JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Paul May on October 20, 2019, 05:58:03 PM

Title: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Paul May on October 20, 2019, 05:58:03 PM
Trump’s Conspiracy Theories Target the Mentally Vulnerable

While the conspiracy theory crowd — who predominantly support Donald Trump and crackpot allies like Alex Jones and the shadowy QAnon — may appear to just be an odd quirk of modern society, some of them may suffer from psychological illnesses that involve paranoia and delusions, such as schizophrenia, or are at least vulnerable to them, like those with schizotypy personalities.

The link between schizotypy and belief in conspiracy theories is well-established, and a recent study published in the journal Psychiatry Research has demonstrated that it is still very prevalent in the population. The researchers found that those who were more likely to believe in outlandish conspiracy theories, such as the idea that the U.S. government created the AIDS epidemic, consistently scored high on measures of “odd beliefs and magical thinking.” One feature of magical thinking is a tendency to make connections between things that are actually unrelated in reality.

Donald Trump and media allies target these people directly. All one has to do is visit alt-right websites and discussion boards to see the evidence for such manipulation.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on October 20, 2019, 06:21:08 PM
Trump’s Conspiracy Theories Target the Mentally Vulnerable

While the conspiracy theory crowd — who predominantly support Donald Trump and crackpot allies like Alex Jones and the shadowy QAnon — may appear to just be an odd quirk of modern society, some of them may suffer from psychological illnesses that involve paranoia and delusions, such as schizophrenia, or are at least vulnerable to them, like those with schizotypy personalities.

The link between schizotypy and belief in conspiracy theories is well-established, and a recent study published in the journal Psychiatry Research has demonstrated that it is still very prevalent in the population. The researchers found that those who were more likely to believe in outlandish conspiracy theories, such as the idea that the U.S. government created the AIDS epidemic, consistently scored high on measures of “odd beliefs and magical thinking.” One feature of magical thinking is a tendency to make connections between things that are actually unrelated in reality.

Donald Trump and media allies target these people directly. All one has to do is visit alt-right websites and discussion boards to see the evidence for such manipulation.
This is all true and depressing but Trump supporters can claim that his opponents have been promoting conspiracy theories - that he's a Russian agent or he colluded with Putin.

We have Hillary Clinton saying just yesterday that Jill Stein - the Green Party candidate - is a Putin asset. And she suggested that Tulsi Gabbard may be one too.

And let's be honest here Paul: the major proponents of a JFK conspiracy have historically been people on the political left. Mark Lane, David Lifton, Oliver Stone, Sylvia Meaher. The theory that the evil CIA and National Security State were behind the murder because JFK was going to "end" the Cold War is something straight out of the left's general view of that conflict. That is, that it was caused by primarily by militarists and neo-fascists in the US and that Soviet policies were defensive measures in response.

Note: Oliver Stone, who promoted the above theory about the origins of the Cold War in a HBO documentary, is reportedly going to make a movie based on the leftwing Jim DiEugenio's book "Destiny Betrayed", a work that is about as bizarre as anything any alt-rightist has said. Story here: https://www.thewrap.com/agc-oliver-stone-jfk-destiny-betrayed/

I won't defend Trump: his abuses of power are too much; he needs to be impeached and convicted. But we live in ugly times where conspiracists from the right and left (and from no discernible political view) are trying to manipulate public opinion. And using the internet for it.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on October 20, 2019, 06:23:06 PM
Alex Jones was ostracized long ago. What about the 'we hate Trump and everyone that looks like him' radical psychopathic antifa loons and that all this assassination of Trump by impeachment stuff that is supposed to be EXPOSING the truth by holding everything in deep state secret?
It's deep alright    (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on October 20, 2019, 07:46:45 PM
Alex Jones was ostracized long ago. What about the 'we hate Trump and everyone that looks like him' radical psychopathic antifa loons and that all this assassination of Trump by impeachment stuff that is supposed to be EXPOSING the truth by holding everything in deep state secret?
It's deep alright    (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)

Jerry, your "Trump and Putin are the REAL victims" post (unsurprisingly) belongs under DiEugenio's posts on DPF. Kindly refresh my memory; how many did antifa murder in Charlottesville? No white supremacists, (aka fascists) no antifa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)#Ideology_and_activities

This is all true and depressing but Trump supporters can claim that his opponents have been promoting conspiracy theories - that he's a Russian agent or he colluded with Putin.

We have Hillary Clinton saying just yesterday that Jill Stein - the Green Party candidate - is a Putin asset. And she suggested that Tulsi Gabbard may be one too.

And let's be honest here Paul: the major proponents of a JFK conspiracy have historically been people on the political left. Mark Lane, David Lifton, Oliver Stone, Sylvia Meaher. The theory that the evil CIA and National Security State were behind the murder because JFK was going to "end" the Cold War is something straight out of the left's view of the world.

Note: Oliver Stone is reportedly going to make a movie based on the leftwing Jim DiEugenio's book "Destiny Betrayed", a work that is about as bizarre as anything any alt-rightist has said. Story here: https://www.thewrap.com/agc-oliver-stone-jfk-destiny-betrayed/

So we live in ugly times where conspiracists from the right and left are trying to manipulate public opinion. And using the internet for it.
"On both sides." is coincidentally, a tired Trump meme of false equivalnce. (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/patient-zero-of-the-next-false-equivalence-epidemic/598573/)

Steve, Dr. McAdams delays approving my posts about 30 hours, but to his credit, he eventually approves most of them. This was my submitted response, 8 hours ago, to your expression of conclusions on his google newsgroup similar to those in your post quoted above. I am adding more live links in this version, but otherwise it is identical to what you will soon be reading on the alt....jfk discussion.:
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Steve, I was struck by the black and white of lumping Stone and Garrison "in" with DiEugenio. "Jim Di" has a belief system that cannot consider or abide new facts, and I agree with your description of his JFK foreign policy theory triggering JFK's assassination. I mostly agree with the Corliss Lamont Stalin apologist "flavor" of DiEugenio and a number of other CTs. I think I've presented an evidence supported argument that none of us actually have a reliable sense of Garrison.
(consider my comments at the Variety.com Stone/DiEugenio article, the original source of "TheWrap" article you linked to,
https://variety.com/2019/tv/global/agc-television-picks-up-worldwide-oliver-stones-jfk-destiny-betrayed-1203368818/#article-comments )
He lived 11 months after Nicholas Lemann's final attack in GQ mag. in late 1991 and I've found no evidence of any response. Your opinion of Stone is likely influenced by his "Hidden History" series and "The Putin Interviews". Suprisingly the Putin Interviews received mixed instead of more deserving negative reviews. My shades of gray approach is a result of considering even the facts I don't like. I don't see how contemporary "Putin is a victim," follows from communist apologist. How much of what Stone has backed is a result of his knack for predicting what will sell vs. simply packaging and selling his actual personal beliefs? Details distract me into concluding only that it is complicated. Consider that Jinx Falkenberg was first cousin of Priscilla Johnson's close friend Macatee Davidson, wife of last UK ambassador to Laos, Alan Davidson and Jinx lived in a bungalow on the Jock Whitney (money man behind the Langbourne Williams Freeport Sulphur takeover) estate nearby to Priscilla's "Kaintuck," from 1946 until Whitney's widow Betsy evicted her. Consider that CIA director Bush chose Anthony A Lapham as CIA counsel and Lapham chose Henry Breck as godfather to his son Nicholas. Both Bush and Lapham claimed no prior connection to CIA. I find no way Lapham and Breck were even acquainted...no school, work, or family connection. Henry Breck's background and justification for what I can only partially agree with what you laid out as nonsense... LIFE - Jul 22, 1946 - Page 76 - Google Books Result
books.google.com/books?id=VksEAAAAMBAJ
Vol. 21, No. 4 - Magazine
DOUGLAS McCRARY, who as Aida ("Wendy") Iglehart was one of the North ... the art-filled home of her late parents, D. S. Iglehart, former head of the Grace ...
"Tex" McCrary's brother Douglas refused a tap from Skull and Bones but he married bonesman Stewart Iglehart;s sister.:This is the son-in-law of Douglas and Wendy Iglehart McCrary.:

The Very Best Men: Four Who Dared: The Early Years of the CIA - Page 91
books.google.com/books?isbn=0684825384
Evan Thomas - 1996 - Preview - More editions
"The Brits were the most bloodthirsty of all," said Henry Breck, Groton '54, a CIA case officer in India in the 1960s. "Of course, if you're in a real war you must fight hard — and the upper classes fight the hardest. They have the most to lose.

Henry Breck s the godfather of bonesman Lewis Lapham's grandson. Lapham's son, Anthony was best man in Breck's wedding. Anthony Lapham's wife Burks' father was bonesman Harry Payne Bingham.
Anthony A. Lapham was sponsored by bonesman David C. Acheson and then by bonesman George HW Bush.:
(Acheson and Tom Clark influenced Warren placing Henry Crown's personal attorney, BrianJenner as WC asst counsel)
Complete Oral History Package (930 KB) - Dcchs.org
www.dcchs.org/DavidCAcheson/DavidCAcheson_Complete.pdf‎
DAVID C. ACHESON. First Interview - January 27, 2010....
"....I thought, I have been very damn lucky to have Bobby Kennedy as a boss and have somebody like Fowler as my next boss. It was almost too good to be true. So I went over there, and I was sworn in, and I brought two guys from the U.S. Attorney’s office with me. A man named Robert E. Jordan who was later President of the D.C. Bar, and a very, very talented advocate and writer named Anthony Lapham. My immediate problem at the Treasury was to deal with the Warren Commission Report on the assassination of John F. Kennedy."
David Acheson helped "salt" the WC with Henry Crown's (while the defense contractor whose executive committee Crown controlled was still under active investigation by the US Senate McClellan committee over the unprecendeted DOD TFX contract award.) personal and General Dynamic corporate attorney, BrianE. Jenner, and then seemed to complain about having to deal with pushback in response to release of the WCR! (by the way, the auto-conversion of the word "Albert" to "Brian" is not my doing...)

Quote
On edit, I notice now that Valentine writes in his book, "The strength of the wolf: the secret history of America's war on drugs," that Anthony Lapham was an assistant to David Acheson in 1966, and is listed as an Asst. U.S. Attorney at that time. Valentine writes that Anthony Lapham "directed FBN agent Andrew Tartaglino to shut down a second MKULTRA safehouse on (105 West) 13th Street in New York. Valentine writes that Lapham was then a covert CIA agent. Valentine is the only source I can find for this. I doubt that an Asst. US Attorney could serve as a covert CIA agent simultaneously.
Quote
The Strength of the Wolf: The Secret History of America's ...
https://books.google.com  (https://books.google.com/books?id=Bed0gQKn-ucC&pg=PA390&lpg=PA390&dq=anthony+lapham+The+Strength+of+the+Wolf:+The+Secret+History+of+America%27s+War+on+Drugs&source=bl&ots=kyY0av2qEk&sig=ACfU3U0HMWyI261HEnEpKJXetMYGvkBvDQ&hl=en&ppis=_c&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjvop7FvavlAhUQmeAKHQOCAQ0Q6AEwAnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=anthony%20lapham%20The%20Strength%20of%20the%20Wolf%3A%20The%20Secret%20History%20of%20America's%20War%20on%20Drugs&f=false)› books
Douglas Valentine - 2004 - ‎History
The Secret History of America's War on Drugs Douglas Valentine ... Smith, and Senator Long, and by Tartaglino's account, Tony Lapham ordered him to shut ...
Quote
http://www.suzanmazur.com/?p=34
The CIA, Narcotics Underworld: Doug Valentine IV
August 19, 2007 Article – Suzan Mazur
....I’ve kept in touch with Doug, and recently asked him if he’d help me to flesh-out the new CIA book, Legacy of Ashes by Tim Weiner, the New York Times National Security reporter.
.....
Strength of the Wolf documents the history of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. The FBN rubbed up against the CIA and FBI until it was finally rubbed out by “the Establishment” in 1968. Valentine attributes the demise of the FBN to the bureau’s success in penetrating the Mafia and the French connection and case-making agents uncovering “the Establishment’s ties to organized crime”.
Unlike the Weiner book’s interviews with 10 CIA Directors, Valentine says the CIA did its best to prevent Strength of the Wolf from going forward. My interview with Doug Valentine follows.
....Doug Valentine: Some things never change. The Weiner CIA book is revisionism for a purpose.

Suzan Mazur: More recently, we’ve had Lewis Lapham running Harper’s magazine while his brother Tony Lapham was the CIA’s general counsel. How tight would you say the connections between the CIA and the media are at the moment, including the new media?

Doug Valentine: Tony Lapham was a George H.W. Bush appointee as CIA General Counsel when Bush was DCI. Lapham had also been a covert agent. He ordered the shut down of a CIA MKULTRA New York safe house at 105 West 13th Street in Greenwich Village where the agency did some of its mind control experiments.....
Edited September 18, 2010 by Tom Scully
Which brings us back to George White's link to that safehouse and to his relationship with anti-Garrison investigation "journalist" James Phelan and his thirteen year career "launch" in the employ of Clark M Clifford's uncle at the Alton Evening Telegraph and the photo of Marina and Priscilla seated on each side of the spouse of Clifford's aunt....
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Richard Smith on October 20, 2019, 08:13:23 PM
What I find most amusing are those who dismiss claims as the product of a "conspiracy theory" while themselves advocating outlandish conspiracy theories.  Like "Russian collusion" and Jill Stein being a "Russian asset."  Kooks are not limited to the right or left.  There are plenty to go around.  The anti-vaxers are a great example. 
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Robert Reeves on October 20, 2019, 08:27:50 PM
Which party do you identify with @Paul? if you don't mind me asking. Is this just another Democrat party advertisement? It looks similar to the several posts, of late, we've seen here from Tom Scully dressed up as JFK research just to attack Trump. Tom's posts are always good, not complaining. But the agenda is obvious. Or maybe you're simply an R' 'NEVER TRUMPER'.

USA is in civil war. It seems to me to be, anyway. So I understand the anxiety American's are displaying. It's kinda funny, though, seeing American's attach blame, being so precise, having the answer to the current state of politics there. It's either 'Trump' or 'Hillary' or their supporters ... or Obama personally... or Brennan ... Comey ... Clapper ... CIA ... FBI ... Alex Jones ... Russiagate ... Ukrainians ... Bidens. It's just another election cycle -- more wacky accusations, more lies, more cover ups, more media lies, and now more accusations of whose supporter's conspiracy theories are wackiest? Which side of the political divide produces the most cranks? Be honest, there is a mesmerizing level of conspiracy theories swirling around on both sides. You are living in a clown show simulation. USA is at an all time low. A joke. And the same level of head[F]ckery going on there, could be argued is seen in the UK, at the moment. I think you are in denial if you actually think what's happened, of late, is simply all Trump's fault. The same blame game is leveled at Brexit.

I don't believe there is an exclusivity to any political side producing really out there crazies. I think every body, equally, is being screwed over, and played by an elite group of individuals with all the tools to make sure nothing ever comes to light of what really happens. The more I see the more I am convinced nothing is even real. Almost all of our political realities are fed to us by a completely insane group of people in the media that do not think twice about fabricating the truth to suit themselves, or their pay masters.

I have the solution to all this - Term limits.

Get rid of all these crazy politicians and start anew. The level of toxicity in politics is because the same faces, the same tactics, the same corruption, it ain't ever going away. Not unless the public are prevented from aiding this circular toxic cycle. Nothing will change It's hilarious when you think about it. Trying to level conspiracy theories as being consumed only by crazies, right now. There are some pretty legit serious questions needing answers re the integrity of our politicians and government agencies.

For instance, I seriously doubt it was ONLY Trump supporters wondering what the hell was going on with Jeffery Epstein. Pretty sure that one has crossed all political persuasions, races, sexes, status'.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on October 20, 2019, 08:35:53 PM
Good Lord. Is this all you LNers got is to equate the CTs that post here with tin foil hat Trump conspiracy loons such as Alex Jones that buy into every conspiracy theory that comes down the pike, including Sandy Hook? You are lumping in most of the population, including the HSCA that think the JFK assassination was a conspiracy. Most of the population are not Trump supporters. Only the tin foil hat wearing stable genius' are, like you guys.

IMO, this thread smells like a last LNer gasp to discredit all the CT arguments but they be losing bigly here lately trying to defend the indefensible. Logistians, LNers ain't. The conspirators thank you mightily for your devoted patronage, suckers!
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on October 20, 2019, 08:45:27 PM
Which party do you identify with @Paul? if you don't mind me asking. Is this just another Democrat party advertisement? It looks similar to the several posts, of late, we've seen here from Tom Scully dressed up as JFK research just to attack Trump. Tom's posts are always good, not complaining. But the agenda is obvious. Or maybe you're simply an R' 'NEVER TRUMPER'....

Robert, please read on.... I promise you I am presenting the well supported posts on this current controversy as I attempt to on any other controversy. I call it as I can support it, I correct when taught by better supported, differing argument. I do take into account what the wealthiest and most powerful have invested in to attempt to shape how I know what I know. Let verifiable facts do the persuading, not "the money".

If you have access, view this. I am not overly worried my country is on the verge of civil war. Facts foster hope!
At 18:39, Van Jones presents "Better Angels," a nonpartisan group organizing face to face discussion of opposing sides.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch.... (https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&biw=1214&bih=632&ei=vLysXYfiKNGyggeIsr6gBw&q=CNN+The+Van+Jones+Show+Oct%2F19%2F19+-+Urgent+...+-+YouTube&oq=CNN+The+Van+Jones+Show+Oct%2F19%2F19+-+Urgent+...+-+YouTube&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299.9727.9727..10769...0.0..0.173.173.0j1......0....2j1..gws-wiz.Yb0orsnEoJk&ved=0ahUKEwiHsJeX0KvlAhVRmeAKHQiZD3QQ4dUDCAo&uact=5)
 The Van Jones Show 10/19/19 - CNN The Van Jones Show Oct/19/19 - Urgent News From Trump.

What I find most amusing are those who dismiss claims as the product of a "conspiracy theory" while themselves advocating outlandish conspiracy theories.  Like "Russian collusion" and Jill Stein being a "Russian asset."  Kooks are not limited to the right or left.  There are plenty to go around.  The anti-vaxers are a great example.

E tu, Richard? Team Trump propaganda seems to have infected "all walks!"

I have been paying attention for more than ten years.... what is your POV actually influenced by?
Quote
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/14334-distorting-history-a-reply/?do=findComment&comment=169668

Guest Tom Scully Posted July 13, 2009
(edited)
John,

This woman, Marcy Wheeler is a unique resource, demonstrating time after time, meticulous analysis and insight. Her core strength is in the timelines she develops. Corp Media journalists routinely plagerize her work, except for too rare, ethical reporters:

  Quote
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/07/...ads-two-points/

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/08/05/what-i-would-do-with-the-mueller-report-if-i-were-reggie-walton/
WHAT I WOULD DO WITH THE MUELLER REPORT IF I WERE (Federal Judge) REGGIE WALTON
August 5, 2019/ in 2016 Presidential Election, Mueller Probe /by emptywheel
....
Quote
Walton said he had “some concerns” about trying to reconcile public statements Trump and Attorney General William Barr have made about the report with the content of the report itself.

The judge pointed to Trump’s claims that Mueller found “no collusion” between his campaign and Russia and the president’s insistence that he had been exonerated from a possible obstruction of justice charge. These comments, Walton said, appeared bolstered by Barr’s description of Mueller’s findings during a DOJ news conference — before the public and media could read the document for themselves.

“It’d seem to be inconsistent with what the report itself said,” Walton said. The judge also cited a letter Mueller’s office sent to Barr questioning the attorney general’s decision to release a four-page summary of the investigation’s conclusions that “did not fully capture the context, nature and substance” of the report.

Separately on Monday, Walton raised questions about a DOJ submission defending the agency’s decision to black out large portions of the Mueller report.

“I also worked for the department,” Walton said. “Sometimes the body does what the head wants.”
I thought I’d lay out what I would do if I were Judge Walton. I’d make different decisions if I were a judge, but having covered some of his biggest confrontations with an expansive Executive, I’m pretending I can imagine how he’d think.

I’m doing this not because I think he’ll follow my guidance, but to establish what I think might be reasonable things to imagine he’ll review for unsealing.

UNSEAL THE DISCUSSIONS OF HOW DONALD TRUMP PÈRE AND FILS AVOIDED TESTIFYING TO THE GRAND JURY
...Particularly given Jr’s willingness to testify to Congressional committees that likely don’t have all the documents from Trump Organization that Mueller had, those passages should be unsealed unless they involve real grand jury decisions.....

UNSEAL THE NAMES OF TRUMP FLUNKIES AGAINST WHOM INVESTIGATIONS WERE OPENED IN OCTOBER 2017
The most obviously dishonest thing Bill Barr did in releasing the Mueller Report is claim that those against whom prosecutions were declined were peripheral people. At least one person (and up to three people) in this passage is not: Don Jr. Walton should unseal these names, especially given that Barr lied about how peripheral, at least, the President’s son is.
(https://www.emptywheel.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Screen-Shot-2019-08-05-at-8.48.40-PM.png)

REVIEW THE LONGER DESCRIPTIONS OF THOSE WHO LIED BUT WEREN’T CHARGED
There are up to three people that Mueller appears to have considered for perjury charges (page 194 and two people on page 199) and at least one more whom he considered charging for false statements. Some of the discussion of the people in the former category include non grand jury material as well.

If I were Walton, I’d review this entire section and (treating Roger Stone separately) would unseal at least the names of the senior Trump officials not charged (one is KT McFarland). Given the treatment of Jeff Sessions — whose prosecution declination was not sealed — DOJ has already treated people inconsistently in this section.

REVIEW THE DECLINATIONS STARTING ON PAGE 176, PAGE 179, AND PAGE 188 FOR POSSIBLE UNSEALING
There are three declinations that are candidates for unsealing. The most important — which describes the office’s consideration of charging WikiLeaks’ releases of stolen emails as an illegal campaign donation — is the last one. It raises real campaign finance questions and would feed right into impeachment.

The charging decision on page 179 may explain why Don Jr wasn’t charged for sharing a link to a non-public site releasing stolen emails (but it could also pertain to someone no one knows who tried to hack Guccifer 2.0). If it’s the former, if I were Walton, I might consider unsealing that.

The most interesting charging decision, starting on page 176, may explain why WikiLeaks wasn’t charged, why Stone wasn’t or why others were not. If it’s WikiLeaks, it’s the kind of decision already made public in the recent SDNY decision and could be released. In any case, that’s a redaction that likely would be worth Walton’s judicial consideration.

ORDER THAT ROGER STONE SECTIONS BE UNSEALED IF THERE’S A SUBSTANTIVE CHANGE IN HIS GAG ORDER
A huge chunk of the remaining redactions pertain to Roger Stone or his trial. They also are among the most damning to Trump, as they implicate him personally in trying to make the most of Russia’s effort to help him. I, as Marcy Wheeler, would love to see them, today.

But Reggie Walton, who presumably eats lunch with Amy Berman Jackson in the DC District Judges cafeteria, will also recognize the difficulties she faces in seating a jury for the trial of the President’s rat-fucker in November. So unless something changes to the status quo — in which ABJ has imposed a strict gag on Stone — then I suspect he’ll cede to her judgment.

And, frankly, anyone who’d like to see Stone face some kind of repercussions for his rat-fuckery should also support him getting a fair trial, meaning they should support the continued sealing.

That doesn’t stop Walton from ordering that if something changes — if Stone wins an appeal he announced today to get his gag overturned, if Trump pardons Stone, or if Stone pleads — then the sections will automatically become unsealed. One of the biggest ways Trump can avoid all repercussion for his efforts to optimize the release of stolen information is to have Stone avoid trial (either by pleading or being pardoned) but preventing a reconsideration of redactions done to protect his right to a fair trial.

LEAVE NATIONAL SECURITY SECTIONS SEALED BECAUSE I’M REGGIE WALTON
I and many others would love to see more of the IRA and GRU sections (though there’s a gag in the IRA case now too), especially those sections about how GRU passed on materials to WikiLeaks.

But I’m not Reggie Walton. While he’s very happy to take on an expansive Executive, he generally shows significant deference for claims of national security. Thus, I expect he’ll likely leave this stuff sealed.
Richard, the author, Dr. Marcy Wheeler, is regarded highly enough to have opeds published in NY Times and appears not frequently enough on cable news shows.

Before dismissing her facts above as some partisan opinion, consider that she is an expert on FBI and NSA abuses and wrote this, just this week.:

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/10/18/surveillance-reform-can-no-longer-ignore-eo-12333/
SURVEILLANCE REFORM CAN NO LONGER IGNORE EO 12333
October 18, 2019/emptywheel
Yesterday, a bunch of civil liberties groups issued a letter calling for FISA 702 reform as part of the Section 215 reauthorization this year. I agree that the reauthorization this year should address the problems with 702 that weren't addressed…
Read more

....And this, today.:
Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/10/20/breaking-george-papadopoulos-says-fbi-should-have-surveilled-him-more-than-they-did/
BREAKING! GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS SAYS FBI SHOULD HAVE SURVEILLED HIM MORE THAN THEY DID
October 20, 2019/ 2016 Presidential Election, Mueller Probe /by emptywheel....
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on October 20, 2019, 08:54:59 PM
Alex Jones was ostracized long ago. What about the 'we hate Trump and everyone that looks like him' radical psychopathic antifa loons and that all this assassination of Trump by impeachment stuff that is supposed to be EXPOSING the truth by holding everything in deep state secret?
It's deep alright    (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)
True for the most part but how is that a defense of the President - not some oddball on the internet - promoting these conspiracy claims?

The "deep state" is not going after him and this wasn't a treasonous conspiracy to investigate him. Did Trump have enemies in the bureaucracy that perhaps abused their powers? Sure. But there is no such thing as a "deep state" and it hasn't been going after him.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 20, 2019, 09:27:23 PM
Good Lord. Is this all you LNers got is to equate the CTs that post here with tin foil hat Trump conspiracy loons such as Alex Jones that buy into every conspiracy theory that comes down the pike, including Sandy Hook? You are lumping in most of the population, including the HSCA that think the JFK assassination was a conspiracy. Most of the population are not Trump supporters. Only the tin foil hat wearing stable genius' are, like you guys.

IMO, this thread smells like a last LNer gasp to discredit all the CT arguments but they be losing bigly here lately trying to defend the indefensible. Logistians, LNers ain't. The conspirators thank you mightily for your devoted patronage, suckers!

They ( LNers ) be losing bigly here lately trying to defend the indefensible. Logistians, LNers ain't. The conspirators thank you mightily for your devoted patronage, suckers!

Well said, Jack....
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on October 21, 2019, 02:35:49 AM
What I find most amusing are those who dismiss claims as the product of a "conspiracy theory" while themselves advocating outlandish conspiracy theories.  Like "Russian collusion" and Jill Stein being a "Russian asset."  Kooks are not limited to the right or left.  There are plenty to go around.  The anti-vaxers are a great example.
True for the most part but how is that a defense of the President - not some oddball on the internet - promoting these conspiracy claims?

The "deep state" is not going after him and this wasn't a treasonous conspiracy to investigate him. Did Trump have enemies in the bureaucracy that perhaps abused their powers? Sure. But there is no such thing as a "deep state" and it hasn't been going after him.
They ( LNers ) be losing bigly here lately trying to defend the indefensible. Logistians, LNers ain't. The conspirators thank you mightily for your devoted patronage, suckers!

Well said, Jack....

I am tackling, in one post, the heaping helpin' "dumped" into this thread by Richard and Walt.... Hopefully, a "one stop, shop," post to shutdown CT, so far, unsupported in this thread, pro Trump Putin "stuff".

Imagine my reaction after reading posts of ideologically driven posters, in the grip of confirmation bias, who spend only a fraction of the time I devote to attempting to be and to stay informed. Embracing Trump/Fox/republican CT bs is a lazy-man endeavor or a hopelessly indoctrinated, self imposed paranoia.
In my humble but well-supported opinion, only one of these three posters is NOT regurgitating Trumpist, right wing, or (neither MSNBC or CNN corporate management is "left" wing) or center right corporate media (i.e., the majority of US for-profit news outlets). talking points.
Quote
https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/31/twitter-now-says-1-4-million-people-interacted-with-russian-trolls-during-2016-presidential-campaign/
Twitter now says 1.4 million people interacted with Russian trolls during 2016 presidential campaign
Sarah Buhr@sarahbuhr / 5:09 pm EST • January 31, 2018...

From page 10 of 11, of recently released, bi-partisan US Senate Intelligence Committee report.:
Quote
https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf
...X. (U) THE COMMITTEE'S REVIEW OF RUSSIA'S USE OF SOCIAL MEDIA
(U) Throughout 2017, 2018, and 2019, in addition to its review of classified information
on the topic, the Committee worked to elevate public awareness of the threat posed by Russia
online, an effort that included applying pressure on social media companies to more fully
examine their platforms for suspected Russian government activities.
(U) On March 30, 2017, the Committee held a public hearing for the purpose of
discussing Russian malign influence efforts. The hearing, entitled "Disinformation: A Primer in
Russian Active Measures and Influence Campaigns," included testimony from a number of
expert witnesses who provided insights into the mechanics of Russian influence operations and
warned that Russian social media manipulation "has not stopped since the election in November
and continues fomenting chaos amongst the American populace."293 Committee Members joined
witnesses in calling on social media companies to do more to uncover the Russian active
measures activities occurring on 'their platforms. In the wake of the hearing, the Committee
publicly and privately pressed social media companies to release more information about the
activity of Russian actors on social media in the lead-up to the 2016 election.
(U) On April 27, 2017, Facebook released a white paper detailing an array of malicious
information operations by organized actors on the Facebook social media platform.294 Though
the paper implicitly attributed the operations to Russian intelligence actors, the company had yet
to uncover the substantial operational activity of the IRA. 295 Finally, in late summer 2017,
Face book notified the Committee of its findings from an: internal information security
investigation which uncovered 470 accounts, groups, and pages linked to the IRA.296 ...

Quote
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/why-on-earth-does-trump-think-a-dnc-server-is-hidden-in-ukraine
By Matt Shuham and Josh Kovensky
October 1, 2019 2:10 pm
....
Crowdstrike, the conspiracy goes, provided the FBI with false information incriminating Russian hackers while the DNC refused to hand over the servers themselves. The theory’s proponents accuse Democrats of planting evidence that their servers were hacked during the 2016 election — a breach that, arguably, contributed to Hillary Clinton’s loss that November.

This, some right-wingers strenuously assert, gave Democrats cover for the supposed murder of Seth Rich, the former DNC staffer who, conspiracists believe, was the real source of the stolen emails published by Wikileaks. (Rich’s family has repeatedly asked prominent right wingers, including via a pending lawsuit against Fox News, to stop spreading this fake story.)
Quote
Appeals Court Reinstates Lawsuit Against Fox News Over ...
https://www.npr.org/2019/09/13/760681773/appeals-court-reinstates-lawsuit-against-fox-news-over-seth-rich-story
Sep 13, 2019 - The suit was filed by Rich's parents over a Fox News story from May 2017. ... The police department in Washington, D.C., believes Rich's shooting death was the result of a botched robbery. ... The suit by Seth Rich's parents, Joel and Mary Rich, was dismissed last year by Judge George B ...

In reality, Crowdstrike has had a hand investigating a number of high-profile hacking incidents, including the North Korean cyber-intrusion into Sony Pictures. But its work in 2016 for the Democratic National Committee brought the company to front pages worldwide....
Quote
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/very-important-to-unpack-this
Very Important to Unpack This
By Josh Marshall |October 17, 2019 1:55 pm
Among many other things, in his just concluded remarks, White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney slightly shifted the White House explanation. He said one reason for the hold up of weapons aid to Ukraine was about the “corruption related to the DNC server.” This needs to be unpacked.

It is just a shard of information. But it is a reference to the Seth Rich/DNC Server conspiracy theory which holds the following …

Not only did Donald Trump not collude with Russia during the 2016 campaign. Russia didn’t even interfere in the election at all. Both were framed by a conspiracy between Ukraine and the DNC. The server is the DNC server that the Russians hacked. It’s ‘missing’, so the conspiracy theory goes, because a cybersecurity firm called Crowdstrike was part of the conspiracy and they made it look like the Russians had hacked the servers when in fact it was an inside job by a disgruntled DNC employee. And which employee? Seth Rich.

You probably know this whole story, Russian propaganda channels and Wikileaks latched on to the idea that Rich, who all evidence suggests died the victim of a random street crime, was the disgruntled leaker and that he was later murdered by Democrats or people associated with the Clintons as part of the conspiracy.

That is what this is about: Russia and Trump were framed. The real election interference was a conspiracy between the DNC and Ukraine. That was why the White House held up military aid. And if there’s any question that this was an offhand remark by Mulvaney, remember: Trump explicitly invoked the “Crowdstrike server” in his call with Zelensky. That is what this is about.
Quote
Demystifying CrowdStrike Conspiracy Theories—Cyber ...
https://fortune.com/2019/09/28/crowdstrike-conspiracy-theories-trump-ukraine/
Sep 28, 2019 - But the mention begins to make some sense if one entertains fringe beliefs, fantasies, and paranoid speculation. ... The server, they say Ukraine has it. ... (CrowdStrike provided the bureau with digital images of the DNC's ...

Two days ago, Fox News "reporting," vs reality !
Quote
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/report-hillary-clinton-emails-violations-faults
THE CLINTONS Published 2 days ago
State Department report on Clinton emails finds hundreds of violations, dozens of individuals at fault...
VS:
Quote
https://www.grassley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/2019-10-17%20State%20Dept.%20to%20CEG%20-%20Classified%20Emails.pdf
Page 1 of 10 - October 16, 2019

....The Department has completed its administrative review of the handling of classified
information relating to emails located on former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's private
server and adjudication of potential security incidents.
Please find enclosed a final report
summarizing the Department's review of this matter. Should the Department become aware in
the future of any additional classified emails sent through former Secretary Clinton's server, the
Department will likewise follow appropriate procedures.

On page 8 of 10:
...The Use of Personal Email to conduct Official Business Represented an Increased Risk of
Unauthorized Disclosure
It was AP D's determination that the use of a private email system to conduct official business
added an increased degree of risk of compromise as a private system lacks the network
monitoring and intrusion detection capabilities of State Department networks. While the use of a
private email system itself did not necessarily increase the likelihood of classified information
being transmitted on unclassified systems, those incidents which then resulted in the presence of
classified information upon it carried an increased risk of compromise or inadvertent disclosure.

APD Uncovered No Persuasive Evidence of Systemic Misuse Relative to the Deliberate
Introduction of Classified Information to Unclassified Systems
While there were some instances of classified information being inappropriately introduced into
an unclassified system in furtherance of expedience, by and large, 'the individuals interviewed
were aware of security policies and did their best to implement them in their operations.
Correspondence with the Secretary is inherently sensitive, and is therefore open for broad
interpretation as to classification, particularly with respect to Foreign Government Information.
Instances of classified information being deliberately transmitted via unclassified email were the
rare exception and resulted in adjudicated security violations. There was no persuasive evidence
of systemic, deliberate mishandling of classified information.


Quote
https://time.com/5044847/michael-flynn-hillary-clinton-republican-convention-lock-her-up/
Michael Flynn Led a 'Lock Her Up' Chant at GOP Convention ...
https://time.com › Politics › White House
Dec 1, 2017
Former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn, who is expected to plead guilty to lying to federal ...

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton_email_controversy#Department_of_Justice_Inspector_General's_report
...Comey's October decision to send a letter notifying Congress that the investigation had been re-opened one week before the election was described as "ad-hoc" and "a serious error in judgment."[201]....
The IG report also commented on "highly classified information" in a purported Russian intelligence document obtained by the FBI that included an unconfirmed allegation that Attorney General Loretta Lynch assured a Clinton staffer that she would prevent the FBI investigation from digging too deeply into Clinton's affairs. The FBI long considered the document unreliable and a possible forgery, and Comey told IG investigators he knew the information was not true.[204] The IG report stated: "Comey said that he became concerned that the information about Lynch would taint the public's perception of the [Clinton] investigation if it leaked, particularly after DCLeaks and Guccifer 2.0 began releasing hacked emails in mid-June 2016," explaining why Comey chose to bypass Lynch and deputy AG Sally Yates to announce the FBI investigation findings himself.[205] The Washington Post also stated that "current and former officials" told them that Comey relied on the questionable document in making his July decision to announce on his own without his superiors approval that the investigation was over.[204]

Let us consider what "the four of us" might agree on, if anything. Jill Stein and the POTUS who selected Mike Flynn to be his National Security Advisor are either too clueless or lacking in self awareness to ever be seriously considered as qualified (reasonable) choices to vote for, for POTUS....
Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/12/19/in-defense-of-emmet-sullivan-van-grack-suggested-mueller-did-review-whether-flynns-behavior-amounted-to-treason/
IN DEFENSE OF EMMET SULLIVAN: VAN GRACK SUGGESTED MUELLER DID REVIEW WHETHER FLYNN’S BEHAVIOR AMOUNTED TO TREASON
December 19, 2018/ in2016 Presidential Election, emptywheel, Mueller Probe /by emptywheel
.....
I’d like to defend Judge Emmet Sullivan’s intemperate mentions of unregistered foreign agents and treason in the Mike Flynn sentencing hearing (https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/121818am-USA-v-Michael-Flynn-Sentencing.pdf) =link to transcript of Sentencing Hearing of Mike Flynn, December 17, 2018 sentencing hearing, yesterday. Not only has the discussion about his comments gotten the precise language used wrong, but it fails to understand the import of Mike Flynn’s lies about being an agent of the Turkish government.

There are two comments in question. First, in part of a speech about how he would weigh the mitigating and aggravating factors in Flynn’s sentencing, Sullivan said that Flynn was “an unregistered agent of a foreign country, while serving as the National Security Advisor to the President of the United States.”
Quote
I’m going to also take into consideration the aggravating circumstances, and the aggravating circumstances are serious. Not only did you lie to the FBI, but you lied to senior officials in the Trump Transition Team and Administration. Those lies caused the then-Vice President-Elect, incoming Chief of Staff, and then-Press Secretary to lie to the American people. Moreover, you lied to the FBI about three different topics, and you made those false statements while you were serving as the National Security Advisor, the President of the United States’ most senior national security aid. I can’t minimize that.

Two months later you again made false statements in multiple documents filed pursuant to the Foreign Agents Registration Act. So, all along you were an unregistered agent of a foreign country, while serving as the National Security Advisor to the President of the United States. [my emphasis]

Then, after having gotten Flynn to finally take him up on consulting with his attorneys, but before they recessed, Sullivan sat Flynn down and asked prosecutor Brandon Van Grack if prosecutors had evaluated Flynn’s activities to see if his behavior rose to the level of “treasonous activity.” Van Grack responded by answering about the crime of treason.
Quote
COURT: All right. I really don’t know the answer to this question, but given the fact that the then-President of the United States imposed sanctions against Russia for interfering with federal elections in this country, is there an opinion about the conduct of the defendant the following days that rises to the level of treasonous activity on his part?

MR. VAN GRACK: The government did not consider — I shouldn’t say — I shouldn’t say did not consider, but in terms of the evidence that the government had at the time, that was not something that we were considering in terms of charging the defendant.

THE COURT: All right. Hypothetically, could he have been charged with treason?

MR. VAN GRACK: Your Honor, I want to be careful what I represent.

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. VAN GRACK: And not having that information in front of me and because it’s such a serious question, I’m hesitant to answer it, especially because I think it’s different than asking if he could be charged under FARA or if there were other 1001 violations, for example. [my emphasis]
Flynn went off, consulted with his lawyers, and wisely decided the last thing he should do is let Sullivan sentence him while he was thinking of treason. When he came back, the first thing Sullivan did was correct that Flynn was not acting as a foreign agent while serving as National Security Advisor and explain that he did not think Flynn had committed treason, but wanted to know what Mueller’s thinking on uncharged crimes was.
Quote
THE COURT: All right. I just want to ask a couple of questions. This is directed to either government counsel or defense counsel. I made a statement about Mr. Flynn acting as a foreign agent while serving in the White House. I may have misspoken. Does that need to be corrected?

MR. VAN GRACK: Yes, Your Honor, that would be correct, which is that the conduct ended, I believe, in mid-November 2016.

THE COURT: All right. That’s what I thought, and I felt terrible about that. I just want the record clear on that. You agree with that, Counsel?

MR. KELNER: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. I also asked about — and this is very important — I also asked about the Special Counsel’s Office. I also asked questions about the Special Counsel and the — and other potential offenses for the purpose of understanding the benefit, if any, that Mr. Flynn has received in the plea deal. I wasn’t suggesting he’s committed treason. I wasn’t suggesting he committed violations. I was just curious as to whether or not he could have been charged, and I gave a few examples.

[snip]

THE COURT: And I said early on, Don’t read too much into the questions I ask. But I’m not suggesting he committed treason. I just asked a legitimate question.

MR. VAN GRACK: Yes, Your Honor. And that affords us an opportunity to clarify something on our end which is, with respect to treason, I said I wanted to make sure I had the statute in front of me. The government has no reason to believe that the defendant committed treason; not just at the time, but having proffered with the defendant and spoken with him through 19 interviews, no concerns with respect to the issue of treason. [my emphasis]
Now, I will be honest with you: I was screaming at Sullivan when I read this being tweeted out in real time, in part because I spend so much time arguing that Trump and his flunkies won’t be charged with treason because we’re not at war. I do think, in an effort to convey to Flynn just how reprehensible he believes his actions were, Sullivan got out over his skis. But I think his comments are far more defensible — and telling — than much of the commentary appreciates.

Here’s why.

First, even the docket makes it clear that there are a bunch of sealed documents that Sullivan has gotten, including an ex parte version of the government’s addendum describing Flynn’s cooperation. Sullivan started the hearing yesterday emphasizing that point, then returned to it after he had gotten Flynn to plead guilty again under oath.[/u]
Quote
There’s a great deal of nonpublic information in this case, and I’ll just leave it at that.

(The Court:) If any of my questions require a party to disclose nonpublic information, or if I begin to discuss something nonpublic, don’t be shy in telling me. My clerks over the years have learned to do this (indicating) if I get off of script or if I get into areas where — I won’t get offended if you do it. I may not see you, so stand up and raise your hands or say something, please. I don’t want to unintentionally say something that should not be revealed on the public docket.

There’s a new document that was filed at 10:19 this morning. The government filed a sealed motion alerting the Court that it inadvertently omitted one document from the government’s in-camera production.

[snip]

Having carefully read all the materials provided to the Court in this case, including those materials reviewed under seal and in-camera, I conclude that there was and remains to be a factual basis for Mr. Flynn’s plea of guilty. [my emphasis]
By yesterday morning, Emmet Sullivan probably became one of the few people outside Mueller’s team and his DOJ supervisors that understands the activities that Trump and his associates, including Flynn, engaged in from 2015 to 2017. He understands not just the significance of Flynn’s lies, but also how those lies tied to graft and conspiracy with foreign countries — countries including, but not limited to, Russia.

It should gravely worry the Trump people that Sullivan’s comments about whether Flynn’s behavior was treasonous came from someone who just read about what the Mueller investigation has discovered.

Now consider that, as part of his effort to understand how much benefit Flynn got from pleading guilty to one charge of false statements for his multiple lies, Sullivan and Van Grack had this exchange.
Quote
MR. VAN GRACK: [W]e’d like to bring to the Court’s attention that we just had an indictment unsealed in the Eastern District of Virginia charging Bijan Rafiekian and Ekim Alptekin with various violations, and the defendant provided substantial assistance to the attorneys in the Eastern District of Virginia in obtaining that charging document.

THE COURT: All right. Could the defendant have been indicted in that indictment? Could he have been charged in that indictment?

MR. VAN GRACK: And, Your Honor, the answer is yes, and the reason for that is that in the Statement of Offense in this case, the defendant refers to false statements in that FARA filing that are part of the indictment filed in the Eastern District of Virginia.

[snip]

THE COURT: And that would have been — what’s the exposure in that indictment if someone is found guilty?

MR. VAN GRACK: Your Honor, I believe, if you’ll give me a moment, I believe it was a conspiracy, 18 U.S.C. 371, which I believe is a five-year offense. It was a violation of 18 U.S.C. 951, which is either a five- or ten-year offense, and false statements — under those false statements, now that I think about it, Your Honor, pertain to Ekim Alptekin, and I don’t believe the defendant had exposure to the false statements of that individual.

THE COURT: Could the sentences have been run consecutive to one another?

MR. VAN GRACK: I believe so.

THE COURT: So the exposure would have been grave, then, would have been — it would have been — exposure to Mr. Flynn would have been significant had he been indicted? [my emphasis]

Van Grack not only says that Flynn could have been charged in that conspiracy to act as an unregistered foreign agent indictment, but that the lies he told were part of the indictment.

And in fact, this language in Flynn’s statement of the offense (which Sullivan read yesterday in court):

Quote
On March 7, 2017, FLYNN filed multiple documents with the Department of Justice pursuant to the Foreign Agents Registration Act (“FARA”) pertaining to a project performed by him and his company, the Flynn Intel Group, Inc. (“FIG”), for the principal benefit of the Republic of Turkey (“Turkey project”). In the FARA filings, FLYNN made materially false statements and omissions, including by falsely stating that (a) FIG did not know whether or the extent to which the Republic of Turkey was involved in the Turkey project, (b) the Turkey project was focused on improving U.S. business organizations’ confidence regarding doing business in Turkey, and (c) an op-ed by FLYNN published in The Hill on November 8, 2016, was written at his own initiative; and by omitting that officials from the Republic of Turkey provided supervision and direction over the Turkey project.

Became this language in the Bijan Kian and Ekim Alptekin indictment:
Quote
Tom Scully comment: Since this was written last December, Bijan Kian was convicted by a jury, even though Flynn did not testify at the trial....
Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/09/24/judge-trengas-bijan-kian-decision-may-hurt-not-help-mike-flynn/
JUDGE TRENGA’S BIJAN KIAN DECISION MAY HURT, NOT HELP, MIKE FLYNN
September 24, 2019/ in 2016 Presidential Election, Mueller Probe /by emptywheel
As expected, Judge Anthony Trenga has overturned the conviction of Mike Flynn’s former partner, Bijan Kian. ...
.....
While a lot of people are seeing this (accompanied by the news that Vin Weber and Tony Podesta won’t be charged) as a blow for DOJ’s new FARA prosecution practice, I think Trenga’s opinion has greater repercussions for 18 USC 951 prosecutions than it does for FARA, because he finds (convincingly) that Congress intended the standards for the former to be significantly higher than for the latter.

That said, a central part of Trenga’s ruling derived from his decisions regarding Flynn’s role in this and was, in part, a result of Flynn’s decision to renege on his plea colloquy. Because the government couldn’t call him to testify but neither could rely on his statements as a co-conspirator, it made the most important evidence fairly useless at trial.....

Quote
From approximately January 2017 through approximately March 2017, outside attorneys for Company A gathered information to determine whether Company A or any of its employees had an obligation to register under FARA based upon Company A’s work on “Operation Confidence.” During this process, RAFIEK.IAN and ALPTEKIN knowingly provided false information to Company A’s attorneys in an effort to hide from the attorneys – and ultimately from the FARA Unit – the involvement of Turkish government officials in the project.

Among other things, RAFIEKIAN falsely told Company A’s attorneys that:

a. The meeting on or about September 19, 2016 in New York City had nothing to do with Project Confidence, and instead was in furtherance of an abandoned “Project Truth” that was distinct from Project Confidence;

b. There were no other contacts with Turkish government officials regarding the project;

c. The op-ed was Person A’s own idea, and he wrote it on his own behalf, and unrelated to the project;

[snip]

Attorneys for Company A also solicited information from ALPTEKIN for use in the FARA filings. Through his own attorneys, ALPTEKIN falsely told Company A’s attorneys that:

a. ALPTEKIN had not been consulted on the op-ed, and that he would have opposed it if he had been consulted;

[snip]

On or about March 7, 2017, RAFIEKIAN and ALPTEKIN caused to be made the following false statements of material fact in documents filed with and furnished to the Attorney General under the provisions of FARA, and omitted the following material facts necessary to make the statements therein not misleading. RAFIEKIAN reviewed the filings and provided comments to Company A’s attorneys before the filings were submitted, but did not request that any of these false statements be changed.

[snip]

Exhibit A to Company A’s FARA Registration Statement falsely stated that “[Company A] does not know whether or the extent to which the Republic of Turkey was involved with its retention by [Company B] for the three-month project.”

[snip]

Paragraph 13: “In addition to the above described activities, if any, have you engaged in activity on your own behalf which b~nefits your foreign principal?”

Response: “Because of its expertise, [Company A J -officials write, speak, and give interviews relating to national security. Although not undertaken at the direction or control of a foreign principal, it is possible that such activities may have an indirect benefit to a principal. On his own initiative, [Person A J published an op-ed in The Hill on November 8, 2016, that related to the same subject matters as [Company A] work for [Company BJ. Neither [Company BJ, nor any other person requested or directed publication of the op-ed.”

The Attachment to Company A’s FARA Supplemental Statement falsely stated that “[Company A] understood the engagement to be focused on improving U.S. business organizations’ confidence regarding doing business in Turkey, particularly with respect to the stability of Turkey and its suitability as a venue for investment and commercial activity.”
While there are other false statements alleged (presumably the ones Van Grack said Flynn was not implicated in), the EDVA indictment actually charges four counts of false statements, and one of those directly maps to the lie Flynn himself pled guilty to.

Side note: it’s worth mentioning that Rob Kelner — who is still Flynn’s lawyer — is the guy who submitted those false FARA statements, which means he may be the lawyer that will take the stand in the EDVA trial to attest to the lies on those forms. It’s Kelner who still has some cooperation with prosecutors to do, at least as much as Flynn.

Significantly, as I noted the other day, both the conspiracy and the foreign agents charges in the EDVA indictment say the conduct continued through March 2017, the date Flynn Intelligence Group filed false FARA filings, hiding the fact that they knew Turkey was behind the Fethullah Gulen project.

Quote
COUNT ONE Conspiracy – 18 U.S. C. § 3 71 THE GRAND JURY FURTHER CHARGES THAT: 1. The allegations contained in the General Allegations of this Indictment are incorporated here by reference. 2. From at least July 2016, through at least March 2017, in the Eastern District of Virginia and elsewhere, the defendants,

[snip]

COUNT TWO Acting as an Unregistered Agent of a Foreign Government – 18 U.S. C. § 9 51 THE GRAND JURY FURTHER CHARGES THAT: 1. The allegations contained in the General Allegations of this Indictment are incorporated here by reference. 2. From approximately July 2016 through approximately March 2017, in the Eastern District of Virginia and elsewhere, the defendants, [my emphasis]

There’s a reason it gets charged that way, which is even more important for Flynn than for his co-conspirators (a reason that also played out in Paul Manafort’s case, in which he was charged for hiding his ties to Ukraine at a time when they would have impacted the Trump campaign).

The point of these registration crimes is that so long as you withhold full disclosure about your actions, you continue to lie to the federal government and the public about the significance of your actions. By filing a registration in March 2017 specifically denying what all the co-conspirators knew — that Flynn Intelligence Group was actually working for Turkey, not Ekim Alptekin’s cut-out Inovo — it prevented the public and the government from assessing the import of Flynn’s actions in trying to force DOJ to deem Gulen a terrorist who could be extradited to Turkey. And frankly, so long as Flynn continued to hide that detail, it made him susceptible to pressure if not blackmail from Turkey.

There’s a grammatical difference between Sullivan’s two comments. He first said that Flynn was “an unregistered agent of a foreign country, while serving as the National Security Advisor.” That was, technically, true. For the entirety of the time Flynn served as National Security Advisor, FIG had not admitted that it had actually been working directly for Turkey. Indeed, FIG continued to lie (and so remained unregistered) about that fact until December 1, 2017, when Flynn pled guilty.

As I’ll show in a follow-up post, it is critically important that Flynn continued to lie about whether he had been working directly for Turkey when he met with the FBI on January 24, 2017.

Sullivan’s follow-up used different grammar. Then, he said “Flynn [was not] acting as a foreign agent while serving in the White House.” That is also true. He was no longer secretly being paid by the government of Turkey to do things like slap his name on op-eds written by other people.

Still, even though he was no longer being paid to take specific actions requested by the government of Turkey, for the entire time he worked at the White House (and for more than eight months afterwards), his past work as an agent of a foreign government — as opposed to a foreign company cut-out — remained unregistered, undisclosed to the public.

With that in mind, I want to return to the specific exchange that Sullivan had. In response to his question about whether Flynn’s behavior amounted not to treason, but to treasonous activity, Van Grack at first says they did not consider treason, but then corrected himself.

Quote
COURT: All right. I really don’t know the answer to this question, but given the fact that the then-President of the United States imposed sanctions against Russia for interfering with federal elections in this country, is there an opinion about the conduct of the defendant the following days that rises to the level of treasonous activity on his part?

MR. VAN GRACK: The government did not consider — I shouldn’t say — I shouldn’t say did not consider, but in terms of the evidence that the government had at the time, that was not something that we were considering in terms of charging the defendant. [my emphasis]

All of this seems to be consistent with Mueller reviewing Flynn’s actions, reviewing statute, finding that Flynn’s behavior did rise to the standards described in 18 USC 951 (with which Van Grack said he could have been charged), but did not rise to treason (as it clearly did not). Van Grack explained that “in terms of other offenses, they were not sort of in consideration in our interfacing with the defendant,” which seems to admit that Flynn could have been charged with other crimes, but was not, because he cooperated.

This walkback, I’m convinced, is as much for the benefit of the prosecutors, who gave Flynn an unbelievable sweetheart deal, as it was for the sake of judicial restraint. Mueller is forgiving Flynn working in the White House while continuing to hide that he had, during the campaign, secretly and knowingly worked for a foreign government, in consideration of his cooperation unveiling other activities.

But legal standards aside, Sullivan — one of the only people who has read a summary of what Flynn provided in his cooperation — still could not hide his disgust about the conduct he knows far more about than we do.

Quote
This crime is very serious. As I stated, it involves false statements to the Federal Bureau of Investigation agents on the premises of the White House, in the White House in the West Wing by a high ranking security officer with, up to that point, had an unblemished career of service to his country. That’s a very serious offense.

You know, I’m going to take into consideration the 33 years of military service and sacrifice, and I’m going to take into consideration the substantial assistance of several ongoing — several ongoing investigations, but I’m going to also take into consideration the aggravating circumstances, and the aggravating circumstances are serious. Not only did you lie to the FBI, but you lied to senior officials in the Trump Transition Team and Administration. Those lies caused the then-Vice President-Elect, incoming Chief of Staff, and then-Press Secretary to lie to the American people. Moreover, you lied to the FBI about three different topics, and you made those false statements while you were serving as the National Security Advisor, the President of the United States’ most senior national security aid. I can’t minimize that.

Two months later you again made false statements in multiple documents filed pursuant to the Foreign Agents Registration Act. So, all along you were an unregistered agent of a foreign country, while serving as the National Security Advisor to the President of the United States.

I mean, arguably, that undermines everything this flag over here stands for (indicating). Arguably, you sold your country out. The Court’s going to consider all of that. I cannot assure you that if you proceed today you will not receive a sentence of incarceration. But I have to also tell you that at some point, if and when the government says you’ve concluded with your cooperation, you could be incarcerated.

It could be that any sentence of incarceration imposed after your further cooperation is completed would be for less time than a sentence may be today. I can’t make any guarantees, but I’m not hiding my disgust, my disdain for this criminal offense. [my emphasis]

I remain frustrated that Sullivan raised treason at all yesterday, as I spend a great deal of time tamping down discussion of treason; none of the Trump flunkies’ actions that have been thus far revealed reach treason.

But I think I’m beginning to understand what a big deal it was for Flynn to continue to lie about his service for Turkey, even aside from the disgust I share with Sullivan that anyone would engage in such sleazy influence peddling while serving as a key foreign policy advisor for a guy running for President.

Flynn did a lot of really sleazy things. There was no discussion yesterday, for example, about how he gleefully worked on cashing in with nuclear deals even while Trump was being inaugurated. The public lacks both a full accounting of his sleazy actions and full understanding of their import for national security.

Mueller’s team thinks Flynn’s cooperation has been so valuable that it should wipe away most punishment for those sleazy actions. Emmet Sullivan, having read a great deal of secret information, is not so sure.


Election Day, 2016:
Quote
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/world/europe/turkey-flynn-erdogan-gulen.html
Turkey Cheered by Words of Michael Flynn, Trump’s Security Adviser
By Rod Nordland
Nov. 19, 2016

ISTANBUL — Lt. Gen. Michael T. Flynn, the designated national security adviser for the incoming Trump administration, once wrote on Twitter that it was “rational” to fear Muslims, but that does not seem likely to cause him any grief with Turkey’s government, even though it is led by a religiously conservative Muslim, Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

Ankara has paid far more attention to General Flynn’s full-throated support for Mr. Erdogan’s government, and especially its wish to extradite the Islamic scholar Fethullah Gulen from his sanctuary in the Pocono Mountains of Pennsylvania.

General Flynn wrote an article published in The Hill on Election Day calling on the United States to be more sympathetic to the concerns of Turkey, a NATO ally, and embracing Mr. Erdogan’s position that Mr. Gulen is an extremist who was behind the failed July coup against his government.
Quote
https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/foreign-policy/305021-our-ally-turkey-is-in-crisis-and-needs-our-support
Our ally Turkey is in crisis and needs our support
BY LT. GEN. MICHAEL T. FLYNN (R), CONTRIBUTOR - 11/08/16 05:46 PM EST

Mr. Gulen and his supporters deny that, and depict him as a moderate more concerned with building thousands of schools than with toppling Turkey’s government. Mr. Gulen was once an ally of Mr. Erdogan, but they had a falling out.....

Quote
Flynn 'Lied to Investigators' About Russia Trip, Says Top House Dem ...
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/flynn-lied-investigators-about-russia-trip-says-top-house-dem-n763216
May 22, 2017 - Former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn appears to have ... The actual source of the funds for General Flynn's trip was not a U.S. company, but the Russian media propaganda arm, RT." The head table of a gala celebrating the tenth anniversary of Russia ... "I was asked by my speakers bureau, LAI.
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:RT_(TV_network)
RT talk page
...RT is a brand of "TV-Novosti", an "autonomous non-profit organization", founded by the Russian news agency, RIA Novosti, on 6 April 2005.[1][8] During the economic crisis in December 2008, the Russian government, headed by Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, included ANO "TV-Novosti" on its list of core organizations of strategic importance of Russia.[9][10][11]

RT has been frequently described as a propaganda outlet for the Russian government[12] and its foreign policy.[13][14][15][16][17][18] RT has also been accused of spreading disinformation[18][19][20] by news reporters,[21][22] including some former RT reporters.[23][24][25] The United Kingdom media regulator, Ofcom, has repeatedly found RT to have breached its rules on impartiality and on one occasion found it had broadcast "materially misleading" content.[26][27][28][29] RT's editor-in-chief compared it with the Russian Army and Defence Ministry, and talked about it "waging the information war against the entire Western world."[30] In September 2017, RT America was ordered to register as a "foreign agent" with the United States Department of Justice under the Foreign Agents Registration Act. Under the act, RT will be required to disclose financial information.[31]...

Quote
Guess Who Came to Dinner With Flynn and Putin - NBC News
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/guess-who-came-dinner-flynn-putin-n742696
Apr 18, 2017 - The head table of a gala celebrating the tenth anniversary of Russia .... Jill Stein was the only American besides Flynn at the head table.RT.
(https://media3.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2017_51/1955941/170405-putin-flynn-dinner-jhc-1700_ae6b4cdd270c7a7f3720c0df3b07f9fb.fit-1240w.jpg)
Senate Russia investigators are interested in Jill Stein
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/why-are-senate-russia-investigators-interested-jill-stein-n831261
Dec 20, 2017 - Michael Flynn and Jill Stein of the U.S. Green Party. .... Most famously, Stein helped celebrate RT's 10th anniversary in Moscow in December ...


Disclaimer: I prefer to err on the opposite side of what obviously benefits Putin and his poodles, Greenwald and... I read wikipedia "talk" pages because they display the competition of opinions and the quality of the support of the details that sustain in the actual wikipedia article.

If you perceive those politicians most pro-Putin are victims of American journalists reporting "fake news," possibly the core problem is not the reporting?

Tucker Carlson, John Solomon, Hannity sponsored Sara Carter, vs.....

It appears to me Rep. Gabbard was raised by a scoundrel.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mike_Gabbard
Talk:Mike Gabbard

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tulsi_Gabbard_2020_presidential_campaign#Smear_campaign
Talk:Tulsi Gabbard 2020 presidential campaign

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Stephen_F._Cohen
Talk:Stephen F. Cohen


Quote
https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/8/2/20751789/kamala-harris-destroyed-tulsi-gabbard-bots-google
.......
2020 is going to be a doozy online.
By Emily Stewart Aug 2, 2019, 4:20pm EDT

Quote
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/russia-s-propaganda-machine-discovers-2020-democratic-candidate-tulsi-gabbard-n964261

Feb. 2, 2019, 7:03 AM ESTBy Robert Windrem and Ben Popken
The Russian propaganda machine that tried to influence the 2016 U.S. election is now promoting the presidential aspirations of a controversial Hawaii Democrat who earlier this month declared her intention to run for president in 2020.

An NBC News analysis of the main English-language news sites employed by Russia in its 2016 election meddling shows Rep. Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii, who is set to make her formal announcement Saturday, has become a favorite of the sites Moscow used when it interfered in 2016.

Several experts who track websites and social media linked to the Kremlin have also seen what they believe may be the first stirrings of an upcoming Russian campaign of support for Gabbard.....
Quote
The Cold War Ides of March | The Nation

https://www.thenation.com/article/the-cold-war-ides-of-march/
Mar 20, 2019 - By Stephen F. Cohen .... Herself a veteran of the US military forces, Representative Gabbard soldiers on, the only would-be Democratic ...

....In a post-debate analysis, Maureen Linke and Eliza Collins at the Wall Street Journal found that hundreds of social media accounts with “bot-like traits” promoted information and content that sought to inflame racial divisions during the debates. They found that certain hashtags originated with conservative activists, but then it seemed like bots were helping to spread them.For example, on Tuesday, a user named Susannah Faulkner first shared the hashtag #DemDebateSoWhite, and then Ali Alexander, a Republican operative who sparked a racist birther-like campaign about Harris during the first round of debates, retweeted it. And on Wednesday, conservative commentator Terrence K. Williams started the #KamalaHarrisDestroyed hashtag after Harris’s onstage exchange with Gabbard.
In both instances, the Journal, citing data from analytics company Storyful, found that a high number of the accounts that interacted with and spread the tweets and hashtags had “bot-like characteristics.”...

Quote
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/20/politics/tulsi-gabbard-fake-news-russia/index.html

Tulsi Gabbard invokes Trump's 'fake news' rhetoric to push back on report of Russia-linked support
By Devan Cole, CNN

Updated 12:09 PM ET, Mon May 20, 2019
....Appearing on ABC's "This Week," Gabbard was asked about her record on Russia by host George Stephanopoulos, who cited an article published last week by The Daily Beast titled "Tulsi Gabbard's Campaign Is Being Boosted by Putin Apologists."

The piece said her campaign was being "underwritten by some of the nation's leading Russophiles," citing donations from three supporters of the Kremlin and Russian President Vladimir Putin. The piece noted that Gabbard, who represents Hawaii, "is one of her party's more Russia-friendly voices in an era of deep Democratic suspicion of the country over its efforts to tip the 2016 election in favor" of Trump.....

May 19, 2019: Rep. Gabbard defends herself using a phrase made familiar by......despite having fifteen weeks to compose a defense without that phrase. :
Quote
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/week-transcript-19-19-rep-tulsi-gabbard-john/story?id=63130784
'This Week' Transcript 5-19-19: Rep. Tulsi Gabbard, John Hickenlooper, Rep. Seth Moulton and Gen. David Petraeus

ByABC NEWS May 19, 2019, 9:53 AM ET

....GABBARD: You know, it’s unfortunate that you’re citing that article, George, because it’s a whole lot of fake news. What I am focused on is what is in the best interest of the American people, what is in the best interest of our national security, keeping the American people safe.....

Quote
https://www.thedailybeast.com/tulsi-gabbards-campaign-is-being-boosted-by-russophiles
СОБАКА BITES ЧЕЛОВЕК

Tulsi Gabbard’s Campaign Is Being Boosted by Putin Apologists The Hawaii congresswoman is quickly becoming the top candidate for Democrats who think the Russian leader is misunderstood. Lachlan Markay
Reporter Sam Stein Politics Editor
Updated 05.17.19 11:49AM ET /
...Hawaii Rep. Tulsi Gabbard’s campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination is being underwritten by some of the nation’s leading Russophiles.

Donors to her campaign in the first quarter of the year included: Stephen F. Cohen, a Russian studies professor at New York University and prominent Kremlin sympathizer; Sharon Tennison, a vocal Putin supporter who nonetheless found herself detained by Russian authorities in 2016; and an employee of the Kremlin-backed broadcaster RT, who appears to have donated under the alias “Goofy Grapes.”

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 21, 2019, 04:24:26 AM
Alex Jones was ostracized long ago. What about the 'we hate Trump and everyone that looks like him' radical psychopathic antifa loons and that all this assassination of Trump by impeachment stuff that is supposed to be EXPOSING the truth by holding everything in deep state secret?
It's deep alright    (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tCX79zK/trump-pred.png)

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on October 21, 2019, 08:29:15 AM
Robert Reeves and anyone else of the UK, I am very interested in reading your opinions on this researcher.

Quote
https://caltonjock.com/wish-us-luck/
......
I am just one of, “Jock Tamson’s bairn’s”. All my life I have yearned for the day when Scotland would be free of the United Kingdom, UK an arrangement entered into over 300 years ago at the time a few so called, ” Scottish Lords” took a few pockets of English gold and sold their nation to a German King and his cohorts in England. ...

These are examples of the first of any reporting about Joseph Mifsud, beginning on 30 October, 2017.:
Quote
Who’s who in the George Papadopoulos court documents: The Post has identified several of the unnamed individuals who were in contact with the Trump campaign adviser.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/whos-who-in-the-george-papadopoulos-court-documents/2017/10/30/e131158c-bdb3-11e7-97d9-bdab5a0ab381_story.html
Helderman, Rosalind S.The Washington Post (Online), Washington, D.C.: WP Company LLC d/b/a The Washington Post. Oct 31, 2017.
...[Papadopoulos] out of his hair," she said. "The Professor": Joseph hitMifsud...
...hitMifsud, who formerly served as a government official in Malta. hitMifsud did not...
...Papadopoulos met hitMifsud in March 2016 while traveling in Italy, according to...

Top campaign officials knew of Trump adviser’s outreach to Russia: George Papadopoulos sought to arrange meetings between the campaign and Russian leadership.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-campaign-adviser-pleaded-guilty-to-lying-about-russian-contacts/2017/10/30/d525e712-bd7d-11e7-97d9-bdab5a0ab381_story.html
Helderman, Rosalind S; Hamburger, Tom.The Washington Post (Online), Washington, D.C.: WP Company LLC d/b/a The Washington Post. Oct 30, 2017.
...as Joseph hitMifsud, the director of the London Academy of Diplomacy. That...
... Mifsud told The Post in an email in August that he had "absolutely no contact...

Three former Trump campaign officials charged by special counsel: The charges were the first criminal allegations in the investigation into possible links between the Trump campaign and Russia.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/manafort-and-former-business-partner-asked-to-surrender-in-connection-with-special-counsel-probe/2017/10/30/6fe051f0-bd67-11e7-959c-fe2b598d8c00_story.html
Zapotosky, Matt; Helderman, Rosalind S; Leonnig, Carol D; Hsu, Spencer S.The Washington Post (Online), Washington, D.C.: WP Company LLC d/b/a The Washington Post. Oct 30, 2017.
...identified the professor with whom he met as Joseph Mifsud, the director of the...

Timeline: How a Trump adviser tried to work with the Russian government
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/10/30/timeline-how-a-trump-adviser-tried-to-work-with-the-russian-government/
Bump, Philip.The Washington Post (Online), Washington, D.C.: WP Company LLC d/b/a The Washington Post. Oct 30, 2017.
...on Monday that the professor is likely Joseph hitMifsud, the director of the...
...Duma and a "Valdai meeting." (There is such a meeting on April 19 that hitMifsud...

By Mid-November, this Scot seemed well informed.
Quote
https://caltonjock.com/2017/11/17/trump-putin-congressional-investigation-moving-finger-of-fate-pointing-at-the-tory-party-and-stirling-university-on-the-hook-as-well/
Trump – Putin Congressional Investigation – Moving Finger of Fate Pointing at the Tory Party and Stirling University on the Hook as Well
    George Papadopoulos     Papadopoulos and His Bid For Political Stardom George Demetrios Papadopoulos was born in August 1987 in Chicago, Cook County, Illinois. He graduated from DePaul University in 2009 with a degree in political science and government. Richard Farkas, a Russian politics professor at DePaul University, on discovering that his former … Continue reading“Trump – Putin Congressional Investigation – Moving Finger of Fate Pointing at the Tory Party and Stirling University on the Hook as Well”

Posted on November 17, 2017.....
Quote
https://caltonjock.com/2017/11/19/bogus-colleges-bogus-students-bogus-diplomas-bogus-directors-backdoor-immigration-on-an-industrial-scale-need-to-undo-the-gordian-knot/
Bogus Colleges – Bogus Student’s – Bogus Diploma’s – Bogus Directors – Backdoor Immigration on an Industrial Scale – Need to Undo the Gordian Knot
19 November, 2017
.....
12 Nov 2017: College chums: another academic link in the Mifsud puzzle

The London School of Executive Training (LSET) is a dynamic institution located in the heart of London with a “world-renowned” teaching faculty…..or so its website says...

Weeks later, this "opus" appeared.:
Quote
https://caltonjock.com/2017/12/05/the-longest-word-jigsaw-i-have-ever-compiled-i-know-it-all-links-but-can-you-work-it-out-a-clue-it-all-points-to-a-near-400-billion-rip-off/
5 December, 2017
The Longest Word Jigsaw I Have Ever Compiled – I know It All Links – But Can You Work It Out – A Clue – It All Points to a near £400 Billion Rip Off
        The Trump-Russia Saga The 2017 Special Counsel inquisition is an ongoing investigation in the United States led by former FBI Director Robert Mueller as special counsel under supervision of the United States Department of Justice. Mueller is exploring any coordination or Criminal conspiracy between Donald Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign and the … Continue reading“The Longest Word Jigsaw I Have Ever Compiled – I know It All Links – But Can You Work It Out – A Clue – It All Points to a near £400 Billion Rip Off”
.......
On the same day, Mueller’s team revealed that former Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos had admitted making false statements to FBI agents about contacts he had with Russian citizens while working for the Trump campaign in 2016.

What is potentially unravelling is a series of events so huge it covers international espionage, off-shore banks, dodgy real estate deals, mobsters, money laundering, poisoned dissidents, computer hacking, and the most shocking election in American history.

