JFK Assassination Forum

Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on September 26, 2021, 01:33:38 AM

Title: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on September 26, 2021, 01:33:38 AM
I have been revisiting Mark Bell's footage of Dealey Plaza (i had looked at it in early 2021).
I find that what we see on youtube is mostly a copy of a copy (dark)(blurry).
The sprocket areas are usually missing. Central areas are sometimes cropped for no good reason.
The good quality snippets (& which usually include the sprockets), if u can find them (on youtube), have a lot of footage missing.

The original Bell footage is kept at the Sixth Floor Museum, but the Museum donít provide an on-line version (they usually provide small grainy blurry dark far-away nearly useless free versions with user non-friendly steering on-line).
And i think that they donít even include the Bell footage in their collection listing.
I think that the Bells have retained the rights.
But apparently the Museum do allow viewing (pencil & paper only).
Has anyone here had a good look?

Hence i donít know for sure what the length of Bell's overall footage is or isnít.
I donít know whether we can see Bell's full footage on youtube (albeit in bits n pieces of mainly krappy quality)?

Robin Unger's gallery has some nice sprockety frames of the grassy knoll bits of Bell's footage.
This includes the action tween the triple overpass & the railway carpark (which is what i needed)(it shows Hoffman's Falcon stopping).

But Robin's gallery hi quality frames of the action at the triple overpass have been cropped & dont show the action on top of the triple overpass, & dont include the sprocket area.
There are a couple of hi quality snippets of the action on top of the overpass.
There are 4 full frames showing the sprocket area & the action under & over, but these 4 frames are grainy & darkish, not hi quality, no good for magnification.
I had to get my own screenprints of available youtube footage, & some of these are grainy & darkish too, but some are very good.

Just saying. More later.

I am interested in Bell's footage koz it shows Officer Murphy's movements on the Stemmons Overpass. Bell shows him on the eastern side of Stemmons (while JFK passed under him where Elms St becomes the on-ramp to Stemmons), & then Bell shows him on the western side of Stemmons (watching the back of Queen Mary & the JFK limo disappear towards Stemmons).
And it shows Hoffman's northbound falcon coming to a stop on Stemmons just north of Murphy, while Murphy is at the western side of Stemmons, ie well after JFK & Queen Mary had already passed.
The exact pozzy of Bell during filming might help to time & place Murphy & Falcon more accurately, which might or might not be important.
By the time that Hoffman got out of his Falcon JFK was already on Stemmons.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on September 27, 2021, 05:45:11 AM
I reckon that Bell took footage from 3 locations, shown by the stars.
I triangulated various features in various frames.
1. Here Bell is on a pedestal at the North Peristyle (as seen in the photo). [edit][see reply #13][bell was actually on the eastern end of the pedestal wall]
2. Bell jumps down, & then climbs down onto the raised garden bed to (2).
Bell isnít seen at (2) in Bronson's photo or film koz Bell is late, or praps he is hidden by the peristyle.
I doubt that Bell's pozzy (2) was in the peristyle. I prefer that he was down in the garden.
3. Bell crosses to the south of Main St.
In the Daniel footage (Robin Unger gallery Daniel 47/180) we can briefly see someone who is too far south (right) to be Bell, & too near to be Bell, & too soon to be Bell.
And the area in the garden bed is very dark, possibly shaded by a tree, hence Bell could be there but not vizible.

Bell's footage has lots of stops/starts, & lots of blurred fast panning, & times when he changes lens.
And its all made more confusing koz i think that some youtubes have mixed up the sequences.

After Bell crosses to the south of Main St, (i think) we can see Bell in Underwood's footage (it has been said that it is not Darnell's footage) [edit 1Oct2021][James advises that the footage is probly Darnell] taken a long time after Bell has stopped filming at (3).
Bell is one of the 2 figures Ė i think he is the figure on the left, nearer Main St.
So, Bell hung around for a while.
Hmmmm -- i have changed my mind -- i think Bell is the figure on the right -- the figure on the left might be the big guy that was up on the pedestal with Bell at (1).

James Hackerott.
I was looking for a film clip taken from the top of the knoll four to five minutes after the assassination. Some researchers assign it to Darnell, but it was not in Darnell, or Couch either. I'm thinking it probably was filmed by Jim Underwood after he filmed and followed the crowd climbing the knoll steps.

[edit 1Oct2021][James advises that the footage is probly Darnell]

4. Later, Bell took some footage of Dealey Plaza from his workplace (an upper floor of the postal building south of Commerce St)(not shown here).

(https://i.postimg.cc/XJnqwKFR/a-Bell-s-locations.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/MGM8rKHH/a-Bell-on-pedestal-in-north-peristyle.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/yYDpYwqQ/daniel-view-of-peristyle-47-cropped.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGXg340R/google-daniel-view-of-peristyle.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/dQ8JY1BT/a-Bell-in-Underwood-south-of-main-st.jpg)
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on September 27, 2021, 10:55:15 PM
In this printscreen that i made of a youtube of the Bell footage
 we can see the top say 30 inches of Officer Murphy
(standing on the eastern side of the Stemmons overpass)(hi up on his 3-wheeler).
Our view of him is mostly blocked by the overhead signs.
The JFK limo will pass under him in about 10 sec as it enters the Stemmons on-ramp.
We know its Murphy koz that dark lump duznt appear in early frames, & is seen in later frames.
Murphy appears to be very high up. I am fairly certain that there aint any high curb for him to stand on.
I suspect that he heard the shooting & sirens & he stood high up on his 3-wheeler.

Murphy heard Oswald's shot-1 at 0.8 sec after Z113, then Oswald's shot-2 5.7 sec later at Z218, then Hickey's shots-123456 5.0 sec later at Z313.
It calculates to 5.2 sec but i had to deduct 0.2 sec koz of the diff in travel times for the sound of shots by Oswald who is further away than Hickey.
Murphy wasn't visible in Bell's footage when JFK's limo was half in shade entering the triple underpass at Z468.
And then Murphy was fully up & visible at Z470 when the limo was 3/4 in shade.
Z313 to Z468 is 55 frames ie 3.0 sec, hence Murphy reacted to the final shots in 2.5 sec (allowing 0.5 sec for the speed of sound).
Yes, Murphy didnt react to ”swald's shots, but Hickey's auto burst finally did the trick.

We can see say 2.5 ft of Murphy over the signage, & the signage is 61 yd away from him, which is 1/5th
of the distance to Bell (308 yd), hence that 2.5 ft gains him say 12.5 ft of extra vertical vision at Bell, but Bell is standing in the peristyle, or in the garden bed in front of the peristyle,
& that 12.5 ft has to be measured down from the level of Bell's camera.

