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General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Michael O'Brian on February 20, 2018, 08:15:37 PM

Title: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Michael O'Brian on February 20, 2018, 08:15:37 PM
Can anyone please provide a bit of clarification on the power to the elevators etc within the TSBD, what needs to be explained and clarified is the fact that at some stage either during the shooting or in the very near aftermath some lifts were not working.
So can we hear what is clear fact on this matter ie, was it before during or after the shots that this power cut happened???
Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Michael O'Brian on February 22, 2018, 05:55:31 PM
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Can anyone please provide a bit of clarification on the power to the elevators etc within the TSBD, what needs to be explained and clarified is the fact that at some stage either during the shooting or in the very near aftermath some lifts were not working.
So can we hear what is clear fact on this matter ie, was it before during or after the shots that this power cut happened???
Thanks in advance.

Geneva Hine, the only employee in the Depository's second floor offices, observes the electrical power and telephone go dead. The WC will not question a single employee, including building manager Roy Truly, about the mysterious interruption of  electric or telephone service, nor will they ask the location of the electric and telephone panels. Moments after the shooting Ms. Hine knocks on the door of Southwestern Publishing (Room 203 in the TSBD). She sees a woman through the opaque glass, hears her talking on the phone, and continues knocking on the door, but the woman never answers.

Researcher John Armstrong has questioned why a phone worked in one office when electrical service and telephone service went dead everywhere else in the TSBD.  The woman using the phone, Mrs. John L (Carol) Hughes, was NOT questioned by the WC.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 22, 2018, 07:14:16 PM
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Geneva Hine, the only employee in the Depository's second floor offices, observes the electrical power and telephone go dead. The WC will not question a single employee, including building manager Roy Truly, about the mysterious interruption of  electric or telephone service, nor will they ask the location of the electric and telephone panels. Moments after the shooting Ms. Hine knocks on the door of Southwestern Publishing (Room 203 in the TSBD). She sees a woman through the opaque glass, hears her talking on the phone, and continues knocking on the door, but the woman never answers.

Researcher John Armstrong has questioned why a phone worked in one office when electrical service and telephone service went dead everywhere else in the TSBD.  The woman using the phone, Mrs. John L (Carol) Hughes, was NOT questioned by the WC.

John Armstrong has questioned why a phone worked in one office when electrical service and telephone service went dead everywhere else in the TSBD.

If Mrs Hughes was already talking on the phone when the electrical power was interrupted it would not effect her phone.

Telephones only require electrical power to operate the ringer bell.    Once the connection is made an outside source of power is unnecessary.

Geneva Hine, the only employee in the Depository's second floor offices, observes the electrical power and telephone go dead.

Mrs Hine saw the SWITCHBOARD lose power..... 

The power was cut immediately after the shooting.....  That electrical power interruption may be the reason that Baker and Truly couldn't operate the elevator..... 

Someone opened the electrical disconnect at the power lines that fed power to the electrical distribution panel for the building.   This act immediately following the shooting was intentional.....   And it may have been untended to trap Lee Oswald on the sixth floor or an elevator....if he had been on an elevator when the power was cut.

Lee was NOT on the sixth floor as they had planned and thought he would be ....He was on the first floor.



Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 22, 2018, 11:50:30 PM
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Telephones only require electrical power to operate the ringer bell.

Even that comes through the phone line, not the building electrical.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Michael O'Brian on February 23, 2018, 02:05:31 AM
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John Armstrong has questioned why a phone worked in one office when electrical service and telephone service went dead everywhere else in the TSBD.

If Mrs Hughes was already talking on the phone when the electrical power was interrupted it would not effect her phone.

 

Someone opened the electrical disconnect at the power lines that fed power to the electrical distribution panel for the building.   This act immediately following the shooting was intentional.....   And it may have been untended to trap Lee Oswald on the sixth floor or an elevator....if he had been on an elevator when the power was cut.

Lee was NOT on the sixth floor as they had planned and thought he would be ....He was on the first floor.

This alone proves that more than one person was behind that shooting, it's a good scenario that you suggest with the reason being an attempt to trap Oswald, but I would have guessed it was to slow down the cops from getting access to the higher floors and so the empty shells etc could be dropped, in time for the planter to escape
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on February 23, 2018, 02:41:57 PM


         It's more probable that an alleged power cut at the TSBD was peripheral damage resulting from the Primary Target/ Dal Tex Bld having its' power cut.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Michael O'Brian on February 23, 2018, 02:56:18 PM
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         It's more probable that an alleged power cut at the TSBD was peripheral damage resulting from the Primary Target/ Dal Tex Bld having its' power cut.

Thanks for the input, can you put up any more info links etc please, this just gets better almost unbelievable, that L.H.O is blamed on this when so much points to obvious multiple involvement.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on February 23, 2018, 03:04:30 PM
No conspiracy theory ever dies or even fades away.  It just waits around to be revived again and again.  There is no credible evidence of any power cut at the TSBD.  Nor is there is any reasonable explanation for why any conspirator would cut the power or phones for a few seconds.  If the purpose was to keep the police from using the elevator, that would also preclude any assassin from using it to escape the building.  Instead it places both the police and assassin on the stairs.  And how exactly would such an event be coordinated?  It is preposterous.  No reason to reiterate all the prior discussions but it's clear that Hine is referring to the fact that there were no incoming calls at the time the motorcade approached which allowed her to go to the window to take a look.  Her use of the phrase "the lights all went dead" is used in conjunction with the phone which was her responsibility to answer.  She is simply saying there were no incoming calls at that moment which allowed her an opportunity to take a peak at the motorcade.  Photos also confirm the Hertz sign atop the building was functional at 12:30 moments after the assassination.  So there was power on in the building.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay at your desk?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 23, 2018, 05:59:45 PM
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No conspiracy theory ever dies or even fades away.  It just waits around to be revived again and again.  There is no credible evidence of any power cut at the TSBD.  Nor is there is any reasonable explanation for why any conspirator would cut the power or phones for a few seconds.  If the purpose was to keep the police from using the elevator, that would also preclude any assassin from using it to escape the building.  Instead it places both the police and assassin on the stairs.  And how exactly would such an event be coordinated?  It is preposterous.  No reason to reiterate all the prior discussions but it's clear that Hine is referring to the fact that there were no incoming calls at the time the motorcade approached which allowed her to go to the window to take a look.  Her use of the phrase "the lights all went dead" is used in conjunction with the phone which was her responsibility to answer.  She is simply saying there were no incoming calls at that moment which allowed her an opportunity to take a peak at the motorcade.  Photos also confirm the Hertz sign atop the building was functional at 12:30 moments after the assassination.  So there was power on in the building.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay at your desk?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office.

Why would a motorcade going by a building cause incoming calls to stop?

Luke Mooney - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator.

Victoria Adams - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.

Let me guess....they were both "mistaken".

Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on February 23, 2018, 07:16:55 PM
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Why would a motorcade going by a building cause incoming calls to stop?

Luke Mooney - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator.

Victoria Adams - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.

Let me guess....they were both "mistaken".

Why would it cause the power to go out?  My guess it that what she means is that because the motorcade was approaching that most people were out on the streets and not making calls.  We have gone through the elevator nonsense before.  There were DPD members who took the front elevator at the same time and it was operational.  You are also mixing apples and oranges relying on Hine for a power outage at the time of the assassination and then citing an elevator ride that takes places later.  Do you believe the power was out for that entire time and no one else noticed?  And the Hertz sign was operational - so there is no doubt that there was power in the building.  And again why would your fantasy conspirators - the ones you always deny you are alleging - cut the power for a few seconds or minutes?  And how do they coordinate this with ongoing events to their advantage?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on February 23, 2018, 07:28:49 PM
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Why would it cause the power to go out?  My guess it that what she means is that because the motorcade was approaching that most people were out on the streets and not making calls.  We have gone through the elevator nonsense before.  There were DPD members who took the front elevator at the same time and it was operational.  You are also mixing apples and oranges relying on Hine for a power outage at the time of the assassination and then citing an elevator ride that takes places later.  Do you believe the power was out for that entire time and no one else noticed?  And the Hertz sign was operational - so there is no doubt that there was power in the building.  And again why would your fantasy conspirators - the ones you always deny you are alleging - cut the power for a few seconds or minutes?  And how do they coordinate this with ongoing events to their advantage?


Whether it was the time period of the JFK Motorcade approaching/passing the TSBD, or during the time period that Baker & Truly were going Up the Back Stairway, Specifically which, "DPD Members took the Front Elevator at The Same Time" ????
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 23, 2018, 07:55:48 PM
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Why would it cause the power to go out?  My guess it that what she means is that because the motorcade was approaching that most people were out on the streets and not making calls.

This doesn't even make any sense.  Do you think that all the people who would make a business call to the Texas School Book Depository would be people in Dallas?

Quote
  We have gone through the elevator nonsense before.  There were DPD members who took the front elevator at the same time and it was operational.  You are also mixing apples and oranges relying on Hine for a power outage at the time of the assassination and then citing an elevator ride that takes places later.  Do you believe the power was out for that entire time and no one else noticed?  And the Hertz sign was operational - so there is no doubt that there was power in the building.  And again why would your fantasy conspirators - the ones you always deny you are alleging - cut the power for a few seconds or minutes?  And how do they coordinate this with ongoing events to their advantage?

The only one who ever invokes these "fantasy conspirators" is you.  I'm pointing out that multiple people reported that there was a power outage, that's all.  You claimed that there is no credible evidence of it.  But when you say "credible" you mean agrees with your subjective opinion.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on February 23, 2018, 08:50:08 PM
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No conspiracy theory ever dies or even fades away.  It just waits around to be revived again and again.  There is no credible evidence of any power cut at the TSBD.  Nor is there is any reasonable explanation for why any conspirator would cut the power or phones for a few seconds.  If the purpose was to keep the police from using the elevator, that would also preclude any assassin from using it to escape the building.  Instead it places both the police and assassin on the stairs.  And how exactly would such an event be coordinated?  It is preposterous.  No reason to reiterate all the prior discussions but it's clear that Hine is referring to the fact that there were no incoming calls at the time the motorcade approached which allowed her to go to the window to take a look.  Her use of the phrase "the lights all went dead" is used in conjunction with the phone which was her responsibility to answer.  She is simply saying there were no incoming calls at that moment which allowed her an opportunity to take a peak at the motorcade.  Photos also confirm the Hertz sign atop the building was functional at 12:30 moments after the assassination.  So there was power on in the building.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay at your desk?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office.

Later in her testimony Hine said that right after hearing the shots - which she said sounded like they came from within the building - she left her office and tried to contact people working in the other offices. She knocked on one office but the person inside was on the phone and couldn't hear her.

Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door.
Mr. BALL. Was the door locked?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That was which company?
Miss HINE. Southwestern Publishing Co.
Mr. BALL. Did you call to her?
Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.

It seems to me that she was simply saying that no calls were being made - either in or out by customers or workers - at the time the motorcade approached not that the power was off. That's why the lights of calls on her phone went dark. So she took that opportunity to go watch the motorcade. But people - or more accurately one person - in the other offices was still using the phone.

Her full testimony is here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hine.htm
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Mytton on February 23, 2018, 09:33:28 PM
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Later in her testimony Hine said that right after hearing the shots - which she said sounded like they came from within the building - she left her office and tried to contact people working in the other offices. She knocked on one office but the person inside was on the phone and couldn't hear her.

Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door.
Mr. BALL. Was the door locked?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That was which company?
Miss HINE. Southwestern Publishing Co.
Mr. BALL. Did you call to her?
Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.

It seems to me that she was simply saying that no calls were being made at the time the motorcade approached not that the power was off. That's why the lights of calls on her phone went dark. But people - or at least one person - in the other offices was still using her phone.



As I was reading though this thread I came to the same conclusion that the people within the building had left their phones and went to the windows and watched the Motorcade but as Iacoletti says, calls would still be coming in from people who would have no idea what was happening at the Depository at that point in time?



JohnM


Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 23, 2018, 10:14:59 PM
I guess the question is, did the lights on Hine's phone indicate incoming calls or just lines in use?  And what lights were the ones that all went out?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Mytton on February 23, 2018, 10:24:58 PM
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I guess the question is, did the lights on Hine's phone indicate incoming calls or just lines in use?  And what lights were the ones that all went out?


By the sounds of it, their telephone system was just a phone.

Mr. BALL. Did you have to change your desk over to another desk?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; to the middle desk on the front row.
Mr. BALL. Was there a switchboard?
Miss HINE. No, sir; we have a telephone with three incoming lines, then we have the warehouse line and we have an intercom system.


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Early_302-based_model_464G_Western_Electric_Key_Telephone_Set.jpg)
Not the actual phone.


