JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Gerry Down on August 27, 2020, 05:00:46 PM
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Presuming Oswald was the assassin, here is how his 3 shots could have panned out:
1st Shot: Struck Kennedy in back. It was a faulty round and so only went in 1 inch on Kennedys back (as per the autopsy doctors accounts). It fell out during cardiac massage at Parkland. This bullet is CE399.
2nd Shot: Struck Connally and caused all his wounds. He said a bullet fell from him to the floor when he was being moved onto the operating table. This is why this bullet has never been recovered.
3rd Shot: Struck Kennedy in the head. One fragment (perhaps a bone fragment) was deflected down through Kennedys head and caused the throat wound (this would explain why this wound was described as being as small as 3mm). Another fragment exited Kennedys head and caused the cracked windshield. And another fragment exited Kennedys head and flew over the limo and hit James Tague.
3 shots can account for all the wounds, including Tagues wound. It also explains why CE399 is in such pristine condition.
If Kennedy was shot at Z210 for example, Connally might have been struck 2.3 seconds later at Z252. Any earlier reaction by Connally (as seen on the Zapruder film) might simply be Connally jumping in surprise to Kennedys reaction behind him (perhaps a small agonizing shout in pain by Kennedy) rather than Connally actually reacting to being struck by a bullet.
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All of that plus I think the first shot came a lot ealier than most of us think. We generally think LO had ony 5+ seconds to get off 3 shots but he really only had to get off 2 shots in 5+ seconds. There's a good bit of time between JC's reaction to a shot and Z 313. And, Dr. Perry was simply wrong about the troat wound being a wound of entry.
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Except Tague said he heard another shot after being struck.
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Except Tague said he heard another shot after being struck.
Motorcycle backfire.
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But he only heard 3 shots, including that one.
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Presuming Oswald was the assassin, here is how his 3 shots could have panned out:
1st Shot: Struck Kennedy in back. It was a faulty round and so only went in 1 inch on Kennedys back (as per the autopsy doctors accounts). It fell out during cardiac massage at Parkland. This bullet is CE399.
2nd Shot: Struck Connally and caused all his wounds. He said a bullet fell from him to the floor when he was being moved onto the operating table. This is why this bullet has never been recovered.
3rd Shot: Struck Kennedy in the head. One fragment (perhaps a bone fragment) was deflected down through Kennedys head and caused the throat wound (this would explain why this wound was described as being as small as 3mm). Another fragment exited Kennedys head and caused the cracked windshield. And another fragment exited Kennedys head and flew over the limo and hit James Tague.
3 shots can account for all the wounds, including Tagues wound. It also explains why CE399 is in such pristine condition.
If Kennedy was shot at Z210 for example, Connally might have been struck 2.3 seconds later at Z252. Any earlier reaction by Connally (as seen on the Zapruder film) might simply be Connally jumping in surprise to Kennedys reaction behind him (perhaps a small agonizing shout in pain by Kennedy) rather than Connally actually reacting to being struck by a bullet.
And another fragment exited Kennedys head and flew over the limo Cuckoo's Nest
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Check out this video that was in the movie "JFK"
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Presuming Oswald was the assassin, here is how his 3 shots could have panned out:
1st Shot: Struck Kennedy in back. It was a faulty round and so only went in 1 inch on Kennedys back (as per the autopsy doctors accounts). It fell out during cardiac massage at Parkland. This bullet is CE399.
2nd Shot: Struck Connally and caused all his wounds. He said a bullet fell from him to the floor when he was being moved onto the operating table. This is why this bullet has never been recovered.
3rd Shot: Struck Kennedy in the head. One fragment (perhaps a bone fragment) was deflected down through Kennedys head and caused the throat wound (this would explain why this wound was described as being as small as 3mm). Another fragment exited Kennedys head and caused the cracked windshield. And another fragment exited Kennedys head and flew over the limo and hit James Tague.
3 shots can account for all the wounds, including Tagues wound. It also explains why CE399 is in such pristine condition.
If Kennedy was shot at Z210 for example, Connally might have been struck 2.3 seconds later at Z252. Any earlier reaction by Connally (as seen on the Zapruder film) might simply be Connally jumping in surprise to Kennedys reaction behind him (perhaps a small agonizing shout in pain by Kennedy) rather than Connally actually reacting to being struck by a bullet.
