JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Thomas Graves on December 06, 2019, 08:01:00 AM

Title: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 06, 2019, 08:01:00 AM
On another thread, in response to my statement that Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute" tends to support my theory that Oswald was more fundamentally Marxist-Leninist than Khrushchev, et al., and that he'd decided to "advance The Dialectic" by taking matters into his own hands, John Mytton wrote:

Oswald was well read and I think he was clever in a smart ass kind of way, but not clever enough to have a job beyond low paying menial labour and this pressure of being a failure along with the grim prospect of having to support a growing family lead Oswald to do the unimaginable.
...

John,

I believe what you point out, above, was definitely a contributing factor, but if Oswald was just tired of being a skinny little loser with marital problems, why, then, the "Communist salute" (or whatever it's called)?

The only other "explanation" for this pose I've read is that innocent Oswald, not realizing he'd been set up by the evil, evil, evil CIA, thought he was on some sort of deception mission for The Agency and was trying to stay "in character" by posing like this and, of course, requesting that John "Smith Act" Abt be his lawyer.

... But I find that scenario a bit implausible.

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 06, 2019, 03:25:42 PM
On another thread, in response to my statement that Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute" tends to support my theory that Oswald was more fundamentally Marxist-Leninist than Khrushchev, et al., and that he'd decided to "advance The Dialectic" by taking matters into his own hands, John Mytton wrote:

Oswald was well read and I think he was clever in a smart ass kind of way, but not clever enough to have a job beyond low paying menial labour and this pressure of being a failure along with the grim prospect of having to support a growing family lead Oswald to do the unimaginable.
...

John,

I believe what you point out, above, was definitely a contributing factor, but if Oswald was just tired of being a skinny little loser with marital problems, why, then, the "Communist salute" (or whatever it's called)?

The only other "explanation" for this pose I've read is that innocent Oswald, not realizing he'd been set up by the evil, evil, evil CIA, thought he was on some sort of deception mission for The Agency and was trying to stay "in character" by posing like this and, of course, requesting that John "Smith Act" Abt be his lawyer.

... But I find that scenario a bit implausible.

-- MWT  ;)

Do you suppose that Lee was merely holding up his hands to graphically show his handler that he had been arrested?........" I do request that someone come to my legal defense"
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 06, 2019, 05:28:21 PM
Walter,

Sure, I suppose that is a possibility.

Maybe they hadn't noticed that.

LOL

--  MWT  ;)

PS Didn't Oswald say something about being a Marxist on a New Orleans radio show?

PPS Didn't Nelson Delgado say Oswald read Das Kapital while he was at El Toro?

Etc, etc, etc ...
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on December 06, 2019, 09:03:48 PM
Walter,

Sure, I suppose that is a possibility.

Maybe they hadn't noticed that.

LOL

--  MWT  ;)

PS Didn't Oswald say something about being a Marxist on a New Orleans radio show?

PPS Didn't Nelson Delgado say Oswald read Das Kapital while he was at El Toro?

Etc, etc, etc ...
After his return from the USSR, Oswald said he was a Marxist but insisted that he was not, at that time, a communist or Marxist-Leninist. He said he rejected the Soviet version of Marxism (Marxist-Leninism) as a corrupted version. He wrote that the US and USSR were two "slave" systems that needed to be rejected.

In fact, he condemned the Communist Party of the US as having betrayed the cause of Marxism because of their slavish defense of the USSR. He wrote this:

"The Communist Party of the United States has betrayed itself!  It has turned itself into the traditional lever of a foreign power to overthrow the Government of the United States, not in the name of freedom or high ideals, but in servile conformity to the wishes of the Soviet Union and in anticipation of Soviet Russia's complete domination of the American continent."

One can debate, I guess, whether he was a real Marxist or not (as he understood the term). One thing I don't think we can debate - unless one believes that his whole adult life was an act - is that he detested the American political and economic systems. He said and wrote that time after time. He hated America.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 06, 2019, 09:19:28 PM
Walter,

Sure, I suppose that is a possibility.

Maybe they hadn't noticed that.

LOL

--  MWT  ;)

PS Didn't Oswald say something about being a Marxist on a New Orleans radio show?

PPS Didn't Nelson Delgado say Oswald read Das Kapital while he was at El Toro?

Etc, etc, etc ...

PS Didn't Oswald say something about being a Marxist on a New Orleans radio show?

I could announce that I'm a LNer....   Would that verify that I'm truly a kook who believes in fantasies ???
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 07, 2019, 02:26:53 AM
Do you suppose that Lee was merely holding up his hands to graphically show his handler that he had been arrested?........" I do request that someone come to my legal defense"

Nah. If the “mud wrassler” sees a “handcuffed communist salute”, then by golly that’s exactly what it is.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Mytton on December 07, 2019, 03:11:35 AM
On another thread, in response to my statement that Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute" tends to support my theory that Oswald was more fundamentally Marxist-Leninist than Khrushchev, et al., and that he'd decided to "advance The Dialectic" by taking matters into his own hands, John Mytton wrote:

Oswald was well read and I think he was clever in a smart ass kind of way, but not clever enough to have a job beyond low paying menial labour and this pressure of being a failure along with the grim prospect of having to support a growing family lead Oswald to do the unimaginable.
...

John,

I believe what you point out, above, was definitely a contributing factor, but if Oswald was just tired of being a skinny little loser with marital problems, why, then, the "Communist salute" (or whatever it's called)?

The only other "explanation" for this pose I've read is that innocent Oswald, not realizing he'd been set up by the evil, evil, evil CIA, thought he was on some sort of deception mission for The Agency and was trying to stay "in character" by posing like this and, of course, requesting that John "Smith Act" Abt be his lawyer.

... But I find that scenario a bit implausible.

-- MWT  ;)

A strange exchange was when Sergeant Hill gave Oswald the chance to hide his face and I reckon under the circumstances anyone who was innocent would not like to be associated with The Killing of a Cop much less The Killing of the President but Oswald wanted to be seen because he had done "nothing to be ashamed of"?, that doesn't even make sense unless that is, in his own sick perverted way he was at peace because he perceived the murders to be morally justified. And unlike his failed attempts in New Orleans, this sudden manipulated fame gave him the Public Platform he so desperately wanted, well for a few days.

Mr. HILL.   ....we pulled over to what would have been the southeast side of the basement, got out of the car, and formed a wedge in the same position that we left the theatre, and told the suspect again he could hide his face if he wanted to. And he said, "Why should I hide my face. I haven't done anything to be ashamed of.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

(https://i.imgur.com/29i1B.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 07, 2019, 03:40:38 AM
... unless that is, in his own sick perverted way he was at peace because he perceived the murders to be morally justified. 
More psychology...really?

 (http://www.rogerwendell.com/images/friendlyadvice/friendly_advice.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Richard Rubio on December 07, 2019, 04:20:37 AM
If we are meaning his clenched fist, I suppose it is possible.

But I've always seen it a bit as a reaction to his being in handcuffs.

But he said, they brought him in because he lived in Russia, so, if he had his fist up in this manner as a salute, it's not exactly an admission of guilt.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 07, 2019, 05:36:46 AM
Nah. If the “mud wrassler” sees a “handcuffed communist salute”, then by golly that’s exactly what it is.

Iacoletti,

Is your vision still impaired from the nightly Ritualistic Onanism in your garden?

Do you still think the three women on the Pergola Patio in Towner might be men wearing Bermuda shorts?

Everything still blobs?

Didn't your mother warn you when you were young?

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Mytton on December 07, 2019, 05:57:55 AM
More psychology...really?

 (http://www.rogerwendell.com/images/friendlyadvice/friendly_advice.jpg)

When I was a kid I got the Charlie Brown game at a school fete and it was really good.

(https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images3/1/1113/17/vintage-milton-bradley-peanuts-ol_1_8e0cb817d48d5bd23d71869ace136705.jpg)


(https://media2.giphy.com/media/dO2jP8wv3Ie7C/giphy.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 07, 2019, 06:38:40 AM
A strange exchange was when Sergeant Hill gave Oswald the chance to hide his face and I reckon under the circumstances anyone who was innocent would not like to be associated with The Killing of a Cop much less The Killing of the President but Oswald wanted to be seen because he had done "nothing to be ashamed of"?, that doesn't even make sense unless that is, in his own sick perverted way he was at peace because he perceived the murders to be morally justified.

Confirmation bias is real.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 07, 2019, 06:39:45 AM
Iacoletti,

Is your vision still impaired from the nightly Ritualistic Onanism in your garden?

Do you still think the three women on the Pergola Patio in Towner might be men wearing Bermuda shorts?

Everything still blobs?

Didn't your mother warn you when you were young?

--  MWT  ;)

Are you still beating your wife?
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 07, 2019, 08:27:07 AM
Are you still beating your wife?

Naw, she's won the last three games.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Mytton on December 07, 2019, 08:45:29 AM

Are you still beating your wife?
John Iacoletti


Naw, she's won the last three games.

--  MWT  ;)

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

(https://media.giphy.com/media/C4lSxWjqSJLfG/giphy.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Richard Rubio on December 07, 2019, 09:01:07 AM
One full page of silliness and self-indulgence. What a credit to the forum.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Mytton on December 07, 2019, 09:26:51 AM
One full page of silliness and self-indulgence. What a credit to the forum.

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/938321227217974821/ED52C565837CDBDAB74186DAD988E238506585A6/)

JohnM
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on December 07, 2019, 10:26:27 AM
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/938321227217974821/ED52C565837CDBDAB74186DAD988E238506585A6/)

JohnM

Yeah....... put the backyard photo of this sick f**k holding the murder weapon and a copy of the militant alongside the one with his 'little salute', and you've got two-thirds of a holy tryptich. maybe the third one would be him lying in the gurney, trying(?) to give his little stigmatic sign a final go.....  sigh+.  had he lived, ozz probably would've been 'epsteined'. 
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Ray Mitcham on December 07, 2019, 11:18:30 AM
Yeah....... put the backyard photo of this sick f**k holding the murder weapon and a copy of the militant alongside the one with his 'little salute', and you've got two-thirds of a holy tryptich. maybe the third one would be him lying in the gurney, trying(?) to give his little stigmatic sign a final go.....  sigh+.  had he lived, ozz probably would've been 'epsteined'.

