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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Paul May on December 05, 2019, 07:44:47 PM

Title: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Paul May on December 05, 2019, 07:44:47 PM
Kennedy Assassination Bullets Preserved in Digital Form

nist.gov | December 5, 2019 06:00 AM

In the palm of his hand, Thomas Brian Renegar held two small metal objects that had changed the course of history. Twisted pieces of copper and lead, they were fragments of the bullet that ended the life of President John F. Kennedy on Nov. 22, 1963.

A physical scientist at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), Renegar was not yet born when the nation was robbed of the young, charismatic leader who fought for civil rights and set America on a course for the Moon. But he felt the weight of history. He picked up one of the fragments using rubber-tipped forceps and, with the care of a jeweler setting a stone, placed it into a housing beneath the lens of a 3D surface scanning microscope.

These artifacts are usually held at the National Archives. They were transported to NIST so that Renegar and the rest of the NIST ballistics team could scan them and produce digital replicas that are true down to the microscopic details.

Viewing the digital replicas on his computer screen, Renegar said, “It’s like they’re right there in front of you.” The National Archives plans to make the data available in its online catalog in early 2020.

Why do this, so many years after President Kennedy’s tragic death? The mission of the National Archives is to provide the public with access to artifacts such as these, and it receives many requests for access to them. This project will allow the Archives to release the 3D replicas to the public while the originals remain safely preserved in their temperature and humidity-controlled vault.

“The virtual artifacts are as close as possible to the real things,” said Martha Murphy, deputy director of government information services at the National Archives. “In some respects, they are better than the originals in that you can zoom in to see microscopic details,” she said.

In addition to the two fragments from the bullet that fatally wounded the president, the digital collection includes another bullet that struck both the president and Texas Gov. John Connally. That one is known as the “stretcher bullet” because it was found lying near Connally at the hospital. The collection also includes two bullets produced by test firing the assassin’s rifle, and a bullet that was recovered following an earlier, failed assassination attempt on Army Maj. Gen. Edwin Walker that was thought to involve the same firearm.

In the lab, the NIST ballistics team used a technique called focus variation microscopy to image the artifacts. At each location along the object’s surface, the microscope created a series of images at different focal distances. By analyzing which parts of those images were in focus, the microscope measured the distance to the object’s surface features. As the lens moved across the object, it built a 3D surface map of the microscopic landscape beneath it, like a satellite mapping a mountain range.

Renegar and NIST physical scientist Mike Stocker spent countless hours rotating the metal fragments beneath the lens of the microscope to image every facet, then stitching the image segments together where they overlapped. “It was like solving a supercomplicated 3D puzzle,” Renegar said. “I’ve stared at them so much I can draw them from memory.”

If you held one of the original fragments in the palm of your hand, you would see that the metal is warped and twisted into a complex shape. But magnified on the computer screen, it is a world unto itself: a highly complex and undulating terrain that bends, dips and doubles back. Zoom in, and you can see rifling grooves left by the barrel of the gun. Zoom in closer, and you can see the microtopography — ridges and scratches that would be far too fine to feel with your fingertip.

The focus variation scans had a horizontal resolution of 4 micrometers, about one-tenth the width of a human hair, and a vertical resolution of 0.5 micrometers, or eight times better. This allowed the scans to record the depth of minute scratches in the metallic surface of the artifacts. Other members of the team, including mechanical engineers Xiaoyu Alan Zheng and Johannes Soons, used a technique called confocal microscopy to image selected regions of the artifacts at higher resolution. Although this was an unusual project for the NIST ballistics team, its members do spend a lot of time imaging bullet surfaces. Their regular work has them researching advanced forensic techniques for identifying firearms used in crimes.

Clockwise from top left: the stretcher bullet (CE 399 FBI C1); a fragment of the bullet that fatally wounded the president (CE 567 FBI C2); a second fragment of that bullet (CE 569 FBI C3); and a different perspective of that same fragment. The exhibit numbers were assigned by the Warren Commission (beginning with “CE”) and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

For more than a century, forensic examiners have matched pairs of bullets by viewing them under a split-screen comparison microscope. If the striations on a pair of bullets — or on microscopic photographs of those bullets — line up, examiners might consider them a match.

The NIST ballistics team is developing methods for comparing bullets using 3D surface maps, which can provide greater detail and accuracy than comparing two-dimensional images. It’s also developing methods so that, instead of just saying whether or not two bullets appear to match, forensic examiners will be able to statistically quantify their degree of similarity. This research is part of a larger effort by NIST to strengthen forensic science so that judges, juries and investigators have reliable, science-based information when deciding guilt or innocence.

Robert Thompson, the NIST forensic firearms expert who oversaw the project, said that the bullet fragments from the Kennedy assassination were bent and distorted in ways that made them difficult to image. “The techniques we developed to image those artifacts will be useful in criminal cases that involve similarly challenging evidence.”

The team did not conduct any forensic analysis of the bullets from the Kennedy assassination. This project was strictly a matter of historic preservation. However, once the National Archives makes the data available to the public, anyone who is interested in analyzing those bullets will be able to do so without risking damage to the originals.

Though Renegar is too young to remember the event that indelibly marked the memories of an earlier generation, he feels deeply connected to that day in history. Speaking for the entire team, he said, “It was an honor to put our expertise toward such an important project.”

Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 05, 2019, 09:38:14 PM
Like they actually know that CE 567 and CE 569 are “fragments of the bullet that ended the life of President John F. Kennedy”, or that CE 399 “struck both the president and Texas Gov. John Connally”.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Paul May on December 05, 2019, 09:43:49 PM
Like they actually know that CE 567 and CE 569 are “fragments of the bullet that ended the life of President John F. Kennedy”, or that CE 399 “struck both the president and Texas Gov. John Connally”.

Same battle you continue fighting yet history, after 56 years remains the same. And always will.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 06, 2019, 12:56:42 AM
Sorry, Paul. Claims with no evidence to support them are not “history”.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Martin Weidmann on December 07, 2019, 12:30:50 AM
Sorry, Paul. Claims with no evidence to support them are not “history”.

What Paul will never understand or accept is that history books do not contain an objective record of what exactly happened in the past.

Instead, they very often give a skewed version of an event desired by those who controlled the narrative.

Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 07, 2019, 01:26:37 AM
 
Quote
On Friday 21 January 2000, the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) released the report of its reexamination of the tip (nose) of a military-style bullet found on the front seat of the presidential limousine shortly after JFK was assassinated. Until now, this fragment has nearly universally been considered as part of the bullet that hit JFK's head and disintegrated. About five years ago, however, a John T. Orr, Chief of the Justice Department's Antitrust Division's office in Atlanta and a conspiracy theorist about the JFK assassination, sent an "extensive analysis" of some parts of the evidence to the Attorney General, essentially proposing that the government had twice gotten it all wrong, and that JFK had been hit by two different types of ammunition from two different rifles. Shot #1 had indeed been a full-metal-jacketed bullet that passed through Kennedy's body. But shot #3, to JFK's head, had used a soft-nosed bullet that had presumably disintegrated. Orr proposed that the two large fragments (the tip and base of one or two FMJ bullets) had come from the first shot (through JFK's body) rather than from the head shot. To test this idea, he proposed, among other things, that minute fibers present on the tip fragment (CE 567) should be tested. If they were consistent with Kennedy's shirt collar, tie, or tie liner, that would prove that the bullet had passed through his body rather than through his head.
    The Justice Department bought the idea at least partly, and requested that the FBI test the fibers and some human debris in a limited way to see what it could find. If the results were sufficiently promising, they would consider further tests. (See the DOJ's letter of request to the FBI, which explains Orr's ideas.) The report of 21 January gives those first results.
The coming tests were first announced on 14 August 1998 and were described in the following Associated Press (AP) article by Joseph Schuman:
"FBI to Test JFK Bullet Fragments," by Joseph Schuman, AP 14 August 1998 (http://jfklancer.com/fragtest.html) A very brief intermediate report was issued by NARA, who was overseeing the tests, on 19 February 1999:
"Lab Test on JFK Evidence," U.S. Newswire, 19 February 1999 (http://jfklancer.com/fragtest.html)
Two months later, Joseph Backes described these tests and their background in more detail in an article released by JFK Lancer:
Joseph Backes's "A New Look At CE 567," 20 April 1999 (http://jfklancer.com/fragtest.html) Joseph Backes's "Mystery Conclusions," 19 May 1999 (http://jfklancer.com/fragtest.html) NARA's final report was issued on 21 January 2000. It adds little to the previous reports, and basically states that the fibrous material was cellulose that did not come from the clothing of either Kennedy or Connally, and that the human tissue was too and too damaged old to try to trace to either man. These results did not yield any support for Orr's radical new conspiracy theory and, in fact, were consistent with the conventional view of the bullets, although weakly.

