Mr Smith? Is it because your objection fades away once we DON'T assume we know when Mr Oswald learned of the motorcade route? Hm?
Could you just explain why instead of dancing around like a circus monkey? The date on the package is indecipherable. So how does it shed any light on when it was mailed? As I've said repeatedly, I'm not sure whether Oswald sent the package or not. I can't think of any logical reason for him to address a package to a nonexistent address and your explanation makes no sense as usual. If there is no logical reason for him to have done so, that lends itself to another explanation like a hoax. I'm not a handwriting expert. I assume that you are not either. The handwriting does look similar but some people have similar looking handwriting.
The handwriting doesn't look similar, it looks uncannily similar------------have you actually placed the writing on the package next to authenticated samples of Mr Oswald's writing? I suggest you take a break from your usual 'Nothing to see here' routine and do so
Your freak coincidence theory just doesn't wash. You are a private citizen. A heinous crime has been committed, and one man has been singled out for this crime. The story has been all over the news. OK. Without having privileged access to files, without having internet, without having a clue how the man writes, you mail a package to this man in handwriting that just so happens to look awfully like his. What are the odds of your getting this right? Very slim indeed! There are many, many different styles of handwriting.
Again, I'm not ruling out that this is Oswald's handwriting but in the case of the forms linking Oswald to the rifle etc we have been told repeatedly by CTers that handwriting analysis is not an exact science even when conducted by an expert. But here suddenly we are told this looks - to a non-expert - like Oswald's handwriting and thus it must be so. When was the first example of Oswald's signature offered to the public? I don't know the answer. Do you?
No, but common sense says that IF no sample of Mr Oswald's signature was offered to the public in time for a hoaxer to imitate his signature, then we have a high probability that Mr Oswald mailed a heavy brown paper bag to himself at a fake address not long before the assassination. Your fluke coincidence theory would be a very, very last resort. And yet here you are, putting it forward as your first explanatory port of call. All because you don't like the time implications!
It seems like an important issue if you are claiming no one had an opportunity to write his name in a similar way.
I have not said that. I have said that only someone who has seen a sample or samples of his handwriting could have written his name AND the address in such a remarkably similar way. And even then we would be left with a hoax OR a frame-up attempt that makes absolutely no sense (at least that anyone has ever been able to discern). My hypothesis, by contrast, would finally make sense of the enduring riddle posed by the Nixie parcel: Mr Oswald was doing a non-dangerous dry run to test if the postal authorities had him under surveillance
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~Grin~
Again you are trying to row back on your own stated objection to my hypothesis: that the window between Mr Oswald's learning that the motorcade would pass in front of the building he worked at and the time needed to execute such a game with the postal authorities would have been too tight. Why are you now objecting to your own objection, Mr Smith? Is it because your objection fades away once we DON'T assume we know when Mr Oswald learned of the motorcade route? Hm?
The handwriting doesn't look similar, it looks uncannily similar------------have you actually placed the writing on the package next to authenticated samples of Mr Oswald's writing? I suggest you take a break from your usual 'Nothing to see here' routine and do so
Your freak coincidence theory just doesn't wash. You are a private citizen. A heinous crime has been committed, and one man has been singled out for this crime. The story has been all over the news. OK. Without having privileged access to files, without having internet, without having a clue how the man writes, you mail a package to this man in handwriting that just so happens to look awfully like his. What are the odds of your getting this right? Very slim indeed! There are many, many different styles of handwriting.
No, but common sense says that IF no sample of Mr Oswald's signature was offered to the public in time for a hoaxer to imitate his signature, then we have a high probability that Mr Oswald mailed a heavy brown paper bag to himself at a fake address not long before the assassination. Your fluke coincidence theory would be a very, very last resort. And yet here you are, putting it forward as your first explanatory port of call. All because you don't like the time implications!