Sorry to tell you this, Mark, but I'm afraid he was Epsteined.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Tom Scully on December 07, 2019, 11:21:13 AM
Yeah....... put the backyard photo of this sick f**k holding the murder weapon and a copy of the militant alongside the one with his 'little salute', and you've got two-thirds of a holy tryptich. maybe the third one would be him lying in the gurney, trying(?) to give his little stigmatic sign a final go.....  sigh+.  had he lived, ozz probably would've been 'epsteined'.

Mark, they "din't" play it straight with us? I am shocked, flumoxed. Say it ain't so!

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTr_fGr4lpDYClCJE0eYEYYYC3lDTX2O6B4GJ0R2ylKHo9UBzv1)
VS Image published in 1969, by Jesse Curry:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldWalkersDriveway1957ChevyCurryBook.jpg)
Also published in former DPD Chief Curry's 1969 book.:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldCurryBookJailElevator.jpg)
and:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldAdiosCurryBookPhoto.jpg)

And the legacy / epitaph of the DPD & the WC:

.......
Quote
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/cheek.htm
...Mr. GRIFFIN. When did the police officer whose name might have been Olson, when did he rent from you?
Mrs. CHEEK. Beachcomber in 1961 or 1960, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he continue to rent from you?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't think he rented there very long, 3 or 4 months. But this was after. Let's see, no, it wasn't after. That was after the first time I had met him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, other than Mr. Olson, you don't know of anybody else of your acquaintances or tenants who knew Jack Ruby?
Mrs. CHEEK. No. You know, his name has been in the paper and his advertising; and I am sure a lot of people had heard about him and go to the club, but I had never gone to the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now did your husband know Jack Ruby? Mr. Cheek, did he know Jack Ruby?
Mrs. CHEEK. No. I don't know whether he did or not. He may know Jack Ruby because he is a National Cash Register man downtown that fixes all of the cash registers. He might have gone up and worked on a cash register. I really don't know. I haven't asked him.....
....Mrs. CHEEK. The man went through those records at the house. I let them go all through whatever they wanted to when they came out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Federal Bureau of Investigation?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. And I told them what connection I had in connection with Jack Ruby. He asked me to put $6,000 in a nightclub.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am wondering if I could ask you if you will make those records available again? I think what I would like to do is ask one of the Secret Service agents to go out there and either make some arrangements to photocopy them and then return them to you, or else if it would be more convenient to let me look at them for some short period of time, and then return them to you. I think I would prefer to photocopy them, unless they are voluminous and it would be prohibitive. I think I would only be going back to January 1959.
Mrs. CHEEK. Those two men went through everything I had and looked at it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you object if I----
Mrs. CHEEK. It is just an awful lot of trouble for me right now because I am very busy and I have illness in my home. If I thought I could help you, and really if there is anything there, I would bring them down myself to you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to do this in a way that would be least inconvenient.
Mrs. CHEEK. But I don't know Oswald and I just knew Jack Ruby when he asked me to invest $6,000 and I didn't do it. I didn't like the way he wanted me to invest. He wanted to put in $1,000, and me $6,000.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would be the least inconvenient way to do this? If perhaps all the books are in one place, we could get the books from January 1, 1959, on to the present and photocopy them in a day and then return them to you. Would that be convenient?
Mrs. CHEEK. I have them stored, is the only thing. I have a lot of things in front, and it is difficult in digging it out, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I suppose really--is there going to be anytime in the next week or so that would be more convenient for you than any other time?
Mrs. CHEEK. I really don't know of anything else. My daughter has cancer. She may be well and she may not be, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Would you retain these records, and sometime during the next month, let me ask one of the agents to contact you again in connection with getting copies of them for us, and you could work out at that time what would be most convenient to you. If you don't like it that way, then suggest it some other way, because I want to do this some way that would be least inconvenient to you.
Mrs. CHEEK. Well, you are welcome to come to see them again as far as that is concerned, but I don't want to let them go out of my hands. I am not going to let them go from me, because if some of those things are missing, it is my fault. The men can come out there any time and look them over if they want to look them over and take pictures or whatever they may want to do, or copy them all off. They can come out there and just copy every name that I have ever had or ever rented to from the time of 1947, if they would like.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If this were done at your home, that would be the best so far as you are concerned?
Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; I will have to go get them. I never have moved them from Swiss Avenue, and they are in the storage house. I will have to go over and get them and bring them over to Hillcrest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many different boxes are we talking about?
Mrs. CHEEK. Everything I have ever owned, I guess is what I was going to give you. That is what I did before. Every record I have, every name that I ever rented to, I give it to the men that was out there and you may have them now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am sure we don't want to go back that far. Well, let me see what we can work out, with the Secret Service or the Bureau, and then I will either contact you myself about it or I will ask someone of the agents to

385

do it, and I think it could be done fairly simply. I know in the past that photographers can set the camera on a kitchen table and run these things through. I take it then when Jack Ruby contacted you in connection with buying out a part of the Carousel Club, that he got your name from somebody?....
......Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I will ask you this, too. Do you have any information that you consider to be of any importance in connection with what this Commission is doing, that you haven't provided us so far?
Mrs. CHEEK. I don't think I have any information at all that I could give you. If I had, I had already called someone and told you about it. If I had ever talked to anyone or anyone mentioned anything about this, I just, like my sister, if she got a letter through the mail, I said, "You call the FBI immediately and turn it in." "Turn everything in."
She would get letters through the mail from different people and the people would be coming out interviewing, and I said, "Call immediately and tell them,"
Mr. GRIFFIN. If anything comes to your attention----
Mrs. CHEEK. I will call you and tell you, surely. I will try to be as helpful as I can be, because I don't understand it, like everyone else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We certainly appreciate that, and we are trying to get as much as we can.
Mrs. CHEEK. I can't feature Ruby killing Oswald, and I can't feature the President being killed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you are not the only one.
Mrs. CHEEK. It shocked me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Again, I want to thank you for coming down here. It has been a pleasure to meet you......

https://jfkfacts.org/dallas-police-chief-jesse-curry-on-the-origin-of-the-shots/#comment-859206
Tom S. February 23, 2016 at 6:52 am
Curry, November 6, 1969:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IR9sQGSVSHs/VsxHifu8MsI/AAAAAAAAC74/YHFrEHfvvLY/s512-Ic42/Curry110669.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ke8rhgkIvu8/VsxJa71K6GI/AAAAAAAAC8Q/Kx0nF1QNgos/s512-Ic42/Curry110669FullPg.jpg)

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/C%20Disk/Curry%20Jesse%20Chief%20Dallas%20Police%20Department/Item%2005.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldJesseCurryObitPg2.jpg)

.......
Back then, at junior high school development level, this apt description was not yet a "knee jerk" component of my vocabulary.:
Quote
clus·ter·f***
/ˈkləstərˌfək/
Learn to pronounce
noun VULGAR SLANG•US
a disastrously mishandled situation or undertaking.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on December 07, 2019, 01:11:06 PM
Mark, they "din't" play it straight with us? I am shocked, flumoxed. Say it ain't so!

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTr_fGr4lpDYClCJE0eYEYYYC3lDTX2O6B4GJ0R2ylKHo9UBzv1)
VS Image published in 1969, by Jesse Curry:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldWalkersDriveway1957ChevyCurryBook.jpg)
Also published in former DPD Chief Curry's 1969 book.:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldCurryBookJailElevator.jpg)
and:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldAdiosCurryBookPhoto.jpg)

he still killed him.  he still killed tippit.  he almost killed walker.  he almost killed himself (domage !).  all the rest is hubris and covering one's ass.  this goes back to the 20's !!!  but back then, it had nothing to do with kennedy's whack. nor did the 'harvey & lee' fable.  you are all just tilting at windmills (get a back brace!). why does this con go on?

And the legacy / epitaph of the DPD & the WC:

https://jfkfacts.org/dallas-police-chief-jesse-curry-on-the-origin-of-the-shots/#comment-859206
Tom S. February 23, 2016 at 6:52 am
Curry, November 6, 1969:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IR9sQGSVSHs/VsxHifu8MsI/AAAAAAAAC74/YHFrEHfvvLY/s512-Ic42/Curry110669.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ke8rhgkIvu8/VsxJa71K6GI/AAAAAAAAC8Q/Kx0nF1QNgos/s512-Ic42/Curry110669FullPg.jpg)

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/C%20Disk/Curry%20Jesse%20Chief%20Dallas%20Police%20Department/Item%2005.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldJesseCurryObitPg2.jpg)

.......
Back then, at junior high school development level, this apt description was not yet a "knee jerk" component of my vocabulary.:
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 07, 2019, 03:36:06 PM


"Curry wanted to dispel rumors that Oswald was being mistreated by police by allowing the press to get a good look at him during his transfer from the city jail to the county jail."

Oh yes, and one of those " reporters "had a revolver in his pocket.....   Just as he did at the "midnight press conference" that was staged because .... "Curry wanted to dispel rumors that Oswald was being mistreated by police by allowing the press to get a good look at him. "    But that "reporter" with the revolver in his pocket, couldn't get close enough to Lee Oswald at the midnight press conference...... 


Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 07, 2019, 08:32:54 PM
On another thread, in response to my statement that Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute" tends to support my theory that Oswald was more fundamentally Marxist-Leninist than Khrushchev....
 
