JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Tom Scully on January 07, 2020, 04:42:09 PM
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There is a trend lately in this and the two forums named in the title of this thread to a narrower emphasis, (example: obsession with positioning of those present at TSBD and multiple Lee Harvey and Marguerite Oswalds, and historical to contemporary opinion on "deep state" meaning and relevance, as well as less and less posting activity.
DPF (Deep Politics Forum) has lately been averaging less than one new post per day, across the entire forum. Ed Forum thread contributors, many of them recently admitted, seem to be engaged in reinventing the wheel, initiating new threads on well covered and documented matters more competently presented by simply searching out and adding new comments to existing threads.
Poorly supported opinions and details often go unchallenged, and worse, are assumed reliable and then expanded on in subsequent posts.
Misleading or inaccurate posted content on the Ed Forum run rampant, spearheaded lately by Jim DiEugenio, a trio of other diehard deplorables, the usual from Armstrong apostle Jim Hargrove, and a ceaseless stream of links posted by Douglas Caddy.
My hope in starting this thread is to provide some balance to offset what I regard as a trend discouraging readers seeking to become better informed, especially those who follow threads of this forum and the two others I've mentioned.
I expect the TSBD obsessed will attempt to make this thread about them and their image interpretations. Despite this, I think it would be useful here to provide a running commentary of the informed vs uninformed, prominent posting activity of the other two forums, hopefully without dwelling on the personalities or policies prominent on the other forums, but rather on what seems useful vs what seems counter productive.
As always, informing readers in a sincere and well documented manner should be the primary purpose of all who choose to contribute. Verifiable facts matter, especially considering our current dysfunctional "internet age" affected, political / societal climate.
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...engaged in reinventing the wheel, initiating new threads on well covered and documented matters more competently presented by simply searching out and adding new comments to existing threads.
That is what happens here. Instead of reviving what has already been introduced...folks just re-start the same old hash. Attempts to plow previously unearthed ground just results in running over stony bickering and rubble.
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Misleading or inaccurate posted content on the Ed Forum run rampant, spearheaded lately by Jim DiEugenio, a trio of other diehard deplorables, ....
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More idiocy.... Robert Wheeler completely overlooks what happened at Flynn's initial sentencing hearing, in December, 2018. Judge Sullivan obviously had read classified material provided by the DOJ, and Flynn reacting to Judge Sullivan's comments by hiring Fox News "nut job" Sidney Powell to defend him....
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/12/19/in-defense-of-emmet-sullivan-van-grack-suggested-mueller-did-review-whether-flynns-behavior-amounted-to-treason/
IN DEFENSE OF EMMET SULLIVAN: VAN GRACK SUGGESTED MUELLER DID REVIEW WHETHER FLYNN’S BEHAVIOR AMOUNTED TO TREASON
December 19, 2018 - by emptywheel
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpFlynnSullivanTreason.jpg)
.....
Subsequently, Mike Flynn fired his able defense lawyers and hired unhinged FoX News talking head, Sidney Powell to bombard the court with deliberately false, Trumpified, CT nonsense accusations against prosecutors, along the lines of Trump speak, "Obama tapped my wires," relegated to the ash heap by last month's release of the Horowitz report....
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26105-mark-zaid-jfk-and-trump/page/74/?tab=comments#comment-412374
Robert Wheeler - January 7, 2020
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So, Mueller throws the book at Flynn.
The pro Trump Twittersphere screams "witch hunt" against Flynn for 3 years.
Mueller recommends no Jail.
Now the prosecution is looking for Jail.
This is a good thing.
What do the "experts" think?
Here is why....
......
https://www.emptywheel.net/2020/01/07/the-bigger-threat-for-flynn-than-six-months-in-prison-the-counterintelligence-language/
THE BIGGER THREAT FOR FLYNN THAN SIX MONTHS IN PRISON: THE COUNTERINTELLIGENCE LANGUAGE
January 7, 2020 - by emptywheel
.....
......But that may not be the most worrisome stuff in this memo, particularly given Robert Mueller’s statement,
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/transcript-of-robert-s-mueller-iiis-testimony-before-the-house-intelligence-committee/2019/07/24/f424acf0-ad97-11e9-a0c9-6d2d7818f3da_story.html
in July, that the FBI continued to investigate aspects of Flynn’s false statements about Russia.
KRISHNAMOORTHI: Since it was outside the purview of your investigation your report did not address how Flynn’s false statements could pose a national security risk because the Russians knew the falsity of those statements, right?
MUELLER: I cannot get in to that, mainly because there are many elements of the FBI that are looking at different aspects of that issue.
KRISHNAMOORTHI: Currently?
MUELLER: Currently.....
....
The sentencing memo argues that Flynn’s lies made it harder for the FBI to protect the country from Russia’s efforts to undermine our democracy and speaks obliquely in terms of benefit and monetization. These oblique references to the counterintelligence investigation ought to be of far more concern to Flynn than the prospect of six months in prison.
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There is a trend lately in this and the two forums named in the title of this thread to a narrower emphasis, (example: obsession with positioning of those present at TSBD and multiple Lee Harvey and Marguerite Oswalds, and historical to contemporary opinion on "deep state" meaning and relevance, as well as less and less posting activity.
DPF (Deep Politics Forum) has lately been averaging less than one new post per day, across the entire forum. Ed Forum thread contributors, many of them recently admitted, seem to be engaged in reinventing the wheel, initiating new threads on well covered and documented matters more competently presented by simply searching out and adding new comments to existing threads.
Poorly supported opinions and details often go unchallenged, and worse, are assumed reliable and then expanded on in subsequent posts.
Misleading or inaccurate posted content on the Ed Forum run rampant, spearheaded lately by Jim DiEugenio, a trio of other diehard deplorables, the usual from Armstrong apostle Jim Hargrove, and a ceaseless stream of links posted by Douglas Caddy.
My hope in starting this thread is to provide some balance to offset what I regard as a trend discouraging readers seeking to become better informed, especially those who follow threads of this forum and the two others I've mentioned.
I expect the TSBD obsessed will attempt to make this thread about them and their image interpretations. Despite this, I think it would be useful here to provide a running commentary of the informed vs uninformed, prominent posting activity of the other two forums, hopefully without dwelling on the personalities or policies prominent on the other forums, but rather on what seems useful vs what seems counter productive.
As always, informing readers in a sincere and well documented manner should be the primary purpose of all who choose to contribute. Verifiable facts matter, especially considering our current dysfunctional "internet age" affected, political / societal climate.
DiEugenio is working with Oliver Stone on Stone’s latest JFK film. I understand JD may be the lead writer. God forbid. My encounters throughout the years with DiEugenio can best be described as an interaction between a deeply flawed, dark, paranoid individual and Trump supporter who never heard a JFK conspiracy he didn’t accept and myself, an Oswald was the shooter guy and the possibility of a conspiracy might exist yet remains unproven. There is never rational discord with JD. He remains uncivil to this day.
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My encounters throughout the years with DiEugenio can best be described as an interaction between a deeply flawed, dark, paranoid individual and Trump supporter who never heard a JFK conspiracy he didn’t accept and myself, an Oswald was the shooter guy and the possibility of a conspiracy might exist yet remains unproven. There is never rational discord with JD. He remains uncivil to this day.
You're both off more than you know.
Paul May never provides any links-- I will do so.....
https://variety.com/2019/tv/global/agc-television-picks-up-worldwide-oliver-stones-jfk-destiny-betrayed-1203368818/
Scroll down to the comments below and you will find those of ours truly :)
I am beginning to think that Tom Scully is engaged somehow with Ancestry.com. That or a step-grandmother's second cousin's sister in law's third husband's nieces favorite poet is involved in some way :D
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Jerry, I was trying to communicate with "Ollie," hoping to warn him to reconsider collaborating with "Jim Di". I would be too uncomfortable to go to Dallas in last (or any) November because I have no friends attending, or any friends at all, except perhaps Mark Oblazney. IME, the more you know, the less certain you can afford to be, except about becoming increasingly cynical and disappointed.
I've been concerned since before the 2008 election that Obama is actually "deep state". If Obama's pick (the rest of the list at this link only reinforces my hunch about Obama) David Boren, didn't hire this 9/11 associated spook at the University David Boren headed, who did? BTW, I've never mixed 9/11 and Assassination of JFK in any post prior to this one. It always seemed counterproductive, but this is about names and verifiable facts associated with them, as was my comment at the link you posted (and seemed to make assumptions about me, from...) so what the hell, why not make an exception?
https://www.emptywheel.net/2011/09/28/two-of-obamas-independent-intelligence-advisors-have-supported-oversight-in-past-why-not-now/
TWO OF OBAMA’S INDEPENDENT INTELLIGENCE ADVISORS HAVE SUPPORTED OVERSIGHT IN PAST; WHY NOT NOW?
September 28, 2011 - by emptywheel
......But there’s something else weird about Obama’s stone-walling here. Here’s the list of people Obama has appointed to the President’s Intelligence Advisory Board, the board that oversees the IOB.
Chuck Hagel (10/28/2009), David Boren (10/28/2009), Roel Campos (12/23/2009), Lee Hamilton (12/23/2009)....