I have not said that. I have said that only someone who has seen a sample or samples of his handwriting could have written his name AND the address in such a remarkably similar way. And even then we would be left with a hoax OR a frame-up attempt that makes absolutely no sense (at least that anyone has ever been able to discern). My hypothesis, by contrast, would finally make sense of the enduring riddle posed by the Nixie parcel: Mr Oswald was doing a non-dangerous dry run to test if the postal authorities had him under surveillance
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So many words. None of which answer the only relevant question. How does this package demonstrate that Oswald had foreknowledge of the motorcade EVEN if he sent it? Can you focus on that? Let me help get started: "This package demonstrates that Oswald had foreknowledge of the motorcade because [HERE YOU ENTER WHATEVER YOU BELIEVE PROVES THIS POINT]. Lastly, you repeat over and over that this is Oswald's writing because it looks similar. Are you an expert in handwriting in a position to make such determinations? When did the public first see a copy of Oswald's signature? This seems like a critical point in your theory. That no one could have been aware of what his signature looked like at that time. I don't know the answer. Do you? You seem to assume to no one could have seen Oswald's signature and reproduced it but what is the basis of that claim?
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So many words. None of which answer the only relevant question. How does this package demonstrate that Oswald had foreknowledge of the motorcade EVEN if he sent it? Can you focus on that? Let me help get started: "This package demonstrates that Oswald had foreknowledge of the motorcade because [HERE YOU ENTER WHATEVER YOU BELIEVE PROVES THIS POINT]. Lastly, you repeat over and over that this is Oswald's writing because it looks similar. Are you an expert in handwriting in a position to make such determinations? When did the public first see a copy of Oswald's signature? This seems like a critical point in your theory. That no one could have been aware of what his signature looked like at that time. I don't know the answer. Do you? You seem to assume to no one could have seen Oswald's signature and reproduced it but what is the basis of that claim?
Mr Smith, you're embarrassed because you yourself previously accepted the linkage with the motorcade route. I get that, but I'm not letting you away with your game of now suddenly playing dumb. Sorry! :(
Now! As already explained: IF Mr Oswald mailed this package to himself, then it demonstrates that he had foreknowledge of the motorcade route because it shows him engaging in clandestine business with a heavy brown paper bag at some point before he is accused of bringing a rifle, hidden in a heavy brown paper bag, to his place of work for the purpose of JFK's assassination. By your own analysis, for this plan to work he would have realistically needed to send such a package BEFORE the parade route was made public on 19 November.
Given that this parcel was almost certainly sent BEFORE the assassination, what logical explanation other than mine do we have for this parcel's existence? You certainly haven't come up with one, and nor IMO has any CTer
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Mr Smith, you're embarrassed because you yourself previously accepted the linkage with the motorcade route. I get that, but I'm not letting you away with your game of now suddenly playing dumb. Sorry! :(
Now! As already explained: IF Mr Oswald mailed this package to himself, then it demonstrates that he had foreknowledge of the motorcade route because it shows him engaging in clandestine business with a heavy brown paper bag at some point before he is accused of bringing a rifle, hidden in a heavy brown paper bag, to his place of work for the purpose of JFK's assassination. By your own analysis, for this plan to work he would have realistically needed to send such a package BEFORE the parade route was made public on 19 November.
Given that this parcel was almost certainly sent BEFORE the assassination, what logical explanation other than mine do we have for this parcel's existence? You certainly haven't come up with one, and nor IMO has any CTer
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You are rambling again. Focus on one thing at a time. How is it a "given that this parcel was almost certainly sent BEFORE the assassination"? Can you cite to any evidence whatsoever to support this point? Focus.
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You are rambling again. Focus on one thing at a time. How is it a "given that this parcel was almost certainly sent BEFORE the assassination"? Can you cite to any evidence whatsoever to support this point? Focus.
:D
I am perfectly on focus, Mr Smith, thank you very much. It's you whose arguments have been all over the place-------------your many missteps are securely archived on this thread for folks to read!
Now! Your question above betrays the same worryingly weak grasp of logic that your freak-handwriting-coincidence theory displayed. Surprising I have to spoonfeed you yet again, but hey, I'm here to help:
It is extremely unlikely that a parcel addressed to "Lee Oswald" AFTER the assassination--------------by which time his is the most infamous name not just in Dallas but in the whole country-------------would not be singled out and would instead end up in the Nixie section like any other ordinary non-deliverable parcel
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:D
I am perfectly on focus, Mr Smith, thank you very much. It's you whose arguments have been all over the place-------------your many missteps are securely archived on this thread for folks to read!
