JFK Assassination Forum

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Chris Scally on September 16, 2021, 08:48:27 PM

Title: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Chris Scally on September 16, 2021, 08:48:27 PM
All,

I know I've seen, sometime in the (distant?) past, a recreation of the famous Willis 5 "Black Dog Man" figure, but the recreation was a photo of a researcher (?) in the Black Dog Man location, but the photo was taken from a point probably on the steps up from the street above and behind the posed Black Dog Man figure, and looking down towards Elm Street. Does anyone have a copy - or know where I might find a copy of - that posed photo, please?

Any help would be very greatly received.

Thanks in anticipation.
 
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Duncan MacRae on September 17, 2021, 04:11:22 PM
All,

I know I've seen, sometime in the (distant?) past, a recreation of the famous Willis 5 "Black Dog Man" figure, but the recreation was a photo of a researcher (?) in the Black Dog Man location, but the photo was taken from a point probably on the steps up from the street above and behind the posed Black Dog Man figure, and looking down towards Elm Street. Does anyone have a copy - or know where I might find a copy of - that posed photo, please?

Any help would be very greatly received.

Thanks in anticipation.
 
Is this the one, Chris? It's not the best quality i'm afraid.

The researcher in the BDM position on the left photograph is Gary Shaw.

The photo on the right shows Gordon Arnold where he claimed to have stood.

(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Josiah.jpg)
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 18, 2021, 03:20:33 PM
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b4/80/23/b480234446ac8433fbccdcb1c6a2c147.jpg)  (https://www.jfk-assassination.net//arnold2/bdmlocation.jpg)

The Gary Shaw photo may reflect a decade's worth of erosion and subsidence since the assassination. The interior corner ground area has since been restored causing the ground level to be raised. So maybe someone standing there in 1963 might not have the concealment that Gary Shaw took advantage of.
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Chris Scally on September 20, 2021, 09:49:53 AM
Duncan and Jerry,

That is, indeed, the photo I was looking for. Many thanks indeed for your help - much appreciated. 

Chris
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Michael Welch on September 27, 2023, 06:05:23 PM
Is this the one, Chris? It's not the best quality i'm afraid.

The researcher in the BDM position on the left photograph is Gary Shaw.

The photo on the right shows Gordon Arnold where he claimed to have stood.

(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Josiah.jpg)

If you go to the bold black bar on the bottom, it will move the pictures around.
For the figure of Dog Man, I think it is Clarence Kelley. Clarence Kelley would have been one of the fake Secret Service agents who controlled the Grassy Knoll area on November 22, 1963. He was rewarded for doing this by Richard Nixon who appointed him as FBI director when J. Edgar Hoover died.

Here is what Clarence Kelley looked like on November 22, 1963. He is the man wearing the hat, glasses, and trench coat standing up by the concrete arcade by the Grassy Knoll in these Allen photographs.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Allenphoto.jpg)

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Allen_Crop1.jpg)

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Allen_Crop2.jpg)


In this Skaggs photograph, it appears that he has taken off his trench coat and is now in front of the TSBD.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Skaggs2-vert.jpg)

Here is a Betzner photograph with Black Dog Man in it.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/betzner_3_crop.jpg)

Here are a Betzner photograph and Willis photograph both showing Black Dog Man

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/LIFE_2.jpg)

And another copy of Willis 5.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Willis5Large.jpg)

Here is what Clarence Kelley looked like in the 1970s.

(https://media.gettyimages.com/id/515294264/photo/clarence-kelley-holding-press-conference.jpg?s=2048x2048&w=gi&k=20&c=82lj3z6rC7owYEv8BUX_DhPucfsQZcuzl326b95kl0Q=)

(https://media.gettyimages.com/id/515108244/photo/portrait-of-clarence-kelley.jpg?s=2048x2048&w=gi&k=20&c=KinM-Gxo3eTozwh4Z7lLhk2bCuA98UjF6tA6Zks_b5w=)

 
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Sean Kneringer on September 27, 2023, 11:17:27 PM
As with Beverly Oliver, I don't believe his story at all.

(https://img89.pixhost.to/images/896/383768992_men-who-killed-kennedy-the-forces-of-darkness-avi-00002.jpg)
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Michael Welch on September 28, 2023, 02:11:56 AM
As with Beverly Oliver, I don't believe his story at all.

