JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Richard Gilbride on October 28, 2020, 12:20:47 PM
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My most recent essay is now posted in the ESSAYS section at my website jfkinsidejob.com and you can reach it via http://www.jfkinsidejob.com/book-depository-as-a-potemkin-village
A careful study should make it clear that Roy Truly, Jack Dougherty, Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, Wesley Frazier and Lee Harvey Oswald were complicit in the assassination. They aided and abetted the Depository hit team and subsequently framed Oswald for the murder.
Without a confession from Wesley Frazier, this recent work may well be the most succinct picture that emerges of what really went on inside that building on November 22nd.
I hope that you find time soon to enjoy this effort.
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My most recent essay is now posted in the ESSAYS section at my website jfkinsidejob.com and you can reach it via http://www.jfkinsidejob.com/book-depository-as-a-potemkin-village
A careful study should make it clear that Roy Truly, Jack Dougherty, Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, Wesley Frazier and Lee Harvey Oswald were complicit in the assassination. They aided and abetted the Depository hit team and subsequently framed Oswald for the murder.
Without a confession from Wesley Frazier, this recent work may well be the most succinct picture that emerges of what really went on inside that building on November 22nd.
I hope that you find time soon to enjoy this effort.
Hi Richard, I read your essay with interest, also some extracts from your 2009 E-book, Matrix for Assassination . (I must admit I didn't delve too deeply into your section concerning "JFK'S clash with an above-top-secret UFO cabal.") You make some really huge claims and of course, that should mean some really huge evidence. However, you never actually give any!! Absolutely none!! Everything you claim is based on the word of a dead journalist named Elzie Glaze, a mysterious unnamed woman who later 'disappeared' and the work of William Weston. Have I missed anything?
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Your accusation is incorrect, Denis. My analysis about the Depository elevators is my very own. I have been for over a decade, since even before I wrote The Elevator Escape Theory in 2009. All of my investigative work is on my website, which evidently you have never familiarized yourself with. William Weston is the pioneer in TSBD complicity studies and Elzie Glaze's interviews with Shelley were written about by him (Weston).
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Your accusation is incorrect, Denis. My analysis about the Depository elevators is my very own. I have been for over a decade, since even before I wrote The Elevator Escape Theory in 2009. All of my investigative work is on my website, which evidently you have never familiarized yourself with. William Weston is the pioneer in TSBD complicity studies and Elzie Glaze's interviews with Shelley were written about by him (Weston).
Not really an accusation, more an observation. Elzie Glaze and William Weston are certainly prominent in the link you provided. So I should ignore those parts and just read the Depository elevators section then?
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The basics of the criminal situation inside the TSBD, involving the elevator behavior, is that the elevator system lost power entirely during the first minutes of the police search, and that the west freight elevator descended while first responder Marrion Baker was ascending the corner stairs. A careful re-read of The Book Depository as a Potemkin Village might help you appreciate that. I devoted the month of January on that essay and chose my words with the best precision I could. The evidence you are looking for is right in front of you, right there in the essay.
An earlier mega-essay from 2016, Inside Job, has sections in its first half called Dougherty on the Loose and Frazier and the Elevator Power that go into much greater detail about what they got away with; I really haven't changed my position on the specifics as regards their complicity. So that might be a good place to delve into for sharpening your critique.
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All of this reminds me of...? Richard, did you write this? -----
http://jfkinsidejob.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/INSIDE-JOB.pdf
A TSBD history--- https://www.jfk.org/the-assassination/history-of-the-texas-school-book-depository/
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Anything that's on my website jfkinsidejob.com was composed by me.
The Sixth Floor Museum's brief about the TSBD building doesn't include the factoid that the Rock Island Plow Co. was bought up by International Harvester about 1910.
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Amazon has a book by Richard Gilbride called:
Matrix for Assassination: The JFK Conspiracy
While the reviews of this book are generally positive (I don’t know of any Pro CT book that doesn’t have generally positive reviews), there was one review by a dcpurcell which said:
If this didn't have a chapter on UFO's and JFK that totally undermines its credibility as far as I'm concerned I'd have more respect for this book. Some of the chapters, especially on Marilyn Monroe, has apparently new and ground breaking information. Then when I got to the chapter on UFO's it went off the wall. This is why people call JFK researchers 'wackos' and so forth. It talks about moon colonies and alien treaties and JFK viewing UFO's and alien bodies. I tried and went through every JFK biography and reference I could and there was nothing to back up any reference he made specifically to JFK and UFO's. So I have to assume he made it up.
If you can't believe one thing then what else is false? So even the chapters I thought might be true or plausible I'm double-checking against other references. I believe that a conspiracy murdered JFK but I don't believe every bit of garbage that's thrown out there.
I do like facts. I don't like a steady stream of unknown sources and documents that can't be verified or referenced. Just a shred of credibility, please.
This review was clearly written by a CTer, who liked 90% of the book, but could not accept the chapter on UFOs.
Is this review accurate? JFK viewed UFO’s, alien bodies and reviewed alien treaties? Instead of mucking with the TSBD elevator, they could have used alien technology to use a space elevator to whisk anyone out of that building.
I wonder what would be the terms of a treaty made with aliens. So much to learn.
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Amazon has a book by Richard Gilbride called:
Matrix for Assassination: The JFK Conspiracy
While the reviews of this book are generally positive (I don’t know of any Pro CT book that doesn’t have generally positive reviews), there was one review by a dcpurcell which said:
This review was clearly written by a CTer, who liked 90% of the book, but could not accept the chapter on UFOs.
Is this review accurate? JFK viewed UFO’s, alien bodies and reviewed alien treaties? Instead of mucking with the TSBD elevator, they could have used alien technology to use a space elevator to whisk anyone out of that building.
I wonder what would be the terms of a treaty made with aliens. So much to learn.
Our treaty with the 'aliens' is still extant........ we're their version of our 'sit-coms' on TV, going back decades, I might add+ hardee-har-har....
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Our treaty with the 'aliens' is still extant........ we're their version of our 'sit-coms' on TV, going back decades, I might add+ hardee-har-har....
I wonder if JFK was assassinated not because he objected to our treaty with the aliens, but because he insisted that in order to be valid, it must be ratified by the full senate. But with all the blabbermouths there, all secrecy would be blown if this was done.
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I wonder if JFK was assassinated not because he objected to our treaty with the aliens, but because he insisted that in order to be valid, it must be ratified by the full senate. But with all the blabbermouths there, all secrecy would be blown if this was done.
At any rate, no problem getting rid of aliens; just broadcast Slim Whitman's music.
'Indian Love Call' Slim Whitman/ Mars Attacks
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At any rate, no problem getting rid of aliens; just broadcast Slim Whitman's music.
'Indian Love Call' Slim Whitman/ Mars Attacks
Yes. On the Voyager 1 and 2, instead of putting on the Golden Record the music of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Chuck Berry, they should have just gone with Slim Whitman. It would help protect us and clear the road for future space exploration.
But I would like to learn more about this alien treaty. Is there any video of Eisenhower getting off a plane at a military base holding up a piece of paper and declaring peace in our time?
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I've been busy with the election, and haven't read this thread for about a week.
Joe Elliot, who obviously hasn't read my 2009 book, critiques my credibility by referencing a reviewer, dcparnell, who states my book talks about "JFK viewing UFOs and alien bodies... there was nothing to back up any reference he specifically made... So I have to assume he made it up."
This reviewer didn't even bother to check the FOOTNOTES section at the back of the book which documents all of my sources. Lots of books and articles that aren't in the mainstream of JFK literature.
So reviewer dcparnells' mistaken impression gives Joe Elliot cause to question my credibility as to the TSBD elevator anomalies on November 22nd?
Has Joe even bothered reading any of the essays on my website about the TSBD, put together over 10+ years? Probably not.
Has Joe even bothered to read the essay that is the subject of this thread? I have to wonder.
Because it seems Joe simply wants to derail this thread and post whatever comedic irrelevancies about aliens that come to mind.
Why not discuss the specifics within The Book Depository as a Potemkin Village? Or are you even capable of that?
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I've been busy with the election, and haven't read this thread for about a week.
Joe Elliot, who obviously hasn't read my 2009 book, critiques my credibility by referencing a reviewer, dcparnell, who states my book talks about "JFK viewing UFOs and alien bodies... there was nothing to back up any reference he specifically made... So I have to assume he made it up."
This reviewer didn't even bother to check the FOOTNOTES section at the back of the book which documents all of my sources. Lots of books and articles that aren't in the mainstream of JFK literature.
So reviewer dcparnells' mistaken impression gives Joe Elliot cause to question my credibility as to the TSBD elevator anomalies on November 22nd?
Has Joe even bothered reading any of the essays on my website about the TSBD, put together over 10+ years? Probably not.
Has Joe even bothered to read the essay that is the subject of this thread? I have to wonder.
Because it seems Joe simply wants to derail this thread and post whatever comedic irrelevancies about aliens that come to mind.
Why not discuss the specifics within The Book Depository as a Potemkin Village? Or are you even capable of that?
No, I have not read your book nor taken up wearing tin foil hats. However, it isn’t just the dcparnell who mentions the connection between you, the JFK assassination and UFO’s. A google search of:
"richard gilbride" jfk ufo
Comes up with 1,140 results.
Question 1:
Do you deny linking the JFK assassination with ufos in any of your books?
Question 2:
Do believe the government is covering up the truth about the existence of aliens from outer space visiting the earth?
Question 3:
What do you believe is the connection between the JFK assassination and ufos?
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This isn't a JFK & UFOs thread. The Google search you mention must rely solely on the last chapter of my 2009 book Matrix for Assassination. There isn't anywhere else I've written, other than in response in a couple of posts in a 2010 JFK Lancer thread, about that topic. Now your Google search has 1,141 results.
To answer your questions:
1) Do you deny linking the JFK assassination with ufos in any of your books? No.
2) Do you believe the government is covering up the truth about the existence of aliens from outer space visiting the earth? Yes, they have covered up most of it.
3) What do you believe is the connection between the JFK assassination and ufos? My belief is that President Kennedy was proceeding to eventually declassify some of the "above top secret" Tesla electromagnetics technology so that humankind could derive some benefit. That process involved disclosing that the military had "back-engineered" some technology from retrieved spacecraft. This was one of many reasons to eliminate him.
That's all I will discuss as regards "JFK & UFOs" in this thread. You should start a thread about that, if that's what you want to talk about.
If you go to my website jfkinsidejob.com you will see a PHYSICS article I put together in 1996 which covers new designs I created for graphing the elements, isotopes & subatomic particles. I was awarded US Patent D396,060 for my design of the elements.
You will also find a dozen or so ESSAYS about the Texas School Book Depository, which has been the focal point of my JFK research since 2009. "A Candle Burned on the Table" is a short one and might be a good place to start. I have 35+ years in the trades and that has given me a lot of common sense about buildings.
Until you respond to the subject of this thread, or to one of those essays, I have nothing to discuss with you. I will not be responding to anything that you or anyone else posts about JFK & UFOs.
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This isn't a JFK & UFOs thread. The Google search you mention must rely solely on the last chapter of my 2009 book Matrix for Assassination. There isn't anywhere else I've written, other than in response in a couple of posts in a 2010 JFK Lancer thread, about that topic. Now your Google search has 1,141 results.
To answer your questions:
1) Do you deny linking the JFK assassination with ufos in any of your books? No.
2) Do you believe the government is covering up the truth about the existence of aliens from outer space visiting the earth? Yes, they have covered up most of it.
3) What do you believe is the connection between the JFK assassination and ufos? My belief is that President Kennedy was proceeding to eventually declassify some of the "above top secret" Tesla electromagnetics technology so that humankind could derive some benefit. That process involved disclosing that the military had "back-engineered" some technology from retrieved spacecraft. This was one of many reasons to eliminate him.
That's all I will discuss as regards "JFK & UFOs" in this thread. You should start a thread about that, if that's what you want to talk about.
If you go to my website jfkinsidejob.com you will see a PHYSICS article I put together in 1996 which covers new designs I created for graphing the elements, isotopes & subatomic particles. I was awarded US Patent D396,060 for my design of the elements.
You will also find a dozen or so ESSAYS about the Texas School Book Depository, which has been the focal point of my JFK research since 2009. "A Candle Burned on the Table" is a short one and might be a good place to start. I have 35+ years in the trades and that has given me a lot of common sense about buildings.
Until you respond to the subject of this thread, or to one of those essays, I have nothing to discuss with you. I will not be responding to anything that you or anyone else posts about JFK & UFOs.
It may well suit your present purpose to 'ban' us from discussing a part of your work you would obviously prefer hidden but that's not how it works, is it? It's only by studying all your work that we can ascertain the validity of the part of your work you wish for us to study. I can well understand why on this forum which isn't, generally speaking, filled with nuts n kooks you would want your work on JFK & UFOs to remain 'out of bounds' but again, that's not how it works. It seems you're attempting to present a facade of respectable scholarly research whilst hiding the, shall we say, 'less respectable scholarly research' behind that facade. In short, it's your very own work presented on this forum that's really the "Potemkin Village".
"By Potemkin Village we mean any structure built to deceive - a false front intending to hide
a defective or negative situation.
This metaphor originated as a Russian cultural myth in the late 1700s, and we owe it to the
governor of the war-damaged Crimean peninsula, Grigorii Potemkin, who was hoping to
impress his visiting empress, Catherine the Great, by propping up hollow facades of villages
at her expected stops. These were elaborately decorated and populated with peasantfolk."
