JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Chad Labarre on August 04, 2021, 10:12:43 PM
Title: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Chad Labarre on August 04, 2021, 10:12:43 PM
I think there is enough photographic evidence to strongly suggest that TWO different people were posing as a 'Babushka Lady' in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. In the image below, the two left images are of BL in the Muchmore and Bell films. The two right images are from photos by Jay Skaggs and William Allen. In the two right images there is a strap on the outside of the overcoat. There is no indication at all of an exterior strap in the two left images. Also, the BL in the two right images appears to be shorter and stockier, and the lower legs between the two groups appear to be different.
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Chad Labarre on August 06, 2021, 01:57:27 AM
the BL in the Muchmore and Bell images has the carry bag strap underneath the overcoat. the BL in the Skaggs and Allen photos has the carry bag strap on the outside of the overcoat.
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Chad Labarre on August 06, 2021, 02:07:47 AM
One BL_1 was present during the assassination, then some time after that BL_1 was replaced with BL_2.
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Chad Labarre on August 06, 2021, 02:14:07 AM
The Bell film may have actually captured the switch between BL_1 and BL_2. There is a break in the footage at ~49sec into the film. At ~48sec into the film we see BL_1. Then there is a break in the footage, then we see BL_2.
BL_2 is on far left of Bond 8 and BL_1 is center right in Bond 9. These photos are available at: projectjfk.com/shaw-legacy
Take note of the bystanders 1-5 in both photos. These two photos must have been taken within seconds of each other. These two photos prove, for all practicle purposes that BL_1 and BL_2 were in two different places in Dealey Plaza at the same time. They must have been two different people.
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 06, 2021, 04:18:26 AM
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/4~3.jpg) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) "No strap" in the Muchmore Film?
(https://jfkassassinationdocumentaries.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/tlb-43.jpg) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) "No strap" in Bell Film?
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Chad Labarre on August 07, 2021, 06:44:08 PM
'yes' to both of your questions.
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Chad Labarre on August 07, 2021, 06:55:20 PM
the image on the right clearly shows a strap across the back. additionally, the strap is cinching the overcoat to the left side of her rib cage area.
the image on the left has no indication of a strap across the back. not only that, but the left side of the overcoat is clearly hanging freely from this person's rib cage area: if the strap was on the outside of the over coat, it would not do that.
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Markus Ell on August 08, 2021, 11:02:59 AM
Hello Chad Labarre,
tried to invert the image with a Muchmore frame and change the color intensity a bit.
I think that at least the lower part of the bag strap can be seen a little better. I think that recognizing the upper part is made considerably more difficult by the shadow cast and the poor image quality.
With Nix, on the other hand, you can see the strap better:
I don't think there is much to add to the posts by Jerry Organ and Duncan McRae. The image quality was unfortunately weaker at the time and I believe that Bell also filmed from a slightly greater distance. Still, one has to strongly assume that the Babushka Lady is the same person in Muchmore, Bell, Skaggs, Bond and Allen.
Many greetings
PS.
I was wrong about my last post. The Nix film of course also includes Camera Car # 3, probably the cameraman on the car was Malcolm Couch. I mistakenly thought that he drove past the Babushka Lady's location a little earlier.
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Steve Barber on August 08, 2021, 04:19:50 PM
Please tell us why two people would be "posing as a "Babushka Lady"?
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 08, 2021, 06:15:08 PM
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Chad Labarre on August 08, 2021, 08:01:28 PM
To answer the question of why there would be two BL's, let's first consider the nature of JFK's fatal head wound. To do this I will be referring to an article written by Dr. Gary Aguilar titled:
JOHN F. KENNEDY'S FATAL WOUNDS: THE WITNESSES AND THE INTERPRETATIONS FROM 1963 TO THE PRESENT
found at the address: assassinationweb.com/ag6.htm
There are three main things I want to emphasize from this article (focusing on the Parkland witnesses):
1) vast majority of Parkland witnesses recalled seeing a large gaping wound on the right, rear side of JFK's head:
"...twenty of twenty-two Parkland witnesses...first, unrehearsed, and specific recollection of the head wound, either in writing, verbally, or both, placed a major skull defect unambiguously posteriorly on the right."
2) vast majority of Parkland witnesses did NOT recall seeing an entry wound somewhere on the front of the head which could account for the large, gaping wound on the back of the head. Those few that did recall seeing such a wound have been dismissed, according to Dr. Aguilar:
"It must be mentioned that there were those at Parkland who described a left temporal entry: Robert McClelland, MD, Marion Jenkins, MD (WC--V6:48) and Father Oscar Huber all mentioned such a wound.(BE:46, 331) This location for a wound has been abandoned by all: the Warren Commission loyalists by arguing that Oswald was firing from the school book depository, while some Warren Commission critics rejected it for conflicting with a grassy knoll origin and left-rear head thrust."