Also Miss Hines tells us manning/womanning the phones wasn't her job but she did do the phones in the other building.

Mr. BALL. You were just aware of the fact?
Miss HINE. Yes; I knew it and the girls were discussing it in the office that morning. Many of them, probably six, had not seen the President close. You see, I had seen him on two different occasions and I had been very close to him and so they were lamenting that they couldn't go out so I spoke up and said "I will be glad to answer the telephone so you girls may go out and see the motorcade" and I bad previously answered the telephone when we were in the other building before we moved in this building, so they were delighted and I thought nothing about it.


But she goes on to say that the first building had a switchboard, meaning she may not have no been so familiar with what was going on.

Mr. BALL. You don't have a switchboard?
Miss HINE. Not now; we did in the other building.




JohnM
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 24, 2018, 12:30:57 AM
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Why would a motorcade going by a building cause incoming calls to stop?

Luke Mooney - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator.

Victoria Adams - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.

Let me guess....they were both "mistaken".

Victoria Adams - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.


"I took the stairs to the second floor."   HUH???.... I thought she and Sandra Styles went to the FIRST floor!
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 24, 2018, 12:34:57 AM
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Victoria Adams - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.


"I took the stairs to the second floor."   HUH???.... I thought she and Sandra Styles went to the FIRST floor!

She's talking about later after she re-entered the building.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 24, 2018, 02:48:14 AM
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Why would a motorcade going by a building cause incoming calls to stop?

Luke Mooney - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator.

Victoria Adams - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.

Let me guess....they were both "mistaken".

Mooney likely failed to close the elevator door all the way after "they" got off. Who knows with Adams. She seemed to have been kind of loopy.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Colin Crow on February 24, 2018, 06:40:37 AM
My take is that mention of a brief power cut at some point stimulated imaginations.

Hine - comment regarding lack of phone activity was taken to mean power cut - this was just around time of shooting -no cut

Truly and Baker - a minute or so after - Truly calls for elevators - no response as both most likely have gates open on 5th floor - no power cut - see next

Truly gets to 5th floor and no west elevator - still power at 3-4 minutes

Sawyer - about 4 minutes he goes up passenger elevator at front of TSBD - stays a few minutes and returns down to entrance

Just after this Mooney and Adams likely report same brief event - short loss of power

I think the power may have been cut briefly following the entry of the fire brigade. This is just a proposal as I don?t have that timing in front of me.

No one in their right mind would take the elevators for speed. They were slower than the stairs. The east elevator however did have the advantage of being totally controllable by the operator.

Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 24, 2018, 12:24:31 PM
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My take is that mention of a brief power cut at some point stimulated imaginations.

Hine - comment regarding lack of phone activity was taken to mean power cut - this was just around time of shooting -no cut

Truly and Baker - a minute or so after - Truly calls for elevators - no response as both most likely have gates open on 5th floor - no power cut - see next

Truly gets to 5th floor and no west elevator - still power at 3-4 minutes

Sawyer - about 4 minutes he goes up passenger elevator at front of TSBD - stays a few minutes and returns down to entrance

Just after this Mooney and Adams likely report same brief event - short loss of power

I think the power may have been cut briefly following the entry of the fire brigade. This is just a proposal as I don?t have that timing in front of me.

No one in their right mind would take the elevators for speed. They were slower than the stairs. The east elevator however did have the advantage of being totally controllable by the operator.

I think the power may have been cut briefly following the entry of the fire brigade.

I don't believe the firemen ever entered the building......   I believe the fire department's trucks arrived after 1:00 pm.....
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on February 24, 2018, 04:57:36 PM
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This doesn't even make any sense.  Do you think that all the people who would make a business call to the Texas School Book Depository would be people in Dallas?

The only one who ever invokes these "fantasy conspirators" is you.  I'm pointing out that multiple people reported that there was a power outage, that's all.  You claimed that there is no credible evidence of it.  But when you say "credible" you mean agrees with your subjective opinion.

Whew.  I'm not saying her explanation for no incoming phone calls has to be correct.  It certainly could be but we don't have to resolve why there were no incoming calls.  Pay attention for once.  The point is that she is referring to the "lights" on the phone being out because there are no incoming calls.  Not the power.  Right or wrong she attributes this to the motorcade approaching (people are outside watching the motorcade).  She is explaining why she could step away from the phones (no calls) to look out the window. 

If you believe this alleged power outage has nothing to do with a conspiracy and is just some type of coincidence, then you are at odds with your fellow nuts who clearly are claiming this proves a conspiracy. That is the entire point of the OP.  I was addressing them when you interjected yourself into this discussion.  Who are these multiple witnesses who claim there was a power outage?  Hine is no such witness.  Baker and Truly took the elevator just a couple of minutes after the assassination.  The power is on to the Hertz sign at 12:30.  There are films of the lights on in the TSBD.   The power outage is simply a CTer fantasy. It didn't happen.


Mr. BELIN - All right. After going up the stairways, do you know what numbered floor it was---I will ask you this, did you take the stairway all the way to the top?
 Mr. BAKER - No, sir; we caught that elevator, it seemed like we went up either one or two floors, and Mr. Truly said "Let's take the elevator, here it is."
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on February 24, 2018, 05:20:21 PM
If there were a power outage at the TSBD immediately following the Kill Shot, & Truly and Officer Baker were inside the TSBD 1+ minute following the Kill Shot: (1) they would have been attempting to traverse the stairwell amidst Pitch Black, and (2) confronting Oswald in a Pitch Black Breakroom.  Both the Stairwell and the Breakroom have No Window(s) to provide lighting from the sun outside. 
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on February 24, 2018, 05:32:18 PM
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         If there were a power outage at the TSBD immediately following the Kill Shot, & Truly and Officer Baker were inside the TSBD 1+ minute following the Kill Shot: (1) they would have been attempting to traverse the stairwell amidst Pitch Black, and (2) confronting Oswald in a Pitch Black Breakroom.  Both the Stairwell and the Breakroom have No Window(s) to provide lighting from the sun outside.

Sawyer takes the front elevator up and down just a few minutes after the assassination.  I believe Bugliosi puts his first trip up at 12:36.  That elevator is functioning fine.  Baker and Truly are taking another elevator from the 5th to 7th floor at about the same time.  So there is confirmation that the elevators are working.  The Hertz sign is on at 12:30.  There are various films and photos that show lights on in the building.  No power outage.

 
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on February 24, 2018, 05:43:44 PM
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My take is that mention of a brief power cut at some point stimulated imaginations.

Hine - comment regarding lack of phone activity was taken to mean power cut - this was just around time of shooting -no cut

Truly and Baker - a minute or so after - Truly calls for elevators - no response as both most likely have gates open on 5th floor - no power cut - see next

Truly gets to 5th floor and no west elevator - still power at 3-4 minutes

Sawyer - about 4 minutes he goes up passenger elevator at front of TSBD - stays a few minutes and returns down to entrance

Just after this Mooney and Adams likely report same brief event - short loss of power

I think the power may have been cut briefly following the entry of the fire brigade. This is just a proposal as I don?t have that timing in front of me.

No one in their right mind would take the elevators for speed. They were slower than the stairs. The east elevator however did have the advantage of being totally controllable by the operator.

I agree with most of this.  But why would the fire department cut the power?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on February 24, 2018, 05:55:04 PM
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Sawyer takes the front elevator up and down just a few minutes after the assassination.  I believe Bugliosi puts his first trip up at 12:36.  That elevator is functioning fine.  Baker and Truly are taking another elevator from the 5th to 7th floor at about the same time.  So there is confirmation that the elevators are working.  The Hertz sign is on at 12:30.  There are various films and photos that show lights on in the building.  No power outage.

I have No faith in the Hertz Sign. Photo(s) can be doctored and from that point the Mandella Effect takes over. This has happened repeatedly in this case whether it be an intentional act or Old Guard Researchers endlessly/erroneously repeating hearsay. The Mis ID of assassination eyewitness Mumford being a case on point. If you believe that Truly and Baker were going Up that TSBD stairwell roughly 1+ minute following the Kill Shot, then you would then have to also believe they were doing so in Pitch Black if there were a power outage at the TSBD. I believe that either/both of these individuals would have mentioned having to navigate through the dark while in pursuit of a possible shooter. Officer Baker did have his gun drawn as he and Truly went Up the stairwell. This verifies his apprehension regarding the situation he was actively involved in.   
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on February 24, 2018, 06:11:37 PM
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      I have No faith in the Hertz Sign. Photo(s) can be doctored and from that point the Mandella Effect takes over. This has happened repeatedly in this case whether it be an intentional act or Old Guard Researchers endlessly/erroneously repeating hearsay. The Mis ID of assassination eyewitness Mumford being a case on point. If you believe that Truly and Baker were going Up that TSBD stairwell roughly 1+ minute following the Kill Shot, then you would then have to also believe they were doing so in Pitch Black if there were a power outage at the TSBD. I believe that either/both of these individuals would have mentioned having to navigate through the dark while in pursuit of a possible shooter. Officer Baker did have his gun drawn as he and Truly went Up the stairwell. This verifies his apprehension regarding the situation he was actively involved in.

So you believe the conspirators doctored a photo clearly showing the Hertz sign functional at 12:30?  Is there no limit to their power (no pun intended)?  I can't exactly follow your point on Baker.  Are you claiming he had his gun drawn because it was dark on the stairs due to a power outage and not because he had heard shots fired from within the building and was in pursuit of an active shooter?  Or are you claiming because neither Baker nor Truly mentioned that it was dark that this means the power was on?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on February 24, 2018, 07:57:33 PM
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So you believe the conspirators doctored a photo clearly showing the Hertz sign functional at 12:30?  Is there no limit to their power (no pun intended)?  I can't exactly follow your point on Baker.  Are you claiming he had his gun drawn because it was dark on the stairs due to a power outage and not because he had heard shots fired from within the building and was in pursuit of an active shooter?  Or are you claiming because neither Baker nor Truly mentioned that it was dark that this means the power was on?

Point is, if the power had been out and Officer Baker knew he was chasing a killer/shooter, (which he did because he had his gun out), there is No Way he enters into and attempts to navigate his way through a Pitch Black stairwell he has Never been inside previously.
Yeah, either/both would have mentioned this alleged Black Out situation when they told the WC their story.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on February 24, 2018, 08:08:04 PM
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Because armed Policemen are afraid of the dark?

There is a difference between Dark and Pitch Black. Plus, Officer Baker is completely unfamiliar with the building/stairwell. Cops are smart. Nobody wins if you place yourself in a situation like that. You or a completely innocent person, (Styles/Adams), could get shot.  Do Not use the Pitch Black Stairwells until flashlights/temp lighting of some kind is supplied.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 25, 2018, 01:10:53 PM
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So you believe the conspirators doctored a photo clearly showing the Hertz sign functional at 12:30?  Is there no limit to their power (no pun intended)?  I can't exactly follow your point on Baker.  Are you claiming he had his gun drawn because it was dark on the stairs due to a power outage and not because he had heard shots fired from within the building and was in pursuit of an active shooter?  Or are you claiming because neither Baker nor Truly mentioned that it was dark that this means the power was on?

So you believe the conspirators doctored a photo clearly showing the Hertz sign functional at 12:30?


Duh!....The Hertz sign WAS running on time because it did NOT run on AC.....    The sign was operated from a battery bank that was kept charged by a battery charger that as operated by the AC.

If the clock had been operating on AC it would have been susceptible to power failures and would require frequent adjustments due to  frequency drift.     The DC power supplied by the battery bank was a constant steady supply of  unwavering power.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on February 25, 2018, 02:48:00 PM
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Point is, if the power had been out and Officer Baker knew he was chasing a killer/shooter, (which he did because he had his gun out), there is No Way he enters into and attempts to navigate his way through a Pitch Black stairwell he has Never been inside previously.
Yeah, either/both would have mentioned this alleged Black Out situation when they told the WC their story.

So you are saying the power was not out since we know Baker and Truly did go up the stairs?  I think they would have gone up anyway, but we are in agreement that the power was not out which is the point under consideration here.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on February 25, 2018, 03:49:19 PM
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So you are saying the power was not out since we know Baker and Truly did go up the stairs?  I think they would have gone up anyway, but we are in agreement that the power was not out which is the point under consideration here.

