JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Joe Elliott on June 22, 2020, 04:24:52 PM
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A Question About Dr. Robert Zacharko.
Back in 1999, Michael Griffith, who recently rejoined this forum, sent an email to a Dr. Robert Zacharko, asking if the movements of JFK’s body just after the head shot of z-312, could be the result of the bullet passing through the brain. Dr. Zacharko responded with the surprising answer of “No”, even though there is a video of a goat which was shot through the head which causes its body to move pretty forcibly.
Questions:
1. Did Michael Griffith mention to Dr. Robert Zacharko the film of the goat being shot through the head?
2. Did Michael Griffith direct Dr. Robert Zacharko to a publication or website where he could see the film, or at least still frames from the film?
3. Did Dr. Robert Zacharko actually ever observe an animal being shot through the brain or observe a film of such an event?
4. Did Michael Griffith withhold from Dr. Robert Zacharko existence of a film of a goat being shot through the head because he feared he would not get a favorable opinion from him?
If Dr. Robert Zacharko’s opinion was not based on real world observations, however knowledgeable he may otherwise be, but only on armchair reasoning, then I would say his opinion was worthless.
These questions are pertinent because, as far as I know, no other medical expert has ever said that JFK’s movements during z313-z318 could not be the result of a neuromuscular spasm caused by a bullet passing through the brain. I wonder if the key to finding a medical expert with such an opinion is to find one who never saw a film of an animal being shot through the brain.
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I'm sorry, but I just have a hard time taking this line of questioning seriously. No neuro-muscular reaction is going to rocket a head backward in a fraction of a second when the head is moving rapidly forward. That is just nonsense.
Itek noted that from Z312-313 "the President's head is subjected to a large acceleration forward." Itek calculated that Kennedy's head is knocked forward 2.3 inches and his right shoulder about 1.1 inches from Z312-313. But, amazingly, in the very next frame, Z314, the head is suddenly moving backward.
Leaving aside the impossible reversal speed and impossible physics, there is also the fact that some of the brain needed for a neuro-muscular reaction was blasted out.
Finally, as for the goat video, did you even view the video before citing it? The goat's head barely moves at all in the video. The head is being held in place, but there is no sign that the head even tries to move. And the head shot to the goat obviously does not cause the explosion that occurred on JFK's head when the bullet struck it.
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I'm sorry, but I just have a hard time taking this line of questioning seriously. No neuro-muscular reaction is going to rocket a head backward in a fraction of a second when the head is moving rapidly forward. That is just nonsense.
The neuro-muscular reaction didn’t push the head forward. The head was pushed forward about 2 inches, from z-312 to z-313, by the bullet that struck from behind. One frame later, roughly 55 milliseconds later, the neuro-muscular reaction started to push the head backwards, gradually building up speed though z-317. A bullet from the front would not cause such a gradual acceleration. Only a neuro-muscular reaction could do that.
Oh, and by the way, the limousine did accelerate during that time, but the acceleration was only one tenth as much as the acceleration of the head backward, so it wasn’t the limousine changing speed that accounts for this gradual acceleration of the head backwards.
What could account for that gradual acceleration other than the neuro-muscular reaction. A stream of bullet from the front, strike the head with each Zapruder frame?
Itek noted that from Z312-313 "the President's head is subjected to a large acceleration forward." Itek calculated that Kennedy's head is knocked forward 2.3 inches and his right shoulder about 1.1 inches from Z312-313. But, amazingly, in the very next frame, Z314, the head is suddenly moving backward.
Not amazing. The Goat starts moving its body 40 milliseconds after the bullet struck. So, the very next frame, roughly 55 milliseconds later, JFK’s head starts moving as well.
Leaving aside the impossible reversal speed and impossible physics, there is also the fact that some of the brain needed for a neuro-muscular reaction was blasted out.
Did Dr. Zacharko say that? Has any doctor said that? Actually, it doesn’t matter what part of the brain gets blasted out, as it didn’t matter with the goat. The brain doesn’t get the commands but instead it is generated when the spinal cord is stretched.
Finally, as for the goat video, did you even view the video before citing it? The goat's head barely moves at all in the video. The head is being held in place, but there is no sign that the head even tries to move. And the head shot to the goat obviously does not cause the explosion that occurred on JFK's head when the bullet struck it.
I have seen the goat video many times.
The goat’s head did not move because it was impossible. The goat’s head was locked into place so the goat could remain standing while unconscious from drugs before it was shot. That is why the head is still high in the air while the rest of the body was collapsed at the end of the video. If JFK’s head was locked into place with metal clamps, his head wouldn’t have moved either.
But yes, I think this test could be redone, this time with the goat conscious and its whole body free to move. Thousands of animals are slaughtered each year so I think this could be done and is a pretty humane death. I do not have a rifle, a film camera or even a goat for repeating this experiment. But I think it should be done.
Questions:
But the questions I’m most interested in are:
1. Why isn’t your communication with Dr. Zacharko on your JFK assassination website? Did he ask you to not display it anymore?
2. Did you alert Dr. Zacharko to the existence of this video showing the goat being shot through the brain? Or did you decide to keep it a secret from him, for fear that if he knows about it, he wouldn’t give a favorable opinion?
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The neuro-muscular reaction didn’t push the head forward. The head was pushed forward about 2 inches, from z-312 to z-313, by the bullet that struck from behind. One frame later, roughly 55 milliseconds later, the neuro-muscular reaction started to push the head backwards, gradually building up speed though z-317. A bullet from the front would not cause such a gradual acceleration. Only a neuro-muscular reaction could do that.
I think this is fairy tale material. Several other scholars have debunked the neuro-muscular reaction theory as an explanation for the backward head snap. So I won't reinvent the wheel here (more on this below).
Oh, and by the way, the limousine did accelerate during that time, but the acceleration was only one tenth as much as the acceleration of the head backward, so it wasn’t the limousine changing speed that accounts for this gradual acceleration of the head backwards.
Again, no neuro-muscular reaction is going to reverse the rapid forward movement of a head in a split-second amount of time. Even some lone-gunman theorists have ditched this theory and have posited a "jet effect," which is even more problematic.
What could account for that gradual acceleration other than the neuro-muscular reaction. A stream of bullet from the front, strike the head with each Zapruder frame?
"Gradual acceleration"?! Really? Are we talking about the same film? There is nothing "gradual" about it: it is violent and rapid, unless you watch the film in super slow motion.
Not amazing. The Goat starts moving its body 40 milliseconds after the bullet struck. So, the very next frame, roughly 55 milliseconds later, JFK’s head starts moving as well.
But we're not talking about the body, and Kennedy's body shows no such reaction anyway. We're talking about the head. Although the goat's head is being held in place, there is not so much as an inkling that its head attempts to move, and there is no explosion from the bullet's impact, which suggests they used the wrong kind of ammo.
There's also the fact, pointed out by Dr. Joe Riley, that the neurobiology and neurophysics of a goat are completely different from those of a human.
Did Dr. Zacharko say that? Has any doctor said that? Actually, it doesn’t matter what part of the brain gets blasted out, as it didn’t matter with the goat. The brain doesn’t get the commands but instead it is generated when the spinal cord is stretched.
I have seen the goat video many times.
The goat’s head did not move because it was impossible. The goat’s head was locked into place so the goat could remain standing while unconscious from drugs before it was shot. That is why the head is still high in the air while the rest of the body was collapsed at the end of the video. If JFK’s head was locked into place with metal clamps, his head wouldn’t have moved either.
But you would be able to see the head try to move. You would see skin and muscle flex/shift as the head attempted to respond to the force of the impact, and we see no such activity in the goat video.
But yes, I think this test could be redone, this time with the goat conscious and its whole body free to move. Thousands of animals are slaughtered each year so I think this could be done and is a pretty humane death. I do not have a rifle, a film camera or even a goat for repeating this experiment. But I think it should be done.
Yeah, and they could start by using the right kind of ammunition. The cloud of fragments toward of the front of JFK's skull indicates that is where the bullet impacted and then shattered. Even Sturdivan admitted that if the head were struck in the right front, you would expect to see a cloud of fragments in the right-front part of the head.
We know that the bullet that struck the back of the skull could not have been the type of bullet that Oswald allegedly used. The entry hole was only 6 mm. Oswald's alleged ammo was 6.5 mm. Bullets always make entry points that are slightly larger than their own size--this is just physics, not to mention common sense. This was one of the things that alerted Howard Donahue that the Warren Commission's claims about the rear head entry wound were impossible.
Here is the entirety of my correspondence with Dr. Zacharko:
I asked Dr. Robert Zacharko, a neuroscientist at Carleton University in
Canada, about the theory that JFK's backward head snap was caused by a
neuromuscular reaction. I wrote to him as follows:
In frames 312-313 of the Zapruder film, we see Kennedy's head knocked
forward, but then, suddenly, beginning in frame 314, we see his head and
upper body jolted violently backward and to the left as the right frontal
area of his skull explodes. One theory says that this violent backward
motion was the result of a neuromuscular reaction. This reaction would
have had to occur in no more than 56 milliseconds. I have two questions
about this theory:
1. Some object to this theory on the basis that the reaction could not
have occurred so quickly. They point out that the fastest involuntary
reaction known to man is the eye blink, which takes about 40
milliseconds. They argue that this indicates that the backward head snap
would have taken longer to occur, since it involved much more mass. One
author phrases this objection as follows:
. . . it [the head] is suddenly driven forward between frames 312
and 313. Amazingly, in the very next frame, 314, it is already
moving backward, a movement it continues in succeeding frames until
the President's shoulders strike the seat cushion at Z321. . . .
The extremely small time factor combined with the relatively
large mass of the President's head would tend to rule out
such an explanation [i.e., the neuromuscular-reaction theory].
The fastest reflex reaction known to science--the startle
response--takes place over an interval of 40 to 200
milliseconds. Beginning with an eyeblink in 40 milliseconds,
the response wave moves the head forward in 83 milliseconds,
and then continues downward reaching the knees in 200 milliseconds.
The change in direction we observe [in the head snap] occurs in 56
milliseconds (1/18th/second), and involves not the negligible mass
of an eyelid but the considerable mass of a human head
moving forward with an acceleration of several g's.
What is your opinion on the speed of the alleged neuromuscular reaction?
2. One author has objected to the neuromuscular-reaction theory on the
following basis:
A "massive neuromuscular reaction," according to Messrs. Ford
and Belin, occurs when there is "massive damage inflicted to nerve
centers of the brain." The nerve centers of the brain are the
pons, the medulla, the cerebellum--all located in the rear of the
brain. According to the Warren Commission and the HSCA, the head
shot damaged the right cerebral hemisphere of Kennedy's
brain--not a nerve coordination center, not capable of causing
a "massive neuromuscular reaction."
The neuromuscular reaction that supposedly accounts for
the backward snap of Kennedy's head when struck by a
bullet from behind could happen only if a major coordinating
center of the brain is damaged. According to the x-rays and
autopsy photos that lone-gunman theorists champion as
evidence of a shot from behind, those areas of the brain
are intact.
What is your opinion of this objection to the neuromuscular-reaction
theory?
