Jerry, did Stephen Fagin provide some actual measurements of the individual bricks around the window? Or is my memory playing tricks on me?
(https://images2.imgbox.com/ad/c2/2kIbzXYT_o.jpg)
Cartoon Ernie still can't figure out the correct amount of window opening. He must have five years in on it by now. :D
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48364932302_9a5cba9d0e_c.jpg)
How he's added in Dealey Plaza. Usually one improves a skill as time goes on.
In 2019 I made quick measurements of south face bricks as 43" L and 13" H for runs of 5 brick and 5 mortar. I did not record fractional inches, if any. I will recheck when I can get back to big D.
Anyone with a brain knows that Oswald could not have pulled off the feat with the gun they found up there. He would have had to assemble the gun [no proof or witnesses saw this happen] after bringing it in, and he would have had to sight and align the scope. There's no way he could have pulled all of this off AND made perfect shots in 6 seconds when many shooting experts couldn't pull off the same sequence under controlled settings.
What Oswald Apologists don't want to HearOswald's co-workers stated they broke for lunch at 11:50 that day of the assassination. Oswald stayed behind as they took the elevator down. Meaning Oswald had 40 minutes to re-assemble the rifle- from 11:50 to 12:30. With a screwdriver. Or a quarter. Oswald had that rifle since March 25 or about eight months before that day. Marina testified that she saw him practicing with it. Adrian Alba testified that he and Oswald talked a great deal about guns. In other words, Oswald was not a novice with that weapon.
Shooting the 6.5 X 52 mm, 7.35 x 51mm Cartridges and the Carcano Rifles,
an article by Dave Emary, Senior Ballistician of Hornady Manufacturing
____________________________________________________________
The 6.5 X 52 mm cartridge has taken a great deal of criticism as being
underpowered and anemic. From a ballistic standpoint this is a little hard
to justify. The Swedish 6.5 X 55 mm cartridge is considered an outstanding
cartridge yet it is only able to produce 100 fps more velocity with a
156-grain bullet in the M96 rifle. The 6.5 X 55 requires a maximum average
pressure of 55,000 psi and approximately 6 more grains of powder to
produce this meager gain in performance. The . 30-30 Winchester, regarded
as an adequate deer rifle and known to have killed many moose and bear
produces 2,220 fps in a 24” barrel with a 170 grain bullet. The 6.5 X 52
mm fires a bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient, at a higher
velocity, shoots flatter and has far more penetration capability than the
.30-30. From the standpoint of a service rifle cartridge the 6.5 X 52 with
its relatively low operating pressure, coupled with its modest powder
charge would result in much less barrel throat erosion and wear. This
would equate to longer barrel life and decreased operating cost. In fact,
much of what was done in the Carcano rifle/ammunition system was aimed at
long barrel life, as will be shown later. From my point of view the 6.5 X
52 is a very efficient cartridge, offering adequate performance for what
it was intended.
The only fault that one might level against the 6.5 X 52 as a military
cartridge is that it had relatively humane terminal ballistics. The very
long, blunt nosed bullet coupled with the fast twist rate of the gun
resulted in a bullet that was very stable with a very high resistance to
tumbling. The cartridge was known to have inflicted many “through and
through” wounds, just leaving a small wound channel. The bullet
typically would not tumble inside its’ target unless it encountered
something hard such as bone. When it did tumble the wounding effect is
well known.
____________________________________________________________
The original 6.5 X 52 mm Carcano design used a gain twist barrel. The gain
twist results in a very slow initial twist in the barrel progressively
getting faster until the full twist rate is attained at the muzzle. The
slow initial twist results in substantially less torque being imparted to
the bullet during the highest loading phase of the interior ballistic
cycle. This results in significantly less barrel wear in the throat. This
coupled with the very deep rifling of the barrel would result in barrels
that would have a very long wear and accuracy life. This in fact is the
case. Many M91 model rifles show signs of considerable amounts of
ammunition being fired through them, because of the crazed/frosted
condition of the bore, yet still show very strong rifling and shoot well
with the proper size bullets. The 7.35 X 51 mm Carcano rifles used a
standard fixed twist barrel. The Carcano bolt is the model of a simple,
easy to field strip bolt. It is about as fool proof as you can get for a
common soldier. The Carcano trigger has taken a considerable amount of
criticism. The trigger is basically a Mauser type two-stage trigger. In
almost all cases if you find the trigger rough or creepy simply polishing
the sear and trigger mating faces result in a very acceptable trigger for
a military rifle. For the most part I have found Carcano triggers have
less creep, are more crisp and lighter than the majority of Mauser
triggers I have encountered.
The materials used in the Carcano are excellent. These rifles were made
from special steels perfected by the Czechs, for which the Italians paid
royalties. If you have ever tried doing any work on a Carcano receiver you
will find out just how hard and tough the steel is. The Carcano has also
received a reputation as being a “weak” design. Nothing could be
further from the truth. The Italians made a small run of Carcanos early in
WW II chambered for 8 X 57 JS. The Germans rechambered some Carcanos to 8
X 57 JS late in WW II. These rifles were also proofed for this cartridge.
The CIP minimum suggested proof pressure for the 8 x 57 JS cartridge is
73,500 psi. I hardly call this a weak action.
____________________________________________________________
The Italians apparently realized that a 300-meter battle zero was a bit
impractical and with the introduction of the M38 models went to a 200
meter battle zero. This zero results in a maximum height of trajectory of
5.5” – 6.5” at a range of approximately 100 yards, depending on
barrel length. With this sight setting, by simply holding on the middle of
the torso, it would have been hard to miss the target out to about 220
meters. The Carcano’s also used a unique sight picture. The proper sight
picture for regulated sights on a Carcano is with the front sight in the
very bottom of the rear sight groove. This is how the Italian army manuals
instructed that the sights be used. Potentially, this would allow for two
battle sight settings. The normal use as mentioned above would be a 200
meter zero. Using the Mauser sighting method, the front sight level with
the rear sight, would result in a zero of 330 – 350 meters. This is
about the maximum range practical for attempting to engage a target with
iron sights. I contend with the Carcano the Italians had a very
intelligent approach for a battle rifle. The fixed sights were basically
fool proof. The Italians must have realized with the M38 models that
nearly all small arms engagements occurred inside of 200 meters. The fixed
sights with a 200 meter zero would have been fool proof for a soldier
under stress, who was probably a poor judge of distance to begin with. The
soldier would have had to do nothing but point and shoot at the middle of
his enemy for ranges out to 220 – 230 meters. How much more simple and
effective could it have been made.
____________________________________________________________
6.5 x 52 mm
The Carcano rifles are capable of outstanding accuracy. With the exception
of a military issue type load in the short carbines they are very pleasant
to shoot from a recoil standpoint. Because of the above mentioned sight
picture for the Carcano, front sight in the bottom of the rear sight
notch, it is very important to have a consistent stock- cheek weld for
consistent accuracy. It is often very helpful to use a carbide lamp or a
sight black product to blacken the sights, which improves contrast and
sight picture.
____________________________________________________________
CONCLUSION:
The 6.5 X 52 is a very useful and capable cartridge. It served well as a
military cartridge for over 80 years. The 7.35 X 51 would have been an
even more effective military cartridge than the 6.5 X 52 had its timing
been different. It is interesting to note that the .308 Winchester / 7.62
X 51 mm NATO and the 7.35 X 51 mm are nearly the same dimensions. Both the
6.5 and 7.35 cartridges are fun to shoot and properly loaded capable of
very good accuracy. The Carcano rifle is a well made rifle that is by no
means weak or poorly manufactured. They are reliable and strong rifles
that are fun to shoot and offer a tremendous variety of types and markings
for the collector. I will admit that they are a rather utilitarian rifle
as compared to some others. However, they are probably one of the most
efficient, cost effective, user friendly battle rifles produced in their
era. The rifle, ammunition combination properly loaded is capable of
accuracy that will rival the most accurate of the Mauser chamberings.