More here.... http://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/Issues_and_evidence/CE_567/CE_567.html
However I feel that the Warren defenders rarely look at my links. The FBI [Hoover] reported that there was an insignificant difference in the fragment analysis with respect to matching them to "Oswald's" ammo [or whatever they did] Point is--- Any difference at all whatsoever in the metallurgy testing rules out the conclusions absolutely. 
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 07, 2019, 03:26:35 AM
Quote
In addition to the two fragments from the bullet that fatally wounded the president, the digital collection includes another bullet that struck both the president and Texas Gov. John Connally. That one is known as the “stretcher bullet” because it was found lying near Connally at the hospital.
Wrong. It is known as ''The Magic Bullet'' AKA "Bastard Bullet" and it wasn't "found" anywhere near Gov Connally even according to the Warren Report itself ::)
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 07, 2019, 04:27:24 AM
 
The FBI [Hoover] reported that there was an insignificant difference in the fragment analysis with respect to matching them to "Oswald's" ammo [or whatever they did] Point is--- Any difference at all whatsoever in the metallurgy testing rules out the conclusions absolutely.

The FBI expert who actually examined the fragments said otherwise. And he did so under oath.

Mr. EISENBERG - Did you examine this? Is this a bullet fragment, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. This consists of a piece of the jacket portion of a bullet from the nose area and a piece of the lead core from under the jacket.
Mr. EISENBERG - How were you able to conclude it is part of the nose area?
Mr. FRAZIER - Because of the rifling marks which extend part way up the side, and then have the characteristic leading edge impressions and no longer continue along the bullet, and by the fact that the bullet has a rounded contour to it which has not been mutilated.
Mr. EISENBERG - Did you examine this bullet to determine whether it had been fired from Exhibit 139 to the exclusion of all other weapons?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG - What was your conclusion?
Mr. FRAZIER - This bullet fragment was fired in this rifle, 139.

....
Mr. EISENBERG - Can we go back a second? I don't think I asked for admission of the bullet fragment which--Mr. Frazier identified. May I have that admitted?
Mr. McCLOY - It may be admitted.
Mr. EISENBERG - The bullet fragment will be 567 and the photograph just identified by Mr. Frazier will be 568.
........
Mr. FRAZIER - This bullet fragment, Exhibit 569, was fired from this particular rifle, 139.
Mr. EISENBERG - Again to the exclusion of all other rifles?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.



http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 07, 2019, 04:29:43 AM
Wrong. It is known as ''The Magic Bullet'' AKA "Bastard Bullet" and it wasn't "found" anywhere near Gov Connally even according to the Warren Report itself ::)

It's only known as "The Magic Bullet" by conspiracy types. It was found on Connally's stretcher. The Warren Report did not conclude otherwise.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Martin Weidmann on December 07, 2019, 04:41:44 AM
It's only known as "The Magic Bullet" by conspiracy types. It was found on Connally's stretcher. The Warren Report did not conclude otherwise.

It was found on Connally's stretcher.

Not even that is certain. Tomlinson could not say for sure which stretcher he found it on.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 07, 2019, 04:52:54 AM
It was found on Connally's stretcher.

Not even that is certain. Tomlinson could not say for sure which stretcher he found it on.

As I said earlier, the earliest statements made by those who handled the stretcher confirm that it was found on Connally's stretcher.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Martin Weidmann on December 07, 2019, 05:23:10 AM
As I said earlier, the earliest statements made by those who handled the stretcher confirm that it was found on Connally's stretcher.

Why are you being so vague? Please, be more specific. Who exactly confirmed that the bullet was found on Connally's stretcher?

How did the people "who handled the stretcher" even know on which stretcher Tomlinson found the bullet?



Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 07, 2019, 06:23:22 AM
Why are you being so vague? Please, be more specific. Who exactly confirmed that the bullet was found on Connally's stretcher?

How did the people "who handled the stretcher" even know on which stretcher Tomlinson found the bullet?

Mr. SPECTER - You helped them take Governor Connally and put him on the operating table?
Mr. JIMISON - I did.
Mr. SPECTER - And what then was done with the stretcher that he was on?
Mr. JIMISON - Well, the stretcher at that time was moved back from the table, of course, because they had to make room for the doctors to get up close to the table, which was back just always and when I got free---whether it was Miss Wester or Mrs. Ross there---they pushed it back a little further, but they didn't get quite to the elevator with it; I came along and pushed it onto the elevator myself and loaded it on and pushed the door closed.
.........
Mr. SPECTER - What did you do with the stretcher then, you said?
Mr. JIMISON - Pushed it on the rear elevator, which goes downstairs.
Mr. SPECTER - Is there any other elevator which goes downstairs to the emergency area?
Mr. JIMISON - Not close in the emergency area----that's the only one.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/jimison.htm

Nurse Jane Wester said that she had rolled up a bloody sheet and left it on the stretcher and then placed some medical tools on the stretcher and asked Jimison to take the stretcher to the elevator.

In Darrell Tomlinson's earliest statement, made Dec 4,1963, he said that the bullet was on the stretcher that he had taken off of the elevator. He recalled the balled up bloody sheets, a couple of bandages, a glove, and the medical tools being on the stretcher.

https://i.imgur.com/rk20BhI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dh1nUMK.jpg

The Secret Service Agent who received the bullet from O.P. Wright recorded that the stretcher that the bullet had been found on contained medical tools and rubber gloves.

https://i.imgur.com/CIn10To.png

Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 07, 2019, 06:42:10 AM
That’s what you call a “confirmation” that it was Connally’s stretcher?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 07, 2019, 06:51:10 AM
That’s what you call a “confirmation” that it was Connally’s stretcher?

Ask someone to explain it to you.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Martin Weidmann on December 07, 2019, 06:54:07 AM
Mr. SPECTER - You helped them take Governor Connally and put him on the operating table?
Mr. JIMISON - I did.
Mr. SPECTER - And what then was done with the stretcher that he was on?
Mr. JIMISON - Well, the stretcher at that time was moved back from the table, of course, because they had to make room for the doctors to get up close to the table, which was back just always and when I got free---whether it was Miss Wester or Mrs. Ross there---they pushed it back a little further, but they didn't get quite to the elevator with it; I came along and pushed it onto the elevator myself and loaded it on and pushed the door closed.
.........
Mr. SPECTER - What did you do with the stretcher then, you said?
Mr. JIMISON - Pushed it on the rear elevator, which goes downstairs.
Mr. SPECTER - Is there any other elevator which goes downstairs to the emergency area?
Mr. JIMISON - Not close in the emergency area----that's the only one.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/jimison.htm


Which only tells us that the stretcher used for Connally was put on an elevator by Jimison.

Quote

Nurse Jane Wester said that she had rolled up a bloody sheet and left it on the stretcher and then placed some medical tools on the stretcher and asked Jimison to take the stretcher to the elevator.


Well, let's see...

Miss WESTER - I took the stretcher and rolled it to the center area of the operating room suite--rolled the sheets up on the stretcher into a small bundle.
Mr. SPECTER - Was there one sheet or more than one sheet?
Miss WESTER - I believe there were two sheets and I rolled one inside the other up into a small bundle.

<>

Mr. SPECTER - What else, if anything, was on that stretcher?
Miss WESTER - There were several glassine packets, small packets of hypodermic needles---well, packed in and sterilized in. There were several others---some alcohol sponges and a roll of 1-inch tape. Those things, I definitely know, were on the cart, and the sheets, of course.

<>

Mr. SPECTER - Do you recall whether there were any tools on one end of the stretcher?
Miss WESTER - I know I set something down on the cart, I think it was a curved hemostat---I couldn't say for sure---I'm not sure.


<>
Mr. SPECTER - Now, what did you do with the stretcher after Governor Connally was taken off of it?
Miss WESTER - I moved the stretcher back to the center area, fairly close to the clock, it Wasn't right under it, but fairly close, and an orderly, R. J. Jimison, walked up---
Mr. SPECTER - His initials are R. J.?
Miss WESTER - And he stood at the cart while I rolled the sheets up and removed the items from the cart, and from there he took the cart and proceeded to the elevator with it and the last time I saw him he was standing at the elevator with the cart waiting for him to be picked up.


So, it appears that Wester actually removed items from the stretcher before it was placed on the elevator.

Quote

In Darrell Tomlinson's earliest statement, made Dec 4,1963, he said that the bullet was on the stretcher that he had taken off of the elevator. He recalled the balled up bloody sheets, a couple of bandages, a glove, and the medical tools being on the stretcher.

https://i.imgur.com/rk20BhI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dh1nUMK.jpg


Which is in complete contradiction to what Wester said about having removed the items from the stretcher. Go figure!

Btw, just how many stretchers with bloody sheets on them do you think there normally are in such an area of a hospital?

