JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on April 18, 2021, 10:16:00 AM
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Hoffman couldn't hear, White didn't hear, Murphy heard.
In this Robin Unger Bell frame (normal_snapshot20111219191702.jpg)(109/208) of the Bell footage we might be looking at
Virgil (Ed) Hoffman sitting on the western concrete barrier near the north-western end of the Stemmons overpass,
21 yd south of the legendary spot (Hoffman's Lookout) where he always said he was sitting.
The JFK limo & Queen Mary have already passed him, passing west of him & below him, heading north on the Stemmons on-ramp, & he is watching the remainder of the motorcade.
The northbound car on Stemmons slowly passing him will have to stop on the end of the queue of cars blocked at the railroad overpass (overpass is 114 yd north of him).
In a later frame we can see that Hoffman is on the far side of that car, ie at the western barrier.
He is sitting almost over the on-ramp. That duznt compute. Officer Murphy's job is to keep gawkers off the overpass, especially in the area over the on-ramp.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRw0R2rt/bell-hoffman-sitting-on-barrier.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sf4sJzpy/hoffman-sitting-on-barrier.jpg)
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In this printscreen of the Bell footage
we can see the top say 30 inches of Officer Murphy standing on the eastern side of the Stemmons overpass.
Our view of him is mostly blocked by the overhead signs.
The JFK limo will pass under him in about 10 sec as it enters the Stemmons on-ramp.
We know its Murphy koz that dark lump duznt appear in early frames, & is seen in later frames.
Murphy appears to be very high up. I am fairly certain that there aint any high curb for him to stand on.
I suspect that he heard the shooting & sirens & he stood high up on his 3-wheeler (did he have a 3-wheeler) to see over the signage.
Murphy heard Oswald's shot-1 at 0.8 sec after Z113, then Oswald's shot-2 5.7 sec later at Z218, then Hickey's shots-123456 5.0 sec later at Z313.
It calculates to 5.2 sec but i had to deduct 0.2 sec koz of the diff in travel times for the sound of shots by Oswald who is further away than Hickey.
Murphy wasn't visible in Bell's footage when JFK's limo was half in shade entering the triple underpass at Z468.
And then Murphy was fully up & visible at Z470 when the limo was 3/4 in shade.
Z313 to Z468 is 55 frames ie 3.0 sec, hence Murphy reacted to the final shots in 2.5 sec (allowing 0.5 sec for the speed of sound).
Yes, Murphy didnt react to Óswald's shots, but Hickey's auto burst finally did the trick.
We can see say 2.5 ft of Murphy over the signage, & the signage is 61 yd away from him, which is 1/5th
of the distance to Bell (308 yd), hence that 2.5 ft gains him say 12.5 ft of extra vertical vision at Bell, but Bell is standing in the peristyle, or in the garden bed in front of the peristyle,
& that 12.5 ft has to be measured down from the level of Bell's camera.
And anyhow Murphy's vision of Dealey Plaza is blocked by the concrete eastern barrier of the triple underpass which is 23 ft high.
Actually, Murphy could see much of Elm St to the left of the signage, but he couldn't see JFK or Hickey in the middle of Elm St at Z313 koz the paling fence
was on his sight-line, plus there are 3 trees on the grassy knoll.
But praps Murphy could see a bit of JFK & Co later further down Elm St, & he climbed onto his 3-wheeler (did he have a 3-wheeler) for a better look.
I reckon that he had a 3-wheeler. Its elementary.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwSzMpTx/bell-Murphy.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bbpmj9q3/bell-Murphy.jpg)
Actually, Robin Unger's gallery of Bell's footage has 56/208 which shows Murphy high up over the signage.
Later, i show that one of Robin's frames shows that later Murphy moves to the western barrier after JFK & Co have passed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HsmYrLFj/Bell-56of208.jpg)
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In McIntire's pix we can see Officer White next to the western barrier of the triple underpass over the south side of Main St.
White said that he didn’t hear any shots because of a passing train, but there is no train in sight.
White is 127 yd from Hickey when JFK is at Z313, but 40 yd of that distance is the width of the underpass & i dont think that White could see Hickey at that instant, nor hear apparently.
Notice that Tague or someone is looking -- hmmmm, praps Tague is still hiding behind the pier.
Notice that the Agents on Queen Mary are all looking at Hickey who is holding the smoking AR15 now about 6 bullets lighter.
McIntire is standing in the fork of the road which is the start of the Stemmons on-ramp. And Officer Murphy is about 10 yd north of him & above.
And Hoffman tells us that Hoffman is sitting at Hoffmans's Lookout, ie about 50 yd north of McIntire, on the other side (ie the western side)
of the 7 lane Stemmons overpass (back in 1963 it was 3 wide lanes plus 2 wide breakdown lanes).
However we now suspect that at the instant that McIntire clicks his camera Hoffman is driving his Falcon very slowly down the overpass just above McIntire.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zDsXx7QS/White-Tague.jpg)
[edit 25may2022][Here the overhead signs are 181 ft from McIntyre, the front of the jfklimo is 45 ft closer (ie at 136 ft), the front of the Queen Mary is 25 ft before the signs (ie at 206 ft from McIntyre).]
[The jfklimo must have passed McIntyre & was in the shadow of the overpass before McIntyre rewound his camera, hence his next pix is of the Queen Mary which is say 70 ft behind the jfklimo (ie there is 50 ft of daylite tween the 2 limo's).]
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I reckon that that might be Hoffman that we can see standing next to his Falcon,
stopped in the queue blocked at the railroad overpass about 105 yd north of him.
[edit][A closer look at footage tells me that Hoffman's Falcon is still moving & it probly stops a car length further north, hence that there guy aint Hoffman.
Anyhow Hoffman would have gotten out of the far side of the Falcon, the driver's side, & would have dashed over to the western barrier for a close look at the remainder of the motorcade.
Alltho there would at that time still have been a goodly amount of motorcade to be seen exiting the triple underpass.
That there guy is standing at the eastern barrier, & he would like to be on the overpass proper, but Officer Murphy is shooing gawkers away.]
[edit][I had another look at Robin Unger's frames.
I reckon that that there guy was a passenger that jumped out before the Falcon had stopped rolling.
So, Hoffman had a passenger. Bell's footage is jumpy & blurry & too brief to tell for sure. But that guy seems to appear at the door like magic.
And he is nowhere to be seen in Bell's earlier footage that i will comment on later.
Unlike the gawker sitting on the western barrier, who can be seen in Bell's earlier footage, as i will show later.
And, if u squint real hard, u can tell that Mr Passenger Man is looking north west at JFK & Co (ie he is looking at the onramp).
Of course there is always a chance that that Falcon aint Hoffman's, & that Hoffman's Falcon stopped in the queue some minutes earlier,
& that the gawker sitting on the western barrier is Hoffman. They would have stopped traffic at the railroad overpass about 5 minutes earlier.
Hoffman has also said that he parked his Falcon on the left shoulder of the on-ramp just north of the railroad overpass at 12:00.
In another version he said that he parked in the left break-down lane of Stemmons, near Hoffman's Lookout.
Either way i doubt that the cops allowed parking on the on-ramp or on the Freeway (ie before they blocked traffic at the rail overpass).
There were say a dozen gawkers around McIntire when he took his pix, where did they park?
No, the Falcon in Bell's footage is Hoffman's, & he had a passenger.]
(https://i.postimg.cc/2ygKq12H/1961-Falcon.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdZ5H3rX/hoffman-falcon.jpg)
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If the guy sitting on the western barrier is Hoffman then why is he calmly sitting there.
A fraction of a minute ago he saw a guy throwing a rifle to another guy near the picket fence.
Hoffman said that after he saw the hole in JFK's head he ran north towards the railroad overpass waving his arms
trying to get the attention of a police officer (Brown) up on the overpass (93 yd from Hoffman's Lookout) to alert the world to the sniper.
Running north doesn't make much sense, Murphy was 53 yd away south of Hoffman's Lookout, albeit on the east side, ie across 3 lanes of traffic & 2 breakdown lanes.
Murphy was 37 yd from the gawker sitting on the western barrier.
[edit][Later i show that Murphy had crossed to the west side, & was only 33 yd away from Hoffman's Lookout, & on the same side, ie in the same lane -- & only 15 yd away from the gawker sitting on the western barrier.]
Anyhow at the time of that frame of the Bell film JFK has gone past a while ago & is almost on Stemmons.
So, i ask again, why is Hoffman calmly sitting there?
I doubt that Hoffman (driving the Falcon) saw JFK at all. But he did catch some of the late commotion in Dealey Plaza, & in the carpark at the paling fence.
So, if that sitting guy (gawker) is Hoffman, then Hoffman exaggerated what he saw, to family & friends & workmates. And, for some reason, according to Duke Lane,
Hoffman's 1967 story involved him seeing 2 guys running out of the rear of the TSBD,
holding something, running north up Houston St & then east up a side street, even tho Hoffman couldn’t see the rear of the TSBD from Hoffman's Lookout.
Anyhow according to Duke Lane that was Ed's story in June 1967 when he was pushed by his niece into giving a talk to her school class.
And then he was pushed by her teacher into making a statement to the FBI.
Then in March 1977 according to Duke Lane Hoffman surfaced again with a new story, & this time his workmates pushed him into seeing the FBI,
& his story was that he saw a guy tossing a rifle to another guy near the picket fence.
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Here is Hoffman's falcon slowly approaching Officer Murphy & about 63 yd from where
Hoffman eventually stops a little out of frame, ie near the guy sitting on the barrier (gawker).
This pix is at about Z500, ie say 10 sec after Z313.
We first see the Falcon at 0:43 in the youtube footage i am looking at at present, at which time the tail of the JFK limo is almost in the shade of the underpass,
which corresponds to Z470 (the limo is fully in the shade in Z471), & we last see the Falcon when it is within inches of stopping at 1:02,
which suggests a span of 19 sec, add to that the 8.6 sec tween Z313 & Z470 & it totals 27.6 sec.
Hence JFK had probly (in 19 sec) reached Hoffman's Falcon before Hoffman got out of his Falcon.
And, i doubt that the paling fence sniper took 28 sec before he played toss the rifle.
When McIntire snaps the pix shown in Reply#2 Hoffman's Falcon is approaching McIntire & Officer Murphy.
If Hoffman were in the right-hand lane he early on might have been able to look down & ahead over the lowish concrete barrier to the
triple underpass to see JFK exiting the underpass, or a bit later when JFK was closer, or a bit later when passing McIntire & Murphy
he could have looked down & directly across to see JFK when JFK was in the location in McIntire's pix.
But Officer Murphy was standing in lane-1 & i suspect that Hoffman must have been in lane-2 at best, in which case he might not have
been able to see JFK from the driver's seat on the left of the Falcon, or praps he could but only early on when JFK was further away.
In any case Hoffman could only have seen JFK at a distance, while driving his Falcon, & in any case we know that JFK was mostly covered by Agent Hill & Jackie.
There is no way that Hoffman could have seen JFK's injury.
So, later, where shown, Hoffman stopped, & got out, & then joined the guy at the western barrier,
& then Ed would have seen the remaining motorcade go past, but he missed JFK & Queen Mary by many seconds.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRQptRdZ/Hoffman-s-falcon.jpg)
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Where do you see smoke coming from Hickeys weapon?
There are lots of mentions of smoke in Elm St at Hickey's pozzy at Z313, & i reckon that most of the other mentions
of smoke say near the pergola or grassy knoll or picket fence actually refer to Hickey's smoke.
For example the Willis girl said she saw smoke near the grassy knoll, but her sight-line passed throo Hickey.
Holland's sight-line for smoke high up in the trees at the first shot passed throo Oswald's window, it was Oswald's smoke.
Later his smoke related to all of the shots, not just the first, & his smoke got lower & lower & until at fence height, & in the end it was behind the paling fence.
But u of course are referring to my mention of a smoking AR15 in McIntire's pix or at least after Queen Mary has gone throo the triple underpass.
That comment was tongue in cheek.
However after the 4 or 5 or 6 shot auto burst Queen Mary was full of smoke, smell-wise if not vision-wise, & other motorcadians smelled the smoke
all the way to the hozzie, & Officers on bridges along the route smelled it.
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Here is an aerial from Freeway Man by M. Duke Lane. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/FreeWayman.htm
I drew a fat yellow line showing my estimates of the pozzy of the Falcon & of Bell where Bell first films it.
And a fat yellow line to a few yards further along where the Falcon appears in the pix in Reply#1 & Reply#5.
And a fat yellow line showing the pozzy of the Falcon where we last see it, almost stopped.
The Falcon stopped i reckon 1 car length past its pozzy in the pix in my initial posting & Reply#3.
The Falcon traveled 59 yd. I usually scale distances based on the TSBD being 98 ft by 98 ft.
Hoffman (if he is the gawker)(or if he is sitting at Hoffman's Lookout)(or if he is in the Falcon) had a good view of the paling fence carpark, but couldn't see the rear of the TSBD.
I drew a thin green line to Murphy's 2 locations.
And to the gawker.
And to Hoffman's Lookout (not vizible from Bell's location koz of a tree in Elm St near the picket fence).
Duke has drawn Hoffman's Lookout in a wrong location in the photo. Duke called it Ed standing (see blue lines)(& Duke drew it between Gawker & Hoffman's Lookout).
(https://i.postimg.cc/63Txn5L7/aerial-overpass-underpass-2.jpg)
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Here we can see Officer Murphy again in Robin Unger's Bell 109/208 freeze frame of Bell's footage.
This time Murphy is at the western barrier of the overpass.
He was at the eastern barrier, saw JFK & Co pass underneath, & he dashed over to the western barrier for another look.
