JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Charles Collins on February 24, 2020, 11:38:01 AM
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In “Live by the Sword” by Gus Russo, he stresses just how driven the Kennedy brothers (especially Bobby) were in their efforts to depose Castro. Here is an enlightening quote from the book:
Bill Harvey was assigned to coordinate Mongoose from the CIA headquarters in Langley...
... Harvey’s handwritten notes of an early meeting with Robert Kennedy underscore the determination involved: “Top priority in U.S. Gov’t. . . All else is secondary. . . Nothing to stand in way of getting this done.”43
If Castro was involved in the assassination (a big if), then it appears to me it was self defense.
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In “Live by the Sword” by Gus Russo, he stresses just how driven the Kennedy brothers (especially Bobby) were in their efforts to depose Castro. Here is an enlightening quote from the book:
Bill Harvey was assigned to coordinate Mongoose from the CIA headquarters in Langley...
... Harvey’s handwritten notes of an early meeting with Robert Kennedy underscore the determination involved: “Top priority in U.S. Gov’t. . . All else is secondary. . . Nothing to stand in way of getting this done.”43
If Castro was involved in the assassination (a big if), then it appears to me it was self defense.
Castro was not involved in the coup d' etat...... In fact Richard Case Nagell suspected that Castro had learned about the plot and tried to foil the plot.
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(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/mongoose.jpg)
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/PageImage.jpg)
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/PageImage-1.jpg)
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Another quote from Russo’s book:
On October 6, 1962, thousands of troops were positioned, along with support equipment and planes, prepared to implement military OPLANS being considered by the President. In charge of the operation was Admiral Robert “Denny” Dennison, Commander in Chief of the North Atlantic Fleet (CINCLANT). The plans called for everything from small amphibious landings, to a full-scale invasion by over 18,000 U.S. troops. On October 10, the White House obtained permission from the British government to use the Bahamas as an invasion base camp. D-Day was to be October 20, 1962.134
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Oswald would be a perfect Castro assassination patsy to deflect attention towards the USSR, just wondering.
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Oswald would be a perfect Castro assassination patsy to deflect attention towards the USSR, just wondering.
Why would someone "patsy" a person to connect him with Castro and then deflect attention towards Moscow? Isn't that working at cross purposes?
As I mentioned elsewhere, if Oswald was "patsied" then what was the benefit? If they wanted to blame Castro to justify an invasion then why did the WC clear Havana? They cleared Moscow, they cleared domestic communists, they cleared everyone. They said Oswald alone killed JFK. Why? They couldn't determine what his motivations were, whether notoriety or politics or anger or whatever. Nobody helped him, he did it alone.
Why didn't they use this as a sort of "Reichstag fire" event? To consolidate power, to go after Castro or enact a "Red Scare"? Nothing happened. It wasn't used at all.
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Oswald would be a perfect Castro assassination patsy to deflect attention towards the USSR, just wondering.
Interesting thought Colin. The fact that LHO did go to the Soviet Union and stay there for almost three years certainly did deflect some of the suspicion away from Cuba. But at that point in time Cuba was dependent upon the USSR. And, only a year or so after the Cuban Missile Crisis, there was little distinction between Cuba and the Soviet Union in the minds of many Americans. But, IF Castro was even aware of LHO’s plan beforehand, that thought might have entered into his mind. The patsy idea is more than just a little stretch for me however.
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Why would someone "patsy" a person to connect him with Castro and then deflect attention towards Moscow? Isn't that working at cross purposes?
As I mentioned elsewhere, if Oswald was "patsied" then what was the benefit? If they wanted to blame Castro to justify an invasion then why did the WC clear Havana? They cleared Moscow, they cleared domestic communists, they cleared everyone. They said Oswald alone killed JFK. Why? They couldn't determine what his motivations were, whether notoriety or politics or anger or whatever. Nobody helped him, he did it alone.
Why didn't they use this as a sort of "Reichstag fire" event? To consolidate power, to go after Castro or enact a "Red Scare"? Nothing happened. It wasn't used at all.
My guess is that the Soviets knew that the CIA station in Miami was behind the assassination and let LBJ know. It was best for all to blame the dead patsy.
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My guess is that the Soviets knew that the CIA station in Miami was behind the assassination and let LBJ know. It was best for all to blame the dead patsy.
It was best for all to blame the dead patsy.
But was it ??? They started a cancer growing..... and it is still gnawing away at the fabric of the nation. Our nation was founded on the mutual trust between the governed ( the citizens) and those who the citizens elected to create the laws ....... What percentage of the populace has faith in the government?
DJ Trump got elected because he promised to "drain the swamp"..... What does that tell you about the citizens trust in "the swamp" that is Washington DC.
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It was best for all to blame the dead patsy.
But was it ??? They started a cancer growing..... and it is still gnawing away at the fabric of the nation. Our nation was founded on the mutual trust between the governed ( the citizens) and those who the citizens elected to create the laws ....... What percentage of the populace has faith in the government?
DJ Trump got elected because he promised to "drain the swamp"..... What does that tell you about the citizens trust in "the swamp" that is Washington DC.
He just replaced it with his own deeper swamp. But his fans don't care.
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He just replaced it with his own deeper swamp. But his fans don't care.
Thank you for confirming my post..... You obviously are not a Trump supporter.... The nation is becoming more and more divided by politics. And the bottom line is MONEY.... Both sides Republicans and Democrats, are primarily interested in ....What can the government do for me that will fatten my bank account??
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The Eisenhower and Kennedy administrations were fighting for the removal of Castro. Here is a list of some the reasons for their efforts:
https://www.faithwire.com/2016/11/28/heres-a-handy-list-of-atrocities-for-everyone-glorifying-fidel-castro-today/
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Interesting thought Colin. The fact that LHO did go to the Soviet Union and stay there for almost three years certainly did deflect some of the suspicion away from Cuba. But at that point in time Cuba was dependent upon the USSR. And, only a year or so after the Cuban Missile Crisis, there was little distinction between Cuba and the Soviet Union in the minds of many Americans. But, IF Castro was even aware of LHO’s plan beforehand, that thought might have entered into his mind. The patsy idea is more than just a little stretch for me however.
Point is that any assassination of Castro by obvious US interests would easily blow back and likely cause Russian retaliation. However with Oswald in Cuba now you have a Russian defecting communist who would be a convenient patsy that would muddy the waters, enabling blame on Russian backed plot. At worst just a Commie looney.
Explains the trip to Mexico for Cuban visa and earlier dialog with Russians for return there.
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The Eisenhower and Kennedy administrations were fighting for the removal of Castro. Here is a list of some the reasons for their efforts:
https://www.faithwire.com/2016/11/28/heres-a-handy-list-of-atrocities-for-everyone-glorifying-fidel-castro-today/
Very shallow research..... John Kennedy was not trying to remove Castro.... And he was seeking a way to open diplomacy with Castro.... However, J. Edgar Hoover, and many powerful men in the Pentagon and congress were adamantly opposed to any effort to any peaceful solution to the Cuban problem.
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Nicoletti only attacks Trump because no one can enumerate anything good from the Democrat party, so it is just constant attack, his fans, etc. etc.
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The Eisenhower and Kennedy administrations were fighting for the removal of Castro. Here is a list of some the reasons for their efforts:
https://www.faithwire.com/2016/11/28/heres-a-handy-list-of-atrocities-for-everyone-glorifying-fidel-castro-today/
Very good. Well, really, it wasn't a great leap of faith that Castro and Che both wished to launch nukes on the US, in that day and age, why would one not think the worse.
Yes, we had our faults but probably not as bad as others.
Fidel Castro also came closest of anyone in history to (wantonly) starting a worldwide nuclear war.
Great well-researched article and honestly, wanting to eliminate Castro, well, that's more of the CIA deeds and maybe JFK didn't want to overrule it... though, it is a thing to research.
Not just some simple answer. Nothing would preclude one from trying to do both.
I think I read recently, some story of the CIA having contemplated attacks on the US homeland, mainly Florida and blaming it on Castro. I will look for the article and try to post it later.
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Here’s a Handy List of Atrocities for Everyone Glorifying Fidel Castro Today
By Humberto Fontova
Contributor
November 28, 2016
https://www.faithwire.com/2016/11/28/heres-a-handy-list-of-atrocities-for-everyone-glorifying-fidel-castro-today/
Shallow Research? Care to say where?
NO, they can't... this is written by Humberto Fontova, a very well-known Cuban-American writer. This is like so often, saying something that sounds so-called intellectual. It's not Fontova who mentioned anything about Operation Mongoose or anything like that, that the CIA overruled JFK or attempts on Castro. I think the person who said it is shallow research is the one who doesn't know anything about this and the only swamps I'd be thinking of might be the swamps where Operation Mongoose training took place.
BTW, don't they say Bobby was in Paris talking about ways to assassinate Castro?? It seems I've heard that too. No matter, the CIA at the least kept RFK apprised of developments and why not? Castro was openly threatening others.
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Very good. Well, really, it wasn't a great leap of faith that Castro and Che both wished to launch nukes on the US, in that day and age, why would one not think the worse.
Yes, we had our faults but probably not as bad as others.
Great well-researched article and honestly, wanting to eliminate Castro, well, that's more of the CIA deeds and maybe JFK didn't want to overrule it... though, it is a thing to research.
Not just some simple answer. Nothing would preclude one from trying to do both.
I think I read recently, some story of the CIA having contemplated attacks on the US homeland, mainly Florida and blaming it on Castro. I will look for the article and try to post it later.
I think I read recently, some story of the CIA having contemplated attacks on the US homeland, mainly Florida and blaming it on Castro. I will look for the article and try to post it later.
One of the ideas contemplated was a staged “attack” on a US ship at Guantanamo and made to appear that the Cubans attacked it...
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Shallow Research? Care to say where?
NO, they can't... this is written by Humberto Fontova, a very well-known Cuban-American writer. This is like so often, saying something that sounds so-called intellectual. It's not Fontova who mentioned anything about Operation Mongoose or anything like that, that the CIA overruled JFK or attempts on Castro. I think the person who said it is shallow research is the one who doesn't know anything about this and the only swamps I'd be thinking of might be the swamps where Operation Mongoose training took place.
BTW, don't they say Bobby was in Paris talking about ways to assassinate Castro?? It seems I've heard that too. No matter, the CIA at the least kept RFK apprised of developments and why not? Castro was openly threatening others.
BTW, don't they say Bobby was in Paris talking about ways to assassinate Castro??
So your research is based on rumor ?..... Actually Bobby was trying to open diplomacy with Castro through back channels.... Because so many powerful men in in the CIA and Washington were adamantly opposed to any friendly approach to Castro. The CIA and the Mafia and US businessmen wanted Castro dead.....Because
he had refused to allow them to continue raping Cuba. They wanted Castro Out of the way permanently.....
JFK had to communicate with Krueschev through back channels..... and he was trying to open a channel to Castro.
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BTW, don't they say Bobby was in Paris talking about ways to assassinate Castro??
So your research is based on rumor ?..... Actually Bobby was trying to open diplomacy with Castro through back channels.... Because so many powerful men in in the CIA and Washington were adamantly opposed to any friendly approach to Castro. The CIA and the Mafia and US businessmen wanted Castro dead.....Because
he had refused to allow them to continue raping Cuba. They wanted Castro Out of the way permanently.....
JFK had to communicate with Krueschev through back channels..... and he was trying to open a channel to Castro.
Another quote from Russo’s book:
In a 1997 interview, Haig elaborated on Bobby’s role: Bobby Kennedy was running it—hour by hour. I was part of it, as deputy to Joe Califano and military assistant to General Vance. We were conducting two raids a week at the height of that program against mainland Cuba. People were being killed, sugar mills were being blown up, bridges were demolished. We were using fast boats and mother ships and the United States Army was supporting and training these forces. This was after the Missile Crisis when the Cuban Coordinating Committee was set up [in 1963]. Cy Vance, the Secretary of the Army, was [presiding] over the State Department, the CIA, and the National Security Council. I was intimately involved. It was wrong-headed, I’m sorry to say. Weekly reports were rendered to Bobby Kennedy—he had a very tight hand on the operation.21
THAT was the “diplomacy” that Bobby was conducting.
