JFK Assassination Forum

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Alan Ford on May 04, 2020, 01:57:17 AM

Title: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 04, 2020, 01:57:17 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/Af0jBO4.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Bill Chapman on May 04, 2020, 04:24:53 AM

Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on May 04, 2020, 10:25:28 AM
Who said it was Lovelady?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on May 04, 2020, 12:20:47 PM
Who said it was Lovelady?

If that is Lovelady, what happened to the chequered shirt he was wearing in Altgens 6?

Also, Lovelady and Shelley went to the railroad yard after the shots were fired and did not enter the TSBD until several minutes later, so, if this is Lovelady, how did he get to the 6th floor and what was he doing there?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 04, 2020, 02:36:12 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/Af0jBO4.jpg)

I believe the man is Jack Dougherty.....
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Peter Goth on May 04, 2020, 02:44:53 PM
I believe the man is Jack Dougherty.....

really?
post a picture of Dougherty and we can compare
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Peter Goth on May 04, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people on the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in.

Mr. BALL - And you stayed on the first floor then?
Mr. LOVELADY - I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL - Did you take them up there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; I sure did.

It looks like the shirt BNL told the FBI he wore.
How many Oswald look a likes are walking around this place?

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/gM60iXdz1pjqoiI56wqI-BAhUvvxyc-FLBI6pOvLa9G_J2WoAEgjY2K6QlFq_aJCbpF3lQOc6ScXLlH1CCJ-hBgM8CIbxf2QoQwH9J2BWPRTzmW-UKZxrw)(https://i.imgur.com/Af0jBO4.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on May 04, 2020, 03:11:22 PM
Didn't Billy Bob have a beard the day of?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 04, 2020, 03:13:45 PM
Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people on the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in.

Mr. BALL - And you stayed on the first floor then?
Mr. LOVELADY - I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL - Did you take them up there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; I sure did.

It looks like the shirt BNL told the FBI he wore.
How many Oswald look a likes are walking around this place?

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/gM60iXdz1pjqoiI56wqI-BAhUvvxyc-FLBI6pOvLa9G_J2WoAEgjY2K6QlFq_aJCbpF3lQOc6ScXLlH1CCJ-hBgM8CIbxf2QoQwH9J2BWPRTzmW-UKZxrw)(https://i.imgur.com/Af0jBO4.jpg)

Although the man does resemble Billy Lovelady...... The man in the photo seems to be a " big strong fellow" ( Roy Truly's description of JD) like Jack Dougherty .
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 04, 2020, 05:14:13 PM
  You can see law enforcement is all over the TSBD = that still frame being well after the assassination. This means there was time for people in general to enter/re-enter the TSBD. The thing I find interesting is if you see the Entire Film Clip, the guy bobs down below the boxes in front of him when he sees the camera is aimed at him.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 04, 2020, 06:46:33 PM
  You can see law enforcement is all over the TSBD = that still frame being well after the assassination. This means there was time for people in general to enter/re-enter the TSBD. The thing I find interesting is if you see the Entire Film Clip, the guy bobs down below the boxes in front of him when he sees the camera is aimed at him.

In the clip in Bill Chapman's post or elsewhere?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 04, 2020, 07:39:07 PM
I believe this clip------------

(https://i.imgur.com/Af0jBO4.jpg)

--------------shows the same part of the sixth floor as that shown in this 11/22/63 photograph:

(https://i.imgur.com/6GIzEQM.jpg)

In both cases the DOWN stairs to the fifth floor are to the cameraman's left.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 04, 2020, 07:47:55 PM
In the clip in Bill Chapman's post or elsewhere?

   The Chapman provided clip is Only maybe 2+ seconds in length. It is only a snippet of the clip I have seen. The film clip I have seen is maybe 5 seconds longer and Not as clear as the one Chapman provided. That Chapman snippet is Very Clear.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 04, 2020, 07:50:28 PM
   The Chapman provided clip is Only maybe 2 seconds in length. It is only a snippet of the clip I have seen. The film clip I have seen is maybe 5 seconds longer and Not as clear as the one Chapman provided. That Chapman snippet is Very Clear.

Do you know where you saw it?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 04, 2020, 07:53:58 PM
Do you know where you saw it?

   I have seen the clip posted on this Forum. At the time the clarity of the film clip was so sketchy that it was being debated as to whether we were actually looking at Oswald hiding in "plain sight". His ducking down behind that stack of boxes adding to the alleged Oswald possibility.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 04, 2020, 07:57:21 PM
   I have seen the clip posted on this Forum. At the time the clarity of the film clip was so sketchy that it was being debated as to whether we were actually looking at Oswald hiding in "plain sight". His ducking down behind that stack of boxes adding to the alleged Oswald possibility.

Would be interested to see it. The person doesn't seem to be hiding at all in the short earlier clip earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 04, 2020, 08:20:27 PM
Would be interested to see it. The person doesn't seem to be hiding at all in the short earlier clip earlier in this thread.

    The snippet we are looking at is only 2+ seconds in length and replayed over & over. When viewing the Longer version, the speculation was that once that guy saw the camera, he then ducked down behind the stack of boxes.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 04, 2020, 08:56:25 PM
   I have seen the clip posted on this Forum. At the time the clarity of the film clip was so sketchy that it was being debated as to whether we were actually looking at Oswald hiding in "plain sight". His ducking down behind that stack of boxes adding to the alleged Oswald possibility.

Royell, I haven't seen the guy "ducking down behind the stack of boxes" where have you seen the clip?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 04, 2020, 09:02:23 PM
Royell, I haven't seen the guy "ducking down behind the stack of boxes" where have you seen the clip?

   Saw it on this Forum prior to that major hack when everything was leveled.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 04, 2020, 09:19:38 PM
   Saw it on this Forum prior to that major hack when everything was leveled.

I don't recall seeing Jack Dougherty acting like a Jack in the box....   But whoever this man was he was very tall ......  He certainly fits Truly's description of Jack Dougherty

Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 04, 2020, 10:09:18 PM
I don't recall seeing Jack Dougherty acting like a Jack in the box....   But whoever this man was he was very tall ......  He certainly fits Truly's description of Jack Dougherty

    The previous copy of this footage that I saw, made it difficult to clearly see the shirt this guy is wearing. It looks like he is wearing a sweatshirt over a tee shirt. With regard to the guys that were laying flooring/plywood on the 6th floor that day, a sweatshirt would be fitting attire. When they Zoom in on this guy, it appears he is talking. His jabbering would fit if he were simultaneously being asked different questions by different members of law enforcement. Possible questions coming from different sources would also fit his head rotation. 
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 04, 2020, 10:26:27 PM
    The previous copy of this footage that I saw, made it difficult to clearly see the shirt this guy is wearing. It looks like he is wearing a sweatshirt over a tee shirt. With regard to the guys that were laying flooring/plywood on the 6th floor that day, a sweatshirt would be fitting attire. When they Zoom in on this guy, it appears he is talking. His jabbering would fit if he were simultaneously being asked different questions by different members of law enforcement. Possible questions coming from different sources would also fit his head rotation.

A sweat shirt? when some employees were working in their Tee shirts?......But do agree that the guy seems to be wearing two shirts..... a Tee shirt and another shirt.