Yeah. I believe the power was On because: (1) Baker and Truly made No Mention of having to navigate a Pitch Black stairway in their WC Testimony, (2) Officer Baker would Not have entered a Pitch Black Stairway he had Never used before, & (3) Truly was ahead of Baker leading him Up the stairwell. How would Baker have been able to See/Follow Truly in a Pitch Black Stairwell? 
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Michael O'Brian on February 25, 2018, 04:41:13 PM
Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you get on?
Mr. MOONEY - It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building.
Mr. BALL - There are two elevators there?
Mr. MOONEY - I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time.
Mr. BALL - You took the west one, or the east one?
Mr. MOONEY - I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.
Mr. BALL - Did it work with a push button?
Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.
Mr. BALL - You were alone?
Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time.
Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.
Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on February 25, 2018, 05:17:56 PM
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Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you get on?
Mr. MOONEY - It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building.
Mr. BALL - There are two elevators there?
Mr. MOONEY - I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time.
Mr. BALL - You took the west one, or the east one?
Mr. MOONEY - I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.
Mr. BALL - Did it work with a push button?
Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.
Mr. BALL - You were alone?
Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time.
Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.
Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor?

Time stamping what you have supplied above would be beneficial. The discussion previously was centered around the Geneva Hine WC Testimony. In that testimony she was referring to a time period when the JFK Limo approached the TSBD and passed by. Baker and Truly going Up the stairwell was roughly 1 minute following the Kill Shot. What you have proffered above occurred at some point several minutes after Hine's recollections, as well as the Baker/Truly Up-The-Stairwell Escapade.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Anthony Clayden on February 25, 2018, 09:28:49 PM
As to Hine's comment about the phones going dead, it is possible that she said it as part of her excuse\reason for leaving her desk to look at the parade. Doesn't even have to be a lie as such, someone wanting to do something (look at the parade) can convince themselves\justify their actions, the lines may have gone quiet for a few seconds and she in her own mind reasoned they had all gone quiet, so she could leave her desk.

Mooney's testimony is far more challenging, it would appear to effecting the lifts only, and for a short period of time, as they were operated by quite a few others.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Michael O'Brian on February 26, 2018, 12:34:14 AM
An informative article about this very important issue.
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/LIGHTS%20OUT.htm
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on February 26, 2018, 01:26:12 AM
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Equipment like lifts would have their own circuit breakers. No problem cutting out just the lifts. I would assume motors in top of lift shafts so breakers (and fuses) could be on 7th floor (the pipes in the SE corner routed power to the upper floors as I recall).

No one else indicated any problem with the elevators that day.  And there are specific examples of folks like Baker and Truly taking the freight elevator from the 5th to the 7th floor and Sawyer taking the front elevator without issue a few minutes after the assassination.  There is no problem cutting the power to the lifts?  Well, you would have to have someone do it.  Presumably from within the building.  That adds another person to the conspiracy in the TSBD.  A pretty big risk. They would have to somehow know when to do it.  How do they coordinate that?  And lastly - why bother cutting the power at all for a few minutes or seconds?  The purpose is unclear.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Mytton on February 26, 2018, 09:27:01 AM
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BTW, my comment was purely technical, but can you name a TSBD witness who said they experienced an intermittent problem with the freight elevators on other occasions?



The elevators had certain quirks if you weren't familiar.
Truly knew both elevators were up on the the fifth floor but couldn't use either because each elevator had a strict procedure before they would operate.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you got to the elevator, and what did you do then?
Mr. TRULY. I looked up. This is two elevators in the same well. This elevator over here
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the west one?
Mr. TRULY. I am pointing to the west one. This elevator was on the fifth floor. Also, the east elevator-- as far as I can tell--both of them were on the fifth floor at that time.
This elevator will come down if the gates are down, and you push a button.
Representative FORD. Which elevator is that?
Mr. TRULY. The west one. But the east one will not come down unless you get on it and bring it down. You cannot call it if the gates are down.




JohnM
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Mytton on February 26, 2018, 09:59:07 AM
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I was. That was by design. Thanks anyway.



Good for you. Yes they were designed differently. No problems.



JohnM

Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on February 26, 2018, 03:33:58 PM
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...and Sawyer taking the front elevator without issue a few minutes after the assassination.

Different shaft; would work independently of freight elevators.

That adds another person to the conspiracy in the TSBD.  A pretty big risk

Not if he's already in.

The purpose is unclear

Think a little harder.

BTW, my comment was purely technical, but can you name a TSBD witness who said they experienced an intermittent problem with the freight elevators on other occasions?

Why do you ignore that Baker and Truly took the freight elevator by addressing the fact that Sawyer took the front elevator?  Sawyer's trip up and back down the front elevator is just another example that the power was on in the building.  Baker and Truly's trip demonstrates the same along with the fact that the freight elevator was working fine.  What is your time frame for when the freight elevator was not operational?  And why be coy and ask me for an explanation for why the power would be cut off to that elevator?  This is not my theory.  It sounds complicated and risky without any obvious benefit.  If you have some insight, let us know.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on February 26, 2018, 05:14:22 PM
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...and Sawyer taking the front elevator without issue a few minutes after the assassination.

Different shaft; would work independently of freight elevators.

That adds another person to the conspiracy in the TSBD.  A pretty big risk

Not if he's already in.

The purpose is unclear

Think a little harder.

BTW, my comment was purely technical, but can you name a TSBD witness who said they experienced an intermittent problem with the freight elevators on other occasions?

By the time the front elevator was used, Oswald had probably already departed the TSBD. This Front Elevator time frame was also several minutes after the Hine testimony/time frame. If Hine is talking about a power outage as the JFK Limo approaches the TSBD/Passes by, this would be an important issue. A possible power outage at the TSBD several minutes After the assassination serves No Purpose.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on February 26, 2018, 06:14:50 PM
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Why do you ignore that Baker and Truly took the freight elevator by addressing the fact that Sawyer took the front elevator?

I don't. You introduced Sawyer.

Sawyer's trip up and back down the front elevator is just another example that the power was on in the building.

Showing you (surprise) entirely missed my point, being, there would have been separate breakers for each elevator.

Baker and Truly's trip demonstrates the same along with the fact that the freight elevator was working fine.

But...

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. [...]

What is your time frame for when the freight elevator was not operational?

Refer to MOONEY quote above, then expand if possible.

And why be coy and ask me for an explanation for why the power would be cut off to that elevator?

Oh...you understand it might be to trap someone escaping on the upper floors or, worse, inside the elevator.

This is not my theory.

Fine. Neither is it mine.

It sounds complicated and risky without any obvious benefit.  If you have some insight, let us know.

The benefit is obvious as I've explained, trapping the patsy, but complicated to get right I agree.

Again, my initial post was purely technical simply to illustrate that it should have been possible to cut out the elevators individually. There was no need to cut power to the whole building as indicated by other poster(s).

So your theory is that Oswald was supposed to be trapped in the elevator coming down?  And the conspirators turned off the power to an elevator going up for some reason even though Oswald wasn't in the elevator?  In fact, they do this with a police officer in the elevator?  LOL.  And some conspirator hung around in the building after the assassination while the DPD was there turning the power off and on to the elevator?  Then managed to escape unnoticed.  That was quite a plan. Who was supposed to explain why the patsy was trapped in the elevator because its power had been turned off had this plan worked?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on February 26, 2018, 07:39:13 PM
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Your half brain running rampant again?

Who was supposed to explain why the patsy was trapped in the elevator because its power had been turned off had this plan worked?


Was MOONEY required to explain why the power was undoubtedly cut off (and came back)?

LOL.  Your theory is that OSWALD (i.e. the assassin) would be captured because he was trapped in the elevator.  Don't you think someone might be interested in how the presidential assassin was caught and why his elevator was not functioning?  And understand how this is different from Mooney who no one would care about?  Whew.  I thought some others here were not too bright but this one is a keeper.  I noticed you ignored everything else like why they cut the power to an elevator going up when they were trying to trap someone coming down in your fantasy but I can understand why you ran from that. 
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Michael O'Brian on February 26, 2018, 07:56:22 PM
The Hertz clock does not appear to be on in the Bronson clip.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 26, 2018, 08:04:18 PM
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Or was ill-timed.

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Who were those deputy sheriffs?

Who were those deputy sheriffs?

Ya mean the ones that were dressed in light colored khaki?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 26, 2018, 10:55:51 PM
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The point is that she is referring to the "lights" on the phone being out because there are no incoming calls.  Not the power.

You don't know what she's referring to -- you're making an assumption.  All she said was "the lights all went out".

Quote
If you believe this alleged power outage has nothing to do with a conspiracy and is just some type of coincidence, then you are at odds with your fellow nuts who clearly are claiming this proves a conspiracy.   That is the entire point of the OP.

No, that's another Richard Smith strawman.  The OP just asked if there was a power cut or not.  You're the one injecting yourself into the conversation with your usual irrelevant rants about fantasy conspirators.

Quote
Baker and Truly took the elevator just a couple of minutes after the assassination.  The power is on to the Hertz sign at 12:30.  There are films of the lights on in the TSBD.   The power outage is simply a CTer fantasy. It didn't happen.

So your contention is that a power cut had to effect the entire building and to have happened prior to 12:30 for it to have happened at all?  Have you heard of these things called electrical circuits?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 26, 2018, 10:59:40 PM
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If you believe that Truly and Baker were going Up that TSBD stairwell roughly 1+ minute following the Kill Shot, then you would then have to also believe they were doing so in Pitch Black if there were a power outage at the TSBD.

What gives you the idea that the stairwells had electrical lighting in the first place or that they would be pitch black and not illuminated by the ambient light from the different floors?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 26, 2018, 11:05:06 PM
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If the clock had been operating on AC it would have been susceptible to power failures and would require frequent adjustments due to  frequency drift.     The DC power supplied by the battery bank was a constant steady supply of  unwavering power.

Richard doesn't know how the Hertz clock was powered.  He just makes this crap up as he goes along.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 26, 2018, 11:07:09 PM
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LOL.  Your theory is that OSWALD (i.e. the assassin) would be captured because he was trapped in the elevator.

Tom didn't say that was his theory.  You just made up another Richard Smith strawman.  How unusual...
 ::)
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Mytton on February 26, 2018, 11:18:37 PM
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What gives you the idea that the stairwells had electrical lighting in the first place or that they would be pitch black and not illuminated by the ambient light from the different floors?




The stairwells were completely enclosed and most appeared to have doors top and bottom, and you reckon that they relied on illumination from the different floors, how absurd! LOLOLOL!

Even though this film was made in the same building a decade later the lighting on display is what you'd expect.

(https://s17.postimg.org/gpz9532dr/litstairs.gif)



JohnM





Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 26, 2018, 11:48:37 PM
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The stairwells were completely enclosed and most appeared to have doors top and bottom, and you reckon that they relied on illumination from the different floors, how absurd! LOLOLOL!

Have you ever seen any photos or film showing any of those doors closed?

Quote
Even though this film was made in the same building a decade later the lighting on display is what you'd expect.

So that film is irrelevant then, right?  Was that even taken in the real TSBD?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on February 27, 2018, 12:54:52 AM
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What gives you the idea that the stairwells had electrical lighting in the first place or that they would be pitch black and not illuminated by the ambient light from the different floors?

    (1) Look at the SS re-creation of Oswald's journey from the SN down to the 2nd Floor lunchroom. Or, (2) the Photo of Styles/Adams on the stairwell. Those stairwells are not constructed in a manner that permits "ambient light".
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Mytton on February 27, 2018, 01:18:53 AM
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Have you ever seen any photos or film showing any of those doors closed?




Yes.

Photo
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/f/f5/Photo_wcd81-1_0143.jpg)
Film
(https://s17.postimg.org/96662mgsf/litstairsf.gif)



JohnM
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Mytton on February 27, 2018, 01:45:41 AM
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Was that even taken in the real TSBD?



They look mighty similar.

(https://s17.postimg.org/kjspe1win/ground_floor_dep.gif)

(https://s17.postimg.org/ra96nhbyn/ground_floor_1_dep.gif)

(https://s17.postimg.org/8ecov1otr/ground_floor_1_dep_b.gif)

(https://s17.postimg.org/i069b6fxr/ground_floor_1_dep_c.gif)



JohnM
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on February 27, 2018, 05:22:42 AM
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Have you ever seen any photos or film showing any of those doors closed?

So that film is irrelevant then, right?  Was that even taken in the real TSBD?

     Do some research on the stairwells inside the TSBD & then let this Forum know where you stand. You currently are literally flying Blind.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on February 27, 2018, 01:14:51 PM
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Richard doesn't know how the Hertz clock was powered.  He just makes this crap up as he goes along.

I can't say with certainty but this passage from A&C appears to indicate the sign was electronic rather than battery powered and was turned off to save energy (again suggesting that is was powered with electricity).  But rather than just being your usual contrarian a-hole self, why don't you contribute something of substance to the discussion if you know differently?

"The Hertz Corporation expressed no interest in its abandoned advertisement, having permanently turned off its electronic time and temperature function on December 11, 1973, during the United States energy crisis."