Dr. Zacharko responded as follows in an e-mail dated 8 February 1999:
If you ask any neuroscientist what a neuromuscular effect is they will
tell you that it refers to some interface of nerve and muscle for
example. In some cases a simple reflex response (e.g., knee jerk for
example). Can certain reflexes be influenced? Certainly. Do head
movements fall into such a category? No. The head movements that you are
referring to are following the laws of physics. With all due respect to
Belin and Ford I would ask what medical references or more precisely what
research references are being using to document arguments of
neuromuscular reactivity. Simply stated there are none. The pons and
medulla contain centres for respiration, cardiovascular regulation,
visceral reactivity and the like. The cerebellum is also present at this
level. Damage to these areas will interrupt respiration and heart rhythm
and affect motor coordination. Neural damage per se associated with
bullet entry will not cause exaggerated head movement of the type you see
in the Zapruder film. In fact there are no brain sites that will. This
neuromuscular reactivity argument is simply nonsense.[Note: One could
make the argument, ludicrous as it may sound, that Kennedy actually saw
the bullet approaching and jerked his head back reflexively to avoid
being hit.]
The second author does not appear to be any more informed than either
Belin or Ford. There is no such thing as a major coordinating centre.
Those arguments were largely discounted in the 1960's. The brain simply
does not act in such a fashion. It is a coordinated system. Actually
there is a system which is referred to as the extrapyramidal motor
system, which runs from the mesencephalon to the forebrain. It controls
voluntary movement. If this system was to discharge, you would effect
gross motor output. Such discharge would typically represent the invasion
of seizure like activity to motor areas. It would not be coordinated and
certainly not of the type evident in the Zapruder film.
The bottom line is that the head movements are reactions to the direction
of bullet entry. They are not the product of central nervous system
damage. It would almost seem that certain myths are maintained in the
absence of documented data. Information from half-sources of
documentation appear to blend with legitimate sources of information to
provide muddled scenarios.
Sincerely,
Dr Robert M. Zacharko
Life Sciences Research Building
Institute of Neuroscience
Carleton University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Ok. You have not answered either question directly, but it is clear from your correspondence that you provided with Dr. Robert Zacharko that you did not inform him of the existence of the goat video.
This is strange, because an expert giving an opinion needs to be made aware of the principle arguments of the other side, be they valid or invalid. Anyone arguing for the neuro-muscular reaction hypothesis will cite the goat video as the principle piece of evidence. Clearly animal muscles can be activated as a result of a bullet passing through the brain. The point could not be made any clearer.
It doesn’t matter that you think the goat video has no relevance. Dr. Zacharko needs to be made aware of this video and decide for himself if it has relevance or not. If he is to give an informed opinion.
So, for Dr. Zacharko to argue against the neuro-muscular reaction hypotheses, he needs to acknowledge that he has seen the principle evidence of the other side and argue either:
1. The muscles of the goat are not activated by the bullet passing through the brain.
This would be an absurd argument.
Or:
2. A neuro-muscular reaction is to be expected in a goat but not in a human.
I doubt a medical doctor would give such an opinion. But if I am wrong, I would like to hear his arguments.
Unfortunately. we never got to hear Dr. Zacharko’s opinion on the relevance of the goat video because you decided to withhold from him the principle piece of evidence cited by LNers. I would suggest that you did so because you feared you would not get a favorable opinion from Dr. Zacharko if he knew of it, but you might if he didn’t.
I only have one simple question that I would like answered.
Question:
1. Does an expert need to know the principle pieces of evidence, cited by both sides, to give an informed opinion on a question of dispute?
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Here is my section on the neuro-muscular reaction and jet-effect theories in my book Hasty Judgment:
Posner attempts to explain why the Zapruder film shows JFK's upper body rocketing backward in reaction to the fatal head shot (6:315-316). Citing the work of Drs. Luis Alvarez and John Lattimer, Posner says the backward snap of Kennedy's upper body resulted, not from a shot from the front, but from a neuromuscular reaction and the so-called "jet effect" after a bullet entered JFK's head from behind.
This is a far cry from the days when Warren Commission member Allen Dulles denied the Zapruder film showed Kennedy moving backward in response to the final shot. Gone, too, are the days when it was proposed that the limousine suddenly lurched forward at the precise moment of the last shot and thus caused the President's fierce backward motion. We can also rest assured that CBS's Dan Rather will never again tell a nationwide audience, as he did the day after the assassination, that in the Zapruder film Kennedy's head is thrust forward by the final shot (although Rather might have been describing a hit on JFK's head that was later almost completely deleted from the Zapruder film--see below).
Now we are told the President was indeed rocketed violently backward but that this movement was caused by a neuromuscular reaction and/or by the jet effect. There are serious problems with these theories. Neither is really credible. One expert told the HSCA that neuromuscular reactions normally do not begin for several minutes after the upper brain centers have been separated from the brain stem and the spinal cord, and such reactions do not resemble Kennedy's response to the fatal head shot. Former Rockefeller Foundation fellow Henry Hurt explained:
By 1975, when a copy of the Zapruder film was shown on national television, the violent rearward head-snap at last had to be given some official explanation. The HSCA addressed the question and heard expert testimony [from one questionable expert] that the motion of Kennedy's body could have been a neurological spasm. According to the Select Committee report, the expert concluded that "nerve damage from a bullet entering the President's head could have caused his back muscles to tighten which, in turn, could have caused his head to move toward the rear." A motion picture was shown of a goat being shot in the head, causing all the goat's muscles to go into a violent, involuntary spasm. Clearly, this does not appear to be what happened to Kennedy, whose whole appears to go limp as he is thrown backward. There is no splaying of his limbs, as in the shooting of the goat. (71:129-130).
Josiah Thompson notes that the neuromuscular-reaction theory conflicts with what is known about human reflex actions:
The extremely small time factor combined with the relatively large mass of the President's head would tend to rule out such an explanation. The fastest reflex action known to science--the startle response--takes place over an interval of 40 to 200 milliseconds. Beginning with an eyeblink in 40 milliseconds, the response wave moves the head forward in 83 milliseconds, and then continues downward reaching the knees in 200 milliseconds. The change in direction we observe [i.e., the change from the forward motion of JFK's head to the more violent rearward motion] occurs in 56 milliseconds (1/18th second), and involves not the negligible mass of an eyelid but the considerable mass of a human head moving forward under an acceleration of several g's. (59:93)
I asked Dr. Robert Zacharko, a neuroscientist at Carleton University in Canada, about the theory that JFK's backward head snap was caused by a neuromuscular reaction. I wrote to Dr. Zacharko as follows:
In frames 312-313 of the Zapruder film, we see Kennedy's head knocked forward, but then, suddenly, beginning in frame 314, we see his head and upper body jolted violently backward and to the left as the right frontal area of his skull explodes. One theory says that this violent backward motion was the result of a neuromuscular reaction. This reaction would have had to occur in no more than 56 milliseconds. I have two questions about this theory:
1. Some object to this theory on the basis that the reaction could not have occurred so quickly. They point out that the fastest involuntary reaction known to man is the eye blink, which takes about 40 milliseconds. They argue that this indicates that the backward head snap would have taken longer to occur, since it involved much more mass. One author phrases this objection as follows:
. . . it [the head] is suddenly driven forward between frames 312 and 313. Amazingly, in the very next frame, 314, it is already moving backward, a movement it continues in succeeding frames until the President's shoulders strike the seat cushion at Z321. . . . The extremely small time factor combined with the relatively large mass of the President's head would tend to rule out such an explanation [i.e., the neuromuscular-reaction theory].
The fastest reflex reaction known to science--the startle response--takes place over an interval of 40 to 200 milliseconds. Beginning with an eyeblink in 40 milliseconds, the response wave moves the head forward in 83 milliseconds, and then continues downward reaching the knees in 200 milliseconds. The change in direction we observe [in the head snap] occurs in 56 milliseconds (1/18th/second), and involves not the negligible mass of an eyelid but the considerable mass of a human head moving forward with an acceleration of several g's.
What is your opinion on the speed of the alleged neuromuscular reaction?
2. One author has objected to the neuromuscular-reaction theory on the following basis:
A "massive neuromuscular reaction," according to Messrs. Ford and Belin, occurs when there is "massive damage inflicted to nerve centers of the brain." The nerve centers of the brain are the pons, the medulla, the cerebellum--all located in the rear of the brain. According to the Warren Commission and the HSCA, the head shot damaged the right cerebral hemisphere of Kennedy's brain--not a nerve coordination center, not capable of causing a "massive neuromuscular reaction."
The neuromuscular reaction that supposedly accounts for the backward snap of Kennedy's head when struck by a bullet from behind could happen only if a major coordinating center of the brain is damaged. According to the x-rays and autopsy photos that lone-gunman theorists champion as evidence of a shot from behind, those areas of the brain are intact.
What is your opinion of this objection to the neuromuscular-reaction theory?
Dr. Zacharko responded as follows in an e-mail dated 8 February 1999:
If you ask any neuroscientist what a neuromuscular effect is they will tell you that it refers to some interface of nerve and muscle for example. In some cases a simple reflex response (e.g., knee jerk for example). Can certain reflexes be influenced? Certainly. Do head movements fall into such a category? No. The head movements that you are referring to are following the laws of physics. With all due respect to Belin and Ford I would ask what medical references or more precisely what research references are being using to document arguments of neuromuscular reactivity. Simply stated there are none. The pons and medulla contain centres for respiration, cardiovascular regulation, visceral reactivity and the like. The cerebellum is also present at this level. Damage to these areas will interrupt respiration and heart rhythm and affect motor coordination. Neural damage per se associated with bullet entry will not cause exaggerated head movement of the type you see in the Zapruder film. In fact there are no brain sites that will. This neuromuscular reactivity argument is simply nonsense. [Note: One could make the argument, ludicrous as it may sound, that Kennedy actually saw the bullet approaching and jerked his head back reflexively to avoid being hit.]
The second author does not appear to be any more informed than either Belin or Ford. There is no such thing as a major coordinating centre. Those arguments were largely discounted in the 1960's. The brain simply does not act in such a fashion. It is a coordinated system. Actually there is a system which is referred to as the extrapyramidal motor system, which runs from the mesencephalon to the forebrain. It controls voluntary movement. If this system was to discharge, you would effect gross motor output. Such discharge would typically represent the invasion of seizure like activity to motor areas. It would not be coordinated and certainly not of the type evident in the Zapruder film.
The bottom line is that the head movements are reactions to the direction of bullet entry. They are not the product of central nervous system damage. It would almost seem that certain myths are maintained in the absence of documented data. Information from half-sources of documentation appear to blend with legitimate sources of information to provide muddled scenarios.
Sincerely,
Dr Robert M. Zacharko, Life Sciences Research Building, Institute of Neuroscience, Carleton University, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
As for the jet-effect hypothesis, ballistics expert Larry Sturdivan gave testimony to the HSCA that tended to refute the theory, and he himself seemed to implicitly reject it. Among other things, Sturdivan pointed out that the right-frontal explosion seen in the Zapruder film would not have had sufficient force to rapidly propel JFK's upper body backward and to the left (1 HSCA 423). Furthermore, Sturdivan noted that whatever force was created by the right-frontal spray would have pushed Kennedy straight to the left, not backward and to the left. Some proponents of the jet-effect theory appeal to Newton's third law as support for the idea, but physics instructor Ken Degazio argues this suggestion is invalid (10:367-368).
Lone-gunman theorists cite Dr. Luis Alvarez's experiments with melons, saying the experiments prove the jet-effect theory is plausible. Mechanical engineer Tony Szamboti explains why Alvarez's tests aren't relevant and details one of the reasons the jet-effect theory is implausible:
The requirements for the “jet effect” to dominate and cause a motion towards the shooter are threefold and they are; the early development of a temporary cavity pressure, a low shear force through the skin or casing of the object, and an entrance side sealing of the permanent cavity. Although a “jet effect” may have occurred in Dr. Alvarez’s melon tests, the main trick was in using an object with a soft skin or casing (the melon) to reduce the shear force. The early temporary cavity produced by the lead projectile of the hunting ammunition also helped. The taping of the melon rind would allow it to resist any hoop stress due to internal pressure. Since the tensile strength of the melon rind is low, hoop stress could have caused a fracture and spoiled the test. The tape would also provide for a small entrance and better chance for permanent cavity sealing at the entrance side. The use of tape on the melons also provided these advantages without truly replicating the human skull. While the tape would tend to mock up the tensile strength of the human cranium, it would not enhance the shear strength very much. It is the shear strength that is operative here not the tensile strength. The melon tests were thus misleading and the “jet effect” seen on the melons, with the use of hunting ammunition and tape, really has no place in attempting to explain away the back and to the left head motion of President Kennedy as being possible if hit from the rear.