The film clip is very brief....and it MAY have been taken before the rifle was discovered...... The guy seems to be very nervous and is watching to see who came up the stairs behind him.   The brightly lit windows over the man's right shoulder are the windows that were in the west NORTH wall at the top of the stairs in the NW corner of the sixth floor. ( The west elevator is visible)  But Boone needed a flashlight to see down at the bottom of the chasm of boxes when he spotted a small portion of the butt of the carcano which was lying ON THE FLOOR  ( not jammed between boxes of books)    Perhaps tall guy knew the rifle was there and was nervous about it being found.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Bill Chapman on May 04, 2020, 10:48:50 PM
Buell said Lovelady was 'a little runt'
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Bill Chapman on May 04, 2020, 10:53:14 PM
   Saw it on this Forum prior to that major hack when everything was leveled.

Sure. And the dog ate your your homework.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Bill Chapman on May 04, 2020, 11:02:44 PM
I believe the man is Jack Dougherty.....

Well, that input certainly moves the case right along
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Bill Chapman on May 04, 2020, 11:10:32 PM
   The Chapman provided clip is Only maybe 2+ seconds in length. It is only a snippet of the clip I have seen. The film clip I have seen is maybe 5 seconds longer and Not as clear as the one Chapman provided. That Chapman snippet is Very Clear.

maybe 2+ seconds in length

 ???

The snippet is 1:15 in length
Look at the bottom left corner

(https://i.postimg.cc/YCjqBy3K/lovelady-1-15-6th-flr.png)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on May 04, 2020, 11:21:09 PM
From the Jack Daugherty thread....Mr Scully supplies possible images of JD----
 
(http://jfkdebate.com/images/ShelleyCakebreadWhatHasScully.jpg)

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1435.msg38636.html#msg38636

I don't think our "Who is this" is JD.
Alan Ford posted a Sunset High photo ---I don't think it is Daugherty ... Looks like the love child of Gumby and Joe Palooka---

(https://i.imgur.com/qqFd0Py.jpg)

Still alive is Wes Frazier he could make an ID?
Jack Daugherty testified. He said that Bill Shelly told him Oswald had this big package.
Bill Shelly testified and no such mention was made by him.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 04, 2020, 11:34:46 PM
maybe 2+ seconds in length

 ???

The snippet is 1:15 in length
Look at the bottom left corner

(https://i.postimg.cc/YCjqBy3K/lovelady-1-15-6th-flr.png)

   Come on Chappy, You are better than this. NOT Much, but a smidge better. We are seeing the same snippet over and over and over with a Zoom involved.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Bill Chapman on May 05, 2020, 02:58:35 AM
   Come on Chappy, You are better than this. NOT Much, but a smidge better. We are seeing the same snippet over and over and over with a Zoom involved.

Shhhhhh..
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 05, 2020, 08:36:28 AM
Looks like Bill Lovelady wearing a tee shirt to me. Don't see any nervousness or thought of hiding. Can't find any longer clip on the internet.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 05, 2020, 12:22:35 PM
I don't recall seeing Jack Dougherty acting like a Jack in the box....   But whoever this man was he was very tall ......  He certainly fits Truly's description of Jack Dougherty

Not if he's standing on a box or something. And the box in front may be making him look bulkier than he is.

According to a document found by Mr Scully, Mr Jack Dougherty had blond hair.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 05, 2020, 12:24:06 PM
From the Jack Daugherty thread....Mr Scully supplies possible images of JD----
 
(http://jfkdebate.com/images/ShelleyCakebreadWhatHasScully.jpg)

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1435.msg38636.html#msg38636

That's Mr Bill Shelley.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 05, 2020, 12:29:13 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/STepePN.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/KSIxinh.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 05, 2020, 12:38:05 PM
Looks like Bill Lovelady wearing a tee shirt to me. Don't see any nervousness or thought of hiding. Can't find any longer clip on the internet.

Hmmm... I always assumed he was Mr Lovelady. But where's the conspicuous bald spot?

(https://i.imgur.com/mgbpCxR.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/fInYmo9.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/gb0CndA.jpg)

And it looks to me like he has a light-colored garment on over his tshirt.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 05, 2020, 12:47:17 PM
When he turns his head to the right, the back of his head blends in with the hat of the man behind him. This gives him a 'ponytail' effect!

(https://i.imgur.com/pZkPjT2.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/mgbpCxR.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 05, 2020, 12:53:57 PM
Hmmm... I always assumed he was Mr Lovelady. But where's the conspicuous bald spot?

(https://i.imgur.com/mgbpCxR.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/fInYmo9.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/gb0CndA.jpg)

And it looks to me like he has a light-colored garment on over his tshirt.

The image is quite fuzzy and the lighting poor so hard to draw too many conclusions re the bald spot I think. There dies seem to be a colour change in the tee shirt that looks like another garment. Is the another image of the tee shirt Lovelady wore to compare? Have seen glimpses under the red patterned shirt.

The face and profile look like Lovelady and he said he was on the sixth floor but open to different ideas.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Gerry Down on May 05, 2020, 01:04:23 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/STepePN.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/KSIxinh.jpg)

What is the green arrow pointing to? Does the timber elevator gate roll up into that?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 05, 2020, 01:05:11 PM
The image is quite fuzzy and the lighting poor so hard to draw too many conclusions re the bald spot I think. There dies seem to be a colour change in the tee shirt that looks like another garment. Is the another image of the tee shirt Lovelady wore to compare? Have seen glimpses under the red patterned shirt.

This is the best we've got from that day...

(https://i.imgur.com/TPU5GC9.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 05, 2020, 01:07:25 PM
This is the best we've got from that day...

(https://i.imgur.com/TPU5GC9.jpg)

Thanks. Doesn't help us much does it  :)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 05, 2020, 01:11:18 PM
Thanks. Doesn't help us much does it  :)

Also this, of course...

(https://i.imgur.com/IxHMIGi.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 05, 2020, 01:48:12 PM
Yes, I thought that one might take us down a different path though .....
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 05, 2020, 04:01:33 PM
When he turns his head to the right, the back of his head blends in with the hat of the man behind him. This gives him a 'ponytail' effect!

(https://i.imgur.com/pZkPjT2.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/mgbpCxR.gif)

 Thumb1:

The top part of the hat also makes our man's head look fuller in back.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 05, 2020, 04:03:44 PM
The top part of the hat also makes our man's head look fuller in back.

It does indeed.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 05, 2020, 04:06:24 PM
The top part of the hat also makes our man's head look fuller in back.

Based on the photos of Jack Dougherty, I believe the man is Jack Dougherty......
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 05, 2020, 04:11:02 PM
Based on the photos of Jack Dougherty, I believe the man is Jack Dougherty......

We don't have any photos of Mr Dougherty!
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 05, 2020, 04:55:49 PM

  The guy inside the TSBD does Not appear to be wearing a button-up shirt. I see No Trace at all of a Collar of any kind. The provided photo of Dougherty allegedly taken on 11/22/63 shows him wearing a button-up shirt. That guy in the Altgens photo including the shirt he is wearing looks more like Daugherty vs the film snippet man we see inside the TSBD after the shooting.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 05, 2020, 04:57:57 PM
  The guy inside the TSBD does Not appear to be wearing a button-up shirt. I see No Trace at all of a Collar of any kind. The provided photo of Dougherty allegedly taken on 11/22/63 shows him wearing a button-up shirt. That guy in the Altgens photo including the shirt he is wearing looks more like Daugherty vs the film snippet man we see inside the TSBD after the shooting.

What 'provided photo of Dougherty allegedly taken on 11/22/63' are you talking about, Mr Storing?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 05, 2020, 05:03:01 PM
This is the best we've got from that day...

(https://i.imgur.com/TPU5GC9.jpg)

  Bump as to button-up shirt.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 05, 2020, 05:17:10 PM
  Bump as to button-up shirt.