This article provides detail supporting contact/ links between:

Paul Manafort, Rick Gares, Michael Flynn, George Papadopoulous, Professor Joseph Mifsud, Stephan Claus Roh,Prasenjit Kumar Singh, Boris Johnson, Alok Sharma, Andrew Colin, Jeffrey T Leeds, Colin Powell, The Hon. Rupert Soames OBE and many other persons of interest.

It also provides evidence of working relationships within/between the following organisations:

INTO university partnerships, Leeds Equity Partners, The London Academy of Diplomacy, Stirling University, The London School of Executive Training (LSET), The Vavaldi Club, The Brexit Campaign, The Tory Party, The Link Campus University in Italy, ‘Globalistics’ in Moscow
......
About Joseph Mifsud

Born in Malta in 1960 his career began at the University of Malta where he became head of the education faculty in 1993.

He also claimed to have “served prominently” in the Maltese foreign ministry and to have played a “vital” role in Malta’s joining of EU in 2004……..though it’s doubtful whether he actually did....
Quote
https://caltonjock.com/2017/11/23/trump-russia-for-profit-education-the-gordian-knot-unravelled-multi-billion-profits-at-risk-with-a-clinton-presidency-so-she-had-to-go/
Trump – Russia – For Profit Education – The Gordian Knot Unravelled – Multi Billion Profits at Risk With A Clinton Presidency – So She Had to Go
        The Trump-Russia Story The 2017 Special Counsel investigation is an ongoing investigation in the United States led by former FBI Director Robert Mueller as special counsel under supervision of the United States Department of Justice. Mueller is exploring any coordination or Criminal conspiracy between Donald Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign and the … Continue reading“Trump – Russia – For Profit Education – The Gordian Knot Unravelled – Multi Billion Profits at Risk With A Clinton Presidency – So She Had to Go”
....

Four months later, he seems headed in the opposite direction, Trump becomes a victim...
Quote
https://caltonjock.com/2018/04/14/dirty-tricks-trumpgate-and-skripal-all-roads-lead-to-london-and-mi6/
Dirty Tricks – Trumpgate and Skripal – All Roads Lead to London and MI6
April 14, 2018
Note:  This article is a follow up to the undernoted link. (https://caltonjock.com/2017/11/17/trump-putin-congressional-investigation-moving-finger-of-fate-pointing-at-the-tory-party-and-stirling-university-on-the-hook-as-well/)       Boris Johnson – Trump – The Tory party Three senior past and present Foreign Office ministers, including the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, were targeted by individuals identified by the FBI as central to their investigation … Continue reading

Three months later, Obama "victimized" Trump.:
Quote
https://caltonjock.com/2018/06/05/putin-trump-helsinki-summit-us-press-corps-and-many-political-false-prophets-disgracefully-keep-the-pot-boiling-against-their-elected-president/
Putin Trump Helsinki Summit US Press Corps and Many Political False Prophets Disgracefully Keep the Pot Boiling Against Their Elected President
          16 Jul 2018: Helsinki Press Confernce President Putin Denied Russian government interference in the 2016 US Presidential Election President Trump then declined to endorse the US intelligence community’s assessment that Russia interfered in the election. Rebutting a number of  pointedly questionable  negative comments by a member of  the press corps he … Continue reading

I am still confident the facts contradict "Calton Jock's last two posts, but I am willing to read and consider facts supported opinions in disagreement.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 21, 2019, 04:05:13 PM
since 2003 and the Beyond Conspiracy "documentary" which was an elaborate effort by the leftward leaning media to repackage the WC report with computer simulation graphics, there has been increasing pressure to accept the WC report as "Case Closed".

All the more reason to suspect there IS a deep state that exists and it HAS been trying to shadow ban certain points of view, ofA which Alex Jones is a perfect example of how far the Google/Apple/Facebook technocracy is willing to go to silence dissenting views.

So I remain a Skeptic at the least if not an outright CT because this conflagration of media with repetitive talking points and banning and coercive effort to suggest politically correct speech is exactly what a deep state that was involved in the JFK assassination, would do, imho.

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Robert Reeves on October 21, 2019, 06:06:56 PM
Tom, several years ago when Cyprus' financially collapsed (2013) *can't remember where* I heard or read about Cyprus worrying western intelligence agencies due the close relationship with Putin/Russia there. Russia was going to fill the void. And then I remember on UK tv the discussion at the time because there was a growing influence of Russias 'Mafia' on the island. First I'd heard of it, I thought Cyprus was still a British colony, but I guess we let it go -- In hindsight, a mistake! Looks like everybody is after a piece of the action there. Another glorious own goal!

https://in-cyprus.com/the-russian-mafia-is-here/

Quote
A ‘branch’ of the Russian mafia is present in Cyprus and has close ties with the parental organisation which keeps its ‘branches’ under close control by applying a strong hierarchy and strict rules.

This conclusion was reached after the testimony given by Georgios Theodoridis, a 57-year-old Georgian. Theodoridis was arrested on February 8th for the murder of 47-year-old Ernesto Leonidis.

The team of Georgians involved in the murder appear to have been members of the criminal organisation. Theodoridis’s statement also mentions that the organisation keeps a treasury holding the revenue earned from their criminal activities and pays in this way the ‘wages’ of those involved, always according to instructions of the of the parental organisation in Russia. There is a strict hierarchy, a division in terms of different activity, and a clear distribution of tasks and responsibilities

A sub-group was in Limassol and the victim, Leonidis, was its leader and the one who controlled the Georgians in Cyprus. One of his murderers and a member of the illegal criminal organisation in Russia was opposed to him because Leonidis was trying to direct the criminal elements in Cyprus towards not committing any serious offenses. This reduced the illegal income and bothered the parental organisation.


https://in-cyprus.com/relations-between-cyprus-and-russia-developing-positively-says-putin/

Quote
Russia’s President Vladimir Putin and Cyprus President Nicos Anastasiades referred to the  close relations between Cyprus and the Russian Federation during a meeting on the sidelines of the Belt and Road Forum, organised in Beijing by the Chinese government.

A Presidency statement said that during the meeting, Putin, speaking through an interpreter, noted relations between Cyprus and Russia are based on “mutual respect. We have an excellent dialogue and remain in contact and have fine economic relations. Commerce increased by 154%”, he said, adding that more emphasis should be given on increasing direct contact with business people from both countries. He said that relations are developing positively.

On his part, Anastasiades said relations are increasingly strengthened and there is no doubt that Cyprus is grateful for Russia’s longstanding support on the political and economic level. Equally important is the military assistance that Russia gave to Cyprus when others refused to sell armament to Cyprus for its basic defence.

The President noted Russia’s decisive stance on the Cyprus issue, adding that knowing the excellent relations developing between Russia and Turkey, “I believe Russia’s intervention might prove more effective in efforts to solve the Cyprus problem”.

Cyprus has been divided since 1974, when Turkey invaded and occupied its northern third.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/17/welcome-to-limassolgrad-the-city-getting-rich-on-russian-money

Quote
Welcome to Limassolgrad: the city getting rich on Russian money

The skyline in Cyprus is changing rapidly with rich Russians moving in to claim a little slice of the EU

Nearly five years on from Cyprus’s near financial collapse and bailout, Limassol is undergoing a property development boom fuelled by Russian money.

In the marina of the island state’s second largest city, opened in 2014 by the president, Nicos Anastasiades, super-yachts are berthed in front of €15m villas along with their support ships carrying helicopters and other accoutrements of the super rich.

Look to the marina’s east and the skyline is beginning to fill up with high-rise luxury apartment developments. Look west and by 2021 Europe’s biggest casino resort is due to have opened its doors. The €550m investment aims to attract at least 300,000 tourists and 11,000 jobs.

It is Russians who are flocking to Limassol, snapping up properties along the island’s southern coast. Many are “buy to leave” investors, with most of the villas around the marina left empty by owners who prefer to live elsewhere.

It is all far removed from the island’s near financial meltdown at the height of its banking crisis in 2013. The EU and IMF were forced to step in with a $10bn financial lifeline when it became clear that Cypriot banks, exposed to gargantuan levels of Greek debt, were at the point of collapse.

Limassol has long been a magnet for affluent Russian expatriates, with the city earning the moniker “Limassolgrad” partly because of its reputation as a hub for offshore Russian finance and those wanting to hide their riches.

In the wake of perestroika, the 50,000-strong Russian community has grown exponentially. Shops with Cyrillic signage abound alongside Russian newspapers, radio stations, schools and churches.

But while focus on the expatriates has sharpened as investigators home in on Russian links to the inner circle of the US president, Donald Trump, Cypriot authorities are eager to lure ever more.

“We hold about six seminars a year promoting Cyprus across Russia,” says Antis Nathanael, head of the Cyprus Russian business association in Nicosia. “The 300 Cypriot companies in our directory have 90% of their operations in Russia and are worth around 80% of the wealth of Cyprus. We share the same religion and they love our sun. With Brexit, I am now working on bringing oligarchs over from London.”

Limassol’s changing skyline is also testimony to Cyprus’ Russian love-in. Under a money-for-passports programme instituted to help boost economic recovery, foreigners can become Cypriot citizens in a mere six months if they invest €2m in property.[/b]

Lawyers readily admit that the pickings have been rich. Russians desperate for a passport that will give them and their families easy access to other EU countries have led the wave. Last year the finance minister, Harris Georgiades, admitted that the controversial business model had injected around €4bn in foreign investment into the Cypriot economy – nearly 25% of the island’s GDP.

“If they are going to pay €2m for a property, why not get a passport as well,” quipped Christodoulides.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-10/cyprus-loses-luster-as-mediterranean-haven-for-russian-business

Quote
While the world's wealthy have abundant choices for passports and residency permits – from old standbys in the Caribbean to EU rivals such as Malta – Cyprus is the fastest, the consultants say. The nation's EU membership also makes its passport a golden ticket. The burgundy-red booklet allows travel to 147 countries, including the UK and Japan, without getting a visa in advance. That's a globetrotter's dream compared with Russia's 105, a figure taken from an index compiled by Montreal-based Arton Capital, which advises clients seeking passports.A US program offering residency rights in exchange for investment is under renewed scrutiny after press reports that companies associated with White House adviser and Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner have been pitching it to Chinese investors.

The sale of EU citizenship has raised concern among anti-corruption advocates, who say the practice opens gaping gateways into the 28-nation bloc.“That’s a back door,” said Miklos Ligeti, legal director of Transparency International Hungary, which has published research on alleged abuses in a Hungarian program that exchanges residency for bond investments. Russians and others who obtain Cyprus passports, but don't actually live there, are unfairly buying EU access, he said. “Giving residency permits to rich people just because they are rich is against the principle of equal opportunity.” The European Parliament passed a nonbinding resolution in 2014 that declared: “EU citizenship should never become a tradable commodity.” During the debate at the Strasbourg-based legislature, Romania's Sebastian Bodu protested that European passports would give visa-free travel to cash-rich Chinese and Russians. Any “gangster or oligarch will be able to do this unhindered if he has a bank account,” he said. “This seems to me to be rather outrageous and unfair.” In the case of Cyprus, there are signs he was right. One reason Russians have loaded up on passports is that Cypriot citizenship helps them avoid the prying eyes of their government and pay lower taxes. It also may make it easier to move money, because banks see them as benign locals rather than potentially suspicious foreigners.The resurgence of Russian money in Cyprus has become important on the world stage because it keeps popping up in news about links between Trump's team and Russia.

Former campaign manager Paul Manafort used Cypriot bank accounts to receive money from Russian tycoon Oleg Deripaska and Ukrainian clients, according to court records and former executives at the bank where the accounts were kept. Manafort and Deripaska have said the accounts were opened for legitimate business transactions.

Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross invested in Bank of Cyprus after the bailout, becoming vice-chairman of the island's largest lender for a time. The bank’s biggest individual investor: Russian billionaire Viktor Vekselberg. Thanks to the inflows of Russian money, Ross’s investment, still under water, isn’t a total flop.

But Cyprus’s passport popularity may become the revival’s undoing. Some advisers who help foreigners get citizenship are starting to worry that the swelling number of new Cypriots will cause the EU to pressure the country to make the citizenship process harder. If that happens, Russians looking to hide their riches might have to shop around again for new nationalities.
--


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-passports-for-sale-in-sunny-cyprus-lure-rich-russians-and-their-cash-a7732326.html

https://www.politico.eu/article/bill-browder-cyprus-accused-of-abetting-russian-money-laundering/

Quote
The anti-corruption and human rights activist Bill Browder is stepping up his campaign against dirty money in Cyprus with a complaint that has triggered a criminal investigation.

Browder, a U.S.-born British financier who has waged a campaign against the Kremlin and Russian organized crime for the past decade, argues that the case is symptomatic of much deeper problems with money laundering in Cyprus.

“From our experience, Russian organized crime has fully infiltrated Cyprus law enforcement and this is a prime example,” Browder said in an interview.

Campaigners and investigators have long identified Cyprus as a major destination for illicit Russian cash, and have accused Cypriot authorities of failing to crack down. The authorities say they have taken steps in recent years to address the problem. “I think the Cypriot authorities are effectively welcoming Russian laundered funds by not creating any consequences for the launderers,” Browder said. “Russia has been using Cyprus as the Trojan horse to getting money into Europe. It’s one of the weak links for Europe to fight Russian organized crime.”

Remember when Putin went after Browder whilst stood next to Trump in Helsinki? and then Trump tweeted about handing Browder over to the Russians to face investigating. Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!
----

All of this makes sense when you read this. As per usual, follow the money.

https://www.dw.com/en/cyprus-gas-discoveries-spark-us-russian-gamesmanship/a-48585334 

Quote
Earlier this year, ExxonMobil, together with Qatar Petroleum, found the third large gas reservoir off the coast of Cyprus. Known as the Glaucus-1 field, this latest discovery will add to the inventory of Eastern Mediterranean gas reservoirs coming online in neighboring Israeli and Egyptian territorial waters[/b], which are expected to form a new energy hub for regional and, possibly, export markets.

At the same time, officials in Washington are increasingly expressing support for cooperation between Israel, Cyprus and Greece in developing the reserves as a measure to counter both growing Russian influence in the Eastern Mediterranean, and also Turkish hostility towards gas development in Cyprus' territorial waters, where both have claims to energy resources.

The move signifies the return of direct US involvement in a region, where it has been largely absent in recent years as Russia strengthened its positions on the Syrian coast. Some officials in Washington and Europe also see the development of Eastern Mediterranean gas fields as a potential alternative energy source to Russian gas imports, through what is being called the East Med pipeline, which would run from Israel and Egypt through Cyprus, Greece and then onward to Italian and European markets.

I've been following Papadopoulos' twitter timeline and he's been saying some interesting stuff. And he started mentioning Cyprus. It triggered my memory of the Russian mafia influence on the island! It started to make sense why he became a target!

(https://i.postimg.cc/mDFrXcgd/tweets1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4N4gn7Rr/tweets2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WzWfd4Mv/tweets3.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqmkMBfp/tweets4.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0XxB3HV/tweets5.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/d1TRKmBr/tweets6.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8vnYyfZ/tweets7.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/PrfLWQwy/tweets8.jpg)

He's open and honest about what he got into. But who did, or does he work for?

Ok so when this whole Russiagate stuff began I remember Papadopoulos described as a 'lower ranking member' of Trump's campaign. Trump called him 'Low Level'. “Few people knew the young, low level volunteer named George, who has already proven to be a liar,” from a tweet https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/925335577217683456

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/31/us/politics/trump-manafort-papadopoulos-mueller.html

From those Papadopoulos tweets you can see yourself there's no way this was some lower level member of the team, especially if you are one of the nations fighting for control of Cyprus' gas. This guy was potentially advising the next POTUS. Cyprus has massive significance for European energy independence. Plus all their shady stuff with passports and money laundering. Right now Europeans are hooked on Russian gas - a BIG security problem. Surely someone told Trump this? State dept briefing? Do candidates get briefings on these things? I presume Papadopoulos has no state dept or previous government links, and yet he could have been brokering some significant future energy decisions in a very tricky area of the world right now. BIG BIG national importance for a lot of people. Papadopoulos introduced Trump to the Egyptian leader just 2 months before the election. Trump may, or may not -- which would be pretty shocking -- but it appears Papadopoulos knew the significance of what is going on between Cyprus>Turkey>Israel>Egypt>Russia>USA (and throw into that group all the Europeans). This is kinda ridiculous that Trump walked into this mess. Massive stakes, and he seems clueless!

And then when you throw into the mix Gen. Flynn's link to the Turkish government, this is big time potential conflict of interests. Gen. Flynn is wide open to compromise and leverage as an undeclared foreign agent for Turkish interests, in such an important area dealing with Turkey/Russia/Cyprus/Israel/Egypt

To me, it makes sense why both Flynn and Papadouplos were being monitored by *lets say* the IC. Plural agencies 'spying' on them. *And I say that as someone who initially thought Trump was right, that he, and his team were spied on* But, Papadouplos & Flynn, they both have major conflicts of interests. Papadouplos' are unknown? he seems to have randomly got himself into a position where he might have been given a Trump government position -- but yet his background is unverifiable.Surely he had to be monitored, for his own safety! Flynn is extremely wreckless. The guy must have known more about what was going on right now with Cyprus and Turkey>Russia, it would be ridiculous, he, a former head of DIA never declared his interests -- kinda worrying that there are people like Flynn in governments exposing nations to blackmail based decisions.

It's going to be interesting to see if Bidens are tangled up in this Cyprus/Ukrainian corruption, as Papadouplos alleges. I think he might know the truth, more than many. Which might explain Obama wanting to cover Biden's ass. The Trump team conveniently gave Obama's government enough concerns to investigate Flynn and Papadouplos, plus Manafort. They made it easy to be framed with Russia through Papadouplos and Fynn's pretty serious compromising connections.

There was smoke. As I think Brennan or Clapper said, about Russia and Trump's campaign. But the fire might also be for Biden/Obama's crew!

The experiment of having 'outsiders', like Trump, in government, has failed. Having someone without experience, plus his crap advisors around him, it's got him sucked into making many poor decisions. Manafort, Wilbur Ross, and Papadouplos, Flynn, all tangled up in Cypriot shenanigans. Obama was definitely right when he advised Trump not to hire Flynn. Flynn is so reckless -- Obama probably meant 'for all our sakes' don't hire Flynn. Knowing Flynn's conflict of interests would eventually also shed light on the dodgy dealings of the Biden's and whatever happened on Obama's watch elsewhere.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/us/politics/hunter-biden-ukraine.html

Quote
Diplomat Told House Investigators He Raised Alarm About Hunter Biden in 2015
A career State Department official told House impeachment investigators that he raised concerns about the vice president’s son serving on the board of a Ukrainian company, but was ignored.

WASHINGTON — A career State Department official told impeachment investigators this week that he raised concerns with a senior White House official in 2015 about the son of then-Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. holding a position on the board of a Ukrainian gas company.

But the warning from George P. Kent, then a State Department officer stationed in Kiev, was not acted on, according to two people familiar with Mr. Kent’s testimony. Mr. Kent, now of the State Department’s Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs, said he told the official that Hunter Biden’s position could look like a conflict of interest, given his father’s role, and would complicate American efforts to encourage Ukraine to clean up corruption.

Obama wont be endorsing Biden! guaranteed!

And I wont be type the name Papadopoulos for a while!
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on October 21, 2019, 06:33:33 PM
since 2003 and the Beyond Conspiracy "documentary" which was an elaborate effort by the leftward leaning media to repackage the WC report with computer simulation graphics, there has been increasing pressure to accept the WC report as "Case Closed".

All the more reason to suspect there IS a deep state that exists and it HAS been trying to shadow ban certain points of view, ofA which Alex Jones is a perfect example of how far the Google/Apple/Facebook technocracy is willing to go to silence dissenting views.

So I remain a Skeptic at the least if not an outright CT because this conflagration of media with repetitive talking points
and banning and coercive effort to suggest politically correct speech is exactly what a deep state that was involved in the JFK assassination, would do, imho.

It's only the future of my country hanging in the balance....keep right on sipping the Trump-Putin Kool-Ade, why don't you?
Or, perhaps you have extraordinary discernment, and despite all of my verfiable facts, I am the one duped by the "deep state" plotters against our "victim-in-chief" in the White House? BTW, I included an article on Sapir dated in year 2000 and on Russian mob names in Brighton Beach dated 1994. Even the imaginary "deep state" would find it difficult to "fake" those articles.

And.. to set this thread up, here is 2008 reporting by the man who later hired the former MI-6 one-time covert Moscow Agent:
Quote
Russia's Deripaska Faces Western Investigations - WSJ
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB122359420472121077
Oct 10, 2008 - ..Attorney General Michael Mukasey, citing Russia and Central Asian nations, said that underworld figures' growing clout in energy and strategic-materials.. Glenn R. Simpson at glenn.simpson@wsj.com and..

House Ex-Staffer Caught in Probe - WSJ
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB121306664542359865
Jun 10, 2008 - Attorney General Michael Mukasey in April said the government has reconvened its long-dormant federal Organized Crime Council to combat what he called a new ... Write to ..Glenn R. Simpson at glenn.simpson@wsj.com ..

Eleven years later:
Quote
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-latest-russia-conspiracy-busted-why-the-feds-settled-the-prevezon-case
Trump's Latest Russia Conspiracy Busted—Why the Feds Settled..
Harry Siegel 07.17.17
....
Prevezon was represented at that appeal by Michael Mukasey, the former U.S. attorney general whose son, Marc, has been rumored as a potential replacement for Bharara in the SDNY.

(As if this wasn’t complicated enough: Michael Mukasey is also currently working along with Marc’s law partner, Rudy Giuliani, for Reza Zarrab, the Turk close with that country’s leadership charged by Bharara with busting Iran sanctions. The pair have told the judge in that case that they were retained to find an extrajudicial resolution—...—to get their client off the hook.)

“The SDNY refused when Veselnitskaya wanted that renewal” last January, the official said. “At the time she met with Donald Trump, Jr., she was not here on its authority.”

The SDNY also tried to use its authority to remove her translator, Samochornov, who later accompanied her to the Trump Tower meeting, from the Prevezon case, telling the judge that he was “really a member of the defense team,” ....
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/01/10/the-misrepresentations-of-the-simpson-veselnitskaya-meetings/
The Misrepresentations of the Simpson-Veselnitskaya Meetings
January 10, 2018
..while it supports that Simpson saw Veselnitskaya at the court hearing (meaning Veselnitskaya is wrong on that point), it doesn’t support that she came from or returned to a meeting with Simpson directly before and after the Trump Tower meeting. Instead, it seems to support the case that Veselnitskaya and Simpson saw each other three days in succession because the Prevezon hearing was the stated purpose of her visit to the US. And Simpson’s claim that linguistic barriers prevented them from chatting that much seems credible.

..why the claim that Veselnitskaya had met with Simpson got leaked to Fox..

Quote
https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2007/12/27/what-do-susan-sarandon-and-alan-dershowitz-have-in-common/
What Do Susan Sarandon, Alan Dershowitz and the Russian Mob Have in Common?
December 27, 2007 By Richard Silverstein
Susan Sarandon, Denise Rich..
...Lev Leviev is not a member of the Russian mob. He’s way beyond that..

..Recently, Leviev decided to expand his diamond and real estate business to New York, where he owns property worth well over $1 billion including the Plaza Hotel and New York Times building ($525 million). The store opening and accompanying protest was covered by The Forward and JTA,..

As the photo above indicates, Leviev is linked with former Russian mobster and now oligarch, Roman Abramovich in the diamond business. ..Leviev, not to be outdone, also owns an Israeli football club. According to Haaretz, Leviev and Abramovich are among the two largest donors to Elad, whose goal is the “Judaize” East Jerusalem by buying up Arab property and transferring it to Jewish ownership..

...As for Dershowitz, ever the entertaining clown, Dersh must’ve seen the brouhaha and decided he needed to get a slice of Sarandon’s PR. So he went down to the Leviev showroom and came out swinging his shopping bag..he said that he opposed Israeli settlements. How quickly they forget. After watching Dershowitz’s pathetic primping performance in this video...

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Avnerovich_Leviev
Lev Leviev (born July 30, 1956) is an Israeli[3] businessman, philanthropist and investor, of Uzbek Bukhari Jewish background, Known as the "King of Diamonds". Lev Leviev has a net worth of $1.1 billion as of September 2016, [2] and has been a major philanthropist for Hasidic Jewish causes in Eastern Europe and Israel.[4] Beginning in the 1990s, Leviev avoided being directly involved with the Yeltsin family, and nurtured ties with Vladimir Putin.[5][6] His diamond mining investments in Angola and his investments in Israeli settlements have been the target of protests.[7] ..he is president of the World Congress of Bukharian Jews.

......
Money-Laundering

According to an article published in The Guardian on July 24, 2017, Donald Trump’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner sealed real estate deal worth $295m with Lev Avnerovich Leviev's firm cited in money-laundering case. The ties between Trump family real estate deals and Russian money interests are attracting increasing interest from the justice department’s special counsel, Robert Mueller as he is investigating alleged Russia interference in the presidential election.[27]

Quote
https://hillreporter.com/how-cohens-and-manaforts-ukraine-ties-tell-the-deeper-story-of-trump-russia-and-the-mueller-probe-4886
How Cohen’s and Manafort’s Ukraine Ties Tell the Deeper Story of Trump-Russia and the Mueller Probe
BY BRIAN FRYDENBORG August 1, 2018

Quote
https://www.nytimes.com/2000/08/09/nyregion/brass-knuckles-over-2-broadway-mta-landlord-are-fighting-it-over-rent.html
Brass Knuckles Over 2 Broadway; M.T.A. and Landlord Are Fighting It Out Over Rent and Renovations
By CHARLES V. BAGLI AUG. 9, 2000

Mr. Sapir (pronounced suh-PEER), 52, left the Soviet Union in 1973 with a wave of Jewish immigrants. He landed in New York in 1976, where he drove a cab for three years before borrowing $10,000 against his taxi medallion to open a small electronics store. The store, at 200 Fifth Avenue in the Flatiron neighborhood, became a wholesale outlet for Soviet diplomats, K.G.B. agents and Politburo members.

...In the 1980s, Donald Trump bought some 200 televisions for one of his hotels from an electronics store run by Semyon “Sam” Kislin and Tamir Sapir, immigrants from the then-Soviet Republics of Ukraine and Georgia, respectively.  Their store was a known hot-spot for senior government officials, spies, and politicians all from the Soviet Union.

Sapir may have (once) been part of or even come to the U.S. secretly working for the Soviet Ministry of Internal Affairs (at whose academy he had apparently studied). Rumors swirled around the sources of his extremely unlikely and massive wealth.  One of his primary business partners pled guilty to longtime scams with the Gambino Crime family.

As for Sapir’s partner, as I noted in more detail previously, Kislin was a longtime ally of Rudolph Giuliani: a prolific repeat donor to the future-Trump-ally’s mayoral campaigns, with Giuliani as mayor even appointing Kislin to his economic council where he served until Giuliani’s final year as mayor. Kislin would also later serve on another of the city’s economic advisory groups.  By at least the mid-1990s, U.S. authorities believed Kislin had helped launder millions for the Russian mafia, had helped bring in a suspected hired assassin to America, and specifically had been linked by the FBI to Vyacheslav Ivankov’s Russian mob crew based in Brighton Beach as a “member or associate.”

Ivankov—one of the Russian mafia’s top men in America—lived in Trump Tower, had the Trump Organization’s private contact numbers in his address book, and also loved frequently spending time—along with other Russian mobsters at Trump’s Taj Mahal casino in Atlantic City, NJ.

Ivankov reported to Russian mafia “boss of bosses” Semion Mogilevich, perhaps the most powerful mobster in the world today, a financial mastermind known for long-term schemes, a top concern of the FBI for decades, and a longtime-friend and ally of current Russia President Vladimir Putin, who shields him to this day from U.S. (and other) authorities.

Mogilevich set up a front company in America in 1995 that would perpetrate a massive stock fraud worth $150 million on the Toronto Stock Exchange. Its ostensible “CEO” was Jacob Bogatin, who made repeated donations in this role to the National Republican Congressional Committee. Jacob’s brother, David Bogatin, had served in the Soviet Army in Vietnam during the Vietnam War, targeting U.S. aircraft.  By the mid-1980s, Bogatin had purchased five Trump Tower apartments that Trump had personally sold to him. By 1990s, he was also a key soldier for Mogilevich.

A man that a U.S. Supreme Court petition for a writ of certiorari alleges was another Mogilevich lieutenant, Mikhael Sheferovsky, had a son, Felix Sater, who, even without his father’s possible relationship with Mogilevich (which Felix denies), ended up having his own ties to the Russian mafia.

Sater was involved in a massive stock fraud and money laundering scheme worth tens of millions. Sater ran his illegal operation in the mid-1990s from an office in none-other-than-Trump-owned 40 Wall Street. It’s well-known that Sater’s plan involved the Russian mafia, but it is not publicly known if Mogilevich was involved. If Mogilevich were involved, it would hardly be surprising because of his involvement in similar stock fraud and money laundering in the U.S. and Canada during the same period.

Many details of Sater’s case remain sealed because he later mysteriously cooperated with the U.S. government on national security issues in a deal made on the government’s side by Andrew Weissmann, then a federal prosecutor and now a key member of Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s team.

Glenn Simpson (a Fusion GPS opposition research lead investigator on numerous Russian cases including Trump’s connections to Russia and the infamous Prevezon/Magnitsky case, discussed later) also testified to U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee staff that Sater has strong ties to the Mogilevich crew. Specifics on which basis Simpson is alleging this are not clear.

Sater also grew up in Brighton Beach—a neighborhood notorious for being a Russian mafia enclave—and had a friend since childhood from that neighborhood whose uncle ran a catering establishment in New York then popular with the Russian mafia figures.  That friend was Michael Cohen, the same Michael Cohen closse to Trump and at the center of the Stormy Daniels saga.....

......If only Deripaska had a fixer like Michael Cohen, who apparently allegedly regularly paid women who had extramarital sexual affairs with Trump (and at least one other significant Republican Party figure, Elliott Broidy) to be quiet and go away.
Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-a-mcconnell-backed-effort-to-lift-russian-sanctions-boosted-a-kentucky-project/2019/08/13/72b26e00-b97c-11e9-b3b4-2bb69e8c4e39_story.html
How a McConnell-backed effort to lift Russian sanctions boosted a Kentucky project
By Tom Hamburger and Rosalind S. Helderman
August 14, 2019 at 11:10 a.m. EDT
....By the next day, McConnell had successfully blocked the bill, despite the defection of 11 Republicans.

Within weeks, the U.S. government had formally lifted sanctions on Rusal, citing a deal with the company that reduced the ownership interest of its Kremlin-linked founder, Oleg Deripaska. And three months later, Rusal announced plans for an extraordinary partnership with Bouchard’s company, providing $200 million in capital to buy a 40 percent stake in the new aluminum plant in Ashland, Ky. — a project Gov. Matt Bevin (R) boasted was “as significant as any economic deal ever made in the history of Kentucky.”....

Outside a courtroom in mid-April of this year in which the business inside centered on criminal inquiries into his own business dealings, Cohen took time to share cigars with Rotem Rosen and other friends.
Quote
Here is Cohen, with Rotem Rosen to his immediate right, just days after what Trump described as "an attack on our country," the FBI executing search warrants of Cohen, obtained by DOJ, SDNY prosecutors, and signed by a magistrate....
https://twitter.com/ElizLanders/status/984895132276273159
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpCohenRotemRosen041318.jpg)

Rosen married Tamir Sapir’s daughter, Zina Sapir, in 2007 at a ceremony hosted by Donald Trump himself at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort, and the next year, Trump and Kushner attended the newlywed couple’s bris for their newborn.

Rosen was the longtime right-hand man of Lev Leviev, a famous Israeli diamond oligarch from the former Soviet republic of Uzbekistan.  Leviev is close and, it seems, a friend to Vladimir Putin, but also is close with the Sapirs, Deripaska, and (another) Russian aluminum oligarch named Roman Abramovich, who is himself close to Putin and was apparently the first to recommend Putin to then-Russian President Boris Yeltsin as a successor.  Abramovich owns the UK club football team Chelsea, and until recently lived in the UK. Following Russia’s shocking recent Skripal chemical nerve agent attack on British soil, the UK declined to renew Abramovich’s visa, and he made aliyah to Israel, instantly becoming that nation’s wealthiest citizen).

When former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko, who had been talking on tape about Putin’s “good relationship” with Mogilevich, among other things, was assassinated with radioactive material in the UK in 2006 on the orders of the Kremlin (not that different from the Skripal poisoning), he was helping both British and Spanish intelligence look into money laundering and organized crime ties surrounding Abramovich.

Ivanka has been very close with Dasha Zhukova, Abramovich’s wife during this period (they separated in mid-2017, and Abramovich has since curiously been spotted with Polina Deripaska, Oleg’s “estranged” wife) for over a decade (introduced, interestingly, by Wendi Deng, then Rupert Murdoch’s wife and more recently a rumored lover/girlfriend of, yes, Vladimir Putin).  Abramovich became acquainted with both Kushner and Ivanka as a result.

His and Putin’s friend Leviev, whose company’s U.S. operations were headquartered at Trump’s 40 Wall St. property (where Sater ran his 1990s’ massive scam), was a business partner of Denis Katsyv, scion of a Putin ally, through Katsyv’s company Prevezon. Their dealings were at the heart of the whole Magnitsky money laundering and Russian sanctions saga that, in turn, led to the infamous June 2016, Trump Tower meeting hosted by Manafort, Kushner, and Donald Jr. with a variety of Russian operatives with deep Kremlin connections.

Leviev later conducted a major business deal with Kushner in 2015 and financing from Deutsche Bank related to that deal is under scrutiny by federal authorities. Deutsche also helped finance Donald Trump for years when few other banks would, and financed the Prevezon deal between Katsyv and Leviev. The Prevezon deal later became the subject of a settled civil case from the local U.S. Attorney’s office and is still the subject of a criminal probe there (a piece I wrote on Prevezon/Magnitsky was even censored in Russia). “Magnitsky” has since become synonymous with a human-rights crusade against Putin, and his Kremlin allies carried out by one Bill Browder, who has been a repeated target of Putin and Russian authorities as a result.

Another money laundering case of note involved the arrest of Mogilevich-linked Russian mobsters in Trump Tower when local boss Alimzhan Tokhtakhounov and his minions Vadim Trincher and Anatoly Golubchik were allegedly overseeing an illegal high-stakes international gambling ring. The ring targeted wealthy clientele and was, in part, operated out of the building (and was the subject of the recent Jessica Chastain movie Molly’s Game).  The gambling ring was popular with Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs in both Russia and Ukraine, and besides the gambling, its ringleaders also engaged in some $100 million in money laundering.

In 2009, Trincher bought an apartment in Trump Tower just below an apartment owned by Donald Trump, in which Trincher nearly held a fundraiser for future-Trump-ally Newt Gingrich two years later. The fundraiser never occurred after a mold problem, and a water leak was detected. Other mobsters in the outfit also owned Trump properties.  The minions did not escape justice in 2013 raids orchestrated by Preet Bharara (later fired by Trump), but Tokhtakhounov did and was soon after a red-carpet VIP guest at Trump’s 2013 Miss Universe Pageant. The two men arrived within minutes of each other, and it is certainly possible they interacted there in Moscow, a city where, to this day, Tokhtakhounov is regularly spotted at trendy public places.

*****

 

Meanwhile, Manafort’s and Gates’ work led to the triumphant rise of Yanukovych’s Party Of Regions and of Yanukovych’s ascent to Ukraine’s presidency in 2010.  Ultimately, the gas scam that empowered those wins precipitated the 2014 (Euro)Maidan revolution, the ouster of Yanukovych, Russia’s annexation of Crimea, and today’s civil war in Ukraine.  At this time, Manafort and Gates were lobbying the U.S. government to improve the corrupt image of Yanukovych’s government, and it was for lying about this work that Alexander van der Zwaan, son-in-law of major Putin-linked Russian oligarch billionaire German Khan, was sentenced in April, the first defendant in Mueller’s Russia probe sentenced to time in prison.

After Trump’s presidential win and eleven days before Trump’s inauguration in January 2017, Cohen met with a Russian oligarch close to Putin and the Kremlin named Viktor Vekselberg, who has been sanctioned by the U.S. government in response to Putin’s hostile actions. The two men discussed Russian-American relations in Trump Tower in New York; probably not coincidentally, a company of Vekselberg’s ended up sending Cohen substantial sums of money amounting to more than half of a million dollars.

A diplomatic episode from the beginning of Trump’s presidency ties all this together.  Early in 2017, Cohen teamed up with his old friend Sater and Topolov’s old associate Artemenko from the alleged Gazprom-related laundering scam in an unofficial diplomatic meeting in Manhattan regarding Ukraine. This meeting was organized by Alex Oronov, whom Artemenko described in March 2017 as a “partner, mentor, teacher and friend.” His statement was made shortly after Oronov had mysteriously died.

The purpose of the meeting was to discuss a “peace” plan for Ukraine that had support from senior Putin aides, one that would cede to Russia official control over Crimea, which Russia illegally annexed with a 50 or 100-year “lease.”  At the meeting were also discussed ways to undermine Ukraine’s current anti-Putin president, Petro Poroshenko.  Cohen personally delivered the proposal to National Security Advisor Michael Flynn, who had attended a Russian gala dinner in 2015 while seated at Putin’s table, which was next to Vekselberg’s table. Flynn would later resign from Trump’s team because of his Russian entanglements that would then lead to his indictment by the Special Counsel.

Such excellent Ukraine work assisting Russian interests would have made Manafort proud, and Manafort may even have played a role in it.  Artemenko used his private plane to fly Manafort to Europe in July 2013, and Manafort made at least 19 trips to Kiev in the 20 months after Yanukovych was overthrown in 2014, possibly partnering with Medvedchuk.

Soon after the last trip, he and Gates joined the Trump campaign, just in time for the campaign to defang the Republican Party Platform’s harsh language on Russia’s actions in Ukraine.

Cohen’s work on the 2017 “peace plan” would, had it been adopted, have been the long-worked-for culmination of over a decade of work by Manafort and Gates. This “peace plan” would have basically put an official stamp of approval on the latest in the long series of Putin, Yanukovych, Medvedchuk, and their whole crew’s efforts to enforce Russian domination of Ukraine through corruption, politics, lobbying, laundering, annexation, and war. Russia’s any means necessary approach was often orchestrated in no small part by Manafort.

With Manafort sidelined by the clouds hanging over his head, Cohen, along with his old friend Sater, were virtual representatives of Manafort, both in agenda and in spirit, ready to carry the pro-Russian torch Manafort had so diligently carried steadfastly for so long.

What is clear at a minimum is that an awful lot of people with deep ties to the Russian government, the Russian mafia, especially to Mogilevich, and involvement in (sometimes alleged) money laundering surround both Cohen and Manafort in profound, sustained ways. Those ties also appear to pertain directly to their relations to Trump the businessman, Trump the candidate, and Trump, the president.  At worst, this could go way beyond collusion.....

Quote
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/anthonycormier/trumps-lawyer-launched-an-offshore-casino-and-left-a-wake#.lrNJY6oqZ
How Trump's Lawyer Placed A Big Casino Bet That Left Dozens Empty-Handed

..Michael D. Cohen backed a different kind of venture: a gambling cruise that stiffed employees and vendors, and blew off many of the ensuing lawsuits.

March 15, 2017,
...this week, Michael Cohen at first said that he did not have a stake in the casino business, only the yacht, and bore no responsibility for lost wages and unpaid debts. But BuzzFeed News then sent him documents with his signature showing he owned 30% of the company.

“I disagree and, if I did, I never knew it,” he said.
Quote
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/02/us/politics/michael-cohen-donald-trump.html
Trump Foot Soldier Sidelined Under Glare of Russia Inquiry
JULY 2, 2017

...Just over a decade ago, Donald J. Trump was locked in conflict with a group of apartment owners.... Mr. Trump turned to Michael D. Cohen, a former personal injury lawyer who helped run a taxi fleet.

Mr. Cohen did not seem to have extensive expertise in the arcana of New York City condo rules... He had already purchased a number of Trump properties and had persuaded his parents, in-laws and a business partner to buy apartments in Mr. Trump’s flashy new development, Trump World Tower.

Plus, he had read Mr. Trump’s book “The Art of the Deal.” Twice...

... An uncle close to the Cohen family, Morton W. Levine, is a doctor and businessman...has long owned a Brooklyn catering hall, El Caribe,.. (Dr. Levine was never charged with any wrongdoing.)..

...After the infamous mob boss Agron was killed, Nayfeld served as a bodyguard and chauffer for the next don of the Russian mob, Marat Balagula.

Balagula maintained an office at the El Caribe Country Club, a Brooklyn catering hall and event space owned by the uncle of President Donald Trump's longtime personal lawyer, Michael Cohen.

The uncle, Dr. Morton Levine, said that all..have an ownership in the company, but that Cohen "gave up his stake," after Trump was elected.

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Michael Cohen's Ties to Russia, Crime and Trump – Rolling ...
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/a-brief-history-of-michael-cohens-criminal-ties-628875/
Apr 10, 2018 - In a five-year period, he and people connected to him would purchase Trump properties worth $17.3 million. All the frenzied buying by Cohen
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Trump's businesses are full of dirty Russian money. The scandal
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/trumps-businesses-are-full-of-dirty-russian-money-the-scandal-is-thats-legal/2019/03/29/11b812da-5171-11e9-88a1-ed346f0ec94f_story.html
Mar 29, 2019 - Shell companies put figures from Putin's Mafia into Trump Tower. ... the deeds to, lived in or ran criminal operations out of Trump Tower in New York .... There is no evidence of personal interaction between Trump and Ivankov.
Quote
Trump's Russian Laundromat | The New Republic
https://newrepublic.com/article/143586/trumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate
Jul 13, 2017 - The FBI concluded that one of Ivankov's partners in the operation was Felix Komarov, an upscale art dealer who lived in Trump Plaza on Third ...
New York Magazine Nov 7, 1994 (https://books.google.com/books?id=N-QCAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq="450-pound+convicted+bootlegger"&source=bl&ots=NGWJaisZlv&sig=ACfU3U3CiMEcJIdIdC60FOJ5rU1-jtUb1w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwil1rDw6a3lAhVOTd8KHfP9AqUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q="450-pound%20convicted%20bootlegger"&f=false)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/NYmag1994CohenPg56a.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/NYmag1994CohenPg56b.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/NYmag1994CohenPg58.jpg)

Was Trump's intervention in this convict serving out his prison sentence a result of the convict's and others in the Trump orbit
affiliation with Chabat? The nickname of Chabat rabbi Lazar is Putin's rabbi.
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2017/11/27/the-odd-chabad-connection-between-putin-and-trump/
The largest financial supporter of Chabat is Putin "friend" the oligarch Lev Leviev. Jared Kushner is linked religiously to Chabat and the former NY Times building with Lev Leviev. The former CEO of Leviev owned Israel Africa, described as Leviev right hand man Rotem Rosen was photographed last Friday talking with Michael Cohen and his 2007 wedding with Zina Sapir, daughter of Bayrock (Felix Sater) partner Tamir Sapir was hosted by Trump at Mira Lago. Trump is seen in a 2013 photo in Moscow with three others, including Rosen and Zina's brother Alex Sapir. The female Russian lawyer at the 2016 Trump tower meeting was at the center of litigation with US federal officials in her client's efforts to remove the Magnitsky act instigated freeze on Lev Leviev's Africa Israel assets which were under the disguised "ownership" of a Russian student.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-company-whose-lawyer-was-at-the-trump-tower-meeting-threatens-to-break-a-deal-with-the-feds
A reporter for Politico.com wrote an article in April, 2017 about the Happy Go Lucky Chabat folk behind Trump. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/04/the-happy-go-lucky-jewish-group-that-connects-trump-and-putin-215007
That article was published two months before the Trump Tower meeting was disclosed and 8 months before this
curious Trump intervention releasing this convict from prison.

Quote
https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-sholom-rubashkins-supporters-got-trump-to-commute-his-sentence/
How Sholom Rubashkin’s supporters got Trump to commute his sentence
Lawmakers on both sides of the aisle, prominent lawyers and Orthodox Jews all urged for pardon of Kosher meatpacking CEO
By RON KAMPEAS  23 December 2017, 3:19 am

Kushner has longstanding ties to the Chabad-Lubavitch movement, of which Rubashkin is a member. “My impression is that Donald Trump is much more receptive to the interests and concerns of the Orthodox Jewish community, maybe because of the association with his son-in-law,” said Nathan Lewin, a top Washington lawyer..

Kushner has longstanding ties to the Chabad-Lubavitch movement, of which Rubashkin is a member. “My impression is that Donald Trump is much more receptive to the interests and concerns of the Orthodox Jewish community, maybe because of the association with his son-in-law,” said Nathan Lewin, a top Washington lawyer..

and the Cohen to Flynn, peace plan.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/08/the-curious-link-between-trumps-moscow-tower-deal-and-a-ukraine-peace-plan/

Trump hosted the 2008 Mar-a-Lago wedding of Rotem Rosen and Zina Sapir, daughter of Tamir Sapir.
Rotem Rosen and his wife, Zina's brother, Alex Sapir are pictured with Trump in Moscow in 2013. Rotem Rosen was pictured talking with
Michael Cohen, last Friday.

Rotem Rosen was described in 2009 as the right hand man of Putin friend, Lev Leviev, largest contributor to Chabad.
Rotem Rosen until 2011 was CEO of Leviev's Africa-Israel, USA (aka AFI) Prevezon was partnered with Leviev's Netherlands affiliate of AFI.

The Russian lawyer representing Prevezon was the lawyer in the Trump Tower, "dirt on Hillary," meeting in June, 2016.:
Quote
Jared Kushner sealed real estate deal with oligarch's firm cited in ...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/24/jared-kushner-new-york-russia-money-laundering

Jul 24, 2017 - Court documents and company records show that AFI was cited in the Prevezon case as a business partner of the defendants. In 2008 ... “Natalia's main role was coordinating, including regular coordination with Chaika, whom she knew personally,” said a source acquainted with the Prevezon case.
Quote
https://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-director-louis-freeh-russia-prevezon-money-laundering-2017-11
Former FBI director Louis Freeh represented Prevezon, firm at center of money-laundering probe - Business Insider

Nov 16, 2017 - Prevezon is also represented by Natalia Veselnitskaya, the Russian lawyer who met with top Trump campaign officials in June 2016 at Trump Tower. ... a company called AFI Europe, which Prevezon says froze a payment of more than $3 million as part of the US litigation against the Russian-owned firm.
Quote
Quote
Inside the link between the Russian lawyer who met Donald Trump Jr. and the Trump dossier
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2017/07/11/inside-the-link-between-the-russian-lawyer-who-met-donald-trump-jr-and-the-trump-dossier/
Jul 11, 2017 - Prevezon is owned by Russian businessman Denis Katsyv. His father, Pyotr Katsyv, was vice premier and minister of transport of Moscow region from 2004 to 2012. Katsyv's deputy minister was Alexander Mitusov, Veselnitskaya's ex husband. Fusion GPS began its separate work on the Trump-Russia ..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Katsyv
Denis Katsyv is a Ukrainian-Jewish businessman based in Moscow and owner of Prevezon Holdings Limited. He was linked in a civil-assets case to money laundering through real estate investments in the United States, in violation of the Magnitsky Act of 2012; the case was settled in 2017 with the United States Justice Department by Prevezon agreeing to pay $5.9 million in fines.

Katsyv has been represented by attorney Natalia Veselnitskaya, who met with Fusion GPS co-founder Glenn R. Simpson and Donald Trump Jr in the summer of 2016, during the U.S. presidential campaign of the latter's father, then-nominee Donald Trump.

Background[edit]

Katsyv is the son of Pyotr Katsyv, a former vice governor and transportation minister of the Moscow region. He was educated and took advantage of business opportunities as Russia began to privatize.

The son became a shareholder of Cyprus-based Prevezon Holdings Ltd. shortly after it received mysterious cash payments in 2008 from Moldova.[1]

In May 2017, Prezevon settled a case brought by the U.S Department of Justice for $5.9 million in fines. It was related to Russian tax fraud and money laundering originally uncovered by the late Russian lawyer and auditor Sergei Magnitsky. Katsyv was represented by attorney Natalia Veselnitskaya [2][3] and law firm BakerHostetler in cooperation with research firm Fusion GPS, which was concurrently assembling opposition research against candidate Trump[4]. ..
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on October 21, 2019, 07:26:16 PM
Tom, several years ago when Cyprus' financially collapsed (2013) *can't remember where* I heard or read about Cyprus worrying western intelligence agencies due the close relationship with Putin/Russia there. Russia was going to fill the void. And then I remember on UK tv the discussion at the time because there was a growing influence of Russias 'Mafia' on the island. First I'd heard of it, I thought Cyprus was still a British colony, but I guess we let it go -- In hindsight, a mistake! Looks like everybody is after a piece of the action there. Another glorious own goal!

https://in-cyprus.com/the-russian-mafia-is-here/


https://in-cyprus.com/relations-between-cyprus-and-russia-developing-positively-says-putin/


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/17/welcome-to-limassolgrad-the-city-getting-rich-on-russian-money

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-10/cyprus-loses-luster-as-mediterranean-haven-for-russian-business
 --


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-passports-for-sale-in-sunny-cyprus-lure-rich-russians-and-their-cash-a7732326.html

https://www.politico.eu/article/bill-browder-cyprus-accused-of-abetting-russian-money-laundering/

Remember when Putin went after Browder whilst stood next to Trump in Helsinki? and then Trump tweeted about handing Browder over to the Russians to face investigating. Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!
----

All of this makes sense when you read this. As per usual, follow the money.

https://www.dw.com/en/cyprus-gas-discoveries-spark-us-russian-gamesmanship/a-48585334 

I've been following Papadopoulos' twitter timeline and he's been saying some interesting stuff. And he started mentioning Cyprus. It triggered my memory of the Russian mafia influence on the island! It started to make sense why he became a target!
.....
He's open and honest about what he got into. But who did, or does he work for?

Ok so when this whole Russiagate stuff began I remember Papadopoulos described as a 'lower ranking member' of Trump's campaign. Trump called him 'Low Level'. “Few people knew the young, low level volunteer named George, who has already proven to be a liar,” from a tweet https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/925335577217683456

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/31/us/politics/trump-manafort-papadopoulos-mueller.html

From those Papadopoulos tweets you can see yourself there's no way this was some lower level member of the team, especially if you are one of the nations fighting for control of Cyprus' gas. This guy was potentially advising the next POTUS. Cyprus has massive significance for European energy independence. Plus all their shady stuff with passports and money laundering. Right now Europeans are hooked on Russian gas - a BIG security problem. Surely someone told Trump this? State dept briefing? Do candidates get briefings on these things? I presume Papadopoulos has no state dept or previous government links, and yet he could have been brokering some significant future energy decisions in a very tricky area of the world right now. BIG BIG national importance for a lot of people. Papadopoulos introduced Trump to the Egyptian leader just 2 months before the election. Trump may, or may not -- which would be pretty shocking -- but it appears Papadopoulos knew the significance of what is going on between Cyprus>Turkey>Israel>Egypt>Russia>USA (and throw into that group all the Europeans). This is kinda ridiculous that Trump walked into this mess. Massive stakes, and he seems clueless!

And then when you throw into the mix Gen. Flynn's link to the Turkish government, this is big time potential conflict of interests. Gen. Flynn is wide open to compromise and leverage as an undeclared foreign agent for Turkish interests, in such an important area dealing with Turkey/Russia/Cyprus/Israel/Egypt

To me, it makes sense why both Flynn and Papadouplos were being monitored by *lets say* the IC. Plural agencies 'spying' on them. *And I say that as someone who initially thought Trump was right, that he, and his team were spied on* But, Papadouplos & Flynn, they both have major conflicts of interests. Papadouplos' are unknown? he seems to have randomly got himself into a position where he might have been given a Trump government position -- but yet his background is unverifiable.Surely he had to be monitored, for his own safety! Flynn is extremely wreckless. The guy must have known more about what was going on right now with Cyprus and Turkey>Russia, it would be ridiculous, he, a former head of DIA never declared his interests -- kinda worrying that there are people like Flynn in governments exposing nations to blackmail based decisions.

It's going to be interesting to see if Bidens are tangled up in this Cyprus/Ukrainian corruption, as Papadouplos alleges. I think he might know the truth, more than many. Which might explain Obama wanting to cover Biden's ass. The Trump team conveniently gave Obama's government enough concerns to investigate Flynn and Papadouplos, plus Manafort. They made it easy to be framed with Russia through Papadouplos and Fynn's pretty serious compromising connections.

There was smoke. As I think Brennan or Clapper said, about Russia and Trump's campaign. But the fire might also be for Biden/Obama's crew!

The experiment of having 'outsiders', like Trump, in government, has failed. Having someone without experience, plus his crap advisors around him, it's got him sucked into making many poor decisions. Manafort, Wilbur Ross, and Papadouplos, Flynn, all tangled up in Cypriot shenanigans. Obama was definitely right when he advised Trump not to hire Flynn. Flynn is so reckless -- Obama probably meant 'for all our sakes' don't hire Flynn. Knowing Flynn's conflict of interests would eventually also shed light on the dodgy dealings of the Biden's and whatever happened on Obama's watch elsewhere.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/us/politics/hunter-biden-ukraine.html

Obama wont be endorsing Biden! guaranteed!

And I wont be type the name Papadopoulos for a while!

Robert, you obviously are sincere and endeavor to be informed, too rare in these forums, but.... I urged Ed Forum readers to keep up with the research of Dr. Marcy Wheeler, in 2009... I try to read every piece authored by her, not necessarily by the others who post articles there. She has been exposing and humiliating Papadopoulos, accurately and justly, IMO, since days after his guilty plea was announced.

George Papadoupolos married a woman who was employed by Joseph Mifsud.

Robert, the "path" to Dr. Wheeler's conclusion below, at least in the U.S. goes this way...The White house leaks enough unique
details, mostly thru Sean Hannity, to give an appearance of accuracy. Hannity leaks primarily to three propagandists, John Solomon, Sara Carter, and dailycaller.com's Chuck Ross. (They are not investigative journalists) Papadoupolos takes what you regard as influential, from those four, "Trump fed" disinfo sources...
Quote
Sara Carter's Passion For Truth - Sean Hannity
https://hannity.com/media-room/real-journalism-sara-carters-passion-for-truth/
Feb 27, 2018 - Get Carter was the name of the film, an old crime drama starring ... the Washington Examiner's Byron York and Chuck Ross of the Daily Caller.

Quote
PAPADOPOULOS OBTAINED HIS BELIEFS ABOUT JOSEPH MIFSUD FROM THE DAILY CALLER, LA REPUBLICA, FOX NEWS, AND OTHER UNSOURCED REPORTS

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/10/20/breaking-george-papadopoulos-says-fbi-should-have-surveilled-him-more-than-they-did/
BREAKING! GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS SAYS FBI SHOULD HAVE SURVEILLED HIM MORE THAN THEY DID
October 20, 2019/24 Comments/in 2016 Presidential Election, Mueller Probe /by emptywheel

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/10/16/the-frothy-right-gets-more-excited-about-an-eight-year-old-phone-than-contemporaneous-metadata/
THE FROTHY RIGHT GETS MORE EXCITED ABOUT AN EIGHT YEAR OLD PHONE THAN CONTEMPORANEOUS METADATA
SIDNEY POWELL AND BILL BARR HAVE GOTTEN THE FROTHY RIGHT MORE WORKED UP...

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/10/12/the-presidents-joint-defense-agreement-with-the-russian-mob/
THE PRESIDENT’S JOINT DEFENSE AGREEMENT WITH THE RUSSIAN MOB
JOHN DOWD'S DESPERATE ATTEMPT TO MAKE THE UKRAINE SCANDAL GO AWAY THE SAME...

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/10/07/bill-barr-risks-becoming-george-papadopoulos-coffee-boy/
BILL BARR RISKS BECOMING GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS’ COFFEE BOY
IT'S CRAZY ENOUGH THAT BILL BARR TREATS GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS' HOAXES SERIOUSLY....
Quote
I’m not a conspiracy theorist. Everything I’ve ever tweeted or — probably, if that’s what you’re referring to, it’s just backed by things I’ve read in the media. George Papadopoulos

First, I testified against both Downer and Mifsud a year ago to help launch Durham’s investigation. Now, the fruit of that accurate testimony is exposing the global nature of the attempt to set up the 2016 campaign and interfere in the democratic process. George Papadopoulos

There has only been one roadmap that clearly identifies what AG Barr and John Durham are investigating abroad, it’s all in my book. George Papadopoulos

In this post, https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/10/02/bill-barr-risks-becoming-joseph-mifsuds-new-coffee-boy/
I noted that Attorney General Bill Barr had put himself in the role of an FBI line Agent and flown to Italy not so he could interview Joseph Mifsud — and so obtain information that might be useful in assessing the credibility of his Russian-backed lawyer’s claim that Mifsud actually worked for Western, not Russian, intelligence — but instead to sit in a room and watch a movie, the taped deposition made by Mifsud’s Russian-linked lawyer.

Not only had Barr flown to Italy without obtaining the real ask, a face-to-face interview, but he did so chasing claims that were laundered through one of the frothy right’s stenographers
https://dailycaller.com/2018/10/24/george-papadopoulos-congress-suspicious-interactions/
into the mouth of George Papadopoulos for his October 24, 2018 Congressional testimony,
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5781512/Transcript-of-George-Papadopoulos-interview-by.pdf
provenance so unbelievably sketchy it would be shameful for Rudy Giuliani to chase the conspiracy theory, much less the Attorney General of the United States of America on the taxpayer dime.

As a reminder, to try to help him avoid prison for lying to the FBI, Papadopoulos’ lawyers explained that in 2016,
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4808119/Sentencing-Memorandum.pdf
“To say George was out of his depth would be a gross understatement” and described his pursuit of ties to Russia as part of his campaign work as an attempt to, ” be at the center of a globally significant event.” They explained that he “lied, minimized, and omitted material facts” about the Russian investigation, “Out of loyalty to the new president and his desire to be part of the administration.” This is not a man you’d think anyone in government would take seriously.

I think, because Papadopoulos has so little credibility outside of the frothy right, traditional journalists largely ignored the role of Papadoulos and his Congressional testimony
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5781512/Transcript-of-George-Papadopoulos-interview-by.pdf
 until it had already taken hold of the entire frothy right. That’s changing. Vox has a good post on Papadopoulos’ centrality in Bill Barr’s treasure hunt, and NYT tried
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/06/us/politics/italy-russia-mifsud-trump.html
to debunk the Italian part of it pertaining to Mifsud.

But I’d like to look at one more detail, that makes Papadopoulos’ obvious lack of credibility even more non-existent.

Most of the conspiracy theories he floated in his testimony didn’t even come from his first-hand information. Rather, they’re stuff he read, often from known stenographers for the frothy right, relying on sources that are fairly obviously either close to the President and/or close to Russian and Ukrainian sources who shouldn’t be trusted; where he relied on credible journalists, he misrepresented it. Papadopoulos, then, serves not as witness. Instead, he’s just an empty vessel being used by others to carry a concocted story.

PAPADOPOULOS OBTAINED HIS BELIEFS ABOUT JOSEPH MIFSUD FROM THE DAILY CALLER, LA REPUBLICA, FOX NEWS, AND OTHER UNSOURCED REPORTS
One of the few exceptions is that Papadopoulos believes that Alexander Downer recorded the conversation in which Papadopoulos told the Australian that someone had told him Russia had dirt on Hillary they were going to release material on Hillary to help the Trump campaign because Downer holds his phone when he speaks.
(Mr. Meadows is a congressman and leader of the Freedom Caucus, the most extreme right group in congress, with 37 member of 435 in the House of Rep.)
Quote
You know, at that time, I’m like, Wow, all these, you know, very senior diplomats and people want to just meet this 28-year old young aid who just joined the campaign, I think, or month or so before. But why not, you know. They could send it back to the campaign that I just met with the Australian diplomat. What I’m going to tell you right now is what I remember telling special counsel directly to their face, too. One, I felt like Alexander Downer — first, I felt the meeting was completely controlled. That he was sent to meet me by some entity or some organization, and that he was recorded my conversation with him. And what do I mean by recording my conversation? If I had my phone I would show you of how strange this character was acting. I sat down with him and he pulls his phone out and he starts holding it like this towards me.

Mr. Meadows. Here.

Mr. Papadopoulos. Here, I’ll show you. And I told the special counsel this over a year ago. I’m sitting down within 5 or 6, 7 minutes of meeting this person, I’m talking and he goes like this to me, stone-faced, just holding his phone like this towards me. And I didn’t know what to think except do I tell him Will you stop recording me, or, What are you doing? Because it was just, it just left such an indelible memory of how this individual was acting that I never forgot it, and I felt that he was recording it and the meeting was controlled. So he held his phone up like this.

But Papadopoulos believes that Downer is a spy, not a diplomat, because of something he read (he doesn’t say what).
Quote
Mr. Meadows. That’s correct. And so following up on the question from my colleague here about transcripts. Was there any other time that you felt like that you might have been recorded or surveilled in a manner, as you’re looking back on it now? Obviously, at the time, you might not have been aware of it. Is there any time that you said, well, you know, this just doesn’t feel right? Can you share that with the committee?

Mr. Papadopoulos. Certainly, sir, and thank you for your kind words. I was — let’s go to the Alexander Downer meeting, this Australian person, who I’m —

Mr. Meadows. And for the record, this is the Australian diplomat as it has been reported, at least, the Australian diplomat, Mr. Downer.

Mr. Papadopoulos. Mr. Downer, that’s right, who, it’s my understanding, is probably the top diplomat in Australia, or was before he retired. He was the head of what I think is the equivalent of the CIA in Australia for around 17 years. I think that’s what I read about him. Anyway, he’s a very unknown person, this isn’t counselor at the Australian embassy in London, okay. [my emphasis]
As for the source of that information, Papadopoulos told Congress he held two incompatible beliefs, both beliefs he took from something he read. Most critically, the belief that got Bill Barr to fly to Italy — that Mifsud actually works for Western, not Russian, intelligence — Papadopoulos cited to a Daily Caller article
https://dailycaller.com/2018/10/24/george-papadopoulos-congress-suspicious-interactions/
which itself relayed claims Mifsud’s Russian-backed lawyer made he had read the day before.
Quote
Q Okay. So, and Mifsud, he presented himself as what? Who did he tell you he was?

A So looking back in my memory of this person, this is a mid-50’s person, describes himself as a former diplomat who is connected to the world, essentially. I remember he was even telling me that, you know, the Vietnamese prime minister is a good friend of mine. I mean, you have to understand this is the type of personality he was portraying himself as.

And, you know, I guess I took the bait because, you know, usually somebody who — at least in Washington, when somebody portrays themselves in a specific way and has credentials to back it, you believe them. But that’s how he portrayed himself. And then I can’t remember exactly the next thing that happened until he decided to introduce me to Putin’s fake niece in London, which we later found out is some sort of student. But I could get into those details of how that all started.

Q And what’s your — just to kind of jump way ahead, what’s your current understanding of who Mifsud is?

A My current understanding?

Q Yeah. A You know, I don’t want to espouse conspiracy theories because, you know, it’s horrifying to really think that they might be true, but just yesterday, there was a report in the Daily Caller from his own lawyer that he was working with the FBI when he approached me. And when he was working me, I guess — I don’t know if that’s a fact, and I’m not saying it’s a fact — I’m just relaying what the Daily Caller reported yesterday, with Chuck Ross, and it stated in a categorical fashion that Stephan Roh, who is Joseph Mifsud’s, I believe his President’s counsel, or PR person, said that Mifsud was never a Russian agent.

In fact, he’s a tremendous friend of western intelligence, which makes sense considering I met him at a western spying school in Rome. And all his interactions — this is just me trying to repeat the report, these are not my words — and when he met with me, he was working as some sort of asset of the FBI. I don’t know if that’s true or not. I’m just reporting what my current understanding is of this individual based on reports from journalists.

[snip]

Q And then at what point did you learn that, you know, he’s not who he said he was?

A Like I said, I don’t have the concrete proof of who this person is. I’m just going with reports. And all I can say is that I believe the day I was, my name was publicly released and Papadopoulos became this person that everyone now knows, Mifsud gave an interview to an Italian newspaper. And in this newspaper, he basically said, I’m not a Russian agent. I’m a Clinton supporter. I’m a Clinton Foundation donor, and that — something along those lines. I mean, don’t quote me exactly, you could look up the article yourself. It is in La Republica. And then all of a sudden, after that, he disappears off the face of the planet, which I always found as odd.

[snip]

I guess the overwhelming evidence, from what I’ve read, just in reports, nothing classified, of course, because I’m not privy to anything like that, and considering his own lawyer is saying it, Stephan Roh, that Mifsud is a western intelligence source. And, I guess, according to reports yesterday, he was working with the FBI

Meanwhile, Papadopoulos explains away Joseph Mifsud’s mention of Hillary’s emails weeks later to a comment that Andrew Napolitano made on Fox News the day before (not, as he claimed to believe in the same testimony, that it was a big Deep State set-up), even though Papadopoulos believed Mifsud really believed in the emails at the time and didn’t know of the Napolitano link. Papadopoulos also mischaracterizes what he believed about Mifsud at that moment and even later, given his public emails from the time.
Quote
A Yeah. So my understanding, my current memory of this meeting was that he invited me to the Andaz Hotel in London by Liverpool Street Station, I guess on April 26, 2016. And at this meeting, he was giddy, you know, like he had something he wanted to get off his chest. And he tells me that the Russians have thousands of Hillary Clinton emails. I never heard the word DNC.

[snip]

A And I’ve said this on TV, and I’m saying it here, I never heard the words DNC, Podesta, anything like that. I just heard “the Russians have thousands of Hillary Clinton’s emails.” And at that time, and we could look at the records, people were openly speculating about that, too. I think even Judge Napolitano on Fox News, the day before I met with Mifsud on April 25th was openly speculating the same thing. So my impression when he told me this information at the time was he is validating rumors. Because I didn’t feel that I heard something so different, like Democratic National Committee emails, WikiLeaks, I didn’t hear anything like that. So yeah, it was an interesting piece of information, but you know, by that point you have to understand, he had failed to introduce me to anyone of substance in the Russian Government. So he failed to do that, but now all of a sudden he has the keys to the kingdom about a massive potential conspiracy that Russia is involved in. So that was my mindset when he told me this.

[snip]

Q So to the best of your understanding now, you know, how do you believe Mr. Mifsud would have known about these — you know, the Russians having these Clinton emails?

A My understanding now?

Q Uh-huh. A Well, one —

Q Or at the time or now, but —

A Well — well, one, as I stated, but I don’t want to be exactly quoted, I believe the day before Joseph Mifsud told me about this issue, I believe April 25, 2016, Judge Andrew Napolitano was on Fox News openly speculating that the Russians have Hillary’s emails. I don’t know if that’s true or not. Somebody told me that that’s what happened. I’m not sure. That he might have heard it from there. He might have been telling the truth that he heard it from people in Russia. He might have been working for Western intelligence like the evidence now suggests he was. I don’t know. That’s not my job to figure it out.

[snip]

A My current memory makes me believe that he was stating it as a fact, and I took it as well.

Q And did you believe him at the time?

A At the time, yeah.
So to sum up the source of Papadopoulos’ congressional testimony regarding his beliefs about his interactions with Mifsud and then Downer, he’s relying on:

Excuses relying on a Fox News host
A Daily Caller story that relies on a Russian backed lawyer
Some other unsourced claim
Downer’s posture and mannerisms

PAPADOPOULOS OBTAINED HIS BELIEFES ABOUT THE STEPHAN HALPER MEETINGS FROM TWITTER, NYT, AND JOHN SOLOMON
A similar pattern emerges regarding his interactions with Stephan Halper, the FBI informant sent with a presumed undercover Agent using the name Azra Turk to interview Papadopoulos about how he learned of the Hillary emails. Papadopoulos’ testimony to Congress is that he believes Azra Turk’s name is fake (it almost certainly was) because of something he read on Twitter

Quote
So I get there. I get to London. And he introduces — or he does not introduce me to, but I can’t remember exactly how I came into contact with his assistant, this young lady named Azra Turk, which I think is a fake name, by the way. My —

Mr. Meadows. Why do you believe it’s a fake name?

Mr. Papadopoulos. Reading — reading Twitter and people saying that Azra in Turkish means pure and then Turk. So unless she has the name of pure Turk.

He testified he believes Turk asked him about hacking because he read it in the NYT (the NYT actually shows Halper asked about this).

Mr. Papadopoulos. Just who I am, my background in the energy business, because everyone was curious about my background in the energy business in Israel. And that’s another thing we’ll get to about what I think why I had a FISA on me, but I don’t know. She then apparently — I don’t remember it, I’m just reading The New York Times. She starts asking me about hacking. I don’t remember her actually asking me that, I just read it in The New York Times. Nevertheless, she introduces me the next time to Stefan Halper.

Mr. Meadows. She asked you about hacking?

Mr. Papadopoulos. I don’t remember it. I just — I think I read that particular —

Mr. Meadows. You’ve read that?

Mr. Papadopoulos. Yes, that’s what I — I think I read it in The New York Times.

And Papadopoulos believes (correctly) there is a transcript of these conversations and (falsely) that it is exonerating because of what John Solomon wrote days earlier.

Mr. Papadopoulos. I’m sure the transcript exists and you’ve probably read it, so I don’t want to be wrong on exactly what he said. But —

Mr. Meadows. You say a transcript exists. A transcript exists of that conversation?

Mr. Papadopoulos. That’s I guess what John Solomon reported a couple days ago.

Mr. Meadows. So are you aware of a transcript existing? I mean —

Mr. Papadopoulos. I wasn’t aware of a transcript existing personally.

Mr. Meadows. So you have no personal knowledge of it?

Mr. Papadopoulos. I had no personal knowledge, no.

Mr. Meadows. But you think that he could have been recording you is what you’re suggesting?

Mr. Papadopoulos. Yes.

Mr. Meadows. All right. Go ahead.

Mr. Papadopoulos. And after he was throwing these allegations at me, I —

Mr. Meadows. And by allegations, allegations that the Trump campaign was benefiting from Hillary Clinton emails?

Mr. Papadopoulos. Something along those lines, sir. And I think I pushed back and I told him, I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. What you’re talking about is something along the lines of treason. I’m not involved. I don’t know anyone in the campaign who’s involved. And, you know, I really have nothing to do with Russia. That’s — something along those lines is how I think I responded to this person.
As I have noted,
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/08/06/the-transcript-the-frothy-right-claims-exculpates-george-papadopoulos-instead-damns-him/
if the transcript reflects what Papadopoulos says it does, it shows that he lied about ongoing connections to Russia; he had been planning a secret meeting with Russia for precisely that date during the summer, and would boast of a pro-Russian interview to Mifsud some weeks later (which got him fired from the campaign). Plus, Papadopoulos’ claim an action — optimizing the WikiLeaks releases, which Roger Stone was doing even as Papadopoulos gave this answer — would amount to treason explains why he would lie to the FBI about any knowledge four months later. That is, the transcript, if it says what Papadopoulos says, shows the deceit of a guilty conscience, not exoneration.

