JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: John Mytton on August 28, 2021, 12:35:48 AM
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With the 9/11 20th anniversary coming up it would be interesting to gauge the thinking that almost four decades later the American Government still conspired to murder it's own people.
Feel free to discuss the evidence like jet fuel burning temperatures, planted explosives, free falling collapsing buildings, WTC7 and etc etc.
Also if you do vote could you please explain why you voted the way you did.
I know that some aspects of this conspiracy can be seen as Off topic to this Forums title, but the very essence of covering up a grand conspiracy shares a lot with the JFKA and hopefully Duncan won't move this to the Off Topic section.
Btw to be fair I also threw in a last question where LNers who believe in a 9/11 conspiracy can also have a vote.
JohnM
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My opinion on JFK is around 60/40 in favor of conspiracy. I reject most conspiracy theories and would argue that the Kennedy assassination is inconclusive. I’m not quite certain that there was a conspiracy.
At the same time, I acknowledge that conspiracies can and do happen (ie Watergate, Iran Contra, political coups and assassinations in other countries, criminal conspiracies etc).
Most conspiracy theories don’t make a whole lot of sense. But there are some cases where a conspiracy is likely even if CT’ers are mostly wrong about the “who” and “how”.
I’ve looked into the 9/11 conspiracy stuff but never found any of the theories convincing.
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A caveat. Many American LNers are Trump-idolizers and McConnell-Graham-Cruz-GOP supporters. They're obviously been radicalized by networks like Fox News and sites like Breitbart. Maybe they don't go for the 9-11 stuff, but they're pretty susceptible to conspiracy theory.
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Technically 9/11 was a conspiracy since at least 19 hijackers were involved but I assume you mean some conspiracy involving the US government. The latter, of course, is insane on any number of levels including the basic incompetence of the government to carry out any such conspiracy. Just take a look at how Old Joe is handling things in Afghanistan. A fiasco. If the government were involved in 9/11, the hijackers would have taken all the money and gone to a strip club.
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Technically 9/11 was a conspiracy since at least 19 hijackers were involved but I assume you mean some conspiracy involving the US government. The latter, of course, is insane on any number of levels including the basic incompetence of the government to carry out any such conspiracy. Just take a look at how Old Joe is handling things in Afghanistan. A fiasco. If the government were involved in 9/11, the hijackers would have taken all the money and gone to a strip club.
Technically 9/11 was a conspiracy since at least 19 hijackers were involved
Thumb1:
Yes you're right and to remove any ambiguity I have altered the Thread title.
JohnM
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A caveat. Many American LNers are Trump-idolizers and McConnell-Graham-Cruz-GOP supporters. They're obviously been radicalized by networks like Fox News and sites like Breitbart. Maybe they don't go for the 9-11 stuff, but they're pretty susceptible to conspiracy theory.
Huh? Many American LNers have been radicalized into believing government conspiracies by Fox News and Breitbart but they don't believe in a 9/11 conspiracy? Or, obviously a JFK conspiracy for that matter.
That doesn't make a lick of sense. If they've succumbed to or have been manipulated into believing in government conspiracies then why do they reject the two most noted alleged conspiracies in US history? That's completely illogical. Wouldn't they be more likely to believe in those two conspiracies?
And where did you come up with this "Many American LNers..?" I've seen no polls or surveys on JFK conspiracy belief indicating any connection between political ideology and belief in a conspiracy. Furthermore, the most noted JFK conspiracy believers have been your fellow anti-American leftwingers like Mark Lane and Oliver Stone. Not anyone on the political right (although I guess Garrison could have been put there).
I think you've been hanging around these conspiracists for so long that you're beginning to think like they do.
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A caveat. Many American LNers are Trump-idolizers and McConnell-Graham-Cruz-GOP supporters. They're obviously been radicalized by networks like Fox News and sites like Breitbart. Maybe they don't go for the 9-11 stuff, but they're pretty susceptible to conspiracy theory.
Huh? Many American LNers have been radicalized into believing government conspiracies by Fox News and Breitbart but they don't believe in a 9/11 conspiracy? Or, obviously a JFK conspiracy for that matter.
That doesn't make a lick of sense. If they've succumbed to or have been manipulated into believing in government conspiracies then why do they reject the two most noted conspiracies in US history? That's completely illogical. Wouldn't they be more likely to believe in those two conspiracies?