(https://i.postimg.cc/DwSzMpTx/bell-Murphy.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bbpmj9q3/bell-Murphy.jpg)

Actually, Robin Unger's gallery of Bell's footage has 56/208 which shows Murphy high up over the signage.
In my other thread i show that one of Robin's frames shows that later Murphy moves to the western barrier after JFK & Co have passed.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HsmYrLFj/Bell-56of208.jpg)
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on September 28, 2021, 01:42:29 AM
A comparison of the height of Bell's camera in the Bell frames versus today's google street view i think suggests that Bell
was not standing in the peristyle, more likely he was standing lower, eg in the garden bed below the peristyle (ie having jumped down).
Standing in the garden, Bell's camera would have been level with the concrete barricade here (based on other photos that i saw),
which would be say 3 ft lower than when standing inside the barrier (not a lot of difference).

(https://i.postimg.cc/QC6bv8Fh/google-view-from-peristyle-closeup-2.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/dQ6fcvCb/google-view-from-peristyle-1.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Bbpmj9q3/bell-Murphy.jpg)


(https://i.postimg.cc/nc8Xp76c/aa-bell-14-hoffman-sitting-at-lookout.jpg)
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on September 30, 2021, 01:00:38 AM
Modern google street views.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tCsrP0T4/google-hoffmans-lookout-from-onramp.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/w38GWFfr/google-hoffmans-lookout-from-east.jpg)

Here is nearnuff Murphy's view of Bell (over the new road signs)(old signs would have been similar height) when standing on the back of his 3-wheeler.
Bell is standing in the garden bed in front of the peristyle, he aint in the peristyle.
Bell could see almost a half of Murphy, while Murphy was standing on the back of his 3-wheeler. Murphy would have seen all of Bell.
But Bell couldnt see any part of Murphy while Murphy was standing on the tarmac. And vice versa.
That there tree wasnt  there in 1963. But a tree in Elm St near the grassy knoll was there, & it blocked Bell's view of Hoffman's Lookout.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fWB6j190/google-murphy-sees-bell.jpg)
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: James Hackerott on October 01, 2021, 02:30:58 AM
I have been revisiting Mark Bell's footage of Dealey Plaza (i had looked at it in early 2021).

The original Bell footage is kept at the Sixth Floor Museum, but the Museum donít provide an on-line version (they usually provide small grainy blurry dark far-away nearly useless free versions with user non-friendly steering on-line).
And i think that they donít even include the Bell footage in their collection listing.
I think that the Bells have retained the rights.
But apparently the Museum do allow viewing (pencil & paper only).
Has anyone here had a good look?
I had very limited time to view the museumís Bell video, specifically looking for one detail in the intersprocket area (a request of former member.) I did make a mental note that the intersprocket images only penetrated about one half the width of the sprocket holes compared with Robin Ungerís frames Ė taken from the Lost Bullet-I think.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: James Hackerott on October 01, 2021, 02:35:42 AM

After Bell crosses to the south of Main St, (i think) we can see Bell in Underwood's footage (it has been said that it is not Darnell's footage) taken a long time after Bell has stopped filming at (3).
Bell is one of the 2 figures Ė i think he is the figure on the left, nearer Main St.
So, Bell hung around for a while.
Hmmmm -- i have changed my mind -- i think Bell is the figure on the right -- the figure on the left might be the big guy that was up on the pedestal with Bell at (1).

James Hackerott.
I was looking for a film clip taken from the top of the knoll four to five minutes after the assassination. Some researchers assign it to Darnell, but it was not in Darnell, or Couch either. I'm thinking it probably was filmed by Jim Underwood after he filmed and followed the crowd climbing the knoll steps.

Marjan, since that statement 20191112 Iíve come to realize that clip is indeed Darnellís and not from Underwood.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on October 01, 2021, 04:47:05 AM
I had very limited time to view the museumís Bell video, specifically looking for one detail in the intersprocket area (a request of former member.) I did make a mental note that the intersprocket images only penetrated about one half the width of the sprocket holes compared with Robin Ungerís frames Ė taken from the Lost Bullet-I think.
ThreeDFeatureGuy has the best footage of the action under & over the triple underpass, but some footage is missing.
I used that footage to find Murphy sitting up on his 3-wheeler.
And i used Robin's frames to find Murphy at the eastern barrier -- seen in 1 frame only -- lucky.
And i used Robin's frames to see the gawker sitting on the eastern barrier, about 21 yd from Hoffman's Lookout.
And i used ThreeDFeatureGuy to see Hoffman's Falcon early on -- & Robin's frames to see the Falcon later on.

I wonder whether someone has taken a hi quality scan of each of Bell's frames?
Its strange that the Museum's DVD has some of the sprocket area missing.
Murphy in Robin's frame is deep in the sprocket area -- lucky.

Anyhow, no matter how hi quality the frames, there would be no way of proving that the Falcon was Hoffman's.
Unless Hoffman had a pix of his Falcon in one of his books. In which case if the Falcon had white walls, &/or a 2-tone color scheme then it might prove.
My other thread shows a non-standard white-walled 2-tone Falcon.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2ygKq12H/1961-Falcon.jpg)
 https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2886.10.html

The Falcon in Bell's footage is i reckon Hoffman's. And koz Hoffman stopped short of the end of the queues of cars n trucks i reckon that he didnt know much about the 6 or so cops on duty under the railway overpass (koz his view was blocked by vans & trucks.
Hence that is why he says (in 1967) that he tried to get Officer Brown's attention -- he had seen Brown up on the overpass -- or praps Officer Brown was still on the railway overpass when Hoffman passed under him, but the others had already vamoosed -- or he simply read a report that said that Brown (& 1 other cop) was up there.

If Hoffman was parked just north of the railway (like he said), & if he drove away within minutes, then he would have had to walk past the 6 cops, & he would have seen & remembered them, & he would have included them in his silly made-up stories (june 1967)(march 1977).
One version of his story(s) is that he parked in the left breakdown lane, tween Hoffman's Lookout & the railway.
No, he parked/stopped in one of the 3 middle lanes (as seen in Bell's footage) -- well short of the blocked queues of cars n trucks.
And he didnt get going again for about 15 minutes, just like everyone else.
And in the meantime he had seen the commotion in the railway carpark.
And he had seen people near the western side of the TSBD.
But the only view he ever had of JFK & Hickey's AR15 was after they had passed & were a long way north near or past the railway.