3) Four separate Parkland doctors used terms such as 'tangential', 'tangentially', 'avulsive', and 'avulsion' to describe the head wound on right, rear side:
Professor and Director of Neurological Surgery at Parkland, Dr. Kemp Clark: "The head wound…could have been a tangential wound, as it was simply a large, gaping loss of tissue."
Anesthesiologist at Parkland, Dr. Gene Aiken: "I assume the right occipitalparietal region was the exit, so to speak, that he had probably been hit on the other side of the head, or at least tangentially in the back of the head..."
Dr. Charles James Carrico: "There seemed to be a 4 to 5 cm. area of avulsion of the scalp and the skull was fragmented and bleeding cerebral and cerebellar tissue."
Dr. Malcolm Perry: "...I noted a large avulsive wound of the right parietal occipital area, in which both scalp and portions of skull were absent, and there was severe laceration of underlying brain tissue..."
In medical terms an avulsion is an injury caused by the tearing away of a body part.
Taking these facts together, we come to the following scenario: the assassin's bullet tangentially impacted the right, rear side of JFK's head, which tore out (avulsed) a portion of his skull in this area.
Now, who was behind and to the left of JFK and had a clear line of sight to the right, rear area of his head? (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51366222925_31f7258535_z.jpg)
I know some will laugh at me, but I think, in all good faith, we should seriously consider the following scenario:
BL_1, the BL present when JFK was killed, was really an assassin in drag - dressed up as a frumpy old woman. BL_1 killed JFK.
BL_2, an actual 'woman with a camera', took the place of BL_1 soon after JFK was killed. This serves to reinforce the initial impression we get from looking at BL_1, and serves to throw us off the scent. We say to ourselves something like: 'The babushka lady was just a woman with a camera, and while it would be interesting to know who she was and what she filmed, it's not really crucial to find these things out' And then we keep scrutinizing the 'grassy knoll' for something - anything.
This tactic allows the conspirators to place a shooter, hiding in plain sight, in close proximity to JFK AND behind him. Being behind JFK is important, because the plan is to pin the blame on Oswald, who was supposed to be shooting at JFK from behind.
Now, obviously, an avulsion on the right, rear side of JFK's head was not the desired outcome. But look at the Muchmore frame above: JFK is hunched over and Jackie is leaning toward him. This give BL_1 a smaller target to work with. He wants to hit JFK in the back of the head, but he absolutely must avoid hitting Jackie - or the 'lone gunman' story is toast. So BL_1 was forced to aim further off center of JFK's head, which resulted in the bullet impacting tangentially.
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Robert Reeves on August 08, 2021, 11:32:31 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCjm13FF/camera-gun.jpg)
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Steve Barber on August 09, 2021, 04:12:15 PM
Skull fragment found that afternoon by a Mr. David Burris was found several yards away from the limousine, to southwest of where the limousine was located at the time of the fatal shot, in the grass on the nothern infield lawn. Not to mention the location of the large skull fragment discovered by Billy Harper, also found on the northernmost infield lawn. Skull fragments from the head explosion would have landed in the direction of the knoll had there been a shot fired that matches your scenario. The Zapruder, Nix and Muchmore all show the same things. Skull fragments flying off the top of the head in a southeast direction, only later to be found by Harper and Burris.
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Steve Barber on August 09, 2021, 04:22:04 PM
This is a blowup the photograph indicating where Burris said he found the skull fragments.[/img](https://i.imgur.com/iTVrzub.jpg)
This is the back of the photograph with inscription detailing where Burris found the skull fragment.
(https://i.imgur.com/mG91qB1.jpg)
This is the full photograph showing the skull fragment location(https://i.imgur.com/pTS6Cqt.jpg)
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Markus Ell on August 09, 2021, 04:48:40 PM
Hello Chad Labarre,
sorry, but I cannot imagine the Babushka Lady as a possible shooter. Even if she had used a pistol disguised as a camera (if there was anything like it at the time) with a silencer. Silencers can reduce the volume of the shot (as far as I know, often by around 30 to 35 decibels, but I'm not an expert here), but in my opinion the shot would still be clearly audible. Commercially available pistols have a volume of around 90 or more decibels, with a peel damper still around 60 decibels.
The danger of being discovered quickly would have been very high, as Charles Brehm and his son should have noticed that the shot was fired directly behind them.
Perhaps even the witnesses Moorman, Hill and possibly Foster could have identified the location of the shooting. I also believe that the police escort that followed the President on a motorcycle made the Babushka Lady's shot even more difficult.