(https://img89.pixhost.to/images/896/383768992_men-who-killed-kennedy-the-forces-of-darkness-avi-00002.jpg)

Hi Sean, I hope that you are doing well! What is interesting about Gordon Arnold is he gave us Badge Man. Then Jack White and Gary Mack made up a picture with Badge Man, Gordon Arnold, and Railway Man in it. Later Badge man was found in the Hughes frames, and I asked Duncan if it really was a policeman not wearing a hat, and Duncan said yes! I just found a film with a picture of a soldier in summer uniform wearing a garrison cap and possibly carrying a camera in a Murray photograph. With Beverly Oliver, I recently found a Murray photograph with her possibly in it. In other pictures the Babushka Lady is wearing black flats like Beverly has said are supposed to have yellow street marker paint on the bottoms of them. Her camera does not seem to be the movie projector type, so she lied about that aspect, in my opinion. But the pictures of the Babushka Lady depict a younger woman and not an older woman like some have suggested, in my opinion. Here are some different pictures below. Thank you for your valuable input! Sincerely yours, Michael

In this Hughes frame Badge Man is supposed to be at the far left middle; Clarence Kelley is at the far middle right, in my opinion.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Hughes_Carpark_1.jpg)

In this Murray photograph, if you go straight to the back past the wooden posts, there appears to be a man on the left hand side in a summer army uniform wearing a garrison cap and possibly carrying a camera in his right hand who could be Gordon Arnold.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Murrayscan2.jpg)

In this Murray photograph which is seldom seen, you have a young woman with black bangs coming out of a head scarf who could be Beverly Oliver.
(https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/knoll-4.jpg)

This is what Beverly Arnold looked like in 1963.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/BeverlyOliver5.jpg)


 
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Duncan MacRae on September 28, 2023, 10:56:11 AM
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/bdm1.jpg)

(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/bdm3.jpg)

(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/bdm2.jpg)
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Michael Welch on September 28, 2023, 11:06:02 AM
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/bdm1.jpg)

(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/bdm3.jpg)

(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/bdm2.jpg)

Hi Duncan, Great find!!! That would be Gordon Arnold with the army badge shining on the right or I think it is actually worn on the left side of his garrison cap!!! Finally a photograph of him very near where he said he was standing, and time has elapsed so he would have moved!!! This is great!!! Again congratulations!!! Sincerely yours, Michael

I was thinking of this type of badge.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61BXa3e1bfL._AC_UX679_.jpg)

Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Duncan MacRae on September 28, 2023, 12:48:04 PM
Hi Duncan, Great find!!! That would be Gordon Arnold with the army badge shining on the right or I think it is actually worn on the left side of his garrison cap!!! Finally a photograph of him very near where he said he was standing, and time has elapsed so he would have moved!!! This is great!!! Again congratulations!!! Sincerely yours, Michael

I'm not a believer in Badgeman or the Gordon Arnold story, Michael.

                                  (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/moorrman-arnold.gif)

Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 28, 2023, 02:45:14 PM
I'm not a believer in Badgeman or the Gordon Arnold story, Michael.

                                  (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/moorrman-arnold.gif)


Is black dog man in the Moorman pic?
Should he be in the Moorman pic?
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Michael Welch on September 28, 2023, 03:07:24 PM
I'm not a believer in Badgeman or the Gordon Arnold story, Michael.

                                  (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/moorrman-arnold.gif)


Hi Duncan, Were you the one who discovered the policeman without the hat? Do you know of any better Hughes frames with him in them? Gary Mack told me that it was not him who discovered the policeman without the hat and that it was later on. Thank you for everything! With Much Gratitude and Admiration, Michael
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 28, 2023, 03:10:51 PM
I'm not a believer in Badgeman or the Gordon Arnold story, Michael.

                                  (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/moorrman-arnold.gif)


Can you see the dark figure with his/her left arm raised in the Moorman pic?
Just where Black Dog Man should be.
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Duncan MacRae on September 28, 2023, 04:04:38 PM
Hi Duncan, Were you the one who discovered the policeman without the hat?

I'm not sure of the image you refer to. Can you post an image of this hatless Policeman, Michael?
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Duncan MacRae on September 28, 2023, 04:20:32 PM
Can you see the dark figure with his/her left arm raised in the Moorman pic?
Just where Black Dog Man should be.