1st Shot: Struck Kennedy in back. It was a faulty round and so only went in 1 inch on Kennedys back (as per the autopsy doctors accounts). It fell out during cardiac massage at Parkland. This bullet is CE399.
That's the beauty of theories.... anything is possible in a theory! But in reality, you run into the problem that the bullet Tomlinson found at Parkland Hospital was no way near Kennedy's stretcher. Cardiac arrest was tried on Kennedy in Emergeny One, which was some way away from the elevator that Tomlinson operated.
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Presuming Oswald was the assassin, here is how his 3 shots could have panned out:
1st Shot: Struck Kennedy in back. It was a faulty round and so only went in 1 inch on Kennedys back (as per the autopsy doctors accounts). It fell out during cardiac massage at Parkland. This bullet is CE399.
2nd Shot: Struck Connally and caused all his wounds. He said a bullet fell from him to the floor when he was being moved onto the operating table. This is why this bullet has never been recovered.
3rd Shot: Struck Kennedy in the head. One fragment (perhaps a bone fragment) was deflected down through Kennedys head and caused the throat wound (this would explain why this wound was described as being as small as 3mm). Another fragment exited Kennedys head and caused the cracked windshield.
This is basically the FBI's and the Secret Service's shooting scenario. Many people don't know that the FBI rejected the single-bullet theory, even after the Warren Commission published its report. Hoover didn't buy it. Of course, we now know that LBJ didn't buy it either, nor did three members of the WC itself (Russell, Boggs, and Cooper). Your shooting scenario is also the scenario indicated in the second draft of the autopsy report.
Another fragment exited Kennedys head and caused the cracked windshield.
From a bullet that struck the head at a 15-degree downward angle?! How would that have worked?
Leaving aside that problem, what about the round dent in the chrome? What about the round hole in the windshield? What about the fragment that was found in the limo in DC during the autopsy and that was received by Dr. Young? What about the sizable fragments that Dennis David typed a receipt for on the night of the autopsy? What about the numerous fragments that mortician Tom Robinson saw Humes remove during the autopsy? What about the three sizable fragments that Dr. Gregory removed from Connally's wrist (Nurse Bell verified this several times)? All of these fragments, plus the limo bullet, add up to at least five bullets. The HSCA determined that the DPD dictabelt has at least four gunshot impulses on it.
And another fragment exited Kennedys head and flew over the limo and hit James Tague.
Again, from a bullet that struck the head at a 15-degree downward angle?! That's crazy. How would the fragment have cleared not only the windshield but the roll bar? How would it have managed to travel 260 feet, against the wind, and still have enough velocity to dive down and strike the curb with sufficient force and/or to cut Tague's face? We're talking about almost an entire football field--again, flying against the 10-14 mph wind that was blowing toward the limo that day.
There's also the fact that Tague was certain that he heard another shot after he was stung.
You might want to read my OP in my thread on this issue:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2692.msg97584.html#msg97584
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Leaving aside that problem, what about the round dent in the chrome? What about the round hole in the windshield? What about the fragment that was found in the limo in DC during the autopsy and that was received by Dr. Young? What about the sizable fragments that Dennis David typed a receipt for on the night of the autopsy? What about the numerous fragments that mortician Tom Robinson saw Humes remove during the autopsy? What about the three sizable fragments that Dr. Gregory removed from Connally's wrist (Nurse Bell verified this several times)? All of these fragments, plus the limo bullet, add up to at least five bullets. The HSCA determined that the DPD dictabelt has at least four gunshot impulses on it.[/size]
"At least five bullets". Sure. If you're gullible enough to believe witnesses get every last thing right.
Again, from a bullet that struck the head at a 15-degree downward angle?! That's crazy. How would the fragment have cleared not only the windshield but the roll bar?
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/tague/tague-hit-z312-projection.jpg)
I'm not saying it happened, but it's possible for a fragment from the head shot to avoid the roll bar. Not much more deflection than the fragment that supposedly struck the steel windshield frame.
How would it have managed to travel 260 feet, against the wind, and still have enough velocity to dive down and strike the curb with sufficient force and/or to cut Tague's face? We're talking about almost an entire football field--again, flying against the 10-14 mph wind that was blowing toward the limo that day.