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Another quote from Russo’s book:
Starting in early 1963, Williams, Barker, and Hunt would hold dozens of meetings in Washington and New York. Attempting to unite the various exile factions at Hunt’s direction, Harry Williams told Miami Cubans of an impending invasion, with initial infiltrations set to commence in December, 1963. Williams’ recruitment efforts were reported in the Associated Press: A new all-out drive to unify Cuban refugees into a single, powerful organization to topple the Fidel Castro regime was disclosed today by exile sources. The plan calls for formation of a junta in exile to mount a three-pronged thrust consisting of sabotage, infiltration and ultimate invasion. . . Seeking to put together the junta was Enrique [Harry] Ruiz-Williams, a Bay of Pigs invasion veteran, and friend of US. Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy. Cuban leaders said intensive sabotage and guerrilla activities inside Cuba might start in a month to spark a possible uprising. Hundreds of exiles, reported itching for action and resentful of U.S. imposed curbs against the anti-Castro raids, will be recruited to infiltrate Cuba, the sources added.38
(38 - Associated Press dispatch 10 May 1963)
So...
Shortly after LHO arrived in New Orleans, on the first day of work for the coffee company, this news came out and was most likely read by him. No wonder he decided to mess with the Cuban exiles... And the reported friendship with RFK probably caught his attention too...
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Oswald would be a perfect Castro assassination patsy to deflect attention towards the USSR, just wondering.
Yes, but why, then, did KGB triple-agent Aleksi Kulak (FBI's FEDORA) who duped J. Edgar Hoover for 15 years, go to the trouble of not only convincing JEH that that Golitsyn was "crazy" and Nosenko was "real deal," etc, but for purposes of this conversation temporarily convince JEH that Oleg Brykin of (FBI's TUMBLEWEED fame) at the U.N. was "Department 13"?
Look them up if you need to.
Hint: Guenter Schulz, Valery Kostikov, Ivan Obyedkov (mis-spelled "Byetkov" in Angleton's 1975 Church Committee testimony), Nikolai Leonov ("The Blond Oswald in Mexico City")
-- MWT ;)
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Yes, but why, then, did KGB triple-agent Aleksi Kulak (FBI's FEDORA) who duped J. Edgar Hoover for 15 years, go to the trouble of not only convincing JEH that that Golitsyn was "crazy" and Nosenko was "real deal," etc, but for purposes of this conversation temporarily convince JEH that Oleg Brykin of (FBI's TUMBLEWEED fame) at the U.N. was "Department 13"?
Look them up if you need to.
Hint: Guenter Schulz, Vaseli Kostikov, Ivan Obyedkov (mis-spelled "Byetkov" in Angleton's 1975 Church Committee testimony), Nikolai Leonov ("The Blond Oswald in Mexico City")
-- MWT ;)
Not sure you are following my drift Tommy. I am suggesting that Oswald would be a perfect patsy for a US plan to assassinate Castro. Just get him into Cuba at the appropriate time but no traceable US fingerprints. The supposed talked about invasion for December (see above post) possibly involved. My memory recalls some friction between Castro and Soviets in those times. Was it Castro looking to China that caused it? Can’t remember. In any event, little commie Russian defector would be cause for suspicion of a Soviet plan. Muddy the waters at least.
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Not sure you are following my drift Tommy. I am suggesting that Oswald would be a perfect patsy for a US plan to assassinate Castro. Just get him into Cuba at the appropriate time but no traceable US fingerprints. The supposed talked about invasion for December (see above post) possibly involved. My memory recalls some friction between Castro and Soviets in those times. Was it Castro looking to China that caused it? Can’t remember. In any event, little commie Russian defector would be cause for suspicion of a Soviet plan. Muddy the waters at least.
Of course I am, Colin.
I'm one step ahead of you, though, and I'm trying to impart some knowledge to you (and the others reading this thread) I've acquired over the past few years about how the KGB may have been involved in the assassination (even if it "only" involved its training/programming of Oswald in the USSR, and Khrushchev's getting "cold feet" too late and being unable to call Oswald off the mission), and specifically how the KGB apparently went through an elaborate, fairly long-range procedure in planting a Kremlin-protecting WW III Virus in Oswald's CIA file on Tuesday, October 1, 1963, which "virus" ensured that egg-on-his-face and Armageddon-fearing J. Edgar Hoover would cover up any indications of same, seein' as how he feared that Oswald had ostensibly been in contact with KGB's ostensible head of sabotage and assassinations in the Western Hemisphere, Valeriy Kostikov.
In a nutshell, the only reason the FBI and CIA believed Kostikov was Department 13 was because a guy who turned out to be a loyal-to-the-Kremlin triple-agent, Aleksei Kulak (FEDORA), had told the FBI shortly before Oswald (allegedly) went to Mexico City that Oleg Brykin at the U.N. was ... Department 13.
Capiche?
Didn't think so. But don't feel bad -- nobody does. It's way too complicated, there are way too many Russian names, and I haven't even told you about the "Blond Oswald In Mexico City," yet.
(Hint: Nikolai Leonov)
-- MWT ;)
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Of course I am, Colin.
I'm one step ahead of you, though, and I'm trying to impart some knowledge to you (and the others reading this thread) I've acquired over the past few years about how the KGB may have been involved in the assassination (even if it "only" involved its training/programming of Oswald in the USSR, and Khrushchev's getting "cold feet" too late and being unable to call Oswald off the mission), and specifically how the KGB apparently went through an elaborate, fairly long-range procedure in planting a Kremlin-protecting WW III Virus in Oswald's CIA file on Tuesday, October 1, 1963, which "virus" ensured that egg-on-his-face and Armageddon-fearing J. Edgar Hoover would cover up any indications of same, seein' as how he feared that Oswald had ostensibly been in contact with KGB's ostensible head of sabotage and assassinations in the Western Hemisphere, Valeriy Kostikov.
In a nutshell, the only reason the FBI and CIA believed Kostikov was Department 13 was because a guy who turned out to be a loyal-to-the-Kremlin triple-agent, Aleksei Kulak (FEDORA), had told the FBI shortly before Oswald (allegedly) went to Mexico City that Oleg Brykin at the U.N. was ... Department 13.
Capiche?
Didn't think so. But don't feel bad -- nobody does. It's way too complicated, there are way too many Russian names, and I haven't even told you about the "Blond Oswald In Mexico City," yet.
(Hint: Nikolai Leonov)
-- MWT ;)
So, the Soviets ( and Cubans?) made Oswald's Mexico City meetings ( with "them", I guess?) seem more damning, so that Hoover would ..make them less damning ( for him).
But, the Soviets and Cubans had already programmed Oswald as an assassin?
Ok.
( By the way, no, I do not approve of Putin. He's an evil man.)
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So, the Soviets ( and Cubans?) made Oswald's Mexico City meetings ( with "them", I guess?) seem more damning, so that Hoover would ..make them less damning ( for him).
But, the Soviets and Cubans had already programmed Oswald as an assassin?
Ok.
( By the way, no, I do not approve of Putin. He's an evil man.)
Hang in there, friend.
I think you might "get" it eventually.
You're about halfway there right now.
-- MWT ;)
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Hang in there, friend.
I think you might "get" it eventually.
You're about halfway there right now.
-- MWT ;)
Uh, that's ok, I don't want to get any farther than that.
Until you present something factual.
Thanks.
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Uh, that's ok, I don't want to get any farther than that.
Until you present something factual.
Thanks.
I guess CIA and FBI docs gotten (by others) through the FOIA process aren't "factual" enough for you?
Do you believe we live in a FBI and CIA-controlled Deep State?
LOL
-- MWT ;)
Try reading this 35-page 20154 PDF written by a guy who was on the fast-track to becoming Director of CIA until false-defector Yuri Nosenko "walked in" in Vienna in June of 1962, and then "defected" to the U.S. eight weeks after the assassination of JFK, for general information on the modus operandi of the humanitarian organization known as the KGB after it created a top-secret "KGB within the KGB" (Department D of the First Chief Directorate, and Department 14 of the Second Chief Directorate) in 1959 ...
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362
-- MWT ;)
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(Duplication-by-mistake ...
(Intended for John Tonkovich):
..
I guess CIA and FBI docs gotten (by others) through the FOIA process aren't "factual" enough for you, John?
Do you believe we live in a FBI and CIA-controlled Deep State?
-- MWT ;)
PS Try reading this 35-page 2014 PDF written by a guy who was on the fast-track to becoming Director of CIA until false-defector Yuri Nosenko "walked in" in Vienna in June of 19 yuh62, and, more devastatingly, "defected" to the U.S. eight weeks after the assassination of JFK, for general information on the modus operandi of the humanitarian organization known as the KGB after it created a top-secret "KGB within the KGB" (Department D of the First Chief Directorate, and Department 14 of the Second Chief Directorate) in 1959 ...
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362
There's hope for you and a few others, yet.
-- MWT ;)
Edit:
You wrote, "So, the Soviets (and Cubans?) made Oswald's Mexico City meetings (with "them", I guess?) seem more damning, so that Hoover would ..make them less damning (for him). But the Soviets and Cubans had already programmed Oswald as an assassin?"
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Kinda, John. (But only kinda.)
I'm saying the KGB probably trained and/or programmed Oswald in Minsk (as the former head of the Romanian "KGB," Ion Pacepa, claims).
I'm saying that at some point after Oswald had returned to the U.S., Khrushchev got "cold feet".
I'm saying Khrushchev tried, but was unable, to call Oswald off of the "hit".
I'm saying that J. Edgar Hoover's highly-trusted Aleksei Kulak (FEDORA), who was acknowledged by FBI in 1978 to have been a Kremlin-loyal triple-agent all along, fooled the FBI (and it the CIA) into believing for a year or so that known KGB officer Valeriy Kostikov at the Soviet consulate in Mexico City was the head of KGB's Western Hemisphere assassinations and sabotage department (Department 13).
I'm saying that a German national who was living in Oklahoma -- Guenter Schulz (FBI's TUMBLEWEED) -- and KGB's Oleg Brykin at the U.N., and KGB officer Kostikov, himself, wittingly or unwittingly colluded with Kulak to get the FBI and the CIA to swallow the above.
I'm saying that the KGB triple-agent James Angleton referred to as "Byetkov*?" in his 1975 top-secret Church Committee testimony, and as "the other hangnail" in his top-secret 1976 Church Committee testimony, was the (suspiciously highly paid) "security guard" at the Soviet embassy in Mexico City, Ivan Obyedkov (Bill Simpich agrees with me on this).
I'm saying that the "short, thin, blond-haired, 35 year-old, very thin-faced, suit-wearing "Oswald" who gave Sylvia Duran some passport-sized photos of Oswald (wearing a sweater vest and a tie) and who allegedly filled out the Cuban visa application form, was 35 year-old, short, thin, blond-haired, blue-eyed, very thin-faced KGB Colonel Nikolai Leonov (who was working at the Soviet Embassy as "Third Secretary" and "Assistant Cultural Attache").
I'm saying that Leonov, probably with Fidel Castro's permission, did not pretend to be Oswald, but did give Sylvia Duran the taken-in-Minsk photos of Oswald and the probably-forged-by-KGB Cuban visa application forms, and told Duran and Cuban Consul Eusebio Azcue what to do and say regarding this "Oswald".
I'm saying that Leonov probably impersonated Oswald in the sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phonecall from the Cuban consulate to the Soviet embassy or consulate on Saturday, September 28, and that he probably impersonated Oswald over a sure-to-be-tapped Soviet embassy phone line on Tuesday, October 1 (in which the above-mentioned triple-agent Ivan Obyedkov "volunteered" the name that had already been made "radioactive" by Kulak, Schulz, Brykin, and Kostikov, himself (see above) -- i.e., the name "KOSTIKOV" -- thereby planting a Kremlin (and World, come to think of it -- lol) protecting WW III Virus in Oswald's CIA file.