Assassination and Commemoration - Stephen Fagin - p.70
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on February 27, 2018, 01:23:51 PM
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I noticed you can't handle more than one issue at a time -- I did you a favor. Baby steps now:

Don't you think someone might be interested in how the presidential assassin was caught and why his elevator was not functioning?

No, he was slowed down and confronted. The power was back on.

What else did you not understand?

Great plan.  It necessitated trapping someone on an elevator without any guarantee this person would be on the elevator.  And an elevator with no doors but only a rickety gate that could be opened or climbed over.  And the person down at the bottom of the TSBD controlling the power would have no possible way to know when exactly this person was on elevator.  And he would be doing this while DPD officer are entering the building. But he turns off the power anyway several minutes after the assassination for unknown reason stopping an elevator going up with a police officer in it instead of stopping one coming down.  Yes, that is crystal clear.  You have to be a way out fringe loon to entertain this as a plan.  Particularly given all the evidence that the power was on including power to the freight elevators since Baker and Truly use one to get to the top floor.  Something you repeatedly ignore.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 27, 2018, 04:22:49 PM
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Absolutely, but that's not what you said: "Easier to avoid people.." ;-)

It was, wasn't it: Nobody saw him on the stairs  ;-)



Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 27, 2018, 04:43:08 PM
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Absolutely, or on the sixth floor ;-)

Except at the window ;-)
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 27, 2018, 04:47:05 PM
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Oh....who did?

History  ;-)
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 27, 2018, 05:22:42 PM
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     Do some research on the stairwells inside the TSBD & then let this Forum know where you stand. You currently are literally flying Blind.

Says the guy who still can't figure out how to post a photo.

You're the one who made the claim that the stairwells would be "pitch black" if there was a power cut.  You do the research.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 27, 2018, 05:26:45 PM
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I can't say with certainty but this passage from A&C appears to indicate the sign was electronic rather than battery powered and was turned off to save energy (again suggesting that is was powered with electricity).  But rather than just being your usual contrarian a-hole self, why don't you contribute something of substance to the discussion if you know differently?

I'm not the one who thinks namecalling constitutes a rebuttal to anything -- that would be you.  You're the one making an argument completely based on an assumption about the Hertz clock that you have no evidence for.  Which is pretty much the case for all of your assumptions about this case.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 27, 2018, 05:30:28 PM
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Absolutely, or on the sixth floor ;-)

Except at the window ;-)

Right.  With a bald spot and a belt around his neck. ;-)
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on February 27, 2018, 05:38:24 PM
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Says the guy who still can't figure out how to post a photo.

You're the one who made the claim that the stairwells would be "pitch black" if there was a power cut.  You do the research.


     I have. You're guy the guy stumbling around in the dark with completely unfounded Opinions. Just how many simultaneous threads do You intend to get your head handed to you?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 27, 2018, 06:00:39 PM
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     I have. You're guy the guy stumbling around in the dark with completely unfounded Opinions. Just how many simultaneous threads do You intend to get your head handed to you?

That's a hoot coming from the guy who invented fake Hesters and turned a Elm street lane into a sidewalk.  Do you have evidence that the stairwells would be pitch black without electricity or do you not?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on February 27, 2018, 06:14:13 PM
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I'm not the one who thinks namecalling constitutes a rebuttal to anything -- that would be you.  You're the one making an argument completely based on an assumption about the Hertz clock that you have no evidence for.  Which is pretty much the case for all of your assumptions about this case.

What assumptions are those?  Fact: There are photos of the Hertz sign that show it had power at 12:30.  Fact: Assassination and Commemoration indicates the sign was "electronic" and turned off in 1973 to conserve power.  You on the other hand have added absolutely nothing of substance to this discussion as usual.  Just playing the typical lazy contrarian.  If you have something of relevance regarding the Hertz sign, then please post it. 
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 27, 2018, 06:20:43 PM
Doesn't appear to be illuminated or pitch black in the Secret Service reconstruction film.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/stairway-dark.png)
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 27, 2018, 06:31:49 PM
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What assumptions are those?  Fact: There are photos of the Hertz sign that show it had power at 12:30.  Fact: Assassination and Commemoration indicates the sign was "electronic" and turned off in 1973 to conserve power.

You're making several unfounded assumptions:

- That the Hertz sign was powered by electricity and not batteries (perhaps misunderstanding what "electronic" means)
- If powered by electricity that the Hertz sign power was metered to the TSBD building
- If powered by electricity and metered to the TSBD building that the Hertz sign was on the same electrical circuit as one or more of the elevators

In fact, your observation that the Hertz clock display was illuminated at 12:30 tells you exactly nothing about whether there was a power outage to the elevators when Mooney and Adams both observed them.

My contribution to this discussion is exposing once again how you use unfounded assumptions and insults to make your case.  Every single time.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Michael O'Brian on February 27, 2018, 07:21:20 PM
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What assumptions are those?  Fact: There are photos of the Hertz sign that show it had power at 12:30.  Fact: Assassination and Commemoration indicates the sign was "electronic" and turned off in 1973 to conserve power.  You on the other hand have added absolutely nothing of substance to this discussion as usual.  Just playing the typical lazy contrarian.  If you have something of relevance regarding the Hertz sign, then please post it.

Once again no lights on the clock in this Bronson clip.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Michael O'Brian on February 27, 2018, 07:29:41 PM
Correction according to this commentator that image of the clock was a post assasination clip.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on February 27, 2018, 07:52:01 PM
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That's a hoot coming from the guy who invented fake Hesters and turned a Elm street lane into a sidewalk.  Do you have evidence that the stairwells would be pitch black without electricity or do you not?

         Do some actual research and stop embarrassing yourself. Even Mytton is now cleaning your clock.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on February 27, 2018, 07:57:15 PM
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Doesn't appear to be illuminated or pitch black in the Secret Service reconstruction film.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/stairway-dark.png)

                     

      (1) You do Not think they used Lighting for their filming of this re-creation? (2) On top of that, this "Production" needed at least 3 Takes. Do some research before popping off.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 27, 2018, 09:28:16 PM
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      (1) You do Not think they used Lighting for their filming of this re-creation? (2) On top of that, this "Production" needed at least 3 Takes. Do some research before popping off.

Who's the one popping off?  You can't even bluff your way through an argument.  Put up or shut up, Royell.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Mytton on February 27, 2018, 09:42:05 PM
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Doesn't appear to be illuminated or pitch black in the Secret Service reconstruction film.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/stairway-dark.png)



In the Secret Service reconstruction film the lighting in the stairwell seems to alternate between pitch black and being illuminated perhaps they found the switch for your ambient lighting?

(https://s17.postimg.org/9z1bf0bq7/6thfloorstairlight.gif)



JohnM
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 27, 2018, 09:46:50 PM
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In the Secret Service reconstruction film the lighting in the stairwell seems to alternate between pitch black and being illuminated perhaps they found the switch for your ambient lighting?

While we're on the subject of switches, where were the switches for these alleged stairwell lights located?  Also, why doesn't the Secret Service man seem to be as concerned about traversing the "pitch black" stairway as Royell insists Baker and Truly would have been?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Mytton on February 27, 2018, 10:01:14 PM
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While we're on the subject of switches, where were the switches for these alleged stairwell lights located?




You can't always rely on an elevator as Truly and Baker discovered on the 22nd so when the staff in the building are going home when it's dark and the elevators are not accessible how do they traverse the stairs or was everybody expected to be out of the building before sundown?



JohnM


Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 27, 2018, 10:20:08 PM
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You can't always rely on an elevator as Truly and Baker discovered on the 22nd so when the staff in the building are going home when it's dark and the elevators are not accessible how do they traverse the stairs or was everybody expected to be out of the building before sundown?

Not sure I'm following you.  Are you assuming that "ambient light" means sunlight?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Mytton on February 27, 2018, 10:25:29 PM
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Not sure I'm following you.  Are you assuming that "ambient light" means sunlight?




Ok you are working on a high floor and you finish up and it's dark outside, you turn off the lights on your floor and then what, you stumble down the stairs?
And on top of that you need to rely on everyone on the floors below to equally leave on their lights and just pray that nobody closed one of the stairwell doors which as I've shown in film and photo can be closed.



JohnM
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 27, 2018, 10:56:20 PM
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Ok you are working on a high floor and you finish up and it's dark outside, you turn off the lights on your floor and then what, you stumble down the stairs?
And on top of that you need to rely on everyone on the floors below to equally leave on their lights and just pray that nobody closed one of the stairwell doors which as I've shown in film and photo can be closed.

Gotcha.  Those are reasonable questions.  I don't know enough about the TSBD building work schedules (or even how the lighting on the various floors was controlled) to know if this would be an issue or not.  That doesn't have a whole lot to do with the issue of whether Baker and Truly would have had a problem seeing where they were going in the stairway during the day if the power had been out during that time.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Mytton on February 27, 2018, 11:58:09 PM
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Gotcha.  Those are reasonable questions.  I don't know enough about the TSBD building work schedules (or even how the lighting on the various floors was controlled) to know if this would be an issue or not.  That doesn't have a whole lot to do with the issue of whether Baker and Truly would have had a problem seeing where they were going in the stairway during the day if the power had been out during that time.




The  warehouse staff worked till at least 4:45 and in winter on a dark overcast day I wouldn't want to be relying on any outside lighting.

Mr. BELIN. What were his hours of work to be?
Mr. TRULY. His hours were from 8 in the morning until 4:45 in the afternoon. His lunch period was from 12 to 12:45.


As for the light switch I don't know what this controlled but it appears to be a light switch and its location is close to where you enter this floor.

(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/b/bc/Photo_wcd87_0019.jpg)

As for the stairwells being fully enclosed, I don't think they are.

In this clip from Ruby & Oswald which was filmed in the actual TSBD it suddenly dawned on me that there is no door leading up to the 2nd floor, and blah blah blah I know it's a decade later and according to you probably irrelevant, but nonetheless let's see where this goes.

(https://s17.postimg.org/gpz9532dr/litstairs.gif)

The 6th floor stairwell leading down appears to have no door.

(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/6/6a/Photo_wcd81-1_0127.jpg)

From these angles photographed not long after we see the 2nd floor stairwell going down also appears to have no door and what is also visible is a different type of light fixture that presumably lights up the sign and the stairs leading down to the first landing.

(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/7/79/Photo_wcd81-1_0147.jpg)

(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/f/f5/Photo_wcd81-1_0143.jpg)



JohnM





Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 28, 2018, 12:13:31 AM
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The  warehouse staff worked till at least 4:45 and in winter on a dark overcast day I wouldn't want to be relying on any outside lighting.

Don't know about Australia, but in Texas it doesn't get dark in the winter by 4:45 PM.

Quote
As for the light switch I don't know what this controlled but it appears to be a light switch and its location is close to where you enter this floor.

Could be, but it could also control the overhead lights on the floor.

Quote
As for the stairwells being fully enclosed, I don't think they are.

I agree.

Quote
In this clip from Ruby & Oswald which was filmed in the actual TSBD

Not that I don't believe you, but do you have a source for Ruby & Oswald being filmed in the actual TSBD?

Quote
From these angles photographed not long after we see the 2nd floor stairwell going down also appears to have no door and what is also visible is a different type of light fixture that presumably lights up the sign and the stairs leading down to the first landing.

(https://emojipedia-us.s3.amazonaws.com/thumbs/120/emoji-one/104/thumbs-up-sign_1f44d.png)

That makes sense.  Lights on the floors near the stairways illuminating the stairways.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Mytton on February 28, 2018, 01:44:25 AM
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Don't know about Australia, but in Texas it doesn't get dark in the winter by 4:45 PM.

Could be, but it could also control the overhead lights on the floor.

I agree.

Not that I don't believe you, but do you have a source for Ruby & Oswald being filmed in the actual TSBD?

(https://emojipedia-us.s3.amazonaws.com/thumbs/120/emoji-one/104/thumbs-up-sign_1f44d.png)

That makes sense.  Lights on the floors near the stairways illuminating the stairways.



Quote
Don't know about Australia, but in Texas it doesn't get dark in the winter by 4:45 PM.

I didn't mean "a dark overcast day" to mean night, the sun doesn't go down at 4:45 in Australia either but at that time in the winter on a cloudy overcast day it's get dark. I just had a quick check and on the earliest sunset time you are about half an hour behind which under those conditions described above is insignificant.

Quote
Could be, but it could also control the overhead lights on the floor.

That's what I meant. But thinking about it, at night when you switch off this light then what do you do, there must be some sort of soft lighting at the elevator or stairs?

Quote
Not that I don't believe you, but do you have a source for Ruby & Oswald being filmed in the actual TSBD?

