JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Vincent Baxter on August 21, 2021, 03:25:07 PM
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So, slightly off topic but I took a bit of time off from my never ending JFK books recently and read a couple of books about the Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King assassinations. Coming from England, none of these are really taught about in school so a lot of the stuff was relatively new to me.
Obviously numerous conspiracy theories seem to doubt the official version of events around RFK and MLK and I just wondered if there was a pattern whereby JFK CTs generally seem to also believe in conspiracy theories surrounding these other two assassinations and whether people who believe the Oswald LN theory tend to go for the official RFK and MLK verdicts?
For the record I'm an Oswald LNer and, whereby there does seem to be some fishy aspects surrounding the RFK assassination, I'm very much leaning to the fact that they convicted the right people.
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So, slightly off topic but I took a bit of time off from my never ending JFK books recently and read a couple of books about the Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King assassinations. Coming from England, none of these are really taught about in school so a lot of the stuff was relatively new to me.
Obviously numerous conspiracy theories seem to doubt the official version of events around RFK and MLK and I just wondered if there was a pattern whereby JFK CTs generally seem to also believe in conspiracy theories surrounding these other two assassinations and whether people who believe the Oswald LN theory tend to go for the official RFK and MLK verdicts?
For the record I'm an Oswald LNer and, whereby there does seem to be some fishy aspects surrounding the RFK assassination, I'm very much leaning to the fact that they convicted the right people.
Vincent Bugliosi thought the RFK assassination was a conspiracy. Though i'm not sure why he reached that conclusion.
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The earliest FBI sketch of the alleged MLK assassin looked almost exactly like one of the three tramps.
Raoul/smallest tramp
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6tX8ctS/Raol.jpg)
The supposed Raoul person James Earl Ray claimed shot MLK. Earl Ray's weird choice of attorney Percy Foreman. Foreman represented various mafia bosses, Jack Ruby, General Walker, Charles Harrelson, etc.
Ann Arbor Sun, October 4, 1974. https://aadl.org/node/197923 (https://aadl.org/node/197923)
This fall, it looks like the assassination of Martin Luther King will be coming back to haunt us.
Six and a half years after the killing, and after wide suspicion that a covered-up conspiracy was responsible for it, the case may be reopened. James Earl Ray, the "lone gunman" now in jail for shooting King, is well on his way toward getting a new trial which his lawyer, Robert I. Livingston, thinks will exonerate him of guilt. Furthermore, Livingston thinks the real killers will be found - and that they will turn out to have had something to do with the shooting of President John Kennedy in 1963.
"There is a possible connection between the Kennedy assassination and the King assassination," says Livingston, "and the whole thing is being covered up by the federal government, the Department of Justice and the State of Tennessee. The more we go into it the more we discover has been covered up here."
On October 22, assuming no legal obstacles arise, Ray will have an evidentiary hearing before U.S. Dist. Judge Robert McRae in Memphis to determine whether he should get a new trial. Ray himself will be among those testifying. Livingston is optimistic about its outcome: "We honestly feel this evidentiary hearing is going to show the world exactly the extent of this coverup."
But to a lot of people something seemed fishy. When Ray was arrested it was noted that he didn't look anything like the original FBI sketch of the killer. (Later versions of the sketch had been redrawn to match Ray's features.) Some police authorities said Ray could not have traveled as freely as he did, nor switched identities with such ease, without organized help. Ray himself maintained to anyone who would listen that he was the tool of a conspiracy. At his guilty plea hearing he tried to tell this to the court, but was stopped by the judge and by his own lawyer, Percy Foreman. A couple of weeks later, Ray tried to revoke his guilty plea, saying he had been pressured into it, but the court turned down this move
. Ray has since been claiming that a man he knew only as "Raoul" did the shooting while he was elsewhere. Last May Ray described for the first time what he did the day King was killed.
Who Is Raoul?
Ray said he met the man named "Raoul" in Canada in 1967, and that Raoul convinced him to join a gun-running team. Ray said the man had him buy the rifle that police discovered in the stairwell. He delivered it to Raoul and another man at the rooming house on April 4, 1968. They gave him $200 and instructed him to go to a movie. He drove to a gas station instead; on coming back, he found "the whole block was sealed off and police were all over the place." He did a U-turn and fled, realizing, he says, how he had been set up as the fall guy.
The MLK investigators contacted the Dallas cops photographed with the tramps and questioned them about the MLK alleged assassin.