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In short, it's your very own work presented on this forum that's really the "Potemkin Village".
Ouch!
Had a quick look through your essay again to see if I was missing anything and I wasn't.
At least in a Potemkin village the facades are real.
In a company the size of the TSBD you find three tenuous leads that are maybe, possibly, perhaps something to do with your, apparently, a priori assumption the TSBD is a front. You acknowledge this really nebulous, non-evidence doesn't really support your assumption the TSBD is a front (that's really big of you), so what is the killer, indisputable, smoking gun that leaves us with no doubt that the TSBD was one of these "cut-outs for arms shipments to Cuban exiles for the invasion"?
Somebody switched off the power to the elevators for a few minutes!
Well I'm sold, can't really argue with that ... oh, wait on a minute.......stairs ???
PS: Surely you've seen the photo of Bill Shelley and Oswald in New Orleans. Stick that in there for a bit of substance as weaving smoke is tricky at the best of times.
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In short, it's your very own work presented on this forum that's really the "Potemkin Village".
I would like to echo Dan’s opinion. Denis’s post is spot on. Richard would like to present the “better” half of his theory, the alleged involvement in the conspiracy to kill the President by the employees of the TSBD, while keeping hidden the most absurd aspects of his theory, the connections to the government coverups of UFO’s with the assassination.
Believe me, if any LNer here made various arguments as to why Oswald was the lone assassin, and in addition, claimed that Oswald was motivated because he feared that Kennedy was about to reveal the truth about UFO’s, which Oswald learned about while in the Marines and taught to operate radar sets based on alien technology, this aspect of their theory would not be off limits. It would be front and center in the CTers posts against his arguments.
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Mr. Dan O'meara, I do not argue that the TSBD was a front for smuggling arms to the Cubans. You imply, incorrectly, that my argument is that the elevator anomalies are the "smoking gun" for the building's use as a front.
What I am arguing is that the TSBD's phony portrayal as an upstanding schoolbook business is the reason for viewing it as a Potemkin Village.
The elevator shut-off occurred just as the police were beginning to search the building; it wasn't mentioned until the spring testimonies of Adams and Mooney (it was reported by Mooney, but not further reported by his boss Decker); there wasn't any other mention of this shut-off, nor of when power was restored; it didn't make it any after-action reports of the first-responding Treasury agents, since these reports never surfaced.
Nothing suspicious there?
Mr. Denis Pointing and Mr. Joe Elliot, what in tarnation does 2009 work on JFK & UFOs have to do with the subject matter of this thread, a 2020 essay that considers the TSBD a Potemkin Village? Are we to have a discussion of every nuance of my body of work on the Kennedy assassination, and 7 zillion days later get back to the 2020 essay? I think I made it clear that I haven't pushed the UFO topic, and have focused on the TSBD since that 2009 book. And that I have science qualifications to back up my exploration of science-fictionesque topics.
Right now it doesn't appear to me that either of you are able to focus on what's in the 2020 essay. You display contempt prior to investigation. Is this perhaps due to a substance abuse issue, which is your own personal Potemkin Village?
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Mr. Dan O'meara, I do not argue that the TSBD was a front for smuggling arms to the Cubans. You imply, incorrectly, that my argument is that the elevator anomalies are the "smoking gun" for the building's use as a front.
What I am arguing is that the TSBD's phony portrayal as an upstanding schoolbook business is the reason for viewing it as a Potemkin Village.
The elevator shut-off occurred just as the police were beginning to search the building; it wasn't mentioned until the spring testimonies of Adams and Mooney (it was reported by Mooney, but not further reported by his boss Decker); there wasn't any other mention of this shut-off, nor of when power was restored; it didn't make it any after-action reports of the first-responding Treasury agents, since these reports never surfaced.
Nothing suspicious there?
"You imply, incorrectly, that my argument is that the elevator anomalies are the "smoking gun" for the building's use as a front."
But in your essay you write:
"This issue singlehandedly indicates that Book Depository employees were complicit in the assassination."
You present your power outage as a smoking gun that the employees were involved in the plot to kill the President (singlehandedly indicates) and, by implication, the TSBD is a front. It's right there in your essay.
Can you explain the point of the power outage, what purpose it served? (remember by each of the elevators are a set of stairs)
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Mr. Denis Pointing and Mr. Joe Elliot, what in tarnation does 2009 work on JFK & UFOs have to do with the subject matter of this thread, a 2020 essay that considers the TSBD a Potemkin Village? Are we to have a discussion of every nuance of my body of work on the Kennedy assassination, and 7 zillion days later get back to the 2020 essay? I think I made it clear that I haven't pushed the UFO topic, and have focused on the TSBD since that 2009 book. And that I have science qualifications to back up my exploration of science-fictionesque topics.
Right now it doesn't appear to me that either of you are able to focus on what's in the 2020 essay. You display contempt prior to investigation. Is this perhaps due to a substance abuse issue, which is your own personal Potemkin Village?
So, because Joe and I dare to criticise your work we must be substance abuses...really!?!
OK, you want to remove the gloves, so be it;
As far as I'm concerned any 'researcher' that believes JFK's assassination was linked to interplanetary alien's and space ships is an absolute raving nut-job, who should urgently consider psychiatric assistance or lay off substance abuse for a while. Call me overly discerning if you wish but I find it extremely difficult to take seriously any work presented by an absolute raving nut-job and/or possible substance abuser.
You've tainted your own work and reputation by writing about JFK and little green men in flying saucers...that's not my fault.
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So, because Joe and I dare to criticise your work we must be substance abuses...really!?!
OK, you want to remove the gloves, so be it;
As far as I'm concerned any 'researcher' that believes JFK's assassination was linked to interplanetary alien's and space ships is an absolute raving nut-job, who should urgently consider psychiatric assistance or lay off substance abuse for a while. Call me overly discerning if you wish but I find it extremely difficult to take seriously any work presented by an absolute raving nut-job and/or possible substance abuser.
You've tainted your own work and reputation by writing about JFK and little green men in flying saucers...that's not my fault.
Call me overly discerning if you wish but I find it extremely difficult to take seriously any work presented by an absolute raving nut-job and/or possible substance abuser.
Nothing wrong with refusing to believe stuff like interplanetary alien's and space ships being involved in the coup d e'tat.......But you do believe the Warren Report don't you? That indicates that your reasoning ability falls a little short.......
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Call me overly discerning if you wish but I find it extremely difficult to take seriously any work presented by an absolute raving nut-job and/or possible substance abuser.
Nothing wrong with refusing to believe stuff like interplanetary alien's and space ships being involved in the coup d e'tat.......But you do believe the Warren Report don't you? That indicates that your reasoning ability falls a little short.......
In its entirety? Not really, no. I've stated plenty of times over the years that, IMO, the WR has plenty of mistakes and inconsistencies in it and some of its top members were probably working to an agender to find LHO guilty and a lone nut. That the WC and I arrived at the same final conclusion is really little more than a coincidence. What I have noticed is that, when it suits you, you frequently use the WR to back up your theories/arguments. You quote it far more often than I do. Considering you're a rabid CT that indicates that your not only a hypocrite but your reasoning ability falls WIDELY short.......
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In its entirety? Not really, no. I've stated plenty of times over the years that, IMO, the WR has plenty of mistakes and inconsistencies in it and some of its top members were probably working to an agender to find LHO guilty and a lone nut. That the WC and I arrived at the same final conclusion is really little more than a coincidence. What I have noticed is that, when it suits you, you frequently use the WR to back up your theories/arguments. You quote it far more often than I do. Considering you're a rabid CT that indicates that your not only a hypocrite but your reasoning ability falls WIDELY short.......
when it suits you, you frequently use the WR to back up your theories/arguments.
Since you say that you've noticed that I frequently use the WR to back up my theories / arguments it should be very easy for you to cite something from the WR that I embrace. Please present that .....
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when it suits you, you frequently use the WR to back up your theories/arguments.
Since you say that you've noticed that I frequently use the WR to back up my theories / arguments it should be very easy for you to cite something from the WR that I embrace. Please present that .....
You're posting history is full of them. I'm not wasting my time, check for yourself. Listen, I know you're a lonely old man and all that but you really need to stop following me all over the forum. I realise you're desperate for attention and feel the need to communicate with people, even if it's only on forums but I'm not your friend, I don't wish to be your friend. Perhaps you could afford to pay someone to keep you company? I really do feel sorry for you etc but you need to stop stalking me. For your own good I'm going to put you on ignore...go pester someone else.
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You're posting history is full of them. I'm not wasting my time, check for yourself. Listen, I know you're a lonely old man and all that but you really need to stop following me all over the forum. I realise you're desperate for attention and feel the need to communicate with people, even if it's only on forums but I'm not your friend, I don't wish to be your friend. Perhaps you could afford to pay someone to keep you company? I really do feel sorry for you etc but you need to stop stalking me. For your own good I'm going to put you on ignore...go pester someone else.
Mr Poimtless....It appears to me that you're looking in a mirror......
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It may well suit your present purpose to 'ban' us from discussing a part of your work you would obviously prefer hidden but that's not how it works, is it?
He didn't say it was off-limits, he said it was off-topic. It's called poisoning the well -- a logical fallacy, and Elliott does it all the time. Whatever Gilbride's views on an unrelated subject are, they have no bearing on the argument presented here. Just like Michael Griffith's former writings on the civil war have no bearing on his arguments about the acoustical evidence.
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He didn't say it was off-limits, he said it was off-topic. It's called poisoning the well -- a logical fallacy, and Elliott does it all the time. Whatever Gilbride's views on an unrelated subject are, they have no bearing on the argument presented here. Just like Michael Griffith's former writings on the civil war have no bearing on his arguments about the acoustical evidence.
I'm afraid I don't accept that John, if I'm being asked to read someone's research, not just a post but essays etc, then I'm also going to take a look at anything else they've written, that helps me establish their credibility and honesty. That would be true of a LN writer as well as a CT writer. I'll make no apology for admitting, that as soon as I read that Gilbride had authored a book that included chapters claiming that JFK had been assassinated because of aliens and flying saucers his credibility, in my eyes, sank to zero. John, you work your way and allow me to work mine. Fair enough?
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He didn't say it was off-limits, he said it was off-topic. It's called poisoning the well -- a logical fallacy, and Elliott does it all the time. Whatever Gilbride's views on an unrelated subject are, they have no bearing on the argument presented here. Just like Michael Griffith's former writings on the civil war have no bearing on his arguments about the acoustical evidence.
CTers want a double standard. Certainly, when Gerald Posner got into trouble with over plagiarism, no CTer argued that none of these articles he was accused of plagiarizing had anything to do with the JFK assassination, therefore, this talk about plagiarism should be “off topic”. Nor did any LNer argue this.
Question:
Can any one point out a post on this forum or any forum where someone made the claim that bringing up Posner’s plagiarism is “off-topic”?
Question:
If a LNer ever stated somewhere else “I know that whatever the government tells me, I know this is true” that referring to this statement is “off-limits” or “off-topic”? Couldn’t a CTer point out that their views about the Warren Report are questionable because of this statement?
Question:
Why should the views of LNers, not directly connected to the JFK assassination, be considered “off-limits” but the views of CTers are?
And I should also point out, that Mr. Gilbride’s views about the U. S. Government’s involvement with, and covering up of, transactions with space aliens, is not a view of his that is unrelated to the JFK assassination. Because he believes that this was the reason, or a principle reason, for the government assassinating the President. So, it cannot be considered “off-topic”.
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CTers want a double standard. Certainly, when Gerald Posner got into trouble with over plagiarism, no CTer argued that none of these articles he was accused of plagiarizing had anything to do with the JFK assassination, therefore, this talk about plagiarism should be “off topic”. Nor did any LNer argue this.
I would. His arguments about the JFK assassination are either correct and supportable or they are not. The fact that he may have plagiarized some unrelated content has no bearing on these arguments.
Why should the views of LNers, not directly connected to the JFK assassination, be considered “off-limits” but the views of CTers are?
Nobody said "off limits". He clearly suggested that you create a new thread to discuss your unrelated topic.
Just because this board is about the JFK assassination doesn't mean that every thread becomes a free for all. If you're discussing the acoustical evidence of the dictabelt recordings, and I respond by discussing the provenance of CE-399, you would be justified in asking me to take it elsewhere. This happens on this forum to CTs and LNs alike, all the time. Why should LNs be exempt from staying on topic? Particularly when you're going off topic to do an ad hominem poisoning of the well.
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I would. His arguments about the JFK assassination are either correct and supportable or they are not. The fact that he may have plagiarized some unrelated content has no bearing on these arguments.
Nobody said "off limits". He clearly suggested that you create a new thread to discuss your unrelated topic.
Just because this board is about the JFK assassination doesn't mean that every thread becomes a free for all. If you're discussing the acoustical evidence of the dictabelt recordings, and I respond by discussing the provenance of CE-399, you would be justified in asking me to take it elsewhere. This happens on this forum to CTs and LNs alike, all the time. Why should LNs be exempt from staying on topic? Particularly when you're going off topic to do an ad hominem poisoning of the well.
Please show me the forum rule that prevents members from going off topic. You wouldn't be making up these rules as you go along, would you John?
Last time I checked it was Duncan's job, as admin, to decide which posts were on or off topic. Has that changed, have you been 'promoted' to admin?