The only source for filming location I could find was on IMBD "Filming Locations: Dallas, Texas, USA"
Btw did you see my comparisons a page or two back that is pretty definitive, finding locations with that level of accuracy very rarely if ever happens. Other locations like the Texas theater and the Paines and Fraziers houses are very obviously different but the Depository and the Rooming house are filmed on location.

Anyway here's some more frameshots of the back of the building and the 6th floor.

(https://s17.postimg.org/8rrz11b4v/ruby_and_oswald_back_tsbd.jpg)

(https://s17.postimg.org/lj657jd73/ruby_and_oswald_back_tsbda.jpg)

And this gif should put any guessing to bed, through the sniper's nest window in the TVmovie we see the same 3 buildings beyond that actually exist there.

(https://s17.postimg.org/8t1wueuy7/out_depository_window.gif)

Quote
That makes sense.  Lights on the floors near the stairways illuminating the stairways.

Yes, but I still reckon that they needed a light halfway down the stairs to illuminate the bottom section that leads to a possible closed door.



JohnM
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on February 28, 2018, 05:53:20 PM
OSHA did Not come into being until 1970.  Just look at the interior photos of the TSBD. That place is a fire trap on top of being a rat trap. Right across Elm St you also have the Dal Tex Bld = Zapruder's Sweat Shop. Lighting in the stairwells was obviously Not a major concern if a concern at all. Welcome to The South/1963.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on February 28, 2018, 08:54:11 PM
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You're making several unfounded assumptions:

- That the Hertz sign was powered by electricity and not batteries (perhaps misunderstanding what "electronic" means)
- If powered by electricity that the Hertz sign power was metered to the TSBD building
- If powered by electricity and metered to the TSBD building that the Hertz sign was on the same electrical circuit as one or more of the elevators

In fact, your observation that the Hertz clock display was illuminated at 12:30 tells you exactly nothing about whether there was a power outage to the elevators when Mooney and Adams both observed them.

My contribution to this discussion is exposing once again how you use unfounded assumptions and insults to make your case.  Every single time.

What a basket load of gibberish.  You provide no evidence whatsoever on the topic.  And just take the usual contrarian position demanding impossible standards of proof from others.  You are suggesting we would need to verify the sign atop the TSBD was "metered" to the TSBD?  That doesn't even make any sense.  And why would anyone need to connect the sign to the elevator? We know that Baker and Truly took the freight elevator with no problem.  We aren't just discussing the elevators.  What the functional sign could show is that the power was not off in the building as some CTers have falsely interpreted the Hine testimony.  They suggest the lights were out (i.e. the power).  The facts are that the clock was functional as of 12:30.  The "electronic" sign was turned off in 1973 to conserve power.  Would you turn off a battery powered sign to conserve electricity?  I'm not saying it is conclusive but you have contributed absolutely nothing but lazy contrarian objections.  If you have proof of the power source, then share it.  If Gary Mack were still around, I would be glad to ask him since the 6th floor museum still has the sign, but that train has left the station.  Forget the sign and there are still numerous examples of the power and elevators being operational in this time frame. 
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 28, 2018, 10:24:16 PM
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What a basket load of gibberish.  You provide no evidence whatsoever on the topic.  And just take the usual contrarian position demanding impossible standards of proof from others.  You are suggesting we would need to verify the sign atop the TSBD was "metered" to the TSBD?  That doesn't even make any sense.  And why would anyone need to connect the sign to the elevator?

You're the one making the silly argument that the Hertz clock being illuminated at 12:30 somehow shows that Mooney and Adams were both wrong about there being no power to the elevators when they tried them.  Deal with it.

Quote
What the functional sign could show is that the power was not off in the building as some CTers have falsely interpreted the Hine testimony.

You don't get to call something "false" just because you think something else could have happened.  Condescending arrogance isn't proof of anything.  Stop presenting your speculations as facts and I'll stop pointing it out.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Tom Scully on March 01, 2018, 02:08:22 AM
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What a basket load of gibberish.  You provide no evidence whatsoever on the topic.  And just take the usual contrarian position demanding impossible standards of proof from others.  You are suggesting we would need to verify the sign atop the TSBD was "metered" to the TSBD?  That doesn't even make any sense.  And why would anyone need to connect the sign to the elevator? We know that Baker and Truly took the freight elevator with no problem.  We aren't just discussing the elevators.  What the functional sign could show is that the power was not off in the building as some CTers have falsely interpreted the Hine testimony.  They suggest the lights were out (i.e. the power).  The facts are that the clock was functional as of 12:30.  The "electronic" sign was turned off in 1973 to conserve power.  Would you turn off a battery powered sign to conserve electricity?  I'm not saying it is conclusive but you have contributed absolutely nothing but lazy contrarian objections.  If you have proof of the power source, then share it.  If Gary Mack were still around, I would be glad to ask him since the 6th floor museum still has the sign, but that train has left the station.  Forget the sign and there are still numerous examples of the power and elevators being operational in this time frame.

The Hertz sign was 100 feet wide and contained 600 porcelain light bulb sockets. The cost of removal was quoted in mid 1978
as $26,000.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HertzSignRemovalCost0578.jpg)

Hertz sign removal, May, 1979:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HertzSignOff0579.png)

The time and temperature display consisted of a larger version of the basketball scoreboard common at that time and later in newer elementary and high school gyms. Since it was an outdoor display it required even brighter light bulbs than were common in scoreboards of baseball and football fields of that time. Numerical display of time and temperature is a more reliable description than digital since it was an analog display consuming considerable electric power.

From 1953, the infrastructure was in place on the TSBD roof for a devoted high voltage power line on its own independent circuit and utility meter.:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HertzSignPreDatedbyFordc.jpg)

A back up battery seems an impractical and very costly enhancement. If the 600 bulbs averaged only 100 watts each,
60,000 watts plus the power requirement to keep time and sense temperature and translate both to the sign's circuitry
would increase that power load. 15 amps equal 1800 watts. 60,000/1800= 33.3 x 15 amps = 499.5 amps = 60,000 watts.
The minimum circuit to power the sign would be fused and designed for a 600 amp load, common amperage in
3 phase commercial service from the local utility. The light from those bulbs had to outshine the sun and
be visible from seven stories height. A photo sensor or timer may have signaled a rheostat to dim the sign lights
between sunset and dawn.

Your stove or clothes dryer are fed by a devoted 30 amp circuit. Try assembling and powering either from a battery pack. A battery source supplies DC current and requires an inverter to convert 12, 24, or 48 volts DC current to provide the 500 volt AC current that supplied the Hertz sign. This is a possibility but prohibitively expensive. IOW, there might be a one percent
chance the sign was equipped with battery back up or even a back up AC generator. A back up generator designed to
power a small hospital would have been required and also a secure place to locate it and a fuel supply. Fuel and the
generator would require monitoring and maintenance. A portable home generator supplies 3000 to 7500 watts, peak,
and 240 volts output is common. 600 volts requires a large commercial generator.

It is reasonable to believe the Hertz sign was metered independently of the TSBD and if someone manually switched off
some circuits powering areas of the TSBD, that the Hertz sign would have shined on. I read no persuasive argument that
power was interrupted inside the TSBD that afternoon, only much confused interpretation.

From DMN, January 4, 1982:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HertzSignDescription010482.jpg)
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on March 01, 2018, 02:27:45 PM
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You're the one making the silly argument that the Hertz clock being illuminated at 12:30 somehow shows that Mooney and Adams were both wrong about there being no power to the elevators when they tried them.  Deal with it.

You don't get to call something "false" just because you think something else could have happened.  Condescending arrogance isn't proof of anything.  Stop presenting your speculations as facts and I'll stop pointing it out.

I'll try again.  Some CTers - perhaps not yourself although it is difficult to follow since being a contrarian you won't take any position - contend that the power was off in the building based on the testimony of Hine.  Not just the elevators.  Repeat not just the elevators.  Follow along with your finger if that helps your reading comprehension.  So if the Hertz sign is on the same power source then it demonstrates that the power did not go off at 12:30 when CTers interpret Hine to make this claim because we can clearly see it is functional at that moment.  This has nothing to do with the elevators except they would not be operational if the power was off to the entire building.   Got that?  The power outage under discussion is broader than just the elevators.  There can be examples that go to the power outage and examples that go more specifically to just the elevators. You keep interjecting yourself in this discussion and trying to limit it to the elevators when that is not the case for many of your fellow CTers.

Now moving on to your narrower issue, if the power was on in the building but someone was turning off the power only to the elevators for some unknown purpose.  We know - despite the fact that you keep ignoring it - that Baker and Truly took the freight elevator to the top floor.  This demonstrates the freight elevator was functional a few minutes after the assassination.  When Mooney arrives a freight elevator is back on the ground floor meaning one had to come back down.  So there is a second example of the freight elevator being functional.  And then Mooney takes the elevator to second floor.  A third example of that elevator being functional.   

Tom relies upon Mooney as evidence of the power being turned off to the elevator.  Suggesting this was perhaps done to trap or delay the escape of the patsy from the upper floor (presumably Oswald).  But we know a couple of things that makes that argument absurd.  First, Mooney was in an elevator heading UP.  The patsy they are trying to trap would have been in an elevator going DOWN.  Oswald is also already gone by that point.  He is not even in the building.  This takes places many minutes after the assassination.  And is Mooney trapped or delayed by this power outage to his elevator which is the alleged purpose of turning the power off on Oswald?  No, the freight elevator has no door.  He just steps off and continues on his way.  What a plan! To trap the patsy in an elevator with no doors.  Imagine the fantasy conspirator on the first floor hanging around while the police rush in turning the power off in plain sight to an elevator going up (with a police officer inside!) in attempt to trap the patsy who is supposed to be coming down.  It's absurd and laughable.  You should be ashamed and beg the forgiveness of fellow members for wasting our time.  Mooney simply didn't know how to properly operate that elevator.  Once his passengers get off he doesn't have a clue how it works.  He assumes (one of your favorite words) that the power is off because he can't get the elevator back in motion and a conspiracy myth is born.  And wasn't it nice of the police in those days to give an elevator ride to ladies into a building with a possible active shooter?  The good old days.  Some tough people back then who went back to work after someone just shot the president from their building and was on the loose.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on March 01, 2018, 03:38:07 PM
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Mr. BALL - Did it work with a push button?
Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second.

Please let's have your in depth analysis of how Mooney got to second if he didn't know how to work the controls.

Feel free to use your finger if that helps you.

He had folks on the elevator who worked there and knew how to operate the elevator.  Once he lets them off he is suddenly stuck because it is not a typical elevator.  Now let's have your analysis of how the elevator gets from the first to the second floor if its power is turned off.  And how the conspirators intended to trap the patsy in an elevator with no doors.  And why they stop an elevator going UP if their intent was to trap the patsy coming DOWN.  And how long after the assassination this Mooney elevator trip occurs.  10 minutes or more?  Your conspirator stands around in the first floor while the police are walking past for that long fiddling with the power long after the patsy is gone.   Nerves of steel but for no apparent purpose.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on March 01, 2018, 04:50:36 PM
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Where did you put your finger?

No doubt what Mooney said, he got to second by using the controls. Then power was cut.

So the power was on when he took the elevator from the first to second floor but was cut at the exact instant his passengers got off?  The ones who worked there and knew how to operate the elevator.  What a coincidence.  Mooney attributes his inability to get the elevator to work to a power outage because he can't get it to move.   He simply didn't understand the nuances of the elevator.  He may simply have not closed the gate properly and didn't realize it because he was unfamiliar with that elevator.  It's a perfectly plausible explanation from the facts.   And makes a lot more sense than an intentional cut to the elevator from someone in the building for no apparent reason.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 01, 2018, 05:25:58 PM
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He had folks on the elevator who worked there and knew how to operate the elevator.  Once he lets them off he is suddenly stuck because it is not a typical elevator.  Now let's have your analysis of how the elevator gets from the first to the second floor if its power is turned off.  And how the conspirators intended to trap the patsy in an elevator with no doors.  And why they stop an elevator going UP if their intent was to trap the patsy coming DOWN.  And how long after the assassination this Mooney elevator trip occurs.  10 minutes or more?  Your conspirator stands around in the first floor while the police are walking past for that long fiddling with the power long after the patsy is gone.   Nerves of steel but for no apparent purpose.

"And why they stop an elevator going UP if their intent was to trap the patsy coming DOWN."