 "Communist salute"? You mean this?--------

(https://i2.wp.com/angry.net/blog2/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/obama-communist-salute.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Jerry Organ on December 07, 2019, 09:34:21 PM
 
 "Communist salute"? You mean this?--------

(https://i2.wp.com/angry.net/blog2/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/obama-communist-salute.jpg)

Yeah. Shocking.  ::)

(https://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2019_12/2769736/190228-donald-trump-kim-jong-un-se-443p_38fad0fec9665a1e544efd106764c259.fit-2000w.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Tom Scully on December 07, 2019, 09:45:25 PM
 
 "Communist salute"? You mean this?--------

XXXX obama-communist-salute.jpg

Hours ago, in another thread, I pointed out to you your choosing to single out and "present" Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA) (a video from dailycaller, employer of Trump-Hannity directed John Solomon "clone," Trump-Hannity directed, Chuck Ross,) here you go again. Trump supporters-apologists are the Constitutional crisis level problem, Jerry, not Rep. Waters or President Obama. I am posting this polite (restrained) observation, considering this thread was unrelated to Trump supporters; both of your posts featuring black, democratic politicians are inappropriate, uncalled for....

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/05/15/the-frothing-right-prefers-oleg-deripaska-as-an-fbi-asset-to-christopher-steele/
May 15, 2018
If John Solomon were still doing journalism, the lede of this piece would be that the FBI interviewed Oleg Deripaska in September 2016, even as the Russian operation to tamper in the election was ongoing....

...Update: Chuck Ross did a story based on Solomon’s report, and did note that the FBI questioned Deripaska in September 2016. But, fresh off complaining that I had called him out for doing this in another story, turns a story about Manafort and his long-time Russian associate into a story about the dossier (in which Deripaska is not named)....

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/full-text-donald-trump-inauguration-speech-transcript-233907
(https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/8431286/2147483647/resize/1160x/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2Ffb%2F70%2Ff4cdd48f4ec38356b9ff8363c97d%2F20170120-donald-trump-inauguration-getty.jpg)
President Donald Trump pumps his fist after addressing ("American Carnaging") the crowd during his swearing-in ceremony on January 20 at the Capitol in Washington, DC. | Getty
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on December 08, 2019, 09:59:09 AM
Hours ago, in another thread, I pointed out to you your choosing to single out and "present" Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA) (a video from dailycaller, employer of Trump-Hannity directed John Solomon "clone," Trump-Hannity directed, Chuck Ross,) here you go again. Trump supporters-apologists are the Constitutional crisis level problem, Jerry, not Rep. Waters or President Obama. I am posting this polite (restrained) observation, considering this thread was unrelated to Trump supporters; both of your posts featuring black, democratic politicians are inappropriate, uncalled for....

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/full-text-donald-trump-inauguration-speech-transcript-233907
(https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/8431286/2147483647/resize/1160x/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2Ffb%2F70%2Ff4cdd48f4ec38356b9ff8363c97d%2F20170120-donald-trump-inauguration-getty.jpg)
President Donald Trump pumps his fist after addressing ("American Carnaging") the crowd during his swearing-in ceremony on January 20 at the Capitol in Washington, DC. | Getty

When it happens to Trump, he'll be giving everyone the 'finger', not the Commie 'salute'.  I wish not death to Mssr. Trump, only an orange suit and some soap that ain't on a rope.....
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Jerry Organ on December 08, 2019, 03:13:48 PM
(https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/8431286/2147483647/resize/1160x/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2Ffb%2F70%2Ff4cdd48f4ec38356b9ff8363c97d%2F20170120-donald-trump-inauguration-getty.jpg)(https://us.hola.com/imagenes/celebrities/2017012019736/barack-michelle-obama-handover-trump-inauguration/0-143-493/featured_5_3-t.jpg)

Not a very threatening gesture. Trump has slightly-shorter-than-average arms and fingers. He's so vain about the fingers, photos from the White House have been altered.

(https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/trump-side-by-side-1-1548153672.jpg)
Above: Original image on left; altered image on right.
       (https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/317ec60/2147483647/resize/1160x/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2Fd3%2Fb9%2Fc21fffd84d078673bc61a5b6870d%2F150916-donald-trump-point-up-gty-1160.jpg)
Hand and face approximately on same plane (minimizes perspective)

"Trump team accused of posting edited images on social media" BBC Jan 23 19 ( Link (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46977712) )
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 08, 2019, 03:30:29 PM
  in another thread your posts.... are inappropriate, uncalled for
So you use this thread to call it out?
That entire thread is inappropriate and most of it uncalled for. Were it up to me--I would delete it all.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Jerry Organ on December 08, 2019, 04:08:50 PM
So you use this thread to call it out?
That entire thread is inappropriate and most of it uncalled for. Were it up to me--I would delete it all.

Those Trump topics will soon be deleted, for sure. That's why we pile it on while we have the chance.

I learned quite a bit about economics and statistics within those topics. And that it isn't Trump's hands per se that are small.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 09, 2019, 09:23:17 PM
Mark, they "din't" play it straight with us? I am shocked, flumoxed. Say it ain't so!

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTr_fGr4lpDYClCJE0eYEYYYC3lDTX2O6B4GJ0R2ylKHo9UBzv1)
VS Image published in 1969, by Jesse Curry:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldWalkersDriveway1957ChevyCurryBook.jpg)
Also published in former DPD Chief Curry's 1969 book.:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldCurryBookJailElevator.jpg)
and:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldAdiosCurryBookPhoto.jpg)

And the legacy / epitaph of the DPD & the WC:

https://jfkfacts.org/dallas-police-chief-jesse-curry-on-the-origin-of-the-shots/#comment-859206
Tom S. February 23, 2016 at 6:52 am
Curry, November 6, 1969:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IR9sQGSVSHs/VsxHifu8MsI/AAAAAAAAC74/YHFrEHfvvLY/s512-Ic42/Curry110669.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ke8rhgkIvu8/VsxJa71K6GI/AAAAAAAAC8Q/Kx0nF1QNgos/s512-Ic42/Curry110669FullPg.jpg)

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/C%20Disk/Curry%20Jesse%20Chief%20Dallas%20Police%20Department/Item%2005.pdf
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldJesseCurryObitPg2.jpg)

.......
Back then, at junior high school development level, this apt description was not yet a "knee jerk" component of my vocabulary.:


This is NOT the photo of Walker's house that the FBI displayed to Marina in December ( 12/4/63?) of 63.....
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTr_fGr4lpDYClCJE0eYEYYYC3lDTX2O6B4GJ0R2ylKHo9UBzv1)

Notice that this photo is badly damaged....( and i'm not referring to the mutilated deck lid of the 57 Chevy in the photo) ...This photo appears to have been folded and damaged by submersion in water. 

The photo the FBI displayed to Marina is shown on page 113 of DPD Chief Curry's book JFK Assassination File.  On photo on page 113 it is part of Exhibit # 55 and it's very clear that the license plate is intact and visible when the DPD took Exhibit # 55 on the night of 11/22/63.

Researchers should be aware that there were at least TWO copies of this photo ( possibly three) ...... And the photo was NOT altered by LHO..... It was altered by the authorities ...They scratched off the License plate.....  Perhaps with modern technology someone could read the plate number on the 57 Chevy that is shown in Exhibit #55.

Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 12, 2019, 04:07:40 PM


Has the small package that is seen lying on the Walker house photo, ever been discussed ?

(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldWalkersDriveway1957ChevyCurryBook.jpg)
Also published in former DPD Chief Curry's 1969 book.:
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 24, 2019, 11:41:11 PM
On another thread, in response to my statement that Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute" tends to support my theory that Oswald was more fundamentally Marxist-Leninist than Khrushchev, et al.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/sm0AAOSwMg5cKUK-/s-l225.jpg)  :-\
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on December 31, 2019, 12:13:47 AM
Castro was LHO's idol and getting to Cuba was LHO's goal.


I cannot help but believe that LHO saw this photo in the news:

(https://i.vgy.me/JYl01c.jpg)



And imitation is the highest form of flattery:

(https://i.vgy.me/AMoEM2.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 31, 2019, 04:37:41 AM
I cannot help but believe that LHO saw this photo in the news:

(https://media.tenor.com/images/3bdb903fe48f8e5f7cc4ca7b02a932c0/tenor.gif)

That’s a stretch, even by LN standards.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 31, 2019, 04:47:39 AM
Castro was LHO's idol and getting to Cuba was LHO's goal.


I cannot help but believe that LHO saw this photo in the news:

(https://i.vgy.me/JYl01c.jpg)



And imitation is the highest form of flattery:

(https://i.vgy.me/AMoEM2.jpg)

Ironically, that's short, blond, very thin-faced KGB colonel / interpreter / mentor of Raul Castro and Che Guevara Nikolai Leonov (aka Duran's and Azcue's "Blond Oswald in Mexico City") standing behind Castro's and Khrushchev's raised arms with his face almost totally obscured.

I wouldn't be surprised if he's wearing a dark blue Prince of Wales suit with red pinstripes, just like Azcue said "Oswald" was wearing at the Mexico City Cuban Consulate on Friday, September 27, 1963 ...

Leonov's diplomatic cover at the Soviet consulate in M.C. in late September-early October '63 (when the "Oswald Incident" allegedly occurred there) was "Third Secretary/ Assistant Cultural Attache".  He later became a KGB general, and when Putin became president of Russia, Leonov was elected to the Duma.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on December 31, 2019, 11:36:25 AM
(https://media.tenor.com/images/3bdb903fe48f8e5f7cc4ca7b02a932c0/tenor.gif)

That’s a stretch, even by LN standards.

It’s an associated press photo. Do you think that it wasn’t in the news?
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 31, 2019, 02:18:58 PM
It’s an associated press photo. Do you think that it wasn’t in the news?