OK, so you meant Mr Lovelady not Mr Dougherty
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 05, 2020, 05:20:25 PM
OK, so you meant Mr Lovelady not Mr Dougherty

   I thought that photo was being posted as being Dougherty. My fault.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Zeon Mason on May 05, 2020, 09:36:00 PM
That many people close together in the upper 6th floor around the hottest part of the day , their combined BTU generating a lot of additional heat, itís understandable someone might take off their flannel shirt
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 05, 2020, 10:14:08 PM
That many people close together in the upper 6th floor around the hottest part of the day , their combined BTU generating a lot of additional heat, itís understandable someone might take off their flannel shirt

But it stops being understandable if they then put a different garment on over their tshirt!
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan J. Ford on May 05, 2020, 11:40:40 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/STepePN.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/KSIxinh.jpg)

An astute assessment & keen observation there, Mr. Ford. with your highlighting arrows.

There's a strong resemblance there of Billy Lovelady, but as you pointed out void of the prominent bald spot.
Any chance Billy Nolan Lovelady had any male siblings?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Gerry Down on May 05, 2020, 11:58:02 PM
Doesn't the guy look very tall?

If we don't have a picture of Dougherty, do you know what height he was? Is that it in military records?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 06, 2020, 12:28:42 AM
An astute assessment & keen observation there, Mr. Ford. with your highlighting arrows.

There's a strong resemblance there of Billy Lovelady, but as you pointed out void of the prominent bald spot.
Any chance Billy Nolan Lovelady had any male siblings?

A twin brother would certainly solve all problems!  :D

Then there's this Lovelady-like fellow in the background (first floor, same film----Alyea):

(https://i.imgur.com/fwEiCRC.gif)

Definitely not just wearing a white tshirt!
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 06, 2020, 12:30:07 AM
Doesn't the guy look very tall?

Unless he's a giant, he's standing on something to get a better view
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 06, 2020, 02:20:11 AM

   So what exactly is going on with the Extreme Width of the opening to the stairwell? That width would be more in line with a service elevator.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Patrick Jackson on May 06, 2020, 11:21:04 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/Af0jBO4.jpg)

This is Lovelady:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMDZRTRn/Af0jBO4.jpg)

And this is Roscoe White:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHGN5TDp/fInYmo9.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/L507bpCB/gb0CndA.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 06, 2020, 11:25:46 AM
This is Lovelady:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMDZRTRn/Af0jBO4.jpg)

And this is Roscoe White:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHGN5TDp/fInYmo9.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/L507bpCB/gb0CndA.jpg)

Do you have any images Roscoe White to compare. The only one I found didn't look like this guy.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Patrick Jackson on May 06, 2020, 11:36:09 AM
Do you have any images Roscoe White to compare. The only one I found didn't look like this guy.

There are very few images of Roscoe White. Same as Lovelady.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 06, 2020, 11:38:30 AM
There are very few images of Roscoe White. Same as Lovelady.

So on what did you base your comment that it was Roscoe White?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on May 06, 2020, 12:35:14 PM
This is Roscoe White
(https://i.postimg.cc/vDn97Rm8/Roscoe-White.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vDn97Rm8)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 06, 2020, 01:39:06 PM
   So what exactly is going on with the Extreme Width of the opening to the stairwell? That width would be more in line with a service elevator.

Yes, that is a freight elevator isn't it? If this was the one on the sixth floor the stairs would be to the left. It being the East freight elevator on a lower floor - firth -would fit I think.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Patrick Jackson on May 06, 2020, 03:50:13 PM
So on what did you base your comment that it was Roscoe White?
Based on all the controversy about Lovelady and plaid shirt and the resemblance with White. He was not on duty that day and the logical move was that from Dealey Plaza, he went to DPD to check if he can help out somehow. He was waiting in 327 office when Oswald brought in at 2PM and I believe he was sent to check Oswald rooming house which would explain how he had one of the BY photos.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 06, 2020, 03:53:34 PM
   Do You see any room for a doorway/stairwell to the Left of that possible Freight Elevator? I have seen pics of that doorway/stairwell there on the West Side of the 6th Floor. The FBI also Filmed a re-creation of Oswald retrieving the rifle from the hidey-slot and then walking to/through the doorway and down the stairwell to the 2nd Floor. I did Not see a Freight Elevator situated to the Immediate right of that doorway/stairwell. There is something SCREWY with this pic being proffered as showing the area that the rifle was found along with the stairway/stairwell that Oswald allegedly used.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 06, 2020, 04:01:07 PM
   Do You see any room for a doorway/stairwell to the Left of that possible Freight Elevator? I have seen pics of that doorway/stairwell there on the West Side of the 6th Floor. The FBI also Filmed a re-creation of Oswald retrieving the rifle from the hidey-slot and then walking to/through the doorway and down the stairwell to the 2nd Floor. I did Not see a Freight Elevator situated to the Immediate right of that doorway/stairwell. There is something SCREWY with this pic being proffered as showing the area that the rifle was found along with the stairway/stairwell that Oswald allegedly used.

That is what I am saying. There isn't a stairwell to the left of the freight elevator so think this is a lower floor by the other freight elevator and not on the sixth floor. Apart from the title of the clip saying it's on the sixth who has claimed it is where the rifle was found on the sixth?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 06, 2020, 04:24:46 PM
That is what I am saying. There isn't a stairwell to the left of the freight elevator so think this is a lower floor by the other freight elevator and not on the sixth floor. Apart from the title of the clip saying it's on the sixth who has claimed it is where the rifle was found on the sixth?

Looking at the floor plan for Six--------------

(https://i.imgur.com/XZMPwUs.png)

--------------I don't see any problem. The stairwell is west of the freight elevator, and out of shot in both of these images:

(https://i.imgur.com/STepePN.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/KSIxinh.jpg)

Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 06, 2020, 04:38:30 PM
Looking at the floor plan for Six--------------

(https://i.imgur.com/XZMPwUs.png)

--------------I don't see any problem. The stairwell is west of the freight elevator, and out of shot in both of these images:

(https://i.imgur.com/STepePN.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/KSIxinh.jpg)

Two things I think. One is the distance between the elevator and the wall the window is in. Seems too narrow for the stairwell as per the plan. the second is how far into the room the elevator is i.e. how far back you can see on the right hand side again compared to the plan.

The location in the clip looks the same as you one in the other photograph - absolutely. Just trying to make it fit with the plans I've seen of the sixth and the fifth.

Thinking out loud and happy to be shown to be wrong.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 06, 2020, 04:43:46 PM
Two things I think. One is the distance between the elevator and the wall the window is in. Seems too narrow for the stairwell as per the plan.

Not sure I quite follow you here, Mr Turner. The stairwell is not between the elevator and the window-----it's over in the northwest corner.

And yes, the floor plan misleadingly stretches the elevator all the way to the wall. But that's not just the case for the sixth floor. Here e.g. is the fifth floor plan:

(https://i.imgur.com/rWtc9KP.png)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 06, 2020, 04:49:53 PM
Not sure I quite follow you here, Mr Turner. The stairwell is not between the elevator and the window-----it's over in the northwest corner.

And yes, the floor plan misleadingly stretches the elevator all the way to the wall. But that's not just the case for the sixth floor. Here e.g. is the fifth floor plan:

(https://i.imgur.com/rWtc9KP.png)

The plan is misleading me then. I see the plan for the fifth says there was no opening on the fifth for the other elevator I was thinking this might be, so I'll stop thinking out loud  :)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 06, 2020, 04:56:05 PM
The plan is misleading me then. I see the plan for the fifth says there was no opening on the fifth for the other elevator I was thinking this might be, so I'll stop thinking out loud  :)

Not a problem, Mr Turner!