Why am I sharing this Obama speculation with you, Jerry? Maybe it is because I find your flirtation with the right in Paul May's Trump-CT thread incompatible
with your CT posture in other threads you post in on this forum.
http://spitfirelist.com/for-the-record/ftr-489-2nd-interview-with-robert-parry/
FTR #489 2nd Interview with Robert Parry - Recorded December 5, 2004
Highlighting Robert Parry’s new book Secrecy and Privilege: The Rise of the Bush Dynasty from Watergate to Iraq, the program focuses on a series of illegal and treasonous Republican gambits conducted during Presidential election years..... The program then examines the evolution of the politicization of intelligence, from the elder George Bush’s importation of Team B to magnify and exaggerate the CIA’s estimates of Soviet strength, through William Casey’s thorough corruption of the CIA’s analytical division, and on to George Tenet’s role in heading off attempts to block Robert Gates’s nomination to head the CIA. An aide to Senator David Boren, Tenet eventually became head of the CIA himself and continued the trend of politicization of intelligence.....
http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=david_edger_1
May 1997: David Edger Is New CIA Chief of Station in Germany ....
....
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/David_L._Boren
David Lyle Boren, born April 21, 1941, in Washington, D.C., has served as president of the University of Oklahoma since 1994. Boren is the former United States Senator from Oklahoma from 1979-1994, and was the author of the National Security Education Act of 1991, which established the National Security Education Program (NSEP). The Academy for Educational Development (AED) offers the David L. Boren Graduate Fellowships under NSEP.[1]...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Berg
Nicholas Evan Berg (April 2, 1978 – May 7, 2004) was an American freelance radio-tower repairman[1] who went to Iraq after the United States' invasion of Iraq. He was Jewish.[2] .....Encounter with Zacarias Moussaoui
On May 14, 2004, it was revealed that Nick Berg had been investigated during the U.S. government's investigation of Zacarias Moussaoui, a 9/11 conspirator. Berg's email address had been used by Moussaoui prior to the September 11, 2001, attacks. According to Berg's father, Nick Berg had a chance encounter with an acquaintance of Moussaoui on a bus in Norman, Oklahoma. This person had asked to borrow Berg's laptop computer to send an email. Berg gave the details of his own email account and password, which were later used by Moussaoui. The FBI found that Berg had no direct terrorism connections or direct link with Moussaoui.[19]....
....Former U.S. Senator David Boren, now the president of the University of Oklahoma, is called the mentor of CIA director George J. Tenet. Boren is also interesting because during 2001 Zacarias Moussaoui spent six months in Norman, home of OU, and was taking flight lessons there before he moved to Minneapolis, where he was arrested and later charged with terrorism. He was also receiving wire transfers from the Hamburg Al Qaeda cell while in Norman. Additionally, in August 2001 Boren arranged for CIA officer David Edger to have a visiting professor appointment at OU. Edger had earlier been in charge of CIA surveillance over the Hamburg Al Qaeda cell, which included lead 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta....
https://www.salon.com/2004/06/03/tenet_boren/
Tenet's 9/11 morning | Salon.com
Jun 4, 2004 - 11, 2001, CIA Director George Tenet had breakfast with former Sen. David Boren (D.-Oklahoma) at the St. Regis Hotel in Washington...
...What Tenet didn't tell Boren, Woodward said, is that the CIA had intercepted a flurry of communications over the summer of 2001 suggesting that something "spectacular" was imminent.
As the two men talked, Tenet's security guards approached their table and told Tenet that there was a "serious problem" -- the World Trade Center had been attacked....
...But before Tenet left the table, Woodward said he made one more comment -- a reference to Zacarias Moussaoui -- that suggested that the CIA Director's prescience may have fallen short when it came to preventing the attacks. "I wonder," Tenet said, "if it has anything to do with this guy taking pilot training."...
It would not have mattered if I had gone to Dallas to try to talk to Oliver Stone. The picture of him there in an embrace with Judyth, allegedly saying, "I believe you," influences me to think I have no facts that would have any influence on him.
The details I posted in the comments section at the link you posted, the ones I hoped Oliver Stone might read (before his Dallas encounter with Judyth) were found by me in an entirely open way. I posted them as I was discovering them, under the watchful eyes of both Dr. John McAdams and Photon, aka Paul May, according to DiEugenio. Jerry, I find it interesting your reaction to my research details is so similar to Dr. McAdams. BTW, Ancestry.com was not a source I used to find anything about Garrison or the other names I posted in the comment at the link you posted, or in the image below. DiEugenio was about as appreciative as you and Dr. McAdams. At least it became clearer to me why I have difficulty making and keeping friends of the CT or LN communities....
https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?17025-The-Crimes-of-Quillette&p=126009#post126009
Tom Scully - 09-01-2019, 08:51 PM
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....Well, enough time has passed now to reliably observe that Jim did a "drive by" on me. (Imagine how different this might have gone down if he did not like me....)
Isn't another way of saying what Jim conveyed to me?
Tom, I like you personally.... unfortunately you are stupid enough to fall for the pronouncements of Max Holland's lackey, Donald Carpenter...
.....
https://jfkfacts.org/who-was-the-only-man-to-ever-face-legal-charges-in-jfks-assassination/#comment-856848
(http://jfkforum.com/images/BaldwinGarrisonReactionMcAdams.jpg)
I was comments editor at that time, and I had access to the logged IPs of both Photon and Paul May. I shared with readers that DiEugenio was mistaken. Photon's IP location is conveniently close to CIA HQ, Paul posted with a different IP, associated with a location many hundreds of miles from Northern Virginia.
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You're both off more than you know.
Paul May never provides any links-- I will do so.....
https://variety.com/2019/tv/global/agc-television-picks-up-worldwide-oliver-stones-jfk-destiny-betrayed-1203368818/
Scroll down to the comments below and you will find those of ours truly :)
I am beginning to think that Tom Scully is engaged somehow with Ancestry.com. That or a step-grandmother's second cousin's sister in law's third husband's nieces favorite poet is involved in some way :D
I’m expressing an opinion or giving an insight. Why would I need a link?
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I’m expressing an opinion or giving an insight. Why would I need a link?
Insight---Enlightening thought...the capacity to gain an accurate and deep intuitive understanding of a person or thing.
Where is this...'insight'?
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You're both off more than you know.
Paul May never provides any links-- I will do so.....
https://variety.com/2019/tv/global/agc-television-picks-up-worldwide-oliver-stones-jfk-destiny-betrayed-1203368818/
Scroll down to the comments below and you will find those of ours truly :)
I am beginning to think that Tom Scully is engaged somehow with Ancestry.com. That or a step-grandmother's second cousin's sister in law's third husband's nieces favorite poet is involved in some way :D
I replied to your post in as transparent and sincere a manner as any reasonable person who posted what you posted could possibly expect.
Paul May did, as well.
Ironic that you are posting in a thread about "keeping it real," setting the record straight, responsive to verifiable facts. No more BS, please. It is reasonable, considering your contributions to this thread, to point out to readers; Paul is posting sincerely expecting to inform them.
You've ignored my reply, and your reply to Paul is unreasonable. Why not trifle with the readily available, dishonest game players, who post in these threads, instead of with Paul and I ?
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Ed Ledoux, a researcher who I have cooperated with in the past and respect the determination and eye for detail of, is presenting today on a longtime strong suspicion of his and of other researchers.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26290-the-beckley-bunch/
The Beckley Bunch - By Ed LeDoux, January 15, 2020
......
Gladys and her employee, Earline, lied, "O.H. Lee" was not LHO ....
I found this in just a couple of minutes. How much other forensic proof or physical evidence was presented to support that Oswald roomed at the critical time, at 1026 N. Beckley? There are also interrogation notes allegedly quoting Oswald admitting he roomed at that location, as well as alleged admission by him under interrogation that he provided the name, O.H. Lee upon registering there as a roomer.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9945&relPageId=312
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Today, Jim DiEugenio posrted twice anout "surfer dude," Chris Butler's puppet " Does Jim "surf" for Butler's cult, too?
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26105-mark-zaid-jfk-and-trump/page/76/?tab=comments#comment-413040
Jim DiEugenio
Posted 2 hours ago
https://www.tulsi2020.com/press/2020-01-22-rep-tulsi-gabbard-files-lawsuit-against-hillary-clinton-over-defamatory-statements
This is great!
Jim wasn't done. An hour after promoting a "nothing burger" link to a page from ChrisButler2020 campaign, fronted by Ms. Gabbard, :
Tulsi Gabbard, virulent anti-gay "peace maker," just happenred to select back to back spouses from the same cult of about 1,000 she was raised inside of.
Her current spouse's mother is a Butler cultist who manages her district congressional office in Hawaii.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26105-mark-zaid-jfk-and-trump/page/77/?tab=comments#comment-413052
Jim DiEugenio
Posted 1 hour ago (on January 22, 2020)
BTW, I hope she doesn't settle. I hope it goes to trial.
I would love to hear HRC's defense for calling her a Russian asset.
"Mrs. Clinton does anyone who advocates for better relations with Russia, or was against the CIA operation to overthrow Assad, would that person--be it Oliver Stone-- be a Russian asset?"
Words fail me... Jim should co-host a show on Fox News with Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (Chris Butler party- HI).
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/11/06/what-does-tulsi-gabbard-believe
What Does Tulsi Gabbard Believe? | The New Yorker
Nov 6, 2017 - Kelefa Sanneh on Tulsi Gabbard, a Democratic representative from ... Reed had previously referred to Butler as his “spiritual adviser,” but he ...
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tulsi-gabbard-krishna-cult-rumors_n_6879588?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAACAgxzQ81m1sR-WBary
Tulsi Gabbard Still Dogged By Krishna Cult Rumors | HuffPost
Mar 16, 2015 - Tulsi Gabbard, now a rising star in the Democratic Party, was a ... him and asked about his family's ties to a guru named Chris Butler, aka Jagad
http://www.honolulumagazine.com/Honolulu-Magazine/August-2004/Who-is-Mike-Gabbard/
Who is Mike Gabbard? - Honolulu Magazine - August 2004 ...