John, perhaps you would be better suited starting your very own forum, then you can police members posts and dictate the rules to your heart's content. A short while ago Duncan was asking if any member was interested in buying this forum, did you miss that?
Until that happens I think I'll carry on posting as I see fit (within forum rules) but thanks for the advice.
PS Please feel free to make a complaint to Duncan, concerning my posts going off topic, if you so wish.
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I didn't say it was a rule, nor am I policing. Just pointing out that it's a logical fallacy to respond to an argument about the TSBD being a false front with a counter argument about aliens. And the person who started the thread is well within his rights to ask you to stay on topic or start your own thread. And if you don't like that, then it's your problem.
But thanks for the advice.
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To my horror I find myself agreeing with John. The topic is the TSBD as a front and in my firm opinion there is something deeply suspicious going on there with multiple employees involved. What's going under the radar here is how profoundly weak Richard's argument is - that the power outage is somehow 'proof' that the TSBD is a front.
I would like to ask Richard what you think the purpose of the power outage is?
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I didn't say it was a rule, nor am I policing. Just pointing out that it's a logical fallacy to respond to an argument about the TSBD being a false front with a counter argument about aliens. And the person who started the thread is well within his rights to ask you to stay on topic or start your own thread. And if you don't like that, then it's your problem.
But thanks for the advice.
Problem? Me? I really don't have one...I'm just finding it hilarious watching you get all angry and frustrated over someone else's post. LOL
John, I don't need you to point out anything to me. Mind your business, keep your opinions about my post's to yourself and move on. You're dismissed. As the good book says; GO FOURTH AND MULTIPLY! :D :D :D
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My apologies for no direct responses; my internet server is out again, 2nd time in 2 weeks, and I only get 1/2 hour at the local library. But I thought I'd share a background story about the 2020 thesis.
I committed to putting a JFK book together in 2003 and the next year took a camping vacation at my alma mater UMaine, hoping to think like I did 30 years previously as a young idealistic philosophy major searching for eternal truths. They had a copy of the Warren Volumes and I read Jack Dougherty's testimony for the 1st time. Those 5 pages took over an hour, as I tried to read as though it were a stageplay, imagining everyone's faces and reactions. I had a EUREKA moment and realized that he'd taken down the strangers from the 6th floor. And my years of TSBD work since have been cobbling around that fundamental insight.
It's really since 2009 with my Elevator Escape essay that I've put together a formalized thesis about TSBD worker complicity. Imperfectly. But I've honed that thesis into court-presentable evidence now in 2020. That's how truth in criminology finally emerges- a flash of insight, a trickle of possibilities, then a burst of irrefutable conclusions.
And anyone who wants to counter my 2020 thesis has to examine it and provide arguments to the contrary. It's a cop-out to pretend this thesis is about something that's not presented in the thesis, like JFK & UFOs. Kind of like ridiculing me because I believe Brian Jones was murdered, or because I'm ignored by Deep Politics and C.A.P.A. and hated by the Education Forum and (References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited ).
One hope is that the reader of The Book Depository as a Potemkin Village looks at the TSBD Company having moved into Dealey Plaza for the express reason of killing President Kennedy. And I had a purpose for introducing the idea that the TSBD had served as a covert supplier for CIA activities, since that hypothesis had been introduced in the 90s.
Hopefully my internet will return soon but here in the hills of Southern New Hampshire there can be difficulties.
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Problem? Me? I really don't have one...I'm just finding it hilarious watching you get all angry and frustrated over someone else's post. LOL
John, I don't need you to point out anything to me. Mind your business, keep your opinions about my post's to yourself and move on. You're dismissed. As the good book says; GO FOURTH AND MULTIPLY! :D :D :D
As the good book says; GO FOURTH AND MULTIPLY!
And what if somebody wants to go third? Or second? :D
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As the good book says; GO FOURTH AND MULTIPLY!
And what if somebody wants to go third? Or second? :D
:D
The first three have to use contraceptives!
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My apologies for no direct responses; my internet server is out again, 2nd time in 2 weeks, and I only get 1/2 hour at the local library. But I thought I'd share a background story about the 2020 thesis.
I committed to putting a JFK book together in 2003 and the next year took a camping vacation at my alma mater UMaine, hoping to think like I did 30 years previously as a young idealistic philosophy major searching for eternal truths. They had a copy of the Warren Volumes and I read Jack Dougherty's testimony for the 1st time. Those 5 pages took over an hour, as I tried to read as though it were a stageplay, imagining everyone's faces and reactions. I had a EUREKA moment and realized that he'd taken down the strangers from the 6th floor. And my years of TSBD work since have been cobbling around that fundamental insight.
It's really since 2009 with my Elevator Escape essay that I've put together a formalized thesis about TSBD worker complicity. Imperfectly. But I've honed that thesis into court-presentable evidence now in 2020. That's how truth in criminology finally emerges- a flash of insight, a trickle of possibilities, then a burst of irrefutable conclusions.
And anyone who wants to counter my 2020 thesis has to examine it and provide arguments to the contrary. It's a cop-out to pretend this thesis is about something that's not presented in the thesis, like JFK & UFOs. Kind of like ridiculing me because I believe Brian Jones was murdered, or because I'm ignored by Deep Politics and C.A.P.A. and hated by the Education Forum and (References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited ).
One hope is that the reader of The Book Depository as a Potemkin Village looks at the TSBD Company having moved into Dealey Plaza for the express reason of killing President Kennedy. And I had a purpose for introducing the idea that the TSBD had served as a covert supplier for CIA activities, since that hypothesis had been introduced in the 90s.
Hopefully my internet will return soon but here in the hills of Southern New Hampshire there can be difficulties.
Richard - what purpose does the power outage serve? If it's to stop the elevators, what purpose does that serve?
What makes you think Dougherty is taking the assassin(s) down in the elevator?
Arnold Rowland describes seeing a man with a rifle on the 6th floor around 12:15. Is this man Dougherty?
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As the good book says; GO FOURTH AND MULTIPLY!
And what if somebody wants to go third? Or second? :D
That would be a gangbang. :D
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Richard - what purpose does the power outage serve? If it's to stop the elevators, what purpose does that serve?
What makes you think Dougherty is taking the assassin(s) down in the elevator?
Arnold Rowland describes seeing a man with a rifle on the 6th floor around 12:15. Is this man Dougherty?
I agree with you, Dan.... But there is evidence that "somebody" cut the power in the TSBD at about 12:35 / 12:40.....
I don't know if anybody ever investigated to find out who cut the power and why...... And I doubt that there were any assassins in the TSBD.
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If Mr. Pointing and Mr. Elliott have problems with my credibility because I wrote a 2009 book that culminated with a chapter about JFK & UFOs, fine, that's their problem. They should take their ridicule to another thread.
This thread, as John Iacolletti correctly states, is about the TSBD being a false front. I have a website with a dozen-plus essays about the TSBD- about 400 pages and 400 photographs- and plenty of credibility as regards the topic of this thread
The Pointing-Elliott tack into UFOland is an indication that they don't have a counter-argument to my 2020 thesis. Please examine the 2020 essay or leave the room. Thus far nothing you've brought to the table furthers the question, yea or nay, as to the TSBD as a Potemkin Village.
Dan O'meara asks what I think the purpose of the power outage was. I looked at this in greater detail in my 2015 essay INSIDE JOB in the section Frazier & The Elevator Power, which begins on p. 42. I concluded that the only benefit the conspirators would have gained would be to delay the police search. The conspirators would thereby gain time to "tidy up" the evidence so as to frame Oswald.
Cutting the power was not a spontaneous, superfluous act. It was an act that had been incorporated into the planning And it was accomplished by someone familiar with the building.
The power outage had been planned, and in all likelihood accomplished by someone who worked in the building. To quote my 2020 essay: "A telltale proof of conspiracy, hiding in plain sight."
And I have to agree with Walt Cakebread, that the assassins had left the TSBD well before the power outage. I think they escaped by 12:32.
I'll get to the question about Dougherty bringing down the assassins in my next post, hopefully in 10-12 hours.
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If Mr. Pointing and Mr. Elliott have problems with my credibility because I wrote a 2009 book that culminated with a chapter about JFK & UFOs, fine, that's their problem. They should take their ridicule to another thread.
This thread, as John Iacolletti correctly states, is about the TSBD being a false front. I have a website with a dozen-plus essays about the TSBD- about 400 pages and 400 photographs- and plenty of credibility as regards the topic of this thread
The Pointing-Elliott tack into UFOland is an indication that they don't have a counter-argument to my 2020 thesis. Please examine the 2020 essay or leave the room. Thus far nothing you've brought to the table furthers the question, yea or nay, as to the TSBD as a Potemkin Village.
Dan O'meara asks what I think the purpose of the power outage was. I looked at this in greater detail in my 2015 essay INSIDE JOB in the section Frazier & The Elevator Power, which begins on p. 42. I concluded that the only benefit the conspirators would have gained would be to delay the police search. The conspirators would thereby gain time to "tidy up" the evidence so as to frame Oswald.
Cutting the power was not a spontaneous, superfluous act. It was an act that had been incorporated into the planning And it was accomplished by someone familiar with the building.
The power outage had been planned, and in all likelihood accomplished by someone who worked in the building. To quote my 2020 essay: "A telltale proof of conspiracy, hiding in plain sight."
And I have to agree with Walt Cakebread, that the assassins had left the TSBD well before the power outage. I think they escaped by 12:32.
I'll get to the question about Dougherty bringing down the assassins in my next post, hopefully in 10-12 hours.
This thread, as John Iacolletti correctly states, is about the TSBD being a false front.
Yes, You're right Mr Gilbride, the TSBD was used to draw the investigators and the search for the shooters into a staged "crime scene" . There were no shots fired from the TSBD ..... And Captain Fritz was a prime conspirator. He has been quoted as insisting that the ignorant cops ( those who were not privy to the plot) keep searching the sixth floor, even after some of his subordinates wanted to expand the search to other areas of the building. Fritz is quoted as saying " Keep looking for that rifle. it has to be here somewhere" I ask: How would Fritz know that the Shooter ( There was no shooter in the TSBD) hadn't disassembled his weapon and left the TSBD with the dismantled weapon? ???
The TSBD is an excellent example of the proverbial Potemkin Village.
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Problem? Me? I really don't have one...I'm just finding it hilarious watching you get all angry and frustrated over someone else's post. LOL
John, I don't need you to point out anything to me. Mind your business, keep your opinions about my post's to yourself and move on. You're dismissed. As the good book says; GO FOURTH AND MULTIPLY! :D :D :D
I'm not angry or frustrated, but look who's policing posts now. :D
I'll comment on whatever I feel like. Have you been "promoted" to admin?
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I'm not angry or frustrated, but look who's policing posts now. :D
I'll comment on whatever I feel like. Have you been "promoted" to admin?
Yeah, yeah, whatever. You really should get a life. There's a lot more out there than just arguing on forums and u-tube channels. You really are one sad f***.
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Yeah, yeah, whatever. You really should get a life. There's a lot more out there than just arguing on forums and u-tube channels. You really are one sad f***.
Says the guy spending his time arguing on a forum.
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Says the guy spending his time arguing on a forum.
You won't be happy until you provoke a flame war as you have with Chapman, will you? I find your incessant arguing boring, childish and pathetic. I find you boring, childish and pathetic. You need to grow up, you're coming across as a six year old. Read your back post's, you'll cringe with embarrassment at your child like postings. Stop making a fool of yourself.
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Dan O'meara has asked me what makes me think Dougherty is taking the assassin(s) down in the elevator. It would be worth your while to read the 1st section, 4 pages, of my 2009 Elevator Escape Theory essay, "The Impossibility of Jack Dougherty's Assassination Aftermath Alibi." He recounted for the Dallas Police that after hearing a shot, he went down to the 1st floor and asked janitor Eddie Piper if he'd heard anything.
Not only was Eddie Piper never asked about this interaction, nor did Piper mention it in his Nov. 23 Sheriff's affidavit- once you check the speed of the freight elevators, you realize that Dougherty couldn't have started traveling downstairs until after Truly & Baker started traveling upstairs, that is until about 2 minutes after the shooting. So his alleged conversation with Piper wasn't a near-immediate reaction to the shots, as was portrayed in his alibi.
He continued to foster that impression, of a near-immediate reaction, in his Dec. 19th FBI statement. Only near the end of Dougherty's Warren Commission testimony does he reluctantly admit that he used the west elevator to go downstairs.
So, Dougherty cut short his lunch break, didn't join his co-workers to watch the motorcade, and obfuscated his movements after his lunch break. He had no good reason to be "getting stock" because he was part of the floor-laying crew. After lunch he went upstairs and then down to the 5th to get stock. The 7th floor was vacant. So he actually was on the 6th floor after his shortened lunch.
Melvin Eisenberg, a junior Warren Commission staff member, was suspicious enough of Dougherty to compose an eyes-only memo entitled "Identity of Assassin". Another junior staff member, Norman Redlich, followed that up with "The Mystery of the West Elevator". My 2015 Inside Job essay details some of their memos on pp. 12-18.
Photographic evidence of the strangers Dougherty took down from the 6th floor is on p. 22 of The Elevator Escape Theory.
Arnold Rowland's man in the 6th-floor west window had dark hair, and Dougherty's hair was blond. I believe Rowland's man was the same man captured in the 6th-floor west window in the Tom Dillard news photo.