He probly took say 7 sec to cross 3 wide lanes plus 2 wide breakdown lanes (today it is 7 narrow lanes with no breakdown lanes).
So, at the time of the footage JFK has passed the railroad overpass & is entering Stemmons Freeway.
Thats why Murphy looks thin, he is standing facing to our right, looking towards JFK & Co a long ways away north, & we see him side-on.
Hoffman in his Falcon is a few seconds short of stopping & getting out to join the gawker at the western barrier.
Hoffman didn see no hole in JFK's head.
Hoffman didn see 2 guys playing toss the rifle.
Its elementary.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5Ln6Z5t/bell-of-murphy-falcon-passenger-gawkers.jpg)
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The red arrow is where Officer Murphy crossed Stemmons from east to west, in Bell's footage.
The distance tween Hoffman's Lookout & Murphy when on the western side is now only 33 yd.
But Hoffman says that Hoffman ran north (from Hoffman's Lookout) towards Officer Brown on duty high up on the railroad overpass 100 yd away.
Why didnt he run to the 6 or so Officers below the railroad overpass at road level blocking traffic.
And what about Officer Murphy now only 33 yd south of Hoffman's Lookout & now on the same (western) side of Stemmons.
Hoffman was definitely on the Stemmons overpass on that day, & he must have been aware of all of the police present, yet in later years he forgets & comes up with a silly story.
Hoffman was definitely soft in the head. Its elementary.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCxDCdBn/Stemmons-overpass.jpg)
As can be seen Officer Murphy while at the eastern barrier had a good view of the paling fence & carpark.
And he was a little closer to the carpark than Hoffman Lookout (which is on the western side of 5 lanes)(now 7).
Murphy was 196 yd from the fence, Hoffman's Lookout 217 yd, ie 21 yd further.
And the large overhead signage that partly blocked Murphy's view of the triple overpass didn't affect Murphy's view of the fence & carpark.
I didn't draw Murphy's sight-line to the paling fence on the aerial, but it passes well clear north of the large concrete pillar at the north west end of the triple underpass.
So, if Hoffman saw 2 guys playing toss the rifle then Murphy would have seen them too.
And the 3 guys that we see in some of the pix in this thread standing against the
north eastern concrete splayed retaining wall of the triple overpass would have seen too, the wall meets
the paling fence at about 45 deg, hence the 3 could see well into the carpark, & the 3 were only 12 yd from the fence.
And when the tossee walked out to the cabinet & disassembled the rifle everybody on the triple underpass would have seen.
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Here we see Officer Murphy at the eastern barrier.
He dashed to the western barrier after JFK passed under him (view of barrier is blocked by that slowly moving van/truck).
Murphy at the time of this freeze frame is standing on his 3-wheeler (did he have a 3-wheeler), hence he is visible above the signage.
The gawker sitting on the western barrier can be seen waiting.
If Hoffman is to be believed then that gawker might be Hoffman (but it aint). Anyhow, that gawker is about 20 yd south of Hoffman's Lookout (the Lookout is where Hoffman says that Hoffman was sitting).
Hoffman & a passenger are i reckon approaching in that Falcon.
In a couple of seconds we know that Mr Passenger will see JFK exit the triple overpass, that is why he jumped out before the Falcon stopped rolling.
And, Hoffman pulled up a long way short of the end of the queue (the queue is somewhere ahead)(hidden by trees), because his passenger yelled out asking him to stop.
Koz his passenger could see that when JFK & Co were exiting the triple overpass, lights were flashing, sirens were blaring.
I mean in effect yelled out, koz Hoffman was deaf (but he twernt dumb or mute)(according to one of his workmates).
Its all elementary.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBc0kTYr/snapshot20130621072529.jpg)
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After JFK & Co had passed, we can see that a number of queuers walked up to learn about what happened.
The walking queuers are shown by arrows. Some would have heard the shots.
Did Hoffman ever mention that he was surrounded by fellow gawkians. I recall that he said he was alone.
He said that he was puzzled that no-one else had chosen his ideal vantage point.
Hoffman is i reckon driving that Falcon (see arrow), & it is still slowly rolling, & will stop in a car length,
& then Hoffman will join the gawker at the western barrier (see arrow), & JFK & Co will by then be on Stemmons 200 yd north.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNB1cVjM/bell-109-more-gawkers.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FF2F8H31/bell-118-more-gawkers.jpg)
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A nice view. There were 3 car lanes northbound, & 2 breakdown lanes, so the left lane was a breakdown lane just like Hoffman said.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFN1kHVn/download.jpg)
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Mr. BALL. You are a patrolman, are you?
Mr. MURPHY. That's right
Mr. BALL. Do you have a three-wheeler?
Mr. MURPHY. A three-wheeler - yes.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did they assign you to some post?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I was assigned to the overpass - the Stemmons Freeway overpass northbound at Elm Street - over Elm.
Mr. BALL. What instructions did you have?
Mr. MURPHY. It was to keep anyone and everyone off of the overpass and to keep traffic moving until the motorcade arrived.
Mr. BALL. Now, you have a map here which you have drawn for us to show your position, Is that right? (Reporter marked instrument - Murphy Exhibit A, for identification)
Mr. MURPHY. Yes; that's right.
Mr. BALL. And you have drawn a position there as to where you were standing, is that right?
Mr. MURPHY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. And where you parked your three-wheeler?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. All right, mark the place where you were standing as Position 1, using an "X".
Mr. MURPHY. All right. (Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr. BALL. And your three-wheeler was beside you?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes; right on the shoulder.
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Larry Sneed -- No More Silence: An Oral History of the Assassination of President Kennedy
JOE MURPHY Traffic Division Dallas Police Department "] could see that something was wrong in the car as it got nearer to my position because the
President's wife was leaning over toward President Kennedy, and as ] was standing right above them, ] heard someone say, "Get us to the nearest hospital!"
Born and raised in Dallas, Joe Murphy was offered a contract to play baseball in the Chicago White Sox organization. After playing a year at Midland in the
West Texas-Mexican League and later for a semi-pro team in Baytown, Texas, he returned to Dallas and upon the advise of an uncle,
joined the Dallas Police Department in 1942. Interrupted by service in the Army during World War II, Murphy returned to the police department in 1946
where he served most of his career in the Traffic Division. He is reputed to have given the most traffic tickets in the history of the Dallas Police Department.
I was assigned on the Stemmons Freeway over Elm Street about 150 yards from the School Book Depository. My job was to keep traffic moving and
not to allow anybody to stop on the bridge or park their car anywhere on the shoulders
so that they could watch the motorcade from the bridge.
I was facing west by the way the motorcade was traveling, and it was to go up the service road to my right and onto the freeway.
Several motor jockeys and other officers were there to stop traffic completely when the motorcade was to pass.
That was the only time that traffic was allowed to stop on the freeway.
Many of the officers were north of the overpass as much as a quarter of a mile from the overpass where the Elm Street entrance entered the freeway.
Others were just riding the area stopping with messages they had for me. We were all channeled to listen for any information from the office or from the dispatcher.
Prior to the arrival of the motorcade I saw some men walking up on the Triple Underpass. Based on how they were dressed, I assumed they were railroad people.
There was also at least one officer there as well.
I could see the motorcade when it came down Main and turned right onto Houston and over to Elm.
But there were some trees that obscured my view at Elm and Houston, so I lost sight of it for a moment or two.
As it approached my position,I heard the shots and a flock of pigeons took off flying in circles.
I couldn't tell where the noise was coming from due to the reverberations. In fact, I didn't realize they were shots at first.
But I did hear three, what were later defined as shots, and they were about evenly spaced.
I could see that something was wrong in the car as it got nearer to my position because the President's wife was leaning over toward President Kennedy,
and as I was standing right above them, I heard someone say, "Get us to the nearest hospital!"
I waited to hear something on the radio and had difficulty hearing due to all the noise.
By that time, traffic had been reopened north on Stemmons so the noise factor had increased.
I wasn't able to tell much about what was going on in Dealey Plaza.
I saw a number of people on the ground, then some began to move back up toward the hill. Most were headed toward the intersection at Elm and Houston.
I didn't see anybody below me or in that grassy area. I've heard so many tales about that grassy area,
but I don't recall seeing anybody over there either running or walking.
After the shooting, the order was given for all us three-wheelers to come to the School Book Depository.
We were told that some people were supposed to have been running behind the building. So we circled the area looking for anything and yet nothing in particular.
I remember talking with several people just to see if they had seen anything, but there was nothing of any value that I recall that concerned the shooting.
I wasn't involved in anything further in the investigation. My usual hours were 6:00 A.M. to 2:00 P.M., but they held us over late that afternoon. I had..........
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Ok, we have a problem. There is a possible glitch in my theory.
Murphy is trying to dash across Stemmons at the same time & place that Hoffman is slowly motoring his Falcon into history.
Did Murphy cross first, or did Hoffman (& passenger) pass throo first, or did they collide?
The aerial shows the problem. JFK is entering the triple underpass when the Falcon is at the start.
And Murphy is at that exact moment climbing up to stand higher in the trunk of his 3-wheeler.
Murphy wont start his dash until JFK has passed under him, his dash covers 24 yd.
Did Murphy cross first?
JFK & Co are accelerating, the underpass is 40 yd wide, the overpass is 24 yd wide, dist tween is 147 yd.
The Falcon is going slow & getting slower, & stops where shown, about 67 yd.
I have drawn the Falcon's traject in lane-3, but it could have been in lane-2 or lane-4, lane-1 & lane-5 are breakdown lanes.
Mr Passenger is all the while looking down on JFK & Co, at least he is once JFK has exited the underpass.
Murphy shortly realizes that he can't see JFK when JFK is exiting the underpass koz by standing high in the trunk the signage is now
blocking his view of JFK under the signage & he quickly jumps down onto the tarmac again.
Hoffman sees Murphy's gymnastics, his passenger yells that there is something wrong in the motorcade.
Mr Passenger hears the sirens & sees the flashing lights.
Hoffman yells back that its no good yelling at him koz he is deaf!
Mr Passenger yells back then how did Hoffman know that he was yelling!
JFK passes under Murphy & Murphy spins around to start his dash.
Hoffman sees Murphy take a step towards Hoffman's lane.
Murphy sees the Falcon & his eyes meet Hoffman's eyes.
Who blinks first?
Did Hoffman hit the brakes, or did he hit the accelerator?
Did he hit Murphy?
(https://i.postimg.cc/WpxSm7vN/Hoffman-runs-over-Murphy.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkhCNF7w/Hoffman.jpg)
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Possibly Murphy after he had been called to the TSBD.
I reckon that he looks shaken, koz he saw a bloody JFk, or praps it was koz he had nearly been flattened by a Falcon.
(https://i.postimg.cc/76cyHN5j/Possibly-Murphy-at-TSBD.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dQRr9r0R/Murphy.jpg)
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I reckon that Hoffman's Falcon passed Officer Murphy as Murphy spun to dash across the overpass.
Its like this. A close look at the frames shows that the Falcon was going at 3.3 yd/sec for almost all of its 59 yd & 19.0 sec traject, ie from when/where the Falcon appears
until when/where it stops next to the gawker sitting on the western barrier.
The Falcon has to travel 38 yd to get to the conflict point where Murphy crosses, which takes the Falcon 11.5 sec at 3.3 yd/sec.
Meanwhile JFK has to cross the triple underpass which is 40 yd wide, & then go 147 yd to reach Murphy, totaling 187 yd, which at say 35 mph or 17.2 yd/sec takes 10.9 sec.
And we can add say 1 sec for Murphy to have a half look at Queen Mary approaching him, which makes it 11.9 sec.
So, when Murphy spins round he sees that the Falcon is already passing, & there is no conflict with the Falcon.
Murphy dashes across 24 yd to the western side on an angle to catch a late glimpse of JFK.
The Falcon continues another 21 yd & 7.5 sec before stopping well short of the end of the stationary queue of cars, koz Mr Passenger is yelling to stop.
Mr Passenger jumps out 1 car length before the Falcon has stopped rolling, & he looks north west to see the rear of the JFK limo well up north along the on-ramp.
After passing under Murphy the JFK limo takes 3.5 sec to reach Hoffman's Lookout, which is made up of 25 yd to cross the overpass plus 45 yd to get to the Lookout totaling 70 yd at 41 mph or 20.0 yd/sec.
3.5 sec plus 10.9 sec totals 14.4 sec for the limo to get to Hoffman's Lookout (after we first see Hoffman's Falcon)(ie after the JFK limo is seen entering the triple underpass).
The limo takes another 4.0 sec to go the additional 105 yd to the rail bridge, ie a total of 18.4 sec.
Whilst the Falcon takes 19.0 sec to stop near the gawker sitting on the barrier.
Mr Passenger jumped out over 1 second before the Falcon stopped, ie at 18.0 sec, & Hoffman jumped out say 1 sec after it stopped, ie at 20.0 sec.
Either way the limo had passed the Lookout at 14.4 sec, & Mr Passenger was 3.6 sec too late & Hoffman was 5.6 sec too late.
No, Hoffman aint never saw no hole in JFK's head.
And, also, don’t forget from a previous reply that Z313 was 26 sec before the Falcon stopped,
hence even if Hoffman looked towards the paling fence carpark as soon as he got out
he would nonetheless be too late to see any paling fence sniper playing toss the rifle.
Hoffman would have looked after JFK & Co for a while, before turning his attention to the east.
Hoffman would at best have seen the early stages of the commotion on & around the triple underpass, but not the first say 30 sec.
And then his attention would return to the remnants of the motorcade straggling past.
By then there would be a crowd at the Lookout -- Hoffman, Mr Passenger, the gawker sitting on the barrier, & say 6 gawkers who had joined them from the queues of cars.