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The earliest FBI sketch of the alleged MLK assassin looked almost exactly like one of the three tramps.
Raoul/smallest tramp
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6tX8ctS/Raol.jpg)
I think the jutting chin doesn't look very similar but the FBI sketch does look a lot like this guy?
(https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article12226988.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/James-Earl-Ray-convicted-for-the-murder-of-Dr-Martin-Luther-King-Washington-DC-USA-24-Jul-20.jpg)
JohnM
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I think the jutting chin doesn't look very similar but the FBI sketch does look a lot like this guy?
(https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article12226988.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/James-Earl-Ray-convicted-for-the-murder-of-Dr-Martin-Luther-King-Washington-DC-USA-24-Jul-20.jpg)
JohnM
Whatever, the FBI thought it was something odd, because they sent agents to Dallas to get to the bottom of just whom this guy 'is'.
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Whatever, the FBI thought it was something odd, because they sent agents to Dallas to get to the bottom of just whom this guy 'is'.
That's interesting and the claim that the FBI altered the original sketch is also suspicious, is there any official documentation or examples of the altered and unaltered sketches?
JohnM
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That's interesting and the claim that the FBI altered the original sketch is also suspicious, is there any official documentation or examples of the altered and unaltered sketches?
JohnM
I think I got these documents from Dennis Morrissette's website a long time ago.
The cops involved with investigating MLK's shooting went through the roll call of the three tramps interactions on 11/22/63. Starting with the photographer Bill Allen. They also contacted all the arresting officers, and the chain of command back at the stations. Marvin Wise has testified, in the future, at HSCA hearing interviews that he last knew the names of the three tramps in 1966 when he cleared out his locker and then disposed of the piece of paper the names were written on. But yet just two years later he didn't know them -- he couldn't remember a thing. An inability to identity these tramps runs right through Dallas. It seems almost willful that no one gives a crap about who these three individuals are. The head of the identities division at DPD stated he only looked up the booking jackets (and photos) of everyone arrested on the day of the assassination and did not find anyone that looked like the individual drawn in the first artists impression of the shooter of MLK. We know (now) the three tramps were not photographed or even interviewed. They were released without questioning immediately upon detention. It would be interesting to know if the head of DPD identities was asked to thoroughly investigate the names of the three tramps in the photos. Because DPD somehow managed to produce the three booking jackets in 1992 just before Oliver Stones JFK was released. Makes me wonder why there was no curiosity to discover these identities before.
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6Spd9Hw/Pictures-Tramps-06-0000.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrk65N49/Pictures-Tramps-06-0001.jpg)
Marvin Wise stated that the three tramps actually were just released up to 10 minutes after being detained by Decker.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tdjFpVG/WISE-AND-TRAMPS.jpg)
The three tramps were taken into Decker's possession and walked out through the door without ANY questioning. How is that not suspicious?
BTW the revised sketch of the alleged assassin of MLK looks much more like Earl Ray. They scrubbed the sketch of the three tramp looking individual.
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Vincent Bugliosi thought the RFK assassination was a conspiracy. Though i'm not sure why he reached that conclusion.
The evidence of more than one shooter in RFK’s murder is overwhelming.
The questions are, who was the other shooter (there are named suspects) and was Sirhan a Patsy?
I believe all three cases were potentially conspiracies but the evidence of conspiracy in RFK’s murder is the strongest…
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The three tramps were taken into Decker's possession and walked out through the door without ANY questioning. How is that not suspicious?
Sorry, all I see is one officer taking another officer's thought that the tramps had just been released. The tramps were taken to police headquarters but not released until, I think, Monday. The transfer (meaning the three were suddenly gone from the County Jail building) may have caused the officer to think the tramps had been released.
Who witnessed the three tramps "walked out through the door" of the County Jail? That's you adding on things.
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Sorry, all I see is one officer taking another officer's thought that the tramps had just been released. The tramps were taken to police headquarters but not released until, I think, Monday. The transfer (meaning the three were suddenly gone from the County Jail building) may have caused the officer to think the tramps had been released.
Who witnessed the three tramps "walked out through the door" of the County Jail? That's you adding on things.