The shear forces generated by the bullet penetrating through the much higher shear strength of the President’s skull would preclude the appearance of a “jet effect” induced motion in the assassination. This was demonstrated at the Army's Edgewood Arsenal in 1978 during testing done for the HSCA. Ten human skulls, filled with the same tissue replicating material as that used by the Army Wound Ballistics Research program, were shot with 6.5 millimeter ammunition and all 10 skulls went forward, in the direction of the bullet. None went backward. (85:9-10)
Advocates of the jet-effect theory not only assume that the bullet came from behind, but also that no substantial amount of skull, if any at all, was blown out from the right rear part of the head. Yet, as we have seen, there is compelling eyewitness testimony, supported by the original Parkland Hospital reports, that there was a large, exit-type wound in the right rear area of Kennedy's head.
In 1988 3M's Comtal Corporation analyzed the fatal head shot in the Nix film. Comtal specializes in photographic analysis through computerized enhancements. Jack Anderson reported in his 1988 documentary Who Murdered JFK? that the Comtal study determined that "the fatal gunshot came from in front of the president's car . . . from the grassy knoll."
How does Posner explain the fact that the police officers who were riding to the left rear of the limousine were forcefully splattered with JFK's blood and brain tissue? He resorts to invention. He claims that in an "enhanced" version of the Zapruder film "the two officers drive right into the head spray, which actually shot up and to the front of the President" (6:316 n). The Zapruder film shows no such thing. The spray from the right frontal explosion blows mostly forward and also upward and toward Zapruder's camera, as Dr. Sturdivan noted during the HSCA hearings, and it dissipates very quickly. And, as will be discussed below, if a large amount of the spray had blown to the left side of the limousine, it would have plastered Mrs. Kennedy, but the Zapruder film clearly shows this did not occur.
As for the direction of the spray from Kennedy's head, much of it was blown backward, not just forward, indicating a shot from the front. Officer Hargis, riding just behind the limousine's left rear bumper, was splattered by blood and brain matter, and was struck so forcefully by a particulate matter that at first he thought he himself had been hit (Itek's experts acknowledged that this is the plain sense of Hargis's statements on the subject). Officer B. J. Martin, who was on Hargis's left, looked to his right after the first shots; later, he found blood stains on the left side of his helmet, as well as on his windshield. Only blood spraying from the rear of JFK's head could have reached all the way out to Officer Martin. There is also the fact that a piece of skull from the rear of the President's head was blown backward and to the left by the fatal head shot (5:13-15; 10:172; 18:316-317; cf. 18:530-533). There are indications that one skull fragment, known as the Harper fragment, was blown backward with such force that it flew at least ten feet before landing, although the FBI inexplicably failed to establish exactly where the fragment landed (14:32; 2:231). Dealey Plaza witness Charles Brehm, who was standing across the street from the grassy knoll, saw a piece of skull blown backward and to the left when the fatal shot struck the President (18:44, 96, 316, 331 n).
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This is a far cry from the days when:
Warren Commission member Allen Dulles denied the Zapruder film showed Kennedy moving backward in response to the final shot.
The members of the Warren Commission did not see the film, so any statement by Allen Dulles was a guess.
Gone, too, are the days when it was proposed that the limousine suddenly lurched forward at the precise moment of the last shot and thus caused the President's fierce backward motion.
I never heard a LNer claim a lurch from the limousine caused the President’s head to go backward. I have heard CTers claim the acceleration of JFK’s head backwards over a quarter of a second was caused by the limousine accelerating, which is a false claim. I’ve heard that claim quite recently, on this board. I don’t have to reach back fifty years.
We can also rest assured that CBS's Dan Rather will never again tell a nationwide audience, as he did the day after the assassination, that in the Zapruder film Kennedy's head is thrust forward by the final shot.
Only another example of why we should not trust eyewitnesses, even professional reporters. Dan Rather was trusting in his memory. And he wasn’t asked to note if the head moved backwards before seeing the film, then saw the film, then reported it did not move backwards. The question first came up after he saw the film, could not refer to it before answering and answered it wrong.
Now we are told the President was indeed rocketed violently backward but that this movement was caused by a neuromuscular reaction and/or by the jet effect. There are serious problems with these theories. Neither is really credible. One expert told the HSCA that neuromuscular reactions normally do not begin for several minutes after the upper brain centers have been separated from the brain stem and the spinal cord, and such reactions do not resemble Kennedy's response to the fatal head shot. Former Rockefeller Foundation fellow Henry Hurt explained:
No. Only CTers lie and tell us that the President’s head rocketed violently backward.
The Zapruder film shows, which you can check Physics graduate student’s William Hoffman work which he did for Josiah Thompson’s “Six Seconds in Dallas”:
https://archive.org/details/SixSecondsInDallas/page/n103/mode/2up
That initially, the head moved forward 2.3 inches between two Zapruder frames. Then it moved back
z-312-313: moved forward 2.3 inches
z-313-314: moved backward 0.6 inches
z-314-315: moved backward 0.9 inches
z-315-316: moved backward 1.2 inches, and reached the z-312 position
z-316-317: moved backward 1.4 inches
z-317-318: moved backward 1.8 inches
From z313-318, over a quarter of a second, the head accelerated backwards
From z313 through z318, over a quarter of a second period, it accelerated from 0.0 mph to 1.9 mph. 2 mph is not being moved violently.
This is not in accordance to Physics if the explanation you want is from a single bullet from the front. I know, I took Classic Physics in college. If the movement was caused by a bullet, all the momentum exchange would take place in a millisecond. You would not see an acceleration over the next quarter second.
Never, have I seen a CTer even attempt to explain how a bullet could cause an acceleration of the head over a quarter of a second period, from z313 through z318. Never.
I asked Dr. Robert Zacharko, a neuroscientist at Carleton University in Canada, about the theory that JFK's backward head snap was caused by a neuromuscular reaction. I wrote to Dr. Zacharko as follows:
You now repeat again what you said to Dr. Zacharko and how he responded. And how you left Dr. Zacharko in ignorance of the goat film. So, whatever opinion he has is based on ignorance.
I would like an expert who addresses the neuro-muscular reaction hypothesis to know three things:
1. Observe a film of an animal being shot though the brain. Like the film of the goat. To see the reaction from the body.
2. To have studied the work of William Hoffman, and to know that the movement backwards of the President’s head was a gradual acceleration that lasted over a quarter of a second. And, ideally, study the Zapruder film carefully, frame by frame, to see if William Hoffman got it right.
3. To understand basic Classical Physics. To know that a bullet that passes through a target in a millisecond isn’t going to cause that object to gradually accelerate away from the shooter during the next quarter second. Instead, such an interaction would cause the transfer of momentum to take place within a millisecond, thereafter the target should move away from the shooter at a constant speed, with constant momentum.
At a minimum, at a minimum, an expert would have to know these three things. He could argue goats are different than humans. He could say he thinks William Hoffman did not do a good job. He could say that Classical Physics is just wrong and not to be trusted, no more than the Theory of Evolution. But he has to be aware of these three facts.
As for the jet-effect hypothesis, …
I reject the jet-effect hypotheses. Yes, it happens with taped melons. But these targets start moving back toward the shooter immediately, within a few milliseconds as the melon explodes. JFK’s head doesn’t start moving backwards for roughly 55 milliseconds. So, let’s not waste anymore time on the jet-effect hypotheses.
How does Posner explain the fact that the police officers who were riding to the left rear of the limousine were forcefully splattered with JFK's blood and brain tissue? He resorts to invention. He claims that in an "enhanced" version of the Zapruder film "the two officers drive right into the head spray, which actually shot up and to the front of the President" (6:316 n). The Zapruder film shows no such thing. The spray from the right frontal explosion blows mostly forward and also upward and toward Zapruder's camera, as Dr. Sturdivan noted during the HSCA hearings, and it dissipates very quickly. And, as will be discussed below, if a large amount of the spray had blown to the left side of the limousine, it would have plastered Mrs. Kennedy, but the Zapruder film clearly shows this did not occur.
The limousine was going 8 mph directly into a 10-15 mph head wind. Any bloody spray that exists will be blown backwards onto the trailing motorcycle offices. The cloud will approach them at a speed of 18-23 mph. Posner’s explanation is not a fantastic explanation but a reasonable one.
The Zapruder film shows the spray go upward and forward and then fade from view, as if it passed from existence. Except it couldn’t have passed into non-existence. It must have become too dispersed to see and we would expect the wind to blow it back onto the trailing officers at 18-23 mph. I don’t know if that happened, but it sounds reasonable. Maybe the bloody spray immediately dived into the ground like a lead ball, but I suspect it would stay suspended in the air for a second, long enough for the officers to drive through it.
But let’s not continue to go off on tangents, on bloody spray, jet-effect hypothesis, what was said fifty years ago, etc.
Questions:
Why was Dr. Zachanko kept in ignorance of film of the goat?
Why was Dr. Zachanko kept in ignorance of the William Hoffman study?
In the future, would you make certain a medical expert was made aware of my three points when you ask them if the neuro-muscular reaction hypothesis could be true?
When to you expect the CTers will find a single doctor, in the world, he knows about the three points I listed and still rejects the neuro-muscular reaction hypothesis? It’s been over 50 years. Do you think this will ever happen?
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The members of the Warren Commission did not see the film, so any statement by Allen Dulles was a guess.
I never heard a LNer claim a lurch from the limousine caused the President’s head to go backward. I have heard CTers claim the acceleration of JFK’s head backwards over a quarter of a second was caused by the limousine accelerating, which is a false claim. I’ve heard that claim quite recently, on this board. I don’t have to reach back fifty years.
Only another example of why we should not trust eyewitnesses, even professional reporters. Dan Rather was trusting in his memory. And he wasn’t asked to note if the head moved backwards before seeing the film, then saw the film, then reported it did not move backwards. The question first came up after he saw the film, could not refer to it before answering and answered it wrong.
No. Only CTers lie and tell us that the President’s head rocketed violently backward.
The Zapruder film shows, which you can check Physics graduate student’s William Hoffman work which he did for Josiah Thompson’s “Six Seconds in Dallas”:
https://archive.org/details/SixSecondsInDallas/page/n103/mode/2up
That initially, the head moved forward 2.3 inches between two Zapruder frames. Then it moved back
z-312-313: moved forward 2.3 inches
z-313-314: moved backward 0.6 inches
z-314-315: moved backward 0.9 inches
z-315-316: moved backward 1.2 inches, and reached the z-312 position
z-316-317: moved backward 1.4 inches
z-317-318: moved backward 1.8 inches
From z313-318, over a quarter of a second, the head accelerated backwards
From z313 through z318, over a quarter of a second period, it accelerated from 0.0 mph to 1.9 mph. 2 mph is not being moved violently.
This is not in accordance to Physics if the explanation you want is from a single bullet from the front. I know, I took Classic Physics in college. If the movement was caused by a bullet, all the momentum exchange would take place in a millisecond. You would not see an acceleration over the next quarter second.
