JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Michael Walton on November 12, 2019, 09:14:27 PM
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Not a valid vimeo URL
This is a pretty amazing piece of work. I found this over at the (un)Education Forum. I reached out to him and told him he should insert at least Lovelady and Frazier up on the steps of the building because of the *possibility* it may be Oswald up there. Some of the so-called "experts" over there (you know who you are...or maybe not LOL) are already overwhelming him with "48 FPS and not this many FPS." He's already like, "Let me make sure I understand you."
LOL
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Not a valid vimeo URL
This is a pretty amazing piece of work. I found this over at the (un)Education Forum. I reached out to him and told him he should insert at least Lovelady and Frazier up on the steps of the building because of the *possibility* it may be Oswald up there. Some of the so-called "experts" over there (you know who you are...or maybe not LOL) are already overwhelming him with "48 FPS and not this many FPS." He's already like, "Let me make sure I understand you."
LOL
This is a pretty amazing piece of work.
Yes indeed it is.... There is so much information that it's difficult to process....
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Not a valid vimeo URL
This is a pretty amazing piece of work. I found this over at the (un)Education Forum. I reached out to him and told him he should insert at least Lovelady and Frazier up on the steps of the building because of the *possibility* it may be Oswald up there. Some of the so-called "experts" over there (you know who you are...or maybe not LOL) are already overwhelming him with "48 FPS and not this many FPS." He's already like, "Let me make sure I understand you."
LOL
Interesting! So it appears to me that the tail end of the motorcade was still just leaving Dealey Plaza as the Presidential limousine was entering the emergency entrance at Parkland Hospital! And if we had more information about the exact timing of Oswald’s exit from the TSBD we might be able to plot his escape while the tail end of the motorcade was still exiting Dealey Plaza!
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Amazing piece of work. However you have the pilot car entering Dealey Plaza way too late. It was running about 2 minutes 30 seconds ahead of JFKs limo. That means it turned into Dealey plaza off Main street at about 12:27.
Dallas Homicide detective, B.L Senkel, was riding in the rear of the pilot car. He said that as the pilot car turned off Main onto Houston street, he looked back and saw that the motorcade was 7 blocks behind them on about Akard street. This is a distance of half a mile. JFKs limo was travelling at a speed of between 12-15 miles per hour as he drove down Main Street. That means the pilot car was somewhere between 2 minutes and 2 minutes 30 seconds ahead of JFKs limo.
I like the way you have the pilot car stopping outside the TSBD. I can't find much documentary evidence that it actually did this, but it has been suggested that it did stop briefly there and the driver spoke to a policeman.
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Walt - there's a button on your keyboard. It controls the playback of the video. Use it to pause and play and as you pause, read the info that's coming in. Just because the data is coming in quickly doesn't mean you have to sit there and take it all in at once.
Charles - good point. If you can somehow track down when Oswald supposedly left the building, post here and perhaps Mark can update it.
Margaret - Mark said he's trying to make this as factually accurate as possible. If you know something is incorrect, don't just say so - back it up with testimony or whatever so Mark can review and update.
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Amazing piece of work. However you have the pilot car entering Dealey Plaza way too late. It was running about 2 minutes 30 seconds ahead of JFKs limo. That means it turned into Dealey plaza off Main street at about 12:27.
Dallas Homicide detective, B.L Senkel, was riding in the rear of the pilot car. He said that as the pilot car turned off Main onto Houston street, he looked back and saw that the motorcade was 7 blocks behind them on about Akard street. This is a distance of half a mile. JFKs limo was travelling at a speed of between 12-15 miles per hour as he drove down Main Street. That means the pilot car was somewhere between 2 minutes and 2 minutes 30 seconds ahead of JFKs limo.
I like the way you have the pilot car stopping outside the TSBD. I can't find much documentary evidence that it actually did this, but it has been suggested that it did stop briefly there and the driver spoke to a policeman.
Hello Margaret. Thanks for taking the time to check the details in the animation. For more information about the work, have a look at the home page here:
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html)
There are tables of numbers for: the photos; events; and the actor names. There is also a technical reference handbook which explains how I created the work, how I made my judgements, and what implications this all has for interpreting the events from 1963.
The documentation I used for the Pilot car stopping was the statement in the Warren Commission volume 21 page 579:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pdf/WH21_Stevenson_Ex_5053.pdf (https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pdf/WH21_Stevenson_Ex_5053.pdf)
Thanks for mentioning the Akard Street comment, which I found in the Warren Commission volume 24 page 324:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/WH24_CE_2003.pdf (https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/WH24_CE_2003.pdf)
I positioned the Pilot car assuming it was about 30 seconds ahead of the advanced motorbikes. Here is the AMIPA film taken near the Market Street turn on Main Street:
At about 28 seconds into the video you can see something that could be lights flashing on and off just behind the crowd (possibly a motorbike), with the shadow of the Pilot car just passing the camera after the advance car turned off onto Market Street. Upon reflection this flashing probably isn't a bike, and is more likely to be something else. Therefore there does need to be a longer gap as you suggest between the pilot car and the motorbikes behind (about 30-60 secs more I would guess). I shall test this out in the coming days before making a final judgement on the exact gap.
Thanks for taking an interest in the project and helping nail the facts down!
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Therefore there does need to be a longer gap as you suggest between the pilot car and the motorbikes behind (about 30-60 secs more I would guess). I shall test this out in the coming days before making a final judgement on the exact gap.
Thanks, i'd like to see this and see what you come up with.
I got the "JFKs limo was travelling at a speed of between 12-15 miles per hour as he drove down Main Street." from Bill Greers WC testimony.
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This is kind of a small point but i said i'd say it here for completeness. You have the head shot occurring at 12:30. It should actually occur at about 12:30 and 30 seconds. This is because when the vice-presidential car turned the corner onto Houston street, Rufus Youngblood noticed that the Hertz sign ahead of him (on the roof of the TSBD) was already reading 12:30. Here is the relevant WC testimony:
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to fix the precise time of the assassination?
Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would say 12:30. I was to keep the times. The Vice President was asking me if we were running on time, and so forth. And so he asked me how much further, and I would call back to our followup car and ask them how many more miles and so forth.
So, for this reason, I was at that time keeping up with the time very closely. And when we turned the corner, I noticed an illuminated clock sign on this building, which I now know is the School Book Depository Building.
And that clock indicated 12:30. And the reason it is significant is because this was the time we were supposed to arrive at the Trade Mart.
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This is kind of a small point but i said i'd say it here for completeness. You have the head shot occurring at 12:30. It should actually occur at about 12:30 and 30 seconds. This is because when the vice-presidential car turned the corner onto Houston street, Rufus Youngblood noticed that the Hertz sign ahead of him (on the roof of the TSBD) was already reading 12:30. Here is the relevant WC testimony:
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to fix the precise time of the assassination?
Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would say 12:30. I was to keep the times. The Vice President was asking me if we were running on time, and so forth. And so he asked me how much further, and I would call back to our followup car and ask them how many more miles and so forth.
So, for this reason, I was at that time keeping up with the time very closely. And when we turned the corner, I noticed an illuminated clock sign on this building, which I now know is the School Book Depository Building.
And that clock indicated 12:30. And the reason it is significant is because this was the time we were supposed to arrive at the Trade Mart.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?
Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And I did notice the time on the Hertz clock. It was 12:29.
Mr. WILLIS. I even observed the clock on top of the building, it was 12:33 when I looked up there.
JohnM
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This is kind of a small point but i said i'd say it here for completeness. You have the head shot occurring at 12:30. It should actually occur at about 12:30 and 30 seconds. This is because when the vice-presidential car turned the corner onto Houston street, Rufus Youngblood noticed that the Hertz sign ahead of him (on the roof of the TSBD) was already reading 12:30. Here is the relevant WC testimony:
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to fix the precise time of the assassination?
Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would say 12:30. I was to keep the times. The Vice President was asking me if we were running on time, and so forth. And so he asked me how much further, and I would call back to our followup car and ask them how many more miles and so forth.
So, for this reason, I was at that time keeping up with the time very closely. And when we turned the corner, I noticed an illuminated clock sign on this building, which I now know is the School Book Depository Building.
And that clock indicated 12:30. And the reason it is significant is because this was the time we were supposed to arrive at the Trade Mart.
