JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Lee Wotton on February 11, 2018, 12:38:37 PM

Title: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 11, 2018, 12:38:37 PM
Too much time and effort is wasted examining Oswald, Tippit et al just as the conspirators planned it.  A simple analysis of the real evidence of shots fired proves it was a conspiracy.  That information is already out there and is diminished by focussing in the wrong directions:

- Forget the number of audible shots; there were signallers and spotters to ensure some shots were simultaneous.

- Bullet to JFK's back near the right shoulder - not the back of the neck. No way that could have come out the front of his neck from he trajectory.  JFK's suit coat and shirt show this.

- Bullet from front at reduced velocity through windshield enters JFK's throat with insufficient power to emerge out the other side.

- Bullet to JFK's head.

- Bullet that missed and hit the kerb causing consequential injury to James Tague on Main Street

- Bullet "found" at Parkland Hospital (only one attributed to the MC owned supposedly by LHO).  No markings or loss in weight to support hitting anything substantial.  A plant to frame LHO.

- Bullet that hit Connally in the back going through him and exiting low down on his suit coat possibly breaking his wrist too.

- Bullet denting top metal framing of windshield with fragments deflected down into Connally's thigh.  Fragments were also found in Greer's seat, the foot well where Kellerman sat and under the jump seat

- Three shells lined up in TSBD sixth floor.

- Through and through windshield bullet hole requires high velocity round.

There you have 2 different directions of shooting and ore than 3 shots.  This equals CONSPIRACY.

We may never have the names of the shooters but we know who the plotters had to be as there was a well orchestrated cover up.  We know why wen we look at World and domestic events at that time.



Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lloyd Morris on February 11, 2018, 03:52:37 PM
There you have 2 different directions of shooting and more than 3 shots.  This equals CONSPIRACY.


Lee,

No question that bullets coming from two different directions proves a conspiracy. I believe there were multiple shots from different directions but don't follow your logic here.

- "Bullet from front at reduced velocity through windshield enters JFK's throat with insufficient power to emerge out the other side."

- "Through and through windshield bullet hole requires high velocity round."



I am not sure what you are saying with these statements as they are incongruent. Please define what you believe to be the speed of "high velocity rounds" and what velocity you believe is necessary for a "through and through windshield bullet hole". Are you trying to say that a bullet passing through a car windshield must be traveling at a high velocity and the resistance of the windshield glass reduces the speed of the bullet to the extent that it would enter JFK's soft neck tissue but not exit?

Even pistol bullets traveling at the relatively low velocity of +/-800 feet per second [as compared to high velocity rifle bullets] can easily penetrate vehicle windshield glass. Bullets traveling at "high velocity" are not necessary for a "through and through windshield bullet hole".


"-Bullet through windshield denting top metal framing of windshield with fragments deflected down into Connally's thigh.  Fragments were also found in Greer's seat, the foot well where Kellerman sat and under the jump seat"

The bullet or bullet fragment which dented the chrome strip at the "top metal framing of windshield" could not have come through the front of the windshield and then impacted the chrome strip above the drivers heads. This bullet or bullet fragment must have come from behind the limousine rather than through the front windshield.

"-Bullet that hit Connally in the back going through him and exiting low down on his suit coat possibly breaking his wrist too".

The bullet that entered Governor Connally's back and exited his chest just below his right nipple did not exit low down on his suit coat.



Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on February 11, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
- Bullet from front at reduced velocity through windshield enters JFK's throat with insufficient power to emerge out the other side.

Couldn't a bullet from the back have an equal chance of penetrating the windscreen?

JohnM
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lloyd Morris on February 11, 2018, 04:51:50 PM
John,

I am not disagreeing with Lee's basic premise, I just don't understand what he is saying about the direction of the shots and evidence of bullet and bullet fragments and the damage they caused to the vehicle.

"Couldn't a bullet from the back have an equal chance of penetrating the windscreen?"


Yes, it is possible. A bullet or larger bullet fragment traveling from the rear toward the front of the limousine could penetrate the windshield. Not sure how this proves more than one shooter.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 11, 2018, 05:26:57 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Couldn't a bullet from the back have an equal chance of penetrating the windscreen?

JohnM
Not hitting his throat and not going straight through
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 11, 2018, 05:31:34 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
John,

I am not disagreeing with Lee's basic premise, I just don't understand what he is saying about the direction of the shots and evidence of bullet and bullet fragments and the damage they caused to the vehicle.

"Couldn't a bullet from the back have an equal chance of penetrating the windscreen?"


Yes, it is possible. A bullet or larger bullet fragment traveling from the rear toward the front of the limousine could penetrate the windshield. Not sure how this proves more than one shooter.

Hi Lloyd,

Thank for pointing out my error I had meant to say about the bullet denting the windscreen surround coming from behind.  In my rushing I got my thoughts down wrong.

The photo of Connally's suit coat has the hole lower down but not dismissing what you say as I've also read it described as you state.

Bullet fragment locations come from the inspection report of the limo in the White House garage
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 11, 2018, 05:34:26 PM
Governor Connally's suit coat with bullet hole


(http://users.skynet.be/mar/SBT/Images2/Connally%20wounds&clothes.jpg)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 11, 2018, 05:36:58 PM
White House Garage Inspection of JFK's Limo

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=4886#relPageId=18&tab=page (http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=4886#relPageId=18&tab=page)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 11, 2018, 05:41:18 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There you have 2 different directions of shooting and more than 3 shots.  This equals CONSPIRACY.


Lee,

No question that bullets coming from two different directions proves a conspiracy. I believe there were multiple shots from different directions but don't follow your logic here.

- "Bullet from front at reduced velocity through windshield enters JFK's throat with insufficient power to emerge out the other side."

- "Through and through windshield bullet hole requires high velocity round."



I am not sure what you are saying with these statements as they are incongruent. Please define what you believe to be the speed of "high velocity rounds" and what velocity you believe is necessary for a "through and through windshield bullet hole". Are you trying to say that a bullet passing through a car windshield must be traveling at a high velocity and the resistance of the windshield glass reduces the speed of the bullet to the extent that it would enter JFK's soft neck tissue but not exit?

Even pistol bullets traveling at the relatively low velocity of +/-800 feet per second [as compared to high velocity rifle bullets] can easily penetrate vehicle windshield glass. Bullets traveling at "high velocity" are not necessary for a "through and through windshield bullet hole".


"-Bullet through windshield denting top metal framing of windshield with fragments deflected down into Connally's thigh.  Fragments were also found in Greer's seat, the foot well where Kellerman sat and under the jump seat"

The bullet or bullet fragment which dented the chrome strip at the "top metal framing of windshield" could not have come through the front of the windshield and then impacted the chrome strip above the drivers heads. This bullet or bullet fragment must have come from behind the limousine rather than through the front windshield.

"-Bullet that hit Connally in the back going through him and exiting low down on his suit coat possibly breaking his wrist too".

The bullet that entered Governor Connally's back and exited his chest just below his right nipple did not exit low down on his suit coat.

Hi Lloyd,

Thanks for your post.  I didn't word certain parts of it too well.

By reduced velocity I meant passing through the windshield reduced the bullet's velocity and energy so it entered JFK's throat but didn't pass right through.

High velocity is in terms of a military weapon as it went through the windscreen from quite a distance being level with the overpass but some distance to the limo's left
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on February 11, 2018, 05:42:40 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
John,

I am not disagreeing with Lee's basic premise, I just don't understand what he is saying about the direction of the shots and evidence of bullet and bullet fragments and the damage they caused to the vehicle.

"Couldn't a bullet from the back have an equal chance of penetrating the windscreen?"


Yes, it is possible. A bullet or larger bullet fragment traveling from the rear toward the front of the limousine could penetrate the windshield. Not sure how this proves more than one shooter.
Oswald on the 6th floor fired 3 shots and that's that!

JohnM
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 11, 2018, 05:56:06 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There you have 2 different directions of shooting and more than 3 shots.  This equals CONSPIRACY.


Lee,

No question that bullets coming from two different directions proves a conspiracy. I believe there were multiple shots from different directions but don't follow your logic here.

- "Bullet from front at reduced velocity through windshield enters JFK's throat with insufficient power to emerge out the other side."

- "Through and through windshield bullet hole requires high velocity round."



I am not sure what you are saying with these statements as they are incongruent. Please define what you believe to be the speed of "high velocity rounds" and what velocity you believe is necessary for a "through and through windshield bullet hole". Are you trying to say that a bullet passing through a car windshield must be traveling at a high velocity and the resistance of the windshield glass reduces the speed of the bullet to the extent that it would enter JFK's soft neck tissue but not exit?

Even pistol bullets traveling at the relatively low velocity of +/-800 feet per second [as compared to high velocity rifle bullets] can easily penetrate vehicle windshield glass. Bullets traveling at "high velocity" are not necessary for a "through and through windshield bullet hole".


"-Bullet through windshield denting top metal framing of windshield with fragments deflected down into Connally's thigh.  Fragments were also found in Greer's seat, the foot well where Kellerman sat and under the jump seat"

The bullet or bullet fragment which dented the chrome strip at the "top metal framing of windshield" could not have come through the front of the windshield and then impacted the chrome strip above the drivers heads. This bullet or bullet fragment must have come from behind the limousine rather than through the front windshield.

"-Bullet that hit Connally in the back going through him and exiting low down on his suit coat possibly breaking his wrist too".

The bullet that entered Governor Connally's back and exited his chest just below his right nipple did not exit low down on his suit coat.

If you have proof that anyone other than the shooter knew there was to be an attempt made on Kennedy that day, by all means post it.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 11, 2018, 06:01:26 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login



Oswald on the 6th floor fired 3 shots and that's that!



JohnM

Look at my original post and cite some evidence that there were only three bullets from one direction.  Then you can tell me about that new law of Physics you've discovered.

Only one bullet was attributed to the MC and that was planted at Parkland with no loss of mass that would indicate it hit anything at all.  Never mind caused the injuries that day. 
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 11, 2018, 06:02:30 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login



Oswald on the 6th floor fired 3 shots and that's that!



JohnM

Anything is possible in the CT twilight zone, except that.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 11, 2018, 06:04:38 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If you have proof that anyone other than the shooter knew there was to be an attempt made on Kennedy that day, by all means post it.

No Bill lets stick to my original post and you cite evidence that counters the number of bullets fired / witnessed and the number of directions.

My OP was posted to focus on the number of bullets fired and accounted for and from which direction they came.  I welcome you countering any points in my OP
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 11, 2018, 06:06:38 PM
Bill,

All you LN'ers are in denial anddon't even believe the HSCA.  Lets keep this topic on the OP please.  Go ahead take a part the OP points made
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on February 11, 2018, 06:11:21 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Look at my original post and cite some evidence that there were only three bullets from one direction.  Then you can tell me about that new law of Physics you've discovered.

Only one bullet was attributed to the MC and that was planted at Parkland with no loss of mass that would indicate it hit anything at all.  Never mind caused the injuries that day.
A. About 95% of the earwitnesses said all the bullets came from one direction, meaning no crossfire.
B. There were bullet fragments in the Limo that were exclusively matched to Oswalds rifle.
C. CE399 was missing a tiny amount of lead and the amount of lead in Connally was tiny.

JohnM
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Paul McBrearty on February 11, 2018, 06:26:10 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Too much time and effort is wasted examining Oswald, Tippit et al just as the conspirators planned it.  A simple analysis of the real evidence of shots fired proves it was a conspiracy.  That information is already out there and is diminished by focussing in the wrong directions:

- Forget the number of audible shots; there were signallers and spotters to ensure some shots were simultaneous.

- Bullet to JFK's back near the right shoulder - not the back of the neck. No way that could have come out the front of his neck from he trajectory.  JFK's suit coat and shirt show this.

- Bullet from front at reduced velocity through windshield enters JFK's throat with insufficient power to emerge out the other side.

- Bullet to JFK's head.

- Bullet that missed and hit the kerb causing consequential injury to James Tague on Main Street

- Bullet "found" at Parkland Hospital (only one attributed to the MC owned supposedly by LHO).  No markings or loss in weight to support hitting anything substantial.  A plant to frame LHO.

- Bullet that hit Connally in the back going through him and exiting low down on his suit coat possibly breaking his wrist too.

- Bullet denting top metal framing of windshield with fragments deflected down into Connally's thigh.  Fragments were also found in Greer's seat, the foot well where Kellerman sat and under the jump seat

- Three shells lined up in TSBD sixth floor.

- Through and through windshield bullet hole requires high velocity round.

There you have 2 different directions of shooting and ore than 3 shots.  This equals CONSPIRACY.

We may never have the names of the shooters but we know who the plotters had to be as there was a well orchestrated cover up.  We know why wen we look at World and domestic events at that time.

Fact. All three shots were fired from the sixth floor south-east corner window of the TSBD by Lee Harvey Oswald using C2766. The first shot missed. The third struck Kennedy in the head.
The second shot, one bullet, caused seven wounds in JFK and GC. That's what the evidence shows. There is absolutely no evidence in existence which shows that there were shots from any other direction. What you have posted is more tired conspiracy hogwash that belongs in the twilight zone.   
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lloyd Morris on February 11, 2018, 06:53:16 PM
A. "About 95% of the earwitnesses said all the bullets came from one direction, meaning no crossfire."


Not true

B. There were bullet fragments in the Limo that were exclusively matched to Oswalds rifle.

Yes, The FBI said bullet fragments were matched to the rifle the WC said was LHO rifle.


C. CE399 was missing a tiny amount of lead and the amount of lead in Connally was tiny.

This is true, but also misleading. CE399 was missing a very tiny amount of lead, just enough to be outside the average range of the unfired bullet weight in grains of the samples of identical ammo the FBI used for comparison and inconsistent in weight and lack of deformation with all of the test bullets fired by the WC/FBI into human cadaver wrist bones, goats ribs, etc. FBI SA Robert Frazier reported the average unfired weight of a Winchester Cartridge Company 6.5mm round-nosed bullet is 161 grains. He said he weighed CE399 at 158.6 grains and stated a difference of 2.4 grains.

The amount in weight and number of lead fragments in Governor Connelly was not tiny.  The fragment imbedded in his thigh was by itself,  1.3 x 3.5 mm on x-ray. Several other fragments in Connelly's wrist were identified and only two were removed by Dr. Gregory during his wrist surgery. Dr. Shires also noted another larger bullet fragment which posed no threat and was left in Connelly's chest.

 





Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on February 11, 2018, 07:04:44 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Which earwitnesses said shots came from both ends of Elm street?

JohnM
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lloyd Morris on February 11, 2018, 08:10:08 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Which earwitnesses said shots came from both ends of Elm street?

JohnM

John,

In the interest of not getting this thread off the original track, what do you think about starting another thread focusing on the the ear and eye witnesses who said the shots came from some place other than the TSBD? I have a several page response with witnesses statements. Either way is fine with me and I am glad to start a separate thread and answer your question.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 11, 2018, 08:14:51 PM
John you really don't have a clue what evidence is do you?

My OP refers to at least 6 bullets and at least 2 directions of fire.  Whichever way you look at it, it couldn't have been one shooter
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 11, 2018, 08:18:13 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Fact. All three shots were fired from the sixth floor south-east corner window of the TSBD by Lee Harvey Oswald using C2766. The first shot missed. The third struck Kennedy in the head.
The second shot, one bullet, caused seven wounds in JFK and GC. That's what the evidence shows. There is absolutely no evidence in existence which shows that there were shots from any other direction. What you have posted is more tired conspiracy hogwash that belongs in the twilight zone.   


Hahaha what's the new law of physics you just invented?  Oswald never fired a rifle that day as tests showed and they didn't find his print on the rifle before the chain of evidence was broken.  Read up on it
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 11, 2018, 08:24:13 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
John,

In the interest of not getting this thread off the original track, what do you think about starting another thread focusing on the the ear and eye witnesses who said the shots came from some place other than the TSBD? I have a several page response with witnesses statements. Either way is fine with me and I am glad to start a separate thread and answer your question.

Thank you Lloyd.

It would be great to try and keep this on the OP.  I'm more than happy to hear peoples opposing views on the specific points of my OP preferably backed up with citations.  The bullets just don't add up to three or one direction of fire as far as I can see
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on February 11, 2018, 08:37:08 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
John,

In the interest of not getting this thread off the original track, what do you think about starting another thread focusing on the the ear and eye witnesses who said the shots came from some place other than the TSBD? I have a several page response with witnesses statements. Either way is fine with me and I am glad to start a separate thread and answer your question.
You don't need my permission, if you want to start another thread go ahead.

JohnM
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 11, 2018, 09:21:22 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Look at my original post and cite some evidence that there were only three bullets from one direction.  Then you can tell me about that new law of Physics you've discovered.

Lee, your original post doesn't actually cite any evidence that there were more than three bullets from more than one direction.

Quote
Only one bullet was attributed to the MC

You apparently are unaware of the two large bullet fragments recovered from the limo that were matched to Oswald's Carcano.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305150
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305151


Quote
and that was planted at Parkland

Planted by who and when? Why was it planted?

Quote
with no loss of mass that would indicate it hit anything at all. 

That is false. CE-399 was missing about 3 grains of mass.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 11, 2018, 09:27:54 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
  Oswald never fired a rifle that day as tests showed

What tests are you referring to? The paraffin tests? Are you aware that the FBI test fired CE139  to see if it would deposit nitrate residue on the cheeks on those who fired it?

 
Quote
and they didn't find his print on the rifle before the chain of evidence was broken.

Wrong. Oswald's palm print was lifted off of the rifle on Nov 22, 1963 by Carl Day.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Martin Weidmann on February 11, 2018, 09:29:29 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Lee, your original post doesn't actually cite any evidence that there were more than three bullets from more than one direction.

You apparently are unaware of the two large bullet fragments recovered from the limo that were matched to Oswald's Carcano.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305150
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305151


Planted by who and when? Why was it planted?

That is false. CE-399 was missing about 3 grains of mass.

You apparently are unaware of the two large bullet fragments recovered from the limo that were matched to Oswald's Carcano.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305150
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305151

Tim,

When the FBI examined the limo, who actually found there bullet fragments?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 11, 2018, 10:10:07 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You apparently are unaware of the two large bullet fragments recovered from the limo that were matched to Oswald's Carcano.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305150
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305151

Tim,

When the FBI examined the limo, who actually found there bullet fragments?

Martin,

CE-567 was discovered by Thomas G. Mills, Chief Hospital Corpsman, assigned to White House doctor's office.

CE-569 was discovered by Paul Paterni, Deputy Chief of the Secret Service.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Martin Weidmann on February 11, 2018, 10:21:08 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Martin,

CE-567 was discovered by Thomas G. Mills, Chief Hospital Corpsman, assigned to White House doctor's office.

CE-569 was discovered by Paul Paterni, Deputy Chief of the Secret Service.


So, how do we know for certain those fragments came from the limo?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lloyd Morris on February 12, 2018, 01:13:33 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You don't need my permission, if you want to start another thread go ahead.

JohnM

I wasn't asking for your permission, just offering a fresh and uncluttered new thread to established that 95% of the witnesses to the assassination did not say the shots came from the direction of the TSBD as you say they did.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on February 12, 2018, 01:55:47 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I wasn't asking for your permission, just offering a fresh and uncluttered new thread to established that 95% of the witnesses to the assassination did not say the shots came from the direction of the TSBD as you say they did.


In each collation of all the Dealey Plaza earwitnesses from Conspiracy author through to the HSCA, the results are always the same only a miniscule 3 to 6% of all the earwitnesses heard a crossfire meaning about 95% heard the shots from only one direction and since we know that both Connally and Kennedy were hit from behind therefore ALL the shots came from the rear.

(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/pdf/Thompson.png)

(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/pdf/HSCA.png)

(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/pdf/McAdams.png)



JohnM
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lloyd Morris on February 12, 2018, 02:13:28 AM
Again John you are incorrect about what the witnesses to the assassination actually heard and saw. I will start a new thread and post the actual witnesses statements made at the time as to what they say they witnessed and will try to get it up tomorrow or the next day.

At that point you can attempt to rebut the actual statements of the witnesses or post more misleading pie charts lacking the actual documented statements to back them up.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on February 12, 2018, 02:33:14 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Again John you are incorrect about what the witnesses to the assassination actually heard and saw. I will start a new thread and post the actual witnesses statements made at the time as to what they say they witnessed and will try to get it up tomorrow or the next day.

At that point you can attempt to rebut the actual statements of the witnesses or post more misleading pie charts lacking the actual documented statements to back them up.





Quote
Again John you are incorrect about what the witnesses to the assassination actually heard and saw.

I've been doing this for some time and have read the relevant testimony whereas you are going to cherry pick a couple of earwitnesses while not considering the other 95%, Yawn.

Quote
I will start a new thread and post the actual witnesses statements made at the time as to what they say they witnessed and will try to get it up tomorrow or the next day.

Yeah, you do that because without evidence your opinion means nothing.

Quote
At that point you can attempt to rebut the actual statements of the witnesses or post more misleading pie charts lacking the actual documented statements to back them up.

What's misleading?, several independent groups added the up the numbers, there is no secret all the information is in the public domain.

Btw you do realize that Thompson refers to Josiah Thompson author of Six Seconds in Dallas and his numbers were for 94% of ALL the Earwitnesses who heard shots from only one direction.



JohnM
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on February 12, 2018, 02:50:31 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
More games. The majority of witnesses asked the simple question regarding their opinion on the origin of the shots said they were from the GK area.

We have gone over this many times with him, but he keeps repeating his falsehoods.



Who's "we"?

The Earwitnesses who thought the shots came from the Knoll thought ALL the shots came from the Knoll, but that's simply not possible and considering that Kennedy and Connally were both struck from behind, the only logical outcome is that all the shots were fired from behind by Oswald on the 6th floor.



JohnM
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 12, 2018, 03:10:17 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Again John you are incorrect about what the witnesses to the assassination actually heard and saw. I will start a new thread and post the actual witnesses statements made at the time as to what they say they witnessed and will try to get it up tomorrow or the next day.

At that point you can attempt to rebut the actual statements of the witnesses or post more misleading pie charts lacking the actual documented statements to back them up.

Lloyd, I look forward to participating in that thread. I would recommend that you just post the statements of ten witnesses at a time. We'll go through each of those and then you can post another ten. Just a suggestion.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lloyd Morris on February 12, 2018, 05:01:57 PM
Tim,

Good advice. Doing ten at a time will make it much easier to both post and discuss/debate. 

One of the many interesting things about the witnesses to the JFK assassination is the evolving nature of many of their statements. Some witnesses originally made statements and even gave testimony which was opposite to the WC conclusions.  Then over time they began to think they were mistaken and came to accept they must have been wrong. This is not an indication of something necessarily sinister or conspiratorial. The Newman's and Sam Holland are good examples.

While there is indisputable evidence from dozens of witnesses to the assassination that they were threatened or intimidated in an effort to get them to change their statements,  still others appear to have changed their minds about what they saw and heard as a result of the psychological phenomena of cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort or psychological stress that comes from simultaneously holding two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. The occurrence of cognitive dissonance is a consequence of performing an action which contradicts widely held beliefs, ideals or values; and also occurs when confronted with new information that contradicts previously beliefs, ideals, and values.


Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Royell Storing on February 12, 2018, 05:21:03 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Who's "we"?

The Earwitnesses who thought the shots came from the Knoll thought ALL the shots came from the Knoll, but that's simply not possible and considering that Kennedy and Connally were both struck from behind, the only logical outcome is that all the shots were fired from behind by Oswald on the 6th floor.



JohnM

 Relying on JFK Male EAR Witnesses that were roughly 40+ years old is a Big Mistake. Most of those, (Brehm, Willis, etc) served in WW 2. Having been subjected to the Extremely Loud Noises that come with battle renders their hearing ability subject to question. As to what these individuals may have claimed to have Viewed, (shooter(s)/Smoke/Gun/Gun Barrel/etc on 11/22/63 = A-OK.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 12, 2018, 11:50:54 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Oswald on the 6th floor fired 3 shots and that's that!

Maybe if you fall on the floor and kick your feet you'll be more convincing.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 12, 2018, 11:52:58 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
A. About 95% of the earwitnesses said all the bullets came from one direction, meaning no crossfire.

Witnesses are unreliable, except when they're not.

Quote
B. There were bullet fragments in the Limo that were exclusively matched to Oswalds rifle.

"fragments in the limo" - LOL
"exclusively matched" - LOL
"Oswald's rifle" - LOL
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 13, 2018, 12:04:21 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Wrong. Oswald's palm print was lifted off of the rifle on Nov 22, 1963 by Carl Day.

Of course it was.  He just forgot to take photos of the partial print before lifting it, forgot to cover it with cellophane, and forgot tell the FBI about it when the evidence was turned over.  And the traces of the print that he claimed were still visible on the rifle somehow disappeared by the time it got to Latona.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 13, 2018, 12:11:54 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You apparently are unaware of the two large bullet fragments recovered from the limo that were matched to Oswald's Carcano.

"Oswald's Carcano".  LOL.

And matched by a guy who lined up markings from the mutilated fragments in his mind, because they didn't line up under the microscope.  Fragments that had no documented chain of custody from Mills/Paterni to Frazier supposedly via Barlett and possibly Boring.  Who knows?  Who cares?  Can't even determine that these fragments ever went through a human body, but you just need to have faith.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 13, 2018, 03:12:32 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

One of the many interesting things about the witnesses to the JFK assassination is the evolving nature of many of their statements. Some witnesses originally made statements and even gave testimony which was opposite to the WC conclusions.  Then over time they began to think they were mistaken and came to accept they must have been wrong. This is not an indication of something necessarily sinister or conspiratorial. The Newman's and Sam Holland are good examples.

Lloyd, Someone else who quickly comes to mind is Mary Woodward. Her original statement places her in the Knoll column, but decades later she tried to explain that away.

Quote
While there is indisputable evidence from dozens of witnesses to the assassination that they were threatened or intimidated in an effort to get them to change their statements,  still others appear to have changed their minds about what they saw and heard as a result of the psychological phenomena of cognitive dissonance.

Indisputable evidence? I think you're overselling that one. I'm aware of a few witnesses who have claimed to have been intimidated by law enforcement officers or Warren Commission staff members. I don't know of any evidence that would support any of their claims. But I'm certainly open to anything that you could provide.

One witness who, decades later, claimed to have been intimidated was Victoria Adams. According to Barry Ernest, she stated that she felt intimidated during her deposition and when she later reviewed and signed a copy of the transcript of the deposition. She also said that she was spooked by James Leavelle when he showed up at her door to interview her in Feb 1964. She claimed that he lied to her when explaining why he had to interview her when she had already been interviewed earlier. He allegedly told her that their records had been destroyed by a fire.

Quote
Cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort or psychological stress that comes from simultaneously holding two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. The occurrence of cognitive dissonance is a consequence of performing an action which contradicts widely held beliefs, ideals or values; and also occurs when confronted with new information that contradicts previously beliefs, ideals, and values.

I don't believe I've ever seen it explained so clearly. Thank you.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on February 13, 2018, 03:27:41 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Tim,

Good advice. Doing ten at a time will make it much easier to both post and discuss/debate. 

One of the many interesting things about the witnesses to the JFK assassination is the evolving nature of many of their statements. Some witnesses originally made statements and even gave testimony which was opposite to the WC conclusions.  Then over time they began to think they were mistaken and came to accept they must have been wrong. This is not an indication of something necessarily sinister or conspiratorial. The Newman's and Sam Holland are good examples.

While there is indisputable evidence from dozens of witnesses to the assassination that they were threatened or intimidated in an effort to get them to change their statements,  still others appear to have changed their minds about what they saw and heard as a result of the psychological phenomena of cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort or psychological stress that comes from simultaneously holding two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. The occurrence of cognitive dissonance is a consequence of performing an action which contradicts widely held beliefs, ideals or values; and also occurs when confronted with new information that contradicts previously beliefs, ideals, and values.

Quote
Cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort or psychological stress that comes from simultaneously holding two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. The occurrence of cognitive dissonance is a consequence of performing an action which contradicts widely held beliefs, ideals or values; and also occurs when confronted with new information that contradicts previously beliefs, ideals, and values.


(https://s17.postimg.org/7suxmmvyn/Cognitive_dissonance.jpg)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Btw it's always a good idea to provide a citation for stuff you rip off the internet. Naughty naughty!



JohnM
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lloyd Morris on February 13, 2018, 09:44:53 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Lloyd,

Someone else who quickly comes to mind is Mary Woodward. Her original statement places her in the Knoll column, but decades later she tried to explain that away.

You are exactly right about Mary Woodward. She may be one of the best examples of cognitive dissonance among the ear and eye witnesses to the assassination. There are those who see darker forces behind fact that after thirty years of saying one thing, she reversed herself and agreed with the WC and FBI that the shots came from the TSBD instead of behind her near the grassy knoll. However she has repeatedly made it clear no one threatened or intimated her into changing her opinion.

Another simple and commonly accepted definition of cognitive dissonance is the mental stress resulting from the inability to hold two opposite thoughts or ideas in your mind at the same time. It seems far more likely Mary Woodward, after nearly three decades of swimming against the tide, chose to reduce two conflicting thoughts and settled on the government's official version of where the shots came from in the TSBD.

In a nutshell, Leon Festinger who first defined and wrote about cognitive dissonance, believed people will eventually choose to evaluate their opinions over time by comparing and contrasting them with those of others. Reading the statements of Mary Woodward explaining how she came to a different conclusion, cognitive dissonance and the need for closure makes a lot more sense than thinking fear and threats from some unknown source caused her to change her mind.

The fact that Mary Woodward changed her mind about the location of the source of the shots doesn't in my mind take any credibility away from her original statements and impressions of the assassination.

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Colin Crow on February 13, 2018, 10:06:24 AM
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,216.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,216.0.html)

Other psycological phenomena that may be considered.....

And the famous case in the RFK assassination.

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lloyd Morris on February 13, 2018, 04:33:06 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,216.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,216.0.html)

Other psycological phenomena that may be considered.....

And the famous case in the RFK assassination.


Colin,

Thanks for posting these links. You bring up a very good point with this.

In Mary Woodward's case, I think her change of opinion after 30 years as to the location of source
of the shots can likely be attributed to cognitive dissonance. This is just one statement she made about
the pressure and backlash resulting from her original statement where she said “…After acknowledging
our cheers he [President Kennedy] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-shattering noise coming from behind us and a little to our right."
[the grassy knoll area]

"I was labeled 'the first dissenting witness.' Others claimed that my clarification was made under pressure by everyone from my bosses at the newspaper to Dallas city fathers to the FBI. I was sickened to read that my words had been used as evidence in a book claiming that Kennedy had been killed by the Secret Service agent who was driving his car.

I have been called a _______ who sold out (to whom or for how much was never revealed) and a disgrace to my profession. The twisting of my words, the questioning of my motives and the assault on my integrity were unexpected, bewildering and hurtful. I learned that the best defense was a low profile. Since then, I have given three presentations: to my child’s junior high history class, to my local historical society and at a seminar that was hosted by Southern Methodist University on the 30th anniversary. I have written three or four articles on the subject for newspapers at which I later worked, and I appeared briefly in two documentaries. I have never received compensation."


In other interviews Mary Woodward [now Pillsworth] actually talks about wanting closure and making peace with this issue and how many of her friends and family [none of whom were witnesses to the assassination] say the shots must have come from the TSBD.

This is not to say other witnesses were not influenced [essentially conditioned to doubt their own eyes and ears] both directly by interactions with DPD, FBI and Warren Commission representatives and indirectly by mass media. You also do not have to believe individuals like Judyth Vary Baker who said LHO told her he had been trained in government mind control programs to know that our government was heavily involved in widespread, long term behavioral conditioning programs like MKUltra and MKDelta.  The government has admitted this and a lot more this beginning in 1975 in the Church Committee Hearings.

If you believe multiple shooters firing from different locations from around Dealy Plaza killed President Kennedy and also believe the US Government was involved before, during and after the event, then the assassination was essentially an intelligence operation. The use of effective and well documented psychological conditioning by the government against dissenting witnesses would not be unthinkable but rather expected.

According to information brought out in the Church Committee hearings and under the FOI Act, MKUltra was devised and funded by the CIA under Allen Dulles beginning in 1953.  The same Allen Dulles who was fired by JFK and put on the Warren Commission by LBJ. These and other CIA behavior control programs were closely associated with and overseen by the same people [like Allen Dulles and James Jesus Angleton] who ran the CIA's regime change operations. [the intelligence communities euphemism for assassination of foreign leaders] .


 
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Paul McBrearty on February 13, 2018, 06:57:01 PM
Amazing how people are so obsessed by this that they have nothing else to do with their lives only log in here 24-7 posting nonsense post after nonsense post. Do you people ever think about nothing else or talk about nothing else. This case was solved in 1963 - 64. Oswald the psychopath and cold blooded killer killed JFK all by himself. A blood thirsty malcontent murderer who had a taste for killing political figures. That's all there is to it. Now that's that.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 13, 2018, 07:03:21 PM
You can draw as many pie charts as you like John but look at my OP and dispute the points made about bullet holes, injuries etc.  These events point to double the number of shells in the TSBD and at least 2 directions of fire.

How does a bullet go in JFK's throat and not come out but was fired from behind?

How does a bullet fired from behind in a downward trajectory hit JFK near he right shoulder and come out his throat.  The throat was announced as an entrance wound remember.

How does a magic bullet cause all those injuries and lose less than 3 grains in weight and appear almost pristine in condition?

Why was the magic bullet planted?  Because on the day the MC didn't fire a single shot so it had to be planted.

How does a bullet go through the windscreen fired in a downward trajectory?

Carry on with your colour pie charts John preferably on someone's post that actually gives a **** about what you think. Your reputation goes before you.

