JFK Assassination Forum

Off Topic => Off Topic => Topic started by: Joe Elliott on January 06, 2021, 10:22:59 PM

Title: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 06, 2021, 10:22:59 PM
Assault on the Capitol

Rioters assaulting the Capitol Building. Senators and Congressmen forced to exit the Capitol.

There is no more debate. Trump must be charged with treason and sent to many, many years in prison. I have been against sending a President to prison. I didn’t want Nixon, Clinton or Trump (last year) to go to prison. But now I do. He called for this riot. This is an assault on Democracy.

Maximum force must be used of the rioters. Shoot them until they the survivors are driven from the Capitol and keep on fleeing. No rioter found within the Capitol must be allowed to live. Now. Where is the National Guard?

The Joint Chiefs of Staff must order the arrest of President Trump and have Vice President Pence take over as acting President, immediately. Remember. All enemies. Foreign or domestic. No enemy is except.

When the Senator and House reconvene in the Capitol, there must be no more debate. All the slates from each of the states must be accepted. I don’t want it to last more than an hour.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 06, 2021, 10:33:27 PM
Thanks Joe.

He need to be impeached and convicted ASAP. Follow the Constitution and forbid him from ever running for national office again. Or, have Pence assemble the Cabinet and invoke the 25th amendment and replace him. That's a short term answer since Trump can argue that he's capable of discharging the office. Then it goes to Congress.

Something has to be done. But the problem is that Trump would probably incite further violence if he's removed. Or his supporters will do even more damage in response to his removal. I hope - hope - that this is just a fringe group; but when you have 70% of Republicans believing the election was stolen then we're in serious trouble. Reasoning with these Trumpists it like talking to JFK conspiracy believers. Whatever you say is cited by them as evidence of a conspiracy. It's frustrating as hell.

As to treason: No, this is not treason. And no, we don't just shoot people. Arrest them, give them a fair trial, and if convicted give them the max penalty. Rule of law must be followed.

You're advocating things in a heated moment. We need to be calm and forceful and follow the law.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 07, 2021, 12:27:00 AM
Trump tweets this (about 15 minutes ago: 6:00 p.m. EDT):

"These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long. Go home with love & in peace. Remember this day forever!"

Oh yeah, we'll remember this day. And you too.

What do you do with a president like this? The system can't deal with him. I guess in a Parliamentary democracy you can have a vote of no confidence and replace his party. Or his party can replace him. But we're hamstrung here.

Our problem is that he has millions of supporters and while I don't think most of them will engage in violence (I hope not), most of them believe the election was stolen. When you have people in a democracy, a system that is dependent on faith in institutions, in the rule of law, in the legitimacy of your rulers and in the need for good faith discussions, believing such things then it cannot succeed. It has to fail, to splinter apart.

Meanwhile, we don't have a President, not a functioning one. Not until another week. Swell, the middle of a horrible pandemic, enemies abroad (and at home), an economy in a dive, and a country divided. If Trump had an ounce of dignity or concern, he'd resign and let Pence finish up.

Right, who am I kidding?



Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 01:06:38 AM
What do you do with a president like this? The system can't deal with him. I guess in a Parliamentary democracy you can have a vote of no confidence and replace his party. Or his party can replace him. But we're hamstrung here.

Impeach and imprison for life. If he is able to pardon himself then convict him under Georgia law of interfering with an election and give him the maximum sentence. And yelled at by Tom Cruise in person.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 07, 2021, 01:10:27 AM
Impeach and imprison for life. If he is able to pardon himself then convict him under Georgia law of interfering with an election and give him the maximum sentence.
You can't imprison him for life just like that. That will take weeks to do. He does have rights after all. We can't use his tactics against him. Then we'll little more than him. That would be making things worse not better.

If he had an ounce of decency he'd quit right now and let Pence finish up. But he doesn't have an atom of decency much less a whole ounce.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 01:15:44 AM

Those ballots and those ballot boxes rescored from Congress by the staff at the last-minute need to in up as one of the centerpieces of the Smithsonian Museum, protected by strong barriers and under constant military guard. The staffer who put that in place needs to receive a high award at the hands of President Biden and voted the thanks of Congress. Those boxes are easily as great a piece of history as the portrait of George Washington rescued by Dolly Madison as the British army approached Washington D. C.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 01:19:02 AM

You can't imprison him for life just like that. That will take weeks to do. He does have rights after all. We can't use his tactics against him. Then we'll little more than him. That would be making things worse not better.

If he had an ounce of decency he'd quit right now and let Pence finish up. But he doesn't have an atom of decency much less a whole ounce.

Of course. It all has to be done with proper trials. But this is the end result I am hoping for.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 07, 2021, 01:24:06 AM
Of course. It all has to be done with proper trials. But this is the end result I am hoping for.
Yes, I'm thinking of right now, the short term. We can worry about convicting him/holding him accountable later. Although just letting him go would be fine. I don't care about him anymore.

We have to get things calmed down. ASAP.

Then somehow we have to deal with his supporters. Trump may be gone but Trumpism still lives with us.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 01:59:15 AM

Where was the National Guard today? This is the most telegraphed coup attempt in history. Where were they?

Did Trump order them out of the area? What the hell happened?
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 07, 2021, 02:13:33 AM
Where was the National Guard today? This is the most telegraphed coup attempt in history. Where were they?

Did Trump order them out of the area? What the hell happened?
He's got no control over the National Guard. That's under the control of the Mayor of DC. She called them out yesterday Monday but I don't know why they weren't there.

Story here: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/urging-calm-dc-mayor-calls-national-guard-protests-75038523

The National Guard are under the control of governors or in this case the Mayor. Remember reading that JFK had to "nationalize" or "federalize" the Alabama and Mississippi National Guard units to order them to stop the violence over civil rights integration? That's because the governors Wallace and Barnett wouldn't use them to enforce the integration orders.