On page 371 of "Pictures of the Pain," author Richard B. Trask quotes Thomas M. Atkins:
"We came to the end of [Main Street] and made that right-hand turn, and were going directly at the [Texas School Book] Depository. Just as we turned, I remember looking at my watch, and it was 12:30, and just as I looked at my watch I heard an explosion. ... And then immediately following there were two more quick explosions, and my stomach just went into a knot
James C. Bowles, in his rebuttal to the acoustical evidence theory (1979), indicates his studies of the police recordings show the first shot occurred at approximately 12:30:55.
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Like a lot of things with this case, people here and elsewhere quibble over the minutiae of this case. Does it really matter if the shots occurred at 12:30 and 14 seconds or 12:29 and 58 seconds?
The larger point here is this animation brings home an excellent bird's eye, real-time view as it happened that day that no single photo nor witness statement could ever match. It's important, too, to remember that people were not standing around that day in DP saying "Wait for it! Here it comes! What time is it...?!" Obviously, no one expected it to happen so, therefore, witness statements about the precise timing the shots occurred are going to vary.
Isn't there a photo taken way down on Elm Street where Jack Daniel was that clearly shows the car heading toward the photographer and it shows the clock in the background? I think the clock shows 12:30? And with the car already out of the kill zone, the Z313 shot would have been fired seconds beforehand?
See what I mean? Does it matter? We should be appreciative of what Tyler has done here. It's an amazing piece of work and I've emailed him to ask him to see if he'd be willing to add more features to it. Not quibbles about when the pilot car went by and the precise time down to the millisecond of when the third shot was fired. Further, his animation has already proven, at least for me, and debunked one of the more ridiculous theories of the case - that the Zapruder film, and then the Nix and Muchmore films as well as photos, have been altered or frames have been removed.
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Like a lot of things with this case, people here and elsewhere quibble over the minutiae of this case. Does it really matter if the shots occurred at 12:30 and 14 seconds or 12:29 and 58 seconds?
The larger point here is this animation brings home an excellent bird's eye, real-time view as it happened that day that no single photo nor witness statement could ever match. It's important, too, to remember that people were not standing around that day in DP saying "Wait for it! Here it comes! What time is it...?!" Obviously, no one expected it to happen so, therefore, witness statements about the precise timing the shots occurred are going to vary.
Isn't there a photo taken way down on Elm Street where Jack Daniel was that clearly shows the car heading toward the photographer and it shows the clock in the background? I think the clock shows 12:30? And with the car already out of the kill zone, the Z313 shot would have been fired seconds beforehand?
See what I mean? Does it matter? We should be appreciative of what Tyler has done here. It's an amazing piece of work and I've emailed him to ask him to see if he'd be willing to add more features to it. Not quibbles about when the pilot car went by and the precise time down to the millisecond of when the third shot was fired. Further, his animation has already proven, at least for me, and debunked one of the more ridiculous theories of the case - that the Zapruder film, and then the Nix and Muchmore films as well as photos, have been altered or frames have been removed.
Yes there is the photo of the motorcade with the digital clock showing 12:30 as you described. The cases were solved before midnight on 11/22/63 and LHO was charged with both of the crimes. But we’ve been arguing the minutiae ever since the first few details started being reported in the minutes following the shootings. I was watching the television coverage of 11/22/63 recently and had to chuckle at one news commentator who was already insisting that every new item indicated a conspiracy just had to have occurred. He obviously already had his mind made up about a conspiracy before enough information had been disclosed to even determine what had taken place!
The point is that the controversy will continue and people will continue to argue the minutiae long after we are all gone. And there isn’t anything we can produce that will change that. Yes, the animation is a good and useful thing. But it is also just something else that people are going to argue about.
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This is kind of a small point but i said i'd say it here for completeness. You have the head shot occurring at 12:30. It should actually occur at about 12:30 and 30 seconds. This is because when the vice-presidential car turned the corner onto Houston street, Rufus Youngblood noticed that the Hertz sign ahead of him (on the roof of the TSBD) was already reading 12:30. Here is the relevant WC testimony:
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to fix the precise time of the assassination?
Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would say 12:30. I was to keep the times. The Vice President was asking me if we were running on time, and so forth. And so he asked me how much further, and I would call back to our followup car and ask them how many more miles and so forth.
So, for this reason, I was at that time keeping up with the time very closely. And when we turned the corner, I noticed an illuminated clock sign on this building, which I now know is the School Book Depository Building.
And that clock indicated 12:30. And the reason it is significant is because this was the time we were supposed to arrive at the Trade Mart.
The exact timing of the fatal shot is a tricky one, with different people saying it was 12:29 or 12:30. Any witness with a watch or clock could well be a minute off either way, so its probably impossible to say exactly what the time was with any confidence.
The other reason I chose 12:30:00 in the animation is for convenience as it makes it easier for the viewer to navigate, such as 30 seconds before or after the fatal shot. By contrast if I had a more obscure time like 12:30:33 it would be very difficult for the viewer to get their bearings.
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Like a lot of things with this case, people here and elsewhere quibble over the minutiae of this case. Does it really matter if the shots occurred at 12:30 and 14 seconds or 12:29 and 58 seconds?
The larger point here is this animation brings home an excellent bird's eye, real-time view as it happened that day that no single photo nor witness statement could ever match. It's important, too, to remember that people were not standing around that day in DP saying "Wait for it! Here it comes! What time is it...?!" Obviously, no one expected it to happen so, therefore, witness statements about the precise timing the shots occurred are going to vary.
Isn't there a photo taken way down on Elm Street where Jack Daniel was that clearly shows the car heading toward the photographer and it shows the clock in the background? I think the clock shows 12:30? And with the car already out of the kill zone, the Z313 shot would have been fired seconds beforehand?
See what I mean? Does it matter? We should be appreciative of what Tyler has done here. It's an amazing piece of work and I've emailed him to ask him to see if he'd be willing to add more features to it. Not quibbles about when the pilot car went by and the precise time down to the millisecond of when the third shot was fired. Further, his animation has already proven, at least for me, and debunked one of the more ridiculous theories of the case - that the Zapruder film, and then the Nix and Muchmore films as well as photos, have been altered or frames have been removed.
Yes, the "McIntire 1" photo shows the Hertz clock at 12:30 here:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/jfkMcIntire1.jpg)
According to the synchronizations I have done, this is around 10-15 seconds after the fatal shot which means that having 12:30:00 as the moment of the fatal shot is accurate within 45 seconds (assuming the Hertz clock is correct of course!).
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Here is the latest release of Motorcade 63 (version 1.7):
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html)
As well as general tweaking to improve the accuracy (thanks to everyone who helped out this time!), I added a yellow triangle for the Dillard 2 photo (just seconds after the final shot was fired).
Perhaps more importantly, I added the Jack Weaver photo which I calculate as happening at the same time as Zapruder frame Z035 based on the triangulated position of the motorbike turning the corner:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Weaver.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z035.jpg)
If you look closely, you can see JFK's crooked elbow in Muchmore frame 267 as he pushes his hair back:
(https://i.ibb.co/NC5yKLw/muchmore267.jpg)
The full details are in appendix D.2 of the updated handbook. Crucially this spell of the Zapruder film was recorded while the Hughes and Muchmore films were also being recorded, which means I have been able to calculate the relative speeds that the films were all recorded at. For example if the Hughes film was recorded at 18 FPS, then the Zapruder and Muchmore film rates were 18.4 FPS. If the Hughes film was recorded at 19 FPS, then Zapruder and Muchmore were recording at 19.4 FPS. We can never know the exact rates, only the numerical relationships between them.
This correlation of different films was possible by matching unique events that were recorded in each of the films, and by doing split second comparisons. For example I was able to calculate the relative speeds of the Muchmore film and the Hughes film using the front blinking lights on the Presidential Limo. These observations prove that the Muchmore film was recorded fractionally faster than the Hughes film.
As always, if anyone disagrees with the animation, my calculations, or methodology, please let me know as I am keen to make the work as accurate as possible.
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Thanks, i'd like to see this and see what you come up with.
I got the "JFKs limo was travelling at a speed of between 12-15 miles per hour as he drove down Main Street." from Bill Greers WC testimony.
