JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Paul May on January 25, 2020, 03:05:11 AM

Title: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Paul May on January 25, 2020, 03:05:11 AM
By Jeff Meek
January 14, 2020

Former Dallas police officer W.E. “Rusty” Robbins had a ringside seat for aspects of the Nov. 22, 1963 assassination of President Kennedy, which he shared with me during a Dec. 4 interview at his Texas home.

Robbins was born and raised in the Dallas area. In 1953, the U.S. was at war with Korea and Robbins was looking for a way around the draft, so he joined the Air National Guard/Air Police unit. During that time he got to know several Dallas Police Department officers.

“That’s when I decided I wanted to become a police officer,” Robbins said. So on Dec. 26, 1956, be began what became a distinguished 30 years with the department.

Interestingly, before his official training began, he was told the rookie class had already started, how about doing some undercover work? He did, with no badge, no training, no gun, no partner, nothing until he was able to borrow a badge from another officer so he would have something to show when making an arrest.

In rookie school he learned a lot about law, city ordinances, how to take down an offender and self-defense. He worked the north Dallas area with a training partner in the Royal Lane area with cotton fields all around. Eventually he officially became a patrolman in 1957.

“Every day was different than the day before. I think that holds true even today,” said Robbins.

Jumping ahead to November 1963, when he and other officers attended a briefing on President Kennedy’s trip, he was assigned to crowd control for the 1800 block of Main Street which was the street that led into Dealey Plaza where the assassination took place.

As the motorcade approached, Robbins kept his eye on the crowd, but admitted he did glance at the President as his limo passed by. “I saw everything. I was right there on the curb,” said Robbins.

After the motorcade passed, the crowd quickly dispersed and Robbins went back to headquarters. He was changing into his civilian clothes when someone said Kennedy had been shot. He thought it was a joke, but within another minute or 2 he knew it wasn’t.
He put his uniform back on and was told to go to the nearby Sheraton Hotel, to a particular room where the White House Communications team was set up, and assist them as needed. Obtaining a patrol car, Robbins went to the room and a man (to this day he does not know his name) said he needed to get to Love Field to board Air Force One. Minutes later the man came out with communications equipment and off they went with lights and siren. As they entered the airport grounds they could see that the President’s jet was taxiing for takeoff. They were too late. The man told Robbins to drop him at the airport’s front door and he’d catch a commercial flight. Back at headquarters Robbins again changed into his civilian clothes. His Nov. 22 duties were over.

Robbins backtracked a bit to say while at headquarters he also learned that Officer J.D. Tippit had been shot. He knew Tippit and said he was a really good guy.

Two days later, on Nov. 24, nightclub owner Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald in the Dallas P.D. basement. Robbins was at home getting ready to report in. He stopped to watch the transfer of Oswald and saw the shooting. “I told my wife, that’s Jack Ruby,” Robbins said. He knew Ruby from working the area of downtown Dallas where Ruby’s Carousel Club was located. “I had talked to Jack many, many times as well as other bar operators,” he told me. Asked if he ever saw other D.P.D. persons in the club, Robbins said, “never.”

On one occasion Robbins was in the club’s kitchen fixing a pizza and was offered non-alcoholic champagne by Ruby. “So we had a little drink back in the kitchen.”

Back to the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald: he reported in and was told to get a car and go to Parkland Hospital’s morgue. His assignment was to guard the door that led to the room where Oswald’s body was to be autopsied. “I was told not to let anybody through that door. I don’t care if it’s a doctor or the FBI, don’t let them through.”

In online photographs you can see Robbins and another P.D. officer with their shotguns, guarding the area. In one photo you can see a gurney. Under that white sheet lay Oswald’s body. A few photographers asked Robbins if he would let them in the autopsy room for a quick photo. Of course the answer was no.

About 2 hours later he was told to get a car and be ready to be part of an escort of Oswald’s body over to Fort Worth. He did so and explained that about halfway, Fort Worth P.D. took over the escort and D.P.D. came back to Dallas.

Later, Robbins told me he was asked if he wanted to see Oswald’s body, which he did briefly. “The sheet (covering Oswald) was pulled all the way down to his waist,” Robbins remembers. Thus ended a wild weekend for Robbins who said of the aftermath of the killings that police just went about their business.

At this point I asked him again about Jack Ruby. He then told me of a time when the 2 of them went bowling. “This is a very important point I’d like to make,” he said. After making a stop at Ruby’s apartment, they went to the bowling alley where Robbins worked part time as security for the parking lot. He described a frame in which Ruby bowled a strike. “He was so thrilled, he had finally done something,” Robbins explained. Further. he said Ruby went to the lanes to the right and left telling other bowlers what he’d done. “Nobody cared except Jack.

He was wanting recognition for bowling that strike. Later when he had the opportunity to shoot Oswald it was like bowling that strike. It was a chance to be somebody. I do not believe that there is any other reason why Jack Ruby shot him.” Robbins doesn’t believe the Mafia or anyone else told Ruby to kill Oswald. “This was just his chance to be somebody.“
What about Oswald? Was he a lone assassin? Robbins said he doesn’t know, but prefers to think Oswald did it alone.

Asked if he thought Ruby had mob connections, Robbins said Ruby worked in the area where the mob was present and invited them to his club. “But beyond that I really doubt it. He added, “Jack was a failure. Jack had several different (business) places that served beer and every one of them had gone under. There were 3 places like that downtown and his was the poorest of the 3, had the least number of customers. He was a failure.”

After 30 years with the Dallas police force Robbins worked a few other jobs including with the Department of Transportation as a parking enforcement officer and also with the Texas Lottery Commission.


 
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Paul May on January 27, 2020, 02:41:44 AM
This is semi interesting. This story is about a Dallas cop who knew Jack Ruby; who socialized with Jack Ruby. A cop who knew what a failure in life Ruby was. And knowing that, gave his belief on why Ruby shot Oswald. Yet due to conspiratorial bias, not one CT has commented. Not one. This demonstrates, it nothing else, how most CT’s don’t want the truth. They are so paranoid as if the truth of the event would shatter their entire belief system. Scary.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 27, 2020, 02:53:41 AM
This is semi interesting. This story is about a Dallas cop who knew Jack Ruby; who socialized with Jack Ruby. A cop who knew what a failure in life Ruby was. And knowing that, gave his belief on why Ruby shot Oswald. Yet due to conspiratorial bias, not one CT has commented. Not one. This demonstrates, it nothing else, how most CT’s don’t want the truth. They are so paranoid as if the truth of the event would shatter their entire belief system. Scary.

Paul

I kinda like the idea that Ruby was connected to Castro agent Santo Trafficante, and was ordered to hit Oswald.

Does that qualify?

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Paul May on January 27, 2020, 03:38:34 AM
Paul

I kinda like the idea that Ruby was connected to Castro agent Santo Trafficante, and was ordered to hit Oswald.

Does that qualify?

--  MWT  ;)
doesn’t qualify to me. Ruby was a bit player who in all likely hood was not on Trafficante’s radar.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 27, 2020, 03:47:57 AM
doesn’t qualify to me. Ruby was a bit player who in all likely hood was not on Trafficante’s radar.

LOL

I would think that mobbed-up potential hitmen with local police connections don't have to have a particularly high status in the underworld to be called upon to do a job ... "or else".

You do realize, don't  you, that under my scenario, he would have been doing it for Castro, who in turn, could have been doing it for Khrushchev.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jack Trojan on January 27, 2020, 05:08:37 AM
Ruby stalked Oswald as per instructions. He was in compliance with the DPD, who were obvious conspirators in the Big Event.

Why else would Ruby have done it?

Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on January 27, 2020, 11:36:53 AM
Ruby stalked Oswald as per instructions. He was in compliance with the DPD, who were obvious conspirators in the Big Event.

Why else would Ruby have done it?

Because he was a delusional hothead. Remember, he shot Oswald in the stomach.

"They" take out the assassin with a bullet to the stomach, giving them a 90% chance of survival (up to 98% if you can get quickly to a hospital as is the case here) and guaranteeing Oswald would spill the beans after likely surviving the attempt on his life.

Heres a study of 300 patients with abdominal gunshot wounds.

"The overall survival rate for the series was 88.3%; however, if only the 226 patients without vascular injuries are considered, the survival rate was 97.3%."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1493651/

Ruby got either very lucky or very unlucky depending on how you see it. The chances of him killing Oswald with that shot were tiny. If Jim Leavelle hadn't have pulled Oswald sideways slightly the bullet wouldn't have hit those organs and he could have easily survived. It was a total fluke that he died.

Not a mob hit.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 27, 2020, 03:24:45 PM
Ruby got either very lucky or very unlucky depending on how you see it. The chances of him killing Oswald with that shot were tiny. If Jim Leavelle hadn't have pulled Oswald sideways slightly the bullet wouldn't have hit those organs and he could have easily survived. It was a total fluke that he died.

Nobody ever said he was a particular competent hit man. Just that he had access.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on January 27, 2020, 05:04:29 PM
Nobody ever said he was a particular competent hit man. Just that he had access.

So would've lots of people. Almost anyone could've got access to the police station with little effort that weekend.

Do people really believe that after all this effort - planting Oswald in New Orleans, in Dallas, faking photos, firing at Walker, altering forensics, altering photos or whatever way you think the conspiracy was set up - that they were going to leave the final and most important act of silencing Oswald to an incompetent hitman in some clumsy run and gun attempt?

48 hours after he was captured?

How did "they" know he hadn't sang already?

Why didn't they kill him "escaping" from the TSBD. Or better still, wait until he got to prison and kill him there with ease?

It makes no sense. On the one hand people believe we have this super competent team of co-conspirators who have had this laid out from as far back as '61, whos plan has gone flawlessly up to this point, yet they let a low level hood assassinate the assassin with a .38 shot to the guts?

The first and only hit of it kind. A 90% survival rate. Mobsters and black op crews don't shoot people in the stomach. Its a very silly theory.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Tonkovich on January 27, 2020, 07:38:20 PM
You might take a look at the Olsen thread.

Ruby was at the DPD twice on Friday night. Armed.

First time about 6pm.

That's about 3, maybe 4 hours after the arrest.
Before - I think, correct me if I'm wrong - the press conference, arraignment, etc.