Have experiments and testing been done, or are you just making things up?
There's also the fact that Tague was certain that he heard another shot after he was stung.
Doesn't mean for sure it happened that way.
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"At least five bullets". Sure. If you're gullible enough to believe witnesses get every last thing right.
Dennis David handled the fragments after he typed the receipt. The chief petty officer who found the smashed bullet in the limo confirmed that he gave it to Dr. Young, and Dr. Young has confirmed that he received it. It's pretty hard to ask us to believe that they were all just "mistaken."
And we know that another bullet was found in Dealey Plaza because, thanks to the ARRB, we have the FBI evidence envelope in which it was placed--the bullet is gone, but the envelope identifies its contents as a rifle bullet.
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/tague/tague-hit-z312-projection.jpg)
I'm not saying it happened, but it's possible for a fragment from the head shot to avoid the roll bar.
When you posted this goofy image before, I asked you how on earth the bullet would have made such a sharp upward turn. The bullet, if it came from the sixth-floor window, entered the skull at a downward angle of 15 degrees. Your goofy graphic has the bullet suddenly, magically veering sharply upward in order to clear fly just beneath the roll bar and over the windshield. That so ridiculous that it doesn't even qualify as remotely possible, but I know you'll just keep repeating and keep posting this graphic.
Not much more deflection than the fragment that supposedly struck the steel windshield frame.
Here we go again. And when you made this silly argument last time, I pointed out that even Canning said that the trajectory from the lone-gunman head shot did not line up with the windshield damage, much less with the dent in the chrome.
Part of the problem is that you refuse to acknowledge the evidence that shots came from other locations in the plaza, and so you base every argument on the assumption that any and all shots came from the sixth-floor window, never mind that the only credible rear head entry site does not even remotely line up with that window--that's why the conspirators tried to move the wound 4 inches upward.
Have experiments and testing been done, or are you just making things up?
Well, I have fired rifle bullets hundreds of times, mostly FMJs, and I've retrieved some bullets after they were fired. Anyone with any experience with rifle bullets knows that when bullets plough through two hard surfaces (such as a skull), they do not have a whole lot of velocity remaining, and they surely do not usually magically veer upward between the two surfaces. When a bullet has gone through two hard surfaces and several inches of tissue in between those surfaces, it is not going to have enough velocity to fly 260 feet, nearly an entire football field, against the wind, and still have enough force to chip a curb or cut a human face.
It should tell you something that even Posner and Moore don't peddle this nonsense.
Doesn't mean for sure it happened that way.
Uh, no, we have photographic evidence that confirms Tague's account that he moved under the underpass after he got stung. Dr. Thomas notes that photos taken in Dealey Plaza during the shooting confirm that Tague moved under the triple underpass. Tague also recalled that he heard a shot after he got under the underpass. As Dr. Thomas notes, "Quite obviously, if he heard a shot after he ducked under the bridge, then he could not have been wounded by the last shot" (Hear No Evil, p. 378).
I know what your answer is: "mistaken, mistaken, just a coincidence, mistaken, coincidence."
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And did anyone mention the bullet that hit the pavement and it's fragments hit JFK in the back of the and he then said "I'm hit".
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And did anyone mention the bullet that hit the pavement and it's fragments hit JFK in the back of the and he then said "I'm hit".
Kellerman, sitting back on to Kennedy and in the front seat, claimed he heard the President speak, with a Boston accent. Mrs. Kennedy and Nellie Connally were much closer to Kennedy and generally turned in his direction, and they both said the only words spoken during the shooting came from the Governor. The driver, Bill Greer, said he heard only the Governor.
The throat had been wounded near the midline, making it near-impossible for the President to be able to speak loud enough to be heard in the front seat.
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He’s quoted as saying “my god, I’ve been hit” which would have been before the frontal throat shot. The way I understand it the first shot hit the pavement and fragments hit him in the back of the head and he could have said it then. Or, after he got hit in the back so two opportunities for him to speak.
Instead of trying to figure out how many shots there were, count the wounds;
1. JFK being hit in the back of the head with ricochet fragments
2. JFK being hit in the back.
3. JFK being hit in the throat, was described as an entry wound.
4. Connolly hit in the back
5. JFK being hit in the head.
An interesting observation I made about the throat shot, if that bullet is the same one that went through the windshield then there was another shooter in a parking lot on the other side of Commerce Street. That makes possibly four shooters, 6th floor TSBD, DalTex building, grassy knoll, and the parking lot.
