JFK Assassination Forum

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Walt Cakebread on September 13, 2020, 11:15:44 PM

Title: The tale of two shirts
Post by: Walt Cakebread on September 13, 2020, 11:15:44 PM
The FBI reported that the "tuft of fibers" that they found on the butt plate pf the Mannlicher Carcano matched the shirt that Lee was wearing at the time he was dragged from the Texas theater.   And they inferred that it was evidence that the tuft of "fresh" fibers were caught on the butt of the rifle when Lee had the Carcano against his shoulder as he fired the rifle and murdered President Kennedy.   

The problem with their story is:.... Lee was NOT wearing the arest shirt at the time that JFK was murdered!    He went to his room at 1926 N. Beckley and removed the soiled shirt that he was wearing at the TSBD that morning and donned the shirt that he was wearing when he was dragged from the Theater by the conspirators.
Title: Re: The tale of two shirts
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 14, 2020, 01:30:48 AM
The FBI reported that the "tuft of fibers" that they found on the butt plate pf the Mannlicher Carcano matched the shirt that Lee was wearing at the time he was dragged from the Texas theater.   And they inferred that it was evidence that the tuft of "fresh" fibers were caught on the butt of the rifle when Lee had the Carcano against his shoulder as he fired the rifle and murdered President Kennedy.   

The problem with their story is:.... Lee was NOT wearing the arest shirt at the time that JFK was murdered!    He went to his room at 1926 N. Beckley and removed the soiled shirt that he was wearing at the TSBD that morning and donned the shirt that he was wearing when he was dragged from the Theater by the conspirators.

My recent topic title 'A Tale of Two Shirts' was inspired by the title of a book called 'A Tale of Two Cities'

Your topic title 'The Tale of Two Shirts' would better serve the forum by renaming it, due to my prior Lovelady-based content, by something like 'Another Tale of Two Shirts'
Title: Re: The tale of two shirts
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 15, 2020, 02:25:56 AM
oswald Is supposed to have changed  the darker blue jacket for a light gray jacket ( which became the “white jacket found under a car”)

There  be some kind of logical reason for the shooter to change appearance If having concern of any witness to the shooter while in the 6th floor window

However, selecting a shirt of virtually identical color and textural pattern to a shirt worn during the shooting and or seen by Baker/Truly just 90 sec post shots, seems inconsistent, (imo)

If Not the shooter, however, the act of changing jacket and shirt is now more a function of changing work clothes for fresher, thus the inconsistency of not selecting distinctly different shirt is insignificant.
Title: Re: The tale of two shirts
Post by: Gerry Down on September 15, 2020, 03:19:11 AM
The FBI reported that the "tuft of fibers" that they found on the butt plate pf the Mannlicher Carcano matched the shirt that Lee was wearing at the time he was dragged from the Texas theater.

This was one of the weaker points in the Warren Report. The tuft of fibers could have been there for weeks.

A question the Warren Commission never answered is how come there was no blanket fibers on the rifle. Afterall, it was supposedly wrapped, with a tight string, for weeks before the Thursday night. No blanket fibers means Oswald didn't necessarily get it the night before from the blanket, which supports the idea the 27 inch package Oswald carried in to work on the Friday morning did not contain the rifle.

The rifle should have been covered in blanket fibers.
Title: Re: The tale of two shirts
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 15, 2020, 03:40:56 AM
The rifle should have been covered in blanket fibers.
This one puzzled me.....
Quote
  About 3 hours after the assassination, a detective and deputy sheriff saw the blanket-roll, tied with a string, lying on the floor of the Paines' garage. Each man testified that he thought he could detect the outline of a rifle in the blanket, even though the blanket was empty.113 Paul M. Stombaugh, of the FBI Laboratory, examined the blanket and discovered a bulge approximately 10 inches long midway in the blanket. This bulge was apparently caused by a hard protruding.....
p 128 https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-4.html#fibers
Why would someone remove a supposed rifle from said blanket and then leave or re-tie the blanket with said string...carefully  leaving said protrusions intact?  :D Laughable
 
 
My recent topic title 'A Tale of Two Shirts' was inspired by the title of a book called 'A Tale of Two Cities'
  I doubt that Chapman ever read "A Tale of Two Cities". However, Charles Dickens could have probably written the Warren Report and done a much better job. 
Title: Re: The tale of two shirts
Post by: Gerry Down on September 15, 2020, 04:06:21 AM
Why would someone remove a supposed rifle from said blanket and then leave or re-tie the blanket with said string...carefully  leaving said protrusions intact?

