JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Patrick Jackson on July 02, 2021, 10:52:51 PM
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Sorry if discussed already but I am trying to understand the following:
If there was a conspiracy and Oswald was a patsy had nothing to do with assassination and if the shots came from the front, WHO placed the gun to be found on the sixth floor? There are statements that one TSBD employee was showing his Mauser the day earlier.
What do the conspiracy theorists think on who placed the gun between boxes on sixth floor?
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Sorry if discussed already but I am trying to understand the following:
If there was a conspiracy and Oswald was a patsy had nothing to do with assassination and if the shots came from the front, WHO placed the gun to be found on the sixth floor? There are statements that one TSBD employee was showing his Mauser the day earlier.
What do the conspiracy theorists think on who placed the gun between boxes on sixth floor?
Hi Patrick, First off There definitely was a conspiracy...and Lee Oswald was duped into being the scapegoat. ( He knew he was playing with TNT, but his FBI handler assured him that the FBI had everything under control.) It's possible and probable that Lee Oswald was the person who CAREFULLY HID the carcano BENEATH the pallet of books.... He thought the scheme was a plan to MAKE IT APPEAR as if he had fired a shot at JFK The carcano was NOT "placed " BETWEEN" boxes of books .....The photos that show the rifle between boxes are DPD created FAKES.
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Sorry if discussed already but I am trying to understand the following:
If there was a conspiracy and Oswald was a patsy had nothing to do with assassination and if the shots came from the front, WHO placed the gun to be found on the sixth floor? There are statements that one TSBD employee was showing his Mauser the day earlier.
What do the conspiracy theorists think on who placed the gun between boxes on sixth floor?
You are asking CTers to apply logic to the case? Good luck. The fantasy conspirators framed Oswald by shooting JFK from a different location and with a different rifle than the one left in the TSBD to frame Oswald. What a plan!
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You are asking CTers to apply logic to the case? Good luck. The fantasy conspirators framed Oswald by shooting JFK from a different location and with a different rifle than the one left in the TSBD to frame Oswald. What a plan!
True, asking CTers who placed the rifle on the sixth floor but this does not mean I am a LNer. Some CTers believe shot came from the Grassy knoll and many books are written about this theory but where did the rifle came from? Warren Caster testified that he bought two rifles, one of which was Mauser and that on 11/22/63 both were at his home but is there any chance his Mauser was not at home but on the sixth floor? Caster testified only during May 1964. I strongly believe that rifle found on sixth floor was Casters Mauser.
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(https://i.imgur.com/uYQPGp9.jpg)
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True, asking CTers who placed the rifle on the sixth floor but this does not mean I am a LNer. Some CTers believe shot came from the Grassy knoll and many books are written about this theory but where did the rifle came from? Warren Caster testified that he bought two rifles, one of which was Mauser and that on 11/22/63 both were at his home but is there any chance his Mauser was not at home but on the sixth floor? Caster testified only during May 1964. I strongly believe that rifle found on sixth floor was Casters Mauser.
That would mean you think Caster was involved in the plot since he never set the record straight. And what kind of narrative would explain Caster bringing his rifles to the TSBD, showing them around to folks, and then one of his rifles magically appearing on the 6th floor to be covered up by the DPD and replaced with an entirely different rifle? Are you suggesting that the conspirators used his rifle to kill JFK? Why not apply the logic of your OP to this issue? Why would the conspirators try to frame Oswald with the MC rifle but use an entirely different rifle to kill JFK if they had control over both rifles? Why not just use the MC rifle linked to Oswald to avoid a lot of complications in the frame up?
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You are asking CTers to apply logic to the case? Good luck. The fantasy conspirators framed Oswald by shooting JFK from a different location and with a different rifle than the one left in the TSBD to frame Oswald. What a plan!
"...apply logic"?
It has never happened in the annals of crime that a weapon was planted and that someone was framed for a homicide? ???
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"...apply logic"?
It has never happened in the annals of crime that a weapon was planted and that someone was framed for a homicide? ???
LOL. You usually would plant the weapon used to commit the crime for obvious reasons. Whew.
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LOL. You usually would plant the weapon used to commit the crime for obvious reasons. Whew.
Maybe... usually. But if it didn't matter [and in this case why should it?] then why worry about it?
Henry Wade told the public that the rifle that killed Kennedy belonged to Oswald that assassination evening before anything was ever traced or tested. So how did he know?