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He’s quoted as saying “my god, I’ve been hit” which would have been before the frontal throat shot. The way I understand it the first shot hit the pavement and fragments hit him in the back of the head and he could have said it then. Or, after he got hit in the back so two opportunities for him to speak.
But then Mrs. Kennedy and both Connallys would have heard the President speak during the shooting, especially if he said that loud enough to be heard by Kellerman.
Instead of trying to figure out how many shots there were, count the wounds;
1. JFK being hit in the back of the head with ricochet fragments
2. JFK being hit in the back.
3. JFK being hit in the throat, was described as an entry wound.
4. Connolly hit in the back
5. JFK being hit in the head.
No.1 didn't happen.
Nos. 2, 3 and 4 are part of the SBT.
So, instead of FIVE separate shots, we have two, counting the head shot.
An interesting observation I made about the throat shot, if that bullet is the same one that went through the windshield then there was another shooter in a parking lot on the other side of Commerce Street. That makes possibly four shooters, 6th floor TSBD, DalTex building, grassy knoll, and the parking lot.
Funny how that throat shot from the South Knoll ended on on a line from Kennedy's C7 in-shoot to Connally's back in-shoot.
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You said it yourself Kellerman heard him say something and I can’t speak for the ladies, they were probably preoccupied with the gunfire. Ever been under fire, weird things can happen.
We have a witness that saw the results of the ricochet bullet hitting the pavement and weren’t there frags embedded in the back of JFK’s head?
The throat shot was and entry wound from the front.
We have lots of witnesses saying they heard a shot and saw smoke on the grassy knoll. A shot came from the grassy knoll how is it that you can say they are wrong, you weren’t there, they were. You have to think like how a jury would react to this information.
Funny how that throat shot from the South Knoll ended on on a line from Kennedy's C7 in-shoot to Connelly’s back in-shoot. Please clarify, I don’t understand.
So, instead of FIVE separate shots, we have two, counting the head shot. Wanna try that one again?
One thing about the witnesses of the grassy knoll, some of them were very near the line of fire. Being close to the line of fire means that they will hear the “crack” of the bullet as it cracking the sound barrier and they would then hear the “thump” which is the muzzle blast. Once you hear the “crack-thump” you know the direction of the shot.
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Except Tague said he heard another shot after being struck.
Well, who am I to question the reliability of a witness’s memory? :)
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Well, who am I to question the reliability of a witness’s memory? :)
From Tague's testimony:
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark [on his face]?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?
Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And I did notice the time on the Hertz clock. It was 12:29.
"I believe", "I believe", "I believe."
If JFK was shot from the front - and the bullet exited the back of his head - I am perplexed as to how Tague could be hit by a fragment. Okay, I admit it: I'm not really perplexed <g>.
Full testimony here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tague.htm
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how Tague could be hit by a fragment. No lack of candidates ...
"Three volleys of shots were fired--at least six and perhaps as
many as nine--most probably using fragmenting bullets or
"sabot" slugs which could be traced to Oswald's 6.54 mm rifle."
-- Jim Marrs, Crossfire, 1989
The shots ramp up when they assign one to every individual wound. There's up to four shots that struck Kennedy:
- Back Wound
(some claim the autopsy pictures show two back wounds) - Throat Wound
- Head Wound Entering at Rear
- Head Wound Entering at Front
(Tink has 3 and 4 striking almost simultaneously)
Connally may have up to three shots striking him:
- Back Wound
- Radius Wound
- Thigh Wound
There's also the missed shots:
- A shot into the pavement
- A shot down by the manhole cover
- A shot or ricochet to the area of Tague
- McLaren has one that struck the east side of the Underpass
Funny bullets, though, some only penetrate a half-inch of soft tissue and fall out.
