JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Alan Ford on May 27, 2020, 02:12:38 AM
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Friends, this woman has been identified by some researchers as Ms Carolyn Arnold----------
(https://i.imgur.com/kTHtot4.jpg)
Here is (the heavily pregnant) Ms Arnold in the Depository building that Christmas----------
(https://i.imgur.com/Fh6USZx.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/HpTcyEy.jpg)
Is the woman standing in front of the Depository really the same person as the woman in the color photos?
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The TSBD looks like it was a fun place to work.
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Friends, this woman has been identified by some researchers as Ms Carolyn Arnold----------
(https://i.imgur.com/kTHtot4.jpg)
Here is (the heavily pregnant) Ms Arnold in the Depository building that Christmas----------
(https://i.imgur.com/Fh6USZx.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/HpTcyEy.jpg)
Is the woman standing in front of the Depository really the same person as the woman in the color photos?
I'd say yes.
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If you compare the 2nd and 3rd picture of Arnold to her current Facebook picture as Carolyn J Johnston, you will see that they depict the same person.
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Obviously both women are pregnant, but apart from that? Am honestly not seeing what facial resemblance justifies an identification of the woman standing before the Depository as Ms Arnold........
(https://i.imgur.com/Av5df0Q.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/nFAvAFX.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/Fh6USZx.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/HpTcyEy.jpg)
Besides, this woman appears to be holding a pair of glasses and a pen/cil?
(https://i.imgur.com/n08pn3G.jpg)
A reporter? Ms Peggy Simpson perhaps?
Thumb1:
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Friends, one reason I'm keen to get a confirmed image of Ms Arnold from 11/22/63 is an intriguing recollection in Mr Ronald B. Fischer's 11/22 statement to the Sheriff's Dept.
Mr Fischer--------------you will recall---------------was standing with Mr Bob Edwards on the southwest corner of Elm & Houston. Some 30 seconds before the motorcade came by, they both noticed a sandy-haired man in the sixth floor window.
But not just that!------------------
"I do remember one peculiar thing happened just at the time I saw the man up there. There was a girl walked in the Texas School Book Depository Building, a rather tall girl, and she looked to me like she might be an employee in that building. She was walking in while everyone else had been coming out."
I wonder might this have been none other than Ms Carolyn Arnold? Did she-------just before JFK's arrival-------leave the street and go back to the front entrance in order to view the parade from a higher vantage point?
My grounds for that very specific surmise is this apparently erroneous detail in Mr Bill Shelley's March 18 FBI interview report...................
"I recall that Wesley Frazier, Mrs . Sarah Stanton and Mrs . Carolyn Arnold, all employees of the Texas School Book Depository, were also standing in this entrance way near me at the time Pres. Kennedy was shot."
Perhaps this is no error at all!
One is struck by Ms Arnold's rather defensive reaction to Messrs Earl Golz and Anthony Summers when----------in 1978-----------they asked her about the 11/25/63 FBI interview report that has her claiming to have seen Mr Oswald behind the front glass door at the entrance several minutes before the assassination: "Why would I be looking back inside the building? That doesn’t make any sense to me."
If she was the woman seen by Mr Fischer just before the assassination, it would make plenty sense. Might she have noticed Mr Oswald behind the glass door then, in front of her as she took to the steps--------------------only to regret in later years having gone on the record about the fact? From the 11/25/63 FBI interview report:
(https://i.imgur.com/wxnSeUF.jpg)
Note the vagueness of her stated location ("in front of the building")----------could mean front entranceway, could mean street...
What I am suggesting is:
A. Ms Arnold told the FBI 11/25 of TWO sightings of Mr Oswald-------------
1. Second floor lunchroom a few minutes pre-assassination
2. Front entrance at time of motorcade's arrival
B. The FBI suppressed sighting #1 and recorded a distorted (in terms of altered timestamp, fudged location-of-Ms-Arnold and dash of uncertainty-as-to-the-identity-of-the-man) version of sighting #2
C. Ms Arnold was------in 1978-------outraged to hear of the suppression, but no less anxious to back off any notion of having seen Mr Oswald through the front glass door. (By March '64, she had already walked back her walk back to the front entrance: giving as her location for the assassination her location shortly before the assassination---------i.e. out on the street with Ms Dragoo, Ms Johnson & co.)