And after about 15 minutes the roadblock would be removed & Hoffman would continue to his dentist. And Hoffman would have a tale to tell.
JFK had been shot, & Hoffman caught a glimpse of the tail of JFK's limo when it was 200 yd north of the rail bridge, ie over 300 yd from Hoffman.
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Here is the McIntire 2 pix from Robin Unger's gallery.
How come McIntire 2 isnt of JFK's limo?
Was he too slow winding his camera?
Or was his pix of JFK's limo confiscated?
What might a missing confiscated JFK pix show that was confiscation-worthy?
A cracked windshield?
[edit 25may2022][The jfklimo had passed McIntyre before he had rewound his camera, the jfklimo had moved well over 136 ft since his previous pix when it was 136 ft away from him, but he managed to get this pix of the Queen Mary which was about 70 ft behind the jfklimo, ie 50 ft clear behind, ie there was 50 ft of daylite tween the 2 limo's.]
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2Kfbc8g/Mc-Intire-2-Large.jpg)
Agent McIntyre is on the left running board. Different spelling.
There are 8 gawkers. And there are another say 4 gawkers nearer the triple underpass, including Jack Daniel & his grandkids filming.
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Here is Hoffman's map of his sniper & rifle toss & cabinet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxfFsPfp/hoffmans-map.jpg)
Here is Bower's view.
As can be seen the cabinets are not exactly where Hoffman reckons. His cabinet might be No2, near the 3 gawkers.
Why would the tossee walk past cars to get to a cabinet?
Why would a tosser run from one end of the carpark to the other end, & then walk back not far away from where he shot.
Surely the tossee could stand near the tosser & then dismantle the rifle immediately without having to look for some silly cabinet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hx16stYk/bower-s-view-of-hoffman-s-toss.jpg)
Here is Bower's view again. Which cabinet did Hoffman refer to? All 3 are a long ways away from the site of the toss.
Notice that Bowers would have seen Arnold if Arnold were standing tween the fence & the pergola.
And we know from other photos that Bowers could not possibly see the 3 guys that we know were standing halfway down the steps from the pergola to Elm St.
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7KRvWFR/bowers-view-of-hoffman-s-cabinets.jpg)
Bowers had a good view of Murphy & Hoffman on the Stemmons Freeway overpass, if no trains.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJ0vGQMg/bowers-view-of-murphy-hoffman.jpg)
Could Bowers see Hickey's AR15 smoke throo the hollow blocks of the pergola? I reckon not.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2vMLhrp/bowers-screenprint2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hxmwt0Dp/bowers-screenprint1.jpg)
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4:55 Bowers heard 3 shots, & he tapped the table to show the timing.
The first & second were 1 sec apart, & second & third were 1/5th second apart.
I recall that Bowers said somewhere that he saw no shooters, he saw 1 shooter firing, & he saw 2 shooters firing. If he hadnt died in a traffic accident he would surely have reached 3 or 4 shooters firing.
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Here is a pix of the railroad carparks circa 1966.
The main area ABCDEFG appears to have an entry/exit at 1 (Elm St extn) & 2 (Houston St).
On Friday 22 Nov 1963 the only entry/exit available was 1. I saw that somewhere.
Anyhow Bowers confirms that when in the youtube footage he says that he didn’t know whether Car 3 (the dirty 1961-62 chevvy with out of state plates & political stickers) parked or whether it left the area koz he said that he couldn’t see Elm St beyond the TSBD. This suggests that 2 was closed at that time.
If u think about it, if he wasnt sure whether Car3 had left then how can he be sure that Car1 & Car2 had left earlier.
Car1 & Car2 would have disappeared behind the TSBD same as Car3, all 3 cars could have been parked behind the TSBD (behind from Bowers' view, in front from everyone else's view).
In any case Elm St extn itself is outside the carpark, so merely driving into Elm St extn qualifies as "leaving".
Entry/exit 2 must have been closed for some reason, either temporarily koz of JFK, or praps semi-permanently koz of the roadworks on Houston.
So, all of the cars going in & out of ABCDEFG on Fri 22Nov1963 had to use Elm, ie entry/exit No1 in my pix.
So, was there a sniper behind the paling fence, i don’t think so,
not if he/she wanted to drive away with a rifle,
& not if he/she wanted to drive away without a rifle.
Ok here's the plan. We dont fire from a hiding place, we fire from where we can be easily seen. No-one will suspect that.
We dont run away, we simply drive or walk towards the cops & trouble. No-one will suspect that.
(https://i.postimg.cc/05nZsdgv/Railroad-carparks-c1966-Baylor.jpg)
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We might as well celebrate my finding of another aerial pix by having another look at the silliness of Hoffman's tosser & tossee.
Look at how far the tosser had to run to get to the tossee (pick one of the 2 stars).
Look at how far the tossee had to walk to get to a Cabinet. Why didn't he dismantle the rifle near a car?
The gawkers & cops on the triple underpass would not see a thing koz the tosser & tossee knew that they would be watching JFK & Co passing under. Smart.
Sitzman, standing high on the pedestal, would have seen & heard the tosser firing over the fence.
(https://i.postimg.cc/63YJ3RYb/Hoffman-s-tosser-tossee.jpg)
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Holland & Lane i think near Cabinet No1.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bvv7ZyPD/cabinet-No1.jpg)
Spot the snipers.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fN8Dpyk/Spot-the-snipers.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3F9gkn1/spot-the-snipers.jpg)
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https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/FreeWayman.htm
……….. After the motorcade passed and having failed to get “Foster’s” attention, Ed then ran to his car and headed north on Stemmons to the first exit at Continental Avenue, and then into downtown in search of someone in authority to tell what he’d seen. [EW, 10]
(Marrs and Sloan each next take Ed into the Dealey Plaza area, the former describing Ed being able to drive around behind the TSBD in search of the men he’d seen “for some time and then leave without being stopped or questioned by authorities,” [Marrs, 83] but also without attempting to communicate with any of the dozens of officers there about the men. Sloan depicts Ed going to “the parking area by the railroad yards,” but leaving the area because of all the “panic” and “mass confusion.” He did not attempt to approach any of the police there because he “didn’t know how to communicate with any of them.” “Instead,” Sloan says, Ed decided to “try to report what he had seen to the police” (!). [Sloan, 20])………
Might the Falcon in the pix be Hoffman's? It doesn't seem to be a police car.
It is blocked & will probly have to reverse out. Hoffman had a passenger that day but we can't see a passenger sitting in the car. The driver might be missing too, its hard to tell.
In reality Hoffman did not see a tosser & a tossee, hence if that is Hoffman then he must have simply driven over to have a gawk, having no information of any kind that might be of any use.
In other versions of his story Hoffman said that he didn't drive to Dealey Plaza, he went straight to his dentist.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvQqRpRR/hoffman-falcon-at-elm-st.jpg)
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https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/10267-ed-hoffmans-activities-and-observations/page/18/
Dale Myers wrote……….. ………….. Did you notice that in Eye Witness, Ed states that he saw the limo roar up the entrance ramp, and then turned around again to see the "rifle toss" and flight ... and then turned around again to see the SS follow-up car with Hickey pointing his AR-15 at him? (See the sketches above for an illustration of how far apart the limo and follow-up car were.) ……………
My Comments………… If Dale is correct, & according to my memory of what Hoffman said over the years (June 1967)(march 1977)(about 5 other accounts)(about 5 youtube footages)(2 books)(i haven’t redd the books, but i have seen snippets), we can (ignoring most of the self-contradictions over the years) assemble the following storyline (one of many possible storylines) that Hoffman ………..
1. Sat waiting on the western concrete barrier of the 3-lane Stemmons Overpass.
2. Saw a puff of smoke at the carpark fence (at the time of say Z313).
3. Saw 2 guys with a rifle & a gun in the railway carpark.
4. Saw JFK below him in the limo, with a gaping head-wound, speeding north on the on-ramp.
5. Turned & saw 2 guys execute a rifle-toss in the carpark, & saw 1 run north & then east along railways, & saw 1 walk back east into the carpark.
6. Turned back & saw Hickey below him in the Queen Mary, brandishing an AR15, speeding north on the on-ramp.
7. Ran north towards Officer Brown (on duty up on the railway bridge), to try to alert him of a shooter in the carpark.
8. Continued past Brown, to Hoffman's Falcon, parked on the west shoulder of the on-ramp, just north of the railway bridge.
9. Drove his Falcon east sharply across the lanes of Stemmons (which was still blocked to northbound traffic at the railway bridge),
.......& then drove north-east on the off-ramp,
..........& then drove to the TSBD area (to report the shooters)(& to look for the shooters).
10. Drove around the railway carparks near the TSBD -- didn’t like the commotion, so exited.
11. Drove to the Police building -- but found that it was closed.
12. Gave up -- & drove to his dental appointment.
Some of Hoffman's storyline works ok -- & some bits are impossible.
More to come.
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Here are my calculations of some likely or possible timings for likely or possible events.
Z313. Tosser shoots JFK in the head. Time is 00.0 sec.
Z471. Limo enters triple underpass.
158 frames from Z313 to Z471 at 18.3 fps is 8.6 sec.
76 yd from Z313 to Z471 in 8.6 sec is 18.0 mph.
Z471 to where JFK going north passes Hoffman's Lookout is 254 yd.
At an average speed of 30 mph this takes 17.3 sec ---- add 8.6 sec makes a total of 25.9 sec.
At an average speed of 35 mph this takes 14.8 sec ---- add 8.6 sec makes a total of 23.2 sec.
At an average speed of 40 mph this takes 13.0 sec ---- add 8.6 sec makes a total of 21.6 sec.
At an average speed of 45 mph this takes 11.5 sec ---- add 8.6 sec makes a total of 20.1 sec.
The average speed will have been slow, due to the limo slowing to get directions to the hospital from the lead car which had stopped or nearly. And there is a bend onto the on-ramp. I reckon that JFK is likely to have taken at least 23 sec from Z313 to Hoffman's Lookout.
From Hoffman's Lookout to the north side of the railway overpass is 100 yd.
At an average speed of 40 mph this takes JFK 5.1 sec.
At an average speed of 45 mph this takes 4.5 sec.
At an average speed of 50 mph this takes 4.1 sec.
At an average speed of 55 mph this takes 3.7 sec.
At an average speed of 60 mph this takes 3.4 sec.
I reckon that it took 4.1 sec.
And the Queen Mary would have been no more that 2 sec behind all the way.
Z313. Tosser shoots JFK in the head (Hoffman sees puff of smoke) ---- 00.0 sec. ---------- 00.0 sec.
Tosser runs 35 yd & tosses rifle --- 4 yd/s is 8.2 mph ----- -------------- 08.7 sec ------------ 08.7 sec.
Tosser walks north-east & meets Officer Smith -----------------------------17.5 sec ------------ 26.2 sec.
Tosser is questioned by Officer Smith --------------------------------------- 04.0 sec ------------ 30.2 sec.
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I reckon that JFK got to Hoffman's Lookout in 23.0 sec after the last shot at Z313.
And the Queen Mary was 2 sec behind at 25.0 sec.
And 4.1 sec later JFK & Queen Mary were north of the rail bridge (27.1 sec)(29.1 sec).
And a few seconds later (30.1 sec)(32.1 sec) JFK & Queen Mary had passed Hoffman's Falcon (parked he said just north of the rail bridge) & had merged onto Stemmons.
I reckoned that the tosser tosses the rifle to the tossee at 8.7 sec.
And then the tosser meets Officer Smith at 26.2 sec.
So, JFK & Queen Mary passed Hoffman at 23.0 & 25.0, while the tosser was walking to his meeting.
Hoffman said that he saw the toss after JFK went by, & before Queen Mary.
That aint possible. (a) I feel sure that Queen Mary trailed by no more than 2 sec.
(b) Hoffman gave at least 4 versions of the carpark antics of the tosser & tossee over the years, & the antic that i used for my toss being at 8.7 sec is the slowest.
Tosser & Smith have a dialog from 26.2 sec to 30.2 sec.
This was during the same period that JFK was in view of Hoffman when JFK emerged on the on-ramp south of Hoffman at say 22.0 sec, untill JFK passed the rail bridge at 27.1 sec, & Queen Mary passed the rail bridge at 29.1 sec.
So, how did Hoffman keep an eye on the on-ramp & the carpark at the same time?
If Hoffman looked away from the on-ramp say 2 sec after Queen Mary had passed, ie at 27.0 sec, he would not have caught Smith greeting tosser at 26.2.
Anyhow, even if Hoffman had been sitting at the Hoffman Lookout, like he said, there was no tosser or tossee.
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Here is where Hoffman said (in his book) that JFK & Queen Mary were, when Queen Mary passed by him.
Here JFK would be over 4.1 sec ahead, instead of the more likely 1 or 2 sec.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gm0NLVxY/aa-hoffman-pozzy-of-jfk-queen-mary.jpg)
Here is where Hoffman said he parked his falcon, on the left shoulder of the on-ramp.
Aerials show a long kerbed grassy area tween the on-ramp & Stemmons.
Hence i reckon that the Falcon was parked at least 50 yd north of the rail bridge.
Unless Hoffman had reversed south to park nearer the rail bridge, ie as per the drawing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CK0Pj0WH/aaa-hoffman-parked-his-falcon.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvy0JGg5/aaa-hoffman-sitting-on-barrier.jpg)
Hoffman's Lookout is shown in the wrong place in this photo (shown as deaf man).