I posted officer Wise's 1992 FBI statement. He clearly states the tramps (he escorted in the photos) were released without questioning. Yes it's up for debate just exactly how much time precisely they spent in Decker's. But Wise states 5 to 10 minutes, plus whatever time it took Decker to decide the three tramps are completely innocent and did not need any questioning on the day that JFK was assassinated.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tdjFpVG/WISE-AND-TRAMPS.jpg)
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I posted officer Wise's 1992 FBI statement. He clearly states the tramps (he escorted in the photos) were released without questioning.
Wise only says (30 years on) he was told by someone who thought the tramps were released. Neither officer said they saw the tramps "walked out through the door" nor does either one say the tramps "were released without questioning".
Yes it's up for debate just exactly how much time precisely they spent in Decker's. But Wise states 5 to 10 minutes, plus whatever time it took Decker to decide the three tramps are completely innocent and did not need any questioning on the day that JFK was assassinated.
Where does the Wise statement say that Decker "decided the three tramps are completely innocent"? You're pulling stuff out of yer as--ss.
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Wise only says (30 years on) he was told by someone who thought the tramps were released. Neither officer said they saw the tramps "walked out through the door" nor does either one say the tramps "were released without questioning".
Wise was told by a 'DEPUTY'. Not just 'SOMEONE', in fact ... a fellow cop.
If anyone is pulling stuff from their ass, it's you. And you seem to have more than enough room inside your gaping wide ass to fit the entire Warren Commission staff inside it.
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Wise was told by a 'DEPUTY'. Not just 'SOMEONE', in fact ... a fellow cop.
Why don't I be like a conspiracy buff? Prove the "deputy" was a deputy. Did Wise check his ID?
If anyone is pulling stuff from their ass, it's you.
What you've added to the Wise interview that's just not there ...
- "were released without questioning"
- "walked out through the door"
- "decided the three tramps are completely innocent"
- "did not need any questioning"
... (and it doesn't seem to bother you one iota that it was pointed out.)
And you seem to have more than enough room inside your gaping wide ass to fit the entire Warren Commission staff inside it.
You must really hate authority. Respecting the Commission (who, sure, made mistakes as did the agencies and police) doesn't mean one is surrendering their ability to think as a free man. Their assessment of the evidence and writing of the Report was very good work. I don't find as much on the CT side to have confidence in. The 1967 Thompson book was excellent; Anson and Marrs had good overviews. The Pat Speer site has good information. That's about it.
The authority that I find more distasteful comes in the form of an orange-tanned rotund Svengali-like figure.
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You must really hate authority. Respecting the Commission (who, sure, made mistakes as did the agencies and police) doesn't mean one is surrendering their ability to think as a free man. Their assessment of the evidence and writing of the Report was very good work. I don't find as much on the CT side to have confidence in.
I have NO DOUBT, NO DOUBT AT ALL, if the Warren Commission members were aware 3 suspects hiding in train carriages behind the knoll were at one point questioned to find out ''which one shot the president'' These suspects were seen by at least one eye witness running from the area behind the fence and onto the train. And these 3 suspects were then released, that day.
Well you are right about one thing. I generally added to Wise's words something that wasn't there. Because William Chambers, arresting officer, he recounted in his 1992 FBI interview that the tramps were questioned to ''find out which one shot the president'', and Chambers took part in a discussion to have the three tramps he arrested to be tested for gun powder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8BvFd3H/shot-the-president.jpg)
And Wise, like you say, 30 years later - when asked the correct line of questioning, he answered what many on the Warren Commission would have been surprised to hear ... that the three tramps were released. And we are still no wiser what their real names are.
I've shown, the characters that were put forward in 1992 as being the real three tramps were released ''two or three nights later''
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0cY2Sdq/doyle-released.jpg)
The arrest sheets state on the 24th.
Marvin Wise's own words.
Wise states the three tramps were released that day. The day they were apprehended. They spent no time in jail.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tdjFpVG/WISE-AND-TRAMPS.jpg)
So are you even curious? Jerry Organ? are you curious just who these three fellows are?
The Chauncey Holt character who claimed to be the older tramp said they were released the day of the assassination. They walked in, and out the doors of Decker's. He got one thing right. Of course, he could have read Marvin Wise 1992 FBI interview and got those details. But it's interesting why the Doyle character was pushed forwards to be one of the tramps but yet no one has really bothered to read Wise's interview and see that the three tramps he arrested were released that day. Some wacko that claimed to be one of the three tramps arrested has a better grip of the true facts.
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Why don't I be like a conspiracy buff? Prove the "deputy" was a deputy. Did Wise check his ID?
:D ;D :D
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