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Dan O'meara has asked me what makes me think Dougherty is taking the assassin(s) down in the elevator. It would be worth your while to read the 1st section, 4 pages, of my 2009 Elevator Escape Theory essay, "The Impossibility of Jack Dougherty's Assassination Aftermath Alibi." He recounted for the Dallas Police that after hearing a shot, he went down to the 1st floor and asked janitor Eddie Piper if he'd heard anything.
Not only was Eddie Piper never asked about this interaction, nor did Piper mention it in his Nov. 23 Sheriff's affidavit- once you check the speed of the freight elevators, you realize that Dougherty couldn't have started traveling downstairs until after Truly & Baker started traveling upstairs, that is until about 2 minutes after the shooting. So his alleged conversation with Piper wasn't a near-immediate reaction to the shots, as was portrayed in his alibi.
He continued to foster that impression, of a near-immediate reaction, in his Dec. 19th FBI statement. Only near the end of Dougherty's Warren Commission testimony does he reluctantly admit that he used the west elevator to go downstairs.
So, Dougherty cut short his lunch break, didn't join his co-workers to watch the motorcade, and obfuscated his movements after his lunch break. He had no good reason to be "getting stock" because he was part of the floor-laying crew. After lunch he went upstairs and then down to the 5th to get stock. The 7th floor was vacant. So he actually was on the 6th floor after his shortened lunch.
Melvin Eisenberg, a junior Warren Commission staff member, was suspicious enough of Dougherty to compose an eyes-only memo entitled "Identity of Assassin". Another junior staff member, Norman Redlich, followed that up with "The Mystery of the West Elevator". My 2015 Inside Job essay details some of their memos on pp. 12-18.
Photographic evidence of the strangers Dougherty took down from the 6th floor is on p. 22 of The Elevator Escape Theory.
Arnold Rowland's man in the 6th-floor west window had dark hair, and Dougherty's hair was blond. I believe Rowland's man was the same man captured in the 6th-floor west window in the Tom Dillard news photo.
P
You're probably right,Mr Gilbride..... In suspecting that JD was involved in creating the " Protemkin Village"...but I seriously doubt that there were any "strangers" in the TSBD at 12:30 that day. I also believe that that the man that Arnold Rowland saw with a HUNTING RIFLE (not a mannlicher carcano) WITH A LARGE SCOPE is the same man that is seen in Tom Dillard's photo.
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Dan O'meara has asked me what makes me think Dougherty is taking the assassin(s) down in the elevator. It would be worth your while to read the 1st section, 4 pages, of my 2009 Elevator Escape Theory essay, "The Impossibility of Jack Dougherty's Assassination Aftermath Alibi." He recounted for the Dallas Police that after hearing a shot, he went down to the 1st floor and asked janitor Eddie Piper if he'd heard anything.
Not only was Eddie Piper never asked about this interaction, nor did Piper mention it in his Nov. 23 Sheriff's affidavit- once you check the speed of the freight elevators, you realize that Dougherty couldn't have started traveling downstairs until after Truly & Baker started traveling upstairs, that is until about 2 minutes after the shooting. So his alleged conversation with Piper wasn't a near-immediate reaction to the shots, as was portrayed in his alibi.
He continued to foster that impression, of a near-immediate reaction, in his Dec. 19th FBI statement. Only near the end of Dougherty's Warren Commission testimony does he reluctantly admit that he used the west elevator to go downstairs.
So, Dougherty cut short his lunch break, didn't join his co-workers to watch the motorcade, and obfuscated his movements after his lunch break. He had no good reason to be "getting stock" because he was part of the floor-laying crew. After lunch he went upstairs and then down to the 5th to get stock. The 7th floor was vacant. So he actually was on the 6th floor after his shortened lunch.
Melvin Eisenberg, a junior Warren Commission staff member, was suspicious enough of Dougherty to compose an eyes-only memo entitled "Identity of Assassin". Another junior staff member, Norman Redlich, followed that up with "The Mystery of the West Elevator". My 2015 Inside Job essay details some of their memos on pp. 12-18.
Photographic evidence of the strangers Dougherty took down from the 6th floor is on p. 22 of The Elevator Escape Theory.
Arnold Rowland's man in the 6th-floor west window had dark hair, and Dougherty's hair was blond. I believe Rowland's man was the same man captured in the 6th-floor west window in the Tom Dillard news photo.
I'm aware that Dougherty did not go down in the elevator immediately but that doesn't mean he was taking assassins down.
Dougherty wads not part of the floor-laying crew. You should know this.
How do you know Dougherty had blond hair?
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Richard - what purpose does the power outage serve? If it's to stop the elevators, what purpose does that serve?
What makes you think Dougherty is taking the assassin(s) down in the elevator?
Arnold Rowland describes seeing a man with a rifle on the 6th floor around 12:15. Is this man Dougherty?
Jack Daugherty could have been easily manipulated. Just reading his testimony could tell you that. Revisit ...
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1435.0.html
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How do you know Dougherty had blond hair?
....a photo of Jack Edwin Dougherty while attending Sunset High School in 1941. Jack is also possibly pictured in a photo with Mr. Decker in 1963 [slide the picture all the way to the right]--
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/omeka-net/30216/archive/files/9da0c7a7e36827bd25556bac5e99fad5.png?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAI3ATG3OSQLO5HGKA&Expires=1607558400&Signature=ZI99HnW4IwqMzUIqpPVnddUxFoI%3D)
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....a photo of Jack Edwin Dougherty while attending Sunset High School in 1941. Jack is also possibly pictured in a photo with Mr. Decker in 1963 [slide the picture all the way to the right]--
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/omeka-net/30216/archive/files/9da0c7a7e36827bd25556bac5e99fad5.png?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAI3ATG3OSQLO5HGKA&Expires=1607558400&Signature=ZI99HnW4IwqMzUIqpPVnddUxFoI%3D)
The photo of the "Farm Boy" has a deformed left ear......
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Says the guy spending his time arguing on a forum.
Iowa State dehorns the Long Horns......
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FWIW, I dived into the statements and testimony of Oswald's co-workers a few years back, and came to a quite different conclusion.
My discussion of this evidence is presented on patspeer.com in Chapter 4: Pinning the Tale on the Oswald.
In short, the villains here were not Oswald's co-workers, but Warren Commission Counsel Joseph Ball and David Belin, who were determined to make it look as though Oswald was the assassin, and ignore or smear anyone, e.g. Eddie Piper and Vickie Adams, who presented a problem.
As far as Dougherty, it became quite clear to me that Dougherty went upstairs AFTER the shooting, and that the one sound he heard from above was not a shot fired from far to his east on the floor above, but Truly and Baker coming down from the roof, most logically slamming the hatch door near the elevator shaft.
This, of course, was a huge problem for Ball and Belin. They needed Dougherty to be the one bringing the elevator down as Baker and Truly ran up, or else they'd have to admit there was someone who'd escaped undetected. So THEY made a point of not asking any of Dougherty's co-workers if they saw him after the shooting.
Their most egregious "oversight" was Piper. Dougherty said he talked to Piper after returning to the first floor. It would have been a simple matter, then, of asking Piper the time he spoke to Dougherty. But Ball didn't ask Piper about this on the record.
So why put the quotes on "oversight"? Because I don't believe for one second Ball "forgot" to ask Piper about Dougherty, You see, some years back I discovered within Howard Willens' memos a memo from Ball to Liebeler--who was supposed ton perform the second interview of Piper--in which Ball told Liebeler he needed to ask Piper about Dougherty. But no, instead, Ball interviewed Piper himself, and failed to, at least officially, ask Piper about Dougherty.
As Vickie Adams, among others, complained about Ball's partner Belin's habit of running through the questions off the record, and then going on the record, and asking the same questions, with the exception of those to which he'd received unsatisfactory answers, it's clear to me that Ball asked Piper about Dougherty, and received the answer he was hoping he wouldn't receive--that Piper talked to Dougherty 10 minutes or so after the shooting--and that Ball then kept this from the transcript when he went back through the questions "on the record".
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FWIW, I dived into the statements and testimony of Oswald's co-workers a few years back, and came to a quite different conclusion.
My discussion of this evidence is presented on patspeer.com in Chapter 4: Pinning the Tale on the Oswald.
In short, the villains here were not Oswald's co-workers, but Warren Commission Counsel Joseph Ball and David Belin, who were determined to make it look as though Oswald was the assassin, and ignore or smear anyone, e.g. Eddie Piper and Vickie Adams, who presented a problem.
As far as Dougherty, it became quite clear to me that Dougherty went upstairs AFTER the shooting, and that the one sound he heard from above was not a shot fired from far to his east on the floor above, but Truly and Baker coming down from the roof, most logically slamming the hatch door near the elevator shaft.
This, of course, was a huge problem for Ball and Belin. They needed Dougherty to be the one bringing the elevator down as Baker and Truly ran up, or else they'd have to admit there was someone who'd escaped undetected. So THEY made a point of not asking any of Dougherty's co-workers if they saw him after the shooting.
Their most egregious "oversight" was Piper. Dougherty said he talked to Piper after returning to the first floor. It would have been a simple matter, then, of asking Piper the time he spoke to Dougherty. But Ball didn't ask Piper about this on the record.
So why put the quotes on "oversight"? Because I don't believe for one second Ball "forgot" to ask Piper about Dougherty, You see, some years back I discovered within Howard Willens' memos a memo from Ball to Liebeler--who was supposed ton perform the second interview of Piper--in which Ball told Liebeler he needed to ask Piper about Dougherty. But no, instead, Ball interviewed Piper himself, and failed to, at least officially, ask Piper about Dougherty.
As Vickie Adams, among others, complained about Ball's partner Belin's habit of running through the questions off the record, and then going on the record, and asking the same questions, with the exception of those to which he'd received unsatisfactory answers, it's clear to me that Ball asked Piper about Dougherty, and received the answer he was hoping he wouldn't receive--that Piper talked to Dougherty 10 minutes or so after the shooting--and that Ball then kept this from the transcript when he went back through the questions "on the record".
Hi Pat,..... I believe that you are one of the best researchers on the forum. I don't always agree with you but I respect your opinion.
In this case I'm a bit surprised that you would give any credibility to Jack Dougherty. His testimony is such a confusing mess that I don't know how you can give solid credence to anything he said. Particularly with regard to his location at the time the shots were fired....and his operation of the elevator.
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For me, the most scandalous aspect of the WC testimonies is the questioning of Jack Dougherty. Charles Givens and Bonnie Ray Williams testify to being on the sixth floor before the shooting and both are grilled endlessly about what they saw and did whilst up there - question after question after question about even the most inane points until every detail has been squeezed out of them about their time on the sixth floor.
Dougherty testifies to being on the sixth floor just before and just after the shooting. Hear is the full extent of the questioning of this absolutely key witness:
"Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody on the sixth floor when you were there, before you went to the fifth floor?"
This single question is it. It's outrageous.
Dougherty goes into his Dumb and Dumber routine:
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes; I did.
Mr. BALL - Who?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, there was Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady---
Mr. BALL - That was in the morning, wasn't it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - That wasn't after lunch, was it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir.
Now that Ball has cleared this 'misunderstanding' up he should repeat his original question - Did you see anyone on the sixth floor when you were up there? But he doesn't:
Mr. BALL - After lunch, did you ever see them on the sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir; I didn't.
Instead of asking Dougherty if he saw anyone suspicious on the sixth floor when he was up there, Ball asks if he'd seen Shelley, Lovealdy and co. after lunch. There is no reason to ask this question, nobody at any time had suggested they were up there and Dougherty has an easy out.
It's utter BS:
But that's not the worst of it - Dougherty's alibi is also utter BS:.
He says he was on the fifth floor at the time of the shooting but this is blown out of the water by the testimonies of Jarman, Norman and Williams. Jarman and Norman were out front then decided to watch the motorcade from the fifth floor minutes before it arrived. They go up to the fifth in the north-west elevators and cross the fifth floor towards the south-east of the building. They do not see Dougherty.
Williams comes down from the sixth floor to the fifth, he also uses the north-west elevators, he too crosses the length of the building towards the south-east corner and he too does not see Dougherty.
After the shooting all three men cross from the east to the west side of the building and at no time do they see Dougherty.
Dougherty has no alibi but this is never considered in the WC questioning.
One should conclude that Dougherty was on the sixth before, during and after the shooting.
I would go as far as to suggest Dougherty is Arnold Rowland's "man with the rifle"
I would go as far to suggest that Dougherty is the shooter and that the WC covered it up.
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In short, the villains here were not Oswald's co-workers, but Warren Commission Counsel Joseph Ball and David Belin, who were determined to make it look as though Oswald was the assassin, and ignore or smear anyone, e.g. Eddie Piper and Vickie Adams, who presented a problem.
Charles Givens was produced in secret and his perjury laced testimony was introduced...saying he saw Oswald on the 6th floor right before the assassination. Still ignored by the Oswald did it crowd...it is proven here that this was all just a blatant lie-----
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1960.msg53015.html#msg53015
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Hi Pat,..... I believe that you are one of the best researchers on the forum. I don't always agree with you but I respect your opinion.
In this case I'm a bit surprised that you would give any credibility to Jack Dougherty. His testimony is such a confusing mess that I don't know how you can give solid credence to anything he said. Particularly with regard to his location at the time the shots were fired....and his operation of the elevator.
