JFK Assassination Forum

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 26, 2021, 01:38:43 AM

Title: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 26, 2021, 01:38:43 AM
Oswald's shot-1 was at  Z113.
Below is a copy of my posting in my other thread that Oswald's shot-2 happened at Z218 based on Zapruder's startle reaction when he shook his camera at Z224, based on his startle reaction time of 3.7 frames. 

In the same way i can calculate that Oswald's shot-1 happened at Z129.8 based on Zapruder's mini-shake at Z134, based on the shake being due to the shock of the sound of the shot directly shaking the camera, based on the sound taking 4.2 frames to get from Oswald to Zapruder.  Actually, if the distance to JFK is say 88ft horizontally & 60ft vertically then that is 107ft, & if the slug moves at say 2200 fps or 120 ft per frame then the slug takes 0.9 frames.  Hence the slug was in the air at Z129.8 & hit the road at Z130.7.

Or if the mini-shake is due to Zapruder's startle reaction then i need to allow another  3.7 frames, which puts Oswald's shot-1 in the air at Z126.1 & it hits at Z127.0. 

When i say hits i mean it misses JFK & hits the signal arm & then it fragments.
(1) The remnant slug puts a non-round hole in the floor of the limo tween the jump seats (we have a photo) & hits the road.
(2) The copper jacket breaks into 2 pieces as is usual (it is made of 2 pieces joined together), giving us CE567 CE569 found in the car.
(3) Small lead fragments hit JFK in the back of his head (as seen on xrays). 
(4) Other larger lead fragments found in the limo might belong to Oswald's shot-1 or they might belong to Hickey's  AR15.

However i reckon that Oswald's shot-1 happened at Z113, not the above Z127 or Z131. 
This is based on the limo at Z133 being one car length past where it was when Oswald fired.  Before today i reckoned that Oswald's shot-1 was at Z123, based on the limo at Z133 being a half car length past, but today i had a closer look at photos etc & i saw that 1 full limo length past was the true situation.

More exactly, the difference is equal to the length of a painted white line on the roadway.  This is about 17ft.  I saw that the limo takes 19 frames to move the length of the stripe, ie from Z133 to Z152, & then the limo takes another 19 frames to reach the next painted stripe.  But if i assume that the limo was accelerating a little prior to Z133 i can round it off to say 20 frames.  Hence Oswald's shot-1 happened at Z113, meaning that it hit at Z113, but Oswald fired at Z112 (the slug being in the air for 0.9  frames).

The slugs hit at Z113 & then Z218 & then Z313 (an auto burst of 4 or 5 shots).

[PREVIOUSLY I SAID]…..Oswald's shot-2 was at  Z218.
Working backwards, Zapruder is startled at Z318 Z319 Z320, which is 5 frames after Hickey's 4 or 5 shots at Z313 Z314 Z315 Z316 Z317.  Zapruder is 84ft from Hickey, & the speed of sound is 343 m/s or 62ft per frame, so that takes 1.3 frames.  Deducting 1.3 from 5 gives a startle reaction time of 3.7 frames. 

Zapruder is startled at frames Z224 to Z229.  Deducting 3.7 from Z224 gives Z220.3.  Zapruder is 264 ft from Oswald, for which the  sound takes 4.2 frames.  Hence Oswald shot at Z216.1.  The slug moved at say 2200 fps which is 120 ft per frame, & Oswald is 197 ft from JFK, hence the slug takes  1.6 frames.  Adding 1.6 to Z216.1 gives Z217.7 as the time that JFK is hit, ie say Z218.

Z218 has always been my estimate based on Connally's testimony re Connally's turning movements.  He said he was turned/looking right, then turned to look over his left shoulder but only got halfway  there when the slug hit him.  That right to left turn can only have happened whilst Connally was hidden by the sign, & Z218 is dead center in that period.
Re Oswald's shot-1, this happened some time before Z133, Z133 being Zapruder's first frame of  that sequence.  We know where shot-1 happened, it happened at the signals, the shot ricocheting off the signal arm. But when is not known.  If it was a half limo length before Z133 then at 1 ft per frame that makes shot-1 at Z123. A full limo makes it Z113.
[END OF QUOTE].

Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 26, 2021, 03:50:02 AM
The slugs hit at Z113 & then Z218 & then Z313 (an auto burst of 4 or 5 shots).
The slugs are in the air at Z112.1 & then Z216.4 & then Z313.0.
The time intervals are 104.3 frames & 96.6 frames, or 5.70 sec & 5.28 sec & diff 0.42 sec & total 10.98 sec. 
Listeners who are stationary & an equal distance from Oswald & Hickey will hear the above intervals.

Listeners near Hickey hear Hickey's shots 231ft sooner than Oswald's, ie 0.20 sec sooner. 
They will hear intervals of 5.70 sec & 5.08 sec & diff 0.62 sec & total 10.78 sec.

Listeners below Oswald hear Oswald's shots 160ft sooner than Hickey's, ie 0.14 sec sooner. 
They will hear intervals of 5.70 sec & 5.42 sec & diff 0.28 sec & total 11.12 sec.

Listeners on the underpass hear Hickey's shots 220ft sooner than Oswald's, ie 0.19 sec sooner. 
They will hear intervals of 5.70 sec & 5.08 sec &  diff 0.62 sec & total 10.78 sec.

Listeners in the motorcade near JFK hear Oswald's shot-2  91ft later than Oswald's shot-1, ie 0.08 sec later. 
They will hear intervals of 5.78 sec & 5.08 sec & diff 0.70 sec & total 10.86 sec.

These intervals don’t accord with witnesses who said that the 2nd  interval was much shorter than the 1st.   But in my above calculations the biggest difference was 5.08/5.78 which is a difference of only 12%.  The smallest difference was 5.42/5.70 which is  5%.   

If we agree with thems that say  that the 2nd shot was at Z224 then that adds 6 frames to the first interval & robs 6 frames from the 2nd interval, ie a difference of 12 frames which is 0.67 sec.  That would make the intervals say 6.11 sec & 4.75 sec, & the difference 22%.   But i much prefer my Z218 to their Z224.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 26, 2021, 04:35:38 AM
Here is a small limo at Z113. Actually it is at say Z115 koz jfk is a couple of clicks past the arm.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51072062906_f51979a68a_m.jpg)

Secret Service Reconstruction. Here is the small limo at Z133, ie the location of jfk when Zapruder started his sequence.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51002874380_1a10289040_m.jpg)

Here is a well known drawing of the JFK limo at the first shot & supposedly at Z133.
I reckon that the limo is however drawn mistakenly at say Z140 not Z133.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51071369273_61bcefe721_m.jpg)

Here are the locations of Z113 & Z218 & Z313. Z113 is mistakenly called Z123 but the shown location is correct anyhow, koz we know that the location is where the signal arm aligns with jfk as viewed/aimed from Oswald's window.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51072064296_2905b61eb2_m.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/wrknV_8n4M32aYuiM4ffMD1mT0o6wTVKqZkH0UrYr2uAlFeg6kBrJgM70M4emBQoj94_wVYCyI43o8hlH7TbakM1M1UyshtZAdjGWfMcUS_PDOsjQraXM5UQlwm8SJmMTEzVTI_c6WoPEw5YRBDrhuU5ye1BQxkuZ26vsu24V-hiyuG-MlHM2NKRaAIIIZNtkKhLMRhvFGBDBuTPg4kOZpBjGKD3QHZoW9BklNUn7P7XRS9IfV31a0L6FmYKElEyMNEBAFjcNv5Sz4up-mDNwojgovksS3jhbHE1RGhW3qUvB1vW6vjK3F9XH5R9tP9xTS2g8ICCjrGfKPLFzze8vJ5cX0U1ciiQGHteJP-R4uJLYkEjIRdcaIlr7E2Le4V5SfQPLZVp70UtVnY9YEmAm5u6Autrb-VNj9mwTmyRrhEZgGXtS2VgZYIyO_7ppFBDZBoTgNzuQxg6qL8FQEsTPGVhyvkPKB4RO9cwb8MfHtw54aNG9ru6pMAyzi8LRztwGjlsiMjFMmiAkTFGwsZb4xdfn4wAKwPhQi67ycIJwAxiIyLXrz99lbJHNbyXkFNYb5kUSsQMSzsEPTH8GdfBTH6ei-yoZ9-f2MKIiHgPHGcUkFGawb9VU0LcE7mG7-esTlQb8o_ybbOgv0M7YEV6zedWYnIU3zYZTdmCPpC-VGruEGeLfA7r_B0DWW28poQeHQnKgdhpEIzrt2dByXmO-Pux=w969-h712-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 26, 2021, 04:58:54 AM
Here is Z133 (the first frame in Zapruder's sequence) showing the JFK limo halfway along the white stripe.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51071854798_13e4fff456_m.jpg)

Here is Z134 showing a mini-shake possibly due to the sound of shot-1 reaching Zapruder's camera or Zapruder's ears.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51072552941_2a8f480dd4_m.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 26, 2021, 11:07:53 PM
Here is Towner T137 which i reckon is Z112, ie just before Oswald's shot-1.  My reckoning is based on the position of the end of the white stripe painted on the road.  At Z113, Oswald's shot-1, the end of the stripe was level with Nellie Connally, as can be seen in the printscreen from the Secret Service reconstruction footage, based on the position of the signal arm blocking  a shot at JFK from Oswald's sniper's nest (printscreen shown in my posting yesterday).
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3esPcMjzdpyc-aYgMwbmuB5VNrHmq7lGlZyakV2JSY-g0OGr0tF9dGBE0O1vcoCix7kg9Sm8B_3LnfuXU5rWn9FRo6-gjqPNAAZyTxSKdQijrQa3biBm0AXhUsMvtlBKmgQ_VWsLNFE8pFMFGFYEwln=w1080-h720-no?authuser=0)

Here is Towner T139 which i reckon is Z114, ie just after Oswald's shot-1.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dM6FY0WpbIktda2U6AZ72TE-b5FzIbycRb6kHT7IWD1xL5ZQ3zxmwweZ7bpZ8QvDe8yi8Kg6Ja8fbSKelcHL47St0zeqMovW90tN2IjwmSms2oR51YoTj0dzzfJG_jgTnLS4YXJ3T2dnyGPT-ys6ri=w1080-h720-no?authuser=0)

Here is T141, which i reckon is Z116.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d4Bzb-a_BHOC9qU40NaOyMh4uzjOXvMB-NvHvUe5-3N6K6piVk2iNnQAeLAXEDojak7ZUJ5ossOdTX1c7BgJ8MOcWm2C_PGMDEgELGAgsxM6He0J8JqrvmSUI7BPnQg3zXg9tnSaqhd93yisrLbhVf=w1080-h720-no?authuser=0)

Here is T142, the last frame of the sequence, which i reckon is Z117.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3es3DR5jw5bwT6UmIv8ulR8aI-TnLGFA5x1JV5Izn_y9zhB7XYVRDSbujrsskIOqa0HzXiTg2fAbkqUmgoV7IxXWHqDB-8uyP-1M_Cqv4aKOMt776vIrTYOKaJJyF-h_Ef-cSva_NHQo6IC08URAKQ8=w1080-h720-no?authuser=0)


Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 26, 2021, 11:51:01 PM
So, Oswald's shot-1 probly happened at T138 & Z113.  Zapruder's frame rate was they say 18.3 fps. Towner's might have been 16 or 18 or 20 or 22 fps, no-one knows for sure.  These frames are from Robin Unger's Gallery.  I don’t know why T138 is missing.  This is i reckon at Z113, Oswald's shot-1.  I doubt that T138 will show anything much, it wont show the slug ricocheting off the signal arm, the remnant slug putting a hole in the floor of the limo & then hitting the drive-shaft & the road, the 2 fragments of copper jacket rattling around in the limo, the shower of small bits of lead hitting JFK in the back of the head.

If Oswald's shot-1 was at T138 then i would expect some reaction by T142, which is 4 frames later, but there is no obvious reaction from JFK & Co, or spectators.  Praps the shot was at T139, & young Tina Towner didn’t react & shake the camera until T143, ie after she had already finished filming.  Actually, if Oswald fired at T137 & the bullet ricocheted off the signal arm at T138 then the sound of the shot wouldn’t reach Tina until T139, the sound travelling say 120ft at say 62 ft per frame, whilst the slug travelled 107ft at say 120 ft per frame.  Yes we should not expect much reaction from anybody until T143.

Actually in these 4 frames JFK is mostly hidden by the Policeman, & everyone in the limo is blurred. Pity.
T137. We can see JFK's head, looking to his right.  Oswald fires shot-1.
T138. Missing. Slug ricochets off the signal arm. The remnant slug put a hole in the limo. Bits of lead hit the back of JFK'S head.
T139. We can see a little bit of JFK's head. Sound of shot arrives.
T140. Missing.  Does anyone know where we can get a copy of missing frames?
T141. Head is hidden behind Policeman.
T142. Head emerges, JFK is raising his right hand to his head, as described by witnesses re Oswald's shot-1.
T143. Doesnt exist, Tina Towner had stopped filming.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 27, 2021, 03:23:06 AM
Here is in effect Towner frame T138, which is missing in Robin Unger's gallery. He shows T137 T139 T141 T142.
T138 & T140 are missing. And T143 never happened -- the last frame was T142 (i think).
So, here below is in effect frame T138, a printscreen from i think the Museum's online Tina footage.
Oswald's shot-1 was at Z112, say T137.
Slug hit signal arm (& fragments hit JFK) at Z113, say T138.

We know that Z113 was at T138 koz Nellie Connally is level with the end of the white painted road stripe, in the re-enactment footage, & in Tina's footage.

Sound hit Tina at Z114, say T139.
Tina hears bang at say T141.
Tina possibly had a non-voluntary startle reaction to the bang at say T143 (except that she stopped filming at T142).
Tina possibly had a voluntary fright reaction to the bang at say T145.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sWAncHwNE04rA8L37y4eawmugxe1GWbdRZOroR3lzAaF-fu5By7me7Z25R27HUDK8BYZ-M9n0XifwTV0SBtgne2mq2WAnJEPKrlFkuZzqd9E7CWvvc9aMZNn4TrSesCIPJ5VMxpkR8HGsbRnlnUZCQ2eZ0QF4dJYUE8J7edH53TxPS5C1KFKbmSp0KVYpluScfwaFz2cLb67lU5YOTutFaWlIqb1onpDe-bmbR7Eg5cxultpx1kBlRJd4BrUFOVnwFW9cqn6hT40ZwF1yPXarHVtRnmeppv65Y3x2J5IE7VNetBZM_z-_kH4jZNjA68kdBaarYOsucfohIXnYeofv09n2lUz5v1cRaCRwjr0-jUAWcnBcYpuYVQdoFPGnxbDkF2oGLfAH5e4gWV8V6SvUERreKkQQZUVQe7WAr9pxTWnINiqDZjsOQexeZr3MDc2NZrsoWqglikTLW8FnMVeYKYMImcG-whFjbSu809Q0vItUkBncmCGU-HrgwxhtQX2C36m7mQ8dgTY0zphIeu_TjPbGdUXWLxkpRp2oUJVlz-IZgjC3dkqsKeJCRrFku1JBkBhdgH52b7XHbKpqsfnK2-rEyZ45hYGspEodK3YLBO7AtvWHls8yhNz1f9NXabUeeMK3FpSMiUWou6pkp2vmtmqCfpPZPm2m5Pg9bj17ufRIy5ANAJbEVfsBV7f9PH-YZ9CV7RhiMUyyz-rToSnwr3R=w1560-h878-no?authuser=0)




Here below are some more printscreens.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zCK5D4iQwaynVvoYem2wzheCUbRXiKm7aVzGfPEpUX2HM0CrxnlRPZKKztmrQs8ZGwAj5K9wAyvYvrSbNhq7gBIQOKCjIFDMjQfqfTDGOQpi2wy7GueyOP8s4ZFBIugkrnPhl7FhTPOENXEu-8pQKXOrNvwdt4Q_Xy8Shn--qB-VEwop7n-GDUbN2q2IOty2Q-cv0I6WyAzSteuth9fk4AsfzUhGpKvNewmY10qMKMtcw0M7UM7dvYtw7bGQ7ksrbBgrRAX3R91rs47BF6YbAv5bLnObLKPJ384ABObwBSHwK4XmPccoPe283tracyecz02vT56izGI1IZBZxUyjF2pChgfmfv0CeRDKe3wnp6xubMPXUl9w9oDscLVWpJcvk8X0U3ljEsYyR__jNXUdUg7e49Hgcx1LlVIpMv7YZ7Wcn74S_toeGFDVXSgLQ0d3n9Ql9F4CqbEjvvTG8Bjvq9by1alWmxosfj1wEqP2seVEr8BbElLYJOlebkq54ZWmROebArUKZekpz-_EDxx9661brxujQr4945hXRXif67HAs1b0U3SLWVWo7H2HSlt7HjFpFj4PhTP9t1opFeBXSFYXFghnx_xV6rKGM7za7UjVOBSClWuDiI_O_FGHEYr1lwvwlxx3JiSo27rdzJlB0MyAbrOERJHeqiSVmrfUawWet68niSshLG_rHS9ZuFocqKAA_y55w7jgEzx0RefSRsUU=w1560-h878-no?authuser=0)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/bVqeqaqfyJljtDs_wkiL0CLwG-bgYQrkNwINcRWMvbTP30hEry_QYOCXHe4GLGX659ZVpUBfZ_uCRszcW9nIeDmBaQGs3Bm6Nyen1w6o0jMIkZaZDHgVDWq7yS4Gl44alv-6IcdoVz94lVN2OkJAfY-gqNYjUkkC0nmgxstydv6gi1BpfmSZ8iJG0EyvrmHAz2Lj3DIvDu4GMetyoPoraEjM2ITKQFxT4-FkLTsQy8fWYZdFxUv-gyVsLc8i6xeeH24jEOl06zXDgVtfF3Ln27tXjE3_-zJoT9soNkILxpC3oH1AjAFa1Io9Xo41lvCgqwKNNNcybUoM0JS4U7sX483pqnOfbsZja90doFz18HZPB6C34amxpPZOiNqMQ0YnpBR4VgiJqTyi61UkMtFwyGY_5xg7kGsI2sYoFGLpe4RAgqwR5Z3qQQMH9jk7MMTwNWD3h9q2FA7xTXrEg9_V78A9OSqwZ3w9Xd82bGPxy0kfEPBkut_oJdcdyyy41Z_tAQKNwZA43hA2RaXrLAfhNVI52VoPCDaVSmz3axUStC3UgKGP1f1HftTzgs3m9zOu72oDw6E_I6X4itj_jkdu66F1fY8axBmU-6nGxhYAz9RSQTn9ZEh59SoW1abiG1hpzFhgJsS-kL0_LkZ9ijOWZ5lCq-GBOZAoe0DOpti3s9eZVwxMx8hXCrAm2kr5vtjjL5npBiSkERn-NnxLBPbOJCe_=w1560-h878-no?authuser=0)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1mf1i90EMg_T3v04Mbd9w0sUJ1eB4quW5zdPphLJ33LFjlEk26e2TGJAqYZ4AXzQLhR3XwUPY5OCNN6U90vDpIiB0wzsDLuXJQe8QxRa8K-lG-BrP4IY7QoNFg1DBGbxTpejYM6B4H8vDTYTGoqS2ALyPsL-9fo6Luzbgzts64JzM-2Lh8qWzZ8KNEt1E_AgmiZvnrQOSnpUTpHQZSgvEf2u7foPtng2y8cGqXlf1ZZo6Z0HMH8jRhQETkjGQb9pawocjU_WHGi0OiU5QjLRzZWO00xUlvA5xLOzjhKdU2HpbPnyqjcoSB90fADExX7hA_YhwFzGRMdqmf_nJrY-x9y10lcfQ9wWEQuz_YwGBcrwEZg94IceIu_fAjhLSLmm8b_8KETs5d8Ml9g-YnDetziZqJOgqhb45K1QYRDJqgQXSB8JlLsi4eWsr1l4mXS6xZUzkChlURFDk4ZawDxImKrAK7xeahg7vXZFdJVMyl0AjKwOlWUuAr9BrF94ovokkqPxMtdhIecbqaRMl_za5p85muZszPpujzDfLS6HeM6FTUsZvqg6U22LrLjJL44OWV2RBu3r9gzGUfH-WBucXdVBFVOSG8k49UdhX6qhdcz5452u1NWniGJCBNM_izoj0vwLhDaMi5v1G3OypeE19r-L7bH-08PtFMuV6acaD27OFn7Vw4e4aikFfw9HbKuFuNh8FaNMwZaFKOBtoP7Go7A5=w1560-h878-no?authuser=0)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/5JGYHGYxVueYiAWPge848Vp7KSpV3H8CpmZQQxk5KamKAEI0SSl2AAAsXxGM8R8v9q9uW_1GPog5TM_Z95-4fJZgM7YJpkjzgG5ozYKidcYPpBFCU_xZb3l59Nn4Nif7tOx-O3bJWpv3wYc9X-iuZjhuJ7pTqGA55ZIxFXtM03NQRzlyzWnWOzXLepCAniG44W55Efi0wFoU5ozgCzdAjUYJ7RwRa0JjYa18fKANK6O2CU_w5k7sORVjojLsKh5vESzxenmKXA6BoRpX2_if0m_wXxzx19CxiGa0tQUGV9lKa-ys9uXMpWPolRXUGLse2t2YcjWfJCwwyG3uOcerZrA7phyQmpjA-jeYWeziQVJ3rLwUIajhpaqvTNl63laKJXt6knTcJkVVX3VM_T38vd4B1p0tXQ4FCIR8XhY1iFrWXnjnrF7Se4MCQ30DHWL9su-JJbsubwrUKKPQJcLh005ZJTXx0EQ3DdsK4hwVueRXwUte2qNAQjqHqN83n_SdR8Lp3Uf8EkcBv3V-8g2bOE8J0EqLa565gVR-ipjiGSzb2vTTNLLsel1bqimMs0HlgJ_8YF42LWPCbufTljmiohUUlLeLgcPq2bxeJVQ5M7JR_jKmCjxE6zqMyAYM45tJI5OeoYepZXiQkkxA3aYfKKrZj17M65Q9zVWWN-1TUd0smuBij4PS2b5vOWnsHl7WKanubuN278ETcG-iKMP4bcBv=w1560-h878-no?authuser=0)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yQXHOept1ARLYBvc6x-dZ26nO5eSY37TN6oWsW4-23IfPpCnEtPdG51jn5Dx5luaLTFxDDGP_zWTR5HDbzTneGI17f5JhzwEeOHLtE9mKNONjN8CZOidv0qIeNEKR36fhIH5e_h0SpctbEXrqNvQgbRH8rKEcG8ZFULNn__tQd5eftHHuo6TTruoeD7YWmKD-eleWXhj9QdBEeQQygzus8WZl8SbvLU2bN9DMOXMQbuZ2VWV9rQSbz5-WfWMq1bqu7msb6FiLQxXY8G7DBkmQVj8auhbsApqhyjgQBS4Q_8OuWik7Pdp1Z2fQ90dTxDu3Ruh9pWOBPPJ_Ci13BM5YsOSQlCokxMB6jsNM9G0Y7K7-NscwipZIPswsAfS256AVl0dwMDIp2Eep1h58c6K5SgQ_KcCYkYXZ2dGkCX9YCHImHYdqls75rB3TgtO25RmiOwipdz7q_TXDHgQFW2IkiT6wcy0I3XbpvKTh7tFntxcI4QRfLpOacxKs82rVPWr1r8zbWLyhQJ3IVG7WKSD0iD0oZlO74iLl8xehm7qZKEDdtBq1BnGagt_swf_ylEX1SeiWs_vDPJk6ij33m4dfmeXuoFhO5IAP7P9lGocAL50b1QZu_Dp-YbZLyLNIQHWbO1xSUBYg1pNJsDuHgWJzCXWKRnxHffoZVZ2D9YuXpNaHisjKaaleJI43j51rW664-YV7vVByg8Grsipc0O0GDTl=w1560-h878-no?authuser=0)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/x5Z3eH93bTgbFf9UPToskGqXQ6JdMEicNb7w8lmu8WGAuTYGYRWE3SvBzPzG09wPmn25LXTp3E4Stga45MstykScQhEjUXurGyhXq9ROxlSJx4wFYBHYwQrGOpjbyValPC4QkCYnel44RgsWFH-YVsYQlnJmJ9EuVsSnf6Er82LYCGYmTAW4QmjOLho7qqRS5Tw5SD_6tAr4x7XtD75-brNz_w7CfLUWRLQcFlBm0V0j7MyaidcRB8M5MmZAdMsLsd9fLlAMt5Ks8w8eJsyG2DzD4OWzTLFExLuQibg97fxwBCNAVlSTpvI7M1-pM4xvpLHJr21bqiU3yv9mR-lFDNWK7dS5Ct5O3CKPwrD7sJUmF6fgr1UffuGq_AEUR9-mhvaGe_01O9lDQ29XtC3hzJpWic6yglG4DQQSAnwd4r05Qt8PwsjYB_e4wkPMPRs00Ni7X7xBT55APfNngd99xkgKouKS6m3FLsLej1_hc4uhT3Hpv7JXjfN4Ln26QeUUdSSj54agC-gv087OJB8ThYXJFGO6nVfkOxhWc3Sk2ntEgwW5a7fEbbckNAXjqDS2d2V1sCzPZ3l5o7pVVPjO25_5fdCapgtLTD_QCipQc2iiLFe48L-UBQb3bLiukdSIhu2QroqdTuQGU_yhoXElViTclMrTwWAie5Z9JutzaRvokfHbPInkq3DSR2_g3ddoVAGZqsyKEvcDqilos8jUeRzJ=w1560-h878-no?authuser=0)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sWAncHwNE04rA8L37y4eawmugxe1GWbdRZOroR3lzAaF-fu5By7me7Z25R27HUDK8BYZ-M9n0XifwTV0SBtgne2mq2WAnJEPKrlFkuZzqd9E7CWvvc9aMZNn4TrSesCIPJ5VMxpkR8HGsbRnlnUZCQ2eZ0QF4dJYUE8J7edH53TxPS5C1KFKbmSp0KVYpluScfwaFz2cLb67lU5YOTutFaWlIqb1onpDe-bmbR7Eg5cxultpx1kBlRJd4BrUFOVnwFW9cqn6hT40ZwF1yPXarHVtRnmeppv65Y3x2J5IE7VNetBZM_z-_kH4jZNjA68kdBaarYOsucfohIXnYeofv09n2lUz5v1cRaCRwjr0-jUAWcnBcYpuYVQdoFPGnxbDkF2oGLfAH5e4gWV8V6SvUERreKkQQZUVQe7WAr9pxTWnINiqDZjsOQexeZr3MDc2NZrsoWqglikTLW8FnMVeYKYMImcG-whFjbSu809Q0vItUkBncmCGU-HrgwxhtQX2C36m7mQ8dgTY0zphIeu_TjPbGdUXWLxkpRp2oUJVlz-IZgjC3dkqsKeJCRrFku1JBkBhdgH52b7XHbKpqsfnK2-rEyZ45hYGspEodK3YLBO7AtvWHls8yhNz1f9NXabUeeMK3FpSMiUWou6pkp2vmtmqCfpPZPm2m5Pg9bj17ufRIy5ANAJbEVfsBV7f9PH-YZ9CV7RhiMUyyz-rToSnwr3R=w1560-h878-no?authuser=0)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/MP5dGcfAL5YqfrI2msuW_Iv-SlDznK6AUkUchRVR_9zGvyp8kAy4J--53Vh1_kQaxIhXWkGbkzMIHtgUm2qZ0Mt4aX7hVJyXaSn3pTeomwb_nhUZkNNZmkpK9Ia_ZlndHghrSBGZLSNkVXIv68MYkNbubwaA4N7R4TGaryNf-vjSJovmVsUJmKW9JQSX78FE14j3gyXaw1dcLJ-P2Guo5kk0-kMz-ZprF7yujkhTOkk6VmaYEI2hTdP-Cqmykw0BhDD0i3lErBASYZprLtlboEq7ae4r49wuAGsAGvWQ5Dwp6ZXmMmdLRf8ZiGcMF48RPAe-P1-2Kw6FSmk97dHzoiuD3OQYhEu3bxfM0aO9gkPH190eRhBZD_KeYkWZQyiYOp1Qpix33bMro2uE5Lbg8XSDgtdQBXWVW6SiFkc_2L9v3Jc26tVi6ledvxz3c0X3dl_DsqV2p4isiz171d0IUpGxsR6jeJSIXsTW6GRRXLN9aT1ya1uCGvhCEEJlf5e6qYhugC5KDFQvwvNcCI-NDN9_77lgkcPHTUiEfp1W-1EArxG1qFbtluQiTE46TH6Vv2REmeclgS-2FD8stOMw7IZBfVL7_nrNdc_TsLzwB-OEIOg8u-ccdN9dxTg-ayvpFjnEgpNFPcXAPdTh7g_S5PO4-fZldZbL31Yk-Xnu0h6AKmkw8jGlgjGXmk755l-LGvrhJrYPEwrQR4qBUsbPdflc=w1560-h878-no?authuser=0)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zeMsOzZxIF9BJ3Hqo08yNZWT1vOWuAZThB8pb3OssMPjCYPk7-ebkN17PBdZD3VCwb0gwi7BoYdak0u_7dpzPU5AJ4cCKC7zcweQckb0T4yq3ZbMm958RaIg1f1P2jeJjImyEdDe3aypKYwA0IciXuuhltJZh7fAXzJDq3Vts4CWqXUlVUWPLOU5rJpqOieNXVsEmE59aDMi4Cq3SI6MqHxnePM66bpzEzeUePRr7w8FdHVlsPxg_VCLTt2LoR4hT4vKs1KAXCC93SuU7LBXMqHucSOrqlqTkrK2fQ_RoZXjAbiuqZ8pcyNxyJFKsPcqKsvfi_PUUHchJnvGoblojp7gUJBC4Rp18ttFGbKXcJtRcWZTw-pwrgtm7VkHK-ss87E7osTLCvF99UroOX-dqdEHnYg1dOiMqcDQKBAGxUxnZcR9BJ5NglPQH8mfoPK1TRotCf5Q3o6y8xtLvOU-erznkBxvaPNynZ6Op7gVxW1ThaTIFiXmwVIrX_5s3AWvrOfHGYBfUS960-88GB2FomiSvM5wfic8wMawGSywg69ZJOnVWQbuJOAR0_mkND5mAiCvM5Rk3pnkwZLnCOQvCIgPdK8YRaCwx94oxIE8IBHrfL4z9w4X2HJYJVUlhSxbsUISBV1gSWUtGvc10LVwR1xWCHGCMan52tR_kyaLeX046qXCHJ9FaV-lg8CsO95zaMROcMHfXhC_NetWm-ApoEjB=w718-h404-no?authuser=0)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/SKEiGy7VrlJK7Zlq_unEvgfUY-NwDuuVXP6WITCwiubk65ppr5i2px9JZf-Xu0K5W4BrRL8uh87wQx35-v70AcUsSim02DoBXU2TUbp79zWt12_6zFbW2KIwBoQbSNVy1QAlw8MCUviN5lvCPQpWJIWFXW0i9o3QDcPSUJWyqctYrWCQ1hcmpAmONXzjRI_wEHFMntIxdoJ2O5G1LRmSociE364-9xDmsF1afJ57rOcptqTcEBFPB7xvAIILg8DDTwpCnCgoUgvNeLQyOIxIzcHE1MyYodkJJRkfrllkv9WmKPiaie6M50ro7H3BWlKekksG-Oa4B--eBXCLTtkLc9zMZyvmoVT-Dtx2d6QyaykKSWxyG5Gu8MAf7QVPyuTmH905lsWOF9ApE-8Uq8WkVvvwLCARaR8rtsIwuizu7jm7C5NTrYTZH7gZyk0vbM6ChlXISYCWbuCN-GF7fdm77rNHeQzIe0lBUO86EvlYu2LQ7fnnRTJ4SU_OfASG4zMKKZhfARjiZeV_wyXwoUuErBzl8dJpB3YY0JWnFADMXTDtz7uhs8T-YdtDGrT4UDTDCDnfk2nv9_vwTrr5IvJzcrCPfQG4RTqyvMDVeEnyXIhskC8YchZKOulr3LO0cOxXtFlGNYaf4vGIm0KH8MO17d19UEFCJqc42o0zqy18eVEjxml6XbFXrbvD6DgNMyUS8zD5exR2TRnLTZ1quCSIfOz4=w718-h404-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 27, 2021, 03:47:38 AM
Ok the above 10 screenprints are from the 6th Floor Museum on-line video of  the Towner film.
https://emuseum.jfk.org/internal/media/dispatcher/42270/resize%3Aformat%3Dfull

The pix start at T133 (say Z108).
The shot might be at T138 (Z113).
The last is T142 (say Z117).
So here there are no missing frames.

In youtube interviews Tina Towner says that she stopped filming because the JFK limo was too far past.  Tina heard a shot which she thought was a firecracker, at about the time she stopped filming. Tina couldnt remember whether the shot was just before stopping or just after (she said this whilst standing on the corner at a 50th anniversary or something)(but i cant find the footage now)(in other footage she says she stopped filming a couple of seconds before shot-1). Later she heard a 2nd shot.  I dont remember what she said about a 3rd shot.

So, Tina's hearing doesnt contradict an Oswald shot-1 at T138 (Z113). 
It contradicts an Oswald shot-1 at the oft-said Z155.
It contradicts an Oswald shot-1 at the much-said much-loved much-believed (much-lied) Z224.

Tina didnt mention getting a fright by the sound of the shot, or by the sound of Oswald's shot-2 (which i say happened at Z218).
So mightbe Tina didnt shake the camera. Or she did but only after T142.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 28, 2021, 06:53:32 AM
Victoria Adams heard Oswald's shot-1
either before her view of JFK was obstructed by a tree, or after, her wording is ambiguous.  If Adams heard the shot after JFK was obstructed then that would be at say Zapruder frame Z123 or later, ie at least 10 frames later than what we know to be the actual position of JFK at the time of Oswald's shot-1, ie Z113.  My understanding of her wordage tells me that she heard the shot before her view of JFK was obstructed, which accords with Z113 being the time &place of the shot.

Mr. BELIN - From the east side, were you standing in the third pair, of either of those windows?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Now, of that third pair, from the east side, would it have been the east window or the west window?
Miss ADAMS - The west window.
Mr. BELIN - So another way, if you don't count in pairs, but count in single units from the east side, you would have been in the sixth window from your left as you were facing out the window, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS - That's right.
Mr. BELIN - Were you standing with anyone
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - With whom?
Miss ADAMS - I was standing with Sandra Styles, Elsie Dorman, and Dorothy May Garner.
Mr. BELIN - Will you state what you saw, what you did, and what you heard?
Miss ADAMS - I watched the motorcade come down Main, as it turned from Main onto Houston, and watched it proceed around the corner on Elm, and apparently somebody in the crowd called to the late President, because he and his wife both turned abruptly and faced the building, so we had a very good view of both of them.
Mr. BELIN - Where was their car as you got .this good view, had it come directly opposite your window? Had it come to that point on Elm, or not, if you can remember
Miss ADAMS - I believe it was prior, just a second or so prior to that.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Miss ADAMS - And from our vantage point we were able to see what the President's wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that would attract men's attention.
Then we heard --- then we were obstructed from the view.
Mr. BELIN - By what?
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.

The pix shows the traject of the slug from Oswald to the signal arm & then to JFK.
And it shows the window where Adams was watching (with Dorman & others), & we see the tree.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cBT6DHcFJrIsa_K1zaM2SpJbfM5GkfNQdx6VUOQh-e1OOTPFWgyHCriIO7HuY1k41fybsKwRh9y1AgqjiP7CV9dmxhKWZMxLWSDdJy5UW4k2CK-4b2XgCF6nengX5tJk9FV8qHB7HHFN87VG1M4tDN=w1056-h769-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 28, 2021, 07:27:49 AM
Here is a pix showing JFK's view back to Oswald at the place of shot-1, ie at Z113.
And it shows the window where Adams was watching.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dqW-aEa2OJJb1oQO2yc22pLH2MexJ4hCDcpkFsGpwIq3J9BcT0pu3cfe82X7tey0SMSBc2CsAfoMEn0lYJ3Vkf_VINHsCIBKYGUrcXPmZeu7TckrXEzRJSWSV20BP_dRr4JxVfrynt2Ucvwk7wPPbW=w1201-h1006-no?authuser=0)

Here is a pix where the tree would be obstructing Adams' view of JFK.  Here JFK would be at about Z123, ie say 10 frames & 10ft past Z113.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cQ0z5xf04HMQi2TGTgpk2qwH-aT3kE15nE9jVY7o-uX7Rn9y1SMggNdt9DIUvDfmlOUB4aI0hD8Wi5qY0VcUN_8G06uPiUdqEB79vWeNL3xCqPdT8hYlUFdGC6KV_zOeu86aCGVgTfoeLUQS-7DKRf=w1360-h998-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 28, 2021, 07:38:32 AM
Two more pix of the signals.
The slug probly ricocheted off the westernmost side of the westernmost guy rod, the rod might be 3/4" or 1", probly steel pipe but might be solid steel. The slug must have hit very near the collar, hence it could not have hit the large pipe koz then it would have been stopped by the westernmost guy rod.  And the slug could not have hit the easternmost guy rod koz then it would have been stopped by the big pipe.  Drawings or photos of the view from Oswald's window must if they are correct show the collar on a line to the left of the centerline of jfk's neck/head/body, however most films photos drawings show the collar too far right, or they show the collar in the correct location but show jfk too far left.  No, the collar was inches left of jfk. The slug hit a few inches down from the collar.  The slug hit the westernmost guy rod at about where the guy has his hand.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e6Ch-CWNZyucDCd9etpWZxJqtwS6V0bWIjJJJw4KBXgNpXKIrjLF5Rrqh1eDMJizBkgOINU7BQEXWG-mdrYPoxp774A5V0kBn7Hko81V1jJGCpA1sIaUNNyzMx2zrvW1-lSzsnlbJtGEOTMRwcQBtL=w480-h270-no?authuser=0)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d8J5QECXRsNFITRNQ54s1h0JuQOkLHFG-gkaUHTGeDKUIN_b13BgHzD31HCRSvifpB_euV1E4dvGZqVstA0A4dJp-hlXPH4nNmWaqGg0vARk3GIShJtMaZxu_O02X96V-Gf41ijBBJppQM-So2qKru=s1007-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 28, 2021, 11:13:52 PM
Here is a composite of some of Dorman's frames put together by (i will find name).  As can be seen Dorman didn’t aim properly when JFK was under the signals.  She said that she wasn’t using the viewfinder because she wanted to see Jackie properly.  The arrow shows JFK's pozzy at Z113 T138.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9o4EuPyaEqhlaQHIek1-XCcy-zpM8wRgEGyuLg3oY67wyXw9ml_4nsNT2xpiZO5mTUAxpWdlR3-2EwKsktT099NKbxwzFPLbX5G-yR2R6yd3E-4xhB0Um4LWCyHsL-CrvlfHQ3BtRSg8uM9wY3_OsPn0Tfe_irTm5xxnzE5Uk9mUd-q1Le398qKBL-B0URvEKiMjESpEq0X7623Jy2va3d7ZvdrH2rdaDkK_oUDzyhABIqFuxWsQ-LHrdC2olAuhIC-_HDpvm71OdZKmBRV0O_UD-lttzp88WAu83cwVBoUyu0EL1g1n7AYcLf8EY3ooVj95iyV6ZreY6-ZFLnKpK3EJvcZv-KDu18cSiihngysi-aJ8GwxVa3a_xMO2-uinDMX2YIFah4VQRaRBFU89Vzrxzig-Af2_LTm0Vf0E8mS1Th5l5TihYcWxiC8X_jgUTw0G1b7A5Cl2J229cmNqG7GJ2ZidtfRgeAjJBsjnOOZXNeFZz9XTv0rckUJLeO8l51RNRwJA2c1oPnxa2uYKb9SBeObgwZ4DdZSQfdhvTxLd-MiWM62Q6sl-yznqeL9eVYXAC0zejYRGrr1PeYtmRav6xTznDgNAih_Z-_atQZOZU_ZlEwlfwNBY4xUbjjPBRxUshqI7IZ7U1oZaHEXp-J5IY7UkoGzoAprZKdJHYvYHJQIGywIqyW9aesiVvsCTEibcuMMJ2QWbzsMMw9SNdRJD=w777-h254-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 28, 2021, 11:16:15 PM
Here is a blow up of T142, showing JFK raising his hand to his head after being hit at about T138 (ie he was hit at Z113).  There were reports that jfk raised his right hand to his head after the first shot. He was looking right hence the lead fragments must have hit him mainly high on the rhs (i havent checked the xrays).  Skeptics will say that he is merely waving.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/MIV_3H-xsTs7KBke0ejJaA4fnVVOghevtdJHK5_pmvv7yL-owbxR4Rkr0ncPwlw1kyjqXu7ogIrGwmjw27X-WJ7ZNsrkO2wZ0NjMDv78hkic0P3KQ9K89lj9rV9aEVmO5HiLym0ZbgsPATHr7JywGyqAiFgSb7RuFZAC_PAZhNnFPNRFk8UtgBcNPvZbIXrxuSY1ArxOT5YvK5jKUJWqrvKrrSF8BmyOX8bKRV3Olrz2xk5W0bSkdaf84ac8uo3VGXU5ZzB1V4QvgmCU5JQYjpkFpvouIh7he09cq4lA6Z5ZbydKNuVeH2U0ovgDC15wZ11ILDWrINqNb6do5Umxt6g6QzA6JimrQruUySA6zNAX_U_tWNZ_cQbokUj2wouxHAFcePQEs3buiRLVciWYSw5Q8ffVgCXwESZxcioJ1FilCloZZ4-wZcWDCgmkfCo9z_v6LuRFPbKPHXUGODjhVvuhbmJGC5dyM0QbdH04KA1KUmQkvaPDYmjHrqmfDWDdvD8WCOo-Of6Ie5nFCaiYnocqLFFR4-C8HurNig_rHYKMv25-XJIGAtoZb_NfOJq8z1n0yAAXilVuvapwtxN5BcC56b-lY5LAy8m9LxY4LhmzQacSUiyb2WdBFiwrgWtlhT7UsDF52okxhgfcZ6FhPBNWL2kwrmmIb9FdfG7DOuhUxC4IP72OLcMJlmTAWm3G41ONOkQWFwvUkwljgvBsdTiE=w1244-h522-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 28, 2021, 11:17:21 PM
A star shows Oswald's aim on JFK sitting in the small limo used for the Secret Service reconstruction in Dec 1963.  The limo & jfk are actually a couple of clicks too far along the road, the star should be aligned with the guy rod of the support arm, koz that would have been Oswald's unlucky aim. Small bits of lead hit JFK in the back of the head (star), & the remnant slug put a hole in the floor tween the jump seats (star).  The star on the top of the windshield is where the windshield was cracked by the remnant slug of Hickey's shot-1 at Z313, ie after the slug had exited jfk's head.  And that star also shows approx here Hickey's shot-2 put a dent in the chrome trim above & to the right of the mirror [EDIT 19dec2022][in my later postings in my other threads i realized that the dent in the chrome trim was due to Hickey's 2nd last shot not 2nd shot of his accidental auto burst of 4 or more shots of his AR15].  As can be seen Oswald's shot-1 could not have caused the crack because the fragments would have a  traject nearly parallel to the glass.  Unless of course the fragment ricocheted off something first, which didn’t happen.  And we all know that the dent was not due to Oswald's shot-1 because the dent was obviously made by a full whole bullet, not by a smallish copper fragment.
U might be able to see the hole in the lower right hand corner of the signal backboard, we know that this is a gap arising from the design & manufacture, it is not a bullet hole. Anyhow the backboard passes too far left of jfk to have been the source of the ricochet. It would get in the way of a shot if the limo were partly in the lefthand lane.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8pCFpp20hu5g2C9lz2jfyKNCNFoxyWGvcffuV_LCsgITxkVLXPjZwHm-_jrGCqrn5FwBq5Cmbm_eEPIpMhE42hZV7YZv78E4fBKSAiz6xDjeZ4leZEVj_nVNLsZXi7NkdFCrfkvV8pIR7eNOR8dNsRPRIWq6eTcQ2wwsoJmV9mLU1KGxpvIC7sEWJy893TC3VoPQ5Hl0-B6oHb5vww6LslDin9EZCHuLUpov5Q5zncPiruijqLMIWxe4aS-KakIPrv7rMDjBu58NOCC2SgJdEI70KgamR-flaF11IrDJhYqfP9xpYFNPbmkzgyKNtb3863L9Q3VH8fR0kKY1Qm9Glt6Jc8RYbGMTfBuq79xUEPm1uFGSvL6XbH7LnAyeRgcxPSy9MTzXtUOPqz__rhd9VnYtiA3TkYU_lw5GxdoyeiOFpVH9q3_bP0JR9rRNMvhHqxA5Onh0_fgqtVYk2joNFUg-1wDhq8Phdh3BZcpMQDiLnZNg5AeMkcdkGAw6V96IuQqEhZVGDkNy6fMRZgmALXoirFXUFAjegGl30GYzK3h0tuktXFCS3JzLZn-_OHlZzNeHnguMklkmF96o4oVJSMfQht1hSnOe-VjkJqq6jERh2cUxWIdbwVtuyoHl5C2RfolRGq8CJoHZR_0vCRuY_PhYJfhblk3ITvuprJR3xpF3pi_QzO7TY3cjhb0eyLQNaJyAqF0-6N81cPu9RyGU_APp=w1041-h617-no?authuser=0)
[edit][here is some wordage by Christopher that i found today 5th May 2021.]
https://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2007/03/11-seconds-in-d.html