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Maybe... usually. But if it didn't matter [and in this case why should it?] then why worry about it?
Henry Wade told the public that the rifle that killed Kennedy belonged to Oswald that assassination evening before anything was ever traced or tested. So how did he know?
Henry Wade told the public that the rifle that killed Kennedy belonged to Oswald that assassination evening before anything was ever traced or tested. So how did he know?
Good Question!.... Wade was deeply involved in the Coup. He immediately started propagating lies to frame Lee Oswald.
He boldly told reporters that Lee Oswald's prints had been found on the rifle....When in fact NO identifiable prints had been found on the rifle, and this lie by Henry Wade, created the necessity for the invention of DPD Lt J.C. Day claiming that he'd found Lee's prints on " THE UNDERSIDE OF THE BARREL NEAR THE END OF THE FOREGRIP , ON RIFLE C2766 "
Liar Day never disassembled the rifle.... and he never found any prints of any kind on the barrel of that carcano.
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B E F O R E: THE HONORABLE EDWARD A.
HAGGERTY, JR., JUDGE, SECTION "C"
MRS. RUTH HYDE PAINE, a witness called by and on behalf of the Defense, having been first duly affirmed, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: Now, did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald in possession of a gun or rifle, Mrs. Paine?
A: No, I didn't, I didn't know he had a gun.
Q: Did you know of any gun or rifle that he had stored in the garage or carport of your home in Dallas, in Irving?
A: No, I did not, not until the afternoon after the assassination.
Q: Did you ever see any guns stored on your premises?
A: No, nor would I have wanted it there had I known. We had very young children, I wouldn't have wanted a gun on the premises at all.
Q: Do you recall whether or not any of these belongings were wrapped in a blanket?
A: Yes, there was a blanket on the floor.
Q: On the floor?
A: When I recall seeing the blanket, it was on the floor.
Q: And when was that that you saw the blanket on the floor?
A: It was Friday afternoon, November 22.
Q: And what was your occasion for going to the garage at that time?
A: Well, officers had arrived and said they had Lee Oswald in custody for shooting an officer, and asked if they could come in, and --
Q: Let me caution you this is hearsay you are going into, what these officers said.
Hearsay? For crying out loud! She was right there......
A: Shall I describe what they did?
Q: Yes.
A: O.K. They came in, and I indicated that most of the Oswald's possessions were either in the bedroom or in the garage, and we went into the garage, and a question arose as to whether Oswald had had a weapon of any sort. *Foolishly I said no, but I then translated the question to Marina, and she said she knew him to have a rifle and indicated the blanket roll on the floor, and then I translated what she indicated to me, and the officer picked up the roll in the middle and hung it over his arm.
Q: Was there anything in the blanket roll?
A: It looked pretty empty. He did not open it.
Q: Do you recall, Mrs. Paine, having viewed that particular blanket roll **on the night before?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Do you recall having seen that blanket roll in your garage at any time after you brought Marina, that is, back from New Orleans?
A: I don't have a specific recollection of that.
*Why should Ruthie feel 'foolish' if she didn't know anything? **'On the night before'? Why ask that?
Q: Now, Mrs. Paine, did you at any time ever see Lee Harvey Oswald with a gun or rifle?
A: No, I did not.
MR. DYMOND: That is all.
Mrs Paine was not aware of anything that she could have gone out and tripped over at any given time....how rich.
The concept that Marina knew that there was a rifle out in the garage laying on the floor [who keeps a rifle like that?] and didn't confide in Ruth to store it safely at least...defies the imagination.
The Warren worshipers won't read this post because like Ruth Paine ...ignorance is bliss.
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"Mrs Paine was not aware of anything that she could have gone out and tripped over at any given time....how rich.
The concept that Marina knew that there was a rifle out in the garage laying on the floor [who keeps a rifle like that?] and didn't confide in Ruth to store it safely at least...defies the imagination.
The Warren worshipers won't read this post because like Ruth Paine ...ignorance is bliss."
If ignorance is bliss you must be very, very happy.
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B E F O R E: THE HONORABLE EDWARD A.
HAGGERTY, JR., JUDGE, SECTION "C"
MRS. RUTH HYDE PAINE, a witness called by and on behalf of the Defense, having been first duly affirmed, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DYMOND:
Hearsay? For crying out loud! She was right there......
A: Well, officers had arrived and said they had Lee Oswald in
custody for shooting an officer, and asked if they could come
in, and --
Q: Let me caution you this is hearsay you are going into, what
these officers said.