Tim all yo say was blown out the water and dismissed many years ago mate.  Wake up
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 13, 2018, 07:04:51 PM
I think you just described yourself
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 13, 2018, 07:33:53 PM
Throat shot from the front though the windscreen which reduced its energy

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2017/10/26/20171027_jfkpara3.jpg (http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2017/10/26/20171027_jfkpara3.jpg)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 13, 2018, 07:50:03 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


In Mary Woodward's case, I think her change of opinion after 30 years as to the location of source
of the shots can likely be attributed to cognitive dissonance. This is just one statement she made about
the pressure and backlash resulting from her original statement where she said “…After acknowledging
our cheers he [President Kennedy] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-shattering noise coming from behind us and a little to our right."
[the grassy knoll area]

Lloyd, Continuing from where you left off:

"My first reaction, and also my friends', was that as a joke someone had backfired their car. Apparently, the driver and occupants of the President's car had the same impression, because instead of speeding up, the car came almost to a halt. Things are a little hazy from this point, but I don't believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around, as if they, too, didn't believe the noise was really coming from a gun...Then after a moment's pause, there was another shot and I saw the President start slumping in the car. "

I think that this is where cognitive dissonance comes into play for some on a number of issues. If there were three shots and they all came from the Grassy Knoll, how was it possible that Kennedy and Connally were both struck in the back?  Kennedy was really struck at the base of the neck, but that's another matter. The wound itself was one of entry. Also, if the first shot missed, then how does one get around the Single Bullet Theory?

Quote
The same Allen Dulles who was fired by JFK and put on the Warren Commission by LBJ.

Allen Dulles was not fired by JFK.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 13, 2018, 08:23:13 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Amazing how people are so obsessed by this that they have nothing else to do with their lives only log in here 24-7 posting nonsense post after nonsense post. Do you people ever think about nothing else or talk about nothing else. This case was solved in 1963 - 64. Oswald the psychopath and cold blooded killer killed JFK all by himself. A blood thirsty malcontent murderer who had a taste for killing political figures. That's all there is to it. Now that's that.

Don't let the door smack your ass on the way out.

Amazing that all you ever seem to contribute is insults and arrogance.  Troll.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This thread is a rehash of The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?. Same subject, different name. The contention that the Dallas Police constructed CE-142 is absolutely absurd. It's right up there with Big-foot, The Abominable Snowman, The Loch Ness Monster, Crop Circles, UFO'S, Alien's, The Enfield Haunting, The Banshee, Moving Statues, etc, etc. Oswald constructed the bag. End of story. Sorry but that's the way it was. I would expect this thread to be a long one though.  8)

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Amazing that people are sucked in by Doug Horne's tripe.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It doesn't take a genius or an expert to figure out that Horne hasn't got a clue what he is talking about. His assertions are completely outlandish conspiracy nonsense.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
LOL. What a load of nonsense. No intelligent person is going to fall for this rubbish. You're really far out Tony. The fairytale continues.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Was Lee Oswald the passenger in Whaley's Taxi?

Of course he was, only a fool would believe otherwise.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Only a fool would believe that my opinion which is actually a fact is not supported by the actual evidence and only a fool would believe that I would make a statement of fact without actual evidence. Your good at making unsupported opinions by twisting the actual evidence from reality into the fantasy realm in which you reside sir.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How should I put this, oh, THERE WERE NO TWO OSWALD'S. The two Oswald theory is absolute hogwash. Amazing that people are sucked in by this nonsense.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lloyd Morris on February 13, 2018, 08:47:09 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Lloyd, Continuing from where you left off:

Allen Dulles was not fired by JFK.

Forced resignation would probably be a better word. The White House released Dulles's resignation letter in the aftermath of the failed Bay of Pigs disaster. David Talbot who wrote an excellent biography of Allen Dulles The Devil’s Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America’s Secret Government, does a very good job explaining this issue along with the forced resignations of Richard Bissell and General Charles Cabell [the brother of the Mayor of Dallas, Earl Cabell who has since been proven to be a CIA asset]

"My first reaction, and also my friends', was that as a joke someone had backfired their car. Apparently, the driver and occupants of the President's car had the same impression, because instead of speeding up, the car came almost to a halt. Things are a little hazy from this point, but I don't believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around, as if they, too, didn't believe the noise was really coming from a gun...Then after a moment's pause, there was another shot and I saw the President start slumping in the car. "

                                                                                                             -Mary Woodward

"I think that this is where cognitive dissonance comes into play for some on a number of issues. If there were three shots and they all came from the Grassy Knoll, how was it possible that Kennedy and Connally were both struck in the back?  Kennedy was really struck at the base of the neck, but that's another matter. The wound itself was one of entry. Also, if the first shot missed, then how does one get around the Single Bullet Theory? "

Tim,

These are all excellent questions that need excellent answers and I am not sure I have them. To begin with I don't believe all the shots came from any one location.

If Mary Woodward was correct and the first shot missed [and likely hit James Tague near the triple underpass over a hundred yards away from the limousine carrying the President] then according to the WC, the second shot must have struck both JFK and Gov. Connelly [this is so called Magic Bullet or SBT depending on your point of view] and then the last bullet would have struck JFK in the head.

This would mean the Dallas doctors and nurses who thought the neck wound was one of entrance were wrong.  It would also require the three pathologists at the official autopsy to be incorrect when they probed and found JFK's shallow back wound did not exit JFK's body. They noted the end of this wound could be felt with their finger.

The three pathologists would also have to be wrong when they found the angle of the back would was 45 to 60 degrees downward [much steeper than the angle of approximately 19 degrees the FBI and WC concluded the angle from the 6th floor of the TSBD to the President at the time the bullet would have struck JFK and Connelly.] This would make it impossible for this bullet reverse course and then travel upwards to exit JFK's throat and then reverse course downward again and travel into Gov. Connally's back.

The list of things that would have had to occur for the Magic Bullet/Single Bullet theory to work is staggering to me. From the official report of  FBI Agents Sibert and O’Neill who documented the autopsy for the FBI:


"During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders [and obviously not JFK's neck] and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column. This opening was probed by Dr. HUMES with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees.

Further probing determined that the distance travelled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger. Inasmuch as no complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other area of the body as determined by total body X–Rays and inspection revealing there was no point of exit, the individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explain why they could find no bullets."


If the entrance wound in JFK back was shallow [less than the length of the pathologist's finger] and did not exit or pass through JFK body to come out the front of the throat, how could this bullet strike Gov. Connelly?
And what caused the small [4mm to 7mm] round, well demarcated wound in JFK's throat that Dallas Emergency Room doctors clearly described as a wound of entry?

Interesting enough, even the FBI had decided on a completely different version of these three shots than what the WC would eventually decided had happened. The FBI stood by their original conclusions for several months until they were forced to confront and deal with the injury of James Tague in the summer of 1964.

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ross Lidell on February 14, 2018, 12:47:18 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hahaha what's the new law of physics you just invented?  Oswald never fired a rifle that day as tests showed and they didn't find his print on the rifle before the chain of evidence was broken.  Read up on it

Fact: Suspects have been arrested and sent to trial for murder ... even when there were no "prints" on the murder weapon. The perpetrator wiped the weapon of prints! The jury accepted other evidence--including ownership and possession of the weapon--and found the defendant guilty.

The test you refer to (paraffin) often produces false positives and false negatives.

Also: Oswald's movements are not fully known from the encounter with Officer Baker (TSBD) to McDonald (Texas Theater). Lee Oswald could have quickly ducked into the restroom at the Theater to cool-down by washing his face with cold water. This would produce a negative paraffin test on his right cheek. There's no proof but it could have been done. He then deposited nitrates on his right hand when he pulled his gun on Officer McDonald. That explains the positive test for nitrates on his right hand. All within the realm of possibility.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 14, 2018, 01:00:44 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Forced resignation would probably be a better word. The White House released Dulles's resignation letter in the aftermath of the failed Bay of Pigs disaster. David Talbot who wrote an excellent biography of Allen Dulles The Devil’s Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America’s Secret Government, does a very good job explaining this issue along with the forced resignations of Richard Bissell and General Charles Cabell [the brother of the Mayor of Dallas, Earl Cabell who has since been proven to be a CIA asset]

Lloyd,

Dale Myers addressed Talbot's biography of Allen Dulles a couple of years ago. Here is an excerpt from that article:

"It didn’t take long for the true mastermind of the “JFK plot” to be revealed in October of this year courtesy of author David Talbot and his new book, “The Devil’s Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of the American Secret Government,” in which Talbot claimed that former CIA Director Allen Dulles orchestrated the Kennedy murder from a secret CIA facility in Virginia, where he remained for the weekend – during which time the “suspect,” Lee Harvey Oswald, was killed, and a vast machinery began to create the “lone gunman” myth that has dominated our history books to the present.

What was Kennedy’s crime for which a high profile, daylight murder was the only option? Answer: Kennedy allegedly forced Dulles to resign his CIA post in the wake of the Bay of Pigs disaster. (The reality though is that Kennedy didn’t want his resignation, and in fact initially resisted it, but after political pressure, Kennedy reluctantly accepted Dulles’ resignation, and even later defended their relationship.)

Never mind that Dulles was a longtime friend of the Kennedy family (and remained so even after his resignation), or that JFK surprised Dulles with a National Security Medal—the highest honor—after Dulles’ resignation, or that JFK wrote a heartfelt letter to Dulles the day after the presentation in which he penned, “I am sure you know you carry with you the admiration and affection of all of us who have served with you. I am glad to be counted among the seven Presidents in whose administrations you have worked, and I am glad that we shall continue to have your help and counsel…”

Even Robert Kennedy acknowledged that his brother liked Dulles, telling historian Arthur Schlesinger, “He [JFK] liked him [Dulles]—thought he was a real gentlemen, handled himself well. There were obviously so many mistakes made at the time of the Bay of Pigs that it wasn’t appropriate that he should stay on. And he always took the blame. He was a real gentleman. JFK thought very highly of him.”

Letters between the Kennedys and Dulles, available in the Dulles collection at Princeton University and at the JFK Library, give overwhelming evidence of their close friendship—a friendship that endured until the end of their lives. And has anyone bothered to query Dulles’s children about this alleged hatred between their father and the man he used to join on vacations in Palm Beach?"


http://jfkfiles.blogspot.ca/2015/11/fifty-two-years-of-coming-to-terms-with.html


Quote
These are all excellent questions that need excellent answers and I am not sure I have them. To begin with I don't believe all the shots came from any one location.

If Mary Woodward was correct and the first shot missed [and likely hit James Tague near the triple underpass over a hundred yards away from the limousine carrying the President] then according to the WC, the second shot must have struck both JFK and Gov. Connelly [this is so called Magic Bullet or SBT depending on your point of view] and then the last bullet would have struck JFK in the head.

Tague wasn't hit until the third shot.

Quote
This would mean the Dallas doctors and nurses who thought the neck wound was one of entrance were wrong.

I'm not aware of any nurses who said that they thought the neck wound was one of entrance. The doctors who thought it was later admitted that it could have very well have been an exit wound and that they were wrong to say that it was an entrance wound.


Quote
It would also require the three pathologists at the official autopsy to be incorrect when they probed and found JFK's shallow back wound did not exit JFK's body. They noted the end of this wound could be felt with their finger.

The wound was not probed with a finger. Think about it. The wound hole was 7 mm by 4 mm. My six month old grandson might be able to fit one of his fingers inside a hole that size but certainly none of the pathologists could.

Regarding the possibility of successfully probing from entry to exit; From the Clark Panel:

"The possibility that the path of the bullet through the neck might have been more satisfactorily explored by the insertion of a finger or probe was considered. Obviously the cutaneous wound in the back was too small to permit the insertion of a finger. The insertion of a metal probe would have carried the risk of creating a false passage in part, because of the changed relationship of muscles at the time of autopsy and in part because of the existence of postmortem rigidity."

http://www.jfklancer.com/ClarkPanel.html

From the HSCA FPP:

"(430) The panel believes that the difficulty which Drs. Humes, Finck, and Boswell experienced in trying to place a soft probe through the bullet pathway in President Kennedy’s neck probably resulted from their failure or inability to manipulate this portion of the body into the same position it was in when the missile penetrated. Rigor mortis may have hindered this manipulation. Such placement would have enabled reconstruction of the relationships of the neck and shoulder when the missile struck."


http://the-puzzle-palace.com/files/hscv7cII.htm


Quote
The three pathologists would also have to be wrong when they found the angle of the back would was 45 to 60 degrees downward [much steeper than the angle of approximately 19 degrees the FBI and WC concluded the angle from the 6th floor of the TSBD to the President at the time the bullet would have struck JFK and Connelly.] This would make it impossible for this bullet reverse course and then travel upwards to exit JFK's throat and then reverse course downward again and travel into Gov. Connally's back.

Three pathologists never found the angle of the back wound was 45 to 60 degrees downward. It was never recorded as such by them. They never actually measured the angle. It was a comment that Humes made during the autopsy. I believe that Humes later said that he guessed. Anyway, he was definitely wrong.

Quote
The list of things that would have had to occur for the Magic Bullet/Single Bullet theory to work is staggering to me.

It's not staggering at all when you know the real details of it.

Quote
From the official report of  FBI Agents Sibert and O’Neill who documented the autopsy for the FBI:

"During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders [and obviously not JFK's neck] and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column. This opening was probed by Dr. HUMES with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees.

Further probing determined that the distance travelled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger. Inasmuch as no complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other area of the body as determined by total body X–Rays and inspection revealing there was no point of exit, the individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explain why they could find no bullets."


If the entrance wound in JFK back was shallow [less than the length of the pathologist's finger] and did not exit or pass through JFK body to come out the front of the throat, how could this bullet strike Gov. Connelly?

Already dealt with above.

Quote
And what caused the small [4mm to 7mm] round, well demarcated wound in JFK's throat that Dallas Emergency Room doctors clearly described as a wound of entry?

The wound in JFK's throat was caused by the bullet exiting.

Quote
Interesting enough, even the FBI had decided on a completely different version of these three shots than what the WC would eventually decided had happened. The FBI stood by their original conclusions for several months until they were forced to confront and deal with the injury of James Tague in the summer of 1964.

The Tague injury wasn't a problem for the FBI or anyone else. If Tague was actually hit at all it was most likely by a fragment from the head shot. 
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lloyd Morris on February 14, 2018, 01:29:16 AM
Tim,

I will post a better reply tomorrow, we are just going out to dinner now.

Are you saying you really think JFK didn't fire Allen Dulles or the pathologists didn't probe JFK's back wound or James Tague wasn't hit by either pieces of curb or fragments of a bullet or that Tague's injury did not cause the FBI to change their original version of events to agree with the WC Magic Bullet/Single Bullet Theory?

Let me know if I am not understanding you correctly on all this.

Thanks,

Lloyd

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 14, 2018, 01:46:17 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Tim,

I will post a better reply tomorrow, we are just going out to dinner now.

Are you saying you really think JFK didn't fire Allen Dulles or the pathologists didn't probe JFK's back wound or James Tague wasn't hit by either pieces of curb or fragments of a bullet or that Tague's injury did not cause the FBI to change their original version of events to agree with the WC Magic Bullet/Single Bullet Theory?

Let me know if I am not understanding you correctly on all this.

Thanks,

Lloyd

Lloyd,

I'm saying that Dulles was not fired by JFK. Nor was he forced to resign.  No pathologist probed JFK's "back" wound with a finger. They apparently tried to place a soft probe through the bullet pathway in his neck but were unsuccessful due to reasons explained by the HSCA FPP. Tague, if he was hit at all, was likely hit by a bullet fragment from the head shot. The fragment might have struck the curb first before hitting him. Less likely is that it hit the curb and broke a piece of the concrete off which then hit him. Tague's injury did not cause the FBI to change their original version of events to agree with the WC Magic Bullet/Single Bullet Theory.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 14, 2018, 08:50:08 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Fact: Suspects have been arrested and sent to trial for murder ... even when there were no "prints" on the murder weapon. The perpetrator wiped the weapon of prints! The jury accepted other evidence--including ownership and possession of the weapon--and found the defendant guilty.

The test you refer to (paraffin) often produces false positives and false negatives.

Also: Oswald's movements are not fully known from the encounter with Officer Baker (TSBD) to McDonald (Texas Theater). Lee Oswald could have quickly ducked into the restroom at the Theater to cool-down by washing his face with cold water. This would produce a negative paraffin test on his right cheek. There's no proof but it could have been done. He then deposited nitrates on his right hand when he pulled his gun on Officer Baker. That explains the positive test for nitrates on his right hand. All within the realm of possibility.

Shame LHO wasn't subject to a trial as there was no case against him that would have lead to a conviction.

If me aunty had a pair of bollocks she'd be me uncle.  I could have been, I never looked
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ross Lidell on February 14, 2018, 11:27:10 PM
That's your opinion.

The case against Oswald in the murder of John F. Kennedy would have been so strong that any plea bargain attempt by the defense would have been rejected by the prosecution. Oswald would have been, tried, convicted and sentenced to be executed in the electric chair.

That's my opinion.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 15, 2018, 03:10:18 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Fact: Suspects have been arrested and sent to trial for murder ... even when there were no "prints" on the murder weapon. The perpetrator wiped the weapon of prints! The jury accepted other evidence--including ownership and possession of the weapon--and found the defendant guilty.

What does that have to do with the quality of the evidence in this case?

Quote
Also: Oswald's movements are not fully known from the encounter with Officer Baker (TSBD) to McDonald (Texas Theater). Lee Oswald could have quickly ducked into the restroom at the Theater to cool-down by washing his face with cold water. This would produce a negative paraffin test on his right cheek. There's no proof but it could have been done. He then deposited nitrates on his right hand when he pulled his gun on Officer Baker. That explains the positive test for nitrates on his right hand. All within the realm of possibility.

Oswald pulled a gun on Baker?  News to me!

Sure, anything's possible.  But is there any good reason to think that it happened this way?  Guinn found that it takes vigorous scrubbing with soap and water to remove nitrates.  When would he have had time before Brewer came in?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 15, 2018, 03:12:03 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Tague wasn't hit until the third shot.

That's not what Tague said.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 15, 2018, 04:27:42 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That's not what Tague said.

Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely-
............
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say definitely on which one.

It being the second of third shot rules out it being the first shot. A fragment from the head shot is the most reasonable explanation. I've yet to see anyone come close to providing a believable explanation for Tague being wounded by the second shot. You are welcome to try though.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tom Scully on February 15, 2018, 06:48:04 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely-
............
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say definitely on which one.

It being the second of third shot rules out it being the first shot. A fragment from the head shot is the most reasonable explanation. I've yet to see anyone come close to providing a believable explanation for Tague being wounded by the second shot. You are welcome to try though.

Tague himself could merely speculate.... June 4, 1964:
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Tague%20James/Item%2062.pdf
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ross Lidell on February 15, 2018, 06:55:06 AM
Thanks for pointing out my error John. Obviously the correct identity was: Office N.M. McDonald - "Captor of Oswald".
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 15, 2018, 07:13:18 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Tague himself could merely speculate.... June 4, 1964:
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Tague%20James/Item%2062.pdf

True. But I think we can safely rule out the first and second shots.  If it had been the first shot striking the curb , the damage to the curb would be very apparent .
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on February 15, 2018, 11:20:29 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
True. But I think we can safely rule out the first and second shots.  If it had been the first shot striking the curb , the damage to the curb would be very apparent .


http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Decker_Ex_5323.pdf

ASSASSINATION Or PRESIDENT KENNEDY
Officer Buddy Walther_ Deputy Sheriff Dallas County Sheriff's Office


Date Nov 22, 1963

-snip-

"...I immediately went to the triple underpass
on Elm Street in an effort to locate possible marks left by stray bullets.
While I was looking for possible marks, some unknown person stated to
me that something had hit his face while he was parked on Main Street,
the next lane south from Elm, as the traffic had been stopped for the
parade. Upon examining the curb and pavement in this vicinity I found
where a bullet had splattered on the top edge of the curb
on Main Street
which would place the direction of firing, high and behind the position
the Presidents car was in when he was shot..."


-snip-
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on February 15, 2018, 11:27:58 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely-
............
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say definitely on which one.

It being the second of third shot rules out it being the first shot. A fragment from the head shot is the most reasonable explanation. I've yet to see anyone come close to providing a believable explanation for Tague being wounded by the second shot. You are welcome to try though.

"I've yet to see anyone come close to providing a believable explanation for Tague being wounded by the second shot."



Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 15, 2018, 04:47:16 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely-
............
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say definitely on which one.

It being the second of third shot rules out it being the first shot. A fragment from the head shot is the most reasonable explanation. I've yet to see anyone come close to providing a believable explanation for Tague being wounded by the second shot. You are welcome to try though.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.

On the other hand, you definitively stated that it was the third shot.  What makes you more authoritative on this than the guy who was actually hit?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 15, 2018, 04:50:17 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
True. But I think we can safely rule out the first and second shots.  If it had been the first shot striking the curb , the damage to the curb would be very apparent .

Only if you pre-assume that there was a "first shot" that missed everything else.  This is a good example of making the evidence fit your argument.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 15, 2018, 06:59:28 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That's your opinion.

The case against Oswald in the murder of John F. Kennedy would have been so strong that any plea bargain attempt by the defense would have been rejected by the prosecution. Oswald would have been, tried, convicted and sentenced to be executed in the electric chair.

That's my opinion.

Jesse Curry's opinion actually!!

Perhaps you can cite this so strong case that you talk about and how you know more than the DPD did?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 15, 2018, 07:06:56 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely-
............
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say definitely on which one.

It being the second of third shot rules out it being the first shot. A fragment from the head shot is the most reasonable explanation. I've yet to see anyone come close to providing a believable explanation for Tague being wounded by the second shot. You are welcome to try though.

The head shot was travelling in the opposite direction.

Tague is saying that he didn't immediately think it was caused as a result of a gun shot which is reasonable.  The shots were fired within a few seconds so its not easy attributing which shot of the six (timed to make 3 or 4 sounds) caused indirectly his injury.

For these reasons he said he couldn't tell so it could well have been the first
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 15, 2018, 07:09:02 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Tague himself could merely speculate.... June 4, 1964:
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Tague%20James/Item%2062.pdf

Exactly Tom, I defy anyone to unexpectedly hear gun fire feel a pain to the face and keep count of the number of shots!!
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 15, 2018, 07:10:30 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Thanks for pointing out my error John. Obviously the correct identity was: Office N.M. McDonald - "Captor of Oswald".

One of your errors
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 15, 2018, 07:56:01 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Exactly Tom, I defy anyone to unexpectedly hear gun fire feel a pain to the face and keep count of the number of shots!!

LOL Where do you get such nonsense?

Tague was there. He heard 3 shots. He felt a sting. An officer had to point out that he was bleeding Seems to me he was focussed more on what he was seeing and hearing.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 15, 2018, 09:00:06 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
LOL Where do you get such nonsense?

Tague was there. He heard 3 shots. He felt a sting. An officer had to point out that he was bleeding Seems to me he was focussed more on what he was seeing and hearing.

What a load of rubbish Bill; even Tague wasn't sure and yet you know better
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 15, 2018, 09:24:57 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The head shot was travelling in the opposite direction.


... Fired from the storm drain inlet opening? Atop the Underpass? From the wooden fence? Dealey Plaza infield? Bill Greer?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 15, 2018, 09:30:48 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Decker_Ex_5323.pdf

ASSASSINATION Or PRESIDENT KENNEDY
Officer Buddy Walther_ Deputy Sheriff Dallas County Sheriff's Office


Date Nov 22, 1963

-snip-

"...I immediately went to the triple underpass
on Elm Street in an effort to locate possible marks left by stray bullets.
While I was looking for possible marks, some unknown person stated to
me that something had hit his face while he was parked on Main Street,
the next lane south from Elm, as the traffic had been stopped for the
parade. Upon examining the curb and pavement in this vicinity I found
where a bullet had splattered on the top edge of the curb
on Main Street
which would place the direction of firing, high and behind the position
the Presidents car was in when he was shot..."


-snip-

(https://i.imgur.com/oTpchEP.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/FcfbdZr.jpg)

A lead smear at best. Certainly not from a direct hit from full metal jacketed bullet at about 1800 f/s.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 15, 2018, 09:33:41 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.

On the other hand, you definitively stated that it was the third shot.  What makes you more authoritative on this than the guy who was actually hit?

Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely-
............
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say definitely on which one.

It being the second of third shot rules out it being the first shot. A fragment from the head shot is the most reasonable explanation. I've yet to see anyone come close to providing a believable explanation for Tague being wounded by the second shot. You are welcome to try though.


I'm only taking Tague at his word.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Michael Capasse on February 15, 2018, 09:36:34 PM
James Tague was a big problem to the WC.
How easy it would have been to have one non fatal shot each PREZ & GOV and then head shot as the third.
Tague destroys that and when his story is picked up by the AP in early summer 1964 the WC cannot ignore him

Tague was called July 23 1964..(WC on a scheduled timeline to be finished)
..and the below FBI memo (portion of pg. 3 unsigned) dated July 17th 1964
It references the photographers (Dillard & Underwood) that took the photos of the MH cover
But wait....The hit to the MH cover and turf has now turned into a hit to the curb and the "nick" cannot be found

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4111/34812429854_d57dfd29c1_z.jpg)

It could be the weather....
"...it should be noted that, since the mark was observed on November 23, 1963 there had been numerous rains which could have possibly washed away such a mark and also that the area is cleaned by a street cleaning machine about once a week which would also wash away such mark..."

But on August 05 1964 Shaneyfelt was able to find a mark [yeah..."Shadyguy"]
....so the initial mark on the MH cover & turf can now become the curb.....


(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4094/34844559173_18a5f6e626_z.jpg)

Shaneyfelt comes up with a series of photos that have nothing to do with the original Dillard & Underwood subject
..and the record is left with the mark on the curb that had been the ricochet that hit Tague

Once again Shaneyfelt is called back as late as Sept 1st to clarify 

Mr. Shaneyfelt: Yes.
Using photographs made by Mr. Underwood and Mr. Dillard in November 1963, either the 22d or 23d, of this mark on the curb, I went to Dallas and was successful in locating a mark. Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 29 contains the photographs used to locate the mark on the curbing on the south side of Main Street at the assassination site.
Photograph No. 1 of this exhibit is the photograph of the mark made by Mr. Underwood, the red arrow indicating the mark on the curb.
Photograph No. 2 is the photograph made by Mr. Dillard of the mark on the curb, and the red arrow again designates the mark.
Photograph No. 3 of Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 29 is a photograph that was made by Mr. Underwood by placing his camera on the mark and pointing it toward the Texas School Book Depository Building, and he stated he did this so that the resulting photograph could be used to relocate this mark on the curb should it ever be necessary.

Mr. Redlich: I gather that without that photograph taken by Mr. Underwood it would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible, to have located this mark, is that correct?
Mr. Shaneyfelt: It would have been more difficult. Mr. Dillard's photograph actually contained some background that was of value, and we would have found it without this, but this made it much easier. Photograph No. 3, which was made by Mr. Underwood, allowed us to go immediately within a foot to a foot and a haft of, the actual mark.

Tague always knew his story was a problem and the WC had to explain his hit:
"They had to go back and rewrite the Warren Commission," Tague said. "That's where the magic bullet came from. That's the only thing they could come up with. That's the only thing they could come up with. That one bullet went through two people."

..and the bullet that hit the MH cover becomes the missed shot that ricocheted off the curb and hit Tague
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 15, 2018, 09:39:37 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Only if you pre-assume that there was a "first shot" that missed everything else.  This is a good example of making the evidence fit your argument.

My original response here on the Tague hit was to Lloyd Morris who stated :

"If Mary Woodward was correct and the first shot missed [and likely hit James Tague near the triple underpass "

If you think that you can present a reasonable case that Tague was hit by the first shot then, by all means, go ahead.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 15, 2018, 09:39:53 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
A lead smear at best. Certainly not from a direct hit from full metal jacketed bullet at about 1800 f/s.

Did I miss something?  Who claimed it was a "direct hit from full metal jacketed bullet at about 1800 f/s"?  Wouldn't this be a matter of what was fired and from where?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 15, 2018, 09:40:58 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'm only taking Tague at his word.

Did he or did he not say that he remembered a shot after he was hit?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 15, 2018, 09:42:09 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
James Tague was a big problem to the WC.
How easy it would have been to have one non fatal shot each PREZ & GOV and then head shot as the third Tague destroys that and when his story is picked up by the AP in early summer 1964 the WC cannot ignore him

Tague was called July 23 1964..(WC on a scheduled timeline to be finished)
..and the below FBI memo (portion of pg. 3 unsigned) dated July 17th 1964
It references the photographers (Dillard & Underwood) that took the photos of the MH cover
But wait....The hit to the MH cover and turf has now turned into a hit to the curb and the "nick" cannot be found

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4111/34812429854_d57dfd29c1_z.jpg)

It could be the weather....
"...it should be noted that, since the mark was observed on November 23, 1963 there had been numerous rains which could have possibly washed away such a mark and also that the area is cleaned by a street cleaning machine about once a week which would also wash away such mark..."

But on August 05 1964 Shaneyfelt was able to find a mark [yeah..."Shadyguy"]
....so the initial mark on the MH cover & turf can now become the curb.....


(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4094/34844559173_18a5f6e626_z.jpg)

Shaneyfelt comes up with a series of photos that have nothing to do with the original Dillard & Underwood subject
..and the record is left with the mark on the curb that had been the ricochet that hit Tague

Once again Shaneyfelt is called back as late as Sept 1st to clarify 

Mr. Shaneyfelt.
    Yes.
    Using photographs made by Mr. Underwood and Mr. Dillard in November 1963, either the 22d or 23d, of this mark on the curb, I went to Dallas and was successful in locating a mark. Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 29 contains the photographs used to locate the mark on the curbing on the south side of Main Street at the assassination site.
Photograph No. 1 of this exhibit is the photograph of the mark made by Mr. Underwood, the red arrow indicating the mark on the curb.
Photograph No. 2 is the photograph made by Mr. Dillard of the mark on the curb, and the red arrow again designates the mark.
Photograph No. 3 of Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 29 is a photograph that was made by Mr. Underwood by placing his camera on the mark and pointing it toward the Texas School Book Depository Building, and he stated he did this so that the resulting photograph could be used to relocate this mark on the curb should it ever be necessary.

Mr. Redlich.
    I gather that without that photograph taken by Mr. Underwood it would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible, to have located this mark, is that correct?
Mr. Shaneyfelt.
    It would have been more difficult. Mr. Dillard's photograph actually contained some background that was of value, and we would have found it without this, but this made it much easier. Photograph No. 3, which was made by Mr. Underwood, allowed us to go immediately within a foot to a foot and a haft of, the actual mark.

Tague always knew his story was a problem and the WC had to explain his hit:
"They had to go back and rewrite the Warren Commission," Tague said. "That's where the magic bullet came from. That's the only thing they could come up with. That's the only thing they could come up with. That one bullet went through two people."

..and the bullet that hit the MH cover becomes the missed shot that ricocheted off the curb and hit Tague

Where did you copy and paste that BS from?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 15, 2018, 09:44:22 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Did he or did he not say that he remembered a shot after he was hit?

Did he not say that he could not and would not say definitively on which shot he was hit on?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 15, 2018, 09:46:52 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Did I miss something?  Who claimed it was a "direct hit from full metal jacketed bullet at about 1800 f/s"?  Wouldn't this be a matter of what was fired and from where?

Again, you are more than welcome to present your case for Tague having been hit by the first shot. Knock yourself out.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 15, 2018, 09:51:38 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Again, you are more than welcome to present your case for Tague having been hit by the first shot. Knock yourself out.

When did I ever say that Tague was hit by the first shot?  You stated as a fact that Tague wasn't hit until the third shot and had to ignore / minimize what Tague actually said in order to do it.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 15, 2018, 10:01:26 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
When did I ever say that Tague was hit by the first shot?  You stated as a fact that Tague wasn't hit until the third shot and had to ignore / minimize what Tague actually said in order to do it.

What Tague said really doesn't make any difference. I'm not entirely convinced that he was even hit at all. That's something that was made obvious in my reply to Lloyd. If Tague was hit all it was by the third shot. That is based on use of the evidence. But you don't give a damn about the evidence, and the reply was not directed at you anyway.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ross Lidell on February 15, 2018, 10:06:53 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Jesse Curry's opinion actually!!

Perhaps you can cite this so strong case that you talk about and how you know more than the DPD did?

Jesse Curry wrote a book trying to make some money from his "connection" to the tragic events of 22 November 1963.

Curry was both incompetent and grandstanding on Friday, Saturday and Sunday of the assassination weekend.

He knew well (from years of experience) that suspects are rarely "observed" by witnesses (at close distances) during the perpetration of their crimes. If Oswald had not been murdered by Jack Ruby: Curry would have been a witness for the prosecution and enjoyed the limelight. When interviewed by the press after Oswald's conviction: he would have expressed satisfaction at the jury's decision ... guilty.

If you disagree: explain what part Jesse Curry would have played in the defense's case to exonerate Oswald?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 15, 2018, 10:08:41 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Jesse Curry wrote a book trying to make some money from his "connection" to the tragic events of 22 November 1963.

Curry was both incompetent and grandstanding on Friday, Saturday and Sunday of November 1963.

He knew well (from years of experience) that suspects are rarely "observed" by witnesses (at close distances) during the perpetration of their crimes. If Oswald had not been murdered by Jack Ruby: Curry would have been a witness for the prosecution and enjoyed the limelight. When interviewed by the press after Oswald's conviction: he would have expressed satisfaction at the jury's decision ... guilty.

If you disagree: explain what part Jesse Curry would have played in the defense's case to exonerate Oswald?

There's nothing in Curry's book that would help exonerate Oswald.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 15, 2018, 10:13:56 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

What Tague said really doesn't make any difference. I'm not entirely convinced that he was even hit at all. That's something that was made obvious in my reply to Lloyd. If Tague was hit all it was by the third shot. That is based on use of the evidence. But you don't give a damn about the evidence, and the reply was not directed at you anyway.

Of course I give a damn about the evidence.  What a weird thing to say.  When someone makes an absolute statement of fact, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for proof.  It's obvious that your "use of evidence" includes a whole lot of assumptions, that's all.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Michael Capasse on February 15, 2018, 10:15:18 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Where did you copy and paste that BS from?

and what part is that?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 15, 2018, 10:26:49 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
and what part is that?

What? You mean it was all yours?

The bullet that hit the MH cover? LOL!
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Michael Capasse on February 15, 2018, 10:35:06 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
What? You mean it was all yours?