Added: Okay, Maggie Haberman of the NY Times tweeted this:

"NEW: Trump initially rebuffed and resisted requests to mobilize the National Guard, according to a person with knowledge of the vents. It required intervention from White House officials to get it done, according to the person with knowledge of the events."

But where was the security? I mean, these thugs storming the Capitol are clowns. Look at these people. I know it's easy for me sitting here to question things but what happened here? Looking at the scene now inside the Capitol there are numerous armed agents/guards in the halls. Where were they today?

Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 07, 2021, 02:48:47 AM
Impeach him and remove him from office. And bar him from running again.

If his supporters riot then we call out the military and secure the country. Yes, respect their rights, give them a trial, habeas corpus. But now is the time to act.

Trump - and any future president thinking of replicating him - must be told this is not acceptable.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 07, 2021, 03:02:09 AM
From Maggie Haberman of the NY Times: "The president, a senior adviser says, has "lost it." He has been almost impossible to talk to throughout the day today, and has been watching the coverage of the Capitol."

It's like a bad Allen Drury novel. Pence needs to convene the cabinet and remove Trump. That's a short term solution but it may get us through these two weeks.

We have a deranged man in office. No telling what he may try to do.

Added: "This is not news we deliver lightly,” @margbrennan says as she reports: Trump Cabinet secretaries are discussing invoking the 25th Amendment to remove President Trump. Nothing formal yet presented to VP Pence.

"I’m talking about actual members of the Cabinet," she says



Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 03:15:52 AM

He's got no control over the National Guard. That's under the control of the Mayor of DC. She called them out yesterday Monday but I don't know why they weren't there.

Story here: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/urging-calm-dc-mayor-calls-national-guard-protests-75038523

The National Guard are under the control of governors or in this case the Mayor. Remember reading that JFK had to "nationalize" or "federalize" the Alabama and Mississippi National Guard units to order them to stop the violence over civil rights integration? That's because the governors Wallace and Barnett wouldn't use them to enforce the integration orders.

Added: Okay, Maggie Haberman of the NY Times tweeted this:

"NEW: Trump initially rebuffed and resisted requests to mobilize the National Guard, according to a person with knowledge of the vents. It required intervention from White House officials to get it done, according to the person with knowledge of the events."

But where was the security? I mean, these thugs storming the Capitol are clowns. Look at these people. I know it's easy for me sitting here to question things but what happened here? Looking at the scene now inside the Capitol there are numerous armed agents/guards in the halls. Where were they today?

Well, there’s our answer. Trump has control of the National Guard, until he turns it over to a governor, or in this case, the mayor.

So here is how it must of went down. Just as General Benedict Arnold order as many troops away from West Point, opening up the vital fortress of West Point, and possibly General George Washington himself, to capture by the British army, President Trump did something similar. He may have ordered the National Guard units as far away as possible. In any case, when the Capitol was seized, the mayor of Washington D. C. frantically tried to contact the President, to release the control of the National Guard to her immediately. Trumps advisers told him he must do so. But he kept himself out of communication.

The military would not support his coup attempt. The National Guard would not support his coup attempt. The Washington D. C. police would not support his coup attempt. So, he ordered the only force he had some control over. The Proud Boys and their cohorts. And made certain that the National Guard was not ready and could not be used by anyone as long as possible. And they came within a minute or two of seizing the Vice President, Senators, Congressmen and the ballots themselves. And could be threatened to declare Trump the winner. Unbelievable. Trump only relented when it because clear that they have come close, but failed.

Why could this not have been seen in advance? I remember checking to see who was the general who was head of the local National Guard a couple of weeks ago and I thought everything was going to be taken care of.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Jerry Organ on January 07, 2021, 03:58:34 AM
I suspect some of this grew out of when the Senate "lawmakers" became a millionaires' club and the tool of lobbyists. Same frustration and isolated acts of violence seen during the BLM marches.

Look at the missed opportunities. Obama (whose own administration choose not to do much for blacks ( Link (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/13/barack-obama-legacy-racism-criminal-justice-system) ) followed by Trump. All the remarkable "change" candidates (Buttigieg, Warren, Sanders, Klobuchar) brushed aside for a 78-year-old "safe" choice.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 06:40:36 AM
When that female rioter was shot, I wonder if the other rioters used a Trump flag to make a Blood Banner.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 06:56:35 AM

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/capitol-police-weren-t-prepared-for-rioters-authorities-say/ar-BB1cwWq2?ocid=msedgntp (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/capitol-police-weren-t-prepared-for-rioters-authorities-say/ar-BB1cwWq2?ocid=msedgntp)

Quote
Federal authorities had planned to deal with protests this week with a relatively small, minimally visible presence, according to law-enforcement officials, hoping to avoid inflaming tensions as a show of force had done during unrest last year in Portland, Ore., and other cities.

Are you kidding me? This was the most blatant coup attempt in history. Trump was planning this, just in case, before the election.

September: To White Supremacists groups “Stand back and standby”
December: “Be there” . . . “It will be wild”
Last Sunday: Arranged a massive demonstration, within walking distance of the Capitol, at the same time Congress is meeting, “I will be there” . . . “will be wild”

And that caught you be surprise?

The guy in charge. Fired immediately. And place under arrest. Or at least questioned. How could someone be this stupid? Easy. If they were a Trump supporter and looked the other way. That, in my mind, is the most likely possibility, until proven otherwise. But for now, assume it is true. Get him out of command now.