It's hearsay when she's claiming they said something to her. FBI agents back then used no recorders and would make written notes, which they later turned into reports and sometimes affidavits to be signed. Those documents are allowed in court; an agent on the stand recalling something additionally said to him would be hearsay, as it's not contemporaneous. Like when Trump said this in 2015:
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"Hey, I watched when the World Trade Center came tumbling down.
And I watched in Jersey City, New Jersey, where thousands and
thousands of people were cheering as that building was coming down.
Thousands of people were cheering. So something’s going on.
We’ve got to find out what it is."
The Warren worshipers won't read this post because like Ruth Paine ...ignorance is bliss.
(https://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/cuckoo-clock-gif-8.gif)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
"Warren worshippers? LOL! You fooler. Like LNers here are always citing long-winded passages from the Warren Report.
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... you must be very, very happy.
I see that you probably just read the Warren worshiper part at the bottom of the post and it hurt your feelings or something. Actually I feel sorry for someone like you that can't resist the chance to be hateful because that's all you have to offer.
Like LNers here are always citing long-winded passages from the Warren Report.
No...like you guys that bite off both ends of a crap are satisfied with ...one guy did it end of story... short winded version.
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Maybe... usually. But if it didn't matter [and in this case why should it?] then why worry about it?
Henry Wade told the public that the rifle that killed Kennedy belonged to Oswald that assassination evening before anything was ever traced or tested. So how did he know?
Spin us a narrative that explains your fantasy conspirators leaving a Mauser in the TSBD but linking Oswald and the assassination to an entirely different rifle? You don't see what is to worry about leaving a second rifle at the crime scene that would expose a conspiracy? This is a very simple one. The rifle was initially misidentified as a "Mauser." It was a misstatement at a very early stage of the investigation repeated by others. Nothing more or less. Those that found the rifle later confirmed it was the same one linked to Oswald.
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Spin us a narrative that explains your fantasy conspirators....
That's just it. I don't "spin narratives". I am not a 'conspiracy theorist'. I just pick apart the narratives that were spun by the authorities and the media about there being one guy who supposedly hunkered behind some boxes with this dubious rifle waiting for a presidential parade.
According to her testimony before the Commission... Ruth Paine felt sure that Oswald did not pack a rifle when she dropped him off at bus station to New Orleans. When she went to get Marina from New Orleans she felt sure they did not pack nor unpack [when they got back to Irving] any weapon of any kind.
Desperate to get Mrs Paine to finger Oswald for some kind of rifle play.........
Mr. JENNER - *I will broaden my question. Up to--now up to, and not including, up to November 22, 1963, had there ever been any discussion between you and Lee Harvey Oswald or between you and Marina or any discussion in the Presence of either of them by anybody, including yourself, about the use of a firearm by Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. Marina told me that he had been hunting in the Soviet Union.
Mr. JENNER - Now, please, to the best of your recollection when did that occur? ...
[would that not have been when they lived in the USSR?]
Mr. JENNER - I wish you would elaborate on that.
Mrs. PAINE - I wish I wouldn't guess, I know.
Mr. JENNER - Did she say that Lee Harvey Oswald had some kind of a firearm in Russia?
So who cares that Oswald went hunting in Russia? Does that prove anything? And if Marina didn't tag along...it was all hearsay anyway. Albert Jenner--- fishing rather than hunting....*"broadens his question" :-\
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That's just it. I don't "spin narratives". I am not a 'conspiracy theorist'. I just pick apart the narratives that were spun by the authorities and the media about there being one guy who supposedly hunkered behind some boxes with this dubious rifle waiting for a presidential parade.
The reason you don't have a theory of your own is because you're neither knowledgeable nor smart enough to form one. As for claiming you're not a CT, well,...that's pure BS! If you believe a "narrative" was "spun by the authorities and the media" then, by definition, you believe in a conspiracy and therefore are a conspiracy theorist. Got it now? See how it works?
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That's just it. I don't "spin narratives". I am not a 'conspiracy theorist'. I just pick apart the narratives that were spun by the authorities and the media about there being one guy who supposedly hunkered behind some boxes with this dubious rifle waiting for a presidential parade.
According to her testimony before the Commission... Ruth Paine felt sure that Oswald did not pack a rifle when she dropped him off at bus station to New Orleans. When she went to get Marina from New Orleans she felt sure they did not pack nor unpack [when they got back to Irving] any weapon of any kind.