Hello Margaret
I have just published the latest version of the animation. In the end I moved the Pilot Car forward by 45 seconds which gets it into the 12:27 range as mentioned in your previous post.
Let me know if any other adjustments are required on this, or if anything else needs my attention.
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Hello Margaret
I have just published the latest version of the animation. In the end I moved the Pilot Car forward by 45 seconds which gets it into the 12:27 range as mentioned in your previous post.
Let me know if any other adjustments are required on this, or if anything else needs my attention.
Looks very good Mark. I notice that you did not include the Bell footage though. You have Bell as standing on a concrete plinth as number 59. Is that where he was standing when he took his footage of the motorcade on Houston street?
Also, as a side note, how confident are you that you have the correct position of Altgens when he took the "Altgens 5" photo while standing at the Main/Houston street intersection? (i'm not questioning your positioning of him, just curious as to how accurate you think you were able to get him. To within 3 or 4 feet do you think?)
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Looks very good Mark. I notice that you did not include the Bell footage though. You have Bell as standing on a concrete plinth as number 59. Is that where he was standing when he took his footage of the motorcade on Houston street?
Also, as a side note, how confident are you that you have the correct position of Altgens when he took the "Altgens 5" photo while standing at the Main/Houston street intersection? (i'm not questioning your positioning of him, just curious as to how accurate you think you were able to get him. To within 3 or 4 feet do you think?)
Thanks Margaret. The early part of the Bell film looks somewhat strange as it was framed rather high, so I didn't use the early part of it as the Limo travelled along Houston Street (only on the turn onto Elm). I think he was standing on the concrete plinth, as the angles seem to match up relative him looking down the pathway to the TSBD:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/bellslow_frame_0040.jpg)
Someone helpfully constructed a montage image which shows his position:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Bell.jpg)
The original source of this Bell in this image is the Skaggs photo here:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Skaggs3-vert.jpg)
Yes, I would say that Altgens was within a few feet of where I have him on the map. With this kind of triangulation the accuracy can never be perfect, but anywhere inside the dark circles should be about right. The more photos from different angles that I use the more accurate it will be, which is why I am especially confident about the Limo on Elm Street. We have 4 films, and several photos tracking the car at different points and from different angles in the crucial 15 seconds of the sequence.
In his early "3" photo you can judge the Altgens horizontal position relative to the road markings on Main Street. Due to perspective, the white lines converge to a vanishing point so we can judge his position reasonably accurately:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/altgens_3.jpg)
For the "Altgens 5" photo that you mention I have assumed he is in the same position because the crowd on the corner was relatively dense as seen from the Bronson photo:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/BronsonCrop5.jpg)
A good reference point I used for triangulating is the "No Parking" sign in front of the ramp entrance:
(https://i.ibb.co/swk9D0n/Altgens5-crop.png)
I also used this to position Orville Nix in a similar position as you can see that sign in his film too:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Gayle%20Nix%20Jackson%20Frames/0062.jpg)
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Here is the latest release of Motorcade 63 ( version 1.8 ):
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html)
As well as some fine tuning, I added the paths of: Rosemary Willis; Jay Skaggs; Emmett Hudson; and the man who ran up the knoll steps (I call him "Knoll Runner" in the animation).
Here are the new photos I added:
Bond 1
Grant
Moorman 4
Rickerby 0,1,2
Skaggs 4,5,6
Stoughton
A lot of people have mentioned the dictabelt evidence to me in recent weeks, so I added a large circle to show the time and place that the microphone is calculated to be by the HSCA scientists. It's quite nice to see in real time where this needs to be.
I had the chance to review Dale Myers work regarding the Towner film frame rate. Just to recap, in his 2007-2010 paper Myers said that the Towner film was recorded at 22.8 FPS, which is somewhat higher than was to be expected for a camera of that type. In the end my estimate of the frame rate was very close to his, so I favour his measurements much more than those suggesting that the camera was recording at 18-20 FPS. The full details of my workings are in appendix C.2 of the handbook:
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf)
The animation has been adjusted to account for this higher frame rate which speeds up the Presidential limo as it turns the corner onto Elm Street.
As always, thanks to everyone who has contacted me to help improve the animation. Cheers!
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Here is the latest release of Motorcade 63 ( version 1.8 ):
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html)
As well as some fine tuning, I added the paths of: Rosemary Willis; Jay Skaggs; Emmett Hudson; and the man who ran up the knoll steps (I call him "Knoll Runner" in the animation).
Here are the new photos I added:
Bond 1
Grant
Moorman 4
Rickerby 0,1,2
Skaggs 4,5,6
Stoughton
A lot of people have mentioned the dictabelt evidence to me in recent weeks, so I added a large circle to show the time and place that the microphone is calculated to be by the HSCA scientists. It's quite nice to see in real time where this needs to be.
I had the chance to review Dale Myers work regarding the Towner film frame rate. Just to recap, in his 2007-2010 paper Myers said that the Towner film was recorded at 22.8 FPS, which is somewhat higher than was to be expected for a camera of that type. In the end my estimate of the frame rate was very close to his, so I favour his measurements much more than those suggesting that the camera was recording at 18-20 FPS. The full details of my workings are in appendix C.2 of the handbook:
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf)
The animation has been adjusted to account for this higher frame rate which speeds up the Presidential limo as it turns the corner onto Elm Street.
As always, thanks to everyone who has contacted me to help improve the animation. Cheers!
Hi Mark, First allow me to congratulate you on your producing Motorcade 63, and thank you for spending what had to have been many many hours in researching and producing Motorcade 63.
Please allow me to focus on just one tenth of one second from 12:29: 59 to 12:30:00 .... You indicate that Tom Dillard snapped his photo of the face of the TSBD at 12:29:59, and the first shot from the window took place at 12:30:00 ....If I'm correct in reading your presentation then Tom Dillard would have had to have captured any gunman who would have been firing a rifle out of the window ( and the rifle definitely would have had to have been OUTSIDE the window) but Dillards photo shows no trace of a rifle or gunman behind that SE corner window.
P.S. I must be misreading .... Because Dillard didn't take a photo of the TSBD BEFORE the shots were fired
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Possible other ideas would be to color JFKs limo black, rather than the same color as all the other cars. This way you can see at a glance more easily what car is JFKs.
Also, the driver of the Queen Mary gave a quick swerve to the right when Clint Hill jumped off to run to JFK. The driver did this in order to move the front of the car out of Clints way so he could run more directly to JFK. I'm not sure how much he swerved the car as the films do not pick this up. It was only probably a slight swerve in terms of trying to represent it on your animation. Off hand i can't remember the source of this info, but i have come across it.
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Here is the latest release of Motorcade 63 (version 1.7):
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html)
As well as general tweaking to improve the accuracy (thanks to everyone who helped out this time!), I added a yellow triangle for the Dillard 2 photo (just seconds after the final shot was fired).
Perhaps more importantly, I added the Jack Weaver photo which I calculate as happening at the same time as Zapruder frame Z035 based on the triangulated position of the motorbike turning the corner:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Weaver.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z035.jpg)
If you look closely, you can see JFK's crooked elbow in Muchmore frame 267 as he pushes his hair back:
(https://i.ibb.co/NC5yKLw/muchmore267.jpg)
The full details are in appendix D.2 of the updated handbook. Crucially this spell of the Zapruder film was recorded while the Hughes and Muchmore films were also being recorded, which means I have been able to calculate the relative speeds that the films were all recorded at. For example if the Hughes film was recorded at 18 FPS, then the Zapruder and Muchmore film rates were 18.4 FPS. If the Hughes film was recorded at 19 FPS, then Zapruder and Muchmore were recording at 19.4 FPS. We can never know the exact rates, only the numerical relationships between them.
This correlation of different films was possible by matching unique events that were recorded in each of the films, and by doing split second comparisons. For example I was able to calculate the relative speeds of the Muchmore film and the Hughes film using the front blinking lights on the Presidential Limo. These observations prove that the Muchmore film was recorded fractionally faster than the Hughes film.
As always, if anyone disagrees with the animation, my calculations, or methodology, please let me know as I am keen to make the work as accurate as possible.
Hi Mark, If I'm reading the animation correctly.....The shots that are depicted from the SE corner of the TSBD at 12:30 pass right through the tree.... And Nobody could have fired a rifle through that tree and hit JFK.