The only equivalent I can think of, is the opening sense in Woody Allen’s movie “Bananas”, where there is a coup attempt, that everyone knows about, including Howard Cosell, who is there to cover it. Everyone knows except the Dictator, who gets shot and then immediately interviewed by Howard Cosell. But everyone else knows about it. Talk about Life imitating Art. What made it so funny was it was so unbelievable.


This coup came within an ace of working. They Senators and Congressmen were just on the other side of the doors. If the rioters had prepared guns ahead of time, had a car drive up at the last minute filled with weapons, it would have worked. But using just chemical sprays, crowbars and sheer numbers, it almost worked.

Get that guy fired.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 06:59:20 AM
Impeach him and remove him from office. And bar him from running again.

If his supporters riot then we call out the military and secure the country. Yes, respect their rights, give them a trial, habeas corpus. But now is the time to act.

Trump - and any future president thinking of replicating him - must be told this is not acceptable.

And knowing that this is unacceptable because Trump spent the rest of his life in prison. Telling future Presidents this is unacceptable might not work. Knowing the consequences gives the best chance.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 07:16:10 AM

Last night the voters in Georgia voted for two Democrats as Senators. In Georgia! The two Republicans just won the election (well had the most votes, but not 50%) and both still lost 9 weeks later.

Meaning: The Trump era is over. Not only does Trump lose but voters will vote down anyone Trump supports and who support Trump in trying to overturn the election.

What happened next: Stupid Republican politicians go ahead and go through the motions of reversing the election. They don’t realize the Trump era is over. The voters have already turned against him.

What happened next: Trump launches a coup attempt, trying to kidnap and force Congress to declare him the winner.

Effect: Voters will really turn against Trump and those trying to overturn the election.

What happens next: The Stupid Republicans go back and try again to overturn the election, or at least go through the motions.

Ted Cruz. You are dumber than a bag of nails. You are the walking dead. You are dead, politically. And you don’t know it. You’re walking about like a zombie, but your dead. And so are all others who support overturning this election, or going through the motions. You will be voted out at the next opportunity, I guarantee it.


I can just see Ted Cruz getting alone with Trump:

Cruz: Mr. President. I know you tried to steal the election. I know you tried to launch a coup. I know you tried to get me kidnapped or killed. But I want you to know one thing. I am still your man. I will always be loyal to you. Please remember that. Insult my father. Say he was part of the plot to assassinate President Kennedy. Try to kidnap me. It doesn’t matter to me. Loyalty is my honor.

Trump: Thank you Ted. I appreciate it.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 08:11:49 AM

Again. How could the authorities have been caught by surprise? By the most blatant coup attempt in history, bar none.

Here is a post I made back in December 21, under “Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2”

President Trump has called upon the Proud Boys and their allies to show up in Washington D. C. on January 6, promising things will be wild, i.e.: I’m counting on you guys to make it wild. It appears that Trump is under the delusion, I hope it’s a delusion, that the protesters, if wild enough, can be useful. Justify declaring Martial Law or something. Can the Washington D. C. police handle what might descend of them from large parts of the country?

What about the National Guard? As I understand it, the National Guard can be controlled by the President or the Governor. But there is no governor for Washington D. C. So that leaves President Trump. And it doesn’t sound like he wants law and order on that day.

However, in Washington D. C., the National Guard is currently under the command of the Commanding General of the District of Columbia National Guard, U. S. Major General William J. Walker. In what I see as a potentially a greater threat to Democracy than the 9/11 attacks, the greatest threat to Washington D. C. since July 1864, it is up to General Walker to ensure Congress can do its Constitutional duty on January 6. I hope that General Walker is as alert to threats as General Lew Wallace was in 1864. I’m sure he is. In any case, all leave should be cancelled for the Washington D. C. police and the National Guard units in the area.

Trump was telegraphing what he wanted to do over twitter. He wanted the protesters to show up on January 6 and to “be wild”. The protesters knew what this meant. I knew what this meant. How could the authorities no know what this meant?

I was under the impression that the National Guard was under the command of Major General William J. Walker. But I guess he can’t do anything unless the president orders the unit to, or gives governor of that state, or, in this case, the mayor of Washington D. C., the authority to deploy it. Naturally, Trump did not do this. So, while I was under the illusion that things should be alright, they weren’t. Because it was really Trump who effectively controlled them.

He refused his frantic requests from his advisors to release the National Guard while he watched the riot at the Capitol on TV. It appears that only after he was certain that the Congressman and the Senators had successfully escaped the rioters, and that the coup had failed, that he gave the mayor control of the National Guard.

Unlike 1864, we did not have an alert General Lew Wallace, who made a stand at Monocacy, that slowed up the Confederate II Corps just long enough for the Union VI Corps to barely reach Washington D. C. and save the capital. As an aside, Lew Wallace, curiously enough, is not most famous for saving the Union but for being the author of “Ben-Hur”, later made into a movie with Charlton Heston.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 08:36:11 AM
[urlhttps://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/6-senators-and-121-house-republicans-are-still-objecting-to-the-election-results/ar-BB1cxqqf?ocid=msedgntp[/url]

3 Senators have dropped their objections to the voting:
Sens. Kelly Loeffler (R-GA)
Steve Daines (R-MT)
James Lankford (R-OK)
are among the Republicans no longer objecting to the results of the presidential election following a day of violence and destruction by President Donald Trump’s supporters at the Capitol — but not everyone has changed their minds.

Sens. Ted Cruz (R-TX)
Josh Hawley (R-MO)
Cindy Hyde-Smith (R-MS)
John Kennedy (R-LA)
Tommy Tuberville (R-AL)
Roger Marshall (R-KS)
maintained their objections — even though they’re unfounded, won’t be going anywhere, and further amplify lies about a rigged election. (The objection did not obtain a majority of votes in either chamber, and failed.)