And where did you come up with this "Many American LNers..?" I've seen no polls or surveys on JFK conspiracy belief indicating any connection between political ideology and belief in a conspiracy. Furthermore, the most noted JFK conspiracy believers have been your fellow anti-American leftwingers like Mark Lane and Oliver Stone. Not anyone on the political right (although I guess Garrison could have been put there).
I think you've been hanging around these conspiracists for so long that you're beginning to think like they do.
I believe that Trump supporters are more likely to believe in the JFK conspiracy and not be LNers. Particularly the ones who believe in the Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy that hundreds of volunteer poll works, hundreds of programmers, conspired to throw the election to Biden. As Steve points out, someone who falls for one L-S-E conspiracy theory is more likely to fall for others. That only makes sense.
Among the strong Trump supporters, including his claims of a stolen election, who also support the JFK conspiracy theory that I can name off the top of my head:
Alex Jones
Roger Stone
Donald Trump
And, of course, I can assure everyone here that I both currently reject any JFK conspiracy theory (subject to change, with convincing evidence, which I do not expect) and reject Trump (not subject to change, ever, unless I develop Alzheimer's disease) for being a fascist and a traitor to America and the most basic democratic traditions.
My only disagreement with Steve is that I think both the far left and the far right are equally susceptible to believing in a JFK conspiracy theory. Particularly a U. S. government conspiracy theory. Both don’t like democracy and will tend to embrace a theory that means our democracy is really a sham.
Question:
What prominent supporter of Trump and his “Stolen Election” claims is also a LNer?
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Hello John
I see your poll asks:
* I believe that JFK was assassinated as part of a conspiracy and 9/11 was also a U. S. G. conspiracy
* I believe that JFK was assassinated as part of a conspiracy and 9/11 was also a U. S. G. conspiracy
* I’m a LNer and I believe that 9/11 was also a U. S. G. conspiracy
Like Captain Kirk, I need a fourth alternative, before I can participate in this poll, like:
* I’m a LNer and I don’t believe in the 9/11 U. S. G. conspiracy theory, and I don’t believe in the stolen 2020 election theory and I don’t believe in any Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy theory.
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So no "Trump-idolizers and McConnell-Graham-Cruz-GOP supporters" here who are LNers? :D
No LNer here who claimed, for example, that Babbitt was a patriot who was "murdered"? That Joe Biden is an invalid?
And where did you come up with this "Many American LNers..?" I've seen no polls or surveys on JFK conspiracy belief indicating any connection between political ideology and belief in a conspiracy.
Yet, you always tie in JFK conspiracy belief to people on the "left".
Furthermore, the most noted JFK conspiracy believers have been your fellow anti-American leftwingers like Mark Lane and Oliver Stone. Not anyone on the political right (although I guess Garrison could have been put there).
The closet far-right radical. I didn't claim radicalized arch-right American LNers believed in a JFK conspiracy, but they are susceptible to conspiracy theory of their liking, dished up by the likes of Fox News and Breitbart.
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JFK and 9/11 conspiracy theory believers seem pretty spread out across the political spectrum.
LN’ers also seem to be pretty ideologically diverse.
How someone views the JFK assassination is rarely predictive of the person’s political views.
One thing I’ve noticed in the last few years is that recent conspiracy theories tend to be more partisan than conspiracy theories of the past. Examples: “Benghazi”, “Fast and Furious”, “Trump-Russia collusion”, “The Great Reset”, “Q-Anon”.
The only recent conspiracy theory that I can think of where there are bi-partisan subscribers is the Jeffrey Epstein stuff. Lots of people on the Left and Right seem to agree that he didn’t kill himself.
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Bushes, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, etc.
These clowns and their Project for the New American Century were capable of anything. I'm sure the tower's actually collapsing came as an immense surprise to each individual Bush government member. That's the way these thing's happen.
I googled ''Barry Jennings WTC7'' surprisingly he doesn't have a wikipedia page. I find that really odd. This was a very infamous character in the whole 9/11 movement. Out of all the voices re 9/11 I find his version of what was happening on 9/11 the most fascinating and truthful. His disappearance/death just adds to his probable truth.
RIP Barry Jennings, Deputy Director of the Emergency Services Department for the New York City Housing Authority
BTW, I didn't vote. I think these stupid 'conspiracy' votes on this site are used as more fuel to try and wreck someone else's views at a later date. I participated because I believe USA is, and has been, an out of control death machine for way too long and I am never surprised when a tragedy occurs there, or here, or anywhere else.