Quote

The Secret Service Agent who received the bullet from O.P. Wright recorded that the stretcher that the bullet had been found on contained medical tools and rubber gloves.

https://i.imgur.com/CIn10To.png

The Secret Service Agent can record anything he likes. It is of no value whatsoever as he wasn't there when Tomlinson found it and thus could not possibly have known where the bullet came from unless somebody told him.

There really is and never was anybody who ever confirmed that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was found on the stretcher used for Connally, is there now?

It was nothing more than conjecture on your part, wasn't it?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 07, 2019, 04:53:38 PM
Conjecture...confirmation...same thing in the LN universe.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 07, 2019, 06:42:16 PM
The FBI expert who actually examined the fragments said otherwise. And he did so under oath.
Did you just join this forum? Several times I have acknowledged that the magic bullet-- CE 399 [Commission's name for it] was fired from the 6th floor rifle. Sometimes, I think Tim Nickerson is really a computer program.
The "finding" of CE 399 now has been moved around...from near Gov Connally to his stretcher and then NEAR his stretcher and maybe where his stretcher was. The point is that it is conjecture...all of it and that bullet could have been fired the day before and rolled out on the floor that day to be found. And for some unfathomable reason...Warren Report believers bite into this relatively undamaged projectile like a fish bites into a nice juicy worm wrapped around a hook.
 
 
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 07, 2019, 06:44:41 PM
  It was found on Connally's stretcher. The Warren Report did not conclude otherwise.
The report did not conclude it was...it assumed it was.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 07, 2019, 06:45:11 PM
Which only tells us that the stretcher used for Connally was put on an elevator by Jimison.

Correct.

Quote
Well, let's see...

Miss WESTER - I took the stretcher and rolled it to the center area of the operating room suite--rolled the sheets up on the stretcher into a small bundle.
Mr. SPECTER - Was there one sheet or more than one sheet?
Miss WESTER - I believe there were two sheets and I rolled one inside the other up into a small bundle.

<>

Mr. SPECTER - What else, if anything, was on that stretcher?
Miss WESTER - There were several glassine packets, small packets of hypodermic needles---well, packed in and sterilized in. There were several others---some alcohol sponges and a roll of 1-inch tape. Those things, I definitely know, were on the cart, and the sheets, of course.

<>

Mr. SPECTER - Do you recall whether there were any tools on one end of the stretcher?
Miss WESTER - I know I set something down on the cart, I think it was a curved hemostat---I couldn't say for sure---I'm not sure.


<>
Mr. SPECTER - Now, what did you do with the stretcher after Governor Connally was taken off of it?
Miss WESTER - I moved the stretcher back to the center area, fairly close to the clock, it Wasn't right under it, but fairly close, and an orderly, R. J. Jimison, walked up---
Mr. SPECTER - His initials are R. J.?
Miss WESTER - And he stood at the cart while I rolled the sheets up and removed the items from the cart, and from there he took the cart and proceeded to the elevator with it and the last time I saw him he was standing at the elevator with the cart waiting for him to be picked up.


So, it appears that Wester actually removed items from the stretcher before it was placed on the elevator.

Which is in complete contradiction to what Wester said about having removed the items from the stretcher. Go figure!

That's Wester's recollection made on March 20, 1964.

Quote from: Tim Nickerson on Today at 04:52:54 AM
As I said earlier, the earliest statements made by those who handled the stretcher confirm that it was found on Connally's stretcher.

(https://i.imgur.com/rk20BhI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dh1nUMK.jpg)

Quote
Btw, just how many stretchers with bloody sheets on them do you think there normally are in such an area of a hospital?

Only one stretcher with bloody sheets on it was placed on that elevator from the time that Connally went up on the elevator until after 3:30 Pm.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 07, 2019, 06:56:42 PM
Quote
Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Tomlinson, are you sure that it was stretcher "A" that you took out of the elevator and not stretcher "B"?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, really, I can't be positive, just to be perfectly honest about it, I can't be positive, because I really didn't pay that much attention to it. The stretcher was on the elevator and I pushed it off of there and I believe we made one or two calls up before I straightened out the stretcher up against the wall. ~~~~~~~~~
Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell the Secret Service man about which stretcher you took off of the elevator?
Mr. TOMLINSON. I told him that I was not sure, and I am not--I'm not sure of it, but as I said, I would be going against the oath which I took a while ago, because I am definitely not sure.
This is the kind of cetainty that the Warren Report is based on ::)
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 07, 2019, 06:57:28 PM
Did you just join this forum? Several times I have acknowledged that the magic bullet-- CE 399 [Commission's name for it] was fired from the 6th floor rifle. Sometimes, I think Tim Nickerson is really a computer program.
The "finding" of CE 399 now has been moved around...from near Gov Connally to his stretcher and then NEAR his stretcher and maybe where his stretcher was. The point is that it is conjecture...all of it and that bullet could have been fired the day before and rolled out on the floor that day to be found. And for some unfathomable reason...Warren Report believers bite into this relatively undamaged projectile like a fish bites into a nice juicy worm wrapped around a hook.

I apologize for not realizing that you were referring to CE 399. When I read "fragments" I automatically assumed the two large fragments found in the limo. The finding of CE 399 was established very early on. Confusion about it arose months later. That's why earliest statements are usually the most reliable. There is no hard evidence of any kind that would cause me to doubt the earliest statements made by Tomlinson and Jane Wester.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 07, 2019, 07:03:12 PM
This is the kind of cetainty that the Warren Report is based on ::)

Not really. We have the earlier statement by Tomlinson to go by. Try using some common sense as well. You acknowledge that CE 399 was fired at the limo that day from the sixth floor rifle. Meaning that it had to have struck Connally after passing through JFK. What would it be doing on any other stretcher than the one that Connally had been on?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 07, 2019, 08:25:00 PM
Not really. We have the earlier statement by Tomlinson to go by. Try using some common sense as well. You acknowledge that CE 399 was fired at the limo that day from the sixth floor rifle. Meaning that it had to have struck Connally after passing through JFK. What would it be doing on any other stretcher than the one that Connally had been on?
I did not "acknowledge that CE 399 was fired that day" get your eyes checked.
People with 'common sense' have long realized that it was vital to the authorities case to have "evidence" linking the 6th floor rifle to the shooting. They would have done it some other way...but CE 399 provided a certain 'legitimacy' to things....an entirely whole bullet that could be easily traced to the rifle was just perfect.
CE 399 was probably fired into a mattress [perhaps]--- earlier that week.
Quote
We have the earlier statement by Tomlinson to go by.
You might have found an FBI report but where did Tomlinson sign that statement officially under oath?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Organ on December 07, 2019, 08:48:35 PM
And for some unfathomable reason...Warren Report believers bite into this relatively undamaged projectile like a fish bites into a nice juicy worm wrapped around a hook.
The Wharf-Fin Ray-Port said Ol'-Salt was the sole grunion.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 07, 2019, 08:56:31 PM
Assuming for the sake of argument that Warner's second hand recording of their statements was accurate, where does it say that it was the same stretcher if Tomlinson pulled it off the elevator and it was unattended for an hour?  Also, he doesn't quote Wester saying anything about bandage pads and a glove, or Tomlinson saying anything about pieces of paper.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Martin Weidmann on December 07, 2019, 09:52:56 PM
Correct.

That's Wester's recollection made on March 20, 1964.

Quote from: Tim Nickerson on Today at 04:52:54 AM
As I said earlier, the earliest statements made by those who handled the stretcher confirm that it was found on Connally's stretcher.

(https://i.imgur.com/rk20BhI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dh1nUMK.jpg)

Only one stretcher with bloody sheets on it was placed on that elevator from the time that Connally went up on the elevator until after 3:30 Pm.

What Wester told the Secret Service on 4 - 5 December 1963 does not differ from what she said in her testimony to the WC except that under oath she added she had removed the items from the stretcher before passing it to Jimison.

Nothing you have presented so far justifies the conclusion that Tomlinson found the bullet on the stretcher used for Connally.

It also does not support your claim that "the earliest statements made by those who handled the stretcher confirm that it was found on Connally's stretcher" as nobody in any statement confirmed anything of the kind. It's all conjecture on your part.

Btw, any idea what happened to the bullet nurse Hall describes at 2.07 in this video?

Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Paul May on December 08, 2019, 08:38:45 PM
What Paul will never understand or accept is that history books do not contain an objective record of what exactly happened in the past.

Instead, they very often give a skewed version of an event desired by those who controlled the narrative.

I understand perfectly Martin. In the world you inhabit everything is a conspiracy. Everything. Paranoia is mental illness.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jack Trojan on December 08, 2019, 09:21:19 PM
Not really. We have the earlier statement by Tomlinson to go by. Try using some common sense as well. You acknowledge that CE 399 was fired at the limo that day from the sixth floor rifle. Meaning that it had to have struck Connally after passing through JFK. What would it be doing on any other stretcher than the one that Connally had been on?

Are you confused that the MB was not found on Connally's stretcher?