The bullet that hit the MH cover? LOL!

pardon me...at the manhole cover
(https://riversong.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/manhole-cover-2011-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 15, 2018, 10:36:40 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
pardon me...at the manhole cover
(https://riversong.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/manhole-cover-2011-2.jpg)

Oh yeah...like that's real convincing.  LOL!
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Michael Capasse on February 15, 2018, 10:49:19 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Oh yeah...like that's real convincing.  LOL!

Mr. FOSTER - I moved down the roadway there, down to see if I could find where any of the shots hit.
Mr. BALL - Find anything?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Found where one shot had hit the turf there at the location.
Mr. BALL - Hit the turf?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you see any marks on the street in anyplace?
Mr. FOSTER - No, a manhole cover. It was hit. they caught the manhole cover right on the corner and -
Mr. BALL - You saw a mark on the manhole cover did you?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes sir.

* Officer Foster also reported that a bullet struck the concrete part of the above mentioned manhole cover. It is not known if this was the same missile that made the dug-out hole in the grass a few feet from the manhole cover. The bullet might have skipped off the manhole cover and then embedded itself in the grass. Or, the mark on the concrete could have been made by a separate bullet, and thus would represent another miss fired from the same approximate location. The sewer cover and the hole in the turf were about 3-5 feet apart, and the latter was farther down the side of Elm Street (that is, it was slightly farther away from the TSBD than was the sewer cover). EXTRA BULLETS AND MISSED SHOTS IN DEALEY PLAZA  Michael T. Griffith 1996

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on February 16, 2018, 06:20:33 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

What Tague said really doesn't make any difference. I'm not entirely convinced that he was even hit at all. That's something that was made obvious in my reply to Lloyd. If Tague was hit all it was by the third shot. That is based on use of the evidence. But you don't give a damn about the evidence, and the reply was not directed at you anyway.

"What Tague said really doesn't make any difference. I'm not entirely convinced that he was even hit at all."

 :o
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Brown on February 16, 2018, 07:58:27 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.

On the other hand, you definitively stated that it was the third shot.  What makes you more authoritative on this than the guy who was actually hit?

Prove that Tague wasn't mistaken and that he really heard a shot after he was hit.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 16, 2018, 08:21:29 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
... Fired from the storm drain inlet opening? Atop the Underpass? From the wooden fence? Dealey Plaza infield? Bill Greer?

Fired from a gun that wasn't in the TSBD
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 16, 2018, 08:27:31 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
(https://i.imgur.com/oTpchEP.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/FcfbdZr.jpg)

A lead smear at best. Certainly not from a direct hit from full metal jacketed bullet at about 1800 f/s.

A full metal jacketed round from a bolt action rifle?  A FMJ bullet means another rifle apart from the Carcano and you know what that means..............
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 16, 2018, 08:33:13 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Jesse Curry wrote a book trying to make some money from his "connection" to the tragic events of 22 November 1963.

Curry was both incompetent and grandstanding on Friday, Saturday and Sunday of the assassination weekend.

He knew well (from years of experience) that suspects are rarely "observed" by witnesses (at close distances) during the perpetration of their crimes. If Oswald had not been murdered by Jack Ruby: Curry would have been a witness for the prosecution and enjoyed the limelight. When interviewed by the press after Oswald's conviction: he would have expressed satisfaction at the jury's decision ... guilty.

If you disagree: explain what part Jesse Curry would have played in the defense's case to exonerate Oswald?

Not in November 1963 he didn't when he said the DPD didn't have a case against LHO.

Years of experience from an "incompetent" person.......nice you're really convincing with that one!!

Too many "woulds and ifs" in your post make it not worthy of a response from me anyway.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 16, 2018, 08:39:04 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Mr. FOSTER - I moved down the roadway there, down to see if I could find where any of the shots hit.
Mr. BALL - Find anything?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Found where one shot had hit the turf there at the location.
Mr. BALL - Hit the turf?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you see any marks on the street in anyplace?
Mr. FOSTER - No, a manhole cover. It was hit. they caught the manhole cover right on the corner and -
Mr. BALL - You saw a mark on the manhole cover did you?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes sir.

* Officer Foster also reported that a bullet struck the concrete part of the above mentioned manhole cover. It is not known if this was the same missile that made the dug-out hole in the grass a few feet from the manhole cover. The bullet might have skipped off the manhole cover and then embedded itself in the grass. Or, the mark on the concrete could have been made by a separate bullet, and thus would represent another miss fired from the same approximate location. The sewer cover and the hole in the turf were about 3-5 feet apart, and the latter was farther down the side of Elm Street (that is, it was slightly farther away from the TSBD than was the sewer cover). EXTRA BULLETS AND MISSED SHOTS IN DEALEY PLAZA  Michael T. Griffith 1996

Thanks Michael was that MH cover on Elm in the direction of Main where Tague was standing?  Do you have a plan showing its location?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 16, 2018, 08:42:02 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Prove that Tague wasn't mistaken and that he really heard a shot after he was hit.

Bill, Tague says he wasn't sure.  Also have you heard of the speed of sound?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 16, 2018, 09:28:06 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Prove that Tague wasn't mistaken and that he really heard a shot after he was hit.

You mean the way Tim proved that Tague's injury was caused by a fragment from the head shot?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Brown on February 16, 2018, 09:35:19 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You mean the way Tim proved that Tague's injury was caused by a fragment from the head shot?

No.

You seem to believe that since Tague was the "guy who was actually hit", that he is correct about when he was hit, related to which shot.  Couldn't Tague be wrong, though?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 16, 2018, 09:46:23 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You mean the way Tim proved that Tague's injury was caused by a fragment from the head shot?

I've said that if Tague was actually hit at all it was most likely by a fragment from the head shot. A fragment from the head shot is the most reasonable explanation. I don't recall proving that Tague's injury was caused by a fragment from the head shot, or even claiming that I proved a fragment from the head shot caused his injury. If you would be so kind to direct me to where I proved that his injury was caused by a fragment from the head shot I'd be forever in your debt. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Brown on February 16, 2018, 09:48:52 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've said that if Tague was actually hit at all it was most likely by a fragment from the head shot. A fragment from the head shot is the most reasonable explanation. I don't recall proving that Tague's injury was caused by a fragment from the head shot, or even claiming that I proved a fragment from the head shot caused his injury. If you would be so kind to direct me to where I proved that his injury was caused by a fragment from the head shot I'd be forever in your debt. Thanks in advance.

Tim, you're talking to a guy who posted a photo of the lineup participants (taken almost six months after the lineups were conducted) in an attempt to show that they had no visible bruises at the time they participated in the lineups.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 16, 2018, 10:07:34 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Tim, you're talking to a guy who posted a photo of the lineup participants (taken almost six months after the lineups were conducted) in an attempt to show that they had no visible bruises at the time they participated in the lineups.

Sure, Mr. Inverted Caret
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 16, 2018, 10:08:17 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
No.

You seem to believe that since Tague was the "guy who was actually hit", that he is correct about when he was hit, related to which shot.  Couldn't Tague be wrong, though?

Could Tim?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 16, 2018, 10:11:01 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've said that if Tague was actually hit at all it was most likely by a fragment from the head shot. A fragment from the head shot is the most reasonable explanation. I don't recall proving that Tague's injury was caused by a fragment from the head shot, or even claiming that I proved a fragment from the head shot caused his injury. If you would be so kind to direct me to where I proved that his injury was caused by a fragment from the head shot I'd be forever in your debt. Thanks in advance.

You originally stated it as an absolute.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Tague wasn't hit until the third shot.

But if you're changing that to "most likely", then what in your mind makes that most likely?  I believe that you'll find it's based on a lot of unproven assumptions.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Brown on February 16, 2018, 10:11:40 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Could Tim?

You did not answer my question.  Couldn't Tague be wrong?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Brown on February 16, 2018, 10:14:12 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Sure, Mr. Inverted Caret

Predictable.

I've acknowledged, after seeing a more high resolution photo of Hosty's notes, that the image is an ampersand.

You haven't acknowledged that it made absolutely no sense whatsoever to post a photo of the lineup participants taken in mid-May of 1964 in an attempt to show whether or not these men had visible bruises in November of 1963.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 16, 2018, 10:25:33 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Predictable.

I've acknowledged, after seeing a more high resolution photo of Hosty's notes, that the image is an ampersand.

You haven't acknowledged that it made absolutely no sense whatsoever to post a photo of the lineup participants taken in mid-May of 1964 in an attempt to show whether or not these men had visible bruises in November of 1963.

I acknowledge that it made absolutely no sense whatsoever to post a photo of the lineup participants taken in mid-May of 1964 in an attempt to show whether or not these men had visible bruises in November of 1963.

Tim provided the evidence.  All you provided was bluster.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ross Lidell on February 16, 2018, 10:53:46 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Not in November 1963 he didn't when he said the DPD didn't have a case against LHO.

Years of experience from an "incompetent" person.......nice you're really convincing with that one!!

Too many "woulds and ifs" in your post make it not worthy of a response from me anyway.

Years of experience does not guarantee competence in every instance. Jesse Curry was unquestionably incompetent during the assassination weekend. This involved grandstanding when the world's press was watching him and then pandering to them by permitting Oswald to be "paraded" on two occasions.

-- The midnight (so-called) press conference.
-- The jail transfer that caused Oswald's death.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Zeon Wasinsky on February 17, 2018, 04:59:49 AM
What is really frustrating , is that some of the witness that say all the shots came from the Grassy Knoll area, were standing near the TSBD, while other witness who were near the Grassy Knoll, or near the JFK limo, say they think the shots came from TSBD.

You would think that at least there would some consistency in peoplen near the TSBD not hearing shots from GK and vic versa, people near GK not hearing shots from TSBD.

Apperently not.







Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Brown on February 17, 2018, 09:07:31 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I acknowledge that it made absolutely no sense whatsoever to post a photo of the lineup participants taken in mid-May of 1964 in an attempt to show whether or not these men had visible bruises in November of 1963.

Tim provided the evidence.  All you provided was bluster.

After you foolishly posted that photo of Ables, Perry and Clark, I pointed out that the photo was taken almost six months after the lineups were actually conducted.

John Mytton then asked when the photo was taken.  I answered that it was taken in mid-May of '64.

You then asked me for a cite... and I asked you a question which you didn't answer.  While I was waiting on you to answer, Tim Nickerson went ahead and provided the cite, which showed that the photo was taken on May 14th, 1964.

What's your point here, exactly?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 17, 2018, 05:13:24 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Years of experience does not guarantee competence in every instance. Jesse Curry was unquestionably incompetent during the assassination weekend. This involved grandstanding when the world's press was watching him and then pandering to them by permitting Oswald to be "paraded" on two occasions.

-- The midnight (so-called) press conference.
-- The jail transfer that caused Oswald's death.

Oh! I see; he was only incompetent on the assassination weekend.  That makes your argument so much more robust. NOT.

I really don't understand the point you're trying to make
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 17, 2018, 05:19:46 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've said that if Tague was actually hit at all it was most likely by a fragment from the head shot. A fragment from the head shot is the most reasonable explanation. I don't recall proving that Tague's injury was caused by a fragment from the head shot, or even claiming that I proved a fragment from the head shot caused his injury. If you would be so kind to direct me to where I proved that his injury was caused by a fragment from the head shot I'd be forever in your debt. Thanks in advance.

Tim, what a load of absurd rubbish.  The head shot came from the opposite direction.  Tagues injury was more likely caused by a small fragment of concrete or similar kicked u by the impact of one of the stray bullets.  It was a scratch but nevertheless The WC took it seriously as did the FBI rather than come up with an alternative scenario.  In fact they had to come up with the unbelievable guff of the magic bullet or more like the fantasy bullet.  This says to me that to have to resort to such a stupid story they knew for definite it could be proved one shot missed and that undid the whole lone shooter farce on its own.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 17, 2018, 05:53:45 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Tim, what a load of absurd rubbish.  The head shot came from the opposite direction. 


LOL! How did that happen and from where?

Quote

Tagues injury was more likely caused by a small fragment of concrete or similar kicked u by the impact of one of the stray bullets.


Just as likely it was from the missile fragmentation at the time of the head shot.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/tague/taguefragment-z313.png)

Quote

It was a scratch but nevertheless The WC took it seriously as did the FBI rather than come up with an alternative scenario.  In fact they had to come up with the unbelievable guff of the magic bullet or more like the fantasy bullet.  This says to me that to have to resort to such a stupid story they knew for definite it could be proved one shot missed and that undid the whole lone shooter farce on its own.

Not at all. That a CT "stupid story."

The Single-Bullet Theory arose out of the need to explain what happened to the bullet that exited intact from Kennedy's throat. There was no evidence an intact bullet struck anything in the limousine other than Connally.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 17, 2018, 06:18:41 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
LOL! How did that happen and from where?

Just as likely it was from the missile fragmentation at the time of the head shot.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/tague/taguefragment-z313.png)

Not at all. That a CT "stupid story."

The Single-Bullet Theory arose out of the need to explain what happened to the bullet that exited intact from Kennedy's throat. There was no evidence an intact bullet struck anything in the limousine other than Connally.

The Oracle comes through again. Thanks Jerry.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 17, 2018, 06:26:53 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
No bullet path through back and neck was confirmed through dissection of JFK.

There was an entry wound in the back of the neck and a wound in the throat. No bullet showed up on the autopsy x-rays. And then there's the  contusion of the apex of the right upper lobe of the lung which indicates the bullet passed over it.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 17, 2018, 06:33:42 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
A full metal jacketed round from a bolt action rifle?  A FMJ bullet means another rifle apart from the Carcano and you know what that means..............

It's when reading idiocy like that statement that I really miss the old emoticons.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 17, 2018, 06:38:45 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
No bullet path through back and neck was confirmed through dissection of JFK.

Sure, cutting JFK's neck halfway off would have pleased the Kennedy family upstairs, who wanted no unnecessary mutilation. While they're at it, why not dissect his face and ears into slices looking for potential fragment tracks?

When everything between the neck in-shoot and out-shoot signaled damage, it was obvious the wounds connected, but only after Humes learned there had been a bullet hole seen at the throat.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 17, 2018, 06:50:20 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Sure, cutting JFK's neck halfway off would have pleased the Kennedy family upstairs, who wanted no unnecessary mutilation. While they're at it, why not dissect his face and ears into slices looking for potential fragment tracks?

When everything between the neck in-shoot and out-shoot signaled damage, it was obvious the wounds connected, but only after Humes learned there had been a bullet hole seen at the throat.

"My problem is, very simply stated, we had an entrance wound high in the posterior back above the scapula. We didn't know where the exit wound was at that point. I'd be the first one to admit it. We knew in general in the past that we should have been more prescient than we were, I must confess, because when we removed the breast plate and examined the thoracic cavity, we saw a contusion on the upper lobe of the lung. There was no defect in the pleura anyplace. So it's obvious that the missile had gone over that top of the lung.
Of course, the more I thought about it, the more I realized it had to go out from the neck. It was the only place it could go, after it was not found anywhere in the X-rays. So early the next morning, I called Parkland Hospital and talked with Malcolm Perry, I guess it was. And he said, Oh, yeah, there was a wound right in the middle of the neck by the tie, and we used that for the tracheotomy. Well, they obliterated, literally obliterated--when we went back to the photographs, we thought we might have seen some indication of the edge of that wound in the gaping skin where the--but it wouldn't make a great deal of sense to go slashing open the neck."
-- James Humes' ARRB deposition.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 17, 2018, 07:41:36 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
What is the purpose of an autopsy?

Primarily, to determine the cause and manner of death.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 17, 2018, 07:54:34 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
An autopsy is frequently performed in cases of sudden death, where a doctor is not able to write a death certificate, or when death is believed to result from an unnatural cause. These examinations are performed under a legal authority (Medical Examiner or Coroner or Procurator Fiscal) and do not require the consent of relatives of the deceased. The most extreme example is the examination of murder victims, especially when medical examiners are looking for signs of death or the murder method, such as bullet wounds and exit points, [...]

Yup. Is there a point that you were trying to make with that?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 17, 2018, 07:59:05 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"My problem is, very simply stated, we had an entrance wound high in the posterior back above the scapula. We didn't know where the exit wound was at that point. [...]"

Next step?

Look at the x-rays.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 17, 2018, 08:20:33 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Showing?

Interior, posterior view of the right shoulder and right chest.

Interior, posterior view of the left shoulder and left chest.

Interior, posterior view of the chest.

Interior, posterior view of the abdomen and lower chest.

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 17, 2018, 08:24:43 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Indicating?

The absence of any bullet or bullet fragments.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 17, 2018, 08:24:56 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Showing?

Thanks for your posts Tom, don't mind about Jerry and Tim; one is the Organ the other is the Monkey.  They just try and take posts off topic without citing any proof.

You are correct about Autopsies but JFK's was illegal since it should have been carried out in Dallas but his body was subject to armed robbery by the SS.

Tim and Jerry are in denial since the head shot was from the front
The neck wound was from the front with no exit wound that's why it wasn't probed or dissected.  People giving and following orders
The back wound was nearer the shoulder blade than back of the neck
Some key early witness statements are key; early before they were either killed, deliberately discredited or not called to the WC

I was of the opinion that a bolt action rifle does not fire FMJ rounds.  I could be wrong there but I've seen that stated.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 17, 2018, 08:29:54 PM
Can we get back on topic?

Evidence for the number of shots / bullet strikes which exceed three.  If you disagree, fine, but cite evidence for all evidence of bullet marks, holes and injuries, finds.

Evidence for shots from other than the TSBD or ore than one location in TSBD

Evidence for full metal jacket rounds

Can someone with gun knowledge confirm in an FMJ can be fired from a bolt action rifle as opposed t a military automatic rifle?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 17, 2018, 08:34:35 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Yup. Is there a point that you were trying to make with that?

How about this point Timbo, JFK's autopsy was illegal.  His autopsy should have been carried out in Texas by law.  His body was stolen in an armed robbery by the SS.  Why?  So it could be performed by the military with people involved having to obey orders.  I wonder why?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 17, 2018, 08:36:17 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Look at the x-rays.

Which set?  The first or second set of x-rays?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 17, 2018, 08:39:26 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Can we get back on topic?

Evidence for the number of shots / bullet strikes which exceed three.  If you disagree, fine, but cite evidence for all evidence of bullet marks, holes and injuries, finds.

Evidence for shots from other than the TSBD or ore than one location in TSBD

Evidence for full metal jacket rounds

Can someone with gun knowledge confirm in an FMJ can be fired from a bolt action rifle as opposed t a military automatic rifle?

Lee, if you really want to get back on topic you can start by properly replying to my original response to your OP.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,233.msg4917.html#msg4917
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 17, 2018, 08:44:58 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How about this point Timbo, JFK's autopsy was illegal.  His autopsy should have been carried out in Texas by law.  His body was stolen in an armed robbery by the SS.  Why?  So it could be performed by the military with people involved having to obey orders.  I wonder why?

His autopsy was not illegal. The Secret Service officers suspected that the assassination was the result of a conspiracy. A conspiracy would have made it a Federal crime. They were justified under Title 18 , Part 1, Chapter 19 of the US Code in removing the body from Dallas.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 17, 2018, 08:46:23 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Which set?  The first or second set of x-rays?

Explain what you mean by "first or second set of x-rays".
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 17, 2018, 09:03:56 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
His autopsy was not illegal. The Secret Service officers suspected that the assassination was the result of a conspiracy. A conspiracy would have made it a Federal crime. They were justified under Title 18 , Part 1, Chapter 19 of the US Code in removing the body from Dallas.

Hahahahaha so a LNer uses a conspiracy when it suits him hahaha

They didn't suspect they knew, they drove him into the ambush, slowed down and removed protection and ignored rules about vehicle speed and high rise buidings with windows open.

Suspicion was not enough t lawfully do what they did that's why they had to threaten and aim to draw weapons
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 17, 2018, 09:05:46 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Lee, if you really want to get back on topic you can start by properly replying to my original response to your OP.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,233.msg4917.html#msg4917

I've got a better way Tim, ignore your nonsense and discuss with others who can produce evidence and answer questions in the OP
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Royell Storing on February 17, 2018, 09:15:14 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
His autopsy was not illegal. The Secret Service officers suspected that the assassination was the result of a conspiracy. A conspiracy would have made it a Federal crime. They were justified under Title 18 , Part 1, Chapter 19 of the US Code in removing the body from Dallas.

 The above is laughable. Unless the assassination occurred inside Germany during Hitler's reign, the SS did Not have the authority to deem themselves Judge/Jury and take possession/steal the body of JFK.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 17, 2018, 11:14:11 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
And the purpose of that would would be?

The purpose of what? Your question doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 17, 2018, 11:15:42 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hahahahaha so a LNer uses a conspiracy when it suits him hahaha

They didn't suspect they knew, they drove him into the ambush, slowed down and removed protection and ignored rules about vehicle speed and high rise buidings with windows open.

Suspicion was not enough t lawfully do what they did that's why they had to threaten and aim to draw weapons

You're being idiotic. There wasn't a conspiracy but they didn't know that shortly after 1 pm.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 17, 2018, 11:17:10 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've got a better way Tim, ignore your nonsense and discuss with others who can produce evidence and answer questions in the OP

Just as I suspected. You're not interested in discussing the evidence. You cannot do so in an intelligent manner.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 17, 2018, 11:22:02 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The above is laughable. Unless the assassination occurred inside Germany during Hitler's reign, the SS did Not have the authority to deem themselves Judge/Jury and take possession/steal the body of JFK.

Were the Secret Service Agents ever charged with illegally removing the body from Dallas? If not, then shut your yap. They were justified under Title 18 , Part 1, Chapter 19 of the US Code in removing the body from Dallas.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Michael Capasse on February 18, 2018, 01:16:51 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Were the Secret Service Agents ever charged with illegally removing the body from Dallas? If not, then shut your yap. They were justified under Title 18 , Part 1, Chapter 19 of the US Code in removing the body from Dallas.

Are you actually referring to this?
but I don't see a date before 1971

U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 18 › § 351
Congressional, Cabinet, and Supreme Court assassination, kidnapping, and assault; penalties

(f) If Federal investigative or prosecutive jurisdiction is asserted for a violation of this section, such assertion shall suspend the exercise of jurisdiction by a State or local authority, under any applicable State or local law, until Federal action is terminated.

(Added Pub. L. 91–644, title IV, § 15, Jan. 2, 1971, 84 Stat. 1891; amended Pub. L. 97–285, §§ 1, 2(a), Oct. 6, 1982, 96 Stat. 1219; Pub. L. 99–646, § 62, Nov. 10, 1986, 100 Stat. 3614; Pub. L. 100–690, title VII, § 7074, Nov. 18, 1988, 102 Stat. 4405; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXII, § 320101(d), title XXXIII, §§ 330016(1)(K), (L), 330021(1), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2108, 2147, 2150; Pub. L. 104–294, title VI, § 604(b)(12)(C), (c)(2), Oct. 11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3507, 3509; Pub. L. 112–87, title V, § 506, Jan. 3, 2012, 125 Stat. 1897.)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 18, 2018, 01:20:03 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

As I understand it the FMJ ammo was designed to inflict minimum damage to the victim (Hague Convention ). Oswald (ex-marine) would have known that. That was not his objective.


Childlike simplication.

Minimal damage was for soft tissue, not hard tissue. I don't think they can do much even today to make a metal bullet leave behind a clean contained pencil-like missile path through the skull.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Michael Capasse on February 18, 2018, 01:32:50 AM
from Conspiracy of Silence,
Dr. Charles Crenshaw [Parkland Doctor]

When the entourage had moved into the main hall, Dr. Earl Rose, chief of forensic pathology, confronted the men in suits. Roy Kellerman, the man leading the group, looked sternly at Dr. Rose and announced, “My friend, this is the body of the President of the United States, and we are going to take it back to Washington.”

Dr. Rose bristled and replied, “No, that’s not the way things are. When there’s a homicide, we must have an autopsy.”

“He’s the President. He’s going with us,” Kellerman barked, with increased intensity in his voice.

“The body stays,” Dr. Rose said with equal poignancy.

Kellerman took an erect stance and brought his firearm into a ready position. The other men in suits followed course by draping their coattails behind the butts of their holstered pistols. How brave of these men, wearing their Brooks Brothers suits with icons of distinction (color-coded Secret Service buttons) pinned to their lapels, willing to shoot an unarmed doctor to secure a corpse.

"My friend, my name is Roy Kellerman. I am special agent in charge of the White House detail of the Secret Service. We are taking President Kennedy back to the capitol.”

“You are not taking the body anywhere. There’s a law here. We’re going to enforce it.”

Admiral George Burkley, White House Medical Officer, said, “Mrs. Kennedy is going to stay exactly where she is until the body is moved. We can’t have that … he’s the President of the United States.”

“That doesn’t matter,” Dr. Rose replied rigidly. “You can’t lose the chain of evidence.”

For the second time that day, there was little doubt in my mind as to the significance of what was happening before me.

“Goddammit, get your ass out of the way before you get hurt,” screamed another one of the men in suits. Another snapped, “We’re taking the body, now.”

Strange, I thought, this President is getting more protection dead than he did when he was alive.

Had Dr. Rose not stepped aside I’m sure that those thugs would have shot him. They would have killed me and anyone else who got in their way. Dr. Kemp Clark wanted to physically detain the coffin, but the men with guns acted like tough guys with specific orders. A period of twenty-seven years has neither erased the fear that I felt nor diminished the impression that that incident made upon me.

They loaded the casket into the hearse, Jacqueline got into the backseat, placed her hand on top of the coffin, and bowed her head. As they drove off, I felt that a thirty-year-old surgeon had seen more than his share for one day.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 18, 2018, 02:03:45 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Are you actually referring to this?
but I don't see a date before 1971

U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 18 › § 351
Congressional, Cabinet, and Supreme Court assassination, kidnapping, and assault; penalties

(f) If Federal investigative or prosecutive jurisdiction is asserted for a violation of this section, such assertion shall suspend the exercise of jurisdiction by a State or local authority, under any applicable State or local law, until Federal action is terminated.

(Added Pub. L. 91–644, title IV, § 15, Jan. 2, 1971, 84 Stat. 1891; amended Pub. L. 97–285, §§ 1, 2(a), Oct. 6, 1982, 96 Stat. 1219; Pub. L. 99–646, § 62, Nov. 10, 1986, 100 Stat. 3614; Pub. L. 100–690, title VII, § 7074, Nov. 18, 1988, 102 Stat. 4405; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXII, § 320101(d), title XXXIII, §§ 330016(1)(K), (L), 330021(1), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2108, 2147, 2150; Pub. L. 104–294, title VI, § 604(b)(12)(C), (c)(2), Oct. 11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3507, 3509; Pub. L. 112–87, title V, § 506, Jan. 3, 2012, 125 Stat. 1897.)

I'm referring to 18 U.S.C. § 372. It was first enacted in the 1860s.

Conspiracy to Impede or Injure an Officer of the United States, 18 U.S.C. § 372
https://www.justice.gov/file/21261/download

"Unlike the more general conspiracy provision, 18 U.S.C. § 371, that was enacted in much its present form in 1867, § 372 did not even contain a requirement that an overt act be done in furtherance of the conspiracy before the conspiratorial conduct would become actionable. The broad purpose of protecting the Federal presence as fully as possible therefore supports a broad, rather than narrow, reading of the word “office.”
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ross Lidell on February 18, 2018, 10:56:11 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Oh! I see; he was only incompetent on the assassination weekend.  That makes your argument so much more robust. NOT.

I really don't understand the point you're trying to make

We are getting off-topic.

However ... Jesse Curry did not believe there was a conspiracy to kill JFK while he was Chief of Police in Dallas (until 1966). From Oswald's death to his (Curry's) retirement, he never mentioned a belief that there was a conspiracy to assassinate JFK.

Only when he wrote a book about the assassination in 1969--presumably to make money--did he claim doubts that Oswald was the assassin of JFK.

Curry's responsibility was to ensure the safe transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald from the City to the County Jail. Oswald was murdered while in custody of the Dallas PD. Chief Jesse Curry was incompetent.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 18, 2018, 12:03:17 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You're welcome, Lee.

I know their MO, no worries.

As I understand it the FMJ ammo was designed to inflict minimum damage to the victim (Hague Convention ). Oswald (ex-marine) would have known that. That was not his objective.

EDIT: Following the LN narrative that is...

Yes it was the hollow tipped ammo that was designed to cause explosive trauma on the target.  I suspect the head shot was a hollow tipped round which again points to conspiracy even without considering where it was fired from.


Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 18, 2018, 12:08:31 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You're being idiotic. There wasn't a conspiracy but they didn't know that shortly after 1 pm.

Of course they did, they even had one of their team in the DPD when the interrogation started.  I believe it was a chap named Kunkel.
Why did they do that?  That's not their jurisdiction either.

How do you explain the SS blatantly not fulfilling their security details for that trip?

The SS were part of the Treasury dept at that time!!  Can't imagine what a motive may have been
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 18, 2018, 12:12:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Childlike simplication.

Minimal damage was for soft tissue, not hard tissue. I don't think they can do much even today to make a metal bullet leave behind a clean contained pencil-like missile path through the skull.

Ok Einstein I don't see to much of an adult explanation here?

Why not answer the question as to whether a carcano can fire FMJ rounds.  Its not a trick question I would just like to know.

Hollow tipped ammo was used to cause explosive damage as per the head shot
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 18, 2018, 12:15:57 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
from Conspiracy of Silence,
Dr. Charles Crenshaw [Parkland Doctor]

When the entourage had moved into the main hall, Dr. Earl Rose, chief of forensic pathology, confronted the men in suits. Roy Kellerman, the man leading the group, looked sternly at Dr. Rose and announced, “My friend, this is the body of the President of the United States, and we are going to take it back to Washington.”

Dr. Rose bristled and replied, “No, that’s not the way things are. When there’s a homicide, we must have an autopsy.”

“He’s the President. He’s going with us,” Kellerman barked, with increased intensity in his voice.

“The body stays,” Dr. Rose said with equal poignancy.

Kellerman took an erect stance and brought his firearm into a ready position. The other men in suits followed course by draping their coattails behind the butts of their holstered pistols. How brave of these men, wearing their Brooks Brothers suits with icons of distinction (color-coded Secret Service buttons) pinned to their lapels, willing to shoot an unarmed doctor to secure a corpse.

"My friend, my name is Roy Kellerman. I am special agent in charge of the White House detail of the Secret Service. We are taking President Kennedy back to the capitol.”

“You are not taking the body anywhere. There’s a law here. We’re going to enforce it.”

Admiral George Burkley, White House Medical Officer, said, “Mrs. Kennedy is going to stay exactly where she is until the body is moved. We can’t have that … he’s the President of the United States.”

“That doesn’t matter,” Dr. Rose replied rigidly. “You can’t lose the chain of evidence.”

For the second time that day, there was little doubt in my mind as to the significance of what was happening before me.

“Goddammit, get your ass out of the way before you get hurt,” screamed another one of the men in suits. Another snapped, “We’re taking the body, now.”

Strange, I thought, this President is getting more protection dead than he did when he was alive.

Had Dr. Rose not stepped aside I’m sure that those thugs would have shot him. They would have killed me and anyone else who got in their way. Dr. Kemp Clark wanted to physically detain the coffin, but the men with guns acted like tough guys with specific orders. A period of twenty-seven years has neither erased the fear that I felt nor diminished the impression that that incident made upon me.

They loaded the casket into the hearse, Jacqueline got into the backseat, placed her hand on top of the coffin, and bowed her head. As they drove off, I felt that a thirty-year-old surgeon had seen more than his share for one day.

Great post Michael thank you
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 18, 2018, 12:25:01 PM
Getting back to the OP let take just the number of shots and ignore for a moment the locations shots were fired from.  Ignore for now the sequence of shots just look at the number from the evidence:

- Missed shot; Tague injury that even the WC and FBI had to take on board.
- JFK head shot
- JFK front throat shot
- JFK back shot near right shoulder
- Connallys back shot exiting through front of suit coat
- Connallys right wrist shot
- Connallys left thigh shot
- Bullet hole in limo windshield
- Significant bullet dent in windshield chrome frame
- Many way concrete surround bullet strike as opposed to the kerb strike (one resulted in Tagues injury)
- Bullet found in Parkland in real good condition after causing how many injuries.
- Bullet fragments found in carpet in front of limo and under jump seats


How can this be reduced to 3 shots only and one being a miss?

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Michael Capasse on February 18, 2018, 01:02:59 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'm referring to 18 U.S.C. § 372. It was first enacted in the 1860s.

Conspiracy to Impede or Injure an Officer of the United States, 18 U.S.C. § 372
https://www.justice.gov/file/21261/download

"Unlike the more general conspiracy provision, 18 U.S.C. § 371, that was enacted in much its present form in 1867, § 372 did not even contain a requirement that an overt act be done in furtherance of the conspiracy before the conspiratorial conduct would become actionable. The broad purpose of protecting the Federal presence as fully as possible therefore supports a broad, rather than narrow, reading of the word “office.”

Giving  effect  to  this  intention,  it  is  our  opinion  that  the  term  “offi­cer”  appearing  in  18 U.S.C.  § 372  includes both  permanent  and  tempo­rary,  full-and  part-time officers  and  employees  of  the  United  States.

are you calling the POTUS an "officer"? [that is what provides "The Honorable" in the title he appoints to others]
where is that he is an officer?  or better yet where does the code say President?


...or that Federal jurisdiction supersedes
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 18, 2018, 06:49:58 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Giving  effect  to  this  intention,  it  is  our  opinion  that  the  term  “offi­cer”  appearing  in  18 U.S.C.  § 372  includes both  permanent  and  tempo­rary,  full-and  part-time officers  and  employees  of  the  United  States.

are you calling the POTUS an "officer"? [that is what provides "The Honorable" in the title he appoints to others]
where is that he is an officer?  or better yet where does the code say President?