-- MWT ;)
PS As Peter Dale Scott points out near the end of Part II of John Newman's March 2018 youtube presentation "Spy Wars," there is a scrap of paper in CIA files that suggests the over-the-phone Oswald impersonator in Mexico City spoke both bad Russian and bad English. As I indicated above, I believe this over-the-telephone impersonator was KGB Colonel Nikolai Leonov. I believe that he naturally spoke bad English, and that his speaking bad Russian can be explained by his possibly not realizing how fluent Oswald was in that hard-to-learn language, i.e., that Leonov over-dramatized that aspect a bit.
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Edit:
You wrote, "So, the Soviets (and Cubans?) made Oswald's Mexico City meetings (with "them", I guess?) seem more damning, so that Hoover would ..make them less damning (for him). But the Soviets and Cubans had already programmed Oswald as an assassin?"
..
Kinda, John. (But only kinda.)
I'm saying the KGB probably trained and/or programmed Oswald in Minsk (as the former head of the Romanian "KGB," Ion Pacepa, claims).
I'm saying that at some point after Oswald had returned to the U.S., Khrushchev got "cold feet".
I'm saying Khrushchev tried, but was unable, to call Oswald off of the "hit".
I'm saying that J. Edgar Hoover's highly-trusted Aleksei Kulak (FEDORA), who was acknowledged by FBI in 1978 to have been a Kremlin-loyal triple agent all along, fooled the FBI (and it the CIA) into believing for a year or so that known KGB officer Valeriy Kostikov at the Soviet consulate in Mexico City was the head of KGB's Western Hemisphere assassinations and sabotage department (Department 13).
I'm saying that a German national who was living in Oklahoma -- Guenter Schulz (FBI's TUMBLEWEED) -- and KGB's Oleg Brykin at the U.N., and KGB officer Kostikov, himself, wittingly or unwittingly colluded with Kulak to get the FBI and the CIA to swallow the above.
I'm saying that the KGB triple-agent James Angleton referred to as "Byetkov*?" in his 1975 top-secret Church Committee testimony, and as "the other hangnail" in his top-secret 1976 Church Committee testimony, was the (suspiciously highly paid) "security guard" at the Soviet embassy in Mexico City, Ivan Obyedkov (Bill Simpich agrees with me on this).
I'm saying that the "short, thin, blond-haired, 35 year-old, very thin-faced, suit-wearing "Oswald" who gave Sylvia Duran some passport-sized photos of Oswald (wearing a sweater vest and a tie) and who allegedly filled out the Cuban visa application form, was 35 year-old, short, thin, blond-haired, blue-eyed, very thin-faced KGB Colonel Nikolai Leonov (who was working at the Soviet Embassy as "Third Secretary" and "Assistant Cultural Attache").
I'm saying that Leonov, probably with Fidel Castro's permission, did not pretend to be Oswald, but did give Sylvia Duran the taken-in-Minsk photos of Oswald and the probably-forged-by-KGB Cuban visa application forms, and told Duran and Cuban Consul Eusebio Azcue what to do and say regarding this "Oswald".
I'm saying that Leonov probably impersonated Oswald in the sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phonecall from the Cuban consulate to the Soviet embassy or consulate on Saturday, September 28, and that he probably impersonated Oswald over a sure-to-be-tapped Soviet embassy phone line on Tuesday, October 1 (in which the above-mentioned triple-agent Ivan Obyedkov "volunteered" the name that had already been made "radioactive" by Kulak, Schulz, Brykin, and Kostikov, himself (see above) -- i.e., the name "KOSTIKOV" -- thereby planting a Kremlin (and World, come to think of it -- lol) protecting WW III Virus in Oswald's CIA file.
-- MWT ;)
PS As Peter Dale Scott points out near the end of Part II of John Newman's March 2018 youtube presentation "Spy Wars," there is a scrap of paper in CIA files that suggests the over-the-phone Oswald impersonator in Mexico City spoke both bad Russian and bad English. As I indicated above, I believe this over-the-telephone impersonator was KGB Colonel Nikolai Leonov. I believe that he naturally spoke bad English, and that his speaking bad Russian can be explained by his possibly not realizing how fluent Oswald was in that hard-to-learn language, i.e., that Leonov over-dramatized that aspect a bit.
Uh, getting beyond the fact that it was bad Spanish and English, I believe?...
I see no factual material.
I would be happy to see some.
Thanks.
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Uh, getting beyond the fact that it was bad Spanish and English, I believe?...
I see no factual material.
I would be happy to see some.
Thanks.
John,
Uh, as I said above, Peter Dale Scott says near the end of Part II of John Newman's March 2018 youtube "Spy Wars" presentation that there's a scrap of paper in CIA files that suggests the over-the-phone Oswald imposter spoke bad RUSSIAN and bad ENGLISH.
I've seen that scrap of paper on the Internet, and I agree with Scott on this.
Perhaps you can find it, too
(Why should I go to the trouble of digging it up for you?)
I will, however, post that "Spy Wars" youtube video here for you in a few minutes, and I'll even track down Scott's statement in it for you, and I'll post the "minutes and seconds" mark for you to make it really, really easy for you to find it, okay?
-- MWT ;)
Edit:
Here it is.
Go to 38:07
PS Fwiw, Peter Dale Scott misspeaks a few seconds before the 37-minute mark when he alleges that on Tuesday October 1st, "Oswald" told Obyedkov over the phone that he had spoken on the phone with the Soviet consul (Kostikov) the previous Saturday, (September the 28th), when in reality "Oswald" didn't say that to Obyedkov -- what he said was that he had visited the Soviet consulate that Saturday and had spoken there with the consul.
It"s interesting to see that neither Newman nor Scott believe that a phonecall from Sylvia Duran (and "Oswald") to the Soviet consulate on that Saturday took place -- Newman because "the guys at the Soviet consulate were getting ready to play a volleyball game," and Scott (apparently) because "Nechiporenko told me that the Soviet consulate's switchboard was closed on Saturdays."
I personally believe that a phonecall from Duran and "Oswald" (Nikolai Leonov) at the Cuban consulate to the Soviet consulate did take place on Saturday.
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John,
Uh, as I said above, Peter Dale Scott says near the end of Part II of John Newman's March 2018 youtube "Spy Wars" presentation that there's a scrap of paper in CIA files that suggests the over-the-phone Oswald imposter spoke bad RUSSIAN and bad ENGLISH.
I've seen that scrap of paper on the Internet, and I agree with Scott on this.
Perhaps you can find it, too
(Why should I go to the trouble of digging it up for you?)
I will, however, post that "Spy Wars" youtube video here for you in a few minutes, and I'll even track down Scott's statement in it for you, and I'll post the "minutes and seconds" mark for you to make it really, really easy for you to find it, okay?
-- MWT ;)
Edit:
Here it is.
Go to 38:07
PS Fwiw, Peter Dale Scott misspeaks a few seconds before the 37-minute mark when he alleges that on Tuesday October 1st, "Oswald" told Obyedkov over the phone that he had spoken on the phone with the Soviet consul (Kostikov) the previous Saturday, (September the 28th), when in reality "Oswald" didn't say that to Obyedkov -- what he said was that he had visited the Soviet consulate that Saturday and had spoken there with the consul.
It"s interesting to see that neither Newman nor Scott believe that a phonecall from Sylvia Duran (and "Oswald") to the Soviet consulate on that Saturday took place -- Newman because "the guys at the Soviet consulate were getting ready to play a volleyball game," and Scott (apparently) because "Nechiporenko told me that the Soviet consulate's switchboard was closed on Saturdays."
I personally believe that a phonecall from Duran and "Oswald" (Nikolai Leonov) at the Cuban consulate to the Soviet consulate did take place on Saturday.
The Tasaroffs say "bad Russian".
And since they listened to all three calls, I think I'll say no more.
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The Tasaroffs say "bad Russian".
And since they listened to all three calls, I think I'll say no more.
John-ovich,
Uh, point being?
Do you think PDS was wrong about "Oswald's" speaking bad English (and bad Russian) over the phone?
Did Tasaroff speak good English?
Where do you think that paper fragment PDS refers to in the video ... uh ... originated?
Isn't it possible that the fact "Oswald" spoke English badly over the phone was a game-changer, and the powers-that-be believed it had to be covered up in order to prevent Nuclear Armeggedon? Could the fact that the fragment was torn be an example of the coverup in-and-of itself?
-- MWT ;)
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John-ovich,
Uh, point being?
Do you think PDS was wrong about "Oswald's" speaking bad English (and bad Russian) over the phone?
Did Tasaroff speak good English?
Where do you think that paper fragment PDS refers to in the video ... uh ... originated?
Isn't it possible that the fact "Oswald" spoke English badly over the phone was a game-changer, and the powers-that-be believed it had to be covered up in order to prevent Nuclear Armeggedon? Could the fact that the fragment was torn be an example of the coverup in-and-of itself?
-- MWT ;)
The Tasaroffs transcribed and translated the tapes.
Their testimony- years later, HSCA - mentions the third conversation for the first time. That call is Oswald begging for money. ( all part of an elaborate stage show, courtesy of..some Westerners looking to link Oswald to the East? Like the guy who came forward in Mexico City, then retracted his statement?)
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The Tasaroffs transcribed and translated the tapes.
Their testimony- years later, HSCA - mentions the third conversation for the first time. That call is Oswald begging for money. (all part of an elaborate stage show, courtesy of..some Westerners looking to link Oswald to the East? Like the guy who came forward in Mexico City, then retracted his statement?)
Uh ... well ... yes, it could have been (and probably was) an elaborate stage show, courtesy of the KGB and the DGI rather than by the evil, evil, evil CIA (whether Oswald actually shot JFK for the KGB, or ... gasp ..."went rogue," and shot Charismatic Anti-Communist John F. Kennedy in order to .. uh ... advance the "Dialectic").
"But, for what purpose?" you might ask.
Well, to plant the aforementioned "WW III Virus" in Oswald's CIA file so that, in their reasonably expected desire to avoid Nuclear Armeggedon, the FBI and CIA would be forced to cover up Moscow's (and probably Havana's) involvement in the assassination.
We have reasonable grounds for believing that KGB Colonel Nikolai Leonov provided Sylvia Duran at the Cuban consulate with some taken-in-Minsk photos of Oswald (wearing a sweater vest, white shirt and tie), and an already-forged-by-KGB Cuban visa form or two, and that, rather than impersonate Oswald physically (D'oh), he told Duran and Azcue what to do and say.
We are justified in believing this because Duran (in 1963 and 1978) and Azcue (in 1978) described the "Oswald" they'd dealt with in such a way that matched short (5' 7"), thin, blond-haired, blue-eyed, 35 year-old, suit-wearing, very thin-faced Leonov to a "T" , and we have reasonable grounds for believing that Ivan Obyedkov, CIA's putative double-agent at the Soviet embassy who volunteered the made-radioactive-by-KGB name "Kostikov" to "Oswald" over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phoneline, was actually a still-loyal-to-KGB triple-agent.
-- MWT ;)
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Uh ... well ... yes, it could have been (and probably was) an elaborate stage show, courtesy of the KGB and the DGI rather than by the evil, evil, evil CIA (whether Oswald actually shot JFK for the KGB, or ... gasp ..."went rogue," and shot Charismatic Anti-Communist John F. Kennedy in order to .. uh ... advance the "Dialectic").
"But, for what purpose?" you might ask.
Well, to plant the aforementioned "WW III Virus" in Oswald's CIA file so that, in their reasonably expected desire to avoid Nuclear Armeggedon, the FBI and CIA would be forced to cover up Moscow's (and probably Havana's) involvement in the assassination.
We have reasonable grounds for believing that KGB Colonel Nikolai Leonov provided Sylvia Duran at the Cuban consulate with some taken-in-Minsk photos of Oswald (wearing a sweater vest, white shirt and tie), and an already-forged-by-KGB Cuban visa form or two, and that, rather than impersonate Oswald physically (D'oh), he told Duran and Azcue what to do and say.