Christopher
I was an electrician's apprentice charged with changing out the traffic signals in 2004, when Dallas went from 8" light bulb to 12" LED. The one signal I never Ebay'd or sold for scrap is the one from the mast arm over Elm. By most accounts, it looks similar to the ones depicted in the pictures I see; and from what I can tell, it's a roughly 1947 model signal. I'm looking at it right now, and while I don't see any dents that appear bullet-like, I can tell you that the rectangular tin frame around the signal was installed slightly crooked, which allows more light to come through on the bottom-right corner (closest to the depository). This might explain why some thought there was bullet-damage on the light itself, as opposed to the mast arm. Had I read this a decade ago, I'd have checked that arm for ya ;^).
Posted by: Christopher | 12 September 2013 at 02:25 AM


Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 28, 2021, 11:19:21 PM
Bullet hole in floor of JFK limo, found during modifications in Dec 1963, & hushed up.  Notice that the hole is not round, it has been made by the remnant slug after ricocheting off the signal arm.  The copper full metal jacket broke in two as usual during the ricochet because it is made in two sections, & these were found in the limo (CE567 CE569).  This pix is not in Robin Unger's gallery, but he does know of the pix.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wq00mCx/jfk-limo-bullet-hole-in-floor.jpg) 
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8nNcsPp/extra-steel-dec-1963.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 30, 2021, 12:10:58 AM
I forget who drew this (might have been Myers). Its brilliant.  I don’t know whether it was meant to show JFK at Oswald's shot-1 at Z113  T138.  By my reckoning based on the pozzy of the white painted stripe on the south side of the limo i reckon that the limo etc is drawn one click before the shot hit, it is drawn at Z112  T137.  By my reckoning Nellie Connally was level with the end of the painted stripe when Oswald's shot-1 hit (ricocheted off) the signal arm, & the drawing has Nellie one click short.  Oswald shot at Z112, the slug hit at Z113, & the sound hit at Z114, if u want to get technical.
And it correctly shows that the limo didn’t go wide during the turn.  Brilliant.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/OA38pJWvk_oLURTdlmbaD00ZlQvN0gaUQz4VNgm1NExx8XKc1uXBkV-3KU6lZRuzNODiGgF57tpsvMZRUyV-TQj7PCuv_dtJ8yrvG5iMdhI7v8ue0Qa72Pwz9_vywh318A8qBwIIoHhmYkSrS86jhoaNPzAqsjCwUNlvkrBrfT2tnpoRPywLXLGkPwYyh-jXkIuXYKZl-Sq_o_3FA5ZtChzEXSKTUG1Os0tO60igkcS8urZRHjoZLA8Yb_I0BBziAJyzUV1n4vCq8_n-s1IPBd1qJYpPX9B8zXiz7hYIl7c-lvUG5gX6pOUw1LsdR-ZmmrAjAUNzK25bq7l6nLKNkd8TppOzXiFCDdDOuT23Aid4nDzhLXFgL3bthRDrsn1j_lDIX2fN2ZkYniTZXVEKbIOqQ7Pv1tB5Ekm-uzjnCXWSYoYFygFyPubIy-Vkb3cpbzA-u8GympjfEd5rPWfdxoYEYy6aFssSL6mU-mAh8P4ogwP9rzMWF_CbnXiJRKlHb86k6nJuzGdwTYPEVCosEgpBjNn0VJJ9dT4xjX8SH3JYXhab05v9d50-0pMa-wRf07Bw03J_cj9N_PfJ6Y59Lh0atDAUdsageghhHGVuVY4KYGNZ10MGm7RYMv7vH80_CSp4VZkrX3g7I3QyR6bPVPBoP6v1kmSWTV6ESsUGOj5Rr2TgW15YnT7B-zxxaxct6_M7eQwclCi--eRodVmegkDO=w1426-h1007-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 30, 2021, 12:31:13 AM
VICKIE ADAMS  Feb 17 1964.  ……. When the President got in front of us i heard someone call him & he turned.  That is when i heard the first shot.  I thought it was a fire cracker.  Then the second shot i saw the Secret Service man run to the back of the President's car.  After the third shot i went out the back door……..
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/nR51S3a6S6Dt6LX6S1IcTRGccAieSRrBdncfC-doYeVj2TOv0r8MfpThQAc07Ha4yIJo-x4Bl3yn96-NsFINZ5kiZnileloZlnGOIxogG_Jy_UlGO2x3xutFcvENm3Ad1opyweIa5IFfrjdv-nMHeKysOgwoE4Xyql8WrXMu-4rQJf3w1mxz_d92WQIHosk_Hvej1Jex0fophxkWfRwQrIvcOF46VYnEUyz6-HgZ79fWpiz7sr_LZkZmccNhkQ6Y0Ux-jc2WNa3pS_XPxH-9HpMlZW9tEWE3R4B94qeahz3n7ViZhD3p5idpKbpoOM9Ykvn3OUyNc_GJn_ZKVDJxq6w5J0qjdhBei8kOdz4iR9epuTBRXfDxZ9HZBCObWW-MlYLFB3_JJZi4V1dHtHoFq-6XIJlx0HcKQXJq7v-hzWWb3e5BRQdY0-sk7Vqq_QYdY2oumNqPl9OwpiK7RWFQcASi68Pv5KRIJ9fFf0rkdXd6BU1GU8srFrKfITyqGaQOb-hO0ivOzPtZKiAaD1jOAvO1F3nIFMBzLK8QEd1ZEpb15GOeEWq0lK0ii0-hY3Rpp0cSR1eS92xmlM-LpkHqHivL-U0_c9eBjkAzXPNNMw6IHqHEcUm0sAfeazSTN6dOF5_i6OH1RNIq5MKrVFP3k7NDKSbDD8A2aXP2HnR3vykK6uoXn-dgGivdggOpF_sCzl15hqFMzft0SaVjedKQfkU5=w777-h1007-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 30, 2021, 12:33:42 AM
The ricochet gave us three lots of fragments.
The shower of small lead hit JFK in the back of the head, actually the right-hand-side of the back, koz he was looking right (Xrays).
The lead slug put a hole in the floor near the jump seats, & rattled around tween the driveshaft road & limo.
The full metal jacket broke in two as usual, & ended up hitting carpet tween the jump seats (CE567 CE569).

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dK3Pzlvna89ybMjt6AME746R_Xh06kew0xDQ4mGlpuW8gctE66uR-YsP5Qdy5NQshCmaWR202vTIOz_rfos6OobBX0K_Q_WEu--2NTrJhkrprvKQC6NjMwGrs6OXjFWOJIuSLOFfvhRsq-StglBpxAdmRI26yINSUV1RDrixTVvbnPIaxf8T_ehPLDDHobBrXdOfp-wL-a0Y5-wvSxW6VLHOeVGV6tsc60Ytmlk1TeJx5l_IKuSEqN7GjELz4bFdg2GkCtdV2yD6ukEa2lo66iynNNuF-vCvW2I18ZkGeLZ8M8YSZQUFgDX5jrWRaVaipl2b0jY1Ij8Sjz5VNTXO_6qb5oKEwSQIdTI2pIVz4VW64QCi2X4kGfr1xS9Rano76Yy3wvgeF6Xr69uoo4Yraoyq84Mkw2axBJPHHVv3jNSWUqa5lFtDtaBkvl4ISsvaCVGTq71bTNq41-GGTq6mfrRQPtlZJx_0aMvFwPcb8rhUIWlpDPSD2gU1YTtkJO2axi0s_nQahwjT350GYVxGtdKpp8XzGRR-T7qJ0ePuIVNW-f_gf6jIJydxhPIyZCkAYe9B4G5DHUBc5Ot25t1rIgTVWQKJOYoQZpdFoP_52Ew-Ax03kPTIVWKmTdhF14moRgV9biR7NPkGA2yDJP2aWTAd1nIN5PImcrbvWY3C_Uuj8k-kN3eJkUTCHY5KKc2WGSYIJOhNUw6YjL9d41QzLdWQ=w1571-h942-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 30, 2021, 12:36:15 AM
Little black & white highway marker signs are near the signals & also on the 2 larger signs.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/QYyoVrwveOgywiq0Mwyuk9SiX7A_5c-IwMnAn5pDwnoRLlTwsV5Kd17GTaqDDcAGO_aszrLg0MCbWdY3Cmiggcz9mH6v2NQqD_TeTGjn1AiPCJaKBMt-FTpFeMJOIdjSYMlfsrjWV1McDq58w8_8T77E5pRhihM6nuRcas9Sbp8tl58KW4JySDwMenUeZYpdRL9DvVWxwHyGmIKIO4OO7vmDt5Ocxiw2ckHcZ_augUT9Zy_Q2DMIK2v0LgpYltkwxHdqsE89A66PhhUuLziNxIOArww6AwHVt4_ZlpVzCmoUY6eu6q9DZw4tvqHXZLM6FdWcroJsu_dMrnFmrOWISevbn9GOBFfU1gnvHjMuWtkZh4xUmzcPl0SVKvXaheLc0tIQzT5d6F2ma-xR9H8wv9k8eoJY75eUIWczYstJN049u2zWCeOl_31jShmSzXKEd550I__l6ERijzQ1kACHhQJTLBpThaq9AprvW-0etj-0ELiYo3f0umWsdr-uMxDTHvu6FXgd-A1iuAV0Ewl_4jPDpm8vlOqpZdfvL7SnEg29NxS8No8hHJEtayS11FPrhSwIb5Lz9qFU6elO5Ts4WyX1x-oGIQQh6Hp0Rr_IA1AByKIHrGBQAVNN6yNjLrRiMgncrW66qsPKvDdpNJxW8ShAMvEiSkZkWoIV-D3MQ4_pdQZHLfWKTGBVpjcAN1im3UMnrQ8iwocy6hhKEysXmeM5=w1290-h626-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 30, 2021, 12:57:54 AM
Harold Norman was looking out of the 5th floor window directly under Oswald. 
FBI REPORT RE STATEMENT OF HAROLD NORMAN NOV 26 1963……………. He stated that about the time the car in which the President was riding turned on to Elm St, he heard a shot…….
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zCFSOq898-ZLsbeE8OGx8CNdazUft1BlfRiGLwMUdlZRwZnS1z3FOQ1jF_e98lblquUjRuh2wTCrYPdCtADghaz0aCce7rWJST-UfDGZKrw7qLHxlDzms3t4RmSOotW5QrE2gI6OzsRIm44hUB7y5kPbT3WGB9pvsKeOV2iMTgh7bfYZR7DY3AbpBRK7pJic3A05Hyqf1sLH66uUgGTxr2IgxGm-lRdbuiTpBO9xOksy4ngpN9Tk1DM20kl5ofqHnDyHak5DdUU7DwGsqMCNggARcbRXCxYpuNR_OWNRyfebvrCe8nRXlfHL76Jzni5a1DXYZhbXGuC8Q8qTclmami_gXsHF_crKCRLfjQ1rrDfC_74ptvfi3duX67Opw0wkM3r_Vvc9tUHRlwVKAoaqCmrKZC-_zVxzY2wZldUpyIllYqT36LAZBjE_v9QC6YF_-qj7Ww6gx4SGjxgmyK9Ny5U07fOY1f3gOncjgtZMe7YFbBujG3VAQtTH54nW0vUFRNiVyVUp0n6hlGqXF5nqgiCUgV3PKM4SMWfq1p_iyyhS3lWQHya-f9R_xHAmi4IYusALHYq-7ytpQ-epsrvFL6Bnja1BUy2UKTNidJFu5xdmUTJFTJRcoZyvkIgItUcZniUfY0rS3mAd1l9VGYk9GBe-Ibq74md3TDstYRzq5X06hhn9RQ9nnMGRCvWbayrt6DrR0yYphyiQPp8zCJZY5xiU=w605-h1007-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Joffrey van de Wiel on March 31, 2021, 04:52:24 AM
The pictures, for some reason beyond my comprehension, fail to show up. Can you post a photo of the hole in the limousine floor?
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 31, 2021, 05:23:08 AM
The pictures, for some reason beyond my comprehension, fail to show up. Can you post a photo of the hole in the limousine floor?
That pix of the hole in the floor is in about 3 threads here. I will fix them up right away. Praps i didnt make them public, in which case they would praps show for members like myself but not for non-members. I will fix. That pix of the hole aint in Robin Unger's gallery, but i know that he knows of the pix.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on April 01, 2021, 01:07:43 AM
The pictures, for some reason beyond my comprehension, fail to show up. Can you post a photo of the hole in the limousine floor?
I just then included a photo of the hole in the floor using the photoimages hosting site, my first go at using their site, so there are now 3 identical photos in that posting using 3 different hosting sites (see reply #14 on previous page).  How many of them 3 kum up ok for u?
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on April 06, 2021, 12:38:12 AM
LARRY A. SNEED   A high school U.S. history teacher in Georgia for thirty-five years, Sneed became an assassination researcher in the early 1980s and recorded over sixty hours of interviews with eyewitnesses and law enforcement officials between 1987 and 1992.  He published first-person narratives of those oral histories in the book No More Silence(1998).  Recorded November 2, 2009.

T E Moore told Sneed that the first shot was when JFK was level with the highway marker, ie just past the signals.  This is i think the best witness evidence that we have re where Oswald's shot-1 happened. And it confirms that shot-1 was time-wise at Z113, & that JFK was from Oswald's view in line with the signal arm.  Here is the excerpt from Sneed's book.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3wF9g04k/Moore-highway-marker.jpg)

Here we can see the highway marker, just past the signals.

(https://i.postimg.cc/kgdxfXdK/signals-highway-marker.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on April 06, 2021, 01:12:27 AM
Here is the highway marker in a printscreen from the 1963 Secret Service Reconstruction.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FR9hPWyg/signals-highway-marker-1963-Copy.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on April 06, 2021, 01:31:40 AM
The highway marker signs as seen by Oswald from 6th floor.

(https://i.postimg.cc/2jThzg3v/highway-marker-from-6th-floor-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on April 06, 2021, 01:49:09 AM
FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION  Date January 10, 1964
T.E. MOORE, Deputy District Court Clerk, Records Building, advised that on November 22, 1963, he took his lunch hour to observe the Presidential Motorcade. He was standing at the southeast corner of Elm and Houston and observed the motorcade going by, turning west from Houston to Elm Street. By the time President KENNEDY had reached the Thornton Freeway sign, a shot was fired and Mr. MOORE observed the President slumping forward in the Presidential car. Mr. MOORE heard two more shots fired, however, the President was out of Mr. MOORE's sight at the time the last two were fired. Mr. MOORE noticed some of the bystanders on the north side of Elm Street below the concrete pavillion, rushing away from the street across the grass toward the concrete pavilion. Mr. MOORE stated that at the sound of the first shot, he looked up toward the Texas School Book Depository because the shot sounded like it had come from a high area, however, he did not observe anything noteworthy at the Texas School Book Depository.
He stated that approximately ten minutes later, the Texas School Book Depository was surrounded by police officers.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
on 1-8-64 at Dallas, Texas File # DL 100-10461  By Special Agent GEORGE T. BINNEY Date Dictated 1-9-64


This FBI report is rubbish. 
Moore was standing i think on the south east corner, not the south west.
Moore did not say that the first shot was when JFK was near the large Thornton Freeway sign (at Z200 approx)(shot-2 was at Z218), he would have said that it was when JFK was near the small highway marker signs just past the signals (at Z113).  Agent Binney made an honest mistake, or more likely it was dishonest, an early shot would magnify the perception that the Secret Service Agents responded much too slowly.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on April 11, 2021, 10:19:30 AM
I found a new witness, HOWARD WHATLEY, who said that shot-1 came just as the limo got straight on Elm St, ie near the signals, ie near my Z113 (ie not at Z160 or Z180 or whatever). Howard posted the following wordage on another forum.

Howard Whatley  (3 years ago)(edited).
………………..I was there sir and heard 4 to 6 shots.  I was  about 25 ft. east of TSBD.  You could tell the difference, 1 shot was low kinda muffled, came just as the limo got straight on Elm,  i'm sure it missed.
………………. That's right, and the two were different sounds, the first of the two wasn't quite as loud the second, sounded lower in tone but louder.  Iv'e killed many deer and hogs, and the sound of a bullet hitting a skull or anything else does not make a sound similar to the actual discharge of a rifle.  Sometimes a popping sound is conman.
…………… Right, strictly by chance, i didn't even know he was coming until they told us at the courthouse.  Went there to get manage licence.  Never spoke much about it.  Went back to camp Pendleton Sunday, came back home in jan 1964.  My  wife and i made a vow not to tell anyone and i kept it until she passed away in 2005.   There's a couple things i never heard anyone mention, what i saw and heard some of the witness' have said and some the complete opposite.   Will say without any doubt there were more than three shots, and the last came so close together no way did they come from a bolt action rifle.

Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on April 14, 2021, 05:58:29 AM
Barbara Rowland was standing on the east side of Houston St about 150ft from the TSBD.  She said that the first shot was as they turned the corner.  Her husband said that the first shot was as they started down Elm St.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fb4d27cv/barbara-rowland-WC.jpg)
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0097b.htm
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on April 14, 2021, 06:41:31 AM
At 1:20 Connally says …… "we had just turned the corner, we heard a shot…."
Notice that Connally is confused, he thinks that JFK had been badly wounded by the first shot, but in fact JFK & Connally had been both hit by the magic bullet ie the 2nd shot at Z218.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on May 05, 2021, 01:18:58 PM
I found a new witness, Christopher, who reckons that Oswald's shot-1 didn't touch the signals/backboard.
11 March 2007 -- 11 Seconds in Dallas, Not Six -- By Max Holland and Johann W. Rush.
https://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2007/03/11-seconds-in-d.html

Christopher
I was an electrician's apprentice charged with changing out the traffic signals in 2004, when Dallas went from 8" light bulb to 12" LED.
The one signal I never Ebay'd or sold for scrap is the one from the mast arm over Elm.
By most accounts, it looks similar to the ones depicted in the pictures I see; and from what I can tell, it's a roughly 1947 model signal.
I'm looking at it right now, and while I don't see any dents that appear bullet-like,
I can tell you that the rectangular tin frame around the signal was installed slightly crooked,
which allows more light to come through on the bottom-right corner (closest to the depository).
This might explain why some thought there was bullet-damage on the light itself, as opposed to the mast arm.
Had I read this a decade ago, I'd have checked that arm for ya ;^).
Posted by: Christopher | 12 September 2013 at 02:25 AM


In that article Holland says that Oswald's shot-1 was 1.4 sec before Z133, which makes it at Z107-108, timewise.
I reckon it was at Z113, timewise. So, we differ timewise, & i bet that Holland is less wrong than me.
But pozzy-wize we agree to the inch, shot-1 was when JFK was in line with the signal arm.

(https://i.postimg.cc/qqH25yFv/signal-from-jfk.jpg)

Actually we can see a hole near the lower right corner in this here Oswald's view too, but it aint a bullet hole.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNvzjy2F/signal-arm-ricochet.png)

The camera in the limo must have been nearly into the left lane. But if the limo & the camera were properly positioned then its line of sight to Oswald would be some inches left of the collar or coupling, ie the slug would have ricocheted off the guy rod not the 2" arm.
 (https://i.postimg.cc/VvxFq2q5/looking-up-at-Dorman-Adams-Osw-ald.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on May 06, 2021, 12:44:44 AM
LARRY A. SNEED   A high school U.S. history teacher in Georgia for thirty-five years, Sneed became an assassination researcher in the early 1980s and recorded over sixty hours of interviews with eyewitnesses and law enforcement officials between 1987 and 1992.  He published first-person narratives of those oral histories in the book No More Silence(1998).  Recorded November 2, 2009.

T E Moore told Sneed that the first shot was when JFK was level with the highway marker, ie just past the signals.  This is i think the best witness evidence that we have re where Oswald's shot-1 happened. And it confirms that shot-1 was time-wise at Z113, & that JFK was from Oswald's view in line with the signal arm.  Here is the excerpt from Sneed's book.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/firstshot/t-e-moore-first-shot.png)

Moore apparently was referring to the Thornton Freeway sign, which has highway numbers on it.

(https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/jfk-final-minutes-06.jpg)

It could be Moore in the 1960s was familiar with the sign being called Thornton, but by the 1980s wasn't able to recall the term Thornton.

Moore wasn't side-to to the limousine, so his estimation that the President "had reached the Thronton Freeway sign" at the moment of the first shot would have been from an oblique view. It seems to work well with a first shot in the Z150s, being heard by some about Z161. A first shot in the Z200s would probably mean the President was blocked from Moore's view by the Queen Mary and the agents stood on the car's running boards.

The cluster sign stand you refer to could not be characterized as a "highway marker sign". The "RL Thornton Freeway" sign refers to a highway.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on May 06, 2021, 08:33:57 AM
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/firstshot/t-e-moore-first-shot.png)

Moore apparently was referring to the Thornton Freeway sign, which has highway numbers on it.

(https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/jfk-final-minutes-06.jpg)

It could be Moore in the 1960s was familiar with the sign being called Thornton, but by the 1980s wasn't able to recall the term Thornton.

Moore wasn't side-to to the limousine, so his estimation that the President "had reached the Thronton Freeway sign" at the moment of the first shot would have been from an oblique view. It seems to work well with a first shot in the Z150s, being heard by some about Z161. A first shot in the Z200s would probably mean the President was blocked from Moore's view by the Queen Mary and the agents stood on the car's running boards.

The cluster sign stand you refer to could not be characterized as a "highway marker sign". The "RL Thornton Freeway" sign refers to a highway.
My Reply#23 says that Moore said a small highway marker sign, in front of the TSBD.
The twin cluster sign stand a half car length past the signals has nothing but highway markers, about 14 of them.
The Thornton sign is not a small highway marker, but as u say it has 6 little highway markers below.
Strange, the last time i looked at the FBI report it had two errors, it nominated the Thornton sign, &, it had Moore standing near the wrong corner, someone has doctored the wording.
Moore said he was standing 6 or 8 paces out into the intersection from the southeast corner.
And, he said he could see all of the action down Elm St, subject of course as u say to being blocked by Queen Mary & Co.
And, if the JFK limo had just then straightened on Elm, then the question of judging distance doesnt rear its ugly head.

Is Thornton a Freeway or is it a turnpike?  Or is Stemmons a turnpike, praps a long way further north.
The furtherest sign says that there is some kind of turnpike before Fort Worth.

Oswald shot-1. JFK at distance one limo length past the signals. Ricochets off western side of western signal arm guy rod. Hull found at SN.
Oswald shot-1. Oswald fired at T137 which is say Z112, slug lands at T138 ie Z113, noise arrives at T139 ie Z114.
Max Holland says shot-1 was at time Z107-8.
Dale Myers says that shot-1 was at i think T150 or some silly such late number. No it was at T138.
Oswald shot-1. A spray of fine lead hits the back of JFK's head (XRays).
Remnant slug makes non-round hole in limo floor (photo), & probly hits driveshaft & road (& aint found).
The FMJ broke in 2 as is usual (CE567 CE569 found in limo).

Oswald shot-2. JFK at time & distance Z218 (the magic bullet)(found). Hull found at SN.

Hickey shot-1. JFK at time & distance Z313, blows some of JFK's head off (small lead fragments found in head)'
Hickey shot-1. Remnant slug veered 6 deg & cracked glass (& aint found).
Hickey shot-2. JFK at time Z316 (slug makes dent in chrome trim)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-3. JFK at time Z319 (slug hits tarmac Elm St)(possibly wounded Tague)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-4. JFK at time Z321 (slug hits curb Elm St)(possibly wounded Tague)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-5. JFK at time Z324 (slug hits grass)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-6. JFK at time Z327 (if Hickey fired 6 shots)(slug hits curb Main St)(possibly wounded Tague).
[edit][i have now established that it was shot-6 or at least the last shot that was the JFK headshot, ie shot-5 dented the chrome trim, shot-1 possibly wounded Tague etc.][see my thread Bronson Saw Hickey Shoot JFK.]
None of the 5 or 6 hulls are found. They must have somehow stayed in Queen Mary, & were picked up by Agents on the way to Parklands, & secreted.
The AR15 01 fired at 400 rps (but zero footages on youtube) & would have ejected the hulls say half the distance of modern AR15's which fired at 1200 rps (when autos were still legal)(lots of footages of ejections & ejaculations on youtube).
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on May 06, 2021, 05:11:28 PM
My Reply#23 says that Moore said a small highway marker sign, in front of the TSBD.

Notice Moore refers to the sign in the singular.

Quote
The twin cluster sign stand a half car length past the signals has nothing but highway markers, about 14 of them.

Would be hard to refer to such a sign in the singular.

Quote
The Thornton sign is not a small highway marker, but as u say it has 6 little highway markers below.

Moore refers twice to the sign being just a highway marker.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3wF9g04k/Moore-highway-marker.jpg)

He refers to a "small number sign" only after he first refers to the highway marker.

Quote
Strange, the last time i looked at the FBI report it had two errors, it nominated the Thornton sign,

I highly doubt an agent would just arbitrarily write down Thornton sign.

Quote
&, it had Moore standing near the wrong corner, someone has doctored the wording.
Moore said he was standing 6 or 8 paces out into the intersection from the southeast corner.

The report likewise has Moore at the southeast corner.

Quote
And, he said he could see all of the action down Elm St, subject of course as u say to being blocked by Queen Mary & Co.
And, if the JFK limo had just then straightened on Elm, then the question of judging distance doesnt rear its ugly head.

Is Thornton a Freeway or is it a turnpike?  Or is Stemmons a turnpike, praps a long way further north.
The furtherest sign says that there is some kind of turnpike before Fort Worth.

There's a handy exit ramp for folks being misled by your theory.

Quote

Oswald shot-1. JFK at distance one limo length past the signals. Ricochets off western side of western signal arm guy rod. Hull found at SN.
Oswald shot-1. Oswald fired at T137 which is say Z112, slug lands at T138 ie Z113, noise arrives at T139 ie Z114.
Max Holland says shot-1 was at time Z107-8.
Dale Myers says that shot-1 was at i think T150 or some silly such late number. No it was at T138.

Tina Towner (who filmed the frame T138) said the first shot occurred after she stopped filming. She said she was getting ready to leave, though she might have meant she was mentally turning her thoughts towards leaving. Zapruder never said the first shot occurred before he began filming. But I guess they're "silly".

Quote
Oswald shot-1. A spray of fine lead hits the back of JFK's head (XRays).
Remnant slug makes non-round hole in limo floor (photo), & probly hits driveshaft & road (& aint found).
The FMJ broke in 2 as is usual (CE567 CE569 found in limo).

Oswald shot-2. JFK at time & distance Z218 (the magic bullet)(found). Hull found at SN.

Hickey shot-1. JFK at time & distance Z313, blows some of JFK's head off (small lead fragments found in head)'
Hickey shot-1. Remnant slug veered 6 deg & cracked glass (& aint found).
Hickey shot-2. JFK at time Z316 (slug makes dent in chrome trim)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-3. JFK at time Z319 (slug hits tarmac Elm St)(possibly wounded Tague)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-4. JFK at time Z321 (slug hits curb Elm St)(possibly wounded Tague)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-5. JFK at time Z324 (slug hits grass)(& aint found).
Hickey shot-6. JFK at time Z327 (if Hickey fired 6 shots)(slug hits curb Main St)(possibly wounded Tague).

The Bronson film shows Hickey at a height such that his rifle could not go above the Queen Mary's windshield, let alone the upraised sun-visors.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/51/ba/5CbPyY7I_o.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
From the Pat Speer site.
 
(https://images2.imgbox.com/6e/3c/hIIVCKtq_o.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
From the Pat Speer site.
Line drawing of the Hickey shot from the "Mortal Error" book (flipped for comparison purposes) and superimposed over a Bronson film frame. Agents were seated too low to accord with the "Mortal Error" drawing.

Quote
None of the 5 or 6 hulls are found. They must have somehow stayed in Queen Mary, & were picked up by Agents on the way to Parklands, & secreted.
The AR15 01 fired at 400 rps (but zero footages on youtube) & would have ejected the hulls say half the distance of modern AR15's which fired at 1200 rps (when autos were still legal)(lots of footages of ejections & ejaculations on youtube).

Your theory is mental ejaculation. :D
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on May 06, 2021, 09:38:18 PM
Your "singular" semantic argument gets 0 out of 10 from me.
Likewise your "Thornton" argument gets 0 out of 10.
I will give u a 10 out of 10 for the FBI report having the correct SE corner (it must have been me that was confused by Moore's word "cater").
I will give u 1 out of 10 for saying that Towner stopped filming before shot-1, if indeed she ever said that.
But i remember her saying that she couldnt recall whether it was just before or just after. And my film analysis says JFK was on Oswald's sight line to the signal arm at T137, slug arives at T138, sound arrives at T139, Towner finishes at T142 which is 3 frames after, but allowing 1 frame to reach Towner's brain, & allowing 1 frame for the ear part of the brain to tell the Towner part of the brain, then Towner "hears" shot-1 at T141, almost a draw.

I will give u 10 out of 10 for saying that Donahue drew Hickey high up to not only help his needed wound traject but also to get clearance over the windshield.
I have previously shown in my "was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode" thread that the AR15 needed to be more than 3" higher than the windshield (based on being on level ground), not Donahue's 18" (cant remember his exact number)(here i did not look into Donahue's wound trajectory).

The Bronson frame supposedly showing Hickey sitting at Z313 i have explained to be later than Z313. (I give u 1 out of 10 here).
And Hickey was half standing in that Bronson frame, Bennett was the one sitting low down.
I have explained all of that in my Bronson threads.
The superior 2019 Bronson frame (of that there inferior 2017 Bronson frame from Robin Unger's gallery) shows that the AR15 was rapidly swinging up at 45 deg. The frame that u tout that sinks the Hickey theory actually reinforces the Hickey theory.

I dont know why Zapruder & many others did not hear shot-1 being at Z113. (I give u 1 out of 10 here).
But many (including i think Zapruder) said that the first shot was at Z210 to Z230.
I think that this deafness might have been due to peer pressure & the passage of time.
And due to FBI etc pressure pushing questions & even answers the way they liked.
U will recall that the FBI could have questioned everyone near the signals etc but they questioned very few.
And these A-grade witnesses were asked questions such as "did u see anyone strange in the TSBD".
And "where were u standing".
And "how many shots did u hear".
Thank u mam, that will be all, oh, just one more thing, "what did u have for breakfast".

I forgive Donahue for his silly drawing. He is one of my heroes, having found that Hickey fired the headshot.
And Max Holland is a hero, for finding that shot-1 ricocheted off the signals (& i forgive Max for being a LNer).
And Colin McLaren is a hero (alltho i cant remember what his contribution was)(i think his only contribution was to draw attention to Donahue & Holland).

And i am a hero, for finding that Hickey fired a plurality of shots, alltho Floyd Boring was the one who first mentioned it many years ago, albeit to poo poo the possibility that Hickey fired, he said that if Hickey fired he almost certainly would have had the AR15 in AUTO, & that Hickey would have fired 2 or 3 shots not 1 shot. However i didnt know of Boring until this week. I figured it out myself. Anyhow that's my theory. It can be called mental ejaculation.

I bring certain skills. My background includes road design. Traffic accident analysis. Design of drain inlets & systems. Surveying. Design, drawing, drafting, CAD. Hence i find it easy to
look into much of this stuff.
Mostly i reckon that i can spot the difference tween truth & camel spombleprofglidnoctobuns. Otherwise i would be a CTer or a LNer.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on May 08, 2021, 06:47:59 PM
Your "singular" semantic argument gets 0 out of 10 from me.
Likewise your "Thornton" argument gets 0 out of 10.

You're so invested in this, you're beyond persuasion. My reality checks are for the benefit of readers.

Quote
I will give u a 10 out of 10 for the FBI report having the correct SE corner (it must have been me that was confused by Moore's word "cater").
I will give u 1 out of 10 for saying that Towner stopped filming before shot-1, if indeed she ever said that.
But i remember her saying that she couldnt recall whether it was just before or just after.

Tina Towner has been consistent in stating the first shot occurred after she stopped filming, the span ranging from a few seconds to four. You might be thinking of her appearance in "JFK: The Lost Bullet" when they failed to present her timing of the first shot, but had room for things like "My dad recognized the gunshot."

Quote
And my film analysis says JFK was on Oswald's sight line to the signal arm at T137, slug arives at T138, sound arrives at T139, Towner finishes at T142 which is 3 frames after, but allowing 1 frame to reach Towner's brain, & allowing 1 frame for the ear part of the brain to tell the Towner part of the brain, then Towner "hears" shot-1 at T141, almost a draw.

I will give u 10 out of 10 for saying that Donahue drew Hickey high up to not only help his needed wound traject but also to get clearance over the windshield.
I have previously shown in my "was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode" thread that the AR15 needed to be more than 3" higher than the windshield (based on being on level ground), not Donahue's 18" (cant remember his exact number)(here i did not look into Donahue's wound trajectory).

The Bronson frame supposedly showing Hickey sitting at Z313 i have explained to be later than Z313. (I give u 1 out of 10 here).

(https://images2.imgbox.com/51/ba/5CbPyY7I_o.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
From the Pat Speer site.
 
(https://images2.imgbox.com/6e/3c/hIIVCKtq_o.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
From the Pat Speer site.
Line drawing of the Hickey shot from the "Mortal Error" book (flipped for comparison purposes) and superimposed over a Bronson film frame. Agents were seated too low to accord with the "Mortal Error" drawing.

Sorry but the frame presented by Pat Speer is indeed the Bronson frame that corresponds to Z313.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/34/2f/UGCctw94_o.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
Kenneth Weissman (KSW Consulting LLC) analysis 2020.

In this Bronson frame, Hickey is about a half-head higher and to camera-right of Bennett, Bennett being the figure above the camera-right crack of the rear door in the superimposed Donahue drawing. A rifle held at Hickey's shoulder level would fire a bullet to Kennedy's shull that would go through the Queen Mary's windshield.

Quote
And Hickey was half standing in that Bronson frame, Bennett was the one sitting low down.
I have explained all of that in my Bronson threads.

Yes, a website had an arrow for Hickey that pointed to Bennett.

Quote
The superior 2019 Bronson frame (of that there inferior 2017 Bronson frame from Robin Unger's gallery) shows that the AR15 was rapidly swinging up at 45 deg. The frame that u tout that sinks the Hickey theory actually reinforces the Hickey theory.

Weissman used a better-quality frame and determined the linear "rifle" features in an earlier frame capture were "some grain clumping".
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
(https://images2.imgbox.com/57/8e/ObpwgdON_o.jpg)

Quote
I dont know why Zapruder & many others did not hear shot-1 being at Z113. (I give u 1 out of 10 here).
But many (including i think Zapruder) said that the first shot was at Z210 to Z230.
I think that this deafness might have been due to peer pressure & the passage of time.
And due to FBI etc pressure pushing questions & even answers the way they liked.

Marilyn Sitzman, who steadied Zapruder and would have heard the sound of the camera motor, said:
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
    "and just as the motorcycles ... started down the hill, he started taking
     pictures then ... There was noting unusual until the first sound."

Quote
U will recall that the FBI could have questioned everyone near the signals etc but they questioned very few.
And these A-grade witnesses were asked questions such as "did u see anyone strange in the TSBD".
And "where were u standing".
And "how many shots did u hear".
Thank u mam, that will be all, oh, just one more thing, "what did u have for breakfast".

You get to dismiss testimony and opinion contrary to your pet theory because authorities were disingenuous.

Quote
I forgive Donahue for his silly drawing. He is one of my heroes, having found that Hickey fired the headshot.
And Max Holland is a hero, for finding that shot-1 ricocheted off the signals (& i forgive Max for being a LNer).
And Colin McLaren is a hero (alltho i cant remember what his contribution was)(i think his only contribution was to draw attention to Donahue & Holland).

And those "heroes" have statues with manure spreaders for pedestals.

Quote
And i am a hero,

It's your theory that's a zero.

Quote
for finding that Hickey fired a plurality of shots, alltho Floyd Boring was the one who first mentioned it many years ago, albeit to poo poo the possibility that Hickey fired, he said that if Hickey fired he almost certainly would have had the AR15 in AUTO, & that Hickey would have fired 2 or 3 shots not 1 shot. However i didnt know of Boring until this week. I figured it out myself. Anyhow that's my theory. It can be called mental ejaculation.

I bring certain skills. My background includes road design. Traffic accident analysis. Design of drain inlets & systems. Surveying. Design, drawing, drafting, CAD. Hence i find it easy to
look into much of this stuff.
Mostly i reckon that i can spot the difference tween truth & camel spombleprofglidnoctobuns. Otherwise i would be a CTer or a LNer.

You're a pseudo-fence-sitter. Like the "Independent" voter who actually favors one party but are just too lazy or disingenuous to give an answer. They think it makes them more "clever" and "open-minded" than the Decided.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Mark Tyler on May 08, 2021, 11:58:03 PM
You're so invested in this, you're beyond persuasion. My reality checks are for the benefit of readers.

Tina Towner has been consistent in stating the first shot occurred after she stopped filming, the span ranging from a few seconds to four. You might be thinking of her appearance in "JFK: The Lost Bullet" when they failed to present her timing of the first shot, but had room for things like "My dad recognized the gunshot."

Hi Jerry.  I've not been able to track down many early Tina Towner interviews, just Life magazine and Teen magazine from 1967-1968.  She does seem clear that the shooting started after her filming stopped.  Are there any other interviews I have missed from the 1960's or 1970's that you know of?

Do you have any strong views on when the first shot was fired or do you think the evidence is too ambiguous to be certain?
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Mark Tyler on May 09, 2021, 12:39:35 AM
At 1:20 Connally says …… "we had just turned the corner, we heard a shot…."
Notice that Connally is confused, he thinks that JFK had been badly wounded by the first shot, but in fact JFK & Connally had been both hit by the magic bullet ie the 2nd shot at Z218.

Hi Marjan.  This bedside interview is a great reminder of the fact that John Connally had a near death experience and may not be the best witness in the world.  Someone told me a few months ago to completely ignore everything he said because he was too confused to be reliable and Nellie Connally had groomed him into believing what she heard which was two shots in quick succession with the first hitting JFK and the second hitting Connally.

On the other hand he did mention looking back at JFK which he definitely did do in the Zapruder film by frame Z275:
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z275.jpg)

However, most people think he was hit by Z225 (Connally himself studied the Z-film for the Warren Commission and said he was hit by Z230).  I feel some of his statements ring true, but others are confused (such as he said he looked over to his left at JFK, when actually he looked over to his right).
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on May 09, 2021, 01:27:29 AM
You're so invested in this, you're beyond persuasion. My reality checks are for the benefit of readers.
Tina Towner has been consistent in stating the first shot occurred after she stopped filming, the span ranging from a few seconds to four. You might be thinking of her appearance in "JFK: The Lost Bullet" when they failed to present her timing of the first shot, but had room for things like "My dad recognized the gunshot."
My only memory of Tina re shot-1 is that (i think it was in a modern youtube interview) she said that she wasn’t sure whether just before or just after. I have no knowledge of any other wordage, & i am surprised that she said a few second after or  four sec after.  Back in february i spent a whole day analysing the JFK pozzy relative to the painted white striped lane lines & i found that JFK was on the Carcano to signal arm line at Towner T137, slug hit at T138, sound hit at T139.  And Tina would have "heard" at say T141.  And T142 was her last frame.  A very accurate 3D analysis might show that my geometry calculations were out a foot or two, which would equate to a frame or two.
And i didn’t do an accurate assessment of limo speed etc to calculate when T137-138-139 might have happened in relation to Zapruder's footage, ie if Zapruder had started that sequence earlier.  I simply roughly worked it out based on i think 1 foot of limo travel per Zapruder frame, which gave me Z112-113-114.  Hence that could be a long way out timewise, which aint very important, the main thing being exactly where not when, the where being that shot-1 hit the signal arm, & of course that being the when i suppose.