It’s a stretch that the two photos have anything to do with each other.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on December 31, 2019, 02:30:08 PM
It’s a stretch that the two photos have anything to do with each other.

That opinion doesn’t surprise me (coming from one who apparently doesn’t think that there is any evidence whatsoever in the assassination case).

You only quoted half of my post (one of the photos). So it wasn’t clear that you were making a statement about the potential relationship of the two photos.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 31, 2019, 02:53:12 PM
Castro was LHO's idol and getting to Cuba was LHO's goal.


I cannot help but believe that LHO saw this photo in the news:

(https://i.vgy.me/JYl01c.jpg)



And imitation is the highest form of flattery:

(https://i.vgy.me/AMoEM2.jpg)

Charlie, you're a few french fries short of having a happy meal..... You assume something to be true, based on NOTHING but your imagination and then assume that Lee was imitating Castro.........WEIRD!
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 31, 2019, 02:59:39 PM
Charlie, you're a few french fries short of having a happy meal..... You assume something to be true, based on NOTHING but your imagination and then assume that Lee was imitating Castro.........WEIRD!

Yes, Charlie.

How dare you suggest that Oswald was an avowed Marxist?

The nerve!

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on December 31, 2019, 03:01:53 PM
Charlie, you're a few french fries short of having a happy meal..... You assume something to be true, based on NOTHING but your imagination and then assume that Lee was imitating Castro.........WEIRD!

The communist salute is the symbol which both LHO and Castro identify with. And Castro's description of himself most definitely describes LHO to a T:



The Cuban leader, in his own words, is "violent, given to tantrums, devious, manipulative, and defiant of all authority."


Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on December 31, 2019, 03:04:39 PM
Yes, Charlie.

How dare you suggest that Oswald was an avowed Marxist?

The nerve!

--  MWT  ;)

Anything that doesn't fit in Walt's fantasy world is weird, to him...
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 31, 2019, 03:14:24 PM
The communist salute is the symbol which both LHO and Castro identify with. And Castro's description of himself most definitely describes LHO to a T:



The Cuban leader, in his own words, is "violent, given to tantrums, devious, manipulative, and defiant of all authority."

You're weird, Charlie.....  and blinded by your emotions.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on December 31, 2019, 03:19:18 PM
You're weird, Charlie.....  and blinded by your emotions.

That opinion, coming from you, lets me know that I am on the correct path...
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 31, 2019, 04:29:21 PM
That opinion doesn’t surprise me (coming from one who apparently doesn’t think that there is any evidence whatsoever in the assassination case).

I didn’t say that.

However, it doesn’t surprise me that your confirmation bias would interpret a Castro “communist salute” in a picture of a guy showing a reporter his handcuffed hands.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 31, 2019, 04:33:16 PM
The communist salute is the symbol which both LHO and Castro identify with.

What is your evidence that Oswald identified with a “communist salute” or even thought there was such a thing?

And while we’re at it, what does any of this have to do with the assassination?

Marxist somehow equals assassin?
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 31, 2019, 04:37:25 PM
I didn’t say that.

However, it doesn’t surprise me that your confirmation bias would interpret a Castro “communist salute” in a picture of a guy showing a reporter his handcuffed hands.

I haven't did a study of human gestures, but it seems to me that it would be natural for a person to close his hand when holding it up ....  Raising an open hand indicates that the person wants to ask, or answer, a question......   
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 31, 2019, 04:42:18 PM
I didn’t say that.

However, it doesn’t surprise me that your confirmation bias would interpret a Castro “communist salute” in a picture of a guy showing a reporter his handcuffed hands.

This raises a nagging question.....Why DID, Lee hold his manacled hands up to the reporter?     Did he reply to the question ..."Are you under arrest ?" by holding up his handcuffed hands.....
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on December 31, 2019, 05:23:21 PM
What is your evidence that Oswald identified with a “communist salute” or even thought there was such a thing?

And while we’re at it, what does any of this have to do with the assassination?

Marxist somehow equals assassin?

From “Malcontent - Lee Harvey Oswald’s Confession by Conduct” by Sean R. DeGrilla:

It has been the official salute of all Communist Parties. It encapsulates connotations of resistance, solidarity, pride and militancy in one simple gesture. To understand the meaning of Oswald’s clenched-fist salute displayed while under arrest in police custody, and as he lay dying on the floor of police headquarters, it is important to understand the gesture’s rich and deep history. “The clenched-fist salute has been used among revolutionaries for many centuries as a symbol of defiance, comradeship, and solidarity. It was employed during the bloody French revolution of 1789, and again during the industrial revolution of 1848. At the formation of the First International in London in 1864… Karl Marx and his followers gave the clenched-fist salute… it had been used by the Paris Communes of 1871, a violent affair which led to the deaths of over 25,000 Parisians. Since the Third International, the Comintern begun in Moscow in 1919, it has been the official salute of all Communist Parties throughout the world.”[ 223] The socialists followed suit with the communists and adopted the clenched-fist salute.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 31, 2019, 07:45:01 PM
From “Malcontent - Lee Harvey Oswald’s Confession by Conduct” by Sean R. DeGrilla:

It has been the official salute of all Communist Parties. It encapsulates connotations of resistance, solidarity, pride and militancy in one simple gesture. To understand the meaning of Oswald’s clenched-fist salute displayed while under arrest in police custody, and as he lay dying on the floor of police headquarters, it is important to understand the gesture’s rich and deep history. “The clenched-fist salute has been used among revolutionaries for many centuries as a symbol of defiance, comradeship, and solidarity. It was employed during the bloody French revolution of 1789, and again during the industrial revolution of 1848. At the formation of the First International in London in 1864… Karl Marx and his followers gave the clenched-fist salute… it had been used by the Paris Communes of 1871, a violent affair which led to the deaths of over 25,000 Parisians. Since the Third International, the Comintern begun in Moscow in 1919, it has been the official salute of all Communist Parties throughout the world.”[ 223] The socialists followed suit with the communists and adopted the clenched-fist salute.

It encapsulates connotations of resistance,

Yes, and I believe that Lee might have been telling Warren De Brueys and Bannister that he would not reveal that they had been working with him in staging a HOAX attempt on JFK, that was basically the same MO that had been used at Walker's in April.     

Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 31, 2019, 08:32:40 PM
From “Malcontent - Lee Harvey Oswald’s Confession by Conduct” by Sean R. DeGrilla:

It has been the official salute of all Communist Parties. It encapsulates connotations of resistance, solidarity, pride and militancy in one simple gesture. To understand the meaning of Oswald’s clenched-fist salute displayed while under arrest in police custody, and as he lay dying on the floor of police headquarters, it is important to understand the gesture’s rich and deep history. “The clenched-fist salute has been used among revolutionaries for many centuries as a symbol of defiance, comradeship, and solidarity. It was employed during the bloody French revolution of 1789, and again during the industrial revolution of 1848. At the formation of the First International in London in 1864… Karl Marx and his followers gave the clenched-fist salute… it had been used by the Paris Communes of 1871, a violent affair which led to the deaths of over 25,000 Parisians. Since the Third International, the Comintern begun in Moscow in 1919, it has been the official salute of all Communist Parties throughout the world.”[ 223] The socialists followed suit with the communists and adopted the clenched-fist salute.

Interesting history lesson. Any reason to think that Oswald was even aware of any of that, much less was thinking about that when the photo was taken?
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 31, 2019, 08:35:25 PM
It encapsulates connotations of resistance,

Yes, and I believe that Lee might have been telling Warren De Brueys and Bannister that he would not reveal that they had been working with him in staging a HOAX attempt on JFK, that was basically the same MO that had been used at Walker's in April.   

Clearly illustrating that the meaning of some “posture” captured in a still photograph with no additional information is in the eye of the beholder.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on December 31, 2019, 09:01:04 PM
Interesting history lesson. Any reason to think that Oswald was even aware of any of that, much less was thinking about that when the photo was taken?

More from DeGrilla’s “Malcontent”:

Oswald read the works of Karl Marx, among many others, and admitted that he was a Marxist. Political literature influenced Oswald throughout his life. Oswald undoubtedly ascertained from the communist periodicals and books he read that the clenched-fist salute was a Marxist symbol espousing left-wing beliefs and abhorrence of the right. Oswald was a Marxist revolutionary, if only in his mind. He believed that was what he was born to be. Oswald was so committed to his beliefs in Marxist philosophy, that the clenched-fist salute would be his dying declaration. You can’t be more committed or more hardcore than that. Let’s look at this another way–what possible reason could Oswald have for exhibiting the clenched-fist salute? He wasn’t showcasing to the world he was handcuffed, as all prisoners are handcuffed. He wasn’t trying to physically strike or put fear into anyone. The message was clear and concise for those that are aware and open to its meaning. Lee Harvey Oswald’s violent actions that day were ideologically motivated. He was a Marxist and a revolutionary, and that’s what revolutionaries do. Oswald once stated, “You don’t just sit around and talk about it. You go out and do it.”[ 228] He had committed himself to revolutionary action, and this time he finally succeeded. The clenched-fist salute was one of many physical actions Oswald displayed that bloody weekend. It’s also one more piece of the puzzle that points towards Oswald’s implied admission of guilt. After all, who else raises clenched fists? Activists. No matter what the cause or issue, activism is at the root of the clenched fist. Just like fleeing the scene, lying, selectively answering questions etc., Oswald’s display of the clenched-fist salute fits in perfectly.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 31, 2019, 09:24:16 PM
More from DeGrilla’s “Malcontent”:

Oswald read the works of Karl Marx, among many others, and admitted that he was a Marxist. Political literature influenced Oswald throughout his life. Oswald undoubtedly ascertained from the communist periodicals and books he read that the clenched-fist salute was a Marxist symbol espousing left-wing beliefs and abhorrence of the right.