Aug 1, 2004 - It's hard not to like Mike Gabbard, once you meet the guy. ... A controversial figure himself, Reed has acknowledged Butler as his “spiritual ...
http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/ID/12083/
Wednesday, March 05, 2014
Tulsi Gabbard Office Manager tied to Chris Butler Cult ...
Mar 5, 2014 - Cults are known for their ability to draw in devotees and make them worship the leader. In a recent poll, Tulsi Gabbard's popularity was t...
http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/ID/14721/Tulsi-Gabbard-Hires-Cult-Associate-as-Chief-of-Staff.aspx
Tulsi Gabbard Hires Cult Associate as Chief of Staff >
Feb 25, 2015 - Tulsi Gabbard has quietly hired an identified associate of the Chris Butler Cult ... 2014: Tulsi Gabbard Office Manager tied to Chris Butler Cult.
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Today, Jim DiEugenio posrted twice anout "surfer dude," Chris Butler's puppet " Does Jim "surf" for Butler's cult, too?
Jim wasn't done. An hour after promoting a "nothing burger" link to a page from ChrisButler2020 campaign, fronted by Ms. Gabbard, :
Tulsi Gabbard, virulent anti-gay "peace maker," just happenred to select back to back spouses from the same cult of about 1,000 she was raised inside of.
Her current spouse's mother is a Butler cultist who manages her district congressional office in Hawaii.
Words fail me... Jim should co-host a show on Fox News with Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (Chris Butler party- HI).
Rick Ross had it right, Tom. Go to culteducation.com and see the PrayerDude-length thread about SurferDude and his lackey Tulsi. Beyond the pale.
Oh, bytheway, just finished watching 'Wild Wild Country' on Netflix........ dang. Butler had nothing on this dude, man. And Baghwan's inner circle 'offed' him, to boot. Big B kinda reminds me of Big T...... don'tcha think?
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Rick Ross had it right, Tom. Go to culteducation.com and see the PrayerDude-length thread about SurferDude and his lackey Tulsi. Beyond the pale.
Oh, bytheway, just finished watching 'Wild Wild Country' on Netflix........ dang. Butler had nothing on this dude, man. And Baghwan's inner circle 'offed' him, to boot. Big B kinda reminds me of Big T...... don'tcha think?
Speaking of conspiracies, have you seen the cartoon where Kobe crashed his helicopter before it really happened......... Illuminati? Dang. I wonder if Tulsi shall, well...... nevermind+
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At least over on the Ed Forum... agree/disagree ---they seem to stay on the topic that is posted :-\
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Just another example of why there is so little, older, accurate original research, as well as why more recent original, verifiable research is usually ignored. Most "know what they know"....
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23099-who-was-jack-ruby/page/19/?tab=comments#comment-417193
Ron Bulman
3,227 posts
Posted 3 hours ago - March 26, 2020
I know there's an old thread or two or three about Rose (Cheramie) on the forum I should probably look up but she relates to Ruby as she was a former stripper for him if nothing else.
First, I just read most of H. P. Albarelli's book A Secret Order a couple of months ago. Until then I never realized Rose was originally from Houston or that she was a police informant there. That she left town shortly after the honest, dedicated vice cop she informed to was suicided when his investigations got too close to corrupt cops re selling confiscated drugs.
Then I came across a particularly interesting bit to me in Gary Shaw's article on Rose in the latest Garrison. I'm pretty sure I had read that her death certificate said DOA, but that for some reason that had been questioned. I don't remember reading "her hospital records detailed eight hours of medical treatment". I had also read something about "the possibility of a gunshot wound in the head." I did not realize this also comes from those hospital records. I believe I also had read that "the death certificate denotes an autopsy was done... It had disappeared, either lost or destroyed." How convenient. Shot in the head. Left in the road near her luggage to be run over. Observed by a guy in a parked car who takes off when the guy who runs over her stops.
Rose predicted the assassination to Lt. Fruge, more than one doctor, multiple nurses before and as it happened. Yet when Fruge called the Dallas Police Department they had "no interest" in her story. They didn't want to touch her with at ten foot pole. This has for many years been for me One of the many Rosetta Stones. Right up there with the Magic, Single, Pristine bullet.
https://jfkfacts.org/comment-of-the-week-10/
December 29, 2015 Tom S.
Editor’s note:
An image of Marcades’s death certificate.:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K3X5-R3F
(https://i0.wp.com/lh3.googleusercontent.com/-uVGAVMPaLwQ/VoMIlZr-7KI/AAAAAAAACVM/UNd63kHlf48/s512-Ic42/MarcadesUpshur1965.jpg?w=530&ssl=1)
https://jfkfacts.org/comment-of-the-week-10/#comment-843927
Tom S. December 29, 2015 at 7:57 pm
To be clear, Willy, Ronnie Wayne is quoting Richard Beltzer’s book. Beltzer is quoting :
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/cheramie.txt
…..Finally, it should be noted that Cheramie’s hospital
records state that in addition to her other injuries, she had suffered a
“deep punctate stellate wound above her right forehead.” 23
23) J Gary Shaw, “Case Closed” or Posner’s Pompous & Presumtuous
Postulations, Dateline Dallas, Nov 1993 pp. 12.
As far as I have determined, and I would appreciate reading a comment from a better informed submitter,
J Gary Shaw has never furnished any evidence supporting his 1993 description of the contents of hospital records describing a head wound similar to a bullet wound.
All I could present was an image of Marcades’s death certificate. I chose this topic because I wonder what either “community” requires in the way of actual evidence to base assumptions on.
What impresses Jfkfacts.org commenters? Why? How is your approach to this research similar or different from buying an expensive item
on Ebay or Craigslist, or a home or a used car?
https://jfkfacts.org/comment-of-the-week-10/#comment-843937
Tom S. December 29, 2015 at 8:51 pm
“Autopsy performed” box on right lower middle of death cert. image is checked “yes”.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/cheramie.txt
RAMBLING ROSE
by Chris Mills* 22 August, 1996
….Punctate stellate wound
The cause of death was “Traumatic head wound with subdural &
subarachnoid & Petechial Hemorrage to the brain caused by being struck
by auto”.20 There was an autopsy performed but, unfortunately, the
hospital is now unable to locate these records……
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/11282003/
Thursday, September 9, 1965
Woman Lying On Highway Fatally Hurt An unusual accident on Highway 155 took the life o: a Duncanville woman and increased the traffic death total for Upshur County to 18 so far this year, 16 oi them on rural highways, and two inside the Gilmer city limits. Latest victim was identified as Melba Christine Youngblood, 41, who was fatally injured when struck by a car as she was lying on Highway 155 at the roadside park one and one-half miles north of Big Sandy. A sister made the identification and told officers she had called her the night before to say she was going to hitch hike to New Orleans and had a ride with three sailors. The woman was struck by a car driven by Jerry Don Moore, 23, of Tyler. He was driving on Highway 155 about 2:15 a.m. Saturday when the accident occurred. Moore said he saw some luggage on the highway and that as he dodged it he ran over her where she was lying in the road. He was absolved of any blame in the accident. Moore picked the woman up and took her to Hawkins to a doctor. An ambulance was called and she was transferred to a Gladewater hospital where she died about 10:30 Saturday morning. She never regained consciousness after she was brought to the hospital. She carried no identification other than the letters found in her luggage.
........
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As evidenced by the numerical decline in postings on virtually all on line JFK sites, one has to ask why. 10-15 years ago I was an avid, ardent LN poster. I rarely post any longer. Simple explanation for me is, why oh why must be debate the very same arguments day after day, year after year. What’s accomplished? For so many years many of us that researched the case waited for NARA to release the “smoking gun”. There was/is no smoking gun. What’s left to debate? The evidence hasn’t changed one iota in 56 years despite the efforts, distortions and outright lies of DiEugenio and his ilk.
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As evidenced by the numerical decline in postings on virtually all on line JFK sites, one has to ask why. 10-15 years ago I was an avid, ardent LN poster. I rarely post any longer. Simple explanation for me is, why oh why must be debate the very same arguments day after day, year after year. What’s accomplished? For so many years many of us that researched the case waited for NARA to release the “smoking gun”. There was/is no smoking gun. What’s left to debate? The evidence hasn’t changed one iota in 56 years despite the efforts, distortions and outright lies of DiEugenio and his ilk.
:) a sad surrender, neither side can prove.
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:) a sad surrender, neither side can prove.
We disagree. For the majority of historians it has been proven, and was in 1964. The conspiracy side however has not changed nor will it. Their mantra is and remains “we cannot prove conspiracy because the conspirators won’t let us.” I personally have stated numerous times on this site and other sites over the years, Oswald and only Oswald shot and killed JFK to the exclusion of anybody else. However, we don’t know and likely never will whether some individual or organization was pulling his strings. Is it possible? Of course it’s possible. Can it be proven? No, it cannot be.
-
We disagree. For the majority of historians it has been proven, and was in 1964. The conspiracy side however has not changed nor will it. Their mantra is and remains “we cannot prove conspiracy because the conspirators won’t let us.” I personally have stated numerous times on this site and other sites over the years, Oswald and only Oswald shot and killed JFK to the exclusion of anybody else. However, we don’t know and likely never will whether some individual or organization was pulling his strings. Is it possible? Of course it’s possible. Can it be proven? No, it cannot be.
Time is the enemy of conspiracies because over time the conspiracy is exposed, deliberately or by accident. People talk, documents are found, evidence discovered.
But time is also the enemy of conspiracy theories too. Because over time, despite efforts to find the conspiracy, none is found. People who should have talked never do. Documents that should indicate something don't. Evidence that should be discovered isn't. Time reveals the emptiness behind a conspiracy theory just as much as it reveals any actual conspiracy.