You have got to be kidding me. Last night, before the riot, the voters of Georgia, of Georgia, voted down two Republicans who backed Trump’s efforts to overthrow the election, before the coup. These same two candidate won the most votes (but not 50%) just 9 weeks earlier. But their backing Trump’s attempt to overturn the vote in Congress convinced, not many, but enough, Republicans to turn against them.

What do you think the voters are going to do to you for continuing to support the overturn of the election, after the coup attempt in the Capitol?

And there are 121 Republican House of Representatives who continue to support the overturning of the election, who continue to support the coup. There are only 211 Republican’s in the house. Only 90 are not committing political suicide.

What are they thinking? 2022 will be like no election we have never seen before. Go to Las Vegas and bet on Blue.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 10:30:36 AM
When Biden speaks on camera, I feel calmer. I actually feel calmer. Two more weeks. Just two more weeks.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 10:35:44 AM
Watched the last twenty minutes of the certification in Congress. Mike Pence was very good. Very dignified. The ceremony, going state by state, was, again, calming. When they got to Wisconsin, I was expecting trouble. But, while House members objected, of course, the last Senator had withdrawn their objection and so there was no written objection and Pence rejected this. Then Wyoming, followed by a few brief statements of the summary of the count, a short prayer, a short statement by Pence and a sharp, crisp strike of the gravel and it was done. It was actually moving.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 10:40:30 AM
Now. Pence need to agree to using the 25th admendment. I don’t want to take time for impeachment. Get the cabinet together and vote. Congress has to go along. Two thirds for both the House and Senate needs to approve. And then Pence can be acting President.

There is some question of legality. There has been so much turmoil that much of the cabinet was not been approved by Congress but are acting cabinet members. The law does not say. I don’t care. Get it done. If four months from now the Supreme Court rules that this was unproper, it won’t matter. Get it done. Get Trump out of there now. Operation Warp Speed.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 07, 2021, 03:24:17 PM
Well, there’s our answer. Trump has control of the National Guard, until he turns it over to a governor, or in this case, the mayor.

So here is how it must of went down. Just as General Benedict Arnold order as many troops away from West Point, opening up the vital fortress of West Point, and possibly General George Washington himself, to capture by the British army, President Trump did something similar. He may have ordered the National Guard units as far away as possible. In any case, when the Capitol was seized, the mayor of Washington D. C. frantically tried to contact the President, to release the control of the National Guard to her immediately. Trumps advisers told him he must do so. But he kept himself out of communication.

The military would not support his coup attempt. The National Guard would not support his coup attempt. The Washington D. C. police would not support his coup attempt. So, he ordered the only force he had some control over. The Proud Boys and their cohorts. And made certain that the National Guard was not ready and could not be used by anyone as long as possible. And they came within a minute or two of seizing the Vice President, Senators, Congressmen and the ballots themselves. And could be threatened to declare Trump the winner. Unbelievable. Trump only relented when it because clear that they have come close, but failed.

Why could this not have been seen in advance? I remember checking to see who was the general who was head of the local National Guard a couple of weeks ago and I thought everything was going to be taken care of.
Joe: But your account isn't accurate. The White House did authorize the callup of the National Guard. And the DC Mayor called them up per that story I linked to. WH, according to the account, had to intervene to get Trump to issue the order to do so. So it did happen.

From the Haberman/NY Times tweet: "Trump initially rebuffed and resisted requests to mobilize the National Guard, according to a person with knowledge of the vents. It required intervention from White House officials to get it done, according to the person with knowledge of the events."

So they were mobilized. The DC Mayor ordered it done. I guess that, unlike states, the Mayor of DC has to get the approval of the president first? Governors can do this unilaterally since they are regulated by states, i.e., state militias. In any case, they were called up.

But where were they? Here's a good question: "What the hell was law enforcement on Capitol Hill thinking by not having secured the Capitol today?” former Defense Secretary Leon Panetta asked on CNBC, calling it one of his great disappointments." I'll say.

And the Capitol Police - as opposed to the DC police (I used to live in Northern Virginia and went to DC all of the time) - was AWOL. There are 2200+ Capitol Police officers.

I think you're making more of this than it appears. This was a bunch of rabble, people with perceived grievances who were "gas lighted" by Trump. There was no chance of them overturning the government. Look at them! Disgraceful and pathetic.

The responsibility for this disgrace is due to Trump formost. And these horrible followers. But we do have to ask about the security. After 9/11 all sorts of measures were taken to prevent attacks on the Capitol. What happened here?
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 07, 2021, 06:04:54 PM
From "Allahpundit" at the conservative website "Hotair":
 
"An intolerable reality, that Biden has won and that Republicans are more loyal to America’s civic traditions than to Trump, has finally intruded into a paranoid, conspiratorial, pathologically narcissistic mind. No one knows how he might lash out as he struggles to cope with that reality. That is to say, the 25th Amendment talk isn’t just a backdoor coup option in this case. It’s defensible on the merits. The president may be honestly psychologically “incapacitated” to a degree that he’s unable to carry out his duties."

Either a "hard" 25th Amendment - a formal statement by his Cabinet that he can no longer perform the duties of the offices - or a "soft" one has to be carried out.  The "soft" one is that his people simply ignore his orders and listen to Pence. Meanwhile, let him stew in his realization that it's over. He'll be unable to perform so others step in. This depression may not last for two weeks; when he comes out of it what will happen?

Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 06:32:19 PM
Joe: But your account isn't accurate. The White House did authorize the callup of the National Guard. And the DC Mayor called them up per that story I linked to. WH, according to the account, had to intervene to get Trump to issue the order to do so. So it did happen.

