JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: David Monaghan on June 26, 2020, 08:43:45 AM
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Wasn't more fragments recovered from Connolly than missing from Magic bullet? I know other small fragments were also left behind in Connolly's wrist ? strange eh?
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Makes Magic bullet ' 399 ' not so magical !
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Dr. Robert Shaw, Governor Connally's physician, says that CE 399, the "Magic Bullet",
could not have caused the wounds he saw and treated in Governor Connally.
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Wasn't more fragments recovered from Connolly than missing from Magic bullet?
Was there? How much more? Was it 50% of the total weight missing or 10% or 1% or what exactly?
JohnM
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There were fragments in Connally's leg that were never removed. I believe there was a failed attempt to exhume his body, sometime after his death, to facilitate their removal.
CE 399 never touched Connally.
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There were fragments in Connally's leg that were never removed. I believe there was a failed attempt to exhume his body, sometime after his death, to facilitate their removal.
CE 399 never touched Connally.
There was only one fragment that was ever in Connally's leg. It was buried with him. In examining X-Rays of the thigh, Dr. Gregory determined it to be about 2mm x 0.5mm. That fragment came from CE 399 , which had shallowly lodged in the thigh and fell out onto Connally's stretcher where it was later found by Darrell Tomlinson.
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There was only one fragment that was ever in Connally's leg. It was buried with him. In examining X-Rays of the thigh, Dr. Gregory determined it to be about 2mm x 0.5mm. That fragment came from CE 399 , which had shallowly lodged in the thigh and fell out onto Connally's stretcher where it was later found by Darrell Tomlinson.
You're gonna need a doctor to explain a how a bullet that left fragments at the femur falls out of a leg
falls out? - :D>> - too funny
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You're gonna need a doctor to explain a how a bullet that left fragments at the femur falls out of a leg
falls out? - :D>> - too funny
How does a fragment that is 2mm in its greatest diameter create an entry wound 10 mm in diameter? Explain that one Einstein. Dr. Shires described the wound as being shallow. I don't need a doctor to explain how a 3 cm long bullet that had penetrated perhaps no more than a cm could have fallen out of the leg.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50090267596_c98b0c1a27_o.jpg)
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Wasn't more fragments recovered from Connolly than missing from Magic bullet? I know other small fragments were also left behind in Connolly's wrist ? strange eh?
'Wasn't weren't more fragments'
I hereby charge you with insulting the plural tense
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'Wasn't weren't more fragments'
I hereby charge you with insulting the plural tense
Ahem. Glass houses. Stones. Period.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50090267596_c98b0c1a27_o.jpg)
Thank you Thumb1:
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50090267596_c98b0c1a27_o.jpg)
Shires misread the X-ray. \
Dr. GREGORY - Careful examination of this set of X-rays illustrated or demonstrates, I should say, a number of artificial lines, this is one and there is one. These lines I think represent rather hurried development of these films for they were taken under emergency conditions. They were intended simply to let us know if there was another missile in the Governor's limb where it might be located.
The only missile turned up is the same one seen in the original film which lies directly opposite the area indicated as the site of the missile wound or the wound in the thigh, but a fragment of metal, again microscopic measuring about five-tenths of a millimeter by 2 millimeters, lies just beneath the skin, about a half inch on the medial aspect of the thigh.
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Shires misread the X-ray. \
:D
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Shires misread the X-ray. \
Dr. GREGORY - Careful examination of this set of X-rays illustrated or demonstrates, I should say, a number of artificial lines, this is one and there is one. These lines I think represent rather hurried development of these films for they were taken under emergency conditions. They were intended simply to let us know if there was another missile in the Governor's limb where it might be located.
The only missile turned up is the same one seen in the original film which lies directly opposite the area indicated as the site of the missile wound or the wound in the thigh, but a fragment of metal, again microscopic measuring about five-tenths of a millimeter by 2 millimeters, lies just beneath the skin, about a half inch on the medial aspect of the thigh.
Why would they leave fragments of metal in Connally's thigh if they were just beneath the skin?
They were fragments from a magic bullet, maybe that's why. :D
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JFK and John Connally are shot through with the same bullet in Z224. However, the injuries to Connally's wrist and leg are caused by fragments of bullets from JFK's headshot(s), as is the damage to the interior of the limousine.
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Ahem. Glass houses. Stones. Period.
I hate periods, except in paragraphs. A pet peeve of mine is seeing periods at the end of each line in a list. Each line has obviously ended; why add visual clutter?
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JFK and John Connally are shot through with the same bullet in Z224. However, the injuries to Connally's wrist and leg are caused by fragments of bullets from JFK's headshot(s), as is the damage to the interior of the limousine.
Bullets travel faster than the speed of sound, at least a rifle bullet from a 6.5 Carcano.
If you're shot by one you will not hear the report from the rifle.
You'll be reacting to the impact before the sound of it firing reaches you.
Connally heard and reacted to the sound of the bullet that hit JFK in the back.
His wife Nellie heard the shot and observed JFK's reaction to being hit.
She then heard the shot that hit her husband.
JBC didn't hear the report from the rifle blast that hit him but did feel the impact.
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The Z-film doesn't lie.
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JFK and John Connally are shot through with the same bullet in Z224. However, the injuries to Connally's wrist and leg are caused by fragments of bullets from JFK's headshot(s), as is the damage to the interior of the limousine.
How did those fragments get past Connally's torso and whatever happened to them? The size of the wounds rule out them being caused by small fragments. What happened to the bullet that entered his back and exited his chest?
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The Z-film doesn't lie.
from
"The xxxxxx Bullet"
by Raymond Marcus
1966
~snip~
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/bbullet1.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/bbullet2.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/bbullet3.jpg)
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quote author=Martin Hinrichs
"What we see here is in my eyes clearly the impact-moment of the shot which hits Kennedy in his back."