Undoubtedly.

 ::)

Armchair psychoanalysis and speculation can only get one so far.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on December 31, 2019, 09:35:03 PM
Undoubtedly.

 ::)

Armchair psychoanalysis and speculation can only get one so far.

Has anyone ever proven anything to you? And have you ever provided any alternatives? Or do you just believe that showing your skepticism is enough to dismiss every piece of evidence that exists?
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on December 31, 2019, 10:53:53 PM
Has anyone ever proven anything to you? And have you ever provided any alternatives? Or do you just believe that showing your skepticism is enough to dismiss every piece of evidence that exists?

Charles,

Nope.

Iacoletti isn't even sure that he exists.

"I object, therefore maybe, maybe, maybe ... gasp ... I will-we, will-we am!"

But unfortunately for the JFK assassination community, he (and James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the so-called Education Forum, et al.) does.

At least I think he does.

But, then again, he could be a creation of some of the better-English-speaking trolls at the Internet Research Agency in Saint Petersburg. 

Russia.

--  MWT  ;)

PS  It's interesting that James Hackerott, who has recently viewed the original Darnell film in it's entirety, has stated that the three young women whom Darnell filmed walking across the Pergola Patio and then across the grass, were the same three women who were standing by the Stemmons sign in Zapruder, and that he brazenly identifies them (to Iacoletti's certain chagrin) as Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Jean Holt and Sharron Simmons.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 01, 2020, 03:26:40 AM
Has anyone ever proven anything to you? And have you ever provided any alternatives? Or do you just believe that showing your skepticism is enough to dismiss every piece of evidence that exists?
"skepticism"?... Go to this thread and respond to it-----
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2334.0.html
Or how about this one?---  https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1960.0.html  ...your thoughts there.
 
 
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 01, 2020, 03:59:19 AM

"skepticism"?... Go to this thread and respond to it--

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2334.0.html

Or how about this one?--- 

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1960.0.html

 ...your thoughts there.

 :'(

Off topic.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 01, 2020, 04:02:51 AM
Has anyone ever proven anything to you? And have you ever provided any alternatives? Or do you just believe that showing your skepticism is enough to dismiss every piece of evidence that exists?

Since when are the speculative opinions of a writer evidence?
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 01, 2020, 04:32:16 AM
Since when are the speculative opinions of a writer evidence?

Wiedmann,

What speculative opinions are you referring to?

--  MWT ;)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 01, 2020, 05:27:11 AM
Has anyone ever proven anything to you?

Not with raw speculation like what you post from DeGrilla. It’s peculiar that you would call that “evidence”. Of what?
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 01, 2020, 05:28:48 AM
PS  It's interesting that James Hackerott, who has recently viewed the original Darnell film in it's entirety, has stated that the three young women whom Darnell filmed walking across the Pergola Patio and then across the grass, were the same three women who were standing by the Stemmons sign in Zapruder, and that he brazenly identifies them (to Iacoletti's certain chagrin) as Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Jean Holt and Sharron Simmons.

It’s interesting that, like Graves, he gives no evidence for that assertion.

P.S. who the hell is Sharron Simmons?
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 01, 2020, 05:52:30 AM
It’s interesting that, like Graves, he gives no evidence for that assertion.

P.S. who the hell is Sharron Simmons?

Iacoletti,

Didn't he say that the films he viewed were a lot clearer than the versions available on the Internet?

He must have been able to tell that you were horribly wrong -- that the three people on the Pergola Patio in Towner are women, not three dudes wearing Bermuda shorts to a presidential motorcade on a cool and blustery day in conservative 1963 Dallas, Texas ...

Oh, did I add an extra "S" to her first name?

Nice inane catch!

(I tend to do that when I'm dealing with a s-s-s-s-snake.)

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 01, 2020, 06:39:37 AM
Nice inane catch!

Says the arrogant hypocrite who’s always correcting everyone’s grammar and spelling.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 01, 2020, 08:41:35 AM
Says the arrogant hypocrite who’s always correcting everyone’s grammar and spelling.

You poor thing, you.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 01, 2020, 11:47:06 AM
Since when are the speculative opinions of a writer evidence?

The evidence is the salute. Here’s a speculative opinion:

... a picture of a guy showing a reporter his handcuffed hands.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 01, 2020, 12:34:10 PM
I haven't did a study of human gestures, but it seems to me that it would be natural for a person to close his hand when holding it up ....  Raising an open hand indicates that the person wants to ask, or answer, a question......


Here is what a relaxed hand posture looks like:

https://images.app.goo.gl/CKR2pbvdRJ31QyxV7

The clenched fist is not what would be expected if he was merely showing his handcuffed wrists. DeGrilla lists some very good reasons to believe it is the communist salute.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 01, 2020, 01:24:16 PM
The evidence is the salute. Here’s a speculative opinion:

Amazing what you call "evidence".

And, pray tell, without using a massive amount of imagination and speculation, what is "the salute" actually "evidence" of?
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 01, 2020, 02:09:53 PM
Amazing what you call "evidence".

And, pray tell, without using a massive amount of imagination and speculation, what is "the salute" actually "evidence" of?

More evidence from DeGrilla’s “Malcontent”:


(https://i.vgy.me/jxPoQ5.png)

A limited number of authors have elaborated on Oswald’s clenched-fist salute gesture. Anthony Summers published Conspiracy in 1980 and Summers interviewed Detective Combest in August 1978. In the 1978 interview Combest also said that Oswald accompanied his headshaking with ‘a definite clenched-fist salute.’ This cannot be taken as good evidence of a political gesture, given Oswald’s condition at the moment. It may indeed have been an expression of pain. Combest said nothing about the ‘salute’ in his statements on Warren Commission testimony.[ 234]

Summers’ argument can be broken down into several parts. First, the clenched-fist salute is a specific action that involves deliberate physical movement. Oswald was not writhing on the ground in agony on the basement floor, twisting and turning, or convulsing. On the contrary, even though Oswald was indeed in severe pain, he was stationary and supine. Oswald made two deliberate physical movements in response to the pleading of Detective Combest trying to elicit a dying declaration. When asked if there was anything he wanted to say, Oswald deliberately shook his head several times, indicating “no.” Detective Combest persisted. Oswald, as he had previously done in the third-floor hallway, raised his hands in a clenched-fist position. These two actions were intentional, and Oswald made no other movements. Oswald lost consciousness shortly after raising his clenched-fist salute.


Summers’ opinion is that it might not have been a salute. DeGrilla disagrees with Summers’ opinion. You are free to form your own opinion. But the evidence is there.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 01, 2020, 03:00:48 PM
More evidence from DeGrilla’s “Malcontent”:


(https://i.vgy.me/jxPoQ5.png)

A limited number of authors have elaborated on Oswald’s clenched-fist salute gesture. Anthony Summers published Conspiracy in 1980 and Summers interviewed Detective Combest in August 1978. In the 1978 interview Combest also said that Oswald accompanied his headshaking with ‘a definite clenched-fist salute.’ This cannot be taken as good evidence of a political gesture, given Oswald’s condition at the moment. It may indeed have been an expression of pain. Combest said nothing about the ‘salute’ in his statements on Warren Commission testimony.[ 234]

Summers’ argument can be broken down into several parts. First, the clenched-fist salute is a specific action that involves deliberate physical movement. Oswald was not writhing on the ground in agony on the basement floor, twisting and turning, or convulsing. On the contrary, even though Oswald was indeed in severe pain, he was stationary and supine. Oswald made two deliberate physical movements in response to the pleading of Detective Combest trying to elicit a dying declaration. When asked if there was anything he wanted to say, Oswald deliberately shook his head several times, indicating “no.” Detective Combest persisted. Oswald, as he had previously done in the third-floor hallway, raised his hands in a clenched-fist position. These two actions were intentional, and Oswald made no other movements. Oswald lost consciousness shortly after raising his clenched-fist salute.


Summers’ opinion is that it might not have been a salute. DeGrilla disagrees with Summers’ opinion. You are free to form your own opinion. But the evidence is there.

Amazing what some people call "evidence" nowadays....

Almost as bad as "he left his ring in Irving, which proves he killed Kennedy".....

What's next?
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 01, 2020, 03:47:07 PM
Amazing what some people call "evidence" nowadays....

Almost as bad as "he left his ring in Irving, which proves he killed Kennedy".....

What's next?

Confirmation bias is a remarkable thing.

Does Charles think these guys are doing a “communist salute” too?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/John_Carlos%2C_Tommie_Smith%2C_Peter_Norman_1968cr.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 01, 2020, 05:20:18 PM
Confirmation bias is a remarkable thing.

Does Charles think these guys are doing a “communist salute” too?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/John_Carlos%2C_Tommie_Smith%2C_Peter_Norman_1968cr.jpg)


It is a matter of context.

(https://i.vgy.me/WNzU3i.jpg)



(https://i.vgy.me/WlGy3B.jpg)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 01, 2020, 06:52:41 PM

It is a matter of context.


... and creative interpretation
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 01, 2020, 07:03:13 PM
Amazing what some people call "evidence" nowadays....

Almost as bad as "he left his ring in Irving, which proves he killed Kennedy".....

What's next?

That's right.

He probably jus' thought he might get his ring finger stuck in that dang coke-cola (sic) machine, or that it would get in the way of his installin' them curtain rods, later, so he done decided to leave the dag-blasted thang with Marina.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 01, 2020, 07:43:54 PM
Oswald leaving his ring behind is notable. I wonder what the little prick was up to.

 ???
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Alan Hardaker on January 01, 2020, 08:12:55 PM
Oswald leaving his ring behind is notable. I wonder what the little prick was up to.

 ???

He was about to supply hundreds with a meal ticket...and many have been feasting off his narcissitic inspired murder of 2 people ever since.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 01, 2020, 08:14:45 PM
Oswald leaving his ring behind is notable. I wonder what the little prick was up to.