In Reply#27 i alerted this forum to a new witness Howard Whatley who said that the shot-1 was just as the limo straightened up in Elm St. And he was standing out in the intersection near the north west corner, ie much closer than Moore near the south east corner.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/51/ba/5CbPyY7I_o.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
From the Pat Speer site.
 
(https://images2.imgbox.com/6e/3c/hIIVCKtq_o.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
From the Pat Speer site.
Line drawing of the Hickey shot from the "Mortal Error" book (flipped for comparison purposes) and superimposed over a Bronson film frame. Agents were seated too low to accord with the "Mortal Error" drawing.
I have drawn proper drawings.  The AR15 needed to be at least 3" higher than the windshield (based on being on level ground).  And i have shown that the AR15 in Donahue's drawing (which is drawn 10" higher than the windshield) would be at chest height on Hickey if Hickey were standing on carpet.
And, nearly forgot, if Queen Mary were braking (which it was) then the front might sink an inch & rear might rise an inch, which brings that there  3" down to praps 1".  However me myself i reckon that the AR15 was at say 10", the 1" being the minimum.
Sorry but the frame presented by Pat Speer is indeed the Bronson frame that corresponds to Z313.
Now, that is the only legitimate concern arising from all of your wordage.  I was thinking yesterday that i needed to have another look at where Z313 sits in the Bronson footage. Months ago i worked out that that Bronson frame was at about Z315.  That’s a tight squeeze but do-able if Hickey fired one shot, ie Hickey would be standing at Z313 & sitting at Z315.  But yesterday i was thinking that my theory that Hickey fired an auto burst of 6 shots needed that Bronson frame to be at say Z329.  I will have to re-visit that stuff.
It would be nice if The 6th Floor Museum made public its superior 2019 copies of the Bronson frames (20 frames).
(https://images2.imgbox.com/34/2f/UGCctw94_o.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
Kenneth Weissman (KSW Consulting LLC) analysis 2020.
In this Bronson frame, Hickey is about a half-head higher and to camera-right of Bennett, Bennett being the figure above the camera-right crack of the rear door in the superimposed Donahue drawing. A rifle held at Hickey's shoulder level would fire a bullet to Kennedy's skull that would go through the Queen Mary's windshield.
Yes, a website had an arrow for Hickey that pointed to Bennett.
I dealt with this stuff in my Reply#37 in my thread re "was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode?".  Here is the drawing, & today i added the yellow & green lines.  When Hickey was half sitting half standing on the 2 leather cases on the back seat the top of Hickey's head was level with the bottom of the heads of the standing Agents (see yellow ovals). 
I have drawn Bennett's head (yellow oval) level with the top of the windshield, however in photos it was below the windshield (not important here). The Secret Service said that had JFK been sitting in Queen Mary his head would have been 62" above the road, ie 2" above the windshield, ie 9.22" above the level of JFK's head in the JFK limo.  But that was based on Hess & Eisenhardt's estimate of 52.78" for JFK's head in the limo, which is a ridiculously low number (my estimate is 57").
The fat green line shows a possible slug traject clearing the windshield based on Queen Mary dipping a couple of inches due to braking. This in effect lowers the needed elevation of the AR15 to 61", ie 1" above the windshield.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fb3M2QmR/Hickey-trajectories-2.jpg)
Weissman used a better-quality frame and determined the linear "rifle" features in an earlier frame capture were "some grain clumping".
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
(https://images2.imgbox.com/57/8e/ObpwgdON_o.jpg)
I dealt with all of this in my thread re "was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode?".  The superior 2019 copy shown by Weissman in fact supports my theory, koz we can see a rapidly swinging upwards AR15, which supports my theory that Hickey was rapidly falling backwards.  And it proves that the AR15 sitting up at 45 deg in the 2017 copy is not an artifact.
The critical thing being that we need to establish very accurately whether that frame was at Z313 (they say) or at Z315 (i said) or at Z329 (to fully support my 6-shot auto burst theory).
Marilyn Sitzman, who steadied Zapruder and would have heard the sound of the camera motor, said:
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
    "and just as the motorcycles ... started down the hill, he started taking
     pictures then ... There was nothing unusual until the first sound."
You get to dismiss testimony and opinion contrary to your pet theory because authorities were disingenuous.
If 99% of witness wordage is false then no theory survives without dismissing the contrary wordage.  But any such dismissing needs to be logical.  Sitzman appears to me to be one of the better witnesses.  However there were lots of witnesses that heard a very early shot.
And those "heroes" have statues with manure spreaders for pedestals.  It's your theory that's a zero.  You're a pseudo-fence-sitter. Like the "Independent" voter who actually favors one party but are just too lazy or disingenuous to give an answer. They think it makes them more "clever" and "open-minded" than the Decided.
I haven't spent much time studying the LNer versus CTer stuff (so yes i am lazy).  Hickeyians like myself are i suppose CUers, ie we believe that there was a coverup re Hickey.  In effect Oswald was a lone nutter, who fired 2 shots.  And in effect there was a conspiracy, but after the fact.
I think that i am clever, but everyone is cleverer than me at something, I think i am clever at telling  the difference tween truth & camel droppings.
But it all comes down to the Bronson footage.  I will have another look.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on May 09, 2021, 02:00:06 AM
Hi Marjan.  This bedside interview is a great reminder of the fact that John Connally had a near death experience and may not be the best witness in the world.  Someone told me a few months ago to completely ignore everything he said because he was too confused to be reliable and Nellie Connally had groomed him into believing what she heard which was two shots in quick succession with the first hitting JFK and the second hitting Connally.
On the other hand he did mention looking back at JFK which he definitely did do in the Zapruder film by frame Z275:
However, most people think he was hit by Z225 (Connally himself studied the Z-film for the Warren Commission and said he was hit by Z230).  I feel some of his statements ring true, but others are confused (such as he said he looked over to his left at JFK, when actually he looked over to his right).
Yes Connally was one of the best witnesses. But as u say his wordage did wander a little over the weeks & years. But he in effect supports shot-1 being at the signals.
Nellie was a horrible witness. Jackie was worse.
Notice in the croft photo at Z161 that Jackie & Connally are unhappy. Why? Koz shot-1 has been at the signals at Z113, ie 2.6 sec earlier.
Re shot-2, this i say was at Z218, ie when Connally is halfway throo the Stemmons sign.  Base on him looking right then beginning to rotate left. Z218 is the only frame that shows this. Yes i know it duznt show this koz Connally is hidden at Z218, so lets put it another way, it is the only frame that duznt not show it.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/croft~0.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Mark Tyler on May 10, 2021, 05:23:07 PM
Yes Connally was one of the best witnesses. But as u say his wordage did wander a little over the weeks & years. But he in effect supports shot-1 being at the signals.
Nellie was a horrible witness. Jackie was worse.
Notice in the croft photo at Z161 that Jackie & Connally are unhappy. Why? Koz shot-1 has been at the signals at Z113, ie 2.6 sec earlier.
Re shot-2, this i say was at Z218, ie when Connally is halfway throo the Stemmons sign.  Base on him looking right then beginning to rotate left. Z218 is the only frame that shows this. Yes i know it duznt show this koz Connally is hidden at Z218, so lets put it another way, it is the only frame that duznt not show it.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/croft~0.jpg)

An early shot before the Zapruder film starts is an interesting idea, and well worth exploring, but I have struggled to find evidence in favour of it from the 1963/4 witness statements.  Max Holland and others did a brilliant job about ten years ago interviewing the elderly surviving witnesses, but their 50 year old memories were clearly foggy and not of forensic quality.

For example, Pierce Allman gave a very detail account of what he heard within hours of the assassination:


This is a very useful statement as he was so close to the TSBD, and he saw JFK duck after the first shot (as we see in the Z-film after Z225).  Sadly the ravages of time have taken their toll on Allman's memory and he has started substituting other peoples accounts, and what the Z-film shows, into his own recollections:


He is not alone, and other witnesses are just as bad (e.g. Jean Hill).  The moral of the tale is to use early detailed witness statements if there are any, and ignore any contradictory statements made many years later.

In the Zapruder film we see no sudden reactions from the Secret Service agents at all from Z133-Z195 which leads me to believe that there were no shots at all until after Z180.  Several people standing at the lamppost by the Thornton freeway sign specifically said that the limo had either passed them or was in front of them at the first shot, which again is after Z180, thus eliminating any possibility of an early shot before that point.  Hugh Betzner took a photo at exactly Z186 and said the first shot was fired as he wound his film on, thus ruling out an earlier shot.

A shot fired at Z218 for the so called single bullet theory does have a fair amount of supporting evidence, such as the jiggle in the Z-film at Z227-Z235, which is perfectly consistent with a 9 frame delayed reaction (which closely mirrors the 8 frame delay after the Z310 shot which massively affected the Z-film at Z318 and later).  With the victims reacting just after frame Z224, this again is a close match to Z218 as it would take 3-4 frames or longer for the victims to react (humans don't react instantly to things like this, so 100-200 ms reaction time is normal for the human nervous system to react).

The HSCA said the single bullet theory shot was around Z190 (based on the jiggle analysis and the dictabelt), but this requires a 2 second delayed reaction, which I think is slightly implausible (although not impossible).  A missed shot at Z190 and the SBT at Z220 is also consistent with what John Connally said regarding a 2 second delay between the first and second shots (2:30 into the video):

Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on May 10, 2021, 11:37:31 PM
An early shot before the Zapruder film starts is an interesting idea, and well worth exploring, but I have struggled to find evidence in favour of it from the 1963/4 witness statements.  Max Holland and others did a brilliant job about ten years ago interviewing the elderly surviving witnesses, but their 50 year old memories were clearly foggy and not of forensic quality.

For example, Pierce Allman gave a very detail account of what he heard within hours of the assassination:

This is a very useful statement as he was so close to the TSBD, and he saw JFK duck after the first shot (as we see in the Z-film after Z225).  Sadly the ravages of time have taken their toll on Allman's memory and he has started substituting other peoples accounts, and what the Z-film shows, into his own recollections:

He is not alone, and other witnesses are just as bad (e.g. Jean Hill).  The moral of the tale is to use early detailed witness statements if there are any, and ignore any contradictory statements made many years later.

In the Zapruder film we see no sudden reactions from the Secret Service agents at all from Z133-Z195 which leads me to believe that there were no shots at all until after Z180.  Several people standing at the lamppost by the Thornton freeway sign specifically said that the limo had either passed them or was in front of them at the first shot, which again is after Z180, thus eliminating any possibility of an early shot before that point.  Hugh Betzner took a photo at exactly Z186 and said the first shot was fired as he wound his film on, thus ruling out an earlier shot.

A shot fired at Z218 for the so called single bullet theory does have a fair amount of supporting evidence, such as the jiggle in the Z-film at Z227-Z235, which is perfectly consistent with a 9 frame delayed reaction (which closely mirrors the 8 frame delay after the Z310 shot which massively affected the Z-film at Z318 and later).  With the victims reacting just after frame Z224, this again is a close match to Z218 as it would take 3-4 frames or longer for the victims to react (humans don't react instantly to things like this, so 100-200 ms reaction time is normal for the human nervous system to react).

The HSCA said the single bullet theory shot was around Z190 (based on the jiggle analysis and the dictabelt), but this requires a 2 second delayed reaction, which I think is slightly implausible (although not impossible).  A missed shot at Z190 and the SBT at Z220 is also consistent with what John Connally said regarding a 2 second delay between the first and second shots (2:30 into the video):
I dont remember Pierce Allman. One thing, he says they turned the corner & boom.  Which supports a shot at the signals.
Many witnesses mention an early shot. Moore is the best.  Whatley is good.
If u search Roselle u will find his report on reactions which indicate a shot at the signals.
https://www.acsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-Estimating-Occult-Timing-of-Surprise-Gunshot-Sounds-in-Silent-Film-via-Observed-Start-of-Human-Voluntary-Reactions-of-Concern-Roselle.pdf
The hole in the floor of the limo is a good witness.

Connally is a very good witness.  He never saw JFK or JFK's reaction at any time i think.
Connally heard 2 shots i think, ie both of Oswald's 2 shots. I think he missed hearing Hickey's shots.
Strangely in 1966 he is talking about there being 2 seconds tween shots, when in 1963 he mentions a span of 5 seconds & then another 5 seconds ie 10 or 11 seconds in all, which duznt jell with his statement that he heard only 2 shots.
So many contradictions it makes my brain hurt.

Yes, i explained the reaction times for shot-2 in my thread Oswald's shot-2 was at Z218.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2861.0.html
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Mark Tyler on May 12, 2021, 10:05:37 PM
I dont remember Pierce Allman. One thing, he says they turned the corner & boom.  Which supports a shot at the signals.
Many witnesses mention an early shot. Moore is the best.  Whatley is good.
If u search Weissman u will find his report on reactions which indicate a shot at the signals.
The hole in the floor of the limo is a good witness.

https://topekatornado.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/the-Bronson-Kennedy-assasination-film-investigation-Report.v2.1.pdf
An interesting report by kenneth s weissman -- "report: the bronson kennedy assassination film investigation" -- which says that Robin Unger's 2017 frames of Bronson's film (ie the ones i am using) are not as good as the 2019 frames.

Connally is a very good witness.  He never saw JFK or JFK's reaction at any time i think.
Connally heard 2 shots i think, ie both of Oswald's 2 shots. I think he missed hearing Hickey's shots.
Strangely in 1966 he is talking about there being 2 seconds tween shots, when in 1963 he mentions a span of 5 seconds & then another 5 seconds ie 10 or 11 seconds in all, which duznt jell with his statement that he heard only 2 shots.
So many contradictions it makes my brain hurt.

Yes, i explained the reaction times for shot-2 in my thread Oswald's shot-2 was at Z218.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2861.0.html

You mentioned a witness named "Whatley", but I'm not familiar with this person.  Could you link the source for who this witness was and what they said?

In his statement from January 1964, TE Moore said that JFK had reached the Thornton freeway sign when the first shot was fired.  The general timing of this would have been around Z180-Z200 and can be referenced by the Betzner photo which shows the limo position at Z186 relative to the Thornton freeway sign:

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/betzner_3_crop.jpg)

Moore is one of many witnesses connecting the first shot with the Z180-Z200 timeframe, which directly challenges all theories which have a shot fired before Z170 and confirms that the Zapruder film jiggle Z190-Z210 is a result of Zapruder being startled by the first shot.

One very important point about John Connally's statement is that he said he heard a shot fired 2 second before he was hit, but he never heard the shot that hit him.  In other words the only shots he heard were the shots fired around Z185, and Z310.  This may mean that the 2 second delay was a body shock of some kind and there wasn't a shot fired at Z218 (as the HSCA suggested), or it means there were shots at Z185 and Z218 but he failed to hear the Z218 shot as he was distracted by the pain of the injury.

Sadly this dilemma cannot be resolved by Connally's statement alone, and the other witnesses are split somewhat: most say there was only one shot before JFK raised his arms, but enough mentioned two shots in quick succession so it should be seriously considered as a possibility.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on May 12, 2021, 10:43:28 PM
You mentioned a witness named "Whatley", but I'm not familiar with this person.  Could you link the source for who this witness was and what they said?
I quote Whatley in my Reply#27. I found his words in another forum, i forget which. But i remember that there was no followup discussion worth mentioning. Whatley is still alive & active on forums today i think.
In his statement from January 1964, TE Moore said that JFK had reached the Thornton freeway sign when the first shot was fired.  The general timing of this would have been around Z180-Z200 and can be referenced by the Betzner photo which shows the limo position at Z186 relative to the Thornton freeway sign:
Moore is one of many witnesses connecting the first shot with the Z180-Z200 timeframe, which directly challenges all theories which have a shot fired before Z170 and confirms that the Zapruder film jiggle Z190-Z210 is a result of Zapruder being startled by the first shot.
Moore did not mention the Thornton sign, as explained in my Reply#23 31 33 34 35 38.
One very important point about John Connally's statement is that he said he heard a shot fired 2 second before he was hit, but he never heard the shot that hit him.  In other words the only shots he heard were the shots fired around Z185, and Z310.  This may mean that the 2 second delay was a body shock of some kind and there wasn't a shot fired at Z218 (as the HSCA suggested), or it means there were shots at Z185 and Z218 but he failed to hear the Z218 shot as he was distracted by the pain of the injury.

Sadly this dilemma cannot be resolved by Connally's statement alone, and the other witnesses are split somewhat: most say there was only one shot before JFK raised his arms, but enough mentioned two shots in quick succession so it should be seriously considered as a possibility.
There was mention of JFK raising his arms re shot-1 & also re shot-2. U can see JFK with a raised right arm in the Towner footage, ie at the signals, which i have shown in Reply#12.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on May 13, 2021, 01:22:10 AM
Here is a copy of some of the wordage from the forum that i cant find.

.....................closer than him said they heard 3 shots and they are damn sure of it
Randy Harris 1 year ago
Vern Pascal let's say it's TRUE he was right under the window what the hell does that prove absolutely nothing the first shot missed the second shot that hit Kennedy and went through connally was at 59 yards head shot 88 yards so people had a better vantage point than him if what he is saying is true and I have no reason to believe him
dpitd 1 year ago
And??
1 Michael Barnhart 4 years ago
He did hear 4 sounds - the first two gunshots, then the simultaneous sound of a rifle shot with the sound of the bullet exploding the hard surface of Kennedy's skull. Those who were close enough have all related that - that explains the "boom-boom" effect that they heard on that 3rd shot. People who were farther away heard 3 shots but not the sound of the skull explosion.
Eduardo Flores 3 years ago
Michael Barnhart nope Mr Holland heard  four shots.
Vern Pascal 3 years ago
Worell was damn near under the window. Holland and other RR Workers were on the horizontal on the Triple Underpass, so let's not hear any nonsense about echoes.
Howard Whatley 3 years ago (edited)
i was there sir and heard 4 to 6 shots i was  about 25 ft. east of tsbd. you could tell the difference 1 shot was low kinda muffled
came just as the limo got straight on elm i'm sure it missed
Howard Whatley 3 years ago
that's right,and the two were different sounds the first of the two wasn't quite as loud the second sounded lower in tone but louder.iv'e filled many deer and hogs ,and the sound of a bullet hitting a skull or anything else does not make a sound similar to the actual discharge of a rifle,sometimes a popping sound is conman

Dallas Brubaker 3 years ago (edited)
Howard Whatley, You were in Dealey Plaza on 11-22-1963 at 12"30 pm cst?
Howard Whatley 3 years ago
right strictly by chance,i didn't even know he was coming until the told us at the courthouse.went there to get manage licence.never spoke much about it.went back to camp Pendleton sunday came back home in jan. 1964. my  wife and i made a vow not to tell anyone and i kept it until she passed away in 2005.there's a couple things i never heard anyone mention what i saw and heard some of the witness' have said and some the complete opposite.will say without any doubt there were more than three shots and the last came so close together no way did they come from a bolt action rifle.

Vern Pascal 2 years ago
That's interesting Howard-more witnesses heard shots from the knol/underpass than the TSBD.
Eduardo Flores 2 years ago
No he didn't..!
Rob Rob 2 months ago
 @Howard Whatley  Was there a fear factor in Dallas that witnesses that did not align with the 3 shot line shooter explanation were in danger?
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Mark Tyler on May 14, 2021, 10:03:44 PM
Here is a copy of some of the wordage from the forum that i cant find.

.....................closer than him said they heard 3 shots and they are damn sure of it
Randy Harris 1 year ago
Vern Pascal let's say it's TRUE he was right under the window what the hell does that prove absolutely nothing the first shot missed the second shot that hit Kennedy and went through connally was at 59 yards head shot 88 yards so people had a better vantage point than him if what he is saying is true and I have no reason to believe him
dpitd 1 year ago
And??
1 Michael Barnhart 4 years ago
He did hear 4 sounds - the first two gunshots, then the simultaneous sound of a rifle shot with the sound of the bullet exploding the hard surface of Kennedy's skull. Those who were close enough have all related that - that explains the "boom-boom" effect that they heard on that 3rd shot. People who were farther away heard 3 shots but not the sound of the skull explosion.
Eduardo Flores 3 years ago
Michael Barnhart nope Mr Holland heard  four shots.
Vern Pascal 3 years ago
Worell was damn near under the window. Holland and other RR Workers were on the horizontal on the Triple Underpass, so let's not hear any nonsense about echoes.
Howard Whatley 3 years ago (edited)
i was there sir and heard 4 to 6 shots i was  about 25 ft. east of tsbd. you could tell the difference 1 shot was low kinda muffled
came just as the limo got straight on elm i'm sure it missed
Howard Whatley 3 years ago
that's right,and the two were different sounds the first of the two wasn't quite as loud the second sounded lower in tone but louder.iv'e filled many deer and hogs ,and the sound of a bullet hitting a skull or anything else does not make a sound similar to the actual discharge of a rifle,sometimes a popping sound is conman

Dallas Brubaker 3 years ago (edited)
Howard Whatley, You were in Dealey Plaza on 11-22-1963 at 12"30 pm cst?
Howard Whatley 3 years ago
right strictly by chance,i didn't even know he was coming until the told us at the courthouse.went there to get manage licence.never spoke much about it.went back to camp Pendleton sunday came back home in jan. 1964. my  wife and i made a vow not to tell anyone and i kept it until she passed away in 2005.there's a couple things i never heard anyone mention what i saw and heard some of the witness' have said and some the complete opposite.will say without any doubt there were more than three shots and the last came so close together no way did they come from a bolt action rifle.

Vern Pascal 2 years ago
That's interesting Howard-more witnesses heard shots from the knol/underpass than the TSBD.
Eduardo Flores 2 years ago
No he didn't..!
Rob Rob 2 months ago
 @Howard Whatley  Was there a fear factor in Dallas that witnesses that did not align with the 3 shot line shooter explanation were in danger?


Thanks for passing this info on, I've never seen it before.  This is very interesting, but sadly the line "my  wife and i made a vow not to tell anyone and i kept it until she passed away in 2005" makes me very suspicious.  This case has attracted a lot of attention from people who have claimed to have been in Dealey Plaza, but who didn't come forward at the time.  If Whatley can provide stronger proof of his presence there that day I would be prepared to accept what he says (e.g. dated letters or diaries perhaps).  However, until then he is just another guy on the internet.  For all I know he could be an adolescent troublemaker who is trolling us all for a bit of a laugh!

Lastly, even if Whatley was a witness in 1963, because he didn't put anything on the record at that time, any statements 40+ years later cannot be assumed to be what he thought at the time.  As I have shown in this thread, people like Pierce Allman helpfully demonstrate that human memory is unreliable when it comes to recalling events from decades before (especially with social pressure encouraging people to believe a particular scenario).
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on May 14, 2021, 11:57:26 PM
I spent a half of yesterday looking for the youtube footage that Howard Whatley commented on, but i couldn’t find it. But i did find some other comments of his. I think he is telling the truth, ie his truth. He might be a CTer, not a LNer, & is religious.
He is on facebook if anyone wants to contact him.
Buell Frazier is on facebook.
Tina Towner Pender is on facebook.  I spent an  hour or two looking for the youtube of her saying that the first shot was just after or just before she stopped filming. Shot-1 was as i said at frame T141 (in her ear)(at T137 from the Carcano's muzzle's point of view), & she stopped filming at T142. The youtube was of her standing on the corner talking, at one of the 50th anniversaries or some such thing, i might find it one day.

It looks like Anne Beck was there too, on Fr 22Nov 1963. [edit aug2021][i found anne on facebook -- she told me she wasnt in dealey plaza -- her comments were based on the acoustic evidence]
She heard in effect an auto burst of 5 shots. Which accords with my own theory that Hickey fired an auto burst of praps 6 shots.
But how could anyone "hear" that there were 5 auto shots, its difficult to hear the difference tween 3 & 6.
She must have been close to Hickey at the time, up near the TSBD it would sound like one long funny shot with echoes.

Howard Whatley 3 years ago (edited)
on this day 54 years ago i found myself in Dealey plaza saw and heard some things i can't forget.in the day,weeks,and years to come i lost any faith i had in L.E.,FBI,CIA.government and all media.worst of all seeing the media help cover the truth up.the home movie films have been altered,there was a lot more than three shots fired  four for sure 95% sure on five and 75% sue on six. nobody and i mean nobody looked at the TSBDB a cop ran up the hill with his gun in hand and everyone followed except the ones that hit the deck or stood still.if all these people were willing to tell lie upon lie, what won't they do?.they could've been this way all along,but i wasn't aware of it until then.GOD bless Jim Garrison and those like him including you Rick that were not afraid to speak out.wake up America


Big Foot Bill Unknown 3 years ago
Howard Whatley: Millions of people, especially children were adversely affected by JFK's murder. School teachers turned on TVs in classrooms all across the country. Walter Cronkite, was on every channel giving live updates as the horror unfolded. The entire country and even the world watched in utter disbelief.
It was so odd and surrealistic, to see adults openly crying, holding one another for support and praying. As days, weeks, and years passed the "rabbit hole" only got deeper.
Our innocence was stolen and a society of cynics were born. All and all, Biblical Prophecies were unfolding and it was scary.
One more confirmation of the soon return, of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
RICK THORNE 3 years ago
I BELIEVE AMERICA IS GOING TO FALL IN THE NEAR FUTURE BECAUSE OF HER WICKED SINS AGAINST HUMANITY NOT LONG FROM NOW...THAK YOU FOR THE KIND WORDS...
Charles Walter 3 years ago
Howard, can you elaborate on what you witnessed, I won't say you are making something up about what you heard or saw at the plaza but I find it hard to understand a live witness saying the hit happened  near the plaza when the footage proves he was hit over a mile away before the limo raced down that route to get to the hospital. Please share what you witnessed...
GREGORY RUSSO 3 years ago
Mr. Whatley, thank you for your story. I believe every word you wrote! JFK was killed like an animal in the street, and it was a military style ambush! The fact that no one spoke up is understandable, they were killing all the witnesses. Only GOD knows the truth, and most of the wicked murderers have already faced the LORD and are now in HELL FOREVER. JFK is with our LORD & savior Jesus Christ. So is RFK & JFK jr... Evil is everywhere.

Howard Whatley 3 years ago
thank you for the reply it's sad that nation has come to this where money seems to rule.GOD bless you and yours.


Clocktower Preacher 3 years ago
GREGORY RUSSO  JFK, JFK Jr & RFK only in Heaven if they died in a State of Grace .... not Otherwise Acts 16:31 Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved ... see also Acts 4:12 Ephesians 2:8&9 Clearly the consumation of all things as we know them is at hand God Bless
DyslexiCBeanie 3 years ago
Thank you for this reply. It's weird watching witnesses in these videos. They couldn't have all been innocent bystanders.

Howard Whatley 3 years ago
funny you said that,there was a couple of policemen that really seemed weird to me one had a long rain/overcoat on and it had warmed up.he never took one of his hands out of the through pocket.the other didn't seem interested in looking for anything just kept walking around.if you look in the news films you can probably find them.and what i thought to be a mailman had a large leather pouch slung on his shoulder.


AnneBeck58 2 years ago
I am certain I heard seven shots;  bam.. bam.   bam., bambam bambam.  Seven. There are two groups of shots split-second (not even a second) apart.  Seems the last five shots came in less than three seconds, all together.  The first two were maybe a second apart, even two, between.. then two seconds before the five more shots. Is that what you heard?
AnneBeck58 1 year ago
 @johnny cash   You have never listened to the dictabelt, I suppose?  Fool.
AnneBeck58 1 year ago
 @johnny cash   Popping off while ignoring the stated obvious would make one a fool.
Don't bother researching on your own.  Go along with what others tell you, as that is yet another mark of foolishness.
AnneBeck58 1 year ago
 @johnny cash    Really?  I don't think so.   I spent the time on it. You people did not.  You expect others to do the work for you so you can be nodding your heads like you know something.  phfft.  whatever
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on May 22, 2021, 03:06:55 AM
Patrolman Hargis was left of JFK & Co, Hargis says ……………turning left on Elm St & about 2 or 3 m down Elm St the first shot rang out……

Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on May 22, 2021, 03:31:46 PM
Tina Towner Pender is on facebook.  I spent an  hour or two looking for the youtube of her saying that the first shot was just after or just before she stopped filming. Shot-1 was as i said at frame T141 (in her ear)(at T137 from the Carcano's muzzle's point of view), & she stopped filming at T142. The youtube was of her standing on the corner talking, at one of the 50th anniversaries or some such thing, i might find it one day.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/d6/38/lj5q5CTx_o.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
Life, November 24, 1967
    “Now I was beginning to leave when I heard the sky fall in --
     the loudest crack of a rifle I had ever heard! At that time I had
     the least notion it was a gun. The truth of the matter was that
     I thought it was a firecracker."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
         -- Teen Magazine, June 1968
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
    "I've known Tina Towner since 1978 and my memory has been
     that she said the first shot came just a second or two after she
     stopped filming. However, in a March 30, 1996 oral history,
     Tina said it was four to six seconds.  So either I have mis-
     remembered, which is possible, or her memory has changed."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
         -- Email, Gary Mack to Andrew Mason, March 1, 2007
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
    "Tina has always said, and we've been good friends since 1978,
     the first shot came right after she stopped filming. She has
     always believed the first shot came within a second or two."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
         -- Email, Gary Mack to Dale K. Myers, November 21, 2011
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
    "I believe Daddy was about to head down the hill to get another
     photo, but there was not enough time before the first gunshot
     sounded only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
         -- "Tina Towner: My Story", 2012 book
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on May 22, 2021, 03:54:24 PM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/d6/38/lj5q5CTx_o.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
Life, November 24, 1967
    “Now I was beginning to leave when I heard the sky fall in --
     the loudest crack of a rifle I had ever heard! At that time I had
     the least notion it was a gun. The truth of the matter was that
     I thought it was a firecracker."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
         -- Teen Magazine, June 1968
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
    "I've known Tina Towner since 1978 and my memory has been
     that she said the first shot came just a second or two after she
     stopped filming. However, in a March 30, 1996 oral history,
     Tina said it was four to six seconds.  So either I have mis-
     remembered, which is possible, or her memory has changed."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
         -- Email, Gary Mack to Andrew Mason, March 1, 2007
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
    "Tina has always said, and we've been good friends since 1978,
     the first shot came right after she stopped filming. She has
     always believed the first shot came within a second or two."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
         -- Email, Gary Mack to Dale K. Myers, November 21, 2011
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
    "I believe Daddy was about to head down the hill to get another
     photo, but there was not enough time before the first gunshot
     sounded only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
         -- "Tina Towner: My Story", 2012 book
Yes it is splitting hairs, but i definitely remember a youtube of Tina saying that she woznt sure whether she stopped filming just before the first shot or just after.  I think it woz in the context of talking to max Holland, in which case Tina might have said that just to make Max happy, i can understand that.
But my forensic analysis says that she heard shot1 at T141 & Tina stopped filming at T142.
Oswald shot at T137.
The slug hit at T138.
The sound hit at T139.
The ear part of Tina's brain told the main part of Tina's brain at T141.
Tina stopped filming at T142.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 07, 2021, 12:04:22 AM
James Reston jnr has written a book saying that Oswald was aiming for Connally, not JFK.
The lead fragments in the back of JFK's head do not support Reston's theory.
The hole in the floor of the limo does not support Reston's theory.

Oswald's shot-1 ricocheted off the western side of the signal arm supporting the overhead signals, & the remnant slug made a hole in the floor of the limo tween Connally's seat & Mrs Connally's seat (hole seen in photo)(Dec1963), & some lead fragments hit JFK in the back of the head (seen in Xrays).
If Oswald was aiming for JFK's body then the above geometry makes sense.

If Oswald was aiming for Connally's body, & (1) if the ricochet was off the eastern side of the signal arm, then the ricochet would have angled back to the east & .....
(1a) the fragments of lead would have hit JFK on the top of the head (but the Xrays show fragments in the back of the head, not the top).
(1b) In addition the hole in the floor would have been tween JFK & Connally (but the hole in the floor was tween Connally & Mrs Connally).

If Oswald was aiming for Connally's body, & (2) if the ricochet was off the western side of the signal arm, then the ricochet would have angled to the west & .....
(2a) the fragments of lead might have hit Kellerman, in the passenger seat.
(2b) In addition the hole in the floor would have been tween Connally & Kellerman.

Hence, Oswald was aiming for JFK.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2021, 06:36:17 PM
That's just silly.  The location of fragments tells you nothing about where somebody was aiming or who it was.  And there is ZERO evidence of this alleged ricochet off the traffic light.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 15, 2021, 09:36:20 AM
That's just silly.  The location of fragments tells you nothing about where somebody was aiming or who it was.  And there is ZERO evidence of this alleged ricochet off the traffic light.
There is a youtube of tests done on (i think Oswald kind of) bullets ricocheting off (signal arm kind of) steel tube.
The fragments hit a plywood target.
There were 3 kinds of groups of holes (ie groups of fragments).
The smallest ricochet fragments (small bits of lead) ricocheted at the shallowest angle (eg the right-back of JFK's head).
The full copper jacket always broke into 2 pieces (eg CE567 CE569)(koz the jacket was made in 2 pieces, welded together), both ricocheting at a larger angle.
The remnant lead slug ricocheted at the largest angle (this made the hole in the limo floor, found Dec 1963)(see the pix in reply#14).

If anyone knows the youtube showing the ricochet tests off steel tube then i would appreciate it if u could advise of the link.

See also #23 & #27 regarding Whatley (hearing a shot that missed)(near the signals) & Moore hearing a shot near the signals.
See also #14.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 15, 2021, 10:12:28 AM
FORENSIC SCIENCE AND PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S HEAD WOUNDS
Michael T. Griffith 2002 @All Rights Reserved Second Edition
https://miketgriffith.com/files/forensic.htm

Another Bullet Fragment in the Back of the Head
When the HSCA had outside experts examine the autopsy skull x-rays, the experts discovered a bullet fragment that had not been noted before. Dr. G. M. McDonnel discovered the fragment. He noted it was embedded in the galea, which is a layer located between the scalp and the skull, and that it was slightly to the left of the 6.5 mm object. This fragment is further evidence that Kennedy's head was struck by ricochet material from a bullet that struck the pavement. As absurd as the shearing explanation is for the 6.5 mm object, it's even more absurd for this second fragment, since this fragment is located to the left of the 6.5 mm object and is embedded in a different layer. Donahue argued this fragment must have come from the bullet that several witnesses saw strike the pavement. He concluded there was no other credible explanation for the fragment's presence and location:
. . . details surfaced in the committee's own documents that indicated Kennedy very likely was hit by not one, but rather a barrage of ricochet fragments.
The medical evidence appendix published in early 1979 contained reports from two radiologists who'd independently examined the President's skull X rays. One of these physicians, Dr. G. M. McDonnel of Los Angeles, wrote that in addition to the Fisher fragment [the 6.5 mm object], he'd identified a second bullet piece on the exterior of Kennedy's skull. McDonnel's fragment was smaller than Fisher's and located slightly to its left. Unlike the Fisher fragment, this new shard was not attached to the bone but was embedded in the galea, the tough, rubbery membrane between the scalp and the skull.
The presence of this second bullet piece obviously strengthened Donahue's conclusions about the first-shot ricochet. So too did information provided by the second outside expert, Dr. David O. Davis, chairman of the radiology department at George Washington University Hospital. Davis wrote that his examination of the X rays revealed a number of skull fragments that appeared to be dispersed across the right side of Kennedy's head in such a way as to suggest they were located not inside the skull, but outside it, embedded in the scalp.
Davis said he was at a loss to explain where these fragments might have come from and his startling suggestion that the right side of Kennedy's scalp may have been peppered with lead did not make it into the medical panel's final report. As for the fragment discovered by McDonnel, the panel asserted this fragment, like Fisher's, had probably sheared off the fatal bullet on impact.
McDonnel, however, apparently was not totally in accord with this explanation. Instead, he proposed the two fragments may have somehow worked their way back out through the entrance wound and attached themselves to the outside of the skull and galea during the transport and handling of the President's body.
To Donahue, this explanation was even more absurd than Baden's shear interpretation, since it would have been virtually impossible for the pieces to migrate from the point of the bullet's disintegration through the shredded, semisolid brain mass all the way back to the entrance wound, then pass through the small hole to affix themselves finally outside the skull. . . .
Donahue . . . believed that the location of the fragments on both the rear and now the side of Kennedy's head precluded any possibility except a ricochet. (Menninger, Mortal Error, pp. 160-161)
There is no way to explain the presence of this additional fragment in the back of the head in the context of the Warren Commission's lone-gunman scenario. Donahue was almost certainly correct: The fragment must have come from the bullet that several witnesses saw strike the pavement near the limousine when the limousine was passing beneath the oak tree or from another additional bullet that was fired during the assassination. It most certainly did not come from an FMJ bullet that struck Kennedy in the back of the head.

Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 15, 2021, 02:48:40 PM
Here is a still from i think Dale Myer's footage.
Dale's footage is slightly wrong. The guy rods are shown too thin, they were thicker.
Also the guy rods coupling collar is shown too far left, it was much closer to JFK.
Oswald's shot-1 actually ricocheted off a guy rod, not the main support arm.
But i have ignored that & i have shown a star showing a ricochet on/off the arm.
The main thing is that some small lead fragments hit JFK in the right rear of his head (Xrays), as per the second star.
And then the remnant lead slug put a hole in the floor (third star).
And the 2 bits of copper jacket ricocheted somewhere in between the second and third stars.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pWPPybZ7/osw-ald-shot-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on August 27, 2021, 01:04:01 AM
You mentioned a witness named "Whatley", but I'm not familiar with this person.  Could you link the source for who this witness was and what they said?

In his statement from January 1964, TE Moore said that JFK had reached the Thornton freeway sign when the first shot was fired.  The general timing of this would have been around Z180-Z200 and can be referenced by the Betzner photo which shows the limo position at Z186 relative to the Thornton freeway sign:

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/betzner_3_crop.jpg)

Moore is one of many witnesses connecting the first shot with the Z180-Z200 timeframe, which directly challenges all theories which have a shot fired before Z170 and confirms that the Zapruder film jiggle Z190-Z210 is a result of Zapruder being startled by the first shot.

One very important point about John Connally's statement is that he said he heard a shot fired 2 second before he was hit, but he never heard the shot that hit him.  In other words the only shots he heard were the shots fired around Z185, and Z310.  This may mean that the 2 second delay was a body shock of some kind and there wasn't a shot fired at Z218 (as the HSCA suggested), or it means there were shots at Z185 and Z218 but he failed to hear the Z218 shot as he was distracted by the pain of the injury.

Sadly this dilemma cannot be resolved by Connally's statement alone, and the other witnesses are split somewhat: most say there was only one shot before JFK raised his arms, but enough mentioned two shots in quick succession so it should be seriously considered as a possibility.
Your points are well taken.  The evidence does not support an first shot before Betzner's z186 photo.

However, while many witnesses recalled a shot pattern with two shots in rapid succession, the vast majority (over 40) specifically recalled the last two shots in rapid succession.  See my compilation of these witnesses (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/shot_pattern_excerpt.PDF).

What this evidence tells us is that there was only one shot before the midpoint between shots 1 and 3 with the first shot not being before z186 and the last shot at z312-3
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 27, 2021, 05:32:34 AM
I found the DeRonja article re the Oswald Shot-1 ricochet off the signal arm.
But it doesn't have the info about the copper jacket breaking into 2 pieces.
I think that there is a Haag article or Haag youtube footage that shows the 2 pieces.
If anyone knows of this, or finds it, please let me know. Thanx.

https://www.acsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DeRonja-Holland-2.pdf
A Technical Investigation Pertaining to the First Shot Fired in the JFK Assassination
Article Frank S. DeRonja1 , MS Engr & Max Holland2 1 Forensic Metallurgy Associates, Springfield, VA, USA

21. Haag LC. The Missing Bullet in the JFK Assassination. AFTE J. 2015;47(2):75.
23. Haag MG, Haag LC. Shooting Incident Reconstruction. San Diego (CA): Academic Press; 2011, 238.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 27, 2021, 07:36:54 AM
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1rnPYtv1XKkICgLqDcp2eE60UNbcVM-WQ)  (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=10VgRfgGIx84r4LhHB7GYMIlpmZbBdaJ0)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Moore heard three shots but only saw the President during the first shot;
Prior to reaching the Thornton sign, where does Kennedy "slump"?

Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 27, 2021, 08:24:03 AM
Moore saw that shot-1 was when JFK was just past the signals, not when near the Thornton sign (the FBI wrongly mentioned the Thornton sign).
Hence in fact Moore confirms that Oswald's shot-1 was at say Z113 (or even earlier as per Holland).
Anyhow, JFK duznt slump here, but he raises his right hand/arm, koz small lead fragments ricochet into the right-back of his head (seen in xrays).

Hence, if the FBI were wrong re the Thornton sign, then we might add that it was the FBI that wrongly mentioned that Moore couldnt see JFK for the next 2 shots.
Or, Moore was wrong (if the FBI report aint wrong).

I doubt that Moore could see throo the 10 agents -- 5 sitting low, 1 sitting hi (Hickey), and 4 standing -- in Queen Mary!
Plus could he see throo the raised sun shades on the windshield.
Plus there is a serious crest, where Elm St starts to fall (5.8%), and hence Moore (standing say 60 ft east of the crest) has an effective eye height of only say 3 ft 0 in instead of 5 ft 6 in.
Hence Moore probly couldnt see JFK at Oswald's shot-2, at Z218, nor when JFK very slightly slumps after Z218.

Just before Z313 the gawkers standing on the south west corner of Elm & Houston run out onto Elm St (& Tina Towner runs out too), and hence they block Moore's view of JFK at the last shot(s) at Z313 & just before Z313, ie Hickey's shots-1234 & probly a shot-5, & possibly a shot-6.
And re JFK slumping, this would have been well after Z313, eg Z333.

No, Moore never saw JFK slump.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 27, 2021, 09:55:33 AM
The 3 stars show approx JFK at Z113 (shot-1) & Z218 (shot-2) & Z313 (Hickey shot-4 or 5 or 6).
There is a 5.8% grade in Elm St, with crest near Houston St.


(https://i.postimg.cc/SxRmmRMZ/moore-s-view-3-stars.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 27, 2021, 10:18:09 AM
Here is view from eye-level (say 5 ft 6 in) standing on the footpath on the north-east corner of Elm & Houston.
Note that the eye/camera here is in effect below the level of the road when JFK is at Z218 and Z313, ie a level of minus say 1 ft 0 in.
Which suggests that Moore's eye-level when standing near the south-east corner was say 3 ft 0 in.
I dont know how/why Google took this at 5 ft 6 in, they usually have their car/camera at about 7 ft 0 in (just guessing).
I think Ethan Ferguson took this 360 deg panorama.