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/.highres/backhit.gif)
"Credit Giuseppe Sabatino"
Martin
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How did those fragments get past Connally's torso and whatever happened to them? The size of the wounds rule out them being caused by small fragments. What happened to the bullet that entered his back and exited his chest?
1) I'm not sure what you mean, "how did the fragments get past Connally's torso". When JFK is shot in the head Connally is lying directly in front of him with the back of his wrist
directly exposed to the blast only inches away.
2) What do you mean small fragments? Small enough to penetrate a windscreen twice as far away? Small enough to dent the metal strip equally as far away? How small? Why
do they have to be small fragments? The fragment that shattered his wrist would have to be a decent size.
3) The bullet that entered his back and exited his chest is the magic bullet. It just didn't cause the wrist or leg injury.
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1) I'm not sure what you mean, "how did the fragments get past Connally's torso". When JFK is shot in the head Connally is lying directly in front of him with the back of his wrist
directly exposed to the blast only inches away.
2) What do you mean small fragments? Small enough to penetrate a windscreen twice as far away? Small enough to dent the metal strip equally as far away? How small? Why
do they have to be small fragments? The fragment that shattered his wrist would have to be a decent size.
3) The bullet that entered his back and exited his chest is the magic bullet. It just didn't cause the wrist or leg injury.
1) Connally's wrist is not exposed to being hit at the time of the head shot.
2) CE 567 AND CE 569 are not small fragments. Those were the only two sizable fragments recovered in the limo. One struck the windshield. The other struck the chrome piece. Whatever happened to the two large fragments that you are arguing for?
3) What happened to the bullet that entered his back and exited his chest? Where did it go after exiting his chest?
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(https://i.postimg.cc/ZYg0tyRK/z224-226-gif-1.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
This is the moment Kennedy and Connally are shot through. In the first frame (z224) the bullet has already passed through both men. As Kennedy emerges from behind the sign it looks like his hand is already reaching for his throat but it's not. His hand was very often in this position as he put it up and down to wave, exactly as in this picture:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3R4gnFb/motorcade-9.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Cn1GqGz7)
In the next frame (z225)his right hand is beginning to snap shut. It is a Withdrawal (Nociceptive Flexion) Reflex, a response to trauma applied directly to the central nervous system. It is a reflex as opposed to a reaction. Connally's jacket bursts forward as the bullet loses much of its momentum, the tension of it pulling his jacket straight, from the collar, all the way down. His body is slightly twisted by the impact but he is yet to react.
In the last frame (z226) Kennedy reacts, we see his left elbow coming up as his hands move to his throat, his right hand snaps shut into a fist and flies to his throat. Connally's Stetson suddenly comes flying up. Up to this point Connally has been sat there quite serenely, this is how he looks as he passes behind the Stemmons sign and as he emerges. Suddenly he starts thrashing around and twisting his body in his seat. The very beginning of this thrashing starts in this frame.
That's what I see anyway.
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1) Connally's wrist is not exposed to being hit at the time of the head shot
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jM36zB8/z308-320-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
The back of Connally's right wrist is directly facing the head shot, is it not?
2) CE 567 AND CE 569 are not small fragments. Those were the only two sizable fragments recovered in the limo. One struck the windshield. The other struck the chrome piece. Whatever happened to the two large fragments that you are arguing for?
I'm not arguing for two large fragments or two small fragments and how do you know what fragments caused what damage to the limo? The inside of the limo was sprayed with fragments, you can tell this by the way Connally dives to his left and the two agents up front duck for cover. Pay attention to the space in between JFK and Connally in the head shot animation. At the time of the shot a spray of material crosses that space at high speed. Neither of us has a clue what size fragments at what speed would be required to cause the damage to Connally or the car.
3) What happened to the bullet that entered his back and exited his chest? Where did it go after exiting his chest?
My theory is that it had lost a lot of momentum passing through both men which is why it pulled his jacket forward so dramatically rather than just pass cleanly through it. If it had any serious momentum left it would have passed straight through his jacket and slammed into the seat in front. Which it didn't. So I suspect it didn't make it all the way through the jacket, it somehow got caught in his clothes and he took it to Parkland hospital and it fell out on a stretcher and blah, blah, blah.
It's the magic bullet. It can do what it wants.
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quote author=Martin Hinrichs
"What we see here is in my eyes clearly the impact-moment of the shot which hits Kennedy in his back."
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/.highres/backhit.gif)
"Credit Giuseppe Sabatino"
Martin
I agree. And note that the hands go nowhere near the throat. The right hand goes up to his mouth, and is cupped over his mouth. I believe he may be gagging after the bullet passed through his back and exited throat, and we could also be witnessing a dry heave.
The left hand comes up directly under the right hand. All fingers except for the index finger, are curled.
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quote author=Martin Hinrichs
"What we see here is in my eyes clearly the impact-moment of the shot which hits Kennedy in his back."
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/.highres/backhit.gif)
"Credit Giuseppe Sabatino"
Martin
No, it isn't. The impact moment has happened earlier. Before he comes into sight. Hinrichs cheated by not including the earlier frames where Kennedy's hands are shown to be already rising as he reappears from behind the sign. His left hand is shown to be rising from about stomach level in earlier frames.
The twofer was long gone by the time JFK & Connally are seen reacting.
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I agree. And note that the hands go nowhere near the throat. The right hand goes up to his mouth, and is cupped over his mouth. I believe he may be gagging after the bullet passed through his back and exited throat, and we could also be witnessing a dry heave.
The left hand comes up directly under the right hand. All fingers except for the index finger, are curled.