 ???

More notable is that the ring was concealed in a cup instead of just laying out in the open. He apparently didn’t want Marina to see it before he had time to attempt the assassination. This is comparable to leaving the blanket rolled up in the garage to conceal the fact that the rifle was not there.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 01, 2020, 08:18:19 PM
He was about to supply hundreds with a meal ticket...and many have been feasting off his narcissitic inspired murder of 2 people ever since.

Alan,

I think Oswald would be turning over in his grave if he knew that his Marxist act gave rise to oodles and gobs of KGB-encouraged anti-CIA, anti-FBI tinfoil hat conspiracy theories over the years that dumbed-down our country and paved the way for fascistic KGB-boy Vladimir Putin's installing pro-Russia "useful idiot" Donald Trump as our president.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 01, 2020, 09:22:31 PM
More notable is that the ring was concealed in a cup instead of just laying out in the open. He apparently didn’t want Marina to see it before he had time to attempt the assassination. This is comparable to leaving the blanket rolled up in the garage to conceal the fact that the rifle was not there.

This is getting better and better.... I haven't laughed as much in months. Keep up the good work  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 01, 2020, 09:30:20 PM
This is getting better and better.... I haven't laughed as much in months. Keep up the good work  Thumb1:

Keep paying attention and you might just learn something worthwhile.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 01, 2020, 09:42:09 PM
Keep paying attention and you might just learn something worthwhile.

Charles,

Yeah, miracles never cease, I guess.

LOL

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 01, 2020, 09:46:15 PM
He was about to supply hundreds with a meal ticket...and many have been feasting off his narcissitic inspired murder of 2 people ever since.

Somebody said he also left $$, so meal tickets for Marina, at least... sure, why not
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 01, 2020, 09:46:42 PM
Keep paying attention and you might just learn something worthwhile.

I'm not sure it's worthwhile, but I have already learned something about you.  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 01, 2020, 09:47:40 PM
Charles,

Yeah, miracles never cease, I guess.

LOL

--  MWT  ;)

All it takes is a desire for answers and an open mind. Sadly, many people prefer a mystery full of conjecture and innuendo.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 01, 2020, 09:50:25 PM
I'm not sure it's worthwhile, but I have already learned something about you.  Thumb1:

Focus on the evidence of the case, grasshopper...
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 01, 2020, 09:52:44 PM
Focus on the evidence of the case, grasshopper...

Like you do, oh "wise" one, or like it really should be done?
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 01, 2020, 09:55:02 PM

All it takes is a desire for answers and an open mind. Sadly, many people prefer a mystery full of conjecture and innuendo.


And others have a predetermined conclusion and look everywhere for ways to support that conclusion.....

Those guys come up with a ring in a teacup and a blanket that doesn't lose it's shape...

So much for an open mind....
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 01, 2020, 09:55:49 PM
And others have a predetermined conclusion and look everywhere for ways to support that conclusion.....

Those guys come up with a ring in a teacup and a blanket that doesn't lose it's shape...

So much for an open mind....
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 01, 2020, 09:57:54 PM
Like you do, oh "wise" one, or like it really should be done?

Focus on the case.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 01, 2020, 10:00:00 PM
And others have a predetermined conclusion and look everywhere for ways to support that conclusion.....

Those guys come up with a ring in a teacup and a blanket that doesn't lose it's shape...

So much for an open mind....

Weidmann,

You really shouldn't talk about yourself like that.

It's very unbecoming.

--  MWT  ;)

PS  Wait, you must have read Rush to Judgement by Mark "Paid By the KGB to 'Debunk' the Warren Report", and seen JFK by Oliver "I Like Vladimir Putin and My Son Works for RT" Stone, right?

That would explain it ...
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 01, 2020, 10:01:55 PM
And others have a predetermined conclusion and look everywhere for ways to support that conclusion.....

Those guys come up with a ring in a teacup and a blanket that doesn't lose it's shape...

So much for an open mind....

Focus on the case and connect the dots.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 01, 2020, 10:10:14 PM
More notable is that the ring was concealed in a cup instead of just laying out in the open. He apparently didn’t want Marina to see it before he had time to attempt the assassination. This is comparable to leaving the blanket rolled up in the garage to conceal the fact that the rifle was not there.

The found-empty blanket is notable as well, as is the fact that it was threadbare and therefore more likely to hold a shape
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 01, 2020, 10:13:52 PM
Focus on the case.

That's what I am trying to do all the time, but then some misguided individual starts to talk about Oswald's alleged "Communist salute" that is supposed to be proof of his guilt and a magical blanket that maintains the shape of a rifle when no rifle is in it etc....
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 01, 2020, 10:51:39 PM
That's right.

He probably jus' thought he might get his ring finger stuck in that dang coke-cola (sic) machine, or that it would get in the way of his installin' them curtain rods, later, so he done decided to leave the dag-blasted thang with Marina.

Tommy is like that crazy old raving uncle nobody likes who shows up at Thanksgiving dinner and craps all over the dinner table.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 01, 2020, 10:55:09 PM
Yep, kinda like your insisting that the three young women identified by James Hackerott and others

You keep forgetting the “without any evidence” part.

Quote
on the Pergola Patio in Towner and near the Stemmons sign in Zapruder as, from left to right in both films, Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons, were in reality "uhh ... probably Carol Reed, definitely Gloria Calvery, and definitely me, Karen Westbrook!"

And, boom, yet another thread gets hijacked by you and your blob vendetta.

You can’t get anything right. I’ve never insisted that I know who your Towner blobs are.

At long last, get a life and let it go.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 01, 2020, 10:58:10 PM
Focus on the case and connect the dots.

And by “connect the dots”, he means try to read minds and present that as facts.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 01, 2020, 11:18:54 PM
He was about to supply hundreds with a meal ticket...and many have been feasting off his narcissitic inspired murder of 2 people ever since.

You know who has feasted the most off of this case?

Bugliosi, Posner, Myers, Arlen Specter, Gerald Ford . . .
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 01, 2020, 11:21:50 PM
More notable is that the ring was concealed in a cup instead of just laying out in the open.

Depends on who you ask. Who actually found it also depends on who you ask.

Quote
He apparently didn’t want Marina to see it before he had time to attempt the assassination.

More mind reading “evidence” a la the “communist salute”.

What’s next? He wore boxers instead of briefs because he apparently needed more room to soil his skivvies when he was caught for killing the president?
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 01, 2020, 11:23:09 PM
All it takes is a desire for answers and an open mind. Sadly, many people prefer a mystery full of conjecture and innuendo.

Yeah, like conjecture and innuendo about wedding rings and hand gestures.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 01, 2020, 11:56:36 PM
That's what I am trying to do all the time, but then some misguided individual starts to talk about Oswald's alleged "Communist salute" that is supposed to be proof of his guilt and a magical blanket that maintains the shape of a rifle when no rifle is in it etc....

LHO’s well documented actions following the assassination (including the salute) are indicative of a consciousness of guilt. And are not what an innocent person would be doing under the circumstances.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 02, 2020, 12:02:30 AM
And by “connect the dots”, he means try to read minds and present that as facts.

By your above statement it is obvious that you are attempting to read my mind and present that as facts! Shame on you! And by the way you failed!
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 02, 2020, 12:02:39 AM
LHO’s well documented actions following the assassination (including the salute) are indicative of a consciousness of guilt. And are not what an innocent person would be doing under the circumstances.

Anything is indicative of a consciousness of guilt to somebody who has already made up his mind that Oswald's is guilty

That's not connecting the dots, it's making up dots as you go along.




Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 02, 2020, 12:05:26 AM
Anything is indicative of a consciousness of guilt to somebody who has already made up his mind that Oswald's is guilty

That's not connecting the dots, it's making up dots as you go along.

Focus on the case grasshopper
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 02, 2020, 12:06:52 AM
Tommy is like that crazy old raving uncle nobody likes who shows up at Thanksgiving dinner and craps all over the dinner table.

Iacoletti,

I've never heard of that taking place.

Happen in your family a lot, does it?

--  MWT  ;)

Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 02, 2020, 12:19:30 AM
You keep forgetting the “without any evidence” part.

And, boom, yet another thread gets hijacked by you and your blob vendetta.

You can’t get anything right. I’ve never insisted that I know who your Towner blobs are.

Iacoletti,

Anyone with a pair of functioning eyes can see that the three gals by the Stemmons sign in Zapruder are the same three gals who were filmed by Towner and Darnell on the Pergola Patio a few minutes after the assassination, and filmed by Darnell as they walked across the grass, as well.

Your claiming that the three gals near the Stemmons sign are "uhh ... probably Carol Reed, definitely Gloria Cavery, and me, Karen Westbrook!" is tantamount to your saying the three gals on the Pergola Patio are ",uhh ... probably Carol Reed, definitely Gloria Cavery, and definitely Karen Westbrook," and you know it.

Your claim that those three bare-legged gals (one wearing a light-blue headscarf!) are "blobs," or maybe "three gay blades wearing Bermuda shorts," only makes you look like an in-full-denial fulsome fool.

Some rational person YOU are, "Mr. Rational".

LOL

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 02, 2020, 01:10:01 AM
Focus on the case grasshopper

I'm trying, but you keep bringing up diversionary idiocracies...

My focus is on the JFK murder case. You, on the other hand, seem to be dabbling in the wacky world of Goofy and Daffy Duck.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 02, 2020, 01:33:46 AM
I'm trying, but you keep bringing up diversionary idiocracies...

My focus is on the JFK murder case. Your's seems to be on Goofy and Daffy Duck.

Focus more intently grasshopper



Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 02, 2020, 01:35:21 AM
I'm trying, but you keep bringing up diversionary idiocracies...

My focus is on the JFK murder case. Your's seems to be on Goofy and Daffy Duck.