To be clear, I don't simply go along with Dougherty's testimony. He was undoubtedly confused. And Ball, undoubtedly, did his best to confuse him.
The keys to understanding Dougherty's actions after the shooting were, for the most part, there before he testified.
1. His early statements were consistent in that he went back to work 10 minutes or so AFTER 12:30, the time of the shooting.
2. Truly testified that he saw Dougherty on the fifth floor as he descended from the roof.
3. Dougherty said he was on the fifth floor BEFORE he heard the loud sound. And that he came down just afterwards.
4. He said the loud sound came from above him--the location of the elevator shaft and roof hatch--and not the east end of the building--the location of the sniper's nest window, which was just above an open window on the fifth floor.
5. Norman, Jarman and Wiliiams failed to see Dougherty on the fifth floor in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
6. Dougherty failed to see Norman, Jarman and Williams in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
7. Dougherty claimed he was standing by the west elevator when he heard the loud sound. IF the loud sound was Oswald firing the last of three shots, and Oswald raced downstairs just after, he would have to have passed within 20-30 feet of Dougherty across an open floor. And yet, Dougherty claimed he didn't see him.
8. The most logical solution then is that Dougherty went upstairs after the shooting via the west elevator, which someone other than Dougherty brought down from one of the top floors while Baker and Truly ran up.
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Charles Givens was produced in secret and his perjury laced testimony was introduced...saying he saw Oswald on the 6th floor right before the assassination. Still ignored by the Oswald did it crowd...it is proven here that this was all just a blatant lie-----
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1960.msg53015.html#msg53015
This is discussed in great detail in Chapter 4 at patspeer.com, Pinning the Tale on the Oswald. Beyond Givens' testimony, I demonstrate that Warren Commission Counsel continued to lie about Givens' testimony for the rest of his life--which leaves one with the impression Belin knew damn well that Givens lied, and that he, the Great David Belin, had suborned perjury.
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For me, the most scandalous aspect of the WC testimonies is the questioning of Jack Dougherty. Charles Givens and Bonnie Ray Williams testify to being on the sixth floor before the shooting and both are grilled endlessly about what they saw and did whilst up there - question after question after question about even the most inane points until every detail has been squeezed out of them about their time on the sixth floor.
Dougherty testifies to being on the sixth floor just before and just after the shooting. Hear is the full extent of the questioning of this absolutely key witness:
"Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody on the sixth floor when you were there, before you went to the fifth floor?"
This single question is it. It's outrageous.
Dougherty goes into his Dumb and Dumber routine:
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes; I did.
Mr. BALL - Who?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, there was Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady---
Mr. BALL - That was in the morning, wasn't it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - That wasn't after lunch, was it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir.
Now that Ball has cleared this 'misunderstanding' up he should repeat his original question - Did you see anyone on the sixth floor when you were up there? But he doesn't:
Mr. BALL - After lunch, did you ever see them on the sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir; I didn't.
Instead of asking Dougherty if he saw anyone suspicious on the sixth floor when he was up there, Ball asks if he'd seen Shelley, Lovealdy and co. after lunch. There is no reason to ask this question, nobody at any time had suggested they were up there and Dougherty has an easy out.
It's utter BS:
But that's not the worst of it - Dougherty's alibi is also utter BS:.
He says he was on the fifth floor at the time of the shooting but this is blown out of the water by the testimonies of Jarman, Norman and Williams. Jarman and Norman were out front then decided to watch the motorcade from the fifth floor minutes before it arrived. They go up to the fifth in the north-west elevators and cross the fifth floor towards the south-east of the building. They do not see Dougherty.
Williams comes down from the sixth floor to the fifth, he also uses the north-west elevators, he too crosses the length of the building towards the south-east corner and he too does not see Dougherty.
After the shooting all three men cross from the east to the west side of the building and at no time do they see Dougherty.
Dougherty has no alibi but this is never considered in the WC questioning.
One should conclude that Dougherty was on the sixth before, during and after the shooting.
I would go as far as to suggest Dougherty is Arnold Rowland's "man with the rifle"
I would go as far to suggest that Dougherty is the shooter and that the WC covered it up.
When I read statements from people suspecting Dougherty's involvement, I always shake my head, and assume they have never worked in a warehouse. I have. The backbone of a successful warehouse operation is almost always someone like Dougherty--a slightly-challenged person who would have trouble in most workplaces, but has found his niche at the warehouse, and is so grateful to have a job there he will show up early, work late, skip lunches etc.
Dougherty was the backbone of the TSBD. He was liked, but basically a loner. He ate lunch by himself, saw a ruckus in the building, was confused as to what was going on, and went back to work, only to hear a loud sound, come downstairs, and talk with Piper.
In one of his earliest statements, Bill Shelley said he talked to Dougherty after the shooting. Ball/Belin never asked him about this, at least not on the record.
In Dougherty's testimony, he said he talked to Piper after hearing the loud sound. And yet Ball/Belin never asked Piper about this on the record, even though they'd created a memo insisting that this question needed to be asked.
Well, there was a reason for this. Witnesses such as Dougherty, Piper, and Adams, were inconvenient witnesses to the "story" pushed by Ball and Belin, and were essentially silenced by them.
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To be clear, I don't simply go along with Dougherty's testimony. He was undoubtedly confused. And Ball, undoubtedly, did his best to confuse him.
The keys to understanding Dougherty's actions after the shooting were, for the most part, there before he testified.
1. His early statements were consistent in that he went back to work 10 minutes or so AFTER 12:30, the time of the shooting.
2. Truly testified that he saw Dougherty on the fifth floor as he descended from the roof.
3. Dougherty said he was on the fifth floor BEFORE he heard the loud sound. And that he came down just afterwards.
4. He said the loud sound came from above him--the location of the elevator shaft and roof hatch--and not the east end of the building--the location of the sniper's nest window, which was just above an open window on the fifth floor.
5. Norman, Jarman and Wiliiams failed to see Dougherty on the fifth floor in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
6. Dougherty failed to see Norman, Jarman and Williams in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
7. Dougherty claimed he was standing by the west elevator when he heard the loud sound. IF the loud sound was Oswald firing the last of three shots, and Oswald raced downstairs just after, he would have to have passed within 20-30 feet of Dougherty across an open floor. And yet, Dougherty claimed he didn't see him.
8. The most logical solution then is that Dougherty went upstairs after the shooting via the west elevator, which someone other than Dougherty brought down from one of the top floors while Baker and Truly ran up.
3. Dougherty said he was on the fifth floor BEFORE he heard the loud sound. And that he came down just afterwards.
4. He said the loud sound came from above him--the location of the elevator shaft and roof hatch--and not the east end of the building--the location of the sniper's nest window, which was just above an open window on the fifth floor.
Most witnesses said that the FIRST shot was the loudest..... ( If all shots were fired from the same site, all three shots sound have sounded alike, and the sounds of the shots should have been no different.)
IMO...There were NO shots fired from the TSBD..... At least there were no shots fired from the staged crime scene "sniper's nest".... (There may possibly have been a shot fired from the WEST end of the sixth floor which would be the shot that drew Howard Brennan's attention to the man with the 'high powered ", ie HUNTING rifle. )
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Walt, It was Arnold Rowland was it not?, witnessing a man in the SW 6th floor window of TSBD with a rifle that Rowland thought resembled a 30.06 hunting rifle with a a large scope
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I wonder what's the matter with Mssr. Gilbride? I hope he's gonna be ok, don't you? The 'UFO' is coming soon, and it is entirely made from us.
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Walt, It was Arnold Rowland was it not?, witnessing a man in the SW 6th floor window of TSBD with a rifle that Rowland thought resembled a 30.06 hunting rifle with a a large scope
Yes, Zeon, you're right in saying that Rowland saw a man with a high powered hunting rifle behind a window at the WEST end of the sixth floor. BUT.... If you read Howard Brennan's affidavit which he gave at about 1:30 that afternoon you should be able to discern that Brennan was describing the location where he saw the man "AIMING" a rifle out of a sixth floor window. Brennan said the man was STANDING and aiming a HIGH POWERED ( ie; a HUNTING rifle, not a military rifle) out of the window. There is no way in hell that a man could have stood behind the so called "Sniper's Nest" window and fired down onto Elm street, ( The lower sash of the window would have prevented that act) However a man could easily have STOOD behind the WEST end window and aimed a rifle down toward the triple underpass.
Brennan and Rowland saw the same man, at different times, at the WEST end of the sixth floor...... And BOTH B &R said the man had a HUNTING rifle.... ( Brennan called it a "high powered rifle".
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Walt, there
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Lol, phone keyboard snafu... continuing.. Walt, it’s difficult to reconcile that Rowland can see a scope on a rifle from 100 yes distant, yet Euins, Brennan, Bob Jackson and Malcolm Couch observing a rifle on the SE window do NOT see any scope on the rifle being stuck out the SE window far enough that it was so easily seen and the slowly withdrawn per these witnesses.
This is why imo, there may be 2 gunman on the 6th floor with different rifles
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My most recent essay is now posted in the ESSAYS section at my website jfkinsidejob.com and you can reach it via http://www.jfkinsidejob.com/book-depository-as-a-potemkin-village
A careful study should make it clear that Roy Truly, Jack Dougherty, Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, Wesley Frazier and Lee Harvey Oswald were complicit in the assassination. They aided and abetted the Depository hit team and subsequently framed Oswald for the murder.
Without a confession from Wesley Frazier, this recent work may well be the most succinct picture that emerges of what really went on inside that building on November 22nd.
I hope that you find time soon to enjoy this effort.
It's certainly quite an effort, Mr Gilbride. Why, even your photo id of Mr Dougherty is garbage! :D
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Lol, phone keyboard snafu... continuing.. Walt, it’s difficult to reconcile that Rowland can see a scope on a rifle from 100 yes distant, yet Euins, Brennan, Bob Jackson and Malcolm Couch observing a rifle on the SE window do NOT see any scope on the rifle being stuck out the SE window far enough that it was so easily seen and the slowly withdrawn per these witnesses.
This is why imo, there may be 2 gunman on the 6th floor with different rifles
"it’s difficult to reconcile that Rowland can see a scope on a rifle from 100 yes yards distant,"
(A) The distance was about 150 feet.....
(B) It's not at all difficult to see a scope on a rifle at 100 yards....
Euins, Brennan, Bob Jackson and Malcolm Couch observing a rifle on the SE window do NOT see any scope on the rifle being stuck out the SE window far enough that it was so easily seen and the slowly withdrawn per these witnesses.
The witnesses did not say that there was not a scope on the rifle .... They simply didn't remember seeing a scope.... And furthermore , If they were sure that the rifle did NOT have a scope ...Then the rifle they saw was NOT the Carcano Because the carcano definitely has a scope mounted on it.
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If Dougherty is one of 2 gunman on the 6th floor TSBD, then it is much easier to work out the escape of the other gunman and how his rifle is never found, and only the MC rifle found in the boxes.
A car parked near the west side of TSBD by the west side of the roofed part of loading dock (annex bldg) could be aligned very close underneath the NW side window of TSBD, (closest to the rear staircase) This would facilitate rapid removal of a rifle by simply dropping it out that west window by a SW window shooter running to that window in approx 10 sec after shooting his 1 and only shot at Z313.
Dougherty could be the other shooter, firing the MC rifle (from the SE window) to hit JFK and Connally with a single shot atZ223 then aprrox 4 sec later trying for the head shot , missing slightly high, and that round hits the curb near Tague by the Triple Underpass.
0.8 secs later, the Z313 shot is fired by the SW window gunman with the 30.06 hunting rifle with large scope that Arnold Rowland had observed briefly in the hands of the gunman approx at 12:15 pm.
The SW gunman can enter the west elevator by 15 sec post shots (after tossing his rifle out the west side window at 10 sec post shot).
Dougherty could have moved the West elevator from the 5th floor to 6th floor after Bonnie Ray Williams exited it approx 12:25pm in preparation for the SW gunmans escape.
SW gunman descends to 1st floor at 5sec/floor speed of elevator, and exits west elevator by 45 sec post shots
He is not of LOS of Baker/Truly as they are still in the front entrance lobby just about to open 2nd set of glass doors
There is some question if the west elevator descending would have been seen by Adams and Styles who are on the rear staircase at this time
Exiting at 45 sec from
West elevator on the 1st floor, the SW gunman would not be in LOS of Adams and Styles on the staircase, since they have not yet reached the floor landing.
Exiting from the rear door nearest west elevator, places the gunman inside the roofed part of the loading dock annex bldg, from whence he then has choice to go out the east facing nearest door or turn westward and travel approx 80 ft to a west side door exit ( near where the car was parked to pick up and drive away with, the rifle tossed from the 6th floor west side window at 10 sec post shots
It is questionable if the west elevator could be returned to the 5th floor by 70 sec post shots by Dougherty by remote control, such as would be necessary if Truly is observing it looking up the shaft at approx 75 sev post shots
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If Dougherty is one of 2 gunman on the 6th floor TSBD, then it is much easier to work out the escape of the other gunman and how his rifle is never found, and only the MC rifle found in the boxes.
A car parked near the west side of TSBD by the west side of the roofed part of loading dock (annex bldg) could be aligned very close underneath the NW side window of TSBD, (closest to the rear staircase) This would facilitate rapid removal of a rifle by simply dropping it out that west window by a SW window shooter running to that window in approx 10 sec after shooting his 1 and only shot at Z313.