____________________________________________________________
Carcano Homepage: Italian Military Rifles and Carbines
http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/
Anyone with a brain knows that Oswald could not have pulled off the feat with the gun they found up there. He would have had to assemble the gun [no proof or witnesses saw this happen] after bringing it in, and he would have had to sight and align the scope. There's no way he could have pulled all of this off AND made perfect shots in 6 seconds when many shooting experts couldn't pull off the same sequence under controlled settings.
The factory Carcano is automatically battle-sighted out to 230mThree "perfect shots"? Wouldn't one "perfect" shot be enough? He missed with his first, missed - missed as in killing - with his second, and then about 8-9 seconds after the first hit the target on his third shot. He missed the first at nearly point blank range. Missed or deflected.
Oswald used the iron sights. The scope was an ego thing.
No precise aiming needed. Track the man's middle. Snuff when ready.
Oswald's co-workers stated they broke for lunch at 11:50 that day of the assassination. Oswald stayed behind as they took the elevator down. Meaning Oswald had 40 minutes to re-assemble the rifle- from 11:50 to 12:30. With a screwdriver. Or a quarter. Oswald had that rifle since March 25 or about eight months before that day. Marina testified that she saw him practicing with it. Adrian Alba testified that he and Oswald talked a great deal about guns. In other words, Oswald was not a novice with that weapon.
I think anyone who believes Oswald was incapable of assembling that rifle or that he didn't have enough time is ignoring a great deal of evidence.
Three "perfect shots"? Wouldn't one "perfect" shot be enough? He missed with his first, missed - missed as in killing - with his second, and then about 8-9 seconds after the first hit the target on his third shot. He missed the first at nearly point blank range. Missed or deflected.
I think if you need to take three shots to kill a man you can't characterize the first two as "perfect shots." Unless he was trying to miss with the first two? In which case, never mind.
Well, there seems to be an awful lot of evidence that the first shot struck JFK. The large body of consistent witness recollections of the 1.......2...3 shot spacing with the last two shots in rapid succession in itself is inconsistent with a first shot miss. And there are at least 22 witnesses who said it struck JFK. There is no evidence at all to contradict the Connally's evidence that JBC was struck on the second shot The second shot striking JBC is corroborated by several witnesses: Dave Powers, Gayle Newman, Wm. Greer, and George Hickey. We can see the damage of the third shot. So what evidence is there of a missed shot? Start with evidence that contradicts the evidence that the first shot struck JFK.
The second shot striking JBC is corroborated by several witnesses: Dave Powers, Gayle Newman, Wm. Greer, and George Hickey??
_Then they were obviously eyeballing the guv, not Kennedy, when the womanizer was busy ducking Jackie's punches and being struck by cs399 at supersonic speed
If Mr Andrew Mason is correct then 3 shots were fired in about 4.8 secs.
It matches well with Harold Norman’s (closest ear witness to the shooter ) boom clack clack spacing.
There has been suggestion made that the “clack clack” noise may be the “clink clink” noise of shells bouncing rather than manual bolt operation.
If so then a semi auto rifle such as an FN-FAL with larger scope centrally mounted , could have been the rifle used.
Such rifle seen by Arnold Rowland from distance when shooter was at SW window at 12;15 , could have been mistaken as an 30.06 hunting rifle much more probably than the MC rifle with scope mounted to side.
The FN.-FALcould be disassembled (barrel removed from receiver )such that both parts could be Possibly hidden under a jacket . Or brought into the building in a 24” length package?
The shooter would need an accomplice to help use the East elevator to descend to the 2nd floor and exit out into storage room at approximately 45sec post shots
(Note: this possibly resolves the Mrs Garner by the 4th floor staircase and Adams and Styles descending staircase not seeing anyone on the staircase.)
Accomplice returns elevator to 5th floor and locks it there by 60sec post shots,
(Note: elevator travel speed approx 5 sec per floor based on WC testimony of approx 30 sec time to travel from
1st floor to 6th floor.)
The rifle could be temporarily hidden in the storage room or lunchroom just before Baker/Truly reach 2nd floor landing approx 85-90 sec post shots.
The questions about the why, when and how an MC rifle with useless scope was placed on the 6th floor, are I must admit, problematic to resolve as part of a CT theory.
As for the man with rifle at the SW window per Arnold Rowland, that’s at 12:15, then he is not seen again by Rowland.
So this gunman moved to the SE window by not later than 12;24 so as to have time to put the box in the window before it’s recorded in the Bronson film approx 12:25.
So it’s probable that the black man that Rowland saw in the SE window at
12:15 was BRW who leaves that window by at least not later than about 12:23.
So a heory of a shooter with semi auto rifle at SW who is the same who moves to the SE window would be supported by Norman hearing only 3 shots from that SE window and not any other more distance noise by a second shooter at the SW window.
If the operation of the East elevator gate and slowing elevator adds 15 secs = 75 secs total time it’s still possible that TrulyBaker arriving at 70-75 sec to the elevators at ground floor would not perceive East elevator had been in operation a few seconds prior.
There might be a ? about if the cables were visible and If any lateral swaying occurs for a few seconds after and elevator cab has traveled 3 floors upwards.
Marina testified that she saw him practicing with it.
There are problems with Rowlands' credibility and the "detail" he seemed to invent. Maybe Rowland thought more detail would increase believabilty in his stories.
I noticed that his face seemed more square-set than angular, as it had appeared in the newspapers and on television. All of the people in the car were responding to the friendly crowd and waving. Kennedy was looking to his left towards those of us in Dealy Plaza. As the car came abreast of where I was sitting on the wall, Kennedy turned to wave at those on the other side of the street. The next moments have remained fresh in my mind for nearly twenty years. In one respect, the whole experience seemed to take only a few seconds. In another, it resembled slow-motion action that one sees in the movies at times. What has been recorded as taking less than ten seconds seemed like an eternity to me. I’m sure others on the scene felt the same as I. When the presidential car moved just a few feet past where I was sitting, President Kennedy looked back to our side of the street. Just at that moment the whole joy and good will of the day was shattered by the sound of a shot. It took an instant to realize that something had happened. My first instinct was to disbelieve my own ears. Nothing could have been further from my mind at that moment than that someone was trying to kill the President. My first thought was that it must have been a backfire. I’m sure many other people around me must have thought the same thing for there was no instantaneous reaction from the crowd. It was as if no one could really believe that such a thing was even possible, certainly not in Dallas.
I looked up then at the Texas Book Depository Building. What I saw made my “blood run cold.”
Poised in the corner window of the sixth floor was the same young man I had noticed several times before the motorcade arrived. There was one difference—this time he held a rifle in his hands, pointing toward the Presidential car. He steadied the rifle against the cornice and while he moved quickly, he didn’t seem to be in any kind of panic. All of this happened in the matter of a second or two. Then came the sickening sound of a second shot and I looked quickly back to the presidential car which had moved only a few feet, still not apparently aware that it was the assassin’s target.
I saw Governor John Connally reacting to being wounded and the instinctive response of his wife to try and help him. I remember thinking, “Oh my God! He’s going to kill them, he’s going to kill them all!” The immensity and horror of what I was witnessing almost overwhelmed me. I wanted to cry, I wanted to scream, but I couldn’t utter a sound. I could only watch the whole monstrous drama unfold.