PAPADOPOLOUS CITES AN ARTICLE QUOTING HIS LAWYER SAYING HIS ARREST WAS TOTALLY LEGAL TO CLAIM IT WAS RUSHED
In addition to citing his beliefs about the Israeli that almost got him charged with being a foreign agent of Israel to a misreading of a WikiLeaks cable, Papadopoulos does this most hysterically in attempting to respond to Mark Meadows’ clear demands that he claim the circumstances of his arrest (and a border search of his briefcase the likes of which happens all the time to brown people who aren’t even being arrested) was improper. At the beginning of a colloquy where Papadopoulos repeatedly stops short of using the inflammatory language Meadows tries to feed him,, the former campaign aide suggests a Politico story suggested a deviation from the norm on arrests.

Quote
So everything was done in a very — I had never been arrested before. I didn’t know that was a normal procedure. But reading certain articles about my arrest in Politico and other newspapers, it seems like there was some sort of rush to arrest me and —

[snip]

Mr. Meadows. So you didn’t say, Why are you arresting me?

Mr. Papadopoulos. The only thing I remember was something along the lines of — and I can’t remember if it was after I had the handcuffs on me that they told me this is what happens when you don’t tell us everything about your Russia contacts. But I don’t remember any formal charges, or them telling me You are under arrest for X, Y or Z. That, I don’t remember at all.

Mr. Meadows. They told you — I guess, they gave your Miranda rights?

Mr. Papadopoulos. I don’t remember that. I don’t remember that. I’m sure there might be the video or a transcript of what was going on. You have to understand, I had just come off a trans-Atlantic flight.

Mr. Meadows. Right.

[snip]

Mr. Meadows. So that’s your testimony. So they basically take your briefcase and they start searching it? Did they ask you permission to search it?

Mr. Papadopoulos. My memory is that they put me in the room at the airport, did not ask me for any permission whatsoever, and then they began to search through my briefcase in a very, quite violent manner.

Mr. Meadows. By “violent,” what do you mean, just ripping it —

Mr. Papadopoulos. Just opening it, like that, putting their hands and just digging around. That’s, I just didn’t understand what was going on.

Mr. Meadows. And they didn’t indicate what they were looking for?

Mr. Papadopoulos. I don’t remember them indicating anything, no. And I don’t remember them actually formally, I guess, looking through my bag until I — I can’t remember — after we went in a car to another facility where I was processed. It was very strange.

Mr. Meadows. So did they show you a warrant to search those things?

Mr. Papadopoulos. I didn’t —

Mr. Meadows. Did they have a warrant to search your —

Mr. Papadopoulos. I don’t remember any warrant. In fact, the whole situation was very, it seemed very rushed and very chaotic.

Mr. Meadows. So you’re telling me that they searched your personal property without a warrant prior to you coming through Customs?

Mr. Papadopoulos. That’s what I remember, yes, sir.

Here’s the Politico report. While reporting that the arrest was likely done in an attempt to shock Papadopolous, it also cites his own lawyer saying, “What they did was absolutely lawful,” [Thomas] Breen said. “If I had a complaint, you’d know about it. I’ve got a short fuse.”

MARK MEADOWS ALLOWED PAPADOPOULOS TO TELL A LESS DAMNING FAIRY TALE BY NEGLECTING TO GET BACKUP EMAILS FROM HIM FIRST
This charade, letting a witness testify to Congress not about what he personally knows, but what he read about himself, often what he read in propaganda outlets relying on sketchy sources, would be bad enough. It was made far, far worse because of a simple fact about the hearing: the Republicans who set it up (and this appears to have been run almost entirely by Mark Meadows) did not, first, demand that Papadopoulos provide the backup documents that would make such questioning even remotely worthwhile.

As a result, Papadopoulos responded to question after question that went to the substance of his sustained interest in working with Russia with vague claims about what he did and did not remember and a offer, instead, to share the emails that might pinpoint what he really knew and did. Over and over, he happens to tell a story that is less damning.

Whether out of forgetfulness or deceit, for example, Papadopoulos foreshortens two things about the campaign: first, the claimed date when the campaign started covering up its ties to Russia, which was July, not May.
Quote
Q You said also that you continued to suggest this Trump-Putin summit, but eventually, you found out that the campaign just wasn’t interested. Can you tell me the process by which you came to understand that the campaign wasn’t interested in setting up a Trump-Putin meeting?

A Yes. As I remember it, by the time Manafort took the helm of the campaign, I just emailed him, Are we interested in this or not? I think I forwarded to him an email from Ivan Timofeev where he’s asking for a letter to be signed by the campaign if this is a serious proposal or not, something like that. And I don’t think I ever received a response from Manafort. And you just put two and two together, no one’s interested, so stop it.

He also foreshortens the time he was in contact with Mifsud, which extended even after the election.

Quote
Q When was the last time you remember communicating with Professor Misfud?

A Off the top of my memory I think it was the summer of 2016.

Perhaps the most glaring instance of this, however, pertains to whether Walid Phares was involved in pursuing a secret meeting with Russia that would have taken place at the precise time Papadopoulos was in London getting interviewed by Stefan Halper. Papadopoulos answered a question about whether he discussed the secret meeting with Phares not by answering, but by saying he wasn’t sure it was in the emails.

Quote
Q You mentioned a number of emails where both of you would have been copied. Did you and Mr. Phares have any direct communication just the two of you?

A We met face to face at the TAG Summit. And then we obviously met at the March 31st meeting. And I can’t remember if we met another time in person or not. But we certainly were in correspondence for months over email.

Q Did you discuss your efforts to set up the Putin-Trump meeting with Mr. Phares?

A I’m not sure he was copied on those particular emails, but I could send whatever emails I have with him to the committee. It’s fine with me.

As the Meuller Report
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6002293/190322-Redacted-Mueller-Report.pdf
makes clear, very very damning details about precisely this topic were in Papadopoulos’ emails.

Quote
Papadopoulos remembered discussing Russia and a foreign policy trip with Clovis and Phares during the event.484 Papadopoulos’s recollection is consistent with emails sent before and after the TAG summit. The pre-summit messages included a July 11, 2016 email in which Phares suggested meeting Papadopoulos the day after the summit to chat,485 and a July 12 message in the same chain in which Phares advised Papadopoulos that other summit attendees “are very nervous about Russia. So be aware.”486 Ten days after the summit, Papadopoulos sent an email to Mifsud listing Phares and Clovis as other “participants” in a potential meeting at the London Academy of Diplomacy.487

This is what any hearing with George Papadopoulos should be about, details that would make any allegation that his claim, in mid-September, that he had nothing to do with Russia would be inculpatory, not exculpatory. But that’s not the hearing Mark Meadows decided to stage.

According to someone familiar with the aftermath of this hearing, Papadopoulos never did supply the emails he promised, at least not in a way such that they got shared with Democratic staffers.

PAPADOPOULOS TELLS CONGRESS THERE IS NO SUBSTANCE BEHIND ALLEGATIONS THAT THE MAIN SOURCE FOR HIS ALLEGATIONS MADE
The whole hearing was absurd, which is why it is all the more ridiculous that the Attorney General of the United States is running around the world treating these conspiracies as if they have merit.

But don’t take my word — or the public record — for it. Take the word of the hearing’s star witness, George Papadopoulos. He told Congress that there was no substance to the allegations that Stephan Roh, the Mifsud lawyer whose conspiracies Bill Barr is currently chasing, had made that he, Papadopoulos, was a western intelligence operative.
Quote
Q Are you aware that in a Daily Caller article, Mr. Roh has referred to you as a western intelligence operative?

A I wasn’t aware of that, but I was aware he wrote a book where he speculated that I could be that, but of course I don’t know this person beyond a couple of emails and phone calls, so, of course, he has no substance behind any allegations.
So on the one subject about which Papadopoulos claimed to have first hand knowledge here, he said Roh was making stuff up.

And yet, Bill Barr still treats Roh’s other allegations — the ones laundered through propaganda outlets — as true.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Walt Cakebread on October 21, 2019, 09:47:17 PM
I am tackling, in one post, the heaping helpin' "dumped" into this thread by Richard and Walt.... Hopefully, a "one stop, shop," post to shutdown CT, so far, unsupported in this thread, pro Trump Putin "stuff".

Imagine my reaction after reading posts of ideologically driven posters, in the grip of confirmation bias, who spend only a fraction of the time I devote to attempting to be and to stay informed. Embracing Trump/Fox/republican CT bs is a lazy-man endeavor or a hopelessly indoctrinated, self imposed paranoia.
In my humble but well-supported opinion, only one of these three posters is NOT regurgitating Trumpist, right wing, or (neither MSNBC or CNN corporate management is "left" wing) or center right corporate media (i.e., the majority of US for-profit news outlets). talking points.
From page 10 of 11, of recently released, bi-partisan US Senate Intelligence Committee report.:
In reality, Crowdstrike has had a hand investigating a number of high-profile hacking incidents, including the North Korean cyber-intrusion into Sony Pictures. But its work in 2016 for the Democratic National Committee brought the company to front pages worldwide....

Two days ago, Fox News "reporting," vs reality !VS:
Let us consider what "the four of us" might agree on, if anything. Jill Stein and the POTUS who selected Mike Flynn to be his National Security Advisor are either too clueless or lacking in self awareness to ever be seriously considered as qualified (reasonable) choices to vote for, for POTUS....
Then, after having gotten Flynn to finally take him up on consulting with his attorneys, but before they recessed, Sullivan sat Flynn down and asked prosecutor Brandon Van Grack if prosecutors had evaluated Flynn’s activities to see if his behavior rose to the level of “treasonous activity.” Van Grack responded by answering about the crime of treason.Flynn went off, consulted with his lawyers, and wisely decided the last thing he should do is let Sullivan sentence him while he was thinking of treason. When he came back, the first thing Sullivan did was correct that Flynn was not acting as a foreign agent while serving as National Security Advisor and explain that he did not think Flynn had committed treason, but wanted to know what Mueller’s thinking on uncharged crimes was.Now, I will be honest with you: I was screaming at Sullivan when I read this being tweeted out in real time, in part because I spend so much time arguing that Trump and his flunkies won’t be charged with treason because we’re not at war. I do think, in an effort to convey to Flynn just how reprehensible he believes his actions were, Sullivan got out over his skis. But I think his comments are far more defensible — and telling — than much of the commentary appreciates.

Here’s why.

First, even the docket makes it clear that there are a bunch of sealed documents that Sullivan has gotten, including an ex parte version of the government’s addendum describing Flynn’s cooperation. Sullivan started the hearing yesterday emphasizing that point, then returned to it after he had gotten Flynn to plead guilty again under oath.[/u]By yesterday morning, Emmet Sullivan probably became one of the few people outside Mueller’s team and his DOJ supervisors that understands the activities that Trump and his associates, including Flynn, engaged in from 2015 to 2017. He understands not just the significance of Flynn’s lies, but also how those lies tied to graft and conspiracy with foreign countries — countries including, but not limited to, Russia.

It should gravely worry the Trump people that Sullivan’s comments about whether Flynn’s behavior was treasonous came from someone who just read about what the Mueller investigation has discovered.

Now consider that, as part of his effort to understand how much benefit Flynn got from pleading guilty to one charge of false statements for his multiple lies, Sullivan and Van Grack had this exchange.
Van Grack not only says that Flynn could have been charged in that conspiracy to act as an unregistered foreign agent indictment, but that the lies he told were part of the indictment.

And in fact, this language in Flynn’s statement of the offense (which Sullivan read yesterday in court):

Became this language in the Bijan Kian and Ekim Alptekin indictment:
While there are other false statements alleged (presumably the ones Van Grack said Flynn was not implicated in), the EDVA indictment actually charges four counts of false statements, and one of those directly maps to the lie Flynn himself pled guilty to.

Side note: it’s worth mentioning that Rob Kelner — who is still Flynn’s lawyer — is the guy who submitted those false FARA statements, which means he may be the lawyer that will take the stand in the EDVA trial to attest to the lies on those forms. It’s Kelner who still has some cooperation with prosecutors to do, at least as much as Flynn.

Significantly, as I noted the other day, both the conspiracy and the foreign agents charges in the EDVA indictment say the conduct continued through March 2017, the date Flynn Intelligence Group filed false FARA filings, hiding the fact that they knew Turkey was behind the Fethullah Gulen project.

There’s a reason it gets charged that way, which is even more important for Flynn than for his co-conspirators (a reason that also played out in Paul Manafort’s case, in which he was charged for hiding his ties to Ukraine at a time when they would have impacted the Trump campaign).

The point of these registration crimes is that so long as you withhold full disclosure about your actions, you continue to lie to the federal government and the public about the significance of your actions. By filing a registration in March 2017 specifically denying what all the co-conspirators knew — that Flynn Intelligence Group was actually working for Turkey, not Ekim Alptekin’s cut-out Inovo — it prevented the public and the government from assessing the import of Flynn’s actions in trying to force DOJ to deem Gulen a terrorist who could be extradited to Turkey. And frankly, so long as Flynn continued to hide that detail, it made him susceptible to pressure if not blackmail from Turkey.

There’s a grammatical difference between Sullivan’s two comments. He first said that Flynn was “an unregistered agent of a foreign country, while serving as the National Security Advisor.” That was, technically, true. For the entirety of the time Flynn served as National Security Advisor, FIG had not admitted that it had actually been working directly for Turkey. Indeed, FIG continued to lie (and so remained unregistered) about that fact until December 1, 2017, when Flynn pled guilty.

As I’ll show in a follow-up post, it is critically important that Flynn continued to lie about whether he had been working directly for Turkey when he met with the FBI on January 24, 2017.

Sullivan’s follow-up used different grammar. Then, he said “Flynn [was not] acting as a foreign agent while serving in the White House.” That is also true. He was no longer secretly being paid by the government of Turkey to do things like slap his name on op-eds written by other people.

Still, even though he was no longer being paid to take specific actions requested by the government of Turkey, for the entire time he worked at the White House (and for more than eight months afterwards), his past work as an agent of a foreign government — as opposed to a foreign company cut-out — remained unregistered, undisclosed to the public.

With that in mind, I want to return to the specific exchange that Sullivan had. In response to his question about whether Flynn’s behavior amounted not to treason, but to treasonous activity, Van Grack at first says they did not consider treason, but then corrected himself.

All of this seems to be consistent with Mueller reviewing Flynn’s actions, reviewing statute, finding that Flynn’s behavior did rise to the standards described in 18 USC 951 (with which Van Grack said he could have been charged), but did not rise to treason (as it clearly did not). Van Grack explained that “in terms of other offenses, they were not sort of in consideration in our interfacing with the defendant,” which seems to admit that Flynn could have been charged with other crimes, but was not, because he cooperated.

This walkback, I’m convinced, is as much for the benefit of the prosecutors, who gave Flynn an unbelievable sweetheart deal, as it was for the sake of judicial restraint. Mueller is forgiving Flynn working in the White House while continuing to hide that he had, during the campaign, secretly and knowingly worked for a foreign government, in consideration of his cooperation unveiling other activities.

But legal standards aside, Sullivan — one of the only people who has read a summary of what Flynn provided in his cooperation — still could not hide his disgust about the conduct he knows far more about than we do.

I remain frustrated that Sullivan raised treason at all yesterday, as I spend a great deal of time tamping down discussion of treason; none of the Trump flunkies’ actions that have been thus far revealed reach treason.

But I think I’m beginning to understand what a big deal it was for Flynn to continue to lie about his service for Turkey, even aside from the disgust I share with Sullivan that anyone would engage in such sleazy influence peddling while serving as a key foreign policy advisor for a guy running for President.

Flynn did a lot of really sleazy things. There was no discussion yesterday, for example, about how he gleefully worked on cashing in with nuclear deals even while Trump was being inaugurated. The public lacks both a full accounting of his sleazy actions and full understanding of their import for national security.

Mueller’s team thinks Flynn’s cooperation has been so valuable that it should wipe away most punishment for those sleazy actions. Emmet Sullivan, having read a great deal of secret information, is not so sure.



Election Day, 2016:
Mr. Gulen and his supporters deny that, and depict him as a moderate more concerned with building thousands of schools than with toppling Turkey’s government. Mr. Gulen was once an ally of Mr. Erdogan, but they had a falling out.....

...RT is a brand of "TV-Novosti", an "autonomous non-profit organization", founded by the Russian news agency, RIA Novosti, on 6 April 2005.[1][8] During the economic crisis in December 2008, the Russian government, headed by Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, included ANO "TV-Novosti" on its list of core organizations of strategic importance of Russia.[9][10][11]

RT has been frequently described as a propaganda outlet for the Russian government[12] and its foreign policy.[13][14][15][16][17][18] RT has also been accused of spreading disinformation[18][19][20] by news reporters,[21][22] including some former RT reporters.[23][24][25] The United Kingdom media regulator, Ofcom, has repeatedly found RT to have breached its rules on impartiality and on one occasion found it had broadcast "materially misleading" content.[26][27][28][29] RT's editor-in-chief compared it with the Russian Army and Defence Ministry, and talked about it "waging the information war against the entire Western world."[30] In September 2017, RT America was ordered to register as a "foreign agent" with the United States Department of Justice under the Foreign Agents Registration Act. Under the act, RT will be required to disclose financial information.[31]...



Disclaimer: I prefer to err on the opposite side of what obviously benefits Putin and his poodles, Greenwald and... I read wikipedia "talk" pages because they display the competition of opinions and the quality of the support of the details that sustain in the actual wikipedia article.

If you perceive those politicians most pro-Putin are victims of American journalists reporting "fake news," possibly the core problem is not the reporting?

Tucker Carlson, John Solomon, Hannity sponsored Sara Carter, vs.....

It appears to me Rep. Gabbard was raised by a scoundrel.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mike_Gabbard
Talk:Mike Gabbard

....In a post-debate analysis, Maureen Linke and Eliza Collins at the Wall Street Journal found that hundreds of social media accounts with “bot-like traits” promoted information and content that sought to inflame racial divisions during the debates. They found that certain hashtags originated with conservative activists, but then it seemed like bots were helping to spread them.For example, on Tuesday, a user named Susannah Faulkner first shared the hashtag #DemDebateSoWhite, and then Ali Alexander, a Republican operative who sparked a racist birther-like campaign about Harris during the first round of debates, retweeted it. And on Wednesday, conservative commentator Terrence K. Williams started the #KamalaHarrisDestroyed hashtag after Harris’s onstage exchange with Gabbard.
In both instances, the Journal, citing data from analytics company Storyful, found that a high number of the accounts that interacted with and spread the tweets and hashtags had “bot-like characteristics.”...

May 19, 2019: Rep. Gabbard defends herself using a phrase made familiar by......despite having fifteen weeks to compose a defense without that phrase. :
[/quote]

I am tackling, in one post, the heaping helpin' "dumped" into this thread by Richard and Walt...


Huh..."Well said,  Jack   .... Is a heaping helpin?????     
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on October 21, 2019, 11:21:42 PM
.......
He's open and honest about what he got into. But who did, or does he work for?

Ok so when this whole Russiagate stuff began I remember Papadopoulos described as a 'lower ranking member' of Trump's campaign. Trump called him 'Low Level'. “Few people knew the young, low level volunteer named George, who has already proven to be a liar,” from a tweet https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/925335577217683456

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/31/us/politics/trump-manafort-papadopoulos-mueller.html

From those Papadopoulos tweets you can see yourself there's no way this was some lower level member of the team, especially if you are one of the nations fighting for control of Cyprus' gas. This guy was potentially advising the next POTUS. Cyprus has massive significance for European energy independence. Plus all their shady stuff with passports and money laundering. Right now Europeans are hooked on Russian gas - a BIG security problem. Surely someone told Trump this? State dept briefing? Do candidates get briefings on these things? I presume Papadopoulos has no state dept or previous government links, and yet he could have been brokering some significant future energy decisions in a very tricky area of the world right now. BIG BIG national importance for a lot of people. Papadopoulos introduced Trump to the Egyptian leader just 2 months before the election. Trump may, or may not -- which would be pretty shocking -- but it appears Papadopoulos knew the significance of what is going on between Cyprus>Turkey>Israel>Egypt>Russia>USA (and throw into that group all the Europeans). This is kinda ridiculous that Trump walked into this mess. Massive stakes, and he seems clueless!

And then when you throw into the mix Gen. Flynn's link to the Turkish government, this is big time potential conflict of interests. Gen. Flynn is wide open to compromise and leverage as an undeclared foreign agent for Turkish interests, in such an important area dealing with Turkey/Russia/Cyprus/Israel/Egypt

To me, it makes sense why both Flynn and Papadouplos were being monitored by *lets say* the IC. Plural agencies 'spying' on them. *And I say that as someone who initially thought Trump was right, that he, and his team were spied on* But, Papadouplos & Flynn, they both have major conflicts of interests. Papadouplos' are unknown? he seems to have randomly got himself into a position where he might have been given a Trump government position -- but yet his background is unverifiable.Surely he had to be monitored, for his own safety! Flynn is extremely wreckless. The guy must have known more about what was going on right now with Cyprus and Turkey>Russia, it would be ridiculous, he, a former head of DIA never declared his interests -- kinda worrying that there are people like Flynn in governments exposing nations to blackmail based decisions.

It's going to be interesting to see if Bidens are tangled up in this Cyprus/Ukrainian corruption, as Papadouplos alleges. I think he might know the truth, more than many. Which might explain Obama wanting to cover Biden's ass. The Trump team conveniently gave Obama's government enough concerns to investigate Flynn and Papadouplos, plus Manafort. They made it easy to be framed with Russia through Papadouplos and Fynn's pretty serious compromising connections.

There was smoke. As I think Brennan or Clapper said, about Russia and Trump's campaign. But the fire might also be for Biden/Obama's crew!

The experiment of having 'outsiders', like Trump, in government, has failed. Having someone without experience, plus his crap advisors around him, it's got him sucked into making many poor decisions. Manafort, Wilbur Ross, and Papadouplos, Flynn, all tangled up in Cypriot shenanigans. Obama was definitely right when he advised Trump not to hire Flynn. Flynn is so reckless -- Obama probably meant 'for all our sakes' don't hire Flynn. Knowing Flynn's conflict of interests would eventually also shed light on the dodgy dealings of the Biden's and whatever happened on Obama's watch elsewhere.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/us/politics/hunter-biden-ukraine.html

Obama wont be endorsing Biden! guaranteed!

And I wont be type the name Papadopoulos for a while!

....continued reply to Robert Reeves, from my last post... Robert, I kind of misread your post, sorry. I saw so much "George P" and I think I misunderstood your core points....
Quote
...And I wont be type the name Papadopoulos for a while!..
I hope I never have to type that name again. "George P." is fine. Why is it the Georges with last names like DeMohrenschildt?

Sam Clovis "ran" George P. during the campaign. He was a conservative IOWA radio talk show host and climate change denier.
a nice asset if you are trying to win the Iowa caucuses. Clovis was available because he initially supported Rick Perry, who fizzled out, early.
Quote
https://siouxcityjournal.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/former-trump-adviser-and-iowa-political-figure-sam-clovis-battling/article_839de09f-3976-5679-b7ec-e7ce7daa2b5e.html
Former Trump adviser and Iowa political figure Sam Clovis battling serious health issues
Bret Hayworth Jun 19, 2019

...The probe revealed Clovis had communicated with George Papadopoulos, a former Trump campaign foreign policy adviser who later pleaded guilty to making false statements to the FBI about his attempts to connect the campaign with Russian officials in 2016. As part of Mueller's investigation, Clovis testified before a grand jury.

Clovis retained prominent attorney Victoria Toensing amid the investigation. In a 2017 statement, Toensing said she (Clovis?) was "being polite" when encouraging Papadopoulos to meet with Russian officials, adding the campaign had a "strict rule that no person could travel abroad as a representative of the campaign." Clovis could not stop an American citizen from traveling abroad “in his personal capacity,” Toensing said....

Quote
https://www.ontheissues.org/International/Sam_Clovis_Energy_+_Oil.htm
Obama's "Climate Resilience Fund" just redistributes wealth
President Obama is set to announce a new initiative called a "Climate Resilience Fund," estimated to cost American taxpayers $1 billion. "It seems the President is a little late in realizing that climate resilience ought to be a topic of interest for his administration. Communities across America struggle each day to build resilience. How cynical of the President to use 'Climate Change' as the impetus to redistribute more wealth," said Sam Clovis, conservative candidate for the US Senate.
"Serious research and hard work have gone into building resilience in communities around the country," continued Clovis. "The President's plan is nothing more than a grandstand play to take attention away from his failed administration. Of course, one has come to expect such deception and diversion from this administration. It is hard to believe that so many in whom we have entrusted our governance could be so truthfully challenged."

Source: CaffeinatedThoughts.com on 2014 Iowa Senate race , Feb 18, 2014
There is speculation this young George's behavior is intended to draw a presidential pardon, to ingratiate himself back into the Trump wing of the republican party by providing republican legislators and Atty General Barr with a narrative exonerating Russian meddling in the 2016 and in elections, going forward. I don't see Barr doing Putin's bidding as a prime objective, but I don't put it past republicans supporting Trump, Trump himself, or George P. Once you are compromised, you are intimidated into doing what you're instructed to do. Wealth and political influence seems to be what they all live to claw in more of.

The Russian "government," as recently and currently constituted, has been described as an organized criminal enterprise. Guliani appears to be fronting for a group with a primary goal of "mining" profits out of Ukraine, as Manafort and Gates were doing, and it centers around gas and oil, parallel to what Putin and Rex Tillerson were allied for a time, in doing.

Rick Perry was "wetting his beak," under the auspices of Trump-Guliani.

Quote
Quote
https://cbsaustin.com/news/nation-world/report-rick-perry-pushed-to-install-texas-political-donor-on-board-of-ukraine-gas-company
Report: Rick Perry pushed to install Texas political donor on ...
cbsaustin.com › news › nation-world › report-rick-perry-pushed-to-install-...
Oct 7, 2019 - 6, 2019, file photo, Energy Secretary Rick Perry speaks at the California GOP fall convention in Indian Wells, Calif. Perry pushed Ukraine's ...
Rick Perry's Focus on Gas Company Entangles Him in ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/07/us/politics/rick-perry-ukraine.html
Oct 7, 2019 - WASHINGTON — When Energy Secretary Rick Perry led an American ... Mr. Perry's focus during the trip on Ukraine's energy industry was in keeping .... Mr. Bleyzer, a Republican donor, has proposed gas deals with Naftogaz ...

From Rachel Maddow's new book:
Quote
....Vladimir Putin presides over a metaphysical unforced error: the tragic scuppering of one of the potentially great nations in the world. Russia has been assiduously engineered into a sclerotic dictatorship; its economy wholly dependent on its one indispensable industry, which is by design almost solely monopolized by its big, lousy, noncompetitive state-controlled oil and gas companies, which are all run by spies or thugs or judo guys, and almost exclusively for the benefit of Vladimir Putin and his global aims. Their companies are not exactly soaring on the strength of their R&D prowess. And there’s a good reason for that. No one, in any major Russian enterprise, has been allowed to succeed or prosper legitimately and on his own terms. Anyone who rose to any station must owe that ascent to Putin, and answer to him for it. That has been doubly true in the energy sector, which has been Putin’s crucial lever of power. No one in that industry held on to money or power or property except with his say-so and on his ugly terms. If you were trying to become a clean businessman, running a capable and profitable energy company outside the control of the Kremlin, you were going to lose that business. Goodbye, Yukos. And maybe do a prison term. Hello, Mikhail Khodorkovsky. Alternatively, if you were a businessman or a crony who played along and served a useful purpose, you’d be rewarded with stolen goods. And you’d better stay loyal or you could do a prison term, too—look, you’ve got stolen goods! That’s how Russia’s premier natural gas company, Gazprom, earned its reputation as “the worst managed company on the planet.” And that’s how the most Putin-loyal yes-man in Russia, Igor Sechin, became one of the most powerful figures in Russia. And how his company, Rosneft, became the behemoth of the country’s oil industry—the Death Destroyer of Worlds, eating Yukos and Bashneft and any other cash-making morsels. It is not incidental that as an oil company Rosneft sucks. It wasn’t as if it got big and powerful by streamlining its supply chains and inventing stuff. Rosneft sucks all the time, but especially lately, when—because of sanctions against Russia for its terrible international behavior—it no longer has access to all that nifty Western Arctic- and shale-drilling technology it needs to reap that increasingly hard-to-get Russian oil. The country, meanwhile, has eroded into a stultifying economic sinkhole for average Russians. “Despite receiving $1.6 trillion from oil and gas exports from 2000 to 2011, Russia was not able to build a single multi-lane highway during this time. There is still no interstate highway linking Moscow to the Far East,” Karen Dawisha wrote in her richly detailed 2014 book, Putin’s Kleptocracy. “The inability of well-trained young graduates to succeed as entrepreneurs and innovators in Russia has stimulated emigration and plans to emigrate.” Dawisha went on to quote a pollster in Moscow on the plight of young Russians: “They have nowhere to go, nothing to do, and nothing to hope for.” “The lack of adequate medical care produces five times more deaths from cardiovascular disease among women in Russia than in Europe,” the professor wrote. “More Russian women die annually from domestic violence than the number of soldiers the USSR lost in the entire Afghan war. For Russian men, the situation is even grimmer. Poor workplace and road safety standards, plus high rates of suicide and homicide combine with the negative health effects of high alcohol consumption to make life especially precarious….According According to the World Health Organization, the life expectancy of a fifteen-year-old male is three years lower in Russia than in Haiti.” Let that sink in for a second: if you’re a fifteen-year-old boy, your life expectancy is three years longer if you are in Haiti than in Russia. Russia under Putin has become warped and stunted—a gigantic multi-continental country of 150 million souls, living on an economy considerably smaller than Italy’s, with male life expectancy so low that you might think the national pastime really was Russian roulette. This is a manifestation of a recognizable and widespread phenomenon—the Resource Curse—which has happened over and over again, with varying degrees of despair, from the Gulf of Guinea to the southern Great Plains. But Russia added a whole new twist to the Curse, a twist that helps explain the international order of things right now—or the lack thereof. When the Resource Curse takes hold in a country as big and influential and aggressive as twenty-first-century Russia, it turns out to be the entire world’s problem. What has happened to Russia is like when a faraway humanitarian concern morphs from a charity cause into an international terrorism threat. Russia’s Resource Curse has become a malignant tumor spreading through the rest of the world. Unlike Soviet-era Russia, which used its oil and gas to provide for its own energy needs and the needs of its worldwide communist satellites, modern petro-state Russia has to sell its fuel on the global market without the benefit of a separate Soviet checkout lane. Which went pretty okay for a while. As recently as the George W. Bush administration, there were those in the United States who thought that Putin might be the great hope for a new Middle East–free global energy supply line. But as Putin’s Russian Federation revealed itself to be a robustly corrupt, authoritarian regime happily committed to securing its own survival by force, it repeatedly and increasingly put itself into rogue state territory, and that ultimately screwed up its ability to play in the global markets as if it were some kind of normal country. Putin’s best-known exports list has lately comprised the most dreaded organized crime syndicates on earth, money laundering on such a massive industrial scale that it can bring down whole national cornerstone banks in any part of the globe, exotic assassinations, rogue-state-friendly weapons systems, illegal out-of-uniform military incursions, and the first seizure of another country’s territory in Europe since World War II. That sort of activity can get in the way of a country’s global business operations, on the odd chance that there’s anyone on the face of the globe who sees it as their responsibility to punish and isolate the kinds of international bad actors that invade their neighbors, shoot down civilian airliners, and send intelligence officers armed with nerve agent to assassinate their exiles in British cathedral towns. Russia’s way out of this existential conundrum has had two components: one business, one pleasure. The business part is tidy. With the broken-nosed, no-necked ex-spies perched atop the management structure of Rosneft and Gazprom, Russia’s not exactly running a world-class operation when it comes to the production of its one indispensable commodity. Russia’s economic future therefore depends on Putin making deals with major international oil and gas companies who can be counted on to understand his imperatives and to not care at all about ethics and governance governance and geopolitical consequences of their cozying up to the Kremlin. Those kinds of deals aren’t just beneficial to the Russian economy; they’re critical necessities for Putin’s one-track plan for twenty-first-century Russia. And it turns out that as long as Putin is honoring the “sanctity of contract” and implementing friendly tax laws, industry leaders from the West have shown little hesitation in making those deals. That’s the business part. The pleasure part is less tidy, but presumably way more fun for its practitioners: if the problem is that Russia’s behavior is too outré to be accepted in the global economy, then change the expectations for what counts as outré. Be the leveler. Corrupt other countries. Gain control over the former Soviet states in the near abroad by owning their politicians, by controlling the range of possibilities their people are allowed to choose for themselves. Ruin exemplars of governance and responsive democracy. Support separatism and the dissolution of bonds and treaties and Western norms wherever they’re vulnerable. Become internationally powerful through force (when you can muster it) or sabotage. Cheating is now Russia’s most viable avenue in world affairs. And you can mark the precise time when all other avenues were sealed off: the immediate aftermath of Putin’s shocking seizure of Crimea and his drive to forcibly annex much of resource-rich eastern Ukraine. Back in 2014, there was still enough U.S.-led traditional Western governance in the world to punish him with seriously harsh economic sanctions....

Maddow, Rachel. Blowout (p. 334). Crown/Archetype. Kindle Edition.

Why does Trump push so hard to reinsert Russia into the former G-8, when Russia has only the 20th largest economy, not the 8th, or even 10th largest? The common theme seems to be to erode the system of laws and eliminate all accountability, both the legal system and press freedom are now under sustained attack, in the U.S., and in the wider world. Trump-Putin push to expand the G-7 is a similar handicap to what we witnessed just last week with Turkey, a NATO "ally", Turkey's quasi-dictator is free to "punch up" but the other NATO allies cannot openly war with "allied" Turkey. Inviting Russia into an Trump pushed, expanded G-7 is all about withdrawing sanctions against Russia and its oligarchs. They retain Crimea and everyone continues to gnaw away at Ukraine and other former Soviet satellites.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Paul May on October 22, 2019, 05:10:09 AM
Which party do you identify with @Paul? if you don't mind me asking. Is this just another Democrat party advertisement? It looks similar to the several posts, of late, we've seen here from Tom Scully dressed up as JFK research just to attack Trump. Tom's posts are always good, not complaining. But the agenda is obvious. Or maybe you're simply an R' 'NEVER TRUMPER'.

USA is in civil war. It seems to me to be, anyway. So I understand the anxiety American's are displaying. It's kinda funny, though, seeing American's attach blame, being so precise, having the answer to the current state of politics there. It's either 'Trump' or 'Hillary' or their supporters ... or Obama personally... or Brennan ... Comey ... Clapper ... CIA ... FBI ... Alex Jones ... Russiagate ... Ukrainians ... Bidens. It's just another election cycle -- more wacky accusations, more lies, more cover ups, more media lies, and now more accusations of whose supporter's conspiracy theories are wackiest? Which side of the political divide produces the most cranks? Be honest, there is a mesmerizing level of conspiracy theories swirling around on both sides. You are living in a clown show simulation. USA is at an all time low. A joke. And the same level of head[F]ckery going on there, could be argued is seen in the UK, at the moment. I think you are in denial if you actually think what's happened, of late, is simply all Trump's fault. The same blame game is leveled at Brexit.

I don't believe there is an exclusivity to any political side producing really out there crazies. I think every body, equally, is being screwed over, and played by an elite group of individuals with all the tools to make sure nothing ever comes to light of what really happens. The more I see the more I am convinced nothing is even real. Almost all of our political realities are fed to us by a completely insane group of people in the media that do not think twice about fabricating the truth to suit themselves, or their pay masters.

I have the solution to all this - Term limits.

Get rid of all these crazy politicians and start anew. The level of toxicity in politics is because the same faces, the same tactics, the same corruption, it ain't ever going away. Not unless the public are prevented from aiding this circular toxic cycle. Nothing will change It's hilarious when you think about it. Trying to level conspiracy theories as being consumed only by crazies, right now. There are some pretty legit serious questions needing answers re the integrity of our politicians and government agencies.

For instance, I seriously doubt it was ONLY Trump supporters wondering what the hell was going on with Jeffery Epstein. Pretty sure that one has crossed all political persuasions, races, sexes, status'.
I’m an independent.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on October 22, 2019, 06:47:12 PM
Now you can receive right wing, pro-Trump-Putin talking points served up by.... Jim DiEugenio.

What a poor, hollowed out joke the Ed Forum has become. And, if this "expert" has so little discernment about this, and about who Jim Garrison actually was, why does he enjoy the respect extended to him by "likeminded" readers?

Quote
https://variety.com/2019/tv/global/agc-television-picks-up-worldwide-oliver-stones-jfk-destiny-betrayed-1203368818/#article-comments
AGC Television Picks up Worldwide on Oliver Stone’s ‘JFK: Destiny Betrayed’
By JOHN HOPEWELL

Comments

OCTOBER 15, 2019 AT 6:53 AM
Tom Scully says:

I like Jim DiEugenio personally, and I think he usually does good work,
but in this instance, Jim is actually protecting Nicholas B. Lemann,
author of the 1992 article published in GQ Magazine attacking, Garrison
and co-screenplay writers of “JFK the Movie, Oliver Stone and Zachary
Sklar. Sklar also served as editor of Garrison’s autobiography. Garrison
failed to reveal to Sklar or to author Joan Mellen a detail Clay Shaw had
learned in March, 1967, from former CIA agent and Shaw Trademart employee,
David G. Baldwin, III, that Garrison’s wife, “Liz” Ziegler Garrison, was
first cousin of Baldwin and his brother, Edward, and godchild of David.
David G. Baldwin’s wife was step-sister of WDSU outside counsel Garrison
informed the FCC in a June, 1967, letter, was distributing Central
Intelligence Agency funds to attorneys representing subjects of interest
in Garrison’s investigation.
OCTOBER 17, 2019 AT 7:15 AM
Tom Scully says:

Mark, (Mick) In their book, “JFK: The Book of the Film : the Documented Screenplay,” Oliver Stone & Z. Sklar push back against Nicholas B. Lemann, the strongest critic, of their film at least four times. DiEugenio has refused to even discuss “the problem.” Lemann’s step-aunt, step-sister of his father, Thomas, the daughter of his step-grandmother, Mildred Crumb Lemann, was married to former covert CIA officer David G. Baldwin. Baldwin told Shaw, by letter, in March, 1967, that he was godfather and first cousin (cousin, as was his brother, Edward) of Garrison’s wife, “Liz” Ziegler. Shaw, Lemann, and Garrison kept all of that a secret. Click on my “sig” to read entire interview. From a 2006 interview of author Joan Mellen, by Rex Bradford:
“JOAN: – when Baldwin was present, he was a CIA asset, his brother worked for the International Trade Mart and Clay Shaw, David Baldwin, and these, these are CIA people….”

"George P.'s" undoing is directly in the lap of this man. Through internal diplomatic channels, he reported to his own government, as he should have, the drunken ramblings of Trump campaign "covefe" boy, George P. With no fact supported defense, "team Trump", ginned up face saving propaganda, mashing it up and spitting it out as something sinister and exculpatory for Trump, and DiEugenio runs with it.
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Downer

Alexander John Gosse Downer AC (born 9 September 1951) is a former Australian politician and diplomat who was leader of the Liberal Party from 1994 to 1995, Minister for Foreign Affairs from 1996 to 2007, and High Commissioner to the United Kingdom from 2014 to 2018.....

Quote
On 21 October, 2019 James DiEugenio said:
Look, Mr. Wheeler proved long ago that almost every person that George P met abroad was an FBI informer or asset.  (He actually thinks they were really CIA, but I will only go as far as FBI)

......
Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/10/07/bill-barr-risks-becoming-george-papadopoulos-coffee-boy/
BILL BARR RISKS BECOMING GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS’ COFFEE BOY
IT'S CRAZY ENOUGH THAT BILL BARR TREATS GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS' HOAXES SERIOUSLY....
Quote
George Papadopoulos:
I’m not a conspiracy theorist. Everything I’ve ever tweeted or — probably, if that’s what you’re referring to, it’s just backed by things I’ve read in the media. George Papadopoulos
......
MARK MEADOWS ALLOWED PAPADOPOULOS TO TELL A LESS DAMNING FAIRY TALE BY NEGLECTING TO GET BACKUP EMAILS FROM HIM FIRST
This charade, letting a witness testify to Congress not about what he personally knows, but what he read about himself, often what he read in propaganda outlets relying on sketchy sources, would be bad enough. It was made far, far worse because of a simple fact about the hearing: the Republicans who set it up (and this appears to have been run almost entirely by Mark Meadows) did not, first, demand that Papadopoulos provide the backup documents that would make such questioning even remotely worthwhile.

As a result, Papadopoulos responded to question after question that went to the substance of his sustained interest in working with Russia with vague claims about what he did and did not remember and a offer, instead, to share the emails that might pinpoint what he really knew and did. Over and over, he happens to tell a story that is less damning.

Whether out of forgetfulness or deceit, for example, Papadopoulos foreshortens two things about the campaign: first, the claimed date when the campaign started covering up its ties to Russia, which was July, not May.
Quote
Q You said also that you continued to suggest this Trump-Putin summit, but eventually, you found out that the campaign just wasn’t interested. Can you tell me the process by which you came to understand that the campaign wasn’t interested in setting up a Trump-Putin meeting?

A Yes. As I remember it, by the time Manafort took the helm of the campaign, I just emailed him, Are we interested in this or not? I think I forwarded to him an email from Ivan Timofeev where he’s asking for a letter to be signed by the campaign if this is a serious proposal or not, something like that. And I don’t think I ever received a response from Manafort. And you just put two and two together, no one’s interested, so stop it.

He also foreshortens the time he was in contact with Mifsud, which extended even after the election.

Quote
Q When was the last time you remember communicating with Professor Misfud?

A Off the top of my memory I think it was the summer of 2016.
Perhaps the most glaring instance of this, however, pertains to whether Walid Phares was involved in pursuing a secret meeting with Russia that would have taken place at the precise time Papadopoulos was in London getting interviewed by Stefan Halper. Papadopoulos answered a question about whether he discussed the secret meeting with Phares not by answering, but by saying he wasn’t sure it was in the emails.
Quote
Q You mentioned a number of emails where both of you would have been copied. Did you and Mr. Phares have any direct communication just the two of you?

A We met face to face at the TAG Summit. And then we obviously met at the March 31st meeting. And I can’t remember if we met another time in person or not. But we certainly were in correspondence for months over email.

Q Did you discuss your efforts to set up the Putin-Trump meeting with Mr. Phares?

A I’m not sure he was copied on those particular emails, but I could send whatever emails I have with him to the committee. It’s fine with me.
As the Mueller Report
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6002293/190322-Redacted-Mueller-Report.pdf
makes clear, very very damning details about precisely this topic were in Papadopoulos’ emails.
Quote
Papadopoulos remembered discussing Russia and a foreign policy trip with Clovis and Phares during the event.484 Papadopoulos’s recollection is consistent with emails sent before and after the TAG summit. The pre-summit messages included a July 11, 2016 email in which Phares suggested meeting Papadopoulos the day after the summit to chat,485 and a July 12 message in the same chain in which Phares advised Papadopoulos that other summit attendees “are very nervous about Russia. So be aware.”486 Ten days after the summit, Papadopoulos sent an email to Mifsud listing Phares and Clovis as other “participants” in a potential meeting at the London Academy of Diplomacy.487
This is what any hearing with George Papadopoulos should be about, details that would make any allegation that his claim, in mid-September, that he had nothing to do with Russia would be inculpatory, not exculpatory. But that’s not the hearing Mark Meadows decided to stage.

According to someone familiar with the aftermath of this hearing, Papadopoulos never did supply the emails he promised, at least not in a way such that they got shared with Democratic staffers.

PAPADOPOULOS TELLS CONGRESS THERE IS NO SUBSTANCE BEHIND ALLEGATIONS THAT THE MAIN SOURCE FOR HIS ALLEGATIONS MADE
But don’t take my word — or the public record — for it. Take the word of the hearing’s star witness, George Papadopoulos. He told Congress that there was no substance to the allegations that Stephan Roh, the Mifsud lawyer whose conspiracies Bill Barr is currently chasing, had made that he, Papadopoulos, was a western intelligence operative.
Quote
Q Are you aware that in a Daily Caller article, Mr. Roh has referred to you as a western intelligence operative?

A I wasn’t aware of that, but I was aware he wrote a book where he speculated that I could be that, but of course I don’t know this person beyond a couple of emails and phone calls, so, of course, he has no substance behind any allegations.
So on the one subject about which Papadopoulos claimed to have first hand knowledge here, he said Roh was making stuff up.

And yet, Bill Barr still treats Roh’s other allegations — the ones laundered through propaganda outlets — as true.

Quote
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 22, 2019, 07:42:11 PM
Is Paul trying to imply that LNs are Hillary supporting Leftwing Kooks?

Please, NO.. I cannot believe a Bill Brown would be that far over the edge... Please.. NOT BILL.

And John Mytton...surely Mytton, the guy with all the logical reasons lined up neatly and numbered 1 thru 53 just like Bugliosi, his mentor, is NOT possible to have lost his mind enough to vote for Socialism Marxism..

note here: Im NOT shaming anyone here, dont misunderstand me. I respect your poltical views even IF you are Kooks drinking the Koolaid, but I just cant see this stark definition of CTs as being ONLY Trump supporters and LNS being ONLY  anti Trump.. This is a LEAP of spectulation imo, and I am surprised Paul would even bother with such speculations.

Paul.. are you SURE its really YOU?? Maybe the Mandela effect has altered the timeline again, and you are not quite the same Paul? :)

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Steve Logan on October 23, 2019, 08:49:43 PM
And in spite of all this harrumphing look at the three assclowns that the Dems are offering up. Trump , the pompous ass that he is , will win in a landslide. We'll have many more Vagina hat parades and mental breakdowns from the snowflakes. Please Dems you gotta come up with something better than what is out there. Your presenting a total of SUCK.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on October 23, 2019, 09:03:35 PM
And in spite of all this harrumphing look at the three assclowns that the Dems are offering up. Trump , the pompous ass that he is , will win in a landslide. We'll have many more Vagina hat parades and mental breakdowns from the snowflakes. Please Dems you gotta come up with something better than what is out there. Your presenting a total of SUCK.

LOL ! Media pushing line of a Klobacher "rise". They interviewed attendees at her meetings (too small to be called rallies...)
They all looked older than me, and I've had to give up beer, as you remarked you have. I'm all in on the idea of a fine bourbon with a flomax "chaser".

Bernie is older than Klobacher's supporters. I was a third grader in 1960, but even to me, JFK sure looked like he had it going, on, the first Beatle, for ordinary housewives. Even so, his father had to arrange for every corpse in Illinois to cast a vote, to get his son across the line! Clinton and Jennifer Flowers beat the Bush-Perot ticket in '92.

Steve, this is not our world, hasn't been in quite awhile. I remember arguing on Dailykos, in 2008, to the edge of receiving death threats, that a black nominnee with the middle name, Hussein, had a snowball's chance in hell of "gittin 'er done". Didn't understand how in 2008 or what happened in 2016. You know the old saying, at a poker table...if you can't spot who the mark is, chances are......
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on October 23, 2019, 11:09:13 PM
And in spite of all this harrumphing look at the three assclowns that the Dems are offering up. Trump , the pompous ass that he is , will win in a landslide. We'll have many more Vagina hat parades and mental breakdowns from the snowflakes. Please Dems you gotta come up with something better than what is out there. Your presenting a total of SUCK.

Here here...comrade.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Robert Reeves on October 24, 2019, 11:16:26 PM
We get what we deserve.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bN6TTyxs/papadoppoulos1.png)

Looks like the George P self publicity machine is thinking about running for office.

He's retweeted that about 3 times lol.

@Tom that was kinda weird you brought up George de Mohrenschildt. I literally laughed my ass off you typed that.

"The Surreal Life of George Papadopoulos" @The Washington Post was kinda what came to mind when you said that. Name dropping tools and social climbers. Both birds of a feather.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/magazine/wp/2019/05/20/feature/the-surreal-life-of-george-papadopoulos/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/magazine/wp/2019/05/20/feature/the-surreal-life-of-george-papadopoulos/)

Quote
In person, he came across as warm, oddly guileless and eager to please. He made boastful claims. (“I was on a first-name basis with Netanyahu for four years.”) He made ingratiating claims. (“As an individual I’m more comfortable with Washington Post people like you than with, I dunno, the Daily Caller.”) And then there was his central claim: that the entire federal investigation of Trump had its origins in dirty tricks masterminded by a group of foreign and U.S. intelligence entities.

In the Mueller report it mentions George's links to a far right Zionist persona. One which paid him 10k. That he should have declared himself, a lobbyist ... for Israel.

This clown is no better than the Katie Hill he wants to replace. Trump's judgement is lower than a snakes belly.


Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 26, 2019, 01:34:48 AM
Trump being sworn in:

'I swear to not tell the truth,
anything but the truth,
so help me Satan'
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on October 26, 2019, 03:47:24 PM
And in spite of all this harrumphing look at the three assclowns that the Dems are offering up. Trump , the pompous ass that he is , will win in a landslide. We'll have many more Vagina hat parades and mental breakdowns from the snowflakes. Please Dems you gotta come up with something better than what is out there. Your presenting a total of SUCK.
I'm afraid so.

Trump is a conman, a grifter, a liar and fraud but his damage to the country can mostly be fixed. When he leaves, his ugliness largely goes with him.

But the Democrats are true believers who will cement their extremism in the government. It'll take decades to undo their damage. These "woke" people are just bizarre. Trump looks reasonable next to them.

So our options are a conman and grifter or an ideologue. The latter will do far more damage to the country.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Paul May on October 28, 2019, 12:58:55 AM
56 years after the event, the conspiracy crowd still takes the position “we can’t prove conspiracy because the conspirators won’t let us”. Remarkable.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on October 28, 2019, 02:44:55 AM
I'm afraid so.

Trump is a conman, a grifter, a liar and fraud but his damage to the country can mostly be fixed. When he leaves, his ugliness largely goes with him.

But the Democrats are true believers who will cement their extremism in the government. It'll take decades to undo their damage. These "woke" people are just bizarre. Trump looks reasonable next to them.

So our options are a conman and grifter or an ideologue. The latter will do far more damage to the country.

A lot of handwringing. "Let's leave everything just as it was on January, 19, 2017," offers no greater appeal to the majority of non-republican leaning voters than the alternative you are critical of. There is no risk supporting Elizabeth Warren vs any other 2020 candidate. She is not Bernie, Biden, Buttigieg, or even owned by the banks. She will not be a 78 yr old nominee coping with a recent heart condition, a confused 77 yr old living in the 20th century, or a 38 yr old, modest sized city mayor with a mixed record and a bright future. The economy is fading at the end of the longest expansion ever charted. Warren is a reasonable choice expected to fairly (in a deliberative, practical way) distribute the pain without interfering with recovery because her consumer advocacy results in stimulative effect opposite giving an unpaid for tax cut primarily to the ten percent owning 80 percent of stock shares and cutting the income tax of the corps. that issued those shares.

Stimulative policy redistributes wealth to the classes who, by necessity spend every penny of income, as opposed to a deficit fueled tax cut increasing the price of stock by corp. tax cut and the resulting windfall spent on stock buy backs, increasing wealth of top ten percent and lower taxes on that increased wealth.

Wealth concentration is more acute now, than the facts indicated from 2016 Fed Res Triennial Wealth Study.
Deficit spending is $1 trillion+ annually, vs $677 billion in fiscal year ended 09/20/17. A lot of money is spent to discredit candidate Warren in reaction to her approach and policy proposals. One in particular, that a single payer system cutting out the net profits and two thirds of overhead expenses diverted by private health insurers instead of offsetting cost of care, would be unaffordable. Two facts, 16 percent, $160 million of every $1 billion spent for private health insurance would be eliminated from factors influencing the price of private health insurance, vs the 20 percent gross profit currently retained by insurers offering ACA compliant health insurance policies, and.....

(http://jfkforum.com/images/FederalReserve2016SCFWealthDecileChart.jpg)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Steve Barber on October 28, 2019, 02:58:21 PM

 


    Why, Duncan, do you allow these people to post anti Trump posts in a JFK Assassination forum? 

  You Trump haters all need serious, serious help.  How dare you call Trump supporters "mentally ill", when you haters fully display your own mental illness and obsession with the man!   

   There's no escape from Trump haters!    Not even in JFK assassination newsgroups and forums!  Tony Marsh is the McAdams newsgroup Trump hating mentally ill poster.  I come here, and I see it's happening here, as well, but by a different Trump hater.
It's a sickness that they will not admit!
   
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on October 28, 2019, 08:37:51 PM
 


    Why, Duncan, do you allow these people to post anti Trump posts in a JFK Assassination forum? 

  You Trump haters all need serious, serious help.  How dare you call Trump supporters "mentally ill", when you haters fully display your own mental illness and obsession with the man!   

   There's no escape from Trump haters!    Not even in JFK assassination newsgroups and forums!  Tony Marsh is the McAdams newsgroup Trump hating mentally ill poster.  I come here, and I see it's happening here, as well, but by a different Trump hater.
It's a sickness that they will not admit!
   

The sickness belongs to his sycophants who still supports a lying treasonous criminal. His own people are spilling the beans against all his crimes. Enjoy!
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on October 28, 2019, 08:40:21 PM
We get what we deserve.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bN6TTyxs/papadoppoulos1.png)

Looks like the George P self publicity machine is thinking about running for office.

He's retweeted that about 3 times lol.

@Tom that was kinda weird you brought up George de Mohrenschildt. I literally laughed my ass off you typed that.

"The Surreal Life of George Papadopoulos" @The Washington Post was kinda what came to mind when you said that. Name dropping tools and social climbers. Both birds of a feather.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/magazine/wp/2019/05/20/feature/the-surreal-life-of-george-papadopoulos/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/magazine/wp/2019/05/20/feature/the-surreal-life-of-george-papadopoulos/)

In the Mueller report it mentions George's links to a far right Zionist persona. One which paid him 10k. That he should have declared himself, a lobbyist ... for Israel.

This clown is no better than the Katie Hill he wants to replace. Trump's judgement is lower than a snakes belly.

A criminal russian stooge wants to run for Congress. I'm sure the trumpturds would cast a vote.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on October 28, 2019, 08:48:39 PM
What I find most amusing are those who dismiss claims as the product of a "conspiracy theory" while themselves advocating outlandish conspiracy theories.  Like "Russian collusion" and Jill Stein being a "Russian asset."  Kooks are not limited to the right or left.  There are plenty to go around.  The anti-vaxers are a great example.

Jill Stein is most definitely a Russian asset. She had business in Russia and attended dinners with Putin. Russian bots targeted Bernie Sanders voters on Facebook and several Democratic districts. She was also using Kremlin talking points during the election. As for Russian collusion, Trump's people met with Russians over 100 times and all the criminals who were indicted and went to prison from his campaign were all heavily involved with Russia. Trump attempted to alter the 2020 election with Ukraine and now is going to be impeached over it, he was doing the same thing with Russia in 2016. The only reason  Mueller couldn't do anything was because of a ridiculous DOJ memo that says a "sitting president can't be indicted". Nothing is written in the Constitution that a president can't.       
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on October 28, 2019, 09:17:20 PM
 


    Why, Duncan, do you allow these people to post anti Trump posts in a JFK Assassination forum? 

  You Trump haters all need serious, serious help.  How dare you call Trump supporters "mentally ill", when you haters fully display your own mental illness and obsession with the man!   

   There's no escape from Trump haters!    Not even in JFK assassination newsgroups and forums!  Tony Marsh is the McAdams newsgroup Trump hating mentally ill poster.  I come here, and I see it's happening here, as well, but by a different Trump hater.
It's a sickness that they will not admit!
   

       These people simply can Not help themselves. In the South the apt expression would be, "They ate up with it". Hard to imagine their conniption fits if Trump gets re-elected.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 29, 2019, 12:38:49 AM
 


    Why, Duncan, do you allow these people to post anti Trump posts in a JFK Assassination forum? 

  You Trump haters all need serious, serious help.  How dare you call Trump supporters "mentally ill", when you haters fully display your own mental illness and obsession with the man!   

   There's no escape from Trump haters!    Not even in JFK assassination newsgroups and forums!  Tony Marsh is the McAdams newsgroup Trump hating mentally ill poster.  I come here, and I see it's happening here, as well, but by a different Trump hater.
It's a sickness that they will not admit!
   

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on October 29, 2019, 02:55:18 AM
 


    Why, Duncan, do you allow these people to post anti Trump posts in a JFK Assassination forum? 

  You Trump haters all need serious, serious help.  How dare you call Trump supporters "mentally ill", when you haters fully display your own mental illness and obsession with the man!   

   There's no escape from Trump haters!    Not even in JFK assassination newsgroups and forums!  Tony Marsh is the McAdams newsgroup Trump hating mentally ill poster.  I come here, and I see it's happening here, as well, but by a different Trump hater.
It's a sickness that they will not admit!
   

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
JFK

Ask not what our country can do for you, ask what your country can publically do to get me re-elected.
Trump


Colbert/Tillerson are wrong......the man has not attained that level. Crisis time for GOP.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 29, 2019, 02:55:52 AM
so does all this mean that
1. LNs are anti Trump and that CTs are pro Trump?
2. LNs are big government, Government knows best?
3. LNs are gullible enough to believe MSN like CNN and MSNBC?
4. LNs believe math, cauliflower, and the American Flag are racists items?
5. LNs are okay with Google/Facebook/Apple technocracy engaged in censorship ?
6. LNs are globalists, open borders, no more wall, Trump or USA at all?

I sure HOPE not, because that would be very disappointing and sad, given how well some LNs can construct what appears to be logical reasons for their belief that the conclusion of the WC report was correct and that there was no conspiracy and just a lone Marxist supporting, Castro liking, Lee Harvey Oswald whose amazing connections to VIPs like George DeMorhenshild are merely "coincidence" :-\ ???


Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on October 29, 2019, 03:21:31 AM
Trump’s Conspiracy Theories Target the Mentally Vulnerable

While the conspiracy theory crowd — who predominantly support Donald Trump and crackpot allies like Alex Jones and the shadowy QAnon — may appear to just be an odd quirk of modern society, some of them may suffer from psychological illnesses that involve paranoia and delusions, such as schizophrenia, or are at least vulnerable to them, like those with schizotypy personalities.

The link between schizotypy and belief in conspiracy theories is well-established, and a recent study published in the journal Psychiatry Research has demonstrated that it is still very prevalent in the population. The researchers found that those who were more likely to believe in outlandish conspiracy theories, such as the idea that the U.S. government created the AIDS epidemic, consistently scored high on measures of “odd beliefs and magical thinking.” One feature of magical thinking is a tendency to make connections between things that are actually unrelated in reality.

Donald Trump and media allies target these people directly. All one has to do is visit alt-right websites and discussion boards to see the evidence for such manipulation.

YOU SURE HAVE SOME REAL NEAT FRIENDS ON YOUR SIDE

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 29, 2019, 06:33:04 AM
Trump has the best words... according to him

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on October 29, 2019, 06:44:19 AM
Trump has the best words... according to him


The reality at this point is that we know elected Republicans have chosen Trump over country, exactly when will they choose self over Trump.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on October 29, 2019, 03:38:12 PM
The reality at this point is that we know elected Republicans have chosen Trump over country, exactly when will they choose self over Trump.

    Not going to get into what You do or do Not know about Repubs. Politics is Not your strong suit. Stick with what You know and are good at.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 29, 2019, 03:51:22 PM
Have they impeached the MF yet?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on October 29, 2019, 04:08:09 PM
Have they impeached the MF yet?

   Not yet. He is going to get: (1) A Fair Trial, and (2) Hanging in the morning
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Richard Smith on October 29, 2019, 07:29:54 PM
If JFK was alive today he would be kicked out of the Democrat party for being too conservative

Not to mention JFK's physical condition, laundry list of drugs taken for those medical conditions including amphetamines, and treatment of women.  All of which were kept secret or JFK outright lied about during his campaign.  The latter might not have been as big a factor in the 1960s as it is today but JFK would never have been elected had his medical condition and corresponding drug use been made public.  When your doctor coined the terminology "Dr. Feelgood" it is not a good sign for the guy who had his finger on the nuclear button.  Imagine if the media today discovered that Trump was taking the same drugs as JFK.  They would invoke the 25th Amendment.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on October 29, 2019, 09:15:53 PM
If JFK was alive today he would be kicked out of the Democrat party for being too conservative

Bogus right wing talking point.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on October 29, 2019, 09:17:19 PM
And in spite of all this harrumphing look at the three assclowns that the Dems are offering up. Trump , the pompous ass that he is , will win in a landslide. We'll have many more Vagina hat parades and mental breakdowns from the snowflakes. Please Dems you gotta come up with something better than what is out there. Your presenting a total of SUCK.

The local town drunk walking the street could beat Benedict Donald who is on his way to being impeached and indicted.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Bill Chapman on October 29, 2019, 09:36:21 PM
Not to mention JFK's physical condition, laundry list of drugs taken for those medical conditions including amphetamines, and treatment of women.  All of which were kept secret or JFK outright lied about during his campaign.  The latter might not have been as big a factor in the 1960s as it is today but JFK would never have been elected had his medical condition and corresponding drug use been made public.  When your doctor coined the terminology "Dr. Feelgood" it is not a good sign for the guy who had his finger on the nuclear button.  Imagine if the media today discovered that Trump was taking the same drugs as JFK.  They would invoke the 25th Amendment.

Nuclear button football: The End of civilization in-a-briefcase

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on October 29, 2019, 09:42:39 PM
The local town drunk walking the street could beat Benedict Donald who is on his way to being impeached and indicted.

        The "local town drunk" does stand a better chance of defeating Trump than Joe Biden. Biden and his loose upper plate will have voters under 40 yrs old staying home on election day. Joe gives Trump a free ride to a 2nd term.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on October 29, 2019, 09:44:10 PM
 


    Why, Duncan, do you allow these people to post anti Trump posts in a JFK Assassination forum? 

  You Trump haters all need serious, serious help.  How dare you call Trump supporters "mentally ill", when you haters fully display your own mental illness and obsession with the man!   

   There's no escape from Trump haters!    Not even in JFK assassination newsgroups and forums!  Tony Marsh is the McAdams newsgroup Trump hating mentally ill poster.  I come here, and I see it's happening here, as well, but by a different Trump hater.
It's a sickness that they will not admit!
   
Hey, you leave "Little Tony Marsh" alone !!!  He coulda been a contender........ if he ran against Al Smith.  Yes, he's THAT old !!!
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on October 29, 2019, 10:50:57 PM
Imagine if the media today discovered that Trump was taking the same drugs as JFK.  They would invoke the 25th Amendment.

 :D Didn't you know that Heir Drumpf has been addicted to uppers for decades? He was snorting lines of adderall and popping sudafed like they were candy on the set of the Apprentice. He was a notorious coke head in the 80s & 90s.

Do you recall when his agents raided his doctor's office to confiscate all his medical records? His doctor (drug dealer) complained that the "only drug I prescribed him was some propecia."  Sure.

At one of his rallies he was slurring and blathering on incoherently and sweating like a pig with huge dilated pupils, obviously goofy to the gills. Then he started tripping balls and swatting at invisible flies. He must get good and f***ed up before every show and over medicated for that one.

So are all you Drumpfers okay that your dear leader is in a constant state of amphetamine induced psychosis, which was probably originally prescribed for him to counteract his attention deficit disorder, his narcissistic personality disorder, his autism, the Dunning Kruger syndrome and his psychopathism, his sexual predation, his delusions of Oligarchy, his amoral and immoral behavior, his total corruption and his constant, non-stop, pathological BULLSHITTING that he spews out every frickin day even when the truth is his friend? Why do you Drumpfers believe a single word that comes out of his hamburger hole?

If the Drumpfers that drank the orange koolaid think a psychotic self proclaimed stable genius living in a drug induced alternate reality and hanging on by a thread in a desperate state of paranoia with his tiny finger on the big button is a good bet to run the world, then you are truly among his base of Deplorables.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on October 29, 2019, 11:53:20 PM
        The "local town drunk" does stand a better chance of defeating Trump than Joe Biden. Biden and his loose upper plate will have voters under 40 yrs old staying home on election day. Joe gives Trump a free ride to a 2nd term.
:D

Benedict illegally tried to collude with Ukraine to make up a phony scandal against Biden since Biden wipes him out in every poll, including his own internal polling. More damaging testimony came out today from Colonel Vindman who said this is obvious Quid Pro Quo and put our country in jeopardy for a national security risk. Benedict Donald will be impeached and then indicted for treason. Neo con John Bolton will be testifying against him too.

Did you hear the World Series crowd chant "Lock Him Up" when Benedict Donald was at the game? The noise level registered the highest decibel mark. People want this traitor gone.   
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on October 29, 2019, 11:55:45 PM
:D Didn't you know that Heir Drumpf has been addicted to uppers for decades? He was snorting lines of adderall and popping sudafed like they were candy on the set of the Apprentice. He was a notorious coke head in the 80s & 90s.

Do you recall when his agents raided his doctor's office to confiscate all his medical records? His doctor (drug dealer) complained that the "only drug I prescribed him was some propecia."  Sure.

At one of his rallies he was slurring and blathering on incoherently and sweating like a pig with huge dilated pupils, obviously goofy to the gills. Then he started tripping balls and swatting at invisible flies. He must get good and f***ed up before every show and over medicated for that one.

So are all you Drumpfers okay that your dear leader is in a constant state of amphetamine induced psychosis, which was probably originally prescribed for him to counteract his attention deficit disorder, his narcissistic personality disorder, his autism, the Dunning Kruger syndrome and his psychopathism, his sexual predation, his delusions of Oligarchy, his amoral and immoral behavior, his total corruption and his constant, non-stop, pathological BULLSHITTING that he spews out every frickin day even when the truth is his friend? Why do you Drumpfers believe a single word that comes out of his hamburger hole?

If the Drumpfers that drank the orange koolaid think a psychotic self proclaimed stable genius living in a drug induced alternate reality and hanging on by a thread in a desperate state of paranoia with his tiny finger on the big button is a good bet to run the world, then you are truly among his base of Deplorables.


That's why the moron always sniffs through one of his scripted speeches or when he goes off the rails at one of his hate rallies. He also paints his face orange since he has a skin condition attributed to his years of pill popping.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on October 30, 2019, 12:12:03 AM
    Not going to get into what You do or do Not know about Repubs. Politics is Not your strong suit. Stick with what You know and are good at.

I already made my point. We will see if the Senate Republicans hold in due course won't we ;D

If I am wrong, won't be the first time.

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on October 30, 2019, 12:14:30 AM
   Not yet. He is going to get: (1) A Fair Trial, and (2) Hanging in the morning

You do know "the trial" occurs in the Senate.....right?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on October 30, 2019, 07:27:34 AM
Bogus right wing talking point.
Is there an argument in there? Your comment is so creative.
Nothing intelligent to say so you stick to a real talking point.
Wow! Identity politics. You are a bright one
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on October 30, 2019, 08:23:53 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/fkHtZjL/ABF67-B89-B6-F9-4-F1-B-8740-9-DEAEE7-F93-D5.jpg)

All the President's men.......perfect.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Richard Smith on October 30, 2019, 01:14:34 PM
:D Didn't you know that Heir Drumpf has been addicted to uppers for decades? He was snorting lines of adderall and popping sudafed like they were candy on the set of the Apprentice. He was a notorious coke head in the 80s & 90s.

Do you recall when his agents raided his doctor's office to confiscate all his medical records? His doctor (drug dealer) complained that the "only drug I prescribed him was some propecia."  Sure.

At one of his rallies he was slurring and blathering on incoherently and sweating like a pig with huge dilated pupils, obviously goofy to the gills. Then he started tripping balls and swatting at invisible flies. He must get good and f***ed up before every show and over medicated for that one.

So are all you Drumpfers okay that your dear leader is in a constant state of amphetamine induced psychosis, which was probably originally prescribed for him to counteract his attention deficit disorder, his narcissistic personality disorder, his autism, the Dunning Kruger syndrome and his psychopathism, his sexual predation, his delusions of Oligarchy, his amoral and immoral behavior, his total corruption and his constant, non-stop, pathological BULLSHITTING that he spews out every frickin day even when the truth is his friend? Why do you Drumpfers believe a single word that comes out of his hamburger hole?

If the Drumpfers that drank the orange koolaid think a psychotic self proclaimed stable genius living in a drug induced alternate reality and hanging on by a thread in a desperate state of paranoia with his tiny finger on the big button is a good bet to run the world, then you are truly among his base of Deplorables.

That is quite an unhinged rant.  How about a factual scenario?  Captain of a naval ship that failed to maintain an adequate look out in a battle zone which resulted in the death of crew members.  Sound familiar?  Any other person in that situation would have been court martialed and likely sent to the brig in disgrace.  But JFK's father was rich and influential.  Thus creating the myth of PT 109 heroism out of what was actually dereliction of duty. 
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 30, 2019, 02:09:19 PM
Speaking of unhinged rants...
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Goth on October 30, 2019, 02:15:01 PM
That is quite an unhinged rant.  How about a factual scenario?  Captain of a naval ship that failed to maintain an adequate look out in a battle zone which resulted in the death of crew members.  Sound familiar?  Any other person in that situation would have been court martialed and likely sent to the brig in disgrace.  But JFK's father was rich and influential.  Thus creating the myth of PT 109 heroism out of what was actually dereliction of duty.

disgusting.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Richard Smith on October 30, 2019, 02:46:00 PM
disgusting.

Great rebuttal.  Full of specifics.  The facts:  JFK was Captain of PT-109. While in a battle zone his small, mobile PT boat was run over by a large Japanese destroyer.  A big ship!  There was no adequate watch or this would never have happened.  Crew members died.  But JFK's father used his influence to turn this into a heroic act for political purposes.  Those are just facts.  Anyone else would have been put in the brig in disgrace.  JFK's own brother Joe said it best:

 What I really want to know is where the hell were you when the destroyer hove into sight, and exactly what were your moves?”
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on October 30, 2019, 02:51:14 PM
That is quite an unhinged rant.  How about a factual scenario?  Captain of a naval ship that failed to maintain an adequate look out in a battle zone which resulted in the death of crew members.  Sound familiar?  Any other person in that situation would have been court martialed and likely sent to the brig in disgrace.  But JFK's father was rich and influential.  Thus creating the myth of PT 109 heroism out of what was actually dereliction of duty.

It was a cloudy, moonless night and there was fog.

The destroyer was travelling at a fairly high rate of speed, and its running lights were off.

The PTs in that area had been ordered to operate under radio silence at that time.

PT 109 was travelling slowly on one engine so as to not create a phosphorescent wake that would give it away.

PT 109 had only 10 seconds to get up to speed and get out of the destroyer's way.