He said that he drove around to the railway carparks, & drove around the carparks, looking for the tosser or tossee. I dont think so.
But he might have driven to near Dealey Plaza.
The traffic congestion around Dealey Plaza would have eased by the time he got there (say 20 minutes after the shots).
In my other thread there is a pix of a Falcon parked amongst the police cars in Elm St extension, in front of the TSBD.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zvQqRpRR/hoffman-falcon-at-elm-st.jpg)
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on October 01, 2021, 04:49:53 AM
Marjan, since that statement 20191112 Iíve come to realize that clip is indeed Darnellís and not from Underwood.
Ok good. I will fix my earlier post/comment/reply.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on October 02, 2021, 05:05:11 AM
Here is a google street view of Hoffman's view of the triple underpass from the center lane of Stemmons.
The google camera here is say 7 ft above the tarmac, whereas Hoffman's eye (when he was driving his Falcon) would have been only say 3 ft 10 inches above the tarmac.
On the other hand, the Falcon might have been in the right-hand lane (ie next to the right-hand breakdown lane),
which would have enjoyed a better view than the view from the center lane.
And in Bell's footage we can see a car passing the Falcon, & that car is on the other side of the Falcon, ie it is in the left-hand lane or it is in the middle lane.
Hence the Falcon is in the center lane lane or in the right-hand lane. I think the right-hand lane.

I had to use the google view from a long way south of where i wanted.  I wanted the view from where Hoffman was when the JFK limo first exited the underpass.
This would have been when Hoffman's Falcon was directly over Main St. But the new on-ramp blocks that view.

When JFK first exited the darkness of the underpass, ie into the sunshine, Hoffman would i reckon have been able to see the limo,
at least until the limo quickly disappeared below the eastern concrete barrier of Stemmons.
Hoffman's passenger would have had a better view than Hoffman.

In Bell's footage we see that the passenger has sprung out before the Falcon has come to a complete stop.
Hence we can safely say that the passenger saw the limo, & the flashing lights, & heard the sirens.
So, the passenger won't have known about the shots, but he could see that something was cooking.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7hLxcGqP/google-hoffmans-view-of-triple-underpass-cropped.jpg)   

(https://i.postimg.cc/yxrVz1Nm/google-hoffmans-view-of-triple-underpass-cropped.jpg)
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on October 02, 2021, 08:20:29 AM
I saw a youtube yesterday where Groden said that the lamp poles on the northern side of Elm St had been shifted off the footpath for safety reasons.
This could be a trap if unknowingly mixing old & new photos etc for triangulating a location.

(https://i.postimg.cc/br39tXKJ/lamp-poles-on-knoll.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Kz7Nm3ft/lamp-poles-on-knoll-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on October 03, 2021, 02:13:56 AM
Here is a giff i found on this forum -- i forget where, & who.
It shows Hoffman's Falcon in a Bell early sequence.
I could make a giff of Hoffman's Falcon stopping in Bell's much later sequence, but there are only about 4 frames, mostly blurry, not worth it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hjKZ4b57/bell-giff-falcon.gif)
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Andrew Mason on October 28, 2021, 10:46:32 PM
I reckon that Bell took footage from 3 locations, shown by the stars.
I triangulated various features in various frames.
1. Here Bell is on a pedestal at the North Peristyle (as seen in the photo).
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGM8rKHH/a-Bell-on-pedestal-in-north-peristyle.jpg)

Your position no. 1 is slightly incorrect.  Bell was standing on the pedestal just east of the North Peristyle marked here with the small circle (although I think you have it a bit too far east):

(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Bell_initial_position.JPG)

This position allowed him to see across Elm to the front doors of the TSBD, as seen in the first part of his film (last clear frame before he stops filiming and changes position):

(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Last_frame_rear_wheel_half_car_length_before_z133.JPG)

The pedestal is seen here on Street View (Google Maps) of Dealey Plaza. (https://www.google.ca/maps/@32.778814,-96.8080489,3a,75y,338.45h,88.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suSFvzjFd52sngL8f1En1JQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0)
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on October 30, 2021, 09:12:02 PM
Your position no. 1 is slightly incorrect.  Bell was standing on the pedestal just east of the North Peristyle marked here with the small circle (although I think you have it a bit too far east):

(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Bell_initial_position.JPG)

This position allowed him to see across Elm to the front doors of the TSBD, as seen in the first part of his film (last clear frame before he stops filiming and changes position):

(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Last_frame_rear_wheel_half_car_length_before_z133.JPG)

The pedestal is seen here on Street View (Google Maps) of Dealey Plaza. (https://www.google.ca/maps/@32.778814,-96.8080489,3a,75y,338.45h,88.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suSFvzjFd52sngL8f1En1JQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0)

Yes u are correct. Triangulation shows that Bell was on the eastern part of the pedestal wall.
Hmmm -- so, he could easily get to pozzy 2 (or a bit west of 2) by jumping down & going south then west then north, rather than jumping down & going west to the barrier & then jumping over the barrier & down onto the garden bed.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3Rg8b7DP/plan-of-dealey-bell-pozzies.jpg)
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Andrew Mason on November 01, 2021, 04:05:40 PM
Yes u are correct. Triangulation shows that Bell was on the eastern part of the pedestal wall.
Hmmm -- so, he could easily get to pozzy 2 (or a bit west of 2) by jumping down & going south then west then north, rather than jumping down & going west to the barrier & then jumping over the barrier & down onto the garden bed.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3Rg8b7DP/plan-of-dealey-bell-pozzies.jpg)
Bell told Richard Trask (Pictures of the Pain, p. 264) that his view of the President's car was blocked by a tree so, he said, "I jumped down from the thing that I was on and ran around to the end of it so that I could get a better picture. That's when the shots were fired, when I was down. Probably not more than 5 to 10 seconds."  Trask writes (p. 267): "Just after the shots had been fired and upon reaching the end of the peristyle, Bell immediately began filming."

I put the position of the President's car in the last frame of Bell's film before he moves off the pedestal to be about half a car length (10 zframes) before the position of the car seen in Zapruder's frame 133. The position of the car when he resumes filming is about frame z435.  The time between those positions is about 312 zframes or about 17 seconds.  It is not clear whether Bell was estimating the time he was down between film segments or the duration of the shots. 
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 02, 2021, 07:33:05 AM
Bell told Richard Trask (Pictures of the Pain, p. 264) that his view of the President's car was blocked by a tree so, he said, "I jumped down from the thing that I was on and ran around to the end of it so that I could get a better picture. That's when the shots were fired, when I was down. Probably not more than 5 to 10 seconds."  Trask writes (p. 267): "Just after the shots had been fired and upon reaching the end of the peristyle, Bell immediately began filming."

