JFK Assassination Forum

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Margaret Kelly on February 09, 2020, 10:22:27 PM

Title: Did Castro coerce Duran and Azcue into the fake LHO story?
Post by: Margaret Kelly on February 09, 2020, 10:22:27 PM
In her earlier testimony, Duran identified LHO as the man who called to the cuban consulate in Sept 1963. By the late 70's however, both she and Azcue were saying the person was not Oswald.

Here's one possible scenario for this discrepancy:

When the new HSCA investigation was announced in the late 1970s, did Castro interpret this new investigation as a "CIA front" to blame Castro for the JFK assassination and thus justify a new invasion of Cuba? So in order to block the CIAs effort, Castro coerced Duran and Azcue into making the false claim that it was not Oswald inside the cuban consulate at all. If it was not Oswald, then the HSCA investigation could not blame Castro/Cuba for the JFK assassination because Oswald was not even inside their consulate in late Sept 1963 - thus no relationship between Oswald and Cuba. Castro would know that the CIA had no photo evidence that Oswald was inside the cuban consulate (they had already said their surveillance cameras were not working) and so Castro knew the CIA could not contradict Duran and Azcues claim that it was not Oswald they had met inside the Cuban consulate.

Castro then gave the HSCA investigation two photos of unknown males of who they thought might be the imposter Oswald in order to throw off the investigation.

This would explain why Oswalds photo does indeed show up on the application form.
Title: Re: Did Castro coerce Duran and Azcue into the fake LHO story?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on February 09, 2020, 11:27:20 PM
In her earlier testimony, Duran identified LHO as the man who called to the cuban consulate in Sept 1963. By the late 70's however, both she and Azcue were saying the person was not Oswald.

Here's one possible scenario for this discrepancy:

When the new HSCA investigation was announced in the late 1970s, did Castro interpret this new investigation as a "CIA front" to blame Castro for the JFK assassination and thus justify a new invasion of Cuba? So in order to block the CIAs effort, Castro coerced Duran and Azcue into making the false claim that it was not Oswald inside the cuban consulate at all. If it was not Oswald, then the HSCA investigation could not blame Castro/Cuba for the JFK assassination because Oswald was not even inside their consulate in late Sept 1963 - thus no relationship between Oswald and Cuba. Castro would know that the CIA had no photo evidence that Oswald was inside the cuban consulate (they had already said their surveillance cameras were not working) and so Castro knew the CIA could not contradict Duran and Azcues claim that it was not Oswald they had met inside the Cuban consulate.

Castro then gave the HSCA investigation two photos of unknown males of who they thought might be the imposter Oswald in order to throw off the investigation.

This would explain why Oswalds photo does indeed show up on the application form.
Questions, please: Where/when did Duran say the man wasn't Oswald? In every interview I've read she's stated that it was Oswald. Yes, she described the man differently than the real Oswald. But she said in 1978 in testimony to the HSCA that it was the Oswald arrested for the murder of JFK.

She also appeared in 1993 on the PBS Frontline show "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald" saying it was indeed Oswald, the man arrested for the murder of JFK. Alfredo Mirabal, who was also at the consulate during the event said it was Oswald.

And when did Castro give the HSCA two photographs of someone? I've never heard that.




Title: Re: Did Castro coerce Duran and Azcue into the fake LHO story?
Post by: Margaret Kelly on February 09, 2020, 11:31:41 PM
Questions, please: Where/when did Duran say the man wasn't Oswald?

I thought she told Antony Summers it was not Oswald. Maybe i took this up wrong?
Title: Re: Did Castro coerce Duran and Azcue into the fake LHO story?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on February 09, 2020, 11:43:10 PM
I thought she told Antony Summers it was not Oswald. Maybe i took this up wrong?
I have this account from the Summer's book "Not in Your Lifetime".

(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/fb98/zx9pg3inrv4vwhuzg.jpg)

As we all know reading about this event, eyewitness accounts are unreliable. Some are good, some are bad, some are a mix. It depends on the person and what they say. So we have to consider corroborating evidence (if any) when we use a eyewitness.

I think the corroborating evidence for these eyewitness accounts is very strong. It was, in my view, Lee Oswald, who went to the Cuban consulate and Soviet Embassy in Mexico City.