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"My only disagreement with Steve is that I think both the far left and the far right are equally susceptible to believing in a JFK conspiracy theory."
Joe, yes, I suspect that too. Although I haven't seen any polling data on the question. Has there been any polling on the ideological makeup of JFK conspiracy believers? I'm not aware of it.
There is what political scientists call a "horseshoe theory" where the far political left and far political right, instead of being polar opposites, tend to merge or agree on critical matters. There's a populist far left and a populist far right - think of Bernie Sanders' supporters and Trump supporters - that both believe the government has been stolen, that rich and powerful elites run too much of it. They obviously disagree on who these people are and their purpose behind this control. But both agree there is this cabal that runs things. I think it's this type of thinking that leads to a believe in a JFK conspiracy. That JFK was a threat to this cabal and it was for that that he was silenced.
Part of the problem for us with this view is I'm very confident that the majority of people in many other countries also believe there was a conspiracy behind the assassination. I've seen a poll of people in the UK (can't recall the date) that showed 65% believe there was one. So the far left/far right grouping in the US has to take into account this fact. That is, it's not just the "extremes" that believe this. Although that might be true in other countries too. That is, far left and far right people in the UK or France or Japan (whatever) are more likely to believe in a JFK conspiracy.
Back to Jerry Organ's illogical argument: He says that "Many LNers" watch Fox and Breitbart and have been manipulated into believing government conspiracies. But they don't believe in a 9/11 conspiracy. Or the JFK conspiracy either. That makes no sense to me. If they've been brainwashed into embracing government conspiracy theories then why do they reject the two most famous alleged conspiracies in modern US history?: JFK's death and 9/11/.
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Back to Jerry Organ's illogical argument: He says that "Many LNers" watch Fox and Breitbart and have been manipulated into believe government conspiracies. But they don't believe in a 9/11 conspiracy. Or the JFK conspiracy either.
Many American LNers of a conservative nature. And what's illogical is that if someone believes in one or two conspiracy theories, they have to believe in them all.
Again, that makes no sense. If they've been brainwashed into embracing government conspiracy theories
You obviously think rightwingers are immune to being radicalized for their "cause" (which is not to help America, but to control the government). These Trump supporters (and probably more than a few of their less-entrenched enablers who voted for the arch-right GOP) think much of the conspiracy-think spewing out of a conservative source like Fox News (ie: the Hannity, Carlson, and Ingraham triumvirate) isn't that extreme or harmful. Just testing the waters, rhetoric, or enjoying how the "liberals" overreact.
Birtherism, death panels, the deep state, Charlottesville actors, playing dumb about QAnon or quietly believing it (1/3 of Republican believe it), the "stolen" election, doubt about the COVID vaccine, 1-06 a "false Trump flag ops", Babbitt was murdered in an ambush ...
then why do they reject the two most famous alleged conspiracies in modern US history: JFK's death and 9/11/.
I don't think the "9-11 Conspiracy" really caught on. Seems there's hardly any promotion of it on Fox News; a Republican was President at the time and is well-remembered for his uniting efforts in the aftermath.
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There is what political scientists call a "horseshoe theory" where the far political left and far political right, instead of being polar opposites, tend to merge or agree on critical matters. There's a populist far left and a populist far right - think of Bernie Sanders' supporters and Trump supporters - that both believe the government has been stolen, that rich and powerful elites run too much of it. They obviously disagree on who these people are and their purpose behind this control. But both agree there is this cabal that runs things. I think it's this type of thinking that leads to a believe in a JFK conspiracy. That JFK was a threat to this cabal and it was for that that he was silenced.
While it's true that distrust of elites is a characteristic shared by both the Populist Left and Populist Right, it's a stretch to say they all agree on the "cabal" or deep state thing. The "Q-Anon" thing never gained traction on the Left and most people on the US Left view Donald Trump as part of the power elite, not an adversary of the elite. Also, JFK isn't universally loved on the Left. There have been some outspoken critics of JFK like Noam Chomsky, who also rejects that the assassination was a conspiracy.
I do believe that the super wealthy have a disproportionate level of influence and power in the US. That's a simple fact due to the way our political system works, not a theory. What I don't agree with is the view that there is consensus among the power elite. There's no bigger example of the lack of coherence among elites than US policies towards China. While there seems to be consensus among the political elite in the US on confronting China, the economic elite consensus appears to not want to rock the boat with China as they remain our biggest trade partner.