We are justified in believing this because Duran (in 1963 and 1978) and Azcue (in 1978) described the "Oswald" they'd dealt with in such a way that matched short (5' 7"), thin, blond-haired, blue-eyed, 35 year-old, suit-wearing, very thin-faced Leonov to a "T" , and we have reasonable grounds for believing that Ivan Obyedkov, CIA's putative double-agent at the Soviet embassy who volunteered the made-radioactive-by-KGB name "Kostikov" to "Oswald" over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phoneline, was actually a still-loyal-to-KGB triple-agent.
-- MWT ;)
Interesting. And some evidence, perhaps?
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Interesting. And some evidence, perhaps?
John,
Evidence of what?
That the "Oswald" Duran and Azcue dealt with was probably short, thin, blond-haired, blue-eyed, 35 year-old, suit-wearing, very thin-faced "Third Secretary/Assistant Cultural Attache" Nikolai Leonov?
That the passport-sized photos this "Oswald" gave Duran of real-deal Oswald were probably taken in Minsk?
That what triple-agent Aleksei Kulak (FEDORA) told FBI was the only reason FBI and CIA (tentatively) believed KGB officer Valiery Kostikov in Mexico City was "Department 13"?
That the guy who "volunteered" the made-radioactive-by-KGB name "Kostikov" to "Oswald" over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phone line was someone (Ivan Obyedkov) whom CIA believed it had recruited, but was actually still loyal to the Kremlin?
That this "Oswald" who spoke with Obyedkov on the phone was probably a native Russia-speaking KGB officer/agent, and could very well have been Leonov?
All of the above?
-- MWT ;)
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John,
Evidence of what?
That the "Oswald" Duran and Azcue dealt with was probably short, thin, blond-haired, blue-eyed, 35 year-old, suit-wearing, very thin-faced "Third Secretary/Assistant Cultural Attache" Nikolai Leonov?
That the passport-sized photos this "Oswald" gave Duran of real-deal Oswald were probably taken in Minsk?
That what triple-agent Aleksei Kulak (FEDORA) told FBI was the only reason FBI and CIA (tentatively) believed KGB officer Valiery Kostikov in Mexico City was "Department 13"?
That the guy who "volunteered" the made-radioactive-by-KGB name "Kostikov" to "Oswald" over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phone line was someone (Ivan Obyedkov) whom CIA believed it had recruited, but was actually still loyal to the Kremlin?
That this "Oswald" who spoke with Obyedkov on the phone was probably a native Russia-speaking KGB officer/agent, and could very well have been Leonov?
All of the above?
-- MWT ;)
That the passport-sized photos this "Oswald" gave Duran of real-deal Oswald were probably taken in Minsk?
Bulls eye, Quick Draw...You've just shot yerself in the foot.....
You are correct the photo is definitely Lee Oswald.........And it definitely was attached to a document that Lee had in his possession. That document was referred to ( Erroneously ) as Lee Oswald's "selective service identification card "...... ( It was not a selective service ID card because a SS ID card (draft card does not carry a photo of the draftee)
However Lee's ID as a secret agent was a replica of a GI dependent's ID card. ( The dependent's ID did carry a photo of the dependent) When Lee returned to the Us he was required to turn in that agent's ID card...but Lee made a photocopy of it before he turned it in and he used the photocopy to create a fake official looking ID card.... But he had to attach a photo to the card so he used the minsk photo that had the lower right corner cut off where a stamp had been ...He then used a US quarter dollar coin and an ink pad to create a stamp on the card prior to laminating the card.
Lee had these documents in his possession.....Some impostor could not have had the documents.
P.S......You might find it interesting and informative ....Francis Gary Powers, ( a CIA agent) also carried a dependent's ID card ( just like Oswald's) when he was shot down over Russia on May day of 1961. ( Powers tried to destroy that card before the Russians captured him) And Richard Case Nagell ( a CIA agent) also carried that dependent's identification card.....
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Cakewalk I mean Cakebread,
We're talking about different photos.
I'm talking about the passport-sized photos that were affixed to Oswald's Cuban visa application forms and which show him wearing a sweater vest, white shirt and tie.
D'oh
-- MWT ;)
.....
You posted:
That the passport-sized photos this "Oswald" gave Duran of real-deal Oswald were probably taken in Minsk?
Bulls eye, Quick Draw...You've just shot yerself in the foot.....
You are correct the photo is definitely Lee Oswald.........And it definitely was attached to a document that Lee had in his possession. That document was referred to ( Erroneously ) as Lee Oswald's "selective service identification card "...... ( It was not a selective service ID card because a SS ID card (draft card does not carry a photo of the draftee)
However Lee's ID as a secret agent was a replica of a GI dependent's ID card. ( The dependent's ID did carry a photo of the dependent) When Lee returned to the Us he was required to turn in that agent's ID card...but Lee made a photocopy of it before he turned it in and he used the photocopy to create a fake official looking ID card.... But he had to attach a photo to the card so he used the minsk photo that had the lower right corner cut off where a stamp had been ...He then used a US quarter dollar coin and an ink pad to create a stamp on the card prior to laminating the card.
Lee had these documents in his possession.....Some impostor could not have had the documents.
P.S......You might find it interesting and informative ....Francis Gary Powers, ( a CIA agent) also carried a dependent's ID card ( just like Oswald's) when he was shot down over Russia on May day of 1961. ( Powers tried to destroy that card before the Russians captured him) And Richard Case Nagell ( a CIA agent) also carried that dependent's identification card.....
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Have you posted the photo?
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Have you posted the photo?
Cakebread,
No, I haven't.
Why, can't you find it?
They're the identical passport-sized photos that were affixed to the Cuban visa application forms showing Oswald wearing his favorite sweater vest, white spombleprofglidnoctobuns shirt and tie.
Another one just like them can be seen in his scrapbook/photo book, next to a photo of the river in Minsk which was evidently taken from his balcony.
Maybe if you google oswald and "cuban visa" simultaneously, and then click on "images"?
Have you tried that yet?
-- MWT ;)
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Cakebread,
No, I haven't.
Why, can't you find it?
They're the identical passport-sized photos that were affixed to the Cuban visa application forms showing Oswald wearing his favorite sweater vest, white spombleprofglidnoctobuns and tie.
Another one just like them can be seen in his scrapbook/photo book, next to a photo of the river in Minsk which was evidently taken from his balcony.
Maybe if you google oswald and "cuban visa" simultaneously, and then click on "images"?
Have you tried that yet?
-- MWT ;)
Oswald wearing his favorite sweater vest, white spombleprofglidnoctobuns and tie.....
Yer weird.... "White spombleprofglidnoctobuns"..... How do you know what kind of cologne Lee was using?
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Oswald wearing his favorite sweater vest, white spombleprofglidnoctobuns and tie.....
Yer weird.... "White spombleprofglidnoctobuns"..... How do you know what kind of cologne Lee was using?
Oh, that's funny!
I had actually written, "... wearing his favorite (his only?) sweater vest ..." before I decided to leave out the bit in parentheses.
Regardless, is that the best shot you got, Cakewalk?
Are you embarrassed for saying I'd "shot myself in the foot," and then realizing I was talking about a different photo altogether, you jerk, you?
LOL
-- MWT ;)
PS Oh, I see. I wrote spombleprofglidnoctobuns instead of "shirt". I must have been thinking about you, Walter. My bad.
Have you found the photo yet?
Perhaps someone will post it here for you. So you don't get all confused, again.
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Edit:
You wrote, "So, the Soviets (and Cubans?) made Oswald's Mexico City meetings (with "them", I guess?) seem more damning, so that Hoover would ..make them less damning (for him). But the Soviets and Cubans had already programmed Oswald as an assassin?"
..
Kinda, John. (But only kinda.)
I'm saying the KGB probably trained and/or programmed Oswald in Minsk (as the former head of the Romanian "KGB," Ion Pacepa, claims).
I'm saying that at some point after Oswald had returned to the U.S., Khrushchev got "cold feet".
I'm saying Khrushchev tried, but was unable, to call Oswald off of the "hit".
I'm saying that J. Edgar Hoover's highly-trusted Aleksei Kulak (FEDORA), who was acknowledged by FBI in 1978 to have been a Kremlin-loyal triple-agent all along, fooled the FBI (and it the CIA) into believing for a year or so that known KGB officer Valeriy Kostikov at the Soviet consulate in Mexico City was the head of KGB's Western Hemisphere assassinations and sabotage department (Department 13).
I'm saying that a German national who was living in Oklahoma -- Guenter Schulz (FBI's TUMBLEWEED) -- and KGB's Oleg Brykin at the U.N., and KGB officer Kostikov, himself, wittingly or unwittingly colluded with Kulak to get the FBI and the CIA to swallow the above.
I'm saying that the KGB triple-agent James Angleton referred to as "Byetkov*?" in his 1975 top-secret Church Committee testimony, and as "the other hangnail" in his top-secret 1976 Church Committee testimony, was the (suspiciously highly paid) "security guard" at the Soviet embassy in Mexico City, Ivan Obyedkov (Bill Simpich agrees with me on this).
I'm saying that the "short, thin, blond-haired, 35 year-old, very thin-faced, suit-wearing "Oswald" who gave Sylvia Duran some passport-sized photos of Oswald (wearing a sweater vest and a tie) and who allegedly filled out the Cuban visa application form, was 35 year-old, short, thin, blond-haired, blue-eyed, very thin-faced KGB Colonel Nikolai Leonov (who was working at the Soviet Embassy as "Third Secretary" and "Assistant Cultural Attache").
I'm saying that Leonov, probably with Fidel Castro's permission, did not pretend to be Oswald, but did give Sylvia Duran the taken-in-Minsk photos of Oswald and the probably-forged-by-KGB Cuban visa application forms, and told Duran and Cuban Consul Eusebio Azcue what to do and say regarding this "Oswald".
I'm saying that Leonov probably impersonated Oswald in the sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phonecall from the Cuban consulate to the Soviet embassy or consulate on Saturday, September 28, and that he probably impersonated Oswald over a sure-to-be-tapped Soviet embassy phone line on Tuesday, October 1 (in which the above-mentioned triple-agent Ivan Obyedkov "volunteered" the name that had already been made "radioactive" by Kulak, Schulz, Brykin, and Kostikov, himself (see above) -- i.e., the name "KOSTIKOV" -- thereby planting a Kremlin (and World, come to think of it -- lol) protecting WW III Virus in Oswald's CIA file.
-- MWT ;)
PS As Peter Dale Scott points out near the end of Part II of John Newman's March 2018 youtube presentation "Spy Wars," there is a scrap of paper in CIA files that suggests the over-the-phone Oswald impersonator in Mexico City spoke both bad Russian and bad English. As I indicated above, I believe this over-the-telephone impersonator was KGB Colonel Nikolai Leonov. I believe that he naturally spoke bad English, and that his speaking bad Russian can be explained by his possibly not realizing how fluent Oswald was in that hard-to-learn language, i.e., that Leonov over-dramatized that aspect a bit.
I'm saying that the "short, thin, blond-haired, 35 year-old, very thin-faced, suit-wearing "Oswald" who gave Sylvia Duran some passport-sized photos of Oswald (wearing a sweater vest and a tie) and who allegedly filled out the Cuban visa application form, was 35 year-old, short, thin, blond-haired, blue-eyed, very thin-faced KGB Colonel Nikolai Leonov (who was working at the Soviet Embassy as "Third Secretary" and "Assistant Cultural Attache").
So you think that Ms. Duran was so stupid that she couldn't see that the man that was presenting the photo, looked very different than the man in the photo???
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I'm saying that the "short, thin, blond-haired, 35 year-old, very thin-faced, suit-wearing "Oswald" who gave Sylvia Duran some passport-sized photos of Oswald (wearing a sweater vest and a tie) and who allegedly filled out the Cuban visa application form, was 35 year-old, short, thin, blond-haired, blue-eyed, very thin-faced KGB Colonel Nikolai Leonov (who was working at the Soviet Embassy as "Third Secretary" and "Assistant Cultural Attache").
So you think that Ms. Duran was so stupid that she couldn't see that the man that was presenting the photo, looked very different than the man in the photo???