Now! Your question above betrays the same worryingly weak grasp of logic that your freak-handwriting-coincidence theory displayed. Surprising I have to spoonfeed you yet again, but hey, I'm here to help:
It is extremely unlikely that a parcel addressed to "Lee Oswald" AFTER the assassination--------------by which time his is the most infamous name not just in Dallas but in the whole country-------------would not be singled out and would instead end up in the Nixie section like any other ordinary non-deliverable parcel
So your evidence that this package demonstrates foreknowledge of the motorcade is that "it is extremely unlikely" that it "would not be singled out" among all the mail handled by the Dallas post office system. Got it. In other words, you have nothing except a baseless assumption. You don't have any actual evidence of the date this package was mailed. You don't have even have any evidence that Oswald mailed it except that the handwriting looks similar to you. You have no plausible explanation for why Oswald would send such a package to a nonexistent mailing address whether before the motorcade route was announced or after. Oswald already knew that the FBI was aware of his connection to the Paine residence. He can easily carry a folded paper bag under his jacket (as he did).
There is no apparent reason for Oswald to undertake this exercise in futility. And even if all your baseless assumptions were correct (i.e. that Oswald mailed this package to a nonexistent address prior to the assassination to test whether the FBI was monitoring his mail to the Paine residence), that still wouldn't support the conclusion that this demonstrates foreknowledge of the motorcade route. It would merely suggest that perhaps Oswald was thinking about mailing the long paper bag to that address to smuggle the rifle out for some unknown purpose. Maybe he was going to give Walker another try or someone else. He was a nut job. It seems like he was intent on using his rifle to commit some act of violence that would not have ended even if the JFk motorcade had never come by the TSBD.
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So your evidence that this package demonstrates foreknowledge of the motorcade is that "it is extremely unlikely" that it "would not be singled out" among all the mail handled by the Dallas post office system. Got it. In other words, you have nothing except a baseless assumption. You don't have any actual evidence of the date this package was mailed. You don't have even have any evidence that Oswald mailed it except that the handwriting looks similar to you. You have no plausible explanation for why Oswald would send such a package to a nonexistent mailing address whether before the motorcade route was announced or after. Oswald already knew that the FBI was aware of his connection to the Paine residence. He can easily carry a folded paper bag under his jacket (as he did).
~Grin~ Is this supposed to be a refutation, Mr Smith?
We now have you committed to the view that a parcel addressed to "Lee Oswald" after the assassination WOULD have been treated as just another regular postal item because that name wouldn't have triggered the least recognition in Dallas postal workers :D
There is no apparent reason for Oswald to undertake this exercise in futility.
Except.......... there is, the one I've offered. The fact that your intellectually dishonest (and increasingly desperate) attempts to refute it have been a pitiful failure is no more than a fun fact worth noting! Thumb1:
If I've got things wrong with my hypothesis for the Nixie parcel, then it looks like it's going to take someone that bit smarter than you to show me where.......
And even if all your baseless assumptions were correct (i.e. that Oswald mailed this package to a nonexistent address prior to the assassination to test whether the FBI was monitoring his mail to the Paine residence), that still wouldn't support the conclusion that this demonstrates foreknowledge of the motorcade route. It would merely suggest that perhaps Oswald was thinking about mailing the long paper bag to that address to smuggle the rifle out for some unknown purpose.
"For some unknown purpose". Why, I do declare this is your funniest one since you argued that a paper sack would be needed to carry a concealed pistol. Talk about the desperation of the self-cornered Warren Gullible! :D
Maybe he was going to give Walker another try or someone else. He was a nut job. It seems like he was intent on using his rifle to commit some act of violence that would not have ended even if the JFk motorcade had never come by the TSBD.
"Some act of violence" lol
Keep the escapological nonsense coming, Mr Smith, it's high entertainment! Thumb1:
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~Grin~ Is this supposed to be a refutation, Mr Smith?