He's Superman and catches the supersonic bullet in his right hand, then appears to be putting it in his mouth
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... where Kennedy's hands are shown to be already rising as he reappears from behind the sign. His left hand is shown to be rising from about stomach level in earlier frames.
[Referring to the animation in 'Reply #24'] It is impossible to know whether Kennedy's right hand is rising or falling as it emerges from behind the Stemmons sign. As he goes behind the sign he is in the process of lowering his hand after waving so the probability is that his right hand is actually on the way down. There are many times where Kennedy's right hand is in exactly this position during the motorcade as demonstrated by the still photo in Reply #24. The bottom line is that you don't have the slightest clue what's happening with Kennedy's right hand as he emerges from behind the sign.
As for his left hand rising in earlier frames - that is 100% not true. It is not shown in Zapruder at all. Around z175 Kennedy's right arm is leaning over the side of the limo, his right hand clasping his left. He begins to wave with his right hand and his left stays resting on his stomach area until z225. Kennedy's hand begins to reflexively snap shut in this same frame and is fully closed in z226. Importantly, it is this frame where we see Kennedy's left elbow come up as he reacts to being shot.
He's Superman and catches the supersonic bullet in his right hand, then appears to be putting it in his mouth
;D
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Thank you Thumb1:
You are welcome. Ask any doctor.
I showed it to 3 medical doctors, and asked if a bullet could fall out of a wound that deep.
Two of them said it was unlikely, the third said it was impossible.
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2) CE 567 AND CE 569 are not small fragments. Those were the only two sizable fragments recovered in the limo. One struck the windshield. The other struck the chrome piece.
How would you know that?
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No, it isn't. The impact moment has happened earlier. Before he comes into sight. Hinrichs cheated by not including the earlier frames where Kennedy's hands are shown to be already rising as he reappears from behind the sign.
Is that supposed to prove that he was hit by a bullet?
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[Referring to the animation in 'Reply #24'] It is impossible to know whether Kennedy's right hand is rising or falling as it emerges from behind the Stemmons sign. As he goes behind the sign he is in the process of lowering his hand after waving so the probability is that his right hand is actually on the way down. There are many times where Kennedy's right hand is in exactly this position during the motorcade as demonstrated by the still photo in Reply #24. The bottom line is that you don't have the slightest clue what's happening with Kennedy's right hand as he emerges from behind the sign.
As for his left hand rising in earlier frames - that is 100% not true. It is not shown in Zapruder at all. Around z175 Kennedy's right arm is leaning over the side of the limo, his right hand clasping his left. He begins to wave with his right hand and his left stays resting on his stomach area until z225. Kennedy's hand begins to reflexively snap shut in this same frame and is fully closed in z226. Importantly, it is this frame where we see Kennedy's left elbow come up as he reacts to being shot.
He's Superman and catches the supersonic bullet in his right hand, then appears to be putting it in his mouth
;D
My point is that Hinrichs has avoided the prior frames that show Kennedy already reacting. Furthermore, how the fck would anyone be able to get his hands up that fast. It looks like Herr Hinrichs is attempting to depict that the missile would have hit Kennedy in the hands... maybe in support of a frontal throat shot.
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Is that supposed to prove that he was hit by a bullet?
No. It proves that Hinrichs avoided prior frames that show Kennedy reacting to an exterior stimuli earlier than he (Hinrichs) is claiming.
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My point is that Hinrichs has avoided the prior frames that show Kennedy already reacting.
Which prior frames?
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No. It proves that Hinrichs avoided prior frames that show Kennedy reacting to an exterior stimuli earlier than he (Hinrichs) is claiming.
Just because you think they "show Kennedy reacting to an exterior stimuli" doesn't mean that he was -- or that Hinrichs "avoided" anything.
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Which prior frames?
From 224, just as Kennedy emerges from behind the sign
Hinrichs starts at 228
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I get it. Hinrichs is assuming JFK was shot through the neck after which he was shot in the back. Instead of a through-and-through shot he thinks there's a bullet still in his neck and a bullet stuck in his back. None of which turned up in the autopsy.
Painful :'(
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Does he also think Connally was shot in the back then shot in the front then shot in the wrist then shot in the leg?
8)
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Just because you think they "show Kennedy reacting to an exterior stimuli" doesn't mean that he was -- or that Hinrichs "avoided" anything.
I get it: Kennedy had car sickness and was barfing. And thanks, once again, for your always-useful input.
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I get it. Hinrichs is assuming JFK was shot through the neck after which he was shot in the back. Instead of a through-and-through shot he thinks there's a bullet still in his neck and a bullet stuck in his back. None of which turned up in the autopsy.
Painful :'(
Thanks so much for your always-useful input
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I get it. Hinrichs is assuming JFK was shot through the neck after which he was shot in the back. Instead of a through-and-through shot he thinks there's a bullet still in his neck and a bullet stuck in his back. None of which turned up in the autopsy.
Painful :'(
Thanks so much for your always-useful input
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I get it: Kennedy had car sickness and was barfing. And thanks, once again, for your always-useful input.
Your self-congratulatory "clever" sarcasm, unfortunately, is not evidence for your claims.
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As the bullet passes through JFK it loses momentum. As it crushes Connally's wrist it loses more momentum. As it exits his chest we should expect to see his jacket suddenly bulge forward. The right side of his jacket, not the left.
If only the Zapruder film showed such a thing we'd know exactly when both men were shot. :-[
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Thanks so much for your always-useful input
Chapman is so clueless he doesn't even realize that Dan is agreeing with him!
:D
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JFK and John Connally are shot through with the same bullet in Z224. However, the injuries to Connally's wrist and leg are caused by fragments of bullets from JFK's headshot(s), as is the damage to the interior of the limousine.