(https://i.postimg.cc/66PMMnkQ/aaa-hoffmans-lookout.jpg)
Hoffman met the tosser & tossee on the JFK filmset.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBkW2PzK/aaa-hoffman-jfk-1991-film-set-SPEAK-NO-EVIL-by-BILL-SLOAN-2.jpg)
Ed was good at carom.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRHYqPfk/a-Ed-was-good-at-carom.jpg)
Hoffman looking north to the rail bridge.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4djL44Kz/aa-hoffman-looking-north.jpg)
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Craig Roberts and Ed Hoffman at the Larry Howard Symposium Kansas October 1994 #JFKassassination
2,422 views Apr 11, 2022 #JFKassassination
What percentage of Ed's statements here on this youtube & over the years were non-true? I reckon very close to 100% was a lie.
At 40:25 he says that the Queen Mary briefly stopped below his lookout, & turned its lights out, when they saw him gesturing.
At 40:25. ……. there were other special services – the other car was coming along behind them -- & the secret service noticed my hands—they noticed u know they stopped -- they turned their lights out – i thort maybe they were trying to motion to me – but they all got out of there very quickly of course -- & that man had already gone down the tracks by this time – so there was no time to let anyone know – so i ran & got in my car & i drove down towards that direction -- & i kept looking for where the man had gone – he had disappeared completely – no one ever found him…..
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First, I appreciate that you have discovered some interesting photos that contribute to our overall view of the assassination scene. However, you draw many conclusions based on images that could have varying interpretations. You are trying extremely hard to discredit a couple of witnesses that reported disturbing activity behind the picket fence. But what about the rest of the overwhelming evidence that a shot killed our president from that location? What about the scores of witnesses who also heard the shots coming from this location? Several witnesses ran right up the hill and searched the railroad yards, where Chief Curry instructed the officers to go immediately after the shooting. Who were the first two witnesses to see the president after the shooting? The First Lady and Clint Hill. Both reported a large hole in the back of his head, totally incongruent with a rear shot. What about the acoustics evidence? What about the violent motion of the president's head in the Zapruder film? Answer all those questions and abandon support for the moronic research of Donahue and Myers and maybe we can have a rational discussion...
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First, I appreciate that you have discovered some interesting photos that contribute to our overall view of the assassination scene. However, you draw many conclusions based on images that could have varying interpretations. You are trying extremely hard to discredit a couple of witnesses that reported disturbing activity behind the picket fence. But what about the rest of the overwhelming evidence that a shot killed our president from that location? What about the scores of witnesses who also heard the shots coming from this location? Several witnesses ran right up the hill and searched the railroad yards, where Chief Curry instructed the officers to go immediately after the shooting. Who were the first two witnesses to see the president after the shooting? The First Lady and Clint Hill. Both reported a large hole in the back of his head, totally incongruent with a rear shot. What about the acoustics evidence? What about the violent motion of the president's head in the Zapruder film? Answer all those questions and abandon support for the moronic research of Donahue and Myers and maybe we can have a rational discussion...
Zapruder Z313--Z320 shows that a big slab of skull blew out of the top right of JFK's head, & a large part of it hinged forward & a bit right. There was no large hole in the back of his head, just a small entry hole, from an AR15 slug.
Before posting on this forum i read almost all of the old threads & comments going back years. Plus i read almost all of the threads & postings on the Education forum. Plus of course hundreds of hits from google searches. I am amazed at the clever work of many members etc, much smarter than me. However i urge u to simply read my 400 or so postings/comments/replies on this present forum – just click on my name -- & click on my postings. I answer most of your questions.
Re the sounds of shots. Answer this. What is louder. The sound of a shot coming directly from a say 6.5 mm muzzle (with no echoes) – or the sound(s) of the combined echoes of a shot, the echoes coming off large areas of fencing & kerbing & buildings & people etc?
Handy Hint – a gunshot in a soundproof chamber makes very little noise.
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You have totally swallowed the AR15 nonsense which is your right. Not a single witness reported that any agents fired any weapon and Donahue's research seemed like a weird case of tunnel vision without any compelling evidence whatsoever. If there's a rear head shot, where's the exit and where did it occur? I don't trust the Zapruder film since nearly all the medical witnesses reported a large hole in the rear of the skull. Your question about what is louder is rather ludicrous and your handy hint made no sense. I've been to Dealey Plaza and I've carefully studied the acoustics evidence. Keep in mind that many witnesses directly below the depository reported shots from the railroad yards while others heard shots from above them. I believe shots came from multiple locations and to believe otherwise necessitates ignoring an enormous amount of evidence.
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You have totally swallowed the AR15 nonsense which is your right. Not a single witness reported that any agents fired any weapon and Donahue's research seemed like a weird case of tunnel vision without any compelling evidence whatsoever. If there's a rear head shot, where's the exit and where did it occur? I don't trust the Zapruder film since nearly all the medical witnesses reported a large hole in the rear of the skull. Your question about what is louder is rather ludicrous and your handy hint made no sense. I've been to Dealey Plaza and I've carefully studied the acoustics evidence. Keep in mind that many witnesses directly below the depository reported shots from the railroad yards while others heard shots from above them. I believe shots came from multiple locations and to believe otherwise necessitates ignoring an enormous amount of evidence.
Hickeyists make up i think 27% of jfkists.
Hickeyists left this forum a long time ago, & it is now owned by LNist & CTists.
Hickeyists agree that Oswald was a lone nut, but that he didn’t fire the fatal shot.
Hickeyists agree that there was a coverup, but that the main coverup was re Hickey's accidental homicide.
Hickeyists believe that Hickey fire one shot – me myself i know that he fired an auto burst.
I agree re multiple locations – (1) from the 6th floor window (2 shots) & (2) from in the Queen Mary (4 or 5 or 6 shots). No other shots/locations -- not the grassey knoll, not the paling fence, not the manholes.
I reckon that if u fired an AR15 at a nearby flat fence then the echo would be louder than the direct sound.
Hence many earwitnesses would have been confused.
But i have never studied any of the acoustic JFK stuff.
Re evidence, i bort JFK THE SMOKING GUN (Colin McLaren) & MORTAL ERROR (Bonar Menninger)(Donahue) – about 30 bucks each – these detail much of the witness stuff.
The Zapruder film has not been doctored. Are u going to believe the witnesses or your lieing eyes?
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Here are 2 guys & one sniper (hidden). This pix was some years later, dunno exact date here.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3F9gkn1/spot-the-snipers.jpg)
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Here is Holland's view of the smoke from Hickey's 4 or 5 or 6 shot burst. And smoke at Oswald's window. And smoke at the fence.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCMvWHvN/holland-saw-smoke.jpg)
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Hoffman would be unlikely to see (black line) any smoke from a shot (red line) fired away from Hoffman and fired downwards to JFK.
The 13 gawkers on or near the triple underpass (plus the 2 police on the triple underpass)(total is 15) would have seen the shooter/tosser toss the rifle to the tossee.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NqbYXxx/hoffman-s-view-of-smoke.jpg)
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(https://i.postimg.cc/3Jyc9ct4/hoffman-smoke-bond4lg.jpg)
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They were looking straight towards the limo then looked 20 degrees to the left to see the smoke. No way they thought smoke from the follow up car was from the knoll. Another claim is they just saw smoke from Heygood's bike when he dumped it but he did not show up till the RR guys were already running to the knoll, way after the head shot. Also film footage shows his bike did not put out visible smoke which is the more common result if you don't tip it a full 90 degrees or more.
No way dust was shaken off the leaves. It had just rained that morning and there were blustery winds moving the trees around. Not to mention the shot would have been 70 ft away from the trees.
You seem to be throwing up far out explanations up to see what sticks. If you give a credible explanation I will respond but this is getting too far fetched for me.
Yes it had rained.
One of the RR guys on the triple underpass said that there was no smoke near the fence, & that the other RR guys were crazy. He said that there was smoke down at the road.
There is no factual record of any RR guys running to the carpark at an early time.
But there is factual evidence that they were all fixed until a very very very very very late time.
There were 10 RR gawkers on the triple underpass, plus 2 police. And 3 RR gawkers on the abutment of the triple underpass. Making 15 witnesses in all in that area. Plus whathisname in the RR building. None of them saw any activity in the carpark.
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Craig Roberts and Ed Hoffman at the Larry Howard Symposium Kansas October 1994 #JFKassassination
2,422 views Apr 11, 2022 #JFKassassination
What percentage of Ed's statements here on this youtube & over the years were non-true? I reckon very close to 100% was a lie.
At 40:25 he says that the Queen Mary briefly stopped below his lookout, & turned its lights out, when they saw him gesturing.
At 40:25. ……. there were other special services – the other car was coming along behind them -- & the secret service noticed my hands—they noticed u know they stopped -- they turned their lights out – i thort maybe they were trying to motion to me – but they all got out of there very quickly of course -- & that man had already gone down the tracks by this time – so there was no time to let anyone know – so i ran & got in my car & i drove down towards that direction -- & i kept looking for where the man had gone – he had disappeared completely – no one ever found him…..
Recently i saw a few old mentions on forums re the jfklimo &/or Queen Mary stopping or slowing on Stemmons Fwy onramp below Hoffman's Lookout. And, i remembered that Hoffman had on at least one occasion (in youtubes or in books etc) "mentioned" that Queen Mary had stopped below him on the Stemmons onramp.
This "mention" by Hoffman is praps the most important bit of info re the whole Hoffman saga (ie his 100% krapp story of seeing a shooter shoot a shot over the paling fence etc).
It confirms that Hoffman was on Stemmons, but where? -- there are 6 possibilities – Hoffman was…..
1. Sitting at Hoffman's Lookout (out of view in the Bell footage, hidden by trees).
2. The Gawker, ie the guy (seen in Bell) sitting on the western barricade of Stemmons overpass (20 yd south of Hoffman's Lookout).
3. The guy driving the falcon (Falcon seen in Bell) very slowly near (2) & probly then stopping between (2) & (1).
4. The passenger that (seen in Bell) jumps out of the Falcon near (2).
5. One of the say 6 guys (seen in Bell) walking south up Stemmons overpass near (1) & (2).
6. Somewhere on the overpass nearer the rail bridge (with all of the queuers) where the Fwy was blocked 100 yd north.
I reckon that Hoffman was driving the Falcon (2). If the JFK limo or Queen Mary stopped or nearly (by up to 30 sec) then that would have given Hoffman a chance to (stop & get out of his Falcon &) see JFK, &/or to see Hickey (holding his AR15). Otherwise, if the JFK limo or Queen Mary did not stop/slow, then they would have passed the rail bridge & been on Stemmons before Hoffman got out of his Falcon.
Anyhow, it seems that Hoffman did indeed get a glimpse of JFK &/or the AR15, rather than seeing the rears of the cars far away disappearing up Stemmons past the rail bridge.
And, it makes sense that the jfklimo or Queen Mary or both turned their lights off -- this might also turn the siren off -- turning the siren(s) off would help the agents to talk (about the direction to hozzie).
Yes, Hoffman was there, driving his Falcon. Duzz Hoffman's book have a pix of his Falcon? A pix might confirm that the Falcon seen in Bell is indeed (the same as) Hoffman's Falcon.
I wonder who was Hoffman's passenger -- it was a big guy.
PENN JONES T H E CONTINUING INQUIRY VOLUME IV, NUMBER 9 APRIL 22, 1980 THE STOP-AND-GO MOTORCADE by Gary Mack
When retired Dallas Police Officer Earle V. Brown told me the motorcade stopped on the Stemmons Freeway access ramp (see March 1980 TCI), my first thought was verification. From all written information, including the Warren Commission volumes, there's no direct indication whatsoever that such an event really happened. The TCI printing deadline was moved back some 10 days to accommodate all I knew at that time.
Afterward, I called Brown again to ask if he was absolutely certain about what he saw. He said he'd been thinking about it for the past week and there was no doubt - the motorcade, with the Kennedy limousine in front, came to a halt for some 30 seconds.
Brawn didn't remember any specifics - there may have been one or two motorcycles, he couldn't recall anyone getting out of a car, one of the men had what appeared to be a big automatic rifle. But the two men in the front seat of the limousine were talking and gesturing, and that's why Brown concluded, right then, they didn't know the location of the nearest hospital. Secret Service guidelines, of course, required that knowledge.
3 I'd heard that Jesse Curry can be reasonable with critics and remembered that his wife had called our radio station two years ago to say thanks for treating her husband fairly on our talk shows. So, seeking verification of Brown's story, I called the former Dallas Chief of Police. Since this was to be our first discussion, I decided not to press the man too hard for answers. He's in the phone book, I dialed the number and Chief Curry himself answered. If he recognized my name or the radio station, he gave no indication. He did agree to answer a few questions. When asked if his car was ever behind Kennedy's, Curry denied it by repeating his Warren Commission testimony that he led the motorcade to Parkland. When I next told him some "newly discovered" films and photographs showed he pulled to his left in the Triple Underpass, slowed down, then speeded up and cut in between JFK and his Secret Service escort car, Curry still denied being behind Kennedy.
There was no real reason to argue the point, so I asked about the speed of the motorcade out of Dealey Plaza and on up to Stemmons. Curry said they were accelerating "pretty good" until the motorcycle officer pulled up and they talked briefly. He didn't remember the officer's name, even when I mentioned Martin, Chaney and Jackson. "I leaned out my window and said to him 'Were those shots?' and he said 'Yes and the President's hurt pretty bad.' And I said 'Well get us to the hospitall' "
I asked where this conversation took place and he said "somewhere just before Stemmons." %'he big question, how fast were you going, made him pause before answering "Probably '^tive or six miles an hour."
When told of Officer Brown's account, Curry denied they stopped, but revised his speed estimate to "pretty slow, maybe two to three miles an hour."