Why doesn't the Magic Bullet bother you, is the question?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 08, 2019, 09:38:32 PM
Are you confused that the MB was not found on Connally's stretcher?

It's you who is confused. CE 399 was found on Connally's stretcher.

Quote
  • Entered President Kennedy’s upper back

Close but no cigar. It entered at the base of his neck.

Quote
  • Passed through his upper back and lower neck

Passed through his neck, not his back.

Quote
  • Came out of his throat just below the Adam’s apple
  • Entered Governor John Connally’s back close to his right armpit
  • Passed through his body, smashing several inches of one rib
  • Came out of the right side of his chest
  • Passed through his right wrist, breaking the radius bone
  • Embedded itself in his left thigh

 Thumb1:

Quote
  • And finally, while Connally was laying on a stretcher in Parkland Hospital, the bullet worked its way out of his thigh and fell onto another unrelated stretcher outside the OR, where it was discovered by a hospital employee.

Nope. It fell out on the stretcher that he was on. The same stretcher that Tomlinson pulled off of the elevator.

Quote
Why doesn't the Magic Bullet bother you, is the question?

There was no magic bullet. There was a single bullet. There was nothing magical about it.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jack Trojan on December 08, 2019, 10:02:42 PM
It's you who is confused. CE 399 was found on Connally's stretcher.

Close but no cigar. It entered at the base of his neck.

Passed through his neck, not his back.

 Thumb1:

Nope. It fell out on the stretcher that he was on. The same stretcher that Tomlinson pulled off of the elevator.

There was no magic bullet. There was a single bullet. There was nothing magical about it.

WRONG! Better Google every single point you failed to make. I can't be held responsible for your plethora of gaffes.  ;D
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Paul May on December 08, 2019, 10:22:23 PM
This thread was put up for informational purposes, nothing more. Yet, once again, certain people need to drag it through the minutiae of conspiracy crap as they have for 56 + years. Astonishingly ignorant.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 08, 2019, 10:31:43 PM
WRONG! Better Google every single point you failed to make. I can't be held responsible for your plethora of gaffes.  ;D

Google? Nah. DuckDuckGo. I never made any gaffes. Not recently anyway.  :)
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 08, 2019, 10:48:27 PM
  CE 399 was found on Connally's stretcher.
  It entered at the base of his neck. Passed through his neck, not his back.  It fell out on the stretcher that he was on. The same stretcher that Tomlinson pulled off of the elevator.
Where have I read all this before?....Oh yeah the Warren Report. Lets call CE 399 the Miracle Bullet...because it was like no other ever--performing marvelous and incredible actions.
 (https://prodimage.images-bn.com/pimages/0812771020718_p0_v3_s550x406.jpg)
The force it used. Many wounds did it create.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 08, 2019, 10:54:09 PM
Where have I read all this before?....Oh yeah the Warren Report. Lets call CE 399 the Miracle Bullet...because it was like no other ever--performing marvelous and incredible actions.
 (https://prodimage.images-bn.com/pimages/0812771020718_p0_v3_s550x406.jpg)
The force it used. Many wounds did it create.

What was/is so miraculous about CE 399?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 08, 2019, 11:34:18 PM
What was/is so miraculous about CE 399?
What an absolutely stupid question.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 09, 2019, 03:00:45 AM
What an absolutely stupid question.

I beg to differ. You claim that the bullet would have had to have been a magic bullet, "performing marvelous and incredible actions".

What exactly do you mean? What marvelous and incredible actions did it perform?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Martin Weidmann on December 09, 2019, 03:44:32 AM
I understand perfectly Martin. In the world you inhabit everything is a conspiracy. Everything. Paranoia is mental illness.

Weak, very weak indeed.

You don't know the first thing about me, so you're only guessing. Unfortunately for you, I most certainly do not believe everything is a conspiracy. But I can understand why you have to come up with this kind of crap as the alternative would be to accept a basic true fact that you don't like.

What Paul will never understand or accept is that history books do not contain an objective record of what exactly happened in the past.

Instead, they very often give a skewed version of an event desired by those who controlled the narrative.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Martin Weidmann on December 09, 2019, 03:49:01 AM
It's you who is confused. CE 399 was found on Connally's stretcher.

Close but no cigar. It entered at the base of his neck.

Passed through his neck, not his back.

 Thumb1:

Nope. It fell out on the stretcher that he was on. The same stretcher that Tomlinson pulled off of the elevator.

There was no magic bullet. There was a single bullet. There was nothing magical about it.

It's you who is confused. CE 399 was found on Connally's stretcher.

Nope. It fell out on the stretcher that he was on. The same stretcher that Tomlinson pulled off of the elevator.


I see you are still in propaganda mode.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Martin Weidmann on December 09, 2019, 03:51:29 AM
What was/is so miraculous about CE 399?

The biggest miracle is perhaps that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was never actually found by Tomlinson in Parkland Hospital.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 09, 2019, 04:10:53 AM
I understand perfectly Martin. In the world you inhabit everything is a conspiracy. Everything. Paranoia is mental illness.

So is delusional thinking about what constitutes “history”.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 09, 2019, 04:12:53 AM
It's you who is confused. CE 399 was found on Connally's stretcher.

Close but no cigar. It entered at the base of his neck.

Passed through his neck, not his back.

 Thumb1:

There’s no evidence that CE 399 did any of these things. ZERO.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 09, 2019, 04:14:41 AM
my
This thread was put up for informational purposes, nothing more.

Right. “Information” that contained unsubstantiated claims about the fragments in evidence. As usual.

You mean “misinformational purposes”.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 09, 2019, 06:09:15 AM
 
I beg to differ. You claim that the bullet would have had to have been a magic bullet, "performing marvelous and incredible actions". What exactly do you mean? What marvelous and incredible actions did it perform?
Actually I stated 'miraculous' bullet. You begged to differ and that's OK because I lied. CE 399 was probably fired into a folded up mattress a couple of days before the assassination and planted wherever it was found by perhaps Jack Ruby. If the bullet had done what the official story says it did..the story that you believe ...then it would have been miraculous. So Tim...stepped on your own face once more at 80 MPH :-\
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Martin Weidmann on December 09, 2019, 02:49:07 PM
  Actually I stated 'miraculous' bullet. You begged to differ and that's OK because I lied. CE 399 was probably fired into a folded up mattress a couple of days before the assassination and planted wherever it was found by perhaps Jack Ruby. If the bullet had done what the official story says it did..the story that you believe ...then it would have been miraculous. So Tim...stepped on your own face once more at 80 MPH :-\

CE 399 was probably fired into a folded up mattress a couple of days before the assassination and planted wherever it was found by perhaps Jack Ruby.

The bullet being planted makes little sense to me, as there would have been no certainty for the conspirators that it would be found to serve the purpose for which it was planted.

If the bullet now in evidence as CE399 is not the bullet Tomlinson found, a more likely scenario would IMO be the original Parkland bullet being switched with one fired by the MC rifle into cotton wool as part of a cover up. Such a scenario would actually fit with the first four persons in the chain of custody not being able to identify the bullet, with Wright, in an interview, describing a different, more pointed, bullet and the lack of any trace of human tissue or fibers on the bullet as well as the minimal damage to the bullet.

Perhaps it was just happenstance that Tomlinson found an unrelated bullet.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 09, 2019, 05:43:48 PM
The bullet being planted makes little sense to me, as there would have been no certainty for the conspirators that it would be found to serve the purpose for which it was planted.
There was a need to further implicate Oswald. The miraculously found bullet was a means to an end.
"OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE OSWALD WAS ASSASSIN" Interview with Arlen Spector--The mastermind of the SBT.
Start with page 2 and see how Spector expounds why the SBT is absolute proof that Oswald was the assassin....
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=60461#relPageId=2&tab=page
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 09, 2019, 06:57:24 PM
Did you just join this forum? Several times I have acknowledged that the magic bullet-- CE 399 [Commission's name for it] was fired from the 6th floor rifle. Sometimes, I think Tim Nickerson is really a computer program.
The "finding" of CE 399 now has been moved around...from near Gov Connally to his stretcher and then NEAR his stretcher and maybe where his stretcher was. The point is that it is conjecture...all of it and that bullet could have been fired the day before and rolled out on the floor that day to be found. And for some unfathomable reason...Warren Report believers bite into this relatively undamaged projectile like a fish bites into a nice juicy worm wrapped around a hook.

Several times I have acknowledged that the magic bullet-- CE 399 [Commission's name for it] was fired from the 6th floor rifle.

Please explain how you KNOW that ...A) The magic bullet was fired from the sixth floor ?....and B) "the sixth floor rifle" ?  ( I'm assuming you're referring to the Mannlicher Carcano that was found well hidden beneath boxes of books on the sixth floor)

1)If the bullet was in fact fired from CE 139..... How do you know WHEN it was fired from that carcano?   