Weidmann,

What got you interested in the JFK assassination in the first place?

Mark Lane's Rush to Judgement?

Oliver Stone's JFK?

James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio's screeds at the so-called Education Forum?

(LOL)

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 02, 2020, 02:09:03 AM
Weidmann,

What got you interested in the JFK assassination in the first place?

Mark Lane's Rush to Judgement?

Oliver Stone's JFK?

James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio's screeds at the so-called Education Forum?

(LOL)

--  MWT  ;)

Actually, it was the Warren Report.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 02, 2020, 02:21:34 AM
Actually, it was the Warren Report.

Did Mark Lane help you to understand it?

Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 02, 2020, 02:24:15 AM
Did Mark Lane help you to understand it?

What makes you think that I needed help?

Not everbody is like you, Graves

Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 02, 2020, 02:44:45 AM
What makes you think that I needed help?

Not everbody is like you, Graves

Did you read the report plus the twenty-six volumes?

Why do you think no mention was made of Oswald's alleged visit to the Cuban consulate in Mexico City?

Maybe because the Ruskies' WW III Virus, planted in Oswald's CIA file by "Tumbleweed" (Guenter Schulz), Igor Brykin, Valiery Kostikov, Nikolai Leonov and Ivan Obyedkov, had gotten ahold of old egg-on-his-face J. Edgar Hoover?

Why wasn't Yuri Nosenko called upon to give testimony?

After all, he's the guy who told Tennent H. Bagley and (probable mole) George Kisevalter in Geneva in June 1962 that, having a wonderful wife and daughter in Moscow, he would never ever defect to the U.S., but then seven or-so weeks after ever the assassination he up and defects to the U.S., leaving his wonderful wife and daughter behind and claiming to have been in charge of Oswald's KGB file four times before and after the assassination, and claiming that KGB hadn't even interviewed the former marine radar operator during the two and one-half years he lived in the USSR.

How could the CIA refuse to let him in with that tantalizing "information," even though Angleton and Bagley (working in separate divisions) were aware of what true-defector Anatoliy Golitsyn had told CIA and were convinced that Nosenko's strangely point-by-point dovetailing and contradicting "info" from 1962 was fake, and that he had been sent to Bagley (and probable mole) Kisevalter to discredit Golitsyn and throw CIA and FBI off the scent of some moles in said agencies.

Nosenko must have been telling the truth, huh, and the "fact" that the KGB didn't interview him must mean that they were right in their "suspicions" that Oswald was a "dangle" sent by evil, evil, evil James Angleton?

(The problem is, intelligence service interview even "defectors" and "double agents" whom they strongly suspect are fake, if only to ascertain whether or not said spy is "turnable".)

Don't you wish Nosenko had testified, and set the American public at ease in knowing that the KGB had had nothing to do with the assassination?

LOL

--  MWT  ;)

PS  The answer to my second question, above, is that wise Richard Helms was sceptical of Nonenko's bona fides and shared those concerns with Chief Justice Earl Warren, and reason prevailed -- Nosenko wasn't called upon to testify!

PPS  Have you mastered the HSCA's investigation into the assassination, too?

Oh, goodie!
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 02, 2020, 02:57:02 AM
Did you read all 26 volumes?

Why do you think no mention was made of Oswald's alleged visit to the Cuban consulate in Mexico City?

Why wasn't Yuri Nosenko called upon to give testimony?

After all, he's the guy who told Tennent H. Bagley and (probable mole) George Kisevalter in Geneva in June 1962 that, having a wonderful wife and daughter in Moscow, he would never defect to the U.S., but then seven weeks after the assassination he defects to the U.S., leaving his wonderful wife and daughter behind and claiming to have been in charge of Oswald's KGB file four times before and after the assassination, and claiming that KGB hadn't even interviewed the former marine radar operator during the two and one-half years he lived in the USSR.

Nosenko must have been telling the truth, huh, and the "fact" that the KGB didn't interview him must mean that they were right in their "suspicions" that Oswald was a "dangle" sent by that evil, evil, evil James Angleton?

(The problem is, intelligence service interview even "defectors" and "double agents" whom they strongly suspect are fake, if only to ascertain whether or not said spy is "turnable".)

Don't you wish Nosenko had testified, and set the American public at ease in knowing that the KGB had had nothing to do with the assassination?

LOL

--  MWT  ;)

PS  The answer to my question is that Richard Helms was sceptical of Nonenko's bona fides and shared his concerns about that with Chief Justice Earl Warren, and reason prevailed -- Nosenko wasn't called upon to testify.

PPS  Have you mastered the HSCA's investigation into the assassination, too?

Oh, goodie!

Did you read all 26 volumes?

I read the report and used the 26 volumes to determine if the conclusions were supported by the evidence. Frequently they weren't.

I quickly found that there was too much speculation and assumption and too many questions that were not asked or remained unanswered.


Why do you think no mention was made of Oswald's alleged visit to the Cuban consulate in Mexico City?

I don't know. The evidence about the Mexico trip is contradictory at best and IMO does not even justify the conclusion that Oswald was actually there or not.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 02, 2020, 03:14:27 AM
Did you read the report plus the twenty-six volumes?

Why do you think no mention was made of Oswald's alleged visit to the Cuban consulate in Mexico City?

Maybe because the Ruskies' WW III Virus, planted in Oswald's CIA file by "Tumbleweed" (Guenter Schulz), Igor Brykin, Valiery Kostikov, Nikolai Leonov (Duran and Azcue's "Blond Oswald in Mexico City") and Ivan Obyedkov (the Soviet embassy "security guard" who "volunteered" to an Oswald Impersonator (Leonov?) Kostikov's radioactive name over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phone line) had gotten ahold of old egg-on-his-face J. Edgar Hoover?

Why wasn't Yuri Nosenko called upon to give testimony?

After all, he's the guy who told Tennent H. Bagley and (probable mole) George Kisevalter in Geneva in June 1962 that, having a wonderful wife and daughter in Moscow, he would never ever defect to the U.S., but then seven or-so weeks after ever the assassination he up and defects to the U.S., leaving his wonderful wife and daughter behind and claiming to have been in charge of Oswald's KGB file four times before and after the assassination, and claiming that KGB hadn't even interviewed the former marine radar operator during the two and one-half years he lived in the USSR.

How could the CIA refuse to let him in with that tantalizing "information," even though Angleton and Bagley (working in separate divisions) were aware of what true-defector Anatoliy Golitsyn had told CIA and were convinced that Nosenko's strangely point-by-point dovetailing and contradicting "info" from 1962 was fake, and that he had been sent to Bagley (and probable mole) Kisevalter to discredit Golitsyn and throw CIA and FBI off the scent of some moles in said agencies.

Nosenko must have been telling the truth, huh, and the "fact" that the KGB didn't interview him must mean that they were right in their "suspicions" that Oswald was a "dangle" sent by evil, evil, evil James Angleton?

(The problem is, intelligence service interview even "defectors" and "double agents" whom they strongly suspect are fake, if only to ascertain whether or not said spy is "turnable".)

Don't you wish Nosenko had testified, and set the American public at ease in knowing that the KGB had had nothing to do with the assassination?

LOL

--  MWT  ;)

PS  The answer to my second question, above, is that wise Richard Helms was sceptical of Nonenko's bona fides and shared those concerns with Chief Justice Earl Warren, and reason prevailed -- Nosenko wasn't called upon to testify!

PPS  Have you mastered the HSCA's investigation into the assassination, too?

Oh, goodie!

Sigh ... So much information to share, but so little time!

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 03, 2020, 12:40:19 AM
Off topic.
It seems to me that everything you post is off topic.
 
  So much information to share, but so little time!
A really fitting epitaph :-\
 
 

 
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 03, 2020, 01:10:18 AM
It seems to me that everything you post is off topic.
 A really fitting epitaph :-\

Freeman,

Here it is again in expanded form for Weidmann, you, and maybe even Sandy Larsen to read.
....

[Weidmann,]

Did you read the report plus the twenty-six volumes?

Why do you think no mention was made of Oswald's alleged visit to the Cuban consulate in Mexico City?

Maybe because the Ruskies' WW III Virus, planted in Oswald's CIA file by "Tumbleweed" (Guenter Schulz), Igor Brykin, Valiery Kostikov, Nikolai Leonov (Duran and Azcue's "Blond Oswald in Mexico City") and Ivan Obyedkov (the Soviet embassy "security guard" who "volunteered" to an Oswald Impersonator (Leonov?) Kostikov's radioactive name over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phone line) had gotten ahold of old egg-on-his-face J. Edgar Hoover?

Why wasn't Yuri Nosenko called upon to give testimony?

After all, he's the guy who told Tennent H. Bagley and (probable mole) George Kisevalter in Geneva in June 1962 that, having a wonderful wife and daughter in Moscow, he would never ever defect to the U.S., but then seven or-so weeks after ever the assassination he up and defects to the U.S., leaving his wonderful wife and daughter behind and claiming to have been in charge of Oswald's KGB file four times before and after the assassination, and claiming that KGB hadn't even interviewed the former marine radar operator during the two and one-half years he lived in the USSR.

How could the CIA refuse to let him in with that tantalizing "information," even though Angleton and Bagley (working in separate divisions) were aware of what true-defector Anatoliy Golitsyn had told CIA and were convinced that Nosenko's strangely point-by-point dovetailing and contradicting "info" from 1962 was fake, and that he had been sent to Bagley (and probable mole) Kisevalter to discredit Golitsyn and throw CIA and FBI off the scent of some moles in said agencies.

Nosenko must have been telling the truth, huh, and the "fact" that the KGB didn't interview him must mean that they were right in their "suspicions" that Oswald was a "dangle" sent by evil, evil, evil James Angleton?

(The problem is, intelligence service interview even "defectors" and "double agents" whom they strongly suspect are fake, if only to ascertain whether or not said spy is "turnable".)