Just then a woman close to me screamed in full realization of what was happening. She uttered something like, “Oh, my God!” But even as she did my eyes darted back to that solitary figure who was changing history. He was aiming again and I wanted to pray, to beg God to somehow make him miss his target. There wasn’t time to pray, not even time to think about what I was seeing but the sight became so fixed in my mind that I’ll never forget it for as long as I live. There was nothing I could do. It was a hopeless, sinking feeling. I would have gladly given my life in that moment to be able to save the President, but no one could move fast enough to shield him with his own body. Then another shot rang out.
All of this took only a few seconds. I didn’t realize at that moment that I was the only person who was actually watching the man firing the rifle. Simultaneous with the third shot, I swung my eyes back to the Presidential car which had moved on down to my left on Elm, and I saw a sight that made my whole being sink in despair. A spray of red came from around the President’s head. I knew the bullet had struck its intended target. Later, I would learn that the whole scene had taken less than ten seconds. In retrospect, it seemed like several minutes.
By the time the third shot had been fired, there was sheer pandemonium. Everyone was fully aware that the noise they were hearing was shots, not backfire. This was really happening. It was like a nightmare, only I couldn’t wake up from it. No one had to tell me what was ahead. The moment I saw the effects of the third shot, I knew that the assassin had been successful. No person could have survived that kind of wound.
Mass confusion and hysteria set in and I must admit, I was feeling it too. People were screaming. Men and women dressed in their fine suits and dresses, fell to the ground, getting them dirty, but hopefully getting out of the line of fire. At that moment, no one but me seemed to know where the shots had come from. By now uniformed policemen and plain clothes police, who I assumed were Secret Service or F.B.I. Agents came running from every direction. I jumped from the wall to try to get out of the line of fire. I never saw so many guns in my life. Most of the police were running towards the triple underpass which perhaps was a hundred feet or so ahead of the motorcade. Some were running towards an area to the right, slightly raised, which has come to be called the “Grassy Knoll.” Much speculation has been raised about whether there was another gunman there who was trying to catch the President in a cross-fire. Having witnessed the whole scene, I can say with certainty there was only one gunman present that day and all shots were fired from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. It is easy to understand why many thought the shots were coming from the area of the underpass as the buildings and open area combine to produce an “echo” effect.
Even as I hit the ground, my first instinct was to look back up to that man on the sixth floor. “Was he going to fire again?” I wondered. By now the motorcade was beginning to speed up and in only a couple of seconds the President’s car had disappeared under the triple underpass. To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! He didn’t appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do. He seemed pleased that no one had realized where the shots were coming from. Then he did something that puzzled me. Very slowly and deliberately he set the rifle on its butt and just stayed there for a moment to savor what he had done, like a hunter who has “bagged his buck.” Then, with no sense of haste, he simply moved slowly away from the window until he disappeared from my line of vision.
If Mr Andrew Mason is correct then 3 shots were fired in about 4.8 secs.Z195 to z313 = 118 frames = 6.4 seconds. The last two were 42 frames = 2.3 seconds apart so there was a tad more than 4 seconds - 76 frames - between the first and second.
If the WC photo exhibits are correct then the sight picture of the SE window shooter either thru his scope or via iron sights, is obstructed to some degree between Z186 to Z210That was a flawed conclusion from the flawed FBI re-enactment in May 1964. Even their own photos showed that the full trunk and the JFK stand-in was visible at z207.
Is it being suggested that the shooter attempted to shoot thru the tree branches?
If so, was that a shot a hit or a miss?According to all the evidence, this was the first shot and JFK reacted immediately to it by moving left, clutching his chest/neck, assuming an expressionless face ie. not smiling and waving. So it was not a miss.
If the 1st shot could plausibly be at z195 and is a hit to JFKs back and thru to Gov Connally then should not Conally be already turned by impact of that billet when the limo emerges fromAccording to all the evidence, it did not hit Governor Connally in the back/right armpit. The Connally's insisted that the Governor was hit in the back on the second shot. The trajectory at z195 is right to left at an angle of at least 13 degrees. You can see this easily in the above photo. The bullet exited under and on the left side of JFK's tie knot. JFK's midline was not right of Connally's right armpit, let alone the 5-5.5 inches right that would be required. Also the bullet condition of CE399 does not fit the wound characteristics of the wrist wound or the damage to the clothing (particularly the french cuff of JBC's right sleeve).
Behind the Sign approx Z222?
If Z 195 is a miss, and if there there’s a shot at Z223-4 that is causing a reaction of both men , would not that rule rule out an MC rifle since 195-223= 28 frames = 28/18.5 = approx 1.5 secs.?They are both reacting to the first shot, according to all the evidence. JBC is reacting as he said: he recognized it as a rifle shot, feared an assassination was underway and turned to his right rear to check on JFK. That is what he does from z230-z271 before he is hit in the right armpit as he is turned right.
That was a flawed conclusion from the flawed FBI re-enactment in May 1964. Even their own photos showed that the full trunk and the JFK stand-in was visible at z207.
The better re-enactment done by the Secret Service in early December 1963 shows the tree as it was on November 22, assuming there was no growth in the previous two weeks or so. It shows that the tree really never fully obstructed Oswald's view from the SN.
| (https://images2.imgbox.com/ba/c9/AGMZAV9w_o.gif) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) Here's a better quality animation. | (https://images2.imgbox.com/f4/7f/XiiFpRRZ_o.png) |
| (https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338984/m1/1/high_res/) | (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1qOivy7ADmBc9oZ6W5WrJVc89AT4gH2mc) |
It also shows that JFK was visible when he was between the lamppost and Stemmons sign.
(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/View_from_SN_after_tree.JPG)
That corresponds to between z190 and z200.
| (https://images2.imgbox.com/66/cc/KCSEiXi0_o.jpg) | Graphic at Left (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) Top Inset: Mason used to plot the limousine emerging from behind the tree when it was even closer to the top of the tree. (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) 2nd from top: In Mason's picture, the rear bumper (which is close to the street) is pretty much on the line between the base of the lamppost and the tree in the infield. (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) 3rd from top: Couldn't find the Mason film-capture frame uncropped, but this one shows the line from the base of the lamppost would arrive at the base of the tree. (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) Bottom Inset: When the rear of the limousine (ie: rear bumper) reaches the line between the lamppost and th tree, the limousine is much further along than the Z189 position shown on the map. (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/View_from_SN_after_tree.JPG) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) Mason's latest film-capture frame shows the limousine even further along than his earlier claim. (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1hIselIptVoyeHQQWPGOTo6fNTZesIV-k) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) It's more like Z210 or later. |
According to all the evidence JFK reacted immediately to it by moving left, clutching his chest/neck, assuming an expressionless face ie. not smiling and waving. So it was not a miss.
According to all the evidence, it did not hit Governor Connally in the back. The trajectory is right to left exiting under and on the left side of JFK's tie knot. JFK's midline was not right of Connally's right armpit, let alone 4-5 inches right that would be required.
| (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1h_8WIFw4PUqIEp_9P8M59dOMs8PGOBSh) | (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1X2yb5u7l9CuouFDagDZdn4ytbyi3emDW) |
Also the bullet condition of CE399 does not fit the wound characteristics of the wrist wound or the damage to the clothing (particularly the french cuff of JBC's right sleeve).