Cakebread,
I've written elsewhere (perhaps at this wonderful forum, or perhaps at the EF back in the day, or perhaps at my neglected-by-me FB page "Jumbo Duh Is Full Of Beans") that I don't believe Leonov physically impersonated Oswald at the Cuban Consulate, but that he gave those taken-in-Minsk photos of Oswald to Duran (probably with some already-forged-by-KGB Cuban visa applications), and, with Fidel's consent, told Duran and Azcue what to do and say regarding this virtual "Oswald" (who may even have been in Mexico City at the time, trying to get to Cuba to meet with a KGB officer by the name of "Kostin" for some unknown-by-us reason).
I should have made that more clear in my post, above.
Sorry about that.
Next question?
-- MWT ;)
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Here is a quote from Gus Russo’s book “Live by the Sword”:
During the second week of November 1963, Oswald worked on drafts of a letter that, on November 12th, he would send to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. The letter is replete with Oswald lies and exaggerations about his time in Mexico, Hosty, etc. However, the letter’s most intriguing aspect is its closing sentence, which refers to the “stupid” Cuban Consul (Azcue), and how Oswald was “glad he had been replaced by another.”66 Azcue would be replaced at the Cuban Embassy on November 18. The obvious question is: How did Oswald know of this personnel change (and a week before it took place)? Was this common knowledge among young warehouse workers in Dallas?
The Mexico City details are often what are most questioned by researchers. It does seem unlikely to me that LHO would have been told of the personnel change if his actions and behavior in Mexico City were simply what was reported by the WC. Was he staying in contact with someone there?
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Here is a quote from Gus Russo’s book “Live by the Sword”:
During the second week of November 1963, Oswald worked on drafts of a letter that, on November 12th, he would send to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. The letter is replete with Oswald lies and exaggerations about his time in Mexico, Hosty, etc. However, the letter’s most intriguing aspect is its closing sentence, which refers to the “stupid” Cuban Consul (Azcue), and how Oswald was “glad he had been replaced by another.”66 Azcue would be replaced at the Cuban Embassy on November 18. The obvious question is: How did Oswald know of this personnel change (and a week before it took place)? Was this common knowledge among young warehouse workers in Dallas?
The Mexico City details are often what are most questioned by researchers. It does seem unlikely to me that LHO would have been told of the personnel change if his actions and behavior in Mexico City were simply what was reported by the WC. Was he staying in contact with someone there?
The letter is replete with Oswald lies and exaggerations about his time in Mexico, Hosty, etc. However, the letter’s most intriguing aspect is its closing sentence, which refers to the “stupid” Cuban Consul (Azcue), and how Oswald was “glad he had been replaced by another.”66 Azcue would be replaced at the Cuban Embassy on November 18. The obvious question is: How did Oswald know of this personnel change (and a week before it took place)? Was this common knowledge among young warehouse workers in Dallas?[/i]
The letter is replete with Oswald lies and exaggerations about his time in Mexico, Hosty, etc.
Can we discuss what you believe to be lies??.....
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The letter is replete with Oswald lies and exaggerations about his time in Mexico, Hosty, etc. However, the letter’s most intriguing aspect is its closing sentence, which refers to the “stupid” Cuban Consul (Azcue), and how Oswald was “glad he had been replaced by another.”66 Azcue would be replaced at the Cuban Embassy on November 18. The obvious question is: How did Oswald know of this personnel change (and a week before it took place)? Was this common knowledge among young warehouse workers in Dallas?[/i]
The letter is replete with Oswald lies and exaggerations about his time in Mexico, Hosty, etc.
Can we discuss what you believe to be lies??.....
Gus Russo wrote those words (I just quoted them from his book), so you would need to ask him. If you want to discuss what LHO wrote, just begin by citing what LHO wrote and your opinion of it. I will be happy to respond.
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Gus Russo wrote those words (I just quoted them from his book), so you would need to ask him. If you want to discuss what LHO wrote, just begin by citing what LHO wrote and your opinion of it. I will be happy to respond.
As an opener....On page 311 of the WR there is presented the typed letter and Lee Oswald's scribbled rough drafts of the letter. We now know that Ruth Paine called FBI agent Hosty about the letter. and she gave him the rough draft that she had retrieved from the waste paper basket. This is the action of an FBI informant.
The only falsehood that I can see at the moment is that Lee said that he was using a false name when he traveled to Mexico City..... So he knew that the name typed on his Mexican tourist card was Lee, Harvey Oswald .... As if his first name was Harvey, and his last name was Lee......
But I'm not sure that Lee told them that they had recorded his name backwards..... He just traveled with that card and didn't worry about the error....until he wrote the letter to the Russian embassy..... Then he used the error as an excuse for not applying for an extension of his permit.
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As an opener....On page 311 of the WR there is presented the typed letter and Lee Oswald's scribbled rough drafts of the letter. We now know that Ruth Paine called FBI agent Hosty about the letter. and she gave him the rough draft that she had retrieved from the waste paper basket. This is the action of an FBI informant.
The only falsehood that I can see at the moment is that Lee said that he was using a false name when he traveled to Mexico City..... So he knew that the name typed on his Mexican tourist card was Lee, Harvey Oswald .... As if his first name was Harvey, and his last name was Lee......
But I'm not sure that Lee told them that they had recorded his name backwards..... He just traveled with that card and didn't worry about the error....until he wrote the letter to the Russian embassy..... Then he used the error as an excuse for not applying for an extension of his permit.
Are you expecting me to try to determine what I think what Gus Russo considers to be Oswald’s lies? Or are you going to do that?
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Are you expecting me to try to determine what I think what Gus Russo considers to be Oswald’s lies? Or are you going to do that?
I assume that you agree with Russo..... So you probably think that parts of the letter are lies.
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I assume that you agree with Russo..... So you probably think that parts of the letter are lies.
I have the opinion that LHO was a frequent liar. But I don’t have that particular letter memorized. And will need to research it when I get the time...
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I assume that you agree with Russo..... So you probably think that parts of the letter are lies.
Okay, I have read the letter and here are my opinions:
1. You have already brought up the "real name" item. I don't have any further comment about that one.
2. The I and Marina ... are now living in Dallas, TX sentence is possibly something that Gus Russo considers a technical lie (or at least misleading). Since the two were married, Lee's sentence implies that they were living together. They were not, and Marina was technically not living in Dallas but in Irving, TX (yes, I know it is a suburb of Dallas). Personally, I don't consider this to be of much significance and I doubt that Gus Russo does either. But it is typical of LHO's propensity to not tell the truth and I think it is possibly one item that Gus would point out if he were responding to your question.
3. The sentence in which LHO indicates he was secretary of the FPCC in New Orleans is also something that I believe Gus Russo would point to in response to your question. I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that there were any other FPCC members in New Orleans besides LHO. It appears to me that LHO at least exaggerated when he described himself (as secretary) and I believe that most people would probably consider that a lie. Also, I cannot believe that LHO actually knew whether or not the FBI was interested in his FPCC activities or not. So that would also be an item that I believe Gus Russo would point to in response to your question.
4. The sentence regarding the November 1st visit by Hosty to the Paine residence states that Hosty visited us and warned LHO about participating in FPCC activities in Dallas. Hosty didn't even see LHO on that visit because he wasn't there (so the "visited us" is not accurate, he visited Marina and Ruth but not LHO). And neither Ruth Paine or Marina have said anything about Hosty warning anybody about FPCC activities. So there are two items that I believe Gus would point to in response to your question.
5. The sentence regarding Hosty suggesting Marina could defect from the Soviet Union appears to me to be a lie. I haven't seen any evidence that would support this, what I have seen simply indicates that Hosty assured Marina and Ruth that he was only gathering information. I also haven't seen any evidence that would support LHO's claim that he and his wife strongly protested the alleged tactics by the FBI. The mysterious note LHO allegedly left at the FBI's office might have contained a protest. But was this letter written before the alleged note was delivered? And I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that Marina even knew about the alleged note, so how could she have been a part of a strong protest? These are items that I believe Gus would point to in response to your question.
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I have the opinion that LHO was a frequent liar. But I don’t have that particular letter memorized. And will need to research it when I get the time...
I have the opinion that LHO was a frequent liar.
Perhaps you could be right.... But I don't think so.... Not that Lee didn't lie....He most certainly did...That's the hallmark of a intel agent. And Lee was a spy.
However, he didn't lie like a tall tale spewing Texan......
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Okay, I have read the letter and here are my opinions:
1. You have already brought up the "real name" item. I don't have any further comment about that one.
2. The I and Marina ... are now living in Dallas, TX sentence is possibly something that Gus Russo considers a technical lie (or at least misleading). Since the two were married, Lee's sentence implies that they were living together. They were not, and Marina was technically not living in Dallas but in Irving, TX (yes, I know it is a suburb of Dallas). Personally, I don't consider this to be of much significance and I doubt that Gus Russo does either. But it is typical of LHO's propensity to not tell the truth and I think it is possibly one item that Gus would point out if he were responding to your question.
3. The sentence in which LHO indicates he was secretary of the FPCC in New Orleans is also something that I believe Gus Russo would point to in response to your question. I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that there were any other FPCC members in New Orleans besides LHO. It appears to me that LHO at least exaggerated when he described himself (as secretary) and I believe that most people would probably consider that a lie. Also, I cannot believe that LHO actually knew whether or not the FBI was interested in his FPCC activities or not. So that would also be an item that I believe Gus Russo would point to in response to your question.
4. The sentence regarding the November 1st visit by Hosty to the Paine residence states that Hosty visited us and warned LHO about participating in FPCC activities in Dallas. Hosty didn't even see LHO on that visit because he wasn't there (so the "visited us" is not accurate, he visited Marina and Ruth but not LHO). And neither Ruth Paine or Marina have said anything about Hosty warning anybody about FPCC activities. So there are two items that I believe Gus would point to in response to your question.
5. The sentence regarding Hosty suggesting Marina could defect from the Soviet Union appears to me to be a lie. I haven't seen any evidence that would support this, what I have seen simply indicates that Hosty assured Marina and Ruth that he was only gathering information. I also haven't seen any evidence that would support LHO's claim that he and his wife strongly protested the alleged tactics by the FBI. The mysterious note LHO allegedly left at the FBI's office might have contained a protest. But was this letter written before the alleged note was delivered? And I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that Marina even knew about the alleged note, so how could she have been a part of a strong protest? These are items that I believe Gus would point to in response to your question.
Personally, I don't consider this to be of much significance and I doubt that Gus Russo does either. But it is typical of LHO's propensity to not tell the truth and I think it is possibly one item that Gus would point out if he were responding to your question.
Weak, very weak.....And a stretch....
t appears to me that LHO at least exaggerated when he described himself (as secretary) and I believe that most people would probably consider that a lie.
On this point I would agree ...Lee was exaggerating .......
I cannot believe that LHO actually knew whether or not the FBI was interested in his FPCC activities or not.
Since I suspect that much of the information in the letter was actually intended for the eyes of the FBI ( They opened all of the mail that was addressed to the Soviet Embassy) I believe that Lee was telling FBI headquarters that He may start another chapter of the FPFCC in Dallas and the FBI could monitor his activities .
(so the "visited us" is not accurate, he visited Marina and Ruth but not LHO)
I'd point out that it's very common for a married couple to be referred to as one ....Therefore the visit to Marina was also a visit to Lee.
The sentence regarding Hosty suggesting Marina could defect from the Soviet Union appears to me to be a lie.
I believe that Lee was being deceptive .... Marina didn't need to "defect" from the USSR.... She was the wife of a US citizen...and that automatically made her a US citizen. I believe the part about the "notorious FBI" was fluff for the eyes of the Russians.... They certainly thought the FBI was "notorious" so Lee was simply being sly by pretending that he also thought the FBI was "notorious"
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Personally, I don't consider this to be of much significance and I doubt that Gus Russo does either. But it is typical of LHO's propensity to not tell the truth and I think it is possibly one item that Gus would point out if he were responding to your question.
Weak, very weak.....And a stretch....
t appears to me that LHO at least exaggerated when he described himself (as secretary) and I believe that most people would probably consider that a lie.
On this point I would agree ...Lee was exaggerating .......