That's pretty fast for someone to decide they're going to kill someone, on a suicide mission, i.e. no chance of escape.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 27, 2020, 09:12:41 PM
It makes no sense. On the one hand people believe we have this super competent team of co-conspirators who have had this laid out from as far back as '61, whos plan has gone flawlessly up to this point, yet they let a low level hood assassinate the assassin with a .38 shot to the guts?

I guess you’ll have to ask somebody who believes that we have this super competent team of co-conspirators who have had this laid out from as far back as '61, whose plan has gone flawlessly up to this point.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jack Trojan on January 27, 2020, 10:24:50 PM
Because he was a delusional hothead. Remember, he shot Oswald in the stomach.

"They" take out the assassin with a bullet to the stomach, giving them a 90% chance of survival (up to 98% if you can get quickly to a hospital as is the case here) and guaranteeing Oswald would spill the beans after likely surviving the attempt on his life.

Heres a study of 300 patients with abdominal gunshot wounds.

"The overall survival rate for the series was 88.3%; however, if only the 226 patients without vascular injuries are considered, the survival rate was 97.3%."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1493651/

Ruby got either very lucky or very unlucky depending on how you see it. The chances of him killing Oswald with that shot were tiny. If Jim Leavelle hadn't have pulled Oswald sideways slightly the bullet wouldn't have hit those organs and he could have easily survived. It was a total fluke that he died.

Not a mob hit.

Do you recall that Johnson phoned the hospital and told the physicians attending Oswald to get a confession out of him? Oswald only had to remain alive long enough so 1 of the planted physicians could claim he confessed. Unfortunately, he died before they could kill him, after his fake confession. That's why Ruby shot him in the gut, as per instructions. We can only speculate why Ruby was willing to go along with it but it certainly wasn't because he was a hot head who avenged JFK. Give me a break.

Ruby might also have been Plan B after the DPD failed to kill Oswald at the theater. But I doubt this because I think the DPD's job was to apprehend Oswald so an outsider could shoot him in the gut so he could live long enough that they could claim he confessed. Outright killing him was Ruby's mistake. Anything Oswald actually said before he died could be written off as a dying man's delusions.

Plus Ruby spells it out for you in the video I posted up thread. He had no hope of exoneration by confessing his actions were part of a conspiracy, so why did he say that? Because he was the sacrificial lamb as the unorthodox hitman. If he was a mobster hitman then the DPD would have some splainin' to do why he had unprecedented access to Oswald. Otherwise, Ruby could fly under the radar and the DPD could extort him to finish the job they started.

As Paul Harvey would say, that's the rest of the story.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 28, 2020, 02:51:26 AM
I guess you’ll have to ask somebody who believes that we have this super competent team of co-conspirators who have had this laid out from as far back as '61, whose plan has gone flawlessly up to this point.

Iacoletti,

I thought it went all the way back to 1959, when evil, evil, evil James Angleton sent false-defector Oswald to Moscow.

LOL

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on January 28, 2020, 10:51:16 AM
You might take a look at the Olsen thread.

Ruby was at the DPD twice on Friday night. Armed.

First time about 6pm.

That's about 3, maybe 4 hours after the arrest.
Before - I think, correct me if I'm wrong - the press conference, arraignment, etc.

He was. Why didn't he shoot him then? In the head?

Easy peasy.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3f/30/14/3f301498b50fd75fd86e64c9edee2e5e.jpg)
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on January 28, 2020, 01:18:22 PM
By Jeff Meek
January 14, 2020

Former Dallas police officer W.E. “Rusty” Robbins had a ringside seat for aspects of the Nov. 22, 1963 assassination of President Kennedy, which he shared with me during a Dec. 4 interview at his Texas home.

Robbins was born and raised in the Dallas area. In 1953, the U.S. was at war with Korea and Robbins was looking for a way around the draft, so he joined the Air National Guard/Air Police unit. During that time he got to know several Dallas Police Department officers.

“That’s when I decided I wanted to become a police officer,” Robbins said. So on Dec. 26, 1956, be began what became a distinguished 30 years with the department.

Interestingly, before his official training began, he was told the rookie class had already started, how about doing some undercover work? He did, with no badge, no training, no gun, no partner, nothing until he was able to borrow a badge from another officer so he would have something to show when making an arrest.

In rookie school he learned a lot about law, city ordinances, how to take down an offender and self-defense. He worked the north Dallas area with a training partner in the Royal Lane area with cotton fields all around. Eventually he officially became a patrolman in 1957.

“Every day was different than the day before. I think that holds true even today,” said Robbins.

Jumping ahead to November 1963, when he and other officers attended a briefing on President Kennedy’s trip, he was assigned to crowd control for the 1800 block of Main Street which was the street that led into Dealey Plaza where the assassination took place.

As the motorcade approached, Robbins kept his eye on the crowd, but admitted he did glance at the President as his limo passed by. “I saw everything. I was right there on the curb,” said Robbins.

After the motorcade passed, the crowd quickly dispersed and Robbins went back to headquarters. He was changing into his civilian clothes when someone said Kennedy had been shot. He thought it was a joke, but within another minute or 2 he knew it wasn’t.
He put his uniform back on and was told to go to the nearby Sheraton Hotel, to a particular room where the White House Communications team was set up, and assist them as needed. Obtaining a patrol car, Robbins went to the room and a man (to this day he does not know his name) said he needed to get to Love Field to board Air Force One. Minutes later the man came out with communications equipment and off they went with lights and siren. As they entered the airport grounds they could see that the President’s jet was taxiing for takeoff. They were too late. The man told Robbins to drop him at the airport’s front door and he’d catch a commercial flight. Back at headquarters Robbins again changed into his civilian clothes. His Nov. 22 duties were over.

Robbins backtracked a bit to say while at headquarters he also learned that Officer J.D. Tippit had been shot. He knew Tippit and said he was a really good guy.

Two days later, on Nov. 24, nightclub owner Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald in the Dallas P.D. basement. Robbins was at home getting ready to report in. He stopped to watch the transfer of Oswald and saw the shooting. “I told my wife, that’s Jack Ruby,” Robbins said. He knew Ruby from working the area of downtown Dallas where Ruby’s Carousel Club was located. “I had talked to Jack many, many times as well as other bar operators,” he told me. Asked if he ever saw other D.P.D. persons in the club, Robbins said, “never.”

On one occasion Robbins was in the club’s kitchen fixing a pizza and was offered non-alcoholic champagne by Ruby. “So we had a little drink back in the kitchen.”

Back to the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald: he reported in and was told to get a car and go to Parkland Hospital’s morgue. His assignment was to guard the door that led to the room where Oswald’s body was to be autopsied. “I was told not to let anybody through that door. I don’t care if it’s a doctor or the FBI, don’t let them through.”

In online photographs you can see Robbins and another P.D. officer with their shotguns, guarding the area. In one photo you can see a gurney. Under that white sheet lay Oswald’s body. A few photographers asked Robbins if he would let them in the autopsy room for a quick photo. Of course the answer was no.

About 2 hours later he was told to get a car and be ready to be part of an escort of Oswald’s body over to Fort Worth. He did so and explained that about halfway, Fort Worth P.D. took over the escort and D.P.D. came back to Dallas.

Later, Robbins told me he was asked if he wanted to see Oswald’s body, which he did briefly. “The sheet (covering Oswald) was pulled all the way down to his waist,” Robbins remembers. Thus ended a wild weekend for Robbins who said of the aftermath of the killings that police just went about their business.

At this point I asked him again about Jack Ruby. He then told me of a time when the 2 of them went bowling. “This is a very important point I’d like to make,” he said. After making a stop at Ruby’s apartment, they went to the bowling alley where Robbins worked part time as security for the parking lot. He described a frame in which Ruby bowled a strike. “He was so thrilled, he had finally done something,” Robbins explained. Further. he said Ruby went to the lanes to the right and left telling other bowlers what he’d done. “Nobody cared except Jack.

He was wanting recognition for bowling that strike. Later when he had the opportunity to shoot Oswald it was like bowling that strike. It was a chance to be somebody. I do not believe that there is any other reason why Jack Ruby shot him.” Robbins doesn’t believe the Mafia or anyone else told Ruby to kill Oswald. “This was just his chance to be somebody.“
What about Oswald? Was he a lone assassin? Robbins said he doesn’t know, but prefers to think Oswald did it alone.

Asked if he thought Ruby had mob connections, Robbins said Ruby worked in the area where the mob was present and invited them to his club. “But beyond that I really doubt it. He added, “Jack was a failure. Jack had several different (business) places that served beer and every one of them had gone under. There were 3 places like that downtown and his was the poorest of the 3, had the least number of customers. He was a failure.”

After 30 years with the Dallas police force Robbins worked a few other jobs including with the Department of Transportation as a parking enforcement officer and also with the Texas Lottery Commission.

Historic stuff here, Paul.  Thanks for sharing.  Ruby bowled a turkey with one ball that day in the DPD basement.  And yes, I'm sure he was thinking about getting a shot into him earlier, but shooting him in the gut was safer than trying to shoot him in the head.  That shot could have gone through and wounded someone else, too.  But the stars were aligned that day+
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Tonkovich on January 28, 2020, 03:49:08 PM
He was. Why didn't he shoot him then? In the head?

Easy peasy.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3f/30/14/3f301498b50fd75fd86e64c9edee2e5e.jpg)

????

The hunter stalks his prey.

As to Ruby getting in the basement on Sunday, see Burt Griffin testimony, WC. ( Ruby had help.)
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 28, 2020, 07:10:53 PM
Why didn't he shoot him then? In the head? Easy peasy.
Yeah easy--- no cops in the way there ::)
The cops finished the job they bungled..Oswald was not to survive to trial.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Paul May on January 29, 2020, 04:43:11 PM
Ruby stalked Oswald as per instructions. He was in compliance with the DPD, who were obvious conspirators in the Big Event.

Why else would Ruby have done it?


When I see the word “obvious” in a response, I stop reading. Nothing about 11/22 is obvious.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 29, 2020, 05:11:57 PM
Dallas PD: "We have to silence Oswald in order to prevent him from exposing the plot. If he talks to the public he'll reveal it..."

Oops.