From the Haberman/NY Times tweet: "Trump initially rebuffed and resisted requests to mobilize the National Guard, according to a person with knowledge of the vents. It required intervention from White House officials to get it done, according to the person with knowledge of the events."

So they were mobilized. The DC Mayor ordered it done. I guess that, unlike states, the Mayor of DC has to get the approval of the president first? Governors can do this unilaterally since they are regulated by states, i.e., state militias. In any case, they were called up.

But where were they? Here's a good question: "What the hell was law enforcement on Capitol Hill thinking by not having secured the Capitol today?” former Defense Secretary Leon Panetta asked on CNBC, calling it one of his great disappointments." I'll say.

And the Capitol Police - as opposed to the DC police (I used to live in Northern Virginia and went to DC all of the time) - was AWOL. There are 2200+ Capitol Police officers.

I think you're making more of this than it appears. This was a bunch of rabble, people with perceived grievances who were "gas lighted" by Trump. There was no chance of them overturning the government. Look at them! Disgraceful and pathetic.

The responsibility for this disgrace is due to Trump formost. And these horrible followers. But we do have to ask about the security. After 9/11 all sorts of measures were taken to prevent attacks on the Capitol. What happened here?

No. I got it right. During the days leading up to the riot, during that morning, during the first hour or two of the storming of the Capitol, Trump had control of the National Guard. That is why they were not deployed, in force, guarding the steps of the Capitol, like they were last summer during the Black Lives Matter peaceful protest.

Yes, after Trump delayed for over an hour, with his aides imploring him to release them to the control of the mayor, and it was clear from the TV coverage which he was studying intently, that the Senators and Congressmen had escaped the rioters and were now beyond their reach, he gave up and released the National Guard to the control of the mayor.

Yes, eventually, eventually, the mayor got control of the National Guard. But not during the hours of the greatest peril to our intuitions. During those hours, Trump had control, at least enough control to keep them away from the Capitol.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 06:40:16 PM

From "Allahpundit" at the conservative website "Hotair":
 
"An intolerable reality, that Biden has won and that Republicans are more loyal to America’s civic traditions than to Trump, has finally intruded into a paranoid, conspiratorial, pathologically narcissistic mind. No one knows how he might lash out as he struggles to cope with that reality. That is to say, the 25th Amendment talk isn’t just a backdoor coup option in this case. It’s defensible on the merits. The president may be honestly psychologically “incapacitated” to a degree that he’s unable to carry out his duties."

Either a "hard" 25th Amendment - a formal statement by his Cabinet that he can no longer perform the duties of the offices - or a "soft" one has to be carried out.  The "soft" one is that his people simply ignore his orders and listen to Pence. Meanwhile, let him stew in his realization that it's over. He'll be unable to perform so others step in. This depression may not last for two weeks; when he comes out of it what will happen?

Now that I have had a little time to think about it, I guess the “soft” option is the best. I don’t care if it’s against the rules. Everyone has to understand that they take the orders from Pence. The nuclear “football” needs to accompany Pence. Every diplomat in the world has to inform every government in the world that during the next two weeks, Pence is firmly in charge.

Trump needs to be isolated in the White House until the early hours of January 20. Like a mentally sick man. No access to Twitter, or Facebook or the internet. No speaking appearances of TV.

This should prevent a coordinated assault by his devoted followers.

P. S. It would also help if the Senators and Congressmen realized that we are in a new era. The voting in Georgia is a strong indication that the Trump era is over. Trump has lost a fraction of his supporters. Not a large fraction, but enough. Just losing a few percent of the people who would vote for him or for the people he endorses is very bad. If I was a politician, I wouldn’t want his endorsement, not for the General Election. And probably not for the primary either because the voters will remember in the following November. I think my best chance would be to ask Trump to stay out of it and hope that doesn’t make him mad.

Just glancing at the ceremonies last night, it appears that maybe the realization is settling in. There were early objections to the accepting, with a couple of hours of debate, for many of the states, like Arizona and Pennsylvania. But by the time they got to Wisconsin, no Senator supported the objection. Not even Ted Cruz. It may be that he is starting to wise up.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 07:05:39 PM
Well, I wonder what’s on the agenda for today. Who’s up for a “protest march” on the Supreme Court? To try to “encourage” the justices to issue an emergency ruling. It is the “People’s Court” after all, isn’t it?
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 07:55:49 PM

Failures from yesterday.

1.   The Press
Just like 2000, the press missed the biggest story. The great question was “Does Florida Law allow a recounting of all the undervotes and all the overvotes in all the counties? And they could all be counted using uniform standards. The press did not investigate this. Instead, they took the word of Republican and Democratic spokesmen who basically said that Florida law was too messed up. This opened the door for Gore to request a biased partial manual recount of just four large counties, that contained 37.5 % of all the Gore votes but only 25% of the Bush votes. And the biased Florida State Supreme Court ordered such a biased recount, going against both Florida and Federal law. By the time we found out that the courts of Florida could order a fair recount of all the counties, it was too late, with just 4 days form the safe harbor date, and the court overseeing the recount known to be biased.

In 2020, one the great question was, with Trump openly telling his followers so “Stand down and stand by”, make sure you are there on January 6 in Washington D. C. “Be there . . . Be wild”, was:

Who has control of the National Guard in Washington D. C.?

As I posted back in December, I assumed that this was not a problem because no one was reporting a problem. I thought the commander of the men, or the mayor, or someone other than Trump, had command. It appears they did not. It was Trump who had effective control, at least as far as preventing them from guarding the Capitol.

Had this story been reported, I would have been alarmed, and various other people should have been alarmed. Instead, with this strike at American being telegraphed for weeks, everyone was caught by surprise.