I put the position of the President's car in the last frame of Bell's film before he moves off the pedestal to be about half a car length (10 zframes) before the position of the car seen in Zapruder's frame 133. The position of the car when he resumes filming is about frame z435.  The time between those positions is about 312 zframes or about 17 seconds.  It is not clear whether Bell was estimating the time he was down between film segments or the duration of the shots.
I reckon that Bell's last frame was at Z095 to Z103, based on the vizible rear of the JFK limo in that frame being just past the wall of the pool.
As can be seen in my drawing the JFK limo in Bell's last frame is a half length short of where it was at Oswald's first shot at Z113 Ė Oswald shot when JFK was in line with the overhead signal arm (viewed from Oswald's window).
If the limo takes say 10 Z-frames to go a half  limo length then that makes it Z103.
And at Z113 the limo was one limo length short of where it was at Z133 (based on a limo speed of 20 ft in 20 frames).
But if the limo was going slower, then Oswald's shot-1 might have been at say Z110, & the JFK limo at Bell's last frame of that sequence might have been at say Z095.
So, i reckon that the JFK limo at Bell's last frame is 1.5 limo lengths short of Z133. U reckon 0.5 L short.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HLfrHTDb/plan-of-dealey-jfk-limo-bell-s-last-frame.jpg)
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Andrew Mason on November 02, 2021, 08:28:36 PM
I reckon that Bell's last frame was at Z095 to Z103, based on the vizible rear of the JFK limo in that frame being just past the wall of the pool.
As can be seen in my drawing the JFK limo in Bell's last frame is a half length short of where it was at Oswald's first shot at Z113 Ė Oswald shot when JFK was in line with the overhead signal arm (viewed from Oswald's window).
If the limo takes say 10 Z-frames to go a half  limo length then that makes it Z103.
And at Z113 the limo was one limo length short of where it was at Z133 (based on a limo speed of 20 ft in 20 frames).
But if the limo was going slower, then Oswald's shot-1 might have been at say Z110, & the JFK limo at Bell's last frame of that sequence might have been at say Z095.
So, i reckon that the JFK limo at Bell's last frame is 1.5 limo lengths short of Z133. U reckon 0.5 L short.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HLfrHTDb/plan-of-dealey-jfk-limo-bell-s-last-frame.jpg)

You first have to get the position of the car at z133 correct.  Roberdeau's map, I think, is pretty close.  You can determine the position of the limo in relation to the left painted lane stripe.  It is about a third of the way along that second land stripe at z133 and the front of the car is well short of the cement-grass border where Croft is standing.  On Roberdeau's map, that is the position of the green rectangle representing the limo at z133:

(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Roberdeau_z133_Bell_z123.JPG)

The red rectangle represents the position of the car with the sightline from Bell to the left rear wheel of the limo.  That looks like about a half-car-length different (between red and green) to me. A half car length is about 10 feet or 10 frames.

Your problem, however, is that Bell said that all three shots occurred in the 17 seconds between that last frame of the early Elm St. section and the first frame when he resumed filming.  But Bell is not alone in that.  Towner, Croft, Betzner, Altgens and Willis all put the first shot much later than Holland's theory.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 02, 2021, 11:25:18 PM
You first have to get the position of the car at z133 correct.  Roberdeau's map, I think, is pretty close.  You can determine the position of the limo in relation to the left painted lane stripe.  It is about a third of the way along that second land stripe at z133 and the front of the car is well short of the cement-grass border where Croft is standing.  On Roberdeau's map, that is the position of the green rectangle representing the limo at z133:

(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Roberdeau_z133_Bell_z123.JPG)

The red rectangle represents the position of the car with the sightline from Bell to the left rear wheel of the limo.  That looks like about a half-car-length different (between red and green) to me. A half car length is about 10 feet or 10 frames.

Your problem, however, is that Bell said that all three shots occurred in the 17 seconds between that last frame of the early Elm St. section and the first frame when he resumed filming.  But Bell is not alone in that.  Towner, Croft, Betzner, Altgens and Willis all put the first shot much later than Holland's theory.
Yes, i dont recall ever doing a very accurate analysis of the exact pozzy of thejfklimo at Z133, hence my blue rectangle is based on the work of others.
But i would be surprized if it was as much as 0.5 L out.
But i can guarantee that my Z113 red rectangle is ok to say 1 ft.
And my black Z103 rectangle is ok to say 1 ft.
When i say ok, i mean ok re pozzy of limo distance-wize, not frame-wize -- frame-wize needs much info re limo speed etc.
I just then had another look at youtube of Bell -- & re my black rectangle at Z103 i think i should have drawn it (the rear of the limo) a fraction of a foot to the east -- so i am puzzled why u think it should be further west.

It looks to me that the road-stripes are fairly accurately drawn.
In the red rectangle u can see that at Z113 Nellie Connally (sitting at mid limo) was level with the end of the white stripe on her left.
And this is the exact reference that i used (in about april 2021) for Oswald's shot-1 using Towner's frames.

So, Oswald's shot-1 at Z113 was 10 ft after Bell stopped filming, about 0.5 sec, so, Bell was in mid-air jumping down offa the pedestal, or, praps Bell's boots were impacting concrete.
Anyhow, Bell didnt hear shot-1.
And he didnt hear Oswald's shot-2 at about Z218.
And he didnt hear Hickey's auto burst starting at i reckon about Z299 & ending at we know Z313 (4 or 5 or 6 shots in say 15 frames).
But i am surprized at why Bell didnt start filming earlier -- u reckon that he took 17 sec (to scram around to his new pozzy, while winding his camera) -- but he had no real reason to hurry -- obviously he hadnt planned on trying to get more good footage of thejfklimo -- it was an afterthort.

Tina Towner said that the first shot was 2 sec after she stopped filming.
And she has said 4 sec after.
More recently she said that the shot was at about the same time -- just before or just after.
The first shot was at T137 (my own analysis).
And her last frame was T142.
The bullet hit the signal arm at T138.
The bang hit Tina's ears at T139.
Parts of Tina's brain heard the bang at T140.
They informed other parts of Tina's brain at T141.
Tina would have initiated a startle reaction at T142.
Tina's startle reaction would have jiggled her camera at T143.
But there was no T143. Her last frame was T142.