Never, have I seen a CTer even attempt to explain how a bullet could cause an acceleration of the head over a quarter of a second period, from z313 through z318. Never.
You now repeat again what you said to Dr. Zacharko and how he responded. And how you left Dr. Zacharko in ignorance of the goat film. So, whatever opinion he has is based on ignorance.
I would like an expert who addresses the neuro-muscular reaction hypothesis to know three things:
1. Observe a film of an animal being shot though the brain. Like the film of the goat. To see the reaction from the body.
2. To have studied the work of William Hoffman, and to know that the movement backwards of the President’s head was a gradual acceleration that lasted over a quarter of a second. And, ideally, study the Zapruder film carefully, frame by frame, to see if William Hoffman got it right.
3. To understand basic Classical Physics. To know that a bullet that passes through a target in a millisecond isn’t going to cause that object to gradually accelerate away from the shooter during the next quarter second. Instead, such an interaction would cause the transfer of momentum to take place within a millisecond, thereafter the target should move away from the shooter at a constant speed, with constant momentum.
At a minimum, at a minimum, an expert would have to know these three things. He could argue goats are different than humans. He could say he thinks William Hoffman did not do a good job. He could say that Classical Physics is just wrong and not to be trusted, no more than the Theory of Evolution. But he has to be aware of these three facts.
I reject the jet-effect hypotheses. Yes, it happens with taped melons. But these targets start moving back toward the shooter immediately, within a few milliseconds as the melon explodes. JFK’s head doesn’t start moving backwards for roughly 55 milliseconds. So, let’s not waste anymore time on the jet-effect hypotheses.
The limousine was going 8 mph directly into a 10-15 mph head wind. Any bloody spray that exists will be blown backwards onto the trailing motorcycle offices. The cloud will approach them at a speed of 18-23 mph. Posner’s explanation is not a fantastic explanation but a reasonable one.
The Zapruder film shows the spray go upward and forward and then fade from view, as if it passed from existence. Except it couldn’t have passed into non-existence. It must have become too dispersed to see and we would expect the wind to blow it back onto the trailing officers at 18-23 mph. I don’t know if that happened, but it sounds reasonable. Maybe the bloody spray immediately dived into the ground like a lead ball, but I suspect it would stay suspended in the air for a second, long enough for the officers to drive through it.
But let’s not continue to go off on tangents, on bloody spray, jet-effect hypothesis, what was said fifty years ago, etc.
Questions:
Why was Dr. Zachanko kept in ignorance of film of the goat?
Why was Dr. Zachanko kept in ignorance of the William Hoffman study?
In the future, would you make certain a medical expert was made aware of my three points when you ask them if the neuro-muscular reaction hypothesis could be true?
When to you expect the CTers will find a single doctor, in the world, he knows about the three points I listed and still rejects the neuro-muscular reaction hypothesis? It’s been over 50 years. Do you think this will ever happen?
Whoosh. . . . A few points in reply:
Dr. Zacharko was not "kept in ignorance" about anything. I didn't mention to him all the war footage that shows bodies traveling in the same direction as that of the striking bullet, either. I didn't mention that the bullet that struck Connally knocked him forward, and that Connally said it felt like someone hit him hard in the back with their fist. Why don't you deal with Dr. Zacharko's answer instead of this diversionary line of questioning?
It is a little silly to claim that Dr. Zacharko's answer was "based on ignorance" because I didn't mention an irrelevant goat film. I notice you did not address Dr. Riley's point that the neurobiology and neurophysics of a goat are completely different from that of a human.
I notice you didn't address Dr. Thompson's arguments against the neuro-muscular reaction theory, either. Without that theory, you have no way to explain the incredible speed of the opposing movements unless you allow for a shot from the front.
To excuse Dan Rather's description of the head movement as a memory mistake seems weak and strained. He had just watched the film a few hours earlier. His description of Connally's reaction is accurate. His description of when the film started matches what Zapruder himself said. His description of the head movement was the movement seen on the original film. Rather would not have mistaken a violent backward movement for a violent forward movement. DeLoach saw the same violent forward movement in the version (the original) that he saw. Bill Newman and several other witnesses likewise reported that sharp forward movement.
Posner's theory that the wind blew the particulate matter at Hargis with such force that he thought he'd been hit is ridiculous. The current Z film shows no spray blowing backward (it blows to the right front, toward the camera, and then, remarkably, disappears in a few frames). The wind that day was not continuous but was blowing intermittently. The limo's windshield and roll bar would have blocked much of the wind from blowing the spray backward anyway.
You said, "That initially, the head moved forward 2.3 inches between two Zapruder frames. Then it moved back." Uh, yeah, I made that exact point. And your only explanation for this amazing reversal of motion is the neuro-muscular reaction theory, a theory that even some of your fellow lone-gunman theorists reject, which is why they've opted for the jet-effect theory.
You said, "From z313 through z318, over a quarter of a second period, it accelerated from 0.0 mph to 1.9 mph. 2 mph is not being moved violently." LOL! Seriously?!!! So a 190% increase in speed in five frames on an object that has moved 2.3 inches in 1/18th of a second does not meet your definition of "violent"?! And leaving aside this nonsensical denial, has it just been a while since you watched the Zapruder film? I have never known anyone who claims that the backward movement of JFK's head in the film is not violent and dramatic. Not only does does his head move violently backward, but his torso is also thrown backward with considerable--obvious--force.
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Dr. Zacharko was not "kept in ignorance" about anything.
False. He was kept in ignorance of the main piece of evidence that LNers always bring forward when arguing for the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis. The film of the goat being shot through the brain.
I didn't mention to him all the war footage that shows bodies traveling in the same direction as that of the striking bullet, either. I didn't mention that the bullet that struck Connally knocked him forward, and that Connally said it felt like someone hit him hard in the back with their fist. Why don't you deal with Dr. Zacharko's answer instead of this diversionary line of questioning?
You’re still playing the same game. Only mentioning films that show bodies falling away from the shooters. How about mentioning films were the bodies fall toward the shooters. Like the Holocaust film from Liepaja, Latvia, taken in the summer of 1941:
The amount of momentum in a bullet weighing a third of an ounce, going 1,400 mph, contains the same amount of momentum that a 28-pound weight has going 1 mph. And only about half or less of the momentum gets transferred since a rifle bullet typically exits a body with half or more off its speed. That is why some of the victims of this massacre fell toward the shooters, others away.
Look at the Mythbusters videos of targets weighing the same a human being struck by many types of bullets, including rifle bullets. The experiments match what simple calculations, like the one I provided, say. Not a lot of momentum is transferred, because bullets only have a small amount of momentum. They don’t fling bodies around violently, or even at 2 mph.
A soldier shot in combat might start moving quickly in certain directions just before getting hit, might start to flinch away from gunflashes. Giving the false impression that they were being flung about by bullets.
Tests with a ballistic gel target, like the Myth Busters use, are a better test because ballistic gel targets don’t’ flinch away from gunfire.
It is a little silly to claim that Dr. Zacharko's answer was "based on ignorance" because I didn't mention an irrelevant goat film. I notice you did not address Dr. Riley's point that the neurobiology and neurophysics of a goat are completely different from that of a human.
You claim the goat film is irrelevant.
Can you support your unfounded claim? This unfounded excuse not to inform Dr. Zacharko of the existence of this film? That is:
Question 1:
Can you name a single article, a single book, that argues for the Neuromuscular Spasm as being the cause of JFK’s backward movement, that does not even mention the film of the goat?
If not, then this is not an irrelevant fact, but core of the claim of the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis and should have been mentioned to Dr. Zacharko before asking for this opinion, since this might have altered his conclusions.
Question 2:
Should an authority be informed of the main argument, the main piece of evidence, of both sides before being asked for his opinion? Yes or No.
Or is it sometimes best to keep him in ignorance.
Question 3:
Should the decision to dismiss the main piece of evidence presented by LNers, be made by Dr. Zacharko or Michael Griffith?
I notice you didn't address Dr. Thompson's arguments against the neuro-muscular reaction theory, either. Without that theory, you have no way to explain the incredible speed of the opposing movements unless you allow for a shot from the front.
Doctor Thompson, is it? Are you trying to give the false impression that you do have a medical doctor who knows about the goat film and whose medical expertise leaves him to not believe in the Neuromuscular Spasm? Josiah Thompson has a Ph.D. in Philosophy, not in medicine. Again, you phrase things that are technically correct, but misleading.
So, what does our good “doctor” has to say:
The extremely small time factor combined with the relatively large mass of the President's head would tend to rule out such an explanation. The fastest reflex action known to science--the startle response--takes place over an interval of 40 to 200 milliseconds. Beginning with an eyeblink in 40 milliseconds, the response wave moves the head forward in 83 milliseconds, and then continues downward reaching the knees in 200 milliseconds. The change in direction we observe [i.e., the change from the forward motion of JFK's head to the more violent rearward motion] occurs in 56 milliseconds (1/18th second), and involves not the negligible mass of an eyelid but the considerable mass of a human head moving forward under an acceleration of several g's.
Interesting. Except the goat started moving its body 40 milliseconds after being shot. And not with an eye blink. So, regardless of the opinion of “Doctor” Thompson, the Neuromuscular Spasm can start within 55 ms, or indeed, withing 40ms.
To excuse Dan Rather's description of the head movement as a memory mistake seems weak and strained. He had just watched the film a few hours earlier. His description of Connally's reaction is accurate. His description of when the film started matches what Zapruder himself said. His description of the head movement was the movement seen on the original film. Rather would not have mistaken a violent backward movement for a violent forward movement. DeLoach saw the same violent forward movement in the version (the original) that he saw. Bill Newman and several other witnesses likewise reported that sharp forward movement.
Witness are often in error when interviewed within a few hours, or even immediately. They may remember somethings right and somethings wrong. Can you prove that Dan Rather had an infallible photographic memory? Or name any person in the world with an infallible photographic memory?
Posner's theory that the wind blew the particulate matter at Hargis with such force that he thought he'd been hit is ridiculous. The current Z film shows no spray blowing backward (it blows to the right front, toward the camera, and then, remarkably, disappears in a few frames). The wind that day was not continuous but was blowing intermittently. The limo's windshield and roll bar would have blocked much of the wind from blowing the spray backward anyway.
Again, you are being misleading. Hargis never said that he was hit with such force he thought he had been hit. Only CTers said that.
He only said he felt something hit his face and thought he was shot. He doesn’t say it was the force of the object that convinced him he was shot. It could be he saw the head explode, felt something touch him and thought he was struck. And how much force could he been struck with and still leave him unwounded?
You said, "That initially, the head moved forward 2.3 inches between two Zapruder frames. Then it moved back." Uh, yeah, I made that exact point. And your only explanation for this amazing reversal of motion is the neuro-muscular reaction theory, a theory that even some of your fellow lone-gunman theorists reject, which is why they've opted for the jet-effect theory.
Not all LNers are right about everything. I’m sure some of my current beliefs about the assassination will change in the future, as they have in the past.
You said, "From z313 through z318, over a quarter of a second period, it accelerated from 0.0 mph to 1.9 mph. 2 mph is not being moved violently." LOL! Seriously?!!! So a 190% increase in speed in five frames on an object that has moved 2.3 inches in 1/18th of a second does not meet your definition of "violent"?! And leaving aside this nonsensical denial, has it just been a while since you watched the Zapruder film? I have never known anyone who claims that the backward movement of JFK's head in the film is not violent and dramatic. Not only does does his head move violently backward, but his torso is also thrown backward with considerable--obvious--force.