I find it hard to see why the FBI------------in their zeal to bury the lunchroom sighting------------would invent a claim involving, of all things, Mr Oswald standing in the building vestibule. It had to have come from somewhere. I mean, they could have come up with a much less anxiety-inducing location!
Thumb1:
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Friends, one reason I'm keen to get a confirmed image of Ms Arnold from 11/22/63 is an intriguing recollection in Mr Ronald B. Fischer's 11/22 statement to the Sheriff's Dept.
Mr Fischer--------------you will recall---------------was standing with Mr Bob Edwards on the southwest corner of Elm & Houston. Some 30 seconds before the motorcade came by, they both noticed a sandy-haired man in the sixth floor window.
But not just that!------------------
"I do remember one peculiar thing happened just at the time I saw the man up there. There was a girl walked in the Texas School Book Depository Building, a rather tall girl, and she looked to me like she might be an employee in that building. She was walking in while everyone else had been coming out."
I wonder might this have been none other than Ms Carolyn Arnold? Did she-------just before JFK's arrival-------leave the street and go back to the front entrance in order to view the parade from a higher vantage point?
My grounds for that very specific surmise is this apparently erroneous detail in Mr Bill Shelley's March 18 FBI interview report...................
"I recall that Wesley Frazier, Mrs . Sarah Stanton and Mrs . Carolyn Arnold, all employees of the Texas School Book Depository, were also standing in this entrance way near me at the time Pres. Kennedy was shot."
Perhaps this is no error at all!
One is struck by Ms Arnold's rather defensive reaction to Messrs Earl Golz and Anthony Summers when----------in 1978-----------they asked her about the 11/25/63 FBI interview report that has her claiming to have seen Mr Oswald behind the front glass door at the entrance several minutes before the assassination: "Why would I be looking back inside the building? That doesn’t make any sense to me."
If she was the woman seen by Mr Fischer just before the assassination, it would make plenty sense. Might she have seen Mr Oswald behind that glass door then--------------------only to regret in later years having gone on the record about the fact? From the 11/25/63 FBI interview report:
(https://i.imgur.com/wxnSeUF.jpg)
Note the vagueness of her stated location ("in front of the building")----------could mean front entranceway, could mean street...
What I am suggesting is:
A. Ms Arnold told the FBI 11/25 of TWO sightings of Mr Oswald-------------
1. Second floor lunchroom a few minutes pre-assassination
2. Front entrance at time of motorcade's arrival
B. The FBI suppressed sighting #1 and recorded a distorted (in terms of timestamp) version of sighting #2
C. Ms Arnold was------in 1978-------outraged to hear of the suppression, but no less anxious to back off any notion of having seen Mr Oswald through the front glass door.
I find it hard to see why the FBI------------in their zeal to bury the lunchroom sighting------------would invent a claim involving, of all things, Mr Oswald standing in the building vestibule. It had to have come from somewhere. I mean, they could have come up with a much less anxiety-inducing location!
Friends ‐-‐------------------------------------- , Romans and Countrymen?
I thought the vestibule was that weird little enclosed juncture between the second floor "landing"/working area, the lunchroom, and the hallway.
What would YOU call that weird little area?
An alcove?
A niche?
A moveable feast?
-- MWT ;)
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Why not ask Carolyn yourself: https://www.facebook.com/carolyn.j.johnston.3
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Why not ask Carolyn yourself: https://www.facebook.com/carolyn.j.johnston.3
He kont.
He's too keen.
-- MWT ;)
"Bugger all, Ms Johnson, why did you lie, lie, lie about whom you saw or did not see in the THE VESTIBULE? I'm quite keen to find out if you ken wot I mean."
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Mr Graves was a pretty decent researcher before he lost his marbles. Let's not let this obviously lonely man derail yet another thread.
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Why not ask Carolyn yourself: https://www.facebook.com/carolyn.j.johnston.3
Since her 1978 communications with Messrs Golz and Summers, Mr Arnold (now Johnston) has steadfastly refused to get drawn into communications on the case. It would be nice to think that might change some day, but I don't believe it's fair to harass the woman.
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Mr Graves was a pretty decent researcher before he lost his marbles. Let's not let this obviously lonely man derail yet another thread.
Let's, as in "Let us"?
Hrumph!
I dare say!
Wot?
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Now!