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ba/20/30/ba20301fc647e6f1aa5265bb4d1cead0--dealey-plaza-kennedy-assassination.jpg)
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Tonkovich on January 29, 2020, 09:49:13 PM
Dallas PD: "We have to silence Oswald in order to prevent him from exposing the plot. If he talks to the public he'll reveal it..."

Oops.

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ba/20/30/ba20301fc647e6f1aa5265bb4d1cead0--dealey-plaza-kennedy-assassination.jpg)

Straw man argument

Ruby silenced Oswald.
DPD is not the topic.
Oswald did speak, said he was innocent.
Interrogation was just getting underway.
Much more could have been revealed.

Ruby was at DPD at 4:00 pm, Friday. Stalking Oswald
DPD was inept, had -obviously- poor security. Doesn't mean they were plotters.

Sgt Dean let Ruby in through side door on Sunday morning.

According to Ken Rahm, Ruby was at DPD 8am Sunday.

Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 29, 2020, 09:49:44 PM
Dallas PD: "We have to silence Oswald in order to prevent him from exposing the plot. If he talks to the public he'll reveal it..."
Oops.
Yeah right...after all they gave him a whole 10 -15 seconds to explain everything.
Try and grasp reality will ya?  ::)


 
 
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jack Trojan on January 29, 2020, 10:48:50 PM
When I see the word “obvious” in a response, I stop reading. Nothing about 11/22 is obvious.

You must have stopped reading anything that contradicted your flimsy lone nut hypothesis when you became a full fledged Warren Commission Defender. Hook line and sinker.

Some things were obvious re 11/22 such as the DPD's actions from their handling of crime scene evidence to sheep dipping Oswald with the BY photos. To those who look objectively at the evidence, Fritz, in particular, was obviously a conspirator under Hoover's thumb.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 30, 2020, 01:57:51 AM
By Jeff Meek
January 14, 2020 Former Dallas police officer W.E. “Rusty” Robbins had a ringside seat for aspects of the Nov. 22, 1963 assassination of President Kennedy, which he shared with me during a Dec. 4 interview at his Texas home.
56 years later?
Quote
He knew Ruby from working the area of downtown Dallas where Ruby’s Carousel Club was located. “I had talked to Jack many, many times as well as other bar operators,” he told me. Asked if he ever saw other D.P.D. persons in the club, Robbins said, “never.”
He must have not looked around very hard. 
Quote
On one occasion Robbins was in the club’s kitchen fixing a pizza and was offered non-alcoholic champagne by Ruby. “So we had a little drink back in the kitchen.”
But only just one occasion?
Quote

 ...[at] Parkland Hospital’s morgue. His assignment was to guard the door that led to the room where Oswald’s body was to be autopsied. “I was told not to let anybody through that door. I don’t care if it’s a doctor or the FBI, don’t let them through.”
 Later, Robbins told me he was asked if he wanted to see Oswald’s body, which he did briefly.
Who asked Robbin's if he wanted a peek?...The same one [whoever that was] that told him to admit no one? Yeah--Right. 
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on January 30, 2020, 12:03:02 PM
Yes "they" left Oswald be interrogated for 48 hours including allowing him to speak in front of the whole world.

Also, can anyone explain why Ruby shot him in the stomach? Which is not a kill shot as abdominal gunshot wounds have a 90% survival rate.

Honestly, someone please explain this.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 30, 2020, 01:16:11 PM
Are you suggesting that Jack Ruby

a) intentionally planned to shoot Oswald only in the abdomen

b) knew the survival rate of abdominal gunshot wounds
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on January 30, 2020, 04:59:41 PM
Are you suggesting that Jack Ruby

a) intentionally planned to shoot Oswald only in the abdomen

b) knew the survival rate of abdominal gunshot wounds

You shoot him in the head or you don't shoot him at all. You wait until he gets to prison and kill him there.

Whats the difference between a clumsy effort in the police station or waiting a day and killing him in prison?

He wasn't going to court that day. It would've been months before a trial started so "they" would have had time to get him in prison.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 30, 2020, 06:24:04 PM
You shoot him in the head or you don't shoot him at all. You wait until he gets to prison and kill him there.

Do you have some experience as a mafia hit man?

Quote
Whats the difference between a clumsy effort in the police station or waiting a day and killing him in prison?

He wasn't going to court that day. It would've been months before a trial started so "they" would have had time to get him in prison.

Ruby was buddy-buddy with the DPD.  Once Oswald was transferred to county, he wouldn't have had such access.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 30, 2020, 09:57:38 PM
Yes "they" left Oswald be interrogated for 48 hours including allowing him to speak in front of the whole world.

Also, can anyone explain why Ruby shot him in the stomach? Which is not a kill shot as abdominal gunshot wounds have a 90% survival rate.

Honestly, someone please explain this.
Oswald talked to his wife, his mother and his brother. In each case alone, one on one. I've seen I've seen almost nothing indicating they were being monitored and even less indicating Oswald was prevented from fully talking to them. He talked alone to Lou Nichols, the head of the Dallas Bar Association. He was able to make phone calls. He met with the press. He was able to talk/yell to the press in the hall as he was being escorted from the various offices. In one of them he yelled he wanted John Abt as his lawyer.

He had numerous opportunities to expose this so called conspiracy. Not only did he not expose any conspiracy, the Dallas Police Department allowed him to expose one by allowing the above opportunities. Why take that risk? It makes no sense to me.

These are the types of questions that the conspiracy crowd - those that believe Oswald knew something - don't like. They show the sheer illogic of what they claim happened versus what did.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 30, 2020, 11:22:10 PM
These are the types of questions that the conspiracy crowd - those that believe Oswald knew something - don't like. They show the sheer illogic of what they claim happened versus what did.
Regroup some brain cells ---Does it occur to the mind that maybe...just perhaps.... a patsy doesn't know anything about the plot/& or crime he is being framed for? :-\
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on January 31, 2020, 09:47:35 AM
Do you have some experience as a mafia hit man?

Show me another example of an important assassination with a .38 to the stomach. It doesn't happen.

Ruby was buddy-buddy with the DPD.  Once Oswald was transferred to county, he wouldn't have had such access.

No but someone else would have. Much easier to kill him there.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 31, 2020, 02:12:14 PM
Show me another example of an important assassination with a .38 to the stomach. It doesn't happen.

Why would you assume that Jack Ruby’s goal was to shoot Oswald in the stomach?

Quote
No but someone else would have. Much easier to kill him there.

Someone else? How big a conspiracy do you believe in? Not sure where you get the “much easier” either. Are you saying that County was even more inept (or corrupt) than DPD?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 31, 2020, 02:58:16 PM
Regroup some brain cells ---Does it occur to the mind that maybe...just perhaps.... a patsy doesn't know anything about the plot/& or crime he is being framed for? :-\
So now it's the "Oswald didn't know what happened to him?" argument. Did he or did he not have evidence about the conspiracy to kill JFK? Yes or no?

The specific claim being discussed is that Oswald was silenced/killed by Ruby and the DPD because he had knowledge/information that would have exposed the plot. That is the claim.

Again: If he had such knowledge then why allow him to talk to his family and others and also meet with the press? It makes no sense.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 31, 2020, 03:32:14 PM
   Did he or did he not have evidence about the conspiracy to kill JFK? Yes or no?
How about quite doubtful?
Quote
The specific claim being discussed is that Oswald was silenced/killed by Ruby and the DPD because he had knowledge/information that would have exposed the plot. That is the claim.
The only one 'claiming to be discussing that Oswald knew about some plot'  -- is-- Mr Galbraith.
There is already-- another older specific thread on Why was Oswald killed ...why not go there... revive and discuss it?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2096.0.html
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Tonkovich on January 31, 2020, 10:03:40 PM
quote author=Paul May link=topic=2388.msg75159#msg75159 date=1579921511]
By Jeff Meek
January 14, 2020

Former Dallas police officer W.E. “Rusty” Robbins had a ringside seat for aspects of the Nov. 22, 1963 assassination of President Kennedy, which he shared with me during a Dec. 4 interview at his Texas home.

Robbins was born and raised in the Dallas area. In 1953, the U.S. was at war with Korea and Robbins was looking for a way around the draft, so he joined the Air National Guard/Air Police unit. During that time he got to know several Dallas Police Department officers.

“That’s when I decided I wanted to become a police officer,” Robbins said. So on Dec. 26, 1956, be began what became a distinguished 30 years with the department.

Interestingly, before his official training began, he was told the rookie class had already started, how about doing some undercover work? He did, with no badge, no training, no gun, no partner, nothing until he was able to borrow a badge from another officer so he would have something to show when making an arrest.

In rookie school he learned a lot about law, city ordinances, how to take down an offender and self-defense. He worked the north Dallas area with a training partner in the Royal Lane area with cotton fields all around. Eventually he officially became a patrolman in 1957.

“Every day was different than the day before. I think that holds true even today,” said Robbins.

Jumping ahead to November 1963, when he and other officers attended a briefing on President Kennedy’s trip, he was assigned to crowd control for the 1800 block of Main Street which was the street that led into Dealey Plaza where the assassination took place.

As the motorcade approached, Robbins kept his eye on the crowd, but admitted he did glance at the President as his limo passed by. “I saw everything. I was right there on the curb,” said Robbins.

After the motorcade passed, the crowd quickly dispersed and Robbins went back to headquarters. He was changing into his civilian clothes when someone said Kennedy had been shot. He thought it was a joke, but within another minute or 2 he knew it wasn’t.
He put his uniform back on and was told to go to the nearby Sheraton Hotel, to a particular room where the White House Communications team was set up, and assist them as needed. Obtaining a patrol car, Robbins went to the room and a man (to this day he does not know his name) said he needed to get to Love Field to board Air Force One. Minutes later the man came out with communications equipment and off they went with lights and siren. As they entered the airport grounds they could see that the President’s jet was taxiing for takeoff. They were too late. The man told Robbins to drop him at the airport’s front door and he’d catch a commercial flight. Back at headquarters Robbins again changed into his civilian clothes. His Nov. 22 duties were over.

Robbins backtracked a bit to say while at headquarters he also learned that Officer J.D. Tippit had been shot. He knew Tippit and said he was a really good guy.