Yes, Dan.

I believe what you see to be the Mother and Baby who were earlier having lunch behind the wall as witnessed by Marilyn Sitzman.

I believe that they remained behind the wall while her partner (the man seen running back up the steps ) joined the other 2 men on the steps for a closer look at the Motorcade, ie, he stood on the steps with Emmett Hudson and possibly Mr F. Lee Mudd.

Here is my own rendition of the scenario shown below.

(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/MoormanBaby1.jpg)

The Couple With Baby - Darnell Film Frame.

(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Couple1.jpg)
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Michael Welch on September 28, 2023, 06:02:07 PM
I'm not sure of the image you refer to. Can you post an image of this hatless Policeman, Michael?

Hi Duncan, Sorry for my slow response. I am just returning home. In this Hughes frame, he is the policeman on the far left in the middle of the frame. With Much Gratitude and Admiration, Michael

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Hughes_Carpark_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Duncan MacRae on September 28, 2023, 06:27:40 PM
Hi Duncan, Sorry for my slow response. I am just returning home. In this Hughes frame, he is the policeman on the far left in the middle of the frame. With Much Gratitude and Admiration, Michael

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Hughes_Carpark_1.jpg)
It wasn't my discovery
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Michael Welch on September 28, 2023, 06:59:29 PM
It wasn't my discovery

Hi Duncan, Okay, thank you very much! Do you know of any better frames of this? Would this policeman be a badgeman type person? Thank you for everything! With Much Gratitude and Admiration, Michael

Also when you reset the counter of people on this site, is it to clear out a ghost build up; for instance, if I visit a topic sixteen times, it represents me as 16 people. Thank you for everything!! Sincerely yours, Michael
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Royell Storing on October 03, 2023, 04:05:44 AM
I'm not a believer in Badgeman or the Gordon Arnold story, Michael.

                                  (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/moorrman-arnold.gif)


    "Badge Man" being hidden  in the Moorman Photo is a whatever you really wanna see situation. The Gordon Arnold story is a different animal. Arnold devoted a lot of time to walk through his Dealey Plaza experience on "The Men Who Killed Kennedy". What I do Not get is how Arnold could be right there inside Dealey Plaza and no one from the JFK Assassination Research Community was there to get detailed info from him. Arnold said he was filming the JFK Limo coming down Elm St when a bullet whizzed by his (L) ear and he hit the ground. So what did Arnold see through his view finder while filming the Limo? Arnold said the guy that took his film had a gun. What kinda gun? Did it smell of gunpowder? Was this guy with the gun White, Black, Brown, what? Did he have any kind of accent? All kinds of details needed to be fleshed out of the Arnold story and not 1 single JFK researcher button hole'd Arnold. Gary Mack & Jack White practically lived inside Dealey Plaza. Robert Groden still does. Somehow, Nigel Turner/BRITISH TV got together with Gordon Arnold and managed to get him inside Dealey Plaza to tell his story. Yet, the entire JFK Assassination Research Community failed to ever arrange a single Q/A session with Arnold.  $$$ is what has always primarily motivated the JFK Assassination Research Community. Finding the TRUTH is a far distant 2nd.       
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Robert Reeves on October 03, 2023, 07:06:12 PM
    "Badge Man" being hidden  in the Moorman Photo is a whatever you really wanna see situation. The Gordon Arnold story is a different animal. Arnold devoted a lot of time to walk through his Dealey Plaza experience on "The Men Who Killed Kennedy". What I do Not get is how Arnold could be right there inside Dealey Plaza and no one from the JFK Assassination Research Community was there to get detailed info from him. Arnold said he was filming the JFK Limo coming down Elm St when a bullet whizzed by his (L) ear and he hit the ground. So what did Arnold see through his view finder while filming the Limo? Arnold said the guy that took his film had a gun. What kinda gun? Did it smell of gunpowder? Was this guy with the gun White, Black, Brown, what? Did he have any kind of accent? All kinds of details needed to be fleshed out of the Arnold story and not 1 single JFK researcher button hole'd Arnold. Gary Mack & Jack White practically lived inside Dealey Plaza. Robert Groden still does. Somehow, Nigel Turner/BRITISH TV got together with Gordon Arnold and managed to get him inside Dealey Plaza to tell his story. Yet, the entire JFK Assassination Research Community failed to ever arrange a single Q/A session with Arnold.  $$$ is what has always primarily motivated the JFK Assassination Research Community. Finding the TRUTH is a far distant 2nd.       