No, it’s not a 190% increase. It is an infinite amount of increase, from 0 mph to 2 mph. But it doesn’t matter, a 190% increase or an infinite amount of increase, is still only an increase of 2 mph. If this is violent movement than every time, I walk through the neighborhood I do so with a violent amount of speed. I’m liable to break someone’s ribs if I bump into them.
If you say to someone: JFK’s head was very violently thrown backwards. Could this be the result of a Neuromuscular Spasm? Your average person will answer no. How could the human body be capable of such violent movement?
But if you say to someone: JFK’s head moved backwards, over a time of a quarter of a second, from 0 mph to 2 mph. Could this be the result of a Neuromuscular Spasm? Your average person will be more inclined not to dismiss the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis out of hand.
Question 4:
In the future, will you tell people that JFK’s head was thrown back violently, or tell them it moved backwards at 2 mph?
Question 5:
And the most important question of all. Do you believe a bullet only transfers momentum to a target while it is passing through the target?
Or do you believe a bullet can continue to transfer momentum to a target even after it’s left the body. Accounting for the gradual increase of speed of JFK’s backwards from 0 mph to 2 mph over the course of a quarter of a second.
I’m going to keep asking questions 1 through 5 until you answer them.
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Dr. David Mantik, who is both a physicist and a medical doctor (radiation oncology), explains some of the problems with the neuromuscular reaction theory:
The other traditional explanation for the head snap has been the "neuromuscular reaction." This was first proposed to the HSCA not by any neuroscience specialist, but by a wound ballistics expert based on his viewing old films of goats being shot in the head. To date no official testimony has been obtained from appropriate specialists (the neuroscientists) on this question. At the very least, interspecies differences in neurophysiology would leave this conclusion open at least to some doubt. In addition, the usual reaction to such brain trauma is not the highly directed movement observed in the Zapruder film but rather random muscular activity. Even Alvarez concluded that the highly directional recoil seen in the Zapruder film required the application of an external force.
Yet another objection to the decerebrate rigidity invoked by the HSCA is the time of onset; even the HSCA admitted that this would develop only after several minutes. I have been unable to find any literature references that even hint that this reaction could occur within milliseconds in human subjects-as is required for the head snap as seen in the film. Furthermore, in a large collaborative study (A.E. Walker, Cerebral Death, 1981, p. 33) with over 500 patients who experienced cerebral death, 70% were limp when observed just before death and an additional 10% became limp at about the time of death. At the very least, therefore, based on all of these considerations, the attempt by the HSCA to implicate a neuromuscular reaction is open to serious doubt. Moreover, the minimum requirement has never been met-the appropriate experts have never been officially consulted.
An additional argument against a neuromuscular reaction is that the observed reaction in the film is much too fast to fit with such a reflex. By the analysis of more than one study, within the space of one Zapruder frame interval (55 msec), the head clearly moves backward. Typical human reflex times are 114 to 112 second (250 to 500 msec). This is an extraordinary discrepancy-a factor of 5 to 10, which, all by itself, makes this scenario quite unlikely. (Assassination Science, pp. 281-282, PDF copy available online at https://www.krusch.com/books/kennedy/Assassination_Science.pdf)
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The other traditional explanation for the head snap has been the "neuromuscular reaction." This was first proposed to the HSCA not by any neuroscience specialist, but by a wound ballistics expert based on his viewing old films of goats being shot in the head. To date no official testimony has been obtained from appropriate specialists (the neuroscientists) on this question. At the very least, interspecies differences in neurophysiology would leave this conclusion open at least to some doubt. In addition, the usual reaction to such brain trauma is not the highly directed movement observed in the Zapruder film but rather random muscular activity.
It is unethical to run this experiment with humans, so we must limit ourselves to experiments on animals, like goats.
The movement of the goat is not random at all. Both the left and right half of the body move the same way. Both forelimbs kick forward. Both hindlimbs kick backwards. And the back arches. Just like what we see happen to JFK. Both the goat video and the Zapruder film, are consistent with a spurious signal down the spinal cord telling all muscles to contract, causing the stronger muscle of each pair to move a body part.
Even Alvarez concluded that the highly directional recoil seen in the Zapruder film required the application of an external force.
Dr. Alvarez was not a medical doctor but a great Physicist, so it is natural that he would look for the answer to be found in Physics.
So, essentially, we must conclude that the Jet Effect Hypothesis is false because some LNers support the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypotheses. And the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypotheses is false because some LNers support the Jet Effect Hypotheses. We can’t even consider the possibility that some LNers are wrong, while some are right, and that one of these hypotheses is true.
Yet another objection to the decerebrate rigidity invoked by the HSCA is the time of onset; even the HSCA admitted that this would develop only after several minutes. I have been unable to find any literature references that even hint that this reaction could occur within milliseconds in human subjects-as is required for the head snap as seen in the film. Furthermore, in a large collaborative study (A.E. Walker, Cerebral Death, 1981, p. 33) with over 500 patients who experienced cerebral death, 70% were limp when observed just before death and an additional 10% became limp at about the time of death. At the very least, therefore, based on all of these considerations, the attempt by the HSCA to implicate a neuromuscular reaction is open to serious doubt. Moreover, the minimum requirement has never been met-the appropriate experts have never been officially consulted.
But the goat starts to move within 40 ms of being shot through the brain. But, again, you feel that the opinion of armchair experts, who do not study the film of real animals being shot through the brain, should overrule what film actually shows us. And conclude that an animal being shot though the brain cannot react within 55 ms but instead would take several minutes to observe any body movement in either the goat or JFK.
An additional argument against a neuromuscular reaction is that the observed reaction in the film is much too fast to fit with such a reflex. By the analysis of more than one study, within the space of one Zapruder frame interval (55 msec), the head clearly moves backward. Typical human reflex times are 114 to 112 second (250 to 500 msec). This is an extraordinary discrepancy-a factor of 5 to 10, which, all by itself, makes this scenario quite unlikely. (Assassination Science, pp. 281-282, PDF copy available online at https://www.krusch.com/books/kennedy/Assassination_Science.pdf)
But this claim is false because the goat in the video beings to move 40 milliseconds after being shot in the head. While typical animal reflexes do take longer than 40 ms, the neuromuscular spasm is much faster. But rather than accept what the film shows us, you decide that the armchair analysis of a doctor overrules what the film shows.
Well, you dodged all five of my questions. So I will ask them again.
Question 1:
Can you name a single article, a single book, that argues for the Neuromuscular Spasm as being the cause of JFK’s backward movement, that does not even mention the film of the goat?
If not, then this is not an irrelevant fact, but core of the claim of the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis and should have been mentioned to Dr. Zacharko before asking for this opinion, since this might have altered his conclusions.
Question 2:
Should an authority be informed of the main argument, the main piece of evidence, of both sides before being asked for his opinion? Yes or No.
Or is it sometimes best to keep him in ignorance.
Question 3:
Should the decision to dismiss the main piece of evidence presented by LNers, be made by Dr. Zacharko or Michael Griffith?
Question 4:
In the future, will you tell people that JFK’s head was thrown back violently, or tell them it moved backwards at 2 mph?
Question 5:
And the most important question of all. Do you believe a bullet only transfers momentum to a target while it is passing through the target?
Or do you believe a bullet can continue to transfer momentum to a target even after it’s left the body. Accounting for the gradual increase of speed of JFK’s backwards from 0 mph to 2 mph over the course of a quarter of a second.
I’m going to keep asking questions 1 through 5 until you answer them.
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It is unethical to run this experiment with humans, so we must limit ourselves to experiments on animals, like goats.
The movement of the goat is not random at all. Both the left and right half of the body move the same way. Both forelimbs kick forward. Both hindlimbs kick backwards. And the back arches. Just like what we see happen to JFK. Both the goat video and the Zapruder film, are consistent with a spurious signal down the spinal cord telling all muscles to contract, causing the stronger muscle of each pair to move a body part.
This is quack material, downright nutty. But it's all you have because you will not allow yourself to consider the evidence of a shot from the front.
You keep ignoring the point that neuromuscular reactions in humans are not fast enough to cause the movement we see in the Zapruder film. Several scholars have made this point, including Thompson and Mantik, but you keep ignoring it.
You also keep ignoring Dr. Riley's point, reinforced by Dr. Mantik, that goat and human neurobiology and neurophysics are very different.
And are you ever going to deal with Dr. Zacharko's point that the neuromuscular-reaction theory is "simply nonsense"? Let's read his bottom line on this nutty theory:
"Neural damage per se associated with bullet entry will not cause exaggerated head movement of the type you see in the Zapruder film. In fact there are no brain sites that will. This neuromuscular reactivity argument is simply nonsense. . . .
"Actually there is a system which is referred to as the extrapyramidal motor system, which runs from the mesencephalon to the forebrain. It controls voluntary movement. If this system was to discharge, you would effect gross motor output. Such discharge would typically represent the invasion of seizure like activity to motor areas. It would not be coordinated and certainly not of the type evident in the Zapruder film. The bottom line is that the head movements are reactions to the direction of bullet entry. They are not the product of central nervous system damage."
Dr. Alvarez was not a medical doctor but a great Physicist, so it is natural that he would look for the answer to be found in Physics.
Yeah, who needs science when it comes to avoiding conclusions you don't like, right?
So, essentially, we must conclude that the Jet Effect Hypothesis is false because some LNers support the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypotheses. And the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypotheses is false because some LNers support the Jet Effect Hypotheses. We can’t even consider the possibility that some LNers are wrong, while some are right, and that one of these hypotheses is true.
Which is a very long-winded way of dancing around the point that even some of your fellow WC apologists can see that the neuromuscular-reaction theory is "simply nonsense."
But the goat starts to move within 40 ms of being shot through the brain. But, again, you feel that the opinion of armchair experts, who do not study the film of real animals being shot through the brain, should overrule what film actually shows us. And conclude that an animal being shot though the brain cannot react within 55 ms but instead would take several minutes to observe any body movement in either the goat or JFK.
In other words, never mind what we know from science about the speed of human neuromuscular reactions, and never mind the impossibility of the physics involved with the violent reversal of movement. Nah, forget about all that stuff and instead cling for dear life onto some irrelevant video of a goat being shot in the head with its head secured, and never mind that goats and humans have very different neurobiology and neurophysics.
But this claim is false because the goat in the video beings to move 40 milliseconds after being shot in the head.
Was JFK a goat? Is that your theory but you're just not saying it? Goat, goat, goat, goat. Here, read this carefully: Goats and humans have different neurobiology and neurophysics. JFK was not a goat. Who cares about the reactions of a goat when we know that human neuromuscular reactions are not fast enough to produce the movement we see in the Zapruder film?
While typical animal reflexes do take longer than 40 ms, the neuromuscular spasm is much faster. But rather than accept what the film shows us, you decide that the armchair analysis of a doctor overrules what the film shows.
No, the problem is that rather than accept what science tells us about the speed of human neuromuscular reactions, and rather than accept the fact that humans are not goats, and rather than accept the fact that human and goat neurobiology and neurophysics are different (which most high schoolers would guess just based on common sense), and rather than deal honestly with the impossibility of the physics of the split-second reversal of the movement of JFK's head--rather than accept these facts, you keep citing this ridiculous goat film.
And, we are not talking about one "armchair analysis of a doctor" but of the analyses of several doctors (one of whom is also a physicist), two neuroscientists (Riley and Zacharko), several forensic pathologists (including a former head of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences), and at least three physicists (Alvarez, Snyder, and Chambers).
Well, you dodged all five of my questions. So I will ask them again.
Okay, let's deal with your silly questions.
Question 1:
Can you name a single article, a single book, that argues for the Neuromuscular Spasm as being the cause of JFK’s backward movement, that does not even mention the film of the goat?