Re the Croft, Betzner, Altgens and Willis timings for shot-1 -- they were mistaken.
Reaction analysis by Roselle & Scearce indicates that shot-1 was fired at Z124 -- they were mistaken -- Oswald shot at Z111 (slug hit at Z112)(bang hit at Z113).
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 03, 2021, 06:32:42 AM
Ok i have triangulated thejfklimo at Z133, & it is almost exactly as per my original blue rectangle.
I used frame Z133, plus some of the earlier frames, to triangulate.
The front left corner of thejfklimo was in frame Z133 on an alignment 2.9 ft outside the kerbline of the southwest corner, & 1.5 ft west of the end of the painted stripe.
The blue rectangle might possibly need to be moved back say 1 ft east, or say 2 or 3 or 4 ft east if we agree that my blue rectangle is drawn too far away (north) of the painted stripe, but i find it difficult to agree with 10 ft east (thejfklimo would have to be hard up to the stripe).

Actually, moving thejfklimo back 10 ft at Z133 helps my theory.
Actually, early this year, i had adopted it back 10 ft at Z133, but later i adopted the blue rectangle.
By adopting it back 10 ft it places Oswald's shot-1 at say Z121 instead of my current Z111 (these are true trigger timings, not the sound of the bang)(the sound of the bang would be Z113).
And, Roselle & Scearce have nominated shot-1 as being at Z124 plus or minus (i think) 3 frames (true trigger timing)(not the sound of the bang).
So, my Z121 is at their acceptable limit.
So, no-one would be happier than me to find out that thejfklimo (at Z133) was 10 ft east of the blue rectangle.
But Roselle & Scearce were talking about voluntary reaction times, not startle reaction times, & voluntary reactions can vary by miles, so, i still favor that Oswald squeezed the trigger at close to Z111 rather than Z121.

But, pozzy wize, we now know where thejfklimo was to almost the inch -- it was when jfk's back was in line with the overhead signal arm.
And re the  left/right pozzy of thejfklimo, in the center lane, (we now know that) it was when jfk's back was a few inches north of the collar holding the 2 guy rods.
The slug hit the outside of the western guy rod, say a little less than 1 foot from the collar.
Small bits of lead show up in xrays on the back of jfk's head.
CE567 & CE569 are the 2 halves of the copper jacket (all copper jackets are made in 2 halves), that were found in the limo.
The remnant slug made a hole in the floor, tween Nellie & John, found when the limo was re-built in Dec 1963 (FBI letter).
And silly experts on this forum still argue whether the first shot was at Z160 or Z180 or somesuch.
And then Oswald's shot-2 was at about Z216, the magic bullet, which landed at about Z218 -- about 105 frames after shot-1 (5.7 sec).
And experts on this forum argue that it was at Z222 or Z224 or somesuch (however the exact timing here, ie landing at Z218 or Z224, is of almost zero importance).
The timing does have a minor interest re Connally's lapel flip at Z224.
And (we know that) Oswald had already stood up & back from the window when he saw Hickey kill jfk at Z313.
Surprizingly, (we know that) Oswald had already decided not to fire his last bullet before he had seen Hickey kill jfk.
How could Oswald be sure that his shot-2 was good???.
JFK didnt throw his arms up in the air & crash throo the rails & drop down onto a bar below.
JFK didnt stand up & grab hold of himself & topple backwards onto the tarmac.
Anyhow, as it happened, (we know that) standing up & back gave Oswald a second or two start for getting down to his meeting with Baker at the lunchroom.
Which took about 48 sec (to get to the 2nd floor)(but he didnt meet Baker untill say 80 sec).

Anyhow, Bell stopped filming when thejfklimo was 9 ft shy of where it was when Oswald squeezed the trigger.
And when thelimo had gone say another 1 ft (which brings it to 10 ft) the slug hit the signal arm.
Which equates to say 10 Zapruder frames, after Bell stopped filming.
And Betzner Altgens Willis Croft & Zapruder & Co didnt hear.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FFxX5H18/plan-of-dealey-jfk-limo-at-Z133.jpg)
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Andrew Mason on November 03, 2021, 10:36:28 PM

And silly experts on this forum still argue whether the first shot was at Z160 or Z180 or somesuch.

Mark me down as one of the "silly" ones who thinks you can only reach reliable conclusions if they are based on the evidence. Silly of me to question the phantom missing shot hitting the phantom traffic light pole without leaving a trace, and without a sound registering on any of the hundreds of people nearby.  I should just listen to Max Holland because it is such a neat theory.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 04, 2021, 02:03:41 AM
Mark me down as one of the "silly" ones who thinks you can only reach reliable conclusions if they are based on the evidence. Silly of me to question the phantom missing shot hitting the phantom traffic light pole without leaving a trace, and without a sound registering on any of the hundreds of people nearby.  I should just listen to Max Holland because it is such a neat theory.
There are 3 bits of physical evidence for a ricochet offa the signal arm.
(1) Bits of lead on back of jfk's head (xray).
(2) CE567 & CE569 in the limo.
(3) The hole in the floor of the limo.

(4) Then we have lots of (say 12) ear-witnesses who said that there was a bang just as thejfklimo straightened up or somesuch.

Re the 100s of people nearby, we have only heard from a small fraction of them.
Re your reliable witnesses, none of them heard the actual first shot, hence they said that the first shot was at about Z218-224, hence many of them said that there were only 2 shots, so we can easily dismiss them witnesses, they heard the 2nd shot & the flurry of Hickey's shots (which would have sounded like one shot to some).

I said we can dismiss them -- i take that back -- by saying that there were only 2 shots they are in fact confirming that there was an earlier shot (that they didnt hear), hence they support a shot being at Z113.

Holland is to be congratulated for pointing out that the first shot hit the signal arm.
But, he then reckons that the ricochet slug then hits the road, & that then CE567 & CE569 (the copper jackets) bounce up into the limo.
Or, i forget which, he reckons that the ricochet slug ends up causing the wounding of Tague (on the left cheek). Or was it Donohue that said that?
Anyhow, neither of these are possible.
But, Holland & Donahue & Menninger & McLaren are my heroes nonetheless.

And, then, li'l ol' me comes along & explains everything, in about 4 months of brilliant detective work.
Shucks -- i must be a genius.
 
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Andrew Mason on November 04, 2021, 03:28:01 PM
There are 3 bits of physical evidence for a ricochet offa the signal arm.
(1) Bits of lead on back of jfk's head (xray).
If there were bits of lead on the back of JFK's head, isn't it more likely to be the result of the bullet that struck him in the head?  The impact of the bullet on the skull will have caused the copper jacket to deform pushing lead out the back of the bullet.  From 6:16 this video shows an open-ended jacketed bullet hitting something hard:

Quote
(2) CE567 & CE569 in the limo.
(3) The hole in the floor of the limo.
Are you serious? CE567 and CE569 are much more likely to be from a bullet or bullets that impacted in the car.  As far as there being a hole in the floor from a bullet, perhaps you could show us the evidence.  Are you suggesting it was made by CE567/9? 