Dougherty could be the other shooter, firing the MC rifle (from the SE window) to hit JFK and Connally with a single shot atZ223 then aprrox 4 sec later trying for the head shot , missing slightly high, and that round hits the curb near Tague by the Triple Underpass.
0.8 secs later, the Z313 shot is fired by the SW window gunman with the 30.06 hunting rifle with large scope that Arnold Rowland had observed briefly in the hands of the gunman approx at 12:15 pm.
The SW gunman can enter the west elevator by 15 sec post shots (after tossing his rifle out the west side window at 10 sec post shot).
Dougherty could have moved the West elevator from the 5th floor to 6th floor after Bonnie Ray Williams exited it approx 12:25pm in preparation for the SW gunmans escape.
SW gunman descends to 1st floor at 5sec/floor speed of elevator, and exits west elevator by 45 sec post shots
He is not of LOS of Baker/Truly as they are still in the front entrance lobby just about to open 2nd set of glass doors
There is some question if the west elevator descending would have been seen by Adams and Styles who are on the rear staircase at this time
Exiting at 45 sec from
West elevator on the 1st floor, the SW gunman would not be in LOS of Adams and Styles on the staircase, since they have not yet reached the floor landing.
Exiting from the rear door nearest west elevator, places the gunman inside the roofed part of the loading dock annex bldg, from whence he then has choice to go out the east facing nearest door or turn westward and travel approx 80 ft to a west side door exit ( near where the car was parked to pick up and drive away with, the rifle tossed from the 6th floor west side window at 10 sec post shots
It is questionable if the west elevator could be returned to the 5th floor by 70 sec post shots by Dougherty by remote control, such as would be necessary if Truly is observing it looking up the shaft at approx 75 sev post shots
Dougherty could be the other shooter, firing the MC rifle
The bore of the mannlicher carcano was dirty and corroded ( rusty) when the FBI received it in Washington DC, less than 20 hours after the murder of John Kennedy. If the MC had been fired on Friday the bore would not have had rust in it....
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Noted that MC rifle had corrosion inside barrel , Thus not likely fired although it’s possible it could have been displayed at the SE window.
However that idea is refuted by Amos Euins WC testimony
Amos Euins apparently saw one shot fired by a rifle held in the hands of a male human being at the SE window of TSBD
Also refuted by Harold Norman WC testimony as well as his video interviews
Harold Norman on the 5th floor directly below the SN 6th floor window heard 3 shots in a span of approx 4 secs judging from his several video replications. He suggests hearing the shells hitting the floor also ( WC statements)
Alternatives:
A. just one shooter with a semi auto rifle with large scope, whom was briefly seen at 12:15 at the SW window by Rowland, then this gunman switched to the SE window after Bonnie Ray Williams left the 6th floor approx by 12:24.
And for some reason the other witness except for Rowland were unable to see a scope on that same rifle as it was displayed at the SE window.
B. 2 shooters, no.1 at the SW window using a large scope 30.06 type hunting rifle and no.2 shooter using a rifle without a scope at the SE window
Since Euins claims seeing one shot fired from the SE window rifle, then the MC is a pre planted rifle not fired nor displayed. Purpose not exactly known, although speculation has been offered that It was a means to implicate Oswald, yet simultaneously give Oswald some reasonable chance of not being exonerated, thus enabling a CIA mission for Oswald to “defect” once again, this time to Cuba.
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Noted that MC rifle had corrosion inside barrel , Thus not likely fired although it’s possible it could have been displayed at the SE window.
However that idea is refuted by Amos Euins WC testimony
Amos Euins apparently saw one shot fired by a rifle held in the hands of a male human being at the SE window of TSBD
Also refuted by Harold Norman WC testimony as well as his video interviews
Harold Norman on the 5th floor directly below the SN 6th floor window heard 3 shots in a span of approx 4 secs judging from his several video replications. He suggests hearing the shells hitting the floor also ( WC statements)
Alternatives:
A. just one shooter with a semi auto rifle with large scope, whom was briefly seen at 12:15 at the SW window by Rowland, then this gunman switched to the SE window after Bonnie Ray Williams left the 6th floor approx by 12:24.
And for some reason the other witness except for Rowland were unable to see a scope on that same rifle as it was displayed at the SE window.
B. 2 shooters, no.1 at the SW window using a large scope 30.06 type hunting rifle and no.2 shooter using a rifle without a scope at the SE window
Since Euins claims seeing one shot fired from the SE window rifle, then the MC is a pre planted rifle not fired nor displayed. Purpose not exactly known, although speculation has been offered that It was a means to implicate Oswald, yet simultaneously give Oswald some reasonable chance of not being exonerated, thus enabling a CIA mission for Oswald to “defect” once again, this time to Cuba.
the MC is a pre planted rifle not fired nor displayed. Purpose not exactly known, although speculation has been offered that It was a means to implicate Oswald,
Speculation.... Lee Oswald thought he was playing the same role he had played at General Walker's house on the night of April 10, 1963. He had fired a bullet through Walker's window which was intended to make it appear that Lee had tried to kill Walker who was a bitter foe of Fidel Castro ..... Thus Lee thought that Castro would welcome Lee in Cuba because Lee was a fugitive who was wanted for attempted murder in the U.S. That scheme failed to blossom because Marina did not call the police when she found the alarming note that lee had left for her to find.....and the police ( who smelled a publicity stunt ) didn't use police dogs and find the carcano which Lee left hidden beneath a pile of brush near Walker's house.
Lee thought he was playing the same basic scheme when the carcano was hidden on the sixth floor ......
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If the conspirators went to all this trouble to partially frame Oswald, with intent that he would be arrested and possibly have a jury trial, be exonerated or found guilty, Oswald would escape from prison , flee to Cuba where Castro would be convinced Oswald is a true Communist ?
It’s doubtful imo, that Castro would that gullible to accept a fleeing murderer convicted of assassination of a US president
Therefore the other alternative of exoneration by jury after a lengthy public trial and an exhibition of a “mountain of evidence” , then Oswald announcing he is “defecting” to Cuba, Would be a more probable outcome of Castro accepting Oswald into Cuba as a legitimate defector and less suspicion of Oswald as a CIA spy
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the MC is a pre planted rifle not fired nor displayed. Purpose not exactly known, although speculation has been offered that It was a means to implicate Oswald,
Speculation.... Lee Oswald thought he was playing the same role he had played at General Walker's house on the night of April 10, 1963. He had fired a bullet through Walker's window which was intended to make it appear that Lee had tried to kill Walker who was a bitter foe of Fidel Castro ..... Thus Lee thought that Castro would welcome Lee in Cuba because Lee was a fugitive who was wanted for attempted murder in the U.S. That scheme failed to blossom because Marina did not call the police when she found the alarming note that lee had left for her to find.....and the police ( who smelled a publicity stunt ) didn't use police dogs and find the carcano which Lee left hidden beneath a pile of brush near Walker's house.
Lee thought he was playing the same basic scheme when the carcano was hidden on the sixth floor ......
Can't wait for your press conference and the ensuing laughter.
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If the conspirators went to all this trouble to partially frame Oswald, with intent that he would be arrested and possibly have a jury trial, be exonerated or found guilty, Oswald would escape from prison , flee to Cuba where Castro would be convinced Oswald is a true Communist ?
It’s doubtful imo, that Castro would that gullible to accept a fleeing murderer convicted of assassination of a US president
Therefore the other alternative of exoneration by jury after a lengthy public trial and an exhibition of a “mountain of evidence” , then Oswald announcing he is “defecting” to Cuba, Would be a more probable outcome of Castro accepting Oswald into Cuba as a legitimate defector and less suspicion of Oswald as a CIA spy
It’s doubtful imo, that Castro would that gullible to accept a fleeing murderer convicted of assassination of a US president
I believe that's sound reasoning.... But the scheme was originally created for the "attempt" to shoot General Walker.
There's a big difference between an attempt to shoot a person, and the act of murder. Lee Never intended to shoot Walker ....That should be obvious by the fact that he fired only one shot....when he would have ample opportunity to fire a few more shots to ensure that he had hit his victim. Walker himself said that he simply sat there for a while before he got up from his desk and went and looked out of the window.
Lee was totally unaware that he was being set up..... He thought it would appear as though he had taken a shot at JFK ( just as many suckers believe that he actually shot AT general Walker.
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If General Walker is in on the scheme, it’s doubtful imo that Walker would have given testimony that
The projectile remnant (supposedly fired at him from an MC rifle), in his opinion , did NOT resemble an MC bullet.
I suspect more a collaboration among the various CIA “assets” of which George DeM was one, and Ruth and Michele Paine possibly 2 more, all tasked with 1st mission of interception of the incoming returning “defector” Oswald and the newly wed mystery Russian aka “Soviet spy?” Marina.
This could be a very tangled web of spy vs spy considering Norman Mailers research indicating Marina may have been a KGB “asset” with mission to intercept all incoming so called American defectors of which Oswald was but 1 of approx 8 others.
This gives some credence to the theory Oswald was in fact part of a CIA defector scam to attempt to infiltrate USSR and that on his return to USA, Oswald was soon met by a millionaire George DeMohrenschildt , which surely more than just coincidence .
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If General Walker is in on the scheme, it’s doubtful imo that Walker would have given testimony that
The projectile remnant (supposedly fired at him from an MC rifle), in his opinion , did NOT resemble an MC bullet.
I suspect more a collaboration among the various CIA “assets” of which George DeM was one, and Ruth and Michele Paine possibly 2 more, all tasked with 1st mission of interception of the incoming returning “defector” Oswald and the newly wed mystery Russian aka “Soviet spy?” Marina.
This could be a very tangled web of spy vs spy considering Norman Mailers research indicating Marina may have been a KGB “asset” with mission to intercept all incoming so called American defectors of which Oswald was but 1 of approx 8 others.
This gives some credence to the theory Oswald was in fact part of a CIA defector scam to attempt to infiltrate USSR and that on his return to USA, Oswald was soon met by a millionaire George DeMohrenschildt , which surely more than just coincidence .
If General Walker is in on the scheme, it’s doubtful imo that Walker would have given testimony that
The projectile remnant (supposedly fired at him from an MC rifle), in his opinion , did NOT resemble an MC bullet.
I have no idea WHY Walker said the bullet that was displayed to him did not look like the bullet that he CLAIMED to have seen at his house on the night of April 10, 1963. Personally.... I doubt that Walker saw the bullet that the police found on that night....
Perhaps some folks believe Walker.... but anybody with any knowledge of liars should be able to discern that Walker's testimony is a mish mash of lies stacked on lies.
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I have to question if Castro would ever have allowed Oswald to defect to Cuba , given the probability that the KGB suspected Oswald as just one more of several so called defectors from USA, hence a suspected CIA spy.
Surely the Kremlin would have kept their puppet Communist Castro informed of potential CIA spy and or potential assassin ?
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I have to question if Castro would ever have allowed Oswald to defect to Cuba , given the probability that the KGB suspected Oswald as just one more of several so called defectors from USA, hence a suspected CIA spy.
Surely the Kremlin would have kept their puppet Communist Castro informed of potential CIA spy and or potential assassin ?
If you read the KGB documents that Yeltsin gave to Clinton, the Nosenko testimony, and Norman Mailer's book on Oswald ("Oswald's Tale") you can see that the KGB did suspect Oswald was some sort of intelligence operative when he first arrived. But they said (to Mailer) they suspected every American of being a threat since that's what they were trained to believe. And that's why, in part, they sent Oswald to an isolated area (Minsk in Belarussia) to monitor 24/7. They were also afraid that some sort of international incident might happen particularly since Oswald tried to kill himself (apparently) before. The very day Oswald defected Khrushchev was in Washington meeting with Ike in an attempt to normalize relations between the two rivals.
Mailer (and his associates) interviewed over two dozen Belarus KGB agents ordered to monitor Oswald. After watching him closely they dismissed him as a nobody, as not having the aptitude or makeup to be an agent. In fact several were glad to let him return to the US. For more details read Nosenko's testimony or the documents that Yeltsin gave to Clinton. Read KGB agent Oleg Nechiporenko's book "Passport to Assassination." He interviewed Oswald when Oswald went to Mexico City and visited the Soviet Embassy. After the assassination Nechiporenko said he studied the KGB file on Oswald very closely and talked to other agents to determine who Oswald really was. He said their conclusion - and his -was that Oswald was a nobody and no threat to the USSR. So they let him go, he was too much of a nuisance.
If they thought he was a CIA spy they certainly wouldn't have let I doubt that they would have let him return to the US with whatever intelligence/information he had acquired. This was the post-Stalin era and Khrushchev was trying to open things up somewhat; but it was still a closed brutal state run by murderers (Khrushchev did Stalin's "dirty work" for him in the Ukraine).
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I have to question if Castro would ever have allowed Oswald to defect to Cuba , given the probability that the KGB suspected Oswald as just one more of several so called defectors from USA, hence a suspected CIA spy.
Surely the Kremlin would have kept their puppet Communist Castro informed of potential CIA spy and or potential assassin ?
I have to question if Castro would ever have allowed Oswald to defect to Cuba
That's irrelevant ....Lee Thought that he could convince the Cubans that he was a true supporter of the revolution, just as he had convinced the Russians that he was a disgruntled and disaffected American.