Too funny, Richard! I can just see Oswald waving (and smirking) at the cops like Fernando Rey in The French Connection as the cop HacThe Lithping Larry Grayson "Oooh Shut That Door" doppleganger realizes he's been caught with his pants down.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 01, 2018, 07:01:58 PM
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I'll try again.  Some CTers - perhaps not yourself although it is difficult to follow since being a contrarian you won't take any position - contend that the power was off in the building based on the testimony of Hine.  Not just the elevators.  Repeat not just the elevators.  Follow along with your finger if that helps your reading comprehension.  So if the Hertz sign is on the same power source then it demonstrates that the power did not go off at 12:30 when CTers interpret Hine to make this claim because we can clearly see it is functional at that moment.  This has nothing to do with the elevators except they would not be operational if the power was off to the entire building.   Got that?  The power outage under discussion is broader than just the elevators.  There can be examples that go to the power outage and examples that go more specifically to just the elevators. You keep interjecting yourself in this discussion and trying to limit it to the elevators when that is not the case for many of your fellow CTers.

"Many of your fellow CTers" is just your euphemism for Richard's latest strawman.  Who suggested a building-wide power outage?  And you're so busy being an arrogant ass with your "follow along with your finger" nonsense, that you didn't even realize that Tom showed that the sign was on a completely separate meter and circuit.  It had nothing to do with the building power.

Quote
Now moving on to your narrower issue, if the power was on in the building but someone was turning off the power only to the elevators for some unknown purpose.  We know - despite the fact that you keep ignoring it - that Baker and Truly took the freight elevator to the top floor.

So what?  That somehow shows that the elevators had power when Mooney and Adams tried them?  By your twisted logic, power outages never occur anywhere, because the power is on at other times.

Quote
Tom relies upon Mooney as evidence of the power being turned off to the elevator.  Suggesting this was perhaps done to trap or delay the escape of the patsy from the upper floor (presumably Oswald).

LOL.  And you lecture me about reading comprehension.  Go ahead, quote Tom Sorenson ever saying that power to the elevators was turned off to delay the escape of the patsy from the upper floor.

Quote
  But we know a couple of things that makes that argument absurd.

Your strawman arguments usually are.

Quote
  First, Mooney was in an elevator heading UP.  The patsy they are trying to trap would have been in an elevator going DOWN.  Oswald is also already gone by that point.  He is not even in the building.

...and how do you know that?  Mary Bledsoe?  How did you even determine that it was "many minutes after the assassination" when Mooney tried the elevator?  How many minutes?

Quote
And is Mooney trapped or delayed by this power outage to his elevator

Of course he is.  Duh.  It takes more time to use the stairs.

Quote
Imagine the fantasy conspirator on the first floor hanging around while the police rush in turning the power off in plain sight to an elevator going up

So now the breaker box is "in plain sight" of the elevators on the first floor.  This just keeps getting better and better.

Quote
It's absurd and laughable.

I agree.  Your "fantasy conspirators" strawman are always absurd and laughable.  But you never deviate from the same old shtick.

Quote
Mooney simply didn't know how to properly operate that elevator.

He said "we had no more power on the elevator".  He didn't say he couldn't figure out how to work it.  He had just operated it to get to the second floor.  Do you think he forgot how to push a button?

But wait, are you also going to claim that Adams also didn't have a clue how to work an elevator that she used all the time in the building where she worked?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 01, 2018, 07:05:19 PM
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He had folks on the elevator who worked there and knew how to operate the elevator.  Once he lets them off he is suddenly stuck because it is not a typical elevator.

How was it not a "typical elevator"?  You're just making things up as you go along and digging your hole deeper.

Quote
And why they stop an elevator going UP if their intent was to trap the patsy coming DOWN.

LOL.  Richard thinks that power only works in one direction.

Quote
  And how long after the assassination this Mooney elevator trip occurs.  10 minutes or more?

You tell us, Mr. "Many Minutes".
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on March 01, 2018, 07:24:52 PM
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"Many of your fellow CTers" is just your euphemism for Richard's latest strawman.  Who suggested a building-wide power outage?  And you're so busy being an arrogant ass with your "follow along with your finger" nonsense, that you didn't even realize that Tom showed that the sign was on a completely separate meter and circuit.  It had nothing to do with the building power.

So what?  That somehow shows that the elevators had power when Mooney and Adams tried them?  By your twisted logic, power outages never occur anywhere, because the power is on at other times.

LOL.  And you lecture me about reading comprehension.  Go ahead, quote Tom Sorenson ever saying that power to the elevators was turned off to delay the escape of the patsy from the upper floor.

Your strawman arguments usually are.

...and how do you know that?  Mary Bledsoe?  How did you even determine that it was "many minutes after the assassination" when Mooney tried the elevator?  How many minutes?

Of course he is.  Duh.  It takes more time to use the stairs.

So now the breaker box is "in plain sight" of the elevators on the first floor.  This just keeps getting better and better.

I agree.  Your "fantasy conspirators" strawman are always absurd and laughable.  But you never deviate from the same old shtick.

He said "we had no more power on the elevator".  He didn't say he couldn't figure out how to work it.  He had just operated it to get to the second floor.  Do you think he forgot how to push a button?

But wait, are you also going to claim that Adams also didn't have a clue how to work an elevator that she used all the time in the building where she worked?

Johnny going to cry soon?  For a guy who whines about name calling this is a great post.  Not going to wade through yet more of your compulsion driven contrarian nonsense.  Just to note that you have dishonestly cited the information contained in Tom's article which says nothing about the sign being on a separate meter (and the article is discussing a different sign from a decade prior and not the Hertz sign).  And even if this were the case it in no way precludes a power outage to the entire building from affecting the sign.  You have previously declared victory on this point by lending support to Walt's baseless claim that the Hertz sign was battery powered.  Now without missing a beat it is suddenly on an electrical meter.  And on and on with the ad hoc reasoning.  As for the theories of other CTers about this power outage, anyone can go back and read them on this thread.  They can speak for themselves.  No reason to go through it yet again to satisfy your contrarian hobby.   
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 01, 2018, 07:39:55 PM
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Johnny going to cry soon?  For a guy who whines about name calling this is a great post.  Not going to wade through yet more of your compulsion driven contrarian nonsense.

This is Richard-ese for "my ridiculous argument was destroyed, but I need to try to save face somehow".

Quote
  Just to note that you have dishonestly cited the information contained in Tom's article which says nothing about the sign being on a separate meter (and the article is discussing a different sign from a decade prior and not the Hertz sign).

(https://media.tenor.com/images/267122b38ed9e140b94a72c40b27ec4a/tenor.gif)
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From 1953, the infrastructure was in place on the TSBD roof for a devoted high voltage power line on its own independent circuit and utility meter

Face it, Richard.  You made a silly argument that the Hertz sign being illuminated at 12:30 somehow proved that there was never a power outage inside the building.  Just own it instead of trying to cover it up with your usual arrogant condescending routine.

Quote
As for the theories of other CTers about this power outage, anyone can go back and read them on this thread.  They can speak for themselves.  No reason to go through it yet again to satisfy your contrarian hobby.

Yeah, right.  No examples then.  That's what I figured, yet another Richard Smith strawman.  Do you actually think you're fooling anyone?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on March 01, 2018, 08:18:59 PM
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This is Richard-ese for "my ridiculous argument was destroyed, but I need to try to save face somehow".

(https://media.tenor.com/images/267122b38ed9e140b94a72c40b27ec4a/tenor.gif)
Face it, Richard.  You made a silly argument that the Hertz sign being illuminated at 12:30 somehow proved that there was never a power outage inside the building.  Just own it instead of trying to cover it up with your usual arrogant condescending routine.

Yeah, right.  No examples then.  That's what I figured, yet another Richard Smith strawman.  Do you actually think you're fooling anyone?

Note that John is citing to Tom's commentary as fact rather than the information actually contained in the article which says nothing about the sign being separately metered or continuing to function if the power to building has gone out.  Tom merely expressed his opinion on that matter.  John apparently has confused the two in his haste to be correct about something for once.  And the sign being discussed is a different sign from 1953 and not the Hertz sign.  Although I agree it may have relevance and it's a good find which puts to rest the baseless contention of Walt that Johnny so desperately wanted to be true that the Hertz sign was battery powered.  I know Johnny don't cry.  It wasn't your claim per se so you can run away now after making a big noise about it. 
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 01, 2018, 10:19:49 PM
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Note that John is citing to Tom's commentary as fact rather than the information actually contained in the article which says nothing about the sign being separately metered or continuing to function if the power to building has gone out.  Tom merely expressed his opinion on that matter.

Tom doesn't "merely express his opinion" without backing it up with enormous amounts of data.  You on the other hand take your "mere opinions" and state them as facts.  For example that the Hertz sign being illuminated at 12:30 "proves" that there was never a power outage inside the building, or that Luke Mooney didn't know how to work an elevator.

Quote
Although I agree it may have relevance and it's a good find which puts to rest the baseless contention of Walt that Johnny so desperately wanted to be true that the Hertz sign was battery powered.

You just can't help yourself can you, Mr. Strawman?  Yeah, I desperately want Walt to be right, that's why I keep a list of his fabrications.  Yet, you're the one who claimed that it was connected to the TSBD power with no evidence whatsoever and then demanded that I do research to prove you wrong.  Which is how you argue every aspect of this case.  Oswald did it unless you can prove he didn't.  Oswald did it unless you can prove there was a cadre of fantasy conspirators.  Blah blah blah insult insult blah blah blah.

Quote
  I know Johnny don't cry.  It wasn't your claim per se so you can run away now after making a big noise about it.

No, but you're sure running away from the claim that you made, aren't you?  I'm not crying -- I'm laughing at your ridiculous pompousness.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 01, 2018, 10:55:59 PM
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Anyway here's some more frameshots of the back of the building and the 6th floor.

And this gif should put any guessing to bed, through the sniper's nest window in the TVmovie we see the same 3 buildings beyond that actually exist there.

Credit where due.  I think you nailed it here.  Well done.

I watched Ruby and Oswald last night.  It was a pretty decently done telling of the official narrative, with only a couple of minor discrepancies (like where Frazier parked) and some very contrived dialogue ("here's your officially timestamped receipt, Mr. Ruby").  But they had more attention to detail than any other movie I've seen.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 02, 2018, 12:16:12 AM
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Tom doesn't "merely express his opinion" without backing it up with enormous amounts of data.  You on the other hand take your "mere opinions" and state them as facts.  For example that the Hertz sign being illuminated at 12:30 "proves" that there was never a power outage inside the building, or that Luke Mooney didn't know how to work an elevator.

You just can't help yourself can you, Mr. Strawman?  Yeah, I desperately want Walt to be right, that's why I keep a list of his fabrications.  Yet, you're the one who claimed that it was connected to the TSBD power with no evidence whatsoever and then demanded that I do research to prove you wrong.  Which is how you argue every aspect of this case.  Oswald did it unless you can prove he didn't.  Oswald did it unless you can prove there was a cadre of fantasy conspirators.  Blah blah blah insult insult blah blah blah.

No, but you're sure running away from the claim that you made, aren't you?  I'm not crying -- I'm laughing at your ridiculous pompousness.

One of the articles says that the Ford sign required more power than an average city block would use in one day. Another article says that the sign was powered by sixty-five transformers....

And Richard thinks they just connected it to the electricity supply of the TSBD.... Go figure!
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on March 02, 2018, 12:24:28 AM
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One of the articles says that the Ford sign required more power than an average city block would use in one day. Another article says that the sign was powered by sixty-five transformers....

And Richard thinks they just connected it to the electricity supply of the TSBD.... Go figure!

Again, the power used by the Ford sign that was in place in 1953 is not particularly relevant to the Hertz sign.  But do you think it worked on batteries?  If not, then there was electrical power that came through the TSBD.  Walt and John disputed that point with no evidence whatsoever.  The sign was atop the TSBD.  How do you think the electricity got there? 
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 02, 2018, 12:45:10 AM
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Again, the power used by the Ford sign that was in place in 1953 is not particularly relevant to the Hertz sign.  But do you think it worked on batteries?  If not, then there was electrical power that came through the TSBD.  Walt and John disputed that point with no evidence whatsoever.  The sign was atop the TSBD.  How do you think the electricity got there?

Again, the power used by the Ford sign that was in place in 1953 is not particularly relevant to the Hertz sign.

Really? For the Ford required a seperate power supply and got one, but for the even larger Hertz sign they just plugged in a cable in one of TSBD's sockets... is that what you are trying to say?

Amazing....


The sign was atop the TSBD.  How do you think the electricity got there?

Is that a serious question?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on March 02, 2018, 01:03:50 AM
Here is a response from Stephen Fagin who replaced Gary Mack:

Hello Mr. Smith,


Thank you for contacting The Sixth Floor Museum with a surprisingly challenging question. I did some research, reviewing about twenty years of newspaper articles that mentioned the sign, oral histories recorded by the Museum, and photographs of the building taken from every angle? and I am afraid I do not have a definitive answer for you. The Museum does have the metal faceplate of the sign, separated into about 128 individual pieces, and most of these components have loose wires on the reverse ? but with no indication of their original power source. The sign was installed in December 1959 and removed in May 1979, and as you know, the time and temperature function was discontinued in 1973.