Hey Royell, good to see you. Early 00's Gordon Arnold's wife and son did an interview with the 6th floor museum, I have a transcript of it. His wife claimed that Earl Golz of the Dallas Morning News secretly recorded an off the record discussion with Gordon Arnold in 1978 regarding the assassination. Golz then published the transcript - framing Arnold as having given an on the record interview. In her words, she said something like ''this betrayal brought massive unwanted attention'' from the research community.

Apparently Gordon Arnold vowed to never speak about the assassination after this happened. In 1984 Gordon Arnold was nearly killed by a hit-and-run driver. He suffered a severely damaged leg, I think, he suffered renal failure also. That's why Arnold was seen limping in The Men Who Killed Kennedy series. His wife claimed that her husband thought his life was coming to an end and so wished to speak openly about what he claimed to have witnessed on 22nd November 1963.
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Michael Welch on October 03, 2023, 09:12:54 PM


Hey Royell, good to see you. Early 00's Gordon Arnold's wife and son did an interview with the 6th floor museum, I have a transcript of it. His wife claimed that Earl Golz of the Dallas Morning News secretly recorded an off the record discussion with Gordon Arnold in 1978 regarding the assassination. Golz then published the transcript - framing Arnold as having given an on the record interview. In her words, she said something like ''this betrayal brought massive unwanted attention'' from the research community.

Apparently Gordon Arnold vowed to never speak about the assassination after this happened. In 1984 Gordon Arnold was nearly killed by a hit-and-run driver. He suffered a severely damaged leg, I think, he suffered renal failure also. That's why Arnold was seen limping in The Men Who Killed Kennedy series. His wife claimed that her husband thought his life was coming to an end and so wished to speak openly about what he claimed to have witnessed on 22nd November 1963.

Hi Robert, I hope that you are doing well! Can you post any of the transcript? Also if you have a transcript of Bonnie Ray Williams, I would love to see that as well! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Royell Storing on October 03, 2023, 11:42:00 PM


Hey Royell, good to see you. Early 00's Gordon Arnold's wife and son did an interview with the 6th floor museum, I have a transcript of it. His wife claimed that Earl Golz of the Dallas Morning News secretly recorded an off the record discussion with Gordon Arnold in 1978 regarding the assassination. Golz then published the transcript - framing Arnold as having given an on the record interview. In her words, she said something like ''this betrayal brought massive unwanted attention'' from the research community.

Apparently Gordon Arnold vowed to never speak about the assassination after this happened. In 1984 Gordon Arnold was nearly killed by a hit-and-run driver. He suffered a severely damaged leg, I think, he suffered renal failure also. That's why Arnold was seen limping in The Men Who Killed Kennedy series. His wife claimed that her husband thought his life was coming to an end and so wished to speak openly about what he claimed to have witnessed on 22nd November 1963.

    Robert - In the "Early 00's" Gary Mack was still active and routinely doing his "front man" duties for the 6th Floor Museum. Did Gary Mack do the interview of Arnold's wife and son? Your detailing that Gordon Arnold thought his life was coming to an end and wanted to get his story out as early as 1984, makes it all the more incredible that Gary Mack failed to ever Q/A Arnold from 1984 going forward. Gordon Arnold and his story of allegedly being kicked around by a "policeman with no hat" was a cornerstone supporting the "Badge Man" schtick that Mack and Jack White pitched on "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" in 1988. Mack and Arnold not ever getting together when they were essentially pushing the very same story is illogical. There must be a reason that these main players never came together.   
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Robert Reeves on October 04, 2023, 06:40:50 PM
    Robert - In the "Early 00's" Gary Mack was still active and routinely doing his "front man" duties for the 6th Floor Museum. Did Gary Mack do the interview of Arnold's wife and son? Your detailing that Gordon Arnold thought his life was coming to an end and wanted to get his story out as early as 1984, makes it all the more incredible that Gary Mack failed to ever Q/A Arnold from 1984 going forward. Gordon Arnold and his story of allegedly being kicked around by a "policeman with no hat" was a cornerstone supporting the "Badge Man" schtick that Mack and Jack White pitched on "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" in 1988. Mack and Arnold not ever getting together when they were essentially pushing the very same story is illogical. There must be a reason that these main players never came together.