Here's where the cameraman was standing when he took the photo below:

(https://i.imgur.com/jGpqMI0.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/STepePN.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 06, 2020, 04:58:45 PM
Two things I think. One is the distance between the elevator and the wall the window is in. Seems too narrow for the stairwell as per the plan. the second is how far into the room the elevator is i.e. how far back you can see on the right hand side again compared to the plan.

The location in the clip looks the same as you one in the other photograph - absolutely. Just trying to make it fit with the plans I've seen of the sixth and the fifth.

Thinking out loud and happy to be shown to be wrong.

   Thanks for posting that floor plan. If that floor plan is correct, could the photo be of the OTHER TSBD? There were 2. Your right about that set-back to the Right of the Freight Elevator. That set-back runs several feet back/behind the freight elevator vs the floor plan showing a wall running right alongside the freight elevator. Also, we do not see ANY window(s) or light from any window(s) on the freight elevator side of the building.   
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 06, 2020, 05:46:19 PM
Not a problem, Mr Turner!

Here's where the cameraman was standing when he took the photo below:

(https://i.imgur.com/jGpqMI0.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/STepePN.jpg)

Thanks. Not everyone has been so understanding about my thinking out loud posts in the past. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 06, 2020, 06:21:10 PM
Thanks. Not everyone has been so understanding about my thinking out loud posts in the past. Much appreciated.

Thumb1:
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 06, 2020, 07:30:26 PM

  Another issue with that photo is there were books stacked and laying around almost all the way to the doorway/stairwell. There was a semi-aisle between the stacks of books and the windows almost all the way down from the snipers nest to the stairwell. We see plenty of open space between that last stack of boxes and the freight elevator. This photo has Numerous Issues along with Not lining up with the floor plan for the 6th floor.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 06, 2020, 08:50:36 PM
We see plenty of open space between that last stack of boxes and the freight elevator.

One assumes the area in front of the elevator was kept clear for loading and off-loading.

But if you know of other 11/22/63 images of the sixth floor showing something other than the open space arrangement we see here, I'll be all eyes!  Thumb1:

(https://i.imgur.com/rqL45qH.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 06, 2020, 09:10:45 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/N2gSWJ5.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/aeKn368.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 06, 2020, 09:13:59 PM
I watched a film of the rifle being found on Youtube and in it was a shot from inside the elevator looking out. Not only did this help me further understand where the stairwell was and the orientation of the photographs it also showed the floor in front of it to be quite clear as in the photograph .
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 06, 2020, 09:16:18 PM
One assumes the area in front of the elevator was kept clear for loading and off-loading.

But if you know of other 11/22/63 images of this area showing something other than the open space arrangement we see here, I'll be all eyes!  Thumb1:

(https://i.imgur.com/rqL45qH.jpg)

    Based on that floor plan, the Distance from the Freight Elevator to the Stairwell is LESS than 20 FEET. Generally speaking, You could Spit from the Freight Elevator to the Stairwell.  No Way!
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 06, 2020, 09:20:42 PM
    Based on that floor plan, the Distance from the Freight Elevator to the Stairwell is LESS than 20 FEET. Generally speaking, You could Spit from the Freight Elevator to the Stairwell.  No Way!

Who cares about "Generally speaking"? We're "TSBD-11/22/63 speaking"! So-------yes way!
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 06, 2020, 09:21:04 PM
    Based on that floor plan, the Distance from the Freight Elevator to the Stairwell is LESS than 20 FEET. Generally speaking, You could Spit from the Freight Elevator to the Stairwell.  No Way!

Just over 20 feet I would say, and that looks ok to me. No spitting please by the way!
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 06, 2020, 09:25:15 PM
Based on all the controversy about Lovelady and plaid shirt and the resemblance with White. He was not on duty that day and the logical move was that from Dealey Plaza, he went to DPD to check if he can help out somehow. He was waiting in 327 office when Oswald brought in at 2PM and I believe he was sent to check Oswald rooming house which would explain how he had one of the BY photos.

How do you know there was a resemblance with White without a picture to compare? Genuine question because the only one posted was posted by someone else and it didn't look like the same person to me.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 06, 2020, 09:29:28 PM
I watched a film of the rifle being found on Youtube and in it was a shot from inside the elevator looking out. Not only did this help me further understand where the stairwell was and the orientation of the photographs it also showed the floor in front of it to be quite clear as in the photograph .

   I have seen the Alyea Footage of Lt Day allegedly pulling the rifle from its' hiding slot for the very 1st time. That Alyea footage is Not filmed from the "elevator looking out".
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 06, 2020, 09:35:32 PM
   I have seen the Alyea Footage of Lt Day allegedly pulling the rifle from its' hiding slot for the very 1st time. That Alyea footage is Not filmed from the "elevator looking out".

There is such footage. Have just watched it in two places. Only a second or two but it was there. Hope this works. Go to 4.40 Edit: Oh, doesn't seem to let you 'go to' 4.40.

Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 06, 2020, 09:36:02 PM
Open space in front of elevator---------we see UP stairwell and the sign for the DOWN stairwell   Thumb1:

(https://i.imgur.com/mszXLSM.jpg)

Incidentally, this area is where Mr Jack Dougherty said he was standing in when he heard a loud bang.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 06, 2020, 09:38:52 PM
Open space in front of elevator---------we see UP stairwell and the sign for the DOWN stairwell   Thumb1:

(https://i.imgur.com/mszXLSM.jpg)

Incidentally, this area is where Mr Jack Dougherty said he was standing in when he heard a loud bang.

That's the view I was referring too, great.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 06, 2020, 09:48:51 PM
Open space in front of elevator---------we see UP stairwell and the sign for the DOWN stairwell   Thumb1:

(https://i.imgur.com/mszXLSM.jpg)

Incidentally, this area is where Mr Jack Dougherty said he was standing in when he heard a loud bang.

   OK, what floor are we looking out into? Remember, Alyea also sighted a pop bottle when he was on Floor 5.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 06, 2020, 10:05:34 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/1ZELYeK.jpg)

Still a bit of a conundrum!
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 06, 2020, 11:05:26 PM

     TSBD 6th floor stairwell area? Not hardly. If you look at the FBI re-creation of Oswald hiding the gun and then going down the stairwell, the gun hidey hole is extremely close to the stairwell. You guys are getting bamboozled.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 06, 2020, 11:26:31 PM
     TSBD 6th floor stairwell area? Not hardly. If you look at the FBI re-creation of Oswald hiding the gun and then going down the stairwell, the gun hidey hole is extremely close to the stairwell. You guys are getting bamboozled.

No, they're Not.....   The mystery man is standing in front of the west elevator  ( between the elevator and the stairwell)  on the sixth floor.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan J. Ford on May 06, 2020, 11:52:16 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/1ZELYeK.jpg)

Still a bit of a conundrum!

For sure, Mr. Ford

While rereading over some old notes, found the following bookmark info (please note my bold highlight) ----->

Washington, D.C.                                 
                                            April 3, 1964

Honorable Lee J Rankin
General Counsel
The President's Commission
200 Maryland Avenue, Northeast
Washington, D. C.

Dear Mr. Rankin:

              Reference is xxxx to your letter dated March 10, 1964, requesting a signed statement be obtained from each person known to have been in the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963.

              Inclosed for your assistance are two copies each of 73 signed statements obtained from those individuals known to have been in the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963.  Every effort was made to comply with your request that six specific items be incorporated in each statement; however, in many instances the individual furnishing the statement was unaware of the address of persons referred to therein and this information, of necessity, had to be omitted.