The Dallas sign was one of only three Hertz billboard advertisements in the U.S. that had the electronic time and temperature apparatus, and despite numerous mentions in the news media, I was not able to determine ? from any news sources or Museum oral history ? where the power came from. I suspect it was not a battery, as it would have been virtually impossible in the late 1950s/early 1960s to power some 800 light bulbs on the sign with a battery without having to recharge or replace the unit every day or so. It may have had its own generator of some sort, though I have not seen any indication of this in any photograph and, from what I can gather, there was no generator on the roof when Dallas County engineers assessed the structural integrity of the building in 1978. It is possible a generator or independent power source was removed after the discontinuing the sign?s illumination in 1973, but it is equally possible that the sign drew its electricity from the building. I wish I had a definitive answer for you.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 02, 2018, 03:41:20 PM
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Here is a response from Stephen Fagin who replaced Gary Mack:

Hello Mr. Smith,


Thank you for contacting The Sixth Floor Museum with a surprisingly challenging question. I did some research, reviewing about twenty years of newspaper articles that mentioned the sign, oral histories recorded by the Museum, and photographs of the building taken from every angle? and I am afraid I do not have a definitive answer for you. The Museum does have the metal faceplate of the sign, separated into about 128 individual pieces, and most of these components have loose wires on the reverse ? but with no indication of their original power source. The sign was installed in December 1959 and removed in May 1979, and as you know, the time and temperature function was discontinued in 1973.

The Dallas sign was one of only three Hertz billboard advertisements in the U.S. that had the electronic time and temperature apparatus, and despite numerous mentions in the news media, I was not able to determine ? from any news sources or Museum oral history ? where the power came from. I suspect it was not a battery, as it would have been virtually impossible in the late 1950s/early 1960s to power some 800 light bulbs on the sign with a battery without having to recharge or replace the unit every day or so. It may have had its own generator of some sort, though I have not seen any indication of this in any photograph and, from what I can gather, there was no generator on the roof when Dallas County engineers assessed the structural integrity of the building in 1978. It is possible a generator or independent power source was removed after the discontinuing the sign?s illumination in 1973, but it is equally possible that the sign drew its electricity from the building. I wish I had a definitive answer for you.

So Mr. Fagin couldn't help you. What's next?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 02, 2018, 10:32:28 PM
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One of the articles says that the Ford sign required more power than an average city block would use in one day. Another article says that the sign was powered by sixty-five transformers....

And Richard thinks they just connected it to the electricity supply of the TSBD.... Go figure!

Transformers do not power anything. They merely increase or decrease voltage. It is very plausible, and probable, that the sign was fed off of the electrical supply to the TSBD.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 02, 2018, 11:01:47 PM
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Transformers do not power anything. They merely increase or decrease voltage. It is very plausible, and probable, that the sign was fed off of the electrical supply to the TSBD.


Really Tim,

When a similar sign by Ford used so much power that it could light up an entire city block?

You think that's plausible? Did you read what Tom Scully wrote in another thread?

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(Hey Tim, as a side note, I am not ignoring your question in the other thread. I withdrew, at least for the time being.
I learned in the money order debate that what I believe is overwhelming evidence supporting a conclusion is far from
convincing to some others. IOW, if one believes John Sexton wholesale grocers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexton_Foods) would consent to their electric service metering being co-mingled (power consumption metering for billing to Sexton by electric utility) with DH Byrd's roof billboard lease arrangements with first the Ford animated neon display (described as consuming daily power equivalent of a city block) and then the 6,000 bulb Hertz time/temp sign, what could I add that would be of any influence? BTW, I checked and from at least 1950 Dallas performed vigorous building permit inspection of construction, plumbing, and electrical work. If you have owned or managed an intensely dependent gas or electric utility powered business operation, experience dictates it could be assumed an building code mandated permit and inspection would be required for the 1953 installation of the electrical power supply enhancements designed to power the new animated neon sign atop the Sexton building. Sexton attempted frozen food storage and distribution (freezer storage is a high electrical demand business line) in 1940 in Chicago but the war curtailed that in 1941 and the frozen food lines were not added again while Sexton occupied the future TSBD building until departing to a new modern one story building in 1960. IOW, in 1953 the power distribution system in that building was likely as it was when the plow company vacated it by the 1930s
and could not support the power requirements to the roof for the 1953 neon sign
without major improvement which preseented the opportunity and very, very, likely required the installation of a unique utility meter and associated shut off for the roof sign power supply.)
.........

I'm not sure why Tom posted it in another thread, but what he says makes a lot more sense than the notion that the sign would simply be plugged into the regular power supply of the TSBD. But no doubt, you'll disagree, right?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 03, 2018, 12:03:40 AM
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Again, the power used by the Ford sign that was in place in 1953 is not particularly relevant to the Hertz sign.  But do you think it worked on batteries?  If not, then there was electrical power that came through the TSBD.  Walt and John disputed that point with no evidence whatsoever.

Wrong Richard.  You said it was necessarily tied to the building's power with no evidence whatsoever.  That's what I disputed.

Quote
The sign was atop the TSBD.  How do you think the electricity got there?

Straight from a pole to its own meter.  Do you think the TSBD wanted to pay Hertz's electric bill?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on March 03, 2018, 03:19:23 PM


        Why on Earth would the TSBD who is: (1) Paying Minimum Wage to its' employees, and (2) Renting out office space to generate income,  PAY/$$$ for the electricity to light that Massive Power Sucking Hertz Sign?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Chris Douglas on March 03, 2018, 05:29:24 PM
At the very least Hertz rented the space from the TSBD, making it likely that Hertz paid the actual electric bill.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on March 03, 2018, 05:40:14 PM
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At the very least Hertz rented the space from the TSBD, making it likely that Hertz paid the actual electric bill.


      What do you wanna bet that the Monthly Rental Space for the Hertz Sign was LESS than the Monthly Electric Bill ???
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Chris Douglas on March 03, 2018, 05:55:26 PM
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      What do you wanna bet that the Monthly Rental Space for the Hertz Sign was LESS than the Monthly Electric Bill ???

I honestly wouldn't know. But after reading what it took/takes to light the sign up, it wouldn't surprise me if the bill to light it was substantially higher.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 04, 2018, 01:42:13 AM
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Really Tim,

When a similar sign by Ford used so much power that it could light up an entire city block?

You think that's plausible? Did you read what Tom Scully wrote in another thread?

I'm not sure why Tom posted it in another thread, but what he says makes a lot more sense than the notion that the sign would simply be plugged into the regular power supply of the TSBD. But no doubt, you'll disagree, right?

I do think it's plausible, yes. That's not to say that Tom's scenario is not also plausible. I'm only going by my own experience. I believe that the sign would have been powered off of the TSBD supply. It would have had a meter in-line to measure it's usage. In the facility where I'm currently employed, we used to have five electrical meters that we took the readings from at the end of every month. There's now only three. A 120 volt meter and a 600 Volt meter were removed. If I'm on shift at the time, I take the readings from the three remaining meters. Two of the three are for units attached to our building but not considered part of it. They get their power from us and we charge them for it. The third is for one of our own pieces of equipment. It uses a lot of power and they want to keep track of just how much.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 04, 2018, 01:45:28 AM
The same goes for water usage for one of the attached units. We have a meter that records their usage.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on March 05, 2018, 02:54:54 PM
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Wrong Richard.  You said it was necessarily tied to the building's power with no evidence whatsoever.  That's what I disputed.

Straight from a pole to its own meter.  Do you think the TSBD wanted to pay Hertz's electric bill?

Of course the TSBD would not want to pay the Hertz electric bill.  But that adds absolutely no support to your implication that the sign had an independent power source.  Talk about an assumption. Hertz could have contracted to pay the TSBD owner whatever the estimated monthly electrical cost of the sign.  Look this is easy.  Whether the sign had an independent link to power or received its power via the same source as the TSBD, the power to both would have gone off if there was an external power outage to that location.  I believe that is exactly what Tom concluded. Like the power going off to a city block.  Can you compute that fact? 

Now if we are narrowing things down to someone pulling a circuit switch inside the building, then of course it would be possible to cut the power to specific parts of the building without turning the sign off.  In that situation, we are left to look to the specific facts to reach a conclusion.  For example, if the claim is that the power was cut to specific elevators, we have multiple examples of those same elevators being in operation in the same time frame.  Baker and Truly take the freight elevator.  A freight elevator comes down to the first floor because we know Mooney takes it from the first floor to the second floor etc.  Once the freight elevator reaches the second floor and those who work in the building get out, Mooney can no longer operate it.  He attributes this to a power outage but it is just as plausible that he simply can't figure out the quirks of this elevator once those who work in the building exit.  It is not a normal passenger elevator that entails just pushing a button.  It is an old freight elevator in a warehouse.  But the outage premise becomes even more absurd if attributed to some type of planned conspiracy event which must entail a conspirator hanging around in the TSBD long after the DPD have entered the building search for the assassin.  This person would be manipulating the internal circuit boxes at great risk for no apparent reason instead of doing the logical thing and making tracks.  It just doesn't add up as part of a conspiracy narrative.  If you are not alleging the power outage was part of any planned conspiracy, then it doesn't matter much whether it happened or not.  If you want to entertain this as a random outage that had no direct connection to the assassination, then it is unimportant except as a matter of historical curiosity.   
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Royell Storing on March 05, 2018, 03:26:20 PM
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Of course the TSBD would not want to pay the Hertz electric bill.  But that adds absolutely no support to your implication that the sign had an independent power source.  Talk about an assumption. Hertz could have contracted to pay the TSBD owner whatever the estimated monthly electrical cost of the sign.  Look this is easy.  Whether the sign had an independent link to power or received its power via the same source as the TSBD, the power to both would have gone off if there was an external power outage to that location.  I believe that is exactly what Tom concluded. Like the power going off to a city block.  Can you compute that fact? 

Now if we are narrowing things down to someone pulling a circuit switch inside the building, then of course it would be possible to cut the power to specific parts of the building without turning the sign off.  In that situation, we are left to look to the specific facts to reach a conclusion.  For example, if the claim is that the power was cut to specific elevators, we have multiple examples of those same elevators being in operation in the same time frame.  Baker and Truly take the freight elevator.  A freight elevator comes down to the first floor because we know Mooney takes it from the first floor to the second floor etc.  Once the freight elevator reaches the second floor and those who work in the building get out, Mooney can no longer operate it.  He attributes this to a power outage but it is just as plausible that he simply can't figure out the quirks of this elevator once those who work in the building exit.  It is not a normal passenger elevator that entails just pushing a button.  It is an old freight elevator in a warehouse.  But the outage premise becomes even more absurd if attributed to some type of planned conspiracy event which must entail a conspirator hanging around in the TSBD long after the DPD have entered the building search for the assassin.  This person would be manipulating the internal circuit boxes at great risk for no apparent reason instead of doing the logical thing and making tracks.  It just doesn't add up as part of a conspiracy narrative.  If you are not alleging the power outage was part of any planned conspiracy, then it doesn't matter much whether it happened or not.  If you want to entertain this as a random outage that had no direct connection to the assassination, then it is unimportant except as a matter of historical curiosity.

So let's Clarify this. Are YOU claiming that the Power Line which provided electricity to the TSBD Building was the Same Power Line which provided Massive amounts of electricity to the Hertz Sign???
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 05, 2018, 06:06:27 PM
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implying that Mooney never before had operated an old freight which in this case actually was a push button thing.

I doesn't get much better to illustrate how a the delusional mind of a fanatic works.

Thanks for illustrating how the delusional mind of a fanatic works.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on March 05, 2018, 06:34:58 PM
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Quote from: Richard Smith on Today at 02:54:54 PM
Mooney can no longer operate it.  He attributes this to a power outage but it is just as plausible that he simply can't figure out the quirks of this elevator once those who work in the building exit.

Continued unsupported claim from a Warren fanboy now supported by another unsupported claim:

It is not a normal passenger elevator that entails just pushing a button.  It is an old freight elevator in a warehouse.

implying that Mooney never before had operated an old freight which in this case actually was a push button thing.

I doesn't get much better to illustrate how a the delusional mind of a fanatic works.