Before I could ask him to think about it more carefully, Curry unexpectedly volunteered "You know, they didn't even know where the hospital wasi" "There have been rumors about………
…………….. *>“In the telephone conversation not long before he died Curry confirmed to me that another police officer had witnessed [second hand testimony] the motorcade came to a virtual halt on the *access ramp to the Stemmens*. Patrolman Earl Brown was on the railroad overpass which spans Stemmons (not the triple underpass) and saw the cars come to a complete stop for nearly 30 seconds as it approached him.
He told this information to Earl Golz of the Dallas Morning News, and repeated it to me when I called him for verification. Unknown to me was that Jim Bowles, in his reconstruction had already allowed for 15-20 seconds for the temporary stop in addition to the time it took from the Plaza to the access road.
Curry told me they slowed down for two reasons: to find out from motorcycle officer if anyone was hurt, and to inform the Secret Service of the location of the nearest hospital.”
NOTE: The access ramp to the Stemmons FWY is some 700 feet beyond the Pavilion where Zapruder filmed the JFK head shot – and some 400 feet beyond the triple underpass. Earl Brown was 400 feet to the right on another railroad overpass.
In reading Vince Palamara’s ‘Fifty-nine Witnesses: Delay on Elm Street’ , I see enough controversy between “the car slowed down” to “the car stopped momentarily” to conclude that choosing which testimony is correct is a matter of the bias of the person attempting to make a case one way or the other…………….
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I am thinking that the only possibly helpful bit of the whole Hoffman saga is his mention that Queen Mary stopped, & turned its warning lights off, ie turned its siren off. Hoffman would see that the lights were turned off, but being deaf would not know that the siren was turned off. So, i smell some truth here. Hoffman concocted most of his sad story by reading articles over a number of years. But, was there ever anything written about the Queen Mary stopping on the onramp? – i don’t think so. So, i think that Hoffman saw something with his own eyes. Being deaf he would not have been able to eavesdrop on (at least 6) gawkers talking amongst themselves near Hoffman's Lookout on the overpass (plus say 60 gawkers in the 3 car queues blocked at the rail bridge).
Earle Brown on the rail bridge said that the "whole motorcade" stopped on the on-ramp (access ramp) for praps 30 seconds.
The "whole motorcade" would have been (1) JFK limo, (2) Curry in lead car, (3) Queen Mary, (4) VP limo, & praps (5) the VP follow-up car with SS agents, & praps later (6) a patrol bike (if it caught up during the stoppage).
Here above i assume that (2) the lead car has a little earlier cut in between the JFK limo & Queen Mary.
Problem-1. Hoffman "said" (in his book i think) that when the Queen Mary was below him the JFK limo had already passed the rail bridge (ie the JFK limo was over 100 yd ahead of Queen Mary). Or, praps Hoffman meant that when the Queen Mary stopped the JFK limo kept going & therefore was soon a long way ahead. In any case Hoffman's version of the stoppage is not the same as Brown's version (Brown said that the whole motorcade stopped).
Problem-2. Hoffman duznt mention the lead car, nor the VP limo & its SS follow-up car. Or praps he duz mention them in his book (i haven’t redd his book).
I don’t remember patrolman Murphy on the overpass over the onramp ever mentioning that the lead car cut in front of Queen Mary before Queen Mary reached the eastern side of the overpass where Murphy was standing (no big deal). Murphy (after Queen Mary had passed under him) probly ran 24 yd over to the western side of the overpass in say 7 sec to catch another glimpse of the JFK limo.
Problem-3. Had the motorcade stopped (near say Hoffman's Lookout) then Murphy (after he ran over to the western barrier) would have had time for a good view looking down on the confusion. But Murphy never mentions running over, & duznt mention any such stoppage & confusion.
How would a stoppage look? Praps the lead car pulled up next to the JFK limo, & praps Curry said follow us to the hospital, & praps then the lead car took the lead again (ie it had been in the lead when it entered the triple underpass). The onramp is wide enuff for the lead car to pass the JFK limo, & in any case the left kerb has a semi-mountable profile that accommodates passing.
So, i reckon that Hoffman was indeed somewhere on the overpass next to the onramp, & saw Queen Mary (probly already) stopped, & saw Queen Mary turn its warning lights off. But Hoffman forgot about other details. I doubt that Hickey pointed the AR15 at Hoffman. I doubt that Hoffman ran towards Brown waving his arms. I doubt that Hoffman made an early exit in his Falcon, etc.
SSA Hill is still alive. Someone should ask him whether the motorcade stopped on the onramp. However, i suspect that such a stoppage would have been hushed up – koz it would have been yet another failure of the SS (say Failure-4 of 10), ie not knowing how to get to the nearest emergency hospital.
A motorcade stoppage on the onramp would do little to help our understanding of what happened in Dealey Plaza re the jfk shots (ie the attempted assassination by Oswald & the accidental homicide by Hickey).
But the existence of the stoppage might help our understanding of ….
(1) the ensuing coverup of the accidental homicide, &
(2) the utter litany of failures re the facts & factoids, &
(3) the stupidity of many researchers & supposed experts (ie on this forum & other forums), &
(4) the ongoing hysteria of dullards with broken BS-meters arguing in ever increasing circles re their favorit dogma re the first shot & a magic bullet & a big hole in the back of the head & a shot from the front & a shooter at the paling fence etc.
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I have advised that Officer Murphy ran across Stemmons east to west as soon as JFK & Queen Mary passed under him -- & Murphy then stood at the western barrier looking north (Bell frame).
Officer Brown said that the jfklimo & other cars stopped for 30 seconds, just north of Murphy.
But Murphy duznt mention any such stopping in his testimony.
Murphy duznt mention that Murphy ran across to the west side.
He says that soon after the shots the traffic banked up to past his position, but, there is no such banking up in Bell's footage, not for perhaps one minute after the shots.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Murphy.pdf
TESTIMONY OF JOE E. MURPHY
The testimony of Joe E. Murphy was taken at 950 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. BALL. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, SO help you God?
Mr. MUBPHY. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name and address for the record?
Mr. MUBPHY. Joe E. Murphy, 2509 Winthrop ; (spelling) W-i-n-t-h-r-o-p, Drive.
Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?
Mr. MUBPHY. Police officer.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Department?
Mr. MURPHY. I am in my 21st year.
Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. MUBPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were.you born?
Mr. MWPHY. Dallas.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?
Mr. MWPHY. High school-St. Joseph High School here in Dallas.
Mr. BALL. You went all through school here in Dallas, did you?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, sir; that’s right.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of high school?
Mr. MUEPHY. Well, I played pro baseball for about 2 years, Class D-West Texas and New Mexico League. After that I went to work for the Humble Oil and Refining Co. in Baytown. I was down there about 2 years and came back to Dallas and then I went to work on the police force.
Mr. BALL. And you have been there ever since?
Mr. MUBPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You are a patrolman, are you?
Mr. MUBPHY. That’s right.
Mr. BALL. Do you have a three-wheeler?
Mr. MUBPHY. A three-wheeler-yes.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did they assign you to some post?
Mr. MUBPHY. Yes, I was assigned to the overpass-the Stemmons Freeway overpass northbound at Elm Street-over Elm.
Mr. BALL. What instructions did you have?
Mr. MURPHY. It was to keep anyone and everyone off of the overpass and to keep traffic moving until the motorcade arrived.
Mr. BALL. Now, you have a map here which you have drawn for us to show your position, is that right? (Reporter marked instrument-Murphy Exhibit A, for identification.)
Mr. MWPHY. Yes; that’s right.
Mr. BALL. And you have drawn a position there as to where you were standing, is that right?
Mr. MUBPHY. That’s right.
Mr. BALL. And where you parked your three-wheeler?
Mr. MuaPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. All right, mark the place where you were standing as Position 1, using an “X”.
Mr. MURPHY. All right. (Witness Murphy marked the diagram 88 requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr. BALL. And your three-wheeler was beside you?
Mr. MUBPHY. Yes; right on the shoulder.
Mr. BALL. Wexe there any other ofllcers on that overpass?
Mr. MIUBPHY. Yes; there were two more about-oh, a 100 feet south of meto slow traffic or to stop traffic whenever the motorcade entered the Stemmons Freewq north entrance.
Mr. BALL. Now where were they located-and, did they as the motorcade came down Elm Street, did they go into the highway and stop traffic?
Mr. BIUEPHY. Yes; they did.
Mr. BALL. Will you put their positions on the Stemmons Freeway overpass at the time the motorcade came west on Elm, and mark it (2) and (3).
Mr. MUBPHY. (Marked diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of those officers that were (2) and (3) ?
Mr. MUBPHY. I can’t recall. I know them but I can’t recall who they were.
Mr. BALL. Were they three-wheeler oflicers too, do they drive three-wheelers?
Mr. MWPHY. I believe both of them three-wheelers.
Mr. BALL. And as the motorcade came west on Elm, did they stop traffic on Stemmons Freeway?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, their main job was to slow it and let the officers farther down the freeway-they would stop it, but tratXc approaches pretty fast and they were to slow traffic and let the officers then stop it. They did-they-they stepped into and were slowing the traffic as the motorcade came under that railroad overpass.
Mr. BALL. Did they ever stop traffic completely?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, it stopped-it stopped itself back down when all the excitement-someone down there-they blocked the whole street and then it backed up, is what it did-backed up to our position.
Mr. BALL. On Stemmons Freeway?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Now Position (1) is where you were standing?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Were there any people standing on the overpass over Elm, on the Stemmons Freeway overpass over Elm, as the motorcade came down?
Mr. MURPHY. No: there was no one standing there prior to the arrival of the motorcade or after the motorcade arrived.
Mr. BALL. The only one standing there was you?
Mr. MURPHY. It was me.
Mr. BALL. Now, let’s go to the railroad overpass, and first of all, as you turned west on Elm from Houston, what is the first overpass that you encounter?
Mr. MUBPHY. There is a railroad overpass-all of the trains entering and leaving the Union Station cross over that overpass.
Mr. BALL. Were there any officers on that overpass?
Mr. MUBPHY. There were two.
Mr. BALL. Can you mark their positions, approximately, as you saw them before the motorcade arrived?
Mr. MUBPHY. As best I could see--one was on each side-one here and one over on this side.
Mr. BALL. AI1 right, mark the position of the o5cer on the west side asPosition (4), and the one on the east side as Position (5).
(The Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr. BALL. Were these uniformed officers?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, they were.
Mr. BALL. Do you know their names?
Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. BALL. Did they have three-wheelers?
Mr. MURPHY. No; I couldn’t say.
Mr. BALL. Now, were there any other people besides the two officers on this railroad overpass?
Mr. MURPHY. There were about 8 or l&from what I could s-about 8 or 10 men dressed in the overalls and they appeared to be railroad employeees.
Mr. BALL. Can you mark in their positions, approximately?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, they were in a group right in the center of Elm Street.
Mr. BALL. They were all together?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes ; it appeared that they were in a group (Witness Murphy drew circle indicating presence of persons heretofore mentioned as requested by Counsel Ball).
Mr. BALL. You have drawn a circle there?
Mr. MUBPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And mark that (6).
(Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr. BALL. And in that circle there were about how many?
Mr. MUBPHY. 8 to 10 persons.
Mr. BALL. There were 8 to 10 persons approximately, dressed in overalls?
Mr. MUBPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people on the railroad overpass?
Mr. MWPHY. No, sir; I didn’t.
Mr. BALL. Could you see the motorcade on Houston from your position (1) ?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes; I could.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President’s car turn the corner of Main and Houston?
Mr. MUEPHY. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. That was in your view, was it?
Mr. McnwH~. Yes; it was
Mr. BALL. Was the corner of Houston and Elm within your view?
Mr. MURPHY. Just a portion of it-you lose sight of it there for just a few seconds, as it makes the turn. Well, you lose sight of it. There is some kind of a-on that part there is a concrete, oh, I don’t know what you would call it-kind of a framework-it appears to be.
Mr. BALL. In other words, there is an obstruction to your view?
Mr. MWPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. From where you were standing at Position (1) ?
Mr. MUBPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And the corner of the intersection of Houston and Elm?
Mr. MUBPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Were you able to see the President’s car after it had turned west on Elm from Houston?
Mr. MUBPHY. Well, again there, you just get a very short view of it before it goes out of sight then, going down that hill.
Mr. BALL. You heard shots, did you?
Mr. MUBPHY. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Now, from the time you saw the President’s car turn north on Houston from Main and until you heard the shots, what direction were you looking ?
Mr. MWPHY. I was looking in an easterly direction.
Mr. BALL. Toward what?
Mr. MWPHY. Toward the motorcadetowards the President’s car.
Mr. BALL. Did you keep the motorcade in sight at all times?
Mr. MUBPHY. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anything unusual occur in this group of railroad men where you have marked Position (6) ?
Mr. MWPHY. No, I didn’t-I did not.
Mr. BALL. Anybody armed there? Mr. MURPHY. No, not that I could tell.
Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what direction the policemen were looking who were at Position (4) and (5) ?
Mr. MURPHY. They appeared to be looking in an easterly direction also.
Mr. BALL. The direction of the motorcade?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And dni rou see other individuals on that railroad overpass except the ones you have described?
Mr. MURPHY. No, just that group that I have described.
Mr. BALL. Now, you say you heard something-heard shots?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes.
Mr. BAI.L. Describe to me your best recollection as to what you heard?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, I heard-I knew they were shots as soon as I heard them, but I thought at first it was-it sounded like a shotgun, and then I got the three shots and there were so many echoes and everything-then I did determine it sounded more like a rifle. I do quite a bit of hunting and I determined it sounded more like a rifle.
Mr. BALL. Those shots came from what direction?