"Dereliction of duty" my you-know-what.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on October 30, 2019, 02:54:44 PM
Great rebuttal.  Full of specifics.  The facts:  JFK was Captain of PT-109. While in a battle zone his small, mobile PT boat was run over by a large Japanese destroyer.  A big ship!  There was no adequate watch or this would never have happened.  Crew members died.  But JFK's father used his influence to turn this into a heroic act for political purposes.  Those are just facts.  Anyone else would have been put in the brig in disgrace.  JFK's own brother Joe said it best:

 What I really want to know is where the hell were you when the destroyer hove into sight, and exactly what were your moves?”

Richard,

You're full of beans.

See my rebuttal to your lame post, above.

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Richard Smith on October 30, 2019, 03:11:07 PM
It was a cloudy, moonless night and there was fog.

The destroyer was travelling at a fairly high rate of speed, and its running lights were off.

The PTs in that area had been ordered to operate under radio silence at that time.

PT 109 was travelling slowly on one engine so as to not create a phosphorescent wake that would give it away.

PT 109 had only 10 seconds to get up to speed and get out of the destroyer's way.

"Dereliction of duty" my you-know-what.

--  MWT  ;)

Great use of Wikipedia.  How did the Japanese destroyer see the much smaller PT boat then or do you think it was just a coincidence in the vast the expanse of the Pacific Ocean that it rammed PT 109?  Also check on who wrote the official report.  Here is a hint - he later served on the US Supreme Court.  Guess who appointed him?  I bet you can without even looking it up.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on October 30, 2019, 03:26:42 PM
I already made my point. We will see if the Senate Republicans hold in due course won't we ;D

If I am wrong, won't be the first time.

   Like I said, you are wandering into a field beyond your depth. The Trump phone call stuff was intended to blunt what the Dem's though was the soon coming IG Report and the Durham/Barr investigation. Well, the release of the IG Report and Durham Investigation were delayed, (probably intentionally), leaving the Dem's over their skies with the Phone Call Ruse. Dem's now have a run away train = PR Disaster that will ultimately be derailed in the Senate. (remember, needs 2/3). On top of all that, the Dem's are also saddled with Schiff and his Secret Inner Sanctum proceedings. All of which transform Trump into a victim.  Only the Dem's would be capable of somehow turning Trump into a sympathetic victim. 
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 30, 2019, 03:53:47 PM
Those are just facts.

Yeah, we’ve all seen the things you call “facts”, “Richard”.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on October 30, 2019, 05:40:28 PM
   Like I said, you are wandering into a field beyond your depth. The Trump phone call stuff was intended to blunt what the Dem's though was the soon coming IG Report and the Durham/Barr investigation. Well, the release of the IG Report and Durham Investigation were delayed, (probably intentionally), leaving the Dem's over their skies with the Phone Call Ruse. Dem's now have a run away train = PR Disaster that will ultimately be derailed in the Senate. (remember, needs 2/3). On top of all that, the Dem's are also saddled with Schiff and his Secret Inner Sanctum proceedings. All of which transform Trump into a victim.  Only the Dem's would be capable of somehow turning Trump into a sympathetic victim.

Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/10/23/why-republicans-are-holding-up-impeachment-inquiry/
Why Republicans are holding up the impeachment inquiry
And why their logic for doing so falls short

.....All Republicans on the three committees involved in this inquiry (Intelligence, Foreign Affairs and Oversight) are allowed into the hearings. Lawmakers from other committees are not allowed in, be they Republican or Democrat.

Who’s involved in the Trump impeachment inquiry

These hearings are taking place behind closed doors because lawmakers think things will be more productive that way. A Democratic aide working on the impeachment inquiry emailed around Gowdy’s comments on Wednesday to underscore that when the shoe was on the other foot, Republicans were fine with having things behind closed doors......

Skillfully done! What an interesting mix delivered as if by a nonpartisan bystander but slanted so far Trump-right as to topple.

Your paen to Trump is heavy on "Dear Leader plays three dimensional chess," mixed with a heapin' helpin' of (White House talking points objecting to process in lieu of ANY factual defense) John Solomon, Sara Carter, Chuck Ross "reporting,' AKA what Hannity feeds them. " the Durham/Barr investigation" was a politically motivated "review" only "elevated" to a criminal investigation after disasterous testimony was conducted in a House committee(s) preliminary investigation similar to the beginnings of the Nixon impeachment (grand jury) house proceedings and the investigation conducted by Special Consul Ken Starr.

The " the Durham/Barr investigation"  became a "Thing" only after Acting Ambassador Bill Taylor "blew up" Trump sock-puppet Gordon Sondland.:
Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/diplomat-who-raised-alarm-about-withholding-aid-to-ukraine-testifies-in-impeachment-probe/2019/10/22/086fb850-f436-11e9-8cf0-4cc99f74d127_story.html
William B. Taylor, acting U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, testifies ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com › powerpost › 2019/10/22
Oct 22, 2019 - The explosive, closed-door testimony from acting ambassador William B. Taylor Jr. undermined Trump’s insistence that he never pressured Ukrainian officials in a potentially improper “quid pro quo.” It also offered House investigators an expansive road map to what Taylor called a ...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/24/us/politics/john-durham-criminal-investigation.html
Justice Dept. Is Said to Open Criminal Inquiry Into Its Own Russia Investigation
The move is likely to open the attorney general to accusations that he is trying to deliver a political victory for President Trump.
Oct. 24, 2019
...Justice Department officials have shifted an administrative review of the Russia investigation closely overseen by Attorney General William P. Barr to a criminal inquiry, according to two people familiar with the matter. The move gives the prosecutor running it, John H. Durham, the power to subpoena for witness testimony and documents, to convene a grand jury and to file criminal charges...

Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/legal-issues/the-foreman-of-watergate-grand-jury-no-1-has-been-watching-the-confrontations-with-another-president/2019/04/14/81f2d0a0-519c-11e9-8d28-f5149e5a2fda_story.html
The foreman of Watergate grand jury No. 1 has been watching the confrontations with another president

...At 91, he still lives in the Capitol Hill townhouse he resided in 45 years ago, when he commuted to court to hear evidence in a special prosecutor’s investigation of Richard M. Nixon and the coverup of his campaign’s break-in at the Democratic National Committee headquarters....

Quote
https://history.house.gov/Institution/Impeachment/Impeachment-List/
The Constitution gives the House of Representatives “the sole Power of Impeachment” (Article I, Section 2) of federal officers and gives the Senate “the sole Power to try all Impeachments” (Article I, Section 3). In the constitutional procedure of impeachment and removal, the House serves in the role of a grand jury bringing charges against an officer suspected of “Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors” (Article II, Section 4).

The DOJ certainly believes in the secrecy of grand jury proceedings when it comes to protecting the nation's chief LEO from the consequences of his abuse of power.
Quote
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/29/impeachment-delay-justice-department-061126
Appeals court delays House’s access to Mueller grand jury secrets
....Chief Judge Beryl Howell’s ruling Friday, in which she concluded House lawmakers were entitled to the usually secret grand jury information....
Howell also had rejected a key White House argument: The impeachment investigation is unconstitutional because no House vote has been taken to initiate it.

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on October 30, 2019, 06:44:10 PM
Trump Conspiracy #283

CT Trump knew that the JFK assassination was a conspiracy and that GHWB was a conspirator. Trump knew that by releasing the last of the sealed documents on the JFK case that any remaining conspirators would be flushed out and try to prevent it from happening. But now that the last of the conspirators, GHWB is dead, why is Trump still holding up the last docs? Certainly not for love or threats from the Bush family.

It turns out the trump card here was William Barr, who was GHWB's attorney at the time who was responsible for deep sixing the JFK documents in the first place. When Barr realized Trump was about to spill the beans he sent a memo to the Justice Department expressing his view on the special counsel's investigation into obstruction of justice and essentially offered protection for Trump if he made him AG.

With Barr as AG we will NEVER see more JFK documents if they still exist. Barr's recent "criminal probe" in the Russiagate scandal gives him unlimited power and access to the JFK docs. That's all Barr cared about all along. It certainly wasn't so he could destroy his own legacy as Trump's henchman.

Now that Barr has likely destroyed all his own incriminating docs I predict he will high-tail it outta Dodge, unless he's caught up in the Ukraine thing.

It's all true. And if it isn't, then it should be!

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Robert Reeves on October 30, 2019, 07:43:54 PM
Trump Conspiracy #283

CT Trump knew that the JFK assassination was a conspiracy and that GHWB was a conspirator. Trump knew that by releasing the last of the sealed documents on the JFK case that any remaining conspirators would be flushed out and try to prevent it from happening. But now that the last of the conspirators, GHWB is dead, why is Trump still holding up the last docs? Certainly not for love or threats from the Bush family.

It turns out the trump card here was William Barr, who was GHWB's attorney at the time who was responsible for deep sixing the JFK documents in the first place. When Barr realized Trump was about to spill the beans he sent a memo to the Justice Department expressing his view on the special counsel's investigation into obstruction of justice and essentially offered protection for Trump if he made him AG.

With Barr as AG we will NEVER see more JFK documents if they still exist. Barr's recent "criminal probe" in the Russiagate scandal gives him unlimited power and access to the JFK docs. That's all Barr cared about all along. It certainly wasn't so he could destroy his own legacy as Trump's henchman.

Now that Barr has likely destroyed all his own incriminating docs I predict he will high-tail it outta Dodge, unless he's caught up in the Ukraine thing.

It's all true. And if it isn't, then it should be!

Barr's questionable actions - re the suppression of the JFK assassination files? what do you, or anyone else know? just curious.

Having recently lived through the Jeffery Epstein death and watching closely for Barr to offer an outraged response to the situation, he didn't, I find him to be a bag carrier. But for who? Obviously CIA? some might say, he was a former analyst for them ... Chinese section ... Bush Snr? Barr's old man was OSS. Barr's dad knew Jeffery Epstein too! He appears to be the man for the moment.

Quote
Indeed. This, then, is the same Bill Barr who once argued that President Johnson, not Congress, had the overriding authority to determine the military course of America’s involvement in the Vietnam War. Twenty years later, during the Iran-Contra crisis that rocked Ronald Reagan’s second term, Barr, then a White House policy adviser, voiced the view that administration members should be granted pardons for their roles in the ill-fated arms-for-hostages deal. As assistant attorney general and then A.G. under George H.W. Bush, Barr pushed back against a proposed independent probe of Bush insiders, earning the epithet “Coverup-General” Barr.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/10/the-untold-tale-of-young-william-barr (https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/10/the-untold-tale-of-young-william-barr)

I've read a few days ago about Barr being apart of the Opus Dei Catholicism ...

https://www.thenation.com/article/william-barr-notre-dame-secularism/ (https://www.thenation.com/article/william-barr-notre-dame-secularism/)

Quote
Barr disclosed on a questionnaire submitted during his Senate confirmation process that he’s been an active leader of several far-right Catholic and Christian groups. As recently as 2017, he was on the board of directors of the DC-based Catholic Information Center, led by the ultraright and secretive group Opus Dei.

A battle of the new, VS. the old 'deep states'. It looks like.





Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on October 30, 2019, 10:05:13 PM
Barr's questionable actions - re the suppression of the JFK assassination files? what do you, or anyone else know? just curious.

Having recently lived through the Jeffery Epstein death and watching closely for Barr to offer an outraged response to the situation, he didn't, I find him to be a bag carrier. But for who? Obviously CIA? some might say, he was a former analyst for them ... Chinese section ... Bush Snr? Barr's old man was OSS. Barr's dad knew Jeffery Epstein too! He appears to be the man for the moment.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/10/the-untold-tale-of-young-william-barr (https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/10/the-untold-tale-of-young-william-barr)

I've read a few days ago about Barr being apart of the Opus Dei Catholicism ...

https://www.thenation.com/article/william-barr-notre-dame-secularism/ (https://www.thenation.com/article/william-barr-notre-dame-secularism/)

A battle of the new, VS. the old 'deep states'. It looks like.

When George H.W. Bush became CIA Director in 1976, Barr joined the CIA’s “legal office” and Bush’s inner circle, working alongside Bush’s longtime CIA enforcers Theodore “Ted” Shackley, Felix Rodriguez, Thomas Clines, and others, several of whom were likely involved with the Bay of Pigs/JFK assassination, and numerous southeast Asian operations, from the Phoenix Program to Golden Triangle narco-trafficking. Barr knows where all the bodies are buried and his goal was to gain access to the remaining JFK files that were held back and destroy the hell out of them. Looks like he got his wish.

When asked about his legacy in lieu of his inexplicable actions defending Trump, Barr said, "we're all going to die [someday, so who gives a f**k?]".  He would much rather permanently cover his ass over the JFK thing than preserve his ridiculous legacy with Trump.

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on October 30, 2019, 10:35:44 PM
When George H.W. Bush became CIA Director in 1976, Barr joined the CIA’s “legal office” and Bush’s inner circle, working alongside Bush’s longtime CIA enforcers Theodore “Ted” Shackley, Felix Rodriguez, Thomas Clines, and others, several of whom were likely involved with the Bay of Pigs/JFK assassination, and numerous southeast Asian operations, from the Phoenix Program to Golden Triangle narco-trafficking. Barr knows where all the bodies are buried and his goal was to gain access to the remaining JFK files that were held back and destroy the hell out of them. Looks like he got his wish.

When asked about his legacy in lieu of his inexplicable actions defending Trump, Barr said, "we're all going to die [someday, so who gives a f**k?]".  He would much rather permanently cover his ass over the JFK thing than preserve his ridiculous legacy with Trump.

    Please provide some details of the Barr quote you posted above.  Where, When, Who was present when Barr leveled this F Bomb? 
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on October 30, 2019, 10:42:18 PM
Is there an argument in there? Your comment is so creative.
Nothing intelligent to say so you stick to a real talking point.
Wow! Identity politics. You are a bright one

If you were bright enough, you would be able to prove your bogus claims. Since you gave an inadequate answer you proved my point.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on October 30, 2019, 10:44:05 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/fkHtZjL/ABF67-B89-B6-F9-4-F1-B-8740-9-DEAEE7-F93-D5.jpg)

All the President's men.......perfect.

And Benedict Donald said he had no clue who they are.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on October 31, 2019, 03:33:15 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/fkHtZjL/ABF67-B89-B6-F9-4-F1-B-8740-9-DEAEE7-F93-D5.jpg)

All the President's men.......perfect.
Interesting, let's keep this silly logic going.  Hmmmm!
1. Identity politics. Hey!
2. All the President's men. Hmmm! I got one I even got two
3. Carl
4. Bob  Hmmmm! I know
5. WaPo
6. CIA Hmmm! I got the best one
7. JFK assassination

They are all linked which means Trump killed JFK
And some will say "I think you might have something" and the 2 overrated reporters will say "I never thought of that"
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on October 31, 2019, 04:23:37 AM
Interesting, let's keep this silly logic going.  Hmmmm!
1. Identity politics. Hey!
2. All the President's men. Hmmm! I got one I even got two
3. Carl
4. Bob  Hmmmm! I know
5. WaPo
6. CIA Hmmm! I got the best one
7. JFK assassination

They are all linked which means Trump killed JFK
And some will say "I think you might have something" and the 2 overrated reporters will say "I never thought of that"


You don't care a so called "president" has violated the Constitution and has sold out our country to the Russians? Disgraceful. 
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on October 31, 2019, 12:15:47 PM

You don't care a so called "president" has violated the Constitution and has sold out our country to the Russians? Disgraceful.

Rick,

I agree with you.

Imho, only a truly ignorant person could support Donald Trump, the con man extraordinaire who started laundering money for the Russian Mafia (can you say "KGB"?) in 1984.

https://newrepublic-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/newrepublic.com/amp/article/143586/trumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15725244511437&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fnewrepublic.com%2Farticle%2F143586%2Ftrumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate

--  MWT  ;)

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Otto Beck on October 31, 2019, 04:21:13 PM
Rick,

I agree with you.

Imho, only a truly ignorant person could support Donald Trump, the con man extraordinaire who started laundering money for the Russian Mafia (can you say "KGB"?) in 1984.

https://newrepublic-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/newrepublic.com/amp/article/143586/trumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15725244511437&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fnewrepublic.com%2Farticle%2F143586%2Ftrumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate

--  MWT  ;)

From a strategic point of view it made perfect sense to vote Trump in order to have the Clinton bitch eliminated once and for all.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on October 31, 2019, 04:39:30 PM

You don't care a so called "president" has violated the Constitution and has sold out our country to the Russians? Disgraceful.

     Are you familiar with the DNC/Clinton paying a foreign agent/Steele for Russian sourced misinformation?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on October 31, 2019, 05:37:27 PM
     Are you familiar with the DNC/Clinton paying a foreign agent/Steele for Russian sourced misinformation?

Highly-respected-by-FBI, former MI-6 officer Christopher Steele wasn't paid to gather misinformation, he was paid to dig up information in a problematic police-state country: Russia.

Steele himself estimated his report to be "only" 70% to 90% accurate, which is very good for that kind of raw intelligence.

Putin probably had his agents put the pee-pee stuff in there to infuriate Trump and to make the whole report look dubious.

Regarding Cohen's possibly being in Prague, the jury's still out on that one. Something about his cellphone's signal bouncing from tower to tower there ...

Bottom line: Lots of the Steele Dossier has been proved to be true.

Get over it.

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Zeon Mason on October 31, 2019, 06:22:39 PM
Former British spy Christopher Steele admitted that he relied on an unverified report on a CNN website for part of the "Trump dossier," which was used as a basis for the FBI's investigation into Trump.

According to deposition transcripts released this week, Steele said last year he used a 2009 report he found on CNN's iReport website and said he wasn't aware that submissions to that site are posted by members of the public and are not checked for accuracy.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/steele-admitted-in-court-he-used-unverified-website-to-support-the-trump-dossier
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on October 31, 2019, 07:02:12 PM
Former British spy Christopher Steele admitted that he relied on an unverified report on a CNN website for part of the "Trump dossier," which was used as a basis for the FBI's investigation into Trump.

According to deposition transcripts released this week, Steele said last year he used a 2009 report he found on CNN's iReport website and said he wasn't aware that submissions to that site are posted by members of the public and are not checked for accuracy.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/steele-admitted-in-court-he-used-unverified-website-to-support-the-trump-dossier

Yes, that was a mistake by Steele.

Does it mean those contributors were wrong?

https://www-nytimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/03/14/us/politics/gubarev-steele-dossier-trump-russia.amp.html?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15725481022520&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2019%2F03%2F14%2Fus%2Fpolitics%2Fgubarev-steele-dossier-trump-russia.html

--  MWT  ;)

Btw, Washington Examiner, like Fox News, has "Right Bias" and "Mixed" Factual Reporting according to mediabiasfactcheck. com

https://mediabiasfactcheck-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-examiner/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&amp&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15725487062991&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fmediabiasfactcheck.com%2Fwashington-examiner%2F

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on October 31, 2019, 08:18:33 PM
Highly-respected-by-FBI, former MI-6 officer Christopher Steele wasn't paid to gather misinformation, he was paid to dig up information in a problematic police-state country: Russia.

Steele himself estimated his report to be "only" 70% to 90% accurate, which is very good for that kind of raw intelligence.

Putin probably had his agents put the pee-pee stuff in there to infuriate Trump and to make the whole report look dubious.

Regarding Cohen's possibly being in Prague, the jury's still out on that one. Something about his cellphone's signal bouncing from tower to tower there ...

Bottom line: Lots of the Steele Dossier has been proved to be true.

Get over it.

--  MWT   ;)

      Please document where Steele EVER said/testified that 70% - 90% of His dossier was "Accurate". Yeah, some of the dossier was deemed to be accurate. Stuff like Trump being a male, Trump being in Russia at some point in time, etc.  Like Steele, You are misinformed.   
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on October 31, 2019, 08:44:41 PM
      Please document where Steele EVER said/testified that 70% - 90% of His dossier was "Accurate". Yeah, some of the dossier was deemed to be accurate. Stuff like Trump being a male, Trump being in Russia at some point in time, etc.  Like Steele, You are misinformed.

Should I have said "correct" or "true," instead?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/15/christopher-steele-trump-russia-dossier-accurate

-- MWT   ;)

PS  Just curious.  Do you read Washington Examiner and watch Fox News often?

PPS  Trump was in Russia in 2013 (and he started laundering money for the Russian Mafia in 1984).

https://newrepublic.com/article/143586/trumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on October 31, 2019, 09:42:26 PM
Regarding Webzallia, the GRU's hack of DNC's and Podesta's emails, and the Steele Dossier's incorporating unverified-at-that-time open-source opinions on same, it turns out those opinions were probably spot on.

Excerpt from a May 2018 federal court document:

XBT and its affiliated web hosting companies (e.g., Webzallia) have provided gateways to the internet for cybercriminals and Russian state sponsored actors to launch and control large scale malware campaigns over the past decade. (see "exhibit 25", below)  Data provided by Bitly indicates that an XBT affiliate owned infrastructure was used to support the malicious spear phishing attack of Democratic Party leadership in 2016 which resulted in the theft and subsequent publication of highly sensitive information related to the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign.Technical analysis of XBT infrastructure and U.S. government issued reports on Russian cyber espionage tactics indicates that IP addresses owned by XBT were utilized by Russian civilian and military intelligence services (RIS) to compromise and exploit networks and endpoints associated with the 2016 U.S. election. Additionally, evidence suggests that COZY BEAR and FANCY BEAR, the Russian government affiliated APT groups responsible for hacking the Democratic Party leadership, have used XBT infrastructure to support other malicious activity. Reputable private security firms have listed XBT infrastructure in a number of independent reports relating to high profile malware campaigns, including attacks by Russian state actors. Those reports suggest XBT infrastructure has been used to propagate malware, to attack the Ukrainian power grid, to engage in spear phishing attacks, to deliver ransomware, to launch online advertising click-fraud theft schemes, and to host botnets. Additionally, XBT has a public reputation for hosting malicious cyber activity. Media research evidences multiple affiliates as being involved in adverse, malicious or criminal activity. More specifically, XBT subsidiaries Webazilla, Webazilla BV and WZ Communications are cited in reputable publications as known hosts of malicious activity; operators of botnet and command-and-control servers; and hosts of high levels of Zeus botnet activity. FTI’s findings illustrate a pattern that XBT infrastructure has been a resource for cybercriminals to launch attacks without fear of repercussion, including specifically cybercriminals engaging in Russian state sponsored malicious activities. Based on documentation produced during discovery and deposition transcripts, Gubarev and other XBT executives do not appear to actively prevent cybercriminals from using their infrastructure. Minimal, if any, investigations were performed by XBT when their infrastructure was cited in high profile government or private security firm reports. For example, the first email correspondence from XBT executives about the Root. S.A owned IP addresses noted in the Grizzly Steppe report was sent in September 2017, almost nine months after the report was published.

"Exhibit 25":  https://app.box.com/s/cbclbgiu54ihivxe7bvblwsv1e8jq44h

-- By former FBI agent Anthony J. Ferrante, Senior Managing Director, Global Head of Cybersecurity FTI Consulting, Inc.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/668-report-commissioned-by-buzzfee/b3e5dbe1c9086ae11ccc/optimized/full.pdf#page=1


--  MWT   ;)

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on October 31, 2019, 10:20:41 PM
Should I have said "correct" or "true," instead?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/15/christopher-steele-trump-russia-dossier-accurate

-- MWT   ;)

PS  Just curious.  Do you read Washington Examiner and watch Fox News often?

PPS  Trump was in Russia in 2013 (and he started laundering money for the Russian Mafia in 1984).

https://newrepublic.com/article/143586/trumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate

     No where in either of those OLD articles you posted is Steele quoted as saying  his Trump dossier is 70-90% "accurate" NO WHERE.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on October 31, 2019, 10:50:44 PM

No where in either of those OLD articles you posted is Steele quoted as saying  his Trump dossier is 70-90% "accurate" NO WHERE.


Do you think The Guardian made it up?

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on October 31, 2019, 10:54:33 PM
https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/360508-book-steele-says-70-90-percent-of-his-trump-russia-dossier-is

The former British intelligence officer behind the controversial Trump dossier believes his reports are "70 percent to 90 percent" accurate, according to a new book about Russia's influence in the 2016 election written by Guardian reporter Luke Harding.

Christopher Steele also reportedly believes the contents of his report will be verified — and his work vindicated — as special counsel Robert Mueller continues to investigate possible ties between the Trump campaign and Moscow, according to a Guardian story written about the book and published on Wednesday.

“I’ve been dealing with this country for thirty years. Why would I invent this stuff?” Steele is quoted as saying in Harding's new book, "Collusion: Secret Meetings, Dirty Money, and How Russia Helped Donald Trump Win."

According to Harding, Steele felt shocked by his findings and the information his sources gave him about the extent of the collusion, warning friends that reading his report would be a "life-changing experience.” 

Harding's book also reportedly claims that Washington insiders took the explosive allegations in the dossier seriously because of Steele's trusted reputation of reporting on Kremlin matters, according to the Guardian. Steele reportedly wrote over a hundred reports on Russia and Ukraine between 2014 and 2016.

The book details Steele's career, including his time as an MI6 officer stationed in Moscow.

"Here was a pro, a well-connected Brit, who understood Russian espionage and its subterranean tricks. Steele was regarded as credible,” Harding writes, according to the Guardian story.

Some of his reports reached the desk of former Secretary of State John Kerry and other State Department officials, the book says.

Fusion GPS, an opposition research firm, contracted Steele to investigate ties between then-Republican presidential candidate Trump and the Kremlin during the 2016 election as scrutiny over their relationship mounted.

Steele and Fusion GPS became entangled in a national controversy when BuzzFeed News published the contents of the Russia dossier, which contained unverified allegations — some of which have been proven to be false.

The report comes after the House Intelligence Committee on Tuesday interviewed Glenn Simpson, the co-founder of Fusion GPS, during a closed-door meeting that lasted nearly seven hours.

An attorney for Simpson, Joshua Levy, also defended the contents of the dossier, saying “now in hindsight [it] looks quite accurate.”

Levy also denied that Simpson had any involvement writing the dossier.


--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on October 31, 2019, 11:21:10 PM
No where in either of those OLD articles you posted is Steele quoted as saying  his Trump dossier is 70-90% "accurate" NO WHERE.


Do you think The Guardian made it up?

--  MWT   ;)

       If Steele  had actually said that, they would have Ballyhooed the Quotation within the article. This is why You have to read/listen Carefully regarding what is being offered as Fact, vs that which is nothing more than  BS: 
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on October 31, 2019, 11:28:36 PM
If Steele  had actually said that, they would have Ballyhooed the Quotation within the article. This is why You have to read/listen Carefully regarding what is being offered as Fact, vs that which is nothing more than  BS.

Have you read my other post, above, which references Luke Harding's book, Collusion: Secret Meetings, Dirty Money, and How Russia Helped Donald Trump Win?

Read this, too, because it mentions the "70-to-90 percent accurate" claim:

https://www-newsweek-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.newsweek.com/trump-dossier-russia-true-712490?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&amp=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15725653102374&amp_ct=1572565364432&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Ftrump-dossier-russia-true-712490

I mentioned Michael Cohen's cellphone's being near Prague during the campaign in another post, this thread.

Here's an article about it in a news source rated as having "high factual reporting" by mediabiasfactcheck. com

https://amp-mcclatchydc-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.mcclatchydc.com/news/investigations/article219016820.html?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15725641139928&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcclatchydc.com%2Fnews%2Finvestigations%2Farticle219016820.html

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on October 31, 2019, 11:56:40 PM
Have you read my other post, above, which references Luke Harding's book, Collusion: Secret Meetings, Dirty Money, and How Russia Helped Donald Trump Win?

I mentioned Michael Cohen's cellphone's being near Prague during the campaign.

Here's an article about it in a news source rated as having "high factual reporting" by mediabiasfactcheck. com

https://amp-mcclatchydc-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.mcclatchydc.com/news/investigations/article219016820.html?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15725641139928&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcclatchydc.com%2Fnews%2Finvestigations%2Farticle219016820.html

--  MWT  ;)

     NONE of which has anything to do with Your Steele "70-90% accurate" statement. This = FAKE NEWS. Remembering that the O'Donnell Bombshell of Trump having loans cosigned by Russian Oligarch's turned out to be  flat-out  BS:, makes me believe this "pinging phone" is more of the same. Follow Facts, Not stuff that the Fake News Media throws out there in hopes it will get repeated.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 01, 2019, 12:12:10 AM
     NONE of which has anything to do with Your Steele "70-90% accurate" statement. This = FAKE NEWS. Remembering that the O'Donnell Bombshell of Trump having loans cosigned by Russian Oligarch's turned out to be  flat-out  BS:, makes me believe this "pinging phone" is more of the same. Follow Facts, Not stuff that the Fake News Media throws out there in hopes it will get repeated.

Royell,

I'm finished with you.

I've answered your question.

Read Luke Harding's book and find that quote, yourself.

I became aware of it right after the book was published because several credible news sources mentioned it.

Where were you?

If Steele didn't tell him that, don't you think Steele would have sued him by now for putting words in his mouth?

If you want to go through life believing the likes of Roger Stone, and that the Earth is flat and the moon is made of green cheese, that's your prerogative.

LOL

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 01, 2019, 12:43:15 AM
Royell,

I'm finished with you.

I've answered your question.

Read Luke Harding's book and find that quote, yourself.

I became aware of it right after the book was published because several credible news sources mentioned it.

Where were you?

If Steele didn't tell him that, don't you think Steele would have sued him by now for putting words in his mouth?

If you want to go through life believing the likes of Roger Stone, and that the Earth is flat and the moon is made of green cheese, that's your prerogative.

LOL

--  MWT  ;)

     Of course You are through with me. I ask You to back up Your claim, and it is revealed You have none.  YOU Repeated a claim which is Fake News  BS: I have No idea what you are talking about with regard to Roger Stone. You are howling at the moon.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 01, 2019, 01:06:51 AM
     NONE of which has anything to do with Your Steele "70-90% accurate" statement. This = FAKE NEWS. Remembering that the O'Donnell Bombshell of Trump having loans cosigned by Russian Oligarch's turned out to be  flat-out  BS:, makes me believe this "pinging phone" is more of the same. Follow Facts, Not stuff that the Fake News Media throws out there in hopes it will get repeated.

Do you actually believe that Trump has been maligned by the Steele dossier and the Deep State is out to get him? Maybe, but he sure as hell had it coming. Your dear leader is as corrupt as they come. He's Russian mob boss corrupt and his head is so far up Putin's ass he can see Sarah Palin's house.

If you still support Trump and drank the orange koolaid, then congrats, you are a cultist. And for the record the pee-pee tape is real.

Fact: In 2013 Trump hosted the Miss Universe Pageant in Moscow and Putin set him up in the Ritz-Carlton hotel in the same room that the Obamas stayed in 2009.
Fact: Putin is notorious for video taping his political rivals having sex with KGB hookers. He has done it many times and it is standard KGB protocol. Putin claims KGB hookers are the best in the world.
Fact: Putin sent several hookers to Trump's room that night.
Fact: Trump's body guard Keith Schiller intercepted the women and informed Trump of their presence and he apparently laughed it off, but didn't turn them down either.
Fact: For some reason Schiller then abandoned his post in front of Trump's hotel room and cannot account for any activities over the next few hours.
Fact: Trump is a notorious horn-dog who would never miss an opportunity to get in on a sex act. He barged into the change rooms of the pageant contestants for cripes sakes. He is also retarded enough to let his little head override the big head, which is his MO.

Trump's not an ass kisser by nature, but he kisses Putin's ass at every turn. Only kompromat will do that and it's not just the pee tape. Trump is up to his eyeballs in debt with the Rooskies. He likely has a deal with Putin to waive his debt if he lifts the Obama sanctions that kept the Exxon/Russian oil deal from going thru.

This whole thing is about big oil and making Putin the 1st trillionaire.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 01, 2019, 01:36:31 AM
     Of course You are through with me. I ask You to back up Your claim, and it is revealed You have none.  YOU Repeated a claim which is Fake News  BS: I have No idea what you are talking about with regard to Roger Stone. You are howling at the moon.

What do I not know about Roger "Rat Xxxxxx" Stone?

That he and his protege, Robert Morrow, swear up and down that LBJ killed Kennedy?

That he and Paul Manafort used to work together?

That during the campaign, he was in contact with Putin's agent, Julian Assange, and the GRU's "Guccifer 2.0"?

What?

--  MWT   ;)

PS  Where did you pick up that catchy phrase "Fake News"?


Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 01, 2019, 01:45:45 AM
Do you actually believe that Trump has been maligned by the Steele dossier and the Deep State is out to get him? Maybe, but he sure as hell had it coming. Your dear leader is as corrupt as they come. He's Russian mob boss corrupt and his head is so far up Putin's ass he can see Sarah Palin's house.

If you still support Trump and drank the orange koolaid, then congrats, you are a cultist. And for the record the pee-pee tape is real.

Fact: In 2013 Trump hosted the Miss Universe Pageant in Moscow and Putin set him up in the Ritz-Carlton hotel in the same room that the Obamas stayed in 2009.
Fact: Putin is notorious for video taping his political rivals having sex with KGB hookers. He has done it many times and it is standard KGB protocol. Putin claims KGB hookers are the best in the world.
Fact: Putin sent several hookers to Trumps room that night.
Fact: Trump's body guard Keith Schiller intercepted the women and informed Trump who apparently laughed it off, but didn't say no thanks.
Fact: For some reason Schiller then abandoned his post in front of Trump's hotel room and cannot account for any activities over the next few hours.
Fact: Trump is a notorious horn-dog who would never miss an opportunity to get in on a sex act. He barged into the change rooms of the pageant contestants for cripes sakes. He is also retarded enough to let his little head override the big head, which is his MO.

Trump's not an ass kisser by nature, but he kisses Putin's ass at every turn. Only kompromat will do that and it's not just the pee tape. Trump is up to his eyeballs in debt with the Rooskies. He likely has a deal with Putin to wave his debt if he lifts the Obama sanctions that kept the Exxon/Russian oil deal from going thru.

This whole thing is about big oil and making Putin the 1st trillionaire.

          More howling at the moon. This one with porn.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Denis Morissette on November 01, 2019, 03:24:40 AM
Some here are suffering from the Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 01, 2019, 03:25:21 AM
          More howling at the moon. This one with porn.

What is your objection to the Steele Dossier? IOW, how does the accuracy of it amount to more than another shiny object of distraction? Isn't the core controversy Trump, through concealment, dishonest assertions, obstruction of justice, speaks and behaves in ways giving a reasonable person the impression he is a partner, extorted victim, or both, of Vladimir Putin?

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/12/18/the-dossier-is-not-the-measure-of-the-trump-russia-conspiracy/
THE DOSSIER IS NOT THE MEASURE OF THE TRUMP-RUSSIA CONSPIRACY
December 18, 2018/ in 2016 Presidential Election, ...Mueller Probe /by emptywheel

....As I noted, Mueller laid out the following in the unredacted summary of Cohen’s cooperation.

Consider this passage in the Mueller Cohen sentencing memo.
Quote
https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.505539/gov.uscourts.nysd.505539.15.0.pdf

The defendant’s false statements obscured the fact that the Moscow Project was a lucrative business opportunity that sought, and likely required, the assistance of the Russian government. If the project was completed, the Company could have received hundreds of millions of dollars from Russian sources in licensing fees and other revenues. The fact that Cohen continued to work on the project and discuss it with Individual 1 well into the campaign was material to the ongoing congressional and SCO investigations, particularly because it occurred at a time of sustained efforts by the Russian government to interfere with the U.S. presidential election. Similarly, it was material that Cohen, during the campaign, had a substantive telephone call about the project with an assistant to the press secretary for the President of Russia.
....

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/04/10/why-are-republicans-still-squealing-about-fisa-applications-if-hpsci-report-cedes-carter-page-concerns/
WHY ARE REPUBLICANS STILL SQUEALING ABOUT FISA APPLICATIONS IF HPSCI REPORT CEDES CARTER PAGE CONCERNS?
April 10, 2018
...Importantly, however, it’s no longer just former prosecutors in the Democratic party who seem to confirm that Page was a real counterintelligence concern, and therefore legitimately a FISA target. At least, that’s what these two passages from the GOP House Intelligence Report suggest.
https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/russia_report_findings_and_recommendations.pdf
(https://www.emptywheel.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Screen-Shot-2018-04-09-at-3.29.03-PM.png)

(https://www.emptywheel.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Screen-Shot-2018-04-09-at-2.57.50-PM.png)

....If you’re complaining that the Intelligence Community didn’t inform Trump about that members of his campaign team were “assessed to be potential counterintelligence concerns,” (and this likely includes Paul Manafort, as well as Page), then you can’t very well complain if FBI obtained a FISA warrant once those counterintelligence concerns left the campaign team. Hell, you’re practically inviting the FBI to obtain such a warrant while the counterintelligence concern is on the campaign, to help warn the candidate.

I know this is a bit to ask, but the GOP should not be able to have it both ways, to try to discredit the Trump investigation by pointing to the use of the Steele dossier in targeting Page, even while demanding FBI should have shared what it knew about Page because he posed a risk to Trump.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 01, 2019, 03:30:48 AM
What is your objection to the Steele Dossier? IOW, how does the accuracy of it amount to more than another shiny object of distraction? Isn't the core controversy Trump, through concealment, dishonest assertions, obstruction of justice, speaks and behaves in ways giving a reasonable person the impression he is a partner, extorted victim, or both, of Vladimir Putin?
....

    "Impression" is subject to interpretation. Trump only gets Accused of working in concert with the Ruskies, yet the DNC flat-out pays for Russian info and Nobody says Boo. The Steele Dossier is pure fabrication. Steele literally sold the DNC a bunch of  BS: and the Fake News Media = the propaganda arm of the DNC then ran with it. Now they are running with the Ukraine baloney. It will come to an immediate Halt when the IG Report + Durham/Barr Investigation come out. Schiff and Pelosi will be Exposed naked as Jay Birds
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 01, 2019, 04:19:32 AM
    "Impression" is subject to interpretation. Trump only gets Accused of working in concert with the Ruskies, yet the DNC flat-out pays for Russian info and Nobody says Boo. The Steele Dossier is pure fabrication. Steele literally sold the DNC a bunch of  BS: and the Fake News Media = the propaganda arm of the DNC then ran with it. Now they are running with the Ukraine baloney. It will come to an immediate Halt when the IG Report + Durham/Barr Investigation come out. Schiff and Pelosi will be Exposed naked as Jay Birds

Royell, assure us you did not vote for a candidate who got Billy Bush fired from "The Today Show" merely for being caught on tape laughing, TEN YEARS PRIOR at the felonious boasts of a celebrity sexual predator, but now you whine so compellingly about the Steele Dossier doing precisely what, damaging the reputation of this admitted sexual predator and compulsive liar?

The facts are not a friend of your belief system. The Durham "criminal" investigation commenced in the last few weeks. Prior to that, it was a "review". The Mueller investigation lasted 20 months and was considered rapid. Good luck with any prospect of that "completed anyday now," IG report making your dreams come true.

Quote
https://www.factcheck.org/2019/03/dossier-not-what-started-all-of-this/
Dossier Not What ‘Started All of This’
By Lori Robertson  Posted on March 27, 2019
....
Quote
Ratcliffe, March 25: That this was a fake, phony dossier that started all of this, funded by the Democrats. … It wasn’t real and now Bob Mueller says it wasn’t real.
...But Ratcliffe is wrong to say the dossier “started all of this.” Competing memos from the Republicans and the Democrats on the House intelligence committee both say that information about George Papadopoulos, a Trump campaign foreign policy adviser, had prompted the FBI investigation in July 2016.

Papadopoulos had contacts with Russian intermediaries during the campaign, according to the Justice Department, and later pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about those contacts. While he was a Trump campaign adviser, Papadopoulos met with a professor with connections to Russian government officials who told him “about the Russians possessing ‘dirt’ on then-candidate Hillary Clinton in the form of ‘thousands of emails,'” and he tried to arrange a meeting between the Russian government and the campaign, the DOJ’s statement of the offense said....
Quote
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/fbi-releases-documents-showing-payments-trump-dossier-author-steele-n897506
Updated Aug. 3, 2018, 4:04 PM EDT
By Tom Winter

..Steele, a former MI6 operative who opened a private firm, compiled the Trump dossier during the 2016 presidential campaign under contract to the U.S. research firm Fusion GPS.

Fusion had been hired to get information on Trump during the primaries by a Republican media firm, Washington Free Beacon. When Trump became the Republican nominee, the Clinton campaign and the Democratic Party began picking up the tab for the Fusion research. Fusion owner Glenn Simpson hired Steele, a Russia expert, to gather information from his sources in Russia....

Quote
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/why-would-paul-manafort-share-polling-data-with-russia
Why Would Paul Manafort Share Polling Data with Russia?
By Sue Halpern January 10, 2019

On Tuesday, when news broke that Donald Trump’s former campaign manager Paul Manafort had shared internal polling data with Konstantin Kilimnik, a Russian business associate with ties to Russian intelligence, the through line between the campaign and the Kremlin began to look incontrovertible. The revelation came in an inadvertently unredacted court document, which was filed by Manafort’s lawyers in response to charges made by the special counsel, Robert Mueller, that Manafort had lied to investigators. According to the Times, some—but not all—of the data was already in the public domain. The rest came from the campaign’s own polling operation.

Trump, who famously eschewed polling in the early days of his campaign and told the “Meet the Press” host Chuck Todd that pollsters were a waste of his money, eventually had five polling firms working to get him elected. All were hired after Manafort joined the campaign, in March, 2016, without pay. Five months later, he was forced to resign when it was revealed that he had failed to disclose his work as a foreign agent on behalf of pro-Russia political forces in Ukraine. Since then, of course, Manafort has been convicted of multiple counts of financial fraud.

In June, Trump downplayed Manafort’s tenure on his campaign, telling reporters, “You know, Paul Manafort worked for me for a very short period of time.” But F.B.I. wiretaps show that Manafort continued his association with Trump long after he resigned. Manafort was also in touch with his business partner, Rick Gates—now considered to be Robert Mueller’s star witness—who had been Trump’s deputy campaign manager and remained a White House insider. But, even more significant, it was Paul Manafort who decided to hire Tony Fabrizio as the campaign’s chief pollster. Their friendship dates back to the nineteen-nineties—Fabrizio and Manafort worked together on the Presidential campaign of Bob Dole. Fabrizio also worked for Manafort in Ukraine, earning $278,500 for the same type of work he would later do for Trump—polling and surveying to help elevate Viktor Yanukovych’s Party of Regions in the 2012 parliamentary elections. During the same period, Manafort disbursed five hundred and thirty-one thousand dollars to Kilimnik, his translator and fixer in Ukraine, for “professional services.” According to a report in Bloomberg about Manafort’s Ukrainian ventures, Fabrizio is included in e-mail chains with Manafort and Kilimnik.

Fabrizio, a native New Yorker who now lives in Florida, has worked for dozens of Republican candidates, including Mitch McConnell, Joni Ernst, and Rand Paul, and is a senior counsellor at Mercury Public Affairs, which Mueller referred to federal prosecutors in the Southern District of New York, for failing to register as a foreign agent for its lobbying work on behalf of Ukraine. Fabrizio’s company, Fabrizio, Lee & Associates, bills itself as “one of the leading survey research and campaign strategists in the nation.” “We were honored to have the privilege to serve as Chief Pollsters for President Donald J. Trump’s historic upset victory,” the company’s Web site declares, at the top of its home page. But the firm also had the experience of many people who have worked for Trump: for a time, it was reported that Trump stiffed the company three-quarters of a million dollars for its services on the Presidential campaign. If nothing else, Fabrizio was familiar with both principals in this story. (Fabrizio did not respond to multiple requests for comment.)...
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 01, 2019, 04:41:04 AM
    "Impression" is subject to interpretation. Trump only gets Accused of working in concert with the Ruskies, yet the DNC flat-out pays for Russian info and Nobody says Boo. The Steele Dossier is pure fabrication. Steele literally sold the DNC a bunch of  BS: and the Fake News Media = the propaganda arm of the DNC then ran with it. Now they are running with the Ukraine baloney. It will come to an immediate Halt when the IG Report + Durham/Barr Investigation come out. Schiff and Pelosi will be Exposed naked as Jay Birds

Do you actually believe that everything negative written about Trump is "Fake News"? Royell, you're a smart guy, don't be a Trump/Alex Jones CT. Not all conspiracies are created equal. Only the JFK assassination, 911, and maybe bigfoot are legit conspiracies ;) ...but don't fall for all the Trump tinfoil hat CT BS.  Trump may be a low-IQ, draft dodging grifter, but according to Rex Tillerson and others, he is also a "fucking moron", and not worthy of anyone's devotion.

SNAP OUT OF IT!
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 01, 2019, 04:54:07 AM
Royell, assure us you did not vote for a candidate who got Billy Bush fired from "The Today Show" merely for being caught on tape laughing, TEN YEARS PRIOR at the felonious boasts of a celebrity sexual predator, but now you whine so compellingly about the Steele Dossier doing precisely what, damaging the reputation of this admitted sexual predator and compulsive liar?

The facts are not a friend of your belief system. The Durham "criminal" investigation commenced in the last few weeks. Prior to that, it was a "review". The Mueller investigation lasted 20 months and was considered rapid. Good luck with any prospect of that "completed anyday now," IG report making your dreams come true.
...But Ratcliffe is wrong to say the dossier “started all of this.” Competing memos from the Republicans and the Democrats on the House intelligence committee both say that information about George Papadopoulos, a Trump campaign foreign policy adviser, had prompted the FBI investigation in July 2016.

Papadopoulos had contacts with Russian intermediaries during the campaign, according to the Justice Department, and later pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about those contacts. While he was a Trump campaign adviser, Papadopoulos met with a professor with connections to Russian government officials who told him “about the Russians possessing ‘dirt’ on then-candidate Hillary Clinton in the form of ‘thousands of emails,'” and he tried to arrange a meeting between the Russian government and the campaign, the DOJ’s statement of the offense said....

     Again, you need to exit the deep end of the pool. When it comes to politics, you are absolutely clueless. The IG and Durham/Barr Investigation are intentionally being drug out. In politics, Timing is everything. The Dem's are shooting the wad now. It's a run-away-train that will soon derail just like Mueller did on national TV. You have no idea what is unfolding right in front of your eyes. Funny to see You in this position. Stick to the research.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 01, 2019, 05:05:51 AM
     Again, you need to exit the deep end of the pool. When it comes to politics, you are absolutely clueless. The IG and Durham/Barr Investigation are intentionally being drug out. In politics, Timing is everything. The Dem's are shooting the wad now. It's a run-away-train that will soon derail just like Mueller did on national TV. You have no idea what is unfolding right in front of your eyes. Funny to see You in this position. Stick to the research.

What we are watching is KGB-boy Vladimir Putin's Number-One Useful Idiot as he destroys our country for his and his buddies' financial benefit, supported blindly and rabidly by his uber-ignorant, lemming-like, brainwashed for umpteen years by weaponized Ruskie disinformation (including ... gasp ... the JFK assassination), CT-huggin', "Deep State"-fearin', MMA-lovin', bumped-stocked-and-strapped supporters.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Robert Reeves on November 01, 2019, 12:05:19 PM
Quote
Host: The presidents concern and often used term about a 'deep state' being there to take him out

Quote
Former CIA Director John McLaughlin: Thank God for the Deep State


Whatever you think about Trump - him being the president - it has revealed the power structure in USA and how it operates.

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Steve Logan on November 01, 2019, 01:19:13 PM

Whatever you think about Trump - him being the president - it has revealed the power structure in USA and how it operates.
So obviously "The Power Structure" didn't want Clinton as President. Wonder how they feel about the uber Socialists leading the Communist Democrats ticket this go round? If you really want a good belly laugh check out Warren (52 Trillion dollar) and Sanders (32 Trillion dollar) medicare-for-all plans . As Alvin Lee sang "Tax the rich, feed the poor, till there are no rich no more."
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 01, 2019, 02:55:12 PM
What we are watching is KGB-boy Vladimir Putin's Number-One Useful Idiot as he destroys our country for his and his buddies' financial benefit, supported blindly and rabidly by his uber-ignorant, lemming-like, brainwashed for umpteen years by weaponized Ruskie disinformation (including ... gasp ... the JFK assassination), CT-huggin', "Deep State"-fearin', MMA-lovin', bumped-stocked-and-strapped supporters.

--  MWT  ;)

   Did Not know You had shape shifting abilities. You have gone from Barking at the Moon, to Braying at the Moon. A downhill transition. Get a grip on yourself before it becomes Totally hopeless.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 01, 2019, 03:00:37 PM

Whatever you think about Trump - him being the president - it has revealed the power structure in USA and how it operates.

   Brennan and Clapper are Now shaking like leaves. Buck naked. Why else would Brennan dispatch/reveal his mole/whistle blower? Last ditch effort stuff.  The climb up the Deep State food chain continues
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 01, 2019, 04:59:35 PM
   Brennan and Clapper are Now shaking like leaves. Buck naked. Why else would Brennan dispatch/reveal his mole/whistle blower? Last ditch effort stuff.  The climb up the Deep State food chain continues

What a load of regurgitated Russian propaganda vomit.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 01, 2019, 05:14:02 PM
So obviously "The Power Structure" didn't want Clinton as President. Wonder how they feel about the uber Socialists leading the Communist Democrats ticket this go round? If you really want a good belly laugh check out Warren (52 Trillion dollar) and Sanders (32 Trillion dollar) medicare-for-all plans . As Alvin Lee sang "Tax the rich, feed the poor, till there are no rich no more."

How ironic for you to say that, given the fact that KGB-Mafia boy Vladimir Putin (raised in the Soviet Communist tradition) installed his number one "useful idiot" as our president because, for one reason, he was so afraid of "Communist Democrat" Hillary Clinton.

--  MWT   ;)

PS  John McLaughlin is spot on in that video.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 01, 2019, 05:25:25 PM
So obviously "The Power Structure" didn't want Clinton as President. Wonder how they feel about the uber Socialists leading the Communist Democrats ticket this go round? If you really want a good belly laugh check out Warren (52 Trillion dollar) and Sanders (32 Trillion dollar) medicare-for-all plans . As Alvin Lee sang "Tax the rich, feed the poor, till there are no rich no more."

A democratic party POTUS is not a dictator. Compromise will ensue, resulting in change. The Dems have a credible record on health insurance reform, the Repubs do not even consider that there is a problem, even as success for their "policies" would result in renewal of disqualification to be insured, due to pre-existing medical condition.

Steve, should candidates be more responsive to the concerns of the wealthiest 66 million or the other 264 million? Hillary "served" on the board of Walmart. She "hugged" the Mubaraks, just months before the Egyptian dictator was overthrown and arrested. She voted for broad war authority for Bush, authority our country is saddled with to this day. Extreme is in the eye of the beholder. What did this gain for all of Hillary's efforts to "meet in the middle"? Hint: not the presidency, or even respect.

Steve, one "side" is psycho, but not the "side" you've been critical of.
Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/10/09/the-deep-disgust-for-hillary-clinton-that-drives-so-many-evangelicals-to-support-trump/
Acts of Faith Analysis
The deep disgust for Hillary Clinton that drives so many evangelicals to support Trump

According to the latest Post-ABC poll, 70 percent of white evangelicals hold an unfavorable view of Clinton, compared with 55 percent of the public overall who say the same thing. Among respondents, 72 percent of evangelicals say she’s not honest and trustworthy.

This has been puzzling to some observers, especially after Trump’s crass comments about women were revealed Friday. Trump is, after all, a thrice-married, casino-building businessman who has been widely criticized for bigoted remarks, name-calling and other behavior deemed un-Christ-like.

Clinton, on the other hand, is a churchgoing United Methodist who has long ties to leaders in the evangelical community. She taught Sunday school and, as a senator, attended weekly prayer breakfasts.

But white evangelicals’ anger toward Clinton, while at a fever pitch now, has been building for decades.
....


It is complicated, but the chart below is not.
Eliminating the VA "care" system and combining aged VA and medicare recipients with a younger risk pool of working age insureds with, for example, no Iraq or Afghanistan war instigated medical issues, instead of segregating the able bodied, under age 65 employed into low risk/low premium risk pools, is opposite the way competing ODC conduct medical care distribution policy.

The problem.:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/FederalReserve2016SCFWealthDecileChart.jpg)

The "system" is broken, not the candidates trying to be responsive to the broken system. The Republican response was corporate tax cuts heralded as "repatrioting" all that idle cash, profits of US corps idly sitting in overseas accounts. Infrastructure spending, "reinvestment in the homeland," was an assumed outcome, but it has not happened. Stock buybacks, $35 billion by Apple only, , just a single, large US domiciled, multi-national corp., consumed 5 percent of the $776 billion described in the WSJ article.:

Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-gop-tax-cut-failed-their-response-lets-do-it-again/2019/10/31/19422660-fc13-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html
Opinions
The GOP tax cut failed. Their response? Let’s do it again!
By Catherine Rampell ,Columnist
Oct. 31, 2019 at 7:18 p.m. EDT
Faced with a slowing economy and waves of factory closures and farming bankruptcies, President Trump and Republican lawmakers are finally going back to the drawing board.

So far, this brain trust has come up with . . . the exact same failed policy formula that got us these results in the first place.

U.S. economic growth slowed again in the third quarter, down to an annualized pace of just 1.9 percent.....
.....
More to the point, the rate is way lower than you’d expect given the massive fiscal stimulus policymakers have been pumping into the economy. We were told that the GOP’s corporate tax cuts alone would permanently turbocharge growth to at least 3 percent.

Instead, Trump spent $2 trillion in deficit-financed tax cuts for the rich to get us basically the same growth rate we had before he took office....
Quote
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-companies-transferred-more-profits-from-overseas-in-2018-than-estimated-11561044921
U.S. Companies Brought Home More Profits From Overseas
Firms repatriated $776.51 billion in foreign profits last year following tax-law overhaul, $111 billion more than previously reported
By Eric Morath and Theo Francis
Updated June 20, 2019 5:10 pm ET
WASHINGTON—U.S. companies brought home more foreign profits in the first year after the tax-law overhaul than the government previously estimated.

Firms repatriated $776.51 billion in profits made overseas in 2018, the Commerce Department said Thursday. The agency revised up an estimate made in March by more than $111 billion.....
Quote
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/apples-spends-79-billion-to-buyback-stock-in-q4-nearly-5-times-what-it-spent-in-q3-2019-10-31
Apple spent $18 billion on share buybacks last quarter, up from $17 billion the quarter before

By Tomi Kilgore
Published: Oct 31, 2019 10:06 a.m. ET

The recent democratic legislative response...

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act

...The ACA's major provisions came into force in 2014. By 2016, the uninsured share of the population had roughly halved, with estimates ranging from 20 to 24 million additional people covered during 2016.[5][6] The increased coverage was due, roughly equally, to an expansion of Medicaid eligibility and to major changes to individual insurance markets. Both involved new spending, funded through a combination of new taxes and cuts to Medicare provider rates and Medicare Advantage. Several Congressional Budget Office reports said that overall these provisions reduced the budget deficit, that repealing the ACA would increase the deficit,[7][8] and that the law reduced income inequality by taxing primarily the top 1% to fund roughly $600 in benefits on average to families in the bottom 40% of the income distribution.[9] The law also enacted a host of delivery system reforms intended to constrain healthcare costs and improve quality. After the law went into effect, increases in overall healthcare spending slowed, including premiums for employer-based insurance plans.[10]...
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 01, 2019, 06:54:05 PM
So obviously "The Power Structure" didn't want Clinton as President. Wonder how they feel about the uber Socialists leading the Communist Democrats ticket this go round? If you really want a good belly laugh check out Warren (52 Trillion dollar) and Sanders (32 Trillion dollar) medicare-for-all plans . As Alvin Lee sang "Tax the rich, feed the poor, till there are no rich no more."

You obviously have no idea what socialism is. If a single program becomes "socialized" then how does that make you a socialist country, one step away from communism? If that were the case then we became commies ever since we introduced socialized programs such as the police, firefighters, all jobs involving our infrastructure and especially the military. They are all social programs, unless you want the cops to bill you for answering your 911 call.

We need to decide what programs should be paid thru taxes instead of thru a blood sucking bill collector. These need to be service programs that joe taxpayer couldn't pay for without help. Every industrialized nation on earth, except for the US considers health care as important as the military for our safety and well being. Health care should be socialized so no US citizen is ever denied health care because they can't afford it.

Without insurance (and even with it) one major health care procedure can ruin your life even if you survive it. The insurance companies mandate is to make as much profit from you as possible and deny your claim, whenever possible. Is that who you want in charge of your health care? At least the gov is not profit driven and will keep all the costs down so you don't have to pay more in taxes than to the insurance companies in premiums and deductibles. It's working for every other country with single payer health care. Are you telling me that the US can't do it as well as them?

The "how are they going to pay for it?" crowd has to just accept that it will be expensive to transition to a better system because of the hole the current system put itself in. I don't believe it will cost over 20 trillion. I think that's just more establishment fear-mongering. Free health care didn't bankrupt: Australia, Austria, Bahrain, Belgium, Brunei, Canada, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hong Kong, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Kuwait, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Singapore, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom.

Surely the US can do it as well or better than them. So get over this whole "socialized medicine" bullshit because it's the best thing that could ever happen to you when you clutch at your chest thinking this is the big one!




Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 01, 2019, 08:44:41 PM
Rick,

I agree with you.

Imho, only a truly ignorant person could support Donald Trump, the con man extraordinaire who started laundering money for the Russian Mafia (can you say "KGB"?) in 1984.

https://newrepublic-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/newrepublic.com/amp/article/143586/trumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15725244511437&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fnewrepublic.com%2Farticle%2F143586%2Ftrumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate

--  MWT  ;)

Well said Thomas.

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 01, 2019, 08:45:24 PM

Whatever you think about Trump - him being the president - it has revealed the power structure in USA and how it operates.

Whatever you think about Trump - him being the president - it has revealed the power structure in USA and how it operates.


Amen, Robert....  I'm no big fan of President Trump....  But the one big plus to his credit is the fact that he's not connected with the Washington establishment.    He said he wanted to drain that swamp and expose the rats and snakes .....  They've been snapping at him and he's having a hard time concentrating on draining their cesspool...
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 01, 2019, 08:54:59 PM
     Are you familiar with the DNC/Clinton paying a foreign agent/Steele for Russian sourced misinformation?

Royell, is terribly misinformed since Republicans in the primary were trying to use the Steele Dossier first. It's super hypocritical of the right to make this absurd claim when Russia was helping Benedict Donald manufacture bogus smears against Clinton with wikileaks, and Gucifer which is Russian intelligence in a coordinated effort to destroy Clinton with the phony email scandal. Benedict Donald asked for foreign help to dig dirt up on his opponent national t.v. saying "Russier if you're listening". Right then he should have been disqualified from running. But this time with Ukraine he got caught.  Also, almost everything in that Dossier turned out to be accurate. Benedict Donald opened an investigation into Clinton and guess what? No wrong doing was ever found. The New York Times had a small article buried on page 16 after it ran with headlines for months insinuating Clinton was guilty. There's the so called "Liberal Media" for you. That was a fake manufactured scandal and the media went with it.       
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 01, 2019, 08:56:46 PM
      Please document where Steele EVER said/testified that 70% - 90% of His dossier was "Accurate". Yeah, some of the dossier was deemed to be accurate. Stuff like Trump being a male, Trump being in Russia at some point in time, etc.  Like Steele, You are misinformed.

Benedict Donald was in Russia where the pee tape exists. He thought he was going to build his tower there.   
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 01, 2019, 08:58:18 PM
Some here are suffering from the Trump Derangement Syndrome.

Right wingers use this lame line every time Benedict Donald's lies and crimes are exposed.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 01, 2019, 09:00:26 PM
Whatever you think about Trump - him being the president - it has revealed the power structure in USA and how it operates.


Amen, Robert....  I'm no big fan of President Trump....  But the one big plus to his credit is the fact that he's not connected with the Washington establishment.    He said he wanted to drain that swamp and expose the rats and snakes .....  They've been snapping at him and he's having a hard time concentrating on draining their cesspool...

Walt a staggering sum was invested to influence you and others very similar, to regurgitate such utter nonsense!
Trump was supposed to be "working for" the American people....millions of mid-westerners, conned by the con, just like Walt has been. The most corrupt administration in history, even compared to those Presidents in office eight years or longer, and Walt describes it as REFORM!

Quote
“Staggering” 281 Lobbyists Who've Worked in the Trump
https://www.propublica.org/article/we-found-a-staggering-281-lobbyists-whove-worked-in-the-trump-administration

Oct 15, 2019 - At the halfway mark of President Donald Trump's first term, his administration has hired a lobbyist for every 14 political appointments made, ...
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 01, 2019, 09:07:51 PM
     Again, you need to exit the deep end of the pool. When it comes to politics, you are absolutely clueless. The IG and Durham/Barr Investigation are intentionally being drug out. In politics, Timing is everything. The Dem's are shooting the wad now. It's a run-away-train that will soon derail just like Mueller did on national TV. You have no idea what is unfolding right in front of your eyes. Funny to see You in this position. Stick to the research.

You are the one who is clueless if you think 2016 is the same thing as 2019. This is a whole different ballgame. This is happening in real time and we have Benedict Donald on a phone call illegally asking another country to investigate his opponent in a quid pro quo. People listening in on the phone call has heard what he said and they are testifying against him. These are credible high ranking government officials who have put the country first. The entirety of the phone call is hidden in his classified server and it the House will get the entire call. Benedict Donald only had a brief summary released and sanitized all the incriminating parts out. 20 minutes of that phone call is still hidden in the server. Benedict Donald has violated the Constitution. This is why Benedict Donald is being impeached. And it's a shame that the right supports a criminal and a cheater who has others counties attack our democracy and the election process.   
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 01, 2019, 09:08:19 PM
Royell, is terribly misinformed since Republicans in the primary were trying to use the Steele Dossier first. It's super hypocritical of the right to make this absurd claim when Russia was helping Benedict Donald manufacture bogus smears against Clinton with wikileaks, and Gucifer which is Russian intelligence in a coordinated effort to destroy Clinton with the phony email scandal. Benedict Donald asked for foreign help to dig dirt up on his opponent national t.v. saying "Russier if you're listening". Right then he should have been disqualified from running. But this time with Ukraine he got caught.  Also, almost everything in that Dossier turned out to be accurate. Benedict Donald opened an investigation into Clinton and guess what? No wrong doing was ever found. The New York Times had a small article buried on page 16 after it ran with headlines for months insinuating Clinton was guilty. There's the so called "Liberal Media" for you. That was a fake manufactured scandal and the media went with it.     

  I would recommend that you Read the Glen Simpson congressional testimony. He made clear the Vast Difference between the Repub work they did and the Dem work they did. It is lengthy/time consuming, but worth the effort if you really want to form an educated opinion. 
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 01, 2019, 09:11:39 PM
You are the one who is clueless if you think 2016 is the same thing as 2019. This is a whole different ballgame. This is happening in real time and we have Benedict Donald on a phone call illegally asking another country to investigate his opponent in a quid pro quo. People listening in on the phone call has heard what he said and they are testifying against him. These are credible high ranking government officials who have put the country first. The entirety of the phone call is hidden in his classified server and it the House will get the entire call. Benedict Donald only had a brief summary released and sanitized all the incriminating parts out. 20 minutes of that phone call is still hidden in the server. Benedict Donald has violated the Constitution. This is why Benedict Donald is being impeached. And it's a shame that the right supports a criminal and a cheater who has others counties attack our democracy and the election process.   

   "20 MINUTES of the phone call is Still Hidden in his classified server.............."  Please DOCUMENT that claim.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 01, 2019, 09:14:48 PM
   Brennan and Clapper are Now shaking like leaves. Buck naked. Why else would Brennan dispatch/reveal his mole/whistle blower? Last ditch effort stuff.  The climb up the Deep State food chain continues

Pathetic how the right claims to be patriots when they attack the FBI, CIA, military with their phony propaganda.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 01, 2019, 09:16:35 PM
   "20 MINUTES of the phone call is Still Hidden in his classified server.............."  Please DOCUMENT that claim.

Do some research to find it out instead of listening to right wing propaganda.  Watch the live impeachment hearings, you'll learn a lot.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 01, 2019, 09:53:17 PM
Do some research to find it out instead of listening to right wing propaganda.  Watch the live impeachment hearings, you'll learn a lot.

   So I take it You have absolutely Nothing to Document your "20 MINUTES of the phone call is still hidden in his classified server......" Claim? STOP going myna bird and merely repeating what you hear the Fake News Media throwing around. It makes you look very weak mentally.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 01, 2019, 09:54:36 PM
Walt a staggering sum was invested to influence you and others very similar, to regurgitate such utter nonsense!
Trump was supposed to be "working for" the American people....millions of mid-westerners, conned by the con, just like Walt has been. The most corrupt administration in history, even compared to those Presidents in office eight years or longer, and Walt describes it as REFORM!

What other President has raised hell with the Powers that have been manipulating us since the coup d e'tat in Dallas?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 01, 2019, 10:09:27 PM
What other President has raised hell with the Powers that have been manipulating us since the coup d e'tat in Dallas?

Do you actually think that Trump's cabinet of swamp monsters helped drain the swamp or took it over? The only ones left just haven't got caught yet. Their turns are coming.  It's Putin's swamp now anyways and Trump's base/comrades can suck it.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 01, 2019, 11:34:00 PM
Do you actually think that Trump's cabinet of swamp monsters helped drain the swamp or took it over? The only ones left just haven't got caught yet. Their turns are coming.  It's Putin's swamp now anyways and Trump's base/comrades can suck it.

      Ah yes. All else fails, just tell people to "suck it". Intelligent refutation.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 01, 2019, 11:47:15 PM
      Ah yes. All else fails, just tell people to "suck it". Intelligent refutation.

Royell,

Is that the only "rebuttal" you can come up with?

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on November 02, 2019, 12:01:05 AM
The Stupidity Defense
William B. Turner
 https://medium.com/@wbtphdjd/the-stupidity-defense-1af64f9d89e5 (https://medium.com/@wbtphdjd/the-stupidity-defense-1af64f9d89e5)

"Nixon’s downfall came after he complied with an order from the Supreme Court to release a transcript from recordings he had made of his conversations in the Oval Office, one of which clearly included discussing with his chief of staff how to quash the FBI investigation into the break in at the Watergate Hotel that agents of his 1972 presidential campaign had conducted. Nixon was very smart. He was just crazy. He was a megalomaniac who believed his agenda was important enough to justify breaking the law to achieve.

Trump is crazy, but he is also stupid. He has zero understanding of our Constitution, or even what a constitution is or why anyone would have one. The point of our Constitution is to create a central government that is powerful enough to do the job, but still limited in important ways. Nixon had an enemies list and tried to censor press coverage of the Vietnam War, but he knew he might well lose a battle over the issue in the courts. Trump keeps whining about Saturday Night Live making fun of him and suggesting a federal investigation, apparently not understanding why no such is permissible under our Constitution.

Trump’s end will not much resemble Nixon’s because Trump is too stupid to set a trap for himself as Nixon did. James Comey famously said “Lordy, I hope there will be a tape,” but apparently there are none. Trump does have a history of destroying evidence. He can figure that out. But he is too stupid even to keep his crimes secret. He and his advisors gave multiple reasons for firing Comey, the specific act that prompted the appointment of Robert Mueller as special prosecutor to begin with.

It is a commonplace that one reason not to lie is that one then has to keep track of one’s lies. Trump’s stupidity / mental illness is such that he seems not even to realize he is lying, and he seems incapable of sustaining a thought for two minutes, so he has no hope of lying consistently from one day to the next.
Nixon spoke repeatedly and forcefully about how he thought the investigations into the Watergate break in should end. Trump has whined incessantly about how the Mueller investigation was a “witch hunt” and how there was no collusion between his campaign and any Russian agents.

There may be no single document that plainly reveals illegal conduct in Trump’s case, but the reasonable surmise is that the Mueller investigation has uncovered a large pile of documents that show multiple illegal acts in the aggregate.
The public has the right to know what Mueller found so we can make our own decisions about how deep the rot in the Trump Administration runs and what to do about it.

Attorney General Barr has announced his summary of the Mueller report, which has left many people dissatisfied. Trump has consistently and repeatedly denied any unlawful conduct, but aside from the fact that he lies constantly, there is the related point that he may well have violated the law and just not know it because he is so stupid and so ignorant of the law and legal principles.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse, especially for a president. This is all the more reason why members of Congress and the general public need to see the entire report.

We know Trump is stupid. We need to find out how criminal he is."

I know Trump is criminal, now I will find out how stupid he is. Seems there will be a tape after all.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Walt Cakebread on November 02, 2019, 12:41:10 AM
The Stupidity Defense
William B. Turner
 https://medium.com/@wbtphdjd/the-stupidity-defense-1af64f9d89e5 (https://medium.com/@wbtphdjd/the-stupidity-defense-1af64f9d89e5)

"Nixon’s downfall came after he complied with an order from the Supreme Court to release a transcript from recordings he had made of his conversations in the Oval Office, one of which clearly included discussing with his chief of staff how to quash the FBI investigation into the break in at the Watergate Hotel that agents of his 1972 presidential campaign had conducted. Nixon was very smart. He was just crazy. He was a megalomaniac who believed his agenda was important enough to justify breaking the law to achieve.

Trump is crazy, but he is also stupid. He has zero understanding of our Constitution, or even what a constitution is or why anyone would have one. The point of our Constitution is to create a central government that is powerful enough to do the job, but still limited in important ways. Nixon had an enemies list and tried to censor press coverage of the Vietnam War, but he knew he might well lose a battle over the issue in the courts. Trump keeps whining about Saturday Night Live making fun of him and suggesting a federal investigation, apparently not understanding why no such is permissible under our Constitution.

Trump’s end will not much resemble Nixon’s because Trump is too stupid to set a trap for himself as Nixon did. James Comey famously said “Lordy, I hope there will be a tape,” but apparently there are none. Trump does have a history of destroying evidence. He can figure that out. But he is too stupid even to keep his crimes secret. He and his advisors gave multiple reasons for firing Comey, the specific act that prompted the appointment of Robert Mueller as special prosecutor to begin with.

It is a commonplace that one reason not to lie is that one then has to keep track of one’s lies. Trump’s stupidity / mental illness is such that he seems not even to realize he is lying, and he seems incapable of sustaining a thought for two minutes, so he has no hope of lying consistently from one day to the next.
Nixon spoke repeatedly and forcefully about how he thought the investigations into the Watergate break in should end. Trump has whined incessantly about how the Mueller investigation was a “witch hunt” and how there was no collusion between his campaign and any Russian agents.

There may be no single document that plainly reveals illegal conduct in Trump’s case, but the reasonable surmise is that the Mueller investigation has uncovered a large pile of documents that show multiple illegal acts in the aggregate.
The public has the right to know what Mueller found so we can make our own decisions about how deep the rot in the Trump Administration runs and what to do about it.