The Warren Report:

About 3 hours after the assassination, a detective and deputy sheriff
saw the blanket-roll, tied with a string, lying on the floor of the Paines'
garage. Each man testified that he thought he could detect the outline
of a rifle in the blanket, even though the blanket was empty.
Paul M. Stombaugh, of the FBI Laboratory, examined the blanket
and discovered a bulge approximately 10 inches long midway in the
blanket.

This is suspect. Ruth Paine stood on the blanket (itself an oddity that was never explained) when Marina pointed to it so any bulge should have been flattened. There was no time to see any bulge.
Title: Re: The tale of two shirts
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 15, 2020, 07:29:39 AM
This one puzzled me..... p 128 https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-4.html#fibers
Why would someone remove a supposed rifle from said blanket and then leave or re-tie the blanket with said string...carefully  leaving said protrusions intact?  :D Laughable
 
I doubt that Chapman ever read "A Tale of Two Cities". However, Charles Dickens could have probably written the Warren Report and done a much better job.

:D

I doubt that Chapman ever read "A Tale of Two Cities". However, Charles Dickens could have probably written the Warren Report and done a much better job.
Where did I say I read 'A Tale of Two Cities?'. And what has that to do with my post other than the book title was what inspired my title?

Title: Re: The tale of two shirts
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 15, 2020, 08:03:59 AM
This was one of the weaker points in the Warren Report. The tuft of fibers could have been there for weeks.

A question the Warren Commission never answered is how come there was no blanket fibers on the rifle. Afterall, it was supposedly wrapped, with a tight string, for weeks before the Thursday night. No blanket fibers means Oswald didn't necessarily get it the night before from the blanket, which supports the idea the 27 inch package Oswald carried in to work on the Friday morning did not contain the rifle.

The rifle should have been covered in blanket fibers.

The blanket was threadbare.
Title: Re: The tale of two shirts
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 15, 2020, 09:35:54 PM
The blanket was threadbare.
And you know this how?
Title: Re: The tale of two shirts
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 15, 2020, 11:29:44 PM
The FBI reported that the "tuft of fibers" that they found on the butt plate pf the Mannlicher Carcano matched the shirt that Lee was wearing at the time he was dragged from the Texas theater.   And they inferred that it was evidence that the tuft of "fresh" fibers were caught on the butt of the rifle when Lee had the Carcano against his shoulder as he fired the rifle and murdered President Kennedy.   

The problem with their story is:.... Lee was NOT wearing the arest shirt at the time that JFK was murdered!    He went to his room at 1926 N. Beckley and removed the soiled shirt that he was wearing at the TSBD that morning and donned the shirt that he was wearing when he was dragged from the Theater by the conspirators.

What's the changing of the shirt based on? No hole in the elbow in photos taken at DPD?

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3f/30/14/3f301498b50fd75fd86e64c9edee2e5e.jpg)
 
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4bR680F/oswald-shirt-hole1.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
Source: John Mytton
 
(https://i.vgy.me/Fn0cJI.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
Source: Charles Collins
 
Title: Re: The tale of two shirts
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 17, 2020, 07:10:18 PM
What's the changing of the shirt based on? No hole in the elbow in photos taken at DPD?
Mary Bledsoe said she saw a hole in the right elbow of the shirt when Oswald supposedly boarded her bus.
However as Jerry points out...where is it?


 (http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1593766485598/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence/Screen%20Shot%202020-07-03%20at%201.52.06%20AM.png)

This thread was already done months ago. Mary Bledsoe's ID of Oswald was a hole in a shirt that the FBI showed her [BTW there was no Oswald arm in it at the time] How full of krapp was that?
 
However---a holey shirt was produced in the archive photos of it...
It almost seems like in order for the Bledsoe statement to not be full of krapp...a hole in the right sleeve became necessary. One might note that the bottom of the shirt is torn [likely when Oswald got in a fight with police]

 
 (http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1504195152022/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence/brownshirthole.png?height=290&width=320)

So---- where did that hole come from? And when was it made?
For more details....
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence
Title: Re: The tale of two shirts
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 17, 2020, 10:15:30 PM
 At 12:44, 14 minutes after the shooting, Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer called in a description of the presumed assassin. He announced: "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester." He was then asked to confirm that this was a rifle. He responded: "A rifle, yes." He was then asked "Any clothing description?" He responded "Current witness can't remember that."