FWIW... I completely agree with your animation at 12:30..... I created a scale cardboard model of Dealey Plaza many years ago and I used a small tube ( like a soda straw) to sight down from the sixth floor window to the point where JFK was struck by the bullets that blew out the back of his skull. I was stunned to find that the scale model tree that I had placed in my model obstructed the view of the Lincoln through the tube from the sixth floor window. Which is exactly what you depict in your animation.
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Hi Mark, First allow me to congratulate you on your producing Motorcade 63, and thank you for spending what had to have been many many hours in researching and producing Motorcade 63.
Please allow me to focus on just one tenth of one second from 12:29: 59 to 12:30:00 .... You indicate that Tom Dillard snapped his photo of the face of the TSBD at 12:29:59, and the first shot from the window took place at 12:30:00 ....If I'm correct in reading your presentation then Tom Dillard would have had to have captured any gunman who would have been firing a rifle out of the window ( and the rifle definitely would have had to have been OUTSIDE the window) but Dillards photo shows no trace of a rifle or gunman behind that SE corner window.
P.S. I must be misreading .... Because Dillard didn't take a photo of the TSBD BEFORE the shots were fired
Thanks Walt. It has been a lot of work, but it has been worth the effort as I now have a better grasp of the events.
If you check on the web page https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html) and look at the table of photos, the "Dillard 1" photo is listed as happening at 12:30:10.45. The yellow flash at 12:29:59 is where David Wiegman starts his film and captures the two cars in front of the TSBD:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/digitalcollections_baylor8.jpg)
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Possible other ideas would be to color JFKs limo black, rather than the same color as all the other cars. This way you can see at a glance more easily what car is JFKs.
Also, the driver of the Queen Mary gave a quick swerve to the right when Clint Hill jumped off to run to JFK. The driver did this in order to move the front of the car out of Clints way so he could run more directly to JFK. I'm not sure how much he swerved the car as the films do not pick this up. It was only probably a slight swerve in terms of trying to represent it on your animation. Off hand i can't remember the source of this info, but i have come across it.
Changing the colour of the limo is an interesting idea so I tested out some different colours and decided that the red was probably my favourite:
(https://i.ibb.co/DCY9j5n/mc63-2020-01-07-red-limo.png)
Black didn't really stand out, so I preferred a bolder primary colour.
A swerve of the Queen Mary is possible, so I shall have a look to see if I can find reference to one. As you say it's not a large swerve, perhaps mostly due to the bikes on the right hand side (Chaney and Jackson).
One certainty is that several of the Secret Service agents seemed to get off the car soon after Clint Hill. This is in the testimony and is partially seen in the Nix film as agents on both sides seem to jump off. They all get back on very quickly, but I think this delays the Queen Mary by a second or two as it departs Dealey Plaza.
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Thanks Walt. It has been a lot of work, but it has been worth the effort as I now have a better grasp of the events.
If you check on the web page https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html) and look at the table of photos, the "Dillard 1" photo is listed as happening at 12:30:10.45. The yellow flash at 12:29:59 is where David Wiegman starts his film and captures the two cars in front of the TSBD:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/digitalcollections_baylor8.jpg)
Hi Mark... If Wiegman took the photo before Dillard the there is something drastically wrong... Because the Weigman photo( 12:29:59 ) is clearly taken from the intersection of Houston and Elm. ...But Tom Dillard's photo's were taken from a spot about half way between Main and Elm on Houston. And that would mean that Dillard snapped his photos BEFORE the shots were fired.
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Hi Mark, If I'm reading the animation correctly.....The shots that are depicted from the SE corner of the TSBD at 12:30 pass right through the tree.... And Nobody could have fired a rifle through that tree and hit JFK.
FWIW... I completely agree with your animation at 12:30..... I created a scale cardboard model of Dealey Plaza many years ago and I used a small tube ( like a soda straw) to sight down from the sixth floor window to the point where JFK was struck by the bullets that blew out the back of his skull. I was stunned to find that the scale model tree that I had placed in my model obstructed the view of the Lincoln through the tube from the sixth floor window. Which is exactly what you depict in your animation.
Unfortunately the 2D nature of the animation is a little deceptive here as the gunman on the 6th floor had a clear view of the limo after Z210. After this time the sniper was able to take his aim carefully before the shot at Z313.
Here is a useful photo from the Warren Commission (CE 893 & 894) that shows the snipers view:
(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/pages/WH_Vol18_0052a.jpg)
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Unfortunately the 2D nature of the animation is a little deceptive here as the gunman on the 6th floor had a clear view of the limo after Z210. After this time the sniper was able to take his aim carefully before the shot at Z313.
Here is a useful photo from the Warren Commission (CE 893 & 894) that shows the snipers view:
(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/pages/WH_Vol18_0052a.jpg)
Mark, I constructed a scale model of Dealey..... That was not TWO dimensional.....When I looked down from the sixth floor window through the "soda straw"....I could not see JFK in the limo because the tree was blocking the view.
Here is a useful photo from the Warren Commission (CE 893 & 894) that shows the snipers view:
(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/pages/WH_Vol18_0052a.jpg)
If you study the photo...I believe that you'll find that the photo ( depicting the cross hairs on JFK's back) was taken from the Daltex building....
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Hi Mark... If Wiegman took the photo before Dillard the there is something drastically wrong... Because the Weigman photo( 12:29:59 ) is clearly taken from the intersection of Houston and Elm. ...But Tom Dillard's photo's were taken from a spot about half way between Main and Elm on Houston. And that would mean that Dillard snapped his photos BEFORE the shots were fired.
Dillard said that he took his photos just after Camera car #3 stopped on the corner from Houston to Elm Street. Here is his quote from the Warren Commission:
"He states that upon hearing the third shot the car in which he was riding was stopped almost in front of the Texas School Book Depository building. He states at that time he heard Bob Jackson of the Dallas times Herald exclaim "I see a rifle. It’s up there in the open window." Then Jackson pointed toward the Texas School Book Depository Building located at Elm and Houston Streets.
Mr. Dillard stated he looked upward toward the building and saw nothing resembling a rifle protruding from an open window. He states he did, however, take two photographs of the building at that time."
https://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/witnessMap/Dillard.htm (https://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/witnessMap/Dillard.htm)
This makes sense if you look at the photo as the angle shows he is almost exactly in line with the eastern side of the building on the right hand frame:
https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/45067/image-of-the-top-floors-of-the-texas-school-book-depository?ctx=61e7fb5e-726a-4b7d-b463-10f299217156&idx=26 (https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/45067/image-of-the-top-floors-of-the-texas-school-book-depository?ctx=61e7fb5e-726a-4b7d-b463-10f299217156&idx=26)
https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/22812/photograph-of-the-texas-school-book-depository-shortly-after?ctx=61e7fb5e-726a-4b7d-b463-10f299217156&idx=29 (https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/22812/photograph-of-the-texas-school-book-depository-shortly-after?ctx=61e7fb5e-726a-4b7d-b463-10f299217156&idx=29)
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Here is the latest release of Motorcade 63 (version 2.0):
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html)
I added these photos:
Powell
Dillard 2
Dillard 3
The animation now has a few more interesting witnesses and their movements:
Billy Lovelady
Gloria Calvery
Joe Marshall Smith
Edgar Smith
Welcome Barnett
Carolyn Walther
James Powell
The Franzen family
Amos Euins
Howard Brennan
I think Joe Marshall Smith might be the dark shadowy figure at the back of the Bothun 5 photo as the timing and position seems to be a close match.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Bothun.jpg)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Shadow_Man.jpg)
I slightly changed the route of the knoll runner and the black dog man, as Marilyn Sitzman said they were a couple who ran behind the pergola and were responsible for a bottle smashing onto the ground. This is probably what Lee Bowers described as a "commotion", as the narrative and timeline matches perfectly.
While studying the testimony of the Secret Service agents I noticed that Sam Kinney started his siren in the seconds following the head shot when his car was in the heart of Dealey Plaza. This was corroborated by other witnesses so I consider this to be a major challenge to the dictabelt evidence:
How could the microphone pick up gunshots but not a siren? We know that the microphone picked up sirens 2 minutes later on Stemmons freeway, so why not in Dealey Plaza as well?