              Statements were not obtained from the following three Texas School Book Depository Building employees as they were absent from work on November 22, 1963:

                Mrs. Joseph A. (Vickie) Davis
                Mr. Franklin Kaiser
                Mrs. James L. (Dottiie) Lovelady

              This complies with your request and no further action is being taken in this matter.

                                                                                                                    Sincerely yours,

                                                                                                                    J. Edgar Hoover

Enclosures (146)

COMMISSION EXHIBIT No. 1381 - all

DL 100-10461



Any chance this gentleman in bold-highlight was related to Billy Nolan Lovelady someone how (sibling, cousin)?

IF so, any chance he simply was by the office to pick up something for his wife, and suddenly became swept up in a defining moment in history?

He certainly would fit nicely into the fact that no one within the collective CE 1381 statements saw any strangers that day, meaning could it be he was someone most of the folks on scene that afternoon was already familiar w/given his wife's employment there?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 06, 2020, 11:56:20 PM
For sure, Mr. Ford

While rereading over some old notes, found the following bookmark info (please note my bold highlight) ----->

Washington, D.C.                                 
                                            April 3, 1964

Honorable Lee J Rankin
General Counsel
The President's Commission
200 Maryland Avenue, Northeast
Washington, D. C.

Dear Mr. Rankin:

              Reference is xxxx to your letter dated March 10, 1964, requesting a signed statement be obtained from each person known to have been in the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963.

              Inclosed for your assistance are two copies each of 73 signed statements obtained from those individuals known to have been in the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963.  Every effort was made to comply with your request that six specific items be incorporated in each statement; however, in many instances the individual furnishing the statement was unaware of the address of persons referred to therein and this information, of necessity, had to be omitted.

              Statements were not obtained from the following three Texas School Book Depository Building employees as they were absent from work on November 22, 1963:

                Mrs. Joseph A. (Vickie) Davis
                Mr. Franklin Kaiser
                Mrs. James L. (Dottiie) Lovelady

              This complies with your request and no further action is being taken in this matter.

                                                                                                                    Sincerely yours,

                                                                                                                    J. Edgar Hoover

Enclosures (146)

COMMISSION EXHIBIT No. 1381 - all

DL 100-10461



Any chance this gentleman in bold-highlight was related to Billy Nolan Lovelady someone how (sibling, cousin)?

IF so, any chance he simply was by the office to pick up something for his wife, and suddenly became swept up in a defining moment in history?

He certainly would fit nicely into the fact that no one within the collective CE 1381 statements saw any strangers that day, meaning could it be he was someone most of the folks on scene that afternoon was already familiar w/given his wife's employment there?

 "Gentleman"? That is a MRS.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 07, 2020, 11:26:55 AM
     TSBD 6th floor stairwell area? Not hardly. If you look at the FBI re-creation of Oswald hiding the gun and then going down the stairwell, the gun hidey hole is extremely close to the stairwell. You guys are getting bamboozled.

If you watch that clip I posted, there is a brief moment when you see the elevator in the background as they lift the rifle out of its location. It's not found right over by the stairwell according to that.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Patrick Jackson on May 07, 2020, 12:00:41 PM
Not a problem, Mr Turner!

Here's where the cameraman was standing when he took the photo below:

(https://i.imgur.com/jGpqMI0.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/STepePN.jpg)
Sometime it was very hard to understand layouts with limited photos available.
Here is additional clue on where the photo was taken.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXNpTs66/tsbd.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 07, 2020, 02:54:06 PM
If you watch that clip I posted, there is a brief moment when you see the elevator in the background as they lift the rifle out of its location. It's not found right over by the stairwell according to that.

   Take a look at the FBI re-creation of Oswald going from the snipers nest, squirreling away the rifle, and then walking to/down the stairwell. No partial peering through the gates of a freight elevator with this FBI video.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 07, 2020, 02:57:04 PM
  Mrs. James L. (Dottiie) Lovelady

If memory serves, she's Billy's aunt!
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 07, 2020, 02:58:27 PM
Sometime it was very hard to understand layouts with limited photos available.
Here is additional clue on where the photo was taken.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXNpTs66/tsbd.jpg)

Nicely spotted!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 07, 2020, 05:17:56 PM
Nicely spotted!  Thumb1:

Good Job, Patrick....   Thumb1:
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on May 07, 2020, 06:36:16 PM
Good Job, Patrick...
Have where is this... but Who is this?    ???
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Royell Storing on May 07, 2020, 06:43:21 PM
Sometime it was very hard to understand layouts with limited photos available.
Here is additional clue on where the photo was taken.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXNpTs66/tsbd.jpg)

  Patrick - Thanks for posting the pics. I Appreciate it.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan J. Ford on May 07, 2020, 09:47:55 PM
If memory serves, she's Billy's aunt!

The following link, Mr. Ford, suggests she's Billy's sister-in-law ----->

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/178190368/james-lavon-lovelady

Will continue to pursue this to determine if he and his brother Billy shared a striking resemblance. Otherwise, appreciate your continued pursuit of the truth in this case.

Sidebar: Interesting that Billy's brother shared the same birthday month and day as the wrongly accused.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 08, 2020, 12:21:58 AM
The following link, Mr. Ford, suggests she's Billy's sister-in-law ----->

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/178190368/james-lavon-lovelady

Will continue to pursue this to determine if he and his brother Billy shared a striking resemblance. Otherwise, appreciate your continued pursuit of the truth in this case.

Sidebar: Interesting that Billy's brother shared the same birthday month and day as the wrongly accused.

Hot damn, memory did NOT serve too well------------thank you for the correction!

And you're quite right: 18 Oct

Yes, one wonders what he looked like in 1963 as a late twentysomething

(https://i.imgur.com/d1GK3pm.png)

I would also LOVE to know what Frankie & Fred Kaiser looked like...

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan J. Ford on May 08, 2020, 01:42:13 AM
Hot damn, memory did NOT serve too well------------thank you for the correction!

And you're quite right: 18 Oct

Yes, one wonders what he looked like in 1963 as a late twentysomething

(https://i.imgur.com/d1GK3pm.png)

I would also LOVE to know what Frankie & Fred Kaiser looked like...

 Thumb1:

Hmm...the mention of Frankie & Fred Kaiser is so indicative of your keen powers of discernment, Mr. Ford, but IF he's telling the truth we have to be mindful that Frankie said he was elsewhere on Friday, November 22, 1963.

So, IF he's being truthful that leaves us with the following candidates in response to your thread's challenging question ---->

*Jack Dougherty
*Billy Nolan Lovelady, given his same day affidavit -----> https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338214/m1/1/
*His older brother by two years, James L. "Jim" Lovelady, simply picking something up for his wife Dottie on her day off, and becoming swept up in a defining moment in history.
*Fred Kaiser (unless of course, he--like his brother Frankie--was elsewhere that afternoon, and J. Edgar Hoover simply didn't annotate it in his letter to Rankin and only mentioned Frankie instead of them both). I'll comb through the CE 1381 statements some time this weekend to determine IF Fred was included within those statements.
*Someone yet undetermined

Given his same day affidavit above, we have to wonder why Billy Lovelady revamped his actions so many times...

Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan J. Ford on May 08, 2020, 01:57:32 AM
Just went through the Commission Exhibit 1381 statements. 

Negative on Fred Kaiser making a statement like the rest of the TSBD employees. Will leave the link to those statements here to retrace my steps when more time permits in case I overlooked his statement ---->

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 08, 2020, 01:11:25 PM
Just went through the Commission Exhibit 1381 statements. 