The young lady is crossing exactly where Oswald crossed, after he had gone a little way up Houston, before he did a U-turn & crossed Houston (on a slight angle), & then crossed Elm, except that he was holding a bottle of Coca Cola.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7wyb2N4V/Moore-view.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 27, 2021, 03:52:27 PM
Moore saw that shot-1 was when JFK was just past the signals, not when near the Thornton sign (the FBI wrongly mentioned the Thornton sign).

You're too lazy to type it out, but you're apparently referring to Moore's comment decades-on in Larry Snead's 1998 book "No More Silence":
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
    "There was a highway marker sign right in front of the Book Depository,
     and as the president got around to that, the first shot was fired ..."

Not a stretch to characterize the Thornton as being in front of the Depository.

Quote
Hence in fact Moore confirms that Oswald's shot-1 was at say Z113 (or even earlier as per Holland).
Anyhow, JFK duznt slump here, but he raises his right hand/arm, koz small lead fragments ricochet into the right-back of his head (seen in xrays).

In the Z130s, Kennedy raises his right hand to brush his hair. The head nod in the Z170s was in conjunction with Kennedy waving at the crowd, but Moore couldn't see the hand, only the head nod. JFK "slumped".

Quote
Hence, if the FBI were wrong re the Thornton sign, then we might add that it was the FBI that wrongly mentioned that Moore couldnt see JFK for the next 2 shots.
Or, Moore was wrong (if the FBI report aint wrong).

"Wrong" as in relative to your Theory.

Quote
I doubt that Moore could see throo the 10 agents -- 5 sitting low, 1 sitting hi (Hickey), and 4 standing -- in Queen Mary!
Plus could he see throo the raised sun shades on the windshield.
Plus there is a serious crest, where Elm St starts to fall (5.8%), and hence Moore (standing say 60 ft east of the crest) has an effective eye height of only say 3 ft 0 in instead of 5 ft 6 in.
Hence Moore probly couldnt see JFK at Oswald's shot-2, at Z218, nor when JFK very slightly slumps after Z218.

After the first shot (in the Z150s) and head nod (Z170s), Moore lost sight of Kennedy until he caught sight of Hill on the trunk.

Quote
Just before Z313 the gawkers standing on the south west corner of Elm & Houston run out onto Elm St (& Tina Towner runs out too), and hence they block Moore's view of JFK at the last shot(s) at Z313 & just before Z313, ie Hickey's shots-1234 & probly a shot-5, & possibly a shot-6.
And re JFK slumping, this would have been well after Z313, eg Z333.

No, Moore never saw JFK slump.

He (or the FBI) were just making it up.  :D  Only the "highway marker sign" comment warrants a cherry-pick.  ::)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on August 27, 2021, 05:45:12 PM
Moore saw that shot-1 was when JFK was just past the signals, not when near the Thornton sign (the FBI wrongly mentioned the Thornton sign).
Hence in fact Moore confirms that Oswald's shot-1 was at say Z113 (or even earlier as per Holland).
But it is not just Moore who put the first shot when JFK was opposite the Thornton Freeway sign, which was about z200. Linda Willis put the first shot when JFK was on her sight line to the Stemmons sign, which puts it between z195 and z205. The occupants of the VP car said the car had just finished the turn onto Elm.  It is still turning when last seen at z180. Betzner said his z186 photo was before the first shot - he was turning the film to take another when it sounded. Occupants of the VP follow up car said they were just finishing the turn and about parallel to the TSBD when the first shot sounded.  It is still turning and pointing toward the TSBD when last seen at z191.  Other witnesses along Elm described where JFK was in relation to where they were standing when the first shot sounded.  They all converge around z200. Not a single witness said JFK continued to smile and wave after the first shot.  Over 20 said he reacted immediately.

But, perhaps more to the point, there are too many witnesses who said that the last two shots were close together - in rapid succession - e.g Sheriff Roger Craig: "Not more than 2 seconds. It was—they were real rapid." 6H263.  Unless you think that 5 seconds is "real rapid" or "rapid succession" or "just about as fast as you could expect a man to operate a bolt action rifle" (Hudson, 26Nov63 WCD CD5 HSCA Ex. RG233), that does not fit a first shot miss.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 27, 2021, 06:09:11 PM
But it is not just Moore who put the first shot when JFK was opposite the Thornton Freeway sign, which was about z200.

Moore said the car was on this side of the Thornton sign, meaning it hadn't reached it. You really think Moore could calculate the President was exactly perpendicular to the Thornton sign when Moore was almost directly behind the President?

Quote
Linda Willis put the first shot when JFK was on her sight line to the Stemmons sign, which puts it between z195 and z205.

(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1q5awR3H0RJCh6pnpBbRSpLrBZzbsuBLm)

The Willis girl apparently got her signs mixed up. Perhaps influenced by her father's slide that featured the Stemmons sign. Her father, BTW, said the first shot occurred between his slide at Z133 and Z202. It made, he said, Mrs. Kennedy look from his side of the street to the opposite side.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_willis04.jpg) 
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_willis05crop.jpg)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
(Crop)

    "When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking
     straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to
     my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to
     just snap in that direction"
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
          — Warren Commission testimony
      "and then in front of the Depository Building on Elm Street I cocked
     my camera for another picture and this loud shot went off and the first
     reaction was that could it be a crank or a firecracker but it was so loud
     and of such a sound it had to be rifle so I became alarmed."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
          — Clay Shaw Trial testimony
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Yes Willis claimed the shot caused him to snap the shutter, but he can't have it that way AND claim that Mrs. Kennedy reacted during the interval.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on August 27, 2021, 10:54:28 PM
Moore said the car was on this side of the Thornton sign, meaning it hadn't reached it. You really think Moore could calculate the President was exactly perpendicular to the Thornton sign when Moore was almost directly behind the President?
According to his statement, he said "By the time President Kennedy had reached the Thornton Freeway sign a shot was fired and Mr. MOORE observed the President slumping forward in the Presidential car."  I wasn't there.  I don't see why he would not be able to see that.

BUT we don't have to rely on just him.  There are at least 20 other witnesses who said that JFK moved left or slumped or assumed a blank look or clutched at his neck etc. (different vantage points) immediately after the first shot. He did that just after z200.  Not a single witness said he smiled and waved for 2-3 seconds as you insist he did.  Also, the shot pattern with the last two shots close together in rapid succession means that JFK was hit by the first shot.  I know you think all that evidence is mistaken but I don't think that many witnesses can possibly be independently mistaken in exactly the same way (let alone that they were).

Quote
The Willis girl apparently got her signs mixed up. Perhaps influenced by her father's slide that featured the Stemmons sign. Her father, BTW, said the first shot occurred between his slide at Z133 and Z202. It made, he said, Mrs. Kennedy look from his side of the street to the opposite side.

Right. Another witness whose evidence must be wrong in order to cling to the SBT.

Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 27, 2021, 11:34:06 PM
According to his statement, he said "By the time President Kennedy had reached the Thornton Freeway sign a shot was fired and Mr. MOORE observed the President slumping forward in the Presidential car."  I wasn't there.  I don't see why he would not be able to see that.

BUT we don't have to rely on just him.  There are at least 20 other witnesses who said that JFK moved left or slumped or assumed a blank look or clutched at his neck etc. (different vantage points) immediately after the first shot. He did that just after z200.  Not a single witness said he smiled and waved for 2-3 seconds as you insist he did. 

It's just that most of your "didn't see the President smile" witnesses were behind the President. So--from a defense attorney standpoint--you're "correct". Mary Woodward was off to the side and said the President didn't slump until the second shot.

Quote
Also, the shot pattern with the last two shots close together in rapid succession means that JFK was hit by the first shot.

    "While it is true that a majority of ear-witnesses reported that the second and
     third shots were closer than the first and second, only 39% of respondents
     mentioned the spacing of the shots at all. Sixty-one percent didn’t mention
     (or were never asked about) the spacing of the shots. Of those who did,
     5% thought the first two were closer together, 25% thought the last two were
     closer together, and 9% though the shots were evenly spaced.
        One-quarter is hardly a meaningful percentage given the great pool of total
     ear-witnesses"
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
          — Dale K Myers (Dec20-2007)
Quote
I know you think all that evidence is mistaken

Hold on, cowboy. It's your interpretation of the evidence that I find wrong.

Quote
but I don't think that many witnesses can possibly be independently mistaken in exactly the same way (let alone that they were).

I've explained that to you countless times. If the witnesses arrived in Dealey Plaza anticipating they were about to hear three loud reports and to register in their minds the time span between each one, then that "shot pattern" consensus might have some footing. And aren't you saying the even-spacing and longer-pause-between-one-and-two witnesses are mistaken?

Why would anyone begin to take stock of the length of time between shots one and two, if most (it seems) thought the first shot was just a "backfire" or "firecracker"? No reason whatsoever to anticipate a second loud report. But when they heard the second loud report, naturally their cognizant functions heightened. They're weren't dumbstruck or anything; just when questioned later on, arrived at a perfectly understandable false memory. There's also the question of whether the siren was activated between shots two and three, which--with all the other stuff unfolding--could make the one-to-two shot span seem pretty ordinary and remote.

Quote
Right. Another witness whose evidence must be wrong in order to cling to the SBT.

(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1q5awR3H0RJCh6pnpBbRSpLrBZzbsuBLm)

No. What I showed was empirical evidence that Linda Willis could not possible see the President when he was between her and the Stemmons sign. The empirical evidence shows she could see without obstruction the President when he was between her and the Thornton sign. I'm sorry this undermines your Pet Theory.

BTW, you're so anti-SBT, you might as well come out of the closet and be a conspiracy nut.  :D
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 28, 2021, 02:47:46 AM
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1q5awR3H0RJCh6pnpBbRSpLrBZzbsuBLm)
Hickey in rear of Queen Mary begins to lean & look near the rear tyre at Z144 -- which supports shot-1 being at Z113.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 28, 2021, 03:30:21 AM
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/scearce.htm
HIDDEN IN PLAIN VIEW: The Zapruder Film and the Shot that Missed
By Kenneth R. Scearce
November 27th, 2007
Returning now to the actions in the early Zapruder frames, we can draw the following inferences:

•   The leftward head turns of JFK, Mrs. Kennedy, Hickey and Connally visible in the earliest Zapruder frames were almost exactly simultaneous. JFK begins to turn his head left at Z140. Mrs. Kennedy begins to turn her head left at Z142. Hickey begins to look left and downwards, starting at Z143/144. At Z149, Connally begins to turn his head left. JFK, Mrs. Kennedy, Hickey and Connally begin their leftward head movements within ½ second of each other. This simultaneity suggests that the leftward head turns of these four people were probably due to the same cause.

•   The Zapruder film shows that JFK, Connally and Mrs. Kennedy first turned their heads left before turning their heads right. When viewed dynamically, it is clear that the leftward and then rightward head turns of JFK, Connally and Mrs. Kennedy are related to each other. Their rightward head turns are a continuation of their leftward head turns a moment before. Looking only at their later rightwards head turns while ignoring their earlier, related leftward head turns—as the Myers/consensus timing does—results in misinterpretation of the evidence.

•   The 1st shot was fired from the right rear. The movements discussed herein were towards the left first, then towards the right. The sound dynamics in the assassination environment may explain this, or the explanation may be simply that the people in question were confused. If the 1st shot ricocheted off the metal traffic light arm and hit the pavement, it could have produced a smacking sound to the left of the limousine. Or, the explanation could be a multiplicity of these and other factors.

•   Viewed individually, each of these leftward head turns might by explainable for reasons other than gunshot reactions—for instance, as reactions to the crowd. But when considered collectively, the odds greatly diminish that these abrupt actions—occurring well before the consensus Z155–Z157 timing—are explainable innocuously. Hickey looks left and downwards at the pavement or at the tires the vehicles, not at the crowd. Connally’s left/right head swing is much too fast too have been a reaction to the crowd—it is obviously a reaction to severe stress.

•   The dramatic nature of the reactions (especially Connally’s) necessitates a threatening stimulus. The simultaneity of the reactions suggests a common cause. The timing of the beginning of these reactions in frames Z140–Z149 indicates, if we allow for naturalistic reaction time of 1–2 seconds, that the threatening stimulus occurred before Z133.

We have seen that Connally’s sudden left-then-right head turns refute the notion that the 1st first shot was fired at around Z155–Z157. It must have been fired earlier. The farther back in time and space the 1st shot was fired, the less chance there was that the tree could explain the fact that the shot missed. At some point farther back from the Z155–Z157 consensus timing, the tree simply cannot be the explanation. We can see this by extrapolating JFK’s position from the following Secret Service re-enactment photograph:

At this moment (Z140), which would allow for a ½ second head-turning reaction by Connally (much faster than natural, but about as generous as possible to Myers), the tree is not yet a plausible cause of a ricochet. The more naturalistic 1–2 second reaction time likewise rules out the tree as a cause.

Prior to the tree, only one other possible cause for a ricochet existed: the traffic light’s extension arm.

A 1st shot occurring just before Z133 not only fits with the film’s images and the physical evidence at the crime scene, it also corresponds well with the Holland/Rush metal traffic light arm ricochet theory—a theory that explains the missed shot, and some of the other thorniest issues about the assassination in general such as whether Oswald could have accomplished the feat alone, better than any other theory heretofore conceived.

At its core, the Myers/consensus timing stands or falls on the accuracy of Connally’s recollection of the direction in which he first turned his head after hearing the 1st shot. The film is the best evidence of this, not Connally.

#59 Brian Roselle
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2792.50.html

https://sites.google.com/site/earlyzapruderfilmreactions/reactions-seen-early-in-zapruder-film

https://www.acsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-Estimating-Occult-Timing-of-Surprise-Gunshot-Sounds-in-Silent-Film-via-Observed-Start-of-Human-Voluntary-Reactions-of-Concern-Roselle.pdf

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2792.40.html
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 28, 2021, 04:21:40 AM
The leftward head turns of JFK, Mrs. Kennedy, Hickey and Connally visible in the earliest Zapruder frames were almost exactly simultaneous. JFK begins to turn his head left at Z140. Mrs. Kennedy begins to turn her head left at Z142. Hickey begins to look left and downwards, starting at Z143/144. At Z149, Connally begins to turn his head left. JFK, Mrs. Kennedy, Hickey and Connally begin their leftward head movements within ½ second of each other. This simultaneity suggests that the leftward head turns of these four people were probably due to the same cause.

The Governor said he turn to his right when he heard the first shot, not to his left. Mrs. Kennedy made her head turn more to the left because she was engaged with the taking of the photo by Robert Croft.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_croft~0.jpg)

Hickey said he looked right, not to his left, in reaction to the first shot.

    "After a very short distance I heard a loud report which seemed like a firecracker.
     It appeared to come from my right and rear and seemed to me to be at ground
     level. I stood up and looked to my right and rear in an attempt to identify it."

Hickey doesn't say he looked to the pavement on his left.

Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 28, 2021, 05:07:50 AM
The Governor said he turn to his right when he heard the first shot, not to his left. Mrs. Kennedy made her head turn more to the left because she was engaged with the taking of the photo by Robert Croft.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_croft~0.jpg)
Hickey said he looked right, not to his left, in reaction to the first shot.

    "After a very short distance I heard a loud report which seemed like a firecracker.
     It appeared to come from my right and rear and seemed to me to be at ground
     level. I stood up and looked to my right and rear in an attempt to identify it."

Hickey doesn't say he looked to the pavement on his left.
Roselle & Scearce point out that Zapruder shows that Connally turned his head left (at Z150) & then turned his head right.

By the way, notice Kellerman (in passenger seat) looking facing turning pivoting hard right (koz he had heard JFK say my  god i have been hit)(by small lead fragments at Z113)(seen in xrays).

Yes Hickey turns right & looks back to the TSBD at say Z255 (Altgens-5 or something).
Yes Hickey didnt admit to checking the left tyre(s) at Z143/144. But Zapruder shows that he did turn & lean & look.
Anyhow R&S reckon that shot-1 was 0.5 sec before Z133, Holland says 1.5 sec, i said it was at Z113 which would make it 20 frames before, ie 1.1 sec. Anyhow, Holland & i i think agree exactly on where shot-1 was, it was where the signal arm was on the line from the Carcano to JFK's back.

I might as well add, that Connally at shot-2 at Z218 (the magic bullet) was not turned to his right (as is always wrongly depicted), he was halfway throo turning to his left when he was hit (he said).

I might as well add, Hickey was sitting up on 2 leather cases, the big one was for praps the AR15, the small one praps for ammo.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 28, 2021, 05:26:19 AM
In her book Tina Towner, page 7, she states: “ ...but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming.”

I believe I have seen a video in which she said that the first shot sounded just about the time that she stopped filming. I don’t remember which video. But I will point it out if I come across it again.

Regardless, she didn’t time it with a stopwatch.
Yes i saw that footage too. Tina said that she stopped filming just before or just after the first shot. She was standing at that corner when talking. It wasnt long ago, some anniversary. At other times she has said that she stopped filming a couple of seconds before the shot, & even 4 seconds before. Anyhow i had a long look for that footage, but couldnt find it.

If my estimate of Z113 is correct for shot-1 then her T142 is at say Z118. Hence she stopped filming 15 Zapruder frames before Z133.
If Hollands Z106 is correct for shot-1 then Tina stopped filming at Z111, which is 22 frames before Z133.

The first shot was at T137, the slug hit the signal arm at T138, the sound hit Tina's ear at T139, the ear told Tina's brain at T141, & Tina stopped filming at T142.
So, she stopped filming at nearnuff the same time as the (sound of the) shot.

There should have been a camera jiggle at T139, due to the noise.
But Tina was holding tightly i guess.
And any jiggle would depend on aim/tilt of camera & on direction of shockwave i suppose.

There would have been a camera jiggle at say T143, due to a non-voluntary startle reaction.

And a camera jump at say T153 due to a voluntary fright reaction.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 28, 2021, 06:32:15 AM
I might as well add, Hickey was sitting up on 2 leather cases, the big one was for praps the AR15, the small one praps for ammo.

(https://i.ibb.co/yQdMNXy/hickey-in-betzner-possible-position.jpg)

For what it's worth, Hickey might have been propped against the cases, with his feet on the floor, up against the jump-seat.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Mark Tyler on August 28, 2021, 01:39:02 PM
Your points are well taken.  The evidence does not support an first shot before Betzner's z186 photo.

However, while many witnesses recalled a shot pattern with two shots in rapid succession, the vast majority (over 40) specifically recalled the last two shots in rapid succession.  See my compilation of these witnesses (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/shot_pattern_excerpt.PDF).

What this evidence tells us is that there was only one shot before the midpoint between shots 1 and 3 with the first shot not being before z186 and the last shot at z312-3

Hi Andrew.  I agree with you, there were dozens of witnesses who referred to the final two shots being closer than the first two.  There is an important issue about whether the head shot was the last shot, and what exactly the gap was between the final two shots.  For example, some witnesses you mentioned in your analysis referred to a ratio of 2 to 1 between the gap lengths, so this could be 3 seconds and 1.5 seconds, or 6 seconds and 3 seconds (as suggested by Ralph Yarborough and Arnold Rowland respectively).  In the Zapruder film we see the gap between JFK being hit by the two shots is about 5-7 seconds depending on exactly when he was hit during Z190-Z220, which suggests that if Arnold Rowland was close to the truth then the final shot was fired around Z360-Z400 which went wild as the Presidential limo was accelerating out of danger at that point (maybe this was the bullet which hit Tague via the kerb on Main Street?).

By contrast we have other witnesses who say that the two shots fired were both fired so rapidly they were almost simultaneously fired at the time of the head shot (as suggested by George Hickey and Sam Holland).  It's hard to know the exact time frame, but it seems too rapid for a single bolt action gun to have been used (a pair of shots fired in less than 2-3 seconds probably means a second gunman was involved).

Clearly dozens of witnesses did not hear a shot after the head shot, but by contrast many definitely did hear a shot after the head shot (such as Charles Brehm and Emmett Hudson who were very close to the limo and saw the explosion we see at Z313).  In addition, some witnesses like Mary Moorman and Jean Hill heard two shots after the head shot, so I am fairly certain there was at least one shot well after what we see at Z313 in the Zapruder film.  I think many witnesses failed to register this final shot (or two) because they were running away in terror and were simply unaware of events due to the unfolding chaos (including a very loud siren being emitted from the Secret Service follow up car).

In summary, I find it hard to be 100% certain about whether there were 3 or more shots fired in total due to the very split witnesses.  However, I am 100% certain that there were only 3 bursts of gunfire as nobody reported a fourth burst.  Even AJ Millican who reported 8 shots grouped them into a pattern of 3-2-3.  Naturally lone nut believers say he was confused by echoes, and conspiracy believers say each burst had a pair of shots in it.  Without concrete physical evidence either way it feels rather moot, so I find it difficult to commit either way on the total number of shots fired.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 28, 2021, 03:11:41 PM
There is no evidence of a second gunman @Dealey.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 29, 2021, 02:37:21 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/yQdMNXy/hickey-in-betzner-possible-position.jpg)

For what it's worth, Hickey might have been propped against the cases, with his feet on the floor, up against the jump-seat.
Here is a pix of the cases.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3f7joE1a7LXyqZkB-DBFqh3BN07FsxEXJqNnhlR4TO6Ln38CtyRfWFHfOdSb_wQE7wxnxp8nEZ48F6clmWnOcmkupVXGj2XMJNfPZ4ejnyOfBSKEc7c2ckroPLuyxsYVFUNi17eXY3RYpYskgrA3LMj=w620-h494-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 29, 2021, 02:46:09 AM
There is no evidence of a second gunman @Dealey.
We can start with 5 bits of evidence that there was a second gunman.
[1] What about the dent in the chrome trim – made by the second-last shot of Hickey's accidental auto burst – the last shot hitting JFK in the head.
[2] The dent shows that it was made by the direct hit of a soft-nosed slug (eg a hollow point).
[3] The hole in JFK's head shows that it was made by a soft nosed slug (eg a hollow point).
[4] The remnant slug exited JFKs head at an angle & cracked the windshield.
[5] A slug hit Main St near Tague, a fragment of pavement hit Tague in lower left cheek.
None of these 5 can be credibly explained as belonging to Oswald's shot-1 or shot-2.
Tague said that [5] wasnt at shot-1 nor shot-2.
And, Oswald fired only 2 shots.
Re [4], if Oswald fired a shot-3, it would had to have veered almost 20 deg in JFKs small head (to crack the windshield), impossible.
Re [5], if Oswald fired a shot-3, it is unlikely that a fragment of lead would (after exiting JFK's head) clear the windshield & hit Tague.
Re [4], the crack could not have been made when CE567 & CE569 or remnant slug ricocheted off the signal arm, koz the lean of the glass in the windshield angled up to approx the ricochet point on the signal arm, ie the glass was almost parallel to the needed traject  -- no, the crack was made by the remnant head-shot slug from the AR15 going parallel to the road, or nearly.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fzLkw33BtPHlvej93LCdRDC84baVEaKKNdZChIAVG_hoOnqGGzP7N7WodKX9dULZKanCTZwPRWceZtFU1CVWZqFdrgqqrf1dlaoh9Ur8saixpawz3AKnAhisSzvkDKtrbjLpnAOHKTOi437HKL7Ahd=w700-h591-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on August 29, 2021, 04:35:44 AM
Hi Andrew.  I agree with you, there were dozens of witnesses who referred to the final two shots being closer than the first two.  There is an important issue about whether the head shot was the last shot, and what exactly the gap was between the final two shots.  For example, some witnesses you mentioned in your analysis referred to a ratio of 2 to 1 between the gap lengths, so this could be 3 seconds and 1.5 seconds, or 6 seconds and 3 seconds (as suggested by Ralph Yarborough and Arnold Rowland respectively).  In the Zapruder film we see the gap between JFK being hit by the two shots is about 5-7 seconds depending on exactly when he was hit during Z190-Z220, which suggests that if Arnold Rowland was close to the truth then the final shot was fired around Z360-Z400 which went wild as the Presidential limo was accelerating out of danger at that point (maybe this was the bullet which hit Tague via the kerb on Main Street?).

By contrast we have other witnesses who say that the two shots fired were both fired so rapidly they were almost simultaneously fired at the time of the head shot (as suggested by George Hickey and Sam Holland).  It's hard to know the exact time frame, but it seems too rapid for a single bolt action gun to have been used (a pair of shots fired in less than 2-3 seconds probably means a second gunman was involved).

Clearly dozens of witnesses did not hear a shot after the head shot, but by contrast many definitely did hear a shot after the head shot (such as Charles Brehm and Emmett Hudson who were very close to the limo and saw the explosion we see at Z313).  In addition, some witnesses like Mary Moorman and Jean Hill heard two shots after the head shot, so I am fairly certain there was at least one shot well after what we see at Z313 in the Zapruder film.  I think many witnesses failed to register this final shot (or two) because they were running away in terror and were simply unaware of events due to the unfolding chaos (including a very loud siren being emitted from the Secret Service follow up car).

In summary, I find it hard to be 100% certain about whether there were 3 or more shots fired in total due to the very split witnesses.  However, I am 100% certain that there were only 3 bursts of gunfire as nobody reported a fourth burst.  Even AJ Millican who reported 8 shots grouped them into a pattern of 3-2-3.  Naturally lone nut believers say he was confused by echoes, and conspiracy believers say each burst had a pair of shots in it.  Without concrete physical evidence either way it feels rather moot, so I find it difficult to commit either way on the total number of shots fired.
Here are the timings for Oswald's shot-1 & shot-2 & for a faux shot-3.
87 ft is the horizontal dist scaled by me, 106 ft is the hypotenuse dist allowing for vertical dist estimated by me.

Oswald Shot ----------- hit at ------ fired at  ------ sound hit JFK at – Carcano = 2170 ft per sec.
1 --- 87 ft = 106 ft ----- Z113 ------ Z112.1 ---------- Z113.9 ----- camera runs at 18.3 frames per sec.
2 --- 184 ft = 197 ft---- Z218 ------- Z216.3 --------- Z219.6
3 --- 255 ft = 266 ft ---- Z313 -------- Z310.8 --------- Z315.2 -------- Oswald did not have a shot-3.
The time tween shot-1 & shot-2 is 104.2 frames, which is 5.7 sec. Holland reckoned that shot-1 was at Z106, which is an extra 7 frames, or 0.4 sec, which makes it 6.1 sec.
The time tween shot-2 & faux shot-3 is 94.5 frames, which is 5.2 sec.
Adding to 10.9 sec.

Here are the timings for Hickey's auto burst, based on there being 6 shots.
Hickey Shot ------------- hit at ------ fired at  ------ sound hit JFK at -------
6 ---- 26 ft---------------- Z313 -------- Z312.8 ---------- Z313.2 --- hit JFK in head & cracked windshield.
5 ---- AR15 = 3250 ft per sec------------ Z310.0 ---------- hit chrome trim on windshield.
4 ---- sound = 1100 ft per sec ----------- Z307.25 -------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
3 ---- probly 400 rpm= 6.67 rps --------- Z304.5 ---------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
2 ------------------------------------------- Z301.8 ----------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
1 ------------------------------------------- Z299.0 ---- probly hit Main St pavement & then kerb near Tague.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on August 30, 2021, 05:41:07 PM
It's just that most of your "didn't see the President smile" witnesses were behind the President. So--from a defense attorney standpoint--you're "correct". Mary Woodward was off to the side and said the President didn't slump until the second shot.
No. She said:


She qualified her statement by saying that things were hazy after the first shot and just stated what she believed rather than what she distinctly recalled seeing.  Besides you are cherry-picking her statement.  One thing she was very clear on was that the last two shots were closer together.  That necessarily means that JFK reacted to the first shot.  She also made it clear that the first shot occurred a second or two after they had engaged the President with their cheers as he passed by.  They were standing opposite JFK at about z190.

Since it was a little hazy in her mind, the slumping she referred to may have been the slump after the head shot.  As she said in her later statement to the FBI:
7Dec63 - FBI statement
If you count a second or two after JFK turns (z161-165) toward Mary Woodward's group and he begins to wave (z173), that would put the first shot between z191 (z173+18) and z198 (161+37)
Quote
    "While it is true that a majority of ear-witnesses reported that the second and
     third shots were closer than the first and second, only 39% of respondents
     mentioned the spacing of the shots at all. Sixty-one percent didn’t mention
     (or were never asked about) the spacing of the shots. Of those who did,
     5% thought the first two were closer together, 25% thought the last two were
     closer together, and 9% though the shots were evenly spaced.
        One-quarter is hardly a meaningful percentage given the great pool of total
     ear-witnesses"
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
          — Dale K Myers (Dec20-2007)
I am not sure what qualifies Myers to provide statistics but if as many as 39% of ear witnesses specifically mentioned the shot spacing (my numbers are 61 out of 178) that just tells us that they may have thought other things were more important like the number of shots.  Many who did not state a pattern, nevertheless grouped the shots as one and then two more. Many may have recalled the number of shots precisely because they recalled it in two groups like that.  Myers should give us his numbers. I get 45 who  heard 1......2...3.  That may be 45 out of 178 total witnesses but it is 75% of those who recalled a pattern.
Quote
Hold on, cowboy. It's your interpretation of the evidence that I find wrong.
I am avoiding interpretation. I am taking their statements at face-value.  That is not an interpretation.

Quote
I've explained that to you countless times. If the witnesses arrived in Dealey Plaza anticipating they were about to hear three loud reports and to register in their minds the time span between each one, then that "shot pattern" consensus might have some footing. And aren't you saying the even-spacing and longer-pause-between-one-and-two witnesses are mistaken?
Look at their statements.  The ten who thought they were "about equally spaced" or the six who thought that they heard the reverse pattern were vague about it and/or very close to the events.

Quote
Why would anyone begin to take stock of the length of time between shots one and two, if most (it seems) thought the first shot was just a "backfire" or "firecracker"? No reason whatsoever to anticipate a second loud report. But when they heard the second loud report, naturally their cognizant functions heightened. They're weren't dumbstruck or anything; just when questioned later on, arrived at a perfectly understandable false memory. There's also the question of whether the siren was activated between shots two and three, which--with all the other stuff unfolding--could make the one-to-two shot span seem pretty ordinary and remote.
This just goes to show that it is you who is doing the interpretation and not taking the evidence at face value.  Your arguments are not evidence.

Quote

No. What I showed was empirical evidence that Linda Willis could not possible see the President when he was between her and the Stemmons sign. The empirical evidence shows she could see without obstruction the President when he was between her and the Thornton sign. I'm sorry this undermines your Pet Theory.
So Linda Willis was lying?  Why could she not see the President? She was standing up on a step.  She was 14 years old.

Quote
BTW, you're so anti-SBT, you might as well come out of the closet and be a conspiracy nut.  :D
That only makes sense IF the SBT was essential to the LN conclusion. It isn't.  It was the biggest mistake of the WC because the lack of evidence for it and the abundant conflicting evidence feeds CTs.  The fact is that a shot at z271 fits Oswald firing all three shots.  4.15 seconds and 2.3 seconds between shots.  And, as I have said many times Jerry, your ad hominem approach just makes your arguments look even weaker.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on August 30, 2021, 05:58:35 PM
Hi Andrew.  I agree with you, there were dozens of witnesses who referred to the final two shots being closer than the first two.  There is an important issue about whether the head shot was the last shot, and what exactly the gap was between the final two shots.  For example, some witnesses you mentioned in your analysis referred to a ratio of 2 to 1 between the gap lengths, so this could be 3 seconds and 1.5 seconds, or 6 seconds and 3 seconds (as suggested by Ralph Yarborough and Arnold Rowland respectively).  In the Zapruder film we see the gap between JFK being hit by the two shots is about 5-7 seconds depending on exactly when he was hit during Z190-Z220, which suggests that if Arnold Rowland was close to the truth then the final shot was fired around Z360-Z400 which went wild as the Presidential limo was accelerating out of danger at that point (maybe this was the bullet which hit Tague via the kerb on Main Street?).

By contrast we have other witnesses who say that the two shots fired were both fired so rapidly they were almost simultaneously fired at the time of the head shot (as suggested by George Hickey and Sam Holland).  It's hard to know the exact time frame, but it seems too rapid for a single bolt action gun to have been used (a pair of shots fired in less than 2-3 seconds probably means a second gunman was involved).
Hickey was looking forward for the last two shots and definitely recalled the last shot striking JFK in the head.  He said that the second shot did not appear to hit JFK.  It appeared to miss.  All he saw was the hair on the right of JFK's head fly up at the time the second shot sounded.  Guess where that occurs?

Brehm does not necessarily describe the headshot as the second shot.  He said that JFK's hair flew up on the second shot.  That is what Hickey saw as well on the second shot. Brehm was never questioned by the WC. It is difficult to determine what he saw.  Hudson gave two statements shortly after the events (November 22 and 25, 1963) and gave a very different statement in his testimony in July 1964.  If you go by his first two statements as being the more accurate, he says that JFK slumped on the first shot and the last two shots were in rapid succession.  He does not say which of the shots hit the President in the head. He does not even mention a shot hitting the President in the head.

Quote
Clearly dozens of witnesses did not hear a shot after the head shot,
It was not a matter of not hearing a shot after the head shot.  It is a matter of hearing and/or seeing the head shot as the third of the three shots.  The Connallys, Greer, Hickey, Powers, Bennett, and McIntyre all recalled the head shot as the third shot.  Hill recalled it as the last of two shots that he recalled but believes, based on what other agents said, that there was a second shot while he was running beside the left front of the QM.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 30, 2021, 07:50:20 PM
No.

I take it this is referring to: "said the President didn't slump until the second shot"
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
    "Things are a little hazy from this point, but I don’t believe anyone was hit with the
     first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around, as if they,
     too, didn’t believe the noise was really coming from a gun.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
     Then after a moment’s pause there was another shot and I saw the President start
     slumping in the car.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
     This was followed rapidly by another shot."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)

Quote
She said:

  • "Things are a little hazy from this point, but I don't believe anyone was hit by the first bullet.  The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around, as if they too didn't believe the noise was really coming from a gun.

    Then after a moment's pause there was another shot and I saw the President start slumping in the car.

    This was followed rapidly by another shot."

Besides you are cherry-picking her statement.

How am I cherry-picking her statement? I said Woodward said the President "slumped" only on the second shot. You just quoted her saying that. Are you saying that she lost all cognizant function when she said "Things a little hazy from this point"? Is that one of your ways of undermining a witness who doesn't support your Pet Theory.

Woodward said "My first reaction, and also my friends', was that as a joke someone had backfired their car. Apparently, the driver and occupants of the President's car had the same impression, because instead of speeding up, the car came almost to a halt." Woodward said her view to the President became (partially?) blocked by the QM and the agents (she claimed to have seen the head shot), and that she felt sick after the shooting. All those things could be the "hazy" she referred to.

Things becoming a little hazy is also when readers hear your Pet Theory's first shot entering Connally's thigh and he didn't sense it, and that he doesn't react to being shot until the Z270s when your Theory's second shot strikes him in the back.

Quote
One thing she was very clear on was that the last two shots were closer together.  That necessarily means that JFK reacted to the first shot.

Why?

Quote
She also made it clear that the first shot occurred after they had engaged the President with their cheers and after he passed by.  They were standing opposite JFK at about z190.

    "She stated she was watching President and Mrs. Kennedy closely, and all of her group
     cheered loudly as they went by. Just as President and Mrs. Kennedy went by, they turned
     and waved at them. Just a second or two later, she heard a loud noise. At this point, it
     appeared to her that President and Mrs. Kennedy probably were about one hundred feet
     from her."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
          — FBI Interview with Mary E. Woodward, CE-2084

The nearest I can find that the President had already passed Woodward by is this "as they went by". They problem is it's not the same as they had passed by her. They could still be in front of her and still be in the process of going by her group. Then there's the "one hundred feet from her" claim. Her estimate doesn't work too well for the President being out from her (20 feet) and if the distance increases, it's not longer in the Z190-Z200s. Being able to see the Kennedys faces and head turns (I think she referring to the Z40s-to-Z170s), and the distance to the President at, say, Z160 (40 feet) fits better.

Quote
The slumping she referred to may have been the slump after the head shot.  As she said in her later statement to the FBI:
7Dec63 - FBI statement
  • "Just as President and Mrs. Kennedy went by, they turned and waved at them.  Just a second or two later, she heard a loud noise.  At this point, it appeared to her that President and Mrs. Kennedy were about 100 feet from her.  There seemed to be a pause of a few seconds, and then there were two more loud noises which she suddenly realized were shots, and she saw President Kennedy fall over....

And I'm the cherry-picker?   :D

    "Then after a moment’s pause there was another shot and I saw the President
     start slumping in the car.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
     This was followed rapidly by another shot."

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I am not sure what qualifies Myers to provide statistics but if as many as 39% of ear witnesses specifically mentioned the shot spacing (my numbers are 61 out of 178) that just tells us that they may have thought other things were more important like the number of shots.  Many who did not state a pattern, nevertheless grouped the shots as one and then two more. Many may have recalled the number of shots precisely because they recalled it in two groups like that.  Myers should give us his numbers. I get 45 who  heard 1......2...3.  That may be 45 out of 178 total witnesses but it is 75% of those who recalled a pattern.I am avoiding interpretation. I am taking their statements at face-value.  That is not an interpretation.
Look at their statements.  The ten who thought they were "about equally spaced" or the six who thought that they heard the reverse pattern were vague about it and/or very close to the events.
This just goes to show that it is you who is doing the interpretation and not taking the evidence at face value.  Your arguments are not evidence.

For starters, Myers is not a fraud and cherry-picker. He (as did the Warren Commission) acknowledged the shot pattern was closer in the 2-3 range. But you're the only one making a Pet Theory of it. Witnesses are frequently mistaken.

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So Linda Willis was lying?  Why could she not see the President? She was standing up on a step.  She was 14 years old.

I didn't say Linda Willis was "lying". What "step"? Geeze you're desperate.  ???

I showed you the empirical evidence that your analysis was problematic. How can Linda Willis in the Z190s and Z200s see the President is she has to look through taller bystanders on the sidewalk and two motorcycle policemen?

(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1q5awR3H0RJCh6pnpBbRSpLrBZzbsuBLm)

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That only makes sense of the SBT was essential to the LN conclusion. It isn't.  It was the biggest mistake of the WC because the lack of evidence for it and the abundant conflicting evidence feeds CTs.  The fact is that a shot at z271 fits Oswald firing all three shots.  4.15 seconds and 2.3 seconds between shots.

The prominent LN theory has only one miss. Your Pet Theory has two. Both purported Z195ish and Z271 shots show absolutely no bullet strikes or reactions in the Zapruder film. The 3D alignments doesn't work for either.

(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1BG-WZjaNHzIjOS5DNJ-WvXhZWG58bK32)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Gerry Down on August 30, 2021, 09:05:57 PM
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1BG-WZjaNHzIjOS5DNJ-WvXhZWG58bK32)

The bullet struck the 5th rib. You have drawn it as though the bullet struck the rib on Connalys back rather than his front. I though the bullet broke Connllys rib on the front side of his body?
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 30, 2021, 09:37:13 PM
The bullet struck the 5th rib. You have drawn it as though the bullet struck the rib on Connalys back rather than his front. I though the bullet broke Connllys rib on the front side of his body?

The graphic is for Mason's Pet Theory only. It shows the entry point where I believe the HSCA showed it.

Sure, move the bullet impact more towards the front of the rib. But not too much or the bullet will be going through the right arm. The trajectory won't work for Mason's Pet Theory no matter where it strikes the rib.

(Personally I think the actual rib strike was more tangential. It's Mason's Pet Theory that has the bullet striking so nose-on.)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on August 30, 2021, 09:45:00 PM
The bullet struck the 5th rib. You have drawn it as though the bullet struck the rib on Connalys back rather than his front. I though the bullet broke Connllys rib on the front side of his body?
According to the medical evidence, the bullet struck the fifth rib in the back near the scapula (shoulder blade) and just medial to the right axilla (armpit) fold (Shaw 6H85).  There was a fracture of the fifth rib 4 cm to the right of the spine.  This was noticed by Dr. Shaw afterward from the xrays and is mentioned in his HSCA testimony (1HSCA261).  This fracture was caused by the bullet causing the rib to flex as there was nothing that struck JBC near the spine.  In order to cause the rib to move, the bullet must apply force to the rib for a bit of time.  This is not the result of the bullet passing through the rib but of striking it where it entered and following along the rib until it broke through the bone. Once it broke through the bone, the flexing force on the upper rib ended.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on August 30, 2021, 10:19:55 PM
The graphic is for Mason's Pet Theory only. It shows the entry point where I believe the HSCA showed it.

Sure, move the bullet impact more towards the front of the rib. But not too much or the bullet will be going through the right arm. The trajectory won't work for Mason's Pet Theory no matter where it strikes the rib.

(Personally I think the actual rib strike was more tangential. It's Mason's Pet Theory that has the bullet striking so nose-on.)
Nice graphics, Jerry.  But, as usual, you have everything wrong.

First of all, the bullet missed JFK's head on his right side. 
Second, you do not allow for the fact that JFK had moved significantly to his left by z271.
Third, you seem to think that JBC was turned completely 90 degrees.  But his chest is facing Zapruder so his shoulders are turned about 65-70 degrees.
Fourth, you have his wrist too high. The bullet exited through his right jacket pocket and passed through the end of his jacket cuff and through the french cuff of his shirt.  The wrist is pronated so that the back of his wrist (not the side of his wrist) is pressed against the chest (not his neck as you have it).   The end of his jacket cuff over the back of his wrist cannot be seen as it is pressed against his right jacket pocket.

I know you don't agree with my position, but in order to try to "refute" it, you have to follow the evidence.  You are just making stuff up.  In order to refute the evidence of a second shot around z271 striking JBC you have to recreate the positions of the men accurately. Since the best evidence is a two dimensional low resolution film, we have to estimate a range of possible positions and show the path to the right of JFK's head to JBC's right armpit to the back of his wrist for this range of possible positions.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Gerry Down on August 30, 2021, 11:26:57 PM
According to the medical evidence, the bullet struck the fifth rib in the back near the scapula (shoulder blade) and just medial to the right axilla (armpit) fold (Shaw 6H85).  There was a fracture of the fifth rib 4 cm to the right of the spine.  This was noticed by Dr. Shaw afterward from the xrays and is mentioned in his HSCA testimony (1HSCA261).  This fracture was caused by the bullet causing the rib to flex as there was nothing that struck JBC near the spine.  In order to cause the rib to move, the bullet must apply force to the rib for a bit of time.  This is not the result of the bullet passing through the rib but of striking it where it entered and following along the rib until it broke through the bone. Once it broke through the bone, the flexing force on the upper rib ended.