We now have you committed to the view that a parcel addressed to "Lee Oswald" after the assassination WOULD have been treated as just another regular postal item because that name wouldn't have triggered the least recognition in Dallas postal workers :D
Except.......... there is, the one I've offered. The fact that your intellectually dishonest (and increasingly desperate) attempts to refute it have been a pitiful failure is no more than a fun fact worth noting! Thumb1:
If I've got things wrong with my hypothesis for the Nixie parcel, then it looks like it's going to take someone that bit smarter than you to show me where.......
"For some unknown purpose". Why, I do declare this is your funniest one since you argued that a paper sack would be needed to carry a concealed pistol. Talk about the desperation of the self-cornered Warren Gullible! :D
"Some act of violence" lol
Keep the escapological nonsense coming, Mr Smith, it's high entertainment! Thumb1:
It obviously wasn't treated as just another postal item since you are going on and on and on about it nearly 60 years later. It was one package among the Dallas mail that was noted after the assassination because someone wrote Oswald's name on it. You don't know when it was mailed, who mailed it or what purpose it served. Instead you just repeat baseless assumptions as facts. That doesn't even get into the logical inconsistencies of suggesting on the one hand that the Dallas authorities were involved in the framing of Oswald, with the suggestion that they brought to light a package that demonstrates foreknowledge of the motorcade route instead of just tossing it. But logical consistency is no impediment to a good conspiracy yarn.
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It obviously wasn't treated as just another postal item since you are going on and on and on about it nearly 60 years later. It was one package among the Dallas mail that was noted after the assassination because someone wrote Oswald's name on it.
It's precisely because it was NOT noticed that it got consigned to the Nixie section in the first place. This dates its mailing securely to the pre-assassination period
You don't know when it was mailed, who mailed it or what purpose it served. Instead you just repeat baseless assumptions as facts. That doesn't even get into the logical inconsistencies of suggesting on the one hand that the Dallas authorities were involved in the framing of Oswald, with the suggestion that they brought to light a package that demonstrates foreknowledge of the motorcade route instead of just tossing it.
They didn't bring the package to light, someone who found it in the Nixie section did. The FBI did little or nothing to follow up on this lead. And the Warren Commission didn't even mention it.
What else ya got, Mr Smith? Thumb1:
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It's precisely because it was NOT noticed that it got consigned to the Nixie section in the first place. This dates its mailing securely to the pre-assassination period
No, it doesn't even if you repeat it over and over. You are simply making a baseless assumption. There is no indication as to when it was mailed.
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No, it doesn't even if you repeat it over and over. You are simply making a baseless assumption. There is no indication as to when it was mailed.
So the best you can muster, Mr Smith, is a reiteration of your commitment to the absurd view that it is realistic to think that a parcel addressed to "Lee Oswald" after the assassination would be treated as just another regular postal item because that particular name wouldn't have triggered recognition in Dallas postal workers. Got it! Thumb1:
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"Received in bad condition at"...
(https://i.imgur.com/3SbdUp6.jpg)
Question! Would a package that had a non-existent address get stamped this way?
Remember what the report I posted in Reply #2 said about the function of the dead-letter office:
"The 'Nixie' section has been described as the section in which mail and parcels are placed when such mail and/or parcels contain a non-existent or unlocated address or when the mail or parcels have been damaged in transit."
This in turn gives rise to further questions..................
How in the heck did someone know to write "Irving, Texas" below the address label (crossing out "Dallas" on the label) and direct this parcel to the Irving post office?
Does it not look rather as though this parcel was not directed to the Irving post office (from the Dallas post office) but in fact arrived there originally------------in bad condition?
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"Received in bad condition at"...
(https://i.imgur.com/3SbdUp6.jpg)
Question! Would a package that had a non-existent address get stamped this way?
Remember what the report I posted in Reply #2 said about the function of the dead-letter office:
"The 'Nixie' section has been described as the section in which mail and parcels are placed when such mail and/or parcels contain a non-existent or unlocated address or when the mail or parcels have been damaged in transit."
This in turn gives rise to further questions..................