The Magic Fragment Theory re-emerges :)
A fragment from the head shot ricochets from the curb strikes James Tague in the cheek...then rebounds smiting Connally in the wrist ;)
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I don't see why Tague can't be hit by a piece of Connally's wrist. :-*
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I don't see why Tague can't be hit by a piece of Connally's wrist. :-*
Tague said he heard another rifle shot after feeling the sting on his cheek.
That rules out debris from the head shot, assuming Z312 - 313 was the last rifle shot.
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As the bullet passes through JFK it loses momentum. As it crushes Connally's wrist it loses more momentum. As it exits his chest we should expect to see his jacket suddenly bulge forward. The right side of his jacket, not the left.
If only the Zapruder film showed such a thing we'd know exactly when both men were shot. :-[
The jacket did bulge out on his right side
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Chapman is so clueless he doesn't even realize that Dan is agreeing with him!
:D
'clueless'
Iacoletti is under the impression that he can bait yours truly.
But nevertheless, one remains unfailingly grateful for his always-useful input.
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I guess we can’t all come up with useful and brilliant observations like “Kennedy was barfing”.
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I guess we can’t all come up with useful and brilliant observations like “Kennedy was barfing”.
Thanks so much for your always-useful input once again. I remain amazed at the level of quality attained.
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Martin Hinrich claims Zap228 as first impact
I'd say before Kennedy reappears from behind the sign:
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4k2TDcy/z223.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbXjR3bg/z224.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdbSb3G3/z225.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJfSsNzZ/z226.png)
Kennedy's hands are already well on the way to his throat
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHtk8Pxq/z227.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdgVgFZh/z228.png)
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Martin Hinrich claims Zap228 as first impact
Wrong. He says that’s when he sees the impact of the back shot.
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Wrong. He says that’s when he sees the impact of the back shot.
impact
[noun]
the striking of one thing against another; forceful contact, collision
Kennedy's hands were already at his throat by z228
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/.highres/backhit.gif)
Kennedy: Faster than a speeding bullet
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If the bullet wounds to JFK's back and throat are to be considered a through-and-through wound then Hinrichs is wrong. If they are separate injuries he might have a point, however, this would require two unaccounted-for bullets lodged in Kennedy's back and throat (I'm assuming they're unaccounted-for as I'm unaware of any such finding)
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Martin Hinrich claims Zap228 as first impact
I'd say before Kennedy reappears from behind the sign:
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4k2TDcy/z223.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbXjR3bg/z224.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdbSb3G3/z225.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJfSsNzZ/z226.png)
Kennedy's hands are already well on the way to his throat
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHtk8Pxq/z227.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdgVgFZh/z228.png)
With there being an ongoing controversy regarding whether a bullet/fragment struck JFK in the (R) Wrist/Sleeve/Cuff area, gotta wonder what is going on with the Zapruder Film showing JFK's (R) shirt cuff to be a BRIGHT White. JFK wore a somewhat Dull pin stripped dress shirt that day. In comparison, SA Kellerman's dress shirt & the helmet tops of the DPD Motorcycle Cops were indeed Bright White. The bright whiteness of Kellerman's dress shirt and the DPD Motorcycle Cops Helmet Tops matches the Bright White color that Zapruder shows the (R) cuff of JFK to also be. If you look at The Cuban standing in the street in very close proximity to JFK/The Limo, the Light Bluish color of The Cuban's long sleeve shirt CONTRASTS vs the (R) Bright White shirt cuff of JFK. This is ever more Z Film BS:
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With there being an ongoing controversy regarding whether a bullet/fragment struck JFK in the (R) Wrist/Sleeve/Cuff area, gotta wonder what is going on with the Zapruder Film showing JFK's (R) shirt cuff to be a BRIGHT White. JFK wore a somewhat Dull pin stripped dress shirt that day. In comparison, SA Kellerman's dress shirt & the helmet tops of the DPD Motorcycle Cops were indeed Bright White. The bright whiteness of Kellerman's dress shirt and the DPD Motorcycle Cops Helmet Tops matches the Bright White color that Zapruder shows the (R) cuff of JFK to also be. If you look at The Cuban standing in the street in very close proximity to JFK/The Limo, the Light Bluish color of The Cuban's long sleeve shirt CONTRASTS vs the (R) Bright White shirt cuff of JFK. This is ever more Z Film BS:
The bright white 'blob' directly next to JFK is the sun reflecting off the seat. The seat is a lot darker than JFK's cuff yet it appears bright white. Not sure what point your making and how that brings the Zfilm's authenticity into question.
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The bright white 'blob' directly next to JFK is the sun reflecting off the seat. The seat is a lot darker than JFK's cuff yet it appears bright white. Not sure what point your making and how that brings the Zfilm's authenticity into question.
Not sure if what You are referencing is actually the Back Rest of Connally's Jump Seat. Maybe Sunlight directly striking a Slick Jet Black colored surface would do this? The sunlight did Not do likewise with the BLUISH shirt sleeve worn by The Cuban, or the clothing of other eyewitnesses standing along Elm St. That dullish pinstripe shirt of JFK is lighting up like a Vegas Slot Machine.
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With there being an ongoing controversy regarding whether a bullet/fragment struck JFK in the (R) Wrist/Sleeve/Cuff area, gotta wonder what is going on with the Zapruder Film showing JFK's (R) shirt cuff to be a BRIGHT White. JFK wore a somewhat Dull pin stripped dress shirt that day. In comparison, SA Kellerman's dress shirt & the helmet tops of the DPD Motorcycle Cops were indeed Bright White. The bright whiteness of Kellerman's dress shirt and the DPD Motorcycle Cops Helmet Tops matches the Bright White color that Zapruder shows the (R) cuff of JFK to also be. If you look at The Cuban standing in the street in very close proximity to JFK/The Limo, the Light Bluish color of The Cuban's long sleeve shirt CONTRASTS vs the (R) Bright White shirt cuff of JFK. This is ever more Z Film BS:
::)
Sigh. Again with the whataboutisms.