Desperate to get Mrs Paine to finger Oswald for some kind of rifle play.........So who cares that Oswald went hunting in Russia? Does that prove anything? And if Marina didn't tag along...it was all hearsay anyway. Albert Jenner--- fishing rather than hunting....*"broadens his question" :-\
One test for the validity of a theory is whether it makes any sense. Leaving a Mauser in the TSBD makes no apparent sense from the perspective of any conspiracy. There would be no apparent reason for the fantasy conspirators to leave a rifle at the crime scene that could not be associated with Oswald and risk detection. If they used the Mauser to commit the assassination, then they would have linked Oswald to the Mauser and not bothered with the MC. Two rifles make no sense. What does make sense is that someone initially misidentified the MC rifle as a Mauser and others repeated that until the rifle was positively identified. A simple mistake.
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When you say conspiracy theorists, do you mean the people who know for a fact that Oswald didn't do it, or do you mean the people who think Oswald did it. Because to believe Oswald took 3 shots in 8.31 seconds with an "UNUSABLE" rifle (see Warren Commission Hearings, vol 3, pages 405, 443, 449 and 451), then ran 100 feet through obstacles, carefully hid the gun, then ran down 5 flights of stairs (125ft) at top speed, another 15 feet to the 2nd floor break room,and ran into officer Baker without showing any signs of heavy breathing, all in less than 1 minute 30 seconds, and without acquiring even a single spec of gunpowder residue on his cheeks... well that should tell you who the real conspiracy theorists are. Because not only is that fantasy, it's just plain dumb.
Now when you talk about the rifle, which rifle do you mean? The one with altered serial numbers or the one with fabricated serial numbers? Because there are in fact 2 rifles with the same serial number (which alone proves a conspiracy). And the one which was altered was originally C-2763, before someone altered the last digit (3) to reflect a 6.
That's not a theory or an opinion, because unlike the real conspiracy theorists it can be backed up with actual evidence. Notice the fonts aren't even the same.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Zdya8Ju3KaRTB6gp6
Now when you ask who could have placed a rifle in the TSBD, there's a few options to choose from.
There's this agent who was photographed exiting the TSBD with a Remington 8 rifle.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/RuhrLEGdJwZTuRuf6
Then you have this agent who looked like he was trying to plant the rifle that he tried to hide behind his back when he turned around and noticed the person with a camera standing there.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/V8NDkswX1mvrokxV8
It could have been agent Hosty or Bookhout. It could have been any one of the crooked lying DPD cops that were there. It could have been planted before the shooting by any number of people. Even the person who brought the Mauser that officer Craig saw.
Or maybe it was the cop and agent that tried to lie by claiming they found Oswald's wallet at the Tippet murder scene? Or the cop who planted the revolver on Oswald when he arrested him at the theater, and said he identified Oswald by checking his wallet, which was around the same time the other 2 liars claimed they found Oswald's wallet.
Or maybe it was the person who forged this paperwork for the rifle.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/bupnfNjySGddNjb99
Or even whomever planted this pristine bullet at Parkland hospital?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/GbkTFHuzbskDCA6i9
Or how about whomever forged this photo, which I ran through a digital forensic program that can detect even the smallest alterations, and which happened to detect alterations to the head area only?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/fpuMSkoDQtgBGGTB7
I mean really, it could have been any number of the lying ass crooked police & fbi agents that were clearly lying and working hard to fabricate and plant evidence. Something that any researcher worth his salt should know. Although I can't imagine why they would need to frame him, seeing how Oswald was guilty, right? Or at least according to the real conspiracy theorists.
But don't mind me and my evidence to back up my claims. Ask the real conspiracy theorists where all their evidence is...evidence that wasn't fabricated fabricated or forged that is.
Real evidence like the Army marksmen who tested the 6th floor rifle and deemed it UNUSABLE. Or the forensic team that conducted the Paraffin tests that Oswald past, proving he hadn't fired any rifles that day, and which the fbi tried to hide for 2 decades. Gee...I can't imagine why they wanted to hide that evidence, can you? 8)
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The reason you don't have a theory of your own is because you're neither knowledgeable nor smart enough to form one. As for claiming you're not a CT, well,...that's pure BS! If you believe a "narrative" was "spun by the authorities and the media" then, by definition, you believe in a conspiracy and therefore are a conspiracy theorist. Got it now? See how it works?