How in the heck did someone know to write "Irving, Texas" below the address label (crossing out "Dallas" on the label) and direct this parcel to the Irving post office?
Does it not look rather as though this parcel was not directed to the Irving post office (from the Dallas post office) but in fact arrived there originally------------in bad condition?
Debating anything about the parcel is simply a waste of time and effort, a distraction and, an excellent example of an exercise in futility
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Debating anything about the parcel is simply a waste of time and effort, a distraction and, an excellent example of an exercise in futility
As opposed to the red rings on the TSBD windows?
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As opposed to the red rings on the TSBD windows?
You're obsessed with those red rings, aren't you Mr "Smith".... You'd like to keep them under the rug and ignored, wouldn't you Mr "Smith" ?.... But you're too stupid to understand that the best way to keep those red rings out of the limelight is by simply ignoring them. But I'm more than happy to reveal that you're simply desperate to make it appear that those red rings had a innocuous purpose..... But all you're silly explanations fall short of explaining the reason for those red rings being stuck to the windows of the TSBD.
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"Received in bad condition at"...
(https://i.imgur.com/3SbdUp6.jpg)
Question! Would a package that had a non-existent address get stamped this way?
Remember what the report I posted in Reply #2 said about the function of the dead-letter office:
"The 'Nixie' section has been described as the section in which mail and parcels are placed when such mail and/or parcels contain a non-existent or unlocated address or when the mail or parcels have been damaged in transit."
This in turn gives rise to further questions..................
How in the heck did someone know to write "Irving, Texas" below the address label (crossing out "Dallas" on the label) and direct this parcel to the Irving post office?
Does it not look rather as though this parcel was not directed to the Irving post office (from the Dallas post office) but in fact arrived there originally------------in bad condition?
Now! According to an official report 16 Dec 1963, the postmark on the package--------------
(https://i.imgur.com/8yJWmIX.jpg)
reads "IRVING, TEX. 5 30 AM 1963" (date illegible). Interestingly, the report makes NO mention of the stamp, to the left of the postmark, bearing the important words "Received in bad condition at".
This all yields a simple but pretty startling circumstance: this package was Received in bad condition at the post office in Irving.
So..........................
We have a non-existent Dallas, Tex. address handwritten on a label that has been stuck on to the package, with "Irving, Texas" written directly on the parcel underneath. No Dallas postmark, only an Irving one. And the reason stated for consignment to the Irving Nixie section: NOT non-existent address BUT "Received in bad condition".
It would seem, then, that this package was originally addressed to "Lee Oswald" at an IRVING address, but did not reach him due to damage in transit (which WAS one regulation reason for consignment to a post office's Nixie section).
So the obvious question must be posed: Was a non-existent Dallas address stuck over a real Irving address in order to change the ostensible reason why the package had ended up in this Nixie office in the first place?
It's beginning to look that way..................
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You're obsessed with those red rings, aren't you Mr "Smith".... You'd like to keep them under the rug and ignored, wouldn't you Mr "Smith" ?.... But you're too stupid to understand that the best way to keep those red rings out of the limelight is by simply ignoring them. But I'm more than happy to reveal that you're simply desperate to make it appear that those red rings had a innocuous purpose..... But all you're silly explanations fall short of explaining the reason for those red rings being stuck to the windows of the TSBD.
So entertaining. Here is some dialogue to add for LBJ's role in your fantasy: "Now Lady Bird when you see those yonder red circles you get you sweet behind down cause there is goin be some shootin."
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It would seem, then, that this package was originally addressed to "Lee Oswald" at an IRVING address, but did not reach him due to damage in transit (which WAS one regulation reason for consignment to a post office's Nixie section).
So the obvious question must be posed: Was a non-existent Dallas address stuck over a real Irving address in order to change the ostensible reason why the package had ended up in this Nixie office in the first place?
And the obvious question that would flow from an affirmative answer to the above question is:
Why would the authorities want to hide that fact that an 18" heavy brown paper bag open at both ends was sent to Mr Oswald at a legitimate Irving address?
