JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: James Hackerott on November 12, 2019, 06:07:21 PM
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One of three major goals of my recent visit to Dealey Plaza was studying the Jimmy Darnell film version held at the Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza. Along with films by Mal Couch, Cook/Cooper and the DCA films (John Martin Jr. sequences). I hope to establish the sequencing and identity of the Darnell scenes post assassination. In particular I want to use the scenes behind the fence to map Darnell's path with the help of the John Martin film, Robert Hughes film, Don Cook (Cooper film), Jim Murray photos, and Cancellare photos. I also viewed the museum's version of the Bell film used in the NatGeo "The Lost Bullet" TV production, because I could.
To view and study these holdings of the museum a simple form was submitted to the museum's Reading Room which requests the scope for the visit and an appointment time. No problem there. I soon received a response from Krishna Shenoy (Librarian/Archivist) accepting my request. Krishna was extremely friendly, helpful and patient with all aspects of the process. One is provided paper, soft lead pencils and access to a pencil sharpener. No recording devices are allowed, other than the paper and pencil.
All of the above films are digitized on disc and handled only by the librarian. The viewer has a keyboard, mouse and 20" or so flat screen monitor. All of this is good news. Unfortunately, the software to view the files is the open-source VLC player. That software is fine for casual viewing, but is woefully inadequate for frame-by-frame study. It was possible to stop the viewing close to a desired frame, and if lucky, could single frame forward (only) until the software froze. There is no zoom ability. And of course, no frame grabs were permissible. Which left this viewer the task of unskilled sketching frames of interest.
I spent nearly four hours on the Darnell film the first day. I was given time the next day to continue as needed. I then spent maybe an hour on the Couch, Cooper, Dallas Cinema Association (DCA ) and Robert Mark Bell films. And another hour or so back to the Darnell film. I generated about 17 pages of notes (more like scribbles) and sketches. A brief summary of those films follows:
Jimmy Darnell
Much clearer then most or all of the video reproductions which we are familiar. There are several scenes I've never seen before. I plan to report my observations in parts. Part 1 will be while Darnell is south of Elm street. Part 2 will attempt to describe sequences in the Rail/Parking areas. Part 3 will deal with the sequences after he returns to the plaza. Part 4 special interest.
Malcolm (Mal) Couch
I was looking for a film clip taken from the top of the knoll four to five minutes after the assassination. Some researchers assign it to Darnell, but it was not in Darnell, or Couch either. I'm thinking it probably was filmed by Jim Underwood after he filmed and followed the crowd climbing the knoll steps..
Don Cook/Cooper - Don Cook filmed the scenes. Cooper compiled scenes as a jumbled film.
Its about the same quality as the best versions found on various DVDs. Nothing new to me.
Dallas Cinema Association, DCA Films
In general, overall about the same quality as Robert Groden's DVD version. However the museum's John Martin Jr. sequences were essentially black! Useless.
Robert Bell
Nice. I was looking for and found a good frame showing the machinery half a mile or so west of the Triple Under Pass. It's something used for sand/gravel I think. A screen grab would've been nice.
End of Introduction
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One of three major goals of my recent visit to Dealey Plaza was studying the Jimmy Darnell film version held at the Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza. Along with films by Mal Couch, Cook/Cooper and the DCA films (John Martin Jr. sequences). I hope to establish the sequencing and identity of the Darnell scenes post assassination. In particular I want to use the scenes behind the fence to map Darnell's path with the help of the John Martin film, Robert Hughes film, Don Cook (Cooper film), Jim Murray photos, and Cancellare photos. I also viewed the museum's version of the Bell film used in the NatGeo "The Lost Bullet" TV production, because I could.
To view and study these holdings of the museum a simple form was submitted to the museum's Reading Room which requests the scope for the visit and an appointment time. No problem there. I soon received a response from Krishna Shenoy (Librarian/Archivist) accepting my request. Krishna was extremely friendly, helpful and patient with all aspects of the process. One is provided paper, soft lead pencils and access to a pencil sharpener. No recording devices are allowed, other than the paper and pencil.