We've had more than half a century of investigations - directly and indirectly into this event. It's the most studied crime in American if not world history. Multiple government investigations, news media, investigative reporters, historians, "citizen" journalists. On and on and on. And nothing of any substance has been found.
It's not there. Oswald shot JFK. Maybe he had some help. Maybe (again) he was used, or manipulated. Maybe. But after all of these years that will never be proven. Whoever may have worked with him or used him - and it had to be a small "c" type conspiracy - is long dead.
If someone wants to or needs to use this tragedy to go after the secret "they" - the CIA, the government, the secret fascist cabal running the country - that that person believes needs to be exposed then please stop. Stop using this to go after your own monsters that you've created. They didn't kill JFK. One sad misfit did.
-
We disagree. For the majority of historians it has been proven, and was in 1964. The conspiracy side however has not changed nor will it. Their mantra is and remains “we cannot prove conspiracy because the conspirators won’t let us.” I personally have stated numerous times on this site and other sites over the years, Oswald and only Oswald shot and killed JFK to the exclusion of anybody else. However, we don’t know and likely never will whether some individual or organization was pulling his strings. Is it possible? Of course it’s possible. Can it be proven? No, it cannot be.
Time is the enemy of conspiracies because over time the conspiracy is exposed, deliberately or by accident. People talk, documents are found, evidence discovered.
But time is also the enemy of conspiracy theories too. Because over time, despite efforts to find the conspiracy, none is found. People who should have talked never do. Documents that should indicate something don't. Evidence that should be discovered isn't. Time reveals the emptiness behind a conspiracy theory just as much as it reveals any actual conspiracy.
We've had more than half a century of investigations - directly and indirectly into this event. It's the most studied crime in American if not world history. Multiple government investigations, news media, investigative reporters, historians, "citizen" journalists. On and on and on. And nothing of any substance has been found.
It's not there. Oswald shot JFK. Maybe he had some help. Maybe (again) he was used, or manipulated. Maybe. But after all of these years that will never be proven. Whoever may have worked with him or used him - and it had to be a small "c" type conspiracy - is long dead.
If someone wants to or needs to use this tragedy to go after the secret "they" - the CIA, the government, the secret fascist cabal running the country - that that person believes needs to be exposed then please stop. Stop using this to go after your own monsters that you've created. They didn't kill JFK. One sad misfit did.
Paul, I have been surprised since I got a more complete impression of your thinking and approach, beginning when I was comments editor @JFKfacts, 2015 - 2016, than I had prior to that, from what I read in your Ed Forum posts, that you seem in such close agreement now, with Steve.
I do not understand why anyone would be this self-limiting and not recognize it as a severe handicap, if fact finding is the goal. If you start with a strong LN or CT bias, you'll build in a tendency to avoid finding what you don't want to know because you are actually about validating your biases.
Years of LNs observing the erroneous assumptions driven anger of CTs must account for a portion of LN cynicism and frustration. I disagree that they are all worked up about nothing, but there is the problem of them knowing what they know that is not as sinister or corrupt as they believe it all is.
Example: Three things triggered this reaction, which I found very telling. It exposes an ideology resembling a religion.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/22439-yes-postal-money-orders-do-require-bank-endorsements/?do=findComment&comment=319024
Posted November 19, 2015 (edited)
I will repeat this for your benefit, I think everyone else got it:
Now, my general point is this: how can an attorney isolate one part of this transaction and say its valid, based on that one point. When, in fact, everything about it is dubious. By doing so, is he not then guilty of doing the thing he says is true about the people he criticizes?
To make a point of comparison: its like saying Humes' beveling idea overrides all the problems with the autopsy.
Yeah, sure it does.
Edited November 19, 2015 by James DiEugenio
I think LNs have a similar block, if a thing as condensed as the WC Report can also be the foundation of a "circle the wagons" ideology.
The WC Report, just as its opposite CT pushback, is a sum of its parts. DiEugenio believes his ideology is all or nothing.
I read a question I thought was interesting and original. I try not to limit myself, mainly by staying indifferent about Oswald's guilt or innocence or if he was an LN or not, to the extent I can discipline myself to.
A poster using the name Brian Castle was briefly active on several forum in 2015 - 2016. He asked a question about the meaning of the key punch holes in the postal money order deposited by Klein's Sporting Goods.
Author Jean Davison attempted to use the key punch holes to support a conclusion the holes proved the money order was bank processed routinely and validated the authenticity of the payment to Klein's for the Assassination rifle mail order.
I was surprised such a simple method of validation could have been overlooked and instead, many embraced John Armstrong's objections, serial number sequence discrepancy, lack of bank endorsement stamping on the reverse side, and the money order not found in Kansas City, but instead located in Washington, DC serving as the main points of a sub-belief system of DiEugenio outlined ideology.
I found, ironically, that Jean Davison's observation about the key punch holes was correct if the Klein's money order had been the older version that was replaced in Dallas just weeks before Oswald was alleged to have purchased the money order at the Dallas Post Office. The Post Office Dept. had paid the Federal Reserve $650,000 annually to provide keypunch operators to manually process cashed money orders with punches representing the dollars and cents displayed on the face of each money order. A primary reason for the revised money order cashed by Klein's was to eliminate that cost and the manual fraud check operations of the
Kansas City Postal Money Order Center, which could then be eliminated after most outstanding old method money orders were cashed, after the gradual, 1963 roll ouy of the new style, in one postal region after another!
I did some digging, had some luck, and presented proof countering John Armstrong's long embraced objections. Lance Payette became interested and solved the mystery of the meaning of the blue inked string of
numbers displayed on the postal money order's face. Just as Jim DiEugenio left himself with no method to consider these new facts and adjust his views, Jim Hargrove's reaction, speaking for John Armstrong, was even more telling. He rewrote Armstrong's web presentation challenging the money order, even incorporating the article image below, taking all credit for presenting a more accurate account to readers.:
My critique of Armstrong's long held claims on his web page, considering the new discoveries.:
Rebutting John Armstrong's conclusions:
https://web.archive.org/web/20161020060305/http://jfk.education/node/13
Klein's postal money order - claims raising suspicion it was faked
https://web.archive.org/web/20161020060221/http://jfk.education/node/11
Sorry Brian, Jean, and DVP, Banks Did Not Key-Punch 1963 P.O. Money Orders
Submitted by Admin on Tue, 11/10/2015 - 06:47
Updated November 19, 2015:
https://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/afips/1966/5068/00/50680479.pdf
(Lance Payette brought this to my attention, today. "File Locator Numbers - See Explanation, below:)
https://web.archive.org/web/20161020060221/https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1964&dat=19620623&id=2PQiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Nc0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=5330,4714873&hl=en
(https://web.archive.org/web/20161020060221im_/http://jfk.education/images/POkeypunchedNotBank.jpg)
More.....
https://web.archive.org/web/20161020055109/http://jfk.education/node/12
Klein's Postal Money Order - 1963 Banking System Innovation
I was fortunate to make and present this other discovery, shortly after,:
The two people, brothers named by author Joan Mellen as proof of CIA interference in Jim Garrison's investigation, also described in DiEugenio's book, were actually first cousin's of Garrison's wife, and Clay Shaw was informed of this within a week of his arrest.:
https://jfkfacts.org/comment-of-the-week-15/
and
https://jfkfacts.org/provocative-prolific-joan-mellen/
Tom S. April 12, 2016 at 1:25 pm
Although I am credited as a contributor to Ms. Mellen’s book, “Our Man in Haiti,” my entire body of research results influence me to share an opinion that the description of Joan Mellen in this article is overdone….
She first met Jim Garrison just months after the Clay Shaw trial in 1969 and described interviewing more than 1200 people before publishing her book on Jim Garrison, “Farewell to Justice.”
More than 30 years after she first met Jim Garrison and in addition to much other research and interviewing 1200 people, this was the crux and the emphasis of Joan Mellen’s presentation on the best supported CIA influences/interference on Garrison’s investigation and his prosecution of Clay Shaw.
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Unredacted_-_Episode_1_-_Transcript.html
Unredacted Episode 1: Transcript of Interview with Joan Mellen
Joan Mellen is the author of A Farewell to Justice: Jim Garrison, JFK’s Assassination, and the Case That Should Have Changed History. This interview was conducted on 22 Feb 2006. Tyler Weaver provided the introduction, and the interview was conducted by Rex Bradford.
…….
REX: I – I think –
JOAN: – when Baldwin was present, he was a CIA asset, his brother worked for the International Trade Mart and Clay Shaw, David Baldwin, and these, these are CIA people….
I think, so far, four years later, that the Garrison investigation may have been an elaborate ruse intended to make the clamoring from 1966 on, for a congressional committee inquiry, seem unreasonable and after Clay Shaw's almost instant acquittal, ridiculous. The role of Nicholas B. Lemann as the most prominent critic of "JFK, the Movie" in 1991, and the suit against Lemann and Conde Nast in 1992 by Perry Russo encourage this supsicion, even more. There was no investigation until six years after Clay Shaw walked out of the courtroom a free man, and nine yeras after the June 1967, CBS INquiry.
-
Time is the enemy of conspiracies because over time the conspiracy is exposed, deliberately or by accident. People talk, documents are found, evidence discovered.
But time is also the enemy of conspiracy theories too. Because over time, despite efforts to find the conspiracy, none is found. People who should have talked never do. Documents that should indicate something don't. Evidence that should be discovered isn't. Time reveals the emptiness behind a conspiracy theory just as much as it reveals any actual conspiracy.