2.   The Mayor of Washington D. C.

It is not just the press that dropped the ball. The mayor of Washington D. C. should have checked to see if she had control of the National Guard in the district. And if not, put out the alarm. Make pleas with the Governors of Virginia and Maryland to have their National Guard deployed in Washington D. C., in force, guarding the Capitol that morning. Trump is telegraphing this punch. This fact should rule over all other considerations, like “It would look bad”.

Yes, the mayor did well after the Capitol was assaulted. But early action would have been a lot more effective.

3.   Others

And there may be others. Did the commander of the National Guard in the district inform his superiors that he was handcuffed from deploying his men as he saw fit?
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 08:05:01 PM

Being Overly Concerned with “Image”

On November 24, 1963, the Dallas Police informed the press of when they were going to transfer Oswald out of the jail, and vulnerable to attack. This allowed a big crowd of reporters, dressed in suits and ties, to crowd in around Oswald, allowing Ruby, similarly dressed to make a close approach to Oswald. Why? Because the press told them, with Oswald’s black eye, if the police didn’t show that they were treating him correctly.

To avoid a minor bad look they ended up with a major bad look.


Similarly, on January 6, 2020, with Trump telegraphing this assault for weeks, the authorities did not move heaven and earth to insure there was a large National Guard presence, in uniform, intimidating, in mass, armed, and guarding all approaches to the Capitol. Like we saw last summer during the Black Lives Matters peaceful protest. Because it would “look bad”.

Again, to avoid a minor bad look they ended up with a major bad look. Again, with an assault telegraphed for weeks, this should not have been any kind of a consideration.

So, we end up with way too few Capitol police, largely not in armor, armed only with handguns, and ordered to not do anything to escalate the situation.

Image is not everything.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 07, 2021, 08:10:24 PM
Now that I have had a little time to think about it, I guess the “soft” option is the best. I don’t care if it’s against the rules. Everyone has to understand that they take the orders from Pence. The nuclear “football” needs to accompany Pence. Every diplomat in the world has to inform every government in the world that during the next two weeks, Pence is firmly in charge.

Trump needs to be isolated in the White House until the early hours of January 20. Like a mentally sick man. No access to Twitter, or Facebook or the internet. No speaking appearances of TV.

This should prevent a coordinated assault by his devoted followers.

P. S. It would also help if the Senators and Congressmen realized that we are in a new era. The voting in Georgia is a strong indication that the Trump era is over. Trump has lost a fraction of his supporters. Not a large fraction, but enough. Just losing a few percent of the people who would vote for him or for the people he endorses is very bad. If I was a politician, I wouldn’t want his endorsement, not for the General Election. And probably not for the primary either because the voters will remember in the following November. I think my best chance would be to ask Trump to stay out of it and hope that doesn’t make him mad.

Just glancing at the ceremonies last night, it appears that maybe the realization is settling in. There were early objections to the accepting, with a couple of hours of debate, for many of the states, like Arizona and Pennsylvania. But by the time they got to Wisconsin, no Senator supported the objection. Not even Ted Cruz. It may be that he is starting to wise up.
Trump still is THE lawfully elected president; if his cabinet circumvents his authority isn't this sort of a "soft" coup? We condemn the attempted insurrection yesterday, the attempt to subvert the Constitution and then we advocate a different type of circumvention of the Constitution. Aren't we?

The differences are obvious. But both are rejecting the rule of law. This is why I said above that we are hamstrung: how do we legally respond to Trump? We can't illegally do so; then we are like him. We have to - must - use the law.

Remember the scene from "Man for All Seasons"? Roper tells Thomas More that he, More, needs to "arrest that man". More says, "For what reason? He's broken no laws." More later says that he'd even give the Devil the benefit of the law. Because if you ignore all of the laws, destroy them, then where do you turn when the Devil comes after you? You have no laws anymore to defend yourself. More concludes: "Yes, I'd given the Devil the benefit of the law for my own safety's sake."

So if we allow this Cabinet to take over power, how do we prevent the next one from doing so? For the wrong reasons? 


Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 08:22:08 PM
MAGA hats on sale at Walmart. Half priced. Don’t miss the deal.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 07, 2021, 08:24:11 PM
On January 20, we will make America great again. Or at least a lot less ridiculous.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 08, 2021, 12:45:21 AM
The head of the Capitol Police just turned in his resignation. Speaker Pelosi called for him to step down yesterday.

"Chief Steven Sund said Thursday that police had planned for a free speech demonstration and did not expect the violent attack. He said it was unlike anything he’d experienced in his 30 years in law enforcement."

Well, that's a complete failure of preparation. It was obvious for several weeks that there was a significant potential for violence.

story/link: https://apnews.com/article/trump-25th-amendment-schumer-capitol-992705542ceebba6596f2d6682b476e7
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 08, 2021, 01:12:17 AM
Vice President elect Harris now makes things worse (somehow) with this absurd claim:

“We witnessed two systems of justice when we saw one that let extremists storm the United States Capitol, and another that released tear gas on peaceful protesters last summer. The American people have expressed rightly outrage. We know this is unacceptable. We know we should be better than this."

Who "let extremists storm the United States Capitol", Madame Vice President? Let? Did you see the videos? The police were unprepared and overwhelmed by the mob. They didn't "let" this happen.

The police fought the mob off using tear gas, pepper spray, flash bang devices and night sticks and police inside the building actually shot and killed a member of the mob.

Okay, so you're referring to Trump. I get it. But we don't need this type of speech; we're trying to get rid of someone who uses it all of the time. This is campaign rhetoric and the election is over.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 08, 2021, 01:26:11 AM

Trump has been publicly calling for this attack for weeks, with hints even back in September. Easily the most brazen, well telegraphed coup in history. I mean Trump was an idiot to come up with such a plan but it came damm close to working, to some extent. Get him some revenge against Pence and others who “betrayed” him, if nothing else.
The Pentagon asked the U. S. Capitol Police if it needed National Guard manpower. On multiple occasions. And were always turned down, most recently as of last Sunday.
The FBI has been monitoring the situation and seen clear signs of trouble, but the Capitol police turned them down.
As the mob approached the Capitol the FBI made one last plea to allow all available agents to come but they were turned down one last time.