All of the above films are digitized on disc and handled only by the librarian. The viewer has a keyboard, mouse and 20" or so flat screen monitor. All of this is good news. Unfortunately, the software to view the files is the open-source VLC player. That software is fine for casual viewing, but is woefully inadequate for frame-by-frame study. It was possible to stop the viewing close to a desired frame, and if lucky, could single frame forward (only) until the software froze. There is no zoom ability. And of course, no frame grabs were permissible. Which left this viewer the task of unskilled sketching frames of interest.
I spent nearly four hours on the Darnell film the first day. I was given time the next day to continue as needed. I then spent maybe an hour on the Couch, Cooper, Dallas Cinema Association (DCA ) and Robert Bell films. And another hour or so back to the Darnell film. I generated about 17 pages of notes (more like scribbles) and sketches. A brief summary of those films follows:
Jimmy Darnell
Much clearer then most or all of the video reproductions which we are familiar. There are several scenes I've never seen before. I plan to report my observations in parts. Part 1 will be while Darnell is south of Elm street. Part 2 will attempt to describe sequences in the Rail/Parking areas. Part 3 will deal with the sequences after he returns to the plaza. Part 4 special interest.
Malcolm (Mal) Couch
I was looking for a film clip taken from the top of the knoll four to five minutes after the assassination. Some researchers assign it to Darnell, but it was not in Darnell, or Couch either. I'm thinking it probably was filmed by Jim Underwood after he filmed and followed the crowd climbing the knoll steps..
Don Cook/Cooper - Don Cook filmed the scenes. Cooper compiled scenes as a jumbled film.
Its about the same quality as the best versions found on various DVDs. Nothing new to me.
Dallas Cinema Association, DCA Films
In general, overall about the same quality as Robert Groden's DVD version. However the museum's John Martin Jr. sequences were essentially black! Useless.
Robert Bell
Nice. I was looking for and found a good frame showing the machinery half a mile or so west of the Triple Under Pass. It's something used for sand/gravel I think. A screen grab would've been nice.
End of Introduction
JAMES - Did the Bell Film you viewed show the images between the sprocket holes?
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JAMES - Did the Bell Film you viewed show the images between the sprocket holes?
Royell,
Gosh, I really don't remember. I asked for the version used in "The Lost Bullet" and I think that is what I viewed. I was getting really short on time so did not get to study the entire film as I would have liked. I'll email Krishna and see if she will check that out. If I don't get back in a few days just bug me.
James
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Royell,
Gosh, I really don't remember. I asked for the version used in "The Lost Bullet" and I think that is what I viewed. I was getting really short on time so did not get to study the entire film as I would have liked. I'll email Krishna and see if she will check that out. If I don't get back in a few days just bug me.
James
"The Lost Bullet" showed Portions of the Bell Film with images between the sprocket holes. It never showed the entire Bell Film start-to-finish with the between the sprocket holes images. I am especially interested in the between the sprocket holes segments: (1) showing Wiegman running toward Zapruder on the upper portion of the Knoll, (2) showing that man running along the South grass section directly toward the corner of Houston St/Main St, and (3) Showing Officer Hargis leaving the light pole and heading across Elm St toward his motorcycle.
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JAMES - Did the Bell Film you viewed show the images between the sprocket holes?
Royell,
I just received an email from Krishna at the SFM Reading Room. Their Mark Bell version does include the sprocket images, edge to edge. I asked if the museum had rights to that film and they do not. So any screen captures etc are not permissible. I've already started a to-do list and hope to make a short followup trip, probably around springtime.
James
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Royell,
I just received an email from Krishna at the SFM Reading Room. Their Mark Bell version does include the sprocket images, edge to edge. I asked if the museum had rights to that film and they do not. So any screen captures etc are not permissible. I've already started a to-do list and hope to make a short followup trip, probably around springtime.
