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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Christer Jacobsson on February 11, 2021, 01:31:20 PM

Title: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Christer Jacobsson on February 11, 2021, 01:31:20 PM

An interesting and informative interview concerning the location of a bullet hole in the limousine windshield, the hole was located just above the metal near the bottom of the glass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx2DhBgasCM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx2DhBgasCM)    Thumb1:

Best Regards,
Christer
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on February 14, 2021, 02:24:18 AM
I spent hours looking into the supposed hole, all hole statements are baloney.
The remnant slug of Hickey's AR15 headshot at Z313 hit the inside of the windshield just left of mirror (ie driver's side), there are photos of the cracked windshield on the day & on the next day & recent (the cracked windshield is today on display)(the modern cracks go completely across).
Lead fragments were taken from the impact area, on the inside.
The cracks were (& i would say "are" except that i havent inspected the windshield myself) on the outside layer of the laminated glass.
There was a very small chip missing on the outside.
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on February 14, 2021, 02:54:44 AM
How do we know this supposed "hole" was caused by a bullet? How do we know it was a hole and not a crack?

Robert Frazier of the FBI testified that he examined the limo. He said this about the windshield (this is from his testimony in the Clay Shaw trial).

Q: Did you find anything unusual about the windshield and if so, please describe that condition?
A: The windshield was partially broken in a star-shaped fashion, that is there was a crack in the windshield. I made a specific examination of it to determine what caused the crack. I found on the inside surface of the windshield a deposit of lead which had been forced against the glass and had splattered and as a result determined the glass had been broken by the impact of a projectile striking the inside surface of the glass and fracturing the windshield in the outer layer.
Q: Upon what did you base your determination that the glass had been hit by a projectile hitting the inside rather than the outside?
A: As a result of having examined hundreds of pieces of glass which have been broken in a known fashion, that is by a blow delivered in a known way, it is possible by studying the radial cracks or fractures emanating from the point of force to determine the side of the glass on which the force was applied.
Using the stress lines left on this glass at the time the glass was broken and caused by the object which broke the glass it is possible to determine the direction the force was applied. This examination of the cracks showed that the pressure had been applied on the inside surface.
Q: Now the opinion which you formed as to which side of the windshield had been hit, Mr. Frazier, was that a definite opinion or was there any doubt in your mind as an expert?
A: It is a definite conclusion.

Full testimony is here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazrsh.htm
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Christer Jacobsson on February 14, 2021, 12:14:14 PM
I spent hours looking into the supposed hole, all hole statements are baloney.
Fragment CE357 or CE359 of Hickey's AR15 bullet that killed JFK in Z313 hit the inside of the windshield just left of mirror (ie driver's side), there are photos of the cracked windshield on the day & on the next day & recent (the cracked windshield is today on display)(the modern cracks go completely across).
Lead fragments were taken from the impact area, on the inside.
The cracks were (& i would say "are" except that i havent inspected the windshield myself) on the outside layer of the laminated glass.
There was a very small chip missing on the outside.

Information about the theory that agent Hickey should have shot President Kennedy by mistake: https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/Shooting_holes_in_theory_that_a_Secret_Service_agent_killed_President_Kennedy.html (https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/Shooting_holes_in_theory_that_a_Secret_Service_agent_killed_President_Kennedy.html)

Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on February 14, 2021, 12:39:56 PM
Information about the theory that agent Hickey should have shot President Kennedy by mistake: https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/Shooting_holes_in_theory_that_a_Secret_Service_agent_killed_President_Kennedy.html (https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/Shooting_holes_in_theory_that_a_Secret_Service_agent_killed_President_Kennedy.html)
That article stinks. There are lots of good articles re Hickey.
At present i am looking into Bronson's footage of Hickey at about Z313. I hope to see Hickey raised up a little holding his AR15. But its all so blurry.
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on February 14, 2021, 06:24:47 PM
Here's a photo of the note that FBI agent Robert Frazier made regarding his examination of the windshield. Again, he said he recovered "lead" from the inside of the windshield. That could only have been created by a bullet fragment (a hole whole bullet would presumably have gone right through the windshield) hitting the inside and not a bullet entering from the outside.

(http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/kk351/JosiahThompson/Windshield/Fraziernote-windshield.jpg)
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Christer Jacobsson on February 14, 2021, 06:58:51 PM
At present i am looking into Bronson's footage of Hickey at about Z313. I hope to see Hickey raised up a little holding his AR15.

Keep on hoping..