You learn something new everyday in this case. I must pay closer attention to the medical description of this rib break. I read recently that some think pieces of rib exited under connallys nipple and this is why his lapel bulges at z224. This made me think the bullet passed through his chest and burst out his front breaking the rib on the front of his chest as the bullet exited.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 31, 2021, 12:04:18 AM
Nice graphics, Jerry.  But, as usual, you have everything wrong.

First of all, the bullet missed JFK's head on his right side. 

Wrong. It would go through Kennedy first no matter how much I moved Connally.

Quote
Second, you do not allow for the fact that JFK had moved significantly to his left by z271.

One of the insets shows the over-head view. And Kennedy is to his left pretty far. You see, the Zapruder film defines where he is placed.

Quote

Third, you seem to think that JBC was turned completely 90 degrees.  But his chest is facing Zapruder so his shoulders are turned about 65-70 degrees.

15%. Wow! Even if so, your trajectory still wouldn't work.

Quote
Fourth, you have his wrist too high. The bullet exited through his right jacket pocket and passed through the end of his jacket cuff and through the french cuff of his shirt.

Not when it comes to your Theory.

Quote
The wrist is pronated so that the back of his wrist (not the side of his wrist) is pressed against the chest (not his neck as you have it).   The end of his jacket cuff over the back of his wrist cannot be seen as it is pressed against his right jacket pocket.

I don't believe Connally had a giraffe neck. You see, the profile matches that of Connally in Z272. The model's neck is proportionally-correct.

(https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jaynes2/jbcjackt.jpg)  (https://www.lubbockonline.com/storyimage/TX/20131016/NEWS/310169864/AR/0/AR-310169864.jpg)

Compare the level of the exit opening to the amount of shirt and necktie knot visible in Z272.

Quote
I know you don't agree with my position, but in order to try to "refute" it, you have to follow the evidence.  You are just making stuff up.  In order to refute the evidence of a second shot around z271 striking JBC you have to recreate the positions of the men accurately.

Looking forward to your 3D presentation.

Quote
Since the best evidence is a two dimensional low resolution film, we have to estimate a range of possible positions and show the path to the right of JFK's head to JBC's right armpit to the back of his wrist for this range of possible positions.

I see. My estimates are "making things up" Whereas, your estimates are ...
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on August 31, 2021, 02:36:14 AM
Wrong. It would go through Kennedy first no matter how much I moved Connally.
Have a look at Altgens photo taken at z256.  You can see that JBC is in the middle of his seat and is not fully turned.  His right shoulder is on a line to the right side of JFK back to the SN.  Look at z256:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/z256.jpg)
and z261:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/z261.jpg)
and explain to me how JBC's right armpit is to the left side of JFK on a shot from the SN.

It is rather obvious that you are not taking an impartial view of the photographic evidence.

Not only is JBC in the middle of his seat at z271 and that his right armpit is well right of the middle of the seat, but you are maintaining that JFK has hardly moved left at all. you have his right elbow still on the car.

Quote
One of the insets shows the over-head view. And Kennedy is to his left pretty far. You see, the Zapruder film defines where he is placed.
We can see in z261 that Jacqueline Kennedy is holding his left elbow and his left hand is up near his neck.  So his left elbow is close to the middle of the car. Work out where his midline is from that.  It is pretty clear that JFK is left of JBC in both Altgens and the zfilm.

Quote
Compare the level of the exit opening to the amount of shirt and necktie knot visible in Z272.
The bullet struck the back of the wrist at the end of the jacket cuff, which is located within the yellow square here:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/z272_wrist.jpg)

That is at least 6 inches below his tie knot.  How far below your tie knot is your right nipple?
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on August 31, 2021, 02:43:02 AM
You learn something new everyday in this case. I must pay closer attention to the medical description of this rib break. I read recently that some think pieces of rib exited under connallys nipple and this is why his lapel bulges at z224. This made me think the bullet passed through his chest and burst out his front breaking the rib on the front of his chest as the bullet exited.
The bullet basically went around the chest cavity and did not penetrate the pleura (the lining of the chest cavity around the lungs.  The bullet did not pass through the lung.  Rather it drove shards of bone inward and down through the pleura and into the lower lobe of the lung.  The only way that can happen is by impacting the outer surface of the rib and then driving through the rib from the outer surface sending bone pieces inward.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Dan O'meara on August 31, 2021, 02:45:49 AM
Also note that in z271 - 275, when the bullet is supposedly exiting JBC's chest and smashing his wrist apart, that his hand doesn't appear to move a fraction of an inch.

Irrefutable video evidence that the bullet does not exit JBC's chest at this moment.

Can't believe this nonsense is still being peddled.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Gerry Down on August 31, 2021, 02:49:46 AM
The bullet basically went around the chest cavity and did not penetrate the pleura (the lining of the chest cavity around the lungs.  The bullet did not pass through the lung.  Rather it drove shards of bone inward and down through the pleura and into the lower lobe of the lung.  The only way that can happen is by impacting the outer surface of the rib and then driving through the rib from the outer surface sending bone pieces inward.

I see. So the bullet did not go through the lung. Kinda confusing when people say Connolly's lung collapsed and this is why he puffs his cheeks trying to get air. I guess he could be puffing his cheeks from the pain.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 31, 2021, 04:54:29 AM
Have a look at Altgens photo taken at z256.  You can see that JBC is in the middle of his seat and is not fully turned.  His right shoulder is on a line to the right side of JFK back to the SN.  Look at z256:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/z256.jpg)
and z261:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/z261.jpg)

(https://images2.imgbox.com/99/92/GkOgELGP_o.gif)

Of course you can make it seem that Connally "is not fully turned" if you manipulate the pictures.

Quote
and explain to me how JBC's right armpit is to the left side of JFK on a shot from the SN.

You have no understanding of parallax and perspective.

Quote
It is rather obvious that you are not taking an impartial view of the photographic evidence.

I'm not manipulating frames and offering up this kind of stuff:

(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1wgl6VjE_NbhoqoI5WUAwM-KPny9FWGh2)

Quote
Not only is JBC in the middle of his seat at z271 and that his right armpit is well right of the middle of the seat, but you are maintaining that JFK has hardly moved left at all. you have his right elbow still on the car.

The Zapruder film depicts it there. The overhead view shows the right elbow away from the chrome strip which the elbow was over earlier.

Quote
We can see in z261 that Jacqueline Kennedy is holding his left elbow and his left hand is up near his neck.  So his left elbow is close to the middle of the car. Work out where his midline is from that.

You know Jackie was already to her right in the car?

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Altgens5Unger.jpg)

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It is pretty clear that JFK is left of JBC in both Altgens and the zfilm.

I don't think so. I think Kennedy and Connally's heads are in a line, and that both are inboard relative to Kellerman. By Z272, Connally's head was a little more inboard than Kennedy's.

Quote
The bullet struck the back of the wrist at the end of the jacket cuff, which is located within the yellow square here:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/z272_wrist.jpg)

That is at least 6 inches below his tie knot.  How far below your tie knot is your right nipple?

For adult males, about eight inches from the sternal notch to the nipple. This is within 1/2" of the measurement on my model.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on August 31, 2021, 03:14:01 PM
I see. So the bullet did not go through the lung. Kinda confusing when people say Connolly's lung collapsed and this is why h1e puffs his cheeks trying to get air. I guess he could be puffing his cheeks from the pain.
Connally's lung likely did not collapse until he got out of the car at Parkland. He said he felt no pain until then. The only missile that penetrated the pleura and lung was rib bone shards driven down into the lower lobe of the right lung. Connally kept his right wrist pressed against his chest and Dr. Shaw said that this likely allowed him to breathe en route to Parkland.

There is good evidence that JBC is saying "Oh, no, no" when he puffs out his cheeks from z242-250. . Lip readers have agreed that he is saying that there. Also Jackie turns to look at him at that point. She said that this is what drew her attention.  There is no other place where this occurs. Nellie said that JBC uttered this before the second shot. JBC was not sure.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on August 31, 2021, 07:00:33 PM
Of course you can make it seem that Connally "is not fully turned" if you manipulate the pictures.
I am talking about JBC's chest.  In case you have not noticed this about the human torso, it twists so that the shoulders turn farther than the upper chest, which turns farther than the abdomen which turns farther than the hips, which are likely facing forward and have not moved. 

Quote
You have no understanding of parallax and perspective.
Ok.  Then explain to me how you determine that JFK is NOT left of JBC here:

(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/z261.jpg)

Quote
I don't think so. I think Kennedy and Connally's heads are in a line, and that both are inboard relative to Kellerman. By Z272, Connally's head was a little more inboard than Kennedy's.
Oh, right, just like this photo taken about 30 seconds before the first shot shows that they are not in a line with Kellerman:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/jfk_front_right_HoustonStreet.jpg)

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For adult males, about eight inches from the sternal notch to the nipple. This is within 1/2" of the measurement on my model.
I just measured the vertical distance from the top of my tie knot to just below my right nipple:  7.25 inches.   Keep in mind that the garments move relative to the body. Even the skin and subcutaneous tissue can move relative to the ribs.  You can see this happening when the torso twists.  The turn with his right arm jammed between the chest and the seat-back could easily have caused shifts of the clothing.  It would indeed be remarkable that the two wounds - the chest exit and the wrist entrance - are virtually touching at z271 if the injuries took place when they were 12 inches apart (let alone not aligned with the SN or the thigh wound).
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Mark Tyler on August 31, 2021, 07:38:45 PM
Hickey was looking forward for the last two shots and definitely recalled the last shot striking JFK in the head.  He said that the second shot did not appear to hit JFK.  It appeared to miss.  All he saw was the hair on the right of JFK's head fly up at the time the second shot sounded.  Guess where that occurs?

Brehm does not necessarily describe the headshot as the second shot.  He said that JFK's hair flew up on the second shot.  That is what Hickey saw as well on the second shot. Brehm was never questioned by the WC. It is difficult to determine what he saw.  Hudson gave two statements shortly after the events (November 22 and 25, 1963) and gave a very different statement in his testimony in July 1964.  If you go by his first two statements as being the more accurate, he says that JFK slumped on the first shot and the last two shots were in rapid succession.  He does not say which of the shots hit the President in the head. He does not even mention a shot hitting the President in the head.
It was not a matter of not hearing a shot after the head shot.  It is a matter of hearing and/or seeing the head shot as the third of the three shots.  The Connallys, Greer, Hickey, Powers, Bennett, and McIntyre all recalled the head shot as the third shot.  Hill recalled it as the last of two shots that he recalled but believes, based on what other agents said, that there was a second shot while he was running beside the left front of the QM.

The statement I use for Brehm was given on 24th November, which I read as meaning the second shot was the head shot with short gaps between the shots of a few seconds or more:

When the President's automobile was very close to him and he could see the President's face very well, the President was seated, but was leaning forward when he stiffened perceptibly at the same instant what appeared to be a rifle shot sounded. According to BREHM, the President seemed do to stiffen and come to a pause when another shot sounded and the President appeared to be badly hit in the head. BREHM said when the President was hit by the second shot, he could notice the President's hair fly up, and then roll over to his side, as Mrs. KENNEDY was apparently pulling him in that direction.

BREHM said that a third shot followed and that all three shots were relatively close together. BREHM stated that he was in military service and he has had experience with bolt-action rifles, and he expressed the opinion that the three shots were fired just about as quickly as an individual can maneuver a bolt-action rifle, take aim, and fire three shots.


22H837
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0434a.htm (https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0434a.htm)

He explained this shot sequence very clearly in 1986 with the aid of a map:

As for Emmett Hudson, his early statements are lacking in detail, but by explaining more in 1964 I would say that we can use that as his clearest view of the events.  I don't think anything he said later contradicts the early statements, he merely gives more information.

Yes I agree with you, several witnesses do regard the head shot as the third, which contrasts with the others who said the head shot was the second shot.  Although superficially the Dealey Plaza witnesses seem to contradict each other on this point, I think it is possible to make sense of their testimony in terms of each of them only hearing a part of the gunshot sequence.  Some witnesses missed the first shot, some missed the last, and others heard double bangs instead of a single shot (especially near the head shot).  Overall they cluster around three clear bursts of gunfire relative to the Zapruder film:

This pattern also matches those who reported three separate shots, and also those who said the last two shots were closer than the first two.  It seems to be a rather neat way to explain the otherwise incongruous witness statements.  The only remaining issue to untangle is whether a single shot was fired in each burst, or whether a pair of shots was ever fired (i.e. two gunmen versus echoes from a single shot).
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 31, 2021, 08:20:54 PM
I am talking about JBC's chest.  In case you have not noticed this about the human torso, it twists so that the shoulders turn farther than the upper chest, which turns farther than the abdomen which turns farther than the hips, which are likely facing forward and have not moved.

I am aware of human articulation, Smartie-Pants. I used life-scale models and set the articulation points according to how Connally is seen in Z271. I'm not going to contort Connally to satisfy your Pet Theory. But you go ahead and we'll compare your graphics to the Zapruder frames.

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Ok.  Then explain to me how you determine that JFK is NOT left of JBC here:

(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/z261.jpg)


Parallax and perspective. When Kennedy leaned to his left, he pivoted on his waist and his right shoulder raised up. For Connally, he rolled backed towards Nellie. Maybe Connallyin your cherry-pick (aren't we discussing the Z271 area?) is a bit doubled up in pain from being shot through the chest a few seconds earlier. Oh yeah, you don't believe that, but instead you believe he's just waving his hat and his wrist is bent funny like that for no reason.

Quote
Oh, right, just like this photo taken about 30 seconds before the first shot shows that they are not in a line with Kellerman:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/jfk_front_right_HoustonStreet.jpg)

"About 30 seconds"? What a fraud. And a cherry-pick. One of the very few motorcade photos in which Kennedy is leaning inward and Connally is leaning outward. This is the opposite of how they were in Dealey Plaza and the approach to the sign.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Altgens5Unger.jpg)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1n-zheQbXZYkntAp8A82cXpouLTQ6JlUY)
  (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1X2yb5u7l9CuouFDagDZdn4ytbyi3emDW)

Quote
I just measured the vertical distance from the top of my tie knot to just below my right nipple:  7.25 inches.   Keep in mind that the garments move relative to the body. Even the skin and subcutaneous tissue can move relative to the ribs.  You can see this happening when the torso twists.  The turn with his right arm jammed between the chest and the seat-back

(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1EdeQTf5ZqQUyRfgTTvdx9-TZf6FY5Sn_)  (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1puh8U06Dfbk5PkcP9Q7yUK9E3JP9aGQn)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Connally's right shoulder is always above the seat-back, not "jammed".

Quote
could easily have caused shifts of the clothing.  It would indeed be remarkable that the two wounds - the chest exit and the wrist entrance - are virtually touching at z271

LOL! Only in the windmills of your mind. BTW, try to get the top of the wrist in tight and flat to just below your nipple. And how does a bullet at full velocity make a right-turn against one of the thinnest bones in the body and breaks it elsewhere? The SBT is not that farfetched.

Quote
if the injuries took place when they were 12 inches apart (let alone not aligned with the SN or the thigh wound).

You're just nitpicking and full of baloney. Show it with 3D.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on August 31, 2021, 09:07:56 PM
Also note that in z271 - 275, when the bullet is supposedly exiting JBC's chest and smashing his wrist apart, that his hand doesn't appear to move a fraction of an inch.

Irrefutable video evidence that the bullet does not exit JBC's chest at this moment.

Can't believe this nonsense is still being peddled.
I am not sure you are right about that.  There is a noticeable change in appearance of the wrist because the hat moves significantly there.  Here is the difference between two fairly clear frames z268 and z274. 
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/JBC_wrist_268_to_274.gif)
By z274 JFK's body has changed posture and he moves toward the front before falling back onto his wife.


Besides, his right arm appears to be pinned against the chest, probably because he is pressing his arm into the seatback.  Also the bullet made a glancing strike to the back of the wrist.  It did not smash his wrist apart.  Where do you ever see the wrist smashed apart?

But all of this just helps to pinpoint the frames.  It is the 1.....2...3 shot pattern with the head shot being the last shot that tells us there was a  shot there. Gerald Blaine in his book The Kennedy Detail maintains that there was a shot as Clint Hill jumped off the QM and before the headshot.  Altgens  said his z256 shot was after the first and before any other shots.  Nellie said the second shot came after she last looked back at JFK.  She is looking at him until z269 or so.  Hickey said that the last two shots occurred as he was turned looking at the President.  He is facing rearward until after z256 (Altgens). 

So I would have to disagree that there is no evidence to support a shot after the midpoint between the first shot and the headshot.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 31, 2021, 11:10:45 PM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AXW-bE6isPQ/UolNvHneNSI/AAAAAAAAw1I/wwG51z8e7zY/s1600/Z-Film+Clip+(SBT+In+Motion)(2).gif)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Mason thinks nothing is going on here
with Connally, other than Connally
showing concern for Kennedy.
 
(https://images2.imgbox.com/1d/af/SMRzD833_o.gif)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Mason thinks the strike to the wrist
occurred here because the hat moved.
(Clip starts with exact moment of
Mason's proposed strike to wrist)
  Actually the hat as it's held isn't
changing much; The change in
appearance is because areas are
moving out of shade from the roll-bar
because Connally is falling back
towards Nellie.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 01, 2021, 06:29:52 PM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AXW-bE6isPQ/UolNvHneNSI/AAAAAAAAw1I/wwG51z8e7zY/s1600/Z-Film+Clip+(SBT+In+Motion)(2).gif)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Mason thinks nothing is going on here
with Connally, other than Connally
showing concern for Kennedy.
There is a lot going on here.  JFK has just been shot.  JBC has heard it and recognized it as a rifle shot and realizes an assassination is underway.  He immediately wants to see how the President is and turns around to his right.  As he does this turn, he yells "Oh, no, no" (which his wife said was before the second shot).  This draws Jackie's attention as we can see.  Nellie said he turned around to see JFK before the second shot.  There is nowhere else where he even tries to turn to see JFK. 

Quote
(https://images2.imgbox.com/1d/af/SMRzD833_o.gif)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Mason thinks the strike to the wrist
occurred here because the hat moved.
(Clip starts with exact moment of
Mason's proposed strike to wrist)
To be fair, Jerry, I think the strike to the wrist occurred around z270 because:

1.  the vast majority of witnesses who commented on the shot spacing specifically recalled that the last two shots were closer together - in rapid succession.
2.  the Connally's insisted that JBC was not hit on the first or third shots.
3.  the head shot was the last of the shots
4.  there were exactly three shots.

I believe it likely occurred between z271 and z272 because:

1.  JBC begins moving forward at z272 and then starts falling back on his wife at about z278
2.  Greer said he turned around for the first of his two turns immediately upon (simultaneous with) the second shot.  His head is finishing the turn at z281-285.
3.  Hickey was looking forward for the last two shots.  He is still turned to the rear at z256.  He said the first of the last two did not appear to hit JFK as all he saw on the second shot was JFK's hair fly up on his right side.  His hair does exactly that from z273-277.
4.  There is a noticeable movement of the left sunvisor on between z271 and z272.
5.  There is a noticeable change in the appearance of the wrist between z271 and z272.

Now, I could be wrong within a frame or two of z271.  We cannot see JBC in z270 and only part of him in z269.

Quote
Actually the hat as it's held isn't
changing much; The change in
appearance is because areas are
moving out of shade from the roll-bar
because Connally is falling back
towards Nellie.
Right. As if we cannot see through the shadow cast by the roof bar.  There is no question that there is a change in the posture of JBC his wrist position relative to the hat:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/JBC_wrist_268_to_274.gif)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 01, 2021, 07:03:34 PM
There is a lot going on here.  JFK has just been shot.  JBC has heard it and recognized it as a rifle shot and realizes an assassination is underway.  He immediately wants to see how the President is and turns around to his right.  As he does this turn, he yells "Oh, no, no" (which his wife said was before the second shot).  This draws Jackie's attention as we can see.  Nellie said he turned around to see JFK before the second shot.  There is nowhere else where he even tries to turn to see JFK. 
To be fair, Jerry, I think the strike to the wrist occurred around z270 because:

1.  the vast majority of witnesses who commented on the shot spacing specifically recalled that the last two shots were closer together - in rapid succession.
2.  the Connally's insisted that JBC was not hit on the first or third shots.
3.  the head shot was the last of the shots
4.  there were exactly three shots.

I believe it likely occurred between z271 and z272 because:

1.  JBC begins moving forward at z272 and then starts falling back on his wife at about z278
2.  Greer said he turned around for the first of his two turns immediately upon (simultaneous with) the second shot.  His head is finishing the turn at z281-285.
3.  Hickey was looking forward for the last two shots.  He is still turned to the rear at z256.  He said the first of the last two did not appear to hit JFK as all he saw on the second shot was JFK's hair fly up on his right side.  His hair does exactly that from z273-277.
4.  There is a noticeable movement of the left sunvisor on between z271 and z272.
5.  There is a noticeable change in the appearance of the wrist between z271 and z272.

Now, I could be wrong within a frame or two of z271.  We cannot see JBC in z270 and only part of him in z269.
Right. As if we cannot see through the shadow cast by the roof bar.  There is no question that there is a change in the posture of JBC his wrist position relative to the hat:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/JBC_wrist_268_to_274.gif)

Look at the position of the bullet hole in Connally's jacket, it is below where the lapel terminates and above the top button.

(https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jaynes2/jbcjackt.jpg)  (https://www.lubbockonline.com/storyimage/TX/20131016/NEWS/310169864/AR/0/AR-310169864.jpg)

This is an approximation of the bullet hole on JBC's jacket on the day of the assassination:

(https://i.postimg.cc/dt6G1qbc/JBC-at-Love-Field-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Look at the position of his wrist at z272:

(https://i.postimg.cc/B65XVpsf/z272-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Does it really need explaining that his wrist, just below the knot in his tie, is way to high to be struck by a bullet exiting his chest at this point of the Zfilm?
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 01, 2021, 11:55:47 PM
Look at the position of the bullet hole in Connally's jacket, it is below where the lapel terminates and above the top button.


This is an approximation of the bullet hole on JBC's jacket on the day of the assassination:

Look at the position of his wrist at z272:

Does it really need explaining that his wrist, just below the knot in his tie, is way to high to be struck by a bullet exiting his chest at this point of the Zfilm?
I gather from your response that you are assuming that it is the holes in the clothing rather than in the body that determines where the bullet struck.  Why?  Or are you suggesting that the yellow dot matches the location of JBC's right nipple?:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/Omeara_nipple_location.JPG)
I would also point out that the jacket cuff had bullet hole 1/2 inch wide and 3/8 inch from the end of the sleeve:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/Gov_Connally_jacket_sleeve_09.jpg)

Since that sleeve end is not seen, we cannot be sure exactly where it was. 

It is interesting to note that the shirt cuff had two holes.  One hole went from 3/4 inch above the end of the shirt cuff (3.25 inches from the cuff fold edge) to the end of the cuff (2.5 inches from the cuff fold edge).
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/Gov_Connally_shirt_sleeve_05.jpg)

The other hole in the shirt sleeve was a very jagged horizontal hole whose edge was 1 inch from the end of the cuff fold and the other edge was 1 inch from the end of the french cuff (ie. about 1.5 inches from the cuff end):
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/Gov_Connally_above_shirt_sleeve_06.jpg)

So, if you go 3.25 inches from the end of the french cuff and on the side next to the chest, that appears to be where the bullet struck.  The bullet appears to have fragmented on striking the radius and the fragments deflecting off the back of the radius passed through the middle of the cuff causing a large irregular tear.

Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 02, 2021, 01:18:08 AM

I gather from your response that you are assuming that it is the holes in the clothing rather than in the body that determines where the bullet struck.  Why?

You gather incorrectly.
Go back and look at the images. It is clear the hole in JBC's jacket is way below the wrist position. There is no way you can explain it away. You can only deny the obvious.

Quote
Or are you suggesting that the yellow dot matches the location of JBC's right nipple?

The dot represents the bullet hole in JBC's jacket

Quote
I would also point out that the jacket cuff had bullet hole 1/2 inch wide and 3/8 inch from the end of the sleeve:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/Gov_Connally_jacket_sleeve_09.jpg)

Since that sleeve end is not seen, we cannot be sure exactly where it was. 

(https://i.postimg.cc/50TZnH95/z272-3-a.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)picture sharing (https://postimages.org/)

The cuff of JBC's jacket is clearly seen.
I've put on an arrow to help.

Quote
It is interesting to note that the shirt cuff had two holes.  One hole went from 1/2 inch above the end of the shirt cuff (3 inches from the cuff fold edge) to the end of the cuff (2.5 inches from the cuff fold edge).
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/Gov_Connally_shirt_sleeve_05.jpg)

If you go 3 inches down from the end of the french cuff and on the side next to the chest, that appears to be where the bullet struck.  The bullet appears to have fragmented on striking the radius and the fragments deflecting off the back of the radius passed through the middle of the cuff causing a large irregular tear.

The other hole in the shirt sleeve was a very jagged horizontal hole whose edge was 1 inch from the end of the cuff fold and the other edge was 1 inch from the end of the french cuff (ie. about 2.5 inches from the cuff end):
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/Gov_Connally_above_shirt_sleeve_06.jpg)

Without realising it you've provided the third piece of evidence highlighting the impossibility of a shot around z270.
In the image above it is clear the end of the jacket sleeve and the french cuff of his shirt don't line up in a way that explains the holes in each. JBC's jacket sleeve is too far down, there is too much of the shirt sleeve showing.
In the above image it is possible to determine where the radius is (at the point where his wrist is flexing, up near the tie knot). The jacket sleeve is a good few inches below this point.
How is it possible for a bullet entering the sleeve of the jacket to shatter the radius?
Answer - it's not.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 02, 2021, 03:14:35 AM
1.  JBC begins moving forward at z272 and then starts falling back on his wife at about z278

(https://images2.imgbox.com/1d/af/SMRzD833_o.gif)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Animation starts at Z271. Connally doesn't "fall forward". He only falls back towards Nellie, many frames before you say he did at Z278.

Quote
2.  Greer said he turned around for the first of his two turns immediately upon (simultaneous with) the second shot.  His head is finishing the turn at z281-285.

(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1_3ZH3sJenfoA-VC2XIjhhnaHmzSlsIBw)

Quote
3.  Hickey was looking forward for the last two shots.  He is still turned to the rear at z256.  He said the first of the last two did not appear to hit JFK as all he saw on the second shot was JFK's hair fly up on his right side.  His hair does exactly that from z273-277.

(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1BXjBEP1ube2CdY1Grw7dOuPDk3TJvQUH)

Quote
4.  There is a noticeable movement of the left sunvisor on between z271 and z272.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/ad/e9/SY6gCycj_o.gif)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Either there's a gauntlet of snipers or the wind is just making that left sun-visor wobble. Anyway, nothing to do with your mythological bullet strike at Z271.

Quote
5.  There is a noticeable change in the appearance of the wrist between z271 and z272.

(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/JBC_wrist_268_to_274.gif) ( Link (http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/JBC_wrist_268_to_274.gif) )
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
How you show it.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/51/d6/AwXcHDFF_o.gif)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
How it really is.

(https://static.agriculture.com/s3fs-public/image/2012/09/28/img_5066133225505_26608.jpg)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Saskatchewan Manure Spreader
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 02, 2021, 08:00:15 PM
You gather incorrectly.
Go back and look at the images. It is clear the hole in JBC's jacket is way below the wrist position.
It is also below and medial to the exit point on the chest, which was at the level of the fifth rib, just below and slightly medial to the right nipple.  Here is the difference:

(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/JBC_chest_exit_compare_jacket.gif)

Quote
There is no way you can explain it away. You can only deny the obvious.
It is rather simple, actually.  Use the actual location on the body and not the clothing

Quote
The cuff of JBC's jacket is clearly seen.
I've put on an arrow to help.
Uh, no. That is the edge of the hat, not the jacket cuff.  Prior to z272, the hat is covering the view of the jacket cuff.  The hat is not directly touching the jacket sleeve. The end of the jacket cuff where the bullet struck is not visible in the zfilm until after z271.

Quote
Without realising it you've provided the third piece of evidence highlighting the impossibility of a shot around z270.
In the image above it is clear the end of the jacket sleeve and the french cuff of his shirt don't line up in a way that explains the holes in each. JBC's jacket sleeve is too far down, there is too much of the shirt sleeve showing.
In the above image it is possible to determine where the radius is (at the point where his wrist is flexing, up near the tie knot). The jacket sleeve is a good few inches below this point.
How is it possible for a bullet entering the sleeve of the jacket to shatter the radius?
Answer - it's not.
I am not clear on where you think the bullet struck on the radius.  The pre-operative x-ray (CE691) shows this:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/JBC_Wrist_preop_xray_impact_location.jpg)

This wound was "rather oblique with some considerable contusion at the margins of it".  This is described in the operative record as being "over the junction of the distal fourth of the radius and shaft"  The other break in the skin was on the palm side of the wrist about 2 cm above (toward the elbow) from the flexion crease of the wrist.  (CE392, 16H533).  So the damage is some distance from the wrist joint.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 02, 2021, 10:39:43 PM
It is also below and medial to the exit point on the chest, which was at the level of the fifth rib, just below and slightly medial to the right nipple.  Here is the difference:

(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/JBC_chest_exit_compare_jacket.gif)

(https://images2.imgbox.com/a7/aa/omJLhpSW_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 03, 2021, 02:55:18 AM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/a7/aa/omJLhpSW_o.jpg)
Jerry, you are showing the wrist AFTER z271, which is when I say the bullet struck. The bullet created a jagged entrance wound and dragged mohair fibres into the wound. These fibres very likely came from the jacket cuff that the bullet had just passed through. That could easily have changed the relative positions of the jacket sleeve/French cuff/wrist/hand/hat.  So why don't you try making your argument based on the position of these things BEFORE z272?
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 03, 2021, 03:46:48 AM
Jerry, you are showing the wrist AFTER z271, which is when I say the bullet struck.

"Now, I could be wrong within a frame or two of z271."

Quote
The bullet created a jagged entrance wound and dragged mohair fibres into the wound. These fibres very likely came from the jacket cuff that the bullet had just passed through. That could easily have changed the relative positions of the jacket sleeve/French cuff/wrist/hand/hat.  So why don't you try making your argument based on the position of these things BEFORE z272?

(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1vIWf3bErYcTG6c1jqQsahH2ijcGwpeo4)  (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1puh8U06Dfbk5PkcP9Q7yUK9E3JP9aGQn)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Somewhat moot. The height of the right cuff and jacket end is still too high for the height of the chest exit wound you indicated in the Love Field picture of Connally.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 03, 2021, 04:20:25 PM
(https://images2.imgbox.com/a7/aa/omJLhpSW_o.jpg)

I know we look at things differently but some of your graphics are off the charts - this is one of them.
There could hardly be a more clear demonstration of the fallacy of Andrew's position.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 03, 2021, 07:26:01 PM
I know we look at things differently but some of your graphics are off the charts - this is one of them.
There could hardly be a more clear demonstration of the fallacy of Andrew's position.
You are comparing a photo of a twisted turned torso with shoulders skewed to a photo of him standing upright.  Here is a better comparison:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib2.gif)
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib.gif)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 03, 2021, 09:12:39 PM
You are comparing a photo of a twisted turned torso with shoulders skewed to a photo of him standing upright.  Here is a better comparison:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib2.gif)
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib.gif)

I'm not getting any of the images you are posting.
I don't know if it's just me.
Photoimage seems to be the best way to upload images (IMO)

LATER EDIT:

Not Photoimage
Postimages (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 03, 2021, 09:48:56 PM
I'm not getting any of the images you are posting.
I don't know if it's just me.
Photoimage seems to be the best way to upload images (IMO)

Could be just a temporary sharing or permissions issue. Or your might have to add "http://dufourlaw.com" in the setting for "Exceptions" (if there is such a setting) of your browser and virus checker. The "http" might be the problem; it lacks the "s" for a secure site. Images were off for me for awhile yesterday but today is fine. So the "s" may not be the problem.

Eventually it works. Mason would email images to you if you were to PM (Personal Message) him here at the Forum. But then he might be off the Forum and not know about your message.

Mason posts every thing using his law firm's site in Saskatchewan. His documents describing his Pet Theory are also posted from there, in PDF form..

Andrew would need an image-hoster that's free, allows direct-linking to the image, has unlimited transfers and supports animated GIFs.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on September 03, 2021, 11:47:12 PM
Could be just a temporary sharing or permissions issue. Or your might have to add "http://dufourlaw.com" in the setting for "Exceptions" (if there is such a setting) of your browser and virus checker. The "http" might be the problem; it lacks the "s" for a secure site. Images were off for me for awhile yesterday but today is fine. So the "s" may not be the problem.

Eventually it works. Mason would email images to you if you were to PM (Personal Message) him here at the Forum. But then he might be off the Forum and not know about your message.

Mason posts every thing using his law firm's site in Saskatchewan. His documents describing his Pet Theory are also posted from there, in PDF form..

Andrew would need an image-hoster that's free, allows direct-linking to the image, has unlimited transfers and supports animated GIFs.
I use postimage for pix & pdf & gif.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 04, 2021, 01:27:08 AM
You are comparing a photo of a twisted turned torso with shoulders skewed to a photo of him standing upright.  Here is a better comparison:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib2.gif)

But nothing wrong with you using a medical illustration of a person not twisted and who's standing upright.

Quote
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib.gif)

(https://images2.imgbox.com/df/17/8zVDSkDZ_o.jpg)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
    "Connally clamps right elbow over torn-open right chest"
          — "Kennedy and Lincoln", Dr. John K. Lattimer (1980)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
How long is this going to go on?
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
(https://i.gifer.com/76Ux.gif)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: John Mytton on September 04, 2021, 01:34:27 AM
(https://i.gifer.com/76Ux.gif)

 :D :D :D

That's so funny, the kid can't fit a square peg into a round hole so just cheats, an excellent analogy of CT thinking.

JohnM
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 04, 2021, 07:28:42 PM
But nothing wrong with you using a medical illustration of a person not twisted and who's standing upright.
??The point about using the medical illustration is to show the location on the body.  When you compare it the the twisted and leaning torso of JBC you have to allow for changes such as a dropped right shoulder. I have shown how it is certainly not impossible for the bullet exiting the chest at the level of the 5th rib as JBC is positioned in z268 to have struck him in the wrist where it did.

So Dan's response to the abundant evidence that tells us a shot around z271 striking JBC occurred, which was that it is impossible for the bullet exiting the chest to strike the wrist where it did, is not correct. So we are left with all that evidence that tells us the second shot occurred there.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 04, 2021, 07:42:25 PM
:D :D :D

That's so funny, the kid can't fit a square peg into a round hole so just cheats, an excellent analogy of CT thinking.

JohnM
Yeah. I agree.  But it is also like the SBT cheats about
1. the trajectory through JFK's neck to JBC's right armpit working
2. that the jagged tears on the french cuff, the jagged edges of the chest exit and wrist entrance wounds are consistent with CE399
3. ignoring the fact that the bullet through JBC's back made a round tunneling path
4. Ignoring the problems with a bullet exiting JBC's chest striking the right wrist changing direction and then striking the left thigh on an oblique angle in the direction of the femur at z225.
5. Ignoring Nellie Connally and all the others who said that JFK reacted to the first shot
6. Ignoring the 1... ....2....3 shot pattern
Etc.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 05, 2021, 02:30:30 AM
??The point about using the medical illustration is to show the location on the body. 

(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib2.gif)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Mason's
"Confirmation Bias"
Alignment
 
(https://images2.imgbox.com/a5/31/LjFrrbuK_o.jpg)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Non-Bias Alignment
(Top of sternum at base of necktie knot)

Quote
When you compare it the the twisted and leaning torso of JBC you have to allow for changes such as a dropped right shoulder. I have shown how it is certainly not impossible for the bullet exiting the chest at the level of the 5th rib as JBC is positioned in z268 to have struck him in the wrist where it did.

Connally is basically presenting most of his front chest area to Zapruder. His left torso and left shoulder are closer in space to Zapruder than the right side. The right shoulder is lower and pulled forward (but still above the seat-back, where Connally's right torso is in contact). The Governor's torso is declined towards Nellie about 15°. The right nipple is below the car rail, relative to Zapruder's camera view; the left nipple is above. To get the right nipple even with the car rail (relative to camera view) requires 25° more inclination. In other words, Connally in Z268-72 would have be declined at a 40° angle towards Nellie.

Quote
So Dan's response to the abundant evidence that tells us a shot around z271 striking JBC occurred, which was that it is impossible for the bullet exiting the chest to strike the wrist where it did, is not correct. So we are left with all that evidence that tells us the second shot occurred there.

Evidence other than your wounding scenario is one thing. These two things definitely won't be part of any solution:
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 05, 2021, 04:30:04 AM
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib2.gif)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Mason's
"Confirmation Bias"
Alignment
 
(https://images2.imgbox.com/a5/31/LjFrrbuK_o.jpg)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
Non-Bias Alignment
(Top of sternum at base of necktie knot)
Are you serious, Jerry? You have the right shoulder 4 inches below the shoulder in the zfilm! Do you really think that the red square is where his right nipple is?
Quote

Connally is basically presenting most of his front chest area to Zapruder.
More or less.  But his shoulders are turned almost 90 degrees to the car direction.  His hips are still likely not turned more than 20 degrees. So the torso from hips to shoulders ranges from 20 to 90 degrees to the car direction.

Quote
His left torso and left shoulder are closer in space to Zapruder than the right side.
. The difference is miniscule.  It is made even less because of the telephoto zoom lens..
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 05, 2021, 05:30:51 AM
Are you serious, Jerry? You have the right shoulder 4 inches below the shoulder in the zfilm!

The sternum is less mobile than the shoulders. And it's the chest and ribs we're most concerned with.

Leaving the sternum match in place, one could tilt the medical illustration a little to raise Connally's left shoulder, but it would not improve the elevation of the right nipple.

Maybe try it in 3D. The medical illustration is 2D and won't match up fully with a life image taken at an oblique angle.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 05, 2021, 07:04:14 AM
The sternum is less mobile than the shoulders. And it's the chest and ribs we're most concerned with.

Leaving the sternum match in place, one could tilt the medical illustration a little to raise Connally's left shoulder, but it would not improve the elevation of the right nipple.

Maybe try it in 3D. The medical illustration is 2D and won't match up fully with a life image taken at an oblique angle.
You can't be serious! And you accuse me of confirmation bias!

How can you say you are matching the sternum location when the part where the neck connects to the shoulder is at least 4 inches higher in the zframe?
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 05, 2021, 08:30:41 AM
You can't be serious! And you accuse me of confirmation bias!

How can you say you are matching the sternum location when the part where the neck connects to the shoulder is at least 4 inches higher in the zframe?

Since your medical illustration shows the shoulders at rest, a "shoulder-line" match to the photo should match with how Connally's shoulders are at rest.

(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib2.gif)  (https://news4sanantonio.com/resources/media/9be94ec1-bbb7-4b33-8cfa-7a8259ceffd5-medium16x9_download45.png)  (https://image.isu.pub/180409185401-eecfe3ba14fc0348c121a69fd1713ddf/jpg/page_1.jpg)  (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/alt5Groden.jpg)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
The right left shoulder is artificially high and the camera angle is oblique. The best you can do is match the sternum level. The sternum is approximately on the frontal plane of the upper chest, which we can see in the Zapruder film.

Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 05, 2021, 04:31:50 PM
Since your medical illustration shows the shoulders at rest, a "shoulder-line" match to the photo should match with how Connally's shoulders are at rest.

(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/chest_exit_suit_rib2.gif)  (https://news4sanantonio.com/resources/media/9be94ec1-bbb7-4b33-8cfa-7a8259ceffd5-medium16x9_download45.png)  (https://image.isu.pub/180409185401-eecfe3ba14fc0348c121a69fd1713ddf/jpg/page_1.jpg)  (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/alt5Groden.jpg)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
The right left shoulder is artificially high and the camera angle is oblique. The best you can do is match the sternum level. The sternum is approximately on the frontal plane of the upper chest, which we can see in the Zapruder film
Come on, Jerry. Anyone can see that you are not even close. As far as the sternum not moving, what are you basing that on? As far as I can tell, the whole rib cage, including the sternum is pretty flexible.  Put your hand on your sternum when you twist.

As far as the left shoulder is concerned, I agree that it is not at the same level as the right, but that is because he has dropped the right.  Besides, the point where the shoulder connects to the neck does not change 

All you are demonstrating is that the alignment of the right nipple and wrist wounds is certainly within the range of positions that are consistent with the zfilm.  I am pretty sure I could convince a panel of independent medical experts.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 07, 2021, 02:43:22 AM
But nothing wrong with you using a medical illustration of a person not twisted and who's standing upright.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/df/17/8zVDSkDZ_o.jpg)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
    "Connally clamps right elbow over torn-open right chest"
          — "Kennedy and Lincoln", Dr. John K. Lattimer (1980)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
How long is this going to go on?

"How long is this going to go on?"

The physical and video evidence demonstrate beyond a shadow of doubt that Andrew's theory of a shot passing through JBC around z271 is nonsense. It has been clearly demonstrated but he simply refuses to accept it.
If that is indeed his suggestion for the exit of the bullet labeled in your graphic it simply defies belief. It makes a mockery of common sense. To make matters worse JBC's right shoulder is noticeably lower in the Zfilm than the image of him standing making the bullet hole in the jacket even lower!!

And even if the bullet did exit where Andrew suggests, it exits on a downward trajectory and would never be able to cause the tears in the cuff of JBC's shirt.
The fact of the matter is that the bullet exits JBC's chest a lot lower and is in accord with this quote you posted:

  "Connally clamps right elbow over torn-open right chest"
          — "Kennedy and Lincoln", Dr. John K. Lattimer (1980)


This leaves the problem of the missing bullet as it has clearly been demonstrated there was no shot that hit any of the occupants of the limo around z271
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 07, 2021, 11:18:40 PM
"How long is this going to go on?"

The physical and video evidence demonstrate beyond a shadow of doubt that Andrew's theory of a shot passing through JBC around z271 is nonsense. It has been clearly demonstrated but he simply refuses to accept it.
If that is indeed his suggestion for the exit of the bullet labeled in your graphic it simply defies belief. It makes a mockery of common sense. To make matters worse JBC's right shoulder is noticeably lower in the Zfilm than the image of him standing making the bullet hole in the jacket even lower!!
You are assuming the distance from the top of the shoulder to the wound location is the same in z268 as it is in a normal standing position.  It is not.  It is longer.  The shoulders turn more than the ribs.  You have to duplicate what JBC is doing to see that his right shoulder is turned farther right than his fifth rib.  Using your left hand and facing forward, put your fifth finger on the fifth rib just below your right nipple and your thumb on your right shoulder.  Now turn your shoulder sharply right keeping your hips facing forward keeping your fifth finger below the right nipple.  Your thumb ends up 3-4 inches from the shoulder.