2) Please explain how witnesses who actually saw the rifle said the rifle that they saw on in the hands of a man clad in Khaki ....clearly said the rifle was a HIGH POWERED ( ie; Hunting rifle) ...and yet you claim the rifle was a MILITARY rifle with a Mannlicher ( full wooden ) stock.   ???



Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Organ on December 09, 2019, 07:30:27 PM
Several times I have acknowledged that the magic bullet-- CE 399 [Commission's name for it] was fired from the 6th floor rifle.

Please explain how you KNOW that ...A) The magic bullet was fired from the sixth floor ?....and B) "the sixth floor rifle" ?  ( I'm assuming you're referring to the Mannlicher Carcano that was found well hidden beneath boxes of books on the sixth floor)

1)If the bullet was in fact fired from CE 139..... How do you know WHEN it was fired from that carcano?   

2) Please explain how witnesses who actually saw the rifle said the rifle that they saw on in the hands of a man clad in Khaki ....clearly said the rifle was a HIGH POWERED ( ie; Hunting rifle) ...and yet you claim the rifle was a MILITARY rifle with a Mannlicher ( full wooden ) stock.   ???

You do know that "high-powered" is an ill-defined catchphrase for a rifle capable of shooting large game. And that Kleins was selling military rifles like the Carcano as hunting rifles?

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/--sAAOSwXeJYG~Z8/s-l1600.jpg)
Ad from 1958
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 09, 2019, 08:43:21 PM
CE 399 was probably fired into a folded up mattress a couple of days before the assassination and planted wherever it was found by perhaps Jack Ruby.

The bullet being planted makes little sense to me, as there would have been no certainty for the conspirators that it would be found to serve the purpose for which it was planted.

If the bullet now in evidence as CE399 is not the bullet Tomlinson found, a more likely scenario would IMO be the original Parkland bullet being switched with one fired by the MC rifle into cotton wool as part of a cover up. Such a scenario would actually fit with the first four persons in the chain of custody not being able to identify the bullet, with Wright, in an interview, describing a different, more pointed, bullet and the lack of any trace of human tissue or fibers on the bullet as well as the minimal damage to the bullet.

Perhaps it was just happenstance that Tomlinson found an unrelated bullet.

The bullet being planted makes little sense to me, as there would have been no certainty for the conspirators that it would be found to serve the purpose for which it was planted.

True...Unless.... The finder was given the bullet and told to say that he found it at the scene, at Parkland....

I was schocked to learn that Darrel Tomlinson apparently hated JFK.... ( I don't know why I assumed that he was just an average citizen without strong sentiments about JFK.

Tomlinson avoided reporters and wouldn't talk about his role in the story......But several years after the murder of JFK a neighbor managed to loosen his tongue on Saturday afternoon after they had consumed a few beers.  The neighbor finally felt that he might get Darrell to say something about the finding of the bullet....But Tomlinson became a bit peeved and told the neighbor.....  "Who cares,....The SOB had it coming!"......
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 09, 2019, 08:53:02 PM
You do know that "high-powered" is an ill-defined catchphrase for a rifle capable of shooting large game. And that Kleins was selling military rifles like the Carcano as hunting rifles?

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/--sAAOSwXeJYG~Z8/s-l1600.jpg)
Ad from 1958

What kind of rifle is illustrated beneath the bold headline of " HIGH POWERED RIFLES "??

Would you call it a "hunting rifle".....oOr perhaps a "sporting rifle"....  Would you call it a "military rifle" like a mannlicher carcano ?   



Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 09, 2019, 08:56:29 PM
There was a need to further implicate Oswald. The miraculously found bullet was a means to an end.
"OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE OSWALD WAS ASSASSIN" Interview with Arlen Spector--The mastermind of the SBT.
Start with page 2 and see how Spector expounds why the SBT is absolute proof that Oswald was the assassin....
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=60461#relPageId=2&tab=page

There was a need to further implicate Oswald. The miraculously found bullet was a means to an end.
"OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE OSWALD WAS ASSASSIN"


Yes indeed...Who would disagree with the vaunted FBI "experts" ???  The FBI said it ... therefore it has to be true....
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 09, 2019, 11:33:42 PM
  Actually I stated 'miraculous' bullet. You begged to differ and that's OK because I lied. CE 399 was probably fired into a folded up mattress a couple of days before the assassination and planted wherever it was found by perhaps Jack Ruby. If the bullet had done what the official story says it did..the story that you believe ...then it would have been miraculous. So Tim...stepped on your own face once more at 80 MPH :-\

You've also called it the magic bullet multiple times. What exactly did the bullet do, according to the "official story", that was magical or miraculous?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jack Trojan on December 10, 2019, 12:51:35 AM
You've also called it the magic bullet multiple times. What exactly did the bullet do, according to the "official story", that was magical or miraculous?

It entered JFK's back at the T1 vertebrae and without deflection exited at the C7 vertebrae, then entered Connally’s back close to his right armpit, passed through his body, smashing several inches of one rib, came out of the right side of his chest, passed through his right wrist, breaking the radius bone, embedded itself in his left thigh then magically found its way onto another unrelated stretcher outside the OR, where it was discovered by a hospital employee in near-pristine condition without a trace of bone, blood, skin or flesh on it.

That's why it was..

(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/mgc.gif)

Wasn't Doug Henning a Canadian?  ;D
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 10, 2019, 01:47:16 AM
It entered JFK's back at the T1 vertebrae and without deflection exited at the C7 vertebrae, then entered Connally’s back close to his right armpit, passed through his body, smashing several inches of one rib, came out of the right side of his chest, passed through his right wrist, breaking the radius bone, embedded itself in his left thigh then magically found its way onto another unrelated stretcher outside the OR, where it was discovered by a hospital employee in near-pristine condition without a trace of bone, blood, skin or flesh on it.

That's why it was..

(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/mgc.gif)

Wasn't Doug Henning a Canadian?  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/Uv5R4i8.png)
It entered JFK's neck at the level of the C7 vertebrae and without deflection exited at the level of the C7 vertebrae,  then entered Connally’s back close to his right armpit, passed through his body, smashing several inches of one rib, came out of the right side of his chest, passed through his right wrist, breaking the radius bone, and embedded itself in his left thigh. The bullet fell out of Connally's thigh while he was on a stretcher at Parkland. Darrel Tomlinson found the bullet on that stretcher a short time later. The bullet had been flattened longitudinally from striking Connally's rib relatively side on. There is nothing magical at all about that bullet. Those who claim otherwise are either lying or are ignorant, or are just plain stupid.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jack Trojan on December 10, 2019, 03:12:54 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/Uv5R4i8.png)
It entered JFK's neck at the level of the C7 vertebrae and without deflection exited at the level of the C7 vertebrae,  then entered Connally’s back close to his right armpit, passed through his body, smashing several inches of one rib, came out of the right side of his chest, passed through his right wrist, breaking the radius bone, and embedded itself in his left thigh. The bullet fell out of Connally's thigh while he was on a stretcher at Parkland. Darrel Tomlinson found the bullet on that stretcher a short time later. The bullet had been flattened longitudinally from striking Connally's rib relatively side on. There is nothing magical at all about that bullet. Those who claim otherwise are either lying or are ignorant, or are just plain stupid.

 ;D "Those who claim otherwise are either lying or are ignorant, or are just plain stupid."

We all know who the retard is here, smart guy. Did you notice where you put the entrance wound on the back of the neck? A bit high, don't you think? Or do you?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 10, 2019, 03:20:43 AM
;D "Those who claim otherwise are either lying or are ignorant, or are just plain stupid."

We all know who the retard is here, smart guy. Did you notice where you put the entrance wound on the back of the neck? A bit high, don't you think? Or do you?

I don't believe it to be too high, nope. Of course, it's not meant to be exact. Close enough though.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jack Trojan on December 10, 2019, 03:22:30 AM
I don't believe it to be too high, nope. Of course, it's not meant to be exact. Close enough though.

Close enough? Funny, that's what Ford said.  ;D
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 10, 2019, 03:32:59 AM
Close enough? Funny, that's what Ford said.  ;D

Who?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 10, 2019, 10:01:27 PM
Close enough? Funny, that's what Ford said.  ;D
Who?
Who? Seriously? I mean really? Together with Arlene Specter he took that asinine theory you had recited above to a Warren Commission emergency meeting and then was rewarded later with an appointment to the office of vice-president. Or did you think his name was Henry? :D
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Organ on December 10, 2019, 10:05:52 PM
Who? Seriously? I mean really? Together with Arlene Specter he took that asinine theory you had recited above to a Warren Commission emergency meeting and then was rewarded later with an appointment to the office of vice-president. Or did you think his name was Henry? :D

You think there were two entry wounds to the neck region, one in the back and one in the front?