More detail of this work is in the handbook section 9.1.1:
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf)
The audio from the dictabelt recordings has been added to the video along with some other sounds that the witnesses reported. Back in 1963 every witness would have heard each of these noises in a slightly different way. For example the siren would have been loud and dominant to those closest to Secret Service car. This might explain why the Secret Service agents and James Altgens didn't hear the final shot whereas those by the TSBD heard "three well spaced reverberating shots". The final gunshot would have been louder to them as it was closer, and the siren was further away so it was quieter.
I have updated the handbook regarding the timings of the shots (section 6). I have concluded that while most witnesses say they heard three shots, they are not talking about the same three shots: some say they were equidistant; and some say they were bunched on top of each other. In other words the "consensus" among witnesses regarding three shots is a numerical illusion which disappears upon close inspection.
Many thanks to the people who made suggestions for improvements, and also the researchers whose many decades of work I have used in the book and the video.
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I know its a ton of work, and kinda tricky, but could a similar timing video be done for the controversy surrounding Adams coming down the stairs?
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I know its a ton of work, and kinda tricky, but could a similar timing video be done for the controversy surrounding Adams coming down the stairs?
This is a good point Gerry. There are a lot of witnesses who gave testimony about their actions and movements in the minutes after the shooting. Taken in isolation they are all somewhat tricky to reconcile, but putting them together in a 3D view of the TSBD it may be possible to work out what was going on, and who was where at what time.
It would be harder to be confident of the results because there are no films or photos, but I'm sure with enough time and effort somebody could make progress on this part of the case by having an animated real time reconstruction that connects all of the evidence.
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Mark, as always nice job on your work. I know media stuff is time consuming to make as I've done it for my entire career. But it'd be cool if you could put a circle in the building up by the window and it'd be LHO then kind of move him around like he puts the rifle in the hiding place then goes down the stairs. I know you can't do depth [meaning showing him going from the 6th to 2nd floor] but kind of make it look like he's going downstairs and then he [supposedly] meets up with the cop in the lunchroom.
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Mark, as always nice job on your work. I know media stuff is time consuming to make as I've done it for my entire career. But it'd be cool if you could put a circle in the building up by the window and it'd be LHO then kind of move him around like he puts the rifle in the hiding place then goes down the stairs. I know you can't do depth [meaning showing him going from the 6th to 2nd floor] but kind of make it look like he's going downstairs and then he [supposedly] meets up with the cop in the lunchroom.
Indeed Michael, multimedia is very time consuming! In the case of animating the inside of the TSBD I suspect a whole new animation would be needed, utilising some kind of semi transparent 3D projection so you could see the people moving around and walking up and down the stairs.
I saw a still drawing depiction of this in Gerald Posner's Case Closed book, but it's impossible to judge plausibility with just a still image.
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I suspect a whole new animation would be needed, utilising some kind of semi transparent 3D projection so you could see the people moving around and walking up and down the stairs.
Why not consider a 2D animation of the Tippit shooting as a good place to start (rather than a complex 3D animation of the inside of the TSBD). Dale Myers has some good 3D sketches on his website of where the different eyewitnesses were so you'd have a head start from that aspect of things.
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Why not consider a 2D animation of the Tippit shooting as a good place to start (rather than a complex 3D animation of the inside of the TSBD). Dale Myers has some good 3D sketches on his website of where the different eyewitnesses were so you'd have a head start from that aspect of things.
I must confess I am not as knowledgeable about the Tippit crime scene as the Dealey Plaza crime scene. Having said that, you are right, a recreation of the Tippit scene on top of a 2D map should make things easier to understand regarding the movements of the witnesses and the cars.
Has Dale Myers not done an animated reconstruction of the Tippit scene?
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Has Dale Myers not done an animated reconstruction of the Tippit scene?
I dont think he has. All i've seen on his website are still 3D images.
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I have just published version 2.1 of Motorcade 63 here:
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html)
As always thanks to those who have taken the time to share their thoughts and help me make the work better with each iteration.
The video only has a few minor changes, such as the dictabelt audio. Having studied both channels I have concluded that the so called crosstalk is the most reliable sync point about a minute or so after the shots were fired. The detail of this synchronization is in the handbook appendix D.3 where I have itemised the second by second events on both channels relative to the animation clock:
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf)
Although the channels are clearly discontinuous at various early points, I think that in the animation around 12:30:00 both channels are recording continuously in real time from when Jesse Curry mentions approaching the triple underpass. This is seemingly correct judging from the various timed announcements within those few minutes.
The big effort I put into this release was an exhaustive survey of 283 witnesses who gave information in statements or interviews regarding the shots that were fired. The full survey data is publicly available here:
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_dpws.csv (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_dpws.csv)
A full visualisation of this data is available in the handbook in appendix F (page 120). I have also taken this opportunity to reorganise the handbook so all of the analysis of theories is done relative to the survey results.
In some areas the witnesses are collectively fairly certain about what happened in Dealey Plaza, but in other areas they are sharply divided. For example 73% of witnesses heard three shots fired in total, and 75% of reliable witnesses are certain that just a single shot was fired around or before Z225-Z240 when the first unambiguous effects of gunfire are seen in the Zapruder film. By contrast the witnesses are very split on these issues:
- 58% of reliable witnesses are certain that no more than one shot was fired around the time of Z313, whereas 32% are certain that a second shot was also fired around this time.
- 54% of reliable witnesses are certain that no shots were fired after Z313, whereas 38% are certain that at least one shot was fired after Z313.
- 59% of reliable witnesses thought that at least two shots were bunched together somewhere during the shooting, whereas 41% thought the shots were evenly spaced with no bunches.
In summary, the most reliable witnesses are evenly split regarding when the third shot was fired: either it was within a second or two of Z313; or it was fired 3-6 seconds after Z313. If both sets of witnesses are correct then there were at least four shots fired that day.
Hopefully researchers will find this quantitative and qualitative work useful in evaluating the many theories in this case.
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Not a valid vimeo URL
This is a pretty amazing piece of work. I found this over at the (un)Education Forum. I reached out to him and told him he should insert at least Lovelady and Frazier up on the steps of the building because of the *possibility* it may be Oswald up there. Some of the so-called "experts" over there (you know who you are...or maybe not LOL) are already overwhelming him with "48 FPS and not this many FPS." He's already like, "Let me make sure I understand you."
LOL
It's too bad he has the number, direction, and timing of the shots all screwed up.
-- MWT ;)
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I've just published version 2.2 of Motorcade 63, the reference handbook, and the witness survey (which now lists over 400 witnesses):
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html)
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf)
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_dpws.csv (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_dpws.csv)
I added Virgie Baker to the animation as she gave evidence regarding the first shot hitting the road (corroborated by Royce Skelton). The animation proves this could only have occurred during Z175-Z215 as the cars blocked her view of the bullet impact zone outside those two seconds (full details are in the handbook appendix E.5). This matches the cluster of evidence that the first shot was fired near Z185, such as John Connally who heard a shot fired two seconds before he was hit around Z225. This timing is corroborated by several witnesses such as Gloria Calvery, Karen Westbrook, Phil Willis, and A.J. Millican who were all very close to the Presidential limo when the first shot was fired.
After nearly two years of sitting on the fence regarding this case I have concluded that there were probably two gunman firing shots that day. It's the only way to properly explain all of the evidence without leaving loose ends. Especially notable are the pair of shots fired between Z185 and Z225 which could not have both been fired from the gun found in the TSBD in that short space of time.
If you try to shoehorn the evidence into a single gunman firing just three shots then too many corroborated witnesses statements have to be discarded. Witnesses in this case do make mistakes but typically they are due to a lack of awareness (such as not hearing a shot due to being distracted) or errors of misinterpretation (like Jean Hill thinking she saw a white dog in the limo rather than white flowers). By contrast, when so many witnesses independently corroborate each other with detailed statements given very soon after the assassination, I accept what they say as having some basis in fact.
If anyone spots errors or omissions feel free to let me know as I'm always happy to improve and fix things!
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I've just published version 2.2 of Motorcade 63, the reference handbook, and the witness survey (which now lists over 400 witnesses):
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html)
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf)
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_dpws.csv (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_dpws.csv)
I added Virgie Baker to the animation as she gave evidence regarding the first shot hitting the road (corroborated by Royce Skelton). The animation proves this could only have occurred during Z175-Z215 as the cars blocked her view of the bullet impact zone outside those two seconds (full details are in the handbook appendix E.5).