Negative on Fred Kaiser making a statement like the rest of the TSBD employees. Will leave the link to those statements here to retrace my steps when more time permits in case I overlooked his statement ---->

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

Mr Fred Kaiser supposedly quit his job at the Depository the day before the assassination. Hmmm....

Also more than a little Hmmm.... is the Allright Parking Lot link between Oswald (or 'Oswald') and FK. What I wouldn't give to see a photo of Mr Kaiser (and his dentally challenged brother)!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 08, 2020, 07:46:25 PM
Darker segment appears to belong to hat of man behind, not to our man............

(https://i.imgur.com/fP9rSDm.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 08, 2020, 08:11:31 PM
Darker segment appears to belong to hat of man behind, not to our man............

(https://i.imgur.com/fP9rSDm.gif)

 Thumb1:

Yes. Nicely highlighted.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on May 08, 2020, 10:45:18 PM
Seems like two men behind ... the man ... in the original clip presented.  One does seem to be wearing a hat.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan J. Ford on May 09, 2020, 01:23:05 AM
Mr Fred Kaiser supposedly quit his job at the Depository the day before the assassination. Hmmm....

Also more than a little Hmmm.... is the Allright Parking Lot link between Oswald (or 'Oswald') and FK. What I wouldn't give to see a photo of Mr Kaiser (and his dentally challenged brother)!

 Thumb1:

The following link, Mr. Ford, should reveal a photo of Mr. Kaiser (Frank) ---->

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/187187721/frank-kaiser

Admittedly, he looks nothing like the guy featured in your thread heading, so it's safe to rule him out.

*Credit the exemplary research of a familiar name in the JFK research community ---->

https://www.findagrave.com/user/profile/48291572
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan J. Ford on May 09, 2020, 01:43:55 AM
Gentlemen,

Nice work with your timely contributions and insights shared above. Wish we had some idea when the photo of Mr. Ford's who-is-this-man? was taken, so we could factor in the timing-sequence to match respective WC testimonies, especially that of Dougherty (Jack) who--per his testimony retraced his steps back upstairs looking for Roy Truly ---->

Mr. Ball:  Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?
Mr. Dougherty: I didn't hear anybody yell.
 Mr. BALL. Or, did you see Mr. Truly?
 Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started looking for him, and .by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gum and shells.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 09, 2020, 03:05:41 PM
Gentlemen,

Nice work with your timely contributions and insights shared above. Wish we had some idea when the photo of Mr. Ford's who-is-this-man? was taken, so we could factor in the timing-sequence to match respective WC testimonies, especially that of Dougherty (Jack) who--per his testimony retraced his steps back upstairs looking for Roy Truly ---->

Mr. Ball:  Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?
Mr. Dougherty: I didn't hear anybody yell.
 Mr. BALL. Or, did you see Mr. Truly?
 Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started looking for him, and .by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gum and shells.


Indeed so! But again we run up against the problem that Mr Dougherty (at least when he was 18) had blond hair...
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 09, 2020, 03:07:10 PM
The following link, Mr. Ford, should reveal a photo of Mr. Kaiser (Frank) ---->

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/187187721/frank-kaiser

Admittedly, he looks nothing like the guy featured in your thread heading, so it's safe to rule him out.

*Credit the exemplary research of a familiar name in the JFK research community ---->

https://www.findagrave.com/user/profile/48291572

Thanking you kindly sir-----------great to have a photo of one of the Kaiser brothers!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 09, 2020, 03:08:42 PM
Seems like two men behind ... the man ... in the original clip presented.  One does seem to be wearing a hat.

Yes, we get a glimpse of the other man on the other side of our man!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 09, 2020, 06:52:41 PM
Darker segment appears to belong to hat of man behind, not to our man............

(https://i.imgur.com/fP9rSDm.gif)

 Thumb1:

While we're on the subject!

The casual eye is further misled by what looks like a bulky right arm but turns out-----------when Mister Mystery turns away from us-----------to be something located between him and the camera: a detective's left hand resting on a box!

(https://i.imgur.com/yH8GsXr.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/F7Wr3zG.jpg)

 Thumb1:

Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 09, 2020, 08:32:12 PM
The trademark Lovelady bald spot??

(https://i.imgur.com/6wv7cAH.gif)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 10, 2020, 03:06:39 PM
The trademark Lovelady bald spot??

(https://i.imgur.com/6wv7cAH.gif)

The man is NOT  Billy Lovelady!
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 10, 2020, 03:08:43 PM
Why do you say that Walt?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 10, 2020, 06:00:36 PM
Why do you say that Walt?

Billy Lovelady was not dressed in a Tee shirt and some sort of outer shirt like a Sweat shirt.....We have photos of BL outside of the TSBD , and at the police station....iand he is wearing a maroon plaid shirt.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 10, 2020, 06:07:58 PM
Billy Lovelady was not dressed in a Tee shirt and some sort of outer shirt like a Sweat shirt.....We have photos of BL outside of the TSBD , and at the police station....iand he is wearing a maroon plaid shirt.

With a tee shirt underneath though, yes?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 10, 2020, 07:58:50 PM
With a tee shirt underneath though, yes?

Are you suggesting that Lovelady was wearing THREE shirts ??
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 11, 2020, 12:59:25 AM
The trademark Lovelady bald spot??

(https://i.imgur.com/6wv7cAH.gif)

Friends, having looked more closely I have come to the realization that the 'bald spot' I tentatively identified is in fact an artefact on the film. Apologies for the confusion!!  >:(

(https://i.imgur.com/fprfY9b.gif)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 11, 2020, 01:29:27 AM
Does Mister Mystery have his arms folded, with his right-hand thumb and index finger showing?

(https://i.imgur.com/DJOuSR9.gif)

 :-\
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 11, 2020, 01:48:22 AM
The visibility of the tshirt collar all the way round to the back of the head would seem to rule out a shirt collar............

(https://i.imgur.com/DJOuSR9.gif)

The greater amount of white under the neck suggests to me a v-necked sweater of some description. If only that damned box weren't in the way!  :'(
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 11, 2020, 01:53:41 AM
This question may seem off-topic (if not downright bizarre!), but are Mr Lovelady and Mr Piper wearing the same short-sleeved tshirt here?

(https://i.imgur.com/Aojqnhz.png)

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Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Gerry Down on May 11, 2020, 02:23:49 AM
No. Clearly different buttons on the shirt.

The individual in the picture is clearly Billy Lovelady. He testified that he went up there to help police, plus the police would have arrested that individual if he were not an employee of the building. They would not let an unknown person wander around willy-nilly where all the evidence was - Oswalds rifle, 3 spent shells etc.

(https://i.imgur.com/DJOuSR9.gif)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 11, 2020, 02:26:47 AM
No. Clearly different buttons on the shirt.

The individual in the picture is clearly Billy Lovelady. He testified that he went up there to help police, plus the police would have arrested that individual if he were not an employee of the building. They would not let an unknown person wander around willy-nilly where all the evidence was - Oswalds rifle, 3 spent shells etc.

(https://i.imgur.com/DJOuSR9.gif)

the police would have arrested that individual if he were not an employee of the building.

You are very naive!..... 
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Gerry Down on May 11, 2020, 02:28:06 AM
the police would have arrested that individual if he were not an employee of the building.

You are very naive!.....

Explain? The police sealed off the building and were not letting anyone in or out.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 11, 2020, 02:43:29 AM
No. Clearly different buttons on the shirt.

You have a funny definition of 'clearly', Mr Down!

Quote
The individual in the picture is clearly Billy Lovelady.

Again, a funny definition of 'clearly'!