So while it's true that people like Michael Bloomberg and Jeff Bezos have a disproportionate level of political power and influence, it's also true that the elite influencers don't agree on everything and may not trust each other enough to coordinate on some grand conspiracy.
Part of the reason why it's difficult to kill some Conspiracy Theories is that there's almost always a grain of truth in them.
The Roosevelts and Kennedys were viewed as traitors to their elite class. Whether or not it played a role in coup plot against FDR or the assassination of JFK is open for debate but it's understandable why people connect those things.
The same Class dynamics don't appear to be at play in the 9/11 conspiracy theories...
Back to Jerry Organ's illogical argument: He says that "Many LNers" watch Fox and Breitbart and have been manipulated into believe government conspiracies. But they don't believe in a 9/11 conspiracy. Or the JFK conspiracy either. Again, that makes no sense. If they've been brainwashed into embracing government conspiracy theories then why do they reject the two most famous alleged conspiracies in modern US history: JFK's death and 9/11/.
There's no partisan divide on JFK conspiracy theories. As you mentioned earlier, distrust of politicians and the elite is bi-partisan. But trust in elites and institutions is bi-partisan too.
NBC News-
The One Thing All Americans Agree On: JFK Conspiracy
More than 50 percent of most every demographic group believes “others were involved” in the assassination: Men and women, whites, blacks and Hispanics, registered voters and non-registered, all age groups.
And in an era when the political divides appear in everything from media consumption to shopping habits, the JFK assassination is one area where supporters of President Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton agree: 61 percent of Trump voters and 59 percent of Clinton voters believe “others were involved.”
The one demographic group that believes Oswald acted alone, according to the FiveThirtyEight poll, is college educated white people – and the numbers are very close with 48 percent saying one man killed JFK and 46 percent saying others were involved.
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/jfk-assassination-files/one-thing-all-americans-agree-jfk-conspiracy-n815371
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So no "Trump-idolizers and McConnell-Graham-Cruz-GOP supporters" here who are LNers? :D
No LNer here who claimed, for example, that Babbitt was a patriot who was "murdered"? That Joe Biden is an invalid?
First of all, I’m looking for LNers who believe in the Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump. Not merely LNers who support Trump. We have at least one Trump supporter here who is a LNer. But I know of no LNer who believes in the “Stolen Election” Conspiracy theory.
So, you seem to imply that there are some LNers who believe in the “Stolen Election” Conspiracy theory. Perhaps there are, but I do not know of any. So, echoing Lindsay Graham, I say “Give my ten names.” Or at least give me one.
Question: What famous LNer believes in the “Stolen Election” Conspiracy theory?
Question: What non-famous LNer, maybe someone with this forum”, who believes in the “Stolen Election” Conspiracy theory?
Yet, you always tie in JFK conspiracy belief to people on the "left".
The closet far-right radical. I didn't claim radicalized arch-right American LNers believed in a JFK conspiracy, but they are susceptible to conspiracy theory of their liking, dished up by the likes of Fox News and Breitbart.
Many American LNers of a conservative nature. And what's illogical is that if someone believes in one or two conspiracy theories, they have to believe in them all.
I never claimed that if a person believes in one conspiracy theory they believe in them all. Instead I make the much narrower claim that if one believes in one conspiracy theory, one is more likely to believe in others.
So, I expect that there is a higher percentage of CTers who believe in the “2020 Stolen Election” conspiracy theory than among LNers. And the same would be true for the QAnon, Sandy Hook, 911, Fake-Moon-Landing and other conspiracy theories. A lower percentage of LNers would believe in them than the CTers.
Again, if I am wrong, give me ten names. Or at least give me one.
You obviously think rightwingers are immune to being radicalized for their "cause" (which is not to help America, but to control the government). These Trump supporters (and probably more than a few of their less-entrenched enablers who voted for the arch-right GOP) think much of the conspiracy-think spewing out of a conservative source like Fox News (ie: the Hannity, Carlson, and Ingraham triumvirate) isn't that extreme or harmful. Just testing the waters, rhetoric, or enjoying how the "liberals" overreact.
Birtherism, death panels, the deep state, Charlottesville actors, playing dumb about QAnon or quietly believing it (1/3 of Republican believe it), the "stolen" election, doubt about the COVID vaccine, 1-06 a "false Trump flag ops", Babbitt was murdered in an ambush ...