Two days later, on Nov. 24, nightclub owner Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald in the Dallas P.D. basement. Robbins was at home getting ready to report in. He stopped to watch the transfer of Oswald and saw the shooting. “I told my wife, that’s Jack Ruby,” Robbins said. He knew Ruby from working the area of downtown Dallas where Ruby’s Carousel Club was located. “I had talked to Jack many, many times as well as other bar operators,” he told me. Asked if he ever saw other D.P.D. persons in the club, Robbins said, “never.”

On one occasion Robbins was in the club’s kitchen fixing a pizza and was offered non-alcoholic champagne by Ruby. “So we had a little drink back in the kitchen.”

Back to the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald: he reported in and was told to get a car and go to Parkland Hospital’s morgue. His assignment was to guard the door that led to the room where Oswald’s body was to be autopsied. “I was told not to let anybody through that door. I don’t care if it’s a doctor or the FBI, don’t let them through.”

In online photographs you can see Robbins and another P.D. officer with their shotguns, guarding the area. In one photo you can see a gurney. Under that white sheet lay Oswald’s body. A few photographers asked Robbins if he would let them in the autopsy room for a quick photo. Of course the answer was no.

About 2 hours later he was told to get a car and be ready to be part of an escort of Oswald’s body over to Fort Worth. He did so and explained that about halfway, Fort Worth P.D. took over the escort and D.P.D. came back to Dallas.

Later, Robbins told me he was asked if he wanted to see Oswald’s body, which he did briefly. “The sheet (covering Oswald) was pulled all the way down to his waist,” Robbins remembers. Thus ended a wild weekend for Robbins who said of the aftermath of the killings that police just went about their business.

At this point I asked him again about Jack Ruby. He then told me of a time when the 2 of them went bowling. “This is a very important point I’d like to make,” he said. After making a stop at Ruby’s apartment, they went to the bowling alley where Robbins worked part time as security for the parking lot. He described a frame in which Ruby bowled a strike. “He was so thrilled, he had finally done something,” Robbins explained. Further. he said Ruby went to the lanes to the right and left telling other bowlers what he’d done. “Nobody cared except Jack.

He was wanting recognition for bowling that strike. Later when he had the opportunity to shoot Oswald it was like bowling that strike. It was a chance to be somebody. I do not believe that there is any other reason why Jack Ruby shot him.” Robbins doesn’t believe the Mafia or anyone else told Ruby to kill Oswald. “This was just his chance to be somebody.“
What about Oswald? Was he a lone assassin? Robbins said he doesn’t know, but prefers to think Oswald did it alone.

Asked if he thought Ruby had mob connections, Robbins said Ruby worked in the area where the mob was present and invited them to his club. “But beyond that I really doubt it. He added, “Jack was a failure. Jack had several different (business) places that served beer and every one of them had gone under. There were 3 places like that downtown and his was the poorest of the 3, had the least number of customers. He was a failure.”

After 30 years with the Dallas police force Robbins worked a few other jobs including with the Department of Transportation as a parking enforcement officer and also with the Texas Lottery Commission.
[/quote]

Well, actually, Ruby did have "mob" connections.

Visited imprisoned mob guys in Cuba after the revolution.  Several times.

Suspected of gun running to Cuba, to aid Castro, in 57 or 58.

And more.

Anecdotal  versus Empirical?
Your choice.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on February 01, 2020, 05:53:41 PM
How about quite doubtful?The only one 'claiming to be discussing that Oswald knew about some plot'  -- is-- Mr Galbraith.
There is already-- another older specific thread on Why was Oswald killed ...why not go there... revive and discuss it?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2096.0.html
Jack Trojan above said this: "Ruby stalked Oswald as per instructions. He was in compliance with the DPD, who were obvious conspirators in the Big Event."

That is not me saying it; it is Mr. Trojan. I, in turn, responded indirectly to that. As did another poster.

In the original post by Paul May, the article quoted someone who knew Ruby saying this:
"I do not believe that there is any other reason why Jack Ruby shot him.” Robbins doesn’t believe the Mafia or anyone else told Ruby to kill Oswald. "

The "real Ruby" according to this account would not have killed Oswald on the directions of someone. That is the part I am addressing. I.e, whether he was directed to do so and whether the DPD allowed him to silence Oswald.

I find it, well, interesting, that someone like you who hijacks nearly every thread with your unrelated to the topic conspiracy views is complaining about another person supposedly hijacking one. Again, I responded directly and indirectly to the issue of who Ruby was and whether he was directed or part of a plot to silence Oswald.

Now you need to try and do the same thing. Go ahead, enlighten us with your ideas and thoughts.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 01, 2020, 07:26:00 PM
 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/n2807u31ctvj5dv/RubyandNixon.jpg?dl=0)

Left to right...Richard Nixon...Jack Ruby...Prescott Bush

(https://thedallaswhisperer.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/jack-ruby-nightclub-operator-everett.jpg?w=478&h=598)

Another picture of Ruby in his younger years
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Joffrey van de Wiel on February 02, 2020, 01:23:45 AM
"The murder of Oswald by Jack Ruby had all the earmarks of an organized-crime hit, an action to silence the assassin, so he could not reveal the conspiracy."

- G. Robert Blakey, Chief Counsel to the House Select Committee on Assassinations, 1980
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Paul May on February 02, 2020, 01:57:16 AM
Historic stuff here, Paul.  Thanks for sharing.  Ruby bowled a turkey with one ball that day in the DPD basement.  And yes, I'm sure he was thinking about getting a shot into him earlier, but shooting him in the gut was safer than trying to shoot him in the head.  That shot could have gone through and wounded someone else, too.  But the stars were aligned that day+

Welcome Mark.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 02, 2020, 09:52:59 AM
"The murder of Oswald by Jack Ruby had all the earmarks of an organized-crime hit, an action to silence the assassin, so he could not reveal the conspiracy."

- G. Robert Blakey, Chief Counsel to the House Select Committee on Assassinations, 1980

And again, no one seems to be able to answer, why did he aim for stomach?

It has no earmarks of an organized crime hit. Organized crime hits don't consist of single shots to the stomach with a .38. Ever.

Why not? Because theres a 90% chance of survival.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 02, 2020, 03:47:14 PM
And again, no one seems to be able to answer, why did he aim for stomach?

Why do you assume that he did?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Tonkovich on February 03, 2020, 12:11:56 AM
And again, no one seems to be able to answer, why did he aim for stomach?

It has no earmarks of an organized crime hit. Organized crime hits don't consist of single shots to the stomach with a .38. Ever.

Why not? Because theres a 90% chance of survival.

Where do you get "90 chance of survival"?
Thanks

Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 03, 2020, 01:24:53 AM
Because he was a delusional hothead. Remember, he shot Oswald in the stomach.

"They" take out the assassin with a bullet to the stomach, giving them a 90% chance of survival (up to 98% if you can get quickly to a hospital as is the case here) and guaranteeing Oswald would spill the beans after likely surviving the attempt on his life.

Heres a study of 300 patients with abdominal gunshot wounds.

"The overall survival rate for the series was 88.3%; however, if only the 226 patients without vascular injuries are considered, the survival rate was 97.3%."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1493651/

Ruby got either very lucky or very unlucky depending on how you see it. The chances of him killing Oswald with that shot were tiny. If Jim Leavelle hadn't have pulled Oswald sideways slightly the bullet wouldn't have hit those organs and he could have easily survived. It was a total fluke that he died.

Not a mob hit.

You really should learn the basics ..... Ruby's shot damaged several vital organs.....He knew what he was doing.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 03, 2020, 01:35:02 AM
You really should learn the basics ..... Ruby's shot damaged several vital organs.....He knew what he was doing.
We should accept Mr Shield's expertise/knowledge on professional mobster liquidation [for whatever it may be worth]

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/93apuv8z7jfi2cw/Golz_Ruby_gunrunning.jpg?dl=0)
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Tonkovich on February 03, 2020, 01:41:13 AM
Because he was a delusional hothead. Remember, he shot Oswald in the stomach.

"They" take out the assassin with a bullet to the stomach, giving them a 90% chance of survival (up to 98% if you can get quickly to a hospital as is the case here) and guaranteeing Oswald would spill the beans after likely surviving the attempt on his life.

Heres a study of 300 patients with abdominal gunshot wounds.

"The overall survival rate for the series was 88.3%; however, if only the 226 patients without vascular injuries are considered, the survival rate was 97.3%."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1493651/

Ruby got either very lucky or very unlucky depending on how you see it. The chances of him killing Oswald with that shot were tiny. If Jim Leavelle hadn't have pulled Oswald sideways slightly the bullet wouldn't have hit those organs and he could have easily survived. It was a total fluke that he died.

Not a mob hit.
Your study is from 1983 to 1987.  GSW treatment - especially in specialized trauma centers - advanced greatly in the 20 ( to 24) years covered in the study.

Ruby - perhaps aided by his knowledge of guns, after a history of gun running in the 50s - knew what he was doing.
And, he had been stalking his prey all weekend, beginning about 3 hours after Oswald was brought to DPD headquarters.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 03, 2020, 04:01:09 AM
You really should learn the basics ..... Ruby's shot damaged several vital organs.....He knew what he was doing.

And the police helped by doing chest compressions.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Frederick Clements on February 03, 2020, 01:39:38 PM
Ruby was likely asked by the DPD to shoot Oswald in order to close the case and prevent a trial. The DPD and the DA Henry Wade were highly corrupt.

Fred
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 03, 2020, 03:01:57 PM
You really should learn the basics ..... Ruby's shot damaged several vital organs.....He knew what he was doing.

So you're telling me that Rubys three yard dash and clumsy shot while Oswald was being pulled sideways by Leavelle was actually a carefully placed shot on Rubys part, guaranteeing instant death?

If no vital organs are hit and the hemorrhage is contained, the victim will probably survive. Ruby had no way to know he was hitting Oswalds spleen, stomach, aorta, vena cava, kidney, liver and diaphragm. One in a million shot. Miraculous that Oswald was even unconscious.

Where do you get "90 chance of survival"?
Thanks

Loads of studies. Thats the standard percentage. And thats without immediate care as Oswald had. He was in Parkland within minutes.

Heres a study from July 1968 through June 1973, 277 abdominal gunshot wounds (GSWs) occurred, the overall fatality of which was 10%.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstract/581966

Heres another one of 300 consecutive patients from July 1983 through December 1987

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3421760

The overall survival rate for the series was 88.3%; however, if only the 226 patients without vascular injuries are considered, the survival rate was 97.3%.