Title: Re: Did Castro coerce Duran and Azcue into the fake LHO story?
Post by: Margaret Kelly on February 10, 2020, 12:12:36 AM
And when did Castro give the HSCA two photographs of someone? I've never heard that.

Its at 2:20 on this video:
Title: Re: Did Castro coerce Duran and Azcue into the fake LHO story?
Post by: Thomas Graves on February 10, 2020, 12:31:12 AM
In her earlier testimony, Duran identified LHO as the man who called to the cuban consulate in Sept 1963. By the late 70's however, both she and Azcue were saying the person was not Oswald.

Here's one possible scenario for this discrepancy:

When the new HSCA investigation was announced in the late 1970s, did Castro interpret this new investigation as a "CIA front" to blame Castro for the JFK assassination and thus justify a new invasion of Cuba? So in order to block the CIAs effort, Castro coerced Duran and Azcue into making the false claim that it was not Oswald inside the cuban consulate at all. If it was not Oswald, then the HSCA investigation could not blame Castro/Cuba for the JFK assassination because Oswald was not even inside their consulate in late Sept 1963 - thus no relationship between Oswald and Cuba. Castro would know that the CIA had no photo evidence that Oswald was inside the cuban consulate (they had already said their surveillance cameras were not working) and so Castro knew the CIA could not contradict Duran and Azcues claim that it was not Oswald they had met inside the Cuban consulate.

Castro then gave the HSCA investigation two photos of unknown males of who they thought might be the imposter Oswald in order to throw off the investigation.

This would explain why Oswalds photo does indeed show up on the application form.

Margaret,

Going from memory here, but didn't Duran tell the Mexican Police right after the assassination that the "Oswald" she'd dealt with was short, blond haired, and blue-eyed?

Nikolai Leonov was 5' 7".  Oswald was 5' 9.5".

Nikolai Leonov was blond-haired.  Oswald's hair color was light-brown.

Nikolai Leonov was blue-eyed.  Oswald's eyes were "hazel" or "grey"

--  MWT   ;)



Title: Re: Did Castro coerce Duran and Azcue into the fake LHO story?
Post by: Margaret Kelly on February 10, 2020, 01:48:34 AM
Nikolai Leonov

This guys story is carried at this link: https://jfkfacts.org/senior-kgb-insider-said-lee-harvey-oswald/#more-21387

His story carries no credibility as far as i can see. He says LHO was talking about shooting up the hotel??
Title: Re: Did Castro coerce Duran and Azcue into the fake LHO story?
Post by: Thomas Graves on February 10, 2020, 02:25:28 AM
This guys story is carried at this link: https://jfkfacts.org/senior-kgb-insider-said-lee-harvey-oswald/#more-21387

His story carries no credibility as far as i can see. He says LHO was talking about shooting up the hotel??

Exactly.

It's as though Leonov (at the Soviet embassy on Sunday, September 29) and Nechiporenko, Yatskov and Kostikov  (at the Soviet consulate on Friday and Saturday, September 27 and 28) were not on "the same page" regarding their lies about the "Oswald" with whom none of them probably ever met ... or ... maybe, just maybe ... Russian intelligence decided to confuse us some more, and gave us even more "material" for our never-ending tinfoil hat JFK assassination theories.

To see what I've posted about Nikolai Leonov ("The Blond Oswald In Mexico City") and his KGB colleagues, here at this fine forum as well as at the so-called Education Forum, google (simultaneously) leonov byetkov obyedkov .

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Did Castro coerce Duran and Azcue into the fake LHO story?
Post by: Margaret Kelly on February 10, 2020, 02:55:39 PM
It's as though Leonov (at the Soviet embassy on Sunday, September 29) and Nechiporenko, Yatskov and Kostikov  (at the Soviet consulate on Friday and Saturday, September 27 and 28) were not on "the same page" regarding their lies about the "Oswald" with whom none of them probably ever met

I think Nechiporenko comes across as honest enough. I don't think they were involved in anything to do with the assassination and so had nothing to hide.
Title: Re: Did Castro coerce Duran and Azcue into the fake LHO story?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on February 10, 2020, 04:40:56 PM
Its at 2:20 on this video:
Thanks. That Black Op piece (and frankly, Black Op is not a very credible source in my opinion) makes no sense to me.