My post, however, directly addresses the Hinrich claim of a z228 impact point.
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impact
[noun]
the striking of one thing against another; forceful contact, collision
Kennedy's hands were already at his throat by z228
So what?
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So what?
Hinrich is wrong is what
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/.highres/backhit.gif)
Kennedy: Faster than a speeding bullet
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Hinrich is wrong is what
Why? Because the same bullet strike must account for both reactions? Sounds circular.
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Why? Because the same bullet strike must account for both reactions? Sounds circular.
Iacoletti,
Which one of the ten or so bullets that struck JFK in the evil, evil, evil CIA's triangulated fusillade do you think caused him to raise his elbows like that?
-- MWT ;)
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Why? Because the same bullet strike must account for both reactions? Sounds circular.
Hinrich has presented z228 in absence of the immediately preceding frames. Thus a claim of a z288 second reaction should at least raise one's eyebrows somewhat.
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You didn’t raise your eyebrows, you called him wrong. He showed where he saw a back impact. You’re pointing out a raising of his hands towards his throat. Two different observations.
P.S. it’s Hinrichs
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You didn’t raise your eyebrows, you called him wrong. He showed where he saw a back impact. You’re pointing out a raising of his hands towards his throat. Two different observations.
P.S. it’s Hinrichs
Stop trying to mangle what I said
I indeed called him wrong. And I raised my eyebrows when I saw that he didn't include the immediate preceding frames which indicate hands rising before z228. And suggested eyebrows should at least be raised at his obvious attempt to mislead.
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There’s no attempt to mislead. He didn’t say that was Kennedy’s first and only reaction to anything. You’re just injecting your own assumptions onto him.
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There’s no attempt to mislead. He didn’t say that was Kennedy’s first and only reaction to anything. You’re just injecting your own assumptions onto him.
Iacoletti,
How do you know for sure that there was no attempt to mislead? Can you read minds?
-- MWT ;)
PS At which Z-frame do YOU think JFK probably started "raising his hands towards his neck"?
No opinion?
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How did those fragments get past Connally's torso and whatever happened to them? The size of the wounds rule out them being caused by small fragments. What happened to the bullet that entered his back and exited his chest?
C399 exited JFK's throat undamaged after passing through his coat, shirt and flesh, and then penetrated Connally's back at high speed, smashed a rib, exited his chest, smashed his right wrist, and embedded itself shallowly in his thigh, correct?
Not at all implausible for a round-nosed, full-metal-jacket 6.5 mm bullet bullet travelling about 2000 feet per second when it struck JFK.
-- MWT ;)
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C399 exited JFK's throat undamaged after passing through his coat, shirt and flesh, and then penetrated Connally's back at high speed, smashed a rib, exited his chest, smashed his right wrist, and embedded itself shallowly in his thigh, correct?
Not at all implausible for a round-nosed, full-metal-jacket 6.5 mm bullet bullet travelling about 2000 feet per second when it struck JFK.
-- MWT ;)
Ce399 glanced off Mazeroski's glove at second, scoring Berra from third and Mantle from first when Clemente overthrew home plate.
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Iacoletti,
How do you know for sure that there was no attempt to mislead? Can you read minds?
-- MWT ;)
PS At which Z-frame do YOU think JFK probably started "raising his hands towards his neck"?
No opinion?
He's just asking questions ;)
Do you know if Hinrich Hinrichs is a proponent of a frontal throat wound?
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There’s no attempt to mislead. He didn’t say that was Kennedy’s first and only reaction to anything. You’re just injecting your own assumptions onto him.
Your man's motivations are clear. No assumptions needed. Btw, isn't he writing some sort of 'magnum opus' about the assassination? Well, eschewing the laws of science will raise laughter faster than anybody's hands, superhuman or not.
To wit: Kennedy's hands are already at his throat by z228, the frame that Hinrich Hinrichs claims impact. This is a bullet travelling at supersonic speed: Tell us how Kennedy would be fast enough to get his hands up to his throat at z228.
Oh, wait... you're just asking questions, right?
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Ce399 glanced off Mazeroski's glove at second, scoring Berra from third and Mantle from first when Clemente overthrew home plate.
Thanks again for your profoundly wise and relevant input.
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Your man's motivations are clear. No assumptions needed.
You provide nothing but assumptions, unsubstantiated claims, and irrelevancies.
Btw, isn't he writing some sort of 'magnum opus' about the assassination?
I have no idea what you’re talking about, and I doubt you do either.
To wit: Kennedy's hands are already at his throat by z228, the frame that Hinrich Hinrichs claims impact. This is a bullet travelling at supersonic speed: Tell us how Kennedy would be fast enough to get his hands up to his throat at z228.
Tell us why you keep trying to associate both actions with the same stimulus.
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Along these lines, have you guys noticed that Tink Thompson has a New Book, "Last Second In Dallas" coming out Nov 13? He continues proffering his crossfire scenario and attacks the Bullet Fragments retrieved from inside the JFK Limo being ALL fired from the Carcano. Looks good with New Info/Postulations from Thompson.
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You provide nothing but assumptions, unsubstantiated claims, and irrelevancies.
I have no idea what you’re talking about, and I doubt you do either.
Tell us why you keep trying to associate both actions with the same stimulus.