Ruby would've had as much of a chance of killing him had he slashed his femoral artery in his leg.

Now, couple this with Ruby being in Western Union, Ruby "silencing" Oswald its a silly theory.

Next question - who silences Ruby? The notorious motor mouth.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Tonkovich on February 03, 2020, 04:51:48 PM
So you're telling me that Rubys three yard dash and clumsy shot while Oswald was being pulled sideways by Leavelle was actually a carefully placed shot on Rubys part, guaranteeing instant death?

If no vital organs are hit and the hemorrhage is contained, the victim will probably survive. Ruby had no way to know he was hitting Oswalds spleen, stomach, aorta, vena cava, kidney, liver and diaphragm. One in a million shot. Miraculous that Oswald was even unconscious.

Loads of studies. Thats the standard percentage. And thats without immediate care as Oswald had. He was in Parkland within minutes.

Heres a study from July 1968 through June 1973, 277 abdominal gunshot wounds (GSWs) occurred, the overall fatality of which was 10%.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstract/581966

Heres another one of 300 consecutive patients from July 1983 through December 1987

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3421760

The overall survival rate for the series was 88.3%; however, if only the 226 patients without vascular injuries are considered, the survival rate was 97.3%.

Ruby would've had as much of a chance of killing him had he slashed his femoral artery in his leg.

Now, couple this with Ruby being in Western Union, Ruby "silencing" Oswald its a silly theory.

Next question - who silences Ruby? The notorious motor mouth.

Oswald autopsy:

Penetration of liver, spleen, stomach, aorta, diaphragm.

Lots of vital organs and the biggest artery.
Well placed shot, not quite "center mass, as they say. Kind of hard to go for the head, which was moving around.

Ruby began stalking Oswald at 5:00 to 6:00 p.m. He lied about this first encounter. Also about his 8a.m. , Sunday, appearance at DPD, which Ken Rahm - not a conspiracy "kook" (sic) - pointed out.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 04, 2020, 09:51:22 AM
Oswald autopsy:

Penetration of liver, spleen, stomach, aorta, diaphragm.

Lots of vital organs and the biggest artery.
Well placed shot, not quite "center mass, as they say. Kind of hard to go for the head, which was moving around.

Ruby began stalking Oswald at 5:00 to 6:00 p.m. He lied about this first encounter. Also about his 8a.m. , Sunday, appearance at DPD, which Ken Rahm - not a conspiracy "kook" (sic) - pointed out.

"Well placed shot"?

Are you claiming he was so good he could guarantee a kill shot through those organs while himself and Oswald were walking?

Nah.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Tonkovich on February 04, 2020, 02:53:38 PM
"Well placed shot"?

Are you claiming he was so good he could guarantee a kill shot through those organs while himself and Oswald were walking?

Nah.

I'm not claiming anything.

He shot Oswald at point blank range. Effective result.

None of the studies you bring up are specific to point blank range gunshots.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 04, 2020, 04:15:21 PM
I'm not claiming anything.

He shot Oswald at point blank range. Effective result.

None of the studies you bring up are specific to point blank range gunshots.

If the heart and brain are avoided, theres a good chance of survival. Which is why assassins actually shoot people in the heart or the brain!

William McKinley was shot in the abdomen from point blank range and it took him a week to die of gangrene.

James Garfield was shot twice in the back from point blank range and it took him nearly 3 months to die from it.

So, Oswald, the most important assassination in history, apart from the one 48 hours previously, and they're chancing a handgun shot to the gut to silence Oswald?

Does that actually make sense to anyone?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 04, 2020, 05:22:32 PM
If the heart and brain are avoided, theres a good chance of survival. Which is why assassins actually shoot people in the heart or the brain!

William McKinley was shot in the abdomen from point blank range and it took him a week to die of gangrene.

James Garfield was shot twice in the back from point blank range and it took him nearly 3 months to die from it.

So, Oswald, the most important assassination in history, apart from the one 48 hours previously, and they're chancing a handgun shot to the gut to silence Oswald?

Does that actually make sense to anyone?

What makes sense is that nobody is going to rely on unstable nutballs like Oswald and Ruby.

Re Garfield, he was hit once in the back and the other bullet grazed his shoulder. They couldn't find the bullet in his back. He likely would have survived his wounds but for infections caused by sloppy doctors in the hunt for the missile.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Tonkovich on February 04, 2020, 06:07:23 PM
If the heart and brain are avoided, theres a good chance of survival. Which is why assassins actually shoot people in the heart or the brain!

William McKinley was shot in the abdomen from point blank range and it took him a week to die of gangrene.

James Garfield was shot twice in the back from point blank range and it took him nearly 3 months to die from it.

So, Oswald, the most important assassination in history, apart from the one 48 hours previously, and they're chancing a handgun shot to the gut to silence Oswald?

Does that actually make sense to anyone?

Oswald was hit in the aorta, according to the autopsy, and also the liver and spleen.

The aorta is the largest artery in the body.

Obviously,  Ruby's shot was very effective.

Again, Ruby lied about his first visit to DPD, Friday,  5 to 6 pm, and his Sunday morning visit as well. This was a "spur of the moment" killing, that he happened to be planning for three days?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Joffrey van de Wiel on February 04, 2020, 06:34:23 PM
It is the result that counts: Ruby shot Oswald, who soon thereafter lost consciousness and died at 1.07 p.m.

There was also a group of one hundred members who had voted 100 to nil to kill Oswald while he was being transferred to the County Jail, in addition to other threats:

During the night, between 2:30 and 3 a.m., the local office of the FBI and the sheriff's office received telephone calls from an unidentified man who warned that a committee had decided "to kill the man that killed the President." Shortly after, an FBI agent notified the Dallas police of the anonymous threat. The police department and ultimately Chief Curry were informed of both threats.

- Warren Report page 209.

More on the death threats in this report by Officer McCoy, page 537-539:

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Decker_Ex_5323.pdf

Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 04, 2020, 10:32:34 PM
If the heart and brain are avoided, theres a good chance of survival. Which is why assassins actually shoot people in the heart or the brain!

William McKinley was shot in the abdomen from point blank range and it took him a week to die of gangrene.

James Garfield was shot twice in the back from point blank range and it took him nearly 3 months to die from it.

Are you suggesting that Czolgosz and Guiteau weren’t trying to kill their targets?

Lincoln lived for 9 hours. What was Booth thinking?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 05, 2020, 09:31:37 AM
Oswald was hit in the aorta, according to the autopsy, and also the liver and spleen.

The aorta is the largest artery in the body.

Obviously,  Ruby's shot was very effective.

Again, Ruby lied about his first visit to DPD, Friday,  5 to 6 pm, and his Sunday morning visit as well. This was a "spur of the moment" killing, that he happened to be planning for three days?

No Ruby admitted that if he had've had a good shot he would've shot Oswald on Friday but didn't want to hit the police.

So Ruby was such a good shot, he knew that he could hit Oswald in thew aorta? A 3.0 cm2 target?

What makes sense is that nobody is going to rely on unstable nutballs like Oswald and Ruby.

Exactly. Yet people believe "they" relied on these two to pull off the biggest conspiracy in history.

No one can answer who was supposed to silence Ruby. And why didn't they?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 05, 2020, 09:38:25 PM
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/a8vo6vpzaow8x92/T-2_Ruby_Gunrunning.jpg?dl=0)
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Tonkovich on February 05, 2020, 11:35:12 PM
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/a8vo6vpzaow8x92/T-2_Ruby_Gunrunning.jpg?dl=0)

Thanks.
Real evidence. As opposed to some anecdotal rubbish.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 10, 2020, 03:27:30 PM
The Warren Commission team ignored Jack Ruby's Mafia ties. The WC group claimed that no evidence could be found concerning such.
Quote
Based on its evaluation of the record, however, the Commission believes that the evidence does not establish a significant link between Ruby and organized crime. Both State and Federal officials have indicated that Ruby was not affiliated with organized criminal activity.400 And numerous persons have reported that Ruby was not connected with such activity.
The Report acknowledges a casual association with Lewis McWillie...skirting his major exploits as a mob figure.
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-16.html#underworld
 However, there was a lot more to it and everybody involved knew it---
 
Quote
Lewis McWillie worked as a professional gambler in Memphis, Tennessee (1932-36). Later he worked in Jackson, Mississippi, and Dallas, Texas (1940-58). Then he moved to the Deauville Casino in Cuba. A fellow worker at the casino was John Martino. McWillie was also a business associate of Santos Trafficante and Meyer Lansky and later ran the Tropicana Casino in Havana. In August 1959 Jack Ruby visited McWillie.

When Fidel Castro took control of of the island McWillie was arrested and then deported to the United States. After a period in Miami Meyer Lansky placed him inside of his Tropicana Casino in Las Vegas. In 1961 Sam Giancana and Johnny Roselli recruited McWillie to look after Frank Sinatra's Cal-Neva Lodge in Nevada.

On 17th November, 1963, McWillie was seen with Jack Ruby at the Thunderbird Casino Las Vegas. According to John William Tuohy: "Two days after meeting McWillie in Las Vegas, Ruby was back in Dallas, flush with enough cash to pay off his back taxes."
https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKmcwillie.htm
 The Warren gang decided to dismiss Ruby's various activities with the underworld but Chief Council Robert Blakey decided to get a further look. Mr McWillie was certainly more than just a lowly gambler from Memphis.
Lewis McWillie was interviewed by the HSCA lawyers. It was telling enough [239 pages] The word 'guns' was mentioned some 3 dozen times.
Here is that link...
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol5/pdf/HSCA_Vol5_0927_2_McWillie.pdf
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 10, 2020, 04:02:39 PM
The Warren Commission team ignored Jack Ruby's Mafia ties.

He clearly had mafia ties. Thats not really up for debate.

Still doesn't explain this miraculous shot to the stomach. Or him bringing his dog with him. Or being in Western Union. Or why he didn't shoot Oswald in the police station, or wait until he got to jail.....
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 10, 2020, 05:58:20 PM
He clearly had mafia ties. Thats not really up for debate.