I cannot believe that LHO actually knew whether or not the FBI was interested in his FPCC activities or not.
Since I suspect that much of the information in the letter was actually intended for the eyes of the FBI ( They opened all of the mail that was addressed to the Soviet Embassy) I believe that Lee was telling FBI headquarters that He may start another chapter of the FPFCC in Dallas and the FBI could monitor his activities .
(so the "visited us" is not accurate, he visited Marina and Ruth but not LHO)
I'd point out that it's very common for a married couple to be referred to as one ....Therefore the visit to Marina was also a visit to Lee.
The sentence regarding Hosty suggesting Marina could defect from the Soviet Union appears to me to be a lie.
I believe that Lee was being deceptive .... Marina didn't need to "defect" from the USSR.... She was the wife of a US citizen...and that automatically made her a US citizen. I believe the part about the "notorious FBI" was fluff for the eyes of the Russians.... They certainly thought the FBI was "notorious" so Lee was simply being sly by pretending that he also thought the FBI was "notorious"
Weak, very weak.....And a stretch....
Maybe, but the point is that I believe that he was stretching things purposely in order to not divulge to the Soviets that he was separated from Marina, and, more importantly, that he wasn’t fully supporting Marina and June (Ruth Paine was mostly providing the support).
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I have the opinion that LHO was a frequent liar.
Perhaps you could be right.... But I don't think so.... Not that Lee didn't lie....He most certainly did...That's the hallmark of a intel agent. And Lee was a spy.
However, he didn't lie like a tall tale spewing Texan......
And Lee was a spy.
Yeah, kind of like he was the secretary of the New Orleans chapter of the FPCC...
I think that Marguerite also said that she thought LHO was a spy. So you are in “good company.”
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And Lee was a spy.
Yeah, kind of like he was the secretary of the New Orleans chapter of the FPCC...
I think that Marguerite also said that she thought LHO was a spy. So you are in “good company.”
Unless you have no imagination at ( as is common with many LNer's ) you'd have to blind not to recognize that Lee was a intell agent.....He was with the State Dep't when he took the mission to the USSR....and I'm not sure who he was working for when he returned to the US....( I suspect that he was working for RFK ) But he thought that he was working for the FBI, and he saw no conflict, because he didn't know about the bad blood between Hoover and the Snot Nosed Brats ( the Kennedy's)
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Unless you have no imagination at ( as is common with many LNer's ) you'd have to blind not to recognize that Lee was a intell agent.....He was with the State Dep't when he took the mission to the USSR....and I'm not sure who he was working for when he returned to the US....( I suspect that he was working for RFK ) But he thought that he was working for the FBI, and he saw no conflict, because he didn't know about the bad blood between Hoover and the Snot Nosed Brats ( the Kennedy's)
Marguerite had an imagination.
John Pic, Lee’s half-brother, took a particularly cynical view toward his mother's behavior after the assassination. "It is my own opinion that she is out right now to make as much money as she can on her relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald," he told the Warren Commission. "That is the only thing—I don't really believe she really believes he is innocent. I think she is out to make money than if she has to say he is guilty. I think she is a phony in the whole deal."
With several months to reflect after the President's assassination and her husband's death, Marina's views had hardened. "I do not think that she is a very sound thinking woman, and I think that part of the guilt is hers," she told the Warren Commission. "I do not accuse her, but I think that part of the guilt in connection with what happened with Lee lies with her because he did not perhaps receive the education he should have during his childhood, and he did not have any correct leadership on her part—guidance. If she were in contact with my children now—I do not want her to cripple them."
Marina kept to her word—after the days surrounding the assassination, neither June nor Rachel was ever allowed to see their grandmother again...
... There was no expression of remorse, no regret, only an unceasing drive to carry on, fight on, despite the abandonment of her family and friends. Her combative attitude never wavered. “I know some who wouldn’t hesitate to try to make a mental case out of me,” she told interviewer Jean Stafford. “Believe me, if anybody’s in their right mind, it’s Mrs. Margeurite Oswald.”
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/when-lee-harvey-oswald-shot-president-his-mother-tried-take-center-stage-180953351/
Quite frankly, I am thankful that I don’t have an imagination that is anything like Marguerite’s!
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Marguerite had an imagination.
John Pic, Lee’s half-brother, took a particularly cynical view toward his mother's behavior after the assassination. "It is my own opinion that she is out right now to make as much money as she can on her relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald," he told the Warren Commission. "That is the only thing—I don't really believe she really believes he is innocent. I think she is out to make money than if she has to say he is guilty. I think she is a phony in the whole deal."
With several months to reflect after the President's assassination and her husband's death, Marina's views had hardened. "I do not think that she is a very sound thinking woman, and I think that part of the guilt is hers," she told the Warren Commission. "I do not accuse her, but I think that part of the guilt in connection with what happened with Lee lies with her because he did not perhaps receive the education he should have during his childhood, and he did not have any correct leadership on her part—guidance. If she were in contact with my children now—I do not want her to cripple them."
Marina kept to her word—after the days surrounding the assassination, neither June nor Rachel was ever allowed to see their grandmother again...
... There was no expression of remorse, no regret, only an unceasing drive to carry on, fight on, despite the abandonment of her family and friends. Her combative attitude never wavered. “I know some who wouldn’t hesitate to try to make a mental case out of me,” she told interviewer Jean Stafford. “Believe me, if anybody’s in their right mind, it’s Mrs. Margeurite Oswald.”
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/when-lee-harvey-oswald-shot-president-his-mother-tried-take-center-stage-180953351/
Quite frankly, I am thankful that I don’t have an imagination that is anything like Marguerite’s!
Quite frankly, I am thankful that I don’t have an imagination that is anything like Marguerite’s!
Once again we sing in harmony.....There's little NO doubt that Mama Oswald was a mental case......
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Okay, I have read the letter and here are my opinions:
1. You have already brought up the "real name" item. I don't have any further comment about that one.
2. The I and Marina ... are now living in Dallas, TX sentence is possibly something that Gus Russo considers a technical lie (or at least misleading). Since the two were married, Lee's sentence implies that they were living together. They were not, and Marina was technically not living in Dallas but in Irving, TX (yes, I know it is a suburb of Dallas). Personally, I don't consider this to be of much significance and I doubt that Gus Russo does either. But it is typical of LHO's propensity to not tell the truth and I think it is possibly one item that Gus would point out if he were responding to your question.
3. The sentence in which LHO indicates he was secretary of the FPCC in New Orleans is also something that I believe Gus Russo would point to in response to your question. I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that there were any other FPCC members in New Orleans besides LHO. It appears to me that LHO at least exaggerated when he described himself (as secretary) and I believe that most people would probably consider that a lie. Also, I cannot believe that LHO actually knew whether or not the FBI was interested in his FPCC activities or not. So that would also be an item that I believe Gus Russo would point to in response to your question.
4. The sentence regarding the November 1st visit by Hosty to the Paine residence states that Hosty visited us and warned LHO about participating in FPCC activities in Dallas. Hosty didn't even see LHO on that visit because he wasn't there (so the "visited us" is not accurate, he visited Marina and Ruth but not LHO). And neither Ruth Paine or Marina have said anything about Hosty warning anybody about FPCC activities. So there are two items that I believe Gus would point to in response to your question.
5. The sentence regarding Hosty suggesting Marina could defect from the Soviet Union appears to me to be a lie. I haven't seen any evidence that would support this, what I have seen simply indicates that Hosty assured Marina and Ruth that he was only gathering information. I also haven't seen any evidence that would support LHO's claim that he and his wife strongly protested the alleged tactics by the FBI. The mysterious note LHO allegedly left at the FBI's office might have contained a protest. But was this letter written before the alleged note was delivered? And I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that Marina even knew about the alleged note, so how could she have been a part of a strong protest? These are items that I believe Gus would point to in response to your question.
Okay, I have read the letter and here are my opinions:
Charles, could you post a good copy of the letter? ( or a link to it)
And let's start by trying to determine WHO Lee was sending the information to...... It is common knowledge that the letter was addressed to the Russian embassy in Washington DC. But ..... was the information in the letter intended for the eyes of the FBI ?
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Okay, I have read the letter and here are my opinions:
Charles, could you post a good copy of the letter? ( or a link to it)
And let's start by trying to determine WHO Lee was sending the information to...... It is common knowledge that the letter was addressed to the Russian embassy in Washington DC. But ..... was the information in the letter intended for the eyes of the FBI ?
This is a link to the handwritten rough draft that Gus Russo referenced in his comments. Click on the arrow to navigate to the second page of this draft (page 444). The typewritten letter that was actually sent might have a few revisions, I haven't compared them.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=467&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=467&tab=page)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=467&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=467&tab=page)
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This is a link to the handwritten rough draft that Gus Russo referenced in his comments. Click on the arrow to navigate to the second page of this draft (page 444). The typewritten letter that was actually sent might have a few revisions, I haven't compared them.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=467&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=467&tab=page)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=467&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=467&tab=page)
"The FBI is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization, the FPCC of which I was secretary in New Orleans Louisiana, since I no longer live in that state. "
Would the USSR give a grunt if the FBI was ( or was not) interested in Lee's activities in the Fair Play For Cuba Committee ??
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"The FBI is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization, the FPCC of which I was secretary in New Orleans Louisiana, since I no longer live in that state. "
Would the USSR give a grunt if the FBI was ( or was not) interested in Lee's activities in the Fair Play For Cuba Committee ??
Another quote from Russo’s book “Live by the Sword”:
It has been posited that Howard obtained her information about the plots from either Lechuga, at the cocktail party mentioned earlier, or from Castro himself. Either is plausible. Recall that Lechuga was the alleged recipient of the letters of Fernando Fernandez, who had penetrated the exile operations in New Orleans. Fernandez admitted to the FBI that Lechuga ran a pro-Castro terrorist network, adding, “The subversive and espionage activities are directed by the Cuban ambassadors in the United Nations and in Brazil.”17 This assertion seems valid when one takes into account the arrest one year earlier of a pro-Castro terrorist cell operating in New York City. The three arrestees possessed huge quantities of explosives they intended to use against large department stores such as Macy’s, Gimbel’s, and Bloomingdale’s when the stores were clogged with Christmas shoppers. One of the terrorists was an aide to Lechuga, while another traveled to New York with Cuban President Osvaldo Dorticos, a friend of Rolando Cubela (AM/LASH). Even more disturbing, these terrorists belonged to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, of which Lee Oswald claimed to be a member, and with whom he maintained a continuing correspondence.18 Also of note is the fact that Lechuga had an affair with none other than Sylvia Duran, who admitted—to a CIA plant in the Cuban Embassy—to being Lee Oswald’s Mexican lover as well.19
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Another quote from Russo’s book “Live by the Sword”:
It has been posited that Howard obtained her information about the plots from either Lechuga, at the cocktail party mentioned earlier, or from Castro himself. Either is plausible. Recall that Lechuga was the alleged recipient of the letters of Fernando Fernandez, who had penetrated the exile operations in New Orleans. Fernandez admitted to the FBI that Lechuga ran a pro-Castro terrorist network, adding, “The subversive and espionage activities are directed by the Cuban ambassadors in the United Nations and in Brazil.”17 This assertion seems valid when one takes into account the arrest one year earlier of a pro-Castro terrorist cell operating in New York City. The three arrestees possessed huge quantities of explosives they intended to use against large department stores such as Macy’s, Gimbel’s, and Bloomingdale’s when the stores were clogged with Christmas shoppers. One of the terrorists was an aide to Lechuga, while another traveled to New York with Cuban President Osvaldo Dorticos, a friend of Rolando Cubela (AM/LASH). Even more disturbing, these terrorists belonged to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, of which Lee Oswald claimed to be a member, and with whom he maintained a continuing correspondence.18 Also of note is the fact that Lechuga had an affair with none other than Sylvia Duran, who admitted—to a CIA plant in the Cuban Embassy—to being Lee Oswald’s Mexican lover as well.19
Is any of this pertinent to the letter to the Rusian Embassy ??.....