Don't you wish Nosenko had testified, and set the American public at ease in knowing that the KGB had had nothing to do with the assassination?

LOL

--  MWT  ;)

PS  The answer to my second question, above, is that wise Richard Helms was sceptical of Nonenko's bona fides and shared those concerns with Chief Justice Earl Warren, and reason prevailed -- Nosenko wasn't called upon to testify!

PPS  Have you mastered the HSCA's investigation into the assassination, too?

Edit:  I'll go into that later. You've heard of virtual traitor John L. Hart, right?

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 03, 2020, 01:21:52 AM
Freeman,

Here it is again in expanded form for Weidmann, you, and maybe even Sandy Larsen to read.
....

[Weidmann,]

Did you read the report plus the twenty-six volumes?

Why do you think no mention was made of Oswald's alleged visit to the Cuban consulate in Mexico City?

Maybe because the Ruskies' WW III Virus, planted in Oswald's CIA file by "Tumbleweed" (Guenter Schulz), Igor Brykin, Valiery Kostikov, Nikolai Leonov (Duran and Azcue's "Blond Oswald in Mexico City") and Ivan Obyedkov (the Soviet embassy "security guard" who "volunteered" to an Oswald Impersonator (Leonov?) Kostikov's radioactive name over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phone line) had gotten ahold of old egg-on-his-face J. Edgar Hoover?

Why wasn't Yuri Nosenko called upon to give testimony?

After all, he's the guy who told Tennent H. Bagley and (probable mole) George Kisevalter in Geneva in June 1962 that, having a wonderful wife and daughter in Moscow, he would never ever defect to the U.S., but then seven or-so weeks after ever the assassination he up and defects to the U.S., leaving his wonderful wife and daughter behind and claiming to have been in charge of Oswald's KGB file four times before and after the assassination, and claiming that KGB hadn't even interviewed the former marine radar operator during the two and one-half years he lived in the USSR.

How could the CIA refuse to let him in with that tantalizing "information," even though Angleton and Bagley (working in separate divisions) were aware of what true-defector Anatoliy Golitsyn had told CIA and were convinced that Nosenko's strangely point-by-point dovetailing and contradicting "info" from 1962 was fake, and that he had been sent to Bagley (and probable mole) Kisevalter to discredit Golitsyn and throw CIA and FBI off the scent of some moles in said agencies.

Nosenko must have been telling the truth, huh, and the "fact" that the KGB didn't interview him must mean that they were right in their "suspicions" that Oswald was a "dangle" sent by evil, evil, evil James Angleton?

(The problem is, intelligence service interview even "defectors" and "double agents" whom they strongly suspect are fake, if only to ascertain whether or not said spy is "turnable".)

Don't you wish Nosenko had testified, and set the American public at ease in knowing that the KGB had had nothing to do with the assassination?

LOL

--  MWT  ;)

PS  The answer to my second question, above, is that wise Richard Helms was sceptical of Nonenko's bona fides and shared those concerns with Chief Justice Earl Warren, and reason prevailed -- Nosenko wasn't called upon to testify!

PPS  Have you mastered the HSCA's investigation into the assassination, too?

Edit:  I'll go into that later. You've heard of virtual traitor John L. Hart, right?

--  MWT  ;)

I answered your two questions and stopped reading when you really went off topic.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 03, 2020, 02:36:28 AM
I answered your two questions and stopped reading when you really went off topic.
Thing is...
Quote
So much information to share, but so little time!
So much information to share, but so little time!
We're running out of time and where is the info?
Quote
Why wasn't Yuri Nosenko called upon to give testimony?
Who knows? I would have called Allen Dulles [And made him talk]
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Thomas Graves on January 03, 2020, 02:47:22 AM

Why wasn't Nosenko called upon to testify to the Warren Commission?

Who knows? I would have called Allen Dulles [And made him talk]

Freeman,

"Who knows?"

Answer: I know. 

And I've already shared that not-so-secret information with you (plural) on this forum.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 03, 2020, 06:38:41 AM
I answered your two questions and stopped reading when you really went off topic.

That’s ok - you’re not missing anything important or even relevant.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 03, 2020, 06:03:15 PM
Graves, get a life.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Mytton on January 04, 2020, 04:13:11 AM
Has anyone ever proven anything to you? And have you ever provided any alternatives? Or do you just believe that showing your skepticism is enough to dismiss every piece of evidence that exists?

It's typical circular logic, they start from a position of Oswald being totally innocent therefore any piece of evidence that convicts Oswald can't be real and it doesn't matter who produced the evidence or where it comes from, all these innocent civilians, cops, FBI, CIA, Hoover, LBJ, etc, all wanted Kennedy dead and Oswald crucified.

JohnM
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 04, 2020, 12:43:53 PM
It's typical circular logic, they start from a position of Oswald being totally innocent therefore any piece of evidence that convicts Oswald can't be real and it doesn't matter who produced the evidence or where it comes from, all these innocent civilians, cops, FBI, CIA, Hoover, LBJ, etc, all wanted Kennedy dead and Oswald crucified.

JohnM

I think that if anyone is ever accused of a crime, they should make sure that Iacoletti is on their jury. Just sayin...
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 04, 2020, 04:02:16 PM
It's typical circular logic, they start from a position of Oswald being totally innocent therefore any piece of evidence that convicts Oswald can't be real and it doesn't matter who produced the evidence or where it comes from, all these innocent civilians, cops, FBI, CIA, Hoover, LBJ, etc, all wanted Kennedy dead and Oswald crucified.

Who’s “they”?
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 04, 2020, 04:04:09 PM
I think that if anyone is ever accused of a crime, they should make sure that Iacoletti is on their jury. Just sayin...

And if anyone is falsely accused of a crime, the DA should make sure Charles is on the jury.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 05, 2020, 01:56:24 AM
It's typical circular logic, they start from a position of Oswald being totally innocent...
Presumption of innocence is an American right by due process guaranteed by the 5th and 14th amendments. It was taken from British law.
Oswald was pronounced guilty by accusation.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 05, 2020, 02:11:16 AM
Presumption of innocence is an American right by due process guaranteed by the 5th and 14th amendments. It was taken from British law.
Oswald was pronounced guilty by accusation.

Jack Ruby murdered LHO before he could be tried in court. There are no due process provisions for dead people.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 05, 2020, 02:56:45 AM
Well then, there are no convictions for dead people either.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 05, 2020, 03:04:43 AM
 
Graves, get a life.
Write a book even.
Jack Ruby murdered LHO before he could be tried in court. There are no due process provisions for dead people.
Missed the point...as usual.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Charles Collins on January 05, 2020, 12:26:56 PM
...Missed the point...as usual.

No I didn’t. Your point is moot. That’s my point.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 05, 2020, 01:52:26 PM
No I didn’t. Your point is moot. That’s my point.
Your point is pointless. I was responding to Mytton's pointlessness.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Jerry Organ on January 05, 2020, 02:47:24 PM
Presumption of innocence is an American right by due process guaranteed by the 5th and 14th amendments. It was taken from British law.
Oswald was pronounced guilty by accusation.

If one is presumed innocent at every stage, how can anyone be charged of a crime to begin with?

Is the "presumption of innocence" confined to the trial stage?
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 06, 2020, 03:35:38 AM
If one is presumed innocent at every stage, how can anyone be charged of a crime to begin with? Is the "presumption of innocence" confined to the trial stage?
I understand that one is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law or admits guilt of their own accord. Now if I can understand it.....
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Martin Weidmann on January 06, 2020, 06:41:47 AM
If one is presumed innocent at every stage, how can anyone be charged of a crime to begin with?

Is the "presumption of innocence" confined to the trial stage?

As far as I know, this is the second time you've asked this question. You really think you are somehow being clever here, right?

Apparently, you have still not understood that you can be suspected of having committed a crime, and even be arrested and charged for it, while at the same time being considered legally presumed innocent until proven guilty in court.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Jerry Organ on January 06, 2020, 06:28:07 PM
As far as I know, this is the second time you've asked this question. You really think you are somehow being clever here, right?

A few CTs keep raising the point, sometimes justifying their lack of need to prove a conspiracy.

Quote
Apparently, you have still not understood that you can be suspected of having committed a crime, and even be arrested and charged for it, while at the same time being considered legally presumed innocent until proven guilty in court.

Where's the "presumption of innocence" if you can be charged and locked up? Doesn't seem to work at the pre-trial stages.
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 06, 2020, 07:00:39 PM
As far as I know, this is the second time you've asked this question. You really think you are somehow being clever here, right?

Apparently, you have still not understood that you can be suspected of having committed a crime, and even be arrested and charged for it, while at the same time being considered legally presumed innocent until proven guilty in court.

This is the basis for reading the Miranda to a suspect....   The suspect must be made aware that he  or she has the right to remain silent and they do not have to answer any questions from the police until they have a attorney at their side.   
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 07, 2020, 04:10:58 AM
Focus on the case and connect the dots.

Done

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHZSM2M0/dot-head-oswald.png)

Sigmar Polke
Portrait of Lee Harvey Oswald
Privatsammlung - © The Estate of Sigmar Polke,
Cologne/VG Bild-Kunst, Bonn 2016. Photo: Wolfgang Morell
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 07, 2020, 05:34:06 PM
Done

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHZSM2M0/dot-head-oswald.png)

Sigmar Polke
Portrait of Lee Harvey Oswald
Privatsammlung - © The Estate of Sigmar Polke,
Cologne/VG Bild-Kunst, Bonn 2016. Photo: Wolfgang Morell


That looks like JFK with the back of his head blown away.....
Title: Re: Oswald's "Handcuffed Communist Salute"
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 07, 2020, 07:19:26 PM
That looks like JFK with the back of his head blown away.....

Yikes!