As a side note the "slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165" is the same exact description...word for word... of a guy that was in Mexico City claiming to be Lee Oswald. The middle name was also given...but it was not Harvey...it was Henry*
Quote

    *DIR 84730
    This is the Oct. 10, 1963 reply to MEXI 6543, reporting an accurate physical description of Lee "Henry" Oswald.
    https://www.history-matters.com/frameup.htm


Meanwhile back to the shirt...
Motorcycle Officer Marrion Baker, who?d encountered Oswald in a stairway within a minute and a half of the shooting, described Oswald's clothing as different than the man seen in the window (11-22-63 Affidavit, 24H199): ?The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5?9?, 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.?

I just posted this under the Oswald's Jacket thread...
A statement from Wes Frazier's sister.....
Quote

    Mr. BALL. How was Lee dressed that morning?
        Mrs. RANDLE. He had on a white T-shirt, I just saw him from the waist up, I didn't pay any attention to his pants or anything, when he was going with the package. I was more interested in that. But he had on a white T-shirt and I remember some sort of brown or tan shirt and he had a gray jacket, I believe.

   
The complete post is here..
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,124.msg16375.html#msg16375

There was this Mary Bledsoe woman who stated she was a former landlady of Oswald's.
Quote

    Mr. BALL - And the bus was going in what direction?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - West.
    Mr. BALL - All right, now, tell me what happened?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - And, after we got past Akard, at Murphy---I figured it out. Let's see. I don't know for sure. Oswald got on. He looks like a maniac. His sleeve was out here [indicating]. His shirt was undone.
    Mr. BALL - You are indicating a sleeve of a shirt?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
    Mr. BALL - It was unraveled?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Was a hole in it, hole, and he was dirty, and I didn't look at him.

****************************************************************
Again asked about the shirt...
Quote

    Mr. BALL - Now, what color shirt did he have on?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - He had a brown shirt.
    Mr. BALL - And unraveled?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Hole in his sleeve right here [indicating].
    Mr. BALL - Which is the elbow of the sleeve? That is, you pointed to the elbow?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, it is.
    Mr. BALL - And that would be which elbow, right or left elbow?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Right.
    Mr. BALL - Did he have anything on. Was the shirt open or was it buttoned?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; all the buttons torn off.

************************************************************
This stuff about the shirt must have really bothered the Commission.
Ball would not let it go.
Quote

    Mr. BALL - Now, I have got a piece of clothing here, which is marked---
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - That is it.
    Mr. BALL - Commission Exhibit 150.
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - That is it.
    Mr. BALL - This is a shirt.
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - That is it.
    Mr. BALL - What do you mean by "that is it?"
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Because they brought it out to the house and showed it.
    Mr. BALL - I know. What do you mean by "that is it?"
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, because I can recognize it.
    Mr. BALL - Recognize it as what?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes, sir; see there?

Ball goes on and on...
Quote

    Mr. BALL - Now, what is there about the shirt that makes you believe that this is the shirt that Oswald had on when he was on the bus? What is there about it?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, let's see the front of it. Yes See all this [indicating]? I remember that.
    Mr. BALL - Tell me what you see there?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - I saw the---no; not so much that. It was done after---that is part I recognize more than anything.
    Mr. BALL - You are pointing to a hole in the right elbow?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
    Mr. BALL - What about the color?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, I---What do you mean?
    Mr. BALL - Well----
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - When he had it on?
    Mr. BALL - Yes.
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Before he was shot? Yes; I remember it being brown.
    Mr. BALL - You remember the shirt being brown. Was it this color?
    Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; it was that color.
    Mr. BALL - In other words, when you remember that you have seen something before---

Enough for now about Bledsoe... :P
It continues like this for another page !!
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bledsoe.htm


Was the shirt that Ms Randle saw, the same shirt that Patrolman Baker saw, & the same shirt that Ms Bledsoe saw which was the same shirt that Oswald was arrested in?
MORE........
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,771.msg16387.html#msg16387