From the March '64 FBI interview report on Ms Arnold:
"On November 22, 1963, at the time President Kennedy was shot, I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building. I was with Mr O. V. Campbell...; Mrs. L. C. (Bonnie) Richey...; Mrs. Barney (Betty) Dragoo...; Mrs Don (Virgie) Baker nee Rackley...; and Miss Judy Johnson... at the time President Kennedy was shot."
I find it curious that, when we read the corresponding reports for the individuals here named, they all contain what her report does not: clear statement as to location well away from the Depository front entrance:
1. Campbell: "next to the curb on Elm street adjacent to the street signal light"
2. Richey: "in the roadway directly south of the Texas School Book Depository Building"
3. Dragoo: "just across the street in front of the building entrance"
4. Rackley: "on the edge of the pedestrian parade line at a point approximately thirty feet directly in front of the main entrance to the Depository Building"
5. Johnson: "the southwest corner of Elm and Houston Streets... on the sidewalk near the edge of Elm Street"
But all we get for Ms Arnold: "in front of the Texas School Book Depository building"...
If she was indeed the woman seen by Mr Ronald Fischer walking back into the front entrance just before Pres. Kennedy passed by, then the individuals she names and who name her (Mr Campbell, Ms Richey, etc.) may plausibly have been so focused on the approaching motorcade that they simply did not notice her leave for the front steps.
And! It's just as possible people on those front steps were likewise so focused on the approaching motorcade that they did not notice her returning to them. But---------Mr Bill Shelley did!
Shelley: "I recall that Wesley Frazier, Mrs. Sarah Stanton and Mrs. Carolyn Arnold, all employees of the Texas School Book Depository, were also standing In this entrance way near me at the time Pres. Kennedy was shot"
Thumb1:
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So!
If Ms Carolyn Arnold was on the front steps at the time of the actual shooting, then... where exactly on those steps is she?
Suggestion #1!: Could she actually be Prayer Man?
Suggestion #2!: Could she be the person we see in the Towner film just beside (east of) Mr Carl Edward Jones at the bottom of the entranceway waving something at the First Couple as they pass? (Please disregard arrow---the waving I'm talking about is down & to the left of it):
(https://i.imgur.com/aXVg0Hn.gif)
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Mr Dom Bonafede, New York Herald Tribune quoting Mr Lovelady on the Altgens photograph, 24 May 1964:
'Several people saw me. That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor.'"
Which lady in the Altgens photograph is Mr Lovelady pointing out to Mr Bonafede when he says this?
(https://i.imgur.com/gQZU4t2.jpg)
He can't mean Ms Madie Reese, who worked for the MacMillan Company on the third floor!
(https://i.imgur.com/vumlSxc.jpg)
So-----------------who?
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How do we know Carolyn J Johnston is Carolyn Arnold?
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How do we know Carolyn J Johnston is Carolyn Arnold?
If Carolyn Arnold was pregnant on 11/22/1963 she would be at least 77 years old now.
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According to a statement she made in March of 1964, she listed her age at 20 with a date of birth of 06/01/43. She will be 77 years old on Monday. If you look close enough at some of the pictures on her facebook page, you will see folks posing with her that have the last name of "Arnold" - her former husband's name. I think you can safely assume that Carolyn Johnston is the former Carolyn Arnold of TSBD fame. It is also stated as such in the Earl Goltz article and lists her residence as Stephenville, Texas which is also listed as her residence on her facebook page. While I understand that folks may be reluctant to attempt to contact her, she is not getting any younger and along with Arnold Rowland (residing in Oregon)(about a year or two younger than Carolyn) represent two critical witnesses still among us whose potential significance should outweigh the fact that they may initially dismayed hearing from a well meaning researcher.
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I answered the man's question and provided my opinion without casting aspersions anywhere. I now see why no one will bother to discuss anything of importance with you.
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Friends, what I am suggesting----------and it's only a suggestion at this point-----------is that Ms Arnold may be THE most important witness of all. IF she was on those steps, then we are dealing with the 'investigating' authorities' witness from hell.
For she was confirming BOTH of the key claims made by Mr Oswald in custody but kept from the public:
(https://i.imgur.com/Rtd7NfM.jpg)
Mr Oswald in the lunchroom before the motorcade? Check!
Mr Oswald at the front entrance for the motorcade? Check!
No wonder she wasn't called to testify before the Warren Commission!
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So!
Mr Dom Bonafede, New York Herald Tribune quoting Mr Lovelady on the Altgens photograph, 24 May 1964:
'Several people saw me. That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor.'"