Still doesn't explain this miraculous shot to the stomach. Or him bringing his dog with him. Or being in Western Union. Or why he didn't shoot Oswald in the police station, or wait until he got to jail.....
Quote
"Or why he didn't shoot Oswald in the police station"
Ruby did shoot Oswald in the police station..right in front of the Keystone Cops.
Quote
Or him bringing his dog with him.
Yeah...in the George Senator testimony 'dogs' were mentioned some 60 times and nothing was ever 'explained'.
Quote
this miraculous shot to the stomach
A .38 shot in the gut upwards can kill. What you don't know is what ever happened to Oswald after he was was loaded up and headed for the hospital.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Mike Orr on February 12, 2020, 01:50:16 AM
It seems that Ruby not only knew many personnel at the Dallas Police Dept. which made it easier for him to get in the room where Oswald was being told that he was being charged with the shooting deaths of JFK and Tippit and also gets him in the front row area which gives him access to be able to Shoot Oswald in the stomach area . It was irrefutable that Jack Ruby had Mafia ties and as for the so called single bullet that supposedly went through JFK and John C , well , that dog just don't hunt !
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 12, 2020, 09:25:30 PM

Quote
A Dallas deputy sheriff named Al Maddox reported 30 years later that shortly before imprisoned Jack Ruby died on January 3rd, 1967, he slipped a note through his cell door and confessed: the mafia made him do it. It was the same confession gangster Carlos Marcello issued in HIS prison cell, in the 1980s, when incarcerated in Texarkana. He ordered Ruby to do it, to silence Oswald before he could blab to the prosecutors and the press, that the syndicate was behind the Kennedy assassination - and the Oswald assassination.
https://www.facebook.com/JFKandtheWillardHotelPlot/photos/a-dallas-deputy-sheriff-named-al-maddox-reported-30-years-later-that-shortly-bef/1161555440686164/
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 14, 2020, 12:39:37 PM
A .38 shot in the gut upwards can kill.

Oh it can kill yeah. So can a shot to the shoulder.

What you don't know is what ever happened to Oswald after he was was loaded up and headed for the hospital.

So they injured him again in the car on the way to the hospital? Did the doctors not notice this? Wheres the evidence for this?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 14, 2020, 05:53:13 PM
So they injured him again in the car on the way to the hospital? Did the doctors not notice this? Wheres the evidence for this?
Who said anything about "injure"? Can anybody not just easily smother someone to death who can hardly breathe anyway? Hypothetically speaking ::)
I've noticed that since you have been here...you post with a battery of questions which you then set about answering yourself.
So as you seem to have all the answers...why ask the questions in the first place unless you are just trolling around anyway?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 16, 2020, 11:00:16 AM
Who said anything about "injure"? Can anybody not just easily smother someone to death who can hardly breathe anyway? Hypothetically speaking ::)
I've noticed that since you have been here...you post with a battery of questions which you then set about answering yourself.
So as you seem to have all the answers...why ask the questions in the first place unless you are just trolling around anyway?

So Oswald was shot in the stomach by Ruby and then murdered in the ambulance by Jim Leavelle on the way to Parkland?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 16, 2020, 02:15:28 PM
So Oswald was shot in the stomach by Ruby and then murdered in the ambulance by Jim Leavelle on the way to Parkland?
Who told you Leavelle was in the ambulance?
These cops might have known who rode with Oswald...
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth185034/
Quote
DALLAS, Nov. 24, 1963 (UPI) - Dr. Malcolm O. Perry said today that accused presidential assassin Lee Harvey Oswald was "lethally injured" by the time he arrived at Parkland Hospital's emergency room. "I could tell he was lethally injured when he came in," Perry said.
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1963/11/24/Physician-says-Oswald-lethally-injured-by-time-he-arrived/8181204553842/
You are chasing your tail.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 17, 2020, 10:08:17 AM
Who told you Leavelle was in the ambulance?
These cops might have known who rode with Oswald...

I find it difficult to decipher these vague insinuations. Are you saying Jim Leavelle was not in the ambulance? There are photos and video footage of him getting into the ambulance. It was broadcast on live TV. Are you suggesting that he got out of the ambulance somewhere between Main St and Parkland?

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth185034/https://www.upi.com/Archives/1963/11/24/Physician-says-Oswald-lethally-injured-by-time-he-arrived/8181204553842/
You are chasing your tail.

Explain. Everyone knows Oswald was lethally injured. So what?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 17, 2020, 02:44:15 PM
  There are photos and video footage of him getting into the ambulance. It was broadcast on live TV. Are you suggesting that he got out of the ambulance somewhere between Main St and Parkland?

Explain. Everyone knows Oswald was lethally injured. So what?
You have posted earlier... that one silly little shot from a .38 should not have been enough to kill him.
I have not seen everything...can you post those clips of Leavelle getting in and riding in the ambulance?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 17, 2020, 03:38:02 PM
  The chances of him killing Oswald with that shot were tiny. 
The first and only hit of it kind. 
Which is not a kill shot as abdominal gunshot wounds have a 90% survival rate.
And again, no one seems to be able to answer, why did he aim for stomach? Organized crime hits don't consist of single shots to the stomach with a .38. Ever. Why not? Because theres a 90% chance of survival.
Yet--- our resident expert on organized crime now expresses no surprise that upon arrival at the hospital Oswald was presumed lethally finished. Will you make up my mind?
OK I found a clip. It almost looks like James Leavelle is still handcuffed to Oswald! How totally bizarre if so. What..they couldn't find the key?
Anyway get it straight that I---1. Did not say Leavelle was not in the ambulance. 2. I did not suggest that Leavelle killed Oswald.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 17, 2020, 04:00:21 PM
Another clip from that--[see link below]
No ...Leavelle is not still cuffed to Oswald. That whole scene speaks of impending doom.
Leavelle did not testify about that ride to Parkland...I guess because he wasn't asked.
 https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/national-international/oswald-arrival-at-parkland_dallas-fort-worth/2132877/
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 17, 2020, 04:12:44 PM
You have posted earlier... that one silly little shot from a .38 should not have been enough to kill him.

No, I said it wasn't enough to guarantee that it will kill him. Which, statistically, it isn't. Not even close.

The most likely outcome, 9 times out of 10, is that the victim survives. Especially given how quickly he would've had medical care. Even more likely, is that the person remains conscious. Theres more than a fair argument to suggest that had Oswald survived, and knowing "they" were trying to kill him, he may have been more likely to blab, because what has he got to lose?

Another possibility, is that in his wounded and disorientated state, post shooting, say semi conscious, he may have said things that he didn't even know he was saying.

If Ruby tripped over his shoelace and not shot Oswald, Oswald may have realised the game was up and confessed to whatever he knew right there in the basement in front of the world.

We just don't know.

However apparently "they" were indeed trying very hard to silence Oswald, so obviously worried he was going to talk at some stage.

Which is exactly why organisations like the mob, the CIA etc don't shoot people in the stomach to silence them. Because its very very very unlikely that it will silence them.

They didn't send in some tubby low level mobster to shoot Bin Laden in the stomach with a handgun. They shot him 3 times in the head.

Sam Giancana. Shot 7 times in the head.

Bugsy Siegel. Shot muliple times with an M1. Twice in the head. 

Jack McGurn. Shot 3 times in the head.

Angelo Bruno. Shotgun in the head.

Joe Masseria. Shot 20 times by 4 assassins.

Etc etc.

But this, the most important silencing in history, is left to one man with a .38. I just can't believe that.

I think Ruby is exactly what people said he was. An unstable hot head.

Leavelle did not testify about that ride to Parkland...I guess because he wasn't asked.

He spoke about it many times.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 17, 2020, 05:56:21 PM
No, I said it wasn't enough to guarantee that it will kill him. 
I think Ruby is exactly what people said he was. An unstable hot head.
There are no guarantees in the killing business.
 And the clip I linked in reply # 62...? They just made that up to shine us on-- is that right?
                                                                                                     Anyone? 
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 17, 2020, 06:47:46 PM
There are no guarantees in the killing business.
 And the clip I linked in reply # 62...? They just made that up to shine us on-- is that right?
                                                                                                     Anyone?

You don't actually believe that Al Maddox story do you!?  ??? 

Wheres the note?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Tonkovich on February 18, 2020, 12:33:00 AM
I'm not claiming anything.

He shot Oswald at point blank range. Effective result.

None of the studies you bring up are specific to point blank range gunshots.

Ted Shields. Your "9 out of 10" is getting old.

Find a study that covers " point blank" range gunshots, in the early 60s.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 18, 2020, 09:29:38 AM
Ted Shields. Your "9 out of 10" is getting old.

Find a study that covers " point blank" range gunshots, in the early 60s.

Why is there one that shows a 9/10 kill rate which instantly renders the victim unconscious?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 18, 2020, 10:04:33 AM
You don't actually believe that Al Maddox story do you!? 
What I don't believe is that Ruby was all broken up about Kennedy and his family.
I don't believe that Ruby just happened to coincidentally stroll down into the police basement and just at the right time ..gun down Oswald.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 18, 2020, 10:40:58 AM
What I don't believe is that Ruby was all broken up about Kennedy and his family.
I don't believe that Ruby just happened to coincidentally stroll down into the police basement and just at the right time ..gun down Oswald.

I can't rectify the Western Union visit in my head. Just doesn't make sense to me that an assassin would be standing patiently in line knowing his target was in the process of being moved within the next couple of minutes. He has no radio, no phone, no means of communication. He spent the morning in bed and time quietly chatted to his neighbour as he left 45 minutes after Oswald was supposed to have been moved. Not in any rush, didn't receive any calls from anyone to tell him Oswald was delayed. His phone records have been combed through.

Also anyone who knew him said he was distraught all weekend. His friends, his sister, his strippers.

The alternative to believing that Ruby just happened to coincidentally stroll down into the police basement is that a stripper from one of his clubs, Western Union and all of the Dallas cops were in on some swerve to make it look like he was just out in that part of town. But he had no control over the queue in Western Union, how many people were there and how long it was going to take.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 18, 2020, 11:42:48 AM
I can't rectify the Western Union visit in my head. Just doesn't make sense to me that an assassin would be standing patiently in line knowing his target was in the process of being moved within the next couple of minutes. He has no radio, no phone, no means of communication. He spent the morning in bed and time quietly chatted to his neighbour as he left 45 minutes after Oswald was supposed to have been moved. Not in any rush, didn't receive any calls from anyone to tell him Oswald was delayed. His phone records have been combed through.