And that the autopsy people and the Commission just decided to "communicate" those two wound sites because a neck transit would go backwards to the Sniper's Nest window?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 11, 2019, 12:44:11 AM
Together with Arlene Specter he took that asinine theory you had recited above to a Warren Commission emergency meeting and then was rewarded later with an appointment to the office of vice-president.

Who? 
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 11, 2019, 12:46:06 AM
Who? Seriously? I mean really? Together with Arlene Specter he took that asinine theory you had recited above to a Warren Commission emergency meeting and then was rewarded later with an appointment to the office of vice-president. Or did you think his name was Henry? :D

What is asinine about the theory that I recited? Be specific.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 11, 2019, 01:01:55 AM
Who?
Who? What are you an owl?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 11, 2019, 02:28:48 AM
You think there were two entry wounds to the neck region, one in the back and one in the front?

And that the autopsy people and the Commission just decided to "communicate" those two wound sites because a neck transit would go backwards to the Sniper's Nest window?
No.... Of course not. I posted available links that have the doctors at Parkland describing a neck wound as an entry. Where that bullet/projectile went...I have no answer. Apparently-- the doctors didn't look for it. Their priority was to try and revive the president. Again here is a sketch of the presidents wounds as they saw them....

(https://throughtheoswaldwindow.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Autopsy-Chart.jpg?x49759)

That wound located further down into the the thoracic area was ignored and moved by the authorities...chiefly as I understand instituted by Arlene Specter and Gerald Ford so that they could account for one single bullet somehow striking two men.

I came back to modify---Where is an [authentic] autopsy picture showing a bullet wound in the back of the neck?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 11, 2019, 02:37:29 AM
What is asinine about the theory that I recited? Be specific.
You admit it is a theory...and it is the stupidest theory ever devised ...Even Gov John Connally disagreed that he was hit by the same shot [as been posted many times]    ::)
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 11, 2019, 04:04:50 AM
You admit it is a theory...and it is the stupidest theory ever devised ...Even Gov John Connally disagreed that he was hit by the same shot [as been posted many times]    ::)

You keep saying essentially the same spombleprofglidnoctobuns over and over again. I've asked you at least three times to explain and defend your statements on the Single bullet theory. Yes it's a theory. So is the Newtonian theory of gravity. You called the Single bullet magic and miraculous. You called the Single bullet theory asinine. Now, you've up it to the SBT being the stupidest theory ever devised. One more time, what is it about the single bullet that would require it to have been magical? What exactly is it about the Single Bullet theory that makes it asinine, let alone the stupidest theory ever devised? Put up or shut up.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 11, 2019, 02:40:03 PM
  I've asked you at least three times to explain and defend your statements on the Single bullet theory. Yes it's a theory.  One more time, what is it about the single bullet that would require it to have been magical?  Put up or shut up.
Put up or shut up? ----You are such a tool troll....You are not worth the keystrokes.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 11, 2019, 02:46:00 PM
Put up or shut up? ----You are such a tool troll....You are not worth the keystrokes.

Just as I thought; you're all hat and no cattle. What are you here for anyway?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Organ on December 11, 2019, 03:46:29 PM
No.... Of course not. I posted available links that have the doctors at Parkland describing a neck wound as an entry. Where that bullet/projectile went...I have no answer. Apparently-- the doctors didn't look for it. Their priority was to try and revive the president. Again here is a sketch of the presidents wounds as they saw them....

(https://throughtheoswaldwindow.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Autopsy-Chart.jpg?x49759)

That wound located further down into the the thoracic area

Not even Boswell clung to the mark on the face-sheet, amending it for the "Baltimore Sun" in 1966. You weren't aware of that?

While measurements on the face-sheet were accurate, markings were not necessarily so. For example, using the face-sheet, the vertical line that rises from the armpit roughly represents the location of the tip of the right acromion process; now note the distance between the "back" wound and right mastoid process on the skull -- it is 1 1/2 times greater. Yet both distances are the same according to measurements written on the face-sheet.

Quote
was ignored and moved by the authorities...chiefly as I understand instituted by Arlene Specter and Gerald Ford so that they could account for one single bullet somehow striking two men.

I came back to modify---Where is an [authentic] autopsy picture showing a bullet wound in the back of the neck?

Wow. I can't believe you've never seen this picture. Some "researcher".  :D

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QfsQW0gVsl8/UolUnPbdgII/AAAAAAAAw3k/YzyrV14nCX4/s1600/00e.+JFK+Autopsy+Photo.jpg) 
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b6/JFK_posterior_back_wound.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
Dox illustration for HSCA
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 11, 2019, 04:36:59 PM
Just as I thought; you're all hat and no cattle. What are you here for anyway?
Quote
you're all hat and no cattle
What in hell does that mean? I will no longer call you a troll...it is insulting to trolls.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 11, 2019, 05:28:56 PM
  Some "researcher". 
I will admit I haven't seen everything. You should admit that you don't know it all either.
Quote
Boswell clung to the mark on the face-sheet, amending it for the "Baltimore Sun" in 1966.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSp3XY5Zyyeu_1ylEecXSgz1jWnat1AzLzyCM2isleLPopYZ04E&s)(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/0/0b/Photo_nara_ce385.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRqLUBqBXBjsXmMJ0c6S6FhZuv5aOp7kXZm9sjEQBc9KtHmWsnn&s) 
Quote
In 1996, Boswell was interviewed by the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB) about the autopsy of John F. Kennedy. Boswell's testimony conflicted with that of Pierre Finck.
The presidents body was illegally shanghaied out of Dallas where a proper and detailed autopsy would have been performed. LBJ didn't want that. That bullet hole did move around considerably. You don't have to be a 'researcher' to see that.
Statements made three years later seem a day late and a dollar short.
The Zapruder film does not show Kennedy leaning forward [like above] before he was shot...as theorized by the Warren Commission.
The statements of Malcolm Perry are always ignored by proponents of the SBT.....
https://kennedysandking.com/obituaries/malcolm-perry-md-falls-into-the-kennedy-vortex
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 11, 2019, 05:43:19 PM
Not even Boswell clung to the mark on the face-sheet, amending it for the "Baltimore Sun" in 1966. You weren't aware of that?

While measurements on the face-sheet were accurate, markings were not necessarily so. For example, using the face-sheet, the vertical line that rises from the armpit roughly represents the location of the tip of the right acromion process; now note the distance between the "back" wound and right mastoid process on the skull -- it is 1 1/2 times greater. Yet both distances are the same according to measurements written on the face-sheet.

Wow. I can't believe you've never seen this picture. Some "researcher".  :D

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QfsQW0gVsl8/UolUnPbdgII/AAAAAAAAw3k/YzyrV14nCX4/s1600/00e.+JFK+Autopsy+Photo.jpg) 
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b6/JFK_posterior_back_wound.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
Dox illustration for HSCA

Jerry, The guy is obviously a moron. His driveway doesn't reach all the way out to the road.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 11, 2019, 05:57:48 PM
I asked...Where is an [authentic] autopsy picture showing a bullet wound in the back of the neck?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b6/JFK_posterior_back_wound.jpg)

That bullet hole is still in in the thoracic back and not the BACK of the neck and it should have gone downward [as was mentioned earlier]...how would it have it exited at the adams apple area? Those drawings devised by whoever still do not show what is in the autopsy photo.

Passed through his neck, not his back.
Cattle crap.

Jerry, The guy is obviously a moron. His driveway doesn't reach all the way out to the road.
I think that will do with the moron crap. OK? You don't agree but check the forum rules on insults.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Organ on December 11, 2019, 06:27:33 PM
I will admit I haven't seen everything. You should admit that you don't know it all either.

I admit it.

Quote
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSp3XY5Zyyeu_1ylEecXSgz1jWnat1AzLzyCM2isleLPopYZ04E&s)(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/0/0b/Photo_nara_ce385.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRqLUBqBXBjsXmMJ0c6S6FhZuv5aOp7kXZm9sjEQBc9KtHmWsnn&s)   

The presidents body was illegally shanghaied out of Dallas where a proper and detailed autopsy would have been performed.

Shanghaied? What artistic license. Was that uttered in the "JFK" movie?

Quote
LBJ didn't want that. That bullet hole did move around considerably.

Kennedy wasn't shot with a Glock.

Quote
You don't have to be a 'researcher' to see that.

Truer words were never spoken.

Quote
Statements made three years later seem a day late and a dollar short.

When Boswell drew the autopsy sheet he didn't anticipate how stupid critics would be in their wacko interpretation of it. By 1966 more kids were going to college, smoking weed and being paranoid about Vietnam and LBJ's ascension. LSD was legal then. About the worst decade to have a series of LN assassinations.

Quote
The Zapruder film does not show Kennedy leaning forward [like above] before he was shot

The HSCA sketch just shows the forward slump of the neck area as it would have been in life. The Committee assumed critics would be smart enough to pretend the head would automatically reorient to vertical. But the Committee was only around a handful of critics for brief periods and didn't really know how stupid they were.