Was it, one wonders, to bury evidence of an attempt made before the assassination to get Mr Oswald to leave fingerprints all over a heavy brown paper bag open at both ends that could then be joined together with more heavy brown paper to produce a rifle-length heavy brown paper bag?
A ~40" paper bag (rifle-length): apt to make Mr Oswald suspicious
An 18" paper bag (not close to rifle-length): less apt!
In other words! Is the Nixie parcel in fact hard evidence of an attempt to frame Mr Oswald that went unexpectedly wrong due to the parcel's getting damaged in transit and hence being "Received in bad condition at IRVING, TEX." post office?
If so, then the unsuccessful original plan would surely have required someone in the Paine home to retrieve the now handled paper bag and get it back into the hands of whoever was trying to frame Mr Oswald in advance of 11/22...............................
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So entertaining. Here is some dialogue to add for LBJ's role in your fantasy: "Now Lady Bird when you see those yonder red circles you get you sweet behind down cause there is goin be some shootin."
I doubt that LBJ would have told anybody to get down..... Lbj only cared about LBJ....
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And the obvious question that would flow from an affirmative answer to the above question is:
Why would the authorities want to hide that fact that an 18" heavy brown paper bag open at both ends was sent to Mr Oswald at a legitimate Irving address?
Was it, one wonders, to bury evidence of an attempt made before the assassination to get Mr Oswald to leave fingerprints all over a heavy brown paper bag open at both ends that could then be joined together with more heavy brown paper to produce a rifle-length heavy brown paper bag?
A ~40" paper bag (rifle-length): apt to make Mr Oswald suspicious
An 18" paper bag (not close to rifle-length): less apt!
In other words! Is the Nixie parcel in fact hard evidence of an attempt to frame Mr Oswald that went unexpectedly wrong due to the parcel's getting damaged in transit and hence being "Received in bad condition at IRVING, TEX." post office?
If so, then the unsuccessful original plan would surely have required someone in the Paine home to retrieve the now handled paper bag and get it back into the hands of whoever was trying to frame Mr Oswald in advance of 11/22...............................
Whew. That is quite a plan. If your fantasy conspirators control the evidence, why go through this complicated and bizarre charade and instead just say they found a bag with Oswald's prints on it? That is after all what most CTers claim about any evidence against Oswald. That it is faked or planted by the authorities. But suddenly they have to go through this exercise? LOL. And I thought some CTers (like yourself?) thought Oswald was working with the fantasy conspirators. So why not just tell him to put something in the bag to get his prints on it? And what good would it do them to get Oswald's prints on a bag only 18 inches long? This fantasy is way too complex and uncertain to be a part of any plan.
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Whew. That is quite a plan. If your fantasy conspirators control the evidence, why go through this complicated and bizarre charade and instead just say they found a bag with Oswald's prints on it?
Strawman. When, Mr Smith, did I equate conspirators trying to frame Mr Oswald before the event with your heroes in the 'investigative' cover-up?
That is after all what most CTers claim about any evidence against Oswald. That it is faked or planted by the authorities. But suddenly they have to go through this exercise? LOL.
Strawman
And I thought some CTers (like yourself?) thought Oswald was working with the fantasy conspirators. So why not just tell him to put something in the bag to get his prints on it?
Strawman
And what good would it do them to get Oswald's prints on a bag only 18 inches long?
Already explained----------try in future reading a post BEFORE answering it! Thumb1:
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Strawman. When, Mr Smith, did I equate conspirators trying to frame Mr Oswald before the event with your heroes in the 'investigative' cover-up?
Strawman
Strawman
Already explained----------try in future reading a post BEFORE answering it! Thumb1:
Translation - strawman.
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(https://i.imgur.com/gVBU0wa.jpg)
The translation to the above----
T-2 = FBI informant Harry Holmes
"A Dallas agent" = mentioned Special Agent Chas Brown
The motive clear...get Oswald to leave his fingerprints on this long paper bag.
(https://harveyandlee.net/JH%20PIX/Nixie1.jpg)
(https://harveyandlee.net/JH%20PIX/Nixie2.jpg)
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What were “items” in the bag?
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What were “items” in the bag?
See reply #2 on page 1 ;)