On Wednesday, after barely escaping with her life, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi called upon Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund to resign, immediate.
Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund: Hmmm. I don’t know. I’ll have to sleep on that.
Today, he submitted his resignation.

I am credulous that Sund could not see this coming. With all the public messages from Trump. “Be there”. “It will be wild”. “Don’t miss it”.

Question:

Is Sund a Trump supporter?

Did he leave his officers, the Vice President, the Senators and the Congressmen in obvious danger because he thought it was Trump’s best chance at remaining as President?


For now, I am not satisfied with Sund being fired. I would like this looked into.

Never mind my criticism of the Mayor or the head of the National Guard in Washington D. C. Everything points to two men who made this happen. Trump and Sund. Was Sund just a dunce or is there more to this?
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 08, 2021, 02:23:17 AM
From the AP: "Three days before supporters of President Donald Trump rioted at the Capitol, the Pentagon asked the U.S Capitol Police if it needed National Guard manpower. And as the mob descended on the building Wednesday, Justice Department leaders reached out to offer up FBI agents. The police turned them down both times, according to senior defense officials and two people familiar with the matter."

And this was reportedly the reason (or one of them):
"Still stinging from the uproar over the violent response by law enforcement to protests last June near the White House, officials also were intent on avoiding any appearance that the federal government was deploying active duty or National Guard troops against Americans."

We're getting all sorts of conflicting reports. If this is true, this indicates that it wasn't the White House that held back protection, it was the Capitol Police that rejected the offer of additional security/personnel.

And the chief security officer for the House of Representatives has resigned. Speaker Pelosi asked for his resignation.

This appears to me to be old fashioned incompetence and nothing conspiratorial.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 08, 2021, 03:34:40 AM
From the AP: "Three days before supporters of President Donald Trump rioted at the Capitol, the Pentagon asked the U.S Capitol Police if it needed National Guard manpower. And as the mob descended on the building Wednesday, Justice Department leaders reached out to offer up FBI agents. The police turned them down both times, according to senior defense officials and two people familiar with the matter."

And this was reportedly the reason (or one of them):
"Still stinging from the uproar over the violent response by law enforcement to protests last June near the White House, officials also were intent on avoiding any appearance that the federal government was deploying active duty or National Guard troops against Americans."

We're getting all sorts of conflicting reports. If this is true, this indicates that it wasn't the White House that held back protection, it was the Capitol Police that rejected the offer of additional security/personnel.

And the chief security officer for the House of Representatives has resigned. Speaker Pelosi asked for his resignation.

This appears to me to be old fashioned incompetence and nothing conspiratorial.

I agree. Nothing conspiratorial. But maybe Sund giving minimum protection in the hopes of helping Trump. But probably just a series of bad decisions by Capitol Police Chief Sund. It would be unlikely that both Trump and Sund would be equally delusional and both think that this could work.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 08, 2021, 05:59:58 PM
There's lots of finger pointing and fanny covering here so it's hard to discern what happened. Clearly though the Capitol Police were simply unprepared for this. Just in terms of having enough force - officers - on the scene. Sund didn't need approval, I don't believe, from anyone to put more officers out.

This reminds me a bit of James Hosty's account of the assassination. He was the FBI agent assigned to monitor the Oswalds (both of them). He said in his book ("Assignment Oswald") that two days - two - before the visit he was informed by his superiors of the details of the President's visit. He claimed there was almost no coordination between the FBI and Secret Service and that the SS provided the agency with "very restrictive criteria for threats to the President." That's his account, of course; so take it with a large dose of skepticism.

Forrest Sorrels, the SS agent in charge in Dallas, said that if he had been told about Oswald that they would have taken him in before the visit for questioning. But they were never informed.

So the FBI is pointing its finger at the SS, the SS back at the FBI. The DPD criticized the FBI and on and on. That sounds like what is happening here. "I didn't mess up, they did."
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 10, 2021, 05:49:04 AM
There's lots of finger pointing and fanny covering here so it's hard to discern what happened. Clearly though the Capitol Police were simply unprepared for this. Just in terms of having enough force - officers - on the scene. Sund didn't need approval, I don't believe, from anyone to put more officers out.

This reminds me a bit of James Hosty's account of the assassination. He was the FBI agent assigned to monitor the Oswalds (both of them). He said in his book ("Assignment Oswald") that two days - two - before the visit he was informed by his superiors of the details of the President's visit. He claimed there was almost no coordination between the FBI and Secret Service and that the SS provided the agency with "very restrictive criteria for threats to the President." That's his account, of course; so take it with a large dose of skepticism.

Forrest Sorrels, the SS agent in charge in Dallas, said that if he had been told about Oswald that they would have taken him in before the visit for questioning. But they were never informed.

So the FBI is pointing its finger at the SS, the SS back at the FBI. The DPD criticized the FBI and on and on. That sounds like what is happening here. "I didn't mess up, they did."

(https://i.postimg.cc/pdYjdprv/lbj-hoover.png)
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 10, 2021, 06:40:49 PM
From yesterday's (1/9/21) Wall Street Journal account of the preparations for the protests/rally:

"In the days before the Jan. 6 rally, local and federal officials took a different tack in their preparations.

[Washingont DC Mayor] Ms. Bowser, in a letter to federal officials Monday, urged a light security footprint for Wednesday’s protests to avoid the type of show of force that inflamed tensions during last year’s racial-justice protests.