Quote

...as theorized by the Warren Commission.


The Warren Commission never saw the HSCA sketch. And if they did they would have enough sense to make use of their brain, read what the sketch was meant to represent, apply common sense and re-orientate the head.

Quote
The statements of Malcolm Perry are always ignored by proponents of the SBT.....
https://kennedysandking.com/obituaries/malcolm-perry-md-falls-into-the-kennedy-vortex (https://kennedysandking.com/obituaries/malcolm-perry-md-falls-into-the-kennedy-vortex)

So he thought it was an entrance wound for awhile. He made a mistake, They don't get many military-style bullet wounds where the exit point was held firm by a shirt collar stitched band and neck tie.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 11, 2019, 07:31:48 PM
Shanghaied? What artistic license. Was that uttered in the "JFK" movie?
I don't know but it was a fact...an obvious grab and getaway.
 
Quote
By 1966 more kids were going to college, smoking weed and being paranoid about Vietnam and LBJ's ascension. LSD was legal then. About the worst decade to have a series of LN assassinations.
Has nothing to do with the fact that Johnson and Hoover were a couple of criminals.
Warren Report proponents make it sound like if someone doesn't agree...they are the criminals. 
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Organ on December 11, 2019, 08:59:32 PM
I asked...Where is an [authentic] autopsy picture showing a bullet wound in the back of the neck?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b6/JFK_posterior_back_wound.jpg)

And you were shown it.

Quote
That bullet hole is still in in the thoracic back and not the BACK of the neck and it should have gone downward [as was mentioned earlier]...how would it have it exited at the adams apple area? Those drawings devised by whoever still do not show what is in the autopsy photo. Cattle crap. I think that will do with the moron crap. OK? You don't agree but check the forum rules on insults.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/neckwound/neck-transit-in-autopsy-photo-of-back.jpg)

Because there's a ruler in the photo, we can measure with some confidence (but not absolute confidence) areas near to the ruler. The ruler goes off-plane a bit as it is seen lower down, but we're only interested in the area where the in-shoot is.

I combined standard 3D models of the male body and skeleton scaled to a male body 6' 1" tall. The scale is 1:1. The only articulation was to the shoulder group of the outer body and two bones (per side) in the skeleton: the scapula and clavicle; the arm bones accordingly were raised but not rotated. For the Stare-of-Death inset, I copied the head and tried to match the retroflection seen in the photo. The photo with the back of the head shows the head retroflexed but it wasn't as much as in the Stare-of-Death picture. I decided not to duplicate the retroflexion for the back of the head model because it doesn't really affect the in-shoot wound.

"A" is the distance from the lowest crease on the President's nape to the bullet wound, as reported by the 1968 Clark Panel. "B" shows an arc that is 14 cm away from the bullet hole; the arc line appears to intersect the tip of the right acromion process and the right mastoid process, just like the autopsy and face-sheet said. The lowest neck crease was located with reference to the Left-Profile photo.

For what it's worth, this particular model shows a missile path from the base-of-the-back-of-the-neck wound to the exit point in the Stare-of-Death photo does not strike the main spinal column, and passes it at the C7/T1 area. In this particular case, it does show a strike on the C7 transverse process, but remember this is not Kennedy's actual skeleton. A reasonable margin-of-error must be considered.

Just a rough early attempt and at least a blueprint for more capable work in the future.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: John Iacoletti on December 11, 2019, 09:24:45 PM
When Boswell drew the autopsy sheet he didn't anticipate how stupid critics would be in their wacko interpretation of it.

And when Dr. Burkley said "third thoracic vertebra", he didn't really mean "third thoracic vertebra".
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 11, 2019, 10:27:40 PM
When Boswell drew the autopsy sheet he didn't anticipate how stupid critics would be in their wacko interpretation of it
Seems like an anachronism there---
 Dr Boswell would have done a better job of compiling his autopsy notes..had he known there would be challenges regarding them? :-\
 For crying out loud..this was an autopsy on an assassinated president.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 11, 2019, 11:16:13 PM
Seems like an anachronism there---
 Dr Boswell would have done a better job of compiling his autopsy notes..had he known there would be challenges regarding them? :-\
 For crying out loud..this was an autopsy on an assassinated president.

Boswell did a fine job compiling his autopsy notes. Just as Earl Rose did when performing the autopsy on Oswald. His notes were accurate. His markings on the Facesheet diagram were not.  Markings on the drawings are never meant to be precise. The notations are what matter. You really are clueless about this stuff.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Freeman on December 12, 2019, 02:32:58 AM
You really are clueless about this stuff.

 Not entirely. I at least went back and restarted reading from post #1 and saw what was and what might have been.
According to the linked memo authored by SA Warner of the Secret Service ... https://i.imgur.com/rk20BhI.jpg
The stretcher in question "was left unattended for approx one hour" according... to the statement to him by attendant Tomlinson.
That is a long time :-\  Hospital security Wright's statement according to... https://imgur.com/CIn10To  stated that "It could not be determined who used that stretcher." Further stating that "The attached bullet was received about 5 minutes before Mrs Kennedy departed for the airport."
It was not far at all from Parkland to Love Field. LBJ was sworn in at 2:38 [Dallas time]
Wright said that the bullet "was attached" ... to what? Any clue?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 12, 2019, 03:04:19 AM

 Not entirely. I at least went back and restarted reading from post #1 and saw what was and what might have been.
According to the linked memo authored by SA Warner of the Secret Service ... https://i.imgur.com/rk20BhI.jpg
The stretcher in question "was left unattended for approx one hour" according... to the statement to him by attendant Tomlinson.
That is a long time :-\

About an hour. I doubt that it was that long but one can't blame Tomlinson for not keeping track of time. It's not important. What matters is that Tomlinson said that he found the bullet on that stretcher.

 
Quote
Hospital security Wright's statement according to... https://imgur.com/CIn10To  stated that "It could not be determined who used that stretcher." Further stating that "The attached bullet was received about 5 minutes before Mrs Kennedy departed for the airport."
It was not far at all from Parkland to Love Field. LBJ was sworn in at 2:38 [Dallas time]
Wright said that the bullet "was attached" ... to what? Any clue?

That's not Wright's statement. It's SS Agent Richard Johnsen's statement. He had received the bullet from Wright and was relaying what Wright had told him. At the time that Wright handed the bullet over to Johnsen ,he would not have known who had been on the stretcher. Neither would Tomlinson have known for that matter. All that Tomlinson knew is that he had pulled the stretcher off of the elevator. Johnsen typed up that note and attached it to an envelop that contained the bullet. Hence the "attached expended bullet". Johnsen passed the envelop containing the bullet with attached note over to SS Agent James Rowley who then gave it to FBI agent Elmer Todd. Finally, Todd gave it to FBI Agent Robert Frazier. Here is the envelop that contained the bullet:

(https://i.imgur.com/DUseR8g.jpg)
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Martin Weidmann on December 12, 2019, 05:58:02 AM
You keep saying essentially the same spombleprofglidnoctobuns over and over again. I've asked you at least three times to explain and defend your statements on the Single bullet theory. Yes it's a theory. So is the Newtonian theory of gravity. You called the Single bullet magic and miraculous. You called the Single bullet theory asinine. Now, you've up it to the SBT being the stupidest theory ever devised. One more time, what is it about the single bullet that would require it to have been magical? What exactly is it about the Single Bullet theory that makes it asinine, let alone the stupidest theory ever devised? Put up or shut up.

Yes it's a theory. So is the Newtonian theory of gravity.

The only difference is that Newton's theory has been proven correct time and time again.... The SBT has been proven at all!
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 12, 2019, 01:24:51 PM
Yes it's a theory. So is the Newtonian theory of gravity.

The only difference is that Newton's theory has been proven correct time and time again.... The SBT has been proven at all!

The SBT has really been established as the Single Bullet fact in the minds of most who have studied it.  Of course, there will always be deniers but that goes with everything. The SBT fits. Nothing else does. At least not credibly anyway.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Martin Weidmann on December 12, 2019, 02:03:04 PM
The SBT has really been established as the Single Bullet fact in the minds of most who have studied it.  Of course, there will always be deniers but that goes with everything. The SBT fits. Nothing else does. At least not credibly anyway.

It may fit your theory, but that doesn't make it an established fact. It only makes it your opinion.

Just as it is my opinion, after having studied it, that there are way too many unresolved variables to call it anything other than a convenient theory.

The SBT fits. Nothing else does. At least not credibly anyway.

What else has ever seriously been officially investigated that did not fit?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 12, 2019, 02:44:29 PM
It may fit your theory, but that doesn't make it an established fact. It only makes it your opinion.

Just as it is my opinion, after having studied it, that there are way too many unresolved variables to call it anything other than a convenient theory.

What are the unresolved variables?