I don't think the "9-11 Conspiracy" really caught on. Seems there's hardly any promotion of it on Fox News; a Republican was President at the time and is well-remembered for his uniting efforts in the aftermath.
I don’t know if these statements apply to me but no, I don’t think the right wingers are immune to conspiracy theories. I think the far left and the far right are both equally susceptible to anti-democratic conspiracy theories. Theories that, if true, tell us that our democracy is a sham. Conspiracy Theories like JFK, 911, Stolen-2020-Election. Naturally, these theories are equally attractive to those who do not believe in democracy, which includes both the far left and the far right.
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"My only disagreement with Steve is that I think both the far left and the far right are equally susceptible to believing in a JFK conspiracy theory."
Joe, yes, I suspect that too. Although I haven't seen any polling data on the question. Has there been any polling on the ideological makeup of JFK conspiracy believers? I'm not aware of it.
Ok. No real disagreement between us. Just my misunderstanding of your position. My mistake.
I have often thought it would be interesting to have a poll to see how strong the correlation is between JFK conspiracy beliefs and other conspiracy beliefs. But I suspect a CTer may smell a rat and claim to be a LNer who supports various conspiracy theories. In any case, I know of no such poll either.
There is what political scientists call a "horseshoe theory" where the far political left and far political right, instead of being polar opposites, tend to merge or agree on critical matters. There's a populist far left and a populist far right - think of Bernie Sanders' supporters and Trump supporters - that both believe the government has been stolen, that rich and powerful elites run too much of it. They obviously disagree on who these people are and their purpose behind this control. But both agree there is this cabal that runs things. I think it's this type of thinking that leads to a believe in a JFK conspiracy. That JFK was a threat to this cabal and it was for that that he was silenced.
Part of the problem for us with this view is I'm very confident that the majority of people in many other countries also believe there was a conspiracy behind the assassination. I've seen a poll of people in the UK (can't recall the date) that showed 65% believe there was one. So the far left/far right grouping in the US has to take into account this fact. That is, it's not just the "extremes" that believe this. Although that might be true in other countries too. That is, far left and far right people in the UK or France or Japan (whatever) are more likely to believe in a JFK conspiracy.
Back to Jerry Organ's illogical argument: He says that "Many LNers" watch Fox and Breitbart and have been manipulated into believing government conspiracies. But they don't believe in a 9/11 conspiracy. Or the JFK conspiracy either. That makes no sense to me. If they've been brainwashed into embracing government conspiracy theories then why do they reject the two most famous alleged conspiracies in modern US history?: JFK's death and 9/11/.
Yes. Jerry Organ make various claims about “Many LNers”. But I wish he would give us ten names. Or at least one name. Of a LNer who believes in some Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory. Not just the name of some Trump supporter but a LNer who supports the Stolen-2020-Election, QAnon, Sandy Hook or some other conspiracy theory. I suspect there must exist some LNer who fits the bill. I’m just skeptical that such LNers are common.
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First of all, I’m looking for LNers who believe in the Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump. Not merely LNers who support Trump. We have at least one Trump supporter here who is a LNer. But I know of no LNer who believes in the “Stolen Election” Conspiracy theory.
So, you seem to imply that there are some LNers who believe in the “Stolen Election” Conspiracy theory.
I don't think I implied that. That's a pretty high bar.
Perhaps there are, but I do not know of any. So, echoing Lindsay Graham, I say “Give my ten names.” Or at least give me one.
Question: What famous LNer believes in the “Stolen Election” Conspiracy theory?
Question: What non-famous LNer, maybe someone with this forum”, who believes in the “Stolen Election” Conspiracy theory?
You'll have to show me where I was bringing that up.
I never claimed that if a person believes in one conspiracy theory they believe in them all.
Where did I say you did?
Instead I make the much narrower claim that if one believes in one conspiracy theory, one is more likely to believe in others.
So, I expect that there is a higher percentage of CTers who believe in the “2020 Stolen Election” conspiracy theory than among LNers. And the same would be true for the QAnon, Sandy Hook, 911, Fake-Moon-Landing and other conspiracy theories. A lower percentage of LNers would believe in them than the CTers.
Your opinion is noted. I didn't compared CTs and LNers.
Again, if I am wrong, give me ten names. Or at least give me one.