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FWIW, I dived into the statements and testimony of Oswald's co-workers a few years back, and came to a quite different conclusion.
My discussion of this evidence is presented on patspeer.com in Chapter 4: Pinning the Tale on the Oswald.
In short, the villains here were not Oswald's co-workers, but Warren Commission Counsel Joseph Ball and David Belin, who were determined to make it look as though Oswald was the assassin, and ignore or smear anyone, e.g. Eddie Piper and Vickie Adams, who presented a problem.
As far as Dougherty, it became quite clear to me that Dougherty went upstairs AFTER the shooting, and that the one sound he heard from above was not a shot fired from far to his east on the floor above, but Truly and Baker coming down from the roof, most logically slamming the hatch door near the elevator shaft.
This, of course, was a huge problem for Ball and Belin. They needed Dougherty to be the one bringing the elevator down as Baker and Truly ran up, or else they'd have to admit there was someone who'd escaped undetected. So THEY made a point of not asking any of Dougherty's co-workers if they saw him after the shooting.
Their most egregious "oversight" was Piper. Dougherty said he talked to Piper after returning to the first floor. It would have been a simple matter, then, of asking Piper the time he spoke to Dougherty. But Ball didn't ask Piper about this on the record.
So why put the quotes on "oversight"? Because I don't believe for one second Ball "forgot" to ask Piper about Dougherty, You see, some years back I discovered within Howard Willens' memos a memo from Ball to Liebeler--who was supposed ton perform the second interview of Piper--in which Ball told Liebeler he needed to ask Piper about Dougherty. But no, instead, Ball interviewed Piper himself, and failed to, at least officially, ask Piper about Dougherty.
As Vickie Adams, among others, complained about Ball's partner Belin's habit of running through the questions off the record, and then going on the record, and asking the same questions, with the exception of those to which he'd received unsatisfactory answers, it's clear to me that Ball asked Piper about Dougherty, and received the answer he was hoping he wouldn't receive--that Piper talked to Dougherty 10 minutes or so after the shooting--and that Ball then kept this from the transcript when he went back through the questions "on the record".
There are serious problems with a scenario that has Dougherty going back to work after the shooting. In the scenario you are proposing Dougherty is on the fifth floor when he hears Baker and Truly coming down from the roof. This seems to be supported by Truly's recollection of seeing Dougherty collecting stock on the fifth floor as he and Baker descend to the first floor. The problem is that by the time Truly and Baker reach the first floor the situation seems quite chaotic:
Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse
In your scenario, Dougherty then comes down into this 'madhouse', searches out Eddie Piper who tells him about the assassination after which Dougherty calmly returns to the elevators, presumably elbowing police officers, reporters and stunned TSBD employees aside, and returns to work on the sixth floor.
This seems highly unlikely.
He also mentions that when he finishes his lunch he wanted to see the President but there were too many people on the steps:
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched him but the steps were so crowded---there was no way in the world I could get out there.
This is surely a description of the steps before employees started flooding back into the building in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
"They needed Dougherty to be the one bringing the elevator down as Baker and Truly ran up"
There is nothing to suggest the elevator came down from the fifth floor as Truly and Baker ran up and plenty to suggest it didn't. It seems more likely the missing elevator was on the sixth floor when Truly and Baker reached the fifth.
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Oleg Nechiporenko was one of the three KGB agents/Soviet Embassy officers who talked with Oswald when he, Oswald, went to the Embassy in Mexico City in search of a visa. Nechiporenko (and the others) said Oswald was hysterical, emotional and erratic. He described the meeting in his book "Passport to Assassination"
This is part of it (pgs. 77=78): "[During the discussion] Oswald suddenly became hysterical, began to sob, and through his tears cried, "I am afraid...they'll kill me!" Repeating over and over that he was being persecuted and that he was being followed even here in Mexico, he stuck his right hand into the left pocket of his jacket and pulled out a revolver, saying, "See? This is what I need to defend myself!"
"I was dumbfounded and looked at Pavel [Yatsov, his fellow KGB agent], who had turned slightly pale but then quickly said to me, "Here, give me that piece." I took the revolver from the table and handed it to Pavel. Oswald, sobbing wiped away his tears. He did not respond to my movements. Pavel, who had grabbed the revolver, opened the chamber and emptied the bullets..."
After the assassination, Nechiporenko discussed Oswald with his fellow agents. He read the files on Oswald compiled by the KGB. The KGB had concluded that Oswald's traits included:
1. Strongly individualistic, conflicts with society
2. Psychological [problems], nervous instability
3.Inertia when he has no interest in the matter
4.Lack of organizing skills
5. Lack of any professional skills
The Cubans who met Oswald at the Cuban consulate in Mexico City said he was hysterical and aggressive and had to be physically escorted out the building. Oswald was told that "the Revolution doesn't need people like you" and was told to leave.
To me, this is not the right behavior of someone that the Cubans or Soviets are going to allow into their country. Why risk letting this disturbed person into your country? If Oswald was a CIA officer/asset, I don't think he would be instructed to act this way. Not if they wanted him to get into Cuba and certainly not if they wanted to get him close enough to Castro to kill him.
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Oleg Nechiporenko was one of the three KGB agents/Soviet Embassy officers who talked with Oswald when he, Oswald, went to the Embassy in Mexico City in search of a visa. Nechiporenko (and the others) said Oswald was hysterical, emotional and erratic. He described the meeting in his book "Passport to Assassination"
This is part of it (pgs. 77=78): "[During the discussion] Oswald suddenly became hysterical, began to sob, and through his tears cried, "I am afraid...they'll kill me!" Repeating over and over that he was being persecuted and that he was being followed even here in Mexico, he stuck his right hand into the left pocket of his jacket and pulled out a revolver, saying, "See? This is what I need to defend myself!"
"I was dumbfounded and looked at Pavel [Yatsov, his fellow KGB agent], who had turned slightly pale but then quickly said to me, "Here, give me that piece." I took the revolver from the table and handed it to Pavel. Oswald, sobbing wiped away his tears. He did not respond to my movements. Pavel, who had grabbed the revolver, opened the chamber and emptied the bullets..."
After the assassination, Nechiporenko discussed Oswald with his fellow agents. He read the files on Oswald compiled by the KGB. The KGB had concluded that Oswald's traits included:
1. Strongly individualistic, conflicts with society
2. Psychological [problems], nervous instability
3.Inertia when he has no interest in the matter
4.Lack of organizing skills
5. Lack of any professional skills
The Cubans who met Oswald at the Cuban consulate in Mexico City said he was hysterical and aggressive and had to be physically escorted out the building. Oswald was told that "the Revolution doesn't need people like you" and was told to leave.
To me, this is not the right behavior of someone that the Cubans or Soviets are going to allow into their country. Why risk letting this disturbed person into your country? If Oswald was a CIA officer/asset, I don't think he would be instructed to act this way. Not if they wanted him to get into Cuba and certainly not if they wanted to get him close enough to Castro to kill him.
Pavel, who had grabbed the revolver, opened the chamber and emptied the bullets..."
OPENED THE CHAMBER ( Cylinder ) AND EMPTIED THE BULLETS..... THAT is the way both the spent shells, and live cartridges are removed from a S&W revolver. The shells are NOT removed ONE AT A TIME..... However... Virtually ALL of the witnesses at the scene of Tippit's murder reported that the killer removed the spent shells ONE AT A TIME.... They were describing the action of a man who was NOT holding a S&W revolver.... And the man was NOT Lee Oswald.
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If it’s true that the KGB did not consider Oswald a CIA spy, then its possible that Castro would NOT have been warned and therefore Walts theory Is not completely shot down just yet :)
However, how much should we trust former USSR KGB concerning Oswald?
Maybe they feigned having concern and let Oswald exit the USSR without any further torture than the electric shock “therapy” that caused his hair to change color, in order to infiltrate Marina as a KGB spy into the USA
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If it’s true that the KGB did not consider Oswald a CIA spy, then its possible that Castro would NOT have been warned and therefore Walts theory Is not completely shot down just yet :)
However, how much should we trust former USSR KGB concerning Oswald?
Maybe they feigned having concern and let Oswald exit the USSR without any further torture than the electric shock “therapy” that caused his hair to change color, in order to infiltrate Marina as a KGB spy into the USA
If it’s true that the KGB did not consider Oswald a CIA spy,
No intelligence organization trusts it operatives completely.... All intel organizations keep their spies under watchful eye....
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.... how much should we trust former USSR KGB concerning Oswald?
Concerning Oswald?----Concerning anything...about as far as you can throw the Kremlin.
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Getting back to the thread...
The limited research I've done on this subject has convinced me that various employees were involved in the assassination.
This involvement seems 'supported' by the investigating authorities and, to some extent, the Warren Commission itself.
This begs the question - to what extent was the TSBD a 'front'?
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Getting back to the thread...
The limited research I've done on this subject has convinced me that various employees were involved in the assassination.
This involvement seems 'supported' by the investigating authorities and, to some extent, the Warren Commission itself.
This begs the question - to what extent was the TSBD a 'front'?
Hi Dan, IMO the TSBD was a vital part of the plot. The Plotters realized that Dealey Plaza was an ideal site for the assassination. ( It probably had been recognized as such by the Secret Service Long before JFK visited Texas) And After they suckered Lee Oswald into taking the potshot at general Walker they knew they had a patsy... and they needed to get him a job inside the TSBD after they had talked JFK into making the "fence mending" trip to Dallas.
So IMO the TSBD was a crucial part of the Plot.
After they suckered Lee Oswald into taking the potshot at general Walker they knew they had a patsy... and they needed to get him a job inside the TSBD
Detective Jack Revill said that Hosty told him that " We (the FBI) knew that he (LHO) was capable of assassinating the President, but we didn't dream that he would do it."
Question:... HOW did the FBI know that Lee could easily be made a scapegoat? Lee had NOTHING in his background on which the FBI could have formed such an idea. IMO, The FBI knew that Lee had been suckered into firing a bullet through general Walker's window.
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There are serious problems with a scenario that has Dougherty going back to work after the shooting. In the scenario you are proposing Dougherty is on the fifth floor when he hears Baker and Truly coming down from the roof. This seems to be supported by Truly's recollection of seeing Dougherty collecting stock on the fifth floor as he and Baker descend to the first floor. The problem is that by the time Truly and Baker reach the first floor the situation seems quite chaotic:
Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse
In your scenario, Dougherty then comes down into this 'madhouse', searches out Eddie Piper who tells him about the assassination after which Dougherty calmly returns to the elevators, presumably elbowing police officers, reporters and stunned TSBD employees aside, and returns to work on the sixth floor.
This seems highly unlikely.
He also mentions that when he finishes his lunch he wanted to see the President but there were too many people on the steps:
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched him but the steps were so crowded---there was no way in the world I could get out there.
This is surely a description of the steps before employees started flooding back into the building in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
"They needed Dougherty to be the one bringing the elevator down as Baker and Truly ran up"
There is nothing to suggest the elevator came down from the fifth floor as Truly and Baker ran up and plenty to suggest it didn't. It seems more likely the missing elevator was on the sixth floor when Truly and Baker reached the fifth.
It's been awhile since I wrote that chapter, but I'm pretty sure this makes sense.
12:32 Baker and Truly look up and see the west elevator on sixth and the east on fifth. They run upstairs, seeing Oswald on the second, and then take the east elevator up to the seventh, and the ladder to the roof.
12:34 Dougherty, who was in the bath room when the shots were fired, is confused by the hubbub in the building, and goes back to work, taking the west elevator back up to the sixth. He gets some stock and goes back down to the fifth. While there he hears Baker and Truly slam the hatch to the roof as they come back down the ladder.
12:37 As Baker and Truly descend in the east elevator, Truly spots Dougherty on the fifth floor.
12:38 Dougherty follows them back down. Upon his arrival on the first floor, he goes over to Eddie Piper, who has been told to watch the back door, and asks him what has happened.
The advantages of this theory.
1. It explains why Dougherty heard but one loud sound and thought it came from above him.
2. It explains why Dougherty failed to see or hear Williams, Jarman and Norman on the fifth floor.
3. It explains why Williams, Jarman and Norman failed to see or hear Dougherty on the fifth floor.
4. It explains how Dougherty, who in the official story was standing by the west elevator for a few minutes after the shooting, failed to see or hear Oswald run down the stairs and cross the floor directly in front of him.
5. It explains why Ball never asked Dougherty if he had to call the west elevator, or if it was there on the first floor.
5. It explains why Ball failed to ask Piper when and where he saw Dougherty, and why Ball turned around and trashed Piper's credibility in the Warren Report.
6. It fits in with J.C. Price's claim he heard a loud noise minutes after the shooting.
I'm sure there's more.
The problem with this theory (for LNs):
1. It means someone descended in the west elevator just as or just after Baker and Truly ran up to the fifth floor.
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It's been awhile since I wrote that chapter, but I'm pretty sure this makes sense.
12:32 Baker and Truly look up and see the west elevator on sixth and the east on fifth. They run upstairs, seeing Oswald on the second, and then take the east elevator up to the seventh, and the ladder to the roof.
12:34 Dougherty, who was in the bath room when the shots were fired, is confused by the hubbub in the building, and goes back to work, taking the west elevator back up to the sixth. He gets some stock and goes back down to the fifth. While there he hears Baker and Truly slam the hatch to the roof as they come back down the ladder.
12:37 As Baker and Truly descend in the east elevator, Truly spots Dougherty on the fifth floor.