They are both reacting to the first shot, according to all the evidence. JBC is reacting as he said: he recognized it as a rifle shot, feared an assassination was underway and tried to turn to his right rear to check on JFK. That is what he does from z230-z271 before he is hit in the right armpit as he is turned right.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1Kd5u9YR64xN4M47GBUZJH3HxCKBzsPJz) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) Frame showing lamp post | (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1aLHMyLB1luukiE5FgxueSswjk7Rj2adB) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) The clearer Z193 frame | (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=102xMuQqRUBhGcPH09LlGYBBPi_TDcf1_) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) The blurred Z195 frame |
(https://images2.imgbox.com/ce/43/DbkHV09t_o.jpg)
I've been adding in some hedges and shrubbery to my 3D model. The road stripes are close to their placement on the Culter Plat and comparing them to Z-frames. My work is hobbyist. Professional 3D teams tend to work on the "big" issues, like the Backyard Photos, SBT and head shot, but smaller items like the foliage-blocking and autopsy photo orientation are also important.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Frame showing lamp post
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
The clearer Z193 frame
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
The blurred Z195 frame
(https://images2.imgbox.com/ce/43/DbkHV09t_o.jpg)Beautiful work Jerry, especially the tree detail. Are the trees generated with fractals? Thanks for sharing.
I've been adding in some hedges and shrubbery to my 3D model. The road stripes are close to their placement on the Culter Plat and comparing them to Z-frames. My work is hobbyist. Professional 3D teams tend to work on the "big" issues, like the Backyard Photos, SBT and head shot, but smaller items like the foliage-blocking and autopsy photo orientation are also important.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Frame showing lamp post
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
The clearer Z193 frame
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
The blurred Z195 frame
Beautiful work Jerry, especially the tree detail. Are the trees generated with fractals? Thanks for sharing.
Looks great Jerry! I agree, the details are important. They help make a valuable tool even more useful and accurate. All the hard work required to create it becomes so worthwhile when it helps with our understanding of the assassination.
There's more accuracy coming when the 3D professionals create a model using cloud-points. My model is just comparing the features in the model with photos and maps. I have a few aerial photos and a greatly-enlarged copy of the Myers map.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/e2/a5/WrOpVZls_o.jpg)
I find the color of the shrubbery odd. Along the walkway between the pergola and the corner of Elm/Houston, it seems purplish (inset pictures, lower-right). In the Zapruder film, the shrubbery in the background is orange-like. It could be two different plants or just the lighting.
For those unfamiliar with SketchUp, a "component" is an object that's imported as a "component", or made from scratch and grouped together as a "component" by yourself in SketchUp. The "component" sits in SketchUp's Component Tray. From the tray, you drag a component and situate it on your model. When you duplicate the component, you're not doubling the file size it needs (it gets that information from the "component" you made or imported). So making, say, one-hundred windows from a component doesn't increase your model's file size.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/ce/43/DbkHV09t_o.jpg)
I've been adding in some hedges and shrubbery to my 3D model. The road stripes are close to their placement on the Culter Plat and comparing them to Z-frames. My work is hobbyist. Professional 3D teams tend to work on the "big" issues, like the Backyard Photos, SBT and head shot, but smaller items like the foliage-blocking and autopsy photo orientation are also important.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Frame showing lamp post
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
The clearer Z193 frame
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
The blurred Z195 frame
The trees are a single component that was free online. I don't recall if it was an oak tree. I did some scaling to approximate the trees in DP. Some rotation for variation. Can't literally recreate the individual trees and bushes in DP as they were that day. It's more for cosmetics.Thanks for the details. That software is amazing, especially compared to the archaic text based modeling I’ve used since the last millennium. Someone, long ago, wrote a routine for fractal trees, but I could never get it to work very well for my Dealey Plaza model. Thus, my lollipop trees. I updated my Oak Tree using overlaying ellipsoids with a checker pattern using transparency. I compared your SN view to the Secret Service’s film, and am quite impressed with your tree. It probably takes a modeler to appreciate the amount of work that goes into even simple looking objects. I like the graphical design concept (like SketchUp) but this old dog gets too much enjoyment creating objects line by line. I hope to see more of your plaza modeling. I have a lot of pictures and video (with time and date) and if you (or anyone else) would like a particular view please ask.
The "leaves" are a 2D photo texture that portray a few leaves separated by transparency. The texture needs a flat surface to be "painted" on, which are the squares seen in the monochrome "zoom view".
I had to modify the generic tree to simulate the branch blocking the view between the sniper's nest and roadway. Maybe a professional 3D team could take 1963-era photos of that tree and create an accurate model of the whole tree or the parts that block the view. But that's a lot of work and there has to be an interest on their part in the foliage-blocking issue.
A photo I took two years ago shows both the pergola walkway and peristyle shrubs with purple color. Bronson's film of November 23 shows purple also, although the film seems to have some colorcast that possibly shifted the color to purple.
I find the color of the shrubbery odd. Along the walkway between the pergola and the corner of Elm/Houston, it seems purplish (inset pictures, lower-right). In the Zapruder film, the shrubbery in the background is orange-like. It could be two different plants or just the lighting.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1VgBrFST3CSJFcdr9RV5CI9BiaW51xIVJ)
I found a 3D outer-flesh model and a 3D "High-Poly" skeleton model and merged them. The "Medium-Poly" and "Low-Poly" skeleton models changed the shape of some of the bones, so I used the best-quality model. This meant a large file size, so I removed some unnecessary bones. This does not affect where the bones in the upper body appear in the model.
I'm showing how many facets are involved in the "High-Poly" skeleton model and the articulation "handles" I added. Using the "handles", each articulation point can be rotated (to a reasonable degree; some joints don't rotate much) but the articulation points themselves remain attached to the articulation point of any neighboring bone it was originally attached to. For example, one can rotate the skull but it can't be detached from the C1 (or "Atlas") vertebrae. This preserves the integrity of the skeleton.
The scapula bone is very flexible and attached to the back by large muscles. The scapula has a connection to the outer tip of the clavicle. When the inner tip of the clavicle is rotated upward, the outer tip of the clavicle rises which in turn causes the scapula (and arm bones) to rise up. I think we see in the autopsy photos that the outer shoulders of Kennedy have risen up due to rigor mortise. The raised shoulder line is fairly flat in the photo, compared to life where the shoulder line tapers down from the neck.
On my model, the distance between the neck crease and the entry wound on the skin is 2 1/8" (or 5.5 cm as reported by the Clark Panel). By raising the scapula up, we end up with a similar distance from the scapular spine to the entry wound. Those two distances being similar is what is shown in the autopsy photo of the back wound. A resting scapula would not appear as high as that seen in the autopsy photo.
I notice that young Kennedy's right clavicle protrudes from the body more so than the left. I think I see something similar in the autopsy photo, which helps to authenticate the photo.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/23/f4/cl6CwGOS_o.gif)Very interesting. I never noticed that before. I'm hoping for a DP trip later this year and would be able to take any measurements and photos you think would be helpful. Start a list and I will attempt to do what one crazy guy with a laser measure can safely manage.
Ever notice how the West and East slabs of the Triple Underpass Bridge differ in height?
(https://images2.imgbox.com/c0/c0/lz7Zy6EP_o.jpg)
A source tells me the streets slope downwards east-to-west inside the tunnel. I'm using a 1° slope in my model. I will have to merge this somehow with the 3° slope of the streets that run through the Plaza.
That's what works in my model. Might not work in yours.
Very interesting. I never noticed that before. I'm hoping for a DP trip later this year and would be able to take any measurements and photos you think would be helpful. Start a list and I will attempt to do what one crazy guy with a laser measure can safely manage.