I don’t know if these statements apply to me but no, I don’t think the right wingers are immune to conspiracy theories. I think the far left and the far right are both equally susceptible to anti-democratic conspiracy theories. Theories that, if true, tell us that our democracy is a sham. Conspiracy Theories like JFK, 911, Stolen-2020-Election. Naturally, these theories are equally attractive to those who do not believe in democracy, which includes both the far left and the far right.
Nice that you're making this about yourself.
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We were told that WTC-7 housed the NYC "command center" and fuel storage for back up generators providing uninterruptible power to that failsafe facility and that 47 stories tall, WTC-7 likely collapsed spontaneously around 5:00 PM on 9/11, although it had not been struck by an airliner, due to the intense heat generated by the petroleum storage tanks, and blah, blah, blah.
NIST, the investigating federal agency, early on made the decision not to increase investigative staff despite the fact the collapse of WTC-7 was unprecedented and building code revisions for future steel framed towers depended on pinpointing the cause of the WTC-7 collapse.
I followed the investigation's progress and information releases for, more than 7 years. In the meantime, towers continued to be designed and built without the input of NIST's WTC-7 investigative results!
NIST Releases Final WTC 7 Investigation Report
https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2008/11/nist-releases-final-wtc-7-investigation-report
Nov 25, 2008 — The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) last week released its final report on the Sept. 11, 2001, collapse of the ...
Ordinary Heroes: A Memoir Of 9/11 - Page 220 - t
Link: https://books.google.com › books (https://books.google.com/books?id=BIs8EAAAQBAJ&pg=PA220&lpg=PA220&dq=wtc7+nist+"ordinary+office"&source=bl&ots=-CX3k5bsg_&sig=ACfU3U3uuvlCrglyf0Zk17dqs4qOEwU5ww&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbieTN8tjyAhWYDjQIHUEKAZ0Q6AF6BAgIEAM#v=onepage&q=wtc7%20nist%20"ordinary%20office"&f=false)
Joseph Pfeifer · 2021 · Biography & Autobiography
In 2008 , NIST finished its investigation of WTC - 7 , the forty ... Fueled by ordinary office furnishings , the fire quickly spread to numerous floors .
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51413520909_1da2d94468_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51412766776_41446b74fc_z.jpg)
Former director Mueller and every presidential administration since GW Bush has protected the Saudis instead of opting to make a full disclosure to the American people. Mueller inaccurately stated there was no paper trail and no use of electronic devices like computers by the hijackers.:
https://chicagotribune.com/cached (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:95gdPUI6LHMJ:https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2002-05-01-0205010399-story.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=opera)
FBI says hijackers `left no paper trail'
Eric Lichtblau and Josh Meyer. Special to the Tribune. Eric Lichtblau and Josh Meyer are staff writers for the Los Angeles Times, a Tribune newspaper
CHICAGO TRIBUNE - May 1, 2002
For more than seven months, U.S. authorities probing the Sept. 11 attacks have scoured everything from caves to credit cards hoping to discover how the 19 hijackers plotted their brazen scheme.
The global search has produced virtually nothing, and authorities concede they may never know many key details of the terrorists' plans.
That sobering conclusion underscores the sophistication of Al Qaeda in concealing its activities. It also shows the daunting difficulties that authorities face in thwarting another attack, officials said.
The hijackers "left no paper trail," FBI Director Robert Mueller said in the text of an April 19 speech the FBI released Monday.
"In our investigation, we have not uncovered a single piece of paper--either here in the United States or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere--that mentioned any aspect of the Sept. 11 plot," he said.
Meanwhile, U.S. officials told The Associated Press that investigators no longer believe suicide hijacker Mohamed Atta met with an Iraqi intelligence agent in Prague last spring, erasing the only reported link between Saddam Hussein's regime and the attacks.
Mueller's remarks offer the FBI's most detailed assessment to date of its investigation. He said that investigators believe the Sept. 11 plan may have been in the works for as long as five years, and that the hijackers used "meticulous planning, extraordinary secrecy and extensive knowledge of how America works" to conceal their scheme after entering the U.S. legally from the Middle East.
Investigators have found no computers, laptops, hard drives or other storage media that may have been used by the hijackers, who hid their communications by using hundreds of different pay phones and cell phones, coupled with hard-to-trace prepaid calling cards.
In executing wire transfers to fund the attacks, they were careful to send money in small amounts, avoiding large transactions that would have triggered a government report, Mueller said.
"The hijackers did all they could to stay below our radar," he observed.