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Is any of this pertinent to the letter to the Rusian Embassy ??.....
Yes, more specifically it is pertinent to your question:
Would the USSR give a grunt if the FBI was ( or was not) interested in Lee's activities in the Fair Play For Cuba Committee ??
The Soviets were heavily invested in Cuba. The Soviets helped train the Cuban intelligence agents. The FPCC was associated with the Cuban intelligence organizations. And that quote appears to tie some Cuban intelligence assets (and terrorists) to LHO. So I do believe that the Soviets would give a grunt about the FBI’s interest in LHO’s activities in that organization.
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Yes, more specifically it is pertinent to your question:
Would the USSR give a grunt if the FBI was ( or was not) interested in Lee's activities in the Fair Play For Cuba Committee ??
The Soviets were heavily invested in Cuba. The Soviets helped train the Cuban intelligence agents. The FPCC was associated with the Cuban intelligence organizations. And that quote appears to tie some Cuban intelligence assets (and terrorists) to LHO. So I do believe that the Soviets would give a grunt about the FBI’s interest in LHO’s activities in that organization.
Yes, more specifically it is pertinent to your question:
I fail to see any connection ....
The Soviets were heavily invested in Cuba. Yes, that's common knowledge and history.....
The Soviets helped train the Cuban intelligence agents. Yes, that's common knowledge and history...
The FPCC was associated with the Cuban intelligence organizations. So you think an intel organization would be openly affiliated with a open public organization like the FPCC ?? Please present verification for your claim.
And that quote appears to tie some Cuban intelligence assets (and terrorists) to LHO. So I do believe that the Soviets would give a grunt about the FBI’s interest in LHO’s activities in that organization.
How is does this quote appear to tie Cuban intel assets to Lee? ......"The FBI is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization, the FPCC of which I was secretary in New Orleans Louisiana, since I no longer live in that state. "
BTW.... I don't recall anybody ever accusing Lee of be affiliated with a "terrorist organization".... I don't believe anybody ever used the term "terrorist" relative to the assassination of JFK. I believe the term "terrorist" is a more recent word used in connection with the activities of lunatics who slaughter innocent people in the name of Allah.
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Okay, I have read the letter and here are my opinions:
Charles, could you post a good copy of the letter? ( or a link to it)
And let's start by trying to determine WHO Lee was sending the information to...... It is common knowledge that the letter was addressed to the Russian embassy in Washington DC. But ..... was the information in the letter intended for the eyes of the FBI ?
let's start by trying to determine WHO Lee was sending the information to......
"Dear Sir, This is to inform you of _?????_ ( one word) and my interviews with comrade Kostine in the Embassy of the Soviet union Mexico City Mexico."
It seems the purpose of the Letter was to inform someone of Lee's meeting with a Soviet agent named Kostine in the Embassy of the USSR in Mexico City.
Then Lee apologizes for failing to obtain a visa to Cuba and travel to Havana. ( "as planned ")
There is not an iota of evidence that Lee had had previous contact with the Soviet Embassy at anytime in the 30 days immediately prior to traveling to Mexico City....but we do know that Lee had been working with Hoover's extra special agent Guy Bannister and FBI agent Warren De Brueys.
"Had I been able to reach Havana as planned the Soviet Embassy would have had time to assist me."
So IMO Lee was explaining his failure to the FBI.....Who had sent him to Mexico City.
Lee Says that he and Marina Nichilaveva are now living in Dallas Texas..... Marina's name before she married Lee Oswald was was Marina Nikolayevna Prusakova.
Lee would have known that, and it's doubtful that he would have referred to her as Marina Nichilaveva .... If anything he would have referred to Her as Marina Prusakova...... So where the hell did this name "Nichilaveva" come from?? WHO is "Nichilaveva" ??? and what was Lee saying???
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Yes, more specifically it is pertinent to your question:
I fail to see any connection ....
The Soviets were heavily invested in Cuba. Yes, that's common knowledge and history.....
The Soviets helped train the Cuban intelligence agents. Yes, that's common knowledge and history...
The FPCC was associated with the Cuban intelligence organizations. So you think an intel organization would be openly affiliated with a open public organization like the FPCC ?? Please present verification for your claim.
And that quote appears to tie some Cuban intelligence assets (and terrorists) to LHO. So I do believe that the Soviets would give a grunt about the FBI’s interest in LHO’s activities in that organization.
How is does this quote appear to tie Cuban intel assets to Lee? ......"The FBI is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization, the FPCC of which I was secretary in New Orleans Louisiana, since I no longer live in that state. "
BTW.... I don't recall anybody ever accusing Lee of be affiliated with a "terrorist organization".... I don't believe anybody ever used the term "terrorist" relative to the assassination of JFK. I believe the term "terrorist" is a more recent word used in connection with the activities of lunatics who slaughter innocent people in the name of Allah.
The FPCC was associated with the Cuban intelligence organizations.[/i] So you think an intel organization would be openly affiliated with a open public organization like the FPCC ?? Please present verification for your claim.[/b]
I didn't say openly affiliated. I said "associated." The verification is in the quote from Russo's book: Even more disturbing, these terrorists belonged to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee...
How is does this quote appear to tie Cuban intel assets to Lee? ......"The FBI is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization, the FPCC of which I was secretary in New Orleans Louisiana, since I no longer live in that state. "
Not the quote from LHO's letter; the quote from Russo's book:
Even more disturbing, these terrorists belonged to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, of which Lee Oswald claimed to be a member, and with whom he maintained a continuing correspondence.
BTW.... I don't recall anybody ever accusing Lee of be affiliated with a "terrorist organization".... I don't believe anybody ever used the term "terrorist" relative to the assassination of JFK. I believe the term "terrorist" is a more recent word used in connection with the activities of lunatics who slaughter innocent people in the name of Allah.
You are the one interjecting the word "affiliated." I used the word "associated." Affiliated means officially attached or connected. Associated means just plain old connected (not necessarily officially).
Regardless of what one might have called them in 1963. They fit the definition of terrorists as is used in today's world.
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The FPCC was associated with the Cuban intelligence organizations.[/i] So you think an intel organization would be openly affiliated with a open public organization like the FPCC ?? Please present verification for your claim.[/b]
I didn't say openly affiliated. I said "associated." The verification is in the quote from Russo's book: Even more disturbing, these terrorists belonged to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee...
How is does this quote appear to tie Cuban intel assets to Lee? ......"The FBI is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization, the FPCC of which I was secretary in New Orleans Louisiana, since I no longer live in that state. "
Not the quote from LHO's letter; the quote from Russo's book:
Even more disturbing, these terrorists belonged to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, of which Lee Oswald claimed to be a member, and with whom he maintained a continuing correspondence.
BTW.... I don't recall anybody ever accusing Lee of be affiliated with a "terrorist organization".... I don't believe anybody ever used the term "terrorist" relative to the assassination of JFK. I believe the term "terrorist" is a more recent word used in connection with the activities of lunatics who slaughter innocent people in the name of Allah.
You are the one interjecting the word "affiliated." I used the word "associated." Affiliated means officially attached or connected. Associated means just plain old connected (not necessarily officially).
Regardless of what one might have called them in 1963. They fit the definition of terrorists as is used in today's world.
You are the one interjecting the word "affiliated." I used the word "associated." Affiliated means officially attached or connected. Associated means just plain old connected (not necessarily officially).
Regardless of what one might have called them in 1963. They fit the definition of terrorists as is used in today's world.
C'mon, Charlie...I thought we were going to have a candid an honest discussion.....
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You are the one interjecting the word "affiliated." I used the word "associated." Affiliated means officially attached or connected. Associated means just plain old connected (not necessarily officially).
Regardless of what one might have called them in 1963. They fit the definition of terrorists as is used in today's world.
C'mon, Charlie...I thought we were going to have a candid an honest discussion.....
?????
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?????
The point is.... Who the hell cares about the fine point definition of "affiliated" and "associated'... IMO that's just a cheap dodge...in an effort to avoid the crux of the question..
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The point is.... Who the hell cares about the fine point definition of "affiliated" and "associated'... IMO that's just a cheap dodge...in an effort to avoid the crux of the question..
I haven't avoided anything. What crux are you talking about?
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I haven't avoided anything. What crux are you talking about?
OK back to square one.... WHO was Lee sending information to??
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So where the hell did this name "Nichilaveva" come from?? WHO is "Nichilaveva" ???
Marina Nikolayevna Prusakova
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Marina Nikolayevna Prusakova
Nikollayevna..... Means that Marina was born out of wedlock.....Marina's father was named Nikolai and her mother's name was Prusakova..... And Marina's name was Marina Prusakova. Nowhere did she ever use the name Marina Nichilaveva.....
I don't believe that Lee was simply misspelling a word that means that Marina was the illegitimate daughter of Nikolai....I believe that Lee had learned the name of a Russian agent named Nichilaveva.....and was passing that info to the FBI....
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Slavic_naming_customs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Slavic_naming_customs)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Slavic_naming_customs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Slavic_naming_customs)
Nikolayevna..... Was Marina's middle name.....I don't know what the hell Nichilaveva means.....
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Nobody ever said that Lee was a good speller.
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Nobody ever said that Lee was a good speller.
John, It's not simply a matter of Misspelling..... Marina's last name name never was anything like Nichilaveva. Her name was Marina Prusokova
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John, It's not simply a matter of Misspelling..... Marina's last name name never was anything like Nichilaveva. Her name was Marina Prusokova
Did her last name change to Oswald when they got married? If so, then maybe LHO thought putting Oswald for her last name would have been redundant. Therefore he simply included her middle name.
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OK back to square one.... WHO was Lee sending information to??
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0029b.htm
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https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0029b.htm
Duh !.... Everybody knows that the letter was addressed to the Russian Embassy. And it's common knowledge that the FBI was reading all of the mail addressed to the Russian Embassy. So it wasn't just the Russians who received information......
When Lee was in Minsk he often sent letters ( sometimes picture post cards) to his mother, that contained photos of places in Russia. Those photos revealed places that were of interest to US intel. Lee knew that his letters would be read by the Russians before they left the USSR and by US intel when they arrived in the US.
So Lee knew how to send seemingly innocuous information in a letter to his mother.
Now then,... let's display a bit of alert intelligence shall we Charlie?
Did Lee inform the reader that " Nichilayevea " was living in Dallas??
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Duh !.... Everybody knows that the letter was addressed to the Russian Embassy. And it's common knowledge that the FBI was reading all of the mail addressed to the Russian Embassy. So it wasn't just the Russians who received information......
When Lee was in Minsk he often sent letters ( sometimes picture post cards) to his mother, that contained photos of places in Russia. Those photos revealed places that were of interest to US intel. Lee knew that his letters would be read by the Russians before they left the USSR and by US intel when they arrived in the US.
So Lee knew how to send seemingly innocuous information in a letter to his mother.
Now then,... let's display a bit of alert intelligence shall we Charlie?
Did Lee inform the reader that " Nichilayevea " was living in Dallas??
When Lee was in Minsk he often sent letters ( sometimes picture post cards) to his mother, that contained photos of places in Russia. Those photos revealed places that were of interest to US intel. Lee knew that his letters would be read by the Russians before they left the USSR and by US intel when they arrived in the US.
So Lee knew how to send seemingly innocuous information in a letter to his mother.
So how did LHO know that the photos would have been allowed to go to “sweet Marguerite” aka mommy dearest; especially if they were of interest to US intelligence?
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When Lee was in Minsk he often sent letters ( sometimes picture post cards) to his mother, that contained photos of places in Russia. Those photos revealed places that were of interest to US intel. Lee knew that his letters would be read by the Russians before they left the USSR and by US intel when they arrived in the US.
So Lee knew how to send seemingly innocuous information in a letter to his mother.
So how did LHO know that the photos would have been allowed to go to “sweet Marguerite” aka mommy dearest; especially if they were of interest to US intelligence?
It was a gamble.... But if the picture on a post card showed a view of Minsk that included the Russian Foreign Language school ....perhaps the US could use that information.... So he'd send the innocuous post card.... If it was useful to US intel.... that was fine, but if they didn't need the info, that was also OK.