James
James - Thanks.
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Mr Hackerott, I know you want to roll out your account section by section, but could I ask whether you studied the Depository entranceway shots in the Darnell film?
Thumb1:
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Mr Hackerott, I know you want to roll out your account section by section, but could I ask whether you studied the Depository entranceway shots in the Darnell film?
Thumb1:
Yes I did. Although I did not plan on that aspect I found myself somewhat surprised at the crispness of the PrayerPerson's neckline. We've not seen anything like that on these forums. I'd of liked, in retrospect, turning the monitor on its back and tracing the figure with my soft lead pencil. Instead, over two days, I made three sketches (I'm no artist). This is working on an image maybe an inch or two tall on the monitor - no zoom function - no animated gifs- no enhancements. I'm still not sure what to make of it. I saw no recognizable feature on the face. :-\
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Yes I did. Although I did not plan on that aspect I found myself somewhat surprised at the crispness of the PrayerPerson's neckline. We've not seen anything like that on these forums. I'd of liked, in retrospect, turning the monitor on its back and tracing the figure with my soft lead pencil. Instead, over two days, I made three sketches (I'm no artist). This is working on an image maybe an inch or two tall on the monitor - no zoom function - no animated gifs- no enhancements. I'm still not sure what to make of it. I saw no recognizable feature on the face. :-\
I suppose my first inquiry would be if there is any detectable indication of a head scarf, or a neck scarf. In any event, much appreciated, wherever it leads.
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Yes I did. Although I did not plan on that aspect I found myself somewhat surprised at the crispness of the PrayerPerson's neckline. We've not seen anything like that on these forums. I'd of liked, in retrospect, turning the monitor on its back and tracing the figure with my soft lead pencil. Instead, over two days, I made three sketches (I'm no artist). This is working on an image maybe an inch or two tall on the monitor - no zoom function - no animated gifs- no enhancements. I'm still not sure what to make of it. I saw no recognizable feature on the face. :-\
Many thanks for this, Mr Hackerott!
Any impressions from what you saw as to PrayerPerson's gender??
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Many thanks for this, Mr Hackerott!
Any impressions from what you saw as to PrayerPerson's gender??
Sorry, no more spoilers. I just need to focus on completing Part2 - Behind the Fence.
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Royell,
I just received an email from Krishna at the SFM Reading Room. Their Mark Bell version does include the sprocket images, edge to edge. I asked if the museum had rights to that film and they do not. So any screen captures etc are not permissible. I've already started a to-do list and hope to make a short followup trip, probably around springtime.
James
Just tell them that JFK researchers have never respected anything copyrighted, as that would be suppressing their "freedom of speech".
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There are two sequences taken from the top of the knoll. One was taken by A.J. L'Hoste of WFAA, not Couch. I thought the other one where you see a girl in skirt running down the knoll was by Darnell. Thanks.
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Krishna is such a cutie. I met her twice. ;D
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A friend of mine saw the Darnell film at the Researcher's Room a few months ago, and he saw the film taken from the top of the knoll. That seems to contradict your observations.
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A friend of mine saw the Darnell film at the Researcher's Room a few months ago, and he saw the film taken from the top of the knoll. That seems to contradict your observations.
Denis, thank you for that info. Recently I decided my initial impression was not correct, and indeed the girl running down the hill is part of the Darnell film. I based my earlier conclusion from the very last second of that clip. In the museum's film that last second or so shows a tanker truck entering the frame in the center lane of Elm. I had not seen that tanker truck in any previous versions of that clip. I'll have to add this to my list of corrections.
By the way Denis, I used your compilation for a visual aid. I'm not sure that it is your latest and greatest version. If you would point me to your best version I'll update the link.