1) Kennedy's sudden quick reaction as he reappears from behind the sign (that eventually brings his hands to his throat) are neither assumptions, unsubstantiated claims, nor irrelevant to my questioning Hinrich's claim of a z228 impact.
2) You missed my question mark.
3) What 'both actions'? Hinrich's gif utilizing several frames starting at z228 which toggle back-and forth shows nothing of a second stimulus.
Tell us why you are insisting on a second stimulus. Better still, show us where in the film.
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1) Kennedy's sudden quick reaction as he reappears from behind the sign (that eventually brings his hands to his throat) are neither assumptions, unsubstantiated claims, nor irrelevant to my questioning Hinrich's claim of a z228 impact.
2) You missed my question mark.
3) What 'both actions'? Hinrich's gif utilizing several frames starting at z228 which toggle back-and forth shows nothing of a second stimulus.
Tell us why you are insisting on a second stimulus. Better still, show us where in the film.
Bill,
I'm afraid you're wasting your time trying to reason with John.
In my experience, it's impossible to prove to him, minus ten film clips showing the same event from different perspectives, eighteen photographs, eight notarized statements (in triplicate), and five authenticated DNA test results, anything he rationally (or otherwise) fears might implicate his hero, self-proclaimed Marxist Lee Harvey Oswald, or, conversely, exonerate the evil, evil, evil "Military Industrial Intelligence Community Complex" (which many brainwashed Americans, to Vladimir Putin's glee, nowaday call "The Deep State").
-- MWT ;)
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JFK raises his fists to his throat as a reaction to a stimulus, then raises one elbow as a reaction to another stimulus, then raises the other elbow as a reaction to another stimulus then coughs up a furball as a ...you get the picture. Hinrichs has isolated one aspect of a complex reaction and assigned it special significance (in my opinion). There is no need to view JFK's various movements as anything other than a single complex of movements to a single, traumatic stimulus (as far as I'm concerned)
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1) Kennedy's sudden quick reaction as he reappears from behind the sign (that eventually brings his hands to his throat) are neither assumptions, unsubstantiated claims, nor irrelevant to my questioning Hinrich's claim of a z228 impact.
They most certainly are. What may or may not have occurred previously is irrelevant to Hinrich’s view of a Z228 impact.
Tell us why you are insisting on a second stimulus. Better still, show us where in the film.
I’m not insisting anything. You’re the one trying to cram all of the reactions into a single shot. Martin’s view is that z228 shows Kennedy reacting from a back impact. You call this “dishonest” because he didn’t mention something different that you noticed happening earlier.
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If the bullet wounds to JFK's back and throat are to be considered a through-and-through wound then Hinrichs is wrong. If they are separate injuries he might have a point, however, this would require two unaccounted-for bullets lodged in Kennedy's back and throat (I'm assuming they're unaccounted-for as I'm unaware of any such finding)
Anything inside the neck/back area was Quickly retrieved at the "Pre" Autopsy. This is why when Humes was questioned under OATH numerous times by the WC and HSCA regarding a Start Time, he Always SPECIFIED "Autopsy". Sgt Boyajian DOCUMENTED the early arrival of JFK at Bethesda via his Official Arrival Document written on onion paper which was unearthed by the ARRB. An aging Humes when intensely questioned by the ARRB's Jeremy Gunn also Documented the Early Arrival of the JFK Body. A "Pre"Autopsy having been conducted on the body of JFK is why Humes gasped, "Surgery to the head area" when he viewed JFK's body after it was removed from the casket. Humes knew!
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They most certainly are. What may or may not have occurred previously is irrelevant to Hinrich’s view of a Z228 impact.
I’m not insisting anything. You’re the one trying to cram all of the reactions into a single shot. Martin’s view is that z228 shows Kennedy reacting from a back impact. You call this “dishonest” because he didn’t mention something different that you noticed happening earlier.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jS1dwCDc/JBC-JFK-REACT.gif)
Exactly what movement indicates to you that an
impact occurs at z228? I see a constant, even,
unbroken motion of JFK's hands continuing to rise
to the throat from the earlier z223 frame, along
with the upper-body continued forward movement
exhibiting no further sudden, quick reaction.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/.highres/backhit.gif)
Bypassing the sudden, quick reaction seen
when JFK reappears from behind the sign
is an obvious attempt to mislead. Hinrichs is
attempting to make z228 appear to be the
starting point for a separate impact.
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Nice work Bill.
Two things seem really clear from the clip - JFK's reaction to being shot is a single, fluid, complex of movements. Hinrichs has taken one small element of that complex and assigned it a specific meaning that it doesn't have when viewed as a whole. The other thing, which could hardly be more obvious, is that both men are shot through at the same time. For me it's as obvious as JFK's "back and to the left" head snap. I would imagine anyone already committed to the idea they are not shot at the same time must struggle to some small degree watching the clip above.
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No "struggle" at all. Connally is Not Hit when JFK is. The images of Connally Firmly griping his Stetson along with Connally's own statements regarding his turning to his (R) to see what the Hub-Bub was in the back seat behind him also makes this clear.
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Exactly what movement indicates to you that an impact occurs at z228?
I don't pretend to speak for Martin Hinrichs.
But my guess is that he's talking about the sudden lurch forward between about Z231 and Z235.
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Nice work Bill.
Two things seem really clear from the clip - JFK's reaction to being shot is a single, fluid, complex of movements
People always think that their own biased interpretations are "really clear".
The other thing, which could hardly be more obvious, is that both men are shot through at the same time. For me it's as obvious as JFK's "back and to the left" head snap.
Of course it is.
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People always think that their own biased interpretations are "really clear".