But you haven't answered the question;....Did Lee inform the reader that " Nichilayevea " was living in Dallas??
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It was a gamble.... But if the picture on a post card showed a view of Minsk that included the Russian Foreign Language school ....perhaps the US could use that information.... So he'd send the innocuous post card.... If it was useful to US intel.... that was fine, but if they didn't need the info, that was also OK.
But you haven't answered the question;....Did Lee inform the reader that " Nichilayevea " was living in Dallas??
I believe that I found the name LHO was apparently trying to spell, and a reason that he used that name. Here is a link to a letter (translated to English) to Marina from the USSR Embassy in Washington DC dated June 4, 1963 regarding her request for an entrance visa (Notice the name that they used for Marina):
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=532&search=letter_to%20soviet%20embassy (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=532&search=letter_to%20soviet%20embassy)
I appears reasonable to me that LHO would use that same name when writing back to them about her visa...
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I believe that I found the name LHO was apparently trying to spell, and a reason that he used that name. Here is a link to a letter (translated to English) to Marina from the USSR Embassy in Washington DC dated June 4, 1963 regarding her request for an entrance visa (Notice the name that they used for Marina):
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=532&search=letter_to%20soviet%20embassy (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=532&search=letter_to%20soviet%20embassy)
I appears reasonable to me that LHO would use that same name when writing back to them about her visa...
So you think that Nicolaevna is the same as Nichilayevea ?? Do you believe that Collins is the same as Coolims ??
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So you think that Nicolaevna is the same as Nichilayevea ?? Do you believe that Collins is the same as Coolims ??
LHO frequently misspelled words. Some have said that his dyslexia contributed to that. I think that his lack of attendance and lack of paying attention in school did also.
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I believe that I found the name LHO was apparently trying to spell, and a reason that he used that name. Here is a link to a letter (translated to English) to Marina from the USSR Embassy in Washington DC dated June 4, 1963 regarding her request for an entrance visa (Notice the name that they used for Marina):
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=532&search=letter_to%20soviet%20embassy (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=532&search=letter_to%20soviet%20embassy)
I appears reasonable to me that LHO would use that same name when writing back to them about her visa...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=532&search=letter_to%20soviet%20embassy (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=532&search=letter_to%20soviet%20embassy)
Ah....So the soup starts to bubble!.... Good!.... So according to this letter from the Russian Embassy Marina sent a request to the Russians some time prior to April 18, 1963. Verrrrrry Interesting1.... What was going on in The Oswald's life at that time? As I recall this was the time of the Walker incident....So someone from the Oswald household must have sent a letter to he embassy requesting that Marina be allowed to take up residence in Russia. Now WHY would someone want Marina out of the way at that particular time???
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Mr. RANKIN. When did you first consider the possibility of returning to the Soviet Union?
Mrs. OSWALD. I never considered that, but I was forced to because Lee insisted on it.
Mr. RANKIN. When you considered it, as you were forced to, by his insistence, do you know when it was with reference to your first request to the Embassy, which was February 17, 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. February 17?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was a couple of weeks before that, at the beginning of February.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband know about the letter you sent to the Embassy on February 17?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. He handed me the paper, a pencil, and said, "Write."
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what to put in the letter, or was that your own drafting?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I knew myself what I had to write, and these were my words. What could I do if my husband didn't want to live with me? At least that is what I thought.
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Mr. RANKIN. When did you first consider the possibility of returning to the Soviet Union?
Mrs. OSWALD. I never considered that, but I was forced to because Lee insisted on it.
Mr. RANKIN. When you considered it, as you were forced to, by his insistence, do you know when it was with reference to your first request to the Embassy, which was February 17, 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. February 17?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was a couple of weeks before that, at the beginning of February.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband know about the letter you sent to the Embassy on February 17?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course. He handed me the paper, a pencil, and said, "Write."
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what to put in the letter, or was that your own drafting?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I knew myself what I had to write, and these were my words. What could I do if my husband didn't want to live with me? At least that is what I thought.
Thanks John.....February was when Lee and George first started plotting the walker hoax.... Naturally one of the first obstacles was....What to do about Marina? How could they get her out of the way?.... Thus Lee must have told her to go back to Russia.....
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Thanks John.....February was when Lee and George first started plotting the walker hoax.... Naturally one of the first obstacles was....What to do about Marina? How could they get her out of the way?.... Thus Lee must have told her to go back to Russia.....
From “Marina and Lee” by McMillan:
Lee’s increasing inability to control himself both at home and at work suggests that emotionally he was in turmoil. What cannot be known is whether his deterioration was the result of a cumulative process that had been taking place for months, or whether in January he suffered some sort of precipitous “breakdown,” triggered perhaps by Marina’s letter to Anatoly on January 7, her brief pregnancy scare on the 10th with its hint of added responsibility, and her subsequent confession of infidelity...
... but it may also have been an indication that he had conceived another plan—a violent, destructive expression of his political views that would require a cover. Ordering a revolver on January 27 under a false name, and his hints to Marina starting the same day that he was thinking of sending her back to Russia without him, both suggest that he was leaning further toward violence.
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From “Marina and Lee” by McMillan:
Lee’s increasing inability to control himself both at home and at work suggests that emotionally he was in turmoil. What cannot be known is whether his deterioration was the result of a cumulative process that had been taking place for months, or whether in January he suffered some sort of precipitous “breakdown,” triggered perhaps by Marina’s letter to Anatoly on January 7, her brief pregnancy scare on the 10th with its hint of added responsibility, and her subsequent confession of infidelity...
... but it may also have been an indication that he had conceived another plan—a violent, destructive expression of his political views that would require a cover. Ordering a revolver on January 27 under a false name, and his hints to Marina starting the same day that he was thinking of sending her back to Russia without him, both suggest that he was leaning further toward violence.
Thank you....But we simply don't know what George and Lee were plotting at that point. Perhaps they originally plotted to actually shoot General Walker, but realized that they were skating on thin ice with that plot....after all if they were caught, a murder conviction might just put them in the electric chair.
Can we stay focused on the letter to the Russian Embassy?
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Ordering a revolver on January 27 under a false name, and his hints to Marina starting the same day that he was thinking of sending her back to Russia without him, both suggest that he was leaning further toward violence.
I think what this suggests is that McMillan overestimates her mindreading abilities.
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I think what this suggests is that McMillan overestimates her mindreading abilities.
Ha!
She and Posner both have amazing intuition. He deciphered ""the smirk", an obvious sign of guilt.
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Ha!
She and Posner both have amazing intuition. He deciphered ""the smirk", an obvious sign of guilt.
More obvious signs of guilt courtesy of Bugliosi:
- Leaving his wedding ring behind at the Paine house
- Not reading the newspaper in the domino room that morning
- Going to the second floor to get a Coke when he preferred Dr. Pepper
- Not being chatty with the cab driver
- Showing reporters his handcuffed hands
- Marina thinking his eyes looked guilty
- Leaving his blue jacket in the domino room
- Leaving a clipboard on the sixth floor
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More obvious signs of guilt courtesy of Bugliosi:
- Leaving his wedding ring behind at the Paine house
- Not reading the newspaper in the domino room that morning
- Going to the second floor to get a Coke when he preferred Dr. Pepper
- Not being chatty with the cab driver
- Showing reporters his handcuffed hands
- Marina thinking his eyes looked guilty
- Leaving his blue jacket in the domino room
- Leaving a clipboard on the sixth floor
: )
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Thank you....But we simply don't know what George and Lee were plotting at that point. Perhaps they originally plotted to actually shoot General Walker, but realized that they were skating on thin ice with that plot....after all if they were caught, a murder conviction might just put them in the electric chair.
Can we stay focused on the letter to the Russian Embassy?
They could skate? Are you sure that was their cup of tea?
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Ha!
She and Posner both have amazing intuition. He deciphered ""the smirk", an obvious sign of guilt.
That's right!!.... Just visit any penitentiary and observe all the smirking inmates....
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That's right!!.... Just visit any penitentiary and observe all the smirking inmates....
https://www.google.com/search?q=smirking+suspects&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwit97aO-pfoAhUJWlMKHRZgA7YQ2-cCegQIABAC&oq=smirking+suspects&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-img.3...154038.163549..165201...0.0..0.72.922.15......0....1.........35i39j0i8i30j0j0i24j33i299j33i10.pIntnA0OekU&ei=9b9rXu2oFom0zQKWwI2wCw&prmd=insv&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS739US740&hl=en-US#imgrc=u0KSf9ieZkqW6M
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smirk: a smile that expresses satisfaction or pleasure about having done something or knowing something that is not known by someone else
I plagiarized the above from a dictionary. I refuse to tell you which one. I demand legal representation and will only accept my uncle Vinnie.
I am not resisting arrest!
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Bill Chapman: posting useless remarks since 2018.
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Somebody is stalking me.
Edit: A nobody is stalking me.
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smirk: a smile that expresses satisfaction or pleasure about having done something or knowing something that is not known by someone else
I plagiarized the above from a dictionary. I refuse to tell you which one. I demand legal representation and will only accept my uncle Vinnie.
I am not resisting arrest!
smirk: a smile that expresses satisfaction or pleasure about having done something or knowing something that is not known by someone else
We should not be surprised that you can't even understand the meaning of a simple word like "smirk"... When you routinely stand the facts of the murder of JFK on their head.
Smirk....An affected or artificial smile.....
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smirk: a smile that expresses satisfaction or pleasure about having done something or knowing something that is not known by someone else
We should not be surprised that you can't even understand the meaning of a simple word like "smirk"... When you routinely stand the facts of the murder of JFK on their head.
Smirk....An affected or artificial smile.....
If you want to see a beautiful smirk have a look at Fauci's face after a comment by der Feuhrer.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZBqd0QLv/smirk.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZBqd0QLv)
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If you want to see a beautiful smirk have a look at Fauci's face after a comment by der Feuhrer.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZBqd0QLv/smirk.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZBqd0QLv)
Hi Ray..... Where ya been?..... I was beginning to think that you'd imbibed too heavily in the COVID 19 inhibitor....
Corona, drink enough of it ( about a case) and you'll relax and cease worrying about whether you've washed your hands properly.....
If you want to see a beautiful smirk have a look at Fauci's face after a comment by der Feuhrer.
Sorry Ray.... I think Fauci was merely stifling a sneeze.......
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Hi Ray..... Where ya been?..... I was beginning to think that you'd imbibed too heavily in the COVID 19 inhibitor....
Corona, drink enough of it ( about a case) and you'll relax and cease worrying about whether you've washed your hands properly.....
If you want to see a beautiful smirk have a look at Fauci's face after a comment by der Feuhrer.
Sorry Ray.... I think Fauci was merely stifling a sneeze.......
You obviously missed his face palm to stop himself laughing at what der Feuhrer had just said.
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You obviously missed his face palm to stop himself laughing at what der Feuhrer had just said.
Perhaps you should find new moniker when you're referring to President Donald Trump...... Because "der Feuher " was a democrat.....
You are also a Democrat, aren't you. Ray?
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Perhaps you should find new moniker when you're referring to President Donald Trump...... Because "der Feuher " was a democrat.....
Time to resurrect Walt's Fabrications.
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Perhaps you should find new moniker when you're referring to President Donald Trump...... Because "der Feuher " was a democrat.....
Why do you continue to make yourself look foolish, Walt?
The full name of Adolf Hitler’s Nazi Party, the political movement that brought him to power and supplied the infrastructure of the fascist dictatorship over which he would preside, was Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. According to historians, the complicated moniker reveals more about the image the party wanted to project and the constituency it aimed to build than it did about the Nazis’ true political goals, which were building a state based on racial superiority and brute-force governance.
Sounds more like the Republicans.
"Given that Nazism is traditionally held to be an extreme right-wing ideology, the party’s conspicuous use of the term “socialist” — which refers to a political system normally plotted on the far-left end of the ideological spectrum — has long been a source of confusion, not to mention heated debate among partisans seeking to distance themselves from the genocidal taint of Nazi Germany."
You are also a Democrat, aren't you. Ray?
Nope.