...or that Federal jurisdiction supersedes

18 U.S. Code § 372 - Conspiracy to impede or injure officer
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/372

"If two or more persons in any State, Territory, Possession, or District conspire to prevent, by force, intimidation, or threat, any person from accepting or holding any office, trust, or place of confidence under the United States, or from discharging any duties thereof, or to induce by like means any officer of the United States to leave the place, where his duties as an officer are required to be performed, or to injure him in his person or property on account of his lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or while engaged in the lawful discharge thereof, or to injure his property so as to molest, interrupt, hinder, or impede him in the discharge of his official duties, each of such persons shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six years, or both."
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 701; Pub. L. 107–273, div. B, title IV, § 4002(d)(1)(D), Nov. 2, 2002, 116 Stat. 1809.)

John F. Kennedy held the office of the President of the United States of America.

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Michael Capasse on February 18, 2018, 08:18:55 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
18 U.S. Code § 372 - Conspiracy to impede or injure officer
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/372

"If two or more persons in any State, Territory, Possession, or District conspire to prevent, by force, intimidation, or threat, any person from accepting or holding any office, trust, or place of confidence under the United States, or from discharging any duties thereof, or to induce by like means any officer of the United States to leave the place, where his duties as an officer are required to be performed, or to injure him in his person or property on account of his lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or while engaged in the lawful discharge thereof, or to injure his property so as to molest, interrupt, hinder, or impede him in the discharge of his official duties, each of such persons shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six years, or both."
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 701; Pub. L. 107–273, div. B, title IV, § 4002(d)(1)(D), Nov. 2, 2002, 116 Stat. 1809.)

John F. Kennedy held the office of the President of the United States of America.


"IF two or more persons"? "...imprisoned not more than six years?"
yea so?


also
or to induce by like means any officer of the United States to leave the place, where his duties as an officer are required to be performed, or to injure him in his person or property on account of his lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or while engaged in the lawful discharge thereof, or to injure his property so as to molest, interrupt, hinder, or impede him in the discharge of his official duties, each of such persons shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six years, or both."

The President is NOT an officer of the United States as referred to in Title 18
and so how does any of this allow them to take the body?...
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 18, 2018, 11:46:40 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

"IF two or more persons"? "...imprisoned not more than six years?"
yea so?

Conspiracy to impede or injure an officer of the United States is a Federal offense.

Quote
also
or to induce by like means any officer of the United States to leave the place, where his duties as an officer are required to be performed, or to injure him in his person or property on account of his lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or while engaged in the lawful discharge thereof, or to injure his property so as to molest, interrupt, hinder, or impede him in the discharge of his official duties, each of such persons shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six years, or both."

The President is NOT an officer of the United States
and so how does any of this allow them to take the body?...

What part of "duties of his office" don't you understand? The President is an officer of the United States. He is the Chief Executive Officer. He took an oath of office before assuming that role. He is the Commander in Chief of the US military. Give it up Capasse.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Michael Capasse on February 18, 2018, 11:56:37 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

What part of "duties of his office" don't you understand? The President is an officer of the United States. He is the Chief Executive Officer. He took an oath of office before assuming that role. He is the Commander in Chief of the US military. Give it up Capasse.


Officer of the United States
An officer of the United States is a functionary of the executive or judicial branches of the federal government of the United States to whom is delegated some part of the country's sovereign power. The term "officer of the United States" is not a title, but a term of classification for a certain type of official.

With a limited number of exceptions, all officers of the United States are appointed by the President and are subject to the approval of the Senate unless it chooses not to require such approval. Civilian officers of the United States are entitled to preface their names with the honorific style "the Honorable" for life; though in practice, this rarely occurs.

Officers of the United States should not be confused with employees of the United States; the latter are more numerous and lack the special legal authority of the former.     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer_of_the_United_States

US Code Title 18 is very specific throughout when referring to
"....Officers, Employees, and Elected Officials of the Executive and Legislative branches.." [esp Pres. & VP]

And are not referring to the POTUS in 18 U.S. Code § 372 - Conspiracy to impede or injure officer
or that Federal jurisdiction supersedes TX State law in the removal of this body in 1963...
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Michael Capasse on February 19, 2018, 12:23:04 AM
...killing or attempting to harm a President wasn't a Federal offense until 1965
18 U.S. Code § 1751 - Presidential and Presidential staff assassination, kidnapping, and assault; penalties

(Added Pub. L. 89–141, § 1, Aug. 28, 1965, 79 Stat. 580; amended Pub. L. 97–285, §§ 3, 4(a), Oct. 6, 1982, 96 Stat. 1220; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXII, § 320101(e), title XXXIII, §§ 330016(1)(K), (L), 330021(1), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2108, 2147, 2150; Pub. L. 104–294, title VI, § 604(b)(12)(D), Oct. 11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3507.)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 19, 2018, 05:02:46 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Officer of the United States
An officer of the United States is a functionary of the executive or judicial branches of the federal government of the United States to whom is delegated some part of the country's sovereign power. The term "officer of the United States" is not a title, but a term of classification for a certain type of official.

With a limited number of exceptions, all officers of the United States are appointed by the President and are subject to the approval of the Senate unless it chooses not to require such approval. Civilian officers of the United States are entitled to preface their names with the honorific style "the Honorable" for life; though in practice, this rarely occurs.

Officers of the United States should not be confused with employees of the United States; the latter are more numerous and lack the special legal authority of the former.     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer_of_the_United_States

US Code Title 18 is very specific throughout when referring to
"....Officers, Employees, and Elected Officials of the Executive and Legislative branches.." [esp Pres. & VP]

And are not referring to the POTUS in 18 U.S. Code § 372 - Conspiracy to impede or injure officer
or that Federal jurisdiction supersedes TX State law in the removal of this body in 1963...

That's from a Wikipedia article. I reject it as unreliable.

Here's something that you probably overlooked in the Memorandum for the Attorney General:

Objection to the multifaceted conspiracy bill, of which this provision was a part, centered on its application to conspiracies to overthrow the Government of the United States;

It's important to keep that in mind.

The President is the Chief Executive Officer of the United States as well as the Commander in Chief. Your argument is silly.  However, if we were to assume for the sake of argument that he was not, strictly speaking, an Officer of the United States, the removal of JFK's body from Dallas would still be covered under 18 U.S. Code § 372. As the Memorandum for the Attorney General noted, the terms "office" and "officer" have broad readings.

The term "officer",appearing in 18 U.S.C. § 372 includes both permanent and temporary, full- and part-time officers and employees of the United States.

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Michael Capasse on February 19, 2018, 10:10:03 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That's from a Wikipedia article. I reject it as unreliable.

Here's something that you probably overlooked in the Memorandum for the Attorney General:

Objection to the multifaceted conspiracy bill, of which this provision was a part, centered on its application to conspiracies to overthrow the Government of the United States;

It's important to keep that in mind.

The President is the Chief Executive Officer of the United States as well as the Commander in Chief. Your argument is silly.  However, if we were to assume for the sake of argument that he was not, strictly speaking, an Officer of the United States, the removal of JFK's body from Dallas would still be covered under 18 U.S. Code § 372. As the Memorandum for the Attorney General noted, the terms "office" and "officer" have broad readings.

The term "officer",appearing in 18 U.S.C. § 372 includes both permanent and temporary, full- and part-time officers and employees of the United States.

It is you with the silly argument ...CEO?  LOL !!!
I said he is NOT an officer as referred in the context of Title 18 

US Code Title 18 is very specific throughout when referring to
"....Officers, Employees, and Elected Officials of the Executive and Legislative branches.." [esp Pres. & VP]

What you are quoting makes no mention of specific Federal Jurisdiction over State or Local authorities and is specific to officers not Elected Officials
like below are specific group(s) provisions but also do not include the POTUS
U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 18 › § 351
Congressional, Cabinet, and Supreme Court assassination, kidnapping, and assault; penalties [specific group]

[but does suspend specific jurisdiction for these groups]
(f) If Federal investigative or prosecutive jurisdiction is asserted for a violation of this section, such assertion shall suspend the exercise of jurisdiction by a State or local authority, under any applicable State or local law, until Federal action is terminated.

18 U.S. Code § 372 - Conspiracy to Impede or Injure an Officer does neither
It does NOT refer to the POTUS nor does it assert Federal jurisdiction over TX State law in the removal of this body in 1963...
...that would be specifically 18 U.S. Code § 1751 - Presidential and Presidential staff assassination, kidnapping, and assault; penalties (1965)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Michael Capasse on February 19, 2018, 10:33:51 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That's from a Wikipedia article. I reject it as unreliable.


then reject FACT as in Title 18:
With a limited number of exceptions, all officers of the United States are appointed by the President

US Code Title 18 is very specific throughout when referring to
"....Officers, Employees, and Elected Officials of the Executive and Legislative branches.."


Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 19, 2018, 05:01:46 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It is you with the silly argument ...CEO?  LOL !!!
I said he is NOT an officer as referred in the context of Title 18 

US Code Title 18 is very specific throughout when referring to
"....Officers, Employees, and Elected Officials of the Executive and Legislative branches.." [esp Pres. & VP]

What you are quoting makes no mention of specific Federal Jurisdiction over State or Local authorities and is specific to officers not Elected Officials
like below are specific group(s) provisions but also do not include the POTUS
U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 18 › § 351
Congressional, Cabinet, and Supreme Court assassination, kidnapping, and assault; penalties [specific group]

[but does suspend specific jurisdiction for these groups]
(f) If Federal investigative or prosecutive jurisdiction is asserted for a violation of this section, such assertion shall suspend the exercise of jurisdiction by a State or local authority, under any applicable State or local law, until Federal action is terminated.

18 U.S. Code § 372 - Conspiracy to Impede or Injure an Officer does neither
It does NOT refer to the POTUS nor does it assert Federal jurisdiction over TX State law in the removal of this body in 1963...
...that would be specifically 18 U.S. Code § 1751 - Presidential and Presidential staff assassination, kidnapping, and assault; penalties (1965)

https://www.justice.gov/file/21261/download

Read it. I'm not going to hold your hand and lead you through it. Read it and try to understand what you read. Go through it a dozen times if need be.

The President takes an oath of office. He holds the highest office in the country.  He is also an employee of the United States.

Try all you want but you'll never get around the fact that the Feds were legally justified in removing JFK's body under 18 U.S. Code § 372.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Michael Capasse on February 19, 2018, 05:03:13 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
https://www.justice.gov/file/21261/download

Read it. I'm not going to hold your hand and lead you through it. Read it and try to understand what you read. Go through it a dozen times if need be.

The President takes an oath of office. He holds the highest office in the country.  He is also an employee of the United States.

Try all you want but you'll never get around the fact that the Feds were legally justified in removing JFK's body under 18 U.S. Code § 372.

US Code Title 18 is very specific throughout when referring to
"....Officers, Employees, and Elected Officials of the Executive and Legislative branches.."
which one is the POTUS?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 19, 2018, 05:05:43 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
US Code Title 18 is very specific throughout when referring to
"....Officers, Employees, and Elected Officials of the Executive and Legislative branches.."
which one is the POTUS?

The POTUS is all three.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 19, 2018, 08:58:15 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The POTUS is all three.

Haha and the SS knew it was a conspiracy because they were part of it Tim.  They even had an officer at the DPD why was that then?

What do you say to all the so called errors the SS made that day that they didn't make on preceding days?  And don't say JFK requested he be driven at too low a speed past high buildings with the windows open!!  For example!!
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Anderson on February 19, 2018, 10:12:26 PM
It's not possible to drive though a city avoiding high buildings with open windows.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 19, 2018, 11:15:19 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Haha and the SS knew it was a conspiracy because they were part of it Tim.  They even had an officer at the DPD why was that then?

They had an officer at the DPD? What does that even mean?

Quote
What do you say to all the so called errors the SS made that day that they didn't make on preceding days?  And don't say JFK requested he be driven at too low a speed past high buildings with the windows open!!  For example!!

What errors did the Secret Service make that day that they didn't make on preceding days?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 20, 2018, 10:55:41 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
His autopsy was not illegal. The Secret Service officers suspected that the assassination was the result of a conspiracy. A conspiracy would have made it a Federal crime. They were justified under Title 18 , Part 1, Chapter 19 of the US Code in removing the body from Dallas.

Please cite any evidence of the Secret Service using this justification at the time.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 20, 2018, 11:10:10 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Try all you want but you'll never get around the fact that the Feds were legally justified in removing JFK's body under 18 U.S. Code § 372.

You're blowing smoke.  18 U.S. Code § 372 doesn't say anything about seizing evidence.  Nor have you shown any evidence that federal investigative or prosecutive jurisdiction was ever asserted.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 20, 2018, 11:44:36 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You're blowing smoke.  18 U.S. Code § 372 doesn't say anything about seizing evidence.  Nor have you shown any evidence that federal investigative or prosecutive jurisdiction was ever asserted.

Conspiracy to assassinate the President was a federal crime under 18 U.S. Code § 372. That gives the Feds the authority to seize evidence. The Feds asserted their investigative or prosecutive jurisdiction when they removed JFK's body from Dallas.

 
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 21, 2018, 12:02:05 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Conspiracy to assassinate the President was a federal crime under 18 U.S. Code § 372. That gives the Feds the authority to seize evidence. The Feds asserted their investigative or prosecutive jurisdiction when they removed JFK's body from Dallas.

Talk about a circular argument.

Be specific.  What statute gave the feds the authority to seize evidence from a state investigation?  18 U.S. Code § 372 doesn't.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 21, 2018, 12:11:16 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Talk about a circular argument.

What statute gave the feds the authority to seize evidence from a state investigation?  18 U.S. Code § 372 doesn't.


18 U.S. Code § 372
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on February 21, 2018, 12:18:34 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

18 U.S. Code § 372



*Since, as indicated earlier in the text, in 1963 there was no federal jurisdiction over the murder of President Kennedy on a Dallas street (as opposed to on federal property), how did the FBI, a federal agency, even have jurisdiction to investigate the murder? Under Title 18 of Section 372 in the U.S. Code, it was a federal crime (no matter where committed) to conspire to murder any federal official on account of, or while he was engaged in, the lawful discharge of his duties, language that would have covered the murder of the president. And at the time of the assassination, in the eyes of many, including President Johnson, the possibility of a conspiracy was very real. However, the Warren Commission acknowledged that “once it became reasonably clear [they never identified this point in time] that the killing was the act of a single person, the State of Texas had exclusive jurisdiction…[and the FBI handled the investigation thereafter] only upon the sufferance of the local authorities.” (WR, pp.454, 456; 5 H 25, WCT Alan H. Belmont; Cushman, “Why the Warren Commission?” pp.478–479) The above in no way militates against the inherent power of President Johnson to have established, by executive order (11130), the Warren Commission, or that of Congress (by Senate Joint Resolution 137) to have empowered the Commission to issue subpoenas and grant immunity in carrying out its mandate. It only deals with the issue of whether Texas law enforcement or the FBI had investigative jurisdiction over the case
RHVB




JohnM
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 21, 2018, 09:21:43 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
RHVB

Not even the Bug-man tries to make the silly argument that 18 U.S. Code § 372 authorizes the seizing of evidence.  If the feds really thought they were acting under 18 U.S. Code § 372, they wouldn't have bothered just requesting that the Dallas PD send them all the other evidence on 11/22.

Tim is just making an after-the-fact rationalization.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 22, 2018, 08:41:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It's not possible to drive though a city avoiding high buildings with open windows.

In Dallas they could of voided Elm Street altogether.  You are correct though but the SS should be ensuring no windows are open and no one on roofs.  Shame they forgot that rule on that particular day
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 22, 2018, 08:45:45 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
They had an officer at the DPD? What does that even mean?

What errors did the Secret Service make that day that they didn't make on preceding days?

SA Kunkel he was trying to control things just like the SS did at Parkland Hospital with the armed robbery of the POTUS's body.

Erm what mistake did the SS make on 11/22? How about not protecting the POTUS from getting killed? Or even making it so easy to kill him?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 22, 2018, 08:48:14 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You're blowing smoke.  18 U.S. Code § 372 doesn't say anything about seizing evidence.  Nor have you shown any evidence that federal investigative or prosecutive jurisdiction was ever asserted.

Good point John but at least Tim's garbage refers to the events being a conspiracy!!
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 22, 2018, 08:49:44 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Conspiracy to assassinate the President was a federal crime under 18 U.S. Code § 372. That gives the Feds the authority to seize evidence. The Feds asserted their investigative or prosecutive jurisdiction when they removed JFK's body from Dallas.

They had no authority to break the chain of evidence nor did the FBI apart from their high cabal superiors
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 22, 2018, 08:53:54 PM
Tim,

I would be interested in you looking back to my OP and later attempts to get back on topic and stating how all the evidence of bullet damage, wounds, finds, fragments in and out of bodies an be attributed to 3 bullets.

There are 2 rules to this task:

1. There's no such thing as magic
2. The laws of physics must be adhered to
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 23, 2018, 12:53:28 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Tim,

I would be interested in you looking back to my OP and later attempts to get back on topic and stating how all the evidence of bullet damage, wounds, finds, fragments in and out of bodies an be attributed to 3 bullets.

There are 2 rules to this task:

1. There's no such thing as magic
2. The laws of physics must be adhered to

Ok Lee, let's start with this;

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Look at my original post and cite some evidence that there were only three bullets from one direction.  Then you can tell me about that new law of Physics you've discovered.

Lee, your original post doesn't actually cite any evidence that there were more than three bullets from more than one direction.

Quote
Only one bullet was attributed to the MC

You apparently are unaware of the two large bullet fragments recovered from the limo that were matched to Oswald's Carcano.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305150
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305151


Quote
and that was planted at Parkland

Planted by who and when? Why was it planted?

Quote
with no loss of mass that would indicate it hit anything at all. 

That is false. CE-399 was missing about 3 grains of mass.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Anderson on February 23, 2018, 12:55:15 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
In Dallas they could of voided Elm Street altogether.  You are correct though but the SS should be ensuring no windows are open and no one on roofs.  Shame they forgot that rule on that particular day

Fantasy.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 24, 2018, 03:05:53 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Fantasy.

Nope, its called doing their duty.  I think you are from fantasy island........the plane's coming boss!
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 24, 2018, 03:07:20 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Fantasy.

Nope! Incorrect!  Its called carrying out their duty.  Do you like living on fantasy island?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 24, 2018, 03:13:58 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Ok Lee, let's start with this;

Lee, your original post doesn't actually cite any evidence that there were more than three bullets from more than one direction.

You apparently are unaware of the two large bullet fragments recovered from the limo that were matched to Oswald's Carcano.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305150
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305151


Planted by who and when? Why was it planted?

That is false. CE-399 was missing about 3 grains of mass.

Tim,

My post was to ask how the "3 bullets" can account for all the damage, wound, fragments and finds from the events in DP on 11/22/63.

My subsequent posts contain links to cited evidence just as you state your links do.

How about suggesting how 3 bullets could possibly cause what was found.

Oh and its 2.4 grains.

The plant was because it matched the carcano and they didn't want to start adding up weights of all the fragments in and out of bodies for obvious reasons
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Anderson on February 24, 2018, 05:36:30 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Nope! Incorrect!  Its called carrying out their duty.  Do you like living on fantasy island?

Says the fantasy man who thinks all the windows in a city should be closed. Simple minded BS.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
In Dallas they could of voided Elm Street altogether.  You are correct though but the SS should be ensuring no windows are open and no one on roofs.  Shame they forgot that rule on that particular day

You just can't get your head around reality man. A President, or anyone else for that matter can't be safe from a would be killer if they mingle with the public in public.

Those incompetent SS agents

(http://williamlanday.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/JFK-in-Dallas.jpg)

(http://dallas1963book.com/images/gallery/1-JFK-dallas-motorcade-1960.jpg)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 24, 2018, 10:27:32 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Says the fantasy man who thinks all the windows in a city should be closed. Simple minded BS.

You just can't get your head around reality man. A President, or anyone else for that matter can't be safe from a would be killer if they mingle with the public in public.

Those incompetent SS agents

(http://williamlanday.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/JFK-in-Dallas.jpg)

(http://dallas1963book.com/images/gallery/1-JFK-dallas-motorcade-1960.jpg)

The reality was they broke their own rules in Dealey Plaza there's no question about that.  Go read up on it.  There are instances when the POTUS can overrule and mingle against advice but slowing down below their own minimum speed on a route that contravened their own rules (the turn from Main to Elm) and open windows in adjacent high rise buildings.

You stay in your fantasy no point reading the facts, that is if you can infact read?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Anderson on February 24, 2018, 10:31:46 PM
There you go again raving on about open windows in high buildings.
To conclude the SS should have ensured all windows in high buildings were shut is fantasy.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 25, 2018, 04:22:08 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


My post was to ask how the "3 bullets" can account for all the damage, wound, fragments and finds from the events in DP on 11/22/63.

My subsequent posts contain links to cited evidence just as you state your links do.

How about suggesting how 3 bullets could possibly cause what was found.

Lee,

I'm not sure what it is that you're looking for.

One bullet missed. Second bullet passed through Kennedy's neck and upon exiting began to tumble. It went on to strike Connally in the back somewhat side on. It passed through his torso shattering about 4 inches of his fifth rib and exited below the right nipple. It struck  Connally's wrist bone base first, fracturing the bone and then passed through and entered his left thigh.

The third bullet struck Kennedy in the back of the head. The pressure created by the passage of the bullet caused the massive rupture of the right side of the skull. Several large bullet fragments exited at the right front of the skull. Two of those fragments were found in the limo. The third one exited over the windshield .

Quote
Oh and its 2.4 grains.

Actually, if we use the average of the three WCC bullets weighed by Robert Frazier, the amount missing would be 2.55 grains.

Quote
The plant was because it matched the carcano and they didn't want to start adding up weights of all the fragments in and out of bodies for obvious reasons

Planted by who? How logical would it be to plant a bullet like CE-399 before knowing the extent of Connally's wounds or whether  large fragments, or even another bullet, would be found inside of Connally?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 25, 2018, 10:43:56 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There you go again raving on about open windows in high buildings.
To conclude the SS should have ensured all windows in high buildings were shut is fantasy.

Who's raving?  I'm not.  I'm not referring to every window in every high rise building you plum.  Just a small matter of the buidings adjacent to the pre-planned military style ambush at the very low speed turn from Main to Elm which was a breach of their own rules.  After all, you loons maintain that's where the 3 shots came from.

Rave away til your hearts content
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 25, 2018, 10:45:40 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Lee,

I'm not sure what it is that you're looking for.

One bullet missed. Second bullet passed through Kennedy's neck and upon exiting began to tumble. It went on to strike Connally in the back somewhat side on. It passed through his torso shattering about 4 inches of his fifth rib and exited below the right nipple. It struck  Connally's wrist bone base first, fracturing the bone and then passed through and entered his left thigh.

The third bullet struck Kennedy in the back of the head. The pressure created by the passage of the bullet caused the massive rupture of the right side of the skull. Several large bullet fragments exited at the right front of the skull. Two of those fragments were found in the limo. The third one exited over the windshield .

Actually, if we use the average of the three WCC bullets weighed by Robert Frazier, the amount missing would be 2.55 grains.

Planted by who? How logical would it be to plant a bullet like CE-399 before knowing the extent of Connally's wounds or whether  large fragments, or even another bullet, would be found inside of Connally?

My dearest Tim, Really?

Can I ask if you believe the WC account from cover to cover wit out exception or just the statements relating to the 3 bullets?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 25, 2018, 11:00:41 AM
Tim, please tell me what law of physics allows a bullet hitting JFK in the shoulder area of the back exit out the throat and drop with enough energy to hit connally so low whilst moving in an upwards trajectory?  See links below.

How about the throat wound was an entrance wound as the doctors stated originally and it came through the windshield bullet hole but had insufficient energy to pass right through the neck. 


http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jfk+assassination+shirt&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt287J88DZAhXHLsAKHR9DAXAQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=588#imgrc=zBiUt13cIKkk2M:&spf=1519556094390 (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jfk+assassination+shirt&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt287J88DZAhXHLsAKHR9DAXAQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=588#imgrc=zBiUt13cIKkk2M:&spf=1519556094390)

https://www.google.co.uk/search?biw=1366&bih=588&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=AZaSWpLnGMHwgAaX7674Cg&q=jfk+assassination+connallys+jacket&oq=jfk+assassination+connallys+jacket&gs_l=psy-ab.12...61937.67895.0.71148.21.14.0.5.5.0.125.1097.11j3.14.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..3.10.565...0j0i67k1j0i24k1.0.hVkGkWcfk58#imgrc=AjMDjPSNRsSy9M:&spf=1519556166478 (http://www.google.co.uk/search?biw=1366&bih=588&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=AZaSWpLnGMHwgAaX7674Cg&q=jfk+assassination+connallys+jacket&oq=jfk+assassination+connallys+jacket&gs_l=psy-ab.12...61937.67895.0.71148.21.14.0.5.5.0.125.1097.11j3.14.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..3.10.565...0j0i67k1j0i24k1.0.hVkGkWcfk58#imgrc=AjMDjPSNRsSy9M:&spf=1519556166478)

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 25, 2018, 11:04:12 AM
The big mistake the plotters hadn't bargained for was they planted the bullet at Parkland before they realised Tague's injury accounted for a bullet.  Boom!!  Shows how high the high cabal was!!  Magic bullet hahahahaha and some actually bought it!! that is at the time.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 25, 2018, 11:13:31 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Tim, please tell me what law of physics allows a bullet hitting JFK in the shoulder area of the back exit out the throat and drop with enough energy to hit connally so low whilst moving in an upwards trajectory?  See links below.

How about the throat wound was an entrance wound as the doctors stated originally and it came through the windshield bullet hole but had insufficient energy to pass right through the neck. 


http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jfk+assassination+shirt&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt287J88DZAhXHLsAKHR9DAXAQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=588#imgrc=zBiUt13cIKkk2M:&spf=1519556094390 (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jfk+assassination+shirt&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt287J88DZAhXHLsAKHR9DAXAQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=588#imgrc=zBiUt13cIKkk2M:&spf=1519556094390)

https://www.google.co.uk/search?biw=1366&bih=588&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=AZaSWpLnGMHwgAaX7674Cg&q=jfk+assassination+connallys+jacket&oq=jfk+assassination+connallys+jacket&gs_l=psy-ab.12...61937.67895.0.71148.21.14.0.5.5.0.125.1097.11j3.14.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..3.10.565...0j0i67k1j0i24k1.0.hVkGkWcfk58#imgrc=AjMDjPSNRsSy9M:&spf=1519556166478 (http://www.google.co.uk/search?biw=1366&bih=588&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=AZaSWpLnGMHwgAaX7674Cg&q=jfk+assassination+connallys+jacket&oq=jfk+assassination+connallys+jacket&gs_l=psy-ab.12...61937.67895.0.71148.21.14.0.5.5.0.125.1097.11j3.14.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..3.10.565...0j0i67k1j0i24k1.0.hVkGkWcfk58#imgrc=AjMDjPSNRsSy9M:&spf=1519556166478)

Lee, you really need to be  specific about what you want me to see in the two links.

The bullet was not moving in an upward direction at any time.

The throat wound was not an entrance wound , as the doctors later admitted.

There wasn't a hole in the windshield.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 25, 2018, 01:15:39 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Lee, you really need to be  specific about what you want me to see in the two links.

The bullet was not moving in an upward direction at any time.

The throat wound was not an entrance wound , as the doctors later admitted.

There wasn't a hole in the windshield.

If the bullet wasn't moving upwards how did it enter through the hole in his shirt and exit his throat??

Read my earlier post with the link to the White House garage inspection of the limo.

You haven't answered my question about the WC ??
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Anderson on February 25, 2018, 01:42:16 PM
What a tit.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on February 25, 2018, 01:48:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
What a tit.

We agree, you are.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Anderson on February 25, 2018, 01:49:19 PM
Go away and figure out who shot Kennedy.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on February 25, 2018, 02:03:41 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Go away and figure out who shot Kennedy.

Doing my best, John. Trying to decide who was in on the conspiracy.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 25, 2018, 02:10:35 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
What a tit.

Another uneducated comment from your limited vocabulary.  Nice debating skills John
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 25, 2018, 02:13:46 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Doing my best, John. Trying to decide who was in on the conspiracy.

Ray thanks for your post.  What's your views on my OP regarding how 3 bullets can account for all the injuries, finds, fragments and bullet damage etc?

Its interesting looking at the bullet holes in JFK's shirt and Connally's jacket.  Trying to see if the shooters discovered a new law of physics?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on February 25, 2018, 03:03:45 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Ray thanks for your post.  What's your views on my OP regarding how 3 bullets can account for all the injuries, finds, fragments and bullet damage etc?

Its interesting looking at the bullet holes in JFK's shirt and Connally's jacket.  Trying to see if the shooters discovered a new law of physics?

Lee, the feluccas can't answer the question.  All they come up with is "the jacket and the shirt bunched up exactly the same amount so the bullet hole could still have been in his neck".
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 26, 2018, 12:51:54 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If the bullet wasn't moving upwards how did it enter through the hole in his shirt and exit his throat??

You should try to be more specific Lee. I assume that you are referring to the hole in the shirt being 5 inches below the top of the collar. The hole in the shirt lined up with the hole in the jacket . Photos of JFK in the limo show that the jacket had bunched up. Since the hole in the shirt lined up with the hole in the jacket, that means that the shirt had bunched up as well.

Quote
Read my earlier post with the link to the White House garage inspection of the limo.

I did and I clicked on the link. It seems that, if you actually read the article there,  you never understood the content within it. Pamela Brown put to rest the claim that the windshield had a hole in it.

Quote
You haven't answered my question about the WC ??

If you are asking me whether I agree with everything in the 888 page Warren Report, then the answer is No.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 26, 2018, 04:13:59 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You should try to be more specific Lee. I assume that you are referring to the hole in the shirt being 5 inches below the top of the collar. The hole in the shirt lined up with the hole in the jacket . Photos of JFK in the limo show that the jacket had bunched up. Since the hole in the shirt lined up with the hole in the jacket, that means that the shirt had bunched up as well.


Don't tell me he's one of those tits who wants it to be "proven" that the shirt was bunched up.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/neckwound/bunch/love-field-cap-showing-bunch-at-nape.jpg)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on February 26, 2018, 04:22:46 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Don't tell me he's one of those tits who wants it to be "proven" that the shirt was bunched up.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/neckwound/bunch/love-field-cap-showing-bunch-at-nape.jpg)




(https://i.imgur.com/gtnOJz8.gif)
Please disperse nothing to see here


JohnM
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 26, 2018, 04:56:18 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Don't tell me he's one of those tits who wants it to be "proven" that the shirt was bunched up.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/neckwound/bunch/love-field-cap-showing-bunch-at-nape.jpg)

I would never tell you that Jerry.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on February 26, 2018, 06:16:45 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Don't tell me he's one of those tits who wants it to be "proven" that the shirt was bunched up.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/neckwound/bunch/love-field-cap-showing-bunch-at-nape.jpg)

Bunched or not, doesn't change the location of the bullet holes.

Rankin tells McCloy they have color photos of JFK's body from the autopsy
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/backwoundautopsyphotos.jpg)

Rankin tells an executive session of the WC that they have a picture that shows the wound in JFK's back is lower than the one in the front of his neck.
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/backwoundwc_1.jpg)

Report from the autopsy says Dr. Humes located a bullet hole in JFK, below the shoulder.
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/autopsybackwound.jpg)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 26, 2018, 06:59:46 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Bunched or not, doesn't change the location of the bullet holes.


That's right Gary.

"Examination of photographs of anterior and posterior views of thorax, and anterior, posterior and lateral views of neck (Photographs 3, 4, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 17, 18, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 38, 39, 40, 41). There is an elliptical penetrating wound of the skin of the back located approximately 15 cm. medial to the right acromial process, 5 cm. lateral to the mid-dorsal line and 14 cm. below the right mastoid process. This wound lies approximately 5.5 cm. below a transverse fold in the skin of the neck. This fold can also be seen in a lateral view of the neck which shows an anterior tracheotomy wound. This view makes it possible to compare the levels of these two wounds in relation to that of the horizontal plane of the body. A well defined zone of discoloration of the edge of the back wound, most pronounced on its upper and outer margins, identifies it as having the characteristics of the entrance wound of a bullet. The wound with its marginal abrasion measures approximately 7 mm. in width by 10 mm. in length. The dimensions of this cutaneous wound are consistent with those of a wound produced by a bullet similar to that which constitutes exhibit CE 399. At the site of and above the tracheotomy incision in the front of the neck, there can be identified the upper half of the circumference of a circular cutaneous wound the appearance of which is characteristic of that of the exit wound of a bullet. The lower half of this circular wound is obscured by the surgically produced tracheotomy incision which transects it. The center of the circular wound is situated approximately 9 cm. below the transverse fold in the skin of the neck described in a preceding paragraph. This indicates that the bullet which produced the two wounds followed a course downward and to the left in Its passage through the body."

http://www.jfklancer.com/ClarkPanel.html

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/neckwound/bunch/necktransitbunch.gif)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on February 26, 2018, 01:47:00 PM
So we have Humes whom saw the bullet hole below the shoulders.
We have Rankin who said they had photos of the hole in the back.
We have Dr Ebersole  "As we turned the body on the autopsy table there was a textbook classical wound of entrance upper right back to the right of the midline three or four centimeters to the right of the midline just perhaps inside the medial board to the upper scapula."
We have Glen Bennett, S.S. who saw a shot hit the boss about 4" down from the right shoulder.
We have James Jenkins  who saw a wound  10 centimeters lower than the tracheotomy site in the anterior neck.
We have Paul O'Connor "Finally we turned the body over, and there was a bullet wound-an entrance wound-in his back, on the right side of his spinal column. To emphasize where it was in proximity to the rest of his body: if you bend your neck down and feel back, you feel a lump and that's the seventh cervical vertebra."
We have the autopsy sheet which shows the wound in the back not the neck, We have the jacket and shirt where the holes show the bullet wound in the back.
We have the President's death certificate which places the wound at the third thoracic vertebra, which corresponds to the holes in the coat and shirt. This document was also marked "verified."

We have Tom Robinson from the Funeral home " There was  "wound in the back 5 to 6inches  below the shoulder, to the right of the backbone."

We have Floyd Riebe, one of the photographers who took pictures at the autopsy, recalls that the back wound was probed and that it was well below the neck .
We have  Former Bethesda lab assistant Jan Gail Rudnicki, who was present for much of the autopsy, says the wound was "several inches down on the back".