You would be an expert on delusional minds given your theory in this instance.  We have reached the point of impasse.  You have provided all manner of unsupported, outlandish fantasies involving the elevator and Mooney.  But you refuse to acknowledge the most obvious.  That he simply didn't know how to work an old freight elevator that did require more than just pushing a button.  The elevator was working just fine from the first to second floor.  Magic elves did not power it.  But suddenly when the people who work in the building get off Mooney can't get it to operate. 

btw:  you have never specified a time frame for Mooney's elevator ride.  What time do you think it took place?  That would seemingly be an important factor if the outage was the result of some intentional action by the fantasy conspirators.  Why turn the power off at that moment?  At the very least it takes place well after the alleged Hine power outage which she reports as happening as the motorcade passed.  Given that we know the power was on to this elevator after the motorcade because it makes its way to the first floor and then to the second, that means you must be suggesting the power was off (or Hine was incorrect), then on so the elevator could function, and then back off to cause Mooney's issue.   Busy conspirators and for no apparent reason. 
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 05, 2018, 06:59:44 PM
What is difficult about operating a "push button elevator". It's not as if it needed an operator to ensure that it worked.

A clue is in it was a Push button operated.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 05, 2018, 07:35:27 PM
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What is difficult about operating a "push button elevator". It's not as if it needed an operator to ensure that it worked.

A clue is in it was a Push button operated.

Ray, you didn't just step onto the elevator and push a button.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on March 05, 2018, 08:54:50 PM
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What is difficult about operating a "push button elevator". It's not as if it needed an operator to ensure that it worked.

A clue is in it was a Push button operated.

LOL.  Like I said, Mooney would have said something similar because he didn't know what he didn't know.  There are two passengers on Mooney's elevator who work in the building and know how that elevator works.  They get off at the 2nd floor.  Mooney then can't get the elevator moving.  Think about how they get off that elevator and what is necessary for Mooney to do properly to get it moving again other than just pushing a button.  Can I prove it to Tom's subjective satisfaction?  Of course not.  Particularly when he keeps changing his story or refusing to clarify what it is he is suggesting happened but it is plausible that Mooney simply couldn't figure out how to operate that freight elevator once his passengers get off.  And again, if someone wants to suggest there was a power outage but it was just some coincidence and not part of any planned conspiracy, that is fine with me even if false.  It would just be a matter of historical curiosity and have no relevance to proving a conspiracy.   Thus, not a particularly meaningful event.  The totality of evidence suggests there was no power outage.  The Hine testimony relates to the lights on her phone.  There are numerous examples in the same time frame of the elevators functioning.  If there were any outage, it was of short duration and after Oswald had left the building suggesting it was not part of any designed plan as some CTers imply.   There is no plausible conspiracy narrative for turning the power off briefly to this elevator which entailed the significant risk of hanging around in the building after the DPD is searching it.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 05, 2018, 09:00:58 PM
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LOL.  Like I said, Mooney would have said something similar because he didn't know what he didn't know.  There are two passengers on Mooney's elevator who work in the building and know how that elevator works.  They get off at the 2nd floor.  Mooney then can't get the elevator moving.  Think about how they get off that elevator and what is necessary for Mooney to do properly to get it moving again other than just pushing a button.  Can I prove it to Tom's subjective satisfaction?  Of course not.  Particularly when he keeps changing his story or refusing to clarify what it is he is suggesting happened but it is plausible that Mooney simply couldn't figure out how to operate that freight elevator once his passengers get off.  And again, if someone wants to suggest there was a power outage but it was just some coincidence and not part of any planned conspiracy, that is fine with me even if false.  It would just be a matter of historical curiosity and have no relevance to proving a conspiracy.   Thus, not a particularly meaningful event.  The totality of evidence suggests there was no power outage.  The Hine testimony relates to the lights on her phone.  There are numerous examples in the same time frame of the elevators functioning.  If there were any outage, it was of short duration and after Oswald had left the building suggesting it was not part of any designed plan as some CTers imply.   There is no plausible conspiracy narrative for turning the power off briefly to this elevator which entailed the significant risk of hanging around in the building after the DPD is searching it.

You would have to be a particularly  stupid cop not to be able to operate a push button elevator.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 06, 2018, 12:14:28 AM
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Of course the TSBD would not want to pay the Hertz electric bill.  But that adds absolutely no support to your implication that the sign had an independent power source.  Talk about an assumption. Hertz could have contracted to pay the TSBD owner whatever the estimated monthly electrical cost of the sign.  Look this is easy.

Sure, now you just have to come up with some evidence for that.  Do you have any?

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Whether the sign had an independent link to power or received its power via the same source as the TSBD, the power to both would have gone off if there was an external power outage to that location.  I believe that is exactly what Tom concluded. Like the power going off to a city block.  Can you compute that fact? 

Who in the world do you think claimed there was an external power outage to that location, like the power going off to a city block?

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Now if we are narrowing things down to someone pulling a circuit switch inside the building, then of course it would be possible to cut the power to specific parts of the building without turning the sign off.

Thank you.  Was that so hard?

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  In that situation, we are left to look to the specific facts to reach a conclusion.  For example, if the claim is that the power was cut to specific elevators, we have multiple examples of those same elevators being in operation in the same time frame.

Only if you concoct a "time frame" that encompasses whatever non-specific times somebody claimed to have used an elevator.  I'm not sure how that demonstrates that the power was on when Mooney and Adams tried to use them.  That doesn't fit in with your world view so you're just making unsubstantiated excuses to disregard it.  Which is what you do with all conflicting evidence in this case.  What's new?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 06, 2018, 12:16:41 AM
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You would be an expert on delusional minds given your theory in this instance.  We have reached the point of impasse.  You have provided all manner of unsupported, outlandish fantasies involving the elevator and Mooney.  But you refuse to acknowledge the most obvious.  That he simply didn't know how to work an old freight elevator that did require more than just pushing a button.

And as we see here again, something is the "most obvious" solely based on Richard's unsubstantiated opinion.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 06, 2018, 12:19:18 AM
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The totality of evidence suggests there was no power outage.  The Hine testimony relates to the lights on her phone.

That's just your speculation.  Hine didn't say "lights on her phone".  Your speculations do not constitute evidence.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 06, 2018, 04:19:53 AM
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You would have to be a particularly  stupid cop not to be able to operate a push button elevator.

Again Ray, you didn't just step onto those elevators , press a button and up you went. There was more to it than that.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on March 06, 2018, 01:41:54 PM
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You would have to be a particularly  stupid cop not to be able to operate a push button elevator.

Certainly no stupider than to have 50 plus years to understand how these elevators worked and still not be able to figure it out. 
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on March 06, 2018, 01:55:15 PM
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Who in the world do you think claimed there was an external power outage to that location, like the power going off to a city block?



One obvious possibility for any power outage is that its source is external to the building.  Coming from someone who claims it is a strawman argument that anyone has suggested a conspiracy - even though that claim has been made directly and indirectly by many of your nutty kindred - it is particularly odd to exclude a random, external power outage from the discussion as to the source of the alleged power outage.  That leaves someone in the building intentionally turning off the power.  Why would any conspirator risk being in the building long after the assassination to briefly turn the power off and on to the freight elevators?  It doesn't add up.  I'm simply addressing all the possibilities for a power outage.  That includes an external source.  The point being that the Hertz sign would not be operational if the source was an external outage.  Because the sign was working - regardless of whether it was on the same or separate power source as the TSBD - that tells us there was no external power outage to that location.  The sign is relevant in ruling out that possibility.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 06, 2018, 04:22:28 PM
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Again Ray, you didn't just step onto those elevators , press a button and up you went. There was more to it than that.

Please explain exactly what you have to do to make them operate correctly, Tim.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 06, 2018, 09:19:42 PM
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One obvious possibility for any power outage is that its source is external to the building.  Coming from someone who claims it is a strawman argument that anyone has suggested a conspiracy - even though that claim has been made directly and indirectly by many of your nutty kindred

The strawman is the vast fantasy conspiracy of thousands who meticulously planned every little detail of what happened that day and the months leading up to it.  That's the one you keep invoking in your counter-arguments, and yes, you are nutty to keep inventing it.

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Because the sign was working - regardless of whether it was on the same or separate power source as the TSBD - that tells us there was no external power outage to that location.  The sign is relevant in ruling out that possibility.

Cool, you've ruled out that possibility.  Now how about actually supporting your claim that there was not a power outage of any kind and that Mooney just didn't know how to work the elevator and neither did Adams (or what excuse did you use for her?), and that Hine was talking about lights on her phone?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 07, 2018, 09:58:30 PM
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Please explain exactly what you have to do to make them operate correctly, Tim.

Ray, watch the following video up to the 1:20 mark and you'll get what I believe is a good visual explanation as to why the elevator failed to work for Officer Mooney.

Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Mytton on March 07, 2018, 10:05:55 PM
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Ray, watch the following video up to the 1:20 mark and you'll get what I believe is a good visual explanation as to why the elevator failed to work for Officer Mooney.





That's a good video and explains the intricacies of operating the doors on the Elevator, I guarantee that without previous knowledge that 0% of the CT's here would be able to operate the Elevator in your video and I bet that 100% of LNers would figure it out because that's what we do!



JohnM

Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 07, 2018, 10:38:37 PM
LNers usually just automatically believe anything a cop says in this case.  Unless the cop says something that goes against their little fantasy bubble.  Then the cop gets thrown right under the bus.  Too stupid to figure out how to close a gate, but he suddenly got a lot smarter when it came to remembering where the empty shells were located.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 07, 2018, 11:09:38 PM
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That's a good video and explains the intricacies of operating the doors on the Elevator, I guarantee that without previous knowledge that 0% of the CT's here would be able to operate the Elevator in your video and I bet that 100% of LNers would figure it out because that's what we do!
JohnM

Fortunately for me, I never had to figure it out on my own. It was explained to me the first time I ever got on a freight elevator and before the button was even pressed.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 07, 2018, 11:11:08 PM
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Are you now claiming that the elevator design in the TSBD was not unique to the TSBD?

Tom, I don't know if the elevator design in the TSBD was unique to the TSBD or not. I doubt that it was though.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 13, 2018, 03:31:24 AM
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Which leads to the reasonable assumption that this was a generic freight elevator design back in the day.

Can you provide any evidence that Mooney had not operated a freight elevator prior to Nov 22, 1963, making him unaware of that gate detail?

Can you provide any evidence that Mooney had operated a freight elevator prior to Nov 22, 1963, making him aware of that gate detail?
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: Richard Smith on March 26, 2018, 04:12:20 PM
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LNers usually just automatically believe anything a cop says in this case.  Unless the cop says something that goes against their little fantasy bubble.  Then the cop gets thrown right under the bus.  Too stupid to figure out how to close a gate, but he suddenly got a lot smarter when it came to remembering where the empty shells were located.

This from the cop hater who believes Oswald's rights were violated in the Texas Theatre.  And that practically every cop in this case who provided any evidence lied to implicate Oswald. The hypocrisy is shocking even from an individual with a history of outlandish dishonesty.  No one is throwing Mooney under the bus or claiming he was stupid (strawman anyone?).  He honestly but erroneously thought the power had gone out because he couldn't get the elevator to operate.  The totality of evidence, however, suggests these elevators were working fine in the aftermath of the assassination.  There are several examples including Mooney himself taking the elevator from the first to second floor.  What nuts like yourself are implying is that some unknown person (maybe one of those conspirators you always deny you are suggesting?) was in the building turning the power off to this elevator at that moment.  There is zero evidence of the presence any such person.  There is zero reason for anyone - conspirator or otherwise - to turn the power off to this elevator.  It is baseless and absurd and countered by the evidence of these elevators otherwise working just fine.  Does that satisfy your subjective, impossible standard of proof on the topic?  Of course not.  You are a nut.  But it is a reasonable explanation as supported by the facts and circumstances.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 26, 2018, 05:45:11 PM
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I have merely provided a logical alternative to that claim based on the totality of circumstances and evidence.

Making up a kooky claim that people (including someone who works in the building) don't know how elevators work is hardly logical.
Title: Re: Power cut important clarification required
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 26, 2018, 05:51:41 PM
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This from the cop hater who believes Oswald's rights were violated in the Texas Theatre.

The strawmen never end with you.  I don't hate cops.  And his rights were violated.  They had no probable cause to even search him.

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  And that practically every cop in this case who provided any evidence lied to implicate Oswald.

Strawman.

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The hypocrisy is shocking even from an individual with a history of outlandish dishonesty.

False.

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  No one is throwing Mooney under the bus or claiming he was stupid (strawman anyone?).  He honestly but erroneously thought the power had gone out because he couldn't get the elevator to operate.

You don't know that.  You just made it up.

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  The totality of evidence, however, suggests these elevators were working fine in the aftermath of the assassination.

Not at the time Mooney tried to leave the second floor.

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  There are several examples including Mooney himself taking the elevator from the first to second floor.

So what?  If they were ever running then they were always running?  More "logic"?

Calling people "nuts" for calling out your twisted logic doesn't prove your unfounded opinions.  Try evidence.