We've had more than half a century of investigations - directly and indirectly into this event. It's the most studied crime in American if not world history. Multiple government investigations, news media, investigative reporters, historians, "citizen" journalists. On and on and on. And nothing of any substance has been found.
It's not there. Oswald shot JFK. Maybe he had some help. Maybe (again) he was used, or manipulated. Maybe. But after all of these years that will never be proven. Whoever may have worked with him or used him - and it had to be a small "c" type conspiracy - is long dead.
If someone wants to or needs to use this tragedy to go after the secret "they" - the CIA, the government, the secret fascist cabal running the country - that that person believes needs to be exposed then please stop. Stop using this to go after your own monsters that you've created. They didn't kill JFK. One sad misfit did.
Paul, I have been surprised since I got a more complete impression of your thinking and approach, beginning when I was comments editor @JFKfacts, 2015 - 2016, than I had prior to that, from what I read in your Ed Forum posts, that you seem in such close agreement now, with Steve.
I do not understand why anyone would be this self-limiting and not recognize it as a severe handicap, if fact finding is the goal. If you start with a strong LN or CT bias, you'll build in a tendency to avoid finding what you don't want to know because you are actually about validating your biases.
Years of LNs observing the erroneous assumptions driven anger of CTs must account for a portion of LN cynicism and frustration. I disagree that they are all worked up about nothing, but there is the problem of them knowing what they know that is not as sinister or corrupt as they believe it all is.
Example: Three things triggered this reaction, which I found very telling. It exposes an ideology resembling a religion.
I think LNs have a similar block, if a thing as condensed as the WC Report can also be the foundation of a "circle the wagons" ideology.
The WC Report, just as its opposite CT pushback, is a sum of its parts. DiEugenio believes his ideology is all or nothing.
I read a question I thought was interesting and original. I try not to limit myself, mainly by staying indifferent about Oswald's guilt or innocence or if he was an LN or not, to the extent I can discipline myself to.
A poster using the name Brian Castle was briefly active on several forum in 2015 - 2016. He asked a question about the meaning of the key punch holes in the postal money order deposited by Klein's Sporting Goods.
Author Jean Davison attempted to use the key punch holes to support a conclusion the holes proved the money order was bank processed routinely and validated the authenticity of the payment to Klein's for the Assassination rifle mail order.
I was surprised such a simple method of validation could have been overlooked and instead, many embraced John Armstrong's objections, serial number sequence discrepancy, lack of bank endorsement stamping on the reverse side, and the money order not found in Kansas City, but instead located in Washington, DC serving as the main points of a sub-belief system of DiEugenio outlined ideology.
I found, ironically, that Jean Davison's observation about the key punch holes was correct if the Klein's money order had been the older version that was replaced in Dallas just weeks before Oswald was alleged to have purchased the money order at the Dallas Post Office. The Post Office Dept. had paid the Federal Reserve $650,000 annually to provide keypunch operators to manually process cashed money orders with punches representing the dollars and cents displayed on the face of each money order. A primary reason for the revised money order cashed by Klein's was to eliminate that cost and the manual fraud check operations of the
Kansas City Postal Money Order Center, which could then be eliminated after most outstanding old method money orders were cashed, after the gradual, 1963 roll ouy of the new style, in one postal region after another!
I did some digging, had some luck, and presented proof countering John Armstrong's long embraced objections. Lance Payette became interested and solved the mystery of the meaning of the blue inked string of
numbers displayed on the postal money order's face. Just as Jim DiEugenio left himself with no method to consider these new facts and adjust his views, Jim Hargrove's reaction, speaking for John Armstrong, was even more telling. He rewrote Armstrong's web presentation challenging the money order, even incorporating the article image below, taking all credit for presenting a more accurate account to readers.:
My critique of Armstrong's long held claims on his web page, considering the new discoveries.:
Rebutting John Armstrong's conclusions:
https://web.archive.org/web/20161020060305/http://jfk.education/node/13
Klein's postal money order - claims raising suspicion it was faked
https://web.archive.org/web/20161020055109/http://jfk.education/node/12
Klein's Postal Money Order - 1963 Banking System Innovation
I was fortunate to make and present this other discovery, shortly after,:
The two people, brothers named by author Joan Mellen as proof of CIA interference in Jim Garrison's investigation, also described in DiEugenio's book, were actually first cousin's of Garrison's wife, and Clay Shaw was informed of this within a week of his arrest.:
https://jfkfacts.org/comment-of-the-week-15/
and
I think, so far, four years later, that the Garrison investigation may have been an elaborate ruse intended to make the clamoring from 1966 on, for a congressional committee inquiry, seem unreasonable and after Clay Shaw's almost instant acquittal, ridiculous. The role of Nicholas B. Lemann as the most prominent critic of "JFK, the Movie" in 1991, and the suit against Lemann and Conde Nast in 1992 by Perry Russo encourage this supsicion, even more. There was no investigation until six years after Clay Shaw walked out of the courtroom a free man, and nine yeras after the June 1967, CBS INquiry.
Tom, always nice chatting with you. After some 50+ years of examining this case, taking a position is something I’m comfortable in doing.
Conspiracy theory Tom is a belief. A belief is something one has in the absence of evidence. When a person says “I believe in God”, I ask them to prove God exists. Typically the response is “I can’t prove it. I just believe it.” Sure, conspiracies have existed throughout history. We know this as fact because they ultimately were uncovered. The JFK case is not rocket science no matter what conspiracy types would have you believe. Man in building shoots man in car. Were it not a POTUS who was killed, the case is over and done with within days. I doubt no murderer in history has been more investigated that LHO. His motive? Doesn’t matter nor does it need to be. The physical evidence is compelling. Tom, LHO’s sole guilt cannot be proven to a 100% certainty. I cannot stress this enough. I am however able to state with a 100% certainly that LHO shot and killed JFK by himself. In 1999 I chatted for some 27 minutes (I kept the notes) with Robert Oswald. Robert answered my questions but also gave me several insights into Lee’s pathology. I showed no bias as I also met and had dialogues for many years with prominent conspiracy types, David Lifton, Robert Blakey to name a couple. Blakey, a “mafia did it” guy even invited me to Notre Dame to chat with him. I’ve never been an “A knows B and B knows C so A must know C” type of guy. For many conspiracy authors this is their bible. Over the years I’ve asked the conspiracy side for only 3 examples of hard, irrefutable evidence anybody but Oswald did the deed. They cannot do so. And yet I leave open the possibility that Oswald was manipulated. A very small possibility indeed but I believe it’s possible. So Tom, l am not a 100% Oswald did it alone guy. I’m a 95% Oswald did it alone guy. For most conspiracy types, questions that cannot be answered and there are many in most murder cases are all nefarious in this case. It always easy to blame elements in government, business, the mob, et al. It’s exciting and stirs the imagination. Proof? None. But you never know.
-
Tom, always nice chatting with you. After some 50+ years of examining this case, taking a position is something I’m comfortable in doing.
Conspiracy theory Tom is a belief. A belief is something one has in the absence of evidence. When a person says “I believe in God”, I ask them to prove God exists. Typically the response is “I can’t prove it. I just believe it.” Sure, conspiracies have existed throughout history. We know this as fact because they ultimately were uncovered. The JFK case is not rocket science no matter what conspiracy types would have you believe. Man in building shoots man in car. Were it not a POTUS who was killed, the case is over and done with within days. I doubt no murderer in history has been more investigated that LHO. His motive? Doesn’t matter nor does it need to be. The physical evidence is compelling. Tom, LHO’s sole guilt cannot be proven to a 100% certainty. I cannot stress this enough. I am however able to state with a 100% certainly that LHO shot and killed JFK by himself. In 1999 I chatted for some 27 minutes (I kept the notes) with Robert Oswald. Robert answered my questions but also gave me several insights into Lee’s pathology. I showed no bias as I also met and had dialogues for many years with prominent conspiracy types, David Lifton, Robert Blakey to name a couple. Blakey, a “mafia did it” guy even invited me to Notre Dame to chat with him. I’ve never been an “A knows B and B knows C so A must know C” type of guy. For many conspiracy authors this is their bible. Over the years I’ve asked the conspiracy side for only 3 examples of hard, irrefutable evidence anybody but Oswald did the deed. They cannot do so. And yet I leave open the possibility that Oswald was manipulated. A very small possibility indeed but I believe it’s possible. So Tom, l am not a 100% Oswald did it alone guy. I’m a 95% Oswald did it alone guy. For most conspiracy types, questions that cannot be answered and there are many in most murder cases are all nefarious in this case. It always easy to blame elements in government, business, the mob, et al. It’s exciting and stirs the imagination. Proof? None. But you never know.
Same here, Paul, you're a rare, lucid poster on these forums, you're not worked up over Stone's and DiEugenio's "revelations," you have a sense of humor, and you keep the door ajar enough to contrast you with Dr. McAdams on his side of "the spectrum" and DiEugenio, on the other. The first time I read your reply, I thought you were saying, "if Oswald had not been killed, the case is over...." but I can't argue with what you actually wrote. There are or were some who thought Oswald's target was solely Connally, over the USMC discharge matter.
There so many coincidences, and the "slice of life," a moment in time, presented generally by the FBI investigation, 1963 - 1964 is a fascinating but disturbing glance at the mental and criminal dysfunction generally in the entire country.
Working backwards, Bobby Hales's mother Virginia, at the TSE office sends Oswald to a job interview at Leslie Welding, Bobby and his twin allegedly briefly encountered Oswald at their high school, an FBI report in summer, 1962 observes the Hale boys "visiting" Judith Exner's FBI staked out apartment in L.A., traces the description and tag number of the car they were seen leaving in, to FBI former favorite, IB Hale, security director for Henry Crown controlled, Dallas area aircraft plant, FBI decides not to bother Hale with his sons' road trip, and the Hales and Connallys meet up at Kathy Connally's coroners inquest in Florida in 1959.