Did Skelton mean viewer left or car's left (driver-side)?
This matches the cluster of evidence that the first shot was fired near Z185, such as John Connally who heard a shot fired two seconds before he was hit around Z225. This timing is corroborated by several witnesses such as Gloria Calvery, Karen Westbrook, Phil Willis, and A.J. Millican who were all very close to the Presidential limo when the first shot was fired.
After nearly two years of sitting on the fence regarding this case I have concluded that there were probably two gunman firing shots that day. It's the only way to properly explain all of the evidence without leaving loose ends. Especially notable are the pair of shots fired between Z185 and Z225 which could not have both been fired from the gun found in the TSBD in that short space of time.
If you try to shoehorn the evidence into a single gunman firing just three shots then too many corroborated witnesses statements have to be discarded. Witnesses in this case do make mistakes but typically they are due to a lack of awareness (such as not hearing a shot due to being distracted) or errors of misinterpretation (like Jean Hill thinking she saw a white dog in the limo rather than white flowers). By contrast, when so many witnesses independently corroborate each other with detailed statements given very soon after the assassination, I accept what they say as having some basis in fact.
The witness statements are generally unreliable and any well-meaning reconciliation usually leads to confirmation bias, no matter how immune we figure we are. The Zapruder film has just two bullet strikes in it: the head shot at Z312-313 and the double-wounding in the early-Z220s.
If anyone spots errors or omissions feel free to let me know as I'm always happy to improve and fix things!
Maybe not an error, but I always see, starting with Thompson in 1967, Bower's reference to a "wall" taken to be the pergola's East Shelter.
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/firstshot/bowers-masonry-wall.jpg)
Most of the car disappears from Bowers' view about the Z150s. There are then people between Bowers and the top area of the car until it goes behind the pergola. My model doesn't show the trees and spectators, and so seems more open-spaced. I only have a rough estimate of Bowers viewing position. Maybe Bowers meant the low wall extending from the shelter to the street.
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One thing that I notice is that this animation shows Officer McLain, across from Officer Baker, nowhere near the intersection of Houston and Elm, at the time of the first shot, as predicted by the acoustic experts. This animation is correct in this respect. This prediction by the acoustic experts has proven false. There is a big gap between the four motorcycles riding just behind the limousine and the next two motorcycles, Officer McLain and Baker, with location of alleged microphone right in the middle of this gap, a few feet before Elm Street.
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Did Skelton mean viewer left or car's left (driver-side)?
The witness statements are generally unreliable and any well-meaning reconciliation usually leads to confirmation bias, no matter how immune we figure we are. The Zapruder film has just two bullet strikes in it: the head shot at Z312-313 and the double-wounding in the early-Z220s.
Maybe not an error, but I always see, starting with Thompson in 1967, Bower's reference to a "wall" taken to be the pergola's East Shelter.
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/firstshot/bowers-masonry-wall.jpg)
Most of the car disappears from Bowers' view about the Z150s. There are then people between Bowers and the top area of the car until it goes behind the pergola. My model doesn't show the trees and spectators, and so seems more open-spaced. I only have a rough estimate of Bowers viewing position. Maybe Bowers meant the low wall extending from the shelter to the street.
Skelton gave several statements, but he said this to the FBI on December 17, 1963:
"Mr Skelton noticed that as an open limousine turned on Elm Street, it had moved approximately one hundred feet at which time he noticed dust spray up from the street in front of the car on the driver's side."
This is helpful as it corroborates the statement Virgie Baker gave later to the Warren Commission regarding the first shot timing, and location of the road where the bullet struck.
I completely agree with you Jerry, the Zapruder film only shows two obvious times of gunshots, 5 seconds apart. Hunting down the exact moments of the other shot(s) is tricky, but without an audio recording we sadly have no choice but to parse the witness statements and try to make sense of the many contradictions. As you say it's very easy to be led astray through misinterpreting a statement so I'm always grateful to hear an alternative point of view to help avoid this trap.
Lee Bowers is very helpful regarding the shots. He gave a few interviews before his untimely death in 1966, with this quote from a Mark Lane interview:
"Directly in line - uh - there - of course is - uh - there leading toward the Triple Underpass there is a curved decorative wall - I guess you'd call it - it's not a solid wall but it is part of the - uh - park..."
Dale Myers helpfully mentions this in reference [114] here:
https://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/badgeman_4.htm (https://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/badgeman_4.htm)
By saying the wall is curved and not solid he is referring to the pergola which is curved and has holes in it. Therefore my interpretation is that he failed to hear any shot or shots before Z250, after which the Presidential limo disappeared behind the pergola, and he then heard three shots fired. Helpfully he said the final shot was around the time it re-emerged which seems to be around Z390-Z400 which helps pin the final shot several seconds after the head shot.
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One thing that I notice is that this animation shows Officer McLain, across from Officer Baker, nowhere near the intersection of Houston and Elm, at the time of the first shot, as predicted by the acoustic experts. This animation is correct in this respect. This prediction by the acoustic experts has proven false. There is a big gap between the four motorcycles riding just behind the limousine and the next two motorcycles, Officer McLain and Baker, with location of alleged microphone right in the middle of this gap, a few feet before Elm Street.
Indeed Joe, the position of McLain contradicts the HSCA acoustics analysis. The other important point which proves that the microphone wasn't in Dealey Plaza is that it failed to pick up any sirens blaring after the shots. Many witnesses reported that a siren started very soon after the head shot which does not appear at all on the dictabelt audio. The dictabelt is a red herring!
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Further, his animation has already proven, at least for me, and debunked one of the more ridiculous theories of the case - that the Zapruder film, and then the Nix and Muchmore films as well as photos, have been altered or frames have been removed.
Hi Michael,
Great thread.
I wonder if you would expand on this point as I believe it is of great importance in this case to separate discussion between 'the alterationists' and those who believe the various video/photographic evidence are a faithful representation of what occurred that day.
Between those who want to understand what actually happened that day and those who participate in this for their own ends.
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Hi Michael,
Great thread.
I wonder if you would expand on this point as I believe it is of great importance in this case to separate discussion between 'the alterationists' and those who believe the various video/photographic evidence are a faithful representation of what occurred that day.
Between those who want to understand what actually happened that day and those who participate in this for their own ends.
Hi Dan. While I was studying the films and photos for the animation I didn't notice any contradictions between any of the photos and the films so I assume they are indeed a faithful representation of what happened. Also, the resulting animation smoothly moves the various cars and bikes which suggests there were no gaps or jumps in the continuity of what was recorded. If a person running, or a car or bike suddenly speeded up or slowed down I would be suspicious, but everything seems to fit.
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Thanks to Mark for his efforts on this animation. I find it fascinating and eerie. One of the films shot shortly after the shooting shows a large number of spectators running up the grassy incline toward the fence. Not sure when this occurs, but it would be good to include it if it fits within the time parameters of your animation.
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Thanks to Mark for his efforts on this animation. I find it fascinating and eerie. One of the films shot shortly after the shooting shows a large number of spectators running up the grassy incline toward the fence. Not sure when this occurs, but it would be good to include it if it fits within the time parameters of your animation.
Thanks Jim. The running up the knoll by the spectators seems to start after officer Haygood gets off his bike and starts running up the knoll towards the fence and then the railway bridge over the underpass. Here is the Willis 6 photo about 80 seconds after the head shot showing Haygood starting his run with the knoll completely empty:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/willis06.jpg)
Cabluck 2 taken about 8 seconds later shows some teenage boys running across in front of the pergola with Haygood in the distance:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/6fed8642746e10dee644a50c2eda1f14.jpg)
Then we have the Bond 6 photo taken about 100 seconds after the head shot which shows the knoll with all of the people running across it towards Haygood who is scrambling up the wall.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/bond6_Large.jpg)
Lastly we have the Cancellare 3 photo 116 seconds after the head shot showing all of the boys and other curious spectators have clustered around Haygood on top of the wall:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/CancellareUnger.jpg)
All of these photos are depicted in the animation, and are shown as yellow flashes with the text in the top left explaining each of them (just press the pause button to catch them). The are some later films depicting an even larger swarm of people on the knoll but this was several minutes later and not captured in the animation. When I completed the animation I was surprised it took well over a minute for people to charge up the knoll, but this project has been full of surprises for me as I uncovered the exact timing sequence of events!