Hey Royell, Yes Gary Mack plus Stephen Fagin, the current boss at 6th, both of them interviewed Mary (wife) & Les Arnold (son) re Gordon. I just reread the transcript, it jogged my memory, I have also heard the audio recording of the interview with Gordon's wife and son. I just need to correct a few thing's. The interview was done in 2006. Gordon was injured by a hit-and-run in 1985. According to Godron's son, he only gave two interviews 'on the record' about the assassination. One to sixth floor museum, and The Men Who Killed Kennedy team. Gordon Arnold refused all other requests to speak. His wife said he only read one book on the assassination of JFK, Jim Marr's book. Woah, I just noticed at the end of the interview Gordon's wife offered to hand over Gordon's camera, allegedly the one he had in his hand during the assassination, and then Gary Mack says yes, and they'd love to have any notes of documents the family has on this subject.

Quote
Mary: Would you like to have the camera on display in the museum?
Gary: We would love to have anything donated for our Collection, especially the camera or the notes, the papers. We would certainly preserve them properly, and they ll be here forever. We would love to have them.
Mary: OK.
Gary: Thank you.

Quote
Hi Robert, I hope that you are doing well! Can you post any of the transcript? Also if you have a transcript of Bonnie Ray Williams, I would love to see that as well! Thank you for everything! Sincerely yours, Michael

@Michael Welch

Hi Michael, I purchased the transcript of the interview from the sixth floor museum and posted it in its entirety here on the forum about 5 years ago. Stephen Fagin contacted me within 24hrs politely asking me to remove it from the forum, as I'd breached sixth floor's copyright.

If you would like to read the whole transcript message me and let me know. That goes for anyone else HERE who is curious to read it. I will copy and paste it back@ you. (I don't know how many characters I can copy and paste in messages here). But if it's too many I can email anyone interested a copy.

-------------------

One thing I was curious to find out about: during the interview Gordon's wife said she believed Gordon's mother worked as a seamstress in the dal-tex building. People have posted the Zapruder employee list and she wasn't listed. But it would be interesting to know who Gordon Arnold's mother was working for. Gordon was hanging around the plaza waiting for his mother to come out on her dinner break so he could take some photographs with her (As he was deploying to Alaska). This was something Gordon Arnold never mentioned in The Men Who Killed Kennedy. He never clarified why he was lurking around the grassy knoll wearing his army uniform.
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Royell Storing on October 05, 2023, 12:55:22 AM
Hey Royell, Yes Gary Mack plus Stephen Fagin, the current boss at 6th, both of them interviewed Mary (wife) & Les Arnold (son) re Gordon. I just reread the transcript, it jogged my memory, I have also heard the audio recording of the interview with Gordon's wife and son. I just need to correct a few thing's. The interview was done in 2006. Gordon was injured by a hit-and-run in 1985. According to Godron's son, he only gave two interviews 'on the record' about the assassination. One to sixth floor museum, and The Men Who Killed Kennedy team. Gordon Arnold refused all other requests to speak. His wife said he only read one book on the assassination of JFK, Jim Marr's book. Woah, I just noticed at the end of the interview Gordon's wife offered to hand over Gordon's camera, allegedly the one he had in his hand during the assassination, and then Gary Mack says yes, and they'd love to have any notes of documents the family has on this subject.

@Michael Welch

Hi Michael, I purchased the transcript of the interview from the sixth floor museum and posted it in its entirety here on the forum about 5 years ago. Stephen Fagin contacted me within 24hrs politely asking me to remove it from the forum, as I'd breached sixth floor's copyright.

If you would like to read the whole transcript message me and let me know. That goes for anyone else HERE who is curious to read it. I will copy and paste it back@ you. (I don't know how many characters I can copy and paste in messages here). But if it's too many I can email anyone interested a copy.

-------------------

One thing I was curious to find out about: during the interview Gordon's wife said she believed Gordon's mother worked as a seamstress in the dal-tex building. People have posted the Zapruder employee list and she wasn't listed. But it would be interesting to know who Gordon Arnold's mother was working for. Gordon was hanging around the plaza waiting for his mother to come out on her dinner break so he could take some photographs with her (As he was deploying to Alaska). This was something Gordon Arnold never mentioned in The Men Who Killed Kennedy. He never clarified why he was lurking around the grassy knoll wearing his army uniform.