We have former Parkland nurse Diana Bowron, who washed the President's body before it was placed in the casket, has indicated that the back wound was two to three inches below the hole shown in the alleged autopsy photo of JFK's back, and this hole, by the HSCA's own admission, is about two inches lower than where the WC placed the wound. In other words, Nurse Bowron located the wound five to six inches below the neck, and at the same time challenged the authenticity of the alleged autopsy picture of the President's back. We will return to her account in a moment.

We have Clint Hill, the Secret Service agent who climbed aboard the President's car after the shooting, described the back wound to Hale Boggs under oath. “I saw an opening in the back, about six inches below the neckline to the right hand side of the spinal column.”

We have Sibert and On'Neill "Dr Humes located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the spinal column.



And to counter all the above the Feluccas have only the jacket and shirt bunched up exactly the same amount.  ROTFLMAO
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 26, 2018, 03:44:10 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
So we have Humes whom saw the bullet hole below the shoulders.
We have Rankin who said they had photos of the hole in the back.
We have Dr Ebersole  "As we turned the body on the autopsy table there was a textbook classical wound of entrance upper right back to the right of the midline three or four centimeters to the right of the midline just perhaps inside the medial board to the upper scapula."
We have Glen Bennett, S.S. who saw a shot hit the boss about 4" down from the right shoulder.


Does Bennett mean the shoulder line?

Quote

We have James Jenkins  who saw a wound  10 centimeters lower than the tracheotomy site in the anterior neck.
We have Paul O'Connor "Finally we turned the body over, and there was a bullet wound-an entrance wound-in his back, on the right side of his spinal column. To emphasize where it was in proximity to the rest of his body: if you bend your neck down and feel back, you feel a lump and that's the seventh cervical vertebra."


C7 sounds pretty good.

Quote

We have the autopsy sheet which shows the wound in the back not the neck, We have the jacket and shirt where the holes show the bullet wound in the back.


Not buying the bunching stuff?

Quote

We have the President's death certificate which places the wound at the third thoracic vertebra, which corresponds to the holes in the coat and shirt. This document was also marked "verified."

We have Tom Robinson from the Funeral home " There was  "wound in the back 5 to 6inches  below the shoulder, to the right of the backbone."


If Robinson meant the shoulder line, OK. If he meant below the shoulder body mass, then there's a problem. The wound occurred near the boundary of different body masses and people use the terms shoulder, neck and back interchangeably.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/neckwound/neckentry-anatomicsites.jpg)

Quote

We have Floyd Riebe, one of the photographers who took pictures at the autopsy, recalls that the back wound was probed and that it was well below the neck .
We have  Former Bethesda lab assistant Jan Gail Rudnicki, who was present for much of the autopsy, says the wound was "several inches down on the back".

We have former Parkland nurse Diana Bowron, who washed the President's body before it was placed in the casket, has indicated that the back wound was two to three inches below the hole shown in the alleged autopsy photo of JFK's back, and this hole, by the HSCA's own admission, is about two inches lower than where the WC placed the wound. In other words, Nurse Bowron located the wound five to six inches below the neck, and at the same time challenged the authenticity of the alleged autopsy picture of the President's back. We will return to her account in a moment.


Diana Bowron didn't mention the back wound in her WC testimony or contemporaneous newspaper articles. That she "remembered" it nearly two decades later with the assistance of kook Livingstone and an autopsy photo of the back--and then claimed the photo was wrong--suggests arm-twisting.

Quote

We have Clint Hill, the Secret Service agent who climbed aboard the President's car after the shooting, described the back wound to Hale Boggs under oath. “I saw an opening in the back, about six inches below the neckline to the right hand side of the spinal column.”


Neckline? Is that the hairline?

Quote

We have Sibert and On'Neill "Dr Humes located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the spinal column.


Are they talking about the shoulder line? Or below the shoulder mass? The critics never bother to figure it out. As long as it sounds like it's real low, so they just brainlessly go with it.

Quote

And to counter all the above the Feluccas have only the jacket and shirt bunched up exactly the same amount.  ROTFLMAO

If you can show a good-resolution picture (that excludes the Willis and Betzner photos) from the motorcade showing clearly the nape area of the jacket that doesn't show a bunch, be my guest.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on February 26, 2018, 04:02:26 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That's right Gary.

"Examination of photographs of anterior and posterior views of thorax, and anterior, posterior and lateral views of neck (Photographs 3, 4, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 17, 18, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 38, 39, 40, 41). There is an elliptical penetrating wound of the skin of the back located approximately 15 cm. medial to the right acromial process, 5 cm. lateral to the mid-dorsal line and 14 cm. below the right mastoid process. This wound lies approximately 5.5 cm. below a transverse fold in the skin of the neck. This fold can also be seen in a lateral view of the neck which shows an anterior tracheotomy wound. This view makes it possible to compare the levels of these two wounds in relation to that of the horizontal plane of the body. A well defined zone of discoloration of the edge of the back wound, most pronounced on its upper and outer margins, identifies it as having the characteristics of the entrance wound of a bullet. The wound with its marginal abrasion measures approximately 7 mm. in width by 10 mm. in length. The dimensions of this cutaneous wound are consistent with those of a wound produced by a bullet similar to that which constitutes exhibit CE 399. At the site of and above the tracheotomy incision in the front of the neck, there can be identified the upper half of the circumference of a circular cutaneous wound the appearance of which is characteristic of that of the exit wound of a bullet. The lower half of this circular wound is obscured by the surgically produced tracheotomy incision which transects it. The center of the circular wound is situated approximately 9 cm. below the transverse fold in the skin of the neck described in a preceding paragraph. This indicates that the bullet which produced the two wounds followed a course downward and to the left in Its passage through the body."

http://www.jfklancer.com/ClarkPanel.html

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/neckwound/bunch/necktransitbunch.gif)

Problem is the wound wasn't dissected at the original autopsy. In fact they initially missed the wound

in the front of JFK's throat.

And, as Clark explained to LBJ in this 1-21-67 recorded phone call, the autopsy photo that would have

shown the direction and path of the bullet was missing.

Here is the Attorney General, in a taped phone call, telling LBJ they don't have the photo of JFK's right lung.
The one Humes testified was taken.


http://www.jfklancer.com/Clark.LBJ.html (http://www.jfklancer.com/Clark.LBJ.html)

Date: 1-21-67 12:00 Noon

Time: 7 mins 25 secs at the end of a 8 mins 31 secs conversation

Phone Conversation between Acting Attorney General Ramsey Clark and President Lyndon Johnson
Re: Autopsy Photos

-snip-

"That is, there may be a photo missing. Dr. Humes, Commander and Naval doctor, testified before the Warren Commission
that this one photo made of the highest portion of the right lung."

-snip-

"It could be contended that that photo could show the course and direction the bullet that entered the lower part of the
neck and exited the front part."

-snip-

"We are left with one specific problem. Dr. Humes did testify before the Warren Commission there was such a photo [that]
we don't have."


-snip-

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on February 26, 2018, 04:20:55 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Does Bennett mean the shoulder line?


Brainless question
Quote
C7 sounds pretty good.
At least we agree on something.

Quote

Not buying the bunching stuff?
Brainless question.
Quote
If Robinson meant the shoulder line, OK. If he meant below the shoulder body mass, then there's a problem.

Why wouldn't he have said below the shoulder body mass?

Quote
The wound occurred near the boundary of different body masses and people use the terms shoulder, neck and back interchangeably.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/neckwound/neckentry-anatomicsites.jpg)
Nice graphics, Jerry. Pity they are immaterial.
Quote
Diana Bowron didn't mention the back wound in her WC testimony or contemporaneous newspaper articles.

She was talking about how she saw the body in the car in her WC testimony.

Quote
That she "remembered" it nearly two decades later with the assistance of kook Livingstone and an autopsy photo of the back--and then claimed the photo was wrong--suggests arm-twisting.
Just your opinion.
Quote
Neckline? Is that the hairline?

Another brainless question
Quote
Are they talking about the shoulder line? Or below the shoulder mass? The critics never bother to figure it out. As long as it sounds like it's real low, so they just brainlessly go with it.
You mean the same brainless way you accept the Specter's single bullet theory?
Quote

If you can show a good-resolution picture (that excludes the Willis and Betzner photos) from the motorcade showing clearly the nape area of the jacket that doesn't show a bunch, be my guest.

If you can show a good resolution photo of JFK's shirt bunching up whilst he was in the limo,  be my guest.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 26, 2018, 05:26:17 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Problem is the wound wasn't dissected at the original autopsy. In fact they initially missed the wound

in the front of JFK's throat.

And, as Clark explained to LBJ in this 1-21-67 recorded phone call, the autopsy photo that would have

shown the direction and path of the bullet was missing.

Here is the Attorney General, in a taped phone call, telling LBJ they don't have the photo of JFK's right lung.
The one Humes testified was taken.


http://www.jfklancer.com/Clark.LBJ.html (http://www.jfklancer.com/Clark.LBJ.html)

Date: 1-21-67 12:00 Noon

Time: 7 mins 25 secs at the end of a 8 mins 31 secs conversation

Phone Conversation between Acting Attorney General Ramsey Clark and President Lyndon Johnson
Re: Autopsy Photos

-snip-

"That is, there may be a photo missing. Dr. Humes, Commander and Naval doctor, testified before the Warren Commission
that this one photo made of the highest portion of the right lung."

-snip-

"It could be contended that that photo could show the course and direction the bullet that entered the lower part of the
neck and exited the front part."

-snip-

"We are left with one specific problem. Dr. Humes did testify before the Warren Commission there was such a photo [that]
we don't have."


-snip-


You kooks keep on ignoring the fact that the Parkland doctors did not see JFK's back and therefore did not see the neck/back entry wound. Therefore they initially (and prematurely, as it turned out) announced that the frontal throat wound was one of entry. 

They weren't doing any damn autopsy, they were entirely focussed on reviving the POTUS.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on February 26, 2018, 05:51:09 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You kooks keep on ignoring the fact that the Parkland doctors did not see JFK's back and therefore did not see the neck/back entry wound. Therefore they initially (and prematurely, as it turned out) announced that the frontal throat wound was one of entry. 

They weren't doing any damn autopsy, they were entirely focussed on reviving the POTUS.

I'm guessing they wouldn't have connected the 2 wounds without dissecting the bullet track like the

autopsy Dr.'s did.

And how would seeing the back wound change the appearance of the entrance wound in the front of JFK's

throat?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 26, 2018, 07:04:09 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You should try to be more specific Lee. I assume that you are referring to the hole in the shirt being 5 inches below the top of the collar. The hole in the shirt lined up with the hole in the jacket . Photos of JFK in the limo show that the jacket had bunched up. Since the hole in the shirt lined up with the hole in the jacket, that means that the shirt had bunched up as well.

I did and I clicked on the link. It seems that, if you actually read the article there,  you never understood the content within it. Pamela Brown put to rest the claim that the windshield had a hole in it.

If you are asking me whether I agree with everything in the 888 page Warren Report, then the answer is No.

Pahahaha you were spot on Ray. Tim was right on cue with the bunched up gag

I did read it plus plenty more regarding limo damage,  why did they take the evidence back to Washington and change the windshield? stone chip or bird xxxx perhaps?

I asked if you believed everything in the wc about 3 shots and all related accounts pertaining to my op i.e. how they were accounted for ad all injuries, finds, fragments and damage etc?

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 26, 2018, 07:06:04 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You should try to be more specific Lee. I assume that you are referring to the hole in the shirt being 5 inches below the top of the collar. The hole in the shirt lined up with the hole in the jacket . Photos of JFK in the limo show that the jacket had bunched up. Since the hole in the shirt lined up with the hole in the jacket, that means that the shirt had bunched up as well.

I did and I clicked on the link. It seems that, if you actually read the article there,  you never understood the content within it. Pamela Brown put to rest the claim that the windshield had a hole in it.

If you are asking me whether I agree with everything in the 888 page Warren Report, then the answer is No.

Did Connallys acket and shirt temporarily detach from their collars and bunch down?  Maybe a magic jacket and shirt??
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 26, 2018, 07:08:04 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Don't tell me he's one of those tits who wants it to be "proven" that the shirt was bunched up.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/neckwound/bunch/love-field-cap-showing-bunch-at-nape.jpg)

Nice surname Jerry suits you.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 26, 2018, 07:18:21 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'm guessing they wouldn't have connected the 2 wounds without dissecting the bullet track like the

autopsy Dr.'s did.

And how would seeing the back wound change the appearance of the entrance wound in the front of JFK's

throat?

Exactly Gary.  I notice how no LNer can comment on the missing photo of JFKs upper right lung!!  Because the back shot exting there hit connally.  This complies with the laws of physics and the rounds fired.  There was no entrance wound that could possibly have come out the front of his throat as the throat wound was an entrance wound.

They planted the Parkland bullt before they knew about Tague and messed the whole deal up hence the magic bullet fantasy that the LNers lap up.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on February 26, 2018, 07:26:47 PM
The shots in no particular order:

- JFK's back passing through right lung and through Connally shattering his wrist - from behind

- JFK's throat entrance with no exit fired from front through windshield

- JFK head shot, hollow tipped round from the front

- Connally's left knee from front ricochet off limo windscreen chrome surround from the front.  Leaves fragments in front footwells of limo and under jump seat.

- Miss from behind hit kerb resulting in debris causing Tagues minor injury

- Plant at Parkland before plotters aware of Tague's injury.

What do you think?  LNers need not apply as I've heard it all before!!
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 26, 2018, 09:09:57 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

C7 sounds pretty good.


Sounds good to me too. Who could have ever thought that Ray would eventually see the light?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 26, 2018, 09:16:47 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Here is the Attorney General, in a taped phone call, telling LBJ they don't have the photo of JFK's right lung.
The one Humes testified was taken.

"That is, there may be a photo missing. Dr. Humes, Commander and Naval doctor, testified before the Warren Commission
that this one photo made of the highest portion of the right lung."

"There may be a photo missing" is not the same thing as "there is a photo missing".


Quote
"We are left with one specific problem. Dr. Humes did testify before the Warren Commission there was such a photo [that]
we don't have."[/i]

Highlight the part of Humes' testimony in which he refers to the existence of a photo that is currently missing.

 (https://i.imgur.com/meyMlD1.gif)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 26, 2018, 09:23:44 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Did Connallys acket and shirt temporarily detach from their collars and bunch down?  Maybe a magic jacket and shirt??

Lee, what are you talking about?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on February 26, 2018, 09:31:37 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"There may be a photo missing" is not the same thing as "there is a photo missing".


Highlight the part of Humes' testimony in which he refers to the existence of a photo that is currently missing.

 (https://i.imgur.com/meyMlD1.gif)

The document from November 1966 says one thing.

Finck's after action report and Clark's taped phone call from January 1967 say something else.

Finck notes in his after action report that photos of the EOP wound in JFK's head, outside shot and inside

shot, which he requested be made, are not among the autopsy photos.

Odd don't you think that photos of the 2 wounds that were moved around are missing?

But you're Egyptian so that won't matter to you. You spend a lot of time in de-Nile.

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 26, 2018, 09:37:59 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The document from November 1966 says one thing.

Finck's after action report and Clark's taped phone call from January 1967 say something else.

Finck notes in his after action report that photos of the EOP wound in JFK's head, outside shot and inside

shot, which he requested be made, are not among the autopsy photos.

Odd don't you think that photos of the 2 wounds that were moved around are missing?

But you're Egyptian so that won't matter to you. You spend a lot of time in de-Nile.

I'm not familiar with Finck's after action report. If photos that he requested be made are not among the existing photos then either the photos were never taken or ,if they were, they never turned out.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 26, 2018, 10:19:41 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Brainless question

Brainless when you have no curiosity as to whether Bennett meant below the shoulder line or below the shoulder body mass. And it's brainless when one believes the clothing bunching didn't compromise the level of the wound in the the base of the back of the neck, but instead thinks the clothing on a near flat plane and hanging from a hanger is a better indication of the wound level.

Quote

Why wouldn't he have said below the shoulder body mass?


Because 5 to 6 inches below the shoulder body mass would mean the bullet struck the kidney. But if you're alright with that, then maybe you shouldn't be commenting on the wounds.

Quote

Nice graphics, Jerry. Pity they are immaterial.


No surprise you didn't take anything away from it.

Quote

She was talking about how she saw the body in the car in her WC testimony.


If she mentions seeing the back wound there, let us know.

Quote

Just your opinion.


Sure. Could be other reasons why Bowron got "inspired".

Quote

Another brainless question


Seems pertinent to explore what Hill meant by "about six inches below the neckline".

Quote

You mean the same brainless way you accept the Specter's single bullet theory?


Given that the serious 3D studys and ballistics re-creations (you know, the kind of forensic analysis that critics can't and won't do) tend to support the salient features of the theory, I'm going with that for now.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/apg2vb.jpg)

"Err" Dummkopf can't even figure out how to get the rifle out the window.

Quote

If you can show a good resolution photo of JFK's shirt bunching up whilst he was in the limo,  be my guest.

How we gonna do that, Ray? X-ray specs? The jacket bunch is the only visible indication we have that the clothing was raised up at the nape area. You can figure that one out, can't you?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 26, 2018, 11:26:03 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You kooks keep on ignoring the fact that the Parkland doctors did not see JFK's back and therefore did not see the neck/back entry wound.

Speaking for the doctors now, are you?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Paul Ernst on February 26, 2018, 11:34:39 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Speaking for the doctors now, are you?

He can either measure a armpit from the ground up.

He must be Doctor Cheater Feelgood!!

Even not competent to draw a box in the right size.


(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4765/39391724475_58078e5b6d_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on February 27, 2018, 05:42:39 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'm not familiar with Finck's after action report. If photos that he requested be made are not among the existing photos then either the photos were never taken or ,if they were, they never turned out.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/finck2_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on February 27, 2018, 10:20:45 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Brainless when you have no curiosity as to whether Bennett meant below the shoulder line or below the shoulder body mass. And it's brainless when one believes the clothing bunching didn't compromise the level of the wound in the the base of the back of the neck, but instead thinks the clothing on a near flat plane and hanging from a hanger is a better indication of the wound level.

It's a brainless question because we can't ask him what he meant.

Quote

Because 5 to 6 inches below the shoulder body mass would mean the bullet struck the kidney. But if you're alright with that, then maybe you shouldn't be commenting on the wounds.

He said it was 5 to 6inches below the shoulder because that's what he saw. Stop making up stories.
Quote
No surprise you didn't take anything away from it.
Posting immaterial illustrations is your usual MO.
Quote

If she mentions seeing the back wound there, let us know.

If you have read her testimony you know she didn't mention it, because she wasn't asked. Usual rule of questioning by the WC, don't ask a question you don't want the answer to.
Quote
Sure. Could be other reasons why Bowron got "inspired".

So your saying Boron was lying ?
Quote
Seems pertinent to explore what Hill meant by "about six inches below the neckline".

Certainly pertinent if we could ask him but  brainless question because we can't.

Quote

Given that the serious 3D studys and ballistics re-creations (you know, the kind of forensic analysis that critics can't and won't do) tend to support the salient features of the theory,

 "Dale Myers" RONTFLMAO. I'm going with that for now.
Of course you are that's all you have.
Quote
(http://i66.tinypic.com/apg2vb.jpg)


 "Dale Myers" ROTFLMAO.

Quote

"Err" Dummkopf can't even figure out how to get the rifle out the window.

What  on earth are you rambling about now? You been at the Jack Daniels again?

Quote

How we gonna do that, Ray? X-ray specs?
Probably the same way you want answer to the questions about Bennett and Hill. Try a seance.
Quote
The jacket bunch is the only visible indication we have that the clothing was raised up at the nape area. You can figure that one out, can't you?
So  typically of a Felucca you say just because we can't prove the shirt bunched up, means it did, because it must have!

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on February 28, 2018, 06:42:01 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

"There may be a photo missing" is not the same thing as "there is a photo missing".


Highlight the part of Humes' testimony in which he refers to the existence of a photo that is currently missing.

(https://i.imgur.com/meyMlD1.gif)


"There may be a photo missing" is not the same thing as "there is a photo missing"

It does mean it's missing when it's followed by:

"We are left with one specific problem. Dr. Humes did testify before the Warren Commission there was such a photo [that] we don't have."

================================================

Here is the Attorney General, in a taped phone call, telling LBJ they don't have the photo of JFK's right lung.
The one Humes testified was taken.


http://www.jfklancer.com/Clark.LBJ.html (http://www.jfklancer.com/Clark.LBJ.html)

Date: 1-21-67 12:00 Noon

Time: 7 mins 25 secs at the end of a 8 mins 31 secs conversation

Phone Conversation between Acting Attorney General Ramsey Clark and President Lyndon Johnson
Re: Autopsy Photos

-snip-

"That is, there may be a photo missing. Dr. Humes, Commander and Naval doctor, testified before the Warren Commission
that this one photo made of the highest portion of the right lung."

-snip-

"It could be contended that that photo could show the course and direction the bullet that entered the lower part of the
neck and exited the front part."

-snip-

"We are left with one specific problem. Dr. Humes did testify before the Warren Commission there was such a photo [that]
we don't have."


-snip-


Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Organ on February 28, 2018, 03:46:11 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
He can either measure a armpit from the ground up.


You know how stupid that sounds in English?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 28, 2018, 05:49:09 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/finck2_1.jpg)

Finck thought (wasn't sure) that they had photographed the inside and outside of the skull showing the hole of entry from both sides. He seemed to think that the two blank 4 x 5 color sheets would have been those photos.

"My conclusion is that the photos and x-rays of the autopsy of President Kennedy do not modify our conclusions stated in the autopsy report."
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 28, 2018, 05:58:13 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You know how stupid that sounds in English?

Not to mention the constant 'yelling'
Can you imagine debating these characters face-to-face?

Some time ago I suggested to Ernie that he write his posts in his native tongue then use Google Translate to produce relatively good English.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 28, 2018, 06:12:18 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Have you posted one piece of evidence since you showed up last month?

The joke on you characters is that Kennedy knew it would be easy to get to him, and the irony is that he used the example of 'a nut in a tall building with a high-powered rifle'

Does that scenario ring a bell, Rob?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on February 28, 2018, 07:06:21 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The joke on you characters is that Kennedy knew it would be easy to get to him, and the irony is that he used the example of 'a nut in a tall building with a high-powered rifle'

Does that scenario ring a bell, Rob?

Well, their conclusion from JFK's comment is that he was obviously in on it too.

Yes, that's tongue in cheek (I guess I had to add that) but this is how they think, how they evaluate evidence. There are no innocent explanations. Not all but unfortunately too many.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 01, 2018, 01:13:31 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Finck thought (wasn't sure) that they had photographed the inside and outside of the skull showing the hole of entry from both sides. He seemed to think that the two blank 4 x 5 color sheets would have been those photos.

"My conclusion is that the photos and x-rays of the autopsy of President Kennedy do not modify our conclusions stated in the autopsy report."

 ::)

No

That's your interpretation of what Finck wrote.

Surprise, Surprise your interpretation keeps your LNer fantasy intact.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 01, 2018, 01:39:10 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
::)

No

That's your interpretation of what Finck wrote.

Surprise, Surprise your interpretation keeps your LNer fantasy intact.

Finck did not say that there were photos missing. That's not just my interpretation of what he wrote. It's a fact. You are stuck with the autopsy photos. No amount of whining or knashing of teeth will make them go away. Nor will it make non-existing photos appear out of nowhere. Autopsy photos show that the entry wound at the base of the neck in the back was higher that the exit wound in the throat.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 01, 2018, 02:14:12 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
::)

No

That's your interpretation of what Finck wrote.

Surprise, Surprise your interpretation keeps your LNer fantasy intact.

How would the existence of photos showing the inside and outside of the entry wound in the skull have any impact at all on my "LN fantasy"?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 01, 2018, 03:05:23 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How would the existence of photos showing the inside and outside of the entry wound in the skull have any impact at all on my "LN fantasy"?

Well it's your "LN Fantasy", but let me see if I can help you out.

The WC conclusion is based on the original autopsy opinions. - The entry wound in JFK's shull was

slightly above and slightly to the right of the EOP.

Critics said a wound that low on JFK's skull, from a bullet fired from the 6th floor SE corner TSBD,

doesn't jibe with the official explanation of JFK's wounds.

The Clark Panel was formed to re-examine the autopsy materials in response.

The panel said there is a entry wound in the cowlick of JFK's skull - 4 inches above the EOP wound.

All subsequent official investigations including the HSCA agree with the Clark Panel.

The photos of the gunshot inshoot and outshoot wound at the EOP on JFK's skull is a second wound.

If I have to explain what that means, you are lost.



Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 01, 2018, 03:16:28 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Well it's your "LN Fantasy", but let me see if I can help you out.

The WC conclusion is based on the original autopsy opinions. - The entry wound in JFK's shull was

slightly above and slightly to the right of the EOP.

Critics said a wound that low on JFK's skull, from a bullet fired from the 6th floor SE corner TSBD,

doesn't jibe with the official explanation of JFK's wounds.

The Clark Panel was formed to re-examine the autopsy materials in response.

The panel said there is a entry wound in the cowlick of JFK's skull - 4 inches above the EOP wound.

All subsequent official investigations including the HSCA agree with the Clark Panel.

The photos of the gunshot inshoot and outshoot wound at the EOP on JFK's skull is a second wound.

If I have to explain what that means, you are lost.

Photos of the inshoot and outshoot wound at the EOP on JFK's skull would not be a second wound. It would be the wound. The photos and x-rays of the autopsy of President Kennedy do not modify the conclusions stated in the autopsy report.  Critics who said a wound that low on JFK's skull, from a bullet fired from the 6th floor SE corner TSBD , doesn't jibe with the official explanation of JFK's wounds were wrong.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 01, 2018, 03:29:42 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Photos of the inshoot and outshoot wound at the EOP on JFK's skull would not be a second wound. It would be the wound. The photos and x-rays of the autopsy of President Kennedy do not modify the conclusions stated in the autopsy report.  Critics who said a wound that low on JFK's skull, from a bullet fired from the 6th floor SE corner TSBD , doesn't jibe with the official explanation of JFK's wounds were wrong.

"Photos of the inshoot and outshoot wound at the EOP on JFK's skull would not be a second wound."

 :o

The Clark Panel and HSCA both said there is a wound in JFK's skull 4 inches above the EOP.

A wound at the EOP and one 4 inches above.

That 2 wounds here on Earth.

In LNer fantasyland it might be something else.


Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 01, 2018, 03:39:34 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"Photos of the inshoot and outshoot wound at the EOP on JFK's skull would not be a second wound."

 :o

The Clark Panel and HSCA both said there is a wound in JFK's skull 4 inches above the EOP.

A wound at the EOP and one 4 inches above.

That 2 wounds here on Earth.

In LNer fantasyland it might be something else.

A wound slightly above the EOP would mean that the Clark Panel and the HSCA were wrong. Which they probably were. They primarily used the defect in the scalp seen in the photo to make their placement of the wound in the skull. The x-rays themselves were not of good enough quality to make such a determination. There was only one entry wound in the back of the skull. The photos and x-rays of the autopsy of President Kennedy do not modify the conclusions stated in the autopsy report. Finck said so himself.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 01, 2018, 03:29:42 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
A wound slightly above the EOP would mean that the Clark Panel and the HSCA were wrong. Which they probably were. They primarily used the defect in the scalp seen in the photo to make their placement of the wound in the skull. The x-rays themselves were not of good enough quality to make such a determination. There was only one entry wound in the back of the skull. The photos and x-rays of the autopsy of President Kennedy do not modify the conclusions stated in the autopsy report. Finck said so himself.

"A wound slightly above the EOP would mean that the Clark Panel and the HSCA were wrong. Which they probably were. They primarily used the defect in the scalp seen in the photo to make their placement of the wound in the skull. The x-rays themselves were not of good enough quality to make such a determination."

You = FOS.

http://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/How5Investigations/How5InvestigationsGotItWrong_2.htm

HOW FIVE INVESTIGATIONS INTO JFK’S MEDICAL/AUTOPSY EVIDENCE GOT IT WRONG
Gary L. Aguilar, MD and Kathy Cunningham

~snip~

"....Based on evaluations of presumably the same pictures and X-rays, the Clark Panel, the Rockefeller Commission and the HSCA later concluded that “the wound” – the entrance site of the fatal bullet in JFK’s head – was not just  “slightly higher” in the images, but 4 inches higher. This is scarcely a negligible discrepancy, given that the area of the back of the head in which it was concluded there had been a 4 inch error only measures, top-to-bottom about 5 &1/2 inches. Nowhere in either of the 1966 or 1967 reviews did JFK’s pathologists acknowledge there was a huge disparity between the wounds in their autopsy report and those in “their” pictures and X-rays. Moreover, on the question of the fragments in the X-ray, the pathologists failed to mention that the antero-posterior trail of fragments in the lateral X-ray are in an entirely different location than specified in their autopsy report....."

~snip~

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/XrayLateral.jpg)
"Lateral X-Ray taken during the autopsy of President Kennedy, showing a trail of apparent metal fragments high in the skull. The Clark Panel's declaration that the line described by these fragments "passes through the above-mentioned hole" [i.e, the bullet entrance] is not accurate. The "above-mentioned hole" can be seen as a step-off, or a crack, in the skull at the left side of the skull. Anyone can see that, as the House Select Committee was later to report, the "trail" of fragments is considerably higher than the step-off, ion fact, 4-cm higher, according to the Select Committee."

~snip~

"Worse yet, the Panel incorrectly described the trail’s true position as, “on lateral film #2 this (fragment) formation(’s) long axis, if extended posteriorly, passes through the above-mentioned (new entrance) hole.”[184] That fragment trail does not line up with the presumed higher entrance hole. As one of the authors (Aguilar) determined by looking at the original X-rays, the trail lies noticeably higher than that level. This is not a new discovery. In 1978, HSCA expert radiologist David O. Davis, MD reported that the trail extended, “anteriorly from the inner table of the skull at a point approximately 6-cm. antero-superiorly from the previously described embedded metallic fragment.”

~snip~
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 01, 2018, 04:01:34 PM
HOW FIVE INVESTIGATIONS INTO JFK’S MEDICAL/AUTOPSY EVIDENCE GOT IT WRONG
Gary L. Aguilar, MD and Kathy Cunningham

~snip~

II. THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT INVESTIGATES JFK’s AUTOPSY
Introduction – The Government’s Private Response to Public Doubts

~snip~

JFK’s Entire Autopsy Team Swears Autopsy Photographs Are Missing
"The upshot is that there is reason to doubt that the signers really believed no autopsy photographs were missing when they signed “their” affidavit. Instead, as we will see, it appears that Justice arranged for the principals to falsely affirm the integrity of autopsy evidence they knew to be incomplete. From both public and once-secret files, we have learned that each of JFK’s threepathologists and both autopsy photographers later repeatedly testified under oath that photographs they took on the night of the autopsy were missing from the official inventory they had signed off as complete in 1966.[149]
For example, in a once-secret memo, HSCA counsel, D. Andy Purdy, JD, reported that during an interview, chief autopsy photographer, "(John) STRINGER (sic) said it was his recollection that all the photographs he had taken were not present in 1966 (when Stringer saw the photographs for the first time.) [150] Among the missing pictures are those taken of the interior of JFK’s chest. None survive in the current inventory. Yet every autopsy participant who was asked recalled that photographs were taken of the interior of JFK’s body, as indeed they should have been to document the passage of the non-fatal bullet through JFK’s chest:"


·         John Stringer told the HSCA he recalled taking “at least two exposures of the body cavity.” A. Purdy.[151]
·         James Humes, MD was reported in an HSCA memo to have, "... specifically recall(ed photographs) ... were taken of the President's chest ... (these photographs ) do not exist."[152] As already discussed, Humes had told the Warren Commission in 1964 that he had taken pictures of the interior of Kennedy’s chest.[153]
·         J. Thornton Boswell, MD, the second in command, backed up Stringer and Humes. The HSCA recorded that, "... he (Boswell) thought they photographed '... the exposed thoracic cavity and lung ...' but (he) doesn't remember ever seeing those photographs."[154]
·         Robert Karnei, MD, a Navy pathologist who assisted but was not a member of the official autopsy team, told the HSCA, "He (Karnei) recalls them putting the probe in and taking pictures (the body was on the side at the time) (sic)."[155]


"Finally, regarding JFK’s still-controversial skull wound, In formerly secret testimony taken 24 years ago, Dr. Finck described to the Select Committee how he had photographed the beveling in JFK’s skull bone to prove that the low wound in occipital bone was an entrance wound. In the following exchange, Dr. Finck was being asked  by the Select Committee’s forensic consultants whether the official images were those Dr. Finck had claimed were missing."
 
Charles Petty, MD: "If I understand you correctly, Dr. Finck, you wanted particularly to have a photograph made of the external aspect of the skull from the back to show that there was no cratering to the outside of the skull." 
Finck: "Absolutely."
Petty: "Did you ever see such a photograph?"
Finck: "I don't think so and I brought with me memorandum referring to the examination of photographs in 1967... and as I can recall I never saw pictures of the outer aspect of the wound of entry in the back of the head and inner aspect in the skull in order to show a crater although I was there asking for these photographs. I don't remember seeing those photographs."
Petty: “All right. Let me ask you one other question. In order to expose that area where the wound was present in the bone, did you have to or did someone have to dissect the scalp off of the bone in order to show this?”
Finck: “Yes.”
Petty: “Was this a difficult dissection and did it go very low into the head so as to expose the external aspect of the posterior cranial fascia (sic - meant “fossa”)?”
Finck: “I don’t remember the difficulty involved in separating the scalp from the skull but this was done in order to have a clear view of the outside and inside to show the crater from the inside … the skull had to be separated from it in order to show in the back of the head the wound in the bone.”[156]

~snip~
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 02, 2018, 12:34:23 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"A wound slightly above the EOP would mean that the Clark Panel and the HSCA were wrong. Which they probably were. They primarily used the defect in the scalp seen in the photo to make their placement of the wound in the skull. The x-rays themselves were not of good enough quality to make such a determination."

You = FOS.