My interpretation isn't biased in any way. It honestly reflects what I see. Just because it doesn't agree with your interpretation doesn't make it biased. When I look at the following clip I can't escape my natural and honest opinion that both men are shot through at the same time. Some observations by Brian Rochelle on another thread have strengthened this opinion.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9X1CGQpN/JFK-JBC-react-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
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My interpretation isn't biased in any way. It honestly reflects what I see. Just because it doesn't agree with your interpretation doesn't make it biased. When I look at the following clip I can't escape my natural and honest opinion that both men are shot through at the same time. Some observations by Brian Rochelle on another thread have strengthened this opinion.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9X1CGQpN/JFK-JBC-react-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
So tell me again how Connally is managing to hang onto that Stetson Hat with a Shattered Arm, Busted Ribs, and Punctured Lung?
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(https://i.postimg.cc/9X1CGQpN/JFK-JBC-react-2.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
How is Jackies hat staying on her head?
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So tell me again how Connally is managing to hang onto that Stetson Hat with a Shattered Arm, Busted Ribs, and Punctured Lung?
Right at the beginning of the sequence it is possible to see JBC's shirt cuff just above the top of the door. It instantly disappears as the bullet impacts his wrist. His hand then rebounds up slightly. The force of the impact pulls his right shoulder forward and down. Towards the end of the sequence JBC's hand is in a really weird position, the wrist is offering no more support and the hand seems completely bent over. He couldn't let go of his Stetson if he wanted to and it is reported he is still gripping it when he gets to Parkland.That's what I'm seeing with a couple of assumptions thrown in.
Credit to Brian Rochelle for pointing most of this out.
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Right at the beginning of the sequence it is possible to see JBC's shirt cuff just above the top of the door. It instantly disappears as the bullet impacts his wrist. His hand then rebounds up slightly. The force of the impact pulls his right shoulder forward and down. Towards the end of the sequence JBC's hand is in a really weird position, the wrist is offering no more support and the hand seems completely bent over. He couldn't let go of his Stetson if he wanted to and it is reported he is still gripping it when he gets to Parkland.That's what I'm seeing with a couple of assumptions thrown in.
Credit to Brian Rochelle for pointing most of this out.
Have Never heard that Connally was hanging onto the Stetson as they wheeled him into Parkland. This sounds like another JFK Urban Legend rather than being FACT. If you know of a source for this tale please post it.
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It could well be an JFK urban legend Royell, it's just something I'd come across a couple of times and shouldn't have used as I don't have the source.
What did you think about the observations concerning the Zfilm clip, which is what the post was actually about?
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It could well be an JFK urban legend Royell, it's just something I'd come across a couple of times and shouldn't have used as I don't have the source.
What did you think about the observations concerning the Zfilm clip, which is what the post was actually about?
TM: And you're covering your husband at this time.
Nellie: And he also, he has... he has... his hat in his
hand. He always had that hat somewhere. He had the hat in
his hand when I pulled him over and crouched him down and
he was holding that hat up against him. He closed up that
wound that would've killed him before we got to the hospital.
https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/nellie.txt
JohnM
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So tell me again how Connally is managing to hang onto that Stetson Hat with a Shattered Arm, Busted Ribs, and Punctured Lung?
What makes you think the wounds would necessarily cause JBC to let go of his Stetson, rather then clench it?
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TM: And you're covering your husband at this time.
Nellie: And he also, he has... he has... his hat in his
hand. He always had that hat somewhere. He had the hat in
his hand when I pulled him over and crouched him down and
he was holding that hat up against him. He closed up that
wound that would've killed him before we got to the hospital.
https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/nellie.txt
JohnM
Yeah, the above is while Connally was INSIDE THE JFK LIMO. Not Connally & the hat while being wheeled into Parkland and NOT Connally having a Death Grip on the Stetson. We see Connally inside the Limo actually Holding/Griping the Stetson amidst turning to his Right while JFK Is going through his throat clutching movements.
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I don't pretend to speak for Martin Hinrichs.
But my guess is that he's talking about the sudden lurch forward between about Z231 and Z235.
'sudden lurch'
Before you go all Addams Family, point out where
there is any evidence of 'sudden' at z228 & beyond:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jS1dwCDc/JBC-JFK-REACT.gif)
Kennedy is movin' & shakin' from the get-go,
hunching 'n bunching through-and-through your
precious z228
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point out where there is any evidence of 'sudden' at z228 & beyond:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/.highres/backhit.gif)
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/.highres/backhit.gif)
Cheated
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Cheated
It's obvious to me that JFK had already been struck by Z228.
Unless, of course, he was in the process of loosening his tie, or something.
-- MWT ;)
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Yeah, the above is while Connally was INSIDE THE JFK LIMO. Not Connally & the hat while being wheeled into Parkland and NOT Connally having a Death Grip on the Stetson. We see Connally inside the Limo actually Holding/Griping the Stetson amidst turning to his Right while JFK Is going through his throat clutching movements.
Just out of interest, when do you think he was shot in the wrist because he's still gripping his Stetson after JFK's head-shot?
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It's obvious to me that JFK had already been struck by Z228.
Unless, of course, he was in the process of loosening his tie, or something.
-- MWT ;)
'Unless, of course, he was in the process of loosening his tie, or something'
Difficult, since there was a piece missing ;)
Thomas, I opened the original vid in QuickTime 10 on my iMac desktop. Note the timeline bar which appears. Using my cursor while selecting the small vertical bar, I was able to toggle the video back-and-forth from slo-mo to medium to high speed and everywhere in between.
My conclusion: Martin Hinrichs is a naughty boy.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CK7N2BNQ/JFK-react-003.png)
I suggest that interested parties try this for themselves..
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Just out of interest, when do you think he was shot in the wrist because he's still gripping his Stetson after JFK's head-shot?