Here is a photo of a portion of the TUP from below. I took a few years ago. Inspiring work you do.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/19/96/NHig9Ij2_o.jpg)Thanks for the schematics. Just a couple quick comments.
Thank you, James. I'll post measurement requests in graphic form here. With all the bevels, and slanted and rounded edges on the bridge, verbal description would not be accurate. Please do what measurements are safely possible. I understand some measurements may not be possible if the sun interferes with the laser. Whatever you can provide will very much help.
I'm including some of my empirical measurements so we can later see how far off I was. :D
Very good reference photo. Thank you. Your animation work and video stacks are wonderful.
Thanks for the schematics. Just a couple quick comments.
1. Hate to whine, but I will like a working copy on a clipboard, but my printer is B&W. There is very little contrast with TUP, arrows and background. Can you change the text and arrows to white with a global command?
2. I was planning to laser measure, from street level east side column heights from street curb to top in the afternoon and west side in the morning for shade. The laser will help topside, but there will be much tape measuring.
Looking forward to doing this! I have done several measurements here and have a feel for what is in store.
I see what you mean. I'll re-export the 3D views in texture-less shadow-off monochrome and add high-contrast arrows. I'll aim for a graphic with lots of white space, to help extend your ink. Thank you letting me know.Not the ink, my tired eyes ;)
Here we go ...Thanks for this Jerry. I was able to get the hotel to print it for me before almost finishing the measurements today. I hope to finish in the morning.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/03/63/wjECpTKl_o.jpg)
That's better.
Thanks for this Jerry. I was able to get the hotel to print it for me before almost finishing the measurements today. I hope to finish in the morning.
Thank you, James. Whatever you can provide will help improve my bridge model. Sorry if some of the long measurements I asked for encountered impediments to the laser path and are not possible.Just got home and unpacking stuff, and brain. I'm pretty happy about the results. I think the only measurement not (safely) made was the 90deg distance of the overpass, basically due to the freeways to the west being too close to line of site. Some longer distances are composed of smaller segments. Your revised drawing helped a lot with documenting measurements without having to try to describe them while measuring. More later in a day to two.
Just got home and unpacking stuff, and brain. I'm pretty happy about the results. I think the only measurement not (safely) made was the 90deg distance of the overpass, basically due to the freeways to the west being too close to line of site. Some longer distances are composed of smaller segments. Your revised drawing helped a lot with documenting measurements without having to try to describe them while measuring. More later in a day to two.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/23/f4/cl6CwGOS_o.gif)With the laser I measured the heights above curb of the second column from the north (south side of sidewalk) on both the east and west sides. The height for the east column is 24’ 5” while the west column is 23’1”. The difference of 16” over 124’ gives an average slope of -0.58 degrees in the westward direction.
Ever notice how the West and East slabs of the Triple Underpass Bridge differ in height?
(https://images2.imgbox.com/c0/c0/lz7Zy6EP_o.jpg)
A source tells me the streets slope downwards east-to-west inside the tunnel. I'm using a 1° slope in my model. I will have to merge this somehow with the 3° slope of the streets that run through the Plaza.
That's what works in my model. Might not work in yours.
With the laser I measured the heights above curb of the second column from the north (south side of sidewalk) on both the east and west sides. The height for the east column is 24’ 5” while the west column is 23’1”. The difference of 16” over 124’ gives an average slope of -0.58 degrees in the westward direction.
I have a level app on my smartphone, but unfortunately only measures slopes as whole numbers without decimal precision. Readings for the eastern half were 1 degree and for the western half 0 degrees, for an average of -0.5 degree for the length of the underpass. Readings of the sidewalk approaching the underpass showed as 3 degrees.
Photos of the support columns from the inside shows a change of slope near the midpoint of the underpass.
(https://i.imgur.com/eJ1sVm6.gif)
| (https://nationalmcmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/1958-harley-davidson-duo-glide_25.jpg) | (https://cdn1.mecum.com/auctions/lv0120/lv0120-392754/images/lv20-r356-11-1574460185058@2x.jpg) |
| (https://cdn1.mecum.com/auctions/lv0122/lv0122-488981/images/-15-1631301228320@2x.jpg) | (https://www.shannons.com.au/library/images/auctions/MA2VCK3D1551R2C0/KB6DAS57WSL9F85H/1600x1066/1960-harley-davidson-fl-duo-glide-motorcycle.jpg) |
| (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/earlymotorcade3.jpg) | (https://dygtyjqp7pi0m.cloudfront.net/i/36663/31584650_3.jpg) |
(https://images2.imgbox.com/35/29/zhpVtYHB_o.jpg)(https://i.ibb.co/mFnFbMd/Compare-JO-Hum3-D-Ford-side.jpg)
Hubcaps on the limousine in 1963 were the large "sombrero"-style hubcaps from the 1957 Lincoln Premiere. Stock Continental hubcaps wouldn't fit the bigger tires used because of the limousine's weight.
| (https://i.ibb.co/BGmhMvq/men-in-car-side-open.jpg) | (https://i.ibb.co/S3ZChrH/JFK-limo-parade.jpg) |
(https://images2.imgbox.com/35/29/zhpVtYHB_o.jpg)
Hubcaps on the limousine in 1963 were the large "sombrero"-style hubcaps from the 1957 Lincoln Premiere. Stock Continental hubcaps wouldn't fit the bigger tires used because of the limousine's weight.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/earlymotorcade3.jpg) (https://dygtyjqp7pi0m.cloudfront.net/i/36663/31584650_3.jpg)
Thumb1: Good work Jerry. Thanks for sharing!
+1
Jerry's 3D imaging prowess just gets better and better.
JohnM
(http://www.watermelon-kid.com/history/dallas/images/photos/jfk/DP3-02.jpg) East Side | (https://livingnewdeal.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Triple_underpass_dallas_2014-1000x666.jpg) West Side |
(https://images2.imgbox.com/b7/0c/JfmRNRDX_o.jpg)
Was applying some of James Hackerott's on-site measurements to the Underpass model.
And was looking at some pictures when I noticed something odd.
East Side
West Side
The two single pillars in the center of the bridge project outward from the bridge more than the walkway tunnel twinned pillars. Maybe half a foot? Am I wrong?
Here are two more images. One shows the arching steps from the south tunnel and the second shows the south column profile from the north tunnel-showing the column is recessed from the roadway column. I think I have dimensions for the pedestal so we can estimate the offset of the two columns. I will look later today. Jerry, I’m curious, can your software create a file for 3D printing?
(https://images2.imgbox.com/b7/0c/JfmRNRDX_o.jpg)
Was applying some of James Hackerott's on-site measurements to the Underpass model.
And was looking at some pictures when I noticed something odd.
East Side
West Side
The two single pillars in the center of the bridge project outward from the bridge more than the walkway tunnel twinned pillars. Maybe half a foot? Am I wrong?
Thank you, James. This is good information I'll incorporate into my model.My apology for the confusion. My goal was to measure bottom to top of the columns. This turned out to be more difficult than I anticipated. What I should’ve written is “I measured the heights above the pedestal tops…” for the tunnel columns. Columns W1, W2 and W3 are numbered from the north increasing southward. The same for the east columns E1, E2 and E3. I began the measuring project with bridge column E3, which does extend down to the curb. The same with W3. I then began measurements of the tunnel columns W1 and W2. But for the tunnel columns I was not able to get direct (single) measurement from the top to curb, so decided on using the pedestal top as a base. My thinking then was to know the pedestal heights and add the two measurements. But the tunnel pedestals don’t reach the curb as they sit on blocks above the curb. It appears I did not make measurements of those blocks. Therefore, I can only provide column top to pedestal top lengths for tunnel columns. Here are data for each column. Precision or accuracy is not impressive.