Mr. MURPHY. Well. just from the direction I was looking-that’s all I could tell. They came from an easterly direction, from where I was standing.
Mr. BALL. And were there echoes?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, quite a few.
Mr. BALL. Did the men who were on the overpass at Position (5) do anything?
Mr. MURPHY. I don’t recall--on that overpass--right after the shots, I did see then a group of people running up the side of this embankment on Elm and running. That would be here-right in here.
Mr. BALL. To the north of Elm?
Mr. MURPHY. To the north of Elm.
Mr. BALL. Would you put an arrow showing the direction they were running and mark that arrow as “‘7”-that’s the direction you saw people running?
Mr. MTRPHY. (Marked diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.) Yes, they were running up in this direction and then in behind this Book Depository. Oh, I could tell a lot of them were photographers, because I could see their cameras in their hands and then a number of other people, and then I did see some officers also running in that direction.
Mr. BALL. Did you see what the railroad men did who were at Position (6) on your map?
Mr. MURPHY. No; because right at that time that traffic began backing up on the freeway and I had turned in to try to keep them moving, but I found that I couldn’t move them because it was blocked down below me, north of me and there was traffic just stacked up from where the other officers had it stopped there.
Mr. BAL.L. How long did you stay at your position?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, I stayed until, I guess, it was about maybe 3 minutes after we heard the shots and then the broadcast came over the radio that there had been a shooting-the President had been shot-and then I went towards the Book Depository. I got on my motor and went towards the Book Depository then-off of the freeway; and then was there up around the Book Depository for the nextI would say hour or hour and a half at least.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses?
Mr. MCRPHY. I did pick up or talk to three or four people that said they had seen things and said they heard different things, and I took them to the sheriff’s office across the street.
Mr. BALL. Do you knew what their names were?
Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I couldn’t tell you. I turned them over to the investigators there with the sheriff’s department-the district attorney’s investigators, that’s who they were.
Mr. BALL. You didn’t make any notes of their names?
Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I didn’t.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember now what any of them told you?
Mr. MLRPHY. Well, one man in particular-he was standing on Elm-he was standing right about here where we have marked Position (7), and he claimed that he heard two shots above him and behind him, and one shot from up around the edge of this park, and another man claimed that he had been standing nearly in this same position-he was standing here on the street and he claimed that all the shots he heard came from overhead to his rear.
Mr. BALL. That would be near the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, towards that Book Depository.
Mr. ISALL. Did you go on the police radio and make any announcement or statement?
Mr. MURPHY. So, sir; I didn’t. It was so jammed, I didn’t make any.
Mr. BALL. I would like to have this marked as Exhibit A to your deposition, which is illustrative of your testimony. (Instrument marked by the reporter as Murphy Exhibit No. A, for identification.)
Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you can come in and look it over and sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature if you wish. It is your optionwhat would you like to do?
Mr. MURPHY. Well, if it’s necessary, I will sign it. If it isn’t, that’s perfectly all right with me.
Mr. BALL. It isn’t necessary.
Mr. MURPHY. Well, that’s all right then.
Mr. BALL. Then, you will waive signature?
Mr. MURPHY. Yes, sir.
Mr. B&L. Thanks very much for coming in.
Mr. MWPHY. All right<ertainly.
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Depending on who was interviewing Hoffman, he was a bit flexible on indicating where Kennedy was shot. ::)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6YYXdgn/The-Hoff.gif)
JohnM
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Hoffman Also Appears To Indicate That His Alleged Fence Shooter Was Left Handed: From Video Time 1.00
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Hoffman Also Appears To Indicate That His Alleged Fence Shooter Was Left Handed: From Video Time 1.00
Thanks Duncan, that video made me laugh and shows how easy it is to pollute this case with pure nonsense.
Btw what happened to the links to your Youtube videos because your channel has hundreds of excellent informative CT and LN videos?
JohnM
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Thanks Duncan, that video made me laugh and shows how easy it is to pollute this case with pure nonsense.
Btw what happened to the links to your Youtube videos because your channel has hundreds of excellent informative CT and LN videos?
JohnM
When ridicule substitutes for "facts".......
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When ridicule substitutes for "facts".......
Ok Martin, if not ridicule, exactly what facts do you derive from the following contradiction?
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6YYXdgn/The-Hoff.gif)
JohnM
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Ok Martin, if not ridicule, exactly what facts do you derive from the following contradiction?
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6YYXdgn/The-Hoff.gif)
JohnM
I don't derive anything from it. Both are approximations that indicate a general area.
You don't expect an eye-witness to be 100% correct every time, right?
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I don't derive anything from it. Both are approximations that indicate a general area.
You don't expect an eye-witness to be 100% correct every time, right?
Thanks, that explains a lot.
JohnhM
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Thanks, that explains a lot.
JohnhM
Explains what?
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Hoffman Also Appears To Indicate That His Alleged Fence Shooter Was Left Handed: From Video Time 1.00
Notice that Hoffman seems to indicate [0:35] that he parked his Falcon next to his Lookout (his Lookout is where he is sitting on the concrete barricade). Whereas at other times Hoffman says he parked his Falcon on the onramp near the railbridge. But praps Hoffman had been misquoted here, praps he had actually gesticulated that he parked his bum (not Falcon) on the barricade.
Anyhow, Hoffman's Lookout was not visible to Bell, & therefor we karnt see in Bell's footage whether there was a car parked at or near Hoffman's Lookout. Hoffman's Lookout was obscured by the trees on the grassy knoll. The trees obscured Hoffman's Lookout plus at least 30 ft south of Hoffman's Lookout (see Bell frame below).
Also, notice that in this youtube Hoffman duznt say anything about the motorcade halting below him -- he says it passed below him [2:05]. Whereas at other times he had mentioned that the motorcade halted, or at least that Queen Mary halted (& turned its signals off). But praps Hoffman considered that passing includes halting – which it kind of duz.
At [1:40]. Hoffman regurgitates his silly story re a shooter throwing a rifle to a railroad worker who takes the rifle apart & puts it in a toolbox. The shooter & the railroad worker would have been seen by about 14 guys standing about 30 ft to 100 ft away on the triple underpass. Hoffman duznt mention the 14 guys.
Hoffman saw the shooter standing in the shade of the trees near the far end of the paling fence, all obscured by parked cars – but Hoffman did not see the 14 guys standing much closer to Hoffman, in the bright sunshine.
And Hoffman saw a puff of smoke (a shot), even tho the puff would have been going downish below the level of the top of the fence, & it would have been going away from Hoffman (towards JFK), & the puff would have been in shade.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5Ln6Z5t/bell-of-murphy-falcon-passenger-gawkers.jpg)
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Another view.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCxDCdBn/Stemmons-overpass.jpg)
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(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/hoffy.jpg)
Watch Video From 1.34
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Ed Hoffman is left-handed. He's just demonstrating what he saw not that the shooter was a lefty.
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Ed Hoffman is left-handed. He's just demonstrating what he saw not that the shooter was a lefty.
It doesn't matter if Hoffman is left or right handed, or even if he is ambidextrous.
If "he's just demonstrating what he saw" then he is clearly demonstrating visually to the Camera for all to see, the actions of a left hand trigger pulling Shooter. Fact! :)
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It becomes a "fact" that a left handed Hoffman demonstrating to a TV camera what he saw means the shooter was left-handed. Great logic.
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It becomes a "fact" that a left handed Hoffman demonstrating to a TV camera what he saw means the shooter was left-handed. Great logic.
No - It simply means that it is a fact that Hoffman was visually depicting the actions of a man shooting with his left finger on the Trigger.
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Recently i saw a few old mentions on forums re the jfklimo &/or Queen Mary stopping or slowing on Stemmons Fwy onramp below Hoffman's Lookout. And, i remembered that Hoffman had on at least one occasion (in youtubes or in books etc) "mentioned" that Queen Mary had stopped below him on the Stemmons onramp.
This "mention" by Hoffman is praps the most important bit of info re the whole Hoffman saga (ie his 100% krapp story of seeing a shooter shoot a shot over the paling fence etc).
It confirms that Hoffman was on Stemmons, but where? -- there are 6 possibilities – Hoffman was…..
1. Sitting at Hoffman's Lookout (out of view in the Bell footage, hidden by trees).
2. The Gawker, ie the guy (seen in Bell) sitting on the western barricade of Stemmons overpass (20 yd south of Hoffman's Lookout).
3. The guy driving the falcon (Falcon seen in Bell) very slowly near (2) & probly then stopping between (2) & (1).
4. The passenger that (seen in Bell) jumps out of the Falcon near (2).
5. One of the say 6 guys (seen in Bell) walking south up Stemmons overpass near (1) & (2).
6. Somewhere on the overpass nearer the rail bridge (with all of the queuers) where the Fwy was blocked 100 yd north.
I reckon that Hoffman was driving the Falcon (2). If the JFK limo or Queen Mary stopped or nearly (by up to 30 sec) then that would have given Hoffman a chance to (stop & get out of his Falcon &) see JFK, &/or to see Hickey (holding his AR15). Otherwise, if the JFK limo or Queen Mary did not stop/slow, then they would have passed the rail bridge & been on Stemmons before Hoffman got out of his Falcon.
Anyhow, it seems that Hoffman did indeed get a glimpse of JFK &/or the AR15, rather than seeing the rears of the cars far away disappearing up Stemmons past the rail bridge.
And, it makes sense that the jfklimo or Queen Mary or both turned their lights off -- this might also turn the siren off -- turning the siren(s) off would help the agents to talk (about the direction to hozzie).
Yes, Hoffman was there, driving his Falcon. Duzz Hoffman's book have a pix of his Falcon? A pix might confirm that the Falcon seen in Bell is indeed (the same as) Hoffman's Falcon.
I wonder who was Hoffman's passenger -- it was a big guy.
PENN JONES T H E CONTINUING INQUIRY VOLUME IV, NUMBER 9 APRIL 22, 1980 THE STOP-AND-GO MOTORCADE by Gary Mack
When retired Dallas Police Officer Earle V. Brown told me the motorcade stopped on the Stemmons Freeway access ramp (see March 1980 TCI), my first thought was verification. From all written information, including the Warren Commission volumes, there's no direct indication whatsoever that such an event really happened. The TCI printing deadline was moved back some 10 days to accommodate all I knew at that time.
Afterward, I called Brown again to ask if he was absolutely certain about what he saw. He said he'd been thinking about it for the past week and there was no doubt - the motorcade, with the Kennedy limousine in front, came to a halt for some 30 seconds.
Brawn didn't remember any specifics - there may have been one or two motorcycles, he couldn't recall anyone getting out of a car, one of the men had what appeared to be a big automatic rifle. But the two men in the front seat of the limousine were talking and gesturing, and that's why Brown concluded, right then, they didn't know the location of the nearest hospital. Secret Service guidelines, of course, required that knowledge.
3 I'd heard that Jesse Curry can be reasonable with critics and remembered that his wife had called our radio station two years ago to say thanks for treating her husband fairly on our talk shows. So, seeking verification of Brown's story, I called the former Dallas Chief of Police. Since this was to be our first discussion, I decided not to press the man too hard for answers. He's in the phone book, I dialed the number and Chief Curry himself answered. If he recognized my name or the radio station, he gave no indication. He did agree to answer a few questions. When asked if his car was ever behind Kennedy's, Curry denied it by repeating his Warren Commission testimony that he led the motorcade to Parkland. When I next told him some "newly discovered" films and photographs showed he pulled to his left in the Triple Underpass, slowed down, then speeded up and cut in between JFK and his Secret Service escort car, Curry still denied being behind Kennedy.
There was no real reason to argue the point, so I asked about the speed of the motorcade out of Dealey Plaza and on up to Stemmons. Curry said they were accelerating "pretty good" until the motorcycle officer pulled up and they talked briefly. He didn't remember the officer's name, even when I mentioned Martin, Chaney and Jackson. "I leaned out my window and said to him 'Were those shots?' and he said 'Yes and the President's hurt pretty bad.' And I said 'Well get us to the hospitall' "
I asked where this conversation took place and he said "somewhere just before Stemmons." %'he big question, how fast were you going, made him pause before answering "Probably '^tive or six miles an hour."
When told of Officer Brown's account, Curry denied they stopped, but revised his speed estimate to "pretty slow, maybe two to three miles an hour."
Before I could ask him to think about it more carefully, Curry unexpectedly volunteered "You know, they didn't even know where the hospital wasi" "There have been rumors about………
…………….. *>“In the telephone conversation not long before he died Curry confirmed to me that another police officer had witnessed [second hand testimony] the motorcade came to a virtual halt on the *access ramp to the Stemmens*. Patrolman Earl Brown was on the railroad overpass which spans Stemmons (not the triple underpass) and saw the cars come to a complete stop for nearly 30 seconds as it approached him.
He told this information to Earl Golz of the Dallas Morning News, and repeated it to me when I called him for verification. Unknown to me was that Jim Bowles, in his reconstruction had already allowed for 15-20 seconds for the temporary stop in addition to the time it took from the Plaza to the access road.
Curry told me they slowed down for two reasons: to find out from motorcycle officer if anyone was hurt, and to inform the Secret Service of the location of the nearest hospital.”
NOTE: The access ramp to the Stemmons FWY is some 700 feet beyond the Pavilion where Zapruder filmed the JFK head shot – and some 400 feet beyond the triple underpass. Earl Brown was 400 feet to the right on another railroad overpass.
In reading Vince Palamara’s ‘Fifty-nine Witnesses: Delay on Elm Street’ , I see enough controversy between “the car slowed down” to “the car stopped momentarily” to conclude that choosing which testimony is correct is a matter of the bias of the person attempting to make a case one way or the other…………….