The FBI and other U.S. intelligence agencies have come under scrutiny since Sept. 11, and some analysts suggested Mueller's comments, made in a speech in San Francisco , may be an attempt to rationalize the intelligence community's failure to detect signs of an imminent attack.
Law-enforcement officials say they have been able to reconstruct the movements of the hijackers in the months before the attacks--all legal except for a few speeding tickets.
"We have been able to glean quite a bit in tracking their movements, but as far as being able to identify . . . some type of master plan that was shared with a number of people outlining just how they were going to pull this off, that's something we've not been able to uncover," an FBI official said.
The paucity of information "confirms what we have thought for a long time: If there was any doubt about the professionalism of the hijackers, the FBI director's quotes should dispel that," a White House official said.
"If it took . . . years to develop the 9/11 plot, then it is very possible that we are in a similar period right now, where individuals are practicing the same type of operational security in preparation for another attack."
Mueller's assessment of the plot "deepens the sense that these guys [in Al Qaeda] have really taken a quantum leap in their ability to carry out an operation without all the traditional accouterments," said terrorism expert Daniel Benjamin, a former National Security Council aide."
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/magazine/9-11-saudi-arabia-fbi.html
The Saudi Connection: Inside the 9/11 Case That Divided the F.B.I.
A small team of agents spent years investigating whether one of Washington’s closest allies was involved in the worst terror attack in U.S. history. This is their story.
January 23, 2020
:The full story of the F.B.I.’s investigation into Saudi links to the 9/11 attacks has remained largely untold. Even the code name of the case — Operation Encore — has never been published before. This account is based on interviews with more than 50 current and former investigators, intelligence officials and witnesses in the case. It also draws on some previously secret documents as well as on the voluminous public files of the bipartisan 9/11 Commission.
The Encore investigation exposed a bitter rift within the bureau over the Saudi connection. It illuminated a series of missed opportunities to resolve questions about links between one of Washington’s closest allies and the deadliest attack in the nation’s history. Richard Lambert, who led the F.B.I.’s initial 9/11 investigation in San Diego, as the assistant special agent in charge there, says he believes that even if the F.B.I.’s evidence of possible Saudi involvement in the case is not conclusive, it is significant enough that it should be fully disclosed. “The circumstantial evidence has mounted,” he says. “Given the lapse of time, I don’t know any reason why the truth should be kept from the American people.”..."
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This NIST (National Institute of Science and Technology) report based on interviews, is dated three years
before NIST released its final report on the unprecedented collapse of WTC-7 from "ordinary office contents fueled fire."
It is a big .pdg file, nearly 300 pages!
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-af8729e24077b212ca94e087541b42d8/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-af8729e24077b212ca94e087541b42d8.pdf
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51413818430_b9bf560d53_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51412091617_deb7c0f581_c.jpg)
Two things stand out to me. The 2008 NIST final report states water to fight the fire in WTC-7 or to pressurize the building's sprinkler system was unavailable, yet in 2005 two functioning fire boats capable of pumping high volumes of water from the Hudson river were nearby.
The second is that by noon there was concern of imminent collapse of WTC-7.... why, if collapse would be an unprecedented incident? Since collapse potential was unprecedented and most floors were not involved in fire, including the uppermost 17 floors when the decision was made to do nothing, why was not every effort made to connect one of the fire boat's output to a sidewalk level standpoint resulting in pressurizing the building's sprinkler system?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center
"...On September 11, 2001, the structure was substantially damaged by debris when the nearby North Tower of the World Trade Center collapsed. The debris ignited fires on multiple lower floors of the building, which continued to burn uncontrolled throughout the afternoon. The building's internal fire suppression system lacked water pressure to fight the fires. The collapse began when a critical internal column buckled and triggered cascading failure of nearby columns throughout, which was first visible from the exterior with the crumbling of a rooftop penthouse structure at 5:20:33 pm. This initiated progressive collapse of the entire building at 5:21:10 pm, according to FEMA,[5]:23 while the 2008 NIST study placed the final collapse time at 5:20:52 pm.[6]:19, 21, 50–51 The collapse made the old 7 World Trade Center the first steel skyscraper known to have collapsed primarily due to uncontrolled fires.[7][8]
...After the World Trade Center bombings of February 26, 1993, New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani decided to situate the emergency command center and associated fuel tanks at 7 World Trade Center. Although this decision was criticized in light of the events of 9/11, the fuel in the building is today not believed to have contributed to the collapse of the building.[19][20]:2..."