So, Virginia Hale sends a job seeker on an interview who will soon shoot Connally, four years after her son Bobby claimed he attempted to slap a shotgun away from the head of Connally's daughter, but it went off and killed her. Forty some odd years later, Bobby Hale dies in an Alaska jail.
FBI 302 included Virginia Hale's Fort Worth address, but does not link her to her son Bobby or to her estranged husband, IB Hale, formerly a favorite Hoover agent, and the WC is not shown the report of Hale's car leaving the area adjacent to Judith Exner's apartment, 16 months before the Assassination, and around the time Henry Crown would have appreciated the leverage of Judith Exner and Johnny Roselli's phone calls audio, since the TFX contract was not certain and General Dynamics had just suffered the greatest losses of any still going concern corp., in history.
Other coincidences are Fred Korth representing Oswald's former step-father in divorce proceedings, and Korth being sent back to Texas just before JFK visited, and Korth's daughter, Kathleen Connally, and George DeM. all dying of 20 gauge shotgun "disease".
So, I just don't see how CTs seperate the coincidences from the meat. Oswald, with a publicized defection returning to Texas with a Russian bride just months before the Cuban missle crisis gives one pause. It certainly was not because he wanted to be around family. If any law enforcement or Intel. shop needed a pin cushion, for whatever expediency, Oswald was on hand.
How did Webster's employer, Rand, and his close friend, Shaheen, avoid any probing press inquiry in reaction to Webster's Soviet adventure?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2450.0.html#msg80947
It does not seem like editors supervising journalists or FBI Div. 5 and DIA / CIA supervisors of investgators and informants were getting much bang for the buck when it comes to Webster or Oswald.
Since I cannot identify and eliminate coincidences, I cannot lean as far as you towards "case closed". Resolving DeMohrenschildt is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
No breakthrough in 57 years, if you are not an ideological CT, reinforces the idea there was plenty of incompetence from the DPD to Mexico City's CIA post.
It isn't resolved whether Oswald was in Mexico City or whether RFK pushed for Allen Dulles's appointment to the WC, and neither question is likely ever going to be resolved.
I think it would help CTs immensely, especially those without much to look forward to than the bed closer to the window in a long term care facility, to nurture a sense of humor. Rehashing whether it was a Mauser or an MC, or who was in the doorway of the vestibule is no longer interesting or practical, considering the calendar.
Paul, how did you find Lifton? I've always found him irritating, but he and Harold soon tired of Garrison, so Lifton once had some discernment.
-
Conspiracy theory Tom is a belief. A belief is something one has in the absence of evidence. When a person says “I believe in God”, I ask them to prove God exists. Typically the response is “I can’t prove it. I just believe it.”
What you never admit, Paul, is that the thing you are 100% sure of is the same kind of belief.
I’ve never been an “A knows B and B knows C so A must know C” type of guy. For many conspiracy authors this is their bible.
As the WCR is the Bible of the LN-ers.
Over the years I’ve asked the conspiracy side for only 3 examples of hard, irrefutable evidence anybody but Oswald did the deed.
They cannot do so.
As you cannot give 3 examples of hard, irrefutable evidence that Oswald did the deed.
And around we go.
-
What you never admit, Paul, is that the thing you are 100% sure of is the same kind of belief.
As the WCR is the Bible of the LN-ers.
As you cannot give 3 examples of hard, irrefutable evidence that Oswald did the deed.
And around we go.
John, you and I will never agree on the elements of this case. We have no reason to interact. I no longer will be drawn into 50+ year old debates. I believe the WC came to the right conclusion. You do not. Our big difference? I’ve mellowed over the years. You John, are still “in your face”. That’s so unpleasant. Good luck to you.
-
Same here, Paul, you're a rare, lucid poster on these forums, you're not worked up over Stone's and DiEugenio's "revelations," you have a sense of humor, and you keep the door ajar enough to contrast you with Dr. McAdams on his side of "the spectrum" and DiEugenio, on the other. The first time I read your reply, I thought you were saying, "if Oswald had not been killed, the case is over...." but I can't argue with what you actually wrote. There are or were some who thought Oswald's target was solely Connally, over the USMC discharge matter.
There so many coincidences, and the "slice of life," a moment in time, presented generally by the FBI investigation, 1963 - 1964 is a fascinating but disturbing glance at the mental and criminal dysfunction generally in the entire country.
Working backwards, Bobby Hales's mother Virginia, at the TSE office sends Oswald to a job interview at Leslie Welding, Bobby and his twin allegedly briefly encountered Oswald at their high school, an FBI report in summer, 1962 observes the Hale boys "visiting" Judith Exner's FBI staked out apartment in L.A., traces the description and tag number of the car they were seen leaving in, to FBI former favorite, IB Hale, security director for Henry Crown controlled, Dallas area aircraft plant, FBI decides not to bother Hale with his sons' road trip, and the Hales and Connallys meet up at Kathy Connally's coroners inquest in Florida in 1959.
So, Virginia Hale sends a job seeker on an interview who will soon shoot Connally, four years after her son Bobby claimed he attempted to slap a shotgun away from the head of Connally's daughter, but it went off and killed her. Forty some odd years later, Bobby Hale dies in an Alaska jail.
FBI 302 included Virginia Hale's Fort Worth address, but does not link her to her son Bobby or to her estranged husband, IB Hale, formerly a favorite Hoover agent, and the WC is not shown the report of Hale's car leaving the area adjacent to Judith Exner's apartment, 16 months before the Assassination, and around the time Henry Crown would have appreciated the leverage of Judith Exner and Johnny Roselli's phone calls audio, since the TFX contract was not certain and General Dynamics had just suffered the greatest losses of any still going concern corp., in history.
Other coincidences are Fred Korth representing Oswald's former step-father in divorce proceedings, and Korth being sent back to Texas just before JFK visited, and Korth's daughter, Kathleen Connally, and George DeM. all dying of 20 gauge shotgun "disease".
So, I just don't see how CTs seperate the coincidences from the meat. Oswald, with a publicized defection returning to Texas with a Russian bride just months before the Cuban missle crisis gives one pause. It certainly was not because he wanted to be around family. If any law enforcement or Intel. shop needed a pin cushion, for whatever expediency, Oswald was on hand.
How did Webster's employer, Rand, and his close friend, Shaheen, avoid any probing press inquiry in reaction to Webster's Soviet adventure?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2450.0.html#msg80947
It does not seem like editors supervising journalists or FBI Div. 5 and DIA / CIA supervisors of investgators and informants were getting much bang for the buck when it comes to Webster or Oswald.
Since I cannot identify and eliminate coincidences, I cannot lean as far as you towards "case closed". Resolving DeMohrenschildt is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
No breakthrough in 57 years, if you are not an ideological CT, reinforces the idea there was plenty of incompetence from the DPD to Mexico City's CIA post.
It isn't resolved whether Oswald was in Mexico City or whether RFK pushed for Allen Dulles's appointment to the WC, and neither question is likely ever going to be resolved.
I think it would help CTs immensely, especially those without much to look forward to than the bed closer to the window in a long term care facility, to nurture a sense of humor. Rehashing whether it was a Mauser or an MC, or who was in the doorway of the vestibule is no longer interesting or practical, considering the calendar.
Paul, how did you find Lifton? I've always found him irritating, but he and Harold soon tired of Garrison, so Lifton once had some discernment.
Tom, email me at maypaul@comcast.net. Will fill you in on Lifton et al.
-
'When a person says “I believe in God”, I ask them to prove God exists' -Paul May
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Asking one to prove that God exists is missing the point.
Anyway, God's dead. A cowboy shot him.
Beat him to the draw, in fact.
-
Asking one to prove that God exists is missing the point.
Anyway, God's dead. A cowboy shot him.
Beat him to the draw, in fact.
Quite a video. What program is that?
-
Quite a video. What program is that?
'Preacher' on AMC
Satan is also dead.
-
'Preacher' on AMC
Satan is also dead.
My black lab is named Satan. Trust me, he’s alive....and well. :D
-
My black lab is named Satan. Trust me, he’s alive....and well. :D
You might like this:
OMG
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2080.0.html#new
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John, you and I will never agree on the elements of this case. We have no reason to interact. I no longer will be drawn into 50+ year old debates. I believe the WC came to the right conclusion. You do not. Our big difference? I’ve mellowed over the years. You John, are still “in your face”. That’s so unpleasant. Good luck to you.
I’m not any more “in your face” than you are. I’m just pointing out that everything you say about the beliefs of conspiracy theorists applies equally to your beliefs as well.
Good day.
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To each his own
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I’m not any more “in your face” than you are. I’m just pointing out that everything you say about the beliefs of conspiracy theorists applies equally to your beliefs as well.
Good day.
Actually, the LN beliefs to a large degree are held by all LN’s. Oswald did the dirty deed. No conspiracy. I, as previously stated hold open the possibility of a conspiracy although it has never been proven and likely never will be. Put 10 CT’s into a room and you’ll have 10 people who disagree entirely on what happened that day. No solidarity at all after 56 years. Remarkable.
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Actually, the LN beliefs to a large degree are held by all LN’s. Oswald did the dirty deed. No conspiracy.
I know. That doesn’t make it any more likely to be true. They have a holy book to point to.
Put 10 CT’s into a room and you’ll have 10 people who disagree entirely on what happened that day. No solidarity at all after 56 years.
I know that too. But that doesn’t make any one of them more likely to be wrong. Marching in lock-step on faith is not a virtue if it’s the truth you are seeking. You have to evaluate each claim on its merits.