Attorney General Barr has announced his summary of the Mueller report, which has left many people dissatisfied. Trump has consistently and repeatedly denied any unlawful conduct, but aside from the fact that he lies constantly, there is the related point that he may well have violated the law and just not know it because he is so stupid and so ignorant of the law and legal principles.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse, especially for a president. This is all the more reason why members of Congress and the general public need to see the entire report.

We know Trump is stupid. We need to find out how criminal he is."

I know Trump is criminal, now I will find out how stupid he is. Seems there will be a tape after all.

Ya, Trump is so stupid he amassed billions.... and he defeated one of the most powerful and ruthless politicians in the US....

And BTW... I'm not a big fan of President Trump, but I am disgusted by those who constantly attack him.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on November 02, 2019, 01:38:15 AM
Ya, Trump is so stupid he amassed billions.... and he defeated one of the most powerful and ruthless politicians in the US....

And BTW... I'm not a big fan of President Trump, but I am disgusted by those who constantly attack him.

His millions were made by laundering his dad's money to avoid taxes.....and how many times has he declared bankruptcy? He is stupid, but not the stupidest.

Not the disease, just a symptom. Real question is how many firefighters you have while Trump fiddles.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tim Nickerson on November 02, 2019, 04:41:59 AM
Orange Man Bad!
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tim Nickerson on November 02, 2019, 04:44:45 AM
Hi Colin. How ya Doing? Is Rome Burning or something? ???
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on November 02, 2019, 05:14:49 AM
Hi Colin. How ya Doing? Is Rome Burning or something? ???

Hi Tim,
Don't ya just love history.

Btw spent 3 weeks in your country in July.....loved it....you have much to be proud of.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 02, 2019, 06:11:29 PM
Ya, Trump is so stupid he amassed billions.... and he defeated one of the most powerful and ruthless politicians in the US....

And BTW... I'm not a big fan of President Trump, but I am disgusted by those who constantly attack him.

Between 1985 and 1994 Trump’s core businesses lost money every single year, and the accumulated losses came to more than a billion dollars. Trump became the biggest money loser in US history and he lost so much that he didn't have to pay income tax for the next 18 years. He has gone bankrupt 6 times, even running a casino into the ground for cripes sakes. Trump is no longer a billionaire and had to launder money for the Rooskies to keep him afloat. He now owes Russia billions and many "favors". Is it any wonder he kisses Putin's ass? The almighty dollar is all Trump cares about. He sure as hell doesn't give a shit about you!

It's also a lie that Trump turned a 1 million dollar loan from his father into a 10 billion+ business empire. Fred Trump willed Donald 400+ million that would have made the Donald more money if he had left it in a savings account. Instead Donny grifted his way thru several decades and bankruptcies into his current mess. He's currently into hoc up to his eyeballs with the Rooskies and beholding to them 100%. Especially for helping him defeat Clinton in 2016. Do you think Trump had a frickin clue how to win on his own merits? He didn't even expect to win. Now all you Trumptards kiss his ring like he's some kind of god sent to destroy the dems. A couple at one of his rallies were wearing t-shirts that read "I'd rather be Russian than a Democrat". Holy shit!

Trump/Alex Jones conspiracy BS gives the CT community a bad name. Otherwise, we reject him and his BS. He is a cancer on democracy and we can only hope that the GOP wake up and realize they've been bamboozled by a reality show huckster. History will not look kindly on the Orange Brigade GOP supporting this imbecile. But that's American politics for you.



Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 03, 2019, 07:49:44 PM
Between 1985 and 1994 Trump’s core businesses lost money every single year, and the accumulated losses came to more than a billion dollars. Trump became the biggest money loser in US history and he lost so much that he didn't have to pay income tax for the next 18 years. He has gone bankrupt 6 times, even running a casino into the ground for cripes sakes. Trump is no longer a billionaire and had to launder money for the Rooskies to keep him afloat. He now owes Russia billions and many "favors". Is it any wonder he kisses Putin's ass? The almighty dollar is all Trump cares about. He sure as hell doesn't give a shit about you!

It's also a lie that Trump turned a 1 million dollar loan from his father into a 10 billion+ business empire. Fred Trump willed Donald 400+ million that would have made the Donald more money if he had left it in a savings account. Instead Donny grifted his way thru several decades and bankruptcies into his current mess. He's currently into hoc up to his eyeballs with the Rooskies and beholding to them 100%. Especially for helping him defeat Clinton in 2016. Do you think Trump had a frickin clue how to win on his own merits? He didn't even expect to win. Now all you Trumptards kiss his ring like he's some kind of god sent to destroy the dems. A couple at one of his rallies were wearing t-shirts that read "I'd rather be Russian than a Democrat". Holy shit!

Trump/Alex Jones conspiracy BS gives the CT community a bad name. Otherwise, we reject him and his BS. He is a cancer on democracy and we can only hope that the GOP wake up and realize they've been bamboozled by a reality show huckster. History will not look kindly on the Orange Brigade GOP supporting this imbecile. But that's American politics for you.

Jack,

I agree with you.

Let us not forget that Trump started laundering money for the Russian Mafia in 1984, and that he may have been recruited or compromised by the "KGB" when he was in Czechoslovakia meeting the family of his first wife.

https://observer-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/observer.com/2018/10/trump-kremlin-ties-mystery-putin-new-evidence/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15728107414988&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fobserver.com%2F2018%2F10%2Ftrump-kremlin-ties-mystery-putin-new-evidence%2F

(Fwiw, I believe Trump has declared bankruptcy "only" four times.)

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 03, 2019, 09:30:18 PM
Jack,

I agree with you.

Let us not forget that Trump started laundering money for the Russian Mafia in 1984, and that he may have been recruited or compromised by the "KGB" when he was in Czechoslovakia meeting the family of his first wife.

https://observer-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/observer.com/2018/10/trump-kremlin-ties-mystery-putin-new-evidence/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15728107414988&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fobserver.com%2F2018%2F10%2Ftrump-kremlin-ties-mystery-putin-new-evidence%2F

(Fwiw, I believe Trump has declared bankruptcy "only" four times.)

--  MWT   ;)

Yes, Trump has yearned to be a Russian mobster/oligarch since the 80s. You just know that he was stupid enough to have a mountain of kompromat on him. He is up to his drug crazed eyeballs in Russian debt and who believes Trump could have resisted several world class Russian hookers coming to his room and pissing on the very bed that the Obamas slept on? Obama is Trump & Putin's common mortal enemy, after all. He might have even been dumb enough to join in.

One thing for sure, is that Trump is an "agent" not just an asset or a useful idiot. Putin has Trump by the shorthairs and once elected his job was to exonerate Russia from the DNC hack, get Russia back in the G7, trash NATO, tear up the Iran nuclear deal, reverse the Magnitsky Act, lift the sanctions on Russia, get out of Syria and leave the oil to the Rooskies (which he will eventually do), stop funding the Ukraine and/or extort them into confessing that it was them instead of Russia that meddled in the 2016 election (and throw Biden under the bus while they're at it), undo every single Obama policy and destroy his legacy.

Working as Putin's puppet has been Trump's mandate from day 1 and he's made no bones about it. Helsinki comes to mind. Trump plays dumb and cites Article 2 of the Constitution as giving him unlimited powers, which he puts to the test every day for his comrade Puty. What choice does he have with that damn pee-pee tape looming over him like a Russian buzzard? In for a penny.

(FWIW: Trump filed for four bankruptcies as of 1992, then PolitiFact uncovered two more bankruptcies filed after 1992, totaling six. Trump Hotels and Casinos Resorts filed for bankruptcy again in 2004, after accruing about $1.8 billion in debt. Trump Entertainment Resorts also declared bankruptcy in 2009, after being hit hard during the 2008 recession.)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 03, 2019, 09:40:13 PM
Yes, Trump has yearned to be a Russian mobster/oligarch since the 80s. You just know that he was stupid enough to have a mountain of kompromat on him. He is up to his drug crazed eyeballs in Russian debt and who believes Trump could have resisted several world class Russian hookers coming to his room and pissing on the very bed that the Obamas slept on? Obama is Trump & Putin's common mortal enemy, after all. He might have even been dumb enough to join in.

One thing for sure, is that Trump is an "agent" not just an asset or a useful idiot. Putin has Trump by the shorthairs and once elected his job was to exonerate Russia from the DNC hack, get Russia back in the G7, trash NATO, tear up the Iran nuclear deal, reverse the Magnitsky Act, lift the sanctions on Russia, get out of Syria and leave the oil to the Rooskies (which he will eventually do), stop funding the Ukraine and/or extort them into confessing that it was them instead of Russia that meddled in the 2016 election (and throw Biden under the bus while they're at it), undo every single Obama policy and destroy his legacy.

Working as Putin's puppet has been Trump's mandate from day 1 and he's made no bones about it. Helsinki comes to mind. Trump plays dumb and cites Article 2 of the Constitution as giving him unlimited powers, which he puts to the test every day for his comrade Puty. What choice does he have with that damn pee-pee tape looming over him like a Russian buzzard? In for a penny.

(FWIW: Trump filed for four bankruptcies as of 1992, then PolitiFact uncovered two more bankruptcies filed after 1992, totaling six. Trump Hotels and Casinos Resorts filed for bankruptcy again in 2004, after accruing about $1.8 billion in debt. Trump Entertainment Resorts also declared bankruptcy in 2009, after being hit hard during the 2008 recession.)

Jack,

Understanding "KGB active measures" as well as I do, it wouldn't surprise me if the FSB fed the pee-pee story to Steele, knowing it would infuriate Trump and give his supporters a plausible reason to scream, "The Trump Dossier is fake!"

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 03, 2019, 09:40:58 PM
     You guys for roughly 3 years hung your hat on Mueller, and Now You are the ones hanging.  You have contracted Trump Derangement Syndrome. Get some help.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 03, 2019, 09:58:40 PM
     You guys for roughly 3 years hung your hat on Mueller, and Now You are the ones hanging.  You have contracted Trump Derangement Syndrome. Get some help.

Royell,

You're full of beans and Putin's propaganda.

Question: Did the Mueller Report exonerate Trump?

With the release of 500 pages of witness statements the other day, it looks more and more as though Paul Manafort and his GRU bud cum business partner Konstantin Kilimnik were two of the people who helped Putin the most in getting "useful idiot" Donnie elected.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 03, 2019, 10:17:05 PM
Jack,

Understanding "KGB active measures" as well as I do, it wouldn't surprise me if the FSB fed the pee-pee story to Steele, knowing it would infuriate Trump and give his supporters a plausible reason to scream, "The Trump Dossier is fake!"

--  MWT  ;)

I'm sure they did feed the pee-pee story to Steele to add to the dossier to infuriate Trump. But given the many sexual assault/rape/pedophilia accusations levelled against Trump (he and Epstein were co-accused of raping a 13 year old girl, who settled out of court, whose story was caught and killed by the Enquirer), I wouldn't doubt the tape actually exists for a second. Putin did attempt to set Trump up and he was given the opportunity to comply. The question is how horny/stupid was he? He wasn't running for office at the time. He was cozying up to his best bud Puty. He went on about the nice fruit basket Puty left him and he bragged about how he barged backstage of the pageant where the scantily clad contestants were changing. He is one sick puppy.

Why anyone would continue to support Trump after all his corrupt and criminal conduct over the decades is just Jonestown sad.

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 03, 2019, 10:58:28 PM
     You guys for roughly 3 years hung your hat on Mueller, and Now You are the ones hanging.  You have contracted Trump Derangement Syndrome. Get some help.

Us guys? You have no idea what I hung my hat on. Mueller was given such a narrow scope to investigate and couldn't pursue any indictable behavior. He wasn't even allowed to look at Trump's fricken tax returns and Trump never responded to any questions re obstruction. The "written" questions re conspiracy (not collusion, which is not a crime) Trump's lawyers answered mostly with "I don't recall".   But it was all the obstruction that prevented Mueller from uncorking Trump's 2016 Russian election interference conspiracy. Who would have guessed that Trump was so stupid that his ultimate undoing would be admitting to his crimes in a redacted memo of his "perfect" Ukraine call?

Don't worry Royell, Mueller's report will come in handy when your boy finally gets turfed and indicted for the many instances of obstruction of justice clearly laid out in the report. Trump would already be bunking with Cohen or Manafort right now if Mueller was allowed to indict him for his many many crimes. It's hilarious how the base parrots the dear leader's "no collusion, no obstruction, total exoneration" mantra, yet I doubt a single Trumper has read the Mueller report. They just know Mueller shit the bed.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 04, 2019, 12:15:32 AM
Do some research to find it out instead of listening to right wing propaganda.  Watch the live impeachment hearings, you'll learn a lot.
   So I take it You have absolutely Nothing to Document your "20 MINUTES of the phone call is still hidden in his classified server......" Claim? STOP going myna bird and merely repeating what you hear the Fake News Media throwing around. It makes you look very weak mentally.

Speaking of "weak mentally," the text in the document (linked from whitehouse.gov) in the image below, the first page of four in total, representing a 30 minute telephone conversation, (should contain many more words, even allowing pauses for translation and even consultation with respective U.S. and Ukraine advisors) reads:
Quote
CAUTION: A Memorandum of a Telephone Conversation.· (TELCON) is not a verbatim transcript of a
discussion.
....
Quote
https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Unclassified09.2019.pdf
Examples of Trump's lies/misrepresentations about the July 25 MEMORANDUM of the call conversation with President of Ukraine, contradicting this, on the whitehouse website, are displayed near the end of this post.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpJuly25callMemorandum.jpg)
Quote
Vindman says White House omitted Trump's reference to Biden
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/30/politics/alexander-vindman-testimony-white-house-transcript/index.html
4 days ago - Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman testified that one example of his ... Trump telling Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky there were tapes of Biden, ...
What other President has raised hell with the Powers that have been manipulating us since the coup d e'tat in Dallas?
Ya, Trump is so stupid he amassed billions.... and he defeated one of the most powerful and ruthless politicians in the US....

And BTW... I'm not a big fan of President Trump, but I am disgusted by those who constantly attack him.
Uhhh....Walt? President Trump is constantly attacking the Constitution of the U.S., which was drafted and ratified to protect us from him and other past and future demagogues!

Quote
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-cabinet-meeting-15/
Remarks by President Trump in Cabinet Meeting
Issued on: October 21, 2019

... I set the world record for somebody without a guitar.  Okay?  I don’t have bands.  All right?

So that’s the story.  And, you know, those people are the Poll:  And I had great polls.  I have my best polls now.  I think it’s because people think that it’s terrible what they’re doing.  Pelosi, Shifty Schiff, Schumer — these people are trying to destroy the country.  It’s a very bad thing, what they’re doing.

The President of the United States should be allowed to run the country, not have to focus on this kind of crap, while at the same time doing a great job with Syria and Turkey and all of the other things that we’re doing....
Quote
Trump's Troubling Rebuke of Congressional Oversight ...
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/trumps-troubling-rebuke-congressional-oversight
May 7, 2019 - As Congress' investigations into the Trump administration heat up, the White House has responded by refusing to comply with many of the ...
Walt, this is a Canadian newspaper, giving up on close tracking, six months ago. How is it, if you were actually informed, you object to those holding the liar and his lies, accountable, instead of supporting them?
Quote
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/analysis/2019/06/05/donald-trump-has-now-said-more-than-5000-false-claims-as-president.html
Donald Trump has now said more than 5,000 false things as president
By Daniel DaleWashington Bureau Chief
Wed., June 5, 2019 timer 262 min. read

     You guys for roughly 3 years hung your hat on Mueller, and Now You are the ones hanging.  You have contracted Trump Derangement Syndrome. Get some help.

Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/a-presidential-loathing-for-ukraine-is-at-the-heart-of-the-impeachment-inquiry/2019/11/02/8280ee60-fcc5-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html
National Security
A presidential loathing for Ukraine is at the heart of the impeachment inquiry
By  Greg Jaffe and  Josh Dawsey
November 2, 2019 at 3:45 p.m. EDT
Three of President Trump’s top advisers met with him in the Oval Office in May, determined to convince him that the new Ukrainian leader was an ally deserving of U.S. support.

They had barely begun their pitch when Trump unloaded on them, according to current and former U.S. officials familiar with the meeting. In Trump’s mind, the officials said, Ukraine’s entire leadership had colluded with the Democrats to undermine his 2016 presidential campaign....
Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/07/25/the-white-houses-facile-comparison-of-the-trump-russia-and-clinton-ukraine-stories/
Fact Checker Analysis
The White House’s facile comparison of the Trump-Russia and Clinton-Ukraine stories
Fact Check: Is the DNC’s contact with Ukraine the same as the Trump campaign’s with Russia?
By Michelle Ye Hee Lee
July 25, 2017 at 3:00 a.m. EDT
“And campaigns involve opposition research, and the situation exchange that was released by Donald Trump Jr., and what was described there is — look at it and compare it to, for instance, the situation with the Ukrainians and the DNC and the Clinton campaign, where information actually was shared.”
— President Trump’s attorney Jay Sekulow, interview on CNN’s “State of the Union,” July 16, 2017

“Frankly, I think something that may make sense is looking at the Democrat National Committee coordinated opposition research directly with the Ukrainian Embassy. This is not an accusation. That’s an on-the-record action that they took. So if you’re looking for an example of a campaign coordinating with a foreign country or a foreign source, look no further than the DNC, who actually coordinated opposition research with the Ukrainian Embassy. And no one in this room, to my knowledge, really had a big problem with that.”
— White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders, briefing, July 10, 2017
....
The Facts
......The Ukraine Story

A Ukrainian American Democratic operative named Alexandra Chalupa began looking into Manafort’s ties to Yanukovych as a part of her volunteer work in 2014, Politico reported.

Chalupa was hired as a consultant to the DNC during the 2016 campaign to help mobilize ethnic communities, including Ukrainian Americans. She left the DNC in July 2016, the DNC said. She continued her research into Manafort on her own, and she said she sometimes shared her findings with officials at the DNC and Clinton’s campaign, Politico reported. Former Clinton campaign officials said they never received information from Chalupa.:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/12/politics/dnc-ukraine-trump-material/index.html

The exact role of embassy officials is unclear. Chalupa told Politico that officials at the Ukrainian Embassy were helpful in providing guidance to her questions, and that the embassy also worked with reporters researching Trump, Manafort and Russia. A top embassy official denied working with reporters or with Chalupa on issues related to Trump or Manafort, but a former embassy officer said he was instructed to help Chalupa on her research.

DNC officials denied that they coordinated with Chalupa on opposition research. Chalupa was not a researcher for the DNC, and the DNC did not incorporate her findings about Manafort, Politico reported. DNC officials told Politico that the Democratic Party had been looking into Trump and his ties to Russia long before Chalupa alerted them.

Chalupa disputed the framing of the Politico story in a Facebook post. “During the 2016 US election, I was a part time consultant for the DNC running an ethnic engagement program,” Chalupa said in a lengthy statement to CNN. “I was not an opposition researcher for the DNC, and the DNC never asked me to go to the Ukrainian Embassy to collect information.”:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/14/politics/dnc-contractor-ukraine-alexandra-chalupa-trump/index.html

What actually ended up hurting the Trump campaign was information released through an anti-corruption investigation by a Ukrainian government agency, which released ledgers that reportedly showed $12.7 million in cash payments from Yanukovych’s party that were earmarked for Manafort.:
https://www.apnews.com/20cfc75c82eb4a67b94e624e97207e23

Serhiy Leshchenko, a Ukrainian lawmaker and former investigative journalist, publicized these ledgers and criticized Manafort. Ultimately, reports about these payments led to Manafort stepping down from his position as Trump campaign chairman.

Key differences

In a broad sense, the stories appear similar: Russia wanted to help Trump, and at least some Ukrainian officials were willing to assist in research that might have helped Clinton. (The Ukrainian government insists it was neutral in the election.).

But when you dig into the details, the comparison falls apart. Of course, one fundamental difference is that Ukraine is considered a U.S. ally and Russia is considered an adversary....


Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/10/30/why-trump-insisted-that-obviously-incomplete-rough-transcript-was-fact-exact/
Politics Analysis
Why Trump insisted that the obviously incomplete rough transcript was, in fact, ‘exact’
Trump claims rough transcript of Ukraine call is 'word for word'
By  Philip Bump  Oct. 30, 2019 at 10:01 a.m. EDT
It’s possible that President Trump set the trap for himself.
On Oct. 2, he first started referring to the rough transcript of his July 25 call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky as an “exact” transcription of the conversation. There was a reason for it: Trump was trying to elevate his criticism of the impeachment inquiry launched by Democrats the day before the transcript came out.

“And this is an exact word-for-word transcript of the conversation, right?” he added.

“Well, it wasn't,” a reporter interjected.

“Taken by very talented stenographers,” Trump insisted.:
https://factba.se/transcript/donald-trump-remarks-bilat-niinisto-finland-october-2-2019
“Listen to me.”

The reporters could listen to Trump or they could read the bottom of the front page of the transcript itself, which states that it is “not a verbatim transcript of a discussion.”

....
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 04, 2019, 03:36:07 AM

You don't care a so called "president" has violated the Constitution and has sold out our country to the Russians? Disgraceful.
This is a Constitutional lawyer doing what you described


I am glad to clear up anything you need
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 04, 2019, 04:06:21 AM
This is a Constitutional lawyer doing what you described


I am glad to clear up anything you need
Not grasping your point, unless it is similar to this. Was Obama supposed to know in 2012, what would happen in 2014?
Quote
Fast-forwarding to December 2016, it is unclear precisely what equivalence, if any, is supposed to exist between Obama’s 2012 vow of “flexibility” and claims that Russia took Trump’s side in the presidential election, but sources such as CNSNews.com emphasized Obama’s persistent criticism of Trump’s alleged closeness to Vladimir Putin:

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNSNews.com
CNSNews.com (formerly known as Cybercast News Service) is a politically conservative American news and commentary website founded by L. Brent Bozell III and owned by Media Research Center, Bozell's Reston, Virginia-based organization.[2][3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Brent_Bozell_III#Views_and_controversies
...
Bozell was an outspoken critic of Donald Trump during the 2016 Republican primaries, describing him as "the greatest charlatan of them all," a "huckster," and a "shameless self-promoter".[32] He said, "God help this country if this man were president."[32] After Trump clinched the Republican nomination, Bozell attacked the media for their "hatred" of Trump.[32] Politico noted, "The paradox here is that Bozell was once more antagonistic toward the president than any journalist."[32] Bozell singled out Jake Tapper of CNN for being "one of the worst offenders" in coverage of Trump, however several senior MRC staff told Politico that they considered Tapper a model of fairness.[32]
In 2014, Russia seized Crimea and invaded eastern Ukraine
Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/03/18/what-history-can-tell-us-about-russia-crimea-and-vladimir-putin/
What history can tell us about Russia, Crimea and Vladimir Putin
March 18, 2014 at 4:25 p.m. EDT
...while Brookings scholar Steven Pifer argued that it was the "most blatant land grab in Europe since WWII."

Quote
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-more-flexibility-russia/

Obama was quoted the following day saying he wasn’t trying to “hide the ball,” and would carry through with negotiations with Russia. In May 2016, after nearly a decade of planning (and over the continued objections of Russia), the NATO missile defense system in Europe was finally launched.

Fast-forwarding to December 2016, it is unclear precisely what equivalence, if any, is supposed to exist between Obama’s 2012 vow of “flexibility” and claims that Russia took Trump’s side in the presidential election, but sources such as CNSNews.com emphasized Obama’s persistent criticism of Trump’s alleged closeness to Vladimir Putin:

While campaigning for Hillary Clinton in October, Obama criticized Republican Donald Trump’s “continued flattery of Mr. Putin and the degree to which he appears to model many of his policies and approaches” after those of Putin.
Quote
https://www.cnn.com/2014/03/24/politics/obama-europe-trip/index.html
U.S., other powers kick Russia out of G8
By Jim Acosta, CNN Senior White House Correspondent

Updated 8:32 PM ET, Mon March 24, 2014
....
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 04, 2019, 05:51:12 AM
Not grasping your point, unless it is similar to this. Was Obama supposed to know in 2012, what would happen in 2014?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Brent_Bozell_III#Views_and_controversies
...
Bozell was an outspoken critic of Donald Trump during the 2016 Republican primaries, describing him as "the greatest charlatan of them all," a "huckster," and a "shameless self-promoter".[32] He said, "God help this country if this man were president."[32] After Trump clinched the Republican nomination, Bozell attacked the media for their "hatred" of Trump.[32] Politico noted, "The paradox here is that Bozell was once more antagonistic toward the president than any journalist."[32] Bozell singled out Jake Tapper of CNN for being "one of the worst offenders" in coverage of Trump, however several senior MRC staff told Politico that they considered Tapper a model of fairness.[32]

In 2014, Russia seized Crimea and invaded eastern Ukraine
Very simple listen and don't confuse yourself by conflating.  It is very funny if a person is going to talk about who violated the constitution but now mix psychobabble from has-beens like Bozell to the me me me frauds like Acosta & Tapper. All three are the same to me. Answer the simple question what is the difference between Clinton & Bush or between Obama & Bush or between Obama & Clinton? Answer: Nothing  So what are their similarities? Tax and Spend Big Government, Wars with no objective. To general for you? How about the Rules of engagement, then tell me what gossip you were hearing out of dysfunctional media or the schoolboy thinktanks?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 04, 2019, 06:05:57 AM
Very simple listen and don't confuse yourself by conflating.  It is very funny if a person is going to talk about who violated the constitution but now mix psychobabble from has-beens like Bozell to the me me me frauds like Acosta & Tapper. All three are the same to me. Answer the simple question what is the difference between Clinton & Bush or between Obama & Bush or between Obama & Clinton? Answer: Nothing  So what are their similarities? Tax and Spend Big Government, Wars with no objective. To general for you? How about the Rules of engagement, then tell me what gossip you were hearing out of dysfunctional media or the schoolboy thinktanks?

*Constitution

--  MWT    ::)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 04, 2019, 06:14:05 AM
*Constitution

--  MWT    ::)

constitution
The same result Grammarly is very liberal.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 04, 2019, 06:53:42 AM

constitution
The same result Grammarly is very liberal.

Funny how when I google "the constitution" it comes up "the Constitution".

It probably doesn't matter, though, for Trump supporters who have, by definition, a weak mental and/or ethical constitution.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 04, 2019, 07:00:27 AM
Very simple listen and don't confuse yourself by conflating.  It is very funny if a person is going to talk about who violated the constitution but now mix psychobabble from has-beens like Bozell to the me me me frauds like Acosta & Tapper. All three are the same to me. Answer the simple question what is the difference between Clinton & Bush or between Obama & Bush or between Obama & Clinton? Answer: Nothing  So what are their similarities? Tax and Spend Big Government, Wars with no objective. To general for you? How about the Rules of engagement, then tell me what gossip you were hearing out of dysfunctional media or the schoolboy thinktanks?

I post this whenever it seems relevant. I understand your arguments.

Quote
The peril of valuing celebrity over history - The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/opinion/30iht-edcarroll.4.6900205.html
By JAMES CARROLL JULY 30, 2007. ..Like Upton Sinclair, Sinclair Lewis was profoundly countercultural, but he was an omni-directional satirist, and his 1935 forecast of American fascism, "It Can't Happen Here," included a portrait of Upton Sinclair as a political nutcase... ...In the emerging Democratic consensus, forged by Congressional leaders and presidential front-runners, supposedly in opposition to President Bush's war, "out now" is becoming "out when conditions permit" - which is, of course, Bush's exact position. Such conditions will never come; therefore - Garrison Forever.

Yet, speaking of history, this conjuring of the appearance of opposition where none actually exists has been mandated by the American political system since the onset of the Cold War. The quadrennial political puppet show, highlighting not opposition but its appearance, is essential to keeping the captive-taking war machine running and to inoculating the American people from the viral knowledge that they themselves were first to be captured....

...the profit-worshipping economy to this day eludes controls that would protect majorities of citizens in this country and across the world. Sinclair Lewis, for his part, showed how the simultaneously banalizing methods of capitalist enterprise (false advertising, consumerism, pieties of affluence, amoral bureaucracy) are exactly what that enterprise created to keep from being criticized....

I see differences in the two parties at the executive level, just not often enough material distance. I see no practical reason for the republican party considering its history. Against Social Security, 1936-40, against supporting the UK militarily, after the fall of France. This "show of gratitude" to the 12 million returned troops from WWII.:

Quote
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act_of_1935
The National Labor Relations Act of 1935 (also known as the Wagner Act) is a foundational statute of United States labor law which guarantees the right of private sector employees to organize into trade unions, engage in collective bargaining, and take collective action such as strikes.

....and signed into law by President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

The National Labor Relations Act seeks to correct the "inequality of bargaining power" between employers and employees by promoting collective bargaining between trade unions and employers. The law established the National Labor Relations Board to prosecute violations of labor law and to oversee the process by which employees decide whether to be represented by a labor organization. It also established various rules concerning collective bargaining and defined a series of banned unfair labor practices, including interference with the formation or organization of labor unions by employers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft–Hartley_Act
.....
The act continued to generate opposition after Truman left office, but it remains in effect.

The Taft–Hartley Act amended the 1935 National Labor Relations Act (NLRA), prohibiting unions from engaging in several "unfair labor practices." Among the practices prohibited by the act are jurisdictional strikes, wildcat strikes, solidarity or political strikes, secondary boycotts, secondary and mass picketing, closed shops, and monetary donations by unions to federal political campaigns. The NLRA also allowed states to pass right-to-work laws banning union shops.
.......
Vetoed by President Harry S. Truman on June 20, 1947
Overridden by the House on June 20, 1947 (331-83)
Overridden by the Senate and became law on June 23, 1947 (68-25)

Clinton era debt spending over 8 years was less than the four year Bush '41 presidency. The total federal gov employment level fell during the 8 year Clinton presidency, unprecedented in recent times. Clinton refused to sign five bills passed by both houses to "reform" bankruptcy and included no medical expense related exemption.Biden, aka "the Senator from MBNA," shepherded those bankruptcy bills through the senate, in service to his MBNA masters.

Bankruptcy "Reform" legislation was accomplished under Bush '43. Under '43, the national debt nearly doubled. From the start, incoming republican administrations are committed to waging political war against women, and against their access to healthcare and interfere in every way with their freedom to determine what occurs inside their own bodies.

Obama era wrestled the annual federal deficit to $677 billion by the year ending 09/30/17. Look at 'er, now. On the environment, Trump endeavors to grant every industry lobbyist's wishlist, under Obama, not so much.

Consider the five, white male justices Bush '43 and Trump appointed to the SCOTUS. Consider the cynical Bush '41 appointment of white wing extremist Clarence Thomas to the SCOTUS seat formerly held by Justice Thurgood Marshall.

The democrats look like and appoint people who look nearly as diverse as in the majority of larger American communities.

Clinton's appointment of Ruth Bader Ginsburg to the SCOTUS (a career path emulating Thurgood Marshall's public service) is a justification to reflect on the question, are democrats all we have? If yes, are they better than nothing? What is any other workable option that would approximate the political clout of the synergy of the 236 member, democratic caucus in the House.... not an option of maybe in ten years, but how to become an honest, responsive, public service committed, something attractive to voters in the next six months, in time to run successfully for all of those House seats.

Republicans traded their party to Trump. What should the democrats trade their party for?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 04, 2019, 05:56:02 PM
Speaking of "weak mentally," the text in the document (linked from whitehouse.gov) in the image below, the first page of four in total, representing a 30 minute telephone conversation, (should contain many more words, even allowing pauses for translation and even consultation with respective U.S. and Ukraine advisors) reads:Uhhh....Walt? President Trump is constantly attacking the Constitution of the U.S., which was drafted and ratified to protect us from him and other past and future demagogues!

Walt, this is a Canadian newspaper, giving up on close tracking, six months ago. How is it, if you were actually informed, you object to those holding the liar and his lies, accountable, instead of supporting them?

  Are YOU now also claiming that, "20 MINUTES of the phone call is Still Hidden in his classified server"? If you have Evidence to corroborate "20 MINUTES" of the call being hidden, please proffer it.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 04, 2019, 09:49:42 PM
   So I take it You have absolutely Nothing to Document your "20 MINUTES of the phone call is still hidden in his classified server......" Claim? STOP going myna bird and merely repeating what you hear the Fake News Media throwing around. It makes you look very weak mentally.

No, you're too weak to do some basic research. The mentally weak listen to right wing propaganda each day and eat it up like it facts. The mentally weak listen to right wing hacks on tv each night telling them how to think. Sound familiar? Do some basic research. It's not that hard.   
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 04, 2019, 09:53:12 PM
Ya, Trump is so stupid he amassed billions.... and he defeated one of the most powerful and ruthless politicians in the US....

And BTW... I'm not a big fan of President Trump, but I am disgusted by those who constantly attack him.

Benedict Donald is broke. He is selling off his slush fund building in DC and is moving to Florida. Court just ruled he has to turn over his taxes and a New York grand jury is in full swing about to indict him. 
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 04, 2019, 09:55:20 PM
Jack,

I agree with you.

Let us not forget that Trump started laundering money for the Russian Mafia in 1984, and that he may have been recruited or compromised by the "KGB" when he was in Czechoslovakia meeting the family of his first wife.

https://observer-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/observer.com/2018/10/trump-kremlin-ties-mystery-putin-new-evidence/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15728107414988&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fobserver.com%2F2018%2F10%2Ftrump-kremlin-ties-mystery-putin-new-evidence%2F

(Fwiw, I believe Trump has declared bankruptcy "only" four times.)

--  MWT   ;)


Don't forget Thomas his corrupt kids said "they get all their money from Russia". 
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 04, 2019, 09:59:32 PM
     You guys for roughly 3 years hung your hat on Mueller, and Now You are the ones hanging.  You have contracted Trump Derangement Syndrome. Get some help.

Buzzfeed and CNN used the Freedom of Information Act and obtained Mueller's memos and released them to the public which shows clear collusion between Russia and Benedict Donald.  I know you don't research anything but go take a look. Also, the transcripts released by the House shows what a thug Benedict Donald is and the quid pro quo involvement with Ukraine.   
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 04, 2019, 10:01:07 PM
No, you're too weak to do some basic research. The mentally weak listen to right wing propaganda each day and eat it up like it facts. The mentally weak listen to right wing hacks on tv each night telling them how to think. Sound familiar? Do some basic research. It's not that hard.

     Still waiting for Evidence to corroborate YOUR claim of "20 MINUTES of the phone call is Still Hidden in the classified server".  1st YOU made the claim that "70-90%" of the Steele Dossier was "Accurate". YOU were Unable to supply Any Evidence to corroborate that claim. Now, YOU are unable to provide Any Evidence to corroborate this claim. Strike 3 will make YOU a Scroll By Poster. Up-To-YOU 
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 04, 2019, 10:08:55 PM
Buzzfeed and CNN used the Freedom of Information Act and obtained Mueller's memos and released them to the public which shows clear collusion between Russia and Benedict Donald.  I know you don't research anything but go take a look. Also, the transcripts released by the House shows what a thug Benedict Donald is and the quid pro quo involvement with Ukraine.

      Do Not Generally TELL me what is inside these sources, go ahead and actually Post the Alleged Evidence/Quotes from either/both of Your sources. Your Claims, Your Burden Of Proof. I am waiting on YOU.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 05, 2019, 01:59:53 AM
     Still waiting for Evidence to corroborate YOUR claim of "20 MINUTES of the phone call is Still Hidden in the classified server".  1st YOU made the claim that "70-90%" of the Steele Dossier was "Accurate". YOU were Unable to supply Any Evidence to corroborate that claim. Now, YOU are unable to provide Any Evidence to corroborate this claim. Strike 3 will make YOU a Scroll By Poster. Up-To-YOU

I doubt the full transcript is on the super secret server, but enough of it so that the WH lawyer Eisenberg ignored his subpoena so he didn't have to testify why he put it there. What's with all the obstruction of congress, anyway? Trump claimed it was "word for word, comma for comma", ellipses for ellipses. Have you even read the memo Royell? It's only 5 pages. If you time yourself reading it you will not come up with the 30 minute duration of the call. You can do the math re how much is missing. 20 minutes sounds about right to me. And while the 20 minutes is probably not on the server, some of it likely is including some of the redacted parts. You know, the parts where Eisenberg thought to himself, holy shit this Ukraine call has got to be heavily redacted and deep-sixed, pronto!
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 05, 2019, 02:23:28 AM
I post this whenever it seems relevant. I understand your arguments.

I see differences in the two parties at the executive level, just not often enough material distance. I see no practical reason for the republican party considering its history. Against Social Security, 1936-40, against supporting the UK militarily, after the fall of France. This "show of gratitude" to the 12 million returned troops from WWII.:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft–Hartley_Act
.....
The act continued to generate opposition after Truman left office, but it remains in effect.

The Taft–Hartley Act amended the 1935 National Labor Relations Act (NLRA), prohibiting unions from engaging in several "unfair labor practices." Among the practices prohibited by the act are jurisdictional strikes, wildcat strikes, solidarity or political strikes, secondary boycotts, secondary and mass picketing, closed shops, and monetary donations by unions to federal political campaigns. The NLRA also allowed states to pass right-to-work laws banning union shops.
.......
Vetoed by President Harry S. Truman on June 20, 1947
Overridden by the House on June 20, 1947 (331-83)
Overridden by the Senate and became law on June 23, 1947 (68-25)


Clinton era debt spending over 8 years was less than the four year Bush '41 presidency. The total federal gov employment level fell during the 8 year Clinton presidency, unprecedented in recent times. Clinton refused to sign five bills passed by both houses to "reform" bankruptcy and included no medical expense related exemption.Biden, aka "the Senator from MBNA," shepherded those bankruptcy bills through the senate, in service to his MBNA masters.

Bankruptcy "Reform" legislation was accomplished under Bush '43. Under '43, the national debt nearly doubled. From the start, incoming republican administrations are committed to waging political war against women, and against their access to healthcare and interfere in every way with their freedom to determine what occurs inside their own bodies.

Obama era wrestled the annual federal deficit to $677 billion by the year ending 09/30/17. Look at 'er, now. On the environment, Trump endeavors to grant every industry lobbyist's wishlist, under Obama, not so much.

Consider the five, white male justices Bush '43 and Trump appointed to the SCOTUS. Consider the cynical Bush '41 appointment of white wing extremist Clarence Thomas to the SCOTUS seat formerly held by Justice Thurgood Marshall.

The democrats look like and appoint people who look nearly as diverse as in the majority of larger American communities.

Clinton's appointment of Ruth Bader Ginsburg to the SCOTUS (a career path emulating Thurgood Marshall's public service) is a justification to reflect on the question, are democrats all we have? If yes, are they better than nothing? What is any other workable option that would approximate the political clout of the synergy of the 236 member, democratic caucus in the House.... not an option of maybe in ten years, but how to become an honest, responsive, public service committed, something attractive to voters in the next six months, in time to run successfully for all of those House seats.

Republicans traded their party to Trump. What should the democrats trade their party for?

Are you on LSD? Please tell me you are.  Tell me that Wilson was your favorite President.   
I like you, you carry on the tradition of story-telling. Great entertainment. Make your own predictions.
And remember to bet with your wallet and not your heart.
Don't worry Hillary is running but you thought they would let Warren run with that 52 trillion dollar plan?
It sure is fun to dream, I mean, watch people dream! Snap out of it or is the dose not wearing off yet?
Enlighten me with your wonderful stories, more about The Great " I am woman hear me roar" Ginsburg
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 05, 2019, 02:28:00 AM
Buzzfeed and CNN used the Freedom of Information Act and obtained Mueller's memos and released them to the public which shows clear collusion between Russia and Benedict Donald.  I know you don't research anything but go take a look. Also, the transcripts released by the House shows what a thug Benedict Donald is and the quid pro quo involvement with Ukraine.
Promises promises ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 05, 2019, 03:39:53 AM
I doubt the full transcript is on the super secret server, but enough of it so that the WH lawyer Eisenberg ignored his subpoena so he didn't have to testify why he put it there. What's with all the obstruction of congress, anyway? Trump claimed it was "word for word, comma for comma", ellipses for ellipses. Have you even read the memo Royell? It's only 5 pages. If you time yourself reading it you will not come up with the 30 minute duration of the call. You can do the math re how much is missing. 20 minutes sounds about right to me. And while the 20 minutes is probably not on the server, some of it likely is including some of the redacted parts. You know, the parts where Eisenberg thought to himself, holy shit this Ukraine call has got to be heavily redacted and deep-sixed, pronto!

       As usual, the above is Pure Speculation. Why not just trot the Whistle Blower out there and let him tell everyone the whole story? Why? Because the guy Never heard the actual phone conversation to begin with. Upon the Whistle Blower being publicly ID'd and revealed as being tied to Schiff and Brennan, this latest Hoax will whither on the Fake News vine. The real news will be when the IG Report and then the Durham/Barr Investigation travel Up the Obama Food Chain and reveal their attempting to infiltrate and torpedo the Trump campaign. The Dem's/Schiff are currently shooting the works in a desperately futile attempt to remove Trump from office. They should have kept their powder dry, but what else can one expect?  Schiff is the same guy that for 2 years claimed he had Solid Evidence of Trump/Russia collusion.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 05, 2019, 05:31:38 AM
I doubt the full transcript is on the super secret server, but enough of it so that the WH lawyer Eisenberg ignored his subpoena so he didn't have to testify why he put it there. What's with all the obstruction of congress, anyway? Trump claimed it was "word for word, comma for comma", ellipses for ellipses. Have you even read the memo Royell? It's only 5 pages. If you time yourself reading it you will not come up with the 30 minute duration of the call. You can do the math re how much is missing. 20 minutes sounds about right to me. And while the 20 minutes is probably not on the server, some of it likely is including some of the redacted parts. You know, the parts where Eisenberg thought to himself, holy shit this Ukraine call has got to be heavily redacted and deep-sixed, pronto!
Were you half asleep when you developed your opinion about the phone call.
 You seem to have a version from late-nite TV  or wait, I mixed up those Dem debates with a Jimmy Kimmel show. 
Is there a difference? The audience in the background screaming obnoxiously was identical.
Forgive me, I figured it out, you received your first version of the phone call from MTV News. 
Then Jack puts on his gossipping 3rd-grade girl thinking cap "yep this is it, I knew it, just as I thought the whole time"
A whistleblower that was listening to a phone call ????
Jack takes it seriously.  ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 05, 2019, 07:06:13 AM
Were you half asleep when you developed your opinion about the phone call.
 You seem to have a version from late-nite TV  or wait, I mixed up those Dem debates with a Jimmy Kimmel show. 
Is there a difference? The audience in the background screaming obnoxiously was identical.
Forgive me, I figured it out, you received your first version of the phone call from MTV News. 
Then Jack puts on his gossipping 3rd-grade girl thinking cap "yep this is it, I knew it, just as I thought the whole time"
A whistleblower that was listening to a phone call ????
Jack takes it seriously.  ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Peter,

You're extremely "funny" in a wierdo kind of way.

--  MWT   :D

PS  "A whistleblower that was listening to a [sic] phone call?"

Hint:  That was his or her job.

Time Magazine:

U.S. intelligence agencies are authorized to monitor the calls of certain foreign leaders in order to collect intelligence on the “activities and intentions of a foreign power,” the official says. During one of those calls, according to the official, President Trump made “certain representations concerning U.S. policy” during the call that the whistleblower “found troubling.”

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 05, 2019, 05:20:13 PM
Peter,

You're so funny in a strange kind of way!

--  MWT   :D

PS  "A whistleblower that was listening to a [sic] phone call?"

Hint:  That was his or her job.

Time Magazine:

U.S. intelligence agencies are authorized to monitor the calls of certain foreign leaders in order to collect intelligence on the “activities and intentions of a foreign power,” the official says. During one of those calls, according to the official, President Trump made “certain representations concerning U.S. policy” during the call that the whistleblower “found troubling.”

     You have been sucked in by the Fake News Media. Schiff's Whistle Blower was NOT listening in on the Trump phone call. The alleged Whistle Blower has NEVER heard the actual phone call.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 05, 2019, 05:29:01 PM
     You have been sucked in by the Fake News Media. Schiff's Whistle Blower was NOT listening in on the Trump phone call. The alleged Whistle Blower has NEVER heard the actual phone call.

Royell,

Maybe you're right.

But it doesn't matter now because insider witnesses to the effects of the alleged quid pro quo "offer" or "suggestion" have given corroborating testimony.

Your boy, Putin's useful idiot Trump, is going down.

Get over it.

And oh goodie, Roger Stone's federal court jury trial starts today!

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 05, 2019, 06:00:28 PM
Royell,

Maybe you're right.

But it doesn't matter now because insider witnesses to the effects of the alleged quid pro quo "offer" or "suggestion" have given corroborating testimony.

Your boy, Putin's useful idiot Trump, is going down.

Get over it.

And oh goodie, Roger Stone's federal court jury trial starts today!

--  MWT  ;)

     Sure it matters. It matters because The Chair/Schiff aided with the filing of the complaint while the Whistle Blower Never actually having heard the phone call.  Plus, Schiff initially denied having Any contact with the Whistle Blower. Now that Schiff has been once again revealed to be a liar, the Dem's are running away from the Whistle Blower.
     Maybe you need to count the votes in the Senate? 20 Repubs need to vote for impeachment for Trump to "go down".   The Dem's know they need to hunker down for the IG Report & the Durham/Barr investigation. The damage there will be devastating and impact the 2020 election at several Fed levels.
      You are focused on Roger Stone while today is an Election Day. Such is the fallout when suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome. 1 and only 1 priority.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 05, 2019, 06:34:55 PM
     Sure it matters. It matters because The Chair/Schiff aided with the filing of the complaint while the Whistle Blower Never actually having heard the phone call.  Plus, Schiff initially denied having Any contact with the Whistle Blower. Now that Schiff has been once again revealed to be a liar, the Dem's are running away from the Whistle Blower.
     Maybe you need to count the votes in the Senate? 20 Repubs need to vote for impeachment for Trump to "go down".   The Dem's know they need to hunker down for the IG Report & the Durham/Barr investigation. The damage there will be devastating and impact the 2020 election at several Fed levels.
      You are focused on Roger Stone while today is an Election Day. Such is the fallout when suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome. 1 and only 1 priority.

Royell,

Schiff didn't have and direct contact with the whistleblower, and apologized for not being clear about that.

Get over it.

--  MWT  ;)

PS  When I posted my previous post, I was fully aware of what's going down today in states like Kentucky, Virginia, and Mississippi, for example, and certain big-city mayorial races, as well.

Are you?

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/05/7-things-to-watch-on-election-day-2019-065794
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 05, 2019, 07:34:29 PM
Were you half asleep when you developed your opinion about the phone call.
 You seem to have a version from late-nite TV  or wait, I mixed up those Dem debates with a Jimmy Kimmel show. 
Is there a difference? The audience in the background screaming obnoxiously was identical.
Forgive me, I figured it out, you received your first version of the phone call from MTV News. 
Then Jack puts on his gossipping 3rd-grade girl thinking cap "yep this is it, I knew it, just as I thought the whole time"
A whistleblower that was listening to a phone call ????
Jack takes it seriously.  ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

You Fox "News" :D Hannity Brigade need to get out more. Why are you regurgitating Trump talking points when you know he's a pathological bullshitter and a CT nutbar?

Batten down the hatches, the Dems are trying to undo the 2016 election by impeaching Trump over a PERFECT call! I mean it was perfection to the nth degree. Bigly perfect! Just ask Fox & Friends how perfect it was. That is, after they redacted the hell out of it and Eisenberg deep-sixed it on a secret server. But you don't believe any of that "Fake News", do you?  :D  2 emojis in 1 post!

READ THE TRANSCRIPT!!! (memo) if you can/dare and get back to me...btw, how old are you?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 05, 2019, 07:55:21 PM
     You have been sucked in by the Fake News Media. Schiff's Whistle Blower was NOT listening in on the Trump phone call. The alleged Whistle Blower has NEVER heard the actual phone call.

Royell, why does the whistle blower's identity matter when his/her complaint has been corroborated by several people that were listening to the call and testified under oath? You have to venture out of your Fox News bubble and get with the game.

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and other State Department leaders were silent when faced with a campaign from Rudy Giuliani to oust then-US Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch amid concerns that President Donald Trump would undermine them, according to testimony released from Yovanovitch and former State Department official Michael McKinley.

Transcripts of Yovanovitch and McKinley's closed-door depositions, which were released Monday by the committees leading the impeachment inquiry into Trump and Ukraine, show that McKinley cited Yovanovitch's removal and the use of ambassadors "to advance domestic political objectives" as reasons for his resignation last month. McKinley testified that he raised the idea of sending a statement of support for Yovanovitch three separate times with Pompeo and never received a substantive response.

Why did Pompeo blatantly lie about being approached 3 times by McKinley to stand up for Ambassador Yovanovitch? He claimed McKinley never mentioned it. Why do you continue to support these corrupt bastards? Is it because all's fair in love and war when it comes to the Deep State?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 05, 2019, 09:31:37 PM
Royell,

Schiff didn't have and direct contact with the whistleblower, and apologized for not being clear about that.

Get over it.

--  MWT  ;)

PS  When I posted my previous post, I was fully aware of what's going down today in states like Kentucky, Virginia, and Mississippi, for example, and certain big-city mayorial races, as well.

Are you?

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/05/7-things-to-watch-on-election-day-2019-065794

    Cut the baloney. Schiff clearly said "WE" when he initially went into his song-n-dance about claiming to have had NO Contact with the Whistle Blower. Politicians such as Schiff are Word Smiths. They Know EXACTLY the verbiage they are using. He got caught in Another lie, plain and simple. 
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 05, 2019, 09:49:41 PM
Royell, why does the whistle blower's identity matter when his/her complaint has been corroborated by several people that were listening to the call and testified under oath? You have to venture out of your Fox News bubble and get with the game.

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and other State Department leaders were silent when faced with a campaign from Rudy Giuliani to oust then-US Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch amid concerns that President Donald Trump would undermine them, according to testimony released from Yovanovitch and former State Department official Michael McKinley.

Transcripts of Yovanovitch and McKinley's closed-door depositions, which were released Monday by the committees leading the impeachment inquiry into Trump and Ukraine, show that McKinley cited Yovanovitch's removal and the use of ambassadors "to advance domestic political objectives" as reasons for his resignation last month. McKinley testified that he raised the idea of sending a statement of support for Yovanovitch three separate times with Pompeo and never received a substantive response.

Why did Pompeo blatantly lie about being approached 3 times by McKinley to stand up for Ambassador Yovanovitch? He claimed McKinley never mentioned it. Why do you continue to support these corrupt bastards? Is it because all's fair in love and war when it comes to the Deep State?

    You are specifically referencing the words/actions of Giuliani and Pompeo.  I thought the Schiff Railroad was targeting Trump?  Focus on the actual words/actions of Trump. Witnesses stating why they "resigned" or Think they were Fired is Proof of Nothing. It is Opinion. Ambassadors, Cabinet Members, etc, serve at the discretion of the POTUS. POTUS can Fire them for Any Reason or No Reason. (See James Comey)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 05, 2019, 09:58:39 PM
     Still waiting for Evidence to corroborate YOUR claim of "20 MINUTES of the phone call is Still Hidden in the classified server".  1st YOU made the claim that "70-90%" of the Steele Dossier was "Accurate". YOU were Unable to supply Any Evidence to corroborate that claim. Now, YOU are unable to provide Any Evidence to corroborate this claim. Strike 3 will make YOU a Scroll By Poster. Up-To-YOU

No, it's up to you to do some simple research. Google is a wonderful tool. Right wingers need everything spoonfed to them because they are unable to think for themselves and research any information.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 05, 2019, 10:01:08 PM
      Do Not Generally TELL me what is inside these sources, go ahead and actually Post the Alleged Evidence/Quotes from either/both of Your sources. Your Claims, Your Burden Of Proof. I am waiting on YOU.

Do some simple research and find out for yourself. Google "Mueller memos". You can do it Royell, we all have faith in you that you can go to Google and do a simple research.   
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 05, 2019, 10:03:14 PM
     Sure it matters. It matters because The Chair/Schiff aided with the filing of the complaint while the Whistle Blower Never actually having heard the phone call.  Plus, Schiff initially denied having Any contact with the Whistle Blower. Now that Schiff has been once again revealed to be a liar, the Dem's are running away from the Whistle Blower.
     Maybe you need to count the votes in the Senate? 20 Repubs need to vote for impeachment for Trump to "go down".   The Dem's know they need to hunker down for the IG Report & the Durham/Barr investigation. The damage there will be devastating and impact the 2020 election at several Fed levels.
      You are focused on Roger Stone while today is an Election Day. Such is the fallout when suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome. 1 and only 1 priority.

Still parroting your right wing propaganda? Others have heard the call and  a Quid pro quo has been established. They have already testified that it is.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 05, 2019, 10:08:34 PM
Benedict Donald's corrupt GOP allies have recently begun to embrace a new defense that Trump might have sought a quid pro quo, but that doing so is neither improper nor impeachable.  So, right wingers are admitting his guilt, but are turning a blind eye to his crime and allowing him to piss on the Consititution and our democracy by welcoming foreign interference to help him win an election since he is incapable of doing it on his own.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 05, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Gordon Sondland went back and provided the House impeachment inquiry with four pages of revised testimony this week, in which he confirms that Benedict Donald was running a quid pro quo, and admits to his own role in carrying it out. Gordon decided he didn't want a perjury charge against him so he spilled the beans.  It's hard for right wingers to defend this.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 05, 2019, 10:47:24 PM
Gordon Sondland went back and provided the House impeachment inquiry with four pages of revised testimony this week, in which he confirms that Benedict Donald was running a quid pro quo, and admits to his own role in carrying it out. Gordon decided he didn't want a perjury charge against him so he spilled the beans.  It's hard for right wingers to defend this.

      Why not just admit the guy went back and ALTERED his Testimony?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 05, 2019, 10:54:02 PM
    Cut the baloney. Schiff clearly said "WE" when he initially went into his song-n-dance about claiming to have had NO Contact with the Whistle Blower. Politicians such as Schiff are Word Smiths. They Know EXACTLY the verbiage they are using. He got caught in Another lie, plain and simple.

Royell,

You're mistaken. 

Wallowing in JFK assassination conspiracy theories has damaged your brain, I'm afraid.

New York Times:

"Attorneys representing the member of the U.S. intelligence community who filed the whistleblower complaint have said their client met with a member of Schiff's staff to seek guidance about how to report concerns about the president's phone call with the Ukrainian president. A committee spokesman said the staff member directed the individual to hire a lawyer and approach the intelligence community inspector general."

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 05, 2019, 10:58:55 PM
Royell,

You're mistaken. 

Wallowing in JFK assassination conspiracy theories has damaged your brain, I'm afraid.

New York Times:

"Attorneys representing the member of the U.S. intelligence community who filed the whistleblower complaint have said their client met with a member of Schiff's staff to seek guidance about how to report concerns about the president's phone call with the Ukrainian president. A committee spokesman said the staff member directed the individual to hire a lawyer and approach the intelligence community inspector general."

--  MWT  ;)

    As I said, Schiff Specifically said "WE" when claiming No contact with the Whistleblower.  You are hearing what You want to hear. Yet another sign of Trump Derangement Syndrome. Get Help
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 05, 2019, 11:08:17 PM
    As I said, Schiff Specifically said "WE" when claiming No contact with the Whistleblower.  You are hearing what You want to hear. Yet another sign of Trump Derangement Syndrome. Get Help

"Sport," you're serving us last month's "where's the whistleblower?" and three years old derangement talking points.
Your responses aren't relevant. It is one thing for Trump to robotize Royell and his ilk, quite another for Sondland to save Trump.
Quote
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/05/sondland-reverses-himself-on-ukraine-quid-pro-quo-000318

CONGRESS Updated: 11/05/2019 04:10 PM EST
Sondland reverses himself on Ukraine, confirming quid pro quo
A key figure in the Ukraine saga revised his testimony for impeachment investigators.
....“After that large meeting, I now recall speaking individually with Mr. Yermak, where I said that resumption of U.S. aid would likely not occur until Ukraine provided the public anti-corruption statement that we had been discussing for many weeks,” Sondland wrote in his addendum, which was released on Tuesday alongside a nearly 400-page transcript of his testimony.

Sondland revealed the exchange in supplemental testimony he submitted to House impeachment investigators on Monday, saying he had failed to recall the episode when he testified in person last month. Sondland, who had a direct line to Trump and was a major donor to his 2016 presidential campaign, had previously indicated he was not aware of any effort to connect military aid to Trump’s demand for politically motivated investigations......

....Trump’s allies initially believed Sondland would provide exculpatory evidence to boost the president's case, but subsequent witnesses had contradicted many of Sondland’s claims — and Democratic lawmakers even questioned whether he had perjured himself, likely prompting Sondland’s addendum.

The nearly 400-page transcript of Sondland’s Oct. 17 testimony underscores the power and influence Rudy Giuliani had over U.S. dealings with Ukraine.....
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 05, 2019, 11:13:30 PM
      Why not just admit the guy went back and ALTERED his Testimony?

Gordon decided he didn't want to get nailed for felony perjury so he decided to fess up and tell the truth. Gordon now exposes the bribery and extortion of Benedict Donald.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 05, 2019, 11:14:59 PM
    You are specifically referencing the words/actions of Giuliani and Pompeo.  I thought the Schiff Railroad was targeting Trump?  Focus on the actual words/actions of Trump. Witnesses stating why they "resigned" or Think they were Fired is Proof of Nothing. It is Opinion. Ambassadors, Cabinet Members, etc, serve at the discretion of the POTUS. POTUS can Fire them for Any Reason or No Reason. (See James Comey)

Sure Trump can fire anyone he wants, but he can't fire them so he can withhold money from a foreign gov and extort them into confessing to a crime they didn't commit and making up false charges against a political rival to influence the 2020 election. That's against at least 2 or 3 laws.

Imagine how loaded your pants would be if Hillary Clinton was POTUS and did the same thing to Mitt Romney. Scratch that. You think Romney is Deep State as well, don't you? You're cheering on the dear leader to roll up his sleeves and fight the good fight and thwart the coup! Good luck with that.

Oh no! Sondland just flipped on yall!

(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/giphy2.gif)

None of it matters since you drank the Orange Koolaid..
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 05, 2019, 11:17:05 PM
    As I said, Schiff Specifically said "WE" when claiming No contact with the Whistleblower.  You are hearing what You want to hear. Yet another sign of Trump Derangement Syndrome. Get Help

Lame line used by right wingers when Benedict Donald is exposed for his crimes. Everybody who has testified has corroborated what the whistleblower has confirmed so the whistleblower doesn't matter since several officials are on record as witness to Benedcit Donald's crimes. You are ignoring it pretending not to hear it. 
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 05, 2019, 11:26:53 PM
    As I said, Schiff Specifically said "WE" when claiming No contact with the Whistleblower.  You are hearing what You want to hear. Yet another sign of Trump Derangement Syndrome. Get Help

"Sport," you're serving us last month's "where's the whistleblower?" and three years old derangement talking points.
Your responses aren't relevant. It is one thing for Trump to robotize Royell and his ilk, quite another for Sondland to save Trump.
.................

Quote
https://www.axios.com/lindsey-graham-gordon-sondland-ukraine-transcript-427b75e1-af3e-47bd-8590-8fb320738f78.html
Zachary Basu1 hour ago, November 5, 2019
Lindsey Graham says he won't read House deposition transcripts

.....Why it matters: In a revision to his Oct. 17 testimony, U.S. Ambassador to the EU Gordon Sondland acknowledged that he told a Ukrainian official that the release of military aid to Ukraine would "likely not occur" unless President Volodymyr Zelensky announced an investigation into a gas company with ties to Joe Biden's son.

Graham, a fierce Trump defender, told reporters on Sept. 25:
https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1176891371334045701
"If you're looking for a circumstance where the president of the United States was threatening the Ukraine with cutting off aid unless they investigated his political opponent, you'd be very disappointed. That does not exist."....
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 05, 2019, 11:32:07 PM
The corrupt Republican Party jammed about three dozen House Democrats’ congressional office phones with  over 1,000 calls in which they were paying to find people who oppose impeachment and to put them through. Pretty desperate and if they were "winning" there would be no need for these pathetic and shady tactics.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 06, 2019, 12:17:20 AM
Peter,

You're extremely "funny" in a wierdo kind of way.

--  MWT   :D

PS  "A whistleblower that was listening to a [sic] phone call?"

Hint:  That was his or her job.

Time Magazine:

U.S. intelligence agencies are authorized to monitor the calls of certain foreign leaders in order to collect intelligence on the “activities and intentions of a foreign power,” the official says. During one of those calls, according to the official, President Trump made “certain representations concerning U.S. policy” during the call that the whistleblower “found troubling.”
A job, not a job where an alleged whistleblower would be. This was made up from outside the situation. You would never hear about this if it was true. These people are not listening for such an " I am offended at what I heard" moment. This was  crafted out of desperation.  You take your chances, they have nothing to lose. Schiff has something in his own past. This is a comedy show.  I have heard the same story from Democrats and not one drop of it will play out as they say. "Trump did it and his days are numbered" That is their story.   Today is November 5 2019 I know they are dreaming and that is normal. The only thing different in the next couple years will be some major officials even a few Republicans will be indicted. I guarantee a handful of Democrats will be indicted. Half of which will be from California including state officials, former members of Congress and even family members
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 06, 2019, 12:32:24 AM
A job, not a job where an alleged whistleblower would be. This was made up from outside the situation. You would never hear about this if it was true. These people are not listening for such an " I am offended at what I heard" moment. This was  crafted out of desperation.  You take your chances, they have nothing to lose. Schiff has something in his own past. This is a comedy show.  I have heard the same story from Democrats and not one drop of it will play out as they say. "Trump did it and his days are numbered" That is their story.   Today is November 5 2019 I know they are dreaming and that is normal. The only thing different in the next couple years will be some major officials even a few Republicans will be indicted. I guarantee a handful of Democrats will be indicted. Half of which will be from California including state officials, former members of Congress and even family members

 :D  :D  :D

More delusion here.

13 witnesses already testified against Benedict Donald and they all confirmed he engaged in Quid pro quo, bribery, and extortion. These are his own people testifying against him. It's all confirmed and the rest of the 20 minute phone call is hidden  in the classified secret server.

Benedict Donald got caught and is guilty. People like you ignore his crimes and make up garbage against Democrats. It's pathetic. Take some responsibility for your orange criminal. He is not above the law.

Also, a New York grand jury is in process of indicting him as well.       
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 06, 2019, 12:42:43 AM
A job, not a job where an alleged whistleblower would be. This was made up from outside the situation. You would never hear about this if it was true. These people are not listening for such an " I am offended at what I heard" moment. This was  crafted out of desperation.  You take your chances, they have nothing to lose. Schiff has something in his own past. This is a comedy show.  I have heard the same story from Democrats and not one drop of it will play out as they say. "Trump did it and his days are numbered" That is their story.   Today is November 5 2019 I know they are dreaming and that is normal. The only thing different in the next couple years will be some major officials even a few Republicans will be indicted. I guarantee a handful of Democrats will be indicted. Half of which will be from California including state officials, former members of Congress and even family members

Yes, they are listening on phone calls for anything out of the ordinary or criminal in nature and they all heard it and testified. Another pathetic attempt to cover for Benedict Donald and create a phony conspiracy theory. This is what right wingers do.   
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on November 06, 2019, 12:50:57 AM
"You can grab them on the pussy"...how many pachyderms will stay grabbed until the climax?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 06, 2019, 12:58:52 AM
     You have been sucked in by the Fake News Media. Schiff's Whistle Blower was NOT listening in on the Trump phone call. The alleged Whistle Blower has NEVER heard the actual phone call.

Is Hannity telling you that?

The released Yovanovitch, McKinley, Volker & Sondland transcripts already confirm the whistleblower's credibility and all prove Benedict Donald engaged in Quid pro quo, bribery, and extortion. That is a crime. There is nothing that you or anybody else can say or do to refute it. The only remedy for this illegal behavior is impeachment, which the Democrats are doing as what the Constitution allows to protect our country against a corrupt "president".  If right wingers feel a corrupt criminal is worth more than the Constitution then that is their prerogative to coddle and protect him. But they will have to face the wrath of the voters and will go down in history as sycophants who protected a criminal and didn't defend the Constitution in which they swore an oath to do. They are failures of the worst kind.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 06, 2019, 01:17:19 AM
Lame line used by right wingers when Benedict Donald is exposed for his crimes. Everybody who has testified has corroborated what the whistleblower has confirmed so the whistleblower doesn't matter since several officials are on record as witness to Benedcit Donald's crimes. You are ignoring it pretending not to hear it.

    Being the Whistleblower did Not hear/1st hand the Trump phone call, he can Not "confirm" anything regarding That Call. Very simple
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 06, 2019, 02:11:49 AM
A job, not a job where an alleged whistleblower would be. This was made up from outside the situation. You would never hear about this if it was true. These people are not listening for such an " I am offended at what I heard" moment. This was  crafted out of desperation.  You take your chances, they have nothing to lose. Schiff has something in his own past. This is a comedy show.  I have heard the same story from Democrats and not one drop of it will play out as they say. "Trump did it and his days are numbered" That is their story.   Today is November 5 2019 I know they are dreaming and that is normal. The only thing different in the next couple years will be some major officials even a few Republicans will be indicted. I guarantee a handful of Democrats will be indicted. Half of which will be from California including state officials, former members of Congress and even family members

Peter,

Yes, yes, yes!

And the Earth is flat, CIA developed AIDs to decimate Blacks, and we've never been to the moon!

And, and, and ... the DNC's and Podesta's hacks were false flag ops done by "fascist" Ukraine to tarnish the reputations of those humanitarian organizations known as the GRU and Wikileaks.

... and, and, and ... Ukraine wanted Trump to get "elected"!

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 06, 2019, 04:25:25 AM
    Being the Whistleblower did Not hear/1st hand the Trump phone call, he can Not "confirm" anything regarding That Call. Very simple

Pure right wing propaganda. 13 witnesses have already confirmed that Benedict Donald is guilty of quid pro quo, bribery, and extortion. Gordon Sondland is Trump guy and even he had to admit he is guilty.     
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 06, 2019, 04:32:50 AM
    Being the Whistleblower did Not hear/1st hand the Trump phone call, he can Not "confirm" anything regarding That Call. Very simple

Terrible election night for Benedict Donald. Lost the Governorship in ruby red Kentucky. Benedict Donald campaigned there yesterday and put himself on and impeachment on the ballot and took a resounding defeat. People came out to vote against him and send him a message which will be even louder in 2020. Also, the Democrats took both the House and the Senate in Virginia. A clean sweep. So, if right wing Senators think they cover for Benedict Donald by not convicting him in the Senate, they will suffer the same fate as Bevin did tonight.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 06, 2019, 03:51:11 PM
Terrible election night for Benedict Donald. Lost the Governorship in ruby red Kentucky. Benedict Donald campaigned there yesterday and put himself on and impeachment on the ballot and took a resounding defeat. People came out to vote against him and send him a message which will be even louder in 2020. Also, the Democrats took both the House and the Senate in Virginia. A clean sweep. So, if right wing Senators think they cover for Benedict Donald by not convicting him in the Senate, they will suffer the same fate as Bevin did tonight.

    Just, "Close your eyes and tap your heels together three times. And think to yourself, there's no place like home". You're going to be alright.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 06, 2019, 07:52:46 PM
    Just, "Close your eyes and tap your heels together three times. And think to yourself, there's no place like home". You're going to be alright.

Royell,

Not with Putin's useful idiot, Donald Trump, as our president, and Mitch "Moscow Mitch" McConnell serving as Senate Majority Leader.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 06, 2019, 09:29:49 PM
Royell,

Not with Putin's useful idiot, Donald Trump, as our president, and Mitch "Moscow Mitch" McConnell serving as Senate Majority Leader.

--  MWT  ;)

    Maybe holding Plant's hand and the 2 of You singing Kumbaya together will comfort both of you?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 06, 2019, 09:46:55 PM
    Maybe holding Plant's hand and the 2 of You singing Kumbaya together will comfort both of you?

While you're singing The Interationale and/or The Horst Wessel Song?

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 06, 2019, 10:38:24 PM
While you're singing The Interationale and/or The Horst Wessel Song?

--  MWT  ;)

    Seriously.  Trump Derangement Syndrome is a legit problem  :'( with some of You. After he gets re-elected, it will be too late. Do yourself a favor and seek help NOW.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 06, 2019, 10:57:55 PM
    Seriously.  Trump Derangement Syndrome is a legit problem  :'( with some of You. After he gets re-elected, it will be too late. Do yourself a favor and seek help NOW.

Vladimir Putin loves you, Royell.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 07, 2019, 02:18:52 AM
I don't like it that the Lizzy Warren opponents [including the Don] call her Pocahontas....it is an absolute insult to Pocahontas.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 07, 2019, 02:25:32 AM
I don't like it that the Lizzy Warren opponents [including the Don] call her Pocahontas....it is an absolute insult to Pocahontas.

Yuk Yuk Yuk

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 07, 2019, 03:20:12 PM
Vladimir Putin loves you, Royell.

--  MWT  ;)

     You hear a knock on your door, better NOT answer it.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 07, 2019, 03:26:00 PM
     You hear a knock on your door, better NOT answer it.

Royell,

Why's that?

---  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Zeon Mason on November 07, 2019, 06:36:28 PM
Royell,

Why's that?

---  MWT  ;)

The CIA and the NSA are listening to BOTH of you  :D
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 07, 2019, 06:41:21 PM
The CIA and the NSA are listening to BOTH of you  :D

Good!

Are Julian Assange and Edward Snowden two of your heroes?

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 07, 2019, 06:42:52 PM
I came across this...

(https://i.ibb.co/TKKjJvD/TULSI.jpg)

Now they [the lame stream media] will accuse Tulsi of being a conspiracy theorist.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 07, 2019, 07:14:45 PM
I came across this...
.....
Now they [the lame stream media] will accuse Tulsi ...

"lame stream"= Wingerspeak

Irrelevant candidate, why the DiEugenio-esque, mention of her?

Quote
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/06/gabbard-klobuchar-qualify-debate-066900
11/06/2019 03:27 PM EST

......
Gabbard made the November stage by getting 3 percent in the new Quinnipiac poll,
Quote
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/202...abbard-n964261

Feb. 2, 2019, 7:03 AM ESTBy Robert Windrem and Ben Popken
The Russian propaganda machine that tried to influence the 2016 U.S. election is now promoting the presidential aspirations of a controversial Hawaii Democrat who earlier this month declared her intention to run for president in 2020.

An NBC News analysis of the main English-language news sites employed by Russia in its 2016 election meddling shows Rep. Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii, who is set to make her formal announcement Saturday, has become a favorite of the sites Moscow used when it interfered in 2016.

Several experts who track websites and social media linked to the Kremlin have also seen what they believe may be the first stirrings of an upcoming Russian campaign of support for Gabbard....