Those two photos that the Cubans allegedly gave the HSCA (? or who?) are clearly of two different men. And who said either man said they were Oswald? The Cubans said both men said they were Oswald? And who took them? Did the Cubans have photo surveillance of their own consulate?

Two different individuals went to the Cuban consulate and said they were Oswald? And of course neither looks like Oswald in any way.

Those questions aren't for you; they're directed at the claims made in that piece you linked to.

If Castro was worried about being blamed for the assassination through Oswald's visit then why did his government release the application forms for the transit visa? It shows a photo of Oswald and handwriting experts say the signature belonged to Oswald. And, again, Duran and Mirabal both testified that the man was Oswald. Wouldn't Castro tell them too to deny it was Oswald? The Soviet officials - all KGB agents - said the man they met was Oswald. So did the real Oswald go to the Soviets but an impostor went to the Cuban consulate? Frankly, this sounds like some chicanery on the part of Cuban intelligence.

Again: this makes absolutely no sense to me as some sort of operation by Castro to prevent his government from being connected to the assassination. But, admittedly, just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean it's not true.
Title: Re: Did Castro coerce Duran and Azcue into the fake LHO story?
Post by: Thomas Graves on February 10, 2020, 06:49:46 PM
I think Nechiporenko comes across as honest enough. I don't think they were involved in anything to do with the assassination and so had nothing to hide.

Margaret,

That's because you probably believe the Kremlin considered the Cold War over in 1991.

LOL

Ever heard of "active measures counterintelligence operations"?

Ever heard of "strategic deception counterintelligence operations"?

https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames/page/n3/mode/2up

Ever heard of Anna Chapman and her eleven "illegals" colleagues?

Etc, ad nauseam ...

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Did Castro coerce Duran and Azcue into the fake LHO story?
Post by: Tom Scully on February 10, 2020, 07:50:38 PM
Margaret,

That's because you probably believe the Kremlin considered the Cold War over in 1991.

LOL

Ever heard of "active measures counterintelligence operations"?

Ever heard of "strategic deception counterintelligence operations"?

https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames/page/n3/mode/2up

Ever heard of Anna Chapman and her eleven "illegals" colleagues?

Etc, ad nauseam ...

--  MWT  ;)

Tommy, am I seeing a "consistency" in the tenor of Margaret's threads and posts?

I've tried to talk myself out of pushing back against Margaret's conclusions about Marina and Priscilla because I assume I cannot fully understand a woman's consideration of another woman's predicament, but (fortunately or unfortunately ?) the facts determine my responses.

The book "Marina And Lee" though more or less matches her testimony. It also matches Norman Mailers interviews of her for his book "Oswalds Tale" in the 1990's. I don't think Marina had anything of value to hide if the assassination was a government organized assassination. Lee never seemed to keep Marina in on his activities.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/O%20Disk/Oswald%20Marina/Pressure%20on/Item%2006.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/MarinaFredHarveyINSfbiHeitman.jpg)

Marina. according to the WC and FBI, certainly did not keep her side of "the bargain" offered to her by Fred Harvey, described in Heitman's FBI report.

Quote
http://oswaldinthedoorway.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-following-paper-by-oic-senior.html
.....
Reading through her testimony with the Warren Commission in
Washington on February 3, 1964 the following strange dialogue took
place:
Quote
Mr. Rankin: “Do you recall the date that you arrived in the United States
with your husband, Lee Harvey Oswald?”
Mrs. OSWALD: “On the 13th of June, 1962. I am not quite certain as to
the year - '61 or '62, I think '62.”
Mr. RANKIN: “How did you come to this country?”
Mrs. OSWALD: “From Moscow via Poland, Germany, and Holland we
came to Amsterdam by train. And from Amsterdam to New York by ship,
and New York to Dallas by air.”
Mr. RANKIN: “Do you recall the name of the ship on which you came?”
Mrs. OSWALD: “I think it was the SS Rotterdam but I am not sure.”
Mr. RANKIN: “What time of the day did you arrive in New York?”
Mrs. OSWALD: “It was---about noon or 1 p.m., thereabouts. It is hard to
remember the exact time.”
Mr. RANKIN: “How long did you stay in New York at that time?”
Mrs. OSWALD: “We stayed that evening and the next 24 hours in a hotel
in New York, and then we left the following day by air.”
Mr. RANKIN: “Do you recall the name of the hotel where you stayed?”
Mrs. OSWALD: “I don't know the name of the hotel but it is in the Times
Square area, not far from the publishing offices of the New York Times.”
First, she did not know what year she arrived in the U.S. Secondly, she
did not think of noticing the difference between East- and West Germany,
which was major. Then she, for some strange reason, thought that she
and Lee came to Amsterdam instead of Rotterdam. That is like saying
we arrived at the harbor in New York when we really had arrived in
Boston. The Oswald couple had to pass through four borders that
required clearing customs; still Marina did not mention it. Finally, she did
not remember passing through Europe or how long she stayed at the first
stop in Holland, but for some weird reason she remembers the
publishing offices of the New York Times!
We are sorry, but it sure seems as if she tried to remember a manuscript,
and she was really bad at it.