The following info re the motorcade stopping on the Stemmons onramp is from the www & forums.
DPD Officer Earle Brown, on the railway overpass above Stemmons, told Earl Golz in March 1980 that he saw the limo and 4 other cars stop on the Stemmons on-ramp for at least 30 secs.
Brown later repeated his story for Gary Mack.
Officer Doug Jackson told Mack in 1981 that he and Chaney raced after the lead car, caught up with it after about 30 secs, and Chaney spoke through the window to Curry.
Curry told another researcher in 1979 that Chaney caught up with him as they began climbing the Stemmons on-ramp.
Curry told Mack that he slowed down in order to find out if anyone had been hit, as he was unaware that anyone had been hit until Chaney told him.
He also said he then had to tell the limousine driver, Secret Service agent Bill Greer, how to get to Parkland Hospital, before issuing “Go to hospital” order.
Curry told the Warren Commission that he did not transmit on Channel 2 until after he spoke to Motorcycle Officer Jim Chaney.
DPD Officer Courson said the lead car had slowed sufficiently for him to catch it on the Stemmons access road, and Courson was 100-120 feet behind McLain in the motorcade, and McLain was himself about 140 feet behind the Presidential limo when the shots were fired. Courson was approx. 80 yds behind JFK at Z-313.
So, it makes sense that the JFK limo stopped for at least 30 sec on the onramp,
to get directions from the SSA agents on Queen Mary, which also stopped (probably side by side).
Both limos turned off their flashing lights & sirens so that they could converse (Hoffman).
Using their radios would have been quicker, but would have been public & embarrassing.
Why did Curry (in the lead car) stop on the onramp & ask Officer Chaney if anyone had been hurt?
Curry could have driven up to the rear of the 2 limos & asked them directly.
But i suppose that Curry did not suspect that JFK & Connally had been shot, Curry was probly only worried about the general public etc getting shot.
JFK & Connally ducking down out of sight was of no concern.
Anyhow, it appears that the guys in Queen Mary were no wiser re the best way to get to Parklands.
So, Greer & Kellerman must have hollered to Curry & Co when the lead car finally reached the limos.
Curry then probly told Greer to follow the lead car, & the lead car probly took the lead again (Curry was the driver).
And it makes sense that the JFK limo was stopped for at least 30 sec.
I made a new thread re the motorcade stopping for 30 sec on the Stemmons onramp.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3885.msg153369.html#msg153369
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I guess Jean hill is the one you are saying is genuine but unreliable . Hoffman and Oliver the dodgy self proclaimed witnesses .
I can certainly understand any witness reliability being questioned , i dont think any witness should just be automatically thought to be 100% accurate and reliable . Because as we know witnesses are rarely 100% accurate in what they say they saw or heard , and one witness will often contradict another . That said because two witnesses may appear to be contradicting each other it does not necessarily then follow that one or indeed both were wrong , both may have been correct in what they said but just saw different things from a different vantage .
When it comes to this case certainly witnesses get attacked , or labeled unreliable or liars , some times i feel its unwarranted and unfair . But some times a witness has indeed done some thing that warrants their criticism . In that sense i can understand some of the criticism for example of Jean hill . Her story seems to have evolved over the years where she added new details . However on the other hand she has also been attacked to a degree unfairly . For example in regards the dog she thought she saw , on the day she saw something for split seconds flowers and a cuddly toy and thought it was a small dog . This is one of the things about humans some times our eyes play tricks on us especially if we only see a thing for split seconds .She naively on that tragic day not very long after witnessing the shooting was asked to recount what she observed , at that time mary moormon was stood next to her , i am not aware of mary contradicting her at that time , but people can feel free to chime in on that as perhaps i did not see an interview on that day in which she did . But jean rather naively told the reporter that she thought she saw a small dog in the limo , she said she knew she must be wrong . She was then asked to repeat what she said for the camera , she said ABOUT THE DOG ALSO ? and she was told yes . To this day that is one of the things she is attacked on . But yes on other matters her reliability is attacked by LN and in some cases i cant say its unwarranted .
But by the same token our LN friends often refuse to criticize their own witnesses who have been shown to be some what unreliable or arguably wholly unreliable .They cite a witness today as reliable and credible and then tomorrow will pop up and attack the same witness . For example Wes frazier or Earlene roberts , and 10th and patton witnesses such as Markham and Reynolds .I dont know if this is a thread for a discussion in general of the reliability or unreliability or the the very least questionable nature of all witnesses in this case , maybe it is best to keep it to the 3 above mentioned witnesses in the video Duncan posted . As those three really could fill up a thread each , and i know they have been discussed at length already on this forum .But we should be having open and frank discussions about witnesses .
However we know hill was indeed there on elm street . Mr hoffman is open to debate because we just cant see him on film or photo on that bridge in the distance .So his presence cant be proven but neither then logically can it be disproven , because we did not see a person it does not automatically mean they were never there . So we have to then look at what he claimed .But in doing so we need to remember that this man was deaf and could not speak .a non deaf person can hear sounds , shots , voices , screams etc , Mr hoffman could do none of that . All such a person could do was look and try to make some sense of the very scary and crazy situation that would unfolded before them . And we have to consider that as he could not speak that every thing he had to tell would have had to be interpreted by a third party .
In regard Miss oliver . I am aware of why LN attack her reliability . But again as with Miss hill some times it is unfair , some times i can understand why they might have a problem with her for sure . But however one thought always strikes me in regards to Miss oliver . LN say she is not the Babushka woman , a lady who undeniably existed and was there on elm street . But in 60 years i am unaware of any woman or indeed the Family of any woman to come forward and call her a liar . And say I WAS THE BABUSHKA LADY , MY MOTHER WAS THE BABUSHKA LADY , MY SISTER WAS THE BABUSHKA LADY . This person was feet from jfk as he was shot and killed , seen on film and im sure has been talked about countless times on tv and on sites like this over 60 years now . But not a single person (also claiming to be the babushka lady ) has come forward to my knowledge to say she is a liar .
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Beverly Oliver's 1977 HSCA Interview
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/digitalcollections_baylor15.jpg)
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Ed Hoffman was a credible witness. The problems with Hoffman's account--the alleged changes in his story, etc.--resulted partly from faulty sign-language interpretation and partly from deliberate misrepresentation. It is amazing that WC apologists even attack a deaf man who immediately tried to tell his story to his dentist soon after the shooting and who immediately shared his story with family members when he got home. Here's a good article by Mark Arnold on Hoffman's experience:
https://fromanativeson.com/2023/07/14/jfk-evidence-series-1-eyewitness-to-tragedy-the-ed-hoffman-story-by-mark-arnold/ (https://fromanativeson.com/2023/07/14/jfk-evidence-series-1-eyewitness-to-tragedy-the-ed-hoffman-story-by-mark-arnold/)
Says Arnold,
The one constant in the whole Ed Hoffman narrative, is that if one takes the time and care necessary to understand him, his story has never changed: that on Friday, November 22, 1963, he was standing on Stemmons Freeway with an excellent view east, into the area behind the picket fence atop the grassy knoll, and there saw two men work together, one of them shooting at the President with a rifle; the other breaking it down and making his getaway through the rail yard.
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Ed Hoffman was a credible witness.
??? https://www.jfk-assassination.net/hoffman.htm (https://www.jfk-assassination.net/hoffman.htm)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/hoffy.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Hoff.png)
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??? https://www.jfk-assassination.net/hoffman.htm (https://www.jfk-assassination.net/hoffman.htm)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/hoffy.jpg)
No, it is not amazing at all. Their attention could have been drawn to any number of other events in the plaza after the shots rang out. It is not unusual for a group of people who witness a major event to notice different aspects of the event and to miss other aspects of it.
You choose to believe that Hoffman made up his story, even though several people who knew him, along with family members, said that he urgently tried to share with them what he had seen after the shooting.
If Hoffman had seen Oswald in the sixth-floor window, you guys would be falling all over yourselves to cite Hoffman's urgent efforts to immediately tell others about what he'd seen, and you would (correctly) argue that those efforts indicate he was sincere and truthful. But because his account destroys the lone-gunman theory, you look for any excuse to attack him and to reject his account.
Did you even read Mark Arnold's article? You should also read Casey Quinlan and Brian Edwards' book on Ed Hoffman titled Beyond the Fence Line.
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Ed Hoffman was a credible witness.
Thumb1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzhHxL2X/Hoffmanheadwound.gif)
JohnM
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This has nothing to do with the credibility of an eyewitnesses story. This is ALL about whether an assassination eyewitness is supporting 1 shooter firing from the snipers nest. If an eyewitness story supports a Conspiracy, this eyewitness is immediately attacked and labeled "Unreliable", "Kooky", "Looney Tunes", "Nut Job", "15 Minutes of Fame Seeker", etc, etc, etc. Lone Nutters are now so desperate that they have even become "Science Deniers" as they attack the Knott Labs Laser 360 Laser SCIENCE which found, "SBT IS IMPOSSIBLE"! With LN's now denying this same SCIENCE that is routinely used in courtrooms across this country on a daily basis, their findings, opinions, witness appraisals, etc, hold absolutely no sway what-so-ever. They are without question Prejudiced and incapable of being objective.
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This has nothing to do with the credibility of an eyewitnesses story. This is ALL about whether an assassination eyewitness is supporting 1 shooter firing from the snipers nest. If an eyewitness story supports a Conspiracy, this eyewitness is immediately attacked and labeled "Unreliable", "Kooky", "Looney Tunes", "Nut Job", "15 Minutes of Fame Seeker", etc, etc, etc. Lone Nutters are now so desperate that they have even become "Science Deniers" as they attack the Knott Labs Laser 360 Laser SCIENCE which found, "SBT IS IMPOSSIBLE"! With LN's now denying this same SCIENCE that is routinely used in courtrooms across this country on a daily basis, their findings, opinions, witness appraisals, etc, hold absolutely no sway what-so-ever. They are without question Prejudiced and incapable of being objective.
With LN's now denying this same SCIENCE that is routinely used in courtrooms across this country on a daily basis, their findings, opinions, witness appraisals, etc, hold absolutely no sway what-so-ever.
Oh really?
Knott Laboratory was hired by John Orr,.....
https://knottlab.com/blog/knott-laboratory-presents-digital-reconstruction-and-findings-on-the-assassination-of-president-john-f-kennedy/
Do a little research into John Orr, and follow the money, then get back to me. LOL!
JohnM
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Oh really?
Knott Laboratory was hired by John Orr,.....
https://knottlab.com/blog/knott-laboratory-presents-digital-reconstruction-and-findings-on-the-assassination-of-president-john-f-kennedy/
Do a little research into John Orr, and follow the money, then get back to me. LOL!
JohnM
YOU are Not challenging the SCIENCE that found, "SBT IS IMPOSSIBLE". CASE CLOSED
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YOU are Not challenging the SCIENCE that found, "SBT IS IMPOSSIBLE". CASE CLOSED
Yeah, the SCIENCE of money, is the SCIENCE being employed here!
Knott Laboratory was hired by John Orr,.....
https://knottlab.com/blog/knott-laboratory-presents-digital-reconstruction-and-findings-on-the-assassination-of-president-john-f-kennedy/
:D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D
JohnM
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Hoffman confirmed Officer Earle Brown that the motorcade stopped on the onramp to Stemmons.
Other than that, Hoffman is full of it.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2886.0.html
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Yeah, the SCIENCE of money, is the SCIENCE being employed here!
Knott Laboratory was hired by John Orr,.....
https://knottlab.com/blog/knott-laboratory-presents-digital-reconstruction-and-findings-on-the-assassination-of-president-john-f-kennedy/
:D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D
JohnM
How many court cases are now being overturned due to using this same Knott Labs Laser 360 SCIENCE to track bullet trajectories?
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How many court cases are now being overturned due to using this same Knott Labs Laser 360 SCIENCE to track bullet trajectories?
Sorry Royell, this never went to court.
The only SCIENCE is satisfying their PAYING client! Hahahaha!
Knott Laboratory was hired by John Orr,.....
https://knottlab.com/blog/knott-laboratory-presents-digital-reconstruction-and-findings-on-the-assassination-of-president-john-f-kennedy/
You LOSE!
JohnM
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It is difficult for me to believe at that distance that Hoffman could see ALL of the detail he described along the picket fence/switch box area. If the distance of 200 yds+ is accurate, that's over 2 football fields. If you have stood on a football field, just eyeballing something goal line-to-goal line causes a person to squint. Now, Hoffman is better than doubling that distance. My own personal experience makes me question this portion of the Hoffman story .
I copied Royell's above comments from my Motorcade Stoppage thread.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3885.0.html
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Hoffman would be unlikely to see (black line) any smoke from a shot (red line) fired away from Hoffman and fired downwards to JFK.
The 13 gawkers on or near the triple underpass (plus the 2 police on the triple underpass)(total is 15) would have seen the shooter/tosser toss the rifle to the tossee.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NqbYXxx/hoffman-s-view-of-smoke.jpg)
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(https://i.postimg.cc/3Jyc9ct4/hoffman-smoke-bond4lg.jpg)
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Hoffman would be unlikely to see (black line) any smoke from a shot (red line) fired away from Hoffman and fired downwards to JFK.
The 13 gawkers on or near the triple underpass (plus the 2 police on the triple underpass)(total is 15) would have seen the shooter/tosser toss the rifle to the tossee.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NqbYXxx/hoffman-s-view-of-smoke.jpg)
The guys atop the Triple Underpass might have had their vision glued on Elm St as everything unfolded down below them. Your claiming these same guys would have seen a possible "rifle toss" on their left side amidst all hell breaking loose below them is iffy at best.