The goat film again?! Given that those who argue for the neuromuscular-reaction theory must ignore a mountain of science to even float the theory, I have no doubt that they throw in the irrelevant goat film to support their claim--apparently, they, like you, just don't care about the differences between goat and human neurobiology and neurophysics, nor about what science tells us about the speed of human neuromuscular reactions.
If not, then this is not an irrelevant fact, but core of the claim of the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis and should have been mentioned to Dr. Zacharko before asking for this opinion, since this might have altered his conclusions.
Let me ask you a serious question in return: Do you think Dr. Zacharko would change his mind, that he would decide that the neuromuscular-reaction theory is not "simply nonsense," if he watched the goat film? Do you?
And you know that Dr. Zacharko was not just basing his answer on my description of the Zapruder film but that he had watched the film himself, right? You know that, right?
If the "core" of the neuromuscular-spasm theory is the irrelevant goat film, that should tell you what a ridiculous, unscientific theory it is. As Dr. Zacharko said, it is "simply nonsense" because science tells us that humans do not move the way JFK does in response to neuromuscular activity. Let's read Dr. Zacharko's point about this again:
"If this system was to discharge, you would effect gross motor output. Such discharge would typically represent the invasion of seizure like activity to motor areas. It would not be coordinated and certainly not of the type evident in the Zapruder film.
"The bottom line is that the head movements are reactions to the direction of bullet entry. They are not the product of central nervous system damage."
Question 2: Should an authority be informed of the main argument, the main piece of evidence, of both sides before being asked for his opinion? Yes or No. Or is it sometimes best to keep him in ignorance.
LOL! So the goat film is the "main piece of evidence" for your nutty neuromuscular-spasm theory?! Actually, I probably did your nutty theory a favor by not mentioning the goat film to Dr. Zacharko. Truth be told, it never occurred to me to mention that irrelevant film. Instead, I carefully described JFK's movements from Z312 onward and quoted two prominent authors on the science and physics of those movements.
Again, do you think Dr. Zacharko would change his mind based on the goat film? Do you think he would conclude that the human extrapyramidal motor system behaves differently than the way he described it, if he saw the goat film? After all, as you can see from his full response, he described in considerable detail the workings of the human extrapyramidal motor system, and also the pons, the medulla, and the cerebellum, and then explained that the extrapyramidal motor system would not cause the movement of JFK's head seen in the Zapruder film.
Question 3: Should the decision to dismiss the main piece of evidence presented by LNers, be made by Dr. Zacharko or Michael Griffith?
I guess it’s time for another review for you: Goats are not humans. Goats and humans have very different neurobiology and neurophysics. The goat film is irrelevant. JFK's movements are a matter of humanneurobiology and neurophysics, and Dr. Zacharko addressed them on that basis.
Again, do you think the goat film would cause Dr. Zacharko to change his conclusion that the relevant part of human neuroanatomy--the extrapyramidal motor system--would magically behave differently than he described it?
Question 4: In the future, will you tell people that JFK’s head was thrown back violently, or tell them it moved backwards at 2 mph?
Oh. My. Goodness. You are so lost in lone-gunman delusion that you can't see the forest for the huge trees. Anyone not blinded by lone-gunman denial can see with their own eyes that JFK's head and upper body are thrown violently backward and to the left from Z313-323. You are the first WC apologist I have ever personally encountered who describes that movement as “gradual” and who denies that it is violent.
And, again, what makes this movement even more incredible is that it begins a split second after the head moves 2.3 inches forward in 1/18th/second.
Question 5: And the most important question of all. Do you believe a bullet only transfers momentum to a target while it is passing through the target? Or do you believe a bullet can continue to transfer momentum to a target even after it’s left the body. Accounting for the gradual increase of speed of JFK’s backwards from 0 mph to 2 mph over the course of a quarter of a second.
Sigh. . . . Well, first of all, a 190% increase in speed in five frames, going from 0 to 1.9 mph in 5/18th/second, by an object that has just moved 2.3 inches forward (the opposite direction) in 1/18th/second is not "gradual" by any rational analysis. This is the kind of nonsense that you must posit when you are locked into an absurd theory of the shooting and the head movement. Again, anyone can look at the Zapruder film and see with their own eyes that Kennedy's head and upper body are propelled violently backward and to the left.
As for how human bodies respond to bullet strikes, it depends on the type of bullet, the type of rifle, and the action, or lack thereof, by the person just before they are struck. There is war footage that shows prisoners being executed by nearly point-blank gunfire where the prisoners exhibit no violent movements but simply fall down. There is other war footage that shows prisoners' heads moving in the same direction as the bullet that strikes them: forward when shot from behind, and backward when shot from the front. Connally's right shoulder was pushed noticeably downward by the bullet that struck him in the back, and he said it felt like someone hit him hard in the back with their fist. Martin Luther King was knocked backward by the bullet that struck him in the front.
The problem with the Zapruder film, i.e., an indication that it has been altered, is that no bullet would cause JFK's head and upper body to reverse direction so rapidly. The original film showed two noticeable reactions: JFK's head being knocked forward and then JFK's head being knocked backward but not as fiercely as we see in the current film.
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The other traditional explanation for the head snap has been the "neuromuscular reaction." This was first proposed to the HSCA not by any neuroscience specialist, but by a wound ballistics expert based on his viewing old films of goats being shot in the head.
It is irrelevant who presented the film. The film makes it clear that the Neuromuscular Spasm does occur with goats. There is no reason to assume it wouldn’t happen with humans as well.
Unlike Dr. Mantik, I do not assume the Neuromuscular Spasm is true or false. Initially, I did not believe in it. But when it became clear to me that JFK’s head did not move at a constant speed backwards, but acceleration from 0 to 2 mph, not instantly, but over the course of a quarter second, it became apparent to me that the Neuromuscular Spasm is the only possible explanation. The Frontal Bullet Hypothesis does not explain this. The Jet Effect Hypothesis does not explain this. There was not nearly enough acceleration of the limousine to account for that (it only gained 0.1 mph during z313-z318, not 2.0 mph in speed). If the Neuromuscular Spasm is rejected out of hand, then we have no explanation for the quarter of a second acceleration of JFK’s head. Which is unacceptable.
It was the evidence, the Zapruder film, William Hoffman’s careful study of the Zapruder film, that compelled me to accept the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis. Not an arbitrary assumption on my part.
To date no official testimony has been obtained from appropriate specialists (the neuroscientists) on this question. At the very least, interspecies differences in neurophysiology would leave this conclusion open at least to some doubt.
But insufficient reasons to reject this hypothesis out of hand, as Dr. Mantik and you do. Just because it occurs in goats, but might not in humans, is no reason to reject it out of hand.
In addition, the usual reaction to such brain trauma is not the highly directed movement observed in the Zapruder film but rather random muscular activity.
But it doesn’t matter if Dr. Mantik thinks that, in theory, if such a Neuromuscular Spasm occurred, the muscle activity would be random. The goat film does not show random movement. It shows the goat movement governed by its stronger muscles. The muscles that work against gravity are generally stronger than those that work with it. Hence the forelimbs swing forward and up. The hindlimbs swing backwards and up. The back arches. The movements on the right half of the body are mirrored by what happens on the left.
Question
Should we conclude that if a goat experienced such a Neuromuscular Spasm, that it’s muscle movement would be random, because Dr. Mantik thinks it would be if it occurred?
Or should we be guided by what the film shows, and conclude the movement of the goat would be quite predictable and the stronger muscles would rule?
Which is the more reasonable approach
The goat’s movements were not random, nor was JFK’s. The stronger muscles are on the back on the body, not the front, on a human. We would expect that if a Neurological Spasm, if it happens, it would cause JFK’s head to go backwards, as it did. We would expect JFK’s back to arch like it did with the goat, and also did with JFK, causing his torso to go back. We would expect his arms to raise up, which it did, like the goat’s forelimbs rose up. And we would expect this to start happening within 55 milliseconds, as it did with the goat, and also with JFK.
The Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis matches what happens to JFK to a ‘T’. It even explains why the acceleration of the head took place over a quarter of a second, as more and more muscles get activated by the spurious signal sent down the spinal cord. And not within a millisecond, as would be the case if the head was pushed by a frontal bullet.
Even Alvarez concluded that the highly directional recoil seen in the Zapruder film required the application of an external force.
Answered before and will answer again. Dr. Alvarez was a physicist, a great physicist, which Dr. Mantik is not, and never will be. And so, Dr. Alvarez would naturally look to explanations in Physics, not in Biology.
Yet another objection to the decerebrate rigidity invoked by the HSCA is the time of onset; even the HSCA admitted that this would develop only after several minutes.
Really? The HSCA thought the decerebrate rigidity explained JFK’s backwards head movement, but did not realize that the head movement happened immediately after the head shot. They thought the movement happened several minutes later?
Why would the HSCA think the effects of a Neuromuscular Spasm would be delayed by several minutes, when it occurred immediately with the goat?
Is Dr. Mantik nuts? Or misrepresenting what the HSCA thought?
I have been unable to find any literature references that even hint that this reaction could occur within milliseconds in human subjects-as is required for the head snap as seen in the film.
How many times do doctors observe someone being shot in the head with a rifle bullet? How many times do doctors study films of people being shot in the head with a rifle bullet? Never. So, even if the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypotheses is true for humans, how many times would we expect to see literature references to it? Never.
Furthermore, in a large collaborative study (A.E. Walker, Cerebral Death, 1981, p. 33) with over 500 patients who experienced cerebral death, 70% were limp when observed just before death and an additional 10% became limp at about the time of death. At the very least, therefore, based on all of these considerations, the attempt by the HSCA to implicate a neuromuscular reaction is open to serious doubt. Moreover, the minimum requirement has never been met-the appropriate experts have never been officially consulted.
Yes, we should assume that being shot through the brain with a rifle bullet would have the same effect on a person as who experiences a more peaceful cerebral death. People who die from a cerebral death, or from diabetes, or from cancer don’t experience a Neuromuscular Spasm, so why should we think that people killed by rifle bullets should react any differently?
Just because one is a doctor, does not mean that one cannot be an idiot, in certain ways.
Moreover, the minimum requirement has never been met-the appropriate experts have never been officially consulted.
And the minimum requirements are for a person to be filmed while being shot through the brain with a rifle bullet. And having the appropriate experts study the film. A study that will never allowed to take place and can never take place.
None of this justifies assuming that the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis can’t be true for humans.
An additional argument against a neuromuscular reaction is that the observed reaction in the film is much too fast to fit with such a reflex. By the analysis of more than one study, within the space of one Zapruder frame interval (55 msec), the head clearly moves backward. Typical human reflex times are 114 to 112 second (250 to 500 msec). This is an extraordinary discrepancy-a factor of 5 to 10, which, all by itself, makes this scenario quite unlikely. (Assassination Science, pp. 281-282, PDF copy available online at https://www.krusch.com/books/kennedy/Assassination_Science.pdf)
But the goat starts to move its body 40 ms after being shot. So, if the Neuromuscular Spasm is also true in humans, as it is in goats, we would expect it would be a fast reaction too, and should started within 55 ms, as we observe in the Zapruder film.
It should be noted that Dr. Mantik’s judgment is highly questionable, and this is not only apparent from the quotes you provided. In books he helped write, he argues that the Zapruder film and the other films were faked. And faked well enough to not contradict each other. And somehow the conspirators got control of all the films and photographs, so they wouldn’t get trip up by a film they didn’t know about.
And Dr. Mantik collaborated with Dr. James Fetzer. They wrote books together. A more disreputable person to collaborate with is hard to imagine. Surely, Dr. Mantik’s judgement is questionable.