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One of three major goals of my recent visit to Dealey Plaza was studying the Jimmy Darnell film version held at the Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza. Along with films by Mal Couch, Cook/Cooper and the DCA films (John Martin Jr. sequences). I hope to establish the sequencing and identity of the Darnell scenes post assassination. In particular I want to use the scenes behind the fence to map Darnell's path with the help of the John Martin film, Robert Hughes film, Don Cook (Cooper film), Jim Murray photos, and Cancellare photos. I also viewed the museum's version of the Bell film used in the NatGeo "The Lost Bullet" TV production, because I could.
To view and study these holdings of the museum a simple form was submitted to the museum's Reading Room which requests the scope for the visit and an appointment time. No problem there. I soon received a response from Krishna Shenoy (Librarian/Archivist) accepting my request. Krishna was extremely friendly, helpful and patient with all aspects of the process. One is provided paper, soft lead pencils and access to a pencil sharpener. No recording devices are allowed, other than the paper and pencil.
All of the above films are digitized on disc and handled only by the librarian. The viewer has a keyboard, mouse and 20" or so flat screen monitor. All of this is good news. Unfortunately, the software to view the files is the open-source VLC player. That software is fine for casual viewing, but is woefully inadequate for frame-by-frame study. It was possible to stop the viewing close to a desired frame, and if lucky, could single frame forward (only) until the software froze. There is no zoom ability. And of course, no frame grabs were permissible. Which left this viewer the task of unskilled sketching frames of interest.
I spent nearly four hours on the Darnell film the first day. I was given time the next day to continue as needed. I then spent maybe an hour on the Couch, Cooper, Dallas Cinema Association (DCA ) and Robert Mark Bell films. And another hour or so back to the Darnell film. I generated about 17 pages of notes (more like scribbles) and sketches. A brief summary of those films follows:
Jimmy Darnell
Much clearer then most or all of the video reproductions which we are familiar. There are several scenes I've never seen before. I plan to report my observations in parts. Part 1 will be while Darnell is south of Elm street. Part 2 will attempt to describe sequences in the Rail/Parking areas. Part 3 will deal with the sequences after he returns to the plaza. Part 4 special interest.
Malcolm (Mal) Couch
I was looking for a film clip taken from the top of the knoll four to five minutes after the assassination. Some researchers assign it to Darnell, but it was not in Darnell, or Couch either. I'm thinking it probably was filmed by Jim Underwood after he filmed and followed the crowd climbing the knoll steps..
Don Cook/Cooper - Don Cook filmed the scenes. Cooper compiled scenes as a jumbled film.
Its about the same quality as the best versions found on various DVDs. Nothing new to me.
Dallas Cinema Association, DCA Films
In general, overall about the same quality as Robert Groden's DVD version. However the museum's John Martin Jr. sequences were essentially black! Useless.
Robert Bell
Nice. I was looking for and found a good frame showing the machinery half a mile or so west of the Triple Under Pass. It's something used for sand/gravel I think. A screen grab would've been nice.
End of Introduction
When do we get your Parts 3 & 4?
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When do we get your Parts 3 & 4?
Fair question Royell. I've now continued proofing my first draft for part 3. I plan to post it by mid week. Thanks for your interest.
James
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JAMES - Thanks for all the work you have done and continue doing. Your current Darnell work is greatly appreciated.
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"The Lost Bullet" showed Portions of the Bell Film with images between the sprocket holes. It never showed the entire Bell Film start-to-finish with the between the sprocket holes images. I am especially interested in the between the sprocket holes segments: (1) showing Wiegman running toward Zapruder on the upper portion of the Knoll, (2) showing that man running along the South grass section directly toward the corner of Houston St/Main St, and (3) Showing Officer Hargis leaving the light pole and heading across Elm St toward his motorcycle.
Royell,
I had a chance last week to quickly view the Bell film at the museum. I remembered your request for (2) but not (1) or (3). Sorry. As far as the second running man (in Zapruder's film I guess), he does not show up at all in the inter-sprocket area. The other man is first seen between the sprocket holes, enters into the main frame and then back into the inter-sprocket area again for about 5 frames.