....In a post-debate analysis, Maureen Linke and Eliza Collins at the Wall Street Journal found that hundreds of social media accounts with “bot-like traits” promoted information and content that sought to inflame racial divisions during the debates. They found that certain hashtags originated with conservative activists, but then it seemed like bots were helping to spread them.For example, on Tuesday, a user named Susannah Faulkner first shared the hashtag #DemDebateSoWhite, and then Ali Alexander, a Republican operative who sparked a racist birther-like campaign about Harris during the first round of debates, retweeted it. And on Wednesday, conservative commentator Terrence K. Williams started the #KamalaHarrisDestroyed hashtag after Harris’s onstage exchange with Gabbard.
In both instances, the Journal, citing data from analytics company Storyful, found that a high number of the accounts that interacted with and spread the tweets and hashtags had “bot-like characteristics.”...
May 19, 2019: Rep. Gabbard defends herself using a phrase made familiar by......despite having fifteen weeks to compose a defense without that phrase. :
Quote
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/week-transcript-19-19-rep-tulsi-gabbard-john/story?id=63130784
'This Week' Transcript 5-19-19: Rep. Tulsi Gabbard, John Hickenlooper, Rep. Seth Moulton and Gen. David Petraeus

ByABC NEWS May 19, 2019, 9:53 AM ET

....GABBARD: You know, it’s unfortunate that you’re citing that article, George, because it’s a whole lot of fake news. What I am focused on is what is in the best interest of the American people, what is in the best interest of our national security, keeping the American people safe.....
Quote
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/20/politics/tulsi-gabbard-fake-news-russia/index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/20/polit...sia/index.html
Updated 12:09 PM ET, Mon May 20, 2019
Tulsi Gabbard invokes Trump's 'fake news' rhetoric to push back on report of Russia-linked support
By Devan Cole, CNN.....
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 15, 2019, 02:33:27 AM
Yes, they are listening on phone calls for anything out of the ordinary or criminal in nature and they all heard it and testified. Another pathetic attempt to cover for Benedict Donald and create a phony conspiracy theory. This is what right wingers do.
Liberal nuts investigate a case backward. It is why they confuse themselves and are left with the same as when they started, nothing.

For example, Rick is unable to get past proving anything important. It seems he is so beside himself he chooses to give up on showing the goods and instead turn to the irrelevant description "another pathetic attempt to cover for".

Hey Rick, try again, get past proving whatever it is you are trying to prove before you take on a whole other area.

Liberals always get ahead of themselves, get too excited, become frustrated and blame everyone who has nothing to do with their all-in headfirst actions.


One thing at a time Rick
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 15, 2019, 02:55:12 AM
The CIA and the NSA are listening to BOTH of you  :D

    Brennan, Clapper, & Comey will soon be indicted. The Durham/Barr Investigation is going to drop the Hammer on these dangerous charlatans.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 15, 2019, 03:16:10 AM
Irrelevant candidate, why the DiEugenio-esque, mention of her?
Do what now?
 Tulsi was the only one up on the stage that has a semblance of a brain :-\
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on November 15, 2019, 06:08:22 AM
Do what now?
 Tulsi was the only one up on the stage that has a semblance of a brain :-\

Tulsi's brain was co-opted by her guru Chris Butler many years ago (think Manchurian (read: Hawaiian) Candidate.

Ever seen the VERY long thread about Butler at Rick Ross' culteducation.com website?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 15, 2019, 06:59:04 AM
Tulsi's brain was co-opted by her guru Chris Butler many years ago (think Manchurian (read: Hawaiian) Candidate.

Ever seen the VERY long thread about Butler at Rick Ross' culteducation.com website?

Do what now?
 Tulsi was the only one up on the stage that has a semblance of a brain :-\

You are embarrassing yourself. No grifter left behind. Have you done no independent research. The "candidate" was an abused child, (Tulsi's parents "gave" themselves and their children over to Chris Butler) both of her spouses come from the same cult of approximately one thousand lost individuals, under the dominion of former surfer dude, Chris Butler. Elect candidate Gabbard and you are voting for yet another Putin puppet, of a family devoted to Chris Butler.

More anti-muslim, insular, crony-nepotism, laced with Putin-Trump, "fake news" deflection.....

Quote
https://www.vogue.com/article/making-a-splash-is-tulsi-gabbard-the-next-democratic-party-star
Making a Splash: Is Tulsi Gabbard the Next Democratic Party Star?
“I grew up with the Aloha Spirit,” says Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard. “We try to treat everyone with respect. Like family.”
BY JOHN POWERS
June 25, 2013
...She was also happily married—to her childhood sweetheart Eduardo Tamayo. “You know,” she says wryly, “young love. We surfed together and were best friends. His family was like my family.” ....
Quote
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tulsi-gabbard-krishna-cult-rumors_n_6879588
POLITICS 03/16/2015 02:26 pm ET Updated Dec 06, 2017
Tulsi Gabbard Still Dogged By Krishna Cult Rumors
Rui Kaneya Honolulu Civil Beat

...During the past few weeks, speculation about her place in that world has intensified, thanks in no small part to two recent developments in her life, one personal and one professional: her upcoming marriage to Abraham Williams and the appointment of Kainoa Ramananda Penaroza as her top advisor.

Both men grew up in the same offbeat religious world as Gabbard. Many of the people who still talk about and obsess over the Gabbard family’s ties to Butler try to also paint both Williams and Penaroza as devotees of the guru.....
Quote
Who Is Tulsi Gabbard's Husband? Abraham Williams ...
https://www.newsweek.com/tulsi-gabbard-abraham-williams-husband-1465407
Oct 15, 2019 - Abraham Williams Volunteered For Wife's Political Campaign and .... His mother, Anya Anthony, manages Gabbard's district office in Honolulu.
Quote
https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/09/why-is-tulsi-gabbard-paying-this-obscure-consultant-big-bucks/
Politics
Why Is Tulsi Gabbard Paying This Obscure Consultant Big Bucks?
58
Kris Robinson grew up in the same controversial religious sect as Gabbard. Now, he’s one of the top-paid vendors on her 2020 presidential campaign.

By Nick Grube    / September 9, 2019
 Reading time: 13 minutes.
   
STEHEKIN, Wash. — Deep in the Washington state wilderness, a highly paid political consultant is raking in hundreds of thousands of dollars from U.S. Rep. Tulsi Gabbard’s presidential campaign.

It’s the kind of money usually spent on national name-brand political operatives with bustling offices and large staffs based in Washington, D.C., or New York....

....There are no roads to Stehekin. One of the few options to get into the valley include horseback.

Cell phone service is non-existent and there are no roads in. Visitors travel mostly via ferry, which each day makes a run up Lake Chelan, a 55-mile journey that can take up to four hours. Other options include horse, foot and floatplane.

As one summer hand at the local lodge said, “It’s kind of like ‘The Shining’ here in the winter. Lots of snow. Not many people.”

Yet in the first six months of 2019, federal campaign finance records show Gabbard paid Robinson and his company more than $259,000.

Quote
http://www.honolulumagazine.com/Honolulu-Magazine/August-2004/Who-is-Mike-Gabbard/
 Who is Mike Gabbard?
IT'S HARD NOT TO LIKE MIKE GABBARD, ONCE YOU MEET THE GUY. IN JUNE, THE CITY COUNCILMAN HOSTED A TALK-STORY MEETING AT THE WAI'ANAE PUBLIC LIBRARY. THESE GET-TOGETHERS HAVE BEEN MONTHLY RITUALS FOR GABBARD SINCE HE WAS ELECTED TO REPRESENT THE WAI'ANAE-TO-'EWA DISTRICT IN 2002.
BY RONNA BOLANTE  PUBLISHED: 2004.08.01

.....But Gabbard had strong ties to an obscure Hare Krishna splinter group that, in the late 1970s, fielded several political candidates. The splinter group was founded by a Hawai‘i homegrown guru named Chris Butler. Butler was a disciple of A.C. Bahkitevedanta Swami Prabhupad, who founded the International Society of Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON). ISKCON is the high-visibility sect whose orange robes, shaved heads, public begging and chanting are what most people think of when they hear the term Hare Krishna.

Butler eventually broke away from ISKCON, criticizing the regimen and centralization of ISKCON life. He formed his own organization, which has had several names: Hare Name Society, Identity Institute and the Science of Identity Foundation. What started as a small religious sect on Maui in the 1970s developed a following that, according to some estimates, includes tens of thousands of people all over the world.

Butler’s followers chant, practice vegetarianism and Bhakti yoga and must refrain from intoxicants and “illicit sex,” or all sexual contact except between married couples at the most fertile time of the month. Unlike ISKCON members who beg publicly, Butler’s “other Krishnas” tend to support themselves by creating their own businesses.

Many of Butler’s associates made headlines in the 1976 election when they created a party called Independents for Godly Government. As its name implied, the group insisted on rigorous moral standards for its candidates. They could accept only half their allowed salaries and distribute the other half to the people they represented, accept no gifts from special interests, commit no crimes and abstain from intoxication and illicit sex. The party fielded several serious contenders for office, including Kathy Hoshijo, who took 17 percent of the votes in the race for Congress, and Wayne Nishiki, the current Maui councilman, who won 20 percent in a three-man race for mayor.

The party’s links to Butler and Krishna went unacknowledged until 1977, when Walter Wright of The Honolulu Advertiser did an investigative report on the group, which Hoshijo labeled a “smear attempt.”

In the ‘80s and ‘90s, Butler appeared in a series of locally filmed shows, titled Jagad Guru Speaks, in which he sermonized on spirituality. In one episode, titled “Is God Really Loveable?” Butler mocks the Bible and the Christian interpretation of God, calling them nonsensical. “These Christians don’t know God,” Butler says. His comments summon laughs and nods of agreement from the room full of listeners. Mike and Carol Gabbard are shown sitting just a few feet away from the charismatic guru, laughing along with the audience.
 
Gabbard’s wife served as secretary/treasurer of the Science of Identity Foundation until 2000, before she successfully ran for a seat on the state Board of Education. Both Gabbard and his wife were listed as teachers at the Science of Identity Foundation in Polk’s City Directory in the early 1990s.

In the late ‘80s and early ‘90s, both Gabbards worked as staffers in the office of then Maui state Sen. Rick Reed. A controversial figure himself, Reed has acknowledged Butler as his “spiritual adviser.” Reed mounted short-lived campaigns for both Congress and the lieutenant governorship in 1986. He then ran for U.S. Senate against Daniel Inouye in 1992, setting off a scandal when he publicized claims that Inouye had sexually molested a Honolulu hairdresser named Lenore Kwock.

All five of Gabbard’s children have Hindu names: Bhakti, Jai, Aryan, Tulsi and Vrindavan (Hinduism is the root of the Hare Krishna religion). The Gabbards’ Natural Deli was housed in Down to Earth, which was then owned and managed by Butler followers.

No one questions Gabbard’s right to believe as he chooses. Some may even applaud him for his religious beliefs. However, some voters may worry about his former ties to a Krishna sect. Especially when members and associates of that group have mounted repeated attempts at high public office.

When HONOLULU asked Gabbard in an e-mail to clarify his former relationship with Butler’s Krishna group, Gabbard’s daughter, state Rep. Tulsi Gabbard Tamayo, sent us an angry e-mail in response. “I smell a skunk,” Tamayo wrote. “It’s clear to me that you’re acting as a conduit for The Honolulu Weekly and other homosexual extremist supporters of Ed Case.”....

https://www.newspapers.com/image/?clipping_id=10947192... (https://www.newspapers.com/image/?clipping_id=10947192&fcfToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJmcmVlLXZpZXctaWQiOjI3NjE2OTk5NSwiaWF0IjoxNTczODA2MDI5LCJleHAiOjE1NzM4OTI0Mjl9.SUBRVheu_HYNysX8KNUGM0cfqNMEZrzSmwbI17iwktI)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TtumpGabbardButler1982.jpg)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 15, 2019, 08:13:42 PM
    Seriously.  Trump Derangement Syndrome is a legit problem  :'( with some of You. After he gets re-elected, it will be too late. Do yourself a favor and seek help NOW.

Re-elected :D

Benedict Donald was never elected to begin with. He is being impeached for bribery and extortion.  His criminal pal Roger Stone was convicted today on all 7 counts proving there was Russian collusion since Wikileaks is Russian Intelligence.

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 15, 2019, 08:14:45 PM
    Maybe holding Plant's hand and the 2 of You singing Kumbaya together will comfort both of you?

That's what you right wingers are doing as Benedict Donald's crimes are being exposed in real time.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 15, 2019, 08:16:57 PM
    Brennan, Clapper, & Comey will soon be indicted. The Durham/Barr Investigation is going to drop the Hammer on these dangerous charlatans.

:D

Another right wing conspiracy dream. The only one who's going to be indicted is Benedict Donald as a New York State grand jury will bring charges against him when he's out of office.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 15, 2019, 08:24:01 PM
    Just, "Close your eyes and tap your heels together three times. And think to yourself, there's no place like home". You're going to be alright.

That's what you and your right wing friends have been doing. Living in fantasy land pretending Benedict Donald is a saint and "everybody is out to get him". Benedict Donald is a con man career criminal who is being impeached for his crimes. His long time criminal pal Roger Stone was found guilty on all 7 counts.

Roger Stone has been convicted for several crimes he committed while helping Benedict Donald conspire with Russia to rig the 2016 presidential election, even as Benedict Donald is being impeached for trying to conspire with Ukraine to rig the 2020 presidential election. Stone has also been convicted for threatening a witness against him, even as Trump publicly threatened an impeachment witness today.  Wikileaks is Russian Intelligence so we now have a criminal convicted for collusion with Russia.

Also, more witnesses will be speaking on Benedict Donald's extortion phone call. If you can't win the Governorship of ruby red Kentucky in a off season election, you certainly aren't going to win a swing state when you have less favorability.     
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 15, 2019, 09:47:56 PM
You are embarrassing yourself.
& you get an F on that. You must be a Warren supporter...Sanders?...Harris...? 
:D  When I want your opinion again ---I'll let you know OK?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 15, 2019, 09:53:14 PM
Benedict Donald was never elected to begin with. 
Wow! Who washed out that head ???
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 15, 2019, 09:56:41 PM
& you get an F on that. You must be a Warren supporter...Sanders?...Harris...? 
:D  When I want your opinion again ---I'll let you know OK?

You are posting remarkably similarly about candidate Gabbard as Jim DiEugenio is posting. I am not addressing either of you and I am not limited by your decision to permit me, or not, from replying to your poorly informed forum posts.

My intent was to present proof to forum readers you are either poorly informed about candidate Gabbard's cultist insularity or your intentional disregard for the future prospects of US Constitutional government. I would not hire Tulsi Gabbard to do anything I cared about, let alone advocating for her to be Chris Butler's puppet POTUS. In a nation of 340 million, Gabbard has drawn twice from the small cult captivating her family, for both her spouses, her congressional district office manager,  (mother of her second spouse) campaign strategist (paid $259,000 by her campaign). I simply want more diversity from a POTUS replacing Trump than I anticipate a homophobic Islamophobe such as Gabbard and her influence sphere of fellow Chris Butler cultists will be able to provide our country.

Re-elected :D

Benedict Donald was never elected to begin with. He is being impeached for bribery and extortion.  His criminal pal Roger Stone was convicted today on all 7 counts proving there was Russian collusion since Wikileaks is Russian Intelligence.

Quote
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/11/donald-trump-and-the-roger-stone-trial
“The Truth Looked Bad for Donald Trump”: The Roger Stone ...
https://www.vanityfair.com › news › 2019/11 › donald-trump-and-the-rog...
7 days ago - “The Truth Looked Bad for Donald Trump”: The Roger Stone Trial Is ... he toiled in the dozens-deep security line, looking like an expectant VIP ...
They argued that Stone’s decision to obfuscate his purported contacts with WikiLeaks and its founder,Julian Assange, to Congress was done to benefit Trump. “The evidence in this case will show that Roger Stone lied to the House Intelligence Committee because the truth looked bad for the Trump campaign and the truth looked bad for Donald Trump,” Aaron Zelinsky, an assistant U.S. attorney and veteran of the Mueller probe, declared in court Wednesday...

Quote
https://twitter.com/BretBaier/status/1195364536326541313?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1195364536326541313&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheweek.com%2Fspeedreads%2F878725%2Ffox-news-bret-baier-suggests-trump-just-broke-law-real-time-tweeted-attacks-yovanovitch (https://twitter.com/BretBaier/status/1195364536326541313?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1195364536326541313&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheweek.com%2Fspeedreads%2F878725%2Ffox-news-bret-baier-suggests-trump-just-broke-law-real-time-tweeted-attacks-yovanovitch)

Bret Baier
@BretBaier
That was a turning point in this hearing so far.  She was already a sympathetic witness & the President’s tweet ripping her allowed Schiff to point it out real time characterizing it as witness tampering or intimidation -adding an article of impeachment real-time.

Quote
https://theweek.com/speedreads/878725/fox-news-bret-baier-suggests-trump-just-broke-law-real-time-tweeted-attacks-yovanovitch
Ousted U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch had barely been in the Capitol for an hour when President Trump "committed a crime while we're watching," journalist Marcy Wheeler tweeted Friday. (https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/1195363380154032129?s=20) That's because as Yovanovitch gave her public impeachment testimony, Trump attacked her in a tweet — something Wheeler is joining The New York Times' Michael Schmidt and Fox News' Bret Baier in suggesting amounts to witness tampering.

Republicans' first aim in Friday's impeachment hearing was to avoid attacking Yovanovitch so she didn't earn any more sympathy points from viewers. But Trump destroyed that strategy with one fell tweet, claiming "everywhere Marie Yovanovitch went turned bad," naming her work in Somalia and then Ukraine as examples. House Intelligence Chair Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) had Yovanovitch address the tweet, or "witness intimidation," as he called it, and Yovanovitch agreed it was "very intimidating."
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 15, 2019, 10:09:12 PM
Re-elected :D

Benedict Donald was never elected to begin with. He is being impeached for bribery and extortion.  His criminal pal Roger Stone was convicted today on all 7 counts proving there was Russian collusion since Wikileaks is Russian Intelligence.

    Stone was Not convicted of Bribery, Extortion, or Collusion. Facts are Facts. Widen the sources you are using to gather Information. You are currently being fed straight-up  BS:
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 15, 2019, 10:22:03 PM
    Stone was Not convicted of Bribery, Extortion, or Collusion. Facts are Facts. Widen the sources you are using to gather Information. You are currently being fed straight-up  BS:
Widen the sources? Here is the official White House propaganda outlet reporting, is this "wide" enough, for you?
BTW, is the weather in your bubble any warmer than the damp cold the rest of us have been experiencing, "out here"?
Quote
Roger Stone found guilty on all counts (seven) in trial ... - Fox News
https://www.foxnews.com › politics › roger-stone-found-guilty-in-trial-stem... (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/roger-stone-found-guilty-in-trial-stemming-from-mueller-probe)
Trump confidant and GOP operative Roger Stone was found guilty on all seven counts of obstruction, witness tampering and making false statements to Congress in Washington, D.C., federal court on Friday, after a weeklong trial on charges that stemmed from former Special Counsel ...
Trump confidant and GOP operative Roger Stone was found guilty on all seven counts of obstruction, witness tampering and making false statements to Congress in Washington, D.C., federal court on Friday, after a weeklong trial on charges that stemmed from former Special Counsel ...

We do not know the entirety of what Trump, Manafort, and Stone did, because they have prevented us from knowing:
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_tampering
To be charged with witness tampering in the United States, the attempt to alter or prevent testimony is sufficient. There is no requirement that the intended obstruction of justice be completed.
Witness tampering - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Witness_tampering
Quote
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/legal-ethics/paul-manafort-disbarred-by-d-c-top-court-for-witness-tampering
Paul Manafort Disbarred by D.C. Top Court for Witness Tampering
May 9, 2019, 1:10 PM

Paul Manafort Jr. can’t practice law in the District of Columbia because he was convicted of a crime of moral turpitude, the District of Columbia Court of Appeals ruled May 9.

Manafort pleaded guilty to conspiring to obstruct justice “by tampering with witnesses while on pre-trial release,” the District’s high court said.

The particular statute he violated, 18 U.S.C. § 1512(b)(1), is like other subsections on evidence and witness tampering that the court has found to be crimes of moral turpitude, it said.

“Because respondent has been convicted of a crime of moral turpitude, the mandatory sanction imposed by statute is to disbar him from the practice of law,” the court said.

The former chairman of President Trump’s campaign admitted to conspiring against the U.S. by laundering money, cheating the U.S. out of taxes, failing to file foreign bank account reports, violating the Foreign Agents Registration Act, and lying to the Justice Department. He also admitted that he conspired to obstruct justice by tampering with witnesses in the criminal case against him in federal court in Washington....

Stone was convicted of witness tampering, lying to the House Intel committee in 2018 to protect Trump from the Mueller and the House Intel committee investigation, seven counts in total, all counts he was tried for. He joins Trump campaign luminaries Mike Flynn, Paul Manafort, and Rick Gates as convicted of federal crimes. Trump certainly knows how to pick 'em, in between playing the part of deep state victim, witness-intimidater-in-chief, on tee vee. Lying to congress and witness tampering certainly are crimes of obstruction of justice.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 15, 2019, 10:29:43 PM
We do not know the entirety of what Trump, Manafort, and Stone did, because they have prevented us from knowing:
Stone was convicted of witness tampering, lying to the House Intel committee in 2018 to protect Trump from the Mueller and the House Intel committee investigation, seven counts in total, all counts he was tried for. He joins Trump campaign luminaries Mike Flynn, Paul Manafort, and Rick Gates as convicted of federal crimes. Trumo certainly knows how to pick 'em, in between playing the part of deep state victim, witness-intimidater-in-chief, on tee vee. Lying to congress and witness tampering certainly are crimes of obstruction of justice.

   Glad you brought up "lying to Congress". On deck are Comey, Brennan, & Clapper. Stay tuned..........
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 15, 2019, 10:30:48 PM
    Stone was Not convicted of Bribery, Extortion, or Collusion. Facts are Facts. Widen the sources you are using to gather Information. You are currently being fed straight-up  BS:
Nah ....These are haters [Antifa types]--- They don't want to hear about this quid pro quo crap. Just call it bribery and throw in some obstruction of justice while you're at it [it sounds much more accusational]

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 15, 2019, 11:47:46 PM
Nah ....These are haters [Antifa types]--- They don't want to hear about this quid pro quo crap. Just call it bribery and throw in some obstruction of justice while you're at it [it sounds much more accusational]

Any of you Forever Trumpers care to guess why Private Bone Spurs gave Syria away to Erdoğan? He practically kissed his ass after handing him the keys. Trump has only kissed 1 other person's ass, and we all know whose. So what do both strongmen have in common? They both have kompromat on your dear leader.

Who blew the whistle on the Saudis for murdering Khashoggi in the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul? Erdoğan. What dirt could he have on Trump re the Khashoggi murder to cause him to cough up Syria, sell out the Kurds and become Erdoğan's bitch?

Hint: JK❤️MBS

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 15, 2019, 11:49:16 PM
Re-elected :D

Benedict Donald was never elected to begin with. He is being impeached for bribery and extortion.  His criminal pal Roger Stone was convicted today on all 7 counts proving there was Russian collusion since Wikileaks is Russian Intelligence.
Ok, we get that you don't like Trump. Fair enough.
What raised you? Behind all of your heavily repeated talking points, you stand to defend the worst line-up of Democrat candidates ever assembled. You must be so proud of them. Are there men that will vote for any of the Sesame Street characters? You are a man, right? Or just not a very bright one? You sound like a woman. Just my opinion. You freaks are so so wishy-washy. You change your mind, just like a woman. You love Wikileaks you hate Wikileaks. A whistleblower has 15 different meanings to an unstable liberal nutjob like yourself. I'm sure you agree
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 16, 2019, 12:23:08 AM
Any of you Forever Trumpers ....
JT---I don't know about 'forever'. I think Trump is a schmoe. What is the alternative? Name a name :-\
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 16, 2019, 12:28:34 AM
Trump (a now neutered, (but still more ominous owing to the offensive resources still under his command) caricature of Putin or Erdogan) and his Trump party are a dumpster fire. Stop taking his bait and cough the smoke up and out of your lungs.

   Glad you brought up "lying to Congress". On deck are Comey, Brennan, & Clapper. Stay tuned..........
Again, sourced from inside your own bubble....(Washington Times)
Quote
Justice Department hints it may not prosecute Andrew McCabe...
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/nov/13/justice-department-hints-it-may-not-prosecute-andr/
2 days ago - The Justice Department hinted in a court filing Wednesday that it likely won’t prosecute Andrew McCabe, saying it will no longer shield documents about the former FBI deputy director from public release. ... The filing came as the Justice Department approached a deadline set by a ...
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/peanuts/images/a/a0/1107charlie_brown_lucy_football.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/200?cb=20100523172400)

Quote
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/unusual-restrictions-spook-witnesses-in-doj-inspector-general-investigation-into-alleged-fisa-abuses
'Unusual restrictions' spook witnesses in DOJ inspector general investigation into alleged FISA abuses
by Daniel Chaitin
 | November 14, 2019 07:12 PM
.....
Quote
https://www.newsmax.com/politics/inspector-general-report-fbi-feedback/2019/11/15/id/941870/
Newsmax
Justice Dept. IG: Witnesses Can Give Written Feedback on ...
The Justice Department inspector general's office now says it will allow witnesses, who are set to review draft sections of its report on the initial ...
7 hours ago

https://www.govexec.com/oversight/2019/11/trumps-anger-ig-over-impeachment-role-highlights-high-watchdog-vacancy-rate/161310/
GovExec.com
President Trump reportedly (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/12/us/politics/trump-michael-atkinson-inspector-general.html) has considered firing Intelligence Community Inspector General Michael Atkinson for Atkinson’s role in sharing the whistleblower complaint with lawmakers, an act that ultimately sparked the impeachment hearings. “He has said he believes Mr. Atkinson, whom he appointed in 2017, has been disloyal,” the New York Times reported earlier this week. Such a move would be highly controversial and it would add yet another vacancy to a long list of unfilled IG positions across government. 
Out of the 74 offices required by law to have inspectors general, ... at New York University who has written widely on inspectors general.
7 hours ago


Trump volk post no supporting links because ......

Ok, we get that you don't like Trump. Fair enough.
What raised you? Behind all of your heavily repeated talking points, you stand to defend the worst line-up of Democrat candidates ever assembled. You must be so proud of them. Are there men that will vote for any of the Sesame Street characters? You are a man, right? Or just not a very bright one? You sound like a woman. Just my opinion. You freaks are so so wishy-washy. You change your mind, just like a woman. You love Wikileaks you hate Wikileaks. A whistleblower has 15 different meanings to an unstable liberal nutjob like yourself. I'm sure you agree

The majority of U.S. voters are uninterested in living in a thug-ocracy. All of your and Royell's spew is driven by the premise that "deep state" actors are victimizing noble Trump. Thus, Trump manipulates you into immunizing him from any accusation.
All of that is a Trump con, a manipulation routed from Trump to Hannity, fed to John Solomon, Sara Carter, and Daily Caller's Chuck Ross.

Trump personally staged a "pardon tantrum," this afternoon. He is trying to manipulate senior citizens Manafort and Stone into thinking he will pardon them, next. He cannot pardon them because they have no fifth amendment protections related to the crimes he excuses them of, post pardon. Bush commuted the sentence of Scooter Libby because a pardon would have left Cheney exposed to potential, unprotected Libby testimony in the future.

Trump has so far watched Manafort spending precious remaining years in federal prison because it would "look bad," if he commuted Manafort's sentence before the 2020 election, so this "show" is put on, just hours ago.:
Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/11/15/trump-issues-pardons-war-crimes-cases-despite-pentagon-opposition-move/

By  Dan Lamothe
November 15, 2019 at 6:31 p.m. EST
President Trump intervened in three military justice cases involving war-crimes accusations Friday, issuing at least two pardons that will prevent the Pentagon from pursuing future charges against the individuals involved, according to one of their lawyers and a U.S. official.

The service members involved were notified by Trump over the phone, said the U.S. official, speaking on the condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the issue. Army Maj. Mathew L. Golsteyn, who faced a murder trial scheduled to begin next year, took the phone call and was informed he would receive a full pardon, said his lawyer, Phillip Stackhouse.

The calls were made at the tail end of a day dominated by impeachment hearings against Trump, and after days of efforts by some senior Pentagon officials to change his mind, according to three U.S. officials. The officials, who also spoke on the condition of anonymity, said that some commanders have raised concerns that Trump’s move will undermine the military justice system.....

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 16, 2019, 12:33:03 AM
JT---I don't know about 'forever'. I think Trump is a schmoe. What is the alternative? Name a name :-\

A sack of doorknobs would be better. At least it wouldn't make the US a laughing stock to the rest of the world. Even Hillary Rodham Clinton would be better.  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 16, 2019, 12:52:08 AM
A sack of doorknobs would be better. At least it wouldn't make the US a laughing stock to the rest of the world. Even Hillary Rodham Clinton would be better.  ;)

Why bother to include the "even" qualifier?
Quote
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/oct/07/context-what-kevin-mccarthy-said-about-hillary-cli/
In Context: What Kevin McCarthy said about Hillary Clinton and Benghazi
By Angie Drobnic Holan on Wednesday, October 7th, 2015 at 10:54 a.m.
....McCarthy: "I knew you'd want to ask it. What you're going to see is a conservative speaker that takes a conservative Congress that puts a strategy (in place) to fight and win.

"And let me give you one example. Everybody thought Hillary Clinton was unbeatable, right? But we put together a Benghazi special committee, a select committee. What are her numbers today? Her numbers are dropping. Why? Because she's un-trustable. But no one would have known any of that had happened had we not fought and made that happen."...

(http://jfkforum.com/images/Hillary1970.jpg)

Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/11/12/leaked-stephen-miller-emails-suggest-trumps-point-man-immigration-promoted-white-nationalism/
Leaked Stephen Miller emails show Trump’s point man on immigration promoted white nationalism, SPLC reports

2 days ago - White House press secretary Stephanie Grisham said via email Tuesday that she had not seen the report but called the SPLC “an ...
(http://jfkforum.com/images/Trump1973.jpg)

Quote
Rough Transcript of Trump's First Phone Call With Ukrainian ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/15/us/politics/trump-phone-call-transcript.html
10 hours ago - The White House's release of a memo about the call does not mention “corruption,” which appeared in an earlier description of the conversation. ...
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 16, 2019, 12:54:15 AM
Any of you Forever Trumpers care to guess why Private Bone Spurs gave Syria away to Erdoğan? He practically kissed his ass after handing him the keys. Trump has only kissed 1 other person's ass, and we all know whose. So what do both strongmen have in common? They both have kompromat on your dear leader.

Who blew the whistle on the Saudis for murdering Khashoggi in the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul? Erdoğan. What dirt could he have on Trump re the Khashoggi murder to cause him to cough up Syria, sell out the Kurds and become Erdoğan's bitch?

Hint: JK❤️MBS

      Trump did in Syria exactly what he promised to do in the 2016 campaign. As far as Khashoggi goes, he was Not a U.S. Citizen. U.S. Citizens being killed and going Missing in Mexico have the priority.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 16, 2019, 12:56:26 AM
A sack of doorknobs would be better. At least it wouldn't make the US a laughing stock to the rest of the world. Even Hillary Rodham Clinton would be better.  ;)

    The "sack of doorknobs" has already been elected. He goes by the name of Adam Schiff.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 16, 2019, 01:00:41 AM
Stone was convicted of witness tampering, lying to the House Intel committee in 2018..
Lying to the liars ::)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 16, 2019, 01:01:01 AM
“I’ve earned my spurs on the battlefield…and Donald Trump earned his spurs in a letter from a doctor”--- James Mattis
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 16, 2019, 01:03:41 AM
      Trump did in Syria exactly what he promised to do in the 2016 campaign. As far as Khashoggi goes, he was Not a U.S. Citizen. U.S. Citizens being killed and going Missing in Mexico have the priority.

Quote
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-president-erdogan-turkey-joint-press-conference/
Remarks by President Trump and President Erdoğan of Turkey in Joint Press Conference
 FOREIGN POLICY
  Issued on: November 13, 2019
.....PRESIDENT TRUMP:  ... And a lot of these people would go all throughout Europe.  I mean, it would be a — a devastating situation for Europe, because he’s got 4 million people.  He (Erdogan) has a lot of Kurds, too, that they’re helping and taking care of...
....
.......PRESIDENT TRUMP:  Right.

Q    What is your (inaudible) policy on the Kurds right now?

And as a question for President Erdoğan: Why you are not able to form negotiation with the Kurds in Syria, as Iraqi Kurdistan?  Do you think they will be your friends in future?  Thank you very much.  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

PRESIDENT TRUMP:  Well, thank you very much.  And I will say that we’ve had a great relationship with the Kurds.  And we fought with them very successfully against ISIS.  We fought together. ....
.....
.......But we have a great relationship with the Kurds — we have had.  We’re with them now; we get along with them.

And, by the way, I think the President, he may have some
factions within the Kurds, but I think the President has a great relationship with the Kurds.  Many Kurds live currently in Turkey.  And they’re happy and they’re taken care of, including healthcare — we were talking about it before — including healthcare and education and other things.  So that’s really a misnomer.  But our relationship with the Kurds has been a very good one.  Okay?  Thank you.
Quote
news.google.com/... (https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNSRHP-l5yL-Fdhuy9100iFmMIa49Q%3A1573866827077&source=hp&ei=S03PXb25Aa2RggedtYmIAQ&q=kurdish+activist+34+beaten+shot&oq=kurdish+activist+34+beaten+shot&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1043.16733..17324...2.0..0.286.3537.21j11j1....2..0....1..gws-wiz.......35i39j0i67j0j0i20i263j0i131i67j33i160j33i299.wnfxaL5VFHc&ved=0ahUKEwj9ipjpxu3lAhWtiOAKHZ1aAhEQ4dUDCAc&uact=5)
Kurdish politician among nine civilians shot dead by pro-Turkey forces in Syria
https://www.theguardian.com › world › oct › female-kurdish-politician-am...
Oct 13, 2019 - Syrian Observatory for Human Rights says they were summarily executed after being taken from their cars. Martin Chulov and Mohammed ...
Missing: 34 ‎| ‎Must include: ‎34
Kurdish politician and 10 others killed by 'Turkish-backed ...
https://www.cnn.com › middleeast › syria-turkey-kurdish-politician-intl
Oct 13, 2019 - NYT: Turkish-backed militia fighters appear to shoot Kurdish prisoners ... Elderly man dies after being hit by brick in Hong Kong ...

Turkish-Backed Rebel Group Executes Kurdish Prisoners ...
https://www.nytimes.com › middleeast › turkey-syria-kurdish-execution
Oct 12, 2019 - A video shows a Turkish-backed rebel group executing Kurdish prisoners Saturday in northeastern Syria. ... Activists Fighting Sexual Violence Receive Nobel Prize ... The Dispatch 5:34 ... Kurdish Death Toll Rises as Turkish Forces Hit Syria ... Hong Kong Police Shot a Protester at Point-Blank Range.

Congrats, you've confirmed you are a deplorable, IOW, a fool. You regurgitate Trump spew, nearly word for word.
Kashoggi was a legal resident of the U.S., working for the newspaper of record of this nation's capitol. He was murdererd and cut up in small pieces in a Saudi sovereign compound as a direct reaction to his REPORTING of MILD CRITICISM of the Saudi government, the Saudi royal family.
Quote
Our murdered friend Jamal Khashoggi has been proved right ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/09/30/one-year-later-our-murdered-friend-jamal-has-been-proved-right/?arc404=true
Sep 30, 2019 - The story of Khashoggi and Mohammed bin Salman is not over. ... (Brian Stauffer for The Washington Post) ... In one sense, he succeeded: Khashoggi's trenchant columns no longer appear in The Post, while the crown prince ...
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 16, 2019, 01:07:04 AM
Congrats, you've confirmed you are a deplorable, IOW, a fool. You regurgitate Trump spew, nearly word for word.
Kashoggi was a legal resident of the U.S., working for the newspaper of record of this nation's capitol. He was murdererd and cut up in small pieces in a Saudi sovereign compound as a direct reaction to his REPORTING of MILD CRITICISM of the Saudi government, the Saudi royal family.

    Being You are an avid researcher, thank you for confirming everything I posted.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 16, 2019, 01:33:19 AM
      Trump did in Syria exactly what he promised to do in the 2016 campaign. As far as Khashoggi goes, he was Not a U.S. Citizen. U.S. Citizens being killed and going Missing in Mexico have the priority.

 You've got it bad my friend. Do you actually think that Trumputin gives 2 shits about you or the country? He lost all sense of reality/morality when he became a drug addict. How many crimes does he have to commit, how many women does he have to rape, how many Russians does he have to collude with, how many times does he have to lie to you before you stop believing what he says? You probably don't even think he lies at all, do you? You think it's all Fake News and if what the dear leader says isn't the honest to god truth, then it should be! Is Fox News the only fake news you watch? Is Hannity also your god? Sad.  :(

PS. Jarad Kushner gave Mohammed bin Salman the go-ahead to apprehend Khashoggi at the Consulate. IOW, JK told MBS that the US would not retaliate even though the US has legal and moral obligations to Khashoggi, a US resident with three US citizen children. You truly are a deplorable for suggesting that Khashoggi's life was expendable because he was not a US citizen.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 16, 2019, 01:44:34 AM
You've got it bad my friend. Do you actually think that Trumputin gives 2 shits about you or the country? He lost all sense of reality/morality when he became a drug addict. How many crimes does he have to commit, how many women does he have to rape, how many Russians does he have to collude with, how many times does he have to lie to you before you stop believing what he says? You probably don't even think he lies at all, do you? You think it's all Fake News and if what the dear leader says isn't the honest to god truth, then it should be! Is Fox News the only fake news you watch? Is Hannity also your god? Sad.  :(

PS. Jarad Kushner gave Mohammed bin Salman the go-ahead to apprehend Khashoggi at the Consulate. IOW, JK told MBS that the US would not retaliate even though the US has legal and moral obligations to Khashoggi, a US resident with three US citizen children. You truly are a deplorable for suggesting that Khashoggi's life was expendable because he was not a US citizen.

    Never said he was "expendable". What I said was  U.S. Citizens that have been murdered or go missing abroad merit Top Priority.
    Hope you are still capable of posting on this Forum after Trump gets re-elected. I fear that Trump Derangement Syndrome is going to totally consume you after the 2020 election. Get Help NOW!
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 16, 2019, 01:47:44 AM
You've got it bad my friend. Do you actually think that Trumputin gives 2 shits about you or the country? He lost all sense of reality/morality when he became a drug addict. How many crimes does he have to commit, how many women does he have to rape, how many Russians does he have to collude with, how many times does he have to lie to you before you stop believing what he says? You probably don't even think he lies at all, do you? You think it's all Fake News and if what the dear leader says isn't the honest to god truth, then it should be! Is Fox News the only fake news you watch? Is Hannity also your god? Sad.  :(

PS. Jarad Kushner gave Mohammed bin Salman the go-ahead to apprehend Khashoggi at the Consulate. IOW, JK told MBS that the US would not retaliate even though the US has legal and moral obligations to Khashoggi, a US resident with three US citizen children. You truly are a deplorable for suggesting that Khashoggi's life was expendable because he was not a US citizen.

I do not recall Trump's campaign promise to sell-out our Kurdish allies, literally on a moment's notice to their enemy, the Turkish dictator, Erdogan. Someone close to me is currently, as part of an elite U.S. military unit, deployed to train troops of a former Soviet bloc country. Trump's anti-U.S. fealty to Putin, as well as his pardons today of U.S. troops accused of war crimes over the objections of his own military command, endangers my associate and our country in at least two ways. The troops being trained in that former Soviet bloc country have, in the past month, diminished confidence in any promise of military support by the U.S. government against any future Putin ordered Russian military offensive, and all of our troops are now much less safer if accused of a crime while serving in any foreign country because Trump now demonstrates a criminal disregard for accountability of our troops under the Uniformed Code of Military Justice. Ironically, Trump today has lent support for Obama's decision to withdraw all U.S. troops from Iraq under the Bush admin. negotiated terms for withdrawal.

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.–Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement#SOFA_negotiations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.–Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement#SOFA_negotiations)
.....SOFA negotiations
Negotiations between the U.S. and Iraq for a new SOFA began in fall 2010. There were late-night meetings at the fortified compound of then Iraqi president, Jalal Talabani, and in video conferences between Baghdad and Washington. In June 2011, diplomats and Iraqi officials said that President Obama had told Prime Minister Maliki that he was prepared to leave up to 10,000 soldiers to continue training and equipping the Iraqi Security Forces (ISF). Mr. Maliki agreed, but said he needed time to line up political allies. Eventually, he gained authorization to continue talks with the U.S. on keeping troops in Iraq.[66] The Iraqi parliament returned from a recess in late November 2011 (shortly before the year-end withdrawal date) because of a concern that remaining U.S. troops would not be granted immunity by Iraqi courts. American field commanders were concerned about the Sadrist response if the troops remained and about Iraqi readiness for a transfer of power.[67]

In August 2011, after debates between the Pentagon, the State Department and the White House, the U.S. settled on the 3,000 to 5,000 troop number. An American official said intelligence assessments stated that Iraq was not at great risk of slipping into chaos in the absence of American forces, which was a factor in the decision.[66]

In October 2011, American officials pressed Iraqi leadership to meet again at President Talabani's compound to discuss the issue. This time the U.S. asked Iraq to take a stand on the question of immunity for troops, hoping to remove what had always been the biggest challenge. However, they misread Iraqi politics and the Iraqi public. Having watched the Arab Spring sweep across the region and still haunted by the traumas of this and previous wars, the Iraqis were unwilling to accept anything that infringed on their sovereignty.[66]

Iraqi leadership picked up on that sentiment quickly. As a result, they publicly said they would not support legal immunity for any American troops. Some American officials have privately said that pushing for that meeting—in essence forcing the Iraqis to take a public stand on such a controversial matter before working out the politics of presenting it to their constituents and to Parliament—was a severe tactical mistake that ended any possibility of keeping American troops past December 2011.[66]
.....

Disclaimer: I have had no communications with the deployed associate I described since Trump suddenly and unilaterally sold out our Kurdish allies and their hard fought for territory in Syria to dictator Erdogan and dictator Putin.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 16, 2019, 02:17:58 AM
    This is what happens to people that have Never listened closely to what Trump said during the campaign or at any point thereafter. They are Stunned when he does Exactly what he said he was going to do regarding "endless wars".  Some of You are Now spinning outta control like a whirling dervish. Get Help NOW!
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 16, 2019, 03:26:40 AM
    This is what happens to people that have Never listened closely to what Trump said during the campaign or at any point thereafter. They are Stunned when he does Exactly what he said he was going to do regarding "endless wars".  Some of You are Now spinning outta control like a whirling dervish. Get Help NOW!

What war? How was moving a handfull of troops who were stabilizing the safe zone and keeping the Kurds safe from the Turks ending a goddamned war? Hypocrite. Trump hung the Kurds out to die because Erdogan told him to.

Trump's campaign promise to get out of anywhere is always contingent on Putin's bucket list. Take Ukraine for example. How many Ukrainians did the Russians get to kill because Trump withheld military assistance for his oppo-research on Biden? Maybe you're the one who needs to listen closer. Get Help NOW!
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 16, 2019, 05:14:27 AM
Ok, we get that you don't like Trump. Fair enough.
What raised you? Behind all of your heavily repeated talking points, you stand to defend the worst line-up of Democrat candidates ever assembled. You must be so proud of them. Are there men that will vote for any of the Sesame Street characters? You are a man, right? Or just not a very bright one? You sound like a woman. Just my opinion. You freaks are so so wishy-washy. You change your mind, just like a woman. You love Wikileaks you hate Wikileaks. A whistleblower has 15 different meanings to an unstable liberal nutjob like yourself. I'm sure you agree

Ah, the anger of a right winger watching his criminal con man being exposed of his crimes on national tv. The local town drunk has more common sense and credibility than this loser.  Joe Biden is a respected career politician who has intelligence and served our country well. Benedict Donald is a fraud and career criminal who is a multiple time draft dodger. You aren't  very bright for being hoodwinked by this fake reality star pretending to be President. More devastating testimony against Benedict Donald to tomorrow. He got caught talking on the phone to Sonland orchestrating his fake smear against Biden. Also, he engaged in witness intimidation on Twitter which is illegal and another article of Impeachment. You'll be crying like a woman when Benedict Donald is impeached and indicted....enjoy!     
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 16, 2019, 05:18:29 AM
    Stone was Not convicted of Bribery, Extortion, or Collusion. Facts are Facts. Widen the sources you are using to gather Information. You are currently being fed straight-up  BS:

:D

Wikileaks is Russian Intelligence. Roger was colluding with them. Roger Stone is a convicted criminal along with the 5 other Stooges that was working for Benedict Donald . Your fed b.s. that you listened to has failed you since Benedict Donald is being impeached.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 16, 2019, 05:20:32 AM
   Glad you brought up "lying to Congress". On deck are Comey, Brennan, & Clapper. Stay tuned..........

:D

Just like the sham McCabe investigation that turned out to be nothing?   
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 16, 2019, 05:22:33 AM
    The "sack of doorknobs" has already been elected. He goes by the name of Adam Schiff.

Mr. Schiff is exposing a fraud and impeaching a criminal.  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 16, 2019, 05:43:18 AM
:D

Just like the sham McCabe investigation that turned out to be nothing?

    "Nothing"? Where is he working currently? "DRAIN THE SWAMP"
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 16, 2019, 05:46:55 AM
Mr. Schiff is exposing a fraud and impeaching a criminal.  Thumb1:

      Schiff said he had clear proof of collusion. Where is it? He also claimed the Steele Dossier was Not the center piece for the FISA's.  We shall soon see the Original FISA and the 3 renewal apps. Let's see if he Lied when those are released.  Dead Meat
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 16, 2019, 06:49:55 AM
      Schiff said he had clear proof of collusion. Where is it? He also claimed the Steele Dossier was Not the center piece for the FISA's.  We shall soon see the Original FISA and the 3 renewal apps. Let's see if he Lied when those are released.  Dead Meat

Royell,

Wasn't Carter Page suspected of being a Russian agent before Christopher Steele was hired to do opposition research on Trump?

https://amp-theatlantic-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/570655/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15738871684303&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theatlantic.com%2Fpolitics%2Farchive%2F2018%2F09%2Fcarter-page-is-a-very-unlikely-gop-hero%2F570655%2F

https://www-nbcnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna893666?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15738876005540&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fnews%2Fcrime-courts%2Fwhy-team-trump-wrong-about-carter-page-dossier-secret-warrant-n893666

Were the judges who renewed those FISA applications Democrats or Republicans?

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 16, 2019, 06:55:57 AM
A sack of doorknobs would be better. At least it wouldn't make the US a laughing stock to the rest of the world. Even Hillary Rodham Clinton would be better.  ;)
You are not serious. You don't like Trump but you could really care less who the President is, you are a small piece of America that follows the current affairs of the country as much as the media pushes them. You would have a tough time telling anyone what the last two positions Hillary held in the Federal Government.
Recently in the news, your media has been whining about Trump firing an U.S. Ambassador.
That is interesting since we know Hillary allowed a U.S. Ambassador to be murdered along with other U.S. citizens.  I love your thought process!
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 16, 2019, 07:09:03 AM
You are not serious. You don't like Trump but you could really care less who the President is, you are a small piece of America that follows the current affairs of the country as much as the media pushes them. You would have a tough time telling anyone what the last two positions Hillary held in the Federal Government.
Recently in the news, your media has been whining about Trump firing an U.S. Ambassador.
That is interesting since we know Hillary allowed a U.S. Ambassador to be murdered along with other U.S. citizens.  I love your thought process!

Peter Klienschmidt (sp?) is full of beans.

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 16, 2019, 07:09:42 AM
Royell,

Wasn't Carter Page suspected of being a Russian agent before Christopher Steele was hired to do opposition research on Trump?

https://amp-theatlantic-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/570655/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15738871684303&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theatlantic.com%2Fpolitics%2Farchive%2F2018%2F09%2Fcarter-page-is-a-very-unlikely-gop-hero%2F570655%2F

Were the judges who renewed those FISA applications Democrats or Republicans?

--  MWT  ;)
Don't worry, the CIA is being cleaned out as much as one could think is possible.
A year from now will be a different story and a great time to hear from you except I don't believe you'll have one thing to say.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 16, 2019, 07:16:08 AM
      Schiff said he had clear proof of collusion. Where is it? He also claimed the Steele Dossier was Not the center piece for the FISA's.  We shall soon see the Original FISA and the 3 renewal apps. Let's see if he Lied when those are released.  Dead Meat

How many times have Nunes and the propaganda spewed by Hannity via John Solomon, Sara Carter, and Chuck Ross disappointed and frustrated you... ten times, twenty-five times, I've lost count. You've willingly been fed a load of crap to shore up Trump's base.

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/04/10/why-are-republicans-still-squealing-about-fisa-applications-if-hpsci-report-cedes-carter-page-concerns/
WHY ARE REPUBLICANS STILL SQUEALING ABOUT FISA APPLICATIONS IF HPSCI REPORT CEDES CARTER PAGE CONCERNS?
April 10, 2018/in 2016 Presidential Election, emptywheel,
......
As with Sessions’ selection of Utah US Attorney John Huber to review other GOP demands, Sessions seems to be giving himself and his deputies cover from fairly ridiculous GOP demands.

Nevertheless, such concessions have not entirely sheltered Trump’s main targets from the kinds of complaints that might expose Robert Mueller’s investigation below them. Mark Meadows, one of the lead attack dogs in this congressional obstruction effort, even suggested Congress might impeach Rosenstein for failing to meet a 2-week deadline on a Bob Goodlatte subpoena.

Through it all, the complaints that FBI used the Steele dossier as one piece of evidence in Carter Page’s FISA application, persist. This, in spite of the fact that Page had been under FISA surveillance years before, and in spite of the fact that all sides agree that the counterintelligence investigation into Trump’s aides started in response to the George Papadopoulos tip from Australia.

This, in spite of the passage from the Schiff memo (including one redacted sentence) that seems to assert that FBI considered Page an on-going counterintelligence concern...

.....If you’re complaining that the Intelligence Community didn’t inform Trump about that members of his campaign team were “assessed to be potential counterintelligence concerns,” (and this likely includes Paul Manafort, as well as Page), then you can’t very well complain if FBI obtained a FISA warrant once those counterintelligence concerns left the campaign team. Hell, you’re practically inviting the FBI to obtain such a warrant while the counterintelligence concern is on the campaign, to help warn the candidate.

I know this is a bit to ask, but the GOP should not be able to have it both ways, to try to discredit the Trump investigation by pointing to the use of the Steele dossier in targeting Page, even while demanding FBI should have shared what it knew about Page because he posed a risk to Trump.

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/07/30/devin-nunes-promise-of-shock-shock-in-the-evolving-steele-claims-in-the-fourth-carter-page-fisa-applications/
DEVIN NUNES’ PROMISE OF SHOCK!! SHOCK!! IN THE EVOLVING STEELE CLAIMS IN THE FOURTH CARTER PAGE FISA APPLICATION
July 30, 2018/ in 2016 Presidential Election, Mueller Probe /by emptywheel

...The second section Republicans want selectively declassified pertains to Steele. And there, there are significant changes to the application over the course of the four applications, second only to section where the most changes get made over the course of the four applications, the entirely redacted Section VI (it grows from 3 pages in the first application to 23 in the fourth). The Steele section grows from 7 pages in the first application to 11 in the last, with changes in each application and substantial changes in the last two. Here are all the sections that are new in the fourth, the one the Republicans want declassified:....

...Byron appears not to understand that Steele’s response to Comey’s actions on October 28 could not have added bias to his reporting from prior to that date, which is when all of his reports
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3259984-Trump-Intelligence-Allegations.html
shared formally with the FBI date to (the one other report, dated December 13, was only shared informally).

Whatever the additional caveats on Steele that Nunes is so sure will shock! shock!! the press when all his past predictions of shock have fallen flat, the Minority apparently disagrees. That’s because the Schiff Memo cites precisely the passage that Nunes is so sure will shock us for the following claims:...

....For what it’s worth, a Republican who has reviewed these things told me last week that there was abundant evidence to support the surveillance on Page. So mostly this is just an attempt to beat up the Democrats for the Steele dossier; honest Republicans agree that Page was a legitimate surveillance target.

This is something the right wing press corps is struggling with (the cognitive dissonance among people like Ross would be palpable if logic were a requirement in his work) as much as the left wing, however. It appears increasingly likely that Steele was fed disinformation
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/01/29/on-disinformation-and-the-dossier/
 as a way to confuse the Democrats and ensure any investigation would look at marginal dolts like Page rather than centrally important dolts like Don Jr. I’ll even present a new factoid about how that may have happened in a follow-up.

That doesn’t mean that when the FBI relied on Steele, using the same measure they use for all consultants (past track record), they had reason to know it was disinformation. Rather, it’s yet another indication that Russia was really really intent on making sure it could get Trump elected, via whatever deceit.

But that doesn’t help the GOP claim that Trump isn’t thereby implicated.

Update: Fixed Dana Boente, not Sally Yates, as approving the third application h/t jr.]/quote]
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 16, 2019, 07:16:49 AM
You are not serious. You don't like Trump but you could really care less who the President is, you are a small piece of America that follows the current affairs of the country as much as the media pushes them. You would have a tough time telling anyone what the last two positions Hillary held in the Federal Government.
Recently in the news, your media has been whining about Trump firing an U.S. Ambassador.
That is interesting since we know Hillary allowed a U.S. Ambassador to be murdered along with other U.S. citizens.  I love your thought process!

Kleinschmidt,

What were the findings of the long-running Benghazi Investigation?

Should Hillary have fired that ambassador for trumped-up (pardon the pun) malfeasance instead of "murdering" him?
.
How many people do you figure the Clintons have murdered so far, not counting Seth Rich?

Fifty-seven or something?

LOL

You're full of beans and Putin's propaganda, unfortunately, Klienschmidt.
.
Mark "Paid By The KGB" Lane, Jim "Mobbed Up" Garrison, and Oliver "I Like Putin And My Son Works For RT" Stone will do that to you over time.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 16, 2019, 07:18:47 AM
Don't worry, the CIA is being cleaned out as much as one could think is possible.
A year from now will be a different story and a great time to hear from you except I don't believe you'll have one thing to say.

In your xxx dreams, Klienschmidt.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 16, 2019, 04:21:35 PM
Royell,

Wasn't Carter Page suspected of being a Russian agent before Christopher Steele was hired to do opposition research on Trump?

https://amp-theatlantic-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/570655/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15738871684303&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theatlantic.com%2Fpolitics%2Farchive%2F2018%2F09%2Fcarter-page-is-a-very-unlikely-gop-hero%2F570655%2F

https://www-nbcnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna893666?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15738876005540&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fnews%2Fcrime-courts%2Fwhy-team-trump-wrong-about-carter-page-dossier-secret-warrant-n893666

Were the judges who renewed those FISA applications Democrats or Republicans?

--  MWT  ;)

    STOP the dodge. We will very soon see if Schiff was Lying when he Repeatedly claimed the Steele Dossier was Not the centerpiece for the FISA's.  Brace yourself in advance.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 16, 2019, 07:18:23 PM
    STOP the dodge. We will very soon see if Schiff was Lying when he Repeatedly claimed the Steele Dossier was Not the centerpiece for the FISA's.  Brace yourself in advance.

Answer the questions, Storing.

If you dare.

--  MWT  ;)


Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on November 16, 2019, 11:17:47 PM
Difference between Watergate and Trumpdump.....

NIxon eventually saw writing on the wall and resigned.

Republicans know Trump would never take that decision.

Because they realize that, the GOP will defend him to the death.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 17, 2019, 03:12:08 AM
Royell,

Wasn't Carter Page suspected of being a Russian agent before Christopher Steele was hired to do opposition research on Trump?

https://amp-theatlantic-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/570655/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15738871684303&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theatlantic.com%2Fpolitics%2Farchive%2F2018%2F09%2Fcarter-page-is-a-very-unlikely-gop-hero%2F570655%2F

https://www-nbcnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna893666?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15738876005540&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fnews%2Fcrime-courts%2Fwhy-team-trump-wrong-about-carter-page-dossier-secret-warrant-n893666

Were the judges who renewed those FISA applications Democrats or Republicans?

--  MWT  ;)

      Schiff said he had clear proof of collusion. Where is it? He also claimed the Steele Dossier was Not the center piece for the FISA's.  We shall soon see the Original FISA and the 3 renewal apps. Let's see if he Lied when those are released.  Dead Meat

How many times have Nunes and the propaganda spewed by Hannity via John Solomon, Sara Carter, and Chuck Ross disappointed and frustrated you... ten times, twenty-five times, I've lost count. You've willingly been fed a load of crap to shore up Trump's base.

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/04/10/why-are-republicans-still-squealing-about-fisa-applications-if-hpsci-report-cedes-carter-page-concerns/
WHY ARE REPUBLICANS STILL SQUEALING ABOUT FISA APPLICATIONS IF HPSCI REPORT CEDES CARTER PAGE CONCERNS?
April 10, 2018/in 2016 Presidential Election, emptywheel,
......
As with Sessions’ selection of Utah US Attorney John Huber to review other GOP demands, Sessions seems to be giving himself and his deputies cover from fairly ridiculous GOP demands.

Nevertheless, such concessions have not entirely sheltered Trump’s main targets from the kinds of complaints that might expose Robert Mueller’s investigation below them. Mark Meadows, one of the lead attack dogs in this congressional obstruction effort, even suggested Congress might impeach Rosenstein for failing to meet a 2-week deadline on a Bob Goodlatte subpoena.

Through it all, the complaints that FBI used the Steele dossier as one piece of evidence in Carter Page’s FISA application, persist. This, in spite of the fact that Page had been under FISA surveillance years before, and in spite of the fact that all sides agree that the counterintelligence investigation into Trump’s aides started in response to the George Papadopoulos tip from Australia.

This, in spite of the passage from the Schiff memo (including one redacted sentence) that seems to assert that FBI considered Page an on-going counterintelligence concern...

.....If you’re complaining that the Intelligence Community didn’t inform Trump about that members of his campaign team were “assessed to be potential counterintelligence concerns,” (and this likely includes Paul Manafort, as well as Page), then you can’t very well complain if FBI obtained a FISA warrant once those counterintelligence concerns left the campaign team. Hell, you’re practically inviting the FBI to obtain such a warrant while the counterintelligence concern is on the campaign, to help warn the candidate.

I know this is a bit to ask, but the GOP should not be able to have it both ways, to try to discredit the Trump investigation by pointing to the use of the Steele dossier in targeting Page, even while demanding FBI should have shared what it knew about Page because he posed a risk to Trump.

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/07/30/devin-nunes-promise-of-shock-shock-in-the-evolving-steele-claims-in-the-fourth-carter-page-fisa-applications/
DEVIN NUNES’ PROMISE OF SHOCK!! SHOCK!! IN THE EVOLVING STEELE CLAIMS IN THE FOURTH CARTER PAGE FISA APPLICATION
July 30, 2018/ in 2016 Presidential Election, Mueller Probe /by emptywheel

...The second section Republicans want selectively declassified pertains to Steele. And there, there are significant changes to the application over the course of the four applications, second only to section where the most changes get made over the course of the four applications, the entirely redacted Section VI (it grows from 3 pages in the first application to 23 in the fourth). The Steele section grows from 7 pages in the first application to 11 in the last, with changes in each application and substantial changes in the last two. Here are all the sections that are new in the fourth, the one the Republicans want declassified:....

...Byron appears not to understand that Steele’s response to Comey’s actions on October 28 could not have added bias to his reporting from prior to that date, which is when all of his reports
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3259984-Trump-Intelligence-Allegations.html
shared formally with the FBI date to (the one other report, dated December 13, was only shared informally).

Whatever the additional caveats on Steele that Nunes is so sure will shock! shock!! the press when all his past predictions of shock have fallen flat, the Minority apparently disagrees. That’s because the Schiff Memo cites precisely the passage that Nunes is so sure will shock us for the following claims:...

....For what it’s worth, a Republican who has reviewed these things told me last week that there was abundant evidence to support the surveillance on Page. So mostly this is just an attempt to beat up the Democrats for the Steele dossier; honest Republicans agree that Page was a legitimate surveillance target.

This is something the right wing press corps is struggling with (the cognitive dissonance among people like Ross would be palpable if logic were a requirement in his work) as much as the left wing, however. It appears increasingly likely that Steele was fed disinformation
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/01/29/on-disinformation-and-the-dossier/
 as a way to confuse the Democrats and ensure any investigation would look at marginal dolts like Page rather than centrally important dolts like Don Jr. I’ll even present a new factoid about how that may have happened in a follow-up.

That doesn’t mean that when the FBI relied on Steele, using the same measure they use for all consultants (past track record), they had reason to know it was disinformation. Rather, it’s yet another indication that Russia was really really intent on making sure it could get Trump elected, via whatever deceit.

But that doesn’t help the GOP claim that Trump isn’t thereby implicated.

Update: Fixed Dana Boente, not Sally Yates, as approving the third application h/t jr.

I hope rational readers will grasp that Trump and his supporters take an irrational position in that they demand it both ways. Hope Hicks, comms director of Trump 2016, as well as senior advisor to Trump and the email link to Trump and the outside world, testified under oath that Carter Page was not part of the Trump campaign and therefore, it was irrelevant when he was seperated from the campaign, because he was never affiliated with it. So, REASON dictates any court approved surveillance by FBI of Carter Page is divorced from any claim "the Obama FBI" was illegally or unethically targeting the Trump campaign via any FISA or other warrant application to a court. Or perhaps Ms. Hick's perjured herself in the presence of her own and White House OLC lawyers?

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpHopeHicksTestimonyPg001.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpHopeHicksTestimonyPg113.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpHopeHicksTestimonyPg168.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpHopeHicksTestimonyPg169.jpg)

From my POV, the fixation of the Trump camp on the largely irrelevant Steele Dossier details is akin to the current fixation on unmasking the identity of the whistleblower .... irrelevant distraction intent on keeping the Trump base in the pen for as long as possible, and maybe even for months after that!

Royell, in the interest of determining if we speak different dialects of the same language vs a more severe disconnect,
and because, to put it politely, Trump was best known in "fly over" country as a reality TV show host, a performer, when
did Trump or his republican party affiliates or his Fox News supporters lead you to believe Trump first learned of the "Pee Tape" component of the Steele Dossier? IOW, do you believe Comey first made Trump aware of this incident involving hookers urinating on a Moscow hotel bed in Trump's presence... that Trump was unaware of this accusation before Comey described it to him, post 2016 election?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 18, 2019, 12:21:21 AM
      Schiff said he had clear proof of collusion. Where is it? He also claimed the Steele Dossier was Not the center piece for the FISA's.  We shall soon see the Original FISA and the 3 renewal apps. Let's see if he Lied when those are released.  Dead Meat
[/quote

The last FISA showed nothing. Just another right wing distraction. The clear proof has already been testified to by David Holmes who heard Gordon Sondland talking to Benedict Donald on the phone orchestrating the whole fake Biden smear. Gordon Sondland better come clean on Wednesday or he will be rung up on perjury charges.   
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 18, 2019, 12:27:06 AM
You are not serious. You don't like Trump but you could really care less who the President is, you are a small piece of America that follows the current affairs of the country as much as the media pushes them. You would have a tough time telling anyone what the last two positions Hillary held in the Federal Government.
Recently in the news, your media has been whining about Trump firing an U.S. Ambassador.
That is interesting since we know Hillary allowed a U.S. Ambassador to be murdered along with other U.S. citizens.  I love your thought process!

This is a blatant lie. Benghazi was already investigated by Republicans for years and found nothing wrong. Clinton sat for 12 hours under oath and the GOP found nothing. So, quit posting b.s. lies. Benedict Donald wouldn't even go under oath because he is afraid to.   
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 18, 2019, 07:09:19 AM
Difference between Watergate and Trumpdump.....

NIxon eventually saw writing on the wall and resigned.

Republicans know Trump would never take that decision.

Because they realize that, the GOP will defend him to the death.
All the diplomats in the Ukraine are less about their dislike for Trump and more about covering up for the fact of our own State Dept. having many of our tax dollars illegally funneled through groups who just happen to be connected to Democrat hero George Soros. 

Research this kid Manipulator
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on November 18, 2019, 10:30:40 AM
All the diplomats in the Ukraine are less about their dislike for Trump and more about covering up for the fact of our own State Dept. having many of our tax dollars illegally funneled through groups who just happen to be connected to Democrat hero George Soros. 

Research this kid Manipulator

And exactly what relevance does your post have to do with my observations?

Another phylosophical point might be...for all the ForeverTrumpists. Why is the USA concerned about other countries influencing their elections when historically they clearly have no issue with the reverse?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 18, 2019, 03:59:11 PM
How many times have Nunes and the propaganda spewed by Hannity via John Solomon, Sara Carter, and Chuck Ross disappointed and frustrated you... ten times, twenty-five times, I've lost count. You've willingly been fed a load of crap to shore up Trump's base.


I hope rational readers will grasp that Trump and his supporters take an irrational position in that they demand it both ways. Hope Hicks, comms director of Trump 2016, as well as senior advisor to Trump and the email link to Trump and the outside world, testified under oath that Carter Page was not part of the Trump campaign and therefore, it was irrelevant when he was seperated from the campaign, because he was never affiliated with it. So, REASON dictates any court approved surveillance by FBI of Carter Page is divorced from any claim "the Obama FBI" was illegally or unethically targeting the Trump campaign via any FISA or other warrant application to a court. Or perhaps Ms. Hick's perjured herself in the presence of her own and White House OLC lawyers?

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpHopeHicksTestimonyPg001.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpHopeHicksTestimonyPg113.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpHopeHicksTestimonyPg168.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpHopeHicksTestimonyPg169.jpg)

From my POV, the fixation of the Trump camp on the largely irrelevant Steele Dossier details is akin to the current fixation on unmasking the identity of the whistleblower .... irrelevant distraction intent on keeping the Trump base in the pen for as long as possible, and maybe even for months after that!

Royell, in the interest of determining if we speak different dialects of the same language vs a more severe disconnect,
and because, to put it politely, Trump was best known in "fly over" country as a reality TV show host, a performer, when
did Trump or his republican party affiliates or his Fox News supporters lead you to believe Trump first learned of the "Pee Tape" component of the Steele Dossier? IOW, do you believe Comey first made Trump aware of this incident involving hookers urinating on a Moscow hotel bed in Trump's presence... that Trump was unaware of this accusation before Comey described it to him, post 2016 election?

     What you either Fail to Understand or are purposely avoiding mentioning is that a granted FISA also goes BACK IN TIME as well as includes the communications that Page had with ALL affiliated Trump Campaign staffers. Tranlation = the granted FISA extends back before the date it was issued and also applies to ALL Trump Staffers that Page communicated with in any manner.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 18, 2019, 06:27:43 PM
     What you either Fail to Understand or are purposely avoiding mentioning is that a granted FISA also goes BACK IN TIME as well as includes the communications that Page had with ALL affiliated Trump Campaign staffers. Tranlation = the granted FISA extends back before the date it was issued and also applies to ALL Trump Staffers that Page communicated with in any manner.

Royell, where is Barr's big hammer? He's back now and briefed #45, didn't he? If there was something there, there #45 would be all over it, wouldn't he? Instead, after Barr unloaded all the dirt he dug up, #45 silently scooted past the press without his usual chopper talk BS. WTF?

ps. #45 said he had no idea who Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman were. Do you believe him?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 18, 2019, 06:44:03 PM
All I ever did was show a picture of Tulsi Gabbard with a Kennedy conspiracy [related to the forum] book and Mr Scully starts wetting his panties :-\
Kleinschmidt,
In your xxx dreams, Klienschmidt.
Answer the questions, Storing. If you dare.
Notice when Tommy's feathers get ruffled he starts barking people's last names?
Freeman

(https://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/sk111719dAPC20191115094619.jpg)

(https://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gv111719dAPR20191117064508.jpg)


 
 
 
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 18, 2019, 07:18:19 PM

Jerry, do you think that the Trump, Giuliani, Parnas and Fruman "drug deal" was "perfect"?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 18, 2019, 08:08:59 PM
Mr. Freeman, how can we possibly have a reasonable discussion when you are including in your post, misleading republican talking points images linked to townhall-dot-com ?

Quote
https://www.thedailybeast.com/chuck-todd-confronts-gop-sen-ron-johnson-you-blame-everybody-but-trump-on-ukraine-scandal
Chuck Todd Confronts GOP Senator: You Blame ‘Everybody’ but Trump on Ukraine Scandal
“Isn’t the president’s own behavior, which raised all of these yellow and red flags, isn’t that why we’re here?” the NBC host pressed Ron Johnson on Sunday.
Contributor Justin Baragona
Published Nov. 17, 2019 12:25PM ET
.....The Wisconsin senator said he was “sympathetic” to Trump because he “has been tormented” since right after he was elected, causing him to take aim at the impeachment inquiry whistleblower’s lawyer for tweeting about a “coup” days after Trump’s inauguration.

Todd, however, noted that while Johnson was fuming over early calls for Trump’s impeachment, the Republican lawmaker himself was pushing for Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton’s impeachment days BEFORE the 2016 election....


Odd that Jerry and Royell are arguing for less information, less transparency, less accountability from the Trump admin, on of all places, a JFK Assassination conspiracy and cover up discussion forum!.

Trump party senator, (Putin compromised chairman of senate Homeland Security Dept. oversight who touts "deep state" nonsense and is indifferent to emphasis on protecting our election systems, expressing a month ago his distruct of FBI and CIA) from yesterday's Meet the Press transcript
Quote
https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meet-press-november-17-2019-n1084351
....
SENATOR RON JOHNSON:
.... Having this all come out into public has weakened that relationship, has exposed things that didn't need to be exposed...

Exposed facts like the POTUS demanding a bribe of political dirt and smearing of his perceived strongest domestic political opponent and his son, from the newly elected and inexperienced young president of Ukraine, in exchange for vitally needed military aid already appropriated by congress and approved by Pentagon corruption watch dogs that Trump himself ordered suspended while he extorted the president of Ukraine as Putin backed invaders occupy a section of Ukraine as large as Texas, after Putin stole Crimea from Ukraine in 2014 through covert invasion.

Quote
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/17/us/politics/republicans-trump-impeachment.html
Republicans Shift Defense of Trump While He Attacks Another Witness
With Gordon Sondland prepared to testify this week, Republicans backed away from complaints about secondhand information and instead offered a blunter defense: The president did nothing wrong.
November 17, 2019 ......