Quote
(4) Then we have lots of (say 12) ear-witnesses who said that there was a bang just as thejfklimo straightened up or somesuch.

Re the 100s of people nearby, we have only heard from a small fraction of them.
Re your reliable witnesses, none of them heard the actual first shot, hence they said that the first shot was at about Z218-224,
Now you are just making stuff up.  That is absurd. The motorcade witnesses, dozens of witnesses along Elm put the first shot much later and they all heard 3 shots.  At least 22 witnesses said JFK reacted to the first shot. 
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 04, 2021, 10:59:25 PM
If there were bits of lead on the back of JFK's head, isn't it more likely to be the result of the bullet that struck him in the head?  The impact of the bullet on the skull will have caused the copper jacket to deform pushing lead out the back of the bullet.  From 6:16 this video shows an open-ended jacketed bullet hitting something hard:
It aint "if", there are bits of lead on the back of JFK's head.
There is no way that these bits of lead could have come from a clean slug hitting JFK's head.
Tests would show. Even a hollow-point would not do it.
That there slo-mo footage of i think a hollow-point at 6:19 of the 9:13 is impressive, the slug disintegrates throo 360deg, whereas the ordinary slugs didnít disintegrate so easily, some going clean throo the steel plate or whatever.

The footage supports my theory that Hickey's 2nd last shot at say Z310 put the dent in the chrome trim above the mirror.
The hard & loose stainless steel of the trim over the steel rectangular tube of the frame was enuff to stop Hickey's hollow-point slug from his AR15, even at 3,100 ft/s.
A month ago on this forum an ex-service guy said  that an AR15 would put a hole in the chrome trim.
But he of course had no experience with hollow-points (even tho he averages over 20,000 shots per year).
And, he had no experience with chrome trim.
And, i doubt that he ever saw that there footage.


Quote
Are you serious? CE567 and CE569 are much more likely to be from a bullet or bullets that impacted in the car.  As far as there being a hole in the floor from a bullet, perhaps you could show us the evidence.  Are you suggesting it was made by CE567/9? 

The hole was made by Oswald's first shot sometime tween Z124 & Z104.
This ricocheted offa the signal arm (offa the western guyrod).
The remnant slug made the hole.
CE567 & 569 landed in the limo without doing any damage.
I mentioned the hole, & the FBI letter, in my thread Ė
Did Oswald's first shot put a hole in the floor of JFK's limo?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2853.msg108235.html#msg108235

1961 Lincoln Continental Presidential Limousine, Steel Plate Floor Added during "Quick Fix," 1964. After President John F. Kennedy's assassination on November 22, 1963, the Hess & Eisenhardt Company of Cincinnati, Ohio, rebuilt the 1961 Lincoln Continental Presidential Limousine into an armored car. The floor was reinforced with 1/8-inch thick steel plate to protect against blasts from grenades or mines. Other portions of the car were armored with 3/8-inch thick titanium plate.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3wq00mCx/jfk-limo-bullet-hole-in-floor.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8nNcsPp/extra-steel-dec-1963.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dShkKXnwGa3RAtNAL2aZM1csdGmxQD_ruJ8ogot8G4aoWfe6HtZ-uU_oH2Ei4RgNKbl9us1FnuVSRATgFRl2MdPz1OBiB7TUBry68pF-VkCZor5HACzgJzzd-xlmG6E495TuI_Vp3yfbj4Kp8bvoVy=w735-h1007-no?authuser=0)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fRVi5fzFS2WhE2O0uk5M_ixmSLLIIfZNRuDe832qDeGX_0mW-aaWlHeKYHaAQ-ALui7sKiV6PQO2ozDDPiPx10gERzfopE-BXU41byLdTKMRXeW8aTJoKq2sJdOWyc-Gs-TfZjSWBMkcEHtnvdrBne=w735-h1007-no?authuser=0)

Quote
Now you are just making stuff up.  That is absurd. The motorcade witnesses, dozens of witnesses along Elm put the first shot much later and they all heard 3 shots.  At least 22 witnesses said JFK reacted to the first shot.
Allow me to introduce a witness, Kellerman.
Kellerman said that at the first shot JFK said my god i have been hit.
Yes, he had been bit by small bits of lead, on the back of his head.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Andrew Mason on November 25, 2021, 12:10:19 AM

The hole was made by Oswald's first shot sometime tween Z124 & Z104.
This ricocheted offa the signal arm (offa the western guyrod).
The remnant slug made the hole.
CE567 & 569 landed in the limo without doing any damage.
I mentioned the hole, & the FBI letter, in my thread Ė
Did Oswald's first shot put a hole in the floor of JFK's limo?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2853.msg108235.html#msg108235

The document that you cited specifically says that no hole was found in the limo floor.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 25, 2021, 03:48:38 AM
The document that you cited specifically says that no hole was found in the limo floor.
Yes, the SS did not see a hole, & the FBI did not see a hole, in November.
But Detroit/Cincinnati saw a hole in December, after removing the carpet etc.
Then in 1964 the FBI did not look for a hole (they merely asked the SS about the hole)(& the SS said there was no hole).
And we can say that the SS either did not look for a hole, or, if the SS did look & find a hole, they kept the hole a secret (& denied its existence).
I could not find a copy of that Dec 63 magazine or article. Did it include a pix of the hole.
The hole is probly still there -- under the new plating -- at the Ford museum -- if anyone cares to look.
U would need to raise the limo -- & look up around the driveshaft -- the hole is on the centerline -- the driveshaft might have a ding too.
I guess that the President's Commission (ie the WC) did not pursue this reported hole.
I am not sure at what date the WC & Co decided that Oswald's first shot missed -- at which time the hole would of course have been welcome -- but producing the hole at that late date would have risked the uncovering of their history of lieing -- no, not worth it.
And, for some reason, Robin Unger refuses to show the pix of the hole, & a pix of the FBI internal memo, in his photo gallery.
Even tho the hole does not contradict his favorit theory that Oswald fired 3 shots including the fatal headshot.
The hole is not nice & round -- hence it confirms the ricochet offa the (western guyrod of the) signal arm.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Andrew Mason on November 25, 2021, 04:56:25 PM
Yes, the SS did not see a hole, & the FBI did not see a hole, in November.
But Detroit/Cincinnati saw a hole in December, after removing the carpet etc.
It is odd that there would be a hole in the floor but not in the carpet.  So is your theory that someone shot him from below? 
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 25, 2021, 09:21:47 PM
It is odd that there would be a hole in the floor but not in the carpet.  So is your theory that someone shot him from below?
Yes -- i had forgotten about that -- the old carpet will hav a hole -- but i suppose that the bloodstained carpet was burnt or went into the rubbish dump on or about 23 Nov 63.
I dont know whether carpet tween the jump seats (which is where the hole is/was) was a separate piece to the bloody carpet at the back seat.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Andrew Mason on November 25, 2021, 10:30:25 PM
Yes -- i had forgotten about that -- the old carpet will hav a hole -- but i suppose that the bloodstained carpet was burnt or went into the rubbish dump on or about 23 Nov 63.
I dont know whether carpet tween the jump seats (which is where the hole is/was) was a separate piece to the bloody carpet at the back seat.
Here is a photo taken in the White House garage on the evening of Nov 22/63:

(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/fbiblky2.jpg)

It shows two separate pieces of carpet.  Do you really think that the agents who pored over the car would have missed a bullet hole in the floor?
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 26, 2021, 12:06:15 AM
Here is a photo taken in the White House garage on the evening of Nov 22/63:
It shows two separate pieces of carpet.  Do you really think that the agents who pored over the car would have missed a bullet hole in the floor?
Do u really think that the boss-agent who got a report from the agents who saw a bullet hole in the floor would have gone running to the police & reporters & (gasping for oxygen), would have blurted ---
"there's a gasp gasp bullet hole in the gasp gasp floor".

This is the same boss-agent who told Hickey to keep the 6 hot AR15 casings in his pocket (they could smell the casings at the hozzie)(plus they could smell the AR15 at the hozzie).
This is the same boss-agent who told his agents to keep quiet re shot-1 being at the signals at Z113 (a very early shot makes the SS look even worse).
And re Hickey's accidental auto burst of say 6 shots (Powers did not ever deny that he heard the deafening AR15 shots just inches from his left earhole).
And re the big dent in the chrome trim above the mirror (in fact the boss-agent said that the dent was already there from an accident many moons before).
And (at first) re the cracked windshield & the bits of lead on the glass at the center of the cracks.
This is the same boss-agent who snatched Jfk's body -- & jfk's brain -- & jfk photos -- but somehow wasnt concerned about anyone finding out about the hole in the limo floor.

Whatshisname from Ford, who replaced the carpet, would have seen the hole in the carpet & the hole in the floor.
And, he would ordinarily have kept the bloody carpet for his own private collection.
But, he did not keep the carpet (koz he woz not allowed) -- which suggests that there was indeed a hole.
And, the replacing of the carpet, rather than simply cleaning it (either in-situ or ex-situ), suggests a hole.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Andrew Mason on November 26, 2021, 05:19:19 PM
Do u really think that the boss-agent who got a report from the agents who saw a bullet hole in the floor would have gone running to the police & reporters & (gasping for oxygen), would have blurted ---
"there's a gasp gasp bullet hole in the gasp gasp floor".

This is the same boss-agent who told Hickey to keep the 6 hot AR15 casings in his pocket (they could smell the casings at the hozzie)(plus they could smell the AR15 at the hozzie).
This is the same boss-agent who told his agents to keep quiet re shot-1 being at the signals at Z113 (a very early shot makes the SS look even worse).
And re Hickey's accidental auto burst of say 6 shots (Powers did not ever deny that he heard the deafening AR15 shots just inches from his left earhole).
And re the big dent in the chrome trim above the mirror (in fact the boss-agent said that the dent was already there from an accident many moons before).
And (at first) re the cracked windshield & the bits of lead on the glass at the center of the cracks.
This is the same boss-agent who snatched Jfk's body -- & jfk's brain -- & jfk photos -- but somehow wasnt concerned about anyone finding out about the hole in the limo floor.

Whatshisname from Ford, who replaced the carpet, would have seen the hole in the carpet & the hole in the floor.
And, he would ordinarily have kept the bloody carpet for his own private collection.
But, he did not keep the carpet (koz he woz not allowed) -- which suggests that there was indeed a hole.
And, the replacing of the carpet, rather than simply cleaning it (either in-situ or ex-situ), suggests a hole.
I see.  Sorry, I thought we were discussing evidence.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 26, 2021, 09:41:24 PM
I see.  Sorry, I thought we were discussing evidence.
The absence of evidence is evidence.
The absence of the carpet supports my theory that there was a hole in the carpet.
As it turns out, years later, there was no need to get rid of the carpet, koz by then the FBI & Co were happy to admit that Oswald's first shot missed jfk, & a hole in the carpet & the floorpan did not spoil their lies.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Andrew Mason on November 26, 2021, 11:21:01 PM
The absence of evidence is evidence.
Where did you get that idea? Let's see where that takes us.  You have no evidence that I am not Superman. Does that mean I can fly?  There is no evidence of a hole in the carpet. Therefore, there was a hole in the carpet.

Quote
The absence of the carpet supports my theory that there was a hole in the carpet.
As it turns out, years later, there was no need to get rid of the carpet, koz by then the FBI & Co were happy to admit that Oswald's first shot missed jfk, & a hole in the carpet & the floorpan did not spoil their lies.
As I said, I thought we were discussing evidence.  I am not interested in discussing your conjecture and fantasy
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 27, 2021, 02:27:41 PM
Where did you get that idea? Let's see where that takes us.  You have no evidence that I am not Superman. Does that mean I can fly?  There is no evidence of a hole in the carpet. Therefore, there was a hole in the carpet.
As I said, I thought we were discussing evidence.  I am not interested in discussing your conjecture and fantasy
I came here to this forum for a holiday -- a holiday from being the worlds authority on some aspects of things Einsteinian.
And, in 6 months, i am now the worlds authority on things jfkian.
I am a genius. And, one aspect of being a genius is that when i look at the circumstances surrounding the limo carpet, i ask myself.............
why was the carpet removed.
why was the removal of the carpet kept secret.
why is the carpet missing.
In the meantime u & Co have probly contributed zero to the jfk saga.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 27, 2021, 10:20:45 PM
When i came here i was surprised at the unholy mess -- the blind leading the blind -- it was the day of the Triffids all over again.
This site has been taken over by CTers & LNers -- fools.
And along comes lil'ol'me -- & i give everyone the answer(s) on a plate.
Yes, the key is evidence -- but, there is too much evidence -- the mark of genius is both the finding of new evidence (which i have done)(i in a few months have found more evidence than everyone else combined) -- plus, genius is needed to weed out the krapp evidence (ie 99.9% is krapp).
Donahue in Mortal Error says that Oswald did not fire his last remaining 3rd bullet koz his Carcano jammed -- me, myself, a genius, could see that Oswald decided not to shoot -- & i could see that he decided immediately after he fired the magic bullet at Z218 -- Oswald saw Hickey kill jfk at Z297 to Z313 -- but that is not why Oswald decided not to shoot his last bullet -- by Z313 Oswald had already stood well back away from the window -- the evidence tells me that -- and yes later he knew he was a patsy.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Andrew Mason on November 29, 2021, 04:21:03 PM