1) https://photos.app.goo.gl/Z31YpzXwiQrpxTD59 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/Z31YpzXwiQrpxTD59)

2) https://photos.app.goo.gl/ubDCqJYsRSNC76yr9 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/ubDCqJYsRSNC76yr9)
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Christer Jacobsson on February 14, 2021, 07:10:43 PM
FBI agent Robert Frazier said he recovered "lead" from the inside of the windshield. That could only have been created by a bullet fragment (a hole bullet would presumably have gone right through the windshield) hitting the inside and not a bullet entering from the outside.



Caused by this: https://photos.app.goo.gl/w8DPZqDB4quwbvtx6 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/w8DPZqDB4quwbvtx6)

Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 15, 2021, 01:19:59 PM
An interesting and informative interview concerning the location of a bullet hole in the limousine windshield, the hole was located just above the metal near the bottom of the glass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx2DhBgasCM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx2DhBgasCM)    Thumb1:

Best Regards,
Christer

HI Christer,

just a couple of points about the video I felt worth mentioning. The first is this pic which is supposed to show a crack in the window shown in Altgens 6. The 'white blob' Weldon uses as his crack is actually JFK's shirt. This seems pretty obvious to me:

(https://i.postimg.cc/15WvCBFc/Screenshot-27.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Secondly, the note Weldon uses to demonstrate there was a hole really low down on the windshield actually blows his proposal out of the water. The note clearly reads:

...HAD BULLET HOLE IN IT, THE
...WAS ABOUT 4 OR 6 INCHES TO
...RIGHT OF THE REAR VIEW MIRROR...


(https://i.postimg.cc/gJJVZFMC/Screenshot-39.png) (https://postimages.org/)

The note is clearly referencing this hole in the windshield:

(https://i.postimg.cc/pLCkhZWn/fragment-damage-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The note, the centrepiece of Weldon's argument, is not referring to a hole low down on the windshield.
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on February 15, 2021, 05:55:51 PM
And another photo of one of Frazier's notes giving his measurements of the location of the "stellate crack":

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/kk351/JosiahThompson/Windshield/Fraziernote-diagramoflimo.jpg)
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Christer Jacobsson on February 15, 2021, 09:47:54 PM
HI Christer,

just a couple of points about the video I felt worth mentioning. The first is this pic which is supposed to show a crack in the window shown in Altgens 6. The 'white blob' Weldon uses as his crack is actually JFK's shirt. This seems pretty obvious to me:

Secondly, the note Weldon uses to demonstrate there was a hole really low down on the windshield actually blows his proposal out of the water. The note clearly reads:

...HAD BULLET HOLE IN IT, THE
...WAS ABOUT 4 OR 6 INCHES TO
...RIGHT OF THE REAR VIEW MIRROR...


The note is clearly referencing this hole in the windshield:

(https://i.postimg.cc/pLCkhZWn/fragment-damage-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The note, the centrepiece of Weldon's argument, is not referring to a hole low down on the windshield.

Hi Dan, thank you for commenting.

I´m aware of this in many ways however some of the information which is available today concerning a hole in the windshield doesen't quite add up when compared. I wanted to shed some new light on the matter and from a slightly different angle. This is the best photo I have on the alleged hole further up on the windshield: https://photos.app.goo.gl/uUZR3BuvKmoLXzjH7 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/uUZR3BuvKmoLXzjH7)

Best Regards,
Christer
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 15, 2021, 10:29:24 PM
And another photo of one of Frazier's notes giving his measurements of the location of the "stellate crack":

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/kk351/JosiahThompson/Windshield/Fraziernote-diagramoflimo.jpg)

Hi Steve,

If I'm reading Frazier's drawing correctly he is not even mentioning the crack in the windshield.
The measurements he has drawn on the windshield seem to refer to the dent in the chrome trim.
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Christer Jacobsson on February 15, 2021, 10:40:13 PM

Photo supplement: https://photos.app.goo.gl/AdjGzpgBATpavwAJA (https://photos.app.goo.gl/AdjGzpgBATpavwAJA)

Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 15, 2021, 11:09:26 PM
Photo supplement: https://photos.app.goo.gl/AdjGzpgBATpavwAJA (https://photos.app.goo.gl/AdjGzpgBATpavwAJA)

The dangers of circling things on blurry photos  Thumb1:

(https://i.postimg.cc/bvwSVQ1k/Screenshot-41.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Christer Jacobsson on February 16, 2021, 01:06:50 AM
The dangers of circling things on blurry photos  Thumb1:


You might instead use these combined photos to achieve a better comparison: https://photos.app.goo.gl/QWSSaTxhLSxrwJtW8 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/QWSSaTxhLSxrwJtW8)

Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 16, 2021, 04:29:18 AM

You might instead use these combined photos to achieve a better comparison: https://photos.app.goo.gl/QWSSaTxhLSxrwJtW8 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/QWSSaTxhLSxrwJtW8)

Top left is JFK's shirt and I'm not seeing the crack we know for certain was in the windshield in the other three.
Do we know for sure the other three pics were taken after the assassination?
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Christer Jacobsson on February 16, 2021, 12:32:01 PM
Top left is JFK's shirt and I'm not seeing the crack we know for certain was in the windshield in the other three.
Do we know for sure the other three pics were taken after the assassination?