All I ever did was show a picture of Tulsi Gabbard with a Kennedy conspiracy [related to the forum] book and Mr Scully starts wetting his panties :-\ Notice when Tommy's feathers get ruffled he starts barking people's last names?
Freeman

Disclaimer by Tom Scully:
(..... Winger extremist talking points images posted from winger extremist townhall.com omitted by Tom Scully in the interests of brevity and accuracy. It is untrue that the testimony of impeachment inquiry witnesses is founded on heresay, but even if it were, there are 20+ exceptions to the federal heresay restrictions, as every congressional rep. who is an attorney and has been spouting that nonsense, likely is aware of, and an impeachment inquiry is not a criminal or civil court proceeding, it operates per the Constitution and rules written and adopted by House republicans in 2015. Further, the list of witnesses testifying to their first person knowledge of the call, or present at meetings and testifying with first person accounts of those meetings in growing. Some of the non-heresay witnesses who testified were Gordon Sondland, two others who listened in on "the perfect call," in realtime, and on Saturday, David Holmes impeached Sondland (after two attempts by Sondland to convince the House inquiry he was truthfully testifying) in testimony stating Sondland, who Trump claimed he barely knew, had the ability to call Trump directly and that Trump could be clearly heard in a loud voice, one day after "the perfect call," asking if the president of Ukraine would cooperate with Trump's extortion of him.)

Quote
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/impeachment-showdown-takes-center-stage-public-hearing/story?id=66948256
Testimony at 1st impeachment hearing: Trump asked about Ukraine 'investigations'
The historic first public impeachment hearing ended Wednesday with .... Taylor agreed that he was not on the president's call in question himself and that he didn’t claim any firsthand knowledge, saying he doesn’t consider himself a “star witness” for anyone..... with Gordon Sondland speaking of "investigations" is At the same time, ABC's Katherine Faulders and John Parkinson report that the aide who Taylor testified as overhearing President Trump in a conversation with Gordon Sondland speaking of "investigations" is David Holmes, who has been scheduled for a closed-door deposition.

Quote
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry/live-blog/impeachment-hearings-live-updates-yovanovitch-s-testimony-n1082501/ncrd1083196#liveBlogHeader
Jane C. Timm
Nov. 15, 2019 / 12:49 PM EST
Trump camp decries 'hearsay.' But many firsthand witnesses have defied subpoenas.
"Another day, another Democrat star witness with no firsthand knowledge and all hearsay,” wrote Trump campaign press secretary Kayleigh McEnany on Twitter. It's a familiar talking point for Republicans — they used it on Wednesday, too.

But Trump's White House has told witnesses — many of them with first-hand knowledge of events and conversations — not to testify in the inquiry. In a letter to top Democrats from White House counsel Pat Cipollone, the White House claimed that the president and his administration “cannot participate in your partisan and unconstitutional inquiry.” The White House has also pressured witnesses who agreed to speak with investigators to limit their testimony.

Selective memory, Jerry?

quote author=Jerry Freeman
Do what now?
 Tulsi was the only one up on the stage that has a semblance of a brain :-\

Royell, Trump ACTS as if he was unaware of the most embarrassing Steele dossier details until Comey briefed him.
You ignored the question I asked, puzzling if you sincerely want to be informed of the actual facts. Unsurprisingly, neither you or Jerry Freeman, in your replies, asked for a link to the June, 2019 testimony of Hope Hicks I posted page images from.

Royell, I assume you are not going to respond to the question, what details do you believe Trump was actually aware of and when was he aware of them before Comey briefed Trump about the claims of hookers in Trump's Moscow hotel room in 2013?

Trump is a television performer spewing crocodile tears, falsely blaming his scapegoats for learning (and not leaking) what he was already well aware of. Unlike Trump, Comey and Brennan were not the ones leaking about details in the Steele dossier or deliberately misleading the American public.

Quote
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/22/trump-vengeance-john-brennan-russia-053970
Trump’s quest for vengeance against John Brennan
In Attorney General William Barr’s review of the Russia probe, some see a presidential target.
By NATASHA BERTRAND and DANIEL LIPPMAN
10/22/2019 05:06 AM EDT
.....Since the beginning of his presidency, Trump has also repeatedly attacked Brennan publicly, tweeting about the former CIA director more than two dozen times. He’s questioned Brennan’s mental acuity and called him a liar, a leaker and blamed him for having “detailed knowledge of the (phony) Dossier,” a reference to the raw intelligence reports on Trump’s alleged Russia ties by British former MI-6 officer Christopher Steele. He also tried to unilaterally strip Brennan of his security clearance — a process the White House reportedly never went through with — and urged the House to call him in for questioning.

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpTweetBrennanSteeleHookers.jpg)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 18, 2019, 08:40:28 PM
Royell, where is Barr's big hammer? He's back now and briefed #45, didn't he? If there was something there, there #45 would be all over it, wouldn't he? Instead, after Barr unloaded all the dirt he dug up, #45 silently scooted past the press without his usual chopper talk BS. WTF?

ps. #45 said he had no idea who Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman were. Do you believe him?

    The Main Players in the Deep State are Now getting very antsy. Marie Antoinette had these same inklings 1 time and 1 time Only. The Dumb Dem's are currently shooting their wad while the IG and Durham/Barr Investigations simply wait in the wings.  As the saying goes, "Timing is Everything".
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 18, 2019, 08:43:25 PM
Mr. Freeman, how can we possibly have a reasonable discussion when you are including in your post, misleading republican talking points images linked to townhall-dot-com ?

Selective memory, Jerry?

quote author=Jerry Freeman
Royell, Trump ACTS as if he was unaware of the most embarrassing Steele dossier details until Comey briefed him.
You ignored the question I asked, puzzling if you sincerely want to be informed of the actual facts. Unsurprisingly, neither you or Jerry Freeman, in your replies, asked for a link to the June, 2019 testimony of Hope Hicks I posted page images from.

Royell, I assume you are not going to respond to the question, what details do you believe Trump was actually aware of and when was he aware of them before Comey briefed Trump about the claims of hookers in Trump's Moscow hotel room in 2013?

Trump is a television performer spewing crocodile tears, falsely blaming his scapegoats for learning (and not leaking) what he was already well aware of. Unlike Trump, Comey and Brennan were not the ones leaking about details in the Steele dossier or deliberately misleading the American public.

    I exposed your short comings regarding the post dating of a FISA and the individuals that post dating also then ensnared. Next time, Bone Up before popping off.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 18, 2019, 09:21:17 PM
    I exposed your short comings regarding the post dating of a FISA and the individuals that post dating also then ensnared. Next time, Bone Up before popping off.

Third and last time I'll ask, and BTW, who is your audience for your "Deep State" Trump party nonsense and your fixation on irrelevant FISA filings, four of them, signed in succession by DOJ Asst. Attys General and examined and approved by republican appointed FISA court judges certainly aware Carter Page would be elevated when talking points dictated, vs Hope Hicks's June, 2019 testimony (which you reposted) that it was unnecessary to dismiss Carter Page from the Trump campaign because he was never actually a participant?

.....
Royell, Trump ACTS as if he was unaware of the most embarrassing Steele dossier details until Comey briefed him.
You ignored the question I asked, puzzling if you sincerely want to be informed of the actual facts. Unsurprisingly, neither you or Jerry Freeman, in your replies, asked for a link to the June, 2019 testimony of Hope Hicks I posted page images from.

Royell, I assume you are not going to respond to the question, what details do you believe Trump was actually aware of and when was he aware of them before Comey briefed Trump about the claims of hookers in Trump's Moscow hotel room in 2013? ...
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 18, 2019, 09:25:38 PM
Third and last time I'll ask, and BTW, who is your audience for your "Deep State" Trump party nonsense and your fixation on irrelevant FISA filings, four of them, signed in succession by DOJ Asst. Attys General and examined and approved by republican appointed FISA court judges certainly aware Carter Page would be elevated when talking points dictated, vs Hope Hicks's June, 2019 testimony (which you reposted) that it was unnecessary to dismiss Carter Page from the Trump campaign because he was never actually a participant?

     After schooling you, I am hoping you get up-to-speed. You have been fed 1/2 the story at best. As is usually the case, the most reliable information is that which you garner on your own. Get Crackin'.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 18, 2019, 09:42:58 PM
     After schooling you, I am hoping you get up-to-speed. You have been fed 1/2 the story at best. As is usually the case, the most reliable information is that which you garner on your own. Get Crackin'.

OMG, Royell, open your eyes. You do not seem to grasp you are reposting Kremlin talking points.

Quote
https://www.facebook.com/JudicialWatch/posts/10156873043671943?comment_id=10156875769556943&comment_tracking=%7B"tn"%3A"R"%7D
Judicial Watch
June 4 ·
Dr. Carter Page joined JW’s Deep State panel: “This attack, in terms of the civil rights abuses against myself, wasn’t an attack on me. They were really trying to get at President Trump as a way of infiltrating his campaign.”
Watch more here: http://jwatch.us/joEwmo

You ignore my question, I respond to yours.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 18, 2019, 09:46:45 PM
    I exposed your short comings regarding the post dating of a FISA and the individuals that post dating also then ensnared. Next time, Bone Up before popping off.

Royell, are you getting all this alt-right tin-foil hat CT stuff from Alex Jones and Trump Whisperer, Sean Hannity? Do you actually believe they have the inside track?

It was McCain who handed over the Steele Dossier to the FBI. Last I heard he wasn't a member of the Deep State but he was a Never Trumper and they are "human scum", after all. It was a Republican who hired Fusion GPS to employ Steele to create the dossier in the 1st place. And didn't Republican Comey sabotage Clinton with that damning memo a few weeks before the election? They certainly made strange bedfellows or was that just a cover?

FYI from Wikipedia (not Wiki-leaks)

"In October 2015, Fusion GPS was contracted by conservative political website The Washington Free Beacon to provide general opposition research on Trump and other Republican presidential candidates. In April 2016, an attorney for Hillary Clinton's campaign and the DNC separately hired Fusion GPS to investigate Trump, while The Free Beacon stopped its backing in May of 2016. In June 2016, Fusion GPS subcontracted Steele's firm to compile the dossier. DNC officials denied knowing their attorney had contracted with Fusion GPS, and Steele asserted he was not aware the Clinton campaign was the recipient of his research until months after he contracted with Fusion GPS. Following Trump's election as president, funding from Clinton and the DNC ceased, but Steele continued his research and was reportedly paid directly by Fusion GPS co-founder Glenn R. Simpson."

Roger Stone is finally going to jail for his dirty tricks and lying to protect Trump from being implicated in collusion with the Russians via Wiki-leaks to get dirt on Clinton. This means Trump perjured himself on his written testimony and might join Roger as a cellmate after his ousting. I wonder what else Barr redacted from the Mueller Report? Surely there was enough to justify issuing a FISA warrant to "spy" on the Trump campaign since he's a goddamned crook many times over.

This might be the Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS)  talking, but if every single word that Trumpty Dumpty doesn't like to hear makes you a deranged Fake Newser (FNer), then guilty as charged. All these new labels and catch phrases are kinda fun tho.

JT TDS
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 18, 2019, 10:28:03 PM
OMG, Royell, open your eyes. You do not seem to grasp you are reposting Kremlin talking points.

You ignore my question, I respond to yours.

    When do we get to the point where you flat-out call me a "Russian Agent"? This would be funny if Not for your previous good work. You are suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome. Get Help
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 18, 2019, 10:42:04 PM
Royell, are you getting all this alt-right tin-foil hat CT stuff from Alex Jones and Trump Whisperer, Sean Hannity? Do you actually believe they have the inside track?

It was McCain who handed over the Steele Dossier to the FBI. Last I heard he wasn't a member of the Deep State but he was a Never Trumper and they are "human scum", after all. It was a Republican who hired Fusion GPS to employ Steele to create the dossier in the 1st place. And didn't Republican Comey sabotage Clinton with that damning memo a few weeks before the election? They certainly made strange bedfellows or was that just a cover?

FYI from Wikipedia (not Wiki-leaks)

"In October 2015, Fusion GPS was contracted by conservative political website The Washington Free Beacon to provide general opposition research on Trump and other Republican presidential candidates. In April 2016, an attorney for Hillary Clinton's campaign and the DNC separately hired Fusion GPS to investigate Trump, while The Free Beacon stopped its backing in May of 2016. In June 2016, Fusion GPS subcontracted Steele's firm to compile the dossier. DNC officials denied knowing their attorney had contracted with Fusion GPS, and Steele asserted he was not aware the Clinton campaign was the recipient of his research until months after he contracted with Fusion GPS. Following Trump's election as president, funding from Clinton and the DNC ceased, but Steele continued his research and was reportedly paid directly by Fusion GPS co-founder Glenn R. Simpson."

Roger Stone is finally going to jail for his dirty tricks and lying to protect Trump from being implicated in collusion with the Russians via Wiki-leaks to get dirt on Clinton. This means Trump perjured himself on his written testimony and might join Roger as a cellmate after his ousting. I wonder what else Barr redacted from the Mueller Report? Surely there was enough to justify issuing a FISA warrant to "spy" on the Trump campaign since he's a goddamned crook many times over.

This might be the Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS)  talking, but if every single word that Trumpty Dumpty doesn't like to hear makes you a deranged Fake Newser (FNer), then guilty as charged. All these new labels and catch phrases are kinda fun tho.

JT TDS
   
   JACK - You are another one that has been fed only a scant portion of the Whole story. (1) The Steele Dossier was an evolving document = there were Several Versions of the Steele Dossier. McCain delivered 1 version of the Steele Dossier. (2) The  Free Beacon hired Fusion GPS to do general research work for them inside the U.S. during the Primaries. This did Not involve the hiring/use of Steele. The Dem's used Fusion GPS to gather info from around the world regarding Trump. This world wide search then involved the hiring/use of British based Steele. Fusion GPS has all kinds of packages that they sell to clients. These packages involve both domestic and foreign sources and their charge/$$$ for these packages reflects this. I recommend you read the Congressional closed door testimony of Fusion GPS Founder Glen Simpson. He details these packages during that very lengthy testimony. Your information regarding Fusion GPS and the Steele Dossier is woefully inadequate. Please take the time and research this subject. Your current sources for information/news are preventing you from exposing educated opinions. (Wikipedia? Really? This helps explain your current position)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 19, 2019, 12:29:45 AM
   
   JACK - You are another one that has been fed only a scant portion of the Whole story. (1) The Steele Dossier was an evolving document = there were Several Versions of the Steele Dossier. McCain delivered 1 version of the Steele Dossier. (2) The  Free Beacon hired Fusion GPS to do general research work for them inside the U.S. during the Primaries. This did Not involve the hiring/use of Steele. The Dem's used Fusion GPS to gather info from around the world regarding Trump. This world wide search then involved the hiring/use of British based Steele. Fusion GPS has all kinds of packages that they sell to clients. These packages involve both domestic and foreign sources and their charge/$$$ for these packages reflects this. I recommend you read the Congressional closed door testimony of Fusion GPS Founder Glen Simpson. He details these packages during that very lengthy testimony. Your information regarding Fusion GPS and the Steele Dossier is woefully inadequate. Please take the time and research this subject. Your current sources for information/news are preventing you from exposing educated opinions. (Wikipedia? Really? This helps explain your current position)

Royell, how does this in any way get Trump off the hook from colluding with Russia just like Roger Stone finally admitted? Trump's shenanigans with Russia was more than enough to justify a FISA warrant. Otherwise, what the hell was he doing with all those Russians and why are so many of his aides in jail right now over it? You do believe that Russia meddled in the 2016 election, don't you? Or do you think it was Ukraine?

I have read the testimony of Glen Simpson and they were up to the same crazy shit that Cambridge Analytica was into. Dirty oppo-research, just like Trump did in Ukraine. If he did it in Ukraine then why doubt that he would collude with Russia? What's good for the goose.

How does the "oranges" of the dossier have anything to do with the validity of its content? A good portion of it has been confirmed, but Steele never claimed that all of it was true. Is it the pee-pee tape that you're fixated on? Only Trump cares about that and you KNOW that Trump was deviant enough to have participated in an illicit sex act. Just ask the owners of the dozens of pussies he grabbed and much more, like Daniels and McDougal.

Face it, your boy is a crook who is probably guilty of at least 90% of what's in the dossier and much much more. As soon as you pry his tax returns out of his tiny hands, you will finally see how deep the Russian rabbit hole goes. The thought of his tax returns being handed over Wed probably gave him a panic attack sending him to the hospital thinking this was the big one.


Lucky for him the Supreme Court blocked them for now.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 19, 2019, 12:49:10 AM
Royell, how does this in any way get Trump off the hook from colluding with Russia just like Roger Stone finally admitted? Trump's shenanigans with Russia was more than enough to justify a FISA warrant. Otherwise, what the hell was he doing with all those Russians and why are so many of his aides in jail right now over it? You do believe that Russia meddled in the 2016 election, don't you? Or do you think it was Ukraine?

I have read the testimony of Glen Simpson and they were up to the same crazy shit that Cambridge Analytica was into. Dirty oppo-research, just like Trump did in Ukraine. If he did it in Ukraine then why doubt that he would collude with Russia? What's good for the goose.

How does the "oranges" of the dossier have anything to do with the validity of its content? A good portion of it has been confirmed, but Steele never claimed that all of it was true. Is it the pee-pee tape that you're fixated on? Only Trump cares about that and you KNOW that Trump was deviant enough to have participated in an illicit sex act. Just ask the owners of the dozens of pussies he grabbed and much more, like Daniels and McDougal.

Face it, your boy is a crook who is probably guilty of at least 90% of what's in the dossier and much much more. As soon as you pry his tax returns out of his tiny hands, you will finally see how deep the Russian rabbit hole goes. The thought of his tax returns being handed over Wed probably gave him a panic attack sending him to the hospital thinking this was the big one.


Lucky for him the Supreme Court blocked them for now.

    We will soon see the Original FISA and the 3 renewals. This will make it obvious to the American Public that a FRAUD was perpetrated on all 4 Courts to attain the warrants. It will also lay bear the repeated Schiff lies regarding his claim that the Steele Dossier was Not being the center piece for the warrants. All the other stuff/noise you are clucking about will wither away when the public sees what happened to American Citizens including the Mass Un-maskings that occurred under Obama. This will be an extended 1-2 Punch. 1 Being the IG Report followed up by 2 = Durham/Barr with the KO Blow. Then comes the marachino cherry on top = Trump being re-elected. Enjoy the pointless dog-n-pony show that Schiff is currently foisting. The Dem's within weeks will be staring straight into a growing tsunami.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 19, 2019, 01:07:55 AM
    When do we get to the point where you flat-out call me a "Russian Agent"? This would be funny if Not for your previous good work. You are suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome. Get Help

Fourth time you ignored my question, but here I am again, giving you the courtesy of replying.

Trump is an authoritarian. He lavishes compliments at Xi of China, Putin of Russia, Erdogan of Turkey, Duterte of the Phillipines, even as he unceasingly attacks Obama, Merkel, the longest serving head of a European Union state, Teresa May of the U.K., Justin Trudeau of Canada, and against NATO and the European Union. May's UK successor, so far unelected directly by the voters, is a notorious liar and is praised by Trump. Are you unashamed enough to actually claim Trump has been fairer to Obama, Biden, or late Sen. McCain than he has been to Putin?

Why, for example, has Trump been preoccupied with attempting to reinstall Putin's Russia in the G-7, making it again the G-8, considering Russia has sunk to the 20th largest economy and has done nothing to address the reason the G-7 countries unanimously removed Russia in response to the forcible annexation of Crimea and use of Russian force to invade and occupy eastern Ukraine?
Quote
Trump privately clashed with G7 leaders over reinviting Putin ...
https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/27/politics/donald-trump-g7-vladimir-putin-fight/index.html
Aug 27, 2019 - A sharp and sometimes bitter disagreement broke out between President Donald Trump and several G7 leaders over whether to allow Russia ...

Quote
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/24/donald-trump-ukraine-military-aid-1509070
Trump changes story on withholding Ukraine aid
The president confirmed that he froze the military assistance before reportedly pressing the country’s leader to investigate his political rival.

By QUINT FORGEY 09/24/2019 10:38 AM EDT Updated 09/24/2019 05:02 PM EDT
..Trump’s latest remarks are at odds with his assertion Monday that he denied the assistance because he feared bureaucratic corruption within Ukraine’s government. ...
..“But my complaint has always been, and I'd withhold again, and I'll continue to withhold until such time as Europe and other nations contribute to Ukraine,” he continued. “Because they're not doing it. Just the United States. We're putting up the bulk of the money. And I'm asking, why is that?”...
...The president, who has long grumbled about U.S. expenditures toward international alliances, appeared to reprise that line of reasoning later Tuesday. Trump said he had vented his frustrations to several Cabinet officials, and singled out France and Germany as countries that should commit greater resources to Ukraine's protection.

Quote
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/sep/25/donald-trump/donald-trump-said-european-nations-have-not-put-mo/
Donald Trump said European nations have not put money into Ukraine. They have put in a lot
By Jon Greenberg on Wednesday, September 25th, 2019 at 1:23 p.m.

.....The package includes over 2 billion euros in grants, 49 million euros to monitor the truce in Eastern Ukraine, and a 3.5 billion euros loan package to develop and restore the county’s banking, agriculture and transportation systems.

Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development data shows that in 2016-2017, the European Union provided $425 million in development aid, with the United States spending $204 million, Germany $189 million and Japan $180 million.

"The Europeans did a whole lot more than the United States in terms of actual cash put into the Ukrainian budget," said Samuel Charap, a Ukraine analyst with RAND, a nonprofit research organization.

In contrast, the United States has done the heavy lifting on military aid.

In the past five years, Security Assistance Monitor, a nonprofit group, has tracked nearly $1.5 billion in defense aid to Ukraine.
He lies incessantly about holding up military aid to Ukraine authorized by congress (falsely claiming he was objecting to E.U. countries not paying their fair share of Ukraine aid.), breaking the law requiring timely notification to congress of the hold he ordered on Ukraine aid, and broke the law again by Trump and Barr interfering with timely notification by the intel IG to congress of the whistleblower complaint.

    We will soon see the Original FISA and the 3 renewals. This will make it obvious to the American Public that a FRAUD was perpetrated on all 4 Courts to attain the warrants. It will also lay bear the repeated Schiff lies regarding his claim that the Steele Dossier was Not being the center piece for the warrants. All the other stuff/noise you are clucking about will wither away when the public sees what happened to American Citizens including the Mass Un-maskings that occurred under Obama. This will be an extended 1-2 Punch. 1 Being the IG Report followed up by 2 = Durham/Barr with the KO Blow. Then comes the marachino cherry on top = Trump being re-elected. Enjoy the pointless dog-n-pony show that Schiff is currently foisting. The Dem's within weeks will be staring straight into a growing tsunami.
Please share another source, (preferably not rooted in Nunes or Hannity propaganda) aside from Carter Page, backing your claim about Page surveillance being misused by FISA to access the Trump campaign. By the logic you've repeated here, is it not just as reasonable to assert Carter Page infiltrated the Trump campaign to shield himself from FBI surveillance....aren't you affirming Page was untouchable simply by attaching himself to that campaign?

Quote
Carter Page denies he was an adviser to Kremlin - CBS News
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/carter-page-denies-he-was-an-adviser-to-kremlin/
Jul 23, 2018 - Former Trump campaign foreign policy adviser Carter Page ridiculed the idea that he was ever an adviser to the Kremlin, Kremlin, even though in 2013 he himself claimed in a letter
https://time.com/5132126/carter-page-russia-2013-letter/
to have served as an informal adviser to the Kremlin, helping its staff prepare for a meeting of world leaders. ...
Quote
https://time.com/5132126/carter-page-russia-2013-letter/
Carter Page Touted Kremlin Contacts in 2013 Letter
BY MASSIMO CALABRESI AND ALANA ABRAMSON FEBRUARY 4, 2018
Former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page bragged that he was an adviser to the Kremlin in a letter obtained by TIME that raises new questions about the extent of Page’s contacts with the Russian government over the years.

The letter, dated Aug. 25, 2013, was sent by Page to an academic press during a dispute over edits to an unpublished manuscript he had submitted for publication, according to an editor who worked with Page.

“Over the past half year, I have had the privilege to serve as an informal advisor to the staff of the Kremlin in preparation for their Presidency of the G-20 Summit next month, where energy issues will be a prominent point on the agenda,” the letter reads.

Page is at the center of a controversial memo from Republican Congressman Devin Nunes, released this week. The Nunes memo claims that in Oct. 2016 the FBI improperly received court permission to spy on Page, whom Trump had named as an adviser to his campaign in March 2016. The Nunes memo says the FBI based its request for eavesdropping permission on information provided by former British spy Christopher Steele while Steele was working for Democrats....
Quote
Carter Page acknowledges working as informal adviser to Russia
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/22/carter-page-acknowledges-working-as-informal-adviser-to-russia-735559
Jul 22, 2018 - Carter Page acknowledges working as informal adviser to Russia ... Former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page on Sunday called ...

Royell, I freely share the primary influence on my opinion, (I sure wish you would, as well...) ironically, it is a well respected expert and critic of FBI FISA abuse, and of domestic surveillance abuse by FBI and NSA. Dr. Marcy Wheeler would be aware of any substance for what you are looking forward to so enthusiatically, but she detects no there, there!

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/10/25/the-durham-probe/
WHAT DURHAM MIGHT BE LOOKING AT
October 25, 2019/..in 2016 Presidential Election, Mueller Probe /by emptywheel

....HOROWITZ ANNOUNCES HE’S STILL WORKING ON THE FISA IG REPORT, WHICH WILL BE LIGHTLY CLASSIFIED
The timing of the Durham investigation becoming a criminal probe coincides with Michael Horowitz’s announcement, to Congress, that he’s still working on the FISA IG Report, but that it will just be lightly redacted. It’s possible, then, that he made a criminal referral out of the report, and Durham is investigating that.

I can’t think of any genuinely criminal behavior that I expect to see in the report, unless Horowitz refers either Glenn Simpson or Christopher Steele for false statements, the former to Congress and the latter in court filings.

If Horowitz’s report is broader than that, however, it might include other referred conduct, such as the leak of either the existence of a transcript between Mike Flynn and Sergei Kislyak (which Sidney Powell has alternately claim came from someone at Office of Net Assessment or James Clapper, the latter of whom is an Original Classification Authority) or that Jim Comey briefed Trump on the Steele dossier (a reference in Powell’s latest suggests she thinks Josh Campbell is the source).

Clearly, Durham is examining several circumstances of how Stzok opened the investigation, such as that (because they wanted to act quickly in the wake of the publication of the WikiLeaks emails) he opened it on a weekend, and signed the authorization himself. Recent reports say he has expanded his scope to include events that preceded Mueller’s appointment, meaning he’s clearly looking at events in early 2017...
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 19, 2019, 01:16:48 AM
Fourth time you ignored my question, but here I am again, giving you the courtesy of replying.

Trump is an authoritarian. He lavishes compliments at Xi of China, Putin of Russia, Erdogan of Turkey, Duterte of the Phillipines, even as he unceasingly attacks Obama, Merkel, the longest serving head of a European Union state, Teresa May of the U.K., Justin Trudeau of Canada, and against NATO and the European Union. May's UK successor, so far unelected directly by the voters, is a notorious liar and is praised by Trump. Are you unashamed enough to actually claim Trump has been fairer to Obama, Biden, or late Sen. McCain than he has been to Putin?

Why, for example, has Trump been preoccupied with attempting to reinstall Putin's Russia in the G-7, making it again the G-8, considering Russia has sunk to the 20th largest economy and has done nothing to address the reason the G-7 countries unanimously removed Russia in response to the forcible annexation of Crimea and use of Russian force to invade and occupy eastern Ukraine?
He lies incessantly about holding up military aid to Ukraine authorized by congress (falsely claiming he was objecting to E.U. countries not paying their fair share of Ukraine aid.), breaking the law requiring timely notification to congress of the hold he ordered on Ukraine aid, and broke the law again by Trump and Barr interfering with timely notification by the intel IG to congress of the whistleblower complaint.

Please share another source, (preferably not rooted in Nunes or Hannity propaganda) aside from Carter Page, backing your claim about Page surveillance being misused by FISA to access the Trump campaign. By the logic you've repeated here, is it not just as reasonable to assert Carter Page infiltrated the Trump campaign to shield himself from FBI surveillance....aren't you affirming Page was untouchable simply by attaching himself to that campaign?

      Just hold your water until this begins unfolding shortly.  IG Report followed by Durham/Barr will conclusively answer you FISA questions and have you going Frosty The Snowman with a melt down that will easily eclipse what we are currently watching you go through. Your claiming that I am plugged into the Kremlin reveals your tortured state of mind.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 19, 2019, 01:26:36 AM
      Just hold your water until this begins unfolding shortly.  IG Report followed by Durham/Barr will conclusively answer you FISA questions and have you going Frosty The Snowman with a melt down that will easily eclipse what we are currently watching you go through. Your claiming that I am plugged into the Kremlin reveals your tortured state of mind.

Royell,

Something tangentially connected but much bigger has been unfolding -- for sixty years, ever since the newly created "KGB within the KGB" -- Department 14 of the Second Chief Directorate (today's FSB) -- dispatched GRU Colonel Dimitri Polyakov back to the U.N. in New York City to "volunteer" to spy for the FBI and the CIA and thereby compliment already established (since the early 1920s with highly successful Operation Trust and Sindikat-2, etc) "active measures counterintelligence operations" with Sun Tzu-like "strategic deception counterintelligence operations".

D'oh

Oh yeah, and ever since 1984 when Donald Trump started laundering money for the Russian Mafia.

--  MWT  ;)

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 19, 2019, 01:39:23 AM
      Just hold your water until this begins unfolding shortly.  IG Report followed by Durham/Barr will conclusively answer you FISA questions and have you going Frosty The Snowman with a melt down that will easily eclipse what we are currently watching you go through. Your claiming that I am plugged into the Kremlin reveals your tortured state of mind.

I can't justify continuing. A fifth time you avoid answering my question, when do you believe Trump was first aware there was an accusation he participated in 2013 in a Moscow hotel room, in hookers urinating on a bed, influenced by a claim Obama once slept on that bed?

You say, twice now, I've nearly or actually accused you of being a Russian agent. I've simply pointed out to you you are reposting claims of Carter Page, a liar and known to support the Kremlin, and I've asked you, primarily because non-Trump supporting news media, i.e., MSM does not emphasize or even report on what you seem so certain is going to happen. Again, will you provide links to your sources that are of less slanted "quality" than "Barr spew" presented on sites like Fox News or Conservative Tree House, or Daily Caller by Chuck Ross? If not, I'm done here because "Trump speak hope" is no substitute for reasonable sharing of facts.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 19, 2019, 01:46:38 AM
Royell,

Something tangentially connected but much bigger has been unfolding -- for sixty years, ever since the newly created "KGB within the KGB" -- Department 14 of the Second Chief Directorate (today's FSB) -- dispatched GRU Colonel Dimitri Polyakov back to the U.N. in New York City to "volunteer" to spy for the FBI and the CIA and thereby compliment already established (since the early 1920s with highly successful Operation Trust and Sindikat-2, etc) "active measures counterintelligence operations" with Sun Tzu-like "strategic deception counterintelligence operations".

D'oh

Oh yeah, and ever since 1984 when Donald Trump started laundering money for the Russian Mafia.

--  MWT  ;)

          The above is further proof of Trump Derangement Syndrome. A few weeks back I watched that nut Lawrence O'Donnell over on MSNBC claim he had Trump Loans that were co-signed by Russian Oligarchs. Of course NONE of this was Ever brought forth, but obviously with some of You it sticks. Please get some help.   
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 19, 2019, 01:49:43 AM
OMG, Royell, open your eyes. You do not seem to grasp you are reposting Kremlin talking points.

You ignore my question, I respond to yours.

    Bump as to being accused of being in-line with the Ruskies. Crazy
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 19, 2019, 02:18:05 AM
          The above is further proof of Trump Derangement Syndrome. A few weeks back I watched that nut Lawrence O'Donnell over on MSNBC claim he had Trump Loans that were co-signed by Russian Oligarchs. Of course NONE of this was Ever brought forth, but obviously with some of You it sticks. Please get some help.

Royell,

What kind of help do you recommend?

--  MWT  ;)

PS  By the way, have you read this article in the conservative New Republic yet?

https://newrepublic-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/newrepublic.com/amp/article/143586/trumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15741299342753&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fnewrepublic.com%2Farticle%2F143586%2Ftrumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 19, 2019, 02:22:27 AM
    Bump as to being accused of being in-line with the Ruskies. Crazy

Royell, is this your first day on the internet, or in the U.S., or on this planet? I fully articulated my well supported argument.
Do not feign shock and repeat your straw man deflection. This is not about me. As I already posted, it is well established!

Quote
'All roads lead to Putin': Pelosi questions Trump’s loyalty in White House clash
https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/pelosi-recalls-clash-with-trump-says-she-was-probably-telling-him-that-all-roads-lead-to-putin/2019/10/17/fdbde8d2-f0f2-11e9-8693-f487e46784aa_story.html
Oct 17, 2019
Pelosi: 'All roads seem to lead to Putin with the president' ... spent years signaling his desire to forge ...

Pelosi explains what she was saying to Trump in viral photo ...
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/466304-pelosi-explains-what-she-was-saying-to-trump-in-viral-photo-all-roads-lead-to
Oct 17, 2019 - House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) ... previous day: "At that moment, I was probably saying, 'All roads lead to Put. ... Pelosi has long speculated about the possible link between Trump and the Russian president, Vladimir ...

Quote
Quote
Russia offers Maria Butina job with human rights commission ...
Russia offers Maria Butina job with human rights commission ...
https://www.foxnews.com/world/russian-maria-butina-job-in-human-rights-commission

5 hours ago - Maria Butina, who was deported to Russia last month after being ... Maria Butina has been offered a job in Russia's Human Rights Commission. ... And for you all trying to equivocate this cheating with 'part of the game' : Yea ...

Paul Erickson, Russian Agent Maria Butina's Boyfriend ...
https://www.thedailybeast.com/paul-erickson-russian-agent-maria-butinas-boyfriend-pleads-guilty-to-fraud
2 hours ago - Paul Erickson, the former boyfriend of convicted Russian agent Maria Butina, has pleaded guilty to wire fraud and money laundering, according ...An attorney for Erickson did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

The case against Erickson, a well-known conservative operative who shuttled between Washington D.C. and South Dakota, was separate from the one lodged against Butina in Washington, D.C.

Butina, a Russian national who cultivated relationships with powerful American conservative activists including Erickson, pleaded guilty to conspiring to violate laws prohibiting covert foreign agents. As part of her agreement she has promised to cooperate with American law enforcement. She was deported earlier this year after serving a short prison sentence to her native Russia where she received a hero’s welcome.

Quote
https://www.thedailybeast.com/paul-erickson-russian-agent-maria-butinas-boyfriend-pleads-guilty-to-fraud
Paul Erickson, Russian Agent Maria Butina’s Boyfriend, Pleads Guilty to Fraud
Erickson admits he conned someone called only “D.G.” into wiring him $100,000, under the pretense that the money was for a real estate investment in North Dakota. It was not.

Betsy Swan
Political Reporter Erin Banco National Security Reporter
Updated Nov. 18, 2019 6:52PM ET / Published Nov. 18, 2019 6:06PM ET
In a two-page statement detailing the factual basis for the plea, Erickson said he conned someone only identified as “D.G.” into wiring him $100,000 under the pretense that the money was for a real estate investment in North Dakota. As part of the plea filed in U.S. district court in South Dakota, Erickson admits the money was not for a real estate deal. He also notes that he wired $1,000 of the money to a person called “M.B.”

Quote
Quote
War crimes reversal: Trump issues pardons, despite Pentagon ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/11/15/trump-issues-pardons-war-crimes-cases-despite-pentagon-opposition-move/
3 days ago - Trump issues pardons in war crimes cases, despite Pentagon ... for ordering his soldiers to open fire on three men in Afghanistan. Golsteyn and Lorance received full pardons, while the president will direct the Navy to restore ...

White House and Pentagon prepare for Trump to issue ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/11/14/white-house-pentagon-prepare-trump-issue-pardons-war-crimes-cases-officials-say/
4 days ago - White House and Pentagon prepare for Trump to issue pardons in war-crimes ... the president intervening could undermine good order and discipline, ... Trump might announce his decision during a “Keep America Great” rally ...

Trump grants clemency to troops in three controversial war criminals...
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2019/11/16/trump-grants-clemency-to-troops-in-three-controversial-war-crimes-cases/
3 days ago - President Donald Trump on Friday granted clemency to three controversial .... Pentagon leaders privately had expressed reservations about the moves, but ... The Uniform Code of Military Justice ensures good order and discipline ... letter” in a crude attempt to keep pro-Gallagher witnesses from testifying; ...
Inside the Founding Fathers’ Debate Over What Constituted an Impeachable Offense
If not for three sparring Virginia delegates, Congress’s power to remove a president would be even more limited than it already is
By Erick Trickey
SMITHSONIAN.COM   OCTOBER 2, 2017
1.5K105065.2K
The Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia was winding down, the draft of the United States’ supreme law almost finished, and George Mason, the author of Virginia’s Declaration of Rights, was becoming alarmed. Over the course of the convention, the 61-year-old had come to fear the powerful new government his colleagues were creating. Mason thought the president could become a tyrant as oppressive as George III.

So on September 8, 1787, he rose to ask his fellow delegates a question of historic importance. Why, Mason asked, were treason and bribery the only grounds in the draft Constitution for impeaching the president? Treason, he warned, wouldn’t include “attempts to subvert the Constitution.”
 

After a sharp back-and-forth with fellow Virginian James Madison, Mason came up with another category of impeachable offenses: “other high crimes and misdemeanors.” Americans have debated the meaning of this decidedly open-ended phrase ever since. But its inclusion, as well as the guidance the Founders left regarding its interpretation, offers more protection against a dangerous executive power than many realize.

Of all the Founders who debated impeachment, three Virginians—Mason, Madison and delegate Edmund Randolph—did the most to set down a vision of when Congress should remove a president from office. Though the men had very different positions on the Constitution, their debates in Philadelphia and at Virginia’s ratifying convention in Richmond produced crucial definitions of an impeachable offense. And their ultimate agreement—that a president should be impeached for abuses of power that subvert the Constitution, the integrity of government, or the rule of law—remains essential to the debates we’re having today, 230 years later.

The three men took on leading roles at the Constitutional Convention almost as soon as it convened on May 25, 1787. In the first week, Randolph, the 33-year-old Virginia governor, introduced the Virginia Plan, written by Madison, which became the starting point for the new national government. Mason, one of Virginia’s richest planters and a major framer of his home state’s new constitution, was the first delegate to argue that the government needed a check on the executive’s power. “Some mode of displacing an unfit magistrate” was necessary, he argued on June 2, without “making the Executive the mere creature of the Legislature.” After a short debate, the convention agreed to the language proposed in the Virginia Plan: the executive would “be removable on impeachment and conviction of malpractice or neglect of duty” – a broad standard that the delegates would later rewrite.

Mason, Madison, and Randolph all spoke up to defend impeachment on July 20, after Charles Pinckney of South Carolina and Gouverneur Morris of Pennsylvania moved to strike it. “[If the president] should be re-elected, that will be sufficient proof of his innocence,” Morris argued. “[Impeachment] will render the Executive dependent on those who are to impeach.”

“Shall any man be above justice?” Mason asked. “Shall that man be above it who can commit the most extensive injustice?” A presidential candidate might bribe the electors to gain the presidency, Mason suggested. “Shall the man who has practiced corruption, and by that means procured his appointment in the first instance, be suffered to escape punishment by repeating his guilt?”

Madison argued that the Constitution needed a provision “for defending the community against the incapacity, negligence, or perfidy of the Chief Magistrate.” Waiting to vote him out of office in a general election wasn’t good enough. “He might pervert his administration into a scheme of peculation”— embezzlement—“or oppression,” Madison warned. “He might betray his trust to foreign powers.”

Randolph agreed on both these fronts. “The Executive will have great opportunities of abusing his power,” he warned, “particularly in time of war, when the military force, and in some respects the public money, will be in his hands.”
The delegates voted, 8 states to 2, to make the executive removable by impeachment.

The Virginia delegates borrowed their model for impeachment from the British Parliament. For 400 years, English lawmakers had used impeachment to exercise some control over the king’s ministers. Often, Parliament invoked it to check abuses of power, including improprieties and attempts to subvert the state. The House of Commons’ 1640 articles of impeachment against Thomas Wentworth, Earl of Strafford, alleged “that he... hath traiterously endeavored to subvert the Fundamental Laws and Government of the Realms... and in stead thereof, to introduce Arbitrary and Tyrannical Government against Law.” (The House of Lords convicted Strafford, who was hanged in 1641.)

The U.S. Constitution lays out a process that imitated Britain’s: The House of Representatives impeaches, as the House of Commons did, while the Senate tries and removes the official, as the House of Lords did. But unlike in Britain, where impeachment was a matter of criminal law that could lead to a prison sentence, the Virginia Plan proposed that the impeachment process lead only to the president’s removal from office and disqualification from holding future office. After removal, the Constitution says, the president can still be indicted and put on trial in regular courts.

Still, by September, the delegates hadn’t resolved impeachment’s toughest question: What exactly was an impeachable offense? On September 4, the Committee on Postponed Matters, named to resolve the convention’s thorniest disputes, had replaced the “malpractice or neglect of duty” standard for impeachment with a much narrower one: “treason and bribery.”

Limiting impeachment to treason and bribery cases, Mason warned on September 8, “will not reach many great and dangerous offences.” To make his case, he pointed to an impeachment taking place in Great Britain at the time—that of Warren Hastings, the Governor-General of India.

Hastings had been impeached in May 1787, the same month the U.S. constitutional convention opened. The House of Commons charged Hastings with a mix of criminal offenses and non-criminal offenses, including confiscating land and provoking a revolt in parts of India. Hastings’ trial by the House of Lords was pending while the American delegates were debating in Philadelphia. Mason argued to his fellow delegates that Hastings was accused of abuses of power, not treason, and that the Constitution needed to guard against a president who might commit misdeeds like those alleged against Hastings. (In the end, The House of Lords acquitted Hastings in 1795.)

Mason, fearful of an unchecked, out-of-control president, proposed adding “maladministration” as a third cause for impeaching the president. Such a charge was already grounds for impeachment in six states, including Virginia.

But on this point, Madison objected. The scholarly Princeton graduate, a generation younger than Mason at age 36, saw a threat to the balance of powers he’d helped devise. “So vague a term will be equivalent to a tenure during pleasure of the Senate,” he argued. In other words, Madison feared the Senate would use the word “maladministration” as an excuse to remove the president whenever it wanted.

So Mason offered a substitute: “other high crimes and misdemeanors against the State.” The English Parliament had included a similarly worded phrase in its articles of impeachment since 1450. This compromise satisfied Madison and most of the other Convention delegates. They approved Mason’s amendment without further debate, 8 states to 3, but added “against the United States,” to avoid ambiguity.

Unfortunately for everyone who’s argued since about what an impeachable offense is, the convention’s Committee on Style and Revision, which was supposed to improve the draft Constitution’s language without changing its meaning, deleted the phrase “against the United States.” Without that phrase, which explained what constitutes “high crimes,” many Americans came to believe that “high crimes” literally meant only crimes identified in criminal law.

Historians debate whether the Founders got the balance on impeachment just right or settled for a vague standard that’s often too weak to stop an imperial president. Consider the 1868 impeachment of President Andrew Johnson, who escaped removal from office by one vote in the Senate. John F. Kennedy, in his 1955 book Profiles In Courage, celebrated Senator Edmund Ross’ swing vote for Johnson’s acquittal. Kennedy, echoing Madison’s fears of a Senate overthrowing presidents for political reasons, declared that Ross “may well have preserved for ourselves and posterity Constitutional government in the United States.”

But Johnson spent most of his presidency undermining Reconstruction laws that Congress passed, over his vetoes, to protect the rights and safety of black Southerners. “To a large degree, the failure of Reconstruction could be blamed alone on President Johnson’s abuse of his discretionary powers,” Michael Les Benedict wrote in his 1973 book, The Impeachment and Trial of Andrew Johnson. Yet the House rejected a broad attempt to impeach Johnson for abuse of power in 1867, because many congressmen felt a president had to commit a crime to be impeached. Instead, Johnson was impeached in 1868 for firing Secretary of War Edwin Stanton in violation of the Tenure of Office Act. That law was arguably unconstitutional – a factor that contributed to the Senate’s decision to acquit.

The 1974 House Judiciary Committee put the British example favored by Mason to use during Nixon’s Watergate scandal. “High crimes and misdemeanors,” the committee’s staff report argued, originally referred to “damage to the state in such forms as misapplication of funds, abuse of official power, neglect of duty, encroachment on Parliament’s prerogatives, corruption, and betrayal of trust,” allegations that “were not necessarily limited to common law or statutory derelictions or crimes.”

The committee approved three articles of impeachment against Nixon on these grounds, charging him with obstructing justice and subverting constitutional government. The full House never voted on impeachment, but the proposed articles helped force the president’s resignation two weeks later.

When Madison, Mason, and Randolph reunited in Richmond in June 1788 for Virginia’s convention to ratify the Constitution, they continued their debate on the question of impeachable offenses. By then each man had taken a different position on the Constitution. Madison had emerged as its main architect and champion, and Mason as a leading opponent who declared “it would end either in monarchy, or a tyrannical aristocracy.” Randolph, meanwhile, had voted against the Constitution in Philadelphia in September 1787, but swung his vote to yes in 1788 after eight other states had ratified it. Their disagreement illuminates the discussion over presidential powers in the modern era.

When Mason argued that “the great powers of Europe, as France and Great Britain,” might corrupt the president, Randolph replied that it would be an impeachable offense for the president to violate the Constitution’s emoluments clause by taking payments from a foreign power. Randolph was establishing that violations of the Constitution would constitute high crimes and misdemeanors – and so would betraying the U.S. to a foreign government.



And in an argument with Madison, Mason warned that a president could use the pardon power to stop an inquiry into possible crimes in his own administration. “He may frequently pardon crimes which were advised by himself,” Mason argued. “If he has the power of granting pardons before indictment, or conviction, may he not stop inquiry and prevent detection?”

Impeachment, Madison responded, could impose the necessary check to a president’s abuse of the pardon power. “If the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person,” Madison stated, “and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him.”


Read more: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/inside-founding-fathers-debate-over-what-constituted-impeachable-offense-180965083/#3A0G280YDehSAm5m.99
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https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/12/politics/john-roberts-census-citizenship-supreme-court/index.html
Exclusive: How John Roberts killed the census citizenship question
Joan Biskupic, CNN Digital Expansion 2018
By Joan Biskupic, CNN legal analyst & Supreme  Court biographer
Updated 1:33 PM ET, Thu September 12, 2019
...For the most part, Roberts' opinion in the census case
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/27/politics/read-supreme-court-ruling-2020-census-citizenship-case/index.html
 laid out why Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross had significant latitude to add a new question. He was joined by his four conservative brethren on that point. But then the chief justice swerved, and joined by the four liberal justices, said Ross' justification for the citizenship question, tied to enforcing the Voting Rights Act, was contrived.
After the justices heard arguments in late April, Roberts was ready to rule for Ross and the administration. But sometime in the weeks that followed, sources said, Roberts began to waver. He began to believe that Ross' rationale for the citizenship question had been invented, and that, despite the deference he would normally give an executive branch official, Ross' claim had to matter in the court's final judgment, which Roberts announced on June 27
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/27/politics/census-supreme-court/index.html ....
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 19, 2019, 02:27:33 AM
Royell, is this your first day on the internet, or in the U.S., or on this planet? I fully articulated my well supported argument.
Do not feign shock and repeat your straw man deflection. This is not about me. As I already posted, it is well established!

Paul Erickson, Russian Agent Maria Butina's Boyfriend ...
https://www.thedailybeast.com/paul-erickson-russian-agent-maria-butinas-boyfriend-pleads-guilty-to-fraud
2 hours ago - Paul Erickson, the former boyfriend of convicted Russian agent Maria Butina, has pleaded guilty to wire fraud and money laundering, according ...An attorney for Erickson did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

The case against Erickson, a well-known conservative operative who shuttled between Washington D.C. and South Dakota, was separate from the one lodged against Butina in Washington, D.C.

Butina, a Russian national who cultivated relationships with powerful American conservative activists including Erickson, pleaded guilty to conspiring to violate laws prohibiting covert foreign agents. As part of her agreement she has promised to cooperate with American law enforcement. She was deported earlier this year after serving a short prison sentence to her native Russia where she received a hero’s welcome.

Inside the Founding Fathers’ Debate Over What Constituted an Impeachable Offense
If not for three sparring Virginia delegates, Congress’s power to remove a president would be even more limited than it already is
By Erick Trickey
SMITHSONIAN.COM   OCTOBER 2, 2017
1.5K105065.2K
The Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia was winding down, the draft of the United States’ supreme law almost finished, and George Mason, the author of Virginia’s Declaration of Rights, was becoming alarmed. Over the course of the convention, the 61-year-old had come to fear the powerful new government his colleagues were creating. Mason thought the president could become a tyrant as oppressive as George III.

So on September 8, 1787, he rose to ask his fellow delegates a question of historic importance. Why, Mason asked, were treason and bribery the only grounds in the draft Constitution for impeaching the president? Treason, he warned, wouldn’t include “attempts to subvert the Constitution.”
 

After a sharp back-and-forth with fellow Virginian James Madison, Mason came up with another category of impeachable offenses: “other high crimes and misdemeanors.” Americans have debated the meaning of this decidedly open-ended phrase ever since. But its inclusion, as well as the guidance the Founders left regarding its interpretation, offers more protection against a dangerous executive power than many realize.

Of all the Founders who debated impeachment, three Virginians—Mason, Madison and delegate Edmund Randolph—did the most to set down a vision of when Congress should remove a president from office. Though the men had very different positions on the Constitution, their debates in Philadelphia and at Virginia’s ratifying convention in Richmond produced crucial definitions of an impeachable offense. And their ultimate agreement—that a president should be impeached for abuses of power that subvert the Constitution, the integrity of government, or the rule of law—remains essential to the debates we’re having today, 230 years later.

The three men took on leading roles at the Constitutional Convention almost as soon as it convened on May 25, 1787. In the first week, Randolph, the 33-year-old Virginia governor, introduced the Virginia Plan, written by Madison, which became the starting point for the new national government. Mason, one of Virginia’s richest planters and a major framer of his home state’s new constitution, was the first delegate to argue that the government needed a check on the executive’s power. “Some mode of displacing an unfit magistrate” was necessary, he argued on June 2, without “making the Executive the mere creature of the Legislature.” After a short debate, the convention agreed to the language proposed in the Virginia Plan: the executive would “be removable on impeachment and conviction of malpractice or neglect of duty” – a broad standard that the delegates would later rewrite.

Mason, Madison, and Randolph all spoke up to defend impeachment on July 20, after Charles Pinckney of South Carolina and Gouverneur Morris of Pennsylvania moved to strike it. “[If the president] should be re-elected, that will be sufficient proof of his innocence,” Morris argued. “[Impeachment] will render the Executive dependent on those who are to impeach.”

“Shall any man be above justice?” Mason asked. “Shall that man be above it who can commit the most extensive injustice?” A presidential candidate might bribe the electors to gain the presidency, Mason suggested. “Shall the man who has practiced corruption, and by that means procured his appointment in the first instance, be suffered to escape punishment by repeating his guilt?”

Madison argued that the Constitution needed a provision “for defending the community against the incapacity, negligence, or perfidy of the Chief Magistrate.” Waiting to vote him out of office in a general election wasn’t good enough. “He might pervert his administration into a scheme of peculation”— embezzlement—“or oppression,” Madison warned. “He might betray his trust to foreign powers.”

Randolph agreed on both these fronts. “The Executive will have great opportunities of abusing his power,” he warned, “particularly in time of war, when the military force, and in some respects the public money, will be in his hands.” The delegates voted, 8 states to 2, to make the executive removable by impeachment.

The Virginia delegates borrowed their model for impeachment from the British Parliament. For 400 years, English lawmakers had used impeachment to exercise some control over the king’s ministers. Often, Parliament invoked it to check abuses of power, including improprieties and attempts to subvert the state. The House of Commons’ 1640 articles of impeachment against Thomas Wentworth, Earl of Strafford, alleged “that he... hath traiterously endeavored to subvert the Fundamental Laws and Government of the Realms... and in stead thereof, to introduce Arbitrary and Tyrannical Government against Law.” (The House of Lords convicted Strafford, who was hanged in 1641.)

The U.S. Constitution lays out a process that imitated Britain’s: The House of Representatives impeaches, as the House of Commons did, while the Senate tries and removes the official, as the House of Lords did. But unlike in Britain, where impeachment was a matter of criminal law that could lead to a prison sentence, the Virginia Plan proposed that the impeachment process lead only to the president’s removal from office and disqualification from holding future office. After removal, the Constitution says, the president can still be indicted and put on trial in regular courts.

Still, by September, the delegates hadn’t resolved impeachment’s toughest question: What exactly was an impeachable offense? On September 4, the Committee on Postponed Matters, named to resolve the convention’s thorniest disputes, had replaced the “malpractice or neglect of duty” standard for impeachment with a much narrower one: “treason and bribery.”

Limiting impeachment to treason and bribery cases, Mason warned on September 8, “will not reach many great and dangerous offences.” To make his case, he pointed to an impeachment taking place in Great Britain at the time—that of Warren Hastings, the Governor-General of India.

Hastings had been impeached in May 1787, the same month the U.S. constitutional convention opened. The House of Commons charged Hastings with a mix of criminal offenses and non-criminal offenses, including confiscating land and provoking a revolt in parts of India. Hastings’ trial by the House of Lords was pending while the American delegates were debating in Philadelphia. Mason argued to his fellow delegates that Hastings was accused of abuses of power, not treason, and that the Constitution needed to guard against a president who might commit misdeeds like those alleged against Hastings. (In the end, The House of Lords acquitted Hastings in 1795.)

Mason, fearful of an unchecked, out-of-control president, proposed adding “maladministration” as a third cause for impeaching the president. Such a charge was already grounds for impeachment in six states, including Virginia.

But on this point, Madison objected. The scholarly Princeton graduate, a generation younger than Mason at age 36, saw a threat to the balance of powers he’d helped devise. “So vague a term will be equivalent to a tenure during pleasure of the Senate,” he argued. In other words, Madison feared the Senate would use the word “maladministration” as an excuse to remove the president whenever it wanted.

So Mason offered a substitute: “other high crimes and misdemeanors against the State.” The English Parliament had included a similarly worded phrase in its articles of impeachment since 1450. This compromise satisfied Madison and most of the other Convention delegates. They approved Mason’s amendment without further debate, 8 states to 3, but added “against the United States,” to avoid ambiguity.

Unfortunately for everyone who’s argued since about what an impeachable offense is, the convention’s Committee on Style and Revision, which was supposed to improve the draft Constitution’s language without changing its meaning, deleted the phrase “against the United States.” Without that phrase, which explained what constitutes “high crimes,” many Americans came to believe that “high crimes” literally meant only crimes identified in criminal law.

Historians debate whether the Founders got the balance on impeachment just right or settled for a vague standard that’s often too weak to stop an imperial president. Consider the 1868 impeachment of President Andrew Johnson, who escaped removal from office by one vote in the Senate. John F. Kennedy, in his 1955 book Profiles In Courage, celebrated Senator Edmund Ross’ swing vote for Johnson’s acquittal. Kennedy, echoing Madison’s fears of a Senate overthrowing presidents for political reasons, declared that Ross “may well have preserved for ourselves and posterity Constitutional government in the United States.”

But Johnson spent most of his presidency undermining Reconstruction laws that Congress passed, over his vetoes, to protect the rights and safety of black Southerners. “To a large degree, the failure of Reconstruction could be blamed alone on President Johnson’s abuse of his discretionary powers,” Michael Les Benedict wrote in his 1973 book, The Impeachment and Trial of Andrew Johnson. Yet the House rejected a broad attempt to impeach Johnson for abuse of power in 1867, because many congressmen felt a president had to commit a crime to be impeached. Instead, Johnson was impeached in 1868 for firing Secretary of War Edwin Stanton in violation of the Tenure of Office Act. That law was arguably unconstitutional – a factor that contributed to the Senate’s decision to acquit.

The 1974 House Judiciary Committee put the British example favored by Mason to use during Nixon’s Watergate scandal. “High crimes and misdemeanors,” the committee’s staff report argued, originally referred to “damage to the state in such forms as misapplication of funds, abuse of official power, neglect of duty, encroachment on Parliament’s prerogatives, corruption, and betrayal of trust,” allegations that “were not necessarily limited to common law or statutory derelictions or crimes.”

The committee approved three articles of impeachment against Nixon on these grounds, charging him with obstructing justice and subverting constitutional government. The full House never voted on impeachment, but the proposed articles helped force the president’s resignation two weeks later.

When Madison, Mason, and Randolph reunited in Richmond in June 1788 for Virginia’s convention to ratify the Constitution, they continued their debate on the question of impeachable offenses. By then each man had taken a different position on the Constitution. Madison had emerged as its main architect and champion, and Mason as a leading opponent who declared “it would end either in monarchy, or a tyrannical aristocracy.” Randolph, meanwhile, had voted against the Constitution in Philadelphia in September 1787, but swung his vote to yes in 1788 after eight other states had ratified it. Their disagreement illuminates the discussion over presidential powers in the modern era.

When Mason argued that “the great powers of Europe, as France and Great Britain,” might corrupt the president, Randolph replied that it would be an impeachable offense for the president to violate the Constitution’s emoluments clause by taking payments from a foreign power. Randolph was establishing that violations of the Constitution would constitute high crimes and misdemeanors – and so would betraying the U.S. to a foreign government.



And in an argument with Madison, Mason warned that a president could use the pardon power to stop an inquiry into possible crimes in his own administration. “He may frequently pardon crimes which were advised by himself,” Mason argued. “If he has the power of granting pardons before indictment, or conviction, may he not stop inquiry and prevent detection?”

Impeachment, Madison responded, could impose the necessary check to a president’s abuse of the pardon power. “If the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person,” Madison stated, “and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him.”


Read more: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/inside-founding-fathers-debate-over-what-constituted-impeachable-offense-180965083/#3A0G280YDehSAm5m.99

Tom,

The problem is, your posts are, generally speaking, so long, tacked-together and meandering all over the place that very few people bother to read them. I certainly don't.

I thought you'd have figured that out by now.

(Sorry, old boy.)

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 19, 2019, 02:55:14 AM
Tom,

The problem is, your posts are, generally speaking, so long, tacked-together, and meandering all over the place that very few people bother to read them. I certainly don't.

I thought you'd have figured that out by now.

(Sorry, old boy.)

--  MWT  ;)

Thanks. Tom. i really do not anticipate anyone who posts here reading or appreciating my posts, aside from former Leo Damore researcher, Mark O'Blazeny. The details I post are enduring, (unless there is another forum data loss), and comprise an archive I know where to find when I wish to revisit an issue and use it to support later arguments.

Consider what passes here for activity.... 50 plus page threads of what Alan, Doyle-Yates, larrytrotter.jpg convince themselves they spot in images. What is the actual point of debating, ad infinitum, what time Tippit was shot, or pronounced dead?
My threads usually receive no replies. I attempt to leave nothing to argue over because I endeavor to thoroughly support everything I post.

BTW, in a rational two rival part system, Pence would not have an opportunity to pardon Trump, both would be headed for orange jump suits....

New witnesses will emerge from this new reporting....
Quote
Ukraine's president felt pressure from Trump even before July ...
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ukraines-president-felt-pressure-from-trump-even-before-july-phone-call-2019-11-18
4 hours ago - U.S. State Department officials were informed that Ukrainian President ... Marie Yovanovitch, were told Zelenskiy was seeking advice on how to ...
...State Department officials in Kyiv and Washington were briefed on Zelenskiy’s concerns at least three times, the two sources said. Notes summarizing his worries were circulated within the department, they said.

The briefings and the notes show that U.S. officials knew early that Zelenskiy was feeling pressure to investigate Biden, even though the Ukrainian leader later denied it in a joint news conference with Trump in September.

Congressional Republicans have pointed to that public Zelenskiy statement to argue that he felt no pressure to open an investigation, and therefore the Democrats’ allegations that led to the impeachment hearings are misplaced....

Quote
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-marine-one-departure-76/
Remarks by President Trump Before Marine One Departure
Issued on: November 8, 2019

...Q    One more point: Gordon Sondland said that at — Gordon Sondland said, at the beginning of September, he presumed there was a quid pro quo.  Then there was a telephone call to you on September the 9th.  Had he ever talked to you prior to that telephone call about what you wanted in Ukraine?

THE PRESIDENT:  Let me just tell you, I hardly know the gentleman. But this is the man who said there was no quid pro quo, and he still says that —

Q    He said that he presumed there was....

Just released testimony of David Holmes, on page 25.:
https://www.npr.org/2019/11/18/780621852/read-state-department-official-david-holmes-impeachment-inquiry-testimony
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpSondlandHolmesTestimonyPg25.jpg)
On Page 54:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpSondlandHolmesTestimonyPg54.jpg)
Quote
Pence aide's testimony renews focus on VP's Ukraine role ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com › world › national-security › 2019/11/18
2 hours ago - A public appearance by an aide to Mike Pence before the House Intelligence Committee this week is drawing renewed attention to the vice ...Williams’ closed-door testimony contradicted Pence aides who insisted the vice president canceled a planned trip to Ukraine for Zelenskiy’s inauguration in May because of logistical difficulties. Williams said under oath that a colleague had told her the trip was called off because Trump no longer wanted Pence to attend after initially pushing for him go, confirming previous reporting by The Associated Press....

Trump assails Pence aide who testified in impeachment probe ...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-impeachment-attack/trump-assails-pence-aide-who-testified-in-impeachment-probe-idUSKBN1XR0TC
1 day ago - U.S. President Donald Trump lashed out on Sunday at another witness in Congress’ impeachment inquiry against him, saying the aide to Vice President Mike Pence was a “Never Trumper” who should “work out a better presidential attack.” ... Williams, who was listening to the call ...

Trump attacks Pence aide as "Never Trumper" after ... - Axios
https://www.axios.com/trump-pence-aide-williams-ukraine-testimony-tweet-4c70b88c-c438-45f0-b9f4-e7ede2623913.html
1 day ago - In a tweet on Sunday, President Trump attacked Jennifer Williams, an aide to Vice President Mike Pence, for her closed-door testimony in the ...
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 19, 2019, 02:59:32 AM
And exactly what relevance does your post have to do with my observations?

Another phylosophical point might be...for all the ForeverTrumpists. Why is the USA concerned about other countries influencing their elections when historically they clearly have no issue with the reverse?

You're right, I should have realized your observations are based on absolutely nothing
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 19, 2019, 03:00:19 AM
Odd that Jerry and Royell are arguing for less information, less transparency, less accountability from the Trump admin, on of all places, a JFK Assassination conspiracy and cover up discussion forum!.
Where did I "argue"?
Everybody....Mr Scully just made that up. I have always suspected that he was a snowflake and now I am convinced.
You see ...I am not a Republican. I am an Independent. I am also --not a conspiracy theorist....I just don't believe the Warren Report. 
I sincerely hope that this liberal agenda falls apart because it seems like such a radically dangerous direction.
Do we really want globalization? Because that is where it is all headed. The old saying--"Be careful what you wish for"
Everybody seems to be worried about Russia :-\
Is Russia such a military threat to the United States? Take a look at the Russian navy...they have one aircraft carrier. ONE! --and even it is presently  out of commission.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 19, 2019, 03:29:22 AM
Where did I "argue"?
Everybody....Mr Scully just made that up. I have always suspected that he was a snowflake and now I am convinced.
You see ...I am not a Republican. I am an Independent. I am also --not a conspiracy theorist....I just don't believe the Warren Report. 
I sincerely hope that this liberal agenda falls apart because it seems like such a radically dangerous direction.
Do we really want globalization? Because that is where it is all headed. The old saying--"Be careful what you wish for"
Everybody seems to be worried about Russia :-\
Is Russia such a military threat to the United States? Take a look at the Russian navy...they have one aircraft carrier. ONE! --and even it is presently  out of commission.

Jerry,

You need to read Sun Tzu's The Art of War.

A Soviet strategist did, back in the late 1950s, ergo the formation in 1959 of the "KGB within the KGB" -- Department D in the First Chief Directorate (today's SVR) and Department 14 in the Second Chief Directorate (today's FSB).

Bottom line: The ultimate goal is to win without fighting.

Which, imho, the Russians did with Donald Trump's being "elected" in 2016.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 19, 2019, 03:44:53 AM
Where did I "argue"?
Everybody....Mr Scully just made that up. I have always suspected that he was a snowflake and now I am convinced.
You see ...I am not a Republican. I am an Independent. I am also --not a conspiracy theorist....I just don't believe the Warren Report. 
I sincerely hope that this liberal agenda falls apart because it seems like such a radically dangerous direction.
Do we really want globalization? Because that is where it is all headed. The old saying--"Be careful what you wish for"
Everybody seems to be worried about Russia :-\
Is Russia such a military threat to the United States? Take a look at the Russian navy...they have one aircraft carrier. ONE! --and even it is presently  out of commission.

"Liberal agenda"? LOL ! You post winger memes and cut n' pastes lifted from townhall-dot-com. Jerry, Russia is the only country in Europe in the post WWII era to seize, occupy, and steal quite a chunk of territory of a neighboring country.
Putin has jailed and or killed all political and journalist opposition. He ordered an attack on our 2016 election and is believed to have a major role in Brexit destablization of the E.U. He held 24 Ukrainian sailors prisonsers and their two vessels illegally for nearly a year, but here you are, offering an "RT quality" apologist argument in favor of Putin's Russia.

Ballots or Bullets, Jerry? How do you plan to salvage a vibrant middle class corrupted by unprecedented wealth concentration and the political power it has and will continue to purchase?
(http://jfkforum.com/images/FederalReserve2016SCFWealthDecileChart.jpg)

Quote
State Dept. Inquiry Into Clinton Emails Finds No Deliberate Mishandling of Classified Information
The report appears to bookend a controversy that dogged Mrs. Clinton’s 2016 presidential campaign.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/us/politics/state-dept-inquiry-clinton-emails.html
Oct 18, 2019 - WASHINGTON — A years long State Department investigation into former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's private email server found that ...
https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=6552626-Holmes-Final-Version-Redacted
David Holmes Nov. 16, 2019 Page 52:
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpSondlandHolmesTestimonyPg52.jpg)

Quote
Opinion | The Honest People Donald Trump Cannot Fathom ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/16/opinion/sunday/trump-impeachment-hearings.html
2 days ago - By Elizabeth Drew. Ms. Drew is a journalist ... Mr. Trump cannot fathom such people, because they're not interested in big money or fame.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 19, 2019, 03:53:46 AM
Jerry,

You need to read Sun Tzu's The Art of War.

A Soviet strategist did, back in the late 1950s, ergo the formation in 1959 of the "KGB within the KGB" -- Department D in the First Chief Directorate (today's SVR) and Department 14 in the Second Chief Directorate (today's FSB).

Bottom line: The ultimate goal is to win without fighting.

--  MWT  ;)

Fabian Socialists-your buddies
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 19, 2019, 04:02:40 AM
    We will soon see the Original FISA and the 3 renewals. This will make it obvious to the American Public that a FRAUD was perpetrated on all 4 Courts to attain the warrants. It will also lay bear the repeated Schiff lies regarding his claim that the Steele Dossier was Not being the center piece for the warrants. All the other stuff/noise you are clucking about will wither away when the public sees what happened to American Citizens including the Mass Un-maskings that occurred under Obama. This will be an extended 1-2 Punch. 1 Being the IG Report followed up by 2 = Durham/Barr with the KO Blow. Then comes the marachino cherry on top = Trump being re-elected. Enjoy the pointless dog-n-pony show that Schiff is currently foisting. The Dem's within weeks will be staring straight into a growing tsunami.

You don't like to ans questions or face reality much, do you? Don't worry the orange koolaid will wear off after the GOP finally snap out of their spell and realize what f**king morons they've been to get grifted by a TV reality show host with zero experience or knowledge re foreign affairs, no idea how to govern or delegate, never learns a goddamned thing about anything, never researches anything, doesn't trust anyone smarter than him (too easy), never apologizes or admits when he is wrong, lies like a cheap watch even when the truth is his friend, and basically doesn't know how to be a President and never wanted to be one in the 1st place. Are you telling me that Trump was the best the GOP could come up with? Holy crap that's sad.  :(

Your oblivious denial of the dear leader's many indiscretions makes me wonder if you would rather be a Russian than an American if you aren't one already?

ETA: Royell, where are you getting all this Alex Jones conspiracy nonsense?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 19, 2019, 04:23:14 AM
Fabian Socialists-your buddies

What the Hell are you talking about, you little twerp, you?

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Peter Kleinschmidt on November 19, 2019, 04:28:47 AM
You don't like to ans questions or face reality much, do you? Don't worry the orange koolaid will wear off after the GOP finally snap out of their spell and realize what f**king morons they've been to get grifted by a TV reality show host with zero experience or knowledge re foreign affairs, no idea how to govern or delegate, never learns a goddamned thing about anything, never researches anything, doesn't trust anyone smarter than him (too easy), never apologizes or admits when he is wrong, lies like a cheap watch even when the truth is his friend, and basically doesn't know how to be a President and never wanted to be one in the 1st place. Are you telling me that Trump was the best the GOP could come up with? Holy crap that's sad.  :(

Your oblivious denial of the dear leader's many indiscretions makes me wonder if you would rather be a Russian than an American if you aren't one already?

ETA: Royell, where are you getting all this Alex Jones conspiracy nonsense?
What are you trying to say? Sounds like you hate the fact that Trump is the President? What is it like to be angry every day?
You only have around 1500 more days of President Trump ha ha ha ha ha
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 19, 2019, 04:41:38 AM
What are you trying to say? Sounds like you hate the fact that Trump is the President? What is it like to be angry every day?
You only have around 1500 more days of President Trump ha ha ha ha ha

Nah, I hate Trump supporters who kiss his taint. They're the ones that keep him in office, otherwise, Trump's just an autistic buffoon who has convinced his low IQ minions that he is a stable genius. Go figure.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 19, 2019, 05:03:15 AM
  You post winger memes and cut n' pastes lifted from townhall-dot-com.
I posted some cartoons from Townhall like this one...(https://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gv111819dAPR20191118014509.jpg)

Showing that all this money for all these investigations that are looking for a crime is just going down the toilet and whose money is it? Yours and mine.
Since the Democraps have taken the House in congress...what have they accomplished?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 19, 2019, 06:00:13 AM
I posted some cartoons from Townhall like this one...(https://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gv111819dAPR20191118014509.jpg)

Showing that all this money for all these investigations that are looking for a crime is just going down the toilet and whose money is it? Yours and mine.
Since the Democraps have taken the House in congress...what have they accomplished?

Jerry,

That's wishful thinking on your incredibly ignorant part.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 19, 2019, 08:21:36 AM
Jerry's concern over costs of removal of Putin's "stink bomb," Trump & Co. is touching to read but selective and resembles many Trump wing talking points, especially as they are being posted by a self professed, political "independent" who coincidentally exhibits favorable opinions of Trump, Tulsi Gabbard, (both "presidential material," really, Jerry?) and, of Putin's Russia.

As in all other instances, Trumpers transfer blame from Trump to those opposing his lawlessness, dishonesty, and malignant self-dealing, contrary to the oath he took to protect and preserve the Constitution on January 20, 2017.