   Robert - You mentioned that 1 of the 2 "on the record" interviews that Arnold did was with the 6th Floor Museum. Have you read/heard this Arnold interview? If so, what jumped out at you? There are many 6th Floor interviews available on You Tube. Yet, you got Fagin leaning on you with a laughable " 6th Floor's copyright" claim, even though you actually Purchased the transcript right there at the 6th Floor Museum. Just what is making the 6th Floor Museum wet their pants? The Gordon Arnold story continues reverberating to this day. Plus, it is extremely interesting that Fagin monitors the postings on this forum.       
    In "The Men Who Killed Kennedy", Arnold stated that he wanted to film the JFK Motorcade from atop the Triple Underpass, but was stopped from doing so by a guy showing CIA credentials. This would DQ the possibility that Arnold was simply hanging around Dealey Plaza waiting on his Mom. Arnold went to Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 with his mission being the filming of the JFK Motorcade.
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Robert Reeves on October 05, 2023, 06:19:21 PM
   Robert - You mentioned that 1 of the 2 "on the record" interviews that Arnold did was with the 6th Floor Museum. Have you read/heard this Arnold interview? If so, what jumped out at you? There are many 6th Floor interviews available on You Tube. Yet, you got Fagin leaning on you with a laughable " 6th Floor's copyright" claim, even though you actually Purchased the transcript right there at the 6th Floor Museum. Just what is making the 6th Floor Museum wet their pants? The Gordon Arnold story continues reverberating to this day. Plus, it is extremely interesting that Fagin monitors the postings on this forum.       
    In "The Men Who Killed Kennedy", Arnold stated that he wanted to film the JFK Motorcade from atop the Triple Underpass, but was stopped from doing so by a guy showing CIA credentials. This would DQ the possibility that Arnold was simply hanging around Dealey Plaza waiting on his Mom. Arnold went to Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 with his mission being the filming of the JFK Motorcade.

I have tried to listen to the Sixth floor recording of Gordon Arnold, but no luck. It disappeared from the listing (last time I looked). I might go back through the transcript lists to see what is there. Yeah I was somewhat surprised Stephen Fagin contacted me, but I think it was him I dealt with in the purchase of the interview with Gordon's wife and son. I don't even see the harm in me posting the interview text. They're unfairly hoarding information about the assassination.

Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Royell Storing on October 05, 2023, 07:01:58 PM
I have tried to listen to the Sixth floor recording of Gordon Arnold, but no luck. It disappeared from the listing (last time I looked). I might go back through the transcript lists to see what is there. Yeah I was somewhat surprised Stephen Fagin contacted me, but I think it was him I dealt with in the purchase of the interview with Gordon's wife and son. I don't even see the harm in me posting the interview text. They're unfairly hoarding information about the assassination.

   As usual, the Gordon Arnold story/situation is something that the JFK Assassination Research Community should have been all over/cleaned up 35 yrs ago. Arnold detailed in "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" that he drove to Dealey Plaza = his living relatively close to Dealey Plaza. How difficult would it have been to track Him/Mom down and get his story nailed down? Personally, I believe in many cases this is exactly what has already been done and the info sat on/hoarded for whatever reason(s). You got Gary Mack, Jack White, and Gordon Arnold ALL highlighted on the "Men Who Killed Kennedy" 1988, and ALL inside Dealey Plaza. These people would have got together at some point and most likely multiple times as Arnold responses to questions would have led to further questions. Gary Mack got some stuff wrong, but that said, he always stayed on the scent. There's just no way Gary Mack/Badge Man did not get together with Gordon Arnold and get down to the brass tacks.  I'm not gonna speculate as to the possible connection between what Mack knew/suspected about the JFK Assassination and his eventually becoming curator of the 6th Floor. A few of us have been previously contacted by Gary Mack regarding issues under discussion on this Forum. Now, YOU tell us you were previously contacted by Fagin over an issue being discussed on this same Forum. This makes obvious that the postings/discussions on this Forum are being scrutinized by the 6th Floor Museum.     
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Robert Reeves on October 06, 2023, 08:35:24 AM
Makes me wonder what exactly Gordon Arnold's wife handed over to the sixth floor. Gordon's wife offered them his camera, Gary Mack asked if they had any notes/documents! A lot like when the FBI/SS hoovered up almost all the evidence in the initial days after the assassination. The operation ensues!
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Jarrett Smith on October 07, 2023, 08:20:05 PM
Makes me wonder what exactly Gordon Arnold's wife handed over to the sixth floor. Gordon's wife offered them his camera, Gary Mack asked if they had any notes/documents! A lot like when the FBI/SS hoovered up almost all the evidence in the initial days after the assassination. The operation ensues!