Also anyone who knew him said he was distraught all weekend. His friends, his sister, his strippers.

The alternative to believing that Ruby just happened to coincidentally stroll down into the police basement is that a stripper from one of his clubs, Western Union and all of the Dallas cops were in on some swerve to make it look like he was just out in that part of town. But he had no control over the queue in Western Union, how many people were there and how long it was going to take.
Who told you that Ruby was "waiting patiently in line"? Do you accept the official story --at face value--without question?
Oh... you see no reason why not? That's OK. No harm done.
Of course Ruby was "distraught" but why was he really-- is my question?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 18, 2020, 01:42:18 PM
Who told you that Ruby was "waiting patiently in line"? Do you accept the official story --at face value--without question?

Theres no credible evidence to the contrary.

Doyle Lane who handled the Western Union transfer testified that he just waited in line like everyone else. The phone wasn't used, there was no radio or TV on anywhere which could have alerted Ruby. Ruby had a time stamped receipt. No one else in the queue saw him rush or noticed any unusual behaviour.

Of course Ruby was "distraught" but why was he really-- is my question?

Theres no credible evidence to the contrary. Everyone single person he spoke to said he was distraught, upset, sad.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Tonkovich on February 18, 2020, 04:19:13 PM
Why is there one that shows a 9/10 kill rate which instantly renders the victim unconscious?

Sir, your study, from the 1980s - later time period, reflecting medical advances of 20 years - also does not cover point blank - maybe even contact, since the film of the shooting shows a flash maybe six inches? from Oswalds belly - wounds.
Therefore, that study does not apply to the Oswald gunshot wound situation.
That's all I'm saying.
I would be happy to see more stats on point blank/contact/gsw survival rates; unfortunately, I can't seem to find any.
Also, I will again point out Ruby's lying about his early Friday (5 to 6 p.m.) visit to DPD- sourced from Warren Commission. Why?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 18, 2020, 04:34:12 PM
Sir, your study, from the 1980s - later time period, reflecting medical advances of 20 years - also does not cover point blank - maybe even contact, since the film of the shooting shows a flash maybe six inches? from Oswalds belly - wounds.
Therefore, that study does not apply to the Oswald gunshot wound situation.
That's all I'm saying.

Heres a study from July 1968 through June 1973, 277 abdominal gunshot wounds, the overall fatality of which was 10%.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstract/581966

Since the invention of the gun, the survival rate has been very high. The fact that its point blank range would obviously increase the chance of death but not by an acceptable margin to the point where it would instantly render the victim unconscious, never to wake up.

I would be happy to see more stats on point blank/contact/gsw survival rates; unfortunately, I can't seem to find any.
Also, I will again point out Ruby's lying about his early Friday (5 to 6 p.m.) visit to DPD- sourced from Warren Commission. Why?

Because it shows Sunday was premeditated and thats a guaranteed death sentence.

Ruby didn't think he would do any time in jail until he was properly charged.

Lets go with the conspiracy for a minute - why did nobody take out Ruby after he took out Oswald?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Tonkovich on February 18, 2020, 05:12:39 PM
Heres a study from July 1968 through June 1973, 277 abdominal gunshot wounds, the overall fatality of which was 10%.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstract/581966

Since the invention of the gun, the survival rate has been very high. The fact that its point blank range would obviously increase the chance of death but not by an acceptable margin to the point where it would instantly render the victim unconscious, never to wake up.

Because it shows Sunday was premeditated and thats a guaranteed death sentence.

Ruby didn't think he would do any time in jail until he was properly charged.

Lets go with the conspiracy for a minute - why did nobody take out Ruby after he took out Oswald?
I don't do "conspiracy ".
I'm just looking for facts.
"Ruby didn't think he would do any jail time..".  Not sure how this can be proven?

Facts: Ruby's criminal history and mob connections were downplayed and omitted from the Warren Report.
            Including arrest (but no conviction) for drug running. ( New Mexico in the late'50s)
            Including suspicion of gunrunning to Cuba in the late 50s.
            Including visits to imprisoned gangsters in post Castro Cuba.
           
Now, Ruby may have just been a nutcase, hopped up on diet pills, who decided to be a hero. However, Ruby's history shows his primary motivations in life were fear and greed.

Aside: Harry Olsen  and Ruby is another topic not addressed by the WC.  Why?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Mike Orr on February 18, 2020, 05:29:47 PM
Jack Ruby knew that if he was to kill Oswald , up close , then he was going to be taken down at that moment . With Ruby's ties to the Mafia , he was going to do what he was told to do by the Mob . Too many people try to make Ruby out to just being a small time hood for the mob . The Kennedy's , especially Bobby was going after the mob and of course JFK was going to bring Vietnam to a slow halt which the Military heads did not want . Our Military Upper crust wants to go to war every chance they get ! As crusty as LBJ was , it seems like the weight of our kids dying in Vietnam put too much of a weight on LBJ and I think it took its toll on the President . When Ruby said the only way to get the message out about What happened to JFK in Dallas was to get him to Washington D.C. so he could talk ! I think it was just as dangerous for Ruby in D.C. as well in Dallas . What did Ruby tell Dorothy Killgallen that cost Dorothy her life . Just Coincidental ! I don't think so !
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 18, 2020, 09:18:23 PM
Theres no credible evidence to the contrary.

Doyle Lane who handled the Western Union transfer testified that he just waited in line like everyone else. The phone wasn't used, there was no radio or TV on anywhere which could have alerted Ruby. Ruby had a time stamped receipt. No one else in the queue saw him rush or noticed any unusual behaviour.

Theres no credible evidence to the contrary. Everyone single person he spoke to said he was distraught, upset, sad.
I reviewed that testimony...
Quote
Mr. HUBERT. The first time you saw him, therefore, is when he came up to the counter with a completed--partially completed form for the transmission of money by Western Union?
Mr. LANE. That is the first I had seen him that day.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you don't know how long he was in the office?
Mr. LANE. I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time he came up.
Mr. LANE. I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there a public telephone available to anyone who is in the lobby?
Mr. LANE. Yes, there is.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him use the telephone?
Mr. LANE. I did not.

Quote
Mr. HUBERT. After the first customer left, there was only you and Ruby at the counter?
Mr. LANE Yes.

Mr Shields wrote earlier.....
Quote
Just doesn't make sense to me that an assassin would be standing patiently in line knowing his target was in the process of being moved within the next couple of minutes.
So, no there was no particular 'LINE' that Ruby waited in.
I have suggested before and still do that Jack Ruby was not waiting for Oswald's transfer but rather the transfer was waiting for Ruby.
Did you [Mr Shields] read my thread 'Jack Ruby and Seth Kantor at Parkland'?
 https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2334.0.html
Does it not seem strange that the Warren Commission wound up taking Ruby's word that he was not at Parkland that Friday afternoon over two witnesses who testified that he was? These being people who had no apparent motive to lie.
We must admit that Jack Ruby was a shady character with a very questionable background. Would he have had a reason to lie and would the Commission have had a reason to accept his word?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 19, 2020, 12:29:36 AM
Theres no credible evidence to the contrary.

Doyle Lane who handled the Western Union transfer testified that he just waited in line like everyone else. The phone wasn't used, there was no radio or TV on anywhere which could have alerted Ruby. Ruby had a time stamped receipt. No one else in the queue saw him rush or noticed any unusual behaviour.

When was anyone else in the queue interviewed?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 19, 2020, 03:38:26 AM

Did you [Mr Shields] read my thread 'Jack Ruby and Seth Kantor at Parkland'?
 https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2334.0.html
Does it not seem strange that the Warren Commission wound up taking Ruby's word that he was not at Parkland that Friday afternoon over two witnesses who testified that he was? These being people who had no apparent motive to lie.
We must admit that Jack Ruby was a shady character with a very questionable background. Would he have had a reason to lie and would the Commission have had a reason to accept his word?
I see that you did reply in that thread and believe in the complete truthfulness of Jack Ruby.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 19, 2020, 10:05:28 AM
I reviewed that testimony... 
Mr Shields wrote earlier.....So, no there was no particular 'LINE' that Ruby waited in.

Ruby had no idea how long the people/person in front of him would be. Could've been 1 minute, could've been 10 minutes.

I have suggested before and still do that Jack Ruby was not waiting for Oswald's transfer but rather the transfer was waiting for Ruby.

Theres no evidence whatsoever to support this as even a fringe theory unfortunately. Ruby was in the WU at 11.17 (timestamped). He shot Oswald at 11.21.

Oswald was supposed to be moved at about 10.15am at the latest. Ruby was still at home then and had not even received the phone call from Little Lynn asking for money at that stage.

There was a delay of more than an hour when Chief Postal Inspector Harry Holmes arrived at 10am and to ask Oswald about his use of post office boxes.

Now even if somehow this was part of the plan, Ruby had no control over Oswald then asking for a darker sweater to look better in the TV lights. 5-10 minute delay. If he didn't ask for the sweater, the car would've driven up the ramp and away to jail with Ruby still standing in the Western Union. Or maybe still in his car on the way to the western union.

If Ruby was such a high level mobster, what was he doing taking calls from strippers for 25 dollars?! Who calls mobsters asking for that? Get up, drive downtown and send me money please. Certainly not broke strippers.

Every single person who knew Ruby well said its laughable that he could have been part of a conspiracy because he was so talkative.

Who takes out Ruby? Why wasn't he taken out? Mob style in jail, silently, no patsy. They just..... left him alone?!

Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Zeon Mason on February 19, 2020, 01:01:07 PM
There is no benefit for Ruby to risk himself getting shot dead just to take one shot at Oswald with a bullet not enhanced with cyanide or other chemical to ensure Oswalds death

If Ruby is a CIA asset ,on the other hand ,it’s not implausible this was more of LARP assignment with purpose of deflecting suspicion to the Mafia

It was only necessary for Ruby to get one shot off and hit Oswald in the easiest area = center body to complete this LARP while being filmed

After which Oswald is snuffed out in the ambulance by pillow kinda like the late Chief Justice Scalia may have been (coincidentally thereby creating stalemate SCOTUS  of 4 left and 4 right)

Ruby was not tasked with having to use some poison laced bullet so as to avoid potential discovery by autopsy and its doubtful that Ruby would have to agreed to go that far anyway

 Ruby could have been convinced by CIA that his role was simply an act to serve the country, get a new identity and a “clean” slate and a monetary reward to retire in a witness protection program

Ruby was the 2nd patsy in effect .


Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 19, 2020, 05:22:19 PM
After which Oswald is snuffed out in the ambulance by pillow kinda like the late Chief Justice Scalia may have been (coincidentally thereby creating stalemate SCOTUS  of 4 left and 4 right)

See this is the bit thats a stretch, to say the least. Are we suggesting that Jim Leavelle murdered Oswald in the back of the ambulance?! Or was willing to do so but Ruby got lucky and killed him first?

Ruby was the 2nd patsy in effect .

Where was the 3rd patsy? The one to take out the 2nd patsy?

There is no benefit for Ruby to risk himself getting shot dead just to take one shot at Oswald with a bullet not enhanced with cyanide or other chemical to ensure Oswalds death

To kill JFK, all they would've needed is for one "patriot" who was "willing to give their life for their country" to shoot JFK at Love Field and then the assassin is killed by one of the Secret Service. Easy. "Oh he shot the president so I shot him". Easy. A conspiracy that requires a handful of people.

Look how easy it would've been.

(https://images.bonanzastatic.com/afu/images/2111/7351/postcard_JFK_texas2.jpg)

Actually, at times coming down Main, the car was going so slow, anyone could have jumped into the car and pumped JFKs head full of bullets before any Secret Service had time to react. Why didn't they just do that?

Look how easy it would've been.

(https://i.insider.com/59f10b363e9d257c6d8b471b?width=600&format=jpeg&auto=webp)

Instead we have a conspiracy involving everyone (in Dallas alone) from most of the Dallas police, to the ambulance driver, to the Western Union people, the Paines, Marina, Ruby, the mob, the CIA, the secret service, the coroners, the doctors at Parkland, people planting bullets, removing Mausers and replacing them with Carcanos and so on. Hundreds of people.


Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 19, 2020, 06:04:18 PM
To kill JFK, all they would've needed is for one "patriot" who was "willing to give their life for their country" to shoot JFK at Love Field and then the assassin is killed by one of the Secret Service. Easy.

Good luck finding someone to sign up for that.

Quote
Instead we have a conspiracy involving everyone (in Dallas alone) from most of the Dallas police, to the ambulance driver, to the Western Union people, the Paines, Marina, Ruby, the mob, the CIA, the secret service, the coroners, the doctors at Parkland, people planting bullets, removing Mausers and replacing them with Carcanos and so on. Hundreds of people.

We do?  Says who?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 19, 2020, 11:06:29 PM
...anyone could have jumped into the car and pumped JFKs head full of bullets before any Secret Service had time to react. Why didn't they just do that? Look how easy it would've been. Instead we have a conspiracy involving everyone...
"Why didn't they just do that?" All this reciprocal strawman discourse has been suggested through the years. Why didn't they this...? Why wouldn't they that? Everybody loved Kennedy but Oswald right? Keep telling yourself that.     
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 20, 2020, 09:58:38 AM
Good luck finding someone to sign up for that.

Yet Ruby signed up to kill Oswald? What are the chances he would have been shot? Quite high.

"Why didn't they just do that?" All this reciprocal strawman discourse has been suggested through the years. Why didn't they this...? Why wouldn't they that? Everybody loved Kennedy but Oswald right? Keep telling yourself that.   

I don't even think Oswald really hated Kennedy that much.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 20, 2020, 03:31:34 PM
Yet Ruby signed up to kill Oswald? What are the chances he would have been shot? Quite high.

How are you calculating those odds?  If they wanted to shoot him, they would have.  It's not like there was a shortage of cops in the basement.  It might have had something to do with all the TV cameras being there.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 20, 2020, 05:26:24 PM
How are you calculating those odds?  If they wanted to shoot him, they would have.  It's not like there was a shortage of cops in the basement.  It might have had something to do with all the TV cameras being there.

So in the 60s in Texas there wasn't a high risk of being shot after firing a gun in a police station? With cops standing around with guns? More than a good chance he could've shot a cop too. Ruby had no idea how it was going to play out.

Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 20, 2020, 05:40:07 PM
So in the 60s in Texas there wasn't a high risk of being shot after firing a gun in a police station? With cops standing around with guns?

Do you always answer a question with a question?  I asked you how you were calculating the odds, not to try to shift the burden yet again.

Maybe Jack Ruby just wasn't as good at calculating odds for various things as you like to think you are.
 
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 21, 2020, 12:45:22 AM
I don't even think Oswald really hated Kennedy that much.
Wow! Something we agree on.
Do you always answer a question with a question? 
Usually does.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 21, 2020, 01:16:56 AM
See this is the bit thats a stretch, to say the least. Are we suggesting that Jim Leavelle murdered Oswald in the back of the ambulance?! Or was willing to do so but Ruby got lucky and killed him first?

Where was the 3rd patsy? The one to take out the 2nd patsy?

To kill JFK, all they would've needed is for one "patriot" who was "willing to give their life for their country" to shoot JFK at Love Field and then the assassin is killed by one of the Secret Service. Easy. "Oh he shot the president so I shot him". Easy. A conspiracy that requires a handful of people.

Look how easy it would've been.

(https://images.bonanzastatic.com/afu/images/2111/7351/postcard_JFK_texas2.jpg)

Actually, at times coming down Main, the car was going so slow, anyone could have jumped into the car and pumped JFKs head full of bullets before any Secret Service had time to react. Why didn't they just do that?

Look how easy it would've been.

(https://i.insider.com/59f10b363e9d257c6d8b471b?width=600&format=jpeg&auto=webp)

Instead we have a conspiracy involving everyone (in Dallas alone) from most of the Dallas police, to the ambulance driver, to the Western Union people, the Paines, Marina, Ruby, the mob, the CIA, the secret service, the coroners, the doctors at Parkland, people planting bullets, removing Mausers and replacing them with Carcanos and so on. Hundreds of people.

FFS. The little prick showed us the easiest way.

Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 21, 2020, 09:42:07 AM
Do you always answer a question with a question?  I asked you how you were calculating the odds, not to try to shift the burden yet again.

Maybe Jack Ruby just wasn't as good at calculating odds for various things as you like to think you are.

I didn't calculate anything. I do find common sense tends to be abandoned when it comes to this topic in general though.

As for answering my own questions, no one else answers them!?

Who takes out Ruby? Why was he allowed to live?

How did he know Oswald would ask for a change of clothes?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 21, 2020, 03:26:24 PM
I didn't calculate anything. I do find common sense tends to be abandoned when it comes to this topic in general though.

"Common sense" is what people appeal to when they don't have actual evidence for their claims.

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As for answering my own questions, no one else answers them!?

Who takes out Ruby? Why was he allowed to live?

I don't know.  See how easy that is to admit?

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How did he know Oswald would ask for a change of clothes?

Who said he did?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Ted Shields on February 21, 2020, 03:57:41 PM
"Common sense" is what people appeal to when they don't have actual evidence for their claims.

But we have the evidence. He was in bed when Oswald was supposed to be moved. The only reason he got up and went down was because a stripper rang to wire money. We have evidence he chatted to his neighbor. Not rushing. We have evidence of what time he was in the Western Union. We have phone records showing no calls were made advising him on Oswalds release and he made no calls regarding it. The Western Union had no TV or radio on with this info either. Ruby had no walkie talkie with him. There was no one in the WU office giving him visual signals. He simply had no way of knowing when Oswald was going to be moved.

We have evidence that Pierce drove the decoy car driving up the ramp, which meant Roy Vaughn stepped away from the ramp to direct the car out. Of course its possible I suppose that, Vaughn, knowing Ruby may be armed and willing to shoot Oswald, allowed him access. Or maybe another cop. A sort of spur of the moment nod and the cop was happy to let Ruby down to kill him. But theres no evidence for it.

CTers are the people making the claims. That Ruby was a hitman meant to silence Oswald. Theres no evidence for it and fairly strong evidence to suggest otherwise.

I don't know.  See how easy that is to admit?

So do you believe the plotters were happy to just cut Ruby loose after he silenced Oswald? In the absence of any evidence we can only speculate and it makes no sense that they would silence one mouth only to have them replaced with a bigger mouth.

Who said he did?

The Dallas Police. Most of the people who were in the immediate area. As you well know.
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 21, 2020, 04:37:44 PM
But we have the evidence. He was in bed when Oswald was supposed to be moved. The only reason he got up and went down was because a stripper rang to wire money. We have evidence he chatted to his neighbor. Not rushing. We have evidence of what time he was in the Western Union.

Yes, that's one story.  There's another story that he called the police station at 3:00 threatening to kill Oswald in the basement, and that similar calls were received at the sheriff's office and at the FBI.

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The Dallas Police. Most of the people who were in the immediate area. As you well know.

No, you asked how Ruby knew that Oswald would ask for a change of clothes (if indeed he actually did).  Who said that Ruby knew?
Title: Re: The real Jack Ruby
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 21, 2020, 06:45:15 PM
But we have the evidence.
We have the script story that was released by the Report.
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CTers are the people making the claims. That Ruby was a hitman meant to silence Oswald. Theres no evidence for it and fairly strong evidence to suggest otherwise.
Nonsense. The word 'evidence' is being overused-reused- & abused enough. Ruby was the obvious killer and Oswald was consequently most definitely silenced....because that is what happened. 
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To suggest otherwise
What does that mean? That his gun fell out of Ruby's suit on the pavement and accidentally fired-- shooting Oswald in the belly. He didn't really mean to?
From the Report---Five reporters testified ....supporting the POSSIBILITY that Ruby was at the police station the day after the assassination...another reporter stated that Ruby gave him a business card...still another stated that he even saw Ruby going into Henry Wade's city office ---However, the Commission could "reach no firm conclusion" that Jack Ruby was at the police station that Saturday afternoon. Just like Parkland...the Commission accepted Ruby's claim that he was not at City Hall that afternoon and no police had reported seeing him [no surprise there]
The Warren Commission--- promising to leave 'no stone unturned'---- turned over some stones they had rather not have--- and turned them back over just as quickly.