Which lady shielding her eyes in the Altgens photograph can Mr Lovelady be pointing out to Mr Bonafede when he says this?
(https://i.imgur.com/gQZU4t2.jpg)
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I just want to verify something. You believe that woman on the Facebook account is 77 years old?
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Mr. BALL - That you saw Oswald again at approximately 11 a.m. on the sixth floor?.
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - But you didn't see him again after that, is that your testimony?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Is that the truth?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right. ???
"Dougherty was not reliable, due to no fault of his own."
---------Mr Tim Nickerson, April 14, 2019 https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=1900.0
:D
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So!
Mr Dom Bonafede, New York Herald Tribune quoting Mr Lovelady on the Altgens photograph, 24 May 1964:
'Several people saw me. That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor.'"
Which lady shielding her eyes in the Altgens photograph can Mr Lovelady be pointing out to Mr Bonafede when he says this?
(https://i.imgur.com/gQZU4t2.jpg)
Anyone? :-\
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"Dougherty was not reliable, due to no fault of his own."
---------Mr Tim Nickerson, April 14, 2019 https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=1900.0
:D
I stand by that.
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I stand by that.
So Mr Dougherty's claim before the WC not to have seen Mr Oswald after seeing him at approx. 11am on the sixth floor is not reliable. Got it! Thumb1:
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You don’t know which was true. You don’t even know if the Toff double-hearsay is correct.
I asked earlier about whether the Toff interview was witnessed or verified but didn't get an answer. What's the provenance?
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Your made-up BS is not “substance “.
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So!
Mr Dom Bonafede, New York Herald Tribune quoting Mr Lovelady on the Altgens photograph, 24 May 1964:
'Several people saw me. That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor.'"
Which lady shielding her eyes in the Altgens photograph can Mr Lovelady be pointing out to Mr Bonafede when he says this?
(https://i.imgur.com/gQZU4t2.jpg)
No one? :-X
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So!
Mr Dom Bonafede, New York Herald Tribune quoting Mr Lovelady on the Altgens photograph, 24 May 1964:
'Several people saw me. That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor.'"
Which lady shielding her eyes in the Altgens photograph can Mr Lovelady be pointing out to Mr Bonafede when he says this?
(https://i.imgur.com/gQZU4t2.jpg)
Friends, as we ponder this little riddle, let us dispose of one little myth that has for years now bedevilled many decent folks' understanding of the configuration of persons in that front doorway..............
The man under the green arrow is not---------------I repeat: NOT---------------Mr Bill Shelley:
(https://i.imgur.com/kzysKkS.jpg)
Don't believe me? Read!
(https://i.imgur.com/YafDDIh.jpg)
For those who struggle with challenging instances of English language use (e.g. the impossibly ambiguous "Then went outside to watch the P. parade"), let me explain what "was not in view of the camera" means--------------
Ain't nowhere to be seen in the Altgens photograph!
So! With that out of the way, let us return to our question........
Which second-floor female employee shielding her eyes in the Altgens photograph can Mr Lovelady be pointing out to Mr Bonafede?
Thumb1:
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(https://i.imgur.com/YafDDIh.jpg)
For those who struggle with challenging instances of English language use (e.g. the impossibly ambiguous "Then went outside to watch the P. parade"), let me explain what "was not in view of the camera" means--------------
Ain't nowhere to be seen in the Altgens photograph!
Well!
Knowing that Mr Bill Shelley is NOT the man-wearing-a-tie in Altgens just behind Mr Lovelady allows us to ascertain that the two white men (other than Mr Lovelady) shown in the doorway in Altgens--------------
(https://i.imgur.com/hGwhYlN.jpg)
-------------are Mr Joe Molina and Mr Otis Williams. Thumb1:
So!
Mr Lovelady looks at this photo and, pointing to one of the people in the doorway shielding their eyes, states confidently that she works on the second floor.
Who is he pointing to? It cannot be pink arrow (Ms Madie Reese: female, but not second floor). It cannot be blue arrow (Mr Williams or Mr Molina: not female). Which would seem to leave only orange arrow-------------
(https://i.imgur.com/ps2Tx2S.jpg)
If this is the person Mr Lovelady is pointing to, then he must know that this person is either Ms Sarah Stanton or Ms Pauline Sanders.
Yes? No?
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That was number 743. He's racking them up at quite a clip.