Another problem arises from the fact that the second Babushka Lady should have been pretty close to the crime scene, which in my opinion does not match what can be seen on the Bronson film or the Bronson photo (he took shortly before the fatal shot).
from Bronson Film: (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_20180925-185325.JPG) (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_20180925-185249.JPG)
Unfortunately, I can't see anyone in these photos who looks like the Babushka Lady. Where should the alleged second Babushka Lady suddenly come from?
In Zapruder, Hughes, Bell and the other films, too, there is no indication that another person dressed almost exactly like the Babushka Lady.
The coat on the Allen photos matches the coat on Bell and Muchmore very well. Thanks to a photo by Skaggs, we know that the color of the Allen Babushka Lady's headscarf (the Babushka Lady wears exactly the same headscarf here) is roughly the same color as, for example, Muchmore, Bronson, Nix and Bell (there are slight color deviations of course due to different brightness and contrast settings as well as manufacturer-specific color formats available). The bag also matches very well.
Therefore, one can only draw the conclusion that there was actually only one Babushka Lady.
Coats and headscarves were probably not uncommon items of clothing at that time, so that some women wore them on that day. Unfortunately, this makes it easier to ascribe the Babushka Lady identity to a person even though they are not.
Many greetings
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Chad Labarre on August 09, 2021, 07:48:53 PM
Markus-
You bring up several valid objections against my argument, and I'd like to respond to them:
1) You state that Brehm, Hill and Moorman would have heard the shots fired from BL_1. I don't disagree with that statement. Here's the thing: I am saying that BL_1 was an assassin - if that's true, the conspiracy plan MUST have included some support and/or cover for BL_1. It would have been very shortsighted to simply place a gunman out in the open all by himself with no further consideration. With that being said, I think that Brehm, Hill and Moorman were assets for the conspirators. Consider the following:
a) Look at the Z-film. Brehm is almost perfectly placed to mask BL_1 from view - from the perspective of the Z-camera. He is also blocking BL_1 from being seen by anybody in the street. Personally, I am inclined to think that the SS agents behind JFK were all in on the plot. But if it was the case one or more of them were not, then Brehm would have shielded BL_1 from being seen by them.
Furthermore, watch the Z-film and note that Brehm and his son were clapping their hands. This would serve as sonic camouflage to cover the sounds of the (silenced) firearm from BL_1.
Also, people (such as William Newman) have reported gunshot sounds coming from the grassy knoll. I think the conspirators placed people there to fire blanks, which would have distracted and confused bystanders from focusing on BL_1 as he fires his weapon.
b) Keep in mind that dozens of witnesses have reported that JFK's limo came to a stop. Where did it come to a stop? According to statements by William Newman, who was on the north side of Elm Street directly across from Jean Hill, the limo came to a stop right in front of him, and that's where the fatal head shot occurred. Here is a statement from longtime assassination researcher David Lifton (from 'The Great Zapruder Film Hoax'. pg 424):
In November, 1971, I went to Dallas for the first time and had tape recorded interviews [with] Bill and Gayle Newman, who were directly to Kennedy's right when he was struck in the head, and who insisted that the car came to a momentary halt, right in front of them.
In other words, the fatal head shot occurred at a more easterly location on Elm Street than that shown in the Z-film (Z-film was edited to mask the limo stop - see 'The Great Zapruder Film Hoax'). When you shift the foreground (JFK's limo and the DPD motorcycle officers) of the head shot frame (z313) further east, it is apparent that BL_1 would have had a clear line of sight to the back of JFK's head.
c) Jean Hill, dressed up to look like a giant stop sign, would have served as a marker, obvious to the limo driver and BL_1. The limo driver brings JFK to a stop right along side Jean Hill, where BL_1 will be waiting to administer the kill shot.
d) Mary Moorman's role was to have provided photographic 'evidence' to support the Z-film. I go into much greater detail on this point in an ebook I wrote on the subject - a free pdf download at aninspiredbitoftreason.wordpress.com/.
2) You mention that BL_2 must have been close by somewhere - but you are unable to locate her in any photos. I can't locate her either, and believe me, I've tried. How about this scenario: BL_2 was in a vehicle some distance behind the JFK motorcade. Very soon after the assassination, the vehicle pulls up to the curb on Elm Street and lets BL_2 out, and BL_1 simply starts walking away (as I demonstrate with my analysis of the Bond 8 and 9 photos earlier in this post). Such a transfer would have taken 15-20 seconds, tops. And, in the chaotic aftermath of the shooting, who would have noticed?
3) You call into question my fundamental premise that there were two different BL's: one present during JFK's murder, and a replacement soon afterwards. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. Earlier in this post I put forth all the evidence I was able to muster in support of my argument. I have nothing more to add on this point. If I did, I would post it here. I just want say that I am adamant that BL_1 and BL_2 were two different people. If I didn't really believe that, I wouldn't be writing these words...