Bite me, you A-Hole.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 02, 2018, 12:36:50 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
HOW FIVE INVESTIGATIONS INTO JFK’S MEDICAL/AUTOPSY EVIDENCE GOT IT WRONG
Gary L. Aguilar, MD and Kathy Cunningham

~snip~

II. THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT INVESTIGATES JFK’s AUTOPSY
Introduction – The Government’s Private Response to Public Doubts

~snip~

JFK’s Entire Autopsy Team Swears Autopsy Photographs Are Missing
"The upshot is that there is reason to doubt that the signers really believed no autopsy photographs were missing when they signed “their” affidavit. Instead, as we will see, it appears that Justice arranged for the principals to falsely affirm the integrity of autopsy evidence they knew to be incomplete. From both public and once-secret files, we have learned that each of JFK’s threepathologists and both autopsy photographers later repeatedly testified under oath that photographs they took on the night of the autopsy were missing from the official inventory they had signed off as complete in 1966.[149]
For example, in a once-secret memo, HSCA counsel, D. Andy Purdy, JD, reported that during an interview, chief autopsy photographer, "(John) STRINGER (sic) said it was his recollection that all the photographs he had taken were not present in 1966 (when Stringer saw the photographs for the first time.) [150] Among the missing pictures are those taken of the interior of JFK’s chest. None survive in the current inventory. Yet every autopsy participant who was asked recalled that photographs were taken of the interior of JFK’s body, as indeed they should have been to document the passage of the non-fatal bullet through JFK’s chest:"


·         John Stringer told the HSCA he recalled taking “at least two exposures of the body cavity.” A. Purdy.[151]
·         James Humes, MD was reported in an HSCA memo to have, "... specifically recall(ed photographs) ... were taken of the President's chest ... (these photographs ) do not exist."[152] As already discussed, Humes had told the Warren Commission in 1964 that he had taken pictures of the interior of Kennedy’s chest.[153]
·         J. Thornton Boswell, MD, the second in command, backed up Stringer and Humes. The HSCA recorded that, "... he (Boswell) thought they photographed '... the exposed thoracic cavity and lung ...' but (he) doesn't remember ever seeing those photographs."[154]
·         Robert Karnei, MD, a Navy pathologist who assisted but was not a member of the official autopsy team, told the HSCA, "He (Karnei) recalls them putting the probe in and taking pictures (the body was on the side at the time) (sic)."[155]


"Finally, regarding JFK’s still-controversial skull wound, In formerly secret testimony taken 24 years ago, Dr. Finck described to the Select Committee how he had photographed the beveling in JFK’s skull bone to prove that the low wound in occipital bone was an entrance wound. In the following exchange, Dr. Finck was being asked  by the Select Committee’s forensic consultants whether the official images were those Dr. Finck had claimed were missing."
 
Charles Petty, MD: "If I understand you correctly, Dr. Finck, you wanted particularly to have a photograph made of the external aspect of the skull from the back to show that there was no cratering to the outside of the skull." 
Finck: "Absolutely."
Petty: "Did you ever see such a photograph?"
Finck: "I don't think so and I brought with me memorandum referring to the examination of photographs in 1967... and as I can recall I never saw pictures of the outer aspect of the wound of entry in the back of the head and inner aspect in the skull in order to show a crater although I was there asking for these photographs. I don't remember seeing those photographs."
Petty: “All right. Let me ask you one other question. In order to expose that area where the wound was present in the bone, did you have to or did someone have to dissect the scalp off of the bone in order to show this?”
Finck: “Yes.”
Petty: “Was this a difficult dissection and did it go very low into the head so as to expose the external aspect of the posterior cranial fascia (sic - meant “fossa”)?”
Finck: “I don’t remember the difficulty involved in separating the scalp from the skull but this was done in order to have a clear view of the outside and inside to show the crater from the inside … the skull had to be separated from it in order to show in the back of the head the wound in the bone.”[156]

~snip~

(https://i.imgur.com/meyMlD1.gif)

Aguilar is a prevaricator. Finck never took a single photograph of JFK's body.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 02, 2018, 06:47:35 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

~snip~

Aguilar is a prevaricator. Finck never took a single photograph of JFK's body.

"Aguilar is a prevaricator."

No, Tim Nickerson is a prevaricator.

"Finck never took a single photograph of JFK's body."

Of course he didn't.

He was Chief of the Wound Ballistics Pathology Branch of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology.

He was called as a consultant in the field of missile wounds, not to take photographs.

He did however requests photos to be taken during JFK's autopsy, including ones of the inside and outside

of JFK's skull at the EOP wound.

You know, the photos that weren't among the autopsy materials he examined in January 1967.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/finck2_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 02, 2018, 11:24:10 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"Aguilar is a prevaricator."

No, Tim Nickerson is a prevaricator.

"Finck never took a single photograph of JFK's body."

Of course he didn't.

He was Chief of the Wound Ballistics Pathology Branch of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology.

He was called as a consultant in the field of missile wounds, not to take photographs.

He did however requests photos to be taken during JFK's autopsy, including ones of the inside and outside

of JFK's skull at the EOP wound.

You know, the photos that weren't among the autopsy materials he examined in January 1967.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/finck2_1.jpg)

Finck wanted photos to be taken to show the beveling in JFK's skull bone and asked for them to be taken but he never said that he actually saw them being taken, let alone that he took them himself. When Aguilar said that "Dr. Finck described to the Select Committee how he had photographed the beveling in JFK’s skull bone" he was not telling the truth.

The two photos were not among the autopsy materials that Finck examined in January 1967 because they never existed in the first place. They were never taken.

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md30/html/Image00.htm
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 02, 2018, 03:18:29 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Finck wanted photos to be taken to show the beveling in JFK's skull bone and asked for them to be taken but he never said that he actually saw them being taken, let alone that he took them himself. When Aguilar said that "Dr. Finck described to the Select Committee how he had photographed the beveling in JFK’s skull bone" he was not telling the truth.

The two photos were not among the autopsy materials that Finck examined in January 1967 because they never existed in the first place. They were never taken.

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md30/html/Image00.htm

"The two photos were not among the autopsy materials that Finck examined in January 1967 because they never existed in the first place. They were never taken."

 ::)

They can't exist in the mind of any hardcore LNer.

They would destroy the fantasy.


The top government missile wound expert is called in to help examine the wounds of the assassinated

POTUS.

And according to you he doesn't ask for photos, or if he did they weren't taken, of the fatal wound.

Photos that indicate the direction the bullet came from.

Sorry, that's nothing more than your biased opinion.

Humes and Boswell weren't the best choices.

They were mainly administrators, and had little actual hands

on experience in autopsies.

Finck on the other hand was eminently qualified.

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 02, 2018, 10:14:15 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"The two photos were not among the autopsy materials that Finck examined in January 1967 because they never existed in the first place. They were never taken."

 ::)

They can't exist in the mind of any hardcore LNer.

They would destroy the fantasy.


The top government missile wound expert is called in to help examine the wounds of the assassinated

POTUS.

And according to you he doesn't ask for photos, or if he did they weren't taken, of the fatal wound.

Photos that indicate the direction the bullet came from.

Sorry, that's nothing more than your biased opinion.

Humes and Boswell weren't the best choices.

They were mainly administrators, and had little actual hands

on experience in autopsies.

Can't you read? I said that he asked for photos to be taken.

The photos were not taken. If they had been, Stringer would have noticed that they were missing in 1966. After all, he took the autopsy photos, not Finck as Aguilar claimed. Aguilar falsely claimed that Finck described to the Select Committee how he had photographed the beveling in JFK’s skull bone.

Quote
Finck on the other hand was eminently qualified.

Indeed he was.

"I saw a wound in the upper back/lower neck on the right side which I identified as a wound of entry."
----------
"there was only one wound'of entry in the back of the head."
----------
"It was above the external occipital protuberance....2.5 centimeters to the right of the midline."
-- The eminently qualified Pierre Finck

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 02, 2018, 10:15:08 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"The two photos were not among the autopsy materials that Finck examined in January 1967 because they never existed in the first place. They were never taken."

 ::)

They can't exist in the mind of any hardcore LNer.

They would destroy the fantasy.


The top government missile wound expert is called in to help examine the wounds of the assassinated

POTUS.

And according to you he doesn't ask for photos, or if he did they weren't taken, of the fatal wound.

Photos that indicate the direction the bullet came from.

Sorry, that's nothing more than your biased opinion.

Humes and Boswell weren't the best choices.

They were mainly administrators, and had little actual hands

on experience in autopsies.

Finck on the other hand was eminently qualified.

What's with the annoying formatting?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 02, 2018, 10:55:56 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Can't you read? I said that he asked for photos to be taken.

The photos were not taken. If they had been, Stringer would have noticed that they were missing in 1966. After all, he took the autopsy photos, not Finck as Aguilar claimed. Aguilar falsely claimed that Finck described to the Select Committee how he had photographed the beveling in JFK’s skull bone.


Extract from Stringer's testimony to the ARRB.

"Q: Give or take one or two, I presume.
 Stringer: Yeah. There were some views that we - that were taken that were missing.
 Q: Why is it that you say that some of the views that were taken are missing?
 Stringer: We went down to see them two years afterwards, and I remember some things inside the
 body that weren't there.

"https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=798#relPageId=27&tab=page

Page 133
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 02, 2018, 11:07:53 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Extract from Stringer's testimony to the ARRB.

"Q: Give or take one or two, I presume.
 Stringer: Yeah. There were some views that we - that were taken that were missing.
 Q: Why is it that you say that some of the views that were taken are missing?
 Stringer: We went down to see them two years afterwards, and I remember some things inside the
 body that weren't there.

A signed inventory 3 years after the fact vs a 33 year old recollection. The former trumps the latter any day. The autopsy photos are what they are. Why not just deal with them?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 02, 2018, 11:12:01 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
A signed inventory 3 years after the fact vs a 33 year old recollection. The former trumps the latter any day. The autopsy photos are what they are. Why not just deal with them?



From O'Neill sworn testimony to the ARRB:  (see for example: https://www.maryferrell.org/mmfweb/ or many other sources for this testimony.)
 
Mr. Gunn: Okay.  Can we take a look now at view number six, which is described as "wound of entrance in right posterior occipital region", Color Photograph No. 42 [which we recognize as the back of head autopsy photo: ALF]
 
Q:  I'd like to ask you whether that photograph resembles what you saw from the back of the head at the time of the autopsy?
 
A: This looks like it's been doctored in some way...
 
 
From Sibert sworn testimony to the ARRB:
 
Q: Okay.  If we could now look at the sixth view which is described as the "wound of entrance in right posterior occipital region". Photograph No. 42 [same "back of head" autopsy photo: ALF]
 
Mr. Sibert, does that photograph correspond to your recollection of the back of President Kennedy's head?
 
A:  Well, I don't have a recollection of it being that intact as compared with these other pictures.  I don't remember seeing anything that was like this photo.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 03, 2018, 12:52:10 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


From O'Neill sworn testimony to the ARRB:  (see for example: https://www.maryferrell.org/mmfweb/ or many other sources for this testimony.)
 
Mr. Gunn: Okay.  Can we take a look now at view number six, which is described as "wound of entrance in right posterior occipital region", Color Photograph No. 42 [which we recognize as the back of head autopsy photo: ALF]
 
Q:  I'd like to ask you whether that photograph resembles what you saw from the back of the head at the time of the autopsy?
 
A: This looks like it's been doctored in some way...

"Let me rephrase that, when I say 'doctored'. Like the stuff has been pushed back in, and it looks like more towards the end than the beginning. All you have to do was put the flap back over here , and the rest of the stuff is all covered on up."
...............
"I'm not saying that these have been doctored or phonied up in any particular way at all."

 
Quote
From Sibert sworn testimony to the ARRB:
 
Q: Okay.  If we could now look at the sixth view which is described as the "wound of entrance in right posterior occipital region". Photograph No. 42 [same "back of head" autopsy photo: ALF]
 
Mr. Sibert, does that photograph correspond to your recollection of the back of President Kennedy's head?
 
A:  Well, I don't have a recollection of it being that intact as compared with these other pictures.  I don't remember seeing anything that was like this photo.

What he remembered 33 years on was different from what is seen in that autopsy photo. The autopsy photo has been authenticated in more ways than one. Sibert's recollection was clearly faulty.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 03, 2018, 05:58:54 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Can't you read? I said that he asked for photos to be taken.

The photos were not taken. If they had been, Stringer would have noticed that they were missing in 1966. After all, he took the autopsy photos, not Finck as Aguilar claimed. Aguilar falsely claimed that Finck described to the Select Committee how he had photographed the beveling in JFK’s skull bone.

Indeed he was.

"I saw a wound in the upper back/lower neck on the right side which I identified as a wound of entry."
----------
"there was only one wound'of entry in the back of the head."
----------
"It was above the external occipital protuberance....2.5 centimeters to the right of the midline."
-- The eminently qualified Pierre Finck

 ;D

In 1966 the person who took the photos, Stringer, doesn't notice any missing.

In 1967 the missile wound expert who examined the body and bullet holes at the autopsy and

requested the photos be made, Finck, notices there are some missing.

They disappeared sometime between 1966 when Stringer reviewed them and 1967 when Finck reviewed

them.



Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 03, 2018, 04:09:56 PM
Timbo's answer for everything is that "They are lying"!!!!!

Apparently he knows more than the doctors and witnesses and when his version doesn't suit his LN fantasy they are lying.

The photos were missing plain as that.

Whoever heard of a ballistics expert at an autopsy not having photos taken of bullet wounds to the head and ensuring they are taken and viewing them to ensure he can provide the expertise he has been asked for.

You are so deranged Tim you are not even thinking like a human being.  You are obsessed an obsessed LN.  Get some help.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 03, 2018, 07:11:31 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Timbo's answer for everything is that "They are lying"!!!!!

Apparently he knows more than the doctors and witnesses and when his version doesn't suit his LN fantasy they are lying.

The photos were missing plain as that.

Whoever heard of a ballistics expert at an autopsy not having photos taken of bullet wounds to the head and ensuring they are taken and viewing them to ensure he can provide the expertise he has been asked for.

You are so deranged Tim you are not even thinking like a human being.  You are obsessed an obsessed LN.  Get some help.

CTer answer for everything: Everything's faked! There's no evidence!
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 03, 2018, 07:13:43 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
;D

In 1966 the person who took the photos, Stringer, doesn't notice any missing.

Correct

Quote
In 1967 the missile wound expert who examined the body and bullet holes at the autopsy and requested the photos be made, Finck, notices there are some missing.

Incorrect.He notices that a couple of photos that he recalls asking to be taken were never taken.

Quote
They disappeared sometime between 1966 when Stringer reviewed them and 1967 when Finck reviewed them.

They never disappeared because they never existed in the first place. However, here are a couple of photos that were taken:

(https://i.imgur.com/QCtKH4w.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RgkPjye.jpg)

Now, excluding the line that has been added to the bottom one, do you accept those two photos as being authentic? Yes or no.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 03, 2018, 07:47:55 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Correct

Incorrect.He notices that a couple of photos that he recalls asking to be taken were never taken.

They never disappeared because they never existed in the first place. However, here are a couple of photos that were taken:

(https://i.imgur.com/QCtKH4w.jpg)

If you think the photo above is genuine, Tim, you should have gone to Specsavers.
Quote

(https://i.imgur.com/RgkPjye.jpg)

Now, excluding the line that has been added to the bottom one, do you accept those two photos as being authentic? Yes or no.
No.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 03, 2018, 09:47:54 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
CTer answer for everything: Everything's faked! There's no evidence!

When we cite evidence, something LNers rarely do, the LNers call the witnesses liars and then profess to know more than the experts involved at the time.  There's plenty of evidence but LNers discredit witnesses and fail to accept it even when their on government call the WC inadequate and agree there was a conspiracy.  I'm afraid that when a cover up is involved there is always a lot of smoke and mirrors.  Also a lot of diverting attention towards red herrings like LHO.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Anderson on March 04, 2018, 01:01:06 AM


Discrediting witnesses is inevitable regardless of which conclusion one reaches. The witnesses can't all be right.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Anderson on March 04, 2018, 01:05:35 AM


(https://i.imgur.com/QCtKH4w.jpg)

And there we have it. Instead of determining the location of a wound by looking at a photograph folks just want to argue about where it might have been and conclude the photo is fake if it doesn't fit their narrative.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 04, 2018, 10:52:04 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Discrediting witnesses is inevitable regardless of which conclusion one reaches. The witnesses can't all be right.

That's called disagreeing John, discrediting is something entirely different
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 04, 2018, 12:21:50 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

(https://i.imgur.com/QCtKH4w.jpg)

And there we have it. Instead of determining the location of a wound by looking at a photograph folks just want to argue about where it might have been and conclude the photo is fake if it doesn't fit their narrative.

How do you explain the solid black hair at the back of the head, John?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 04, 2018, 12:44:38 PM
Thank you for all your posts but for me the significant evidence points to the following shots being fired on 11/22.  Please can people let me know what hey think of the points below?  I'm not considering the order of shots at the moment just the wounds, bullet damage, bullet find and fragments found.  The statements below have been developed from the higher quality evidence cited on this post by people.

1 - JFK's back passing through right lung and through Connally shattering his wrist - from behind (missing autopsy photos)

2 - JFK's throat entrance with no exit fired from front through windshield

3 - JFK head shot, hollow tipped round from the front - quite possibly even 2 head shots

4 - Connally's left knee from front ricochet off limo windscreen chrome surround from the front.  Leaves fragments in front footwells of limo and under jump seat.

5 - Miss from behind hit kerb resulting in debris causing Tagues minor injury

6 - Plant at Parkland before plotters aware of Tague's injury.

What do you think?  LNers need not apply as I've heard it all before!!
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Organ on March 04, 2018, 01:02:10 PM
Two stupid questions:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Where is the end of the stick located?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How do you explain the solid black hair at the back of the head, John?

Maybe some context and explain what you're getting at?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Organ on March 04, 2018, 01:48:16 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Where is the end of the stick located?

OK, let's back up: What is the purpose of the measure in the photo?

More evasion of context. Can't you formulate a question and include what you're getting at?

Why be cryptic?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 04, 2018, 03:07:39 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Correct

Incorrect.He notices that a couple of photos that he recalls asking to be taken were never taken.

They never disappeared because they never existed in the first place. However, here are a couple of photos that were taken:

~snip~

Now, excluding the line that has been added to the bottom one, do you accept those two photos as being authentic? Yes or no.

"Incorrect.He notices that a couple of photos that he recalls asking to be taken were never taken."

Right, the POTUS is assassinated.

The fatal wound(s) are to his head.

The missile wound expert at the autopsy requests photos be taken of the fatal wound(s).

The person taking the photos doesn't take the photos?

Come on now, I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.

"They never disappeared because they never existed in the first place."

LOL

"However, here are a couple of photos that were taken:"

So what?

They have nothing to do with the photos Finck had taken of the underlining bone.

They showed the cratering that indicated the direction the bullet came from.

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 04, 2018, 03:37:30 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Maybe some context and explain what you're getting at?

Sorry that you can't follow, Jerry.  What causes the solid black area at the back of the head (as shown by yellow arrow)?

(https://s19.postimg.org/o9lksyzov/Back_of_head..jpg.png) (https://postimg.org/image/o9lksyzov/)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 04, 2018, 03:51:19 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"Incorrect.He notices that a couple of photos that he recalls asking to be taken were never taken."

Right, the POTUS is assassinated.

The fatal wound(s) are to his head.

The missile wound expert at the autopsy requests photos be taken of the fatal wound(s).


The same missile wound expert who reported that there was only one entry wound in the back of the skull and that the wound was slightly above the EOP and 2.5 cms to the right of the midline. Deal with it.


Quote
"However, here are a couple of photos that were taken:"

So what?

They have nothing to do with the photos Finck had taken of the underlining bone.


They have everything to do with what we were discussing before you decided to divert away.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,233.msg7125.html#msg7125

(https://i.imgur.com/QCtKH4w.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RgkPjye.jpg)

Excluding the line that has been added to the bottom one, do you accept those two photos as being authentic? Yes or no.


Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Organ on March 04, 2018, 04:42:50 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Sorry that you can't follow, Jerry.  What causes the solid black area at the back of the head (as shown by yellow arrow)?

(https://s19.postimg.org/o9lksyzov/Back_of_head..jpg.png) (https://postimg.org/image/o9lksyzov/)

The area is oblique and receiving less direct light.

Now what are you getting at?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Organ on March 04, 2018, 04:50:56 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Let's back up further...

My question was directed to John Anderson, and you injected yourself claiming the question was stupid obviously without knowing the context, since you have to ask. What a rookie mistake.


Easy enough to click back the links. Your question is just as stupid.

Making something that's simple to begin with into a cryptic conundrum that you then layer on, seems to be your way of making yourself seem "smart" or above it all.

Quote

If the picture is genuine the context should be obvious even to you, so what is the purpose of the ruler?

The ruler in the picture is to measure things. And I'm the rookie? ::)

If there's anything more to it, let's have it. I couldn't crack your cryptic allusions.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 04, 2018, 04:51:37 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The area is oblique and receiving less direct light.

Now what are you getting at?
"The area is oblique and receiving less direct light."   :)

Not very good at understanding photos, are you, Jerry.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Organ on March 04, 2018, 04:56:21 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"The area is oblique and receiving less direct light."   :)

Not very good at understanding photos, are you, Jerry.

Like I say, Ray, you're getting at something specific with that question. Why not cut to the chase and share it in the original question?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 04, 2018, 04:59:39 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
So the measurements were?

7mm x 4mm.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 04, 2018, 07:18:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Like I say, Ray, you're getting at something specific with that question. Why not cut to the chase and share it in the original question?

The area has been "blacked" in.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Anderson on March 05, 2018, 12:36:16 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How do you explain the solid black hair at the back of the head, John?

Well it's definitely not the entry wound in his back.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Anderson on March 05, 2018, 12:46:05 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Where is the end of the stick located?

It's located where you see it located. Are you thinking maybe they are covering an entry wound with the ruler?
A few things worth commenting on in my opinion. These photos exist in colour and are crystal clear. No great point getting
knickers in a twist about black and white pics

Also it's pretty clear from testimony of people present at the autopsy that the atmosphere was pretty chaotic in there that night.
The room was filled with people coming and going and talking. Photographers were present. This was definitely not conducted in secret.
My logic tells me this is not how a cover up would be conducted.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 05, 2018, 07:11:24 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How do you explain the solid black hair at the back of the head, John?

The back of JFK's head is in shadow.
 
Simply not enough light in that area of the head to reveal hair.


(https://s17.postimg.org/sdp7smvin/Screen_Shot_2018-03-05_at_2.18.34_AM.png)
Closest I could (quickly) find to similar lighting and head angle
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 05, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The back of JFK's head is in shadow.
 
Simply not enough light in that area of the head to reveal hair.


(https://s17.postimg.org/sdp7smvin/Screen_Shot_2018-03-05_at_2.18.34_AM.png)
Closest I could (quickly) find to similar lighting and head angle

This is the official back of the head photo, black area bucket filled.

(https://s19.postimg.org/run0g41dr/Autopsy_photo3_Afilled_in.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/run0g41dr/)

Try the same with your back of the head photo, Bill, and see the difference.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Organ on March 05, 2018, 03:30:20 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This is the official back of the head photo, black area bucket filled.

(https://s19.postimg.org/run0g41dr/Autopsy_photo3_Afilled_in.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/run0g41dr/)

Try the same with your back of the head photo, Bill, and see the difference.

I see Ray is persisting with this zany claim, so here's something to consider ...

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oysbjGcLmUg/TyijKQGRjqI/AAAAAAAAEMo/_z9grR3IHIs/s530/JFK-Autopsy-Photos-BOH-Composite.jpg)
David Von Pein

Also this morph-animation shows detail in the "blacked out" area.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4pYEPUZIDdc/Us6eZPsnELI/AAAAAAAAxls/1w1LhRIoUpA/s1600/00.+JFK+Autopsy+Photos+(Animated+GIF+Montage).gif)
John Mytton

Ray has bucket fulled the one photo where the back of the head area is most compromised by flash shadow and the surface being oblique.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/BE5_HI.jpg)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 05, 2018, 07:12:40 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I see Ray is persisting with this zany claim, so here's something to consider ...

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oysbjGcLmUg/TyijKQGRjqI/AAAAAAAAEMo/_z9grR3IHIs/s530/JFK-Autopsy-Photos-BOH-Composite.jpg)
David Von Pein

Also this morph-animation shows detail in the "blacked out" area.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4pYEPUZIDdc/Us6eZPsnELI/AAAAAAAAxls/1w1LhRIoUpA/s1600/00.+JFK+Autopsy+Photos+(Animated+GIF+Montage).gif)
John Mytton



 (https://s19.postimg.org/at8f2khvj/JFK_posterior_head_wound.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/at8f2khvj/)

Ray has bucket fulled the one photo where the back of the head area is most compromised by flash shadow and the surface being oblique.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/BE5_HI.jpg)

This one of  the photos Mytton included in his gif.

Note the "filled in hair" at the back of the head. No flash problem here.

(https://s19.postimg.org/at8f2khvj/JFK_posterior_head_wound.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/at8f2khvj/)
(https://s19.postimg.org/at8f2khvj/JFK_posterior_head_wound.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/at8f2khvj/)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 05, 2018, 10:49:41 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This one of  the photos Mytton included in his gif.

Note the "filled in hair" at the back of the head. No flash problem here.

(https://s19.postimg.org/at8f2khvj/JFK_posterior_head_wound.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/at8f2khvj/)
(https://s19.postimg.org/at8f2khvj/JFK_posterior_head_wound.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/at8f2khvj/)

Ray, what are you talking about?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 06, 2018, 04:00:13 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The same missile wound expert who reported that there was only one entry wound in the back of the skull and that the wound was slightly above the EOP and 2.5 cms to the right of the midline. Deal with it.


They have everything to do with what we were discussing before you decided to divert away.

~snip~

Excluding the line that has been added to the bottom one, do you accept those two photos as being authentic? Yes or no.

Bottom line, the description of the location of the hole in JFK's back was changed in the final draft of the

WCR to accommodate Arlen Spector's theory about a Magic Bullet causing seven wounds in JFK & JBC.

When public criticism of the WC caused the government to re-examine the autopsy photos , x-rays etc,

a photo of JFK's right lung and chest cavity, that would have showed the direction and path of that missile,

was nowhere to be found.

The same criticism noted the entry point low on the back of JFK's skull, from a bullet fired from the

6th floor SE corner TSBD, doesn't jibe with the official account of the damage. Another

government re-examination of the autopsy materials found the photos of the hole in JFK's skull at the

EOP were not in the archive. Those photos, of the inside and outside of the skull bone,

where the bullet entered, were taken specifically to show cratering.

Cratering indicates the direction the missile was fired from.

Not long after, the Clark Panel decided the original autopsy had got it wrong. It determined the photos and

x-rays show the entry point was 4 inches higher, at the cowlick. The x-rays show a trail of metal

particles high on JFK's skull. Caused, apparently, by the path of a disintegrating projectile.

Two seperate government investigations, two seperate wounds to JFK's head.

Deal with it.


"They have everything to do with what we were discussing before you decided to divert away.

~snip~

Excluding the line that has been added to the bottom one, do you accept those two photos as being authentic? Yes or no."


LOL

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 06, 2018, 04:13:49 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Ray, what are you talking about?

Enlarge the photo to maximum, and you will see that the back of the head hair has been painted in.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 06, 2018, 04:44:01 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Ray,
Aren't those the Dox renditions?

Correct, Steve, I meant to post this image.

(https://s19.postimg.org/ssv3txdbz/Autopsy_Back2_thumb.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ssv3txdbz/)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 06, 2018, 08:37:23 PM
 I always find it interesting when someone says that a shot came through the front windshield of the Limo. Let's look at that.
1. None of the people in the car that day reported a shot coming through the windshield. Not Greer, Kellerman, Nellie, Gov. Connally, or Jackie said so.
2. The investigation of the windshield showed the glass was struck from the inside and had lead residue from the bullet on the inside.
3. There was no through hole to the windshield.
4. Jim Altgens famous photo from the front of the car shows the President reacting to the shot in his back and through his throat but there is no hole in the windshield.
5. The chip in the windshield is high on the glass. There were two police officers on the triple underpass and no shots were reported from that area.
6. In order for a shooter to shoot through the windshield based on the position of the car and the angle and incline of Elm street, a shooter would have to had been right out in the open lying prone on either Commerce or Main street.
7. From the angle needed to produce that shot, Governor Connally obstructed the view of the president.
8. No trained shooter in his right mind would lie in the open and risk missing his target by shooting through a safety glass, especially when said target is as important as the president of the United States.
9. Where did the bullet go and where is the exit wound for that shot? Full body x-rays were performed on the president and no bullets or fragments were found in his body.
I have studied the assassination for decades now and been to Dealy Plaza several times and gone over all the ground and angles. There was no shot from the front through the windshield. We can discuss the so called magic bullet later. I also have years experience in shooting and hunting. No shots came from the front that day. 
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 06, 2018, 09:05:04 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I always find it interesting when someone says that a shot came through the front windshield of the Limo. Let's look at that.
1. None of the people in the car that day reported a shot coming through the windshield. Not Greer, Kellerman, Nellie, Gov. Connally, or Jackie said so.
2. The investigation of the windshield showed the glass was struck from the inside and had lead residue from the bullet on the inside.
3. There was no through hole to the windshield.
4. Jim Altgens famous photo from the front of the car shows the President reacting to the shot in his back and through his throat but there is no hole in the windshield.
5. The chip in the windshield is high on the glass. There were two police officers on the triple underpass and no shots were reported from that area.
6. In order for a shooter to shoot through the windshield based on the position of the car and the angle and incline of Elm street, a shooter would have to had been right out in the open lying prone on either Commerce or Main street.
7. From the angle needed to produce that shot, Governor Connally obstructed the view of the president.
8. No trained shooter in his right mind would lie in the open and risk missing his target by shooting through a safety glass, especially when said target is as important as the president of the United States.
9. Where did the bullet go and where is the exit wound for that shot? Full body x-rays were performed on the president and no bullets or fragments were found in his body.
I have studied the assassination for decades now and been to Dealy Plaza several times and gone over all the ground and angles. There was no shot from the front through the windshield. We can discuss the so called magic bullet later. I also have years experience in shooting and hunting. No shots came from the front that day.

"I also have years experience in shooting and hunting. No shots came from the front that day."

That's convincing!     ::)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 06, 2018, 10:23:26 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"I also have years experience in shooting and hunting. No shots came from the front that day."

That's convincing!     ::)

Pahahahaha lets talk about the magic bullet later hahahahaha  It is getting on for 55 years later hahahaha
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 06, 2018, 10:59:45 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The same missile wound expert who reported that there was only one entry wound in the back of the skull and that the wound was slightly above the EOP and 2.5 cms to the right of the midline. Deal with it.

And by "slightly", he meant 4.5 inches?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 06, 2018, 11:10:28 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Bottom line, the description of the location of the hole in JFK's back was changed in the final draft of the

WCR to accommodate Arlen Spector's theory about a Magic Bullet causing seven wounds in JFK & JBC.

When public criticism of the WC caused the government to re-examine the autopsy photos , x-rays etc,

a photo of JFK's right lung and chest cavity, that would have showed the direction and path of that missile,

was nowhere to be found.

The same criticism noted the entry point low on the back of JFK's skull, from a bullet fired from the

6th floor SE corner TSBD, doesn't jibe with the official account of the damage. Another

government re-examination of the autopsy materials found the photos of the hole in JFK's skull at the

EOP were not in the archive. Those photos, of the inside and outside of the skull bone,

where the bullet entered, were taken specifically to show cratering.

Cratering indicates the direction the missile was fired from.

Not long after, the Clark Panel decided the original autopsy had got it wrong. It determined the photos and

x-rays show the entry point was 4 inches higher, at the cowlick. The x-rays show a trail of metal

particles high on JFK's skull. Caused, apparently, by the path of a disintegrating projectile.

Two seperate government investigations, two seperate wounds to JFK's head.

Deal with it.


"They have everything to do with what we were discussing before you decided to divert away.

~snip~

Excluding the line that has been added to the bottom one, do you accept those two photos as being authentic? Yes or no."


LOL

Why are you avoiding answering the question. What are you afraid of?

(https://i.imgur.com/QCtKH4w.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RgkPjye.jpg)

Are those autopsy photos authentic? Yes or no.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 06, 2018, 11:11:15 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
And by "slightly", he meant 4.5 inches?

By slightly , he meant less than an inch.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 06, 2018, 11:13:50 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Bottom line, the description of the location of the hole in JFK's back was changed in the final draft of the

WCR to accommodate Arlen Spector's theory about a Magic Bullet causing seven wounds in JFK & JBC.

When public criticism of the WC caused the government to re-examine the autopsy photos , x-rays etc,

a photo of JFK's right lung and chest cavity, that would have showed the direction and path of that missile,

was nowhere to be found.

The same criticism noted the entry point low on the back of JFK's skull, from a bullet fired from the

6th floor SE corner TSBD, doesn't jibe with the official account of the damage. Another

government re-examination of the autopsy materials found the photos of the hole in JFK's skull at the

EOP were not in the archive. Those photos, of the inside and outside of the skull bone,

where the bullet entered, were taken specifically to show cratering.

Cratering indicates the direction the missile was fired from.

Not long after, the Clark Panel decided the original autopsy had got it wrong. It determined the photos and

x-rays show the entry point was 4 inches higher, at the cowlick. The x-rays show a trail of metal

particles high on JFK's skull. Caused, apparently, by the path of a disintegrating projectile.

Two seperate government investigations, two seperate wounds to JFK's head.

Deal with it.

I don't deal with BS.