Military and defense officials offered assistance and prepared what all sides saw as a sufficient number of D.C. National Guard soldiers—about 340—to perform support duties such as traffic management, military officials said.

The U.S. Capitol Police, which is responsible for security at the Capitol and answers to Congress, twice told the Pentagon that no additional support was needed, according to officials and a Defense Department timeline. Local police generally require permission from Capitol Police to control crowds on the grounds of congressional buildings.

'The general attitude from Capitol Police was: ‘We got this. We do this all time,’” said a U.S. official familiar with the discussions."

Full story here (account needed): https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-capitol-riot-communications-between-agencies-hampered-forceful-response-11610242709
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 11, 2021, 05:54:06 AM

'The general attitude from Capitol Police was: ‘We got this. We do this all time,’” said a U.S. official familiar with the discussions."

They don’t deal with a treasonous President, all the time.
They don’t deal with a treasonous President, convincing tens of millions of Americans that the election was stolen from them, all the time.
They don’t deal with a treasonous President, calling upon his most devoted followers, to descend on Washington D. C. on a critical day for electing our President, with “Be there, it will be wild”, all the time.
They need to understand, that with the success of MAGA, that there might be ten times as many on January 20.
They need to understand that there is a significant chance that they will be as surprised on January 20, as they were on January 6, if they are expecting a January 6 number of MAGA people to show up.

They need to understand, that we are not in Kansas anymore.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 11, 2021, 07:02:21 PM
They don’t deal with a treasonous President, all the time.
They don’t deal with a treasonous President, convincing tens of millions of Americans that the election was stolen from them, all the time.
They don’t deal with a treasonous President, calling upon his most devoted followers, to descend on Washington D. C. on a critical day for electing our President, with “Be there, it will be wild”, all the time.
They need to understand, that with the success of MAGA, that there might be ten times as many on January 20.
They need to understand that there is a significant chance that they will be as surprised on January 20, as they were on January 6, if they are expecting a January 6 number of MAGA people to show up.

They need to understand, that we are not in Kansas anymore.

From the NY Times today (stating the obvious): "Poor planning and communication among a constellation of federal, state and local law enforcement agencies hamstrung the response to the rioting. Once the Capitol building was breached, a patchwork group of reinforcements was forced to try to navigate a labyrinthine complex of unfamiliar passages and byways that would prove dangerous."

How many times have we seen this through the years? These bureaucracies not talking to one another, turf battles over control, patchwork organization, no coordination, in-fighting.

It's why, for one reason, these JFK conspiracy theories about multiple agencies conspiring to kill JFK, frame an innocent person, engineer a fake investigation and then cover all of this up make no sense on so many levels. They simply can't pull it off in secret. Too many people, too many obstacles, too much bureaucratic independence.....It can't be done AND then kept secret for decades. And frankly, for me JFK simply wasn't the supposed threat to "them" that conspiracists think. There was no need, if you will, to remove him.
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Rick Plant on January 13, 2021, 09:58:22 AM
Congresswoman witnessed insurrectionists doing a 'reconnaissance tour' before the attack on the Capitol
https://www.rawstory.com/insurrectionists-did-reconnaissance-tour/
Title: Re: Assault on the Capitol
Post by: Joe Elliott on January 18, 2021, 12:26:24 AM
From the NY Times today (stating the obvious): "Poor planning and communication among a constellation of federal, state and local law enforcement agencies hamstrung the response to the rioting. Once the Capitol building was breached, a patchwork group of reinforcements was forced to try to navigate a labyrinthine complex of unfamiliar passages and byways that would prove dangerous."

How many times have we seen this through the years? These bureaucracies not talking to one another, turf battles over control, patchwork organization, no coordination, in-fighting.

It's why, for one reason, these JFK conspiracy theories about multiple agencies conspiring to kill JFK, frame an innocent person, engineer a fake investigation and then cover all of this up make no sense on so many levels. They simply can't pull it off in secret. Too many people, too many obstacles, too much bureaucratic independence.....It can't be done AND then kept secret for decades. And frankly, for me JFK simply wasn't the supposed threat to "them" that conspiracists think. There was no need, if you will, to remove him.

Very good point. They can’t even form a conspiracy to protect the Capitol.

Get everyone to agree to beef up security at the Capitol because of a very obvious threat that the President has been talking about for weeks? No. Bad optics. Get everyone on board to kill the President? Sure, no problem.

From the NY Times today (stating the obvious): "Poor planning and communication among a constellation of federal, state and local law enforcement agencies hamstrung the response to the rioting. Once the Capitol building was breached, a patchwork group of reinforcements was forced to try to navigate a labyrinthine complex of unfamiliar passages and byways that would prove dangerous."

How many times have we seen this through the years? These bureaucracies not talking to one another, turf battles over control, patchwork organization, no coordination, in-fighting.

It's why, for one reason, these JFK conspiracy theories about multiple agencies conspiring to kill JFK, frame an innocent person, engineer a fake investigation and then cover all of this up make no sense on so many levels. They simply can't pull it off in secret. Too many people, too many obstacles, too much bureaucratic independence.....It can't be done AND then kept secret for decades. And frankly, for me JFK simply wasn't the supposed threat to "them" that conspiracists think. There was no need, if you will, to remove him.

Very good point. They can’t even form a conspiracy to protect the Capitol.

Get everyone to agree to beef up security at the Capitol because of a very obvious threat that the President has been talking about for weeks? No. Bad optics. Get everyone on board to kill the President? Sure, no problem.

In 1963:
Dallas mayor and police on board? No. Bad optics. Needs to be a different city.
FBI on board? No. Bad optics. Needs to setup someone the FBI has not been investigating.