Yes, the key is evidence -- but, there is too much evidence -- the mark of genius is both the finding of new evidence (which i have done)(i in a few months have found more evidence than everyone else combined) -- plus, genius is needed to weed out the krapp evidence (ie 99.9% is krapp).
Donahue in Mortal Error says that Oswald did not fire his last remaining 3rd bullet koz his Carcano jammed -- me, myself, a genius, could see that Oswald decided not to shoot -- & i could see that he decided immediately after he fired the magic bullet at Z218 -- Oswald saw Hickey kill jfk at Z297 to Z313 -- but that is not why Oswald decided not to shoot his last bullet -- by Z313 Oswald had already stood well back away from the window -- the evidence tells me that -- and yes later he knew he was a patsy.
If you get rid of 99% of the evidence you should be able to come up with a more interesting and more believable theory than having a Secret Service agent kill the President!
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 29, 2021, 05:22:11 PM
If you get rid of 99% of the evidence you should be able to come up with a more interesting and more believable theory than having a Secret Service agent kill the President!
I very much enjoyed finding Rackley in Hughes' footage.
And Hoffman's falcon in Bell's footage.
And Patrolman Murphy in Bell's footage (i could deduce from Bell's footage that Murphy had a 3-wheeler)(genius).
Finding Kinney's severe head turn in the last Nix frame, at about Z320, was delicious (it helped prove Hickey fired).
But, my Hickey stuff only built on the good work of Holland Donahue Meninger & McLaren (not so much Holland, he was a LNer i think)(but he explained Oswald's shot-1 being a ricochet).
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Andrew Mason on November 29, 2021, 07:23:54 PM
I very much enjoyed finding Rackley in Hughes' footage.
And Hoffman's falcon in Bell's footage.
And Patrolman Murphy in Bell's footage (i could deduce from Bell's footage that Murphy had a 3-wheeler)(genius).
I would have thought a genius would have just read Patrolman Murphy's testimony to the WC (6H256):
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You are a patrolman, are you?
Mr. MURPHY. Thatís right.
Mr. BALL. Do you have a three-wheeler?
Mr. MURPHY. A three-wheeler-yes.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 29, 2021, 09:16:22 PM
I would have thought a genius would have just read Patrolman Murphy's testimony to the WC (6H256):
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You are a patrolman, are you?
Mr. MURPHY. Thatís right.
Mr. BALL. Do you have a three-wheeler?
Mr. MURPHY. A three-wheeler-yes.
That would have been too easy. I did it the hard way. I calculated the geometry, using an estimate of the height that Murphy pops up over the roadsign blocking his view of Bell & Bell's view of Murphy, & an estimate of the distance from Murphy to the sign & to Bell, & this calculated height equaled the height of the boot of a 3-wheeler -- genius.
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Sim Heninger on December 04, 2021, 02:05:56 PM
Quote
But a tree in Elm St near the grassy knoll was there, & it blocked Bell's view of Hoffman's Lookout.


Marjan, if by "Hoffman's Lookout" you mean where he stopped his car and got out to see what was going on in Dealey Plaza, then there's no way of knowing whether the car you've identified as his Falcon actually stopped.  Yet you imply that the Bell film shows this car stopping.  There is a car going slower than the rest of the traffic...something I've seen every time I've ever driven on a freeway.  What supporting evidence can you give me that this car stopped? I'll give you this, it seems to be the right size and shape for a Falcon.

Sim
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on December 04, 2021, 06:37:16 PM
Marjan, if by "Hoffman's Lookout" you mean where he stopped his car and got out to see what was going on in Dealey Plaza, then there's no way of knowing whether the car you've identified as his Falcon actually stopped.  Yet you imply that the Bell film shows this car stopping.  There is a car going slower than the rest of the traffic...something I've seen every time I've ever driven on a freeway.  What supporting evidence can you give me that this car stopped? I'll give you this, it seems to be the right size and shape for a Falcon.
Sim
We dont see the Falcon come to a complete stop. But we do see a big guy get out of the passenger's door & stand up while it is still moving.
One thing for almost sure -- the guy sitting on the barricade say 20 yd from Hoffman's Lookout is Hoffman -- or the guy driving the Falcon is Hoffman.
If i had Hoffman's book, & if the book had a photo of his Falcon, then i would be in a stronger position.
(see my Hoffman thread).
Title: Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on December 04, 2021, 06:56:39 PM
Do u really think that the boss-agent who got a report from the agents who saw a bullet hole in the floor would have gone running to the police & reporters & (gasping for oxygen), would have blurted ---
"there's a gasp gasp bullet hole in the gasp gasp floor".

This is the same boss-agent who told Hickey to keep the 6 hot AR15 casings in his pocket (they could smell the casings at the hozzie)(plus they could smell the AR15 at the hozzie).
This is the same boss-agent who told his agents to keep quiet re shot-1 being at the signals at Z113 (a very early shot makes the SS look even worse).
And re Hickey's accidental auto burst of say 6 shots (Powers did not ever deny that he heard the deafening AR15 shots just inches from his left earhole).
And re the big dent in the chrome trim above the mirror (in fact the boss-agent said that the dent was already there from an accident many moons before).
And (at first) re the cracked windshield & the bits of lead on the glass at the center of the cracks.
This is the same boss-agent who snatched Jfk's body -- & jfk's brain -- & jfk photos -- but somehow wasnt concerned about anyone finding out about the hole in the limo floor.

Whatshisname from Ford, who replaced the carpet, would have seen the hole in the carpet & the hole in the floor.
And, he would ordinarily have kept the bloody carpet for his own private collection.
But, he did not keep the carpet (koz he woz not allowed) -- which suggests that there was indeed a hole.
And, the replacing of the carpet, rather than simply cleaning it (either in-situ or ex-situ), suggests a hole.
Re the dent in the chrome being there many moons before.
Yesterday i looked at youtube footage that showed that there was no dent in the chrome trim when the jfklimo was in Main St.
Have a look at the 1:40 long footage AMIPA jfk dallas tx.......... at the 0:39 mark.
42326 views 42 comments posted Nov 20 2013.