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Thanks Jim. The running up the knoll by the spectators seems to start after officer Haygood gets off his bike and starts running up the knoll towards the fence and then the railway bridge over the underpass. Here is the Willis 6 photo about 80 seconds after the head shot showing Haygood starting his run with the knoll completely empty:
Cabluck 2 taken about 8 seconds later shows some teenage boys running across in front of the pergola with Haygood in the distance:
Then we have the Bond 6 photo taken about 100 seconds after the head shot which shows the knoll with all of the people running across it towards Haygood who is scrambling up the wall.
Lastly we have the Cancellare 3 photo 116 seconds after the head shot showing all of the boys and other curious spectators have clustered around Haygood on top of the wall:
All of these photos are depicted in the animation, and are shown as yellow flashes with the text in the top left explaining each of them (just press the pause button to catch them). The are some later films depicting an even larger swarm of people on the knoll but this was several minutes later and not captured in the animation. When I completed the animation I was surprised it took well over a minute for people to charge up the knoll, but this project has been full of surprises for me as I uncovered the exact timing sequence of events!
"Bowers and others saw a motorcycle officer dismount hurriedly and
come running up the incline on the north side of Elm Street. The
motorcycle officer, Clyde A. Haygood, saw no one running from the
railroad yards."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
-- Warren Report
While the Report correctly identifies Haygood as the running policeman, they are probably wrong about Bowers having seen Haygood.
Bowers: At the time of the shooting there seemed to be
some commotion, and immediately following there was
a motorcycle policeman who shot nearly all of the way
to the top of the incline.
Ball: On his motorcycle?
Bowers: Yes.
Ball: Did he come by way of Elm Street?
Bowers: He was part of the motorcade and had left it for
some reason, which I did not know.
Ball: He came up---
Bowers: He came almost to the top and I believe
abandoned his motorcycle for a moment and then
got on it and proceeded, I don't know
Ball: How did he get up?
Bowers: He just shot up over the curb and up.
Ball: He didn't come then by way of Ell, which dead
ends there?
Bowers: No; he left the motorcade and came up the
incline on the motorcycle.
Ball: Was his motorcycle directed toward any
particular people?
Bowers: He came up into this area where there are
some trees, and where I had described the two men
were in the general vicinity of this.
Bowers is describing the short run by Officer Hargis to the corner of the retaining wall. Only Hargis didn't ride his motorcycle there; Bowers pictured that in his mind. It would be impossible for Bowers to see to where Haygood dismounted and ran up the knoll. Maybe after Haygood arrived at the abutment. Dale Myers determined that the "two men" Bowers refers to were in the area between the pergola's west shelter and the wooden fence, so Bowers could have seen Hargis' white helmet as he got to the retaining wall.
Haygood was a block away when he heard three shots. He passed the Newman family who were on the ground. He said: "Some of them were pointing back up to the railroad yard, and a couple of people were headed back up that way." When he returned to his cycle, he was told the shots came from the Depository.
"A motorcycle policeman, Clyde A. Haygood, dismounted in
the street and ran up the incline. He stated that he saw no
one running from the railroad yards adjacent to the overpass.
Subsequently, at 12:37 p.m., Haygood reported that the shots
had come from the Texas School Book Depository Building."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
-- Warren Report
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/6fed8642746e10dee644a50c2eda1f14.jpg)
The man in the suit running on the sidewalk is NBC reporter Robert MacNeil. Richard Trask in "Pictures of the Pain" thought it might have been Dallas Morning News reporter Kent Biffle. MacNeil was in the same Press Bus as the photographer, Harry Calbuck, who was working for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.
James Altgens is standing at the left edge of the Calbuck photo. This would be after he's taken his photo of Zapruder and Sitzman down off the pedestal, and himself having crossed the street.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Alt8TraskUnger.jpg)
-
"Bowers and others saw a motorcycle officer dismount hurriedly and
come running up the incline on the north side of Elm Street. The
motorcycle officer, Clyde A. Haygood, saw no one running from the
railroad yards."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
-- Warren Report
While the Report correctly identifies Haygood as the running policeman, they are probably wrong about Bowers having seen Haygood.
Bowers: At the time of the shooting there seemed to be
some commotion, and immediately following there was
a motorcycle policeman who shot nearly all of the way
to the top of the incline.
Ball: On his motorcycle?
Bowers: Yes.
Ball: Did he come by way of Elm Street?
Bowers: He was part of the motorcade and had left it for
some reason, which I did not know.
Ball: He came up---
Bowers: He came almost to the top and I believe
abandoned his motorcycle for a moment and then
got on it and proceeded, I don't know
Ball: How did he get up?
Bowers: He just shot up over the curb and up.
Ball: He didn't come then by way of Ell, which dead
ends there?
Bowers: No; he left the motorcade and came up the
incline on the motorcycle.
Ball: Was his motorcycle directed toward any
particular people?
Bowers: He came up into this area where there are
some trees, and where I had described the two men
were in the general vicinity of this.
Bowers is describing the short run by Officer Hargis to the corner of the retaining wall. Only Hargis didn't ride his motorcycle there; Bowers pictured that in his mind. It would be impossible for Bowers to see to where Haygood dismounted and ran up the knoll. Maybe after Haygood arrived at the abutment. Dale Myers determined that the "two men" Bowers refers to were in the area between the pergola's west shelter and the wooden fence, so Bowers could have seen Hargis' white helmet as he got to the retaining wall.
Haygood was a block away when he heard three shots. He passed the Newman family who were on the ground. He said: "Some of them were pointing back up to the railroad yard, and a couple of people were headed back up that way." When he returned to his cycle, he was told the shots came from the Depository.
"A motorcycle policeman, Clyde A. Haygood, dismounted in
the street and ran up the incline. He stated that he saw no
one running from the railroad yards adjacent to the overpass.
Subsequently, at 12:37 p.m., Haygood reported that the shots
had come from the Texas School Book Depository Building."
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
-- Warren Report
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/6fed8642746e10dee644a50c2eda1f14.jpg)
The man in the suit running on the sidewalk is NBC reporter Robert MacNeil. Richard Trask in "Pictures of the Pain" thought it might have been Dallas Morning News reporter Kent Biffle. MacNeil was in the same Press Bus as the photographer, Harry Calbuck, who was working for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.
James Altgens is standing at the left edge of the Calbuck photo. This would be after he's taken his photo of Zapruder and Sitzman down off the pedestal, and himself having crossed the street.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Alt8TraskUnger.jpg)
As far as I can tell by the photos and films both Hargis and Haygood left their bikes on Elm Street, so I think this must be a false memory when Bowers refers to a bike going up the incline.
I agree with Dale Myers, Lee Bowers could see right down between the pergola and the steps with Emmett Hudson and the other guy beside him (probably F Lee Mudd). I suspect that the "commotion" Bowers refers to is the third guy on the steps who runs away and then drops the glass bottle that Marilyn Sitzman heard smash just after the Zapruder film stops.
Hargis and his bike could not have been seen by Bowers as the pergola would have hidden them so I would guess that when Haygood stopped and ran up towards the bridge Bowers would have seen this. The Couch film shows Haygood near the storm drain, which means Bowers could have seen him through the gap between the pergola and the fence as per the Allen photo:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/20160719-211303.JPG)
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Allenphoto.jpg)
It's possible to prove that Hargis took less than 15 seconds to get from his bike to the lamppost using the Bell and Wiegman films as they both overlap and show Charles Hester leaping into the pergola, which means Hargis didn't ever go up to the retaining wall. Firstly we have this frame which occurs about 11 seconds into the original NBC broadcast of the Wiegman film on the day of the assassination:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/digitalcollections_baylor3.jpg)
This proves that Hargis is standing by his bike and has yet to run across the road. About 15 seconds later (the Wiegman film is continuously filmed for about 26 seconds in the NBC broadcast) Charles Hester leaps into the pergola which is also caught by the Bell film which shows Hargis is now at the lamppost:
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Bell_Compilation_3.jpg)
Ergo Hargis has taken less than 15 seconds to get from his bike to the lamppost which proves he had no time to run up the knoll steps or grass. In my animation I have Hargis taking 10 seconds to go from his bike to the lamppost and his peak speed is 8 MPH. The Paschall film also overlaps this timeframe and shows no sign of Hargis on the grass near the retaining wall, just the Newmans lying down and Hargis's bike (Hargis and the lamppost are both hidden by the peristyle column):
(https://i.ibb.co/fqgnpB4/Paschall-f-00074.png)
You can also see the National Press Pool car passing, and Zapruder getting off the pedestal which I have synchronized in the animation.