(https://i.imgur.com/Af0jBO4.jpg)

If this is Mr Lovelady, why do we not see an obvious bald spot when he turns his head? And why is he not wearing either his plaid shirt over his tshirt OR his tshirt only? This man is wearing a different garment of some sort over his tshirt!

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Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 11, 2020, 02:43:54 AM
Explain? The police sealed off the building and were not letting anyone in or out.

Yes---NB!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 11, 2020, 06:32:41 AM
Are you suggesting that Lovelady was wearing THREE shirts ??

Can you rule that out? To dismiss this as being Bill Lovelady from him not wearing his plaid shirt, which he could have taken off, and without us really knowing what he was wearing under that plaid shirt seems a bit of a leap. It may not be Bill Lovelady but it maybe him having removed his plaid shirt.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on May 11, 2020, 12:28:17 PM

(https://i.imgur.com/Af0jBO4.jpg)
 
 

If this is Mr Lovelady, why do we not see an obvious bald spot when he turns his head? And why is he not wearing either his plaid shirt over his tshirt OR his t shirt only? This man is wearing a different garment of some sort over his t shirt!
Quote
Mr. LOVELADY - I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - Did you take them up there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; I sure did.
I read that BNL was 5' 8" so it is likely him standing on a box and looking on.
Because there was very little available light...his baldness and plaid shirt did not show up in the darkness of the room.
Mr Chapman [I believe] mentioned a longer clip but so far it has not been produced. I would say looking at the full face pictures it would be B N Lovelady.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 11, 2020, 12:55:06 PM
I read that BNL was 5' 8" so it is likely him standing on a box and looking on.
Because there was very little available light...his baldness and plaid shirt did not show up in the darkness of the room.

If that is Mr Lovelady, then there's no way he's wearing his plaid shirt-------------when he turns away from the camera, note the visibility of the white tshirt's neck ring all the way to the back of the head. Impossible with the plaid shirt.

Compare--------------------

(https://i.imgur.com/JHbEZVC.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/fprfY9b.gif)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 11, 2020, 01:28:36 PM
Yes I'd agree there is no plaid shirt, no collar and even in that lighting you would see the pattern and darker colouration I'm sure.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 11, 2020, 01:54:08 PM
Yes I'd agree there is no plaid shirt, no collar and even in that lighting you would see the pattern and darker colouration I'm sure.

Might he-------whoever he is--------be wearing a number like this?

(https://i.imgur.com/RB1kujp.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/6vQpiPN.gif)

If we darken this later FBI photo of Lovelady, does it suggest that he is here wearing just such a two-tone tshirt? (The shirt is of course another matter altogether!)

(https://i.imgur.com/PBPRaMl.jpg)

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Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 11, 2020, 01:59:27 PM
And yes, we do have to be careful about assuming that absence of evidence of a bald spot is evidence of absence-------------------compare:

(https://i.imgur.com/c50zqn3.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 11, 2020, 02:02:34 PM
Might he-------whoever he is--------be wearing a number like this?

(https://i.imgur.com/RB1kujp.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/6vQpiPN.gif)

If we darken this later FBI photo of Lovelady, does it suggest that he is here wearing just such a two-tone tshirt? (The shirt is of course another matter altogether!)

(https://i.imgur.com/PBPRaMl.jpg)

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Yes, I played about with the levels of the image from the clip in Photoshop and it does really just look as if the neck line is a different colour from the rest of the shirt rather than there being a second shirt on top. The other darkened image you have just posted suggest something similar - but as  have said on other threads you have to be careful of course when 'enhancing' images as things may appear which aren't really there.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Gerry Down on May 11, 2020, 02:07:23 PM
Does anyone know when Jack Daugherty died? or if by some small chance he is still alive?

Dougherty was 40 in 1964 which would make him 97 if still alive, that would be younger than Jim Leavelle when he died.

Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 11, 2020, 04:33:32 PM
Yes, I played about with the levels of the image from the clip in Photoshop and it does really just look as if the neck line is a different colour from the rest of the shirt rather than there being a second shirt on top. The other darkened image you have just posted suggest something similar - but as  have said on other threads you have to be careful of course when 'enhancing' images as things may appear which aren't really there.

Agreed!  Thumb1:

But if that's Mr Lovelady's 11/22 tshirt we're seeing in the FBI photo, it suggests that he was indeed directed to bring his 11/22 clothes to the photo session. In which case---------what the heck is he doing in that vertically striped short-sleeved shirt?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 11, 2020, 04:35:33 PM
Agreed!  Thumb1:

But if that's Mr Lovelady's 11/22 tshirt we're seeing in the FBI photo, it suggests that he was indeed directed to bring his 11/22 clothes to the photo session. In which case---------what the heck is he doing in that vertically striped short-sleeved shirt?

I read somewhere that he was told to wear that one and told them it wasn't the one he wore that day but they said to wear it anyway. Sounds odd, but will see if I can find where I read that.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on May 11, 2020, 04:39:37 PM
From Spartacus-educational website

'Lovelady later explained that when he was interviewed and photographed by the FBI, he had not been told to wear the same shirt he had worn on the day of the assassination and that, in fact, he had been wearing a long-sleeved, plaid shirt when he was standing in the Texas School Book Depository doorway.'

Make of that what you will but that's where I read it.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 11, 2020, 05:05:09 PM
From Spartacus-educational website

'Lovelady later explained that when he was interviewed and photographed by the FBI, he had not been told to wear the same shirt he had worn on the day of the assassination and that, in fact, he had been wearing a long-sleeved, plaid shirt when he was standing in the Texas School Book Depository doorway.'

Make of that what you will but that's where I read it.

Yep, that's what he later claimed. But------------given that the whole reason the FBI wanted to photograph him was the Altgens controversy-------------it seems a remarkable error for them to make!

(https://i.imgur.com/5Xip877.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 11, 2020, 05:14:01 PM
Yep, that's what he later claimed. But------------given that the whole reason the FBI wanted to photograph him was the Altgens controversy-------------it seems a remarkable error for them to make!

(https://i.imgur.com/5Xip877.jpg)

Is there anybody standing on the steps who is wearing a vertical striped shirt?...... And how do you explain the photo of Billy Lovelady at the police station where he was photographed wearing a long sleeve, maroon plaid shirt  ??.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 11, 2020, 05:20:35 PM
Is there anybody standing on the steps who is wearing a vertical striped shirt?

Not that we can see!

Quote
...... And how do you explain the photo of Billy Lovelady at the police station where he was photographed wearing a long sleeve, maroon plaid shirt  ??.

Simple: he wore that plaid shirt that day!

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Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 11, 2020, 07:45:34 PM
Yep, that's what he later claimed. But------------given that the whole reason the FBI wanted to photograph him was the Altgens controversy-------------it seems a remarkable error for them to make!

(https://i.imgur.com/5Xip877.jpg)

It's worth noting that this FBI report states two separate facts---------------------

FACT A: Mr Lovelady was photographed at the Dallas FBI office

FACT B: Mr Lovelady stated during his visit that on 11/22/63 he wore items X & Y.

No explicit linkage is made here between what he wore for the photographic session and what he had been wearing 11/22.

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Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on May 11, 2020, 07:46:46 PM
  he wore that plaid shirt that day!
Without question...(https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKlovelady3.jpg)
It is likely that he [at sometime] took that plaid shirt off upstairs probably because it was getting uncomfortably warm in the stuffy warehouse around that time. 
Quote
Weather History for Dallas, TX Nov 22, 1963
Max temp 71.1 F
 https://www.almanac.com/weather/history/TX/Dallas/1963-11-22#
(https://i.imgur.com/RB1kujp.jpg)
There you go. I had shirts like that.
Look--- if that isn't Lovelady then it's his twin brother.
 