At any rate, I appreciate your thoughtful objections. It is only through back and forth discussions such as this that we can come to some understanding of what happened in Dealey Plaza that day. Clearly we can't rely on 'our' institutions (media, law enforcement, judicial, etc.) to tell us the truth - it's up to us to dig for it...
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Markus Ell on August 12, 2021, 01:28:22 PM
Hello Chad Labarre,
I don't know Charles Brehm, Jean Hill, or Marie Muchmore well enough to be able to judge whether they might have been willing to help in this horrific act.
In the case of Charles Brehm, this would be particularly severe, as he expected his 5-year-old son Joey to witness the cruel act with his own eyes. I definitely do not rate Charles Brehm as radical, especially since he, like Hill and Moorman, looked very upset and traumatized after the crime. With the best will in the world, I can't imagine it was acted (although my impressions don't really invalidate your scenario either). It should also be borne in mind that the more people are involved in an act of this magnitude, the risk of non-secrecy increases immensely.
On their point that the second babushka was in a car and exchanged the first BL shortly after the assassination:
If I'm not mistaken (I often have problems assigning a point in time to the pictures), the fourth Wilma Bond photo should roughly correspond to the point in time when a policeman (I think Hargis) in the Bell film runs up to Babushka Lady ("BL 1").
Bond 4 also features one or even two people with cameras filming the Newman family (Doris Mumford lying next to them, I believe), which I suspect is Dave Wiegman and maybe Thomas Atkins (as I said I'm very unsure about that, on Bell they are not visible, maybe outof view area ?). But that would mean that Camera Car 1 must have already passed the babushka lady.
We should see "BL 2" on the Nix-Film, because the bag strap can be seen quite well here. But that should also mean that "BL 2" can also be seen in the couch film (camera car 3). This results in a very short period of time because, according to the Sixth Floor Museum Dallas, the scene with the Babushka Lady in the Nix film was probably recorded a little more than 30 seconds after the fatal shot. On couch you see "BL 2" a little earlier. Couldn't see a car on the couch, which would have allowed the "BL 2" to get out beforehand, which makes the time span quite short. So far, I have not been able to find a car on various photos that would have made this possible for the BL 2 (possible photos here might be of Phil Willis or Jim Towner).
I also don't assume that a car would have squeezed in during the motorcade. Therefore I am still convinced that there was only one Babushka Lady.
Some are of the opinion that the Babushka Lady was very much involved in the assassination, not as a shooter, but as a kind of signal generator, since a light source appears on the Zapruder film (interestingly only in the qualitatively improved versions). I have no idea whether this is really true.
My arguments are certainly not the most well-founded either, but they reflect my previous impressions and views.
Many greetings
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Chad Labarre on August 13, 2021, 10:34:05 PM
Markus- You bring up many good points. My reply as far as the lack of photographic evidence is this: I think we can all agree that the photographic record of the JFK assassination has been meddled with, and not just the Z-film. If my BL theory is correct, then one of the major things the conspirators would be on the lookout for would be any and all photographic images which would indicate that there were TWO Babushka Ladies, and if found, these images would have to be edited or destroyed. Take, for example, my analysis of the Bell film, where there appeared to be a break in the footage between the last time we see BL_1 and the first time we see BL_2. Also, look at my images of the two Bond photos. The green line in Bond9 is the extreme right hand edge of Bond8. BL_1 is right at that line, which means that Bond8 may have actually captured BOTH BL_1 and BL_2 - and the conspirators had the area containing BL_1 cropped out.
I tend to look at it this way: There may not be any obvious photographic evidence proving a BL switch occurred, but the subtle yet detectable physical differences between BL_1 and BL_2 dictate that at some time soon after the assassination, a switch did in fact take place. It all comes down to whether or not you believe that BL_1 and BL_2 were two different people - as I do.
As for Brehm, well, some people would do almost anything - for the right price. I should say that I have no hard evidence Brehm, Hill and Moorman were in on the plot. This assertion is based (almost) solely on my belief that BL_1 was an assassin. Put yourself into the shoes of the conspirators: you can't just say the your assassin: "Hey, put on this dress, overcoat and headscarf, then go stand out in the open on the South side of Elm street and take some shots at JFK as he rides by" That's leaving too much to chance.
By the way, the BL is visible in 22 of the 406 Zapruder frames, yet there is not one single clear image of the BL. Coincidence? If BL_1 was indeed a 'man with a gun', then images of BL_1 would have needed quite a bit of editorial attention - as far as the Zapruder film is concerned...
Regards, Chad
Title: Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
Post by: Michael Christopher on November 17, 2021, 12:13:22 AM
You're comparing photos where no face is seen (I understand why, don't worry about that) which seems a waste of time.
The BL fascinates me and I would love to know who she really was but yeah, this isn't a credible line of investigation, as far as I am concerned. Unless you can provide two face shots of clearly different women, then it's not even worth the time.