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Someone just announced:
'You have to evaluate each claim on its merits'
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> No fact is relevant in itself; it is relevant only in relation to another fact.
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Someone just announced:
'You have to evaluate each claim on its merits'
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> No fact is relevant in itself; it is relevant only in relation to another fact.
One piece of exculpatory evidence can prove a person innocence.
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One piece of exculpatory evidence can prove a person innocence.
Do you understand my point or not?
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Do you understand my point or not?
Does anybody ever understand your points?
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Does anybody ever understand your points?
Only the clever anybodies
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Here's Albert...er Brian.... er... Buttons.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yJccYqDk/howling.png) (https://postimg.cc/yJccYqDk)
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(https://i.postimg.cc/yJccYqDk/howling.png)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/ZvgVRGFNUdKRW/giphy.gif)
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Sometimes speaking truth to power (or in the Yates case, powerless) can have an effect on the unsubscribed onlookers of Duncan's Forum. There are Hitler forums, too, as well as Stalin and Lenin and (my favourite) Leon Trotsky forums. All in many languages....... earth is the universe made to see if we can get along. How's that working so far? No, wait......
Kennedy was killed by Oswald. He killed Tippit. He almost killed The Walker Case........ they should have let him bleed out when he tried to kill himself in the USSR. He was a total loser who beat his wife and abused his momma. I wish he had never been born.....
Can you let me know tonight's lottery numbers, Mark. You seem to know everything.
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continued from my last post....
Current intro:
https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKjohnsonPR.htm
Priscilla Johnson McMillan
Priscilla Livingston Johnson was born in Glen Cove, New York, on 19th July, 1928. ....
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/19554-assassination-of-john-f-kennedy-e-book/?tab=comments#comment-272183
Guest Tom Scully
Posted April 21, 2013
John, an edit suggestion submission.:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKjohnsonPR.htm
Priscilla Livingston Johnson was born in Glen Cove, New York, on 19th July, 1928....
Priscilla's name was Priscilla Mary Post Johnson
Priscilla Mary Post Johnson - History Matters
www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/.../WH11_PriscillaJohnson.pdf
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
just happens to be one place that it appeared. It probably appeared in othex places too. (Priscilla Mary Post .Johnson Exhibit So. 3 was marked for identification.) ...
Some timely posts.. Thanks, Tom +
2-1/2 7-1/2 years have passed and Priscilla's name is still mixed up in his (John Simkin @Spartacus) article with the name of CIA's Tom McCoy's wife,
Priscilla Livingston Johnson McCoy, the name John Newman described as having a CIA file intermingled in 1956 with the file (2) of the person Simkin was trying to cover in his page. Ironically, Tom McCoy went to work for the "clean for Gene" McCarthy campaign in spring, 1968, and he shared this about his fellow campaign volunteer, the law partner of one of my favorites, Clark M. Clifford.:
http://johnsafer.com/library/articles.html#storie10
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-R3CfZ7MGj-o/U78q0W94MJI/AAAAAAAABvY/WY_KZeUEFi8/s512/MccoyFinneyCliffordPriscilla.jpg)
http://books.google.com... (https://books.google.com/books?id=0RsXCbfld04C&pg=PA64&dq="whether+she+was+a+real+person+or+a+cover+story"&hl=en&ppis=_c&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjdr-TTlKnlAhWGMd8KHYRFDGMQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q="whether%20she%20was%20a%20real%20person%20or%20a%20cover%20story"&f=false)
Oswald and the CIA: The Documented Truth About the Unknown Relationship ...
By John Newman
..FOUND INSIDE - PAGE 64
That excuse might be that the second, Swedish-born, Priscilla Johnson—whether she was a real person or a cover story—had a good security record. Historians now have the unenviable task of trying to figure out whether the CIA was ......
Tom McCoy was best friend of Clark Clifford law partner, Tom Finney. Tom McCoy's wife.:
U.S., Consular Reports of Births, 1910-1949 > Alphabetical > Jamieson - Johnson
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3-g1yJLNZMk/UEoaae5UuCI/AAAAAAAAA0c/b5c3d8NmnRk/s720/USConsularReportsofBirths19101949_187253755.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6K6YiaVtfBo/T_jSzd3LjMI/AAAAAAAAA0c/oYGimxFSn0U/s512/PriscillaLivingstonJohnsonWedtoOSSmajor.jpg)
.....
We are left to make of all of this, what we will; a recap of backgrounds and relationships.:
In his 1968 presidential campaign, in addtion to known CIA clandestine operatives McCoy and Finney, Eugene McCarthy was assisted by two other men who had backgrounds easily associated with
U.S. intelligence and espionage work, McCarthy's neighbor John Safer, and Larry Merthan, WWII bomber navigator fluent in German, who had worked for the State Dept. in Stuttgart in 1946 and temporarily left his law practice in 1959 to work for a State Dept. educational program in West Germany. He married Bill Harvey's secretary, later Rosalind Carter's White House assistant, Rita Chapowicki. Rita's sister was a Navy nurse "installed" by George Burkley in response to JFK's choice of his own female personal physician. Nurse Elizabeth Chapowicki and Navy Capt. George Burkley continued at the White House through the administration of LBJ.
So, one or the other of the two Chapowicki sisters was in an intimate White House position during nearly the entire administrations of the three democratic party affiliated US presidents in office between 1961 and 1981, and Rita Chapowicki's husband Larry was
close to democratic senator and presidential candidate McCarthy.
?...
In the small, tight knit Bar Harbor, ME community of the 1930s and 40s were John D Rockefeller II and his sons, Priscilla Livingston Johnson's father,
diplomate Hallett Johnson, John Train's father, Arthur Train, and of course, John McCloy.
John Train's partner Tom Devine roomed with 16 Sigma Chi frat brothers on the MIT campus fraternity house with Gary Coit, CIA handler of Priscilla Mary Post
Johnson. Devine had nine contacts with DeMphrenschildt, beginning April 25, 1963, just 15 days after the alleged shooting attempt against Gen. Edwin Walker.
Tom Finney was law partner of Clark Clifford, loaned to CIA in 1955 to serve in Denmark, and loaned again in 1968 to the Eugene McCarthy campaign.
The man in this 1964 photo, a close friend and Santa Fe, NM neighbor of Priscilla's first cousin, David C Davenport, formerly of the CIA, was Jerome A Hasty,
aka Hastings, married at the time the photo was taken in late 1964, to the aunt of Clark Clifford, Marguerite Bowman McAdams.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/author-85-knew-jfk-killer-oswald-article-1.1525293
(http://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/Sm3Ayn9w4DeLleCBunsCLIZKTck=/1400x0/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/AO5DI73QWP3ZLDK6IREGY55SIM.jpg)
Marina Oswald (left), widow of Lee Harvey Oswald, with friend Jerre Hastings (center) and Priscilla Johnson McMillan. McMillan befriended Oswald after the assassination of JFK. (Josh Reynolds/JOSH REYNOLDS PHOTO)
Again.......... why no interest in Tom's findings/connections? Is it not pertinent to the thread? Or is this just 'Ramon's Corner'?
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Can you let me know tonight's lottery numbers, Mark. You seem to know everything.
Sure, Ray......it's 4032. You're welcome. If not that, it's 1095. 3-digits are for midgets. 01-09-37-38-41 (02). You're welcome. Depending on which state you're losing your money to (ending with a preposition.... how quaint !!)
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Sure, Ray......it's 4032. You're welcome. If not that, it's 1095. 3-digits are for midgets. 01-09-37-38-41 (02). You're welcome. Depending on which state you're losing your money to (ending with a preposition.... how quaint !!)
Hey, you really do think you know everything.
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Hey, you really do think you know everything.
Yeah, it's known as solopsistic nihilism. try 444
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............
Short and sweet:
In 1968, Reader's Digest sponsored Henry Hurt, according to his wedding announcement, moved back to Virginia from his Kennebunkport
school teacher job location. He married the daughter of Langbourne Williams's brother.
Langbourne Williams, president of Freeport Sulphur, was closely related to Gerry Bemiss (Billy Joe Lord reliably described Bemiss being
a high ranking Virginia republican party and hotel operator, and Lord had never met Bemiss.)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/89080540/samuel-merrifield-bemiss
Bemiss's grandmother, Cyan Williams Bemiss was the sister of Langbourne Willams's father.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/88891802/langbourne-meade-williams
"Barb", however, described one her husband's George HW's oldest and closest friends, dating back to their boyhoods, as an F.O.P., not
a F.O.G.(http://jfkforum.com/images/BushLordBemissHotelExecutive.jpg)
Search terms: Snare and Nickel:
Frederick Snare, Sr.: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/137278800/frederick-snare
....and Allen and his brother John Foster Dulles just happened to be first cousins of Frederick Snare's son's wife, Ellen Dulles, since 1916.(1)(2)
2004 obit of son of Frederick Snare, Jr. and Ellen Dulles, Frederick III:
(1) https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/bennington/obituary.aspx?n=frederick-snare&pid=2373852
(2) https://www.nytimes.com/1970/09/12/archives/foster-r-dulles-historian-dies-educator-and-expert-on-far-east.html
1958, post CIA coup in Iran, the BP / CIA placed Shah sent his ambassador to Vermont to spend a weekend as a guest at the home
of J Foster Dulles first cousin and widow of Frederick Snares, Jr.:
Allen's daughter Clover's wedding announcement informs us her maid of honor, Eleanor Thomas, was Clover's cousin and I have already proved that this cousin's brother was the last person to see Priscilla's dad Stuart Johnson alive, in 1969. In her 1978 HSCA testimony, Priscilla offered the excuse for the 14 year wait for her book, Lee and Me, was due to her upset over the concealed suicide of her father.:
Archived page from tomscully.com: http://archive.is/esTuB
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95330&relPageId=42
(https://archive.is/esTuB/341f69f3897bf5d6d30cea5923ff3b0c4430a59b.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/PriscillaStuartJohnsonDeath033169_2of2.jpg)
continued.....