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Counting shots again:
1. Ricochet bullet off the pavement frags hitting JFK in the back of the head. Witnessed by a bookkeeper from the TSBD and several others. JFK said “my god, I’ve been hit”. Maybe frame 214
2. JFK front throat wound – judged an entry wound by a nurse with considerable experience which had to have come from the front. Maybe frame 223
3. JFK back wound –at which time he leans forward grabbing his chest. Maybe frame 260
4. Grassy knoll JFK head shot – so many witnesses said a bullet came from the grassy knoll. Maybe frame 313
5. JFK Hickey head shot – Jean Hill saw men in plain clothes shooting back. I think 4 & 5 were simultaneous. Connolly starts to turn back around while JFK is holding his throat. Then JFK lowers his hands to his chest, Connolly is almost straight forward and JFK gets hit in the head. Maybe frame 313.
6. Connolly back wound – If you study the Z film Connolly is still turning, hat in hand, when JFK’s head explodes. Connolly testified that he was complexly turned around and about to turn in the other backwards direction when he was hit. Maybe frame 324.
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If JFK was shot from the front - and the bullet exited the back of his head - I am perplexed as to how Tague could be hit by a fragment. Okay, I admit it: I'm not really perplexed <g>.
Who said that Tague was struck by a fragment from a frontal shot?
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The shot from the front hit JFK in the throat and I don't think it exited his body.
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The shot from the front hit JFK in the throat and I don't think it exited his body.
What happened to the bullet?
It wasn't there at autopsy.
Nor was the bullet that entered the "back" of the President and is alleged to not have transited the neck.
These are peculiar bullets. Don't penetrate deep and fall out.
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What happened to the bullet?
It wasn't there at autopsy.
Nor was the bullet that entered the "back" of the President and is alleged to not have transited the neck.
These are peculiar bullets. Don't penetrate deep and fall out.
These silly, disingenuous questions have already been answered. They were answered in the 1990s and have been answered again and again many times since then.
If you want to talk about "peculiar" things, how about the EOP-to-right-eye fragment trail described in the autopsy report? Where is it? It's not on the extant x-rays. So where did it go?
How about the high fragment trail? Why didn't the autopsy doctors say anything about it in the autopsy report? Surely Finck and Ebersole, at least, would not have committed such a blunder as to describe the high fragment trail as running between the EOP and the right eye.
How about 6.5 mm object? The autopsy report says nothing about it. (Of course, we know now--and I mean know--that the object was planted on the x-ray; we even know how it was done.)
How about the cowlick entry site? The autopsy doctors said the entry site was 4 inches lower, just above the EOP. Were they blind? Ah, but the cowlick entry site does not appear on the skull x-rays. All three of the ARRB's forensic experts confirmed this, and a whole bunch of other doctors have subsequently confirmed it. Oops, but the EOP site could not have been hit by a bullet fired from the alleged Oswald window.
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I don’t know what happened to the bullet but a very experienced nurse said it was an entry wound.
Autopsy was performed at Bethesda and that was part of the cover-up. So a bullet from the front would not work in the single shooter scenario.
From what I have read they didn’t do much to the body, following bullet paths etc,
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I don’t know what happened to the bullet but a very experienced nurse said it was an entry wound.
Autopsy was performed at Bethesda and that was part of the cover-up. So a bullet from the front would not work in the single shooter scenario.
Technically it could have been an exit wound from a skull fragment exiting down and out through the throat.
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I believe the people that inspected the throat wound said it was a "round entry wound". An exit wound from a large fragment would have created a wound that was ill-regular in shape and the tissue would have been blown outward. It wouldn't take an expert to say it way an entry or an exit wound.
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Quote from: Mike Carney on September 10, 2020, 12:51:51 PM
"The shot from the front hit JFK in the throat and I don't think it exited his body."
What happened to the bullet? It wasn't there at autopsy.
Let's just say--It wasn't found at the autopsy.
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And there could be a lot of reasons for them not finding a bullet but the main reason is: the coverup was going on at Bethesda, they hid the original wound with a tracheotomy. They couldn't have an entrance wound from the front, that blows the single shooter theory.
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Quote from: Mike Carney on September 10, 2020, 12:51:51 PM
"The shot from the front hit JFK in the throat and I don't think it exited his body."
Let's just say--It wasn't found at the autopsy.
A bullet did roll out at the autopsy. Admiral Osborne saw it and was then silenced.
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I read that a nurse had found the bullet laying next to JFK between his shoulder and his ear. She said "parallel" so I am assuming parallel to his neck. A lot of bullets found just laying there????