The attached photo beneath was taken on Love Field shortly before Kennedy was killed, the lower section of the windshield shows no damages: https://photos.app.goo.gl/yZb5wRfEFUw54YBw5

As far as I know then the other four photos was taken after the assassination.
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Dan O'meara on February 16, 2021, 11:05:41 PM
The attached photo beneath was taken on Love Field shortly before Kennedy was killed, the lower section of the windshield shows no damages: https://photos.app.goo.gl/yZb5wRfEFUw54YBw5

As far as I know then the other four photos was taken after the assassination.

One of the photos is a close-up from Altgens 6 (the one which shows JFK's shirt)
If the other three were taken after the assassination where is the star-shaped crack we know was there.
The only thing I can think to explain this is that the other three were taken after the windshield was replaced.
It must be noted none of the other three photos shows a crack, they show a square patch that seems to be on the windshield but could equally be something just lying on the dashboard.
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on March 12, 2021, 05:48:16 AM
Photo supplement: https://photos.app.goo.gl/AdjGzpgBATpavwAJA (https://photos.app.goo.gl/AdjGzpgBATpavwAJA)
No the central impact is nearer the mirror as shown here & is difficult to see.

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/iwXuEyRTc0zK2bWahykU_g-bqM0gxuegZWKMaMbxKQJB1OBGTA0fWUOoTjEdGxtPFfiXWhaWEIZnGKlAgDxGO1rY8PogyTRwIzHpOOAFLW7BmqKHTluoQzHCLBnrAOPkgg=w1280)
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Robin Unger on April 27, 2021, 02:19:35 AM
Crack in the windshield.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Windshield.jpg)
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Robin Unger on April 27, 2021, 02:35:19 AM
Windscreen crack / Chrome trim dent ( Credit: Bill Miller )

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/limo_trim.jpg)
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on April 27, 2021, 02:50:23 AM
Windscreen crack / Chrome trim dent ( Credit: Bill Miller )
Yes on that angle the crack-impact is close to the mirror.
Some on this forum suggest that the white blob "on" the lab coat is a hole -- nope.
The crack was made by the remnant slug of Hickey shot-1, ie after exiting JFK's head.[edit 17april2022][It wasnt shot-1, it was the last shot of Hickey's auto burst][Hickey & the AR15 were falling forward not backward]
The dent was made by Hickey shot-2. [edit 17april2022][It wasnt shot-2, it was the second-last shot of Hickey's auto burst]
Hickey fired an accidental possibly slamfire auto burst of at least 4, probably 5, & possibly 6 shots.

Some on this forum say that there is a dent in the back of the mirror. Praps the hollow point slug that disintegrated on the chrome trim sent a fragment of lead back onto the steel visor rod from which it ricocheted forward onto the glass & then back to the back of the mirror. I think that the fragment could not go from the chrome trim to the back of the mirror directly, it had to make use of the steel rod & the glass. I doubt that the dent on the back of the mirror was caused by a fragment from the remnant that caused the cracks in the glass, the windshield slopes away at say 45 deg. No, my bet is that the damage to the mirror was due to Hickey shot-2 shot-5 (ie the second-last shot of his auto burst of say 6 shots), the slug that dented the chrome trim.

[edit 4feb2024][the AR15 hit the chrome trim exactly on the nose of a crease in the trim, & the initial splatter from the hollowpoint went down & forward, hitting the mirror directly.]
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Robin Unger on April 30, 2021, 08:34:57 AM
Just to make myself very clear, i do not believe that Hickey ever fired his AR-15 anytime during the motorcade.
Title: Re: The precise location of a bullet hole in the windshield of JFK's limousine.
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on April 30, 2021, 02:50:37 PM
Just to make myself very clear, i do not believe that Hickey ever fired his AR-15 anytime during the motorcade.
I read The Smoking Gun a month ago. I got Mortal Error today & will read it over the next few days.
I have posted on my thread recently (re was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode) & will again in the next few days debunking the debunking of Hickey's shot(s) plus some new info that i have come up with.
Robin, have u seen a better quality copy of McIntire-2? 
Might u be able to obtain the superior 2019 copies of the Bronson footage frames? (at present your gallery has the 2017 frames).
Is there any chance of getting more full frames of the Bell footage?  This refers to the sequence where the JFK limo is going under the triple underpass.