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[/i]
And even if the bullet did exit where Andrew suggests, it exits on a downward trajectory and would never be able to cause the tears in the cuff of JBC's shirt.
You obviously have missed the point that the bullet made two holes in the cuff: this one where it entered after exiting the chest:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/Gov_Connally_shirt_sleeve_05.jpg)

The bullet then struck the radius and fragmented. The fragments deflected up off the back of the radius and exited back through the french cuff here:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/Gov_Connally_above_shirt_sleeve_06.jpg)


Quote
The fact of the matter is that the bullet exits JBC's chest a lot lower and is in accord with this quote you posted:

  "Connally clamps right elbow over torn-open right chest"
          — "Kennedy and Lincoln", Dr. John K. Lattimer (1980)
You can see Connally's torn-open right chest? 
 
Quote
This leaves the problem of the missing bullet as it has clearly been demonstrated there was no shot that hit any of the occupants of the limo around z271
So are you agreeing that there was a bullet around z271?  If not, how do you explain the overwhelming number of people who specifically recalled the last two shots being close together - closer than the first two?
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 08, 2021, 12:11:37 AM
You are assuming the distance from the top of the shoulder to the wound location is the same in z268 as it is in a normal standing position.  It is not.  It is longer.  The shoulders turn more than the ribs.  You have to duplicate what JBC is doing to see that his right shoulder is turned farther right than his fifth rib.  Using your left hand and facing forward, put your fifth finger on the fifth rib just below your right nipple and your thumb on your right shoulder.  Now turn your shoulder sharply right keeping your hips facing forward keeping your fifth finger below the right nipple.  Your thumb ends up 3-4 inches from the shoulder.

Your usual nonsense, trying to obfuscate the issue.
Jerry's graphic, based on the exit hole in JBC's jacket, has the bullet exiting his chest close to where his elbow is pressed against his chest. Nowhere near his wrist. You have simply chosen a point based on his wrist position and are making up any old guff to try and justify it.
It is clear for anyone to see that the exit point is far lower than you are trying to convince yourself it is. It is equally clear there is no point discussing this with you as you are beyond reason.

Quote
You obviously have missed the point that the bullet made two holes in the cuff: this one where it entered after exiting the chest:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/Gov_Connally_shirt_sleeve_05.jpg)

The bullet then struck the radius and fragmented. The fragments deflected up off the back of the radius and exited back through the french cuff here:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/Gov_Connally_above_shirt_sleeve_06.jpg)

Once again you demonstrate your ability to contradict yourself to make a point.
The Z-Film shows no movement of the wrist in the frames around z271. It is clear evidence that JBC's wrist is not struck by a bullet at this point. You try to wave this irrefutable evidence away by claiming it was a "glancing strike":

"Besides, his right arm appears to be pinned against the chest, probably because he is pressing his arm into the seatback.  Also the bullet made a glancing strike to the back of the wrist."

Now we have you arguing that the bullet fragmented on contacted with his wrist, with some fragments deflecting "up off the back of the radius".
How is this a "glancing strike"?
The energy taken to fragment the bullet must be transferred to the object it is striking - JBC's radius.
This energy must then be transferred into some kind of movement of his hand but that's not what we see in the Z-Film.
The radius is shattered and fragments of bullet are lodged in his wrist.
How is this a "glancing strike"?

Quote

 So are you agreeing that there was a bullet around z271?  If not, how do you explain the overwhelming number of people who specifically recalled the last two shots being close together - closer than the first two?

We agree one the number of shots and the pattern.
As there is no strike at z271 then two possibilities exist (IMO)
1) The second shot missed and the third was the headshot.
2) The third shot missed and the second shot was the headshot.

The evidence of the Z-Film far outweighs the unreliable witness statements of those recounting a traumatic event (whether you like it or not).
Zero evidence of a strike around z271 is present in the Z-Film, so we are left with one of the two possibilities outlined.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 08, 2021, 06:20:52 AM

We agree one the number of shots and the pattern.
As there is no strike at z271 then two possibilities exist (IMO)
1) The second shot missed and the third was the headshot.
2) The third shot missed and the second shot was the headshot.

The evidence of the Z-Film far outweighs the unreliable witness statements of those recounting a traumatic event (whether you like it or not).
Zero evidence of a strike around z271 is present in the Z-Film, so we are left with one of the two possibilities outlined.
Well, there is pretty good evidence that the third shot was the last shot.  The Connallys, all the Secret Service agents, Altgens, the Newman's, Mary Woodward etc.  So it is not like there is no evidence of a second shot after the midpoint between the neck shot and the head shot.

As far as the evidence of it hitting JBC we have the Connallys and George Hickey and Greer. Hickey's evidence is pretty useful because we can actually see the hair lift as he described it.  That allows us to pinpoint when it struck. How does a bullet lift JFK's hair and not hit in the car?
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 08, 2021, 10:17:59 AM
Well, there is pretty good evidence that the third shot was the last shot.  The Connallys, all the Secret Service agents, Altgens, the Newman's, Mary Woodward etc.  So it is not like there is no evidence of a second shot after the midpoint between the neck shot and the head shot.

As far as the evidence of it hitting JBC we have the Connallys and George Hickey and Greer. Hickey's evidence is pretty useful because we can actually see the hair lift as he described it.  That allows us to pinpoint when it struck. How does a bullet lift JFK's hair and not hit in the car?

"...we can actually see the hair lift as he described it."

 :D  And here it is....the famous Hickey fringe ruffle.
You've been schooled elsewhere on this nonsense ("The First Shot" thread) so I won't be indulging you.
All I'm saying is that the evidence is conclusive - Connally was not shot through the torso around z271.
This leaves us with the options - a missed second shot or a missed third shot. I too can cherry-pick witness statements, anyone can, some that support a missed second shot and some that support a missed third shot.
The point to remember is this - the only reason you support the headshot as the third shot is to fit in with your Connally strike around z271.
The Connally strike around Z271 has been completely debunked so you don't have to be tied to the headshot = shot 3 scenario anymore.
You are free to explore other options
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 08, 2021, 04:39:10 PM
"...we can actually see the hair lift as he described it."

 :D  And here it is....the famous Hickey fringe ruffle.
You've been schooled elsewhere on this nonsense ("The First Shot" thread) so I won't be indulging you.
All I'm saying is that the evidence is conclusive - Connally was not shot through the torso around z271.
This leaves us with the options - a missed second shot or a missed third shot. I too can cherry-pick witness statements, anyone can, some that support a missed second shot and some that support a missed third shot.
The point to remember is this - the only reason you support the headshot as the third shot is to fit in with your Connally strike around z271.
The Connally strike around Z271 has been completely debunked so you don't have to be tied to the headshot = shot 3 scenario anymore.
You are free to explore other options
Yes. I am free to explore other options.  But the only option you present is to reject the abundant and clear evidence from dozens of witnesses, that the head shot was the last shot.  You say that there was a shot when Clint Hill climbed onto the back of the car at about z360 or so.  Clint Hill denied that.  You suggest that he did not notice, along with everyone else in the car.  You say that Oswald missed the entire car after hitting the bulls-eye 2.5 seconds earlier.  For some unknown reason, you can be sure that Oswald made a drastic repositioning of the rifle for his last shot.  For some unknown reason you think that Oswald was unaware that he had killed JFK on the head shot - he thought he had missed so he took another shot that really missed the entire car!

The fact is that there was nothing to aim at at z360!!!  There would be absolutely no reason for Oswald to fire at z360!!   And you accuse me of not wanting to explore other options!!!  Here is an option I would suggest: Just follow the evidence.....
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 08, 2021, 05:37:05 PM
Yes. I am free to explore other options.  But the only option you present is to reject the abundant and clear evidence from dozens of witnesses, that the head shot was the last shot.  You say that there was a shot when Clint Hill climbed onto the back of the car at about z360 or so.  Clint Hill denied that.  You suggest that he did not notice, along with everyone else in the car.  You say that Oswald missed the entire car after hitting the bulls-eye 2.5 seconds earlier.  For some unknown reason, you can be sure that Oswald made a drastic repositioning of the rifle for his last shot.  For some unknown reason you think that Oswald was unaware that he had killed JFK on the head shot - he thought he had missed so he took another shot that really missed the entire car!

The fact is that there was nothing to aim at at z360!!!  There would be absolutely no reason for Oswald to fire at z360!!   And you accuse me of not wanting to explore other options!!!  Here is an option I would suggest: Just follow the evidence.....

To make my position clear Andrew:
I don't think there is anything definitive to support a second shot miss or a third shot miss and that's that.
Anything said about Hill was presented as pure speculation whilst exploring the pros and cons of a third shot miss.
Nowhere have I stated a firm opinion on this matter as I don't believe there is evidence definitive enough to determine it one way or the other.
The only reason I favour a third shot miss is because the last two shots are so close together and it's my opinion that the more likely of these last two shots to miss would be shot 3.
Shot 1 was a hit.
It makes sense to me that, after a pause to take aim, shot 2 would be a hit.
I get the impression the shooter took his time over shot 2 but really hurried shot 3. We know it was hurried because of the many reports that shot 3 followed extremely closely after shot 2.
Other than that 'hunch' I don't have much else. As you know, it's a piece of cake to get witness statements to support almost any scenario going and there is indeed solid witness evidence that shot 3 missed but I don't put the same stock in witness statements that you do.

A shot 2 miss with a headshot at shot 3 is still a total possibility, it just seems weird to miss the shot you've taken your time on and hit with the shot you've rushed.
I have always stated the limitations of the "First Shot" model I've presented and have never shied away from solid evidence or arguments regarding the shots taken that day. The assassin must surely have seen JFK's head explode and knew there was no need for another shot. This is a strong argument against a shot 3 miss.
The only leads to follow are Tague and the potential bullet strike near the manhole cover. I believe these things are connected and are the result of the shot that missed.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 08, 2021, 10:18:20 PM
To make my position clear Andrew:
I don't think there is anything definitive to support a second shot miss or a third shot miss and that's that.
Anything said about Hill was presented as pure speculation whilst exploring the pros and cons of a third shot miss.
Nowhere have I stated a firm opinion on this matter as I don't believe there is evidence definitive enough to determine it one way or the other.
The only reason I favour a third shot miss is because the last two shots are so close together and it's my opinion that the more likely of these last two shots to miss would be shot 3.
Shot 1 was a hit.
It makes sense to me that, after a pause to take aim, shot 2 would be a hit.
I get the impression the shooter took his time over shot 2 but really hurried shot 3. We know it was hurried because of the many reports that shot 3 followed extremely closely after shot 2.
Other than that 'hunch' I don't have much else. As you know, it's a piece of cake to get witness statements to support almost any scenario going and there is indeed solid witness evidence that shot 3 missed but I don't put the same stock in witness statements that you do.

A shot 2 miss with a headshot at shot 3 is still a total possibility, it just seems weird to miss the shot you've taken your time on and hit with the shot you've rushed.
I have always stated the limitations of the "First Shot" model I've presented and have never shied away from solid evidence or arguments regarding the shots taken that day. The assassin must surely have seen JFK's head explode and knew there was no need for another shot. This is a strong argument against a shot 3 miss.
The only leads to follow are Tague and the potential bullet strike near the manhole cover. I believe these things are connected and are the result of the shot that missed.
A very reasonable position, Dan.  Your candour is most refreshing.

But it seems to me that you are basing your preference for a third shot miss on something other than evidence.  You seem to think that the last two shots being close together means that the last shot would not be accurate.  But it could also be because he did not have to move the rifle between shots.  If you look at the position of the rifle to make the head shot when he pulled the trigger at z309 or so and compare it to the position of the rifle to strike JBC in the right armpit around z268 or so, there is virtually no difference in the rifle position.  JFK's head moves a bit to the right between those positions, that's all.

Oswald had the rifle resting on boxes of books and he had a strap holding the rifle steady.  He had to reposition the rifle between the first shot and the second because the angle to the car changed significantly. But not between z269 and z310:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/View_through_scope_269_310.gif)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 08, 2021, 11:40:21 PM
A very reasonable position, Dan.  Your candour is most refreshing.

But it seems to me that you are basing your preference for a third shot miss on something other than evidence.  You seem to think that the last two shots being close together means that the last shot would not be accurate.  But it could also be because he did not have to move the rifle between shots.  If you look at the position of the rifle to make the head shot when he pulled the trigger at z309 or so and compare it to the position of the rifle to strike JBC in the right armpit around z268 or so, there is virtually no difference in the rifle position.  JFK's head moves a bit to the right between those positions, that's all.

Oswald had the rifle resting on boxes of books and he had a strap holding the rifle steady.  He had to reposition the rifle between the first shot and the second because the angle to the car changed significantly. But not between z269 and z310:
(http://dufourlaw.com/JFK/View_through_scope_269_310.gif)

No-one is shot in the limo between z223 and z313.
Both men are shot through at z223 and the headshot occurs at z313.
It is my position (at the moment) that one shot missed the limo completely.
This shot struck near the manhole cover and a fragment went on to cause Tague's injury.
This is a wild miss.
This is why I prefer a third shot miss.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on September 08, 2021, 11:46:13 PM
No-one is shot in the limo between z223 and z313.
Both men are shot through at z223 and the headshot occurs at z313.
It is my position (at the moment) that one shot missed the limo completely.
This shot struck near the manhole cover and a fragment went on to cause Tague's injury.
This is a wild miss.
This is why I prefer a third shot miss.
Ok. I understand your position.  You believe that the Connally's were mistaken in believing that the second shot struck JBC.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Dan O'meara on September 09, 2021, 12:07:20 AM
Ok. I understand your position.  You believe that the Connally's were mistaken in believing that the second shot struck JBC.

As you well know, this issue was covered extensively in "The First Shot" thread.
Yes, they were both mistaken.
The Z-Film proves it.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on June 01, 2022, 05:11:56 AM
Yes it is splitting hairs, but i definitely remember a youtube of Tina saying that she woznt sure whether she stopped filming just before the first shot or just after.  I think it woz in the context of talking to max Holland, in which case Tina might have said that just to make Max happy, i can understand that.
But my forensic analysis says that she heard shot1 at T141 & Tina stopped filming at T142.
Oswald shot at T137.
The slug hit at T138.
The sound hit at T139.
The ear part of Tina's brain told the main part of Tina's brain at T141.
Tina stopped filming at T142.
At 1:00 Tina says that the first shot was at about when she stopped filming.
But i still have not been able to find the footage where she says that she wasn’t sure whether the first shot was before or after she stopped filming.
Anyhow, i say that the first shot was at Z111, slug ricocheted at Z112, sound hit JFK at Z113.
Holland said that the first shot was at i think Z103.
Anyhow, me & Holland agree exactly re the pozzy of JFK at the first shot, his back was in line with the arm holding the overhead signals, ie the line from the Carcano to signal arm to JFK's back.
At 2:04 a guy says that there was a hole in the traffic signal -- no, that hole is a gap in the backboard -- the guy that owns that traffic signal (Christopher) has told us that there is no bullet hole.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Walt Cakebread on June 02, 2022, 01:01:09 AM
Oswald's shot-1 was at  Z113.
Below is a copy of my posting in my other thread that Oswald's shot-2 happened at Z218 based on Zapruder's startle reaction when he shook his camera at Z224, based on his startle reaction time of 3.7 frames. 

In the same way i can calculate that Oswald's shot-1 happened at Z129.8 based on Zapruder's mini-shake at Z134, based on the shake being due to the shock of the sound of the shot directly shaking the camera, based on the sound taking 4.2 frames to get from Oswald to Zapruder.  Actually, if the distance to JFK is say 88ft horizontally & 60ft vertically then that is 107ft, & if the slug moves at say 2200 fps or 120 ft per frame then the slug takes 0.9 frames.  Hence the slug was in the air at Z129.8 & hit the road at Z130.7.

Or if the mini-shake is due to Zapruder's startle reaction then i need to allow another  3.7 frames, which puts Oswald's shot-1 in the air at Z126.1 & it hits at Z127.0. 

When i say hits i mean it misses JFK & hits the signal arm & then it fragments.
(1) The remnant slug puts a non-round hole in the floor of the limo tween the jump seats (we have a photo) & hits the road.
(2) The copper jacket breaks into 2 pieces as is usual (it is made of 2 pieces joined together), giving us CE567 CE569 found in the car.
(3) Small lead fragments hit JFK in the back of his head (as seen on xrays). 
(4) Other larger lead fragments found in the limo might belong to Oswald's shot-1 or they might belong to Hickey's  AR15.

However i reckon that Oswald's shot-1 happened at Z113, not the above Z127 or Z131. 
This is based on the limo at Z133 being one car length past where it was when Oswald fired.  Before today i reckoned that Oswald's shot-1 was at Z123, based on the limo at Z133 being a half car length past, but today i had a closer look at photos etc & i saw that 1 full limo length past was the true situation.

More exactly, the difference is equal to the length of a painted white line on the roadway.  This is about 17ft.  I saw that the limo takes 19 frames to move the length of the stripe, ie from Z133 to Z152, & then the limo takes another 19 frames to reach the next painted stripe.  But if i assume that the limo was accelerating a little prior to Z133 i can round it off to say 20 frames.  Hence Oswald's shot-1 happened at Z113, meaning that it hit at Z113, but Oswald fired at Z112 (the slug being in the air for 0.9  frames).

The slugs hit at Z113 & then Z218 & then Z313 (an auto burst of 4 or 5 shots).

[PREVIOUSLY I SAID]…..Oswald's shot-2 was at  Z218.
Working backwards, Zapruder is startled at Z318 Z319 Z320, which is 5 frames after Hickey's 4 or 5 shots at Z313 Z314 Z315 Z316 Z317.  Zapruder is 84ft from Hickey, & the speed of sound is 343 m/s or 62ft per frame, so that takes 1.3 frames.  Deducting 1.3 from 5 gives a startle reaction time of 3.7 frames. 

Zapruder is startled at frames Z224 to Z229.  Deducting 3.7 from Z224 gives Z220.3.  Zapruder is 264 ft from Oswald, for which the  sound takes 4.2 frames.  Hence Oswald shot at Z216.1.  The slug moved at say 2200 fps which is 120 ft per frame, & Oswald is 197 ft from JFK, hence the slug takes  1.6 frames.  Adding 1.6 to Z216.1 gives Z217.7 as the time that JFK is hit, ie say Z218.

Z218 has always been my estimate based on Connally's testimony re Connally's turning movements.  He said he was turned/looking right, then turned to look over his left shoulder but only got halfway  there when the slug hit him.  That right to left turn can only have happened whilst Connally was hidden by the sign, & Z218 is dead center in that period.
Re Oswald's shot-1, this happened some time before Z133, Z133 being Zapruder's first frame of  that sequence.  We know where shot-1 happened, it happened at the signals, the shot ricocheting off the signal arm. But when is not known.  If it was a half limo length before Z133 then at 1 ft per frame that makes shot-1 at Z123. A full limo makes it Z113.
[END OF QUOTE].


"Oswald's shot".....  Ridiculous!!    Since Lee Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom at the time of the shooting, the only "shooting" he might have done, was shooting the breeze with Jarman and Norman when they walked past the lunchroom. at 12:27.....
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on June 02, 2022, 09:55:59 AM
"Oswald's shot".....  Ridiculous!!    Since Lee Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom at the time of the shooting, the only "shooting" he might have done, was shooting the breeze with Jarman and Norman when they walked past the lunchroom. at 12:27.....
Oswald didnt take any lunch to work that day.
If Oswald was claiming that he was in the lunchroom at 12:27 then he would have meant the Domino (lunch) Room, not the Staff Lunch Room.
Either way neither lunch room works -- u cant walk past Oswald having lunch in the Domino Room, nor in the Staff Lunch Room -- unless the walker makes a detour to poke their head in to say see who is there (in which case they still dont walk past).
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Walt Cakebread on June 02, 2022, 09:17:57 PM
Yes Jarman/Norman could have walked past outside that window, to or from the stairs on the footpath/sidewalk of Houston.
But why would they use Houston?

why would they use Houston?

Because they couldn't get through the crowd at the front door, and they were at the south east corner of the TSBD ( Houston & Elm)  So the quickest route to the 5th floor was by way of the sidewalk along the east side of the TSBD ( along Houston street)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on June 02, 2022, 10:53:20 PM
why would they use Houston?

Because they couldn't get through the crowd at the front door, and they were at the south east corner of the TSBD ( Houston & Elm)  So the quickest route to the 5th floor was by way of the sidewalk along the east side of the TSBD ( along Houston street)
Yes, that works.
And, Oswald did the same thing at 12:32, he walked from the SE cnr of the TSBD towards the NE cnr, to enter the TSBD to get his jacket laying in that same window. But he stopped & did a u-turn koz he saw Officer Barnett standing at the NE cnr.  Frazier saw Oswald walking south along Houston (& then probly saw Oswald crossing Houston).

Frazier didn’t say, but if Frazier woz close enuff Frazier would have heard Oswald's tummy growling, koz Oswald hadnt had any lunch.
So, why would Oswald be sitting in the Domino Room if Oswald didn’t bring any lunch?
[edit 4june2022][A caterer sold lunches outside at 10 am each workday, hence Oswald could have bort lunch that day.]
[But if he had bort lunch then he would have said so][But if he had bort lunch then would he really have bort the same cheese sandwich & apple that he usually brort from Marina's place?][Marina said that Oswald sometimes bort a hamburger, i think that this would have been from this caterer}

(https://i.postimg.cc/NfR38B59/romack-barnett-adams-styles-worrel-pate-oswald-truly-baker.jpg)
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2940.msg111780.html#msg111780
Baker & Truly managed to get onto the roof at about 12:33, by using a fixed ladder to the trapdoor, the stairway from Floor-7 being locked.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 03, 2022, 04:19:41 AM
How do you know for a fact that Oswald didn’t bring any lunch? Or buy some lunch, for that matter.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on June 03, 2022, 06:01:31 AM
How do you know for a fact that Oswald didn’t bring any lunch? Or buy some lunch, for that matter.
Frazier noticed that Oswald had not brort his lunch, when Frazier picked him up that morning.
Yes i might have seen a mention of a lunch delivery service to the TSBD.
And i might have seen where Oswald once mentioned that he had a favorite sandwich shop a bit down Houston.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 03, 2022, 06:26:25 AM
And Marina said he did bring a lunch, so who knows what is true?
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on June 03, 2022, 06:51:51 AM
Oswald contradicts Frazier re the curtain rods, & re not bringing lunch that day.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9f6fBfz7/lunch-oswald-kelley-cheese-bread-fruit-apple.png)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on June 03, 2022, 06:52:49 AM
And Marina said he did bring a lunch, so who knows what is true?
Did Marina give any details?
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on June 03, 2022, 07:05:57 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/DfM7QZDy/lunch-oswald-frazier-no-lunch-sack.png)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on June 03, 2022, 08:50:31 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxZcqnDn/lunch-oswald-cheese-sandwich-apple.png)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on June 03, 2022, 08:46:25 PM
At 1:00 Tina says that the first shot was at about when she stopped filming.
But i still have not been able to find the footage where she says that she wasn’t sure whether the first shot was before or after she stopped filming.
Anyhow, i say that the first shot was at Z111, slug ricocheted at Z112, sound hit JFK at Z113.
Holland said that the first shot was at i think Z103.
Tina Towner has always been consistent in saying that the first shot occurred seconds after she stopped filming. 

So Max Holland is twisting her words to fit his nice theory that does not fit with any facts.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on June 03, 2022, 09:29:11 PM
Tina Towner has always been consistent in saying that the first shot occurred seconds after she stopped filming. 
  • In the earliest interview for a teen magazine in 1968 she said that she started walking back to the corner to get ready to leave when the first shot sounded. (Towner, Tina. "View From the Corner." Teen June 1968: 46-49, 90).
  • In her written statement filed with the Sixth Floor Museum she said that the first shot sounded 4-6 seconds after she stopped filming. In an email to me from Gary Mack of March 1, 2007, Gary stated:
    "I've known Tina Towner since 1978 and my memory has been that she said the first shot came just a second or two after she stopped filming. However, in a March 30, 1996 oral history, Tina said it was four to six seconds.  So either I have misremembered, which is possible, or her memory has changed.
  • In a 2013 report of a presentation Tina made in Greenville, TX (https://www.heraldbanner.com/news/local_news/capturing-few-seconds-of-history/article_8bf054fe-3e87-51e0-8e33-232a60e97394.html) it is stated:
    “I heard the first gunshot right after I quit taking the film,” Towner said, as she appeared last week before the Greenville Kiwanis Club.
    ...
    She said she heard the first shots “about two seconds” after she stopped filming."


So Max Holland is twisting her words to fit his nice theory that does not fit with any facts.
Yes i think that her statement that shot-1 was just before or just after she stopped filming was to Holland & might have been a soft version to not overly offend his theory that shot-1 was at Z103 (my Z113), or at least when JFK was in line with the Oswald's view in line with the overhead signal arm.
However, Holland was not twisting her words, her words are her words, unless the footage was cleverly edited.
However, Holland might have pressured her in the usual ways.

However, Holland was correct (place wize)(if not time wize). The "solid-facts" tell us that. Witness statements are all quasi-facts, pseudo-facts & faux-facts.
So, either Tina miss-remembered, or, she miss-heard.
If what she says was shot-1 was shot-2 then Tina's 4 sec makes sense, koz most of us agree that (Oswald's) shot-2 was 5 or 6 sec after (Oswald's) shot-1.
Shot-1 was at T137 (possibly Z113 say i)(Z103 says Holland i think), & Tina stopped filming at T142 (possibly Z118)(Z108).
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Andrew Mason on June 04, 2022, 12:05:25 AM
Yes i think that her statement that shot-1 was just before or just after she stopped filming was to Holland & might have been a soft version to not overly offend his theory that shot-1 was at Z103 (my Z113), or at least when JFK was in line with the Oswald's view in line with the overhead signal arm.
However, Holland was not twisting her words, her words are her words, unless the footage was cleverly edited.
However, Holland might have pressured her in the usual ways.

However, Holland was correct (place wize)(if not time wize). The "solid-facts" tell us that. Witness statements are all quasi-facts, pseudo-facts & faux-facts.
So, either Tina miss-remembered, or, she miss-heard.
But it is not just Tina Towner.  Hugh Betzner said the first shot followed his z186 photo. Phillip Willis said the first shot was an instant before his z202 photo - that he clicked the shutter as a reflex to hearing the sound. Croft said he took his z161 photo and then hurried to wind his camera and pressed the shutter at the moment that he heard a shot - the Argus camera malfunctioned and the film was not exposed.*

And that is not all.  There are at least 20 witnesses who said that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot.  Not a single witness said he smiled or waved after the first shot.  You have him smiling and waving for about 5 seconds after it.

And, again, that is not all:  at least a dozen witnesses put the first shot when the President was just passing or almost passing or had just passed where they were standing. This puts the first shot between z190 and z220.  Linda Willis said the first shot occurred when the President was between her and the Stemmons sign (between z195 and z205). 

And that is not all.  For Tina Towner to have been wrong, there had to have been at least 5 seconds between the last two shots.  Yet over 45 witnesses provided statements and/or testimony that the last two shots were in rapid succession and noticeably closer together than the first two.  Shots at z120, z225 and z313 do not fit that pattern.

All of these witnesses, not just Tina Towner, would have to not only be wrong in their observations, but to have recalled it incorrectly the same way. And it is just this one fact that witnesses would have been wrong on.  The witness evidence is generally accurate with respect to the other observations they made.

Holland's theory is clever, but ugly facts make it untenable.
----------------------------------------------

* Here is what Gary Mack wrote to me in that email from 2007 about Croft's camera:

"As for Croft's blank photo, I can explain that, for my father had the exact same camera model, an Argus C-3.  Dad used to get blank pictures all the time and he always got so made when it happened! 

To advance the film in that camera, one had to depress a button on the top right and turn a knob on the top left.  If you held the button down too long, which Dad often did, you'd roll past the next position on the roll of film.  The skipped area would be blank - and that's what Croft received when his pictures were processed."
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on June 04, 2022, 01:38:07 AM
But it is not just Tina Towner.  Hugh Betzner said the first shot followed his z186 photo. Phillip Willis said the first shot was an instant before his z202 photo - that he clicked the shutter as a reflex to hearing the sound. Croft said he took his z161 photo and then hurried to wind his camera and pressed the shutter at the moment that he heard a shot - the Argus camera malfunctioned and the film was not exposed.*

And that is not all.  There are at least 20 witnesses who said that JFK reacted immediately to the first shot.  Not a single witness said he smiled or waved after the first shot.  You have him smiling and waving for about 5 seconds after it.

And, again, that is not all:  at least a dozen witnesses put the first shot when the President was just passing or almost passing or had just passed where they were standing. This puts the first shot between z190 and z220.  Linda Willis said the first shot occurred when the President was between her and the Stemmons sign (between z195 and z205). 

And that is not all.  For Tina Towner to have been wrong, there had to have been at least 5 seconds between the last two shots.  Yet over 45 witnesses provided statements and/or testimony that the last two shots were in rapid succession and noticeably closer together than the first two.  Shots at z120, z225 and z313 do not fit that pattern.

All of these witnesses, not just Tina Towner, would have to not only be wrong in their observations, but to have recalled it incorrectly the same way. And it is just this one fact that witnesses would have been wrong on.  The witness evidence is generally accurate with respect to the other observations they made.

Holland's theory is clever, but ugly facts make it untenable.
----------------------------------------------

* Here is what Gary Mack wrote to me in that email from 2007 about Croft's camera:

"As for Croft's blank photo, I can explain that, for my father had the exact same camera model, an Argus C-3.  Dad used to get blank pictures all the time and he always got so made when it happened! 

To advance the film in that camera, one had to depress a button on the top right and turn a knob on the top left.  If you held the button down too long, which Dad often did, you'd roll past the next position on the roll of film.  The skipped area would be blank - and that's what Croft received when his pictures were processed."
There has been a lot written about witnesses for 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 shots & more (eg a flurry of shots).
Many standing near Houston said that shot-1 was when the jfklimo was close to Houston, & as the jfklimo got straight, & when the jfklimo was near the signals.  I myself found a new witness……
Howard Whately that said 3 years ago (edited)
…………… i was there sir and heard 4 to 6 shots i was  about 25 ft. east of tsbd. you could tell the difference 1 shot was low kinda muffled came just as the limo got straight on elm i'm sure it missed……….
Howard Whatley 3 years ago
…………….that's right,and the two were different sounds the first of the two wasn't quite as loud the second sounded lower in tone but louder.iv'e filled many deer and hogs ,and the sound of a bullet hitting a skull or anything else does not make a sound similar to the actual discharge of a rifle,sometimes a popping sound is conman………..
Dallas Brubaker 3 years ago (edited)
………….Howard Whatley, You were in Dealey Plaza on 11-22-1963 at 12"30 pm cst?.........
Howard Whatley 3 years ago
……………..right strictly by chance,i didn't even know he was coming until the told us at the courthouse.went there to get manage licence.never spoke much about it.went back to camp Pendleton sunday came back home in jan. 1964. my  wife and i made a vow not to tell anyone and i kept it until she passed away in 2005.there's a couple things i never heard anyone mention what i saw and heard some of the witness' have said and some the complete opposite.will say without any doubt there were more than three shots and the last came so close together no way did they come from a bolt action rifle……………………

Here is my own idea of the shot sequence, if Hickey fired 6 shots (he fired at least 4).
Shot-1 (which ricocheted offa the signal arm) was at about Z103 (Holland) or about Z113 (me). Anyhow it was when JFK was in line with the signal arm (from Oswald's carcano).
Shot-2 was at Z218 (me)(the magic bullet).
Shot-3 (Hickey's AR15) was at Z298 (bloodied Tague)(modern AR15s can fire at 1200 rpm, but Hickey's AR15-601 probly fired at 400 rpm).
Shot-4-5-6 hit tarmac & kerb & grass at Z301-304-307.
Shot-7 at Z310 hit the chrome trim of the jfklimo windshield above the mirror.
Shot-8 hit JFK in the head at Z313, & the remnant slug cracked the windshield glass left of the mirror.

Holland's theory is good & bad & ugly.
Good—Shot-1 ricocheted offa the signal arm he said. Yes.
Bad – Shot-1 hit the tarmac he said (& he said remnants bounced up into the jfklimo). No, the 2 copper jacket remnants went directly into the jfklimo. No, we know that the slug put a hole in the floor of the jfklimo.
Ugly – Shot-1 bloodied Tague he said. No.

JFK was hit in the back of the head by lead splatter from the ricochet of shot-1 (as can be seen in Xrays).
JFK said …. 'my god i have been hit'…. (according to Kellerman).
But as u say JFK went back to smiling & waving (thinking that it was a firecracker or backfire).
Connally initially said that shot-1 was near Houston.

There is only one person in the world that is correct, me. Read my 400 postings (the early ones aint so good)(but i was learning fast).
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on June 04, 2022, 05:10:20 AM
The Oswald Diet looks to me to be ok for a young guy using lots of energy & on his feet at work all day.
However a good or bad diet depends mainly on the quantity of food rather than quality (within reason).
For guys who are not very active the Oswald Diet would be ok if quantity was kept minimal.
But if u tend to be overwt i would not follow the Oswald Diet, ie i would make changes to the quality, mainly reducing sugar (especially fructose) & flour (carbohydrate).
I see that the diet ideas of Dr Eric Berg (youtube) do not contradict my own general ideas (that i came up with in 1974)(mostly from one book).
Here are my comments re the Oswald Diet.

Breakfast -- For guys who are less active i would agree with Oswald that breakfast is not needed. A cup of coffee is ok (don’t use sugar).

LunchPeanut butter is ok if u are not overwt (9% sugar). Cheese is ok. Lettuce is ok. Avoid fruit (fructose is bad)(carb is bad if overwt). Avoid apple (fructose is bad)(carb). If overwt i would avoid bread (carb)(possible seed reaction). I would avoid Coke&Pepsi (fructose)(carb)(nowadays diet coke might be ok). Bananas are marginal (fructose).
I think that Oswald sometimes bort a hamburger for lunch (but i suspect that Marina was mistaken)(it was for dinner). Anyhow the occasional hamburger is ok (carb)(sugar).
But best to not have any lunch if not very active, just have one meal a day (Dinner).
Exercise -- Lunchtime is good -- eg shoot a president out of season without a permit -- & a brisk walk down several flights of stairs to a bus-stop.

Dinner Meat & veggies are good. I would avoid fruit (fructose) & desert (if sugar)(& if pastry).
I would add fish (daily)(eg sardines).
Me myself i eat raw veggies (ie that dont need cooking)(daily), except that i have fries (potato)(daily)(my favorit food).
Dont overdo the salt (especially if u have hi blood pressure).
Alcohol – Oswald didn’t drink grog, & didn’t smoke.

If Oswald bort lunch near TSBD it would be a hamburger i think.
[edit 4june2022][A caterer sold lunches outside the TSBD at 10 am each workday, & probly sold hamburgers][why would Oswald buy the same old cheese sandwich & apple that he usually got from Marina?]

(https://i.postimg.cc/tg92wSDt/lunch-oswald-marina-cheese-peanut-butter-lettuce-fruit-apple-hamburger-coke.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjvJT3xs/lunch-oswald-frazier-pge-221-caterer.png)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on December 20, 2022, 09:15:41 PM
This is nutty. Just nutty. Even the WC admitted that any shot fired from the sixth-floor window before Z166 would have required a sharply downward angle. What's more, at that point, a sixth-floor gunman would have had only a partial view of the back of JFK's head, since part of his head would have been somewhat parallel to the window. Therefore, how would a bullet that hit the guy rod with JFK at this location on the street have been able to send fragments streaking toward him that could have landed near the upper midline of the back of his skull? How?

Incidentally, any shot from the sixth-floor window that could have hit the traffic signal's guy rod would have had to be fired well after Z113, closer to Z140. The traffic light was only about 10 feet from the tree. The sixth-floor window's view of the limo would have been obstructed by the oak tree from Z166 to Z207, so a sixth-floor shot that hit the traffic signal's guy rod would have occurred at around Z140, give or take 5-10 frames.

Finally, you seem to be forgetting about the Tague curb shot. It boggles the mind to try to fathom how a bullet that struck the traffic light's guy rod could have produced a large fragment that could have traveled over 400 feet and struck the Main Street curb near Tague and struck it with enough force to send metal or concrete streaking rapidly enough toward Tague to cut his face.
If u have a look at my thread/link u will see that Holland reckoned that JFK was obstructed by the signal arm at (pseudo) Z103. I reckoned it woz at (psueudo) Z113.  The diff being a half limo length (10 ft @ 1 Z frame per ft). I am happy to split the diff, in which case Oswald shot-1 woz at say (pseudo) Z108.

The Roselle & Scearce investigation of reactions seen after Z133 concludes that the first shot was at about (pseudo) Z120 i think (i karnt remember), based on typical startle reaction times.
https://www.acsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-Estimating-Occult-Timing-of-Surprise-Gunshot-Sounds-in-Silent-Film-via-Observed-Start-of-Human-Voluntary-Reactions-of-Concern-Roselle.pdf
http://jfkforensics.net/secretsofthezapruderfilm.html


My thread/link includes a reconstructed view from the sniper's nest – this shows that the downwards vertical angle was no problem – something less than 40 deg off horizontal.

The ricochet offa the signal arm is a bit of a problem.  There are 10 possibilities.
A simple ricochet offa the western or eastern side of the eastern guyrod (1)(2), or offa the main pipe (3)(4), or offa the western guyrod (5)(6).
Or a double ricochet offa the eastern guyrod & the pipe (7) – or offa the pipe & the eastern guyrod ( 8 ) – or offa the pipe & the western guyrod (9) – or offa the western guyrod & the pipe (10).

The more i think about it the more i favor a double ricochet – say two slightly glancing kontakts – enuff to break the brass jacket into two (found in the limo), plus give a large remnant lead slug (which makes a hole in the floor of the limo), plus some lead splatter (Xray of head).

There is a possibility that the two brass bits of jacket separated when the slug went through the floor (unlikely i think).
I would have a better idea of the exact possible nature of the ricochet if i could find the youtube footage of i think it was Haag's ricochet tests offa pipe -- or at least find the full report of the ricochet tests -- i think that the youtube requires a $$$ fee.

Holland's (& i think Donahue's) theory that the first shot caused the wound to Tague's left cheek is of course silly.
I have explained that Tague's wound was due to Hickey's first or say second shot of his accidental auto burst of his AR15 at say Z300 to Z313. The last shot being the headshot – the remnant slug cracking the windshield glass. The second last shot denting the chrome trim above the mirror.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on October 14, 2023, 12:51:03 AM
Two more pix of the signals.
The slug probly ricocheted off the westernmost side of the westernmost guy rod, the rod might be 3/4" or 1", probly steel pipe but might be solid steel. The slug must have hit very near the collar, hence it could not have hit the large pipe koz then it would have been stopped by the westernmost guy rod.  And the slug could not have hit the easternmost guy rod koz then it would have been stopped by the big pipe.  Drawings or photos of the view from Oswald's window must if they are correct show the collar on a line to the left of the centerline of jfk's neck/head/body, however most films photos drawings show the collar too far right, or they show the collar in the correct location but show jfk too far left.  No, the collar was inches left of jfk. The slug hit a few inches down from the collar.  The slug hit the westernmost guy rod at about where the guy has his hand.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e6Ch-CWNZyucDCd9etpWZxJqtwS6V0bWIjJJJw4KBXgNpXKIrjLF5Rrqh1eDMJizBkgOINU7BQEXWG-mdrYPoxp774A5V0kBn7Hko81V1jJGCpA1sIaUNNyzMx2zrvW1-lSzsnlbJtGEOTMRwcQBtL=w480-h270-no?authuser=0)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d8J5QECXRsNFITRNQ54s1h0JuQOkLHFG-gkaUHTGeDKUIN_b13BgHzD31HCRSvifpB_euV1E4dvGZqVstA0A4dJp-hlXPH4nNmWaqGg0vARk3GIShJtMaZxu_O02X96V-Gf41ijBBJppQM-So2qKru=s1007-no?authuser=0)
Landis, in his book, says that the 2 (brass) fragments were on the back seat in blood (between Jackie & JFK or ?). This might confirm that Oswald's shot-1 (at say pseudo Z103 or later) ricocheted offa the near (eastern)  side of the western guy-rod, near the collar on the 2" pipe. We know that the lead splatter hit jfk on the back right of his head (xray shows bits stuck in galea). We know that the remnant lead slug made a hole in the floor between Mr & Mrs Connally. We know from ricochet tests that the splatter & the remnant slug & the 2 brass halves (there are always 2) take different angles after ricochet, but i karnt today find the test results. So, somehow, the 2 brass halves finished close together, on the seat.

My thoughts were cut short. I looked at Governor Connally. Seated directly in front of the president, he was slumped to the side.He must have turned at some point. His white shirt had bright red bloodstains. Good God, had he had been hit too, or was he just splattered with the president’s blood? I then realized that he had also been shot, probably by the second bullet, and his body was blocking the right rear door of the limo.

SA Lawson arrived with his gurney, and other agents quickly started to move Governor Connally onto it. Once that task was completed, Mrs. Connally stood up and exited the limo, following the governor’s gurney as they raced toward the emergency entrance.With Governor Connally out of the way, the pathway was clear enough for agents to get to the president. While all of this was happening, Mrs. Kennedy continued to cradle her husband’s head. The president’s body wasn’t going anywhere until Mrs. Kennedy released him. Clint kept urging her to let go, while I scanned the inside of the car and the surrounding
outside area.

The entire scene was crazy and awful. Pieces of pink flesh, gray brain matter, and blood were splattered everywhere. They clung to the backseats and all over the right rear door panel. It was a mess, an ugly, bloody mess. Continuing my surveillance, I looked back toward the follow-up car. It was now empty, and there were no agents in sight.

I returned my attention to the presidential limo. Looking down at the seat beside Mrs. Kennedy, I saw two brass bullet fragments sitting in a pool of bright red blood. I could hardly believe it. They glistened like two gold nuggets in their blood-red surroundings. I bent over, picked up the largest of the two pieces, and examined it. It was about the size of the end of my little finger. It looked like a small mushroom that had been squashed. I quickly replaced it exactly where I had found it.