There's a Difference between Connally actually "Gripping" the Stetson with his fingers vs Pressing the Stetson against his chest as his wife described. Josiah "Tink" Thompson has a follow-up to his Blockbuster "Six Seconds In Dallas" coming out in Nov. "Last Second In Dallas" will address all of the issues You are raising, including questionable bullet Fragments recovered inside the JFK Limo. Kindly hold your horses. Thompson has a track record of being extremely thorough. He's a rare breed as he is an Old Guard JFK Assassination Researcher you can actually rely on to Cross The T's etc.
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My conclusion: Martin Hinrichs is a naughty boy.
I'm sure he will find your assessment absolutely devastating.
:D
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I'm sure he will find your assessment absolutely devastating.
:D
Iacoletti,
As most of us find your "rebuttals" on this forum.
-- MWT ;)
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I'm sure he will find your assessment absolutely devastating.
:D
Still dodging, I see. Naughty, naughty. Now, would you like some fries with your latest nothing-burger?
And no need to attempt a devastation. It's more fun watching a CT self-destruction aided by a quick, easy demonstration and readily available to all comers for their own hands-on study.
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'Unless, of course, he was in the process of loosening his tie, or something'
Difficult, since there was a piece missing ;)
Thomas, I opened the original vid in QuickTime 10 on my iMac desktop. Note the timeline bar which appears. Using my cursor while selecting the small vertical bar, I was able to toggle the video back-and-forth from slo-mo to medium to high speed and everywhere in between.
My conclusion: Martin Hinrichs is a naughty boy.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CK7N2BNQ/JFK-react-003.png)
I suggest that interested parties try this for themselves..
I recall reading somewhere that Martin Hinrichs disowned that. He no longer believes that it shows Kennedy being hit in the back.
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I recall reading somewhere that Martin Hinrichs disowned that. He no longer believes that it shows Kennedy being hit in the back.
Thanks, Tim.
I guess you're saying the dirty rascal manipulated the version he posted to make it look as though JFK started lurching forward at Z228, and therefore JFK and Connally must have been hit by two different bullets fired almost simultaneously, or something like that.
I wish the Zapruder footage on the Internet was clearer so we could see whether or not John Connally is looking sharply to his right at Z133-Z134, etc.
He said he turned to his right like that when he heard the first of three shots ring out "right after completing the turn," or words to that effect.
But, maybe no Internet copy is clear enough to show it (if he indeed did it).
-- MWT ;)
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Still dodging, I see.
"Dodging" what? Your declaration that something else is happening? Your inflated sense of self-worth?
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"Dodging" what? Your declaration that something else is happening? Your inflated sense of self-worth?
Park you ego at the curb for once. And no self-inflation needed: Only a sincere interest in flushing out CTBS.
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I recall reading somewhere that Martin Hinrichs disowned that. He no longer believes that it shows Kennedy being hit in the back.
At all, or just z229?
I recently saw a Hinrichs post (posted in 2010 or so) in which he praises some guy named Vallee about some Umbrella Man thing. Maybe that's his thing now.
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DIRECT IMPULSE EFFECT OF
PROJECTILE-TARGET COLLISION
------------------------------------
Excerpt: 'In the Zapruder Film President Kennedy is seen to react to three separate gunshots, the first missing him and the limo [6], [16], [4], [17], the next two hitting him with increasing accuracy. Further discussion of the first two shots is beyond the scope of this paper other than to note that all three gunshots had associated 1–2 frame anomalous movements, and a outward impulse is observed on the jacket lapel of Texas Governor John Connally [...] at the same time the President begins showing signs of being injured [12], [6], [7], but no other discernable impulses are otherwise seen on either of the two men* (prior to the third shot)'
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844017331882
*The 'whoosh' you just heard was the Hinrichs z229 COI flying out the window to the scrap-heap of CTer failed pet theories
----------------------------------------------------
Tools are readily available to all comers wishing
to test the Hinrichs z229 COI for themselves:
-----------------------------------------------------
Windows
https://win10.software/download-quicktime-player/
(Go here before d/l any software from the above site
https://www.scamvoid.net/check/win10.software/)
Mac
QuickTime Reader 10 comes with OS X installers
QuickTime Pro 7.6.6 is available for vintage software
(https://i.postimg.cc/CK7N2BNQ/JFK-react-003.png)
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Direct impulse effect of projectile-target collision
In the Zapruder Film President Kennedy is seen to react to three separate gunshots, the first missing him and the limo [6], [16], [4], [17], the next two hitting him with increasing accuracy. Further discussion of the first two shots is beyond the scope of this paper other than to note that all three gunshots had associated 1–2 frame anomalous movements, and a outward impulse is observed on the jacket lapel of Texas Governor John Connally [...] at the same time the President begins showing signs of being injured [12], [6], [7], but no other discernable impulses are otherwise seen on either of the two men (prior to the third shot).
-
------------------------------------------
Tools are freely available to all comers
wishing to test the z229 COI:
Windows
https://win10.software/download-quicktime-player/
(Go here before d/l: https://www.scamvoid.net/check/win10.software/)
Mac
QuickTime Reader 10 comes with OS X installers
QuickTime Pro 7.6.6 is available for vintage systems
(https://i.postimg.cc/CK7N2BNQ/JFK-react-003.png)
Dear William,
I, like Max Holland, believe the missed shot was the first of three shots, and that it occurred about 1.4 seconds before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.
-- MWT ;)
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The Max Holland stuff about shot #1 deflecting off the signal light and then ricocheting down to the curb where Teague was struck is pure Bunk. The Distance between that signal light and the curb near Teague is roughly a Football Field. There is absolutely NO Physical Evidence or Eyewitness Accounts to corroborate Holland's Theory. NONE!