[/quote
Hey, let's bump Scully's excellent findings. I feel an urge to purge. Ask me a question. What Am I Doing Here?________Mooody Blues
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Mark, this disclaimer, since I would not ever expect our beloved POTUS's "THC" to even be mentioned in the same sentence as Intertel, is disquieting, to say the least.
I'm going to come right out now, and ask you. Is it possible you Mom's brother, Bill McAndrew, did not simply "fall, in his home," just months after he granted Jim Garrison, "Equal Time"? Did the Sarnoff's mayhaps, order your Uncle Bill to hire Walter Sheridan?
Taking this in a different direction ..... what do we really know about Donald J. Trump, specifically about his relationships with Roy Cohn and the National Enquirer?
.....
https://twitter.com/ninaandtito/status/959525714126098432
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpScopitoneMalnikCohnKlouiseNeufeld.jpg)
Next: Part II
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpResortsShareholdersObject060687.jpg)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-stat/graphics/politics/trump-archive/docs/trump-doc-k-resorts-renewal-2-2-88-d-2-copy.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpNJgamingTHCnotIntertel.jpg)
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/P%20Disk/Permindex/Item%2001.pdf - .PDF page 20 of 22
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpWeisbergLaRoucheSheridan3EyesIntertelResorts_1of2.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpWeisbergLaRoucheSheridan3EyesIntertelResorts_2of2.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpGarrisonSheridanNBCWilliamMcAndrew.jpg)
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Mark, this disclaimer, since I would not ever expect our beloved POTUS's "THC" to even be mentioned in the same sentence as Intertel, is disquieting, to say the least.
I'm going to come right out now, and ask you. Is it possible you Mom's brother, Bill McAndrew, did not simply "fall, in his home," just months after he granted Jim Garrison, "Equal Time"? Did the Sarnoff's mayhaps, order your Uncle Bill to hire Walter Sheridan?
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpResortsShareholdersObject060687.jpg)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-stat/graphics/politics/trump-archive/docs/trump-doc-k-resorts-renewal-2-2-88-d-2-copy.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpNJgamingTHCnotIntertel.jpg)
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/P%20Disk/Permindex/Item%2001.pdf - .PDF page 20 of 22
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpWeisbergLaRoucheSheridan3EyesIntertelResorts_1of2.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpWeisbergLaRoucheSheridan3EyesIntertelResorts_2of2.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpGarrisonSheridanNBCWilliamMcAndrew.jpg)
For the record, Tom........ Mom's brother Bill slipped and fell in the bathtub, unknowingly cracking his rib, but a week later, as he was on the tarmac to catch a plane to accept a Peabody Award, he started hemorrhaging (sic?) in his mouth........ later on that day, Memorial Day 1968, he passed away . I got the call from Aunt Irene saying, "He's gone, Mark. Let me speak to your mom." And that was it. I was ten years old, but was told I was twenty in my intelligence and deportment. Bill sucked on lemons all day, as well as drinking whisky, as all good journalists did at the time. There was no 'disappearing', as others were. Let us keep the conspiracy fresh, though, so all may chime in and tell us 'how it really went down'. But I appreciate your looking all this up. You are also responsible for letting me know of other members of my family's ( i was adopted) passing, and for that I am truly grateful. Stars in your Crown, Henry+ May you be so Blessed+ wishing you and yours a safe recovery from the end of civilization. "Be Good, Love G-d, Serve People"________ Neem Karoli Baba, aka Maharaji, guru of Ram Dass+
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For the record, Tom........ Mom's brother Bill slipped and fell in the bathtub, unknowingly cracking his rib, but a week later, as he was on the tarmac to catch a plane to accept a Peabody Award, he started hemorrhaging (sic?) in his mouth........ later on that day, Memorial Day 1968, he passed away . I got the call from Aunt Irene saying, "He's gone, Mark. Let me speak to your mom." And that was it. I was ten years old, but was told I was twenty in my intelligence and deportment. Bill sucked on lemons all day, as well as drinking whisky, as all good journalists did at the time. There was no 'disappearing', as others were. Let us keep the conspiracy fresh, though, so all may chime in and tell us 'how it really went down'. But I appreciate your looking all this up. You are also responsible for letting me know of other members of my family's ( i was adopted) passing, and for that I am truly grateful. Stars in your Crown, Henry+ May you be so Blessed+ wishing you and yours a safe recovery from the end of civilization. "Be Good, Love G-d, Serve People"________ Neem Karoli Baba, aka Maharaji, guru of Ram Dass+
You grew up assuming it was normal for adults to speak in hushed tones, in your presence? Me, too! ....and it's still happening.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/19058-questions-for-peter-janney-on-his-book-mary’s-mosaic/?tab=comments#comment-251401
.....
My experience with Timothy Leary- - Circa 1965, when he appeared as the speaker at a meeting of a group that subscribed to “General Semantics”.
(For more info on that, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_semantics
At the time, I was attending a lecture sponsored by an Ayn Rand group, and Alan Greenspan (the future Fed chairman) was appearing (via a taped lecture, as I recall).
The Ayn Rand group met regularly in a room at the AIAA auditorium on Beverly Boulevard, where CBS Television City is now located.
The General Semantics people (who believed that reality was rather malleable) rented a room in that building, and in fact on the same floor.
After the lecture, I was in the parking lot, and who should be there but Timothy Leary, that night’s speaker.
I was then about 25, believed in an objective reality, and didn’t understand how a Harvard professor could possibly subscribe to such balderdash (the "malleable reality" idea--my phrase). So we “got into it.” Really, it became a rather heated discussion.
The man really did not subscribe to the notion of an objective reality, and he was adamant about it.
At the time, I drove a 1961 Volkswagon, and it was parked right there, where we were talking. And I’ll never forget what he said:
“If you want to believe that that Volkswagon is a volkswagon, and not possibly an elephant, that is your problem!”
Really, he said that. (And he meant it! I'm not kidding.)
So keep that in mind—I always do—whenever I read anything about Leary.
I got in my car, and probably went up the street for a stop at Canter’s Deli. And then drove home (I was then living in West L.A.)
Of course, I drove my VW everywhere. . . and had a couple of engine changes. But I never thought it was an elephant.
DSL
Edited May 3, 2012 by David Lifton
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/19058-questions-for-peter-janney-on-his-book-mary’s-mosaic/?tab=comments#comment-251404
Guest Tom Scully - Posted May 4, 2012
David,
Leary's colleague Richard Alpert, later aka Ram Dass seemed more adept at describing what had changed from their mutual experience with "mind altering" substances.:
Be Here Now, Remember (http://books.google.com/books?id=U8cGWu0uPmIC&pg=PP126&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false)
By Ram Dass
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vhzSP8-O7Po/T6NTxoWFIrI/AAAAAAAAALk/c00D_ADF_JY/s512/Leary.jpg)
http://hinduism.about.com/od/books/fr/Be-Here-Now-By-Ram-Dass.htm
.....Great Ideas from the Book
To share a few ideas from the heart of the book, Dass reminds us (on numberless pages) that our thoughts are bound in time and space-so to experience true reality, or eternal soul awareness, or divine love-we need to go beyond our thoughts. So for everyone who says, 'this happened because of this reason'-that's only a story; it does not allow you to jump out of the 'gravitational wake of time and space'.
Dass says, thoughts are like a caterpillar and beyond thoughts is like the butterfly. What is beyond thoughts? Us. Soul. Eternal, unbounded love. Bliss. Self-creating joy-that which cannot be affected by time-space thoughts and events. What does this mean in practical terms? Worldly events do not have to enslave us; we can live freely, in peace and joy despite what goes on in the world.
He discusses spiritual paradoxes, like, 'the moment you give it all up, you have it all.'
'As long as you don't want power you can have it....
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You grew up assuming it was normal for adults to speak in hushed tones, in your presence? Me, too! ....and it's still happening.
I quite expected a response like that from you, Tom. We are both even-minded in such matters. One of Tim's biographers, Bob Greenfield, admitted as much that Tim's association with Mary Pinchot was, well, uh, ............ expanded to extremes. In fact, in my association with 'Culto', he even included a youtube interview concerning Ms. Pinchot in his postings, which was, I believe, recorded in the mid-80's, many years after his stay at Millbrook, whilst promoting his 'Flashbacks' autobiography. As Ram Dass said, "Tim had a streak of malarkey", which you, as a 'DiEugenio protege' can appreciate. I asked Tim's stepson Zach after he interviewed Janney about all this if he would ask Dr. Dick to remember if he ever knew or saw Mary at Millbrook, who was (allegedly) there trying to learn how to 'turn on' important people in the Nation's Capitol (especially the wives of important men). Alpert, as you know, broke his leg, thinking he could fly out of his window (LOL). Never heard back. I know I'm rambling here, but it's important to say this. Why didn't Tim say anything about all this before 'Flashbacks'? In Damore's papers, a researcher named William Tripplitt(sic) was hired by Leary to find out what happened to Mary (he and Van Wolfe bankrolled the investigation) . Incredibly, the first person Tripplitt went to was....... my attorney, the late Ira Lowe!!(in the investigation printout, Tripplitt said 'he knows a lot') How weird is this? You can't make this up. I better stop now, or I'll get into trouble.