A while ago, you posted about the heights of the bridge columns ( Link (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=post;quote=139988;topic=3127.48;last_msg=149214) ).
"With the laser I measured the heights above curb of the second
column from the north (south side of sidewalk) on both the east
and west sides. The height for the east column is 24’ 5” while the
west column is 23’1”. The difference of 16” over 124’ gives an
average slope of -0.58 degrees in the westward direction."
One source said that not including the railing aspect of the Triple underpass, the [road into the] Underpass is 24 ft lower than the level of Houston street. I understand you measured the two columns from the top of the sidewalks but where to the top? That is, it would seem 24' 5" is not to the very top of the pillars but maybe to the bridge roadbed or the top of the railing?
I may be the last to know this. I just looked at Dealey Plaza in Google Earth Pro-with 3D Buildings layer. Elevation data is not only given for buildings but trees, plaza structures and even automobiles parked in the lots! Elevations for some details of the TUP are available. All elevation data are given with 1 foot resolution.Very helpful. On my 3D Sketchup model of DP I get 490 feet from the bottom SE corner of the TSBD to the middle of Elm at the entrance to the underpass. So the average slope is arcsin(26/490)=3.04 degrees.
Elevation, Ft
426 Center of Houston St. / Main intersection
400 Elm just at the underpass
398 Elm just after the underpass
419-420 Top of bridge at track level
423 Rail
426 Top of East Elm/Main pillar
| (https://d2skn5554g4boz.cloudfront.net/2020-website/678/3481172/large/3481172_9.jpg) | (https://d2skn5554g4boz.cloudfront.net/2020-website/678/3481172/large/3481172_7.jpg) | (http://www.groverproctor.us/jfk/i/SamHolland-GrassyKnoll.jpg) |
| (https://images2.imgbox.com/8e/db/yRtxOL8y_o.jpg) | (https://images2.imgbox.com/06/15/uZPhkkp8_o.jpg) |
There's an auction closing today for a fence section owned by Larry Howard. Link (https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/lot-detail/li/348117206780110/cat/0/SortOrder/hp)
(https://d2skn5554g4boz.cloudfront.net/2020-website/678/3481172/large/3481172_9.jpg) (https://d2skn5554g4boz.cloudfront.net/2020-website/678/3481172/large/3481172_7.jpg) (http://www.groverproctor.us/jfk/i/SamHolland-GrassyKnoll.jpg)
I believe this is not the 1963 fence because the fence Holland and Lane stood behind in 1966 had a different taper. I believe the 1963 fence had no gaps between the pickets and that there was a curvature on the front surface of each picket, in order to simulate a "stockade fence".
(https://images2.imgbox.com/8e/db/yRtxOL8y_o.jpg) (https://images2.imgbox.com/06/15/uZPhkkp8_o.jpg)
Just curious, but why would you use the word "simulate" with respect to the 1963 fence? Why do you believe the 1963 fence was Not an actual "Stockade fence"? In 1963, the parking lot behind that fencing was still nothing but actual ground/soil.
The original stockade was built of logs, placed side-by-side vertically to form a defensive wall. The 1963 decorative "stockade fence" was made of planks with machined curvature on one face. The 1980s version that's up for auction seems like small irregular logs sawed in half vertically. Evidently they were looking to evoke the "Old West" look.
No one builds traditional stockades anymore, so the term "stockade fence" now mainly refers to decorative or privacy fencing. Such a fence needs only a pointed top to be "stockade"-style and doesn't have to be curved on its front face. Such fences are usually sold in sections. The 1963 fence might be made of same-length sections that are attached to evenly-spaced metal posts.
| (https://knottlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Knott-Lab-Trajectory-Comparison-1024x626.png) | (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1GZwywh1AiSZEamh46SO4QkzcUeZRzOoD) | (https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184649/m1/1/med_res/) |
"Knott Laboratory presents digital reconstruction and findings on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy" ( Link (https://knottlab.com/blog/knott-laboratory-presents-digital-reconstruction-and-findings-on-the-assassination-of-president-john-f-kennedy/) )They also have the bullet hitting JFK in the centerline, and it looks like they have the shot coming from the western pane of the first window, rather than the eastern one. And there's nothing to account for the uncertainty of the measurement of the actual wound locations. If this is all these guys have, they're either amateurs, lazy, or just incompetent.
(https://knottlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Knott-Lab-Trajectory-Comparison-1024x626.png) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1GZwywh1AiSZEamh46SO4QkzcUeZRzOoD) (https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184649/m1/1/med_res/)
They're using the "low" entry point for Kennedy's back wound. Since they're not showing a jacket bunch, I guess they went about four-inches below the top of the jacket collar. Photos show the top of the jacket collar was tight to Kennedy's nape and went to the hairline
Connally was sitting upright (if not a little backward) in the early-Z220s while they have the Governor's torso leaning forward.
They also have the bullet hitting JFK in the centerline, and it looks like they have the shot coming from the western pane of the first window, rather than the eastern one. And there's nothing to account for the uncertainty of the measurement of the actual wound locations. If this is all these guys have, they'd either amateurs, , lazy, or just incompetent.
Like the official investigations and NOVA/Frontline shows, this study is a good-faith analysis by experts in their field. Technically, it's the most extensive 3D project to date. The road looks kind of crude, so I wonder if they ran out of time. Don't know if any programs are going to use it.They may well be working in good faith. But that doesn't mitigate the incorrect entry location or the incorrect rifle location. And the lack of any accounting for uncertainty betrays a fundamental lack of rigor. The only noteworthy thing I see in the Knott Labs animation is that they used one o' them newfangled 360 degree laser-based automated area surveyor devices to map Dealey Plaza.
There's an auction closing today for a fence section owned by Larry Howard. Link (https://www.rrauction.com/auctions/lot-detail/li/348117206780110/cat/0/SortOrder/hp)
(https://d2skn5554g4boz.cloudfront.net/2020-website/678/3481172/large/3481172_9.jpg) (https://d2skn5554g4boz.cloudfront.net/2020-website/678/3481172/large/3481172_7.jpg) (http://www.groverproctor.us/jfk/i/SamHolland-GrassyKnoll.jpg)
You are totally correct, Jerry. The fence section Howard had was not original. It's one of the many replacement sections added to the frame of the fence since 1963.
I believe this is not the 1963 fence because the fence Holland and Lane stood behind in 1966 had a different taper. I believe the 1963 fence had no gaps between the pickets and that there was a curvature on the front surface of each picket, in order to simulate a "stockade fence".
(https://images2.imgbox.com/8e/db/yRtxOL8y_o.jpg) (https://images2.imgbox.com/06/15/uZPhkkp8_o.jpg)
"Knott Laboratory presents digital reconstruction and findings on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy" ( Link (https://knottlab.com/blog/knott-laboratory-presents-digital-reconstruction-and-findings-on-the-assassination-of-president-john-f-kennedy/) )
(https://knottlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Knott-Lab-Trajectory-Comparison-1024x626.png) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1GZwywh1AiSZEamh46SO4QkzcUeZRzOoD) (https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184649/m1/1/med_res/)
They're using the "low" entry point for Kennedy's back wound. Since they're not showing a jacket bunch, I guess they went about four-inches below the top of the jacket collar. Photos show the top of the jacket collar was tight to Kennedy's nape and went to the hairline
Connally was sitting upright (if not a little backward) in the early-Z220s while they have the Governor's torso leaning forward.