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 11, 2020, 07:53:43 PM
Without question...(https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKlovelady3.jpg)
It is likely that he [at sometime] took that plaid shirt off upstairs probably because it was getting uncomfortably warm in the stuffy warehouse around that time.   (https://i.imgur.com/RB1kujp.jpg)
There you go. I had shirts like that.
Look--- if that isn't Lovelady then it's his twin brother.
Jerry, It's time to visit your optometrist  ...... 
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on May 11, 2020, 08:44:21 PM
Jerry, It's time to visit your optometrist  ......
Probably too late for that... but then think about all those who were so blind as to think that striped shirt was the one that BNL wore that day?
If there is another name for the T shirt man I would certainly like to see it posted :-\
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 11, 2020, 11:42:10 PM
Probably too late for that... but then think about all those who were so blind as to think that striped shirt was the one that BNL wore that day?
If there is another name for the T shirt man I would certainly like to see it posted :-\

Well hell since nobody is being serious, I'd suggest the guy is Elvis Presley.....
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on May 12, 2020, 12:44:25 AM
Quote
Lovelady, as will be seen, was very reluctant to have anyone photograph him. Had Altgens been using color film that day, there might be no controversy concerning the identity of the man in the doorway, for the color of the shirt (along with the pattern) might have established his identity beyond doubt.
...Lovelady's Shirt--The FBI showed a decided reluctance to interview James Altgens even though he took some crucial pictures and was probably the closest spectator to the President when he was hit. When the controversy produced by the Altgens photograph forced the FBI to photograph Billy Lovelady to establish that he was the man-in-the-doorway, and that it was not Oswald, they called Lovelady for a photo session. The pictures they took are shown here. Since the whole purpose was to prove that it was Lovelady, and since the man-in-the-doorway was obviously wearing a long sleeve shirt, one may wonder why the FBI photographed Lovelady in a short sleeve one. There are three different versions of why the FBI photographed Billy Lovelady in a short sleeve shirt: (1) that he had not been told to wear the shirt he had on at the time, (2) that the FBI told him not to bother wearing the shirt he had on at the time, and (3) that Lovelady told the FBI he had been wearing the short sleeve shirt. The report issued by the House Select Committee on Assassinations states: Lovelady was reported to have been wearing a short sleeved red and white, vertically striped shirt. Lovelady later explained that when he was interviewed and photographed by the FBI, he had not been told to wear the same shirt he had worn on the day of the assassination and that, in fact, he had been wearing a long-sleeved, plaid shirt when he was standing in the Texas School Book Depository doorway. (HSCA, Vol. VI, p. 287) Are we to believe that J. Edgar Hoover's vaunted FBI didn't think it important to ask Lovelady to be photographed in the same shirt that he was wearing at the time? In his book The Killing of a President, Robert Groden states (p. 187): When the FBI called Lovelady to come down and be photographed, they told him not to bother to wear the same shirt. When they released the photograph, they stated that it was the same shirt, creating the controversy over whether it was Oswald or Lovelady in the Depository doorway. Neglecting to tell Lovelady to wear the same shirt is bad enough, but to tell him not to bother  wearing it is simply incomprehensible. Then they not only photographed him in the wrong shirt, but issued a report stating that it was the right one. Can this really be true? Is it possible that any agent of the FBI could be so utterly inept and incompetent as to display such a cavalier attitude? If so, it puts the FBI in the same league with the Dallas Police Department which failed to take a transcript of Oswald's 12 hours of interrogation. There is no doubt that Lovelady told the FBI that he was wearing the short sleeve shirt as it is noted in several FBI reports. The photos are labeled "Composite photograph of Mr. Billy Nolan Lovelady consisting of three photographs taken by an agent of our Dallas, Texas Office on February 29, 1964." (Photographic Whitewash, p. 69) On the same date as the photo session, and FBI report states that Lovelady told them he was wearing this shirt:
(https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKlovelady9.jpg)
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Third-Fourth%20Decade%20The/Item%2005.pdf
The FBI connived back then just as they have connived in recent times.. so why do people think they are so [I guess the word is] --virtuous?
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 12, 2020, 01:22:01 AM
Does anyone know when Jack Daugherty died? or if by some small chance he is still alive?

Dougherty was 40 in 1964 which would make him 97 if still alive, that would be younger than Jim Leavelle when he died.

He died in 1994.

(https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2011/84/67466549_130115147295.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Gerry Down on May 12, 2020, 02:30:29 AM
Good find.

Sad to find out all these people you become so familiar with through reading their testimonies have died, some long ago.

Looks like he had no children. Any idea what he died from? Guessing that kind of info not easy to find.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 12, 2020, 08:02:31 AM
Probably too late for that... but then think about all those who were so blind as to think that striped shirt was the one that BNL wore that day?

You mean the FBI?

(https://i.imgur.com/5P2eU6T.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Rick Plant on May 15, 2020, 04:10:58 AM
You have a funny definition of 'clearly', Mr Down!

Again, a funny definition of 'clearly'!

(https://i.imgur.com/Af0jBO4.jpg)

If this is Mr Lovelady, why do we not see an obvious bald spot when he turns his head? And why is he not wearing either his plaid shirt over his tshirt OR his tshirt only? This man is wearing a different garment of some sort over his tshirt!

 Thumb1:

There is no bald spot on this man where Lovelady has his bald spot. 
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on May 16, 2020, 12:51:12 AM
With all this effort to demonstrate who it isn't...no one has revealed who it is.
Walt's guess [Elvis] proves demonstratively invalid     :-\
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 16, 2020, 02:59:21 PM
There is no bald spot on this man where Lovelady has his bald spot.

Yes--------I thought I'd found it but it turned out to be an artefact. Frustrating!  :'(
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Rick Plant on May 20, 2020, 08:05:49 AM
Yes, I played about with the levels of the image from the clip in Photoshop and it does really just look as if the neck line is a different colour from the rest of the shirt rather than there being a second shirt on top. The other darkened image you have just posted suggest something similar - but as  have said on other threads you have to be careful of course when 'enhancing' images as things may appear which aren't really there.

Good find Nicholas. The shirt is white on the top band. To me it looks like it could be another shirt underneath and not like the one you posted.       
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 20, 2020, 07:12:59 PM
What if [whoever it is] is standing on a box [because he is actually short]?
 
(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=227;type=avatar)Nice new look for you there Brian...A graduation picture? :D

It's hard to determine if the man is standing on something ....But if he were standing on a box of books he would tower over everybody in the vicinity......IMO he is a big man.....and he is NOT standing on anything.
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Rick Plant on May 21, 2020, 06:48:49 AM
really?
post a picture of Dougherty and we can compare

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f58/18/51/56/99/tm/doughe13.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Af0jBO4.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Rick Plant on May 21, 2020, 06:58:33 AM
Side profile of Lovelady with bald spot

(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/lovelady-in-martin-film.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Af0jBO4.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 21, 2020, 07:08:01 AM
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f58/18/51/56/99/tm/doughe13.jpg)

That's not our Mr Dougherty!
Title: Re: Who is this?
Post by: Alan Ford on May 26, 2020, 07:48:38 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/Af0jBO4.jpg)

The play of light/darkness on the white neck line of a white tshirt can be sooooooo tricky!

The man below, for example, is definitely wearing a one-tone white tshirt with a white neckline, but you wouldn't think it from looking at him here........

(https://i.imgur.com/VEWCaqb.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/VefpKrY.jpg)

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