I have taken pains to answer every point you bring up, which is a lot of points. While you dodge almost all my questions, though I only make a comparative few.
So just answer the one highlighted question I have earlier in this post, and my Question 5 from my last two posts which I will repeat again here:
Question 5:
And the most important question of all. Do you believe a bullet only transfers momentum to a target while it is passing through the target?
Or do you believe a bullet can continue to transfer momentum to a target even after it’s left the body. Accounting for the gradual increase of speed of JFK’s backwards from 0 mph to 2 mph over the course of a quarter of a second.
This is a question you dodge because if you answer, yes, the bullet can still continue to transfer momentum to a head after it passes through it, you will sound like an idiot.
But if you say it couldn’t, then you have no explanation for JFK’s head acceleration lasting for a quarter of a second from z313 through z318.
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It is irrelevant who presented the film. The film makes it clear that the Neuromuscular Spasm does occur with goats. There is no reason to assume it wouldn’t happen with humans as well.
And on that note of resumed quackery, I think I need to stop wasting time trying to reason with you. There is no "assumption" that goat and human neuromuscular reactions will not be the same: we know from science, as Dr. Riley and Dr. Mantik have pointed out, that goat and human neurobiology and neurophysics are different. We also know from science that no human neuromuscular reaction is going to be fast enough, much less strong enough in such a localized manner, to cause the split-second and powerful reversal of motion we see with Kennedy's head and torso in the Zapruder film.
I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to waste any more time on this nonsense. As Zacharko says, the neuromuscular-reaction theory is "simply nonsense."
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And while I was not afraid to answer each of your many points, you are afraid to answer my comparatively few questions. So, you dodge them by saying you have grown tired of the conversation. Because you have no good answers.
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It should be noted that Dr. Mantik’s judgment is highly questionable, and this is not only apparent from the quotes you provided.
“Mantik doesn’t believe the things that I believe, therefore his judgment is questionable.”
::)
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“Mantik doesn’t believe the things that I believe, therefore his judgment is questionable.”
::)
The primary reason I think Dr. David Mantik’s judgment is questionable, is not because he disagrees with me, or even because he has so often agreed with Dr. James Fetzer, but because his fundamental approach to a problem.
The movement of JFK’s head is a problem that needs to be solved. Why does it move forward (z312-z313), then backwards (z313-z318)? What caused this?
We need to consider all possibilities, even the ones that may sound far-fetched to some people. Five hundred years ago, the possibility that there were some worlds that didn’t revolve around the Earth seemed pretty far-fetched. But the correct response is to not start by discarding all the far-fetched ideas. The correct response is to keep your mind open, and let the evidence determine what you believe. Not to decided before hand what is true and skip looking through telescopes, or looking for excuses to ignore what the telescope show. The telescopes, even though they are unperfect instruments, show points of light, appearing in different patterns near Jupiter. Sometimes three on the left and one on the right, or none on the left and three on the right. But never more than four.
The correct conclusion is that there are probably 4 bodies, large enough to see, which orbit around Jupiter, like the Moon orbits around the Earth. Not to say:
“But I already know what is true and what is not true. So, I already no that all objects in the sky orbit the Earth. And that is that.”
On the question of JFK’s head movement, his stance is:
“I already know everything about the human body. I know the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis cannot be true”.
This is the wrong approach. It should not be tossed out before one looks at the data.
The movement might be explained by Physics, by the “Frontal Bullet Hypothesis” or the “Jet Effect Hypothesis”. But if either hypothesis is correct, the head and body should move with constant momentum. Or the change in momentum has to be consistent with observed acceleration of the limousine. That is simple Physics. All change in momentum must take place within 1 to 2 milliseconds, while the bullet is within the head, if the “Frontal Bullet Hypothesis” is correct. Or within 5 to 10 milliseconds if the “Jet Effect Hypothesis” is correct, the time it would take for the head to explode.
But if the “Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis” is correct, then the head may accelerate during a more extensive period, like 250 milliseconds, and accelerate more than can be accounted for by the much smaller acceleration of the limousine. And this is what the Zapruder film shows, as measured carefully by Physics graduate student William Hoffman.
Anyone who accepts the “Frontal Bullet Hypothesis” or the “Jet Effect Hypothesis”, and did so before they looked at the William Hoffman data, on the speed of the head and the speed of the limousine, has questionable judgement. They are putting the cart before the horse. You must look at the data, then form your conclusions.
Anyone who agrees with me that the “Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis” is correct, but formed this conclusion without looking at the William Hoffman data, has questionable judgement.
Only someone who has looked at the data, sees that it shows acceleration of the head for over a quarter of a second, which cannot be explained by the much smaller acceleration of the limousine, and then concludes that the “Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis” is the best hypothesis, has good judgement.
None of us are going to be right about everything, but at least don’t’ put the cart before the horse.
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Earlier, Mr. Griffith made the following post:
Dr. David Mantik, who is both a physicist and a medical doctor (radiation oncology), explains some of the problems with the neuromuscular reaction theory:
The other traditional explanation for the head snap has been the "neuromuscular reaction." This was first proposed to the HSCA not by any neuroscience specialist, but by a wound ballistics expert based on his viewing old films of goats being shot in the head. To date no official testimony has been obtained from appropriate specialists (the neuroscientists) on this question. At the very least, interspecies differences in neurophysiology would leave this conclusion open at least to some doubt. In addition, the usual reaction to such brain trauma is not the highly directed movement observed in the Zapruder film but rather random muscular activity. Even Alvarez concluded that the highly directional recoil seen in the Zapruder film required the application of an external force.
Yet another objection to the decerebrate rigidity invoked by the HSCA is the time of onset; even the HSCA admitted that this would develop only after several minutes. I have been unable to find any literature references that even hint that this reaction could occur within milliseconds in human subjects-as is required for the head snap as seen in the film. Furthermore, in a large collaborative study (A.E. Walker, Cerebral Death, 1981, p. 33) with over 500 patients who experienced cerebral death, 70% were limp when observed just before death and an additional 10% became limp at about the time of death. At the very least, therefore, based on all of these considerations, the attempt by the HSCA to implicate a neuromuscular reaction is open to serious doubt. Moreover, the minimum requirement has never been met-the appropriate experts have never been officially consulted.
An additional argument against a neuromuscular reaction is that the observed reaction in the film is much too fast to fit with such a reflex. By the analysis of more than one study, within the space of one Zapruder frame interval (55 msec), the head clearly moves backward. Typical human reflex times are 114 to 112 second (250 to 500 msec). This is an extraordinary discrepancy-a factor of 5 to 10, which, all by itself, makes this scenario quite unlikely. (Assassination Science, pp. 281-282, PDF copy available online at https://www.krusch.com/books/kennedy/Assassination_Science.pdf)
But, as usual, Mr. Griffith only gave us partial information and leaves out very relevant information.
On the question of “Could a bullet from the front caused JFK’s head to move backwards in the manner seen in the Zapruder film”, Dr. Mantik said:
“I do not believe that a frontal shot, with any reasonable sized rifle or bullet, could produce the observed head snap — too much energy is required.”
James H. Fetzer, Ph.D., ed., Assassination Science (Chicago: Catfeet Press, 1998), p. 264.
On this point, I agree with Dr. Mantik. Although I think the gradual acceleration backwards over a quarter of a second is a more telling point then the too large momentum that JFK’s head and torso ended up with, to be explained by a bullet.
Yes, it’s true, Dr. Mantik does not think that JFK’s head movement could be explained by a neuromuscular spasm. But he also doesn’t think it can be explained by a bullet from the front.
So much for Griffith’s notion that “this violent backward motion” (actually a 2-mph backward motion) can only be explained by a frontal bullet.
What is Dr. Mantik’s solution to this motion? He goes with his joint Fetzer-Mantik theory that the Zapruder film was altered. Altered to give the impression to one that does not analyze the film that there was a frontal shot. Yes, this makes perfect sense. And I guessed altered all the other films and photographs to make them all match. And didn’t worry about any film or photograph that they might be unaware of.
If Griffith is going to use Mantik for support, he should note that in addition to rejecting a hypothesis that I support, he also rejects the hypothesis that Griffith supports.
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Earlier, Mr. Griffith made the following post:
But, as usual, Mr. Griffith only gave us partial information and leaves out very relevant information.
On the question of “Could a bullet from the front caused JFK’s head to move backwards in the manner seen in the Zapruder film”, Dr. Mantik said:
On this point, I agree with Dr. Mantik. Although I think the gradual acceleration backwards over a quarter of a second is a more telling point then the too large momentum that JFK’s head and torso ended up with, to be explained by a bullet.
Yes, it’s true, Dr. Mantik does not think that JFK’s head movement could be explained by a neuromuscular spasm. But he also doesn’t think it can be explained by a bullet from the front.
So much for Griffith’s notion that “this violent backward motion” (actually a 2-mph backward motion) can only be explained by a frontal bullet.
What is Dr. Mantik’s solution to this motion? He goes with his joint Fetzer-Mantik theory that the Zapruder film was altered. Altered to give the impression to one that does not analyze the film that there was a frontal shot. Yes, this makes perfect sense. And I guessed altered all the other films and photographs to make them all match. And didn’t worry about any film or photograph that they might be unaware of.
If Griffith is going to use Mantik for support, he should note that in addition to rejecting a hypothesis that I support, he also rejects the hypothesis that Griffith supports.
'But, as usual, Mr. Griffith only gave us partial information and leaves out very relevant information
Good call. That sums up CTers/JAQers (aka OAKers) everywhere. In short, they cheat.
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'But, as usual, Mr. Griffith only gave us partial information and leaves out very relevant information
Good call. That sums up CTers/JAQers (aka OAKers) everywhere. In short, they cheat.
Hello Bill
Yes. If I was a CTer wanting an opinion from an expert, like Dr. Zacharko, on the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis, it would only be fair to give one piece of evidence from the other side. And the principle piece of evidence that the proponents of the Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis proponents have is video of animals being shot through the brain, like the video of the goat that was shot in U. S. Army tests back in the 1948. No expert weighing in on a subject should ever give an opinion without knowing the principle evidence that they other side has. Never. With no exceptions.
Sometimes Michael Griffith can be pretty funny. In one of his articles back in 1997 called:
Compelling Evidence – A New Look at the Assassination of President Kennedy
He states on page 10 that:
Many WC apologists now assert that the fierce backward motion of Kennedy’s head and upper body was “a seizure-like neuromuscular reaction to major damage inflicted to nerve centers in the brain” combined with a so-called “jet effect’. Some goats were even shot in an attempt to demonstrate the plausibility of the neuromuscular-spasm theory. However, this explanation is highly speculative at best, and the goat tests do not explain the reaction of Kennedy’s head and body as seen in the Zapruder film. In addition, the speed of Kennedy’s reaction appears to rule out this theory.
The goat tests were run to bolster the neuromuscular-spasm theory? The “goat” films were made by the U. S. Army back in 1948, to learn about the immediate effects of bullets on humans, except they obviously could not use humans.
I like to go over Michael’s paragraph in more detail, just for fun, with my comments in boldface:
Many WC apologists
Why don’t we call CTers KGB apologists, (or whatever the KGB calls itself these days) since the KGB has been financially supporting CTers, like Mark Lane since the 1960’s. Certainly the CTers have been better financed by the KGB than LNers have been by the CIA. I suppose that, just like me, you’re still waiting for your first check.
now assert that the fierce backward motion of Kennedy’s head and upper body
Michael refers to the backward head and torso movement as “is violent and rapid” or “this violent backward motion” or “fierce backward motion”, even though the top speed did not quite get to 2 mph. Calling the motion: violent and rapid makes one tend to rule out the motion as being caused by anything other than a powerful rifle bullet. Calling it a 2-mph motion does not have that effect.
was “a seizure-like neuromuscular reaction to major damage inflicted to nerve centers in the brain” combined with a so-called “jet effect’.