The stuff concerning the jacket "bunching" along with the shirt "nape to the neck" jargon is once again pure David Copperfield Mis-Direction. How about just relying on the Autopsy Photo of JFK's naked back and the bullet hole displayed there?
Thumb1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pndDsJY/JFK-Autopsy-Photo-3l.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/4yxPgWbn/JFK-Autopsy-Photo-2g.jpg)
JohnM
The museum has the sniper window about 5 inches lower than the Dillard position. I seriously doubt the museum would have moved if for the 3D scan. And, I don’t have any idea if that would be an issue with the trajectory analysis.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/b5/ba/VZpWKoBe_o.jpg)
They're all gaga over this Knott Lab/John Orr 3D film at the Ed Forum (ie: "certainly gives Myers's schlock a run for its money"; "scientifically confirmed").
I think the model is very precise with regards to things that exist today, that the laser scanning took in. The add-ins are subjective.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/b5/ba/VZpWKoBe_o.jpg)
They're all gaga over this Knott Lab/John Orr 3D film at the Ed Forum (ie: "certainly gives Myers's schlock a run for its money"; "scientifically confirmed").
I think the model is very precise with regards to things that exist today, that the laser scanning took in. The add-ins are subjective.
I do enjoy hearing these Neanderthal's around here attempting to refute SCIENCE. They are now the walking dead. It took 60 yrs, but Knott Lab has used SCIENCE to destroy the SBT. CASE CLOSED!
There’s only one orientation for Connalys body that can align the single bullet trajectory and that is to have both of Connallys legs rotated clockwise to some degree approaching 45 degrees to match his upper torso and shoulders which appear (imo) in Z223-225 turned ( along with his head) to be turned towards the right side of the limo .
The best approximation diagram I’ve seen for Connally holding his hat is that it was held upside down with the well of the hat hanging off the left Side of his left leg , being held with his right hand using his palm to press the rim of the hat against the top of his left leg.
This orientation is about the only one that allows the bullet passing thru the top of Connalys wrist bone then into his thigh, without having to pass thru the hat or cause bloodsplatter on the hat..
I think having Connally's legs as far to the right (the right leg against the car door) is correct. If his leg were jammed right, then he couldn't get "push" to turn around to see JFK as they approached the sign. As well, the Governor's legs being far to the right meant he was "primed" to fall back towards Nellie once his upper body turned far to the right. This kind of stuff would be great tested on live models in a similar confined space.
3D models generally come orientated to the X-Y axis and have none of the off-axis fluidity of the human body. I can make my 3D models go off-axis but a live model would be needed for a guide. Otherwise it's guess-work.
Knott Lab 360 Laser Technology does Not employ "guess work". This is why it is used in court rooms across this country. Armchair JFK Assassination Researchers attempting to position Connally inside the JFK Limo is like Goober Pyle attempting brain surgery. BOTH ARE UNQUALIFIED! Follow the Science. SBT = DOA.
This is why it is used in court rooms across this country.
Sorry Royell, but you really don't know how any of this works, Hulk Connally by definition is sitting in a guessed position.
And as Jerry's graphic shows, they made a plethora of mistakes. Even some of the most well known Conspiracy researchers (the guys on your side) strongly disagree with their findings.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPRLYPM4/Don-Knotts-lab-sbf.gif)
This misguided Appeal to Authority perfectly sums up your distorted world view because when the vast majority of Medical Experts agree with the Medical Evidence or Expert photo analyst's agree with the Photographic evidence you go back to hiding under your rock.
Just because Knott Lab's cartoons have been used in court doesn't mean that their finding are beyond reproach or can't be challenged by better corrected evidence because that is how your court system works.
Btw I asked you before, when did Knott Labs scan JFK's Limo, it's position on Elm and it's occupants in their precise position or did they rely on guessing all the above from a fuzzy Zapruder frame? Which as you well remember, you claim this source is fake or are you going to backflip once again?
Anyway, your responses to this questioning of Knott Lab's work are like a broken record either you technically address the criticisms being brought forward or you can continue to rely on a very obvious cartoon, your choice!
JohnM
Laymen attempting to dismiss THE SCIENCE based on nothing more than, "because I said so" is childish. And how about watching the Knott Lab/You Tube presentations before asking questions they have already addressed? I understand you guys currently being in melt down mode, but there is No dodging the Knott Lab 360 Laser SCIENCE that is routinely accepted in court rooms across this country. The SBT has always been a THEORY, and Now SCIENCE has proven the SBT to be IMPOSSIBLE. SBT = DOA
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cx2wmFhr/johnny-english-agent-big-yawn.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrFBn0hL/broken-record.gif)
Btw you have now created a precarious conundrum for yourself, you either continue to endorse Knott Lab's recreation which as I have previously stated uses their interpretation of the Zapruder film as it's very foundation or will you continue to claim that the Zapruder film is fake because you can't have it both ways!!! So what will it be Big Boy, are you going to take your first steps to being a Man or will you remain a Coward and brainlessly support the latest lameass conspiracy theory for the rest of your life?
JohnM
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cx2wmFhr/johnny-english-agent-big-yawn.gif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrFBn0hL/broken-record.gif)
Btw you have now created a precarious conundrum for yourself, you either continue to endorse Knott Lab's recreation which as I have previously stated uses their interpretation of the Zapruder film as it's very foundation or will you continue to claim that the Zapruder film is fake because you can't have it both ways!!! So what will it be Big Boy, are you going to take your first steps to being a Man or will you remain a Coward and brainlessly support the latest lameass conspiracy theory for the rest of your life?
JohnM
The youtube video is interesting but appears flawed. It looks like they have made a number of false assumptions, and the end result is wrong. In addition to what John has pointed out, the shot did not take place at Z225, it took place at Z218 or earlier. It looks like they positioned LHO in the center of the double window not at all close to the east wall side. They are 1 to 2 feet off from where he was actually located. The first shot most likely took place with the rifle retracted into the room to avoid detection from the street below. He was likely located nearer the edge of the window by the East wall. Correcting these errors, I believe that would move JBC back to where he was actually sitting.
People using the naked eye to view whatever generation images they post on their computer
/TV Screen vs Knott Lab Laser 360 Scannings of Dealey Plaza in junction with computer evaluated still frames and photographs taken on 11/22/63. The Neanderthals vs The Science.
What version of Zapruder frames did Knott use?
"Computer evaluated still frames and photographs"? LOL! You mean images that were scanned at some point by somebody (I would bet not Knott), put on the Internet and looked at on a computer monitor. Knott Lab said they used nothing more elaborate than photogrammetry. They said the only thing laser-scanned by them was the physical Plaza in its current state.
in junction with computer evaluated still frames and photographs taken on 11/22/63.
Something is definitely Not Right with the Altgens photo. JFK Assassination Photos & Films which are engulfed by Un-Explainable/Contrasting/or Missing Images are in abundance throughout this case.
Attempting to get ALL the JFK Assassination Images to match-up is futile. Doing so results in Chasing Your Tail which is a Mission Accomplished by those responsible for the image alteration we continue to see. There are JFK Assassination Images which are legit, and some are Bogus.
...corroborate the Current Z Film NOT depicting reality on 11/22/63.
Even though you inadvertently have supplied further Proof of the Current Z Film being Bogus,
The Blackest Hole in the Z Film, (and there are many),
The Lead Runner is visible on the Z Film for only scant seconds. This Lead Runner is Not visible on Any other JFK Assassination Film or Any other JFK Assassination Image period. This gent would have been in front of the man we see on the Bell Film running toward Houston St.