The misunderstanding about Hargis and the retaining wall comes from his testimony:
Mr. STERN. And did you run up the incline on your side of Elm Street?
Mr. HARGIS. Yes, sir; I ran to the light post, and I ran up to this kind of a little wall, brick wall up there to see if I could get a better look on the bridge, and, of course, I was looking all around that place by that time. I knew it couldn’t have come from the county courthouse because that place was swarming with deputy sheriffs over there.
He says he ran to the lamppost which is proven by the films. However, he creates ambiguity when he says "I ran up to this kind of a little wall, brick wall up there", as you may assume he means he went within touching distance of a wall. I think he means about level with the wall which is what the lamppost is relative to the retaining wall to the west or the smaller garden wall to the north:
(https://i.ibb.co/bNrjqbh/Hargis-walls.png)
The clue that he was nowhere near the retaining wall is this:
Mr. HARGIS. So, no ; I don’t remember any picket fence.
As a side note the Wiegman film was actually shown by NBC at too slow a frame rate and was about 20% too slow. Adjusting for this the 15 seconds mentioned above is reduced to 12 seconds. I explain this in detail in the handbook appendix C.1:
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63/mc63_handbook.pdf)
This is all a bit fiddly to explain but I think all of the evidence matches up, with the only complication being bad witness memories or ambiguous statements. Let me know if anything I said isn't clear, or if you disagree.
-
I think your rationale about Hargis reaching just the lamp-post makes perfect sense.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Bothun.jpg)
It's possible Bowers saw Hargis' white helmet through the pergola openings. He seemed to think the figure had left the motorcade immediately. Maybe he saw Hargis raise himself up from the pagvement to the sidewalk and thought he had "shot up over the curb and up" on his motorcycle. Bowers may have then seen Haygood on the abutment and assumed it was the same man he saw earlier through the openings.
(http://www.toronto.hm/Bowerstower.jpg)
It's not possible for Bowers to see Haygood where he got off his cycle. And the wooden fence was a factor as Haygood raced towards the abutment by the bridge. The only thing I can think of is that Haygood ran halfway-or-so towards the wooden fence corner before veering to his left to run to the abutment. Then Bowers would have seen his white helmet.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/mURI_temp_764b3842.jpg)
You can scale your photos down using the Toggle View button (https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/toggle-view.png) and code:
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
[img width=512 height=407]https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Bothun.jpg[/img]
-
I think your rationale about Hargis reaching just the lamp-post makes perfect sense.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Bothun.jpg)
It's possible Bowers saw Hargis' white helmet through the pergola openings. He seemed to think the figure had left the motorcade immediately. Maybe he saw Hargis raise himself up from the pagvement to the sidewalk and thought he had "shot up over the curb and up" on his motorcycle. Bowers may have then seen Haygood on the abutment and assumed it was the same man he saw earlier through the openings.
(http://www.toronto.hm/Bowerstower.jpg)
It's not possible for Bowers to see Haygood where he got off his cycle. And the wooden fence was a factor as Haygood raced towards the abutment by the bridge. The only thing I can think of is that Haygood ran halfway-or-so towards the wooden fence corner before veering to his left to run to the abutment. Then Bowers would have seen his white helmet.
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/mURI_temp_764b3842.jpg)
You can scale your photos down using the Toggle View button (https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/toggle-view.png) and code:
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
[img width=512 height=407]https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Bothun.jpg[/img]
I think you are right about Bowers seeing through the gaps in the pergola because the Bothun photo allows us to see the Bowers tower, so it's logical that someone in the tower can look straight back and see what is going on on Elm Street.
The Bothun photo also shows Haygood just coming into the frame so the continuity is ideal for Bowers to confuse the two policemen with each other. When Haygood makes his run and is then standing on top of the bridge in full view Bowers would have connected the two events as they would have been just 30-60 seconds apart. Even with binoculars I doubt Bowers could tell the two policemen apart.
Thanks for the tip about scaling images, I shall use that in the future. As a test I edited my previous message to be more user friendly. Cheers!
-
I've just published version 2.3 of Motorcade 63:
https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html (https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html)
There are no major changes this time, just small improvements in various areas. However, I have included a second animation at the bottom of the above web page which explores the ideas that were first established by the HSCA acoustics scientists regarding the position of a microphone in Dealey Plaza (it was originally suspected as being on the bike ridden by HB McLain). Over the last 20 years or so these ideas have been refined by others such as Don Thomas, and recently explored by Josiah Thompson in his recent book "Last Second In Dallas". Acoustic science is a somewhat dry and esoteric topic, so I thought it would be useful to have an animated version of this scenario so all researchers can see in real time what the practical implications are regarding the motorcade vehicles and timing issues.
In the main animation I have placed McLain in the positions established by the Hughes film (circa Z150), the Dorman film (circa Z410), and also the DCA film when McLain was on Main Street just before entering Dealey Plaza (and briefly by the Paschall film a few seconds later). However, in the HSCA scenario I have McLain's bike travelling around Dealey Plaza to be consistent with the acoustics analysis, and also consistent with the photographic record. Several important issues regarding continuity arose during this work:
- I had to assume that the bike we see in the Hughes film at Z150, and the Dorman film at Z410, was officer JW Courson (nothing else seems to fit the evidence). In doing this both McLain and Courson moved forward by some 100-200 feet from the positions established by other earlier photographs in the motorcade such as this Dillard photo which shows McLain (bike id 352) near the camera cars:
(https://i.ibb.co/10JdsgW/mclain-baker-motorcade.jpg)
- This position was maintained just before McLain entered Dealey Plaza as proven by the DCA film:
(https://i.ibb.co/2NhYTr7/Mc-Lain-DCA.png)
- At the end of the Hughes film segment where the Presidential limo had just turned onto Elm Street, we see Houston Street without any bike visible:
(https://i.ibb.co/bFGFQCy/Hughes-Houston-End.png)
- This was about 3.2 seconds before the Zapruder film restarted at Z133. Using the shot timings from the dictabelt where the Z313 shot was fired from the grassy knoll, I have put McLain in the position to record the first gunshot at Z175 which is 2.3 seconds after Z133, or 5.5 seconds after the Hughes film frame above was recorded. The animation assumes that McLain was just to the right of this film frame and sped up as he travelled the 200 feet in those 5.5 seconds (which is an average speed of 36.4 ft/sec or 24.8 MPH). The animation also includes acceleration and deceleration near the street corners which pushes up the peak speed of McLain's bike to about 30 MPH.
- I'm not aware of any contradictions between this animated scenario and the known photos and films taken during the time period studied, but if anyone thinks there is a contradiction please let me know.
Although this new animated HSCA scenario is theoretically possible, with nothing in the photographic record to contradict it, the speed of McLain's bike is completely preposterous due to the rapid acceleration along Houston Street (why would he be motivated to do such a thing?). By contrast, the main animation has the bike moving around Dealey Plaza at its usual speed of 5-10 MPH and in close proximity to the camera cars, which is consistent with the earlier stages of the motorcade (and also in formation with Marrion Baker to McLain's right, with Courson in formation with Clyde Haygood further back).
As always, I'm happy to receive constructive feedback from others so I can improve the work and fix errors or omissions. I'm especially interested in hearing from people who still believe the HSCA acoustics work is correct, but think that my animation positions for McLain are wrong (or if the microphone was on a different vehicle).
For a historic view of these issues, here are web links to very thorough articles written by Don Thomas and Dale Myers from 2008-2010:
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_The_Bike_With_the_Mike.html (https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_The_Bike_With_the_Mike.html)
https://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/11/jfk-assassination-acoustics-and.html (https://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/11/jfk-assassination-acoustics-and.html)