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 06, 2018, 11:17:36 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I always find it interesting when someone says that a shot came through the front windshield of the Limo. Let's look at that.
1. None of the people in the car that day reported a shot coming through the windshield. Not Greer, Kellerman, Nellie, Gov. Connally, or Jackie said so.
2. The investigation of the windshield showed the glass was struck from the inside and had lead residue from the bullet on the inside.
3. There was no through hole to the windshield.
4. Jim Altgens famous photo from the front of the car shows the President reacting to the shot in his back and through his throat but there is no hole in the windshield.
5. The chip in the windshield is high on the glass. There were two police officers on the triple underpass and no shots were reported from that area.
6. In order for a shooter to shoot through the windshield based on the position of the car and the angle and incline of Elm street, a shooter would have to had been right out in the open lying prone on either Commerce or Main street.
7. From the angle needed to produce that shot, Governor Connally obstructed the view of the president.
8. No trained shooter in his right mind would lie in the open and risk missing his target by shooting through a safety glass, especially when said target is as important as the president of the United States.
9. Where did the bullet go and where is the exit wound for that shot? Full body x-rays were performed on the president and no bullets or fragments were found in his body.
I have studied the assassination for decades now and been to Dealy Plaza several times and gone over all the ground and angles. There was no shot from the front through the windshield. We can discuss the so called magic bullet later. I also have years experience in shooting and hunting. No shots came from the front that day.

Right on Wesley. Welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 06, 2018, 11:24:21 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
3. There was no through hole to the windshield.

Stavis Ellis, H. R. Freeman, Richard Dudman, Evalea Glanges, George Whitaker, Sr, and Charles Taylor, Jr. beg to differ.

Quote
4. Jim Altgens famous photo from the front of the car shows the President reacting to the shot in his back and through his throat but there is no hole in the windshield.

Or is there?

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/nebula.png)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 06, 2018, 11:35:06 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Stavis Ellis, H. R. Freeman, Richard Dudman, Evalea Glanges, George Whitaker, Sr, and Charles Taylor, Jr. beg to differ.

Or is there?

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/nebula.png)

Want to bet?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on March 07, 2018, 01:36:26 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Or is there?

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/nebula.png)



What's the red circle supposed to mean?



JohnM
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 07, 2018, 02:14:40 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Why are you avoiding answering the question. What are you afraid of?

~snip~

Are those autopsy photos authentic? Yes or no.

The WC played a shell game and you want me to guess if the shells are real.

Why would any rational person try to determine if a copy of a copy of a copy of a photograph reproduced

in low resolution on the internet is authentic?

Unless they are trying to divert the conversation from the missing photos.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 07, 2018, 02:15:23 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I don't deal with BS.

LOL
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 07, 2018, 03:46:31 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The WC played a shell game and you want me to guess if the shells are real.

Why would any rational person try to determine if a copy of a copy of a copy of a photograph reproduced

in low resolution on the internet is authentic?

Unless they are trying to divert the conversation from the missing photos.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=594#relPageId=4&tab=page

Do you accept the autopsy photos (#1 to #52) inventoried in 1966 by James Humes, Thornton Boswell, John Ebersole, and John Stringer as being authentic? Yes or no.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 07, 2018, 04:31:35 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Pahahahaha lets talk about the magic bullet later hahahahaha  It is getting on for 55 years later hahahaha




Tell me where the shooter was for the shot through the windshield.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 07, 2018, 04:42:01 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"I also have years experience in shooting and hunting. No shots came from the front that day."

That's convincing!     ::)


The whole point of my statement on having shooting experience Gary is that I have shot a lot of things from targets to bodies. How much experience do you have with firearms? No trained sniper is going to be out in the open and then risk a shot through safety glass. It is ridiculous to even discuss. Have you been to Dealy Plaza? Convince me by telling me where this shooter would have been to make that shot. Now tell me where is the exit wound for that shot and where did the bullet go? Now you have another problem. Tell me where the exit wound for the shot to the president's back was and where that bullet went? Simple questions that you should have no trouble answering if your theory is correct. Talk about magic bullets!  ;D Rifle bullets go through things Gary. They don't just penetrate a couple of inches and then disappear. Very funny.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 07, 2018, 10:08:19 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I don't deal with BS.

You dish enough of it out Tim.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 07, 2018, 10:12:43 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Right on Wesley. Welcome to the forum.

Lets forget about the evidence and oh lets talk about he magic bullet later pahahaha how's 54 years later for you.  You know there's no such thing as magic or a magic bullet!! 
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 07, 2018, 10:16:16 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login



Tell me where the shooter was for the shot through the windshield.

How about you tell me the evidence for your long list and maybe describe to me the path of your magic bullet?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 07, 2018, 10:17:43 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=594#relPageId=4&tab=page

Do you accept the autopsy photos (#1 to #52) inventoried in 1966 by James Humes, Thornton Boswell, John Ebersole, and John Stringer as being authentic? Yes or no.

Not without the missing ones
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 07, 2018, 10:21:20 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=594#relPageId=4&tab=page

Do you accept the autopsy photos (#1 to #52) inventoried in 1966 by James Humes, Thornton Boswell, John Ebersole, and John Stringer as being authentic? Yes or no.

Nope.  Why? Because it wasn't an authentic Autopsy period.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 07, 2018, 10:22:37 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How about you tell me the evidence for your long list and maybe describe to me the path of your magic bullet?




No, how about you tell me where the shooter was to put a bullet through the windshield?  Why don't you tell me the path you think the magic bullet had to travel?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 07, 2018, 10:27:29 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The whole point of my statement on having shooting experience Gary is that I have shot a lot of things from targets to bodies. How much experience do you have with firearms? No trained sniper is going to be out in the open and then risk a shot through safety glass. It is ridiculous to even discuss. Have you been to Dealy Plaza? Convince me by telling me where this shooter would have been to make that shot. Now tell me where is the exit wound for that shot and where did the bullet go? Now you have another problem. Tell me where the exit wound for the shot to the president's back was and where that bullet went? Simple questions that you should have no trouble answering if your theory is correct. Talk about magic bullets!  ;D Rifle bullets go through things Gary. They don't just penetrate a couple of inches and then disappear. Very funny.
That's so much more convincing thanks for that clarification.

There was no exit wound for that shot, it went in JFK's throat and didn't exit due to first passing through the windshield.

The exit wound for JFK's back passed through the top portion of his right lung and hit Connally; it was a non-magic bullet.

Hollow tipped bullets don't always go through things

Lets face it Wesley you know sweet FA
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 07, 2018, 10:29:33 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login



No, how about you tell me where the shooter was to put a bullet through the windshield?  Why don't you tell me the path you think the magic bullet had to travel?

Because this is my post and you've made a long list of statements that is no more than your opinion without evidence and I'm not interested in your opinion
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 07, 2018, 10:29:57 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=594#relPageId=4&tab=page

Do you accept the autopsy photos (#1 to #52) inventoried in 1966 by James Humes, Thornton Boswell, John Ebersole, and John Stringer as being authentic? Yes or no.

I'm not concerned whether or not they're authentic.

I don't have the access, photographic experience or tools to make such a determination.

I'm pointing out that critical photos of the wounds don't exist in the archive.
 

The wound the autopsy doctors and WC said was slightly above and slightly to the right of the EOP

on JFK's skull was moved 4 inches by the Clark Panel and adopted by the Rockefellor Commission, and

the HSCA.

The EOP photos aren't there to confirm the location of the wound. Very convenient when it needs to be moved to support the official narrative. A narrative that had come under close scrutiny and criticism
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/finck2_1.jpg)



The description of the location of the wound in JFK's back was edited by Jerry Ford to become

a neck wound and align with Arlen Spector's Magic Bullet theory in the final draft of the WCR.

A photo that could have could shown the course and direction of the Magic Bullet disappeared.

Here is the Attorney General, in a taped phone call, telling LBJ they don't have the photo of JFK's right lung.
The one Humes testified was taken.


http://www.jfklancer.com/Clark.LBJ.html (http://www.jfklancer.com/Clark.LBJ.html)

Date: 1-21-67 12:00 Noon

Time: 7 mins 25 secs at the end of a 8 mins 31 secs conversation

Phone Conversation between Acting Attorney General Ramsey Clark and President Lyndon Johnson
Re: Autopsy Photos

-snip-

"That is, there may be a photo missing. Dr. Humes, Commander and Naval doctor, testified before the Warren Commission that this one photo made of the highest portion of the right lung."

-snip-

"It could be contended that that photo could show the course and direction the bullet that entered the lower part of the neck and exited the front part."

-snip-

"We are left with one specific problem. Dr. Humes did testify before the Warren Commission there was such a photo [that]
we don't have."


-snip-


Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 07, 2018, 10:42:10 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The whole point of my statement on having shooting experience Gary is that I have shot a lot of things from targets to bodies. How much experience do you have with firearms? No trained sniper is going to be out in the open and then risk a shot through safety glass. It is ridiculous to even discuss. Have you been to Dealy Plaza? Convince me by telling me where this shooter would have been to make that shot. Now tell me where is the exit wound for that shot and where did the bullet go? Now you have another problem. Tell me where the exit wound for the shot to the president's back was and where that bullet went? Simple questions that you should have no trouble answering if your theory is correct. Talk about magic bullets!  ;D Rifle bullets go through things Gary. They don't just penetrate a couple of inches and then disappear. Very funny.

So you've been to Dealey Plaza, studied the assassination for decades and have years of hunting and

shooting experience. Based on that resume your of the opinion no shots came from the front.

There were witnesses in Dealey Plaza with plenty of hunting and shooting experience and most of them

headed for the Grassy Knoll because they thought the shots came from there..

And guess what? I find the ear witnesses who were there and heard the shots from the Knoll more

believable.    ;D
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 07, 2018, 10:46:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This is the official back of the head photo, black area bucket filled.

(https://s19.postimg.org/run0g41dr/Autopsy_photo3_Afilled_in.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/run0g41dr/)

Try the same with your back of the head photo, Bill, and see the difference.

This looks Photoshopped. The yellow patch doesn't relate to the ambient light.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 07, 2018, 10:46:46 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Because this is my post and you've made a long list of statements that is no more than your opinion without evidence and I'm not interested in your opinion


If you are not interested in people's opinions why start the post? Now tell me where that shooter was for the shot through the windshield and where did the bullet go? Full body x-rays were made of the president's body and no bullet was found. How do you know your non-magic bullet was a hollow point? Talk about no evidence.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 07, 2018, 10:52:44 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This is the official back of the head photo, black area bucket filled.

(https://s19.postimg.org/run0g41dr/Autopsy_photo3_Afilled_in.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/run0g41dr/)

Try the same with your back of the head photo, Bill, and see the difference.

Apparently Mytton is the only one allowed to make proofs by yellow blob.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 07, 2018, 11:04:03 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'm not concerned whether or not they're authentic.

I'm pointing out that critical photos of the wounds don't exist in the archive.

That's contradictory. You're not concerned about whether the existing photos are authentic or not but you're troubled over photos that might be missing? You hold two conflicting views and don't even know it. The photos don't matter but they matter?  ???
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 07, 2018, 11:29:31 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That's contradictory. You're not concerned about whether the existing photos are authentic or not but you're troubled over photos that might be missing? You hold two conflicting views and don't even know it. The photos don't matter but they matter?  ???

"That's contradictory."

No it's not.

I don't have access to those photos.

If I did have access,  I don't have the photographic experience or tools to determine their authenticity.

Why would/should I waste time trying?

On the other hand I just posted the documentation of the missing photos.

And you clicking your Ruby Slippers together and declaring they never existed doesn't change that fact.

 :P
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 08, 2018, 12:00:18 AM
Arjan Hut had a thread on the old forum called "Erasing the past to protect a fairytale" in which he compiled hundreds of examples of evidence that should exist but for whatever reason is now "missing".  The missing autopsy photos are just the tip of the iceberg.  Can the LNers invent innocent excuses for all of it?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 08, 2018, 01:14:47 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Arjan Hut had a thread on the old forum called "Erasing the past to protect a fairytale" in which he compiled hundreds of examples of evidence that should exist but for whatever reason is now "missing".  The missing autopsy photos are just the tip of the iceberg.  Can the LNers invent innocent excuses for all of it?

Missing autopsy photos are just the tip of the CT fantasy iceberg. Finck never stated that there were autopsy photos missing.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 08, 2018, 01:34:58 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Missing autopsy photos are just the tip of the CT fantasy iceberg. Finck never stated that there were autopsy photos missing.

All aboard the Lone Nutter Merry Go Round.

"Those photos are missing because they were never taken"

"How do you know that they were never taken?"

"Because they are missing!"
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 08, 2018, 01:44:08 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
All aboard the Lone Nutter Merry Go Round.

"Those photos are missing because they were never taken"

"How do you know that they were never taken?"

"Because they are missing!"

(https://i.imgur.com/meyMlD1.gif)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 08, 2018, 02:19:45 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I guess Humes forgot what he said in 1964.

"The area of discoloration on the apical portion of the right upper lung measured five centimeters in greatest diameter, and was wedge shaped in configuration, with its base toward the top of the chest and its apex down towards the substance of the lung.
Once again Kodachrome photographs were made of this area in the interior of the President's chest."
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 08, 2018, 02:43:29 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I guess Humes forgot what he said in 1964.

"The area of discoloration on the apical portion of the right upper lung measured five centimeters in greatest diameter, and was wedge shaped in configuration, with its base toward the top of the chest and its apex down towards the substance of the lung.
Once again Kodachrome photographs were made of this area in the interior of the President's chest."

Forgot what he said in 1964 or came to the realization that such photos were never actually taken. I'm going with the latter. Photos showing discoloration on the apical portion of the right upper lung measuring five centimeters in greatest diameter would support the single bullet theory. I really wish that such photos would have been successfully taken. They obviously were not.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 08, 2018, 02:54:48 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Forgot what he said in 1964 or came to the realization that such photos were never actually taken. I'm going with the latter. Photos showing discoloration on the apical portion of the right upper lung measuring five centimeters in greatest diameter would support the single bullet theory. I really wish that such photos would have been successfully taken. They obviously were not.

"came to the realization that such photos were never actually taken."

The POTUS is assassinated.

Hit twice by rifle fire according to the official narrative.

Once through the throat and once through the skull.

You're proposing photos, that would have indicated the direction the bullets came from and

at least in the neck/back wound their path, weren't taken or were unsuccesfully taken? 

And you're taking that position despite autopsy doctors Humes and Finck specifically referencing

their existance?

Convenient, considering the location of both wounds was adjusted to fit the "LN did it from the 6th floor SE

corner TSBD" official story.

Jerry Ford changed the description of the location of the back wound to the neck in the final draft of the

WCR.

The Clark Panel moved an EOP bullet hole on JFK's skull an incredible 4 inches to the cowlick.

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Organ on March 08, 2018, 03:19:59 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Jerry Ford moved the back wound to the neck in the final draft of the WCR.


You're making it sound like he just willy-nilly shifted the wound site to be as far away as possible from the back. But what he actually did was better-describe its true position as at the base of the back of the neck.

Quote

The Clark Panel moved a EOP bullet hole on JFK's skull an incredible 4 inches to the cowlick.

And you're making it sound like the Clark Panel had literally seen an "EOP bullet hole" on the skull bone. But what they actually did was truthfully describe the back-of-the-scalp bullet hole seen in autopsy photograph and where they interpreted it on a lateral X-ray.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 08, 2018, 03:42:59 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You're making it sound like he just willy-nilly shifted the wound site to be as far away as possible from the back. But what he actually did was better-describe its true position as at the base of the back of the neck.

And you're making it sound like the Clark Panel had literally seen an "EOP bullet hole" on the skull bone. But what they actually did was truthfully describe the back-of-the-scalp bullet hole seen in autopsy photograph and where they interpreted it on a lateral X-ray.

"You're making it sound like he just willy-nilly shifted the wound site to be as far away as possible from the back. But what he actually did was better-describe its true position as at the base of the back of the neck."

Ford's changes were a lie told to perpetuate Arlen Spector's "Magic Bullet" fairytale.

His edit made it sound like the back wound was above the neck wound.

The WC had color autopsy photos of JFK's body.

Rankin told an executive session of the WC that the autopsy photo showed the back wound was below

the neck wound.

Rankin tells McCloy they have color photos of JFK's body from the autopsy
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/backwoundautopsyphotos.jpg)

Rankin tells an executive session of the WC that they have a picture that shows the wound in JFK's back is lower than the one in the front of his neck.
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/backwoundwc_1.jpg)

Report from the autopsy says Dr. Humes located a bullet hole in JFK, below the shoulder.
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/autopsybackwound.jpg)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 08, 2018, 03:53:20 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You're making it sound like he just willy-nilly shifted the wound site to be as far away as possible from the back. But what he actually did was better-describe its true position as at the base of the back of the neck.

And you're making it sound like the Clark Panel had literally seen an "EOP bullet hole" on the skull bone. But what they actually did was truthfully describe the back-of-the-scalp bullet hole seen in autopsy photograph and where they interpreted it on a lateral X-ray.

"And you're making it sound like the Clark Panel had literally seen an "EOP bullet hole" on the skull bone. But what they actually did was truthfully describe the back-of-the-scalp bullet hole seen in autopsy photograph and where they interpreted it on a lateral X-ray."

The autopsy doctors held JFK's skull in their hands and they held their position of a EOP entrance wound

until their deaths.

The Clark Panel decided:

http://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/How5Investigations/How5InvestigationsGotItWrong_2.htm

HOW FIVE INVESTIGATIONS INTO JFK’S MEDICAL/AUTOPSY EVIDENCE GOT IT WRONG
Gary L. Aguilar, MD and Kathy Cunningham

~snip~

"....Based on evaluations of presumably the same pictures and X-rays, the Clark Panel, the Rockefeller Commission and the HSCA later concluded that “the wound” – the entrance site of the fatal bullet in JFK’s head – was not just  “slightly higher” in the images, but 4 inches higher. This is scarcely a negligible discrepancy, given that the area of the back of the head in which it was concluded there had been a 4 inch error only measures, top-to-bottom about 5 &1/2 inches. Nowhere in either of the 1966 or 1967 reviews did JFK’s pathologists acknowledge there was a huge disparity between the wounds in their autopsy report and those in “their” pictures and X-rays. Moreover, on the question of the fragments in the X-ray, the pathologists failed to mention that the antero-posterior trail of fragments in the lateral X-ray are in an entirely different location than specified in their autopsy report....."

~snip~

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/XrayLateral.jpg)
"Lateral X-Ray taken during the autopsy of President Kennedy, showing a trail of apparent metal fragments high in the skull. The Clark Panel's declaration that the line described by these fragments "passes through the above-mentioned hole" [i.e, the bullet entrance] is not accurate. The "above-mentioned hole" can be seen as a step-off, or a crack, in the skull at the left side of the skull. Anyone can see that, as the House Select Committee was later to report, the "trail" of fragments is considerably higher than the step-off, ion fact, 4-cm higher, according to the Select Committee."

~snip~

"Worse yet, the Panel incorrectly described the trail’s true position as, “on lateral film #2 this (fragment) formation(’s) long axis, if extended posteriorly, passes through the above-mentioned (new entrance) hole.”[184] That fragment trail does not line up with the presumed higher entrance hole. As one of the authors (Aguilar) determined by looking at the original X-rays, the trail lies noticeably higher than that level. This is not a new discovery. In 1978, HSCA expert radiologist David O. Davis, MD reported that the trail extended, “anteriorly from the inner table of the skull at a point approximately 6-cm. antero-superiorly from the previously described embedded metallic fragment.”

~snip~


Two separate investigations, two separate wounds to JFK's skull.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 08, 2018, 04:04:06 PM
Good posts, Gary.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 08, 2018, 04:25:29 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/QCtKH4w.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RgkPjye.jpg)

"Examination of photographs of anterior and posterior views of thorax, and anterior, posterior and lateral views of neck (Photographs 3, 4, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 17, 18, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 38, 39, 40, 41). There is an elliptical penetrating wound of the skin of the back located approximately 15 cm. medial to the right acromial process, 5 cm. lateral to the mid-dorsal line and 14 cm. below the right mastoid process. This wound lies approximately 5.5 cm. below a transverse fold in the skin of the neck. This fold can also be seen in a lateral view of the neck which shows an anterior tracheotomy wound. This view makes it possible to compare the levels of these two wounds in relation to that of the horizontal plane of the body. A well defined zone of discoloration of the edge of the back wound, most pronounced on its upper and outer margins, identifies it as having the characteristics of the entrance wound of a bullet. The wound with its marginal abrasion measures approximately 7 mm. in width by 10 mm. in length. The dimensions of this cutaneous wound are consistent with those of a wound produced by a bullet similar to that which constitutes exhibit CE 399. At the site of and above the tracheotomy incision in the front of the neck, there can be identified the upper half of the circumference of a circular cutaneous wound the appearance of which is characteristic of that of the exit wound of a bullet. The lower half of this circular wound is obscured by the surgically produced tracheotomy incision which transects it. The center of the circular wound is situated approximately 9 cm. below the transverse fold in the skin of the neck described in a preceding paragraph. This indicates that the bullet which produced the two wounds followed a course downward and to the left in Its passage through the body."

http://www.jfklancer.com/ClarkPanel.html

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/neckwound/bunch/necktransitbunch.gif)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 08, 2018, 04:53:04 PM
 ::)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 08, 2018, 06:42:47 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Bottom line, the description of the location of the hole in JFK's back was changed in the final draft of the

WCR to accommodate Arlen Spector's theory about a Magic Bullet causing seven wounds in JFK & JBC.

When public criticism of the WC caused the government to re-examine the autopsy photos , x-rays etc,

a photo of JFK's right lung and chest cavity, that would have showed the direction and path of that missile,

was nowhere to be found.

The same criticism noted the entry point low on the back of JFK's skull, from a bullet fired from the

6th floor SE corner TSBD, doesn't jibe with the official account of the damage. Another

government re-examination of the autopsy materials found the photos of the hole in JFK's skull at the

EOP were not in the archive. Those photos, of the inside and outside of the skull bone,

where the bullet entered, were taken specifically to show cratering.

Cratering indicates the direction the missile was fired from.

Not long after, the Clark Panel decided the original autopsy had got it wrong. It determined the photos and

x-rays show the entry point was 4 inches higher, at the cowlick. The x-rays show a trail of metal

particles high on JFK's skull. Caused, apparently, by the path of a disintegrating projectile.

Two seperate government investigations, two seperate wounds to JFK's head.

Deal with it.


"They have everything to do with what we were discussing before you decided to divert away.

~snip~

Excluding the line that has been added to the bottom one, do you accept those two photos as being authentic? Yes or no."


LOL

Formatting: Tell us why you hit the Return key while still on the same sentence. It seems you have used typewriters at some point. Keep in mind that the size of this panel expands/shrinks as opposed to an actual sheet of paper.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 08, 2018, 07:23:49 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

If you are not interested in people's opinions why start the post? Now tell me where that shooter was for the shot through the windshield and where did the bullet go? Full body x-rays were made of the president's body and no bullet was found. How do you know your non-magic bullet was a hollow point? Talk about no evidence.

You don't get it do you?  So I won't waste any more time on you.  My post was for opinions backed up with ome form of cited evidence not your life story of you impersonating Elmer Fudd with your hunting rifle.  That's plain pitiful.

Full body X rays? ok great show me the one of JFK's right lung then Einstein
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 08, 2018, 07:26:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Missing autopsy photos are just the tip of the CT fantasy iceberg. Finck never stated that there were autopsy photos missing.

Your new mate Wesley just admitted it.  You two are having a right LNer love in
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 08, 2018, 07:30:15 PM
Great posts Gary
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 08, 2018, 08:20:36 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
So you've been to Dealey Plaza, studied the assassination for decades and have years of hunting and

shooting experience. Based on that resume your of the opinion no shots came from the front.

There were witnesses in Dealey Plaza with plenty of hunting and shooting experience and most of them

headed for the Grassy Knoll because they thought the shots came from there..

And guess what? I find the ear witnesses who were there and heard the shots from the Knoll more

believable.    ;D



Okay Gary, forget that I have experience with firearms and been to Dealy Plaza. You said "most of them headed for the grassy knoll". How many and who are they? Kindly tell me where the shooter was for putting a shot through the windshield and hitting the president in the throat? Given the layout of the Plaza, the angle and incline of Elm St., the position of the limo at the time the president reacted to that shot, physically where was that shooter? Can you name the ear witnesses that heard a shot come from the area of the triple underpass? Where did the bullet go to? 
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 08, 2018, 08:40:14 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You don't get it do you?  So I won't waste any more time on you.  My post was for opinions backed up with ome form of cited evidence not your life story of you impersonating Elmer Fudd with your hunting rifle.  That's plain pitiful.

Full body X rays? ok great show me the one of JFK's right lung then Einstein


Lee I'm going to overlook your petty attempt at insulting me. It is what you CT buffs always resort to when you can't answer questions. You have admitted that you think a shot from the front lodged in the president's windpipe. Where did that bullet go? Where was the shooter physically at to pull off that shot? You admitted there was no "magic bullet" and that the shot that hit the president in the back went through the president's body and also struck Connally. Where is the exit wound on the president's body for that shot and where did the bullet go?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 08, 2018, 08:59:08 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Lee I'm going to overlook your petty attempt at insulting me. It is what you CT buffs always resort to when you can't answer questions. You have admitted that you think a shot from the front lodged in the president's windpipe. Where did that bullet go? Where was the shooter physically at to pull off that shot? You admitted there was no "magic bullet" and that the shot that hit the president in the back went through the president's body and also struck Connally. Where is the exit wound on the president's body for that shot and where did the bullet go?

ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz...................
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 08, 2018, 09:12:35 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz...................


What no lame insult this time Lee? You admitted that you think a shot hit the president in the throat from a shot through the windshield and that the bullet lodged in his windpipe. Where is that bullet and where was the shooter physically at in Dealy Plaza? You claimed the shot that hit the president in the back went through his body and hit Connally. Where was the exit wound for that shot and where is the bullet?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 08, 2018, 09:27:29 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

What no lame insult this time Lee? You admitted that you think a shot hit the president in the throat from a shot through the windshield and that the bullet lodged in his windpipe. Where is that bullet and where was the shooter physically at in Dealy Plaza? You claimed the shot that hit the president in the back went through his body and hit Connally. Where was the exit wound for that shot and where is the bullet?

ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 08, 2018, 09:35:21 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz



Well it was pretty easy to shut you up. That's weak. Once again.  You admitted that you think a shot hit the president in the throat from a shot through the windshield and that the bullet lodged in his windpipe. Where is that bullet and where was the shooter physically at in Dealy Plaza? You claimed the shot that hit the president in the back went through his body and hit Connally. Where was the exit wound for that shot and where is the bullet?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 09, 2018, 04:19:42 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Formatting: Tell us why you hit the Return key while still on the same sentence. It seems you have used typewriters at some point. Keep in mind that the size of this panel expands/shrinks as opposed to an actual sheet of paper.

When I edited and made changes some sentences got shorter and I didn't bother with fixing the visual.

  8)

-------------------------------------


Bottom line, the description of the location of the hole in JFK's back was changed in the final draft of the

WCR to accommodate Arlen Spector's theory about a Magic Bullet causing seven wounds in JFK & JBC.

When public criticism of the WC caused the government to re-examine the autopsy photos , x-rays etc,

a photo of JFK's right lung and chest cavity, that would have showed the direction and path of that missile,

was nowhere to be found.

The same criticism noted the entry point low on the back of JFK's skull, from a bullet fired from the

6th floor SE corner TSBD, doesn't jibe with the official account of the damage. Another government re-

examination of the autopsy materials found the photos of the hole in JFK's skull at the EOP were not in the

archive. Those photos, of the inside and outside of the skull bone,where the bullet entered, were taken

specifically to show cratering. Cratering indicates the direction the missile was fired from.Not long after,

the Clark Panel decided the original autopsy had got it wrong. It determined the photos and x-rays show

the entry point was 4 inches higher, at the cowlick. The x-rays show a trail of metal particles high on JFK's

skull. Caused, apparently, by the path of a disintegrating projectile. Two seperate government

investigations, two seperate wounds to JFK's head.

Deal with it.

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 09, 2018, 04:20:29 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Good posts, Gary.

Thank You
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 09, 2018, 04:21:04 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Great posts Gary

Thank You
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 09, 2018, 04:28:45 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Okay Gary, forget that I have experience with firearms and been to Dealy Plaza. You said "most of them headed for the grassy knoll". How many and who are they? Kindly tell me where the shooter was for putting a shot through the windshield and hitting the president in the throat? Given the layout of the Plaza, the angle and incline of Elm St., the position of the limo at the time the president reacted to that shot, physically where was that shooter? Can you name the ear witnesses that heard a shot come from the area of the triple underpass? Where did the bullet go to?

"You said "most of them headed for the grassy knoll". How many and who are they?"

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Decker_Ex_5323.pdf
DECKER EXHIBIT No. 5323

-snip-

"As I heard the
first retort, I looked back over my shoulder and saw
what appeared to me to be a spray of water come out of
the rear seat of the President's car . At this same
moment, Mr . Lawson said, "Let's get out of here and
get to the nearest hospital". When I heard the shots
I noted motorcycle officers coming off their cycles
and running up the embankment on Dealey Plaza."


-snip-

--------------------------


Before me,the undersigned authority, on this the 22nd day of November 23, 1963
personally appeared Hugh William Betzner, Jr . Address 5922 Velasco, Dallas
Age 22


-snip-

"Then the President's car sped on
under the underpass . Police and a lot of spectators started running up
the hill on the opposite side of the street from me to a fence of wood . I
assumed that that was where the shot was fired from at that time . I kept
watching the crowd."


-snip-

--------------------------

Before me, the undersigned authority, on this the 22 day of November 22, l963
personally appeared S . M. Holland Address 1119 Lucille, Irvin


-snip-

"I looked over toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of
smoke come from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first
Shot but that was the only puff of smoke I saw . I immediately ran around
to where I could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running
from there . But the puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind
the arcade through the trees.'


-snip-

--------------------------

Before me, the undersigned authority. on this the 22nd day of November 23, 1963
personally appeared William Eugene Newman


-snip-

"Then the car sped away and
everybody in that area had run upon top of that little mound . I thought the
shots had come from the garden directly behind me, that was on an elevation
from where I was as I was right on the curb. I do not recall looking toward
the Texas School Book Depository . I looked back in the vacinity of the Garden."


-snip-

-----------------------------------------

Before me, the undersigned authority. on this the 22nd day of November 1963
petsonally appeared Mr J.C. Price Address 9602 Astor, Dallas


'This day at about 1235 PM I was on the roof of the Termaniel Annex Bldg on the
NE Corner when the presidential Motorcade came down Main to Houston, North on
Houston and then West on Elm. The cars had proceeded West on Elm and was
just a short distance from the Tripple underpass, when I saw Gov Connelly
slump over . I did not see the president as his car had gotten out of my
view under the underpass . There was a volley of shots, I think five and then
much later, maybe as much as five minutes later another one . I saw one man
run towards the passenger cars on the railroad siding after the volley of shots.
This man had a white dress shirt, no tie and kahki colored trousers . His hair
appeared to be long and dark and his agility running could be about 25 yrs of
age. He had something in his hand.'


-snip-

----------------------------------------

Before me. the undersigned Authority, on this the 23rd day of November 1963
personally appeared Malcolm Summers.


"Yesterday, November 22, 1963, I was standing on the terrace of the
small park on Elm Street to watch the President's motorcade . The
President's car had just come up in front of me when I heard a shot
and aaw the President slump down in the car and beard Mrs . Kennedy
say, "Oh, no" ., then a second shot and then I hit the ground as I
realized these were shots . Then all of the people started running
up the terrace away from the President's car and I got up and started
running also, not realizing what had happened . In just a few moments
the President's car sped off and everybody was just running around
towards the railroad tracks and I knew that they had somebody trapped
up there."


-snip-

--------------------------------

COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION . REPORT
Name of Complainant
PRESIDENT JOHN F . KENNEDY
ASSASSINATION



-snip-

"I ran around the Corner and directly across the street across the Dealey
Plaza to the Elm street side of the triple underpass . As we were
running across the street, we could see the presidential car pulling away
under the underpass and we continued on to the immediate area. Some stopped
to talk to people standing there as there were a number of women who
were hysterical. We could not get any information except that the
President had been shot, Several of the other officers in the group ran
on into the freight yards."


-snip-

----------------------------

ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT
Officer A . D. McCurley, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Office .
Ralph Walters


"I heard a retort and immediately recognized it as the sound of a rifle. I started running around the corner where I knew the President's car should be and in a matter of a few seconds heard a second shot and then a third shot, I, along with other officers who had been standing near me, all started running and I rushed towards the park and saw people running towards
the railroad yards beyond Elm street..."


-snip-
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 09, 2018, 04:39:13 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Okay Gary, forget that I have experience with firearms and been to Dealy Plaza. You said "most of them headed for the grassy knoll". How many and who are they? Kindly tell me where the shooter was for putting a shot through the windshield and hitting the president in the throat? Given the layout of the Plaza, the angle and incline of Elm St., the position of the limo at the time the president reacted to that shot, physically where was that shooter? Can you name the ear witnesses that heard a shot come from the area of the triple underpass? Where did the bullet go to?

"Kindly tell me where the shooter was for putting a shot through the windshield and hitting the president in the throat?"

I don't claimed a bullet went through the windshield and hit JFK in the throat. Although it is a possibility.

"Given the layout of the Plaza, the angle and incline of Elm St., the position of the limo at the time the president reacted to that shot, physically where was that shooter?"