About then, even though only seconds had passed, Clint finally convinced Mrs. Kennedy to let go of the president’s head. When she released it, someone said, “Cover up his head.” Thinking quickly and without hesitating, Clint removed his suit coat and covered the president’s head and upper torso. None of us wanted anyone to see the president in this condition. Then Clint, ASAIC Kellerman, and SA Lawson were finally able to remove the president’s lifeless body from the backseat area of the limo and place it onto a gurney.

Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 21, 2023, 09:59:11 PM
The Oswald Diet looks to me to be ok for a young guy using lots of energy & on his feet at work all day.
However a good or bad diet depends mainly on the quantity of food rather than quality (within reason).
For guys who are not very active the Oswald Diet would be ok if quantity was kept minimal.
But if u tend to be overwt i would not follow the Oswald Diet, ie i would make changes to the quality, mainly reducing sugar (especially fructose) & flour (carbohydrate).
I see that the diet ideas of Dr Eric Berg (youtube) do not contradict my own general ideas (that i came up with in 1974)(mostly from one book).
Here are my comments re the Oswald Diet.

Breakfast -- For guys who are less active i would agree with Oswald that breakfast is not needed. A cup of coffee is ok (don’t use sugar).

LunchPeanut butter is ok if u are not overwt (9% sugar). Cheese is ok. Lettuce is ok. Avoid fruit (fructose is bad)(carb is bad if overwt). Avoid apple (fructose is bad)(carb). If overwt i would avoid bread (carb)(possible seed reaction). I would avoid Coke&Pepsi (fructose)(carb)(nowadays diet coke might be ok). Bananas are marginal (fructose).
I think that Oswald sometimes bort a hamburger for lunch (but i suspect that Marina was mistaken)(it was for dinner). Anyhow the occasional hamburger is ok (carb)(sugar).
But best to not have any lunch if not very active, just have one meal a day (Dinner).
Exercise -- Lunchtime is good -- eg shoot a president out of season without a permit -- & a brisk walk down several flights of stairs to a bus-stop.

Dinner Meat & veggies are good. I would avoid fruit (fructose) & desert (if sugar)(& if pastry).
I would add fish (daily)(eg sardines).
Me myself i eat raw veggies (ie that dont need cooking)(daily), except that i have fries (potato)(daily)(my favorit food).
Dont overdo the salt (especially if u have hi blood pressure).
Alcohol – Oswald didn’t drink grog, & didn’t smoke.

If Oswald bort lunch near TSBD it would be a hamburger i think.
[edit 4june2022][A caterer sold lunches outside the TSBD at 10 am each workday, & probly sold hamburgers][why would Oswald buy the same old cheese sandwich & apple that he usually got from Marina?]

(https://i.postimg.cc/tg92wSDt/lunch-oswald-marina-cheese-peanut-butter-lettuce-fruit-apple-hamburger-coke.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjvJT3xs/lunch-oswald-frazier-pge-221-caterer.png)
I have changed my mind re what is a good diet.
Today 22Nov2023 i am going to start on the carnivore diet.
No fruit (i already did that), & no bread or biscuits etc (i already did that), & no sugar (already did that).
And today i start with no veggies.
So, no more potato fries (my favorite)(i have fries almost every day).
No more carrot peas cabbage onion silverbeet.
Lots of bacon smoked ham chicken (free range) fish (wild caught) smoked cod mussel (farm) corned beef steak sausages (all grass fed)(no grain fed), kangaroo, wallaby, eggs (free range), cheese, olive oil (no seed oils)(lard is ok).
I will have salami & cheese every day (evening really, ie dinner)(i never have breakfast)(& i almost never hav lunch).
Cant wait. Starts today, koz my fridge is finally empty. So i am going in to town to do my carnivore shopping.
There is sometimes some roadkill.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 23, 2023, 10:41:52 PM
Here are the timings for Oswald's shot-1 & shot-2 & for a faux shot-3.
87 ft is the horizontal dist scaled by me, 106 ft is the hypotenuse dist allowing for vertical dist estimated by me.

Oswald Shot ----------- hit at ------ fired at  ------ sound hit JFK at – Carcano = 2170 ft per sec.
1 --- 87 ft = 106 ft ----- Z113 ------ Z112.1 ---------- Z113.9 ----- camera runs at 18.3 frames per sec.
2 --- 184 ft = 197 ft---- Z218 ------- Z216.3 --------- Z219.6
3 --- 255 ft = 266 ft ---- Z313 -------- Z310.8 --------- Z315.2 -------- Oswald did not have a shot-3.
The time tween shot-1 & shot-2 is 104.2 frames, which is 5.7 sec. Holland reckoned that shot-1 was at Z106, which is an extra 7 frames, or 0.4 sec, which makes it 6.1 sec.
The time tween shot-2 & faux shot-3 is 94.5 frames, which is 5.2 sec.
Adding to 10.9 sec.

Here are the timings for Hickey's auto burst, based on there being 6 shots.
Hickey Shot ------------- hit at ------ fired at  ------ sound hit JFK at -------
6 ---- 26 ft---------------- Z313 -------- Z312.8 ---------- Z313.2 --- hit JFK in head & cracked windshield.
5 ---- AR15 = 3250 ft per sec------------ Z310.0 ---------- hit chrome trim on windshield.
4 ---- sound = 1100 ft per sec ----------- Z307.25 -------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
3 ---- probly 400 rpm= 6.67 rps --------- Z304.5 ---------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
2 ------------------------------------------- Z301.8 ----------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
1 ------------------------------------------- Z299.0 ---- probly hit Main St pavement & then kerb near Tague.
My calculation of Oswald's angles based on above is .....
shot-1 at Z113 is -34.8 deg. If at Holland's Z106 it is still -34.6 deg koz either way it is at the signals.
shot-2 at Z218 is -21.0 deg.
shot-3 at Z312 is -16.6 deg.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 24, 2023, 07:17:53 AM
I have changed my mind re what is a good diet.
Today 22Nov2023 i am going to start on the carnivore diet.
No fruit (i already did that), & no bread or biscuits etc (i already did that), & no sugar (already did that).
And today i start with no veggies.
So, no more potato fries (my favorite)(i have fries almost every day).
No more carrot peas cabbage onion silverbeet.
Lots of bacon smoked ham chicken (free range) fish (wild caught) smoked cod mussel (farm) corned beef steak sausages (all grass fed)(no grain fed), kangaroo, wallaby, eggs (free range), cheese, olive oil (no seed oils)(lard is ok).
I will have salami & cheese every day (evening really, ie dinner)(i never have breakfast)(& i almost never hav lunch).
Cant wait. Starts today, koz my fridge is finally empty. So i am going in to town to do my carnivore shopping.
There is sometimes some roadkill.
Today it is known that a carnivore diet cures epilepsy.
The guy who had a fit in Houston just before the motorcade possibly ate too much carb (sugar flour starchy veggies seed oils low fat foods processed foods), even in 1963.
Carnivore eliminates obesity, diabetes, dental cavities, heart disease, artery disease, fatty liver, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, Dementia, MS, auto immune diseases, bipolar, schizophrenia, depression, anxiety, infertility, cancer, prevents autism in children, etc etc.
It might even fix the BS meters of members here.

If on 22nov2023 an obese Oswald would have taken 2 minutes to get down the stairs, & they would have caught him sitting in the lavatory suffering with his irritable bowel.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 24, 2023, 07:43:27 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/28GtDB0y/edison-diet.jpg)


https://www.youtube.com/@lowcarbdownunder

https://www.youtube.com/@bart-kay/videos



Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 29, 2023, 04:15:06 AM
Patrolman Hargis was left of JFK & Co, Hargis says ……………turning left on Elm St & about 2 or 3 m down Elm St the first shot rang out……

bump
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 29, 2023, 10:50:26 PM
Shot-2 was at Z218. The headshot was at Z312, ie 94 Z frames later, ie 5.14  sec later (based on 18.3 fps).
If the gap between shot-1 & shot-2 equaled the gap between shot-2 & Z312 then shot-1 was 94 frames earlier, ie at pseudo Z124 (ie 9 frames before Zapruder's sequence starts at Z133).
If the gap between shot-1 & shot-2 was 50% longer than the following gap then shot-1 was 141 frames earlier, ie at pseudo Z077.
If the gap between shot-1 & shot-2 was 100% longer than the following gap then shot-1 was 188 frames earlier, ie at pseudo Z030.

However, not one member in the history of this forum has acknowledged even one atom of this simple truth.
But many members here reckon that the gapage was                       BANG........................................... BANG...................BANG.

If u insist on shot-2 being 4 frames later than Z218, ie at Z222, then Z124 becomes Z128, & Z077 becomes Z083, & Z030 becomes Z038.

Holland's estimate for shot-1 was Z105 or Z107 or somesuch, & i agree with Holland.
Z105 is 113 frames before Z218, which is 20.2% larger than the final gap of 94 frames.
Z105 is 117 frames before Z222, which is 25.6% larger than the final gap of 90 frames (if u insist on shot2 being at Z222 instead of my Z218).

So, Holland has copped a lot of flack on this forum for suggesting that shot-1 was as early as Z105.
But, Z105 only needs gap-1 to be 20.2% larger than gap-2 (or 25.6% larger if u insist on shot-2 being at Z222).

If members are happy with their claims that gap-2 was significantly smaller than gap-1 then members should be happy with Holland's Z105.
Hence gap-1 was 6.17 sec, & gap-2 was 5.14 sec, total 10.31 sec.

The silly estimate of say Z169 for shot-1 means that gap-1 is 49 Z frames (& gap-2 is 94 Z frames), which is           BANG........ BANG................... BANG.        Stupid.
Hence silly gap-1 was 2.68 sec, & gap-2 was 5.14 sec, & the stupid total 7.82 sec.

The above are based on when the shots landed, not when fired, & not when heard.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 30, 2023, 01:12:41 AM
Here is a Carcano jacket fragment from a ricochet test off pipe (Holland).
And some photos relating to other ricochet tests by Haag.
The Holland fragment reminds us of the 2 fragments found in the jfklimo (CE567 CE569).

(https://i.postimg.cc/QCcVNYXZ/ricochet-fragment-holland-test.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/bJqJvwS3/ricochet-haag-4-fragment.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/tgwk081q/ricochet-haag-3.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/xThWRp52/ricochet-haag-2.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/2yqZ75jr/ricochet-haag-1-FIG02.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/FzJ4xM22/ricochet-haag-0.jpg)

A Technical Investigation Pertaining to the First Shot Fired in the JFK Assassination
Frank S. DeRonja1, MS Engr & Max Holland2
1Forensic Metallurgy Associates, Springfield, VA, USA
2 Journalist & Author, Potomac, MD, USA
https://d7922adf-f499-4a26-96d4-8ab2d521fa35.usrfiles.com/ugd/d7922a_44c78e12584949128ebeda1d1a49f9c2.pdf
https://www.acsr.org/post/a-technical-investigation-pertaining-to-the-first-shot-fired-in-the-jfk-assassination
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 was at Z113.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 30, 2023, 01:24:52 AM
The ricochet of Oswald's shot-1 was offa the western side of the western guy rod, near the coupler/clamp.
There is also a female/female joiner on the eastern guy rod near the coupler/clamp.
The western guy rod might have had a similar joiner, in which case the ricochet might have been off that joiner.

A ricochet off the guy rod or joiner would give more fragmentation of the Carcano slug whilst producing a lesser ricochet angle, compared to a ricochet off 2" pipe.
The ricochet of shot-1 needed to have a very small ricochet angle, if the splatter of small lead bits were to hit jfk on the right top back of his head (seen in galea in xray).

In ricochet tests the remnant slug was almost always in one piece, ie as per the hole in the floor of the jfklimo, ie as per the photo of the hole taken during upgrading in Dec 1963 (shown earlier in this thread).

And, the brass jacket can naturally part into 2 pieces, koz the jacket was made in 2 pieces (fused together before receiving the lead).
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on December 19, 2023, 10:46:01 PM
1:25:21 long
Jerrol Custer Interviews with Vince Palamara and William Law 3/15/1998   Vince Palamara
19.6K subscribers   Subscribed   1,879 views  Feb 25, 2022
I am posting these for ZERO money (totally free) and for research purposes only. They are now posted elsewhere, a part of this has been released on a DVD and Blu Ray, it has been almost 24 years since this was done and closing in on 59 years since the assassination; enough is enough! This was the basis for the Jerrol Custer chapter in Willliam Law's outstanding IN THE EYE OF HISTORY. I had previously interviewed Custer with Harry Livingstone 11/22/91 which is documented in HIGH TREASON 2 and KILLING THE TRUTH (Tom Wilson, later on TMWKK, was also present).



Transcript
0:10
i hate to be materialistic about that i don't blame you a bit but you should look i've watched this time and time
0:16
again where people have taken advantage of you guys that's not going to happen
0:22
the honor that i'm getting from this the credentials i'm getting from this the hell of the money and i feel the same way even though this is bill's project
0:28
and he's the primary focus why's this all happen i'm honored to be here too you know i feel this is nice i feel like i mean you guys keep saying that to me
0:34
and i'm sitting here thinking jesus don't you're not saying i didn't do anything
0:39
you know i was i just did my job this is like this is like uh sitting
0:44
here this would be for me like talking to someone who had been in
0:50
attendance at lincoln's assassination yeah or he's old enough to have been there or it's like meeting one of the
0:56
beatles or something
1:07
yeah see you're even better than dealing plaza witnesses like a witness they didn't do anything you actually did something you were involved the x-rays
1:14
in the primary evidence you saw the body and those people can actually say i was just there you weren't there in the
1:19
comments oh that was so valuable if
1:34
let's start it officially because we're recording right now so one two three okay
1:41
um when were you uh alerted to go on duty
1:47
tomorrow this was between the hours of 6 30 pm to about 8 30 pm
1:54
we were lettered by the officer of the day he said that uh our services would be in
1:59
them needed in the morning to take an x-ray portable x-ray unit and numerous and i
2:05
do mean numerous cassettes that somebody of great importance was being brought to bethesda
2:12
then our services would be needed as post-mortem films what was your interaction with the
2:18
secret service agents there if any did you career in kellerman well siebert and
2:24
o'neal were literally up my nose they were attached to the hip
2:30
every place i went they went oh boy and she got to the point after the first set
2:35
of films that i had taken and headed up towards the see here's the thing the morgue
2:43
that we have the diagram here was in the basement
2:51
of the national naval medical center and the towers was up on the fourth floor where our
2:57
x-ray department so i had to get on an elevator i came out the door
3:02
here come down the hallway come around the corner go down in the
3:08
elevator went up to the main level i had to go down the main towards the
3:14
main rotunda and this is where i ran into jacqueline kennedy in the entourage that's right
3:19
because he said you had a handful of films i had a handful of films and uh o'neil was right in front of me he
3:26
stopped me as he saw them coming in and they never saw me but i saw them so he
3:32
stopped me and says stop i don't want you to run into the newspaper and you can see the the
3:37
flashes and going on when guys taking their the pictures of the kennedys
3:43
uh in fact i still remember the bloody suit that she had on
3:49
she hadn't had a chance to change right and they got onto the elevator which was
3:54
right as soon as you come in the main rotunda there's a main room here and it was just like a circular
4:02
hallway there were bank elevators that sat here on the left there was a hallway that went down the
4:10
dead center and down on the right here there were the executive offices like the commander-in-chief and
4:16
the national naval medical center and further down the hall is the emergency room
4:22
and then further down was the different offices and then one floor down was the cafeteria
4:29
and by the way in that 1988 video at that sylvia chase said now it's the cafeteria now where it used to be more
4:35
kind of if you remember that or yeah a lot of changes i understand there's a lot of trouble filming in the
4:41
uh bethesda they don't really even like people filming in there at all you know because it's a government facility yeah
4:47
yeah and if you know anything about government facilities you have to be checked upside
4:53
down and sideways and it's literally well i'm in the process of being cleared
5:00
now for a government job and i had to make a 12 page out of 12
5:06
page reference type application with all my relatives where they were
5:14
born and how old they were and the whole smear and then they go through and they make
5:20
sure that there's no i like in my college years i didn't belong to the uh sds student for
5:26
democratic society oh yeah remember that they called on so-called letterman oh
5:31
geez that was the frontrunners to the communist party oh my god absolutely
5:39
mccarthy now the city says mccarthyism oh i never forgot that oh man oh jeez so
5:45
did we cover did we cover how you came to be at the morgue yeah yes
5:51
uh it uh that i had taken the duty for one of my cohorts that it was his
5:57
anniversary and he wanted to surprise his wife and like i said i was 22 year old single
6:02
man that's four and a half hours from home i lived in a barracks
6:08
an extra duty to me was nothing duty there would you come in
6:13
looked around any necessary things you tend to be taking you took uh you carried a a beeper or you let the
6:21
officer today know where you were if they needed you for anything they called you and you slept over the barrens
6:30
well this is the question i was just thinking of tucson maybe they will cover something we were talking before
6:35
exactly how many skull fragments came in that night do you remember there's a little bit of controversy the exact number
6:40
it's kind of hard to remember but if i'm not mistaken from the next day
6:46
there was at least four that i can remember right off the top of my head okay at least four
6:56
because there were four fragments skull fragments and there was at least one two
7:03
three three small bullet fragments one
7:10
fragment about the size of my little baby finger the top half of it
7:15
and this is where i had to uh tape them to the the bond frame yeah
7:22
let's talk a little about the ebersall bust of kennedy uh let me go with a little detail about that yeah i don't
7:28
know who dr ebersol was blowing smoke up but he come in that one day and he said
7:33
that um i need you to take uh to do a special duty i have uh skull fragments here and i
7:41
have bullet fragments i want you to tape them to the bullet fragments to the skull
7:47
fragments and take x-rays out of different densities this is for abbastic kennedy
7:53
just look down again when you're in the service you don't question what your
8:00
an officer tells you to do you do it but what were the thoughts in your head when this fella came to you
8:06
and said we're making a bus to kennedy and i want you to take these fragments to pieces of scoldedness well let me put
8:12
it this way i can't say it on camera yeah okay okay i'll get you volumes
8:18
yeah i want you to do me a favor sure i'd like you to put
8:23
tell me where the wound in the head was located yeah the best of your recollection the wound in the head
8:29
yeah the best of my recollection it was in the frontal sinus on the right hand side just above the orbit
8:37
right about here okay now you claim that that's the entry wound that's the entrance okay how about the exit what
8:42
would you do the excellent one it's hard to tell because i one did not visualize it because the
8:49
body was constantly kept on its back from the main reason
8:56
you did not want to move the body as much as possible because i felt every
9:01
time i moved the body i changed the contour of the head so therefore that's why i took the
9:08
lateral films first then i took the ap film
9:15
then i took a tangential film a 10 general film is like
9:20
your you're laying the anatomical position again on the head
9:25
straight you have your defect while it's over here on the right hand
9:31
side you bring the film off to the side and you come in with an angle
9:37
just to show the gaping hole by the way those are missing too those are missing from there yes they are but
9:43
i remember previously you did say that the back of the head appeared to be gone there was no scalp there as far
9:50
here's where a lot of researchers screw up okay okay we're here to correct all that
9:56
not the back of the head okay let me get okay
10:09
okay now this is just a lateral picture now this isn't the correct side right okay
10:17
here's the back of the head right it's considered it called the occipital
10:22
region the defect
10:28
frontal temporal region now when you have that body
10:35
laying like that everybody points it and said that's the back of the head
10:40
and that's exactly what they were doing even a pathologist at night that's the
10:46
back of the head no that's not the back of that that's the top of that right okay now explain to me there's
10:53
been a lot of controversy and this is why some researchers point to forgery
10:59
that the back of his head was blown out if the back of his head was blown out why can he rest his head on that
11:05
that piece because the back of the head wasn't blown up this
11:11
was still intact and may not have been perfectly intact there was fractures in
11:18
there of course with all the destruction but this is the only region
11:24
if the back of the head was gone there would be nothing here to hold the head up but there was this would have been all
11:31
inside but there was a large defect back back there was a defect from here
11:38
to here only this was all that was that was ripped
11:45
torn it's just something an indian come in and scalped them
11:50
oh boy all right literally okay but so but it still jibes with the notion that
11:55
you saw the frontal entry wound and you still think that was an exit of some sort even if it wasn't technically back here it still made sense with
12:03
remember the trajectory 40 to 45 degrees okay okay you're going
12:12
in like this okay okay
12:17
are you blowing out the back of the head no not again okay frontal temporal region that's what's
12:24
being destroyed okay i showed you on the ap ap uh x-ray that explains all the
12:30
fractures are emanating from the front going towards the back
12:36
this is what i brought out in my book i share i told i answered many of those
12:42
questions there was at least a dozen if not more questions that i answered
12:49
in the book stating what actually is true and what actually is false
12:56
there's something else i'm going to bring out that it's going to come out later on a little
13:01
tidbit okay i had a special marker that i had that night
13:07
that i placed in all the films it wasn't visualized on any of the films that you had
13:13
it was visualized on the films that were in the archives
13:18
it showed positioning depth
13:25
and also showed what side wow and you're going to bring this out later
13:31
i'll bring this up later in the next book okay all right enough
13:37
which i like i reiterated again i'll make sure that you'll be the first one to know
13:42
i appreciate it's fair yeah now uh when you saw the body were there
13:47
any chest marks puncture wounds there was a bruising
13:53
on the thoracic pleural thoracic area
14:00
now i'm talking about a bruising is slight discoloration now at that time i did not notice
14:08
any particular openings all i saw was
14:14
yes i did i'll read take that back when we lifted them up to take
14:20
the skull films that's when a fragment fell out of the back of them
14:26
let's get a picture of that i believe we have one somewhere it should be right here
14:33
and there's also been a great deal of controversy about the back one and i'd like i'd like to clear that
14:42
up here we go here it is right here all right
14:50
they're saying let's make this one who gets it they were saying this is a back one
14:55
and this is a one right
15:01
that was the one this was not alone okay what was that
15:06
a piece of blood piece of wood one thing i've always wondered about maybe you can help me clear it up a
15:12
little bit the ruler that this person i don't know who these hands belong to in this film we're
15:18
assuming is hume's in boston but there's so much controversy about it's been forged and you know to me that
15:26
ruler doesn't mark anything it's just kind of on his back
15:33
now i'm surprising this now you tell me if it seems far-fetched
15:43
i'm looking for one particular film here here it is
15:48
what's that the throat line where's it located
15:53
look at the well okay just look for a second don't don't
15:59
try to think anything into it here's the neck right
16:05
here's the scapulas the scapulas run here
16:11
and here don't look at the ruler per se
16:16
what if i were to take the ruler and go like this
16:22
and remember an angling up
16:28
would that almost line up with that it would appear to if that's what we're looking at
16:35
if it's angled up i've never thought of before yeah yes
16:40
this comes from experience yeah you would know what i said
16:46
i'm not saying this is an exit wound i'm not saying it's an entrance one i'm just
16:52
from what i see here and what i see here
16:57
kind of clicks well there's gotta be a reason for it right
17:03
you gotta remember right down through here is the toughest part of the spine with
17:09
your thoracic spine so that'll stop a fragmented bullet
17:16
specifically if it's from a distance now
17:22
while we're on photos again i've always wondered there have been people that have said this is an entrance wound
17:28
this little fleck here did you see anything like this and there again you gotta remember
17:36
when i was there the body was never turned like this okay
17:42
the body was always on its back basically
17:48
this is what i couldn't understand whenever
17:53
you go in and take films specifically on a forensic case you do not move the body
18:03
you move it as little as possible because you can always destroy evidence
18:12
you change positions of bone you change position to the neck you
18:18
change everything [Music] doing this
18:24
they felt now we can play now and truthfully
18:30
that's what they're doing basically just lifting him up and
18:35
not really doing anything specific just getting pictures of it right but the bottom line is you do not believe that's
18:43
how about up here do you see this here the high select committee claimed that that was an entrance room there no okay
18:50
i don't believe that yeah okay and i can't remember who did the drawings when the house select committee used drawings
18:55
or maybe it was out of dots yeah this went from being a possible speck of blood to having a bullet entrance wound
19:03
in the head here it is again experts
19:08
surmising they're not thinking of the simplest thing
19:14
they're not they weren't there they didn't see you realize how filthy
19:20
excuse me i shouldn't say it that way because the man was the president of the united states
19:26
but the condition of the body it was a mess
19:31
there was brain fragments clots everywhere you touched them i mean
19:37
you were totally bloody and to say
19:42
well this is a bullet fragment and this is a scroll primer and this is this you can't say that
19:49
you'd have to go in and clean that area
19:55
have you ever watched an autopsy literally myself now
20:01
a lot of times when they think that there's a hole there
20:06
they'll go in and they'll remove that whole area and clean it up
20:13
okay and then there's no supposition at all it's right there
20:18
this is what the government banked on and we're talking about the back of the
20:24
head yeah as far as they have been on the experts looking in and saying oh that looks like a bullet
20:31
that can't be a fragment that can't be this why can't it
20:37
how about how about the notion that was brought out about 10 years ago it's still popular today did that some sort
20:42
of mad insertion because you can see how this is wet in a different texture than down here do you put any stock in that
20:47
or well and there again i have nothing to do with the films oh sure
20:54
all i can say i see what you're saying it looks like this was all brushed in
21:01
yes could be no i mean i don't know i see there's a lot of people because of this
21:07
picture that say they're holding up a flap of skin here
21:12
yeah with the hand right here yeah now in your opinion based on what you saw yes nothing's impossible yes it is
21:19
okay so you're saying that that is possible that is possible you know who would be perfect for this
21:25
if you could talk them into it this is floyd rabies
21:31
i'm in the process of contacting mr reed if you can talk him into this you know some of his
21:37
roles of film disappeared did he tell you which ones
21:42
uh he didn't mention it but some of his his roles have disappeared because there was many times when um
21:50
it finished a role of film the fbi government came out of the tank after he rolled it up wow
21:55
there was a lot of that in fact the first time i went up to or developed my x-rays
22:02
i'm not sure if it was seabird or nail there's one of the two of them wanted to walk into the dark room with me and i just went no there's where you stop
22:10
well i have to see what you're doing i said no you know you stay out there and i close the door
22:17
that's when i took the other set of films out and put them in the box let's talk about those for a minute when
22:23
you were going with an arm loaded films there's been
22:29
speculation or i've read somewhere that you took extra sets of x-rays
22:34
well not extra sets i double loaded and what does double loaded mean i'm not
22:40
putting two films in you're going to remember an x-ray cassette has two screens
22:46
and they're activated screens when when the x-ray goes through them
22:53
they lighten up the fluorescent just like your watch and you get an image on there and that
22:59
image is placed on the film so if your film is a little bit too dark
23:07
the one film is dark the one film is just right okay i understand so what did you do with these
23:14
i ran one film and put the other film in the lake book there was a process that we had was
23:20
called an old peco unit where it was like a table where you ran your film in and underneath there was a
23:26
light proof box you take one put it in put one in the box but you fill that one up put it over
23:32
there same thing and i went through each film that i took
23:37
and after everything was over and done that evening i came back and ran the film those were all good too i put them
23:43
in one of the mailing folders tied them up and hit them on the us and then insignia
23:51
in the department and kept them there for the longest time how long do you think they were there
23:57
undiscovered a couple months
24:03
and and what happened to these folks i destroyed them why'd you do that
24:08
because of the gag order that i had signed i didn't destroy them right away
24:15
after i thought on it and pondered on it a little bit and thought well if these films would happen to the
24:21
surface along the line here somewhere they're going to trace them back to me and guess
24:26
whose body's going to wind up in jail so eventually i destroyed them i thought
24:32
it wasn't worthy never thought never thought that later on down the road
24:39
that they could have been worth millions or they could have solved the whole problem
24:46
yeah because of the missing x-rays missing materials and things that could resolve but i also could be dead
24:53
yeah that's true too given given what you know given the fact that we all know that
24:59
there's been several deaths over the years some unexplainable things have happened to a
25:04
lot of people that have a lot to do with this case even today 34 years later going on 35 do
25:10
you have any fear if i were to say no i'd be lying
25:18
i still have a little bit there's still people around that don't want to be implicated
25:27
who come up with a one bullet theory i need i say more that's it
25:32
who come on bullets you have to be
25:39
somebody to stand there and blow smoke up your nose one bullet come on that bullet had to do
25:45
a fantastic dance yes
25:51
was there a george bakeman present do you remember that name his name has been tossed
25:57
you know what i think it was truthfully there was so much mass confusion going on
26:03
uh the two fbi agents were going around asking different names
26:08
these guys were twisted one way and twisted another and i think it was just
26:16
a mistake on their part one of the one of the witnesses that i
26:22
talked to one of your colleagues has told me that he felt during the
26:27
autopsy that the body had been gotten to before it ever came into the moor
26:33
what's your opinion on that well there again
26:39
all i can do is i can surmise to the fact that that's a good possibility because
26:45
when i was notified that the body was coming
26:50
in i was told that the body was coming from walter reed
26:56
all right you were told by the officer of the day who was i can't remember his
27:02
name right off the top of my head wasn't smoky stover what was his name
27:07
smokey stover no this was just a uh either a jg or and
27:14
that's a lovely little and this person told you personally that my body was coming from walter reed uh
27:22
and i feel that he told me something he shouldn't have because he was later reprimanded for it
27:30
now stop and think where's walter reed
27:35
hospital alexandria right but also it's in alexandria
27:42
three initials did i say more
27:48
that's okay that's great i think it speaks volumes in itself yes so
27:54
let's go to the let's go back to the more for a second i want a little more of the atmosphere
28:00
of of the morgue i've been told by other people that were there again your
28:06
colleagues that that i've had people say was absolute pandemonium
28:11
would you say that's true would you say oh absolutely there was hollering and scramming
28:19
and orders being given and [Music] different people saying this and
28:25
different people saying that was there was there anybody in charge that you know did anybody
28:31
assume charge absolutely it was quite evident throughout the evening
28:37
and who was that jfk's personal physician so you're saying dr berkley dr george
28:43
berkeley yeah was basically because he was also an admiral too foreign
28:50
absolutely positively said the kennedy family wouldn't want that
28:56
done and i don't think you should follow that line baloney
29:01
it's a forensic pathology autopsy
29:06
you're looking for evidence you have to do that to the body you have to do it
29:12
to find out what happened and i'll bring this up as a little antidote
29:20
many times i when we're taking the different x-rays i brought certain things to uh
29:27
dr abersol's attention and i was told to shut up
29:32
do my own job my own business that that's his job let me do my job you
29:38
do your job that's fine and i walked away
29:43
is there anybody that you can recall specifically being being in the morgue that night
29:53
the only one i'm really
29:59
it has to be kennedy's physician that's the only one because he's stuck on
30:05
i mean he was he wasn't quiet at all he even made comments about everything he didn't seem
30:12
to be in any kind of shock or loss or mourning or no he seemed like he was controlling everything
30:19
every little step along every step along the way and this is one thing that i couldn't
30:24
get over i ever saw brought it out in his deposition to do when he was asked by the medical
30:31
committee was there anybody in control that night dictating to you what you couldn't do
30:36
and what you couldn't do oh absolutely not there was nobody in control that was baloney
30:42
it was so eminent everybody knew who was in control what uh
30:49
boswell what humes what was their demeanor while this was going on they did what they were told to do
30:56
and that was it do you feel that there was any kind of little scenario uh going on and that they were going too
31:02
far they were just following along trying not to make waves for for
31:08
berkeley absolutely and when they stepped over the line they
31:13
were smacked so you don't feel that they hid anything they just
31:18
followed along and did what they were told to do they did what they told to do
31:25
but it's kind of funny though later on hume's destroying his notes yes why did
31:33
he keep such detailed notes
31:38
he did it for a reason humes was a politician humes knew how to manipulate things
31:45
humes was a career person
31:51
he knew how to protect humes's back
31:57
but evidently somebody got to him higher and more powerful than he thought
32:04
and he destroyed his nerves so he had to be hiding something
32:12
common sense will tell you that yeah i think that's a good place to stop well just one more thing i just think one
32:18
more thing we'll be really getting over here let's take a couple minutes um go ahead we got 15 tomorrow yeah and
32:23
then i'll be good i just thought of a couple more things for sure about uh what's your take on the notion
32:30
about a 1500 gram brain you know the weight of the brain being like basically
32:36
above average what's your take on that well see you're delving into something that's not my expertise i really
32:43
can't go in and say oh yeah you're right there or no you're
32:49
wrong there i want this to be the utmost
32:54
truth because what i know from experience
33:00
and from the knowledge that i've picked up and i really don't know anything about
33:05
that you know i never saw the brain i didn't know any weight shape or form i knew
33:11
they were weighing particular different organs and stuff
33:17
but that's the limit that it goes okay when going back to when they first brought
33:23
the brought the cough on them and they and they took the lid off of the coffin and again we're talking about
33:30
uh not an ornate coffin lid but a cheaply made uh coffin
33:36
when they took the lid off what what do you recall that the body was wrapped in was the body in anything
33:44
i'm asking this because there's been controversy about whether the body was in a body bag or not do you remember the
33:50
body being true what struck me funny the body was totally naked totally totally there was no clothes on
33:57
it at all the only thing that i can possibly remember and honestly saying
34:04
that really stuck up was the head was completely covered
34:09
down to the neck and there was a sheet wrapped around and i could see the sheet through the
34:14
through the clear whatever it was i won't say it was plastic and i don't really remember
34:20
honestly and i thought well my god the head must be really in a disarray if they have
34:26
something like that on it do you remember if it was if it was a zippable cover did it did it runs it but you
34:32
don't remember you can't remember that did you recognize president kennedy right away was there like no question about it well as soon as uh they took
34:39
the camera off i recognized him right away yeah what i just from a human interesting point what did that feel
34:44
like just knowing that this was the main see the bad part about it is that i had met the man prior
34:51
oh well you know he had bad he had a bad back yes and i had taken some x-rays on his
34:57
back and i talked to him you had yeah i never you met him while he was alive live right
35:03
and it was just an average joe how did how did he strike you
35:08
just like i said an average person it wasn't i'm the president of the united states johnson
35:15
typical politician get away from me son kennedy wasn't that way he walked up
35:22
shook my hand and what's your name and i told him i said where you from and
35:27
i told him said how long have you been there and i told him and
35:32
he says do you have any girlfriends
35:38
then i told him and we had a heck of a conversation
35:44
but he did have an extremely bad back he did yes and that was a war injury
35:51
did you you took the x-rays of his back right that must have been extra like more poignant to see well it kind of
35:59
shocked me i had to look at him twice because
36:05
there was a deformity he didn't actually look the way he normally look
36:12
and you have to remember it's due to postmortem rigor mortis bloating
36:18
blood um bloating but he's going to look at his neck
36:23
and see how bloated the neck is due to all that trauma you can see this right now
36:29
yeah there is a picture the again the stare death photo
36:35
where there's been some speculation that is this pretty much what he looked like
36:42
would you say that that is kennedy there's been speculation throughout the
36:48
community of researchers let me say something if you look at it look at his forehand here
36:55
look at how this all seems to invent
37:02
here again you gotta remember now the mortician was there
37:10
he had putty and wax you can't see any holes here
37:16
look how thick that looks then you think that's because the mortician at this point when this
37:23
picture started started his job right well let's see that that clears up a lot because i've
37:28
never heard of that before i didn't know that the mortician had already been there and started oh yeah as soon as i
37:35
walked away from the body to the galler's fueling people yeah yeah he was right there in fact
37:41
like i'd stand there with two coffins there one that they brought them in on one
37:46
they put them in and transported them to the car to the funeral so he wasn't the same prophet so you did
37:54
so basically in the morgue that night you did see two coffins right there was the ornate coffin right and there was
38:00
the so-called cheap shipping cast right and you saw both of those right here's one thing that a lot of the researchers
38:06
keep bringing up well was there another body in there that was supposed to be baloney
38:12
no why would they put another body in it this is the president of the united
38:18
states security was so tight
38:23
in fact when every time we came up through a few i'm not sure where it's at but
38:30
there's a picture of me coming up the hall that was taken through a keyhole i see
38:37
you in ed reed right yeah right it was taking the right video it was a special adapt that was placed on a camera and
38:44
taken through a keyhole well you saw the guards all over the place nobody was
38:49
logged in and every time i literally every time i left the morgue
38:55
i had either seibert or o'neill with me so they they stayed pretty much close to you
39:00
like one was here and one was there wow they didn't leave you they followed you followed me i think if i went to the
39:07
john they would have followed me did it i'm going to ask this simply so we can clear it up for a lot of people i know i
39:12
keep harping on this but this is basically how kennedy looked right the this is not oh you know a lot
39:19
has been made because you can't see pores in his skin in this photograph right and and that they say that
39:26
there have been writers that have written that this is a composite you know why you can't see of course why i
39:32
can tell you right now just look at it look at all this
39:38
they use heavy lashes on it and they burnt the pores out there's no
39:44
detail and that's basically because of crime that's basically this flash let me show you something else
39:51
what do you think that is i don't know yeah what is that i've heard from paul o'connor that that's a
39:57
wooden structure that was not in the mark that night he he said that that would have been
40:02
outside the front door
40:08
that is like a lock
40:14
there is a screw there there's a wheel there and there's a wheel over here
40:21
it's an extra machine let's point it towards the camera real well so that we can that because
40:28
it's an action machine there's a box to hold the films
40:34
you know why you know it's an extremely shame because i put it you're the one that put it there right wow
40:40
my god that's amazing but this whole warship
40:46
and you ask any photographer if you get too close with too
40:51
strong of a flash you'll get no skin detail at all none all right
40:58
do you want skin detail when you see wax up here
41:04
no think in a three-dimensional plane
41:10
wow yeah it's something i would never have thought about some of them was yeah but i thought about it
41:16
see what i'm saying yeah what do you see what you're saying
41:22
look here see the discoloration
41:27
well now that you mentioned it yes i've looked at this photograph hundreds of times not thousands oh yeah why do you
41:32
think you have that discoloration i don't know tell me
41:38
remember i showed you the wound
41:43
you're one little picture that you had right is it that's just blood in the tissue
41:50
all right here
41:55
turn your film exactly like that see it here we go
42:06
yes there is there well
42:12
all right now i understand and you're saying by the way you're saying this is missing this x-ray
42:18
it's not in the archives i'm going to tell you that right now and basically basically for the audience what what is
42:24
this picture this is an area that i took of that particular hole
42:33
just to prove that it was where the bullet had went through and i proved it
42:39
and i shut this is what i showed every song and this is where he told me do your job that's my job to interpret
42:50
all right you see that yeah sounds good makes a lot of sense yeah yeah thanks a lot i told you i'll blow
42:55
your socks off tonight i'm telling you something else this is detailed no one's ever gone into you know no this is this
43:01
is wonderful i just got one last question i think not close somebody come to blow on the whole thing
43:10
oh yeah yeah how about this this picture right here what's this for
43:15
this right here you want blood on you is that basically what that's for okay okay okay
43:24
oh wait no no no no i take that back i take that back
43:29
[Music] look at the arms there's an arm here okay there's a shirt sleeve here oh
43:34
there's an iron here okay that's his his grains right because they they had
43:40
him on his back and they okay they turned him up so that is the proper orientation for this photo not like this
43:46
no not at all they they as i understand it they took him and raised him up off the top
43:52
turning them toward them and that's why it's so hard that's part of his arm right there there's a part of his arm
43:57
there that's why it's so hard to to distinguish in these phones because they didn't go point by point they did
44:05
things that you would normally not do i mean
44:11
they were told what they couldn't do so they they got to the point like anybody you get disgusted
44:18
and then you just put your ties and play yeah so
44:24
that's what they're doing you don't think this was any attempt at all to to fabricate or alter or make it so that
44:30
that people couldn't understand that they just got tired of what was going on being told what to do not allowed to do
44:35
their jobs and so that's why these autopsy photographs come out the way they have right
44:41
that's my opinion this one looks like this one this one
44:47
is very important tell us why because it's missing
44:53
and again what does it show it shows bullet hole where a bullet hole
44:59
shouldn't be and they kept saying oh no that's not a
45:04
bull at all and you can see fragmentation of the bone here
45:10
if this was better quality you would also see bullet fragments throughout it this is
45:16
all kind of blurred there's no detail whatsoever well what part of the
45:22
for the audience again what part of the body are we looking at cervical spine cervical spine lower cervical spine this
45:29
is where it would be c 7667
45:36
that's just from the neck down what that what what are we looking at the lower
45:43
back there are seven cervical vertebrae there are 12 thoracic vertebrae
45:50
so this two vertebrae here are six and seven
45:55
they're two above t1 okay okay all right
46:01
right here alone would have paralyzed him okay
46:07
that was never brought up okay okay so you're saying in one
46:14
respect you would have survived the throat wound but as far as that goes he probably would have been
46:19
he would have been like fdr so to speak as far as wow now we've seen how he's um how he's when
46:27
he comes out from the road he's just like this yeah like clocks like that now that's called the
46:33
it's been uh the allegation is yeah that that's the thor burn
46:38
position yeah and and his arms went up like this do you feel that there's any possibility of that because of that one
46:45
that that the nerves went like this and that's why you don't see him grabbing his throat a lot of people say that he
46:50
grabs you he didn't grab his throat his fists come up he goes i guess his arms are up like this in a protective
46:57
almost football stance like all right let me show you something i don't want a mark right now
47:03
uh how you have your cervical spine
47:08
this is very you have your phosphate here for us here
47:15
you have a spinal cord coming through plus you have nerves
47:21
that come out here just like tree trunks when you hit the spinal cord
47:28
you short circuit everything and that brings everything up so let's let's show that
47:34
to the camera okay this is the drone right and so your tendency to bring up
47:41
so so basically the shock from the bullet made it like this right but not necessarily in the forward position
47:48
where it would well i can't attest to it right i know this is opinion but but you do
47:55
know you are in the medical field right and the nerves will make you do that definitely okay
48:02
good enough okay jesus i think we covered quite a bit yeah all right all right very good okay
48:08
let's wrap the camera up sounds good and we'll oh it's just going to be long
48:14
so what it is very good we can make a double tape
48:20
i figure it's at least three hours long now i'm sorry
48:26
well we took little breaks but this is this has been good
48:34
very happy about this okay very good i got this in the shot okay i'll tell you what um
48:41
one two three go tell you what jerry tell us a little bit about this picture i this is a picture of myself from
48:47
william reed who was a student that night in november of 63. this was taken
48:54
during uh the first trip back to the x-ray department
48:59
by a reporter that had a special lens attachment that shot through a keyhole
49:06
you can see myself in reed coming down the hall and you'll see the heads of a few of the
49:12
guards there was a marine guard there was a navy garden an army guard it was there
49:17
also um security was pretty tight that evening
49:22
so no reporters were actually allowed in and around the moor
49:28
area there anything else you need to know no that's about it i guess we can uh
49:34
start whenever you're ready you want the next picture uh yeah maybe that would be good this is the second photo from life
49:41
tell us a little bit about this picture i this is the same
49:47
the same people in the picture uh in fact
49:52
if you'll notice that was the officer of the day that informed me
49:59
that uh jfk was coming in from walter reed i do not know we still remember what the
50:05
man's name was but i'm sure that that can be found on quite easily and what night were these taken on
50:12
the night of the morning uh the night of the uh autopsy so this was taken on
50:17
november 22 19 november 22 1963.
50:24
okay very good we got it yes have we stopped the camera now um
50:30
it doesn't matter this could be edited so we can just start you know questions and stuff well now let's
50:35
get it off the picture now and so that we can all get in the frame again yeah i did i got it ready oh okay
50:41
while i'm sitting down i'll be up here you can get out there oh yeah
50:48
here we go okay we need to make sure i'm not blocking that he is the main subject no no he is
50:54
he's he's we're gonna he's he's main in there that's good questions
51:01
now let's uh let's start for the timing sequence of when
51:07
just to clarify a little bit about the point where you had x-rays in
51:12
your arms and you were going down the hallway and you saw jacqueline kennedy i'll let you
51:18
tell it in your own words i'd like to have more on that
51:24
all right uh we had i'm not sure it was seibert or o'neill but one of the two of the fbi agents were with us at the time
51:32
they happened to stop us just before we came into the rotunda
51:37
and we saw the entourage of jacqueline kennedy bobby kennedy was there
51:42
and were encircled with uh newspapermen and they were taking pictures in fact a little tidbit for yourself is
51:50
that during that time also dennis david
51:55
was up on the second floor looking out the window and witnessed
52:02
the entourage calling in and he also knew at the same time
52:07
that the body was in the morgue so he realized there were two puffins
52:14
he's told me that yes he's personally told me that what was your feelings when
52:20
you came out of there with an arm load of x-rays and and you see jacqueline kennedy
52:26
coming in the front door it sort of surprised me in effect and i
52:32
knew in fact if you were to see my appearance at that time
52:39
my white smock that i had on that was in the pictures was bloody
52:45
and i had to literally destroy it so i was covered with blood
52:51
and i had to clean the x-rays off when i got back up to the department
52:57
so she would have known had to have known or surmised
53:02
that i was doing something oh truthfully i don't think she knew
53:08
that the body was there you don't no i think she thought the body was with her
53:15
at that time so the body had to be separated from her at one time or another
53:21
beyond her knowing what was going on
53:26
tell you what um i want to ask you do you think the body was tampered with in any fashion
53:34
i'm not i know this is opinion but but you are a medical person
53:41
let's speculate okay let's put it this way let's put it this way
53:47
with as much stuff as much cover-up as much influence
53:55
there was pressure that was on that night i wouldn't put her to pass them
54:06
i had an inexperienced radiologist
54:12
they told them to look for bullets that went in and didn't come on
54:19
and a forensic pathologist would look at that person and say you're crazy
54:25
we're looking for tracking entrance exits degree
54:30
of inclination they have two administrative
54:37
pathologists that hadn't done autopsies in umpteen years
54:44
all they did was process the paperwork
54:49
and they've never done a forensic autopsy
54:54
they had an influencing force in the gallery
55:00
that literally guided the autopsy throughout the evening
55:08
they had two two fbi agents
55:14
that created their own little pandemonium by
55:20
questioning people that night well now let's back up a little when you say that there was an influence in the gallery
55:27
are you talking about berkeley are you talking about someone else let's clarify that a little bit well let's
55:33
just put it this way i'm talking about jfk's personal physician and he let it
55:38
known be known that night i am jfk's personal physician
55:46
you will listen to what i say you will do what i say
55:53
okay and on the next point um continue with what you were going to say
55:59
about the the secret service agents did you say fbi no their wire secret service there
56:07
were you familiar with them did they really no they are they didn't quite
56:12
get involved with us they protect pretty much with the joint chiefs and uh but they were they there in the game i seem
56:18
to remember seeing the other two gentlemen there also but i know for a fact
56:24
that seibert and me over there because they were attached to my hip okay
56:29
they were literally how can i say uh
56:35
delegated to stay with me what was their what was their demeanor they filed a report
56:42
where they wrote surgery of the head area and there's been speculation that they
56:47
wrote that because they heard it from a doctor that was that was there at the autopsy all right now here's the thing
56:54
you have to remember these two gentlemen are laymen
57:00
when an autopsy is performed surgery of the wounds are performed
57:09
so there's a possibility they could have heard it from boswell or humes
57:14
or i think at that time because he arrived later on and he was more
57:20
aggressive we're talking about think now right he was more aggressive
57:25
in his mannerisms and procedure than boswell and humes boswell
57:33
and humes were like puppets did he seem to be frustrated by
57:38
by being told no you can't do this or you shouldn't do that or only take this so
57:43
far um that's kind of difficult to remember because
57:50
he did what he was told and if he was frustrated he kind of hit it
57:56
so he just basically went along like he went along humes he didn't he didn't put up a bus
58:02
i i want to get to to how they must have been all of you must have been under extreme pressure oh we were
58:09
being watched constantly everybody watched us there was different times when
58:16
i literally had to scream at people to move in that close
58:23
area you're taking x-rays which are you have a machine
58:29
producing ionizing radiation and you have to be
58:34
within a distance of six feet to be within a safe area
58:41
just to give you a for instance if you would go today have a barium enema
58:48
you would actually be sterile for six months a lot of people don't know that
58:54
really stability for six months
59:01
now this is what i can get a little technical here but this is with an 18 inch
59:07
focal film distance on the tube itself or target film
59:13
distance let's put it down where you have the anode which is like a little wire and then you have a tungsten target
59:19
and this is fires electrons across and this is what produces the
59:25
radiation okay i understand and this is the older
59:33
floral tubes so this would coincide with that time in 63 right
59:38
now you were you were there
59:44
you know about the events of that night
59:50
let's turn the camera off for a minute because i i let's just let it run i forgot the question i was going to ask
59:57
i have something go you fill it in okay um are you aware the allegations of uh
1:00:03
was it i don't know it was an admiral or captain david osborne about the bullet falling out of the body
1:00:08
during the autopsy i guess when they lifted them up did you see a whole bullet or a fragment
1:00:13
that would fall out of prison well i wouldn't call it a fragment i'd say it was pretty sized
1:00:20
a real lord right because it created such a fuss they ran over with a set of forceps
1:00:27
forceps are like a pair of scissors but they're flattened on the end so they could grab
1:00:32
and then grabbed it picked it up and put it in a little basin of water now now this is
1:00:39
this the the bullet now you when you were doing the x-rays and and you had him on the table and
1:00:45
moving him around didn't you tell me at some point in some of our earlier conversations
1:00:51
that a bullet fragment fell out of the president this was
1:00:57
this was the time that they found that okay and what happened what was their demeanor
1:01:02
what was what happened when that bullet fragment fell out the i called
1:01:08
one of the surgeons or one of the pathologists sermons said hey we have a bullet here
1:01:13
as soon as they heard that they come down off of the uh raised platform and ran over and then they
1:01:20
picked it up then siebert and neil also come over and said well we want that that's
1:01:26
because they have a receipt for a missile a lot of times people think it's semantics it wasn't a friend so you're saying it wasn't a whole bullet it was a
1:01:33
sizeable fragment of it was well let's
1:01:38
see you you're beginning in semantics here about sizable uh
1:01:44
it was distinguishable enough to know it was a bullet okay what but it wasn't complete because
1:01:51
there was some fragmentation some area of destruction on the bullet just for clarification what area of the body did
1:01:58
it fall out that was the upper thoracic the upper back okay so so it fell out it
1:02:04
literally fell out of the back room right all right well now the single bullet theory
1:02:11
would have us believe that the bullet went in came out his throat
1:02:17
hit conley in the in the right armpit came out broke his left wrist and they
1:02:23
cut the radial nerve and went into his leg so if you're telling us
1:02:28
that that the bullet fragment fell out of the back that blows the single bullet theory to
1:02:33
hell right there right and also the fact it was too low on the back to exit the neck you know as far as the right to
1:02:40
left trajectory vertical on horizontal too and you're absolutely certain
1:02:45
this bullet fragment fell out of the back absolutely the back moved itself out of the bathroom we lifted them up
1:02:51
man boom and that's where it come on that's corroboration for david osborne too
1:02:56
yeah that would explain missile received from siebert and o'neal right that's something that that i've wanted they
1:03:02
documented everything that happened that evening
1:03:07
okay this will be you this is a break hello
1:03:16
you break we'll pick it up with with james right okay okay
1:03:24
yeah am i am i all right yes i'm not blocking you're fine he's the vocal
1:03:31
okay one two go
1:03:36
you want me to bring in the bud uh mr jenkins are you finished with uh
1:03:41
we're talking about yes uh just in fact in everything that occurred that night
1:03:47
uh siebert and o'neill documented everything somebody got up and left they documented
1:03:52
it so they were there documenting everything everything now to my
1:03:58
understanding the log book there was a log book that is normally kept of people that go in and out
1:04:04
of of the area is that correct right now as i understand it
1:04:10
that's missing it's gone and has been missing since that night correct if paul connor memorized the number remember
1:04:16
that is correct and he could do it from memory right yeah it was gone it's totally disappeared what do you feel about that
1:04:23
that's part of the up they don't want people to know this is why
1:04:28
the chief was taken care of literally he actually had photographic evidence
1:04:36
they didn't want to be they didn't want out and by the chief who are you talking about chief mitchell
1:04:42
now i know we went into chief pitzer um a little bit last night
1:04:48
and maybe we've covered him enough but
1:04:53
dennis david who who was pitzer he was
1:04:58
pitcher was a mentor to dennis david and they were and they were basically best friends right
1:05:04
i've been told by him that that that he helped edit film
1:05:09
correct that night um and there's been no cooperation from that
1:05:14
uh for that um except that you you've said that you you saw him you do remember him
1:05:21
absolutely filming right and he dennis david also told me
1:05:28
that he saw pictures of a wound in the side of the president's head a small
1:05:34
bullet wound now you're going to remember something dennis david
1:05:40
is a layman his anatomy sometimes can be a little evil not to be
1:05:46
desired when he considered the side of the head could be here
1:05:52
or here all right but i would say the side of the head would be the temporal region there was
1:05:58
no bullet wounds here really okay he did mention on anyone on a certain tv documentary he did point to
1:06:05
here as far as what he said was the entrance wound and it appeared president kennedy was shot from the front viewing
1:06:11
this film right yeah so would you say that's correct i would say that's pretty close to where
1:06:17
it was when you're discussing something with somebody
1:06:23
you don't actually hit it right on you can come off to the side a little bit and see where i'm at
1:06:30
actually it was right in here you could see where this the fragment is where it went in
1:06:37
the destruction you had the picture
1:06:44
watch where the lines emanate from there's a focal point
1:06:49
that's the shell entrance back to the same simple theory
1:06:55
look at what you have it's as plain as the nose on your face dumpster might as well the boy looked
1:07:02
like at the back of the head there no look at your fracture
1:07:08
where do they come from where do they start at where's all the damage it
1:07:15
you see damage on the frontal sinuses you see damage on the orbit
1:07:22
the floor of the orbit the orbital ridge
1:07:27
if a bullet goes in the front you'd have fracturing in that area the
1:07:33
bullet would come out that front go in at the back and come
1:07:38
out that front you wouldn't have no orbital area or the frontal sign that's it
1:07:44
if you've ever seen anybody that has been shot in the back of the head and the bullet accident from the face
1:07:50
there's not much of the face left and you've seen such things i've seen such things so you would know basically what
1:07:57
a bullet would do if it hit you in the back of the head correct so you would know what to look for and
1:08:02
you could tell this man was hitting the back of the head there wouldn't be any question in your mind right you'd see all the facial damage
1:08:09
when a bullet goes in it expands destroys tissue you have fragments bullets tissue bone
1:08:17
coming forward all that is one big mass
1:08:22
and it just brings everything and this is not indicative of someone who was shot no this would all be gone all right what
1:08:28
would you say what you're going to get is people that are going to say what it was a steel jacket a bullet it was it
1:08:35
was made to stay in place we're talking about the carcano now okay that's fine let them say that
1:08:42
explain away all the fragments yeah there's dust like fragments here all
1:08:47
over the place if you had a steel jacket a bullet that remained intact or partially intact
1:08:54
99 intact the steel jacketed bullet is meant to go in
1:08:59
kill and come back out so you're not going to see fragments you're not going to see dust
1:09:05
particles right but not that much and you wouldn't see that sizeable
1:09:11
fragments in there like that that bullet went in and exploded
1:09:18
that's what it's used for and what about the notion i know you said something yesterday briefly about his uh eye was
1:09:24
what hanging out right right and that's basically from the destruction
1:09:31
of all the tendons and ligaments within the eye and the muscles that were
1:09:36
destroyed from being severed on the bullet at one end that's what sam kinney said the
1:09:41
driver of the fall car when he first saw the parking he said that his right eye was on his chin right
1:09:46
literally it went straight up wow and there was nothing to hold it
1:09:53
the only thing that held it is maybe a few small muscles that one torn in the skin itself
1:10:00
here you can see the eye was placed back like i said last night the mortician was already here
1:10:07
he had started his work after i had completed mine
1:10:13
all right okay that's why i can't say i really truthfully have nothing to do
1:10:18
with these photos and i can't authenticate them one way or
1:10:25
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on December 19, 2023, 10:49:58 PM
59:57
VINCE      i have something go you fill it in okay um are you aware the allegations of uh 1:00:03 was it i don't know it was an admiral or captain david osborne about the bullet falling out of the body 1:00:08 during the autopsy i guess when they lifted them up did you see a whole bullet or a fragment 1:00:13 that would fall out of the president
CUSTER       well i wouldn't call it a fragment i'd say it was pretty sized 1:00:20 a real bullet right because it created such a fuss they ran over with a set of forceps 1:00:27 forceps are like a pair of scissors but they're flattened on the end so they could grab 1:00:32 and then grabbed it picked it up and put it in a little basin of water
BILL      now now this is 1:00:39 this the the bullet now you when you were doing the x-rays and and you had him on the table and 1:00:45 moving him around didn't you tell me at some point in some of our earlier conversations 1:00:51 that a bullet fragment fell out of the president
CUSTER      this was 1:00:57 this was the time that they found that
BILL       okay and what happened what was their demeanour 1:01:02 what was what happened when that bullet fragment fell out
CUSTER     the i called 1:01:08 one of the surgeons or one of the pathologists nonaudible said hey we have a bullet here 1:01:13 as soon as they heard that they come down off of the uh raised platform and ran over and then they 1:01:20 picked it up then siebert and neil also come over and said well we want that that's
VINCE       1:01:26 because they have a receipt for a missile a lot of times people think it's semantics it wasn't a fragment so you're saying it wasn't a whole bullet it was a 1:01:33 sizeable fragment of it
CUSTER     was well let's 1:01:38 see you you're beginning in semantics here about sizable uh 1:01:44 it was distinguishable enough to know it was a bullet
VINCE     okay
CUSTER     what but it wasn't complete because 1:01:51 there was some fragmentation some area of destruction on the bullet
BILL            just for clarification what area of the body did 1:01:58 it fall out
CUSTER         that was the upper thoracic the upper back
BILL         okay so so it fell out it 1:02:04 literally fell out of the back wound
CUSTER         right
BILL           all right well now the single bullet theory 1:02:11 would have us believe that the bullet went in came out his throat 1:02:17 hit conley in the in the right armpit came out broke his left wrist and they 1:02:23 cut the radial nerve and went into his leg so if you're telling us 1:02:28 that that the bullet fragment fell out of the back that blows the single bullet theory to 1:02:33 hell right there
CUSTER        right
VINCE             and also the fact it was too low on the back to exit the neck you know as far as the right to 1:02:40 left trajectory vertical on horizontal too
BILL        and you're absolutely certain 1:02:45 this bullet fragment fell out of the back
CUSTER          absolutely
BILL             the back wound itself out of the back wound
CUSTER         we lifted him up 1:02:51 man boom and that's where it come out
VINCE           that's corroboration for david osborne too 1:02:56 yeah
BILL             that would explain missile received from siebert and o'neal
CUSTER          right
VINCE               right
BILL               that's something that that i've wanted to clear up
CUSTER          they 1:03:02 documented everything that happened that evening
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on December 20, 2023, 12:00:36 AM
59:57
VINCE      i have something go you fill it in okay um are you aware the allegations of uh 1:00:03 was it i don't know it was an admiral or captain david osborne about the bullet falling out of the body 1:00:08 during the autopsy i guess when they lifted them up did you see a whole bullet or a fragment 1:00:13 that would fall out of the president
CUSTER       well i wouldn't call it a fragment i'd say it was pretty sized 1:00:20 a real bullet right because it created such a fuss they ran over with a set of forceps 1:00:27 forceps are like a pair of scissors but they're flattened on the end so they could grab 1:00:32 and then grabbed it picked it up and put it in a little basin of water
BILL      now now this is 1:00:39 this the the bullet now you when you were doing the x-rays and and you had him on the table and 1:00:45 moving him around didn't you tell me at some point in some of our earlier conversations 1:00:51 that a bullet fragment fell out of the president
CUSTER      this was 1:00:57 this was the time that they found that
BILL       okay and what happened what was their demeanour 1:01:02 what was what happened when that bullet fragment fell out
CUSTER     the i called 1:01:08 one of the surgeons or one of the pathologists nonaudible said hey we have a bullet here 1:01:13 as soon as they heard that they come down off of the uh raised platform and ran over and then they 1:01:20 picked it up then siebert and neil also come over and said well we want that that's
VINCE       1:01:26 because they have a receipt for a missile a lot of times people think it's semantics it wasn't a fragment so you're saying it wasn't a whole bullet it was a 1:01:33 sizeable fragment of it
CUSTER     was well let's 1:01:38 see you you're beginning in semantics here about sizable uh 1:01:44 it was distinguishable enough to know it was a bullet
VINCE     okay
CUSTER     what but it wasn't complete because 1:01:51 there was some fragmentation some area of destruction on the bullet
BILL            just for clarification what area of the body did 1:01:58 it fall out
CUSTER         that was the upper thoracic the upper back
BILL         okay so so it fell out it 1:02:04 literally fell out of the back wound
CUSTER         right
BILL           all right well now the single bullet theory 1:02:11 would have us believe that the bullet went in came out his throat 1:02:17 hit conley in the in the right armpit came out broke his left wrist and they 1:02:23 cut the radial nerve and went into his leg so if you're telling us 1:02:28 that that the bullet fragment fell out of the back that blows the single bullet theory to 1:02:33 hell right there
CUSTER        right
VINCE             and also the fact it was too low on the back to exit the neck you know as far as the right to 1:02:40 left trajectory vertical on horizontal too
BILL        and you're absolutely certain 1:02:45 this bullet fragment fell out of the back
CUSTER          absolutely
BILL             the back wound itself out of the back wound
CUSTER         we lifted him up 1:02:51 man boom and that's where it come out
VINCE           that's corroboration for david osborne too 1:02:56 yeah
BILL             that would explain missile received from siebert and o'neal
CUSTER          right
VINCE               right
BILL               that's something that that i've wanted to clear up
CUSTER          they 1:03:02 documented everything that happened that evening