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The guys atop the Triple Underpass might have had their vision glued on Elm St as everything unfolded down below them. Your claiming these same guys would have seen a possible "rifle toss" on their left side amidst all hell breaking loose below them is iffy at best.
The guys on the Triple underpass would have been able to have a good look at Gordon Arnold being kicked by a man with a rifle, a rifle which had a not easy to miss huge barrel, agreed?
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJ73tp0j/view-up-elm-street-from-triple-underpass.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8b7CVZd/gordon-arnold-standing-location.jpg)
JohnM
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The guys atop the Triple Underpass might have had their vision glued on Elm St as everything unfolded down below them. Your claiming these same guys would have seen a possible "rifle toss" on their left side amidst all hell breaking loose below them is iffy at best.
According to Hoffman the tosser/shooter would have taken much time to walk the full length of the fence before tossing to tossee.
Tosser not seen by Holland nor Bowers (nor Hoffman).
Tosser was supposedly still in that carpark when confronted by Officer Smith(?) a minute or two later. Nope.
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The guys on the Triple underpass would have been able to have a good look at Gordon Arnold being kicked by a man with a rifle, a rifle which had a not easy to miss huge barrel, agreed?
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJ73tp0j/view-up-elm-street-from-triple-underpass.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8b7CVZd/gordon-arnold-standing-location.jpg)
JohnM
Do NOT agree. You continue to be behind the curve with regard to Details provided by Arnold during his Sixth Floor Q/A. Also, LOS comes into play.
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Do NOT agree. You continue to be behind the curve with regard to Details provided by Arnold during his Sixth Floor Q/A. Also, LOS comes into play.
You continue to be behind the curve with regard to Details provided by Arnold...
So when Gordon Arnold placed himself here in full view of all the real eyewitnesses and filmed the motorcade was just another lie, WOW!
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8b7CVZd/gordon-arnold-standing-location.jpg)
And don't forget the MASSIVE weapon that Gordon saw!!! Hilarious!
(https://i.postimg.cc/GpjnKG1Z/gordon-arnold-that-big-around.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfPvHCTF/Gordon-Arnold-gatling-gun.gif)
JohnM
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According to Hoffman the tosser/shooter would have taken much time to walk the full length of the fence before tossing to tossee.
Tosser not seen by Holland nor Bowers (nor Hoffman).
Tosser was supposedly still in that carpark when confronted by Officer Smith(?) a minute or two later. Nope.
I believe those guys atop the Triple Underpass remained there longer than they realized. We can see guys standing across the top of the Triple Underpass during the Couch Film segment that shows Officer Haygood straightening up his motorcycle. That's at least 1.5 minutes after the kill shot. That's plenty of time for a shooter to toss his rifle and walk away. Regarding Bowers, remember that the parking lot was Jammed with cars. Those autos would have blocked much of Bowers view into the lot.
If the shooter was at the portion of the picket fence where the smoke was seen, he would Not have to, "...walk the Full Length of the fence before tossing...".
You're assuming the tosser was the same person that Officer Smith confronted. Smith might have run into a "spotter".
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John - Listen to the Q/A. You're embarrassing yourself.
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John - Listen to the Q/A. You're embarrassing yourself.
If you're talking about the 45 minute interview from 1989 I have listened to it, and he has added nothing new to his comments in his earlier filmed interview but has elaborated on some of his lies and added some new lies. Your insistence that he had something different to say was yet another piece of Royell BS!
Since Royell lacks the technical know how on how to post images or videos, here's the 1989 interview so everyone can have a laugh!
Gordon describes a large bore weapon like a shotgun that was big enough for a truck to drive through, sound familiar? Hehehe!
Gordon in the interim from his earlier filmed interview also realizes that he wasn't captured on any film on the day so suddenly has memory amnesia about exactly where he was standing and claims irrelevant details may have changed. The most important event of his life and he forgets, get real!
Gordon also goes on about how he was supposed to go to Alaska whereas in his earlier filmed interview he implies that he was sent there for an extended period of time because he was filming on the Grassy Knoll. sheesh!
Gordon who didn't know the Badgeman interpretation didn't represent reality, suddenly remembered people around him looking like the fake images seen in Moorman's photo and laughably recognizes some fuzzy blobs as being him! You can't make up this level of stupidity.
Btw, the only persons who are embarrassing themselves are Gordon Arnold for his seeking his 15 minutes of fame and you Royell for being sucked in by his easily detected lies.
JohnM
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So 1st you trash Hoffman and now you move onto Gordon Arnold? Your lack of critical listening skills have you looking silly. You wondered why Arnold was Not viewed by the railroader's atop the Triple Underpass? Did you Not hear Gordon Arnold DETAIL how when he dove to the ground his military training kicked in and he ROLLED Over and Over? Or maybe you just FAILED to connect Your question with Arnold DETAILING this? How would anyone standing on the Triple Underpass see someone that was literally flat on-the-ground behind the picket fence? With regard to the entire Gordon Arnold Sixth Floor Q/A, I'm gonna stop now. I do Not enjoy Punching Down.
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So 1st you trash Hoffman and now you move onto Gordon Arnold? Your lack of critical listening skills have you looking silly. You wondered why Arnold was Not viewed by the railroader's atop the Triple Underpass? Did you Not hear Gordon Arnold DETAIL how when he dove to the ground his military training kicked in and he ROLLED Over and Over? Or maybe you just FAILED to connect Your question with Arnold DETAILING this? How would anyone standing on the Triple Underpass see someone that was literally flat on-the-ground behind the picket fence? With regard to the entire Gordon Arnold Sixth Floor Q/A, I'm gonna stop now. I do Not enjoy Punching Down.
With regard to the entire Gordon Arnold Sixth Floor Q/A, I'm gonna stop now.
Hilarious, you held the Arnold interview over my head for such a long time but I found it ages ago because it wasn't hard to find, it just took me a little time to listen to the whole thing without throwing up.
I'm gonna stop now.
Now that the whole "Gordon Arnold Sixth Floor Q/A" has been exposed as being just lies and not adding much more than Arnold's previously filmed interview you've suddenly backed down and declared "I'm gonna stop now" and may I add you've said it like the true champion of Truth and Justice that you want to believe you are! You really are a Laugh riot! LOLOLOL!
JohnM
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Hilarious, you held the Arnold interview over my head for such a long time but I found it ages ago because it wasn't hard to find, it just took me a little time to listen to the whole thing without throwing up.
Now that the whole "Gordon Arnold Sixth Floor Q/A" has been exposed as being just lies and not adding much more than Arnold's previously filmed interview you've suddenly backed down and declared "I'm gonna stop now" and may I add you've said it like the true champion of Truth and Justice that you want to believe you are! You really are a Laugh riot! LOLOLOL!
JohnM
YOU questioned why the railroader's standing atop the Triple Underpass did Not see Gordon Arnold. I tell you why and you go crickets with regard to this Issue which YOU Raised. You claim to have access to important information like the Arnold Sixth Floor Q/A, yet you fail to thoroughly process it. At this point, you are Losing more JFK Assassination information than you are accumulating. This is why I refrain from punching down. I believe it would help if you would STOP muddling your mind with the macabre cartoons you have created. They are obviously dumbing you down at an alarming rate.
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YOU questioned why the railroader's standing atop the Triple Underpass did Not see Gordon Arnold. I tell you why and you go crickets with regard to this Issue which YOU Raised. You claim to have access to important information like the Arnold Sixth Floor Q/A, yet you fail to thoroughly process it. At this point, you are Losing more JFK Assassination information than you are accumulating. This is why I refrain from punching down. I believe it would help if you would STOP muddling your mind with the macabre cartoons you have created. They are obviously dumbing you down at an alarming rate.
Too late, I've heard and analysed the Arnold Interview.
You should have taken your own advise "I'm gonna stop now" because with the hole you are digging, soon you will be all the in China! LOL!
JohnM
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??? https://www.jfk-assassination.net/hoffman.htm (https://www.jfk-assassination.net/hoffman.htm)
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/hoffy.jpg) (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Hoff.png)
This is interesting.
There was an unknown somebody (XX) who saw a man (the Hoffman Tossee?)(with a dismantled rifle?) run north along the railway tracks away from the TUP.
XX told Officer Foster (who was on duty on the TUP), & Officer Foster searched the boxcars etc for the man/runner, but found nothing.
So, praps Hoffman did see that man/runner running north. And Hoffman then built on that little fact & inserted a Tosser (shooter) & a Tossee (ie the running man).
This is making more sense.
But, who was running man?
Why was he running?
Where was he running from? (ok, Foster said that he ran from the end of the viaduct)(ie from the end of the TUP).
Where was he running to?
Who was XX (ie the guy who saw running man)(ie the guy who told Foster).
If all of the guys on the TUP were railway workers, & if running man was a railway worker, then surely they would have all known each other, or at least they would have all been aware of each other (ie standing around waiting for the previous half hour or so).
So, XX was probly a railway worker, in which case the runner probly wasnt.
Dunno. Still thinking. But that is interesting.
Praps Foster would have found running man if Foster had checked the toilet at Bower's lookout.
Running man had obviously soiled his undies, koz of Hickey's accidental auto burst of at least 4 shots.
From No More Silence, by Sneed.
J.W. FOSTER Accident Investigator Dallas Police Department
"You could see about where the bullet had come from by checking the angle where it scraped across the concrete and the column where it struck the pedestrian. It appeared to have come from the north-east, approximately from the book store area, but we were never able to find the slug... " J. W. Foster was born in Italy, Texas, and was raised in nearby Hillsboro. After serving in the military, he worked at construction jobs fer ten years prior to joining the Dallas Police Department in 1955. For the next seven years he worked in Radio Patrol, and at the time of the assassination was an accident investigator.
I was assigned to patrol the triple overpass over Elm Street and arrived down there about 9:30. Our orders were to keep all personnel off the railroad overpass. During the morning, there were several people who came up, and I told them they had to leave. I checked the ID's of the railroad people and tried to get them to leave, but they had the idea that I couldn't do that. If I'd have gotten them off, they would have probably pulled the engine up right behind me, which would have created a noise problem. So there wasn't much I could do about that.
212 NO MORE SILENCE At the time the motorcade came through, there were about seven or eight people up there. As you looked down, I was standing over the third lane from the north curb of Elm Street. Four or five were standing right in front of me, and there were several on down the trestle away from me. Just prior to the shots, a three engine locomotive went by, so there wasn't a lot that you could see or hear from up there even though the locomotive had already passed and just the boxcars were going by at the time the motorcade passed through.
At about 12:30, I saw the motorcade as they came around the comer off of Houston onto Elm proceeding west. When they got about halfway between Houston and the Triple Underpass, I heard three distinct, evenly spaced shots. I could see into the car but couldn't really determine anything, but I did see Mrs. Kennedy crawl up on the back of the car and the driver of the vehicle swerve to his right and a Secret Service agent push her back into the car. From that point, they proceeded west on Elm Street to the Stemmons Freeway. At the time, all I could tell about the shots was that they all sounded about the same, and they came from back toward Elm and Houston Streets. None of them came from the grassy knoll.
After the shooting, one officer ran up and said the shots came from the overpass, and I told him they didn't.
Then I moved around to the end of the viaduct where somebody said some man had run up the railroad track from that location.
So I proceeded up to the yards to check the empty boxcars to see if anybody had run up that way.
I was in the yards maybe ten to fifteen minutes looking in the cars, but I didn't find anything.
Nor did I see anything suspicious behind the picket fence or see anyone with Secret Service or FBI identification, as some have stated. From there I moved on down to the book store and walked on down to the south side of Elm.
The plaza had been freshly mowed the day before, thus I noticed this clump of sod that was laying there and was trying to find out what caused that clump of grass to be there. That's when I found where the bullet had struck the concrete skirt by the manhole cover and knocked that clump of grass up. Buddy Walthers, one of the sheriffs deputies, came up and talked to me about it, and we discussed the direction from which the bullet had come. It struck the skirt near the manhole cover
l.W. FOSTER, ACCIDENT INVESTIGATOR 213 and then hit this person who had stood by the column over on Commerce Street. He came by and had a cut on his face where the bullet had struck the column. You could see about where the bullet had come from by checking the angle where it scraped across the concrete and the...
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Hoffman saw a man running to the dunny.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tg7tHWDh/6f77130d87af729dc5187e95f259ee4d-Copy-Copy.jpg)
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Or, was he was running to a phone, to call his stock agent....... "SELL SELL SELL".
Did the stock market fall when jfk was shot?
wikileaks........... Financial
The Dow Jones Industrial Average had been up 3.31 points (0.5%) for the day,[17] at the moment shots were fired at Kennedy.
Forty minutes later, as news of Kennedy's death was breaking, it had already plunged 21.16 points (-2.8%), on very heavy trading volume.[17]
With the stock exchange already running 20 minutes behind floor transactions, the Board of Governors of the New York Stock Exchange announced that they had closed orders for the day.[17]
AMEX and commodities exchanges quickly followed.[18][19][17]
The new president, Lyndon B. Johnson, telephoned NYSE President G. Keith Funston and commended him for closing the exchange upon hearing the news of the assassination.[20][21][22]
Funston told LBJ in the phone conversation: "Thanks, Mr. President. Nobody has complimented the stock exchange for anything in a long time."[21]
The first trading day after the assassination, November 26, market averages rebounded sharply, recording the largest gains for any single day in history, and the fourth highest single day trading volume in NYSE history to that point.[23][24]
So, now we have a new suspect.... FUNSTON.
The Kennedy's made a crooked fortune during the 1929 crash. And now a Kennedy is involved in the 1963 crash.
Was Funston double crossed by Kennedy snr back in 1929?
Did Lyndon know Mrs Funston?
The plot thickens.