Quote
The SBT fits. Nothing else does. At least not credibly anyway.

What else has ever seriously been officially investigated that did not fit?

For one, they looked at a "three shots fired, three shots hit" scenario. That didn't fit. The better question would be "What other possible scenarios have been looked at that did fit?" I've seen numerous attempts made but most of them are farcical.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Martin Weidmann on December 12, 2019, 03:47:53 PM
What are the unresolved variables?

For one, they looked at a "three shots fired, three shots hit" scenario. That didn't fit. The better question would be "What other possible scenarios have been looked at that did fit?" I've seen numerous attempts made but most of them are farcical.

What are the unresolved variables?

The exact positions of Kennedy and Connally relative to each other at the moment of the shot(s), the exact posture of Kennedy at the moment of the shot(s), the exact location of the car at the moment of the shot(s). There has been 56 years of discussions about this and there is still no mutual agreement.

For one, they looked at a "three shots fired, three shots hit" scenario.

The "three shots fired" scenario is just about the only thing they ever looked at. The "three shots hit" scenario was the initial assumption until they found they only had two bullets left to account for all the wounds which of course was why the SBT was concocted.

The better question would be "What other possible scenarios have been looked at that did fit?" I've seen numerous attempts made but most of them are farcical.


Numerous attempts? Really... pray tell which official investigative body did them?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 12, 2019, 03:55:57 PM
The SBT has really been established as the Single Bullet fact in the minds of most who have studied it.  Of course, there will always be deniers but that goes with everything. The SBT fits. Nothing else does. At least not credibly anyway.

 The SBT fits. Nothing else does. At least not credibly anyway.

Of course!!....  there are tens of thousands of murder mysteries in which the facts fit the conclusion..... They are FICTION.    The SBT is FICTION...
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Organ on December 12, 2019, 04:41:38 PM
What are the unresolved variables?

For one, they looked at a "three shots fired, three shots hit" scenario. That didn't fit. The better question would be "What other possible scenarios have been looked at that did fit?" I've seen numerous attempts made but most of them are farcical.

Well, critics have fired Carcano bullets nose-on at full-velocity into cow bones and proclaimed it was under the same conditions as the bullet that struck Connally's wrist.

They concluded that since they got mushroomed bullets then the "pristine" Magic Bullet had no part in the assassination. As far as they're concerned, they have tested the theory and have physical proof through testing that it is "stupid" or "miraculous".

(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/mgc.gif)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
Conspiracy Loon Briefing
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Martin Weidmann on December 12, 2019, 04:49:42 PM
Well, critics have fired Carcano bullets nose-on at full-velocity into cow bones and proclaimed it was under the same conditions as the bullet that struck Connally's wrist.

They concluded that since they got mushroomed bullets then the "pristine" Magic Bullet had no part in the assassination. As far as they're concerned, they have tested the theory and have physical proof through testing that it is "stupid" or "miraculous".


Jerry,

Are you aware of a test where a Carcano bullet at any velocity was fired into bones and ended up near pristine as CE399?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Organ on December 12, 2019, 05:04:57 PM
Jerry,

Are you aware of a test where a Carcano bullet at any velocity was fired into bones and ended up near pristine as CE399?

You mean nose-on at full-velocity, or can I cite tests that made the bullet tumble first?
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 12, 2019, 05:13:46 PM

The exact positions of Kennedy and Connally relative to each other at the moment of the shot(s), the exact posture of Kennedy at the moment of the shot(s), the exact location of the car at the moment of the shot(s). There has been 56 years of discussions about this and there is still no mutual agreement.


We don't need to know those variables to exactness to be able to say whether the SBT works or not. We know them to approximation. The SBT works within those measured judgments.

Quote
The "three shots fired" scenario is just about the only thing they ever looked at. The "three shots hit" scenario was the initial assumption until they found they only had two bullets left to account for all the wounds which of course was why the SBT was concocted.

They looked for evidence of more than three shots but couldn't find any. The SBT wasn't concocted. It was a conclusion reached after a thorough consideration of the evidence.

Quote
Numerous attempts? Really... pray tell which official investigative body did them?

Not official investigative bodies. Kook theorists mostly. Usually more than three shots involved , from multiple directions.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Tim Nickerson on December 12, 2019, 05:15:01 PM
Jerry,

Are you aware of a test where a Carcano bullet at any velocity was fired into bones and ended up near pristine as CE399?

I don't know about Jerry, but I am.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Martin Weidmann on December 12, 2019, 07:18:12 PM

We don't need to know those variables to exactness to be able to say whether the SBT works or not. We know them to approximation. The SBT works within those measured judgments.

They looked for evidence of more than three shots but couldn't find any. The SBT wasn't concocted. It was a conclusion reached after a thorough consideration of the evidence.

Not official investigative bodies. Kook theorists mostly. Usually more than three shots involved , from multiple directions.

We don't need to know those variables to exactness to be able to say whether the SBT works or not. We know them to approximation. The SBT works within those measured judgments.

Well, with "approximations" and "measured judgments" (whatever that is supposed to be) you can get anything to fit.

They looked for evidence of more than three shots but couldn't find any.

Yeah right, sure they did....

The SBT wasn't concocted. It was a conclusion reached after a thorough consideration of the evidence.

If you say so.....

Not official investigative bodies. Kook theorists mostly. Usually more than three shots involved , from multiple directions.

Exactly... No official investigative body has ever seriously looked into other possible scenarios.

Three shots and a lone gunman, that was all they wanted to know.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jack Trojan on December 12, 2019, 10:12:39 PM
Well, critics have fired Carcano bullets nose-on at full-velocity into cow bones and proclaimed it was under the same conditions as the bullet that struck Connally's wrist.

They concluded that since they got mushroomed bullets then the "pristine" Magic Bullet had no part in the assassination. As far as they're concerned, they have tested the theory and have physical proof through testing that it is "stupid" or "miraculous".

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
Conspiracy Loon Briefing

You guys are so full of spombleprofglidnoctobuns. You never look at the big picture. You always focus on one element that you think you can discredit without any justification. You have to use logic and critical thinking to resolve this. Not only was CE-399 in near-pristine condition after smashing thru bones, it had no DNA on it and it showed up on the wrong stretcher. Full stop. How much more evidence do you non-critical thinkers need to know CE-399 was...

(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/mgc.gif)

And when are any of you cheap, lazy LNers going to post the results of my 2 laser challenge, which is the ONLY way you are going to PROVE that the Magic Bullet was possible. As a bonus you get the benefit of watching me eat crow, which is surely enough incentive for you to do the damn experiment.

It's pretty funny watching you try to rationalize how your internet graphics support that there was a valid trajectory from the 6th floor of the TSBD entering JFK's back at the T1 vertebrae then exiting thru JFK's throat (before tumbling into Connally) at the C7 vertebrae. None of your BS graphics have verified anything you claim.

DO THE 2 LASER CHALLENGE or else STFU because you and Nickerson know squat about this stuff and you are only doing the forum members a disservice.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jerry Organ on December 12, 2019, 10:51:34 PM
You guys are so full of spombleprofglidnoctobuns. You never look at the big picture. You always focus on one element that you think you can discredit without any justification. You have to use logic and critical thinking to resolve this. Not only was CE-399 in near-pristine condition after smashing thru bones, it had no DNA on it and it showed up on the wrong stretcher. Full stop. How much more evidence do you non-critical thinkers need to know CE-399 was...

(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/mgc.gif)

And when are any of you cheap, lazy LNers going to post the results of my 2 laser challenge, which is the ONLY way you are going to PROVE that the Magic Bullet was possible. As a bonus you get the benefit of watching me eat crow, which is surely enough incentive for you to do the damn experiment.

It's pretty funny watching you try to rationalize how your internet graphics support that there was a valid trajectory from the 6th floor of the TSBD entering JFK's back at the T1 vertebrae then exiting thru JFK's throat (before tumbling into Connally) at the C7 vertebrae. None of your BS graphics have verified anything you claim.

DO THE 2 LASER CHALLENGE or else STFU because you and Nickerson know squat about this stuff and you are only doing the forum members a disservice.

"entering JFK's back at the T1 vertebrae then exiting thru JFK's throat (before tumbling into Connally) at the C7 vertebrae"

Is your head on backwards? :D

(http://freakonomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/moretigersmasks.png)

That's why you won't show us your pictures.
Title: Re: Kennedy assassination bullets preserved in digital form
Post by: Jack Trojan on December 14, 2019, 01:09:31 AM
"entering JFK's back at the T1 vertebrae then exiting thru JFK's throat (before tumbling into Connally) at the C7 vertebrae"

Is your head on backwards? :D

(http://freakonomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/moretigersmasks.png)

That's why you won't show us your pictures.

Go ahead and tell me that's "air" from the missile at T1. It won't change its location. :D

(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/x-ray_mb.gif)