TESTIMONY OF (some of the) EYE-WITNESSES WHO THOUGHT SHOTS CAME FROM OTHER THAN The TSBD

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40392&relPageId=44 (http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40392&relPageId=44)

1.  Danny Garcia Arces - Shots came from railroad track yards.
2.  Mrs. Donald Sam Baker - Shots came from railroad yards;not possible to come from the TSBD.
3.  Mrs. A. G.(Jane)Berry- Thought shots came from west of her position.
4.  O. V. Campbell - Thought shots came from railroad yard to west of the TSBD.
5.  Mrs. Charles Thomas (Avery) Davis - Thought shots came from triple underpass.
6.  Mrs. John T. (Elsie) Dorman) - She was on the 4th floor of TSBD and thought shots came from Records Building.
7.  Mr. and Mrs. Jack Franzen - Thought shots came from area adjacent to TSBD.
8.  Buell Wesley Frazier - Thought shots came from railroad overpass.
9.  Dorthy Ann Garner - Thought shots came from west of TSBD (she was on 4th floor or TSBD)
10. Bobby W. Hargis - Believes shot came from right front (grassy knoll area) - from overpass
11. Mrs. John Hawkins - Thought shots came from railroad yards adjacent to TSBD.
12. Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill - Thought shots were coming from the knoll, just west of the TSBD.
13. Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes - Thought shots came from crowd.
14. Mrs. Yola D. Hopson - Did not think the sound (of the shots) came from the TSBD.
15. Emmet Joseph Hudson - Shots came from behind and above him; from rear, high. (He was on steps leading up knoll)
16. Mrs. George Andrew Kounas - Thought shots came from the west.
17. Secret Service Agent Paul E. Landis Jr. - 1st shot came from behind and over right shoulder; 2nd shot came from right   front and hit President's head.
18. Billy Nolan Lovelady - Thought shots came from the knoll of from across the street.
19. Judith L. McCully - From right side of arcade building.
20. Austin Lawerence Miller - Shots came from his left (he was standing on the triple underpass).
21. A. J. Millican - Shots came from the pergola.
22. Joe R. Molina - Shots came from west side (he was on steps of TSBD.
23. Thomas J. Murphy - Shots came from spot just west of TSBD.
24. Mrs. P. E. Newman - Shots came from her right (west). She was halfway from TSBD to Stemmons Freeway sign.
25. William E Newman, Jr. - Shots came from "garden" directly behind Newman (he was standing at east end of pergola)
26. Mrs. William V. Parker - First shot came from pergola.
27. J. C. Price - Assumed shots from Triple Underpass.
28. Frank E. Reilly - Shots came from trees at west end of pergola on north side of Elm. (He was standing on                  Triple Underpass). 
29. Mrs. A. L. Rowland - Shots came from railroad yard.
30. W. H. (Bill) Shelly - Shots came from west (he was on TSBD steps)
31. Police Officer Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. - Shots came from railroad yard or grassy knoll area.
32. Officer Joe Marshall Smith - Thought shots came from Elm St.extension, bushes of the overpass.
33. Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels - Shots came from knoll;'top of terrace to my right.
34. James Thomas Tague - Shots came from bushes at pergola.
35. Roy S. Truly - Shots came from west of TSBD.
36. Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford - Shots came from railroad yard.
37. County Surveyor Robert M. West - Shots came from northeast quadrant of Dealy Plaza.
38. Lupe Whitaker - Shots came from west of TSBD.
39. Otis Neville Williams - Came from direction of Triple Underpass.
40. Steven F. Wilson - Shots came from west end of building or pergola; not above.
    (He was on 3rd floor of TSBD)

41. Mary Elizabeth Woodward - Possibly came from overpass.
42. Abraham Zapruder - Shots came from in back of him.
43. Deputy Sheriff Harold Elkins
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 09, 2018, 04:46:31 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Okay Gary, forget that I have experience with firearms and been to Dealy Plaza. You said "most of them headed for the grassy knoll". How many and who are they? Kindly tell me where the shooter was for putting a shot through the windshield and hitting the president in the throat? Given the layout of the Plaza, the angle and incline of Elm St., the position of the limo at the time the president reacted to that shot, physically where was that shooter? Can you name the ear witnesses that heard a shot come from the area of the triple underpass? Where did the bullet go to?

"Where did the bullet go to?"

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/hittingpavement4.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/hittingpavement3.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/hittingpavement2.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/hittingpavement1.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/hittingpavement.jpg)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 09, 2018, 05:12:20 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Well it was pretty easy to shut you up. That's weak. Once again.  You admitted that you think a shot hit the president in the throat from a shot through the windshield and that the bullet lodged in his windpipe. Where is that bullet and where was the shooter physically at in Dealy Plaza? You claimed the shot that hit the president in the back went through his body and hit Connally. Where was the exit wound for that shot and where is the bullet?

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 09, 2018, 05:14:25 PM
hahahaha Gary!!!  BOOM, BOOM, BOOM
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 09, 2018, 05:35:54 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"Kindly tell me where the shooter was for putting a shot through the windshield and hitting the president in the throat?"

I don't claimed a bullet went through the windshield and hit JFK in the throat. Although it is a possibility.

"Given the layout of the Plaza, the angle and incline of Elm St., the position of the limo at the time the president reacted to that shot, physically where was that shooter?"


TESTIMONY OF (some of the) EYE-WITNESSES WHO THOUGHT SHOTS CAME FROM OTHER THAN The TSBD

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40392&relPageId=44 (http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40392&relPageId=44)

1.  Danny Garcia Arces - Shots came from railroad track yards.
2.  Mrs. Donald Sam Baker - Shots came from railroad yards;not possible to come from the TSBD.
3.  Mrs. A. G.(Jane)Berry- Thought shots came from west of her position.
4.  O. V. Campbell - Thought shots came from railroad yard to west of the TSBD.
5.  Mrs. Charles Thomas (Avery) Davis - Thought shots came from triple underpass.
6.  Mrs. John T. (Elsie) Dorman) - She was on the 4th floor of TSBD and thought shots came from Records Building.
7.  Mr. and Mrs. Jack Franzen - Thought shots came from area adjacent to TSBD.
8.  Buell Wesley Frazier - Thought shots came from railroad overpass.
9.  Dorthy Ann Garner - Thought shots came from west of TSBD (she was on 4th floor or TSBD)
10. Bobby W. Hargis - Believes shot came from right front (grassy knoll area) - from overpass
11. Mrs. John Hawkins - Thought shots came from railroad yards adjacent to TSBD.
12. Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill - Thought shots were coming from the knoll, just west of the TSBD.
13. Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes - Thought shots came from crowd.
14. Mrs. Yola D. Hopson - Did not think the sound (of the shots) came from the TSBD.
15. Emmet Joseph Hudson - Shots came from behind and above him; from rear, high. (He was on steps leading up knoll)
16. Mrs. George Andrew Kounas - Thought shots came from the west.
17. Secret Service Agent Paul E. Landis Jr. - 1st shot came from behind and over right shoulder; 2nd shot came from right   front and hit President's head.
18. Billy Nolan Lovelady - Thought shots came from the knoll of from across the street.
19. Judith L. McCully - From right side of arcade building.
20. Austin Lawerence Miller - Shots came from his left (he was standing on the triple underpass).
21. A. J. Millican - Shots came from the pergola.
22. Joe R. Molina - Shots came from west side (he was on steps of TSBD.
23. Thomas J. Murphy - Shots came from spot just west of TSBD.
24. Mrs. P. E. Newman - Shots came from her right (west). She was halfway from TSBD to Stemmons Freeway sign.
25. William E Newman, Jr. - Shots came from "garden" directly behind Newman (he was standing at east end of pergola)
26. Mrs. William V. Parker - First shot came from pergola.
27. J. C. Price - Assumed shots from Triple Underpass.
28. Frank E. Reilly - Shots came from trees at west end of pergola on north side of Elm. (He was standing on                  Triple Underpass). 
29. Mrs. A. L. Rowland - Shots came from railroad yard.
30. W. H. (Bill) Shelly - Shots came from west (he was on TSBD steps)
31. Police Officer Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. - Shots came from railroad yard or grassy knoll area.
32. Officer Joe Marshall Smith - Thought shots came from Elm St.extension, bushes of the overpass.
33. Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels - Shots came from knoll;'top of terrace to my right.
34. James Thomas Tague - Shots came from bushes at pergola.
35. Roy S. Truly - Shots came from west of TSBD.
36. Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford - Shots came from railroad yard.
37. County Surveyor Robert M. West - Shots came from northeast quadrant of Dealy Plaza.
38. Lupe Whitaker - Shots came from west of TSBD.
39. Otis Neville Williams - Came from direction of Triple Underpass.
40. Steven F. Wilson - Shots came from west end of building or pergola; not above.
    (He was on 3rd floor of TSBD)

41. Mary Elizabeth Woodward - Possibly came from overpass.
42. Abraham Zapruder - Shots came from in back of him.
43. Deputy Sheriff Harold Elkins


Gary, I could insert a big long list of people who said they heard three shots from the TSBD, as well, but that would be droll. Good job of inserting all that though. That must have been tedious. I do not dispute that people said they heard the shots from the TSBD or the Knoll, merely the "majority" part. If you relied, at all, on Josiah Thompson's work then you might want to rethink it. Here's the problem Gary. The vast "majority" of ear witnesses and eye witnesses at Dealy Plaza that day said they heard only (3) shots. And even authors like Thompson will tell you that. Depending on what source you cite most of the time the "majority" of witnesses claimed (3) whether they say from the TSBD or the Grassy Knoll or somewhere else. When you take into account the statements made by witnesses like Jarman, Norman, and Williams who were right below the 6th floor window and the witnesses who saw "a gunman" in the 6th floor window of the TSBD then the argument for the grassy knoll becomes more difficult. The original thread here, Lee is claiming more than (3) shots which is not supported by the "majority" of witnesses. Do you agree? How many shots do you think there were?  By the way, just a trivia note on Zapruder. When asked about where the shots were fired from, he said he assumed they came from behind him. When asked further if he had formed an opinion on the direction of the shots he said, "No there was too much reverberation. There was an echo which gave me a sound all over. In other words that square is kind of ---it had a sound all over." Interesting.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 09, 2018, 05:42:56 PM
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=622&relPageId=5 (http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=622&relPageId=5)

ARRB MD 41 - White House Transcript of Dallas Press Conference

-snip-

Q. Where was the entrance wound?

Dr.Perry: There was an entrance wound in the neck, in regards the one on the
head, I cannot say.


Q. Which way was the bullet coming on the neck wound? At him?

Dr.Perry: It appeared to be coming at him.

-snip-

Q. Doctor, describe the entrance wound. You think from the front in the throat?

Dr.Perry: The wound appeared to be an entrance wound in the front of the throat; yes,
that is correct.


-snip-

----------------------

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/31st_Issue/vs_wounds.html (http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/31st_Issue/vs_wounds.html)

Mr. Specter. What would be the considerations which, in your mind, would make it, as you characterized it, unlikely?

Dr. Baxter. It would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet would create would be--first its speed would create a shock wave which would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend to strike, or usually would strike, tissues of greater density than this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would create larger jagged--the further it went, the more jagged would be the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a rather large wound of exit. (VI, H-42)

"Mr. Specter had even more severe problems with Dr. Ronald Coy Jones of Parkland Hospital, whom he asked about the neck wounds:"

Mr. Specter. In this report, Dr. Jones, you state the following, "Previously described severe skull and brain injury was noted as well as a small hole in the anterior midline of the neck thought to be a bullet entrance wound." What led you to the thought that it was a bullet entrance wound, sir?

Dr. Jones. The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this appeared to have on superficial examination. (VI, H-55)

"Even Mr. Specter could not find in this account much opportunity for turning this neck wound into an exit wound. So, in good prosecutor-like fashion, he prodded for the thin slant of Commission daylight in Dr. Jones's otherwise dark view of the Commission's suggestions:"

Mr. Specter. Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of low velocity, as you put it?

Dr. Jones. Yes, of very low velocity to the point that you might think that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side. (VI, H-55)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 09, 2018, 05:47:15 PM
Another take on ear witnesses.

"Of the 216 witnesses who were interviewed by the FBI or the Warren Commission, 73 of them were Dallas Police Officers, Dallas Deputy Sheriffs, Secret Service Agents and other government employees who traditionally tend to identify with the government’s case. Thus, the tabulation of 216 witnesses (culled from the Warren Commission’s 26 Volumes and from Commission Documents stored in the National Archives) does not constitute a random sample of the witnesses to the assassination. Hence, it cannot be the basis for an accurate statistical analysis of witness accounts. What happens if we separate out the 73 government employees from the 143 nongovernment employees?"

   143 Nongovernment Employees       73 Government Employees
              Depository 22                               Depository 26
                      Knoll 44                                        Knoll 8

http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/Sort216Witness.htm

--------------------------------------

House Select Committee on Assassinations Final Report
Current Section:  Witness testimony on the shots


"An analysis by the committee of the statements of witnesses in Dealy Plaza on November 22, 1963, moreover, showed that about 44 percent were not able to form an opinion about the origin of the shots, attesting to the ambiguity showed in the August 1978 experiment. Seventy percent of the witnesses in 1963 who had an opinion as to the origin said it was either the book depository or the grassy knoll. Those witnesses who thought the shots originated from the grassy knoll represented 30 percent of those who chose between the knoll and book depository and 21 percent of those who made a decision as to origin. Since most of the shots fired on November 22, 1963 (three out of four, the committee determined) came from the book depository, the fact that so many witnesses thought they heard shots from
the knoll lent additional weight to a conclusion that a shot came from there."


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=800&relPageId=120
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 09, 2018, 05:55:51 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Gary, I could insert a big long list of people who said they heard three shots from the TSBD, as well, but that would be droll. Good job of inserting all that though. That must have been tedious. I do not dispute that people said they heard the shots from the TSBD or the Knoll, merely the "majority" part. If you relied, at all, on Josiah Thompson's work then you might want to rethink it. Here's the problem Gary. The vast "majority" of ear witnesses and eye witnesses at Dealy Plaza that day said they heard only (3) shots. And even authors like Thompson will tell you that. Depending on what source you cite most of the time the "majority" of witnesses claimed (3) whether they say from the TSBD or the Grassy Knoll or somewhere else. When you take into account the statements made by witnesses like Jarman, Norman, and Williams who were right below the 6th floor window and the witnesses who saw "a gunman" in the 6th floor window of the TSBD then the argument for the grassy knoll becomes more difficult. The original thread here, Lee is claiming more than (3) shots which is not supported by the "majority" of witnesses. Do you agree? How many shots do you think there were?  By the way, just a trivia note on Zapruder. When asked about where the shots were fired from, he said he assumed they came from behind him. When asked further if he had formed an opinion on the direction of the shots he said, "No there was too much reverberation. There was an echo which gave me a sound all over. In other words that square is kind of ---it had a sound all over." Interesting.

"When you take into account the statements made by witnesses like Jarman, Norman, and Williams who were right below the 6th floor window and the witnesses who saw "a gunman" in the 6th floor window of the TSBD then the argument for the grassy knoll becomes more difficult.


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=35&relPageId=304

Mr. Hargis: I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential Limousine.
Mr. Stern: Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. Hargis: Right.

"....Well at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't
anyway in the world I could tell where they were coming from but at the time there
was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the
 railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered with blood-I was just
a little back and left of-just a little back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know.
I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository. and these places
was the primary place that could have been shot from....

....I ran across the street looking over towards the railroad overpass and I remembered
seeing people scattering and running and then I looked--...

.....and then I looked over to the Texas School Book Depository Building, and no one that
was standing at the base of the building was--seemed to be looking up at the building or
anything like they knew where the shots were coming from
, so.....

.....Well, then, I thought since I had looked over at the Texas Book Depository and some
people looking out of the windows up there, didn't seem like they knew what was going on,
but none of them were looking towards or near anywhere the shots had been fired from
....."

Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 09, 2018, 06:08:13 PM


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 09, 2018, 06:18:26 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"When you take into account the statements made by witnesses like Jarman, Norman, and Williams who were right below the 6th floor window and the witnesses who saw "a gunman" in the 6th floor window of the TSBD then the argument for the grassy knoll becomes more difficult.


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=35&relPageId=304

Mr. Hargis: I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential Limousine.
Mr. Stern: Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. Hargis: Right.

"....Well at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't
anyway in the world I could tell where they were coming from but at the time there
was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the
 railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered with blood-I was just
a little back and left of-just a little back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know.
I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository. and these places
was the primary place that could have been shot from....

....I ran across the street looking over towards the railroad overpass and I remembered
seeing people scattering and running and then I looked--...

.....and then I looked over to the Texas School Book Depository Building, and no one that
was standing at the base of the building was--seemed to be looking up at the building or
anything like they knew where the shots were coming from
, so.....

.....Well, then, I thought since I had looked over at the Texas Book Depository and some
people looking out of the windows up there, didn't seem like they knew what was going on,
but none of them were looking towards or near anywhere the shots had been fired from
....."


Gary, how many shots do you say were fired? Dr. Perry and Dr. Carrico both said, after they found out the autopsy results that the throat wound was probably an exit wound. Come on Gary, you seemed informed on the subject, so you know this.

Q. Where was the entrance wound?

Dr.Perry: There was an entrance wound in the neck, in regards the one on the
head, I cannot say.

Q. Which way was the bullet coming on the neck wound? At him?

Dr.Perry: It appeared to be coming at him.


-snip-

Q. Doctor, describe the entrance wound. You think from the front in the throat?

Dr.Perry: The wound appeared to be an entrance wound in the front of the throat; yes,
that is correct.



Gary, you wrote in a previous post that you didn't say a shot came through the windshield and yet you are putting Dr. Perry's statement in here. You know that the fibers of the presidents jacket, shirt and tie were analyzed and the fibers were all pointing in the direction of the bullet which was consistent with a shot from the back. Now if you don't think a shot came through the windshield and hit the president's throat, yet you have inserted Dr. Perry's statement of the wound being an entrance wound, then tell me where the shooter was for that shot and where was the exit wound for that shot and if it didn't exit then where is the bullet? Now tell me where the exit wound for the wound to the president's back was and if it didn't exit then where is the bullet?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 09, 2018, 06:29:07 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Gary, how many shots do you say were fired? Dr. Perry and Dr. Carrico both said, after they found out the autopsy results that the throat wound was probably an exit wound. Come on Gary, you seemed informed on the subject, so you know this.

Q. Where was the entrance wound?

Dr.Perry: There was an entrance wound in the neck, in regards the one on the
head, I cannot say.

Q. Which way was the bullet coming on the neck wound? At him?

Dr.Perry: It appeared to be coming at him.


-snip-

Q. Doctor, describe the entrance wound. You think from the front in the throat?

Dr.Perry: The wound appeared to be an entrance wound in the front of the throat; yes,
that is correct.



Gary, you wrote in a previous post that you didn't say a shot came through the windshield and yet you are putting Dr. Perry's statement in here. You know that the fibers of the presidents jacket, shirt and tie were analyzed and the fibers were all pointing in the direction of the bullet which was consistent with a shot from the back. Now if you don't think a shot came through the windshield and hit the president's throat, yet you have inserted Dr. Perry's statement of the wound being an entrance wound, then tell me where the shooter was for that shot and where was the exit wound for that shot and if it didn't exit then where is the bullet? Now tell me where the exit wound for the wound to the president's back was and if it didn't exit then where is the bullet?

Willis #5, the photo he said he took at the sound of the first shot, provides a great view.
A unobstructed shot from behind the picket fence on the knoll from the spot the HSCA said their acoustic tests said one was fired from.

And I just posted several witnesses who saw bullets hitting pavement.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/willis%205z.jpg)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 09, 2018, 06:42:29 PM
"A unobstructed shot from behind the picket fence on the knoll from the spot the HSCA said their acoustic tests said one was fired from."

"And I just posted several witnesses who saw bullets hitting pavement."


Come on Gary, you are dodging the questions. You said, you didn't say a shot came from through the windshield. If a shot did hit the president from through the windshield, the angle from the knoll is all wrong. I've been there. It doesn't work Gary. The majority of the ear witnesses, (even from CT authors) claimed only three shots. Josiah Thompson said only (4) witnesses said more than three shots, no matter from what direction. Now, how many shots do you believe were fired? Do you believe a shot came through the windshield? If not, where was the shooter for the throat shot CT'ers claim? Where is the exit wound for that shot? Where was the shooter for that shot? If it didn't exit, then where is that bullet? If the president was shot from the front, then where is the exit wound for the wound in the presidents back? If the back wound did not exit, where is the bullet for that wound? These are straight forward questions Gary, and I don't need to copy and paste to answer them. 
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Gary Craig on March 09, 2018, 06:49:10 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"A unobstructed shot from behind the picket fence on the knoll from the spot the HSCA said their acoustic tests said one was fired from."

"And I just posted several witnesses who saw bullets hitting pavement."


Come on Gary, you are dodging the questions. You said, you didn't say a shot came from through the windshield. If a shot did hit the president from through the windshield, the angle from the knoll is all wrong. I've been there. It doesn't work Gary. The majority of the ear witnesses, (even from CT authors) claimed only three shots. Josiah Thompson said only (4) witnesses said more than three shots, no matter from what direction. Now, how many shots do you believe were fired? Do you believe a shot came through the windshield? If not, where was the shooter for the throat shot CT'ers claim? Where is the exit wound for that shot? Where was the shooter for that shot? If it didn't exit, then where is that bullet? If the president was shot from the front, then where is the exit wound for the wound in the presidents back? If the back wound did not exit, where is the bullet for that wound? "These are straight forward questions Gary, and I don't need to copy and paste to answer them."

"These are straight forward questions Gary, and I don't need to copy and paste to answer them."

We're done.

You bring nothing to the table.

Then post this?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 09, 2018, 07:22:59 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"These are straight forward questions Gary, and I don't need to copy and paste to answer them."

We're done.

You bring nothing to the table.

Then post this?


I bring nothing to the table? Funny. You can't even answer a simple question of how many shots were fired. But, thanks for the debate. Good luck.

PS: You threw in the information from the HSCA. You realize that they concluded that the president was struck twice from above and behind. They also concluded that a shot could have come from the grassy knoll but missed. They used acoustic evidence for this conclusion. You know that the HSCA finding based on acoustic evidence was debunked years ago. The open mike recording they used was found to have been on a police motorcycle parked at the Trade Mart and idling.  ;D
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 13, 2018, 10:29:38 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Where did the bullet go to?

Do you believe there was a first missed shot?  Where did the bullet go to?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 13, 2018, 10:31:06 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The open mike recording they used was found to have been on a police motorcycle parked at the Trade Mart and idling.  ;D

That's the overstatement of the year.  Found by whom to have been on a police motorcycle parked at the Trade Mart and idling?  Based on what evidence?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 14, 2018, 03:41:49 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Do you believe there was a first missed shot?  Where did the bullet go to?


Sure I do. It ricocheted and a chip of the sidewalk hit James Tague. He is one reason I know a shot did not go through the windshield. A gunman would have had to be in that area to produce a shot like that. Tague never said he saw anyone down there or hear a shot from there.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 14, 2018, 04:02:03 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That's the overstatement of the year.  Found by whom to have been on a police motorcycle parked at the Trade Mart and idling?  Based on what evidence?

First off do you concur with HSCA findings? The HSCA tried to say the open mike was on H. B. McLain's motorcycle, and that he was only 120 ft behind the limo. That is not true. "Richard E. Sprague, an expert on photographic evidence of the assassination and a consultant to the HSCA, noted that the amateur film the HSCA relied on showed that there were no motorcycles between those riding alongside the rear of the presidential limousine and H.B. McLain's motorcycle, and that other films[21][not in citation given] showed McLain's motorcycle was actually 250 feet behind the presidential limousine when the first shot was fired, not 120 to 138 feet. No motorcycle was anywhere near the target area.[22]"

Do you cuncur with the HSCA?
"After the FBI disputed the validity of the acoustic evidence, the Justice Department paid for a review by the National Academy of Sciences, an organization operating with a Title 36 congressional charter.

On May 14, 1982, the panel of experts chaired by Harvard University's Norman Ramsey, released the results of their study.[26] The NAS panel unanimously concluded that:

The acoustic analyses do not demonstrate that there was a grassy knoll shot, and in particular there is no acoustic basis for the claim of 95% probability of such a shot.
The acoustic impulses attributed to gunshots were recorded about one minute after the President had been shot and the motorcade had been instructed to go to the hospital.
Therefore, reliable acoustic data do not support a conclusion that there was a second gunman."[27]
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 14, 2018, 04:25:37 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
First off do you concur with HSCA findings? The HSCA tried to say the open mike was on H. B. McLain's motorcycle, and that he was only 120 ft behind the limo. That is not true. "Richard E. Sprague, an expert on photographic evidence of the assassination and a consultant to the HSCA, noted that the amateur film the HSCA relied on showed that there were no motorcycles between those riding alongside the rear of the presidential limousine and H.B. McLain's motorcycle, and that other films[21][not in citation given] showed McLain's motorcycle was actually 250 feet behind the presidential limousine when the first shot was fired, not 120 to 138 feet. No motorcycle was anywhere near the target area.[22]"

Do you cuncur with the HSCA?
"After the FBI disputed the validity of the acoustic evidence, the Justice Department paid for a review by the National Academy of Sciences, an organization operating with a Title 36 congressional charter.

On May 14, 1982, the panel of experts chaired by Harvard University's Norman Ramsey, released the results of their study.[26] The NAS panel unanimously concluded that:

The acoustic analyses do not demonstrate that there was a grassy knoll shot, and in particular there is no acoustic basis for the claim of 95% probability of such a shot.
The acoustic impulses attributed to gunshots were recorded about one minute after the President had been shot and the motorcade had been instructed to go to the hospital.
Therefore, reliable acoustic data do not support a conclusion that there was a second gunman."[27]


You really are not very good at answering simple questions, are you now?

Nothing you have written comes even close to being an answer to John's question.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 14, 2018, 05:29:52 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Sure I do. It ricocheted and a chip of the sidewalk hit James Tague. He is one reason I know a shot did not go through the windshield. A gunman would have had to be in that area to produce a shot like that. Tague never said he saw anyone down there or hear a shot from there.

Nope. It was the first shot that missed. Tague said that he was hit on either the the second or third shot.

As for where the missed shot went, how could anyone be expected to know that? It missed the limo completely.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 15, 2018, 05:15:18 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Sure I do. It ricocheted and a chip of the sidewalk hit James Tague. He is one reason I know a shot did not go through the windshield. A gunman would have had to be in that area to produce a shot like that. Tague never said he saw anyone down there or hear a shot from there.

Where did the bullet go to?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 15, 2018, 05:19:43 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
First off do you concur with HSCA findings? The HSCA tried to say the open mike was on H. B. McLain's motorcycle, and that he was only 120 ft behind the limo. That is not true. "Richard E. Sprague, an expert on photographic evidence of the assassination and a consultant to the HSCA, noted that the amateur film the HSCA relied on showed that there were no motorcycles between those riding alongside the rear of the presidential limousine and H.B. McLain's motorcycle, and that other films[21][not in citation given] showed McLain's motorcycle was actually 250 feet behind the presidential limousine when the first shot was fired, not 120 to 138 feet. No motorcycle was anywhere near the target area.[22]"

Do you cuncur with the HSCA?
"After the FBI disputed the validity of the acoustic evidence, the Justice Department paid for a review by the National Academy of Sciences, an organization operating with a Title 36 congressional charter.

On May 14, 1982, the panel of experts chaired by Harvard University's Norman Ramsey, released the results of their study.[26] The NAS panel unanimously concluded that:

The acoustic analyses do not demonstrate that there was a grassy knoll shot, and in particular there is no acoustic basis for the claim of 95% probability of such a shot.
The acoustic impulses attributed to gunshots were recorded about one minute after the President had been shot and the motorcade had been instructed to go to the hospital.
Therefore, reliable acoustic data do not support a conclusion that there was a second gunman."[27]


I asked you about your claim that the stuck mic was "found to have been on a police motorcycle parked at the Trade Mart and idling".  What does any of this have to do with my question?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 15, 2018, 05:22:39 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Nope. It was the first shot that missed. Tague said that he was hit on either the the second or third shot.

As for where the missed shot went, how could anyone be expected to know that? It missed the limo completely.

How do you know there was a first missed shot then?

And if nobody could be expected to know where a hypothesized first missed shot went, then why are people expected to know where a hypothesized frontal shot to the president's throat went?
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Lee Wotton on March 16, 2018, 07:23:27 PM
I really wouldn't give Wesley any time at all on this post.  He fails to read previous posts properly, never answers simple questions and as Gary rightly says brings nothing to the table.  He has visited Dealey Plaza and hunted with a rifle though! hahahaha.

I think there is plenty of evidence in earlier posts that point to more than 3 shots and more than one shooting location.  Either one of those points spells conspiracy; as does the preposterous magic bullet.

They weren't banking on Tague that day and it was too late once the planted bullet was found at Parkland.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 26, 2018, 04:39:49 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How do you know there was a first missed shot then?

From viewing the Zapruder film and from John Connally's testimony.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 26, 2018, 05:17:37 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
From viewing the Zapruder film and from John Connally's testimony.

That would be cherry-picking.  Andrew concludes that there were only two shots using the same methodology.
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Bill Brown on April 05, 2018, 10:27:27 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
First off do you concur with HSCA findings? The HSCA tried to say the open mike was on H. B. McLain's motorcycle, and that he was only 120 ft behind the limo. That is not true. "Richard E. Sprague, an expert on photographic evidence of the assassination and a consultant to the HSCA, noted that the amateur film the HSCA relied on showed that there were no motorcycles between those riding alongside the rear of the presidential limousine and H.B. McLain's motorcycle, and that other films[21][not in citation given] showed McLain's motorcycle was actually 250 feet behind the presidential limousine when the first shot was fired, not 120 to 138 feet. No motorcycle was anywhere near the target area.[22]"

Do you cuncur with the HSCA?
"After the FBI disputed the validity of the acoustic evidence, the Justice Department paid for a review by the National Academy of Sciences, an organization operating with a Title 36 congressional charter.

On May 14, 1982, the panel of experts chaired by Harvard University's Norman Ramsey, released the results of their study.[26] The NAS panel unanimously concluded that:

The acoustic analyses do not demonstrate that there was a grassy knoll shot, and in particular there is no acoustic basis for the claim of 95% probability of such a shot.
The acoustic impulses attributed to gunshots were recorded about one minute after the President had been shot and the motorcade had been instructed to go to the hospital.
Therefore, reliable acoustic data do not support a conclusion that there was a second gunman."[27]


You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You really are not very good at answering simple questions, are you now?

Nothing you have written comes even close to being an answer to John's question.


(https://i.imgur.com/89WBPht.jpg)
Title: Re: Forget Oswald and Who....The Number of Bullets & Shooters Proves Conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Freeman on April 22, 2018, 04:12:09 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

However ... Jesse Curry did not believe there was a conspiracy to kill JFK while he was Chief of Police in Dallas (until 1966). 

How could anyone possibly know what Curry believed?
Reading his testimony before the WC might provide some insight...
 
The Recollections of Jesse Curry
 

Given months to prepare for his testimony, Chief Curry did rather poorly...

 
Quote
    Mr. RANKIN....When did you learn of the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald?
    Mr. CURRY - While I was out at Parkland Hospital.
    Mr. RANKIN - Do you know about what time that was, the day?
    Mr. CURRY - It was on the 22d and the best I recall it was around 1 o'clock or maybe a little after 1 o'clock.
[The report of the Tippit shooting didn't get out until when exactly?? Horrible preparation there..Oswald wasn't even known about until much later after he was arrested @2:00 PM]
    Mr. RANKIN - How did that come to your attention?
    Mr. CURRY - Some of my officers came to me and said they had arrested a suspect. in the shooting of our Officer Tippit.
    Mr. RANKIN - What else did they say?
    Mr. CURRY - They also told me a little later, I believe, that he was a suspect also in the assassination of the President.
    Mr. RANKIN - What did you do then?
    Mr. CURRY - I didn't do anything at the time.

The President had only just been pronounced dead at 1:00

 
Quote
    Mr. CURRY - And I returned to the city hall.
    Mr. DULLES - Did I understand correctly, how long were you at Love Field after the plane of the President left?
    Mr. CURRY - As I recall it was approximately an hour.
    Mr. DULLES - That is what I thought.  [why did Dulles say that?]
    Mr. CURRY - We waited there until the casket bearing the President, and then the cars bearing Mrs. Kennedy arrived, and it was, I would judge an hour perhaps.
    Mr. RANKIN - Then what did you do?
    Mr. CURRY - I returned to my office at city hall.
    Mr. RANKIN - Did you do anything about Lee Harvey Oswald at that time?
    Mr. CURRY - No


Quote

    Mr. CURRY - No. As I went into the city hall it was overrun with the news media.
    Mr. RANKIN - What did you do about that?
    Mr. CURRY - I didn't do anything.

Quote
    Mr. RANKIN - Did anyone of the police department give them permission [TV news cameras etc] to do this?
    Mr. CURRY - I noticed--well, I don't know who gave them permission because I wasn't there. When I returned they were up there.
    Mr. RANKIN - Did you inquire about whether permission had been given?
    Mr. CURRY - No; I didn't.



   
Quote
Mr. RANKIN - Did you have anything to do with the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald?
    Mr. CURRY - No, sir; I did not. I was in the office once or twice while he was being interrogated but I never asked him any question myself.
    Mr. RANKIN - Do you know who did?
    Mr. CURRY - Captain Fritz principally interrogated him, I believe.
    Mr. RANKIN - Was that his responsibility?
    Mr. CURRY - Yes; it was. There were several people in the office. It seems to me we were violating every principle of interrogation, the method by which we had to interrogate.
    Mr. RANKIN - Will you explain to the Commission what you mean by that?
    Mr. CURRY - Ordinarily an interrogator in interrogating a suspect will have him in a quiet room alone or perhaps with one person there.
    Mr. RANKIN - Is that your regular practice?
    Mr. CURRY - That is the regular practice.
    Mr. RANKIN - Tell us how this was done?
    Mr. CURRY - This we had representatives from the Secret Service, we had representatives from the FBI, we had representatives from the Ranger Force, and they were--and then one or two detectives from the homicide bureau. This was, well, it was just against all principles of good interrogation practice.
    Mr. RANKIN - By representatives can you tell us how many were from each of these agencies that you describe?
    Mr. CURRY - I can't be sure. I recall I believe two from the FBI, one or two, Inspector Kelley was there from Secret Service, and I believe another one of his men was there. There was one, I recall seeing one man from the Rangers. I don't recall who he was. I just remember now that there was one. Captain Fritz, and one or two of his detectives--this was in a small office.
    Mr. RANKIN - Did you do anything about this when you found out there were so many, did you give any instructions about it?
    Mr. CURRY - No; I didn't.

  So from what can be gathered here is that Chief of Dallas Police Jesse Edward Curry on Nov 22, 1963..just basically stood around and did nothing. He was the only prime official that did not take part in interrogating his own suspect. Didn't even know who was in his own office.. He didn't even order a tape recording so that he could examine an interview with a guy he accused of killing the President of the United States !!! Said he was at Parkland when he "first heard about Oswald " Completely impossible...and utterly unbelievable.