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51413520909_1da2d94468_c.jpg)
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"My only disagreement with Steve is that I think both the far left and the far right are equally susceptible to believing in a JFK conspiracy theory."
Joe, yes, I suspect that too. Although I haven't seen any polling data on the question. Has there been any polling on the ideological makeup of JFK conspiracy believers? I'm not aware of it.
There is what political scientists call a "horseshoe theory" where the far political left and far political right, instead of being polar opposites, tend to merge or agree on critical matters. There's a populist far left and a populist far right - think of Bernie Sanders' supporters and Trump supporters - that both believe the government has been stolen, that rich and powerful elites run too much of it. They obviously disagree on who these people are and their purpose behind this control. But both agree there is this cabal that runs things. I think it's this type of thinking that leads to a believe in a JFK conspiracy. That JFK was a threat to this cabal and it was for that that he was silenced.
Part of the problem for us with this view is I'm very confident that the majority of people in many other countries also believe there was a conspiracy behind the assassination. I've seen a poll of people in the UK (can't recall the date) that showed 65% believe there was one. So the far left/far right grouping in the US has to take into account this fact. That is, it's not just the "extremes" that believe this. Although that might be true in other countries too. That is, far left and far right people in the UK or France or Japan (whatever) are more likely to believe in a JFK conspiracy.
Back to Jerry Organ's illogical argument: He says that "Many LNers" watch Fox and Breitbart and have been manipulated into believing government conspiracies. But they don't believe in a 9/11 conspiracy. Or the JFK conspiracy either. That makes no sense to me. If they've been brainwashed into embracing government conspiracy theories then why do they reject the two most famous alleged conspiracies in modern US history?: JFK's death and 9/11/.
All the more ironic is that perhaps the biggest and most outlandish conspiracy theory in modern history - surpassing even the JFK conspiracies and 9/11 - is the fake Russian collusion conspiracy theory touted by leftists for years. A wild conspiracy theory that suggested that the President of the United States was an agent of Russia or under some form of blackmail to do Russia's binding. But others are the conspiracy theorists. The hypocrisy is astounding.
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Strangely, I agree with Spike Lee about something :)
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This NIST (National Institute of Science and Technology) report based on interviews, is dated three years
before NIST released its final report on the unprecedented collapse of WTC-7 from "ordinary office contents fueled fire."
It is a big .pdg file, nearly 300 pages!
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-af8729e24077b212ca94e087541b42d8/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-af8729e24077b212ca94e087541b42d8.pdf
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51413818430_b9bf560d53_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51412091617_deb7c0f581_c.jpg)
Two things stand out to me. The 2008 NIST final report states water to fight the fire in WTC-7 or to pressurize the building's sprinkler system was unavailable, yet in 2005 two functioning fire boats capable of pumping high volumes of water from the Hudson river were nearby.
The second is that by noon there was concern of imminent collapse of WTC-7.... why, if collapse would be an unprecedented incident? Since collapse potential was unprecedented and most floors were not involved in fire, including the uppermost 17 floors when the decision was made to do nothing, why was not every effort made to connect one of the fire boat's output to a sidewalk level standpoint resulting in pressurizing the building's sprinkler system?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center
"...On September 11, 2001, the structure was substantially damaged by debris when the nearby North Tower of the World Trade Center collapsed. The debris ignited fires on multiple lower floors of the building, which continued to burn uncontrolled throughout the afternoon. The building's internal fire suppression system lacked water pressure to fight the fires. The collapse began when a critical internal column buckled and triggered cascading failure of nearby columns throughout, which was first visible from the exterior with the crumbling of a rooftop penthouse structure at 5:20:33 pm. This initiated progressive collapse of the entire building at 5:21:10 pm, according to FEMA,[5]:23 while the 2008 NIST study placed the final collapse time at 5:20:52 pm.[6]:19, 21, 50–51 The collapse made the old 7 World Trade Center the first steel skyscraper known to have collapsed primarily due to uncontrolled fires.[7][8]
...After the World Trade Center bombings of February 26, 1993, New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani decided to situate the emergency command center and associated fuel tanks at 7 World Trade Center. Although this decision was criticized in light of the events of 9/11, the fuel in the building is today not believed to have contributed to the collapse of the building.[19][20]:2..."
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51413818430_b9bf560d53_b.jpg)
300 pages? That's a lot of reading. Thanks for posting, Tom.