There isn't any evidence to hide because Gordon Arnold's story is BS. 
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 13, 2023, 06:58:15 PM
I’ve more or less discarded the badge man figure being some gunman because that’s an unnecessary total exposure of himself out in the open when behind the GK fence or at the far storm drain had much better concealment while still allowing almost as close a shot.
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Royell Storing on October 14, 2023, 10:40:05 PM
Makes me wonder what exactly Gordon Arnold's wife handed over to the sixth floor. Gordon's wife offered them his camera, Gary Mack asked if they had any notes/documents! A lot like when the FBI/SS hoovered up almost all the evidence in the initial days after the assassination. The operation ensues!

      Yeah. I wonder what happened to the actual Gordon Arnold camera that he used on 11/22/63 and was given to Gary Mack during that interview on 1/13/06. If it was possibly a model camera that was produced after 1963 and therefore not available for use by Arnold for filming of the assassination, Mack and the Sixth Floor should have made that clear. Hand-me-down(s) via the family tree sometimes are inaccurate. We see it on "Antiques Road Show" as well as "Pawn Stars" proving that Aunt Bee and Uncle Joe can get confused with regard to the history of heirlooms. That said, the museum should have made clear whatever the status of that camera was then as well as now. Do they have it?   
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Sean Kneringer on October 14, 2023, 11:46:41 PM
What kind of dope would pick that spot (in the shadows) to film a motorcade? That alone should tell you he's full of crap.
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Royell Storing on October 15, 2023, 07:42:41 AM
What kind of dope would pick that spot (in the shadows) to film a motorcade? That alone should tell you he's full of crap.

     You're obviously unfamiliar with the extremely detailed interview that Arnold gave the Sixth Floor/Canover Hunt on 6/6/1989. This was shortly after "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" debuted in the UK. Arnold's position on the Knoll was easily within a stone's throw of Zapruder, and Arnold like Zapruder was elevated. You wanna call Zapruder a "dope" too?
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Sean Kneringer on October 15, 2023, 03:20:22 PM
     You're obviously unfamiliar with the extremely detailed interview that Arnold gave the Sixth Floor/Canover Hunt on 6/6/1989. This was shortly after "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" debuted in the UK. Arnold's position on the Knoll was easily within a stone's throw of Zapruder, and Arnold like Zapruder was elevated. You wanna call Zapruder a "dope" too?
Zap filmed from an elevated position in the sunshine, not under a dark canopy of trees. Moreover, Zap and Sitzman appear in several films and still photos taken that day; Arnold doesn't.
Title: Re: Help re Black Dog Man recreation photo?
Post by: Royell Storing on October 16, 2023, 05:27:40 AM
Zap filmed from an elevated position in the sunshine, not under a dark canopy of trees. Moreover, Zap and Sitzman appear in several films and still photos taken that day; Arnold doesn't.

    Lotta stuff happened that day that have never been corroborated by witnesses or images. Such as SA Lem Johns jumping out of the LBJ SS Car and then running down Elm St, or Motor Officer Hargis running up to that little brick wall, or Sitzman immediately running down the knoll and being confronted by a G Man, or the Black Couple sitting on the bench and then running up The Steps as the JFK Limo went under the Triple Underpass, or Emmit Hudson being on The Steps period. (Hudson is the only person to ID Hudson). Personally, I believe there is a corridor from the N-S Picket Fence to roughly the Stemmons Sign in which many things happened that have simply been erased.  Gordon Arnold said in his Sixth Floor Interview that 25 yrs later he could not remember with certainty exactly where he was standing while filming the JFK Limo. I believe Arnold was probably standing on a dirt hill/mound closer to that big tree that is about 3 ft out from the picket fence and back toward the shelter behind Zapruder.  Roughly, Arnold was a tad (S) and (E) of that tree/ between that tree and the cement walkway that led to The Steps.