Whatever you say...you are a legend in your own mind [and that is no theory]
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One test for the validity of a theory is whether it makes any sense. Leaving a Mauser in the TSBD makes no apparent sense from the perspective of any conspiracy. There would be no apparent reason for the fantasy conspirators to leave a rifle at the crime scene that could not be associated with Oswald and risk detection. If they used the Mauser to commit the assassination, then they would have linked Oswald to the Mauser and not bothered with the MC. Two rifles make no sense. What does make sense is that someone initially misidentified the MC rifle as a Mauser and others repeated that until the rifle was positively identified. A simple mistake.
Where did I mention "Mauser"?
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What is a cover-up? It is is utilized when any other alternative is an embarrassment to the powers that be.
'It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.' [attributed to Mark Twain]
“It is easier to believe a lie that one has heard a thousand times than to believe a fact that one has never heard before.”― Robert Lynd
The Warren Report was a cover-up...and that is no theory.
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The reason you don't have a theory of your own is because you're neither knowledgeable nor smart enough to form one.
Anybody can "form a theory". Demonstrating that it's actually true is the problem.
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One test for the validity of a theory is whether it makes any sense. Leaving a Mauser in the TSBD makes no apparent sense from the perspective of any conspiracy.
Only in Strawman "Smith"-land where it's either "Oswald did it", or a vast conspiracy pre-planned everything that happened.
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Where did I mention "Mauser"?
Patrick suggested that Caster's Mauser was planted in the TSBD and when I questioned the logic of that claim you interjected that weapons have been planted at crime scenes. A nonsensical point since while weapons can be planted to frame someone for a crime there would be absolutely no point in planting a weapon that would not link the suspect to the crime. But you were clearly referencing the Mauser since that was the only rifle being discussed. But instead of playing coy are you agreeing that no Mauser was planted, another weapon was planted or what?
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Patrick suggested that Caster's Mauser was planted in the TSBD and when I questioned the logic of that claim you interjected that weapons have been planted at crime scenes. A nonsensical point since while weapons can be planted to frame someone for a crime there would be absolutely no point in planting a weapon that would not link the suspect to the crime. But you were clearly referencing the Mauser since that was the only rifle being discussed. But instead of playing coy are you agreeing that no Mauser was planted, another weapon was planted or what?
He's pretty hard to catch, Richard.
(https://i.gifer.com/SSqC.gif)
Freeman supports pretty-much every CT claim, but purports to be "not a CT". He's in some kind of "safe orbit", beyond the boundaries of forthrightness
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I had this theory Oswald may have removed his rifle from the Paines garage in Oct/63 , hence the note written by Mrs Paine on her calendar about a rifle in the Oct block.(She claims “mistake” but you gotta wonder)
Problem with my theory is why the conspirators after successfully getting Oswald away from his boarding house for 18 hrs, ( fake message on Thursday afternoon about Marina wishing to reconcile)and able to steal his rifle possibly, did not take time to test fire the rifle, nor check out the scope and zero the rifle at range of 100 yds. in the 18 hour period of time the rifle is in their possession?
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The reason you don't have a theory of your own is because you're neither knowledgeable nor smart enough to form one.
It's neither knowledgeable nor smart to form a "theory" on insufficient evidence.
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I had this theory Oswald may have removed his rifle from the Paines garage in Oct/63 , hence the note written by Mrs Paine on her calendar about a rifle in the Oct block.(She claims “mistake” but you gotta wonder)
Problem with my theory is why the conspirators after successfully getting Oswald away from his boarding house for 18 hrs, ( fake message on Thursday afternoon about Marina wishing to reconcile)and able to steal his rifle possibly, did not take time to test fire the rifle, nor check out the scope and zero the rifle at range of 100 yds. in the 18 hour period of time the rifle is in their possession?
did not take time to test fire the rifle, nor check out the scope and zero the rifle
You're being a "monday Morning quarterback"........ You now know that the rifle was incapable of performing the deed.....BUT ... Only the conspirators ( FBI Investigators) knew that on 11/23/63.....and it was their mission to convince the gullible and trusting public that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone nut killer.
Hoover had the FBI agents future in his hands......and he told the press that any hint that the USSR or Castro was behind the assassination could lead to a nuclear holocaust ...... Of course he knew damned well that the communists were not the perpetrators but he wanted us suckers to accept the lie because any alternative scenario could lead to a nuclear war, or rebellion against the government.....