Ok lemmeseeenow.
I reckon that that CUSTER fragment fell out of jfk's head, either from inside the head (AR15), or from outside (eg from the hair)(Carcano)(from shot-1 ricochet).
I reckon that Custer was wrong. The fragment did not come from the back/neck wound (Carcano)(impossible).
I reckon that the fragment fell out of (or off) the head earlier, & the fragment was sitting (stuck) to jfk's back, ie under jfk. And then fell off his back when jfk was moved.

If it was a large fragment then it must have come from inside the head (AR15).
I reckon that a large fragment on the outside of the head (from ricochet)(Carcano) would have been evident at Parkdale.
If it was a small fragment (Carcano) then i reckon that it could have been (hidden) on the outside of the head (or it could have been on the inside)(AR15).
If the fragment was on the outside (Carcano) then the question arises........... was the fragment made of copper (brass) or lead? I think lead (from Carcano)(or from AR15).
If the fragment was copper (brass) then that would definitely be from the ricochet (Carcano).

And the question arises........ did the fragment fall out before or after or during the xray(s)? I think before.
But, Custer said that he took his xrays after jfk had been moved around. Dunno.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on December 20, 2023, 02:43:40 AM
CUSTER       well i wouldn't call it a fragment i'd say it was pretty sized 1:00:20 a real bullet right because it created such a fuss they ran over with a set of forceps 1:00:27 forceps are like a pair of scissors but they're flattened on the end so they could grab 1:00:32 and then grabbed it picked it up and put it in a little basin of water
CUSTER     the i called 1:01:08 one of the surgeons or one of the pathologists sermons said hey we have a bullet here 1:01:13 as soon as they heard that they come down off of the uh raised platform and ran over and then they 1:01:20 picked it up then siebert and neil also come over and said well we want that that's
VINCE       1:01:26 because they have a receipt for a missile a lot of times people think it's semantics it wasn't a fragment so you're saying it wasn't a whole bullet it was a 1:01:33 sizeable fragment of it
CUSTER     was well let's 1:01:38 see you you're beginning in semantics here about sizable uh 1:01:44 it was distinguishable enough to know it was a bullet
VINCE     okay
CUSTER     what but it wasn't complete because 1:01:51 there was some fragmentation some area of destruction on the bullet
VINCE           that's corroboration for david osborne too 1:02:56 yeah
BILL             that would explain missile received from siebert and o'neal [/u]

I reckon that the Custer fragment was probly a small part of the hollow point AR15 .223  slug that exploded in jfk's head, but this small fragment would not look like a bullet.
The main remnant fragment of that slug (that looked like a bullet) exited jfk's head & cracked the windshield.
Tests in gelatine all show that a hollow point yields a remnant fragment that looks like a bullet. And it penetrates a long way past the smaller fragments. And it sometimes veers say 10 degrees.
Praps that remnant slug bounced back into jfk's head (after cracking the windshield). Highly unlikely.
Praps it lodged in jfk's clothing (instead of jfk's head), but then the slug would surely have been found at Parkland.

Its a mystery. Ok. I have made up my mind.
Its the remnant from the headshot.
But where did it finish?  In head?  In clothing? 
And how come it wasnt found at Parkland?
And where is it now? 
It was never heard of again (in official reports). Koz it was obviously not from a Carcano, it was from the AR15.
I need to read up on what Dr David Osborne said.


Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on December 20, 2023, 03:47:27 AM
https://www.patspeer.com/reclaimng-history-from-reclaiming-history-part-ii
After reading Pat Speer's wordage (link above) re the autopsy, i reckon that Custer & Osborne did not see
 a largish slug (fragment) fall out of JFK or his clothing (sheets).


775. AFIP Record 205-10001-10002, Memorandum, Dr. Finck to Brigadier Gen. J. M. Blumberg, Personal notes on the Assassination of President Kennedy, February 1, 1965 (hereafter “Memorandum, Finck to Blumberg”), p.1; also ARRB MD 28; Breo, “JFK’s Death, Part III,” p.1749.
7:30 p.m. (8:30p.m. EST)
At the Bethesda Naval Hospital, a hot white light illuminates the hands of the two pathologists huddled over the body of the late president. In the interests of time, Dr. Humes decided not to wait for Lieutenant Colonel Finck to arrive at Bethesda. Instead, he and Dr. Boswell set about the task of recovering the two largest bullet fragments seen in the X-rays of the president's skull. The hole in the right side of the head was immense (over five inches in its greatest diameter), making access to the brain relatively easy. Portions of the skull, literally shattered by the force of the bullet, fall apart in the hands of the two pathologists as they try to reach the minute fragments behind the right eye and near the back of the skull .795
795. 2 H 353–354, WCT Dr. James J. Humes; 2 H 94, 100, WCT Roy H. Kellerman; ARRB MD 47, Affidavit of Francis X. O’Neill Jr., November 8, 1978, pp.4–5.
Both are recovered,
NOTE: THIS IS NOT TRUE. THE LARGEST WAS RECOVERED FROM BEHIND THE EYE, AS WAS ANOTHER SMALLER ONE FROM BEHIND THE EYE.
433 Both are recovered: Conspiracy theorists, eager to find an extra fourth bullet, one more than Oswald is believed to have fired, and hence a conspiracy, got very excited when they learned that the receipt for the two fragments turned over to FBI agents Sibert and O’Neill on November 22, 1963, and signed by the two agents, refers to a “receipt of a missle [sic]” (HSCA Record 180-10120-10362; JFK Doc- ument 014834). But the HSCA concluded that “the receipt was in error.” Chester H. Boyers, the navy corpsman who typed the receipt, gave HSCA investigators an affidavit under penalty of perjury that contained his handwritten notes at the time of the autopsy, in which he jotted down during the autopsy that “there were bul- let missile fragments recovered. These were placed in a specimen container and delivered to me. The FBI was there and wanted them.” The affidavit says that “although the receipt states that a ‘missile’ was transferred, this is an error” (HSCA Record 180-10120-10362, Affidavit of Chester Boyers, December 4, 1978 p.3, p.2 of accompanying notes). Both Agents Sibert and O’Neill confirmed to the HSCA that they received two bullet fragments, not a missile. As Sibert put it in an affidavit, “Regarding the receipt for the ‘missile,’ I do not recall exactly how the receipt described the fragments but it was certainly not for a whole missile, rather it was for some fragments. [“Two metal fragments,” he says earlier.] A single mis- sile to me means considerable substance, more of a whole bullet. This receipt was prepared by someone else and typed up by a naval corpsman. If I had prepared the receipt, I would have listed the items as metal fragments” (7 HSCA 11–12; JFK Document 002191, HSCA interview of Sibert on August 25, 1977; HSCA 180- 10100-10135, Affidavit of Sibert on October 24, 1978, p.5; JFK Document 006185, HSCA interview of O’Neill on January 10, 1978).

In 1975, Dennis David, a navy first-class petty officer at the time of the assassination who later became a key cog in conspiracy author David Lifton’s zany body-alteration theory, claimed that he was the one who typed up the receipt for the bullet fragments. During an interview for Lifton’s book, David claimed that a Secret Service agent reportedly dictated the receipt in the administrative offices, describing the physical characteristics of four bullet fragments. David said he kept no copies. “I just typed it on an original . . . and handed it to the Secret Service agent. And the agent made some comment about, ‘This is considered classified material. Secret.’ Or something to that effect” (Lifton, Best Evidence, p.579). By 1997, David was claiming that the unnamed agent allowed him to handle the frag- ments, then admonished him about security concerns, told him to treat the information as classified, and confiscated all copies of the memo “including the pieces of carbon paper, and even took the ribbon from the IBM Selectric typewriter with him” (ARRB MD 177, ARRB interview of Dennis David, February 14, 1997, pp.2–3). David’s credibility couldn’t be any lower in this regard. His name doesn’t appear on any list of personnel involved in the autopsy (7 HSCA 8–9), nor is his story about typing the receipt for four bullet fragments corroborated by anyone. In addition, David admitted being hypnotized in 1994 in New York State to recover memories of the autopsy events (ARRB MD 177, ARRB interview of Dennis David, February 14, 1997, p.4; see also Law with Eaglesham, In the Eye of History, pp.12–13).

Although the “fourth bullet rather than two fragments” argument is deader than a doornail, David Lifton has persisted in trying to keep it alive, and his weapon is the faulty memory of others.

In 1978, Admiral David Osborne told HSCA investigators that at the time of the autopsy (Osborne was then a captain and chief of surgery at Bethesda) he saw a “fully intact, copper-clad slug” roll out of the president’s clothing onto the table when the president’s shoulders were raised to remove the suit coat Osborne said Kennedy was wearing (ARRB MD 66, HSCA Outside Contact Report of interview of Admiral David Osborne, June 20, 1978, p.3).
Of course, throughout the HSCA’s entire investigation no one else had told the committee about seeing a slug on the autopsy table or anywhere else at Bethesda.
The HSCA said it “recontacted Admiral Osborne and informed him that the body of the president had not arrived in any clothes [as Osborne said], but was wrapped in sheets, and that no one else recalled anything about the discovery of a missile.
Osborne then said that he could not be sure he actually did see a mis- sile and that it was possible the FBI and Secret Service only spoke about the dis- covery of a missile” (7 HSCA 15–16; ARRB MD 16, HSCA Outside Contact Report of interview of David Osborne on June 20, 1978, p.3).

Lifton contacted Osborne the next year and Osborne proceeded to tell him his original story, claiming that Kennedy arrived in his casket in his clothing, and a “reasonably clean, unmarred” bullet fell from the clothing.
But now Osborne added a real zinger. He not only saw the bullet, which is what he told the HSCA, he held “that bullet in my hand.” (Lifton, Best Evidence, pp.645–646) My, my.

Lifton next contacted Captain John Stover in April of 1980. Stover had been the commanding officer of the U.S. Naval Medical School and, like Osborne, was in the autopsy room during the autopsy.
Lifton says that Stover confirmed Osborne’s assertion that there was a bullet in the autopsy room, saying, “It seems to me that the one they found in Dallas they brought up . . . I think it was in a brown paper envelope” (Lifton, Best Evidence, p.651).
If I can conclude this silly story with one observation over and above the fact that it has been established beyond any reasonable doubt that two large bullet fragments, not a missile or bullet, were found during the autopsy, it would be this.
As set forth in the text, we know that Dr. James Humes and his two fellow autopsy surgeons were completely perplexed over (and made a very big issue out of) the fact that they could not find or figure out what happened to the bullet that entered the upper right part of the president’s back, Humes only determining what happened to it the following morning when he spoke on the phone to Dr. Malcolm Perry.
If, indeed, Drs. Osborne and Stover recall seeing an intact bullet in the autopsy room that night—and if we’re to believe Osborne, he actually held it in his hand—why didn’t either one of them bother to mention this bullet to the three pathologists who were so troubled all evening by its absence? You know, “Dr. Humes? Here’s the bullet you’re looking for.”
placed into a glass jar with a black metal top, and turned over later in the evening to FBI agents for transport to the FBI laboratory.796* (FOOTNOTE)
*No bullet, or significant portion thereof, was found in either Kennedy's or Connally's body.
796. ARRB MD 44, FBI Report of O’Neill and Sibert, November 26, 1963, p.4.

To remove the brain, Humes and Boswell use a scalpel to extend the lacerations of the scalp downward toward the ears. Normally, a saw would be used to cut the skullcap and remove the brain. Here, the damage is so devastating that the doctors can lift the brain out of the head without recourse to a saw. 797
797. 2 H 354, WCT Dr. James J. Humes; ARRB MD 19, Memorandum to File, Andy Purdy, August 17, 1977, p.17; AFIP Record 205-10001-10002, Memorandum, Finck to Blumberg, p.2; also ARRB MD 28; Breo, “JFK’s Death—The Plain Truth from the MDs Who Did the Autopsy,” p.2798.
The left hemisphere of the brain is intact, while the damage to the right one is massive.'"
798. CE 391, 16 H 981, 987.
Just as the brain is fixed in formalin for further study, Lieutenant Colonel Finck walks into the autopsy room


See also.........
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/pdf/HSCA_Vol7_M2_Autopsy.pdf
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/pdf/md66.pdf
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on December 27, 2023, 08:30:42 PM
We need 2 new Xs to mark jfk's pozzie at shot-1 & shot-2.

Pozzie of X1 (shot-1).
Stand 3ft north of the center of the center lane, just west of the overhead signals, such that a line from
Point-1A (Oswald's Carcano in the window) passes throo
Point-1B (the west edge of the west guyrod 6" north of the collar on the main pipe of the overhead signals)(old signals now gone)(new signals different i guess) & that line passes throo
Point-1C (your chest). Point-1C would have been jfk's heart back in 22nov1963). I suppose that the existing X on Elm St is a mile too far west.

Pozzie of X2 (shot-2).
Stand 3ft north of the center of the center lane, such that a line from
Point-2A (Zapruder's camera up on pedestal) passes throo
Point-2B (the midpoint of the old Stemmons sign)(now gone) & that line passes throo
Point-2C (your nose). Point-2C would have been jfk at Z218. Shot-2 of course came from the Carcano. I suppose that the existing X on Elm St is too far west.

Pozzie of X3 X4 X5 X6 (shots-3 4 5 & 6)(Hickey's AR15).
Point-3 is when jfk is at say Z300.
Point-6 is when jfk is at Z313. The existing X on Elm St is probly ok.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on January 12, 2024, 02:54:14 AM
Buell Frazier might have been able to see the Oswald shot-1 ricochet hit JFK in the back of his head (xrays).
..................."My god i have been hit".

(https://i.postimg.cc/CLGmSJbS/frazier-view-from-steps-shot-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on January 14, 2024, 12:41:19 PM
We need 2 new Xs to mark jfk's pozzie at shot-1 & shot-2.

Pozzie of X1 (shot-1).
Stand 3ft north of the center of the center lane, just west of the overhead signals, such that a line from
Point-1A (Oswald's Carcano in the window) passes throo
Point-1B (the west edge of the west guyrod 6" north of the collar on the main pipe of the overhead signals)(old signals now gone)(new signals different i guess) & that line passes throo
Point-1C (your chest). Point-1C would have been jfk's heart back in 22nov1963). I suppose that the existing X on Elm St is a mile too far west.

Pozzie of X2 (shot-2).
Stand 3ft north of the center of the center lane, such that a line from
Point-2A (Zapruder's camera up on pedestal) passes throo
Point-2B (the midpoint of the old Stemmons sign)(now gone) & that line passes throo
Point-2C (your nose). Point-2C would have been jfk at Z218. Shot-2 of course came from the Carcano. I suppose that the existing X on Elm St is too far west.

Pozzie of X3 X4 X5 X6 (shots-3 4 5 & 6)(Hickey's AR15).
Point-3 is when jfk is at say Z300.
Point-6 is when jfk is at Z313. The existing X on Elm St is probly ok.

For any newcomers or for those who aren't familiar with this whacky theory, this Z105-113 ricochet-shot/Z132-133-gap-shot theory is a fringe theory (1) that is demonstrably false, and (2) that nearly all researchers view as preposterous and unserious.

In Z105-113, JFK's limousine is not even on Elm Street yet. The limo is still on Houston Street during these frames. How in the world would any sixth-floor gunman have fired a shot that could have hit the guy rod/support pole of the traffic signal on Elm Street in front of the Book Depository if he had been aiming at a target that was on Houston Street during these frames? This is beyond absurd.

A version of this theory is that the sixth-floor gunman fired during the 3-4-second gap between Z132 and Z133 and hit the traffic signal's guy rod or support pole, producing ricochet fragments. According to this theory, one of the ricochet fragments traveled over 400 feet to strike the curb near James Tague with enough velocity to cause a chip in the curb and to send a chip of concrete streaking toward Tague with enough velocity to cut his face!

Some adherents to this Z132-133-gap-shot theory also posit that two other fragments from this shot struck the back of JFK's head and constitute the two back-of-head fragments seen on the skull x-rays. However, they cannot explain why JFK shows no reaction to this wounding, or to any wounding, in the 60 frames following Z133. They also refuse to face the fact that JFK's head was not in position to be struck from behind in Z133--in Z133 he is facing to the right and waving at the crowd.

The impact of the two back-of-head fragments would have caused a painful stinging sensation. One of the fragments tore through all five layers of the scalp, including the galea and the periosteum (two tough lower layers of fibrous tissue) and penetrated into the outer table of the skull. The other fragment tore through four of the five scalp layers and lodged in the periosteum (i.e., between the galea and the outer table). These penetrations would have been noticeable and painful, and would have immediately alerted JFK that something serious and threatening had just occurred. 

Yet, from Z133 until around Z194, JFK acts as though everything is fine. He continues to wave and smile at the crowd. He would not have acted like this if he had just had one bullet fragment tear through four of the five layers of his scalp and had had another bullet fragment tear through all five layers of his scalp and penetrate into his outer skull bone.

A key component of this whacky, ridiculous theory is the debunked claim that the explosive head shot in Z313 was accidentally fired by Secret Service agent George Hickey in the follow-up car. JFK aide Dave Powers was riding in the follow-up car with Hickey. When asked about the nutty claim that Hickey accidentally fired at JFK, Powers said, "someone a foot away from me or two feet away from me couldn’t fire the gun without me hearing it.” No one else in the follow-up car reported hearing Hickey fire a shot either, including another Kennedy aide, Kenny O'Donnell.

Significantly, when Kennedy O'Donnell revealed to former Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill that he heard shots from the grassy knoll, he said nothing about hearing Hickey fire a shot. Powers confirmed O'Donnell's account of hearing shots from the grassy knoll. Both men were highly critical of the Secret Service's failure to protect JFK. Neither man would have had any hesitation about revealing to O'Neill that Hickey had accidentally fired a shot toward JFK.





Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on January 14, 2024, 01:28:54 PM
Quotes from Michael T. Griffith..........
For any newcomers or for those who aren't familiar with this whacky theory, this Z105-113 ricochet-shot/Z132-133-gap-shot theory is a fringe theory (1) that is demonstrably false, and (2) that nearly all researchers view as preposterous and unserious.
I agree with u. My own ricochet theory is correct.

In Z105-113, JFK's limousine is not even on Elm Street yet. The limo is still on Houston Street during these frames. How in the world would any sixth-floor gunman have fired a shot that could have hit the guy rod/support pole of the traffic signal on Elm Street in front of the Book Depository if he had been aiming at a target that was on Houston Street during these frames? This is beyond absurd.
The pozzie of X1 is a location on the ground. Z105 etc are not locations, they are merely estimates of when X1 happened.

A version of this theory is that the sixth-floor gunman fired during the 3-4-second gap between Z132 and Z133 and hit the traffic signal's guy rod or support pole, producing ricochet fragments. According to this theory, one of the ricochet fragments traveled over 400 feet to strike the curb near James Tague with enough velocity to cause a chip in the curb and to send a chip of concrete streaking toward Tague with enough velocity to cut his face!
I agree with u that that long distance ricochet theory is absurd.

Some adherents to this Z132-133-gap-shot theory also posit that two other fragments from this shot struck the back of JFK's head and constitute the two back-of-head fragments seen on the skull x-rays. However, they cannot explain why JFK shows no reaction to this wounding, or to any wounding, in the 60 frames following Z133. They also refuse to face the fact that JFK's head was not in position to be struck from behind in Z133--in Z133 he is facing to the right and waving at the crowd.
Yes the ricochet offa the signal arm splattered the back of jfk's head. This was at approximately pseudo Z105.
Roselle & Scearce wrote a number of papers re reactions to an early shot, alltho they had it at about Z125 i think.

The impact of the two back-of-head fragments would have caused a painful stinging sensation. One of the fragments tore through all five layers of the scalp, including the galea and the periosteum (two tough lower layers of fibrous tissue) and penetrated into the outer table of the skull. The other fragment tore through four of the five scalp layers and lodged in the periosteum (i.e., between the galea and the outer table). These penetrations would have been noticeable and painful, and would have immediately alerted JFK that something serious and threatening had just occurred. 
Blood sugar tests use a quick prick koz a quick prick is less painful than a slow prick.

Yet, from Z133 until around Z194, JFK acts as though everything is fine. He continues to wave and smile at the crowd. He would not have acted like this if he had just had one bullet fragment tear through four of the five layers of his scalp and had had another bullet fragment tear through all five layers of his scalp and penetrate into his outer skull bone.


A key component of this whacky, ridiculous theory is the debunked claim that the explosive head shot in Z313 was accidentally fired by Secret Service agent George Hickey in the follow-up car. JFK aide Dave Powers was riding in the follow-up car with Hickey. When asked about the nutty claim that Hickey accidentally fired at JFK, Powers said, "someone a foot away from me or two feet away from me couldn’t fire the gun without me hearing it.” No one else in the follow-up car reported hearing Hickey fire a shot either, including another Kennedy aide, Kenny O'Donnell.
Yes. Powers did not & would not lie. He merely uttered an obviously true statement, a statement that was not a denial. In other words, Powers never denied that he heard Hickey shoot.

Significantly, when Kennedy O'Donnell revealed to former Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill that he heard shots from the grassy knoll, he said nothing about hearing Hickey fire a shot. Powers confirmed O'Donnell's account of hearing shots from the grassy knoll. Both men were highly critical of the Secret Service's failure to protect JFK. Neither man would have had any hesitation about revealing to O'Neill that Hickey had accidentally fired a shot toward JFK.
Hearing an echo of a shot is not the same as hearing the shot. And, echoes are usually louder than the source, if the fence-wall is close, especially if the fence-wall is concave.
Title: Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on February 08, 2024, 04:45:09 AM
Here are the timings for Oswald's shot-1 & shot-2 & for a faux shot-3.
87 ft is the horizontal dist scaled by me, 106 ft is the hypotenuse dist allowing for vertical dist estimated by me.

Oswald Shot ----------- hit at ------ fired at  ------ sound hit JFK at – Carcano = 2170 ft per sec.
1 --- 87 ft = 106 ft ----- Z113 ------ Z112.1 ---------- Z113.9 ----- camera runs at 18.3 frames per sec.
2 --- 184 ft = 197 ft---- Z218 ------- Z216.3 --------- Z219.6
3 --- 255 ft = 266 ft ---- Z313 -------- Z310.8 --------- Z315.2 -------- Oswald did not have a shot-3.
The time tween shot-1 & shot-2 is 104.2 frames, which is 5.7 sec. Holland reckoned that shot-1 was at Z106, which is an extra 7 frames, or 0.4 sec, which makes it 6.1 sec.
The time tween shot-2 & faux shot-3 is 94.5 frames, which is 5.2 sec.
Adding to 10.9 sec.

Here are the timings for Hickey's auto burst, based on there being 6 shots.
Hickey Shot ------------- hit at ------ fired at  ------ sound hit JFK at -------
6 ---- 26 ft---------------- Z313 -------- Z312.8 ---------- Z313.2 --- hit JFK in head & cracked windshield.
5 ---- AR15 = 3250 ft per sec------------ Z310.0 ---------- hit chrome trim on windshield.
4 ---- sound = 1100 ft per sec ----------- Z307.25 -------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
3 ---- probly 400 rpm= 6.67 rps --------- Z304.5 ---------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
2 ------------------------------------------- Z301.8 ----------- went over the windshield, hit Elm St.
1 ------------------------------------------- Z299.0 ---- probly hit Main St pavement & then kerb near Tague.
My calculation of Oswald's angles based on above is .....
shot-1 at Z113 is -34.8 deg. If at Holland's Z106 it is still -34.6 deg koz either way it is at the signals.
shot-2 at Z218 is -21.0 deg.
shot-3 at Z312 is -16.6 deg.