12:38 Dougherty follows them back down. Upon his arrival on the first floor, he goes over to Eddie Piper, who has been told to watch the back door, and asks him what has happened.
The advantages of this theory.
1. It explains why Dougherty heard but one loud sound and thought it came from above him.
2. It explains why Dougherty failed to see or hear Williams, Jarman and Norman on the fifth floor.
3. It explains why Williams, Jarman and Norman failed to see or hear Dougherty on the fifth floor.
4. It explains how Dougherty, who in the official story was standing by the west elevator for a few minutes after the shooting, failed to see or hear Oswald run down the stairs and cross the floor directly in front of him.
5. It explains why Ball never asked Dougherty if he had to call the west elevator, or if it was there on the first floor.
5. It explains why Ball failed to ask Piper when and where he saw Dougherty, and why Ball turned around and trashed Piper's credibility in the Warren Report.
6. It fits in with J.C. Price's claim he heard a loud noise minutes after the shooting.
I'm sure there's more.
The problem with this theory (for LNs):
1. It means someone descended in the west elevator just as or just after Baker and Truly ran up to the fifth floor.
12:32 Baker and Truly look up and see the west elevator on sixth and the east on fifth. They run upstairs, seeing Oswald on the second, and then take the east elevator up to the seventh, and the ladder to the roof.
The problem with this theory (for LNs):
1. It means someone descended in the west elevator just as or just after Baker and Truly ran up to the fifth floor.
Baker would certainly have noticed the elevator descending ( the elevators were very noisy)and ordered the person aboard, to stop descending .
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It's been awhile since I wrote that chapter, but I'm pretty sure this makes sense.
12:32 Baker and Truly look up and see the west elevator on sixth and the east on fifth. They run upstairs, seeing Oswald on the second, and then take the east elevator up to the seventh, and the ladder to the roof.
12:34 Dougherty, who was in the bath room when the shots were fired, is confused by the hubbub in the building, and goes back to work, taking the west elevator back up to the sixth. He gets some stock and goes back down to the fifth. While there he hears Baker and Truly slam the hatch to the roof as they come back down the ladder.
12:37 As Baker and Truly descend in the east elevator, Truly spots Dougherty on the fifth floor.
12:38 Dougherty follows them back down. Upon his arrival on the first floor, he goes over to Eddie Piper, who has been told to watch the back door, and asks him what has happened.
The advantages of this theory.
1. It explains why Dougherty heard but one loud sound and thought it came from above him.
2. It explains why Dougherty failed to see or hear Williams, Jarman and Norman on the fifth floor.
3. It explains why Williams, Jarman and Norman failed to see or hear Dougherty on the fifth floor.
4. It explains how Dougherty, who in the official story was standing by the west elevator for a few minutes after the shooting, failed to see or hear Oswald run down the stairs and cross the floor directly in front of him.
5. It explains why Ball never asked Dougherty if he had to call the west elevator, or if it was there on the first floor.
5. It explains why Ball failed to ask Piper when and where he saw Dougherty, and why Ball turned around and trashed Piper's credibility in the Warren Report.
6. It fits in with J.C. Price's claim he heard a loud noise minutes after the shooting.
I'm sure there's more.
The problem with this theory (for LNs):
1. It means someone descended in the west elevator just as or just after Baker and Truly ran up to the fifth floor.
Other problems:
Both Truly and Baker report seeing thr elevators on the same floor when they look up
Dougherty fails to mention any kind of 'hubbub' on the first floor, although he does state that the front steps were crowded, presumably with employees waiting to see the motorcade
Dougherty makes no mention of the 'madhouse' of police, reporters and stunned employees when he returns to the first floor
But the main problem is the notion Dougherty calmly goes back up to the sixth floor to resume his work after talking to Piper, ignoring the chaos ensuing on the first floor.
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Other problems:
Both Truly and Baker report seeing thr elevators on the same floor when they look up
Dougherty fails to mention any kind of 'hubbub' on the first floor, although he does state that the front steps were crowded, presumably with employees waiting to see the motorcade
Dougherty makes no mention of the 'madhouse' of police, reporters and stunned employees when he returns to the first floor
But the main problem is the notion Dougherty calmly goes back up to the sixth floor to resume his work after talking to Piper, ignoring the chaos ensuing on the first floor.
Other problem:
(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)
Thumb1:
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Other problem:
(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)
Thumb1:
These notes are NOT the notes that Hosty scribbled DURING the first interrogation of Lee Oswald. And Hosty was present only during the initial interrogation of Lee. So Hosty got his information about the coke from another source, Which was probably Bardwell Odum, Furthermore, the coke issue never surfaced until AFTER Fritz talked to officer Baker ( after 5:00pm ) And according to Hosty's notes Lee went downstairs and ate his lunch AFTER buying the coke and BEFORE going outside (to watch the P. parade)
There was no parade to watch five minutes AFTER Baker saw Lee in the lunchroom with the coke in his hand.
(https://i.imgur.com/u9j1YK5.jpg)
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Other problems:
Both Truly and Baker report seeing thr elevators on the same floor when they look up
Dougherty fails to mention any kind of 'hubbub' on the first floor, although he does state that the front steps were crowded, presumably with employees waiting to see the motorcade
Dougherty makes no mention of the 'madhouse' of police, reporters and stunned employees when he returns to the first floor
But the main problem is the notion Dougherty calmly goes back up to the sixth floor to resume his work after talking to Piper, ignoring the chaos ensuing on the first floor.
Jack Dougherty was deeply involved..... I believe that he was an accomplice ( a lookout) for the 165 pound, dark haired man who was wearing a khaki colored jacket. This 165 pound man was the man that Howard Brennan, and Arnold Rowland saw behind the sixth floor window.
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Jack Dougherty was deeply involved..... I believe that he was an accomplice ( a lookout) for the 165 pound, dark haired man who was wearing a khaki colored jacket. This 165 pound man was the man that Howard Brennan, and Arnold Rowland saw behind the sixth floor window.
Why not have Dougherty as the 'man with the rifle' Rowland saw?
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Other problems:
Both Truly and Baker report seeing thr elevators on the same floor when they look up
Dougherty fails to mention any kind of 'hubbub' on the first floor, although he does state that the front steps were crowded, presumably with employees waiting to see the motorcade
Dougherty makes no mention of the 'madhouse' of police, reporters and stunned employees when he returns to the first floor
But the main problem is the notion Dougherty calmly goes back up to the sixth floor to resume his work after talking to Piper, ignoring the chaos ensuing on the first floor.
No, the main problem with Dougherty was that he was retarded. You can look it up.
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No, the main problem with Dougherty was that he was retarded. You can look it up.
How retarded do you have to be before you can't use a rifle?
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Why not have Dougherty as the 'man with the rifle' Rowland saw?
That's possible.....But even if Dougherty was the man with the "high powered hunting rifle " ( "a thirty odd six" with a large scope as Rowland described it) I doubt that he fired it. I doubt that there were any shots fired from the TSBD..
Whoever the puppeteer was, who was pulling the strings.... He may have set the simple minded Dougherty up as an accomplice or a back up patsy, in the event that Lee Oswald foiled their plan to frame him.
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I doubt that there were any shots fired from the TSBD..
...erm... okay
You do think there were shots fired though?
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...erm... okay
You do think there were shots fired though?
I believe that the shots came from the front ,...Just as the first reports said...
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I believe that the shots came from the front ,...Just as the first reports said...
Over 160 witnesses heard three shots ring out.
If, as you believe, these shots came from the front, how was anyone supposed to believe they came from the TSBD.
What kind of "set-up" is that?
Surely the set-up would have to make people believe the shots came from the TSBD. How could they frame Oswald otherwise?
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How retarded do you have to be before you can't use a rifle?
More a case of being able to follow orders with precision.
Tell us what would motivate someone to use the autistic Jack Dougherty as an assassin in the first place. Or even a deranged loser like Oswald. Or yet another deranged loser in the person of one Jack Ruby.
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Over 160 witnesses heard three shots ring out.
If, as you believe, these shots came from the front, how was anyone supposed to believe they came from the TSBD.
What kind of "set-up" is that?
Surely the set-up would have to make people believe the shots came from the TSBD. How could they frame Oswald otherwise?
A majority of the witnesses said that the first explosion sounded different then the next two explosions.....Many of the witnesses thought that the first explosion sounded like a motor vehicle backfire or a large firecracker. I believe the sound they heard was in fact a "firecracker" which was the signal to the snipers that LBJ had signaled the team leader "open fire".
Surely the set-up would have to make people believe the shots came from the TSBD. How could they frame Oswald otherwise?
For at least five minutes after the shooting, 99% of the witnesses thought the shots had come from the GK. Virtually nobody thought the shots had came from the TSBD. This is a good example of people caving in to authority.... The police started reporting that they had found a "Sniper's Nest" ( an inflammatory description) shots had been fired from a "Snipers Nest" on the sixth floor of the TSBD...And thus the people who had heard the shots simply caved in and thought that they were mistaken, and went along with the police. ( read Orville Nix's account for a classic example of a witness who trusted the police more than he trusted his own good sense.)
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A majority of the witnesses said that the first explosion sounded different then the next two explosions.....Many of the witnesses thought that the first explosion sounded like a motor vehicle backfire or a large firecracker. I believe the sound they heard was in fact a "firecracker" which was the signal to the snipers that LBJ had signaled the team leader "open fire".
???
Did LBJ throw the firecracker himself or did he signal someone else to throw the firecracker?
Do we know what the signal was?
Maybe LBJ's signal was a firecracker that signalled the firecracker to be thrown to signal is was time to get to shootin'.
Surely the set-up would have to make people believe the shots came from the TSBD. How could they frame Oswald otherwise?
For at least five minutes after the shooting, 99% of the witnesses thought the shots had come from the GK. Virtually nobody thought the shots had came from the TSBD. This is a good example of people caving in to authority.... The police started reporting that they had found a "Sniper's Nest" ( an inflammatory description) shots had been fired from a "Snipers Nest" on the sixth floor of the TSBD...And thus the people who had heard the shots simply caved in and thought that they were mistaken, and went along with the police. ( read Orville Nix's account for a classic example of a witness who trusted the police more than he trusted his own good sense.)
Almost everyone in the building at the time of the shooting thought the shots came from inside the building but maybe these witnesses were futuristic cyborg manchurian candidates programmed to regurgitate the official line.
It's my opinion that if you wanted to set up someone firing from the TSBD you would have someone firing from the TSBD but I'm old-fashioned.
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???
Did LBJ throw the firecracker himself or did he signal someone else to throw the firecracker?
Do we know what the signal was?
Maybe LBJ's signal was a firecracker that signalled the firecracker to be thrown to signal is was time to get to shootin'.
Almost everyone in the building at the time of the shooting thought the shots came from inside the building but maybe these witnesses were futuristic cyborg manchurian candidates programmed to regurgitate the official line.
It's my opinion that if you wanted to set up someone firing from the TSBD you would have someone firing from the TSBD but I'm old-fashioned.
Do you think the hit team would have proceeded if they weren't 100% sure that LBJ had their back?
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Do you think the hit team would have proceeded if they weren't 100% sure that LBJ had their back?
This has got nothing to do with what we're talking about.
The probability is that whoever did this were "foot soldiers", completely ignorant about where their orders were ultimately coming from.
They most certainly had nothing to do with LBJ.
We're talking about setting up someone for the shooting.
The storyline of the set up is that the shooter is an employee of the TSBD and is taking the shots from the TSBD.
How is this set up going to work if people are firing from anywhere other than the TSBD?
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This has got nothing to do with what we're talking about.
The probability is that whoever did this were "foot soldiers", completely ignorant about where their orders were ultimately coming from.
They most certainly had nothing to do with LBJ.
We're talking about setting up someone for the shooting.
The storyline of the set up is that the shooter is an employee of the TSBD and is taking the shots from the TSBD.
How is this set up going to work if people are firing from anywhere other than the TSBD?
They most certainly had nothing to do with LBJ.
Dan, Ol man,.... I appreciate a person's reluctance to believe the obvious and reject that which is right in front of them. ( I think of it as akin to accepting the truth that a person's mother was one of Charlie Manson's whores, and that person's father was Charlie Manson. There are very few people who could accept that kind of harsh reality. So their only recourse is to deny, the truth.
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They most certainly had nothing to do with LBJ.
Dan, Ol man,.... I appreciate a person's reluctance to believe the obvious and reject that which is right in front of them. ( I think of it as akin to accepting the truth that a person's mother was one of Charlie Manson's whores, and that person's father was Charlie Manson. There are very few people who could accept that kind of harsh reality. So their only recourse is to deny, the truth.
So you're saying the men who carried out the assassination were personally acquainted with LBJ?
Really Walt?
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So you're saying the men who carried out the assassination were personally acquainted with LBJ?
Really Walt?
Nope!!.... They were professionals....It was merely an assignment. BUT.... They damned sure knew that they had no chance of escaping, if the hit wasn't sanctioned at the highest level of law enforcement...(Hoover and LBJ)
The fact that they escaped and left Lee Oswald as the scapegoat is proof that LBJ and Hoover provided cover for them. " I believe that something should be released from the White house to convince the simple minded suckers (American public) that Lee Harvey Oswald was simply a nut who shot JFK for no reason and he had no accomplices" ( paraphrasing Hoovers memo to LBJ)