Quote
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/O%20Disk/Oswald%20Marina/File/Item%2059.pdf
Page 2

...Rankin asks for the surveillance after "Marina had asked to be reliRred of this by the
Secret 3-,rvice and Warren had agreed. But then Rankin had worried the Commission with his
belief that without the Secret Service on her tail (vice "artin) She'd skip to Mexico.!

On later pages the marks indicating withholding under exemptions like privacy; are:
visible. "ere the FBI people did not consider obliterating that Marina was having an
",ffair" with-Martin.
Here and on following pages Hoover does not believe the Marina fairy tale that
Oswald said he/ planned to shoot Nixon that day, a day Nixon as not in Dallas.
Hoover
also does not bUieve that she'locked him in the bathroom. Hover gives his reasons:1)kt
they do not include an explanations of the locking of a bathroom door from the wrong side.
Inferences the story was made up for 44643. "..t is stile being retailed.
...

(http://jfkforum.com/images/MarinaWebsterOswaldKatFord.jpg)
Title: Re: Did Castro coerce Duran and Azcue into the fake LHO story?
Post by: Thomas Graves on February 10, 2020, 10:15:06 PM
Tommy, am I seeing a "consistency" in the tenor of Margaret's threads and posts?

I've tried to talk myself out of pushing back against Margaret's conclusions about Marina and Priscilla because I assume I cannot fully understand a woman's consideration of another woman's predicament, but (fortunately or unfortunately ?) the facts determine my responses.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/O%20Disk/Oswald%20Marina/Pressure%20on/Item%2006.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/MarinaFredHarveyINSfbiHeitman.jpg)

Marina. according to the WC and FBI, certainly did not keep her side of "the bargain" offered to her by Fred Harvey, described in Heitman's FBI report.
First, she did not know what year she arrived in the U.S. Secondly, she
did not think of noticing the difference between East- and West Germany,
which was major. Then she, for some strange reason, thought that she
and Lee came to Amsterdam instead of Rotterdam. That is like saying
we arrived at the harbor in New York when we really had arrived in
Boston. The Oswald couple had to pass through four borders that
required clearing customs; still Marina did not mention it. Finally, she did
not remember passing through Europe or how long she stayed at the first
stop in Holland, but for some weird reason she remembers the
publishing offices of the New York Times!
We are sorry, but it sure seems as if she tried to remember a manuscript,
and she was really bad at it.



(http://jfkforum.com/images/MarinaWebsterOswaldKatFord.jpg)

Tom ... Tom ... Tom,

You working class hero, you.

If Marina lied, if Marina helped to cover up a conspiracy to assassinate JFK, the question remains: was it a conspiracy by the evil, evil, evil CIA, or by the humanitarian organizations known as the KGB and the DGI?

(sarcasm)

What bothers me about Margaret and Steve M. and oh-so many others, is that they are apparently ignorant about, for example, the twelve-member Anna Chapman Spy Ring that was finally rolled up in 2010, they apparently don't realize that KGB-boy Vladimir Putin installed Donald Trump as our president in January 2017, etc, etc, etc, and they apparently think we should believe the likes of KGB officers Nechiporenko, Yatskov, Kostikov and Leonov ... because ... because ... well ... THE COLD WAR IS OVER, GOSH DARN IT!

--  MWT  ;)

PS  Have you even read this, yet?
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362

Nope? To complicated?  Too many Russian names?  Too Angleton and Bagley and Golitsyn ... gasp ... exonerating? 

Too Nosenko incriminating?

You prefer Tom Mangold, David Wise and Jefferson Morley, instead, brainwashed though they are?