Some goats were even shot in an attempt to demonstrate the plausibility of the neuromuscular-spasm theory.
I guess the government was planning this assassination much longer than we realized, clear back in 1948.
However, this explanation is highly speculative at best,
The Neuromuscular Spasm Hypothesis is speculative but the “Push from a Frontal Bullet Hypothesis” is not? All hypotheses are speculative until one checks them out with the evidence, like the Zapruder film. One does not eliminate hypotheses without first checking the evidence.
and explain the reaction of Kennedy’s head and body as seen in the Zapruder film.
I don’t think his grammar expresses what he is trying to say very well.
In addition, the speed of Kennedy’s reaction appears to rule out this theory.
The goat start moving parts in its body after 40 milliseconds, and this rules out Kennedy reaction which started after 55 milliseconds?
By the way “JAQers” and “OAKers” are new terms to me. What do they stand for?
Joe
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In case anyone is looking through this thread looking for information about Dr. Robert Zacharko, the following information was found by Tim Nickerson.
Dr Robert Zacharko is commonly referred to as a neuroscientist. Hence his expertise in judging on the matter of the neuromuscular spasm hypothesis. But is this really a good description of Dr. Zacharko? A neuroscientist?
What information do I find about Dr. Zacharko on the internet:
Robert M. Zacharko, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology
Department of Psychology
Carleton University
Ottawa, Ontario Canada
By the way, Dr. Zacharko passed away at the age of 63 on January 4, 2016.
The website for the Carleton Institute of Neuroscience says:
http://www3.carleton.ca/calendars/archives/grad/9798/SCIENCE/Institute_of_Neuroscience.htm
Neuroscience is an emerging academic discipline that includes physiological, anatomical, biochemical, and behavioural studies of the nervous system
It would appear that Dr. Zacharko concentrated on behavioural studies, hence his working for the university as a Professor of Psychology.
It doesn’t sound like he was specializing in studying the nitty ditty details of what can cause neurons to fire. But if you were feeling depressed, Dr. Zacharko was your go to guy.
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Earlier, Mr. Griffith made the following post:
But, as usual, Mr. Griffith only gave us partial information and leaves out very relevant information.
On the question of “Could a bullet from the front caused JFK’s head to move backwards in the manner seen in the Zapruder film”, Dr. Mantik said:
On this point, I agree with Dr. Mantik. Although I think the gradual acceleration backwards over a quarter of a second is a more telling point then the too large momentum that JFK’s head and torso ended up with, to be explained by a bullet.
Yes, it’s true, Dr. Mantik does not think that JFK’s head movement could be explained by a neuromuscular spasm. But he also doesn’t think it can be explained by a bullet from the front.
So much for Griffith’s notion that “this violent backward motion” (actually a 2-mph backward motion) can only be explained by a frontal bullet.
What is Dr. Mantik’s solution to this motion? He goes with his joint Fetzer-Mantik theory that the Zapruder film was altered. Altered to give the impression to one that does not analyze the film that there was a frontal shot. Yes, this makes perfect sense. And I guessed altered all the other films and photographs to make them all match. And didn’t worry about any film or photograph that they might be unaware of.
If Griffith is going to use Mantik for support, he should note that in addition to rejecting a hypothesis that I support, he also rejects the hypothesis that Griffith supports.
You are just non-stop propaganda and distortion, aren't you?
Folks, rather than sort through all of this guy's dishonest cherry-picking and distortions, just go read Dr. Mantik's writings, most of which are available for free online, and go read my various comments on the backward head movement in my articles. A short story even shorter: Dr. Mantik believes that the backward head movement that we now see in the Zapruder film could not have been caused by a bullet from the front (and, needless to say, not by a bullet from behind, either), and that the backward movement in the original film was not as dramatic as it now appears. Based on his examination of the skull x-rays, Dr. Mantik is certain that JFK's head was struck by a bullet from the front--he has found strong evidence of this in the skull x-rays--but that, again, no bullet from the front or back could have caused the backward head snap as it now appears in the Zapruder film.
Here is Dr. Mantik's website:
https://themantikview.com/
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You are just non-stop propaganda and distortion, aren't you?
Folks, rather than sort through all of this guy's dishonest cherry-picking and distortions, just go read Dr. Mantik's writings, most of which are available for free online, and go read my various comments on the backward head movement in my articles. A short story even shorter: Dr. Mantik believes that the backward head movement that we now see in the Zapruder film could not have been caused by a bullet from the front (and, needless to say, not by a bullet from behind, either), and that the backward movement in the original film was not as dramatic as it now appears. Based on his examination of the skull x-rays, Dr. Mantik is certain that JFK's head was struck by a bullet from the front--he has found strong evidence of this in the skull x-rays--but that, again, no bullet from the front or back could have caused the backward head snap as it now appears in the Zapruder film.
Here is Dr. Mantik's website:
https://themantikview.com/
No, I was accurate. Dr. Mantik made two claims:
1. A neuromuscular spasm could not have caused JFK’s head to move back, in the manner we see in the Zapruder film.
This is what you made everyone aware of in your posts.
2. A bullet from the front could not have caused JFK’s head to move back, in the manner we see in the Zapruder film.
This is something you kept a secret from us, until I made a post about it.
You should have mentioned that your champion said that the backward movement could not have been made by either the neuromuscular spasm nor a frontal bullet, in the manner seen in the Zapruder film.
And finally, I mentioned that Dr. Mantik got around this contradiction by saying the Zapruder film is a fake and that he believed that JFK was hit in the head by a frontal bullet.
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Always has been although one of the less gifted.
BTW, all this Neuro Nutter Nonsense is pure speculation. JFK simply fainted, back and to the left...
You’re just trying to draw attention from the fact that Mr. Griffith referred to a professor of Psychology as a “Neuroscientist” to make it appear he had real expert backing for the notion that the neuromuscular spasm could not have happened to JFK.
Question:
Do you think Mr. Griffith was being dishonest by always referring to Dr. Zacharko as a neuroscientist?
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I should add one more point for clarification, a point that has been made by several scholars, including Dr. Mantik: JFK's backward movement consists of two movement--first the backward movement of his head, and then, logically enough, the backward movement of his shoulders and upper body. Itek discussed this fact in their study. Dr. Mantik says that we simply do not know how much the editors exaggerated the speed of these movements but that the original movements were certainly markedly less rapid.
Way back in 1998, based on Dr. Mantik's and others' research, I said that the backward head snap was actually evidence of alteration because the movement was too rapid to have occurred in the real world because it could have been caused by a bullet, a muscle spasm, or a jet effect.
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I should add one more point for clarification, a point that has been made by several scholars, including Dr. Mantik: JFK's backward movement consists of two movement--first the backward movement of his head, and then, logically enough, the backward movement of his shoulders and upper body. Itek discussed this fact in their study. Dr. Mantik says that we simply do not know how much the editors exaggerated the speed of these movements but that the original movements were certainly markedly less rapid.
Way back in 1998, based on Dr. Mantik's and others' research, I said that the backward head snap was actually evidence of alteration because the movement was too rapid to have occurred in the real world because it could have been caused by a bullet, a muscle spasm, or a jet effect.
The next time you need to make one more point for clarification, make certain that the Dr. Zacharko who you referred to as a “Neuroscientist” was actually a “Professor of Psychology”. Otherwise, people may get the mistaken impression that your “expert” had a lot more expertise on the matter in question, “neuromuscular spasms”, than he really had.
And this thread is about Dr. Zacharko, not Dr. Mantik.
Question:
Do you have any explanation as to why you always referred to Dr. Zacharko as a “Neuroscientist” and not by a more accurate label, a “Professor of Psychology”?
I might note that this is a common pattern with you. A backwards of 2 mph becomes “thrown back violently”. A “Professor of Psychology” becomes a “Neuroscientist”. You always choose the most misleading phrase to help bolster a weak argument.
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Always has been although one of the less gifted.
BTW, all this Neuro Nutter Nonsense is pure speculation. JFK simply fainted, back and to the left...
I don't know what type of goats the army used in 1948 when 10,000 of them were shot while being filmed, to get insights on what happens when various parts of the body are wounded by bullets. I don't image they would have used "fainting goats", otherwise known as a Myotonic goat. These goats “faint” when startled. These reactions cannot be induced in a goat that is already unconscious.
In any case, the observed reaction in the fainting goat is nothing like the movements seen in the 1948 goat film. And that goat was given an anesthetic to make the goat totally unconscious, so it could not have been startled.
By the way, humans can also have a related disorder called congenital myotonia, although in humans, this does not result in “fainting”.
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I have no dog in this race, this is just one big rabbit hole.
It doesn't at all effect that the WC was a coverup and the evidence couldn't support their preconceived conclusions.
That's what I would be concerned with if I were you.
BTW, JFK wore a back brace, were the goats braced?
JFK’s back brace won’t cause his head to accelerate backwards, at a faster rate than the torso. If his body’s acceleration backwards was caused by the back brace (which I greatly doubt) his head would not have been accelerating backwards faster than the torso. Not unless he was wearing a neck brace as well.
No, it wasn’t the back brace. No, it wasn’t the limousine accelerating. The acceleration of the head backwards during a quarter second, (z313 through z318), the right elbow shooting upwards (z315 through z318) by six inches, could only be caused by JFK’s muscles. But CTers will continue to look for some other explanation, any other explanation, for this movement. Maybe it is time for CTers to call upon the supernatural and suggest a poltergeist.
In any case, this is a thread about Dr. Zacharko, so if you want to talk about the back brace or anything else, please start up another thread.
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Question:
If you want an opinion from a neuroscientist on whether JFK’s backward movement is caused by a neuromuscular spasm, why not go ask a real neuroscientist?
Why ask a Psychology professor, who has been described as a Professor of Psychology, working with the Department of Psychology, as described below;
https://books.google.com/books?id=WBzaBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=%22robert+m+zacharko%22+%22professor+of+psychology%22+%22department+of+psychology%22&source=bl&ots=mH3XW37yd5&sig=ACfU3U2lwRX7sX8akU0brivswXb7UUhPXQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj5wu3GpbDqAhUtKDQIHSIEAO8Q6AEwAHoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22robert%20m%20zacharko%22%20%22professor%20of%20psychology%22%20%22department%20of%20psychology%22&f=false
And in his obituary:
He finished his career as a Professor in the Department of Psychology at Carleton University.
https://heritagefh.ca/tribute/details/338/Robert-Zacharko/obituary.html
Yes, the obituary also says:
Post-graduate studies followed at University of Saskatoon where he received his doctorate specializing in the study of neuroscience.
But as the website a Carleton makes clear:
Neuroscience is an emerging academic discipline that includes physiological, anatomical, biochemical, and behavioural studies of the nervous system.
http://www3.carleton.ca/calendars/archives/grad/9798/SCIENCE/Institute_of_Neuroscience.htm
A “Neuroscientist” can be an expert in either physiological, anatomical, biochemical studies, fields of use in evaluating the neuromuscular spasm hypothesis. but also includes behavioral studies, i.e.: Psychology, a field of study that is not so pertinent.
Question:
Why not use a “Neuroscientist” who really has some expertise in either physiological, anatomical or biochemical studies to decide on this question?
Answer:
Because Mr. Griffith could find none. But he could find a Psychology professor who would give a favorable opinion.