Possible "removed frames" does Not explain NO ONE at Parkland Hospital seeing the Massive Hole/Flap in the (R) Temple area. The ONLY Explanation for Not 1 Single Dr or 1 Single Nurse seeing the Massive Wound and/or blood trickling from it onto the hair of JFK is that the Wound DID NOT EXIST!
The Z Film is Not a portrait of Officer Chaney. It captured peripheral images vs that which researchers over the last 54+ years have foolishly & repeatedly Focused on.
My thought is the CIA had prepared a Z Film alteration
Ah yes, another member of the Dennis Hopper aka "Shooter" club staggers into the discussion. Waving his arms, and incoherently raging because The Science they claimed proved a LN was responsible for the assassination of JFK, has suddenly turned around and bit them in the arse. As The Science continues PROVING CONSPIRACY, comfort yourself in knowing that, "The TRUTH will set you free". LN's have been duped for 60 yrs. That's tough to accept, but for the sake of you and those around you, you need to stop the arm waving, curb your rage, and actually research Knott Lab Laser 360 Technology and how the US Justice System routinely uses this SCIENCE.
Ironically if Knott Labs SBF work ever got to a court, I'd use Royell Storing's very own words to discredit it! High five!
JohnM
You LN's are so stunned, you Fail to understand that Knott Labs was SOLELY FOCUSED on the SBT/Magic Bullet Trajectory and that this was ONLY STEP 1. Pull yourself together and actually research what Science is still revealing. You have been "played" for 60 yrs running.
Note: I have no idea why that “spombi....ous” like word got into my post just now 😳The posting automatically writes spombleprofglidnoctobuns when if u try to write the word spombleprofglidnoctobuns.
Ok I’m not really sure how accurately their computer model orientation of Connalys shoulder angle matches what my eyeballs are seeing in the Z film at Z223-225 so I’m not going to be an absolutist just yet.
But if it’s not the Z223 bullet that went they Connalys wrist BEFORE he raised his right got hand griping the hat still upside down , then WHEN does a spombleprofglidnoctobuns hit his wrist and yet not splatter any blood on the hat?
Wouldn't the shirt and jacket contain the majority of the blood splatter from the chest exit? The exit wound on the wrist was not large; it had to be surgically enlarged to be cleaned. The Stetson didn't pick up much blood from the blood splatter of Kennedy's head wound. I guess the hat was just in areas that received little splatter.The exit wound was a slit, by Gregory's account. That's not uncommon for low energy projectiles.
Wouldn't the shirt and jacket contain the majority of the blood splatter from the chest exit? The exit wound on the wrist was not large; it had to be surgically enlarged to be cleaned. The Stetson didn't pick up much blood from the blood splatter of Kennedy's head wound. I guess the hat was just in areas that received little splatter.
The above is exactly why nobody should rely on Armchair Researchers. They routinely "GUESS". The Knott Labs Laser 360 Technology = SCIENCE. SBT = "IMPOSSIBLE"
More zingers. You think there's no guesswork in the Knott Laboratory study's subjectively-placed elements? Where have you addressed the concerns raised here about the Knott study/
There's a margin-of-error in any trajectory study. Somehow the critics think that LN-produced models and trajectory have to match on the molecular-level. That gives them their "out" to reject anything SBT-related. It's a cult.
More zingers. You think there's no guesswork in the Knott Laboratory study's subjectively-placed elements? Where have you addressed the concerns raised here about the Knott study/
There's a margin-of-error in any trajectory study. Somehow the critics think that LN-produced models and trajectory have to match on the molecular-level. That gives them their "out" to reject anything SBT-related. It's a cult.
Thomas Canning and old school math is infinitely better. A survey transit and basic trigonometry with explanations of all the assumptions and measurements is easily followed and understood.The WC used this method and created the sham.
Maybe give them an attaboy for effort but it looks to be little better than a circus trick. Thomas Canning and old school math is infinitely better. A survey transit and basic trigonometry with explanations of all the assumptions and measurements is easily followed and understood. This 3D model looks to be anybody’s guess and in conclusion here is the end result. Nothing more than one more individual trying to prove it is a conspiracy using faulty logic and poor reasoning.
"Circus trick"? Really? Knott Labs Laser 360 is routinely used in courtrooms across this entire country. You've obviously been knocked cattywampus by SCIENCE determining that the "SBT IS IMPOSSIBLE". Now, this same SCIENCE is being used to locate other shooting location(s).
The WC used this method and created the sham.
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Seems easy enough to understand. Is thge problem that you do not think a jacketed bullet can pass through soft flesh and strike something or someone further down range?.
When do you show us the Woody Woodpecker cartoon?
You guys have been so spoiled by having a THEORY rubber stamped as fact for 60 years, that you Now have no regard what-so-ever when SCIENCE reveals the Truth. And SCIENCE determining that the SBT is IMPOSSIBLE, is only the Knott Lab opening act. Plus, RFK Jr is now piling on and naming names. You LN's that NOW refuse to accept the SCIENCE are in for a very long rough ride.
You do understand the 3D model is interesting but in the end it is just a cartoon.
That is certainly YOUR understanding. Limited, which explains your acceptance of the SBT. Have you seen that photo of the mock JFK Limo back seat with a couple of guys sitting there as stand-ins for JFK/Connally, and Specter holding a Pointer to replicate the trajectory of the SBT as it traveled through both men? Now, THIS is truly "cartoon" worthy. Yet, this is what you embrace. No SCIENCE there. NONE. Though it is definitely 3 Stooges worthy.
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Sorry to interrupt this verbal diarrhoea Royell, the Warren Commission never relied on the SBF. OopsGood of you to point out this, but the fact is that they offered no alternate explanation. In particular, they never discussed where the shot through JFK's neck went if it did not strike JBC in the back. [They also never thought to question the assumption that JBC had been hit by only one bullet.]
There is very persuasive evidence from the experts to indicate that the same bullet which pierced the President’s throat also caused Governor Connally’s wounds. However, Governor Connally’s testimony and certain other factors have given rise to some difference of opinion as to this probability, but there is no question in the mind of any member of the Commission that all the shots which caused the President’s and Governor Connally’s wounds were fired from the sixth-floor window of the Texas School Book Depository
JohnM
Sorry to interrupt this verbal diarrhoea Royell, the Warren Commission never relied on the SBF. OopsJohn: Yes, that's true but isn't it YOUR explanation? You believe in the SBT, right? And the generally accepted explanation by lone assassin believers today? It's certainly mine.
There is very persuasive evidence from the experts to indicate that the same bullet which pierced the President’s throat also caused Governor Connally’s wounds. However, Governor Connally’s testimony and certain other factors have given rise to some difference of opinion as to this probability, but there is no question in the mind of any member of the Commission that all the shots which caused the President’s and Governor Connally’s wounds were fired from the sixth-floor window of the Texas School Book Depository
JohnM
John: Yes, that's true but isn't it YOUR explanation? You believe in the SBT, right? And the generally accepted explanation by lone assassin believers today? It's certainly mine.The SBT has had a long evolution. And it still keeps changing. I have always accepted the WC conclusion that Oswald fired all the shots. But I disagree with the SBT. I disagree only because of the large bodies of consistent evidence that conflicts with it. The evidence shows that no missed shot and is consistent with the overwhelming evidence that all the shots came from Oswald's rifle.
I've read here that there are errors in the Knott Lab. 3D diagram. Has anyone here written to the them about that?