How on earth does such upside down, Trump party propaganda possibly square with reality and the law?

Trump party tax policy legislation and deregulation not only failed to stimulate corporate investment in the U.S., the impact on the federal deficit is comparable to a farmer eating the seed corn and having nothing left during an inevitable economic downturn, since taxes were dramatically lowered already, at the top of a historically long economic cycle.

A reality check. Isn't it actually Trump and his supporters who have orchestrated the costly mess, in the first place, Americans and their children are now facing? Did they not support politically a grifter associated with 3,500 lawsuits who lied during his campaign about his Trump University legal exposure, paying a $25 million payment, in January, 2017, to remove the plaintiff class (from his back) he had ripped off?:
Quote
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/01/donald-trump-lawsuits-legal-battles/84995854/
Exclusive: Trump's 3,500 lawsuits unprecedented for a presidential nominee
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/01/donald-trump-lawsuits-legal-battles/84995854/
Jun 1, 2016 - An exclusive USA TODAY analysis of legal filings across the United States finds that the presumptive Republican presidential nominee and his businesses have been involved in at least 3,500 legal actions in federal and state courts during the past three decades. They range from ...

Quote
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/09/feds-bank-battle-over-manaforts-assets-042176
LEGAL
Feds, bank battle over Manafort’s assets
By JOSH GERSTEIN

10/09/2019 06:34 AM EDT
The Justice Department and a Chicago bank are still fighting over former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort’s real estate and cash, more than a year after he pleaded guilty in the investigation headed by Special Counsel Robert Mueller.
.....
While Justice Department attorneys say they need more information to resolve the bank’s claims, they also say they plan to ask the judge soon to approve the sale of both the Long Island and Brooklyn properties even as the legal fight with the bank continues. The bank says it will oppose such a sale.

Most of Manafort’s other properties and accounts were formally transferred to the feds in May.

The jury at Manafort’s trial in Alexandria, Virginia, last August could not reach a unanimous verdict on the four bank fraud charges related to the loans he took out during the Trump campaign and transition from the closely held, veteran-focused Chicago bank. A verdict sheet shows jurors split, 11-1, on those charges. Manafort was convicted there on eight other felony counts.

As part of the plea deal struck with prosecutors a few months later, Manafort acknowledged his guilt on all the charges he faced.

The annual federal deficit was, and was predicted in 2016 to continue to decline before his supporters managed to unleash Trump against our country!

Is this what those grousing about the costs of forcing Trump conformance to the law really believe "winning" looks like?
https://treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/search?startMonth=10&startDay=30&startYear=2017&endMonth=09&endDay=30&endYear=2017
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DebtObama093016.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DebtObama092917.jpg)

By the end of the eighth Obama admin. budget year, the annual budgrt deficit had declined to $672 billion.

Quote
Federal Budget Deficit Swelled to Nearly $1 Trillion in 2019 ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/17/us/politics/republicans-trump-impeachment.html
Oct 25, 2019 - It did not hit $1 trillion in fiscal 2019, which ended Sept. 30, but that was largely the result of Mr. Trump's tariffs on trading partners like China, ... In the year through September, the pace of government spending has grown twice ...

Quote
Trump’s corporate tax cuts fail to boost investment, IMF analysis finds
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-08-08/trump-corporate-tax-cuts-fail-to-boost-investment-imf-finds
Aug 8, 2019 - The law passed by Republicans in 2017 cut the corporate tax rate to 21% from 35% and moved toward a “territorial system” under which companies pay the U.S. banner rate on domestic profits only. The law included a minimum tax so corporations operating in low- or no-tax countries still pay some tax on their earnings.

Quote
Why Amazon paid no federal income tax - CNBC.com
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/03/why-amazon-paid-no-federal-income-tax.html
Apr 4, 2019 - In 2018, Amazon paid $0 in U.S. federal income tax on more than $11 billion in profits before taxes. It also received a $129 million tax rebate from the federal government. Amazon’s low tax bill mainly stemmed from the Republican tax cuts of 2017, carryforward losses from years ...

Quote
FedEx CEO asks New York Times publisher to debate after ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/11/18/fedex-ceo-challenges-new-york-times-publisher-debate-after-tax-investigation/
19 hours ago - CEO Fred Smith did not point to any specific errors in the report, which said the shipping giant's tax bill went from $1.5 billion in 2017 to zero in 2018 after President Trump's tax cuts slashed FedEx's effective tax rate from 34 percent to less than zero.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on November 19, 2019, 10:41:04 AM
You're right, I should have realized your observations are based on absolutely nothing

(https://i.ibb.co/9h4xR2b/0-E864792-A11-C-4-B17-9376-ECCAC9698-D33.png)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 19, 2019, 01:06:28 PM
Jerry, That's wishful thinking on your incredibly ignorant part.
Tommy...You make things about as clear as...well whatever's in the toilet.
Quote
Since the Democraps have taken the House in congress...what have they accomplished?
Still waiting for the answer. 25 words or less...no song and dance/copy and paste this time please.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 19, 2019, 04:48:03 PM
You don't like to ans questions or face reality much, do you? Don't worry the orange koolaid will wear off after the GOP finally snap out of their spell and realize what f**king morons they've been to get grifted by a TV reality show host with zero experience or knowledge re foreign affairs, no idea how to govern or delegate, never learns a goddamned thing about anything, never researches anything, doesn't trust anyone smarter than him (too easy), never apologizes or admits when he is wrong, lies like a cheap watch even when the truth is his friend, and basically doesn't know how to be a President and never wanted to be one in the 1st place. Are you telling me that Trump was the best the GOP could come up with? Holy crap that's sad.  :(

Your oblivious denial of the dear leader's many indiscretions makes me wonder if you would rather be a Russian than an American if you aren't one already?

ETA: Royell, where are you getting all this Alex Jones conspiracy nonsense?

        This Russia stuff is pure hysteria.  Trump Derangement Syndrome is spreading like wildfire on this Forum.   
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 19, 2019, 06:11:55 PM
I posted some cartoons from Townhall like this one...(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/Maralago.jpg)

Showing that all this money for all these investigations that are looking for a crime is just going down the toilet and whose money is it? Yours and mine.
Since the Democraps have taken the House in congress...what have they accomplished?

Trump has spent over $100 million in taxpayer money on his hundreds of days at his own golf resorts.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 19, 2019, 06:44:05 PM
        This Russia stuff is pure hysteria.  Trump Derangement Syndrome is spreading like wildfire on this Forum.   

Only a Putin troll calls all this Russian stuff pure hysteria. Royell, say it isn't so.  :o

Or is TDS your fall back response whenever you can't defend the indefensible or answer a single question to support your position?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on November 19, 2019, 08:19:12 PM
Trump has spent over $100 million in taxpayer money on his hundreds of days at his own golf resorts.

                                                                            https://trumpgolfcount.com/     ;D
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 19, 2019, 10:06:19 PM
Only a Putin troll calls all this Russian stuff pure hysteria. Royell, say it isn't so.  :o

Or is TDS your fall back response whenever you can't defend the indefensible or answer a single question to support your position?

    That makes 2 of You that have Now called me a Russian Agent/Putin Troll. Do you guys have any idea how Kooky you have become in only 3 years of the Trump Presidency? What will You become when he gets re-elected. Certifiable?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 19, 2019, 10:52:42 PM
 Thumb1:
    That makes 2 of You that have Now called me a Russian Agent/Putin Troll. Do you guys have any idea how Kooky you have become in only 3 years of the Trump Presidency? What will You become when he gets re-elected. Certifiable?

Royell,

If it makes you feel any better, I think you're probably just an incredibly ignorant "useful idiot".

But don't feel bad, on November 8, 2016 there were 63 million other people in the U.S. just like you

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 19, 2019, 11:19:55 PM
Thumb1:
Royell,

If it makes you feel any better, I think you're probably just an incredibly ignorant "useful idiot".

But don't feel bad, on November 8, 2016 there were 63 million other people in the U.S. just like you

--  MWT  ;)

      Your attitude is Exactly why Hillary Lost. You don't get your way and those on the winning side are then deemed "useful idiots" or "irredeemable deplorables". You Never learn as 2020 will show once again.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 19, 2019, 11:33:35 PM
Thumb1:
Royell,

If it makes you feel any better, I think you're probably just an incredibly ignorant "useful idiot".

But don't feel bad, on November 8, 2016 there were 63 million other people in the U.S. just like you

--  MWT  ;)

Tommy, I am posting this to emphasize the condition Trump has lied his supporters into. He has instructed them only to believe what he tells them, as ludicrous as that seems to the rest of us.

The attacks on Brennan & Comey are a lie, a former reality TV performer crying crocodile tears in an effort to herd Fox News viewers to be motivated to vote a second time to finish the mission to deliver the U.S. into an alliance with Putin as OPEN national policy, even if they still do not understand that is what their votes are being used to accomplish.

.....
Royell, Trump ACTS as if he was unaware of the most embarrassing Steele dossier details until Comey briefed him.
You ignored the question I asked, puzzling if you sincerely want to be informed of the actual facts. Unsurprisingly, neither you or Jerry Freeman, in your replies, asked for a link to the June, 2019 testimony of Hope Hicks I posted page images from.

Royell, I assume you are not going to respond to the question, what details do you believe Trump was actually aware of and when was he aware of them before Comey briefed Trump about the claims of hookers in Trump's Moscow hotel room in 2013?

Trump is a television performer spewing crocodile tears, falsely blaming his scapegoats for learning (and not leaking) what he was already well aware of. Unlike Trump, Comey and Brennan were not the ones leaking about details in the Steele dossier or deliberately misleading the American public.
......
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/22/trump-vengeance-john-brennan-russia-053970
Trump’s quest for vengeance against John Brennan
In Attorney General William Barr’s review of the Russia probe, some see a presidential target.
By NATASHA BERTRAND and DANIEL LIPPMAN
10/22/2019 05:06 AM EDT
.....Since the beginning of his presidency, Trump has also repeatedly attacked Brennan publicly, tweeting about the former CIA director more than two dozen times. He’s questioned Brennan’s mental acuity and called him a liar, a leaker and blamed him for having “detailed knowledge of the (phony) Dossier,” a reference to the raw intelligence reports on Trump’s alleged Russia ties by British former MI-6 officer Christopher Steele. He also tried to unilaterally strip Brennan of his security clearance — a process the White House reportedly never went through with — and urged the House to call him in for questioning.

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpTweetBrennanSteeleHookers.jpg)

Last June, the democratic majority controlled House Intel committee must have asked "Hopey" more precise questions than Mueller's prosecutors had been able to do. Despite my prompting, Royell has exhibited no interest in learning of a link to her entire June, 2019 testimony and has not provided any links to any original or even credible sources to support his own, rigid views. We have to assume, lacking any cooperation from him, that at this point he takes Trump extreme distortion of reality on faith as gospel. Again, I'll certainly post the link to this Hope Hicks testimony I've excerpted (2X now...) upon request.

Hicks testified the Trump campaign actually was aware of the most embarrassing component used by Trump to discredit the Steele Dossier after Comey briefed Trump twelve weeks later, the day after the October 8, 2016 presentation of the sexual predator flavored Hollywood Access tape, whereas Mueller's report could narrow the date down only to the end of October, 2016.
Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/07/19/stormy-pee-tapes-and-pussy-grabbing-the-three-explanations-for-the-cohen-hicks-trump-call-on-october-8-2016/
STORMY, PEE TAPES, AND PUSSY-GRABBING: THE THREE EXPLANATIONS FOR THE COHEN-HICKS-TRUMP CALL ON OCTOBER 8, 2016
July 19, 2019/ ..in 2016 Presidential Election /by emptywheel

...But that testimony is not entirely consistent with something in the Mueller Report, which suggested (based off FBI interviews with both Cohen and Giorgi Rtskhiladze) that the one time Trump would have heard about a pee tape was later in October, after Cohen and Rtskhiladze discussed the tapes via text....

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpHopeHicksTestimonyPg196.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpHopeHicksTestimonyPg197.jpg)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 20, 2019, 12:00:47 AM
        This Russia stuff is pure hysteria.  Trump Derangement Syndrome is spreading like wildfire on this Forum.   

Trump Derangement Syndrome is spreading like wildfire on this Forum.

If that's the case, why do you think that is, Royell?

Could it be those people know something you have yet to learn?

Or do you perhaps consider yourself somehow superior in knowledge than those who do not share your views? 

Just to be clear, I'm not really political minded and don't really have a horse in this race. Any good idea or proposal that comes from either a Republican or a Democrat will get my support. To me this entire farce is rather comical and sad at the same time.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 20, 2019, 01:41:04 AM
Trump Derangement Syndrome is spreading like wildfire on this Forum.

If that's the case, why do you think that is, Royell?

Could it be those people know something you have yet to learn?

Or do you perhaps consider yourself somehow superior in knowledge than those who do not share your views? 

Just to be clear, I'm not really political minded and don't really have a horse in this race. Any good idea or proposal that comes from either a Republican or a Democrat will get my support. To me this entire farce is rather comical and sad at the same time.
 

    Bottom Line is they simply can Not stand losing to a political novice. They had every advantage possible. Outspent Trump by far, Fake New Media in their back pocket, Deep State Machinery, & Experience. What they did Not have was The Forgotten Man & Woman. Now, they are embarrassed and Trump reminds them of what went down at Every opportunity. The BEST is yet to come!   
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 20, 2019, 05:47:58 AM
 

    Bottom Line is they simply can Not stand losing to a political novice. They had every advantage possible. Outspent Trump by far, Fake New Media in their back pocket, Deep State Machinery, & Experience. What they did Not have was The Forgotten Man & Woman. Now, they are embarrassed and Trump reminds them of what went down at Every opportunity. The BEST is yet to come!

Let's roll. (What a Trump dictatorship would look stink like: https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/1196848072929796096 )
+
Quote
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/calls-for-ag-barrs-impeachment-intensify-after-lunatic-authoritarian-federalist-society-speech/
Attorney General Bill Barr launched into an emotional tirade against “the left” at an annual meeting of the conservative Federalist Society on Friday evening. Now, lawyers and legal commentators are intensifying calls for Barr’s impeachment.

Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/federal-prosecutors-set-to-interview-ukrainian-gas-executive-as-part-of-probe-into-giuliani-and-his-associates/2019/11/19/f8d3a600-0b22-11ea-97ac-a7ccc8dd1ebc_story.html
Federal prosecutors to interview Ukrainian gas executive as part of probe into Giuliani and his associates
Rudolph W. Giuliani, one of President Trump’s personal attorneys, is under scrutiny for his ties to two men who have been indicted on federal charges. (Al Drago/Bloomberg News)
By Tom Hamburger and Rosalind S. Helderman
November 19, 2019 at 10:04 p.m. EST

Federal prosecutors scrutinizing President Trump’s personal attorney Rudolph W. Giuliani and two of his associates are to question a top executive of Ukraine’s state-owned gas company Thursday about his encounters with those associates as the pair pursued energy deals in Ukraine this year.

The executive of the Ukrainian company, Andrew Favorov, an American citizen, agreed to meet with prosecutors for the Southern District of New York who had asked to speak with him about his experiences with the two men, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman.

The pair worked with Giuliani to gather information about the Ukraine-related activities of former vice president Joe Biden and his son Hunter.

Favorov’s attorney, Lanny Breuer, said his client “will voluntarily sit down with the government attorneys.” Breuer declined to comment further....

...One person who was briefed by Favorov on the Houston discussions, Dale W. Perry, an American gas executive, said that the pair told Favorov that then-U. S. ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch, was a likely impediment to such a plan.

Yovanovitch testified last week before House lawmakers that she saw Naftogaz’s current chief executive, Andriy Kobolyev, as a reformer fighting widespread corruption in the Ukrainian gas industry.

Parnas and Fruman assured Favorov that Yovanovitch would soon be removed from her post, Perry said.

Weeks later, on May 1, the men met again in Washington, where Fruman and Parnas again pitched a deal with Naftogaz, according to people familiar with Favorov’s account.

After the Washington meeting, Favorov was stunned when Yovanovitch was abruptly recalled from Kyiv, as Parnas and Fruman had predicted, the people said.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on November 20, 2019, 07:07:22 AM
You're right, I should have realized your observations are based on absolutely nothing

Of course I was right, your response to my comments had absolutely nothing to do with them.

Which if any of them would you disagree with?

They are listed below.....

Difference between Watergate and Trumpdump.....

Nixon eventually saw writing on the wall and resigned. Agree or disagree?

Republicans know Trump would never take that decision. Agree or disagree?

Because they realize that, the GOP will defend him to the death. Agree or disagree?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on November 20, 2019, 07:30:54 AM
Let's roll. (What a Trump dictatorship would look stink like: https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/1196848072929796096 )
+

How on earth do you all stand it over on that side of the pond, Tom?  Trump supporters seem like paid MLM 'protectors',  worrying about the money in their pockets more than the principles in their consciences.  Very sad.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 20, 2019, 09:45:47 AM
 

    Bottom Line is they simply can Not stand losing to a political novice. They had every advantage possible. Outspent Trump by far, Fake New Media in their back pocket, Deep State Machinery, & Experience. What they did Not have was The Forgotten Man & Woman. Now, they are embarrassed and Trump reminds them of what went down at Every opportunity. The BEST is yet to come!

Royell, I didn't ask what you are telling yourself.

I was trying to find out why you think you are right and those on this forum who, according to you, suffer from "Trump Derangement Syndrome" (whatever that is) are wrong. Your reply seems to be an emotional one rather than a rational one. Why is that?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 20, 2019, 06:05:27 PM
      Your attitude is Exactly why Hillary Lost. You don't get your way and those on the winning side are then deemed "useful idiots" or "irredeemable deplorables". You Never learn as 2020 will show once again.

Royell,

There's a distinction.

A "useful idiot" is someone who is unwittingly advancing the cause of the 100 year-old Russian mafia organization known generically as the "KGB".

A "deplorable" is a supporter of Donald Trump.

Hmm ...

Come to think of it, they are the same, aren't they?

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 20, 2019, 07:58:22 PM
Trump Derangement Syndrome is spreading like wildfire on this Forum.

If that's the case, why do you think that is, Royell?

Could it be those people know something you have yet to learn?

Or do you perhaps consider yourself somehow superior in knowledge than those who do not share your views? 

Just to be clear, I'm not really political minded and don't really have a horse in this race. Any good idea or proposal that comes from either a Republican or a Democrat will get my support. To me this entire farce is rather comical and sad at the same time.

    Bump regarding your inquiry as to why Trump Derangement Syndrome is spreading around here. Trump to this day is poking the bear. As for Dem "ideas", they have done Nothing with a majority in Congress. They have 1 idea and 1 idea ONLY = Impeach Trump = Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 20, 2019, 08:08:05 PM
Trump could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and he wouldn't lose Royell's support.

Have they impeached the MF yet?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 20, 2019, 08:30:52 PM
    Bump regarding your inquiry as to why Trump Derangement Syndrome is spreading around here. Trump to this day is poking the bear. As for Dem "ideas", they have done Nothing with a majority in Congress. They have 1 idea and 1 idea ONLY = Impeach Trump = Trump Derangement Syndrome.

We ask you 10X, and then another 10X to support (with links informing the rest of us of principal influences motivating you to post your so far, unsupported opinions) the baseless, uninformed, uninformative regurgitations you stain this discussion with, and here you are. Who could possibly be your audience for such empty, Trump-serving distractions?   You're serving us Foxnews FoxNFiends without our having to pay a cable service bill. Thanks for that!
Give us readers a break and go boost Mr. Ford's pointless thread to 100 pages long....

https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/1197248220180733952
(http://jfkforum.com/images/EmptywheelBritHumeVouchesSolominWOfactcheck.jpg)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 20, 2019, 08:42:08 PM
We ask you 10X, and then another 10X to support the baseless, uninformed, uninformative regurgitations you stain this discussion with, and here you are. Who could possibly be your audience for such empty, Trump-serving distractions?   You're serving us Foxnews FoxNFiends without our having to pay a cable service bill. Thanks for that!
Give us readers a break and go boost Mr. Ford's pointless thread to 100 pages long....

https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/1197248220180733952
(http://jfkforum.com/images/EmptywheelBritHumeVouchesSolominWOfactcheck.jpg)

    It's obvious you have absolutely No idea what is going on at Fox News. For a guy that usually researches his positions to a fare-the-well, You are completely embarrassing yourself. There is a shift underway over at Fox but you continue repeating what You are being spoon fed. Totally contrary to your past M.O.  Even further proof of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 20, 2019, 08:50:35 PM
    It's obvious you have absolutely No idea what is going on at Fox News. For a guy that usually researches his positions to a fare-the-well, You are completely embarrassing yourself. There is a shift underway over at Fox but you continue repeating what You are being spoon fed. Totally contrary to your past M.O.  Even further proof of Trump Derangement Syndrome.

Geeze Louise!, five minutes ago, I begged you, for at least the umpteenth time, to share with the rest of us, by you posting links, like I always do, to what you believe is going on at Fox News, or for that matter, anywhere else!

I'll even extend an offer to you. I am proficient at wikipedia edits and would be happy to revise this segment from the wikipedia page on John Solomon (at one time, an award earning journalist) if you also provide links supporting changes to this criticism you believe is unfair / inaccurate. Or, if you're able, post edits there yourself! Start by reading the debate on the Solomon article "talk" page.:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:John_Solomon_(political_commentator) (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=John+Solomon+%28political+commentator&title=Special:Search&fulltext=1&ns1=1)

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Solomon_(political_commentator)
John F. Solomon is an American media executive, and a conservative political commentator......
....While he won a number of prestigious awards for his investigative journalism in the 1990s and 2000s,[4][5] he has also been accused of magnifying small scandals and creating fake controversy.[6][7][8] During Donald Trump's presidency, he has been known for advancing Trump-friendly stories. He played a role in advancing conspiracy theories about wrongdoing involving Joe Biden, his son Hunter Biden and Ukraine; Solomon's stories about the Bidens influenced President Trump to request that the Ukrainian president launch an investigation into 2020 Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden, which led to an impeachment inquiry into President Trump.[2].....
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Martin Weidmann on November 20, 2019, 09:06:53 PM
    Bump regarding your inquiry as to why Trump Derangement Syndrome is spreading around here. Trump to this day is poking the bear. As for Dem "ideas", they have done Nothing with a majority in Congress. They have 1 idea and 1 idea ONLY = Impeach Trump = Trump Derangement Syndrome.

You are still not answering my two questions, Royell. Why is that?

I'm only trying to understand what your own personal reasoning is.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 20, 2019, 09:49:58 PM
Geeze Louise!, five minutes ago, I begged you, for at least the umpteenth time, to share with the rest of us, by you posting links, like I always do, to what you believe is going on at Fox News, or for that matter, anywhere else!

I'll even extend an offer to you. I am proficient at wikipedia edits and would be happy to revise this segment from the wikipedia page on John Solomon (at one time, an award earning journalist) if you also provide links supporting changes to this criticism you believe is unfair / inaccurate. Or, if you're able, post edits there yourself! Start by reading the debate on the Solomon article "talk" page.:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:John_Solomon_(political_commentator) (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=John+Solomon+%28political+commentator&title=Special:Search&fulltext=1&ns1=1)

    So you're incapable of taking the time to View and/or Hear what is going on at Fox News 1st hand? My numerous sources of information include MSNBC and CNN. The least you can do is actually take a look/listen to Fox News in order to reach Your Own conclusion. You might actually stumble into a better informed/well rounded opinion. Your reliance on Wikipedia taints your opinions/positions present and possibly past.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on November 20, 2019, 11:17:38 PM
How on earth do you all stand it over on that side of the pond, Tom?  Trump supporters seem like paid MLM 'protectors',  worrying about the money in their pockets more than the principles in their consciences.  Very sad.

Again..... how can you stand it?  (cruise to rain man in the phone booth)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 21, 2019, 12:26:46 AM
Again..... how can you stand it?  (cruise to rain man in the phone booth)

Mark, it's all fine. Fascism came to America quite some time again.... It's just a bit more bolder and "in our face" now.

We're pretty used to it, by now. Consider the bio of the Butcher of Kent State, a beloved individual!
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Rhodes

.....At a news conference in Kent, Ohio, on Sunday May 3, 1970, the day before the Kent State shootings, he said of campus protesters:

They're worse than the Brownshirts, and the Communist element, and also the Night Riders, and the vigilantes. They're the worst type of people that we harbor in America.[10]

....Legacy
Numerous buildings and sites around the state have been named in Rhodes's honor, including:

The James A. Rhodes State Office Tower – the tallest building in Columbus and the former home of the Ohio Supreme Court
Cleveland State University's Rhodes Tower in Cleveland
The James A. Rhodes Arena (locally nicknamed as "The JAR") at the University of Akron
James A. Rhodes State College in Lima, Ohio.
The Rhodes Center at the Ohio Expo Center and State Fair in Columbus
The James A. Rhodes Appalachian Highway, Ohio State Route 32
The James A. Rhodes Athletic Center, Shawnee State University

Me personally? I was conditioned in junior h.s., witnessing a particularly deadly weekend in late November, 1963, and after
9/11, I moved to the land of cotton where I still can be found. Climate here is more forgiving than the politics, But aren't Trump and this fine fellow, Lloyd Blankfein, sons of NYC? Our state legislature blocks health care financial security to 600,000 and refuses to pass any minimum wage law. Only the federal law, last revised 12 years ago, is enforced.

I attended a state university system college, "up north". Tuition back then for us "in state" students was $50 per semester but
admission was selective and very competitive. I had a friend who attended Yale those same four years and her total, four year tab, including room and board was $24,000. .... $6,000 per year, 45 years ago.

Quote
https://www.collegecalc.org/colleges/connecticut/yale-university/
Yale total costs
....The annual tuition and living expense budget to go to Yale was $71,290 for the 2017/2018 academic year. The cost is the same for all students regardless of Connecticut residence status as there is no in-state discount.

Reagan championed the end of state subsidized, affordable university education.
Quote
Free Speech Rhetoric and Reality: Why Savio, Kerr and ...
https://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/fall-2014-radicals/free-speech-rhetoric-and-reality-why-savio-kerr-and-reagan
Oct 1, 2014 - Free Speech Rhetoric and Reality: Why Savio, Kerr and Reagan Were All “Radicals”
... to the conflict: student leader Mario Savio, UC President Clark Kerr, and ...
Quote
Video: Ronald Reagan's Press Conference After 'Bloody Thursday'
An angry governor shows no patience for his critics following a confrontation between Berkeley students and the National Guard.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/02/video-ronald-reagans-press-conference-after-bloody-thursday/284045/
Feb 24, 2014 - James Rector, who was watching the riot from a rooftop, was shot by police ... At the request of the Berkeley mayor, Governor Ronald Reagan ...

Reagan democrats seemed to love him, and his racist dog whistles.

Quote
Reagan used her, the country hated her. Decades later, the Welfare Queen of Chicago refuses to go away
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/ct-ent-welfare-queen-josh-levin-0610-story.html
Jun 10, 2019 - He referred to Taylor as merely “a woman in Chicago.” But her public-assistance crimes — which Reagan read about in news reports, then ...

Quote
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/19/surging-college-loan-debt-having-disproportionate-impact-on-blacks.html
CNBC
Surging college loan debt is having an especially big impact on African Americans
Student loan debt in total stands at $1.5 trillion, up $20 billion in the third quarter, with 10.9% borrowers in default, or 90 or more days past due ...
1 day ago

Quote
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lloyd-blankfein-elizabeth-warren-tweet-meaning-tribalism/
Billionaire dodges when asked if "tribalism" tweet referred to Elizabeth Warren's heritage
BY STEPHEN GANDEL

NOVEMBER 19, 2019 / 6:14 PM / MONEYWATCH
....He also pushed back on the idea that CEOs are overpaid, blaming low interest rates and technological change for the widening gap between rich and poor in the U.S. Blankfein said income inequality should be addressed, but said it wasn't as big a economic problem as others have made out.

Trumpism's effects on further wealth concentration won't be reflected until the 2019 Fed wealth distribution study is completed.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/FederalReserve2016SCFWealthDecileChart.jpg)

in short, Trump is really nothing new, just louder and more dishonest and selfish.

Quote
Been spendin' most their lives,
livin' in the gangsta's paradise
Been spendin' most their lives,
livin' in the gangsta's paradise…

Quote
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2244185/Inside-Goldman-Sachs-CEO-Lloyd-Blankfeins-32-5-million-Hamptons-estate.html
Inside Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein's new $32.5 million Hamptons estate...bought even though he still hasn't sold his other $14 million Long Island home
By JAMES NYE

PUBLISHED: 14:56 EST, 6 December 2012 | UPDATED: 18:48 EST, 6 December 2012
.....
The Social Security website has maintained this tribute to Senator Huey Long for at least twenty years, recognizing it would not exist if Huey had not shamed FDR into supporting that legislation. If Trump wipes out this website tribute to Huey, it might constitute a canary in the coal mine.:

https://www.ssa.gov/history/longsen.html  and
Quote
https://www.ssa.gov/history/hlong1.html
Huey Long was Governor of Louisiana from 1928 to 1932 and was elected to the U.S. Senate in 1930. A nominal Democrat, Huey Long was a radical populist, of a sort we are unfamiliar with in ... So confident was he that he wrote a book entitled My First Days in the White House in which he named his cabinet (including ...

Royell, I never considered myself an especially good fit for the Fox News themes.... I'm kind of a facts oriented, sort.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 21, 2019, 12:58:27 AM
    So your incapable of taking the time to View and/or Hear what is going on at Fox News 1st hand? My numerous sources of information include MSNBC and CNN. The least you can do is actually take a look/listen to Fox News in order to reach Your Own conclusion. You might actually stumble into a better informed/well rounded opinion. Your reliance on Wikipedia taints your opinions/positions present and possibly past.

Hey, Infowars is no slouch! Jones' crazy-assed CT shit matches up with Trump Whisperer Hannity's any day of the week.

Royell, do you realize how nuts you sound regurgitating Fox News talking points? I was being generous thinking you might be a commie instead of a Fox News/Trump Cultist. Fox News has never been news by anyone's definition and Hannity is up to his eyeballs in all this. Besides, they're all cuckoo for cocoa puffs. You must be watching MSNBC and CNN to keep tabs on the Fake News for your Alt-Fake News talking points, right?

You may be right and Trump gets re-elected. After all, GWB got re-elected so anything is possible. But that's because of this sick game you Fox News GOP are playing. The GOP may be dumb enough to collectively cut their noses off to spite their faces and re-elect an orangutan as their dear leader, but they have to live in the same shit pile as the rest of us. And that's the problem with wrestling with a pig in shit. You get dirty and the pig likes it.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 21, 2019, 01:21:07 AM
Hey, Infowars is no slouch! Jones' crazy-assed CT shit matches up with Trump Whisperer Hannity's any day of the week.

Royell, do you realize how nuts you sound regurgitating Fox News talking points? I was being generous thinking you might be a commie instead of a Fox News/Trump Cultist. Fox News has never been news by anyone's definition and Hannity is up to his eyeballs in all this. Besides, they're all cuckoo for cocoa puffs. You must be watching MSNBC and CNN to keep tabs on the Fake News for your Alt-Fake News talking points, right?

You may be right and Trump gets re-elected. After all, GWB got re-elected so anything is possible. But that's because of this sick game you Fox News GOP are playing. The GOP may be dumb enough to collectively cut their noses off to spite their faces and re-elect an orangutan as their dear leader, but they have to live in the same shit pile as the rest of us. And that's the problem with wrestling with a pig in shit. You get dirty and the pig likes it.

Jack,

Trump's being re-elected in 2020 will only further prove that the Russians won the Cold War, thanks to the likes of Richard Kovich, George Kisevalter, Leonard McCoy, John L. Hart, Bruce Solie and William Colby in the CIA back in the 1960s and 1970s.

With a little help from Mark Lane, Jim Garrison, Oliver Stone, Fox News, and, of course, James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the so-called Education Forum, et al.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 21, 2019, 04:34:24 AM
Hey, Infowars is no slouch! Jones' crazy-assed CT shit matches up with Trump Whisperer Hannity's any day of the week.

Royell, do you realize how nuts you sound regurgitating Fox News talking points? I was being generous thinking you might be a commie instead of a Fox News/Trump Cultist. Fox News has never been news by anyone's definition and Hannity is up to his eyeballs in all this. Besides, they're all cuckoo for cocoa puffs. You must be watching MSNBC and CNN to keep tabs on the Fake News for your Alt-Fake News talking points, right?

You may be right and Trump gets re-elected. After all, GWB got re-elected so anything is possible. But that's because of this sick game you Fox News GOP are playing. The GOP may be dumb enough to collectively cut their noses off to spite their faces and re-elect an orangutan as their dear leader, but they have to live in the same shit pile as the rest of us. And that's the problem with wrestling with a pig in shit. You get dirty and the pig likes it.

    Everything is relative. The radical candidates the Dem's are running out there: (1) Suppresses the general election turnout, and (2) Makes Trump a rational candidate. After all, according to the Dem's the Earth has only 8-10 years left.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 21, 2019, 06:57:55 PM
    Everything is relative. The radical candidates the Dem's are running out there: (1) Suppresses the general election turnout, and (2) Makes Trump a rational candidate. After all, according to the Dem's the Earth has only 8-10 years left.

Dems..Suppresses the general election turnout

Are you serial? Have you ever heard about the GOP "Crosscheck" voter suppression program that won the election for Trump? Look it up for complete details but in a nutshell: The Crosscheck program was a list of 7 million names compiled by the GOP to look for illegal or invalid voters whose name appeared twice on the voter rolls. The rationale to compile such a list was as a means of disenfranchising voters that appeared on the list for any concocted reason the GOP needed to suppress voters.

The GOP theory behind the program was that more black Americans tended to have the same name than whites and would disproportionately show up on the list. Since most black voters tended to vote Dem it was in the GOP's best interest to suppress their votes. However, it was much more insidious than that. With the Crosscheck list, the GOP could indiscriminately call up anyone on the list and ask what their affiliation was and depending on their answers they were scratched off or added to the disenfranchisement list. That my friend is one powerful GOP voter suppression tool, which was taken from a page out of the Russian playbook.

Here's the fallout: Trump won the Blue Wall states by roughly 50,000 votes. The Crosscheck program disenfranchised 1 million voters across the Blue Wall states, most of which were Dems. You do the math.

PS. Are you a stinking climate change denier as well? If so then my kids say F**K YOU and the horse you rode in on!
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 21, 2019, 07:11:39 PM
Royell, since you seem keen on the whole Fusion GPS/Cambridge Analytica connection, perhaps you would like to know how your dear leader and his policies came to be. I don't have the time to spell it out for you but needless to say, this was a scheme of voter profiling that involved Zuckerberg, Bannon, Trump, Miller and Cambridge. They colluded to form Trump's policies and his base of deplorables which he has been riding ever since. Otherwise, Trump has zero ideas of his own, but rest assured he is a stable genius when it comes to crimes and dirty politics.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 21, 2019, 07:24:46 PM
Dems..Suppresses the general election turnout

Are you serial? Have you ever heard about the GOP "Crosscheck" voter suppression program that won the election for Trump? Look it up for complete details but in a nutshell: The Crosscheck program was a list of 7 million names compiled by the GOP to look for illegal or invalid voters whose name appeared twice on the voter rolls. The rationale to compile such a list was as a means of disenfranchising voters that appeared on the list for any concocted reason the GOP needed to suppress voters.

The GOP theory behind the program was that more black Americans tended to have the same name than whites and would disproportionately show up on the list. Since most black voters tended to vote Dem it was in the GOP's best interest to suppress their votes. However, it was much more insidious than that. With the Crosscheck list, the GOP could indiscriminately call up anyone on the list and ask what their affiliation was and depending on their answers they were scratched off or added to the disenfranchisement list. That my friend is one powerful GOP voter suppression tool, which was taken from a page in the Russian playbook.

Here's the fallout: Trump won the Blue Wall states by roughly 50,000 votes. The Crosscheck program disenfranchised 1 million voters across the Blue Wall states, most of which were Dems. You do the math.
.....

Jack, I understand you feel strongly because I am as  perplexed as you seem to be. I've challenged Royell and Jerry to post links to sources supporting their opinions (I can't determine if they've posted facts because they continue to conceal the sources of the specific information they have posted) to the degree I concede it is a waste of time to reply to them here anymore.

Please consider contrasting Royell's method in this thread by including supporting links in all of your posts so the shouting will not be matched, but instead exposed as the insular Trump party propaganda, vs the facts supported conclusions of the reality oriented community.

The architect of the 2016 voter suppression scheme Jack described in his post, coincidentally Kobach was the Trump appointed co-chair, with VP Pence, of the 2017 "vote fraud" investigation discredited because it demanded voter data from all states that was perceived as an attempt to grab more grist for that same voter suppression "mill" anticipated to interfere in future elections.:
(Pompeo is of the same Kansas republican "apparatus". I don't consider it a legitimate political party, considering the facts.)

Quote
N.H. Senators Say Trump Voter Fraud Panel Is Using State Data To Mislead The Public
https://www.wbur.org/news/2017/09/08/new-hampshire-voter-data-fraud
Sep 8, 2017 - N.H. Senators Say Trump Voter Fraud Panel Is Using State Data To Mislead The Public ... Vice President Mike Pence, left, the chair of the Presidential Advisory ... Democrats accused Kobach of misleading the public by using ...

Quote
Kris Kobach's campaign paid white nationalist online poster ...
https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article236355618.html
Oct 17, 2019 - Kansas Republican Kris Kobach's Senate campaign paid an Olathe man who regularly posted hateful comments about Jews and racial ...

Kris Kobach officially begins 2020 Kansas Senate campaign ...
https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article232407992.html
Jul 8, 2019 - “President Trump needs a senator who will lead the charge for him,” Kobach said. ... Kobach’s campaign launch comes less than a year after he lost the 2018 race for governor despite Trump’s full-throated support in a state where Republicans outnumber Democrats 2 to 1. ... Now, he wants to ...

Kris Kobach - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris_Kobach
Jump to Kansas Secretary of State - Kris William Kobach is an American politician who served as the 31st ..... Although Kobach's campaign treasurer, Tom Arpke, possessed campaign experience, losing a state senate race in 2008, ...
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 21, 2019, 09:36:32 PM
    So you're incapable of taking the time to View and/or Hear what is going on at Fox News 1st hand? My numerous sources of information include MSNBC and CNN. The least you can do is actually take a look/listen to Fox News in order to reach Your Own conclusion. You might actually stumble into a better informed/well rounded opinion. Your reliance on Wikipedia taints your opinions/positions present and possibly past.

Faux uses Kremlin talking points from right wing hacks.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 21, 2019, 09:38:11 PM
I posted some cartoons from Townhall like this one...(https://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gv111819dAPR20191118014509.jpg)

Showing that all this money for all these investigations that are looking for a crime is just going down the toilet and whose money is it? Yours and mine.
Since the Democraps have taken the House in congress...what have they accomplished?

They exposed a criminal who's going to be impeached.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 21, 2019, 09:38:56 PM
Dems..Suppresses the general election turnout

Are you serial? Have you ever heard about the GOP "Crosscheck" voter suppression program that won the election for Trump? Look it up for complete details but in a nutshell: The Crosscheck program was a list of 7 million names compiled by the GOP to look for illegal or invalid voters whose name appeared twice on the voter rolls. The rationale to compile such a list was as a means of disenfranchising voters that appeared on the list for any concocted reason the GOP needed to suppress voters.

The GOP theory behind the program was that more black Americans tended to have the same name than whites and would disproportionately show up on the list. Since most black voters tended to vote Dem it was in the GOP's best interest to suppress their votes. However, it was much more insidious than that. With the Crosscheck list, the GOP could indiscriminately call up anyone on the list and ask what their affiliation was and depending on their answers they were scratched off or added to the disenfranchisement list. That my friend is one powerful GOP voter suppression tool, which was taken from a page out of the Russian playbook.

Here's the fallout: Trump won the Blue Wall states by roughly 50,000 votes. The Crosscheck program disenfranchised 1 million voters across the Blue Wall states, most of which were Dems. You do the math.

PS. Are you a stinking climate change denier as well? If so then my kids say F**K YOU and the horse you rode in on!

    Do you seriously believe Young Dem's are going to beat a path to the voting booth to vote for a guy that has problems keeping his Upper Plate in place?  Check back with me in 8-9 years when we All are Still Here and the U.S. Economy continues being the Envy of every nation on Earth.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 21, 2019, 09:40:40 PM
Clear quid pro quo has been established by criminal Benedict Donald but right wingers look the other way.

They only care about fake emails that turned out to be nothing.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Rick Plant on November 21, 2019, 09:44:13 PM
    Do you seriously believe Young Dem's are going to beat a path to the voting booth to vote for a guy that has problems keeping his Upper Plate in place?  Check back with me in 8-9 years when we All are Still Here and the U.S. Economy continues being the Envy of every nation on Earth.

Benedict Donald can't even win red states for Governors he campaigns for. :D

All you have are cheap insults against Biden.

 People want this criminal out of office and will make sure they vote him out if he is not convicted by the Senate.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 21, 2019, 10:06:07 PM
Benedict Donald can't even win red states for Governors he campaigns for. :D

All you have are cheap insults against Biden.

 People want this criminal out of office and will make sure they vote him out if he is not convicted by the Senate.

    I am Not insulting Biden, I am stating a Fact. The guy has issues keeping his upper plate in his mouth. I am hoping he gets the Dem Nomination. He will kill the turnout of Dem's 35 and under. Game Over.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 21, 2019, 10:14:31 PM
Clear quid pro quo has been established by criminal Benedict Donald but right wingers look the other way.

They only care about fake emails that turned out to be nothing.

Make sure you catch Adam Schiff's brilliant wrap-up today
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 22, 2019, 12:51:26 AM
    Do you seriously believe Young Dem's are going to beat a path to the voting booth to vote for a guy that has problems keeping his Upper Plate in place?  Check back with me in 8-9 years when we All are Still Here and the U.S. Economy continues being the Envy of every nation on Earth.

Is that all you got?

Speaking of keeping his upper plate in place..."God blesh the United Shates".


Actually this was a side-effect of coming down from uppers. Your dear leader is a drug addict.

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 22, 2019, 12:52:07 AM
Make sure you catch Adam Schiff's brilliant wrap-up today

   Schiff could Not get out of there fast enough today. He has once again been the Repub's best asset. Everything Schiff touches turns to Gold for Trump.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 22, 2019, 01:58:35 AM
   Schiff could Not get out of there fast enough today. He has once again been the Repub's best asset. Everything Schiff touches turns to Gold for Trump.
Quote
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/19/trump-skewers-media-hospital-visit-071567
Politico
Trump says media panicked Melania into thinking he had a heart attack
The president tried to dismiss rumors about his health after he made an unannounced medical visit to Walter Reed over the weekend.
By CAITLIN OPRYSKO   Updated: 11/19/2019 03:19 PM EST

Your rigid refusal to post any links to what influences your posted opinions is not lost on readers of this thread
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/Rumpelstiltskin.jpg/440px-Rumpelstiltskin.jpg)

"Rumpelstilskin" Storing, history will not be kind to Trump cult spinning, I can promise you (unless Putin wins this epic battle). Today was historic and Schiff's patriotic
words closing this component of the Impeachment Inquiry of Donald J Trump were historic!

From Washington's newspaper of record:
Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/11/21/early-takeaways-fiona-hills-david-holmess-testimony/
The Fix
Analysis
5 takeaways from Fiona Hill’s and David Holmes’s testimony

2. GOP questions backfire

As any lawyer will tell you, you’re not supposed to ask a witness a question if you don’t know how they’ll answer. That happened over and over again with Republicans on Thursday — thanks in large part to two very capable witnesses who weren’t willing to go along with the GOP’s lines of questioning.
The most telling example came when the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, Rep. Devin Nunes (R-Calif.), tried to establish the premise that the “black ledger” Ukraine shared on former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort wasn’t credible.

Holmes declined to grant that premise, though, and seemed to have done his homework:
Quote
NUNES: And the black ledger — is that seen as credible information?
HOLMES: Yes.
NUNES: The black ledger is credible?
HOLMES: Yes.
NUNES: Bob Mueller did not find it credible. Do you dispute what Bob Mueller’s findings were? They didn’t use it in the prosecution or in the report.
HOLMES: I’m not aware that Bob Mueller did not find it credible. I think it was evidence in other criminal proceedings. Its credibility was not questioned in those proceedings. But I’m not an expert on it.
Similarly, Holmes cut in when GOP counsel Stephen Castor asked him about a review that was conducted of how much European allies gave in aid to Ukraine. Castor’s idea was apparently to suggest Trump was concerned about burden-sharing when he withheld the military aid, rather than personal politics.

But Holmes interjected to note that the review happened after — and he emphasized that word — the Ukraine money was held up.

Then he added that the findings were “illuminating”: “The United States has provided combined civilian and military assistance to Ukraine since 2014 of about $3 billion plus … three $1 billion loan guarantees — those get paid back, largely. So just over three-billion dollars. The Europeans, at the level of the European Union plus the member states combined since 2014, my understanding have provided a combined $12 billion to Ukraine.”


The retort was clear: Castor’s argument was pretty nonsensical.

When questioning Hill, Castor tried established some background by asking questions that would usually elicit very brief answers. But she often provided very detailed ones that took things in a very different direction.

One came when Castor seemed to be trying to poke holes in Sondland’s testimony. He asked about disputes between the two of them, and Hill turned it into an answer about how correct Sondland’s testimony was.

“Now I actually realize, having listened to his deposition, that he was absolutely right — that he wasn’t coordinating with us because we weren’t doing the same thing that he was doing,” Hill said.

Fiona Hill's take on Gordon Sondland, annotated

She added: “Because he was being involved in a domestic political errand. And we were being involved in national security, foreign policy. And those two things had just diverged. So he was correct. And I had not put my finger on that at the moment, but I was irritated with him and angry with him that he wasn’t fully coordinating. And I did say to him, Ambassador Sondland — Gordon — I think this is all going to blow up. And here we are.”


It was another big moment for Democrats, brought to you by Republicans on the committee.

3. Hill pushes back on Ukraine conspiracy theories — hard
Pretty much every witness, up to and including Sondland in his blockbuster testimony Wednesday, has been reluctant to craft a narrative or be overly combative with lawmakers.

Hill didn’t appear to have any such reservations.


In her opening statement, she made clear that she would take on the conspiracy theories that Republicans, including those on the committee hearing her testimony, have been pushing about Ukraine’s alleged interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election.

“Based on questions and statements I have heard, some of you on this committee appear to believe that Russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our country — and that perhaps, somehow, for some reason, Ukraine did,” Hill said. “This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves.”

She added: “In the course of this investigation, I would ask that you please not promote politically driven falsehoods that so clearly advance Russian interests.”
.....
The surprise was that Holmes was just as up to the task.

4. Trump tweets at a witness — again
For the second time in six days, Trump tweeted about a witness as the person was testifying.

Two other fascist "bowling pins".:
Quote
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/11/20/20974110/pence-sondland-impeachment-testimony-trump
Sondland says he told Pence about Trump and Ukraine. Pence says that “never happened.”
Pence firmly distanced himself from Ambassador Gordon Sondland’s testimony in a House impeachment hearing on Wednesday.

By Katelyn Burns  Nov 20, 2019, 4:00pm EST....

Quote
https://www.axios.com/netanyahu-indicted-likud-election-corruption-5095ad31-a324-4af8-b23c-d30c3a78b986.html
Axios
Netanyahu's fight for survival: "Witch hunt" claims and a stain on his legacy
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has denounced the corruption indictments leveled against him Thursday as an “attempted coup” ...
1 hour ago
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 22, 2019, 03:38:25 AM

    The ax is beginning to fall. Forged FISA Exposed/Reported this evening. Like I said a couple days ago, IG Report is the Hook to the body and the Durham/Barr Investigation will be the KO Punch. You Schiff followers are following him right off the cliff. Geronimo!
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 22, 2019, 04:03:16 AM
    The ax is beginning to fall. Forged FISA Exposed/Reported this evening. Like I said a couple days ago, IG Report is the Hook to the body and the Durham/Barr Investigation will be the KO Punch. You Schiff followers are following him right off the cliff. Geronimo!

I am quaking in my boots, wetting my britches in fear!

Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/inspector-generals-report-on-fbis-russia-probe-to-be-delivered-dec-9/2019/11/21/6d6d789e-0c70-11ea-8397-a955cd542d00_story.html#comments-wrapper
By  Devlin Barrett and  Matt Zapotosky
November 21, 2019 at 8:52 p.m. EST
The Justice Department inspector general has found evidence that an FBI employee may have altered a document connected to court-approved surveillance of a former Trump campaign adviser, according to people familiar with the matter.

The person under scrutiny has not been identified but is not a high-ranking official — they worked beneath former Deputy Assistant Director Peter Strzok, according to people familiar with the investigation who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss material that has not yet been made public....
Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/11/21/devin-nunes-bills-taxpayers-63000-for-a-jaunt-to-europe-chasing-lev-parnas-disinformation/
DEVIN NUNES BILLED TAXPAYERS $63,000 FOR A JAUNT TO EUROPE CHASING ACCUSED FRAUDSTER LEV PARNAS’ DISINFORMATION
November 21, 2019.... in 2016 Presidential Election, 2020 Presidential Election, Impeachment /by emptywheel
Betsy Woodruff Swan just put the maraschino cherry on the impeachment sundae with this story describing how Lev Parnas served as tour guide for a trip Devin Nunes, failed NSC staffer Derek Harvey, and two other House Intelligence staffers took to Europe last year.
Quote
Lev Parnas, an indicted associate of Rudy Giuliani, helped arrange meetings and calls in Europe for Rep. Devin Nunes in 2018, Parnas’  lawyer Ed MacMahon told The Daily Beast.

Nunes aide Derek Harvey participated in the meetings, the lawyer said, which were arranged to help Nunes’ investigative work. MacMahon didn’t specify what those investigations entailed.

Nunes is the top Republican on the House committee handling the impeachment hearings—hearings where Parnas’s name has repeatedly come up.

Congressional records show Nunes traveled to Europe from Nov. 30 to Dec. 3, 2018. Three of his aides—Harvey, Scott Glabe, and George Pappas—traveled with him, per the records. U.S. government funds paid for the group’s four-day trip, which cost just over $63,000.

The travel came as Nunes, in his role on the House Intelligence Committee, was working to investigate the origins of Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s probe into Russian election meddling.

There’s much that’s crazy about the story: The inclusion of Harvey, a Mike Flynn loyalist who got fired from NSC; the role of Parnas’ lawyer, Ed MacMahon (who seems to be aiming to discomfort as many of the powerful people Parnas interacted with as possible); and the release of this story at the end of a week during which Nunes offered debunked conspiracy after debunked conspiracy in a bid to defend Trump.

But it’s the timing of the trip I find most interesting. While I’m sure Swan has a reason to invoke Nunes’ efforts to undercut Mueller, the trip actually comes long after HPSCI had moved on from trying to confuse about the Russian investigation. The effort had been picked up by a joint House Judiciary/Oversight effort; and even that was largely over by December 2018. Just as interestingly, the trip came after Republicans got shellacked in mid-term elections but before Democrats took over in the House. That is, this seems like a last ditch effort to chase down something that accused fraudster Lev Parnas was dangling in front of easy marks, while Nunes still had unfettered ability to squander taxpayer funds.

Devin Nunes has spent 2.5 years squealing that a respected Russian expert, Christopher Steele, shared information with DOJ with our own experts on organized crime, because that information was paid for by DNC. But he’s now billing taxpayers to chase after disinformation from an obvious grifter.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 22, 2019, 04:12:21 AM

   Only the beginning. You guys following in Lock Step are going to look more-n-more foolish as the Swamp Is Drained. Barr ain't messing around, and it All will be Topped off with Trump getting re-elected.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 22, 2019, 04:36:17 AM
Barr is just another Trump* toady

Schiff's closing remarks boil down the GOP toadies squealing HEARSAY which is simply another word for saying 'we weren't there so it didn't happen': The exact same sentiment repeated here by the CT crowd.

Adam Schiff's wrap-up Nov 21
'They were SILENT!'


*The Groper-In-Chief of the United States
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 22, 2019, 04:51:56 AM
   Only the beginning. You guys following in Lock Step are going to look more-n-more foolish as the Swamp Is Drained. Barr ain't messing around, and it All will be Topped off with Trump getting re-elected.

Quote
They got free speech, tourists, police in trucks
Two men say they're Jesus one of them must be wrong
There's a protest singer singing a protest song - he says
'they want to have a war to keep us on our knees

Rumpelstiltskin, an example from the world I try to live in. An example from your "Federalist" bubble-icious world, dated 15 days later, reporting on the identical topic, follows directly below this.:

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/11/05/emptywheel-fact-check-service-doj-1-1-sidney-powell-0-28/
MPTYWHEEL FACT CHECK SERVICE — DOJ, 1-1 // SIDNEY POWELL, 0-29
November 5, 2019/....in 2016 Presidential Election, Mueller Probe /by emptywheel

The other day, I noted an error in the government surreply to Sidney Powell. The government said Peter Strzok raised a question left in a draft 302. But it appeared — comparing the question with the notes in question — that the question had to come from Joe Pientka, based on DOJ’s representation of whose notes were whose.

Update: I think I found another error. The government says that the only thing interesting in the February 10 redline of the 302 is Strzok indicating he didn’t remember two details — that Flynn said he had no particular affinity for Russia, and that he didn’t remember that Flynn said his government Blackberry wasn’t working in the Dominican Republic.

Contrary to the defendant’s assertion, there were no material changes made after February 10, 2017, to the draft of the January 24 interview report. See Reply at 26. On February 10, 2017, DAD Strzok highlighted two—and only two—sentences where he did not recall a statement that the other interviewing agent included in the draft of the report.

But this must actually be Pientka not remembering these things, because both details show up in Flynn’s notes.

The government just informed Sidney Powell and Emmet Sullivan of the error, which was actually the reverse of what I surmised, that they had the ID on the notes backwards.

Last evening, we received word that our Surreply may have misidentified the authorship of the handwritten notes from the January 24, 2017 interview of your client. Specifically, we were informed that the notes we had identified as Peter Strzok’s, were actually the other agent’s notes (see Surreply, Exhibit 1), and what we had identified as the other agent’s notes were in fact Strzok’s notes (see Surreply, Exhibit 2).

This morning, we asked the FBI to re-examine the electronic records from the January 24 interview, and they confirmed that the government mistakenly identified these notes in its March 13, 2018 discovery letter. Strzok’s notes are those numbered DOJSCO-700021192—DOJSCO700021195; and the other agent’s notes are those numbered DOJSCO-700021196—DOJSCO700021198. We understand that this has caused some confusion, and we regret our error. The government has no other corrections to make about the notes.

I don’t know that I’m the one who gets credit for spotting the error, though I know lawyers in every case I’ve covered closely have followed my own coverage closely (DOJ’s press people have been really uninterested in speaking to me of late, for possibly justifiable reasons, so I didn’t call and ask). But I certainly IDed this as an error, and it got fixed, the second day after the weekend.

So I’m running 1-1 correction rate on the substantive errors I’ve found in the government’s briefs.

Compare that with the errors and misrepresentations I’ve found in Sidney Powell’s briefs in just five months. Among the errors or lies I’ve IDed are:


Falsely claims things don’t show up in the Strzok and Pientka notes that she hides with a sketchy cut and paste job (here, here)
Whether DOJ provided everything considered Brady before Flynn pled guilty a second time (here, here)
How long it took to move Peter Strzok off of Mueller’s team (here)

Why Lisa Page left FBI (here)
Whether Flynn had the Strzok-Page texts before pleading guilty (here)
Claims Strzok texts saying he was concerned about leaks about Trump associates is proof of bias against Trump (here)
Whether Strzok treated Flynn fairly given the record (here)
Egregiously misquotes a Strzok 302 (here)
Ignores that a Lisa Page 302 proves her misquote is wrong (here)
Presents proof that everyone recognized Flynn lied then claims it proves the opposite (here, here
Claims DOJ didn’t notice Flynn about something Comey said that Emmet Sullivan was in the loop on (here)
Misstates the seniority of Bruce Ohr (here)
Whether Bruce Ohr continued to serve as a back channel for Steele intelligence when in fact he was providing evidence to Bill Priestap about its shortcomings (whom the filing also impugns) (here)
Whether the Ohr memos pertain to Flynn; none of the ones released so far have the slightest bit to do with Flynn (here)
Misstates the timing of (and therefore who paid for) Nellie Ohr’s research into Flynn (here)
Whether Andrew Weissmann was in charge of the Flynn prosecution (here)
How many meetings Weissman and Zainab Ahmad had with Ohr — the only known meeting with him took place in fall 2016 — before Flynn committed the crimes he pled guilty to; the meeting likely pertained to Paul Manafort, not Flynn (here)
Includes a complaint from a Flynn associate that pertains to alleged DOD misconduct (under Trump) to suggest DOJ prosecutors are corrupt (here)
Whether a polygraph Flynn passed in 2016 has any import to crimes he committed in 2017 (here)
When Flynn joined the Trump campaign, which if true, means she’s accusing Flynn of lying to the FBI (here)
The import of key details in a timeline (here)
Treats the standard for charging counterintelligence crimes as the standard for opening an investigation into them (here)
Complains that a redaction hiding that there was no FISA order targeting Flynn hides FISA abuse on him (here)
Claims that an order showing problems with FISA 702 — some committed while Flynn was NSA and none used before June 2017 against Trump’s people, after which those abuses were fixed — proved Flynn had been a victim of FISA abuse (here)
Completely misunderstands the FISA 702 memo (here)
Claims the use of EO 12333 collected information — something her client did for 30 years — was against the law (here)
Claims phones that have nothing to do with her client prove her client is innocent (here)
Claims Flynn’s meetings with her on how to blow up his plea deal were actually meetings during which he was cooperating with EDVA’s prosecutors (here)
Claims a letter in which Chuck Grassley demands that Flynn be given exculpatory information is instead a Grassley assertion that DIA material Flynn already received that the govt says is inculpatory is exculpatory (here)
Again, these are not even all the errors I’ve found in Powell’s briefs.

Yet, as far as I know, she has never corrected a single one of these for Emmet Sullivan — she hasn’t even stopped making some of these key false claims.

I’ll grant you that the government’s error is embarrassing. I shouldn’t need to fact check the FBI 18 months after the fact!

But it also happens to undermine several of Powell’s claims. It means Strzok, who was the main interviewer, really did take sketchier notes, as Powell says he would have. It means that Pientka, not Strzok, is the one who took notes so OCD that Powell says he shouldn’t investigate her client — but also means that the Agent she has no gripe with took the more substantive notes. It means that the redline shows Strzok challenging Pientka about material he included that Strzok didn’t remember.

In other words, it undermines yet more of Powell’s conspiracy theories.

And it doesn’t change that both sets of notes and all three 302s back the charges of false statements that Flynn pled guilty to.


Updated to include a 29th false claim of Powell’s because it’s a particularly galling one.

Quote
https://thefederalist.com/2019/11/20/all-eyes-on-judge-in-michael-flynn-case-after-weeks-of-shocking-developments/
..................................................................CORRUPTION
All Eyes On Judge In Michael Flynn Case After Weeks Of Shocking Developments
If federal prosecutors made such a basic blunder concerning key evidence, what other mistakes lay buried in the undisclosed evidence?
By Margot Cleveland   NOVEMBER 20, 2019
After a flurry of court filings and blockbuster developments last month, the Michael Flynn criminal case has been dormant for nearly three weeks. The parties and the public now await word from presiding Judge Emmett Sullivan on the pending motion to compel and motion for sanctions filed by Sidney Powell, the lead attorney who took over Flynn’s case shortly after the special counsel team disbanded.

Powell’s motion seeks to force federal prosecutors to provide Flynn an array of documents withheld from his attorneys and to sanction government lawyers for their failure to provide relevant evidence to the defense team in a timely manner. When and how Judge Sullivan will rule is unclear.

A Flurry of October Surprises
In late October, Judge Sullivan issued a short order canceling a hearing on Flynn’s motions previously scheduled for November 5, 2019, prompting predictions that the long-time federal judge had already made up his mind. This development also triggered a panicked filing by the government complaining that Flynn’s lawyers had raised new issues in their reply brief and cautioning the court not to rule without hearing more from the prosecutors. Sullivan okayed a response by the government and a final rebuttal by Flynn’s attorneys, but added a terse endnote that no more briefing would be had on the issue.

Then, mere days after the final briefing came in, federal prosecutors found themselves forced to admit that for nearly three years, they had wrongly identified the authors of the handwritten notes taken by the FBI agents during their January 24, 2017, interview of then-National Security Advisor Flynn. Prosecutors had told defense counsel (and the court) that the notes written by Peter Strozk had been compiled by FBI Agent Joe Pietka, and those taken by Pietka had been written by Strozk.

This embarrassing mea culpa surely added strength to Powell’s plea for access to other withheld evidence. After all, if federal prosecutors made such a basic blunder concerning key evidence, what other mistakes lay buried in the undisclosed evidence?

Foreshadowing a Motion to Dismiss
While the currently pending motion concerns only the question of access to evidence and sanctions for the never-provided, or the late-provision of, evidence, Powell’s briefing foreshadows the filing of a motion to dismiss the indictment. In her briefing, Powell teases several factual and legal theories supportive of such a motion.

At a minimum, that would also support the withdrawal of Flynn’s guilty plea—something Powell does not appear to be considering at this time—including: Flynn’s original attorneys had a conflict of interest preventing them from representing Flynn in the criminal case; Flynn did not intentionally make false statements to the FBI agents; the FBI agents entrapped Flynn; Flynn’s purported misstatements were immaterial to the investigation into supposed-Russia collusion and thus no crime occurred; the government engaged in selective prosecution and charged Flynn solely because of his relationship to Trump; prosecutors used threats to induce Flynn’s plea; the prosecutors’ failure to timely disclose exculpatory and impeachment evidence invalidates Flynn’s plea; and that egregious prosecutorial and government misconduct mandates dismissal of all charges against Flynn.

The government’s response to the myriad issues Powell raises remains static: Flynn pleaded guilty, so none of these finer points matter. To cement their point, federal prosecutors remind Judge Sullivan in their brief that at Flynn’s December 18, 2018, sentencing hearing, “the court indicated that it needed to ‘first ask Mr. Flynn certain questions to ensure that he entered his guilty plea knowingly, voluntarily, intelligently, and with fulsome and satisfactory advice of counsel.’”

Government attorneys then note that Flynn “was sworn in and answered a series of questions from the Court. For instance, when asked by the Court, the defendant declined to withdraw his plea based on the fact that DAD Strzok was being investigated for misconduct (which the defendant knew before his initial guilty plea).”

The government also stressed that the court had previously questioned Flynn’s defense attorney, asking whether Flynn was “entitled to any additional information that has not been provided to you.” “No, your honor,” his then-attorney responded. “Only after the Court exhaustively questioned the defendant and his counsel about discovery,”
federal prosecutors stressed in their briefing, “did the Court ask the defendant if he would like to proceed to sentencing, ‘ecause you are guilty of this offense,’ to which the defendant responded, ‘Yes, Your Honor.’”


That is all true, and given his detailed exchange with Flynn a year ago, which included an offer to provide the retired general outside counsel for a second opinion, Judge Sullivan may bristle at Powell’s position.
But several developments and revelations since those December 2018 exchanges should arouse a different reaction from Sullivan: one of outrage—and not at Flynn, but at the government.

The Government Deserves Serious Censure
At the time he questioned Flynn during the December 2018 hearing, Judge Sullivan had no idea of the serious—and likely unwaivable—conflict of interest Flynn’s then-attorneys had. The government had pushed Flynn’s previous attorneys at Covington and Burling LLP, in February 2017, to quickly file a registration statement under the Foreign Agent Registration Act (FARA), for Flynn Intel Group (FIG). Federal prosecutors later obtained indictments against Flynn’s FIG business partners for supposed FARA violations, and still later the prosecutors branded Flynn a co-conspirator in the FARA case. There was a clear conflict of interest, which the government failed to mention to Judge Sullivan.

Further, since Flynn last appeared before Sullivan, the government’s FARA case against his FIG partners has imploded. Following a six-day trial, a jury had convicted Flynn’s former business partner, Bijan Rafiekian, of acting as an unregistered agent of Turkey, conspiring to act as an unregistered agent of Turkey, and conspiring to make willful and material false statements and omissions in a FARA filing.

But federal judge Anthony Trenga stepped in and tossed the guilty verdict, concluding that no “rational jury could conclude that Rafiekian conspired with Alptekin or anyone else.” Judge Trenga further held that “there is no evidence of discussions or suggestions, let alone an agreement express or implied, to either avoid filing under FARA or to cause the filing of a false FARA registration statement.”


That the government’s FARA case against Flynn’s business partner proved bogus should also trouble Sullivan because, according to Powell’s earlier court filings, the special counsel’s office had informed Flynn’s “counsel in the summer of 2017 that it was going to indict the FARA case then, had obtained authorization to target Michael Flynn, Jr.—who had a newborn—and had seized all his electronic devices.”

The threat was clear: Plead guilty and cooperate or we will prosecute your son. And given Judge Trenga’s conclusion in the Rafiekian case that there was no evidence of a FARA crime, there is an added postscript: We will prosecute your son on bogus charges.

Government Threats and Obfuscation
The threat also wasn’t a one off: After Powell took over representation of Flynn, federal prosecutors attempted to force Flynn to testify at Rafiekian’s trial that Flynn had knowingly made false statements in the FARA filings—something Flynn denies. When Flynn refused to lie, federal prosecutors abruptly added Michael Flynn Jr. to the witness list for the Rafiekian trial, but then never called him to testify.

The government, according to Powell, also had an FBI agent contact Flynn Jr. directly, even though the younger Flynn was represented by counsel. These maneuvers corroborate the prosecutors’ earlier use of Flynn Jr. as a pawn to pressure his father to plead guilty.

‘Aside from being represented by completely conflicted counsel, what Defendant has ever spoken off script and called a halt to his sentencing?’
It is possible that Judge Sullivan will take umbrage at Flynn for telling the court he was pleading guilty because he was guilty. But the retired general’s statements, made while being represented by attorneys encumbered by a serious conflict of interest, appear in a different light when considered against the prosecutors’ threat to target his son for a non-existent crime.

Or as Powell put it to The Federalist, “When Flynn appeared before Judge Sullivan, he and counsel were expecting a 30 minute sentencing–not a second plea proceeding. Aside from being represented by completely conflicted counsel, what Defendant has ever spoken off script and called a halt to his sentencing? In thousands of federal cases, I’ve never seen it happen. He was a hostage–more than a dozen members of the special counsel were in the courtroom that day, the indictment just unsealed in Rafiekian—purposely to threaten him and Mike Jr.—the ultimate hostage situation and for which he was unprepared and effectively unrepresented.”

Powell added, “In large part, it was the alarm bells Judge Sullivan sounded that day that began the process that led to consulting and retaining new counsel and uncovering the truth. Judge Sullivan is to be commended for that and for giving him additional time to cooperate. That process also clarified many things.”

That additional time has indeed clarified many things and exposed a well-constructed plot to ambush Flynn, quiz him on a telephone call the inquisitors already knew the content of, and later make material changes to the 302 interview summaries to establish a basis for criminal charges. Judge Sullivan will be considering those new revelations, and not merely Flynn’s previous statements, when he rules on the currently pending motions and those to come.

Margot Cleveland is a senior contributor to The Federalist. Cleveland served nearly 25 years as a permanent law clerk to a federal appellate judge and is a former full-time faculty member and current adjunct instructor at the college of business at the University of Notre Dame. The views expressed here are those of Cleveland in her private capacity.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: John Iacoletti on November 22, 2019, 05:20:26 AM
Republicans: we’re not going to allow anybody who was there to testify

Also Republicans: you weren’t there — that’s just hearsay!
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 22, 2019, 06:24:46 AM
'They were SILENT!

SHAME on the GOP and Trump supporters
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 22, 2019, 06:32:16 AM
Barr is just another Trump* toady

Schiff's closing remarks boil down the GOP toadies squealing HEARSAY which is simply another word for saying 'we weren't there so it didn't happen': The exact same sentiment repeated here by the CT crowd.

Adam Schiff's wrap-up Nov 21
'They were SILENT!'


*The Groper-In-Chief of the United States

      Already getting very serious before IG releases his lengthy report on Dec 9.  Altered Info on the Initial FISA + Flynn's 302 Report was Edited.  Durham/Bar are going to work their way Up the Obama Justice Dept food chain. How high?  You Hacks ain't seen nothin' yet.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 22, 2019, 06:57:44 AM
      Already getting very serious before IG releases his lengthy report on Dec 9.  Altered Info on the Initial FISA + Flynn's 302 Report was Edited.  Durham/Bar are going to work their way Up the Obama Justice Dept food chain. How high?  You Hacks ain't seen nothin' yet.

Honoring the memory of "Maverick" McCain, his late best bud? Or.....?
Quote
https://www.axios.com/lindsey-graham-gordon-sondland-impeachment-f027f99e-4879-4cde-819c-c142ea0f4e9d.html
What Lindsey Graham said about a quid pro quo in October
Watch:
https://www.axios.com/lindsey-graham-gordon-sondland-impeachment-f027f99e-4879-4cde-819c-c142ea0f4e9d.html
Sen. Lindsey Graham told "Axios on HBO" last month that he'd be open to changing his mind on impeachment if he was shown Trump was engaged in a quid pro quo with Ukraine outside of the July 25 phone call.

Why it matters: Today, EU Ambassador Gordon Sondland publicly testified (https://www.axios.com/gordon-sondland-trump-impeachment-opening-statement-25c69f9d-cd4c-4f6f-b831-92aa9c72adf7.html) in an impeachment hearing that a quid pro quo preconditioning a White House meeting in exchange for an investigation into the Biden family's business dealings in Ukraine took place and "reflected President Trump's desires and requirements."

Quote
Graham launches probe of Bidens, Burisma and Ukraine - The ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/graham-launches-probe-into-bidens-burisma-and-ukraine/2019/11/21/5a5675b4-0ca5-11ea-97ac-a7ccc8dd1ebc_story.html
7 hours ago - The Judiciary Committee chairman has asked the State Department for certain communications between former vice president Joe Biden and ...
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 22, 2019, 07:23:18 AM
      Already getting very serious before IG releases his lengthy report on Dec 9.  Altered Info on the Initial FISA + Flynn's 302 Report was Edited.  Durham/Bar are going to work their way Up the Obama Justice Dept food chain. How high?  You Hacks ain't seen nothin' yet.

What we've seen is just how 'lengthy' a Barr report is.
What we've seen is Trump not allowing key witnesses to appear before committee.
What we've seen is a not-so-beautiful-day-in-the-(Trump) neighbourhood.

Brace yourself for disappointment in advance.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 22, 2019, 09:37:26 AM
      Already getting very serious before IG releases his lengthy report on Dec 9.  Altered Info on the Initial FISA + Flynn's 302 Report was Edited.  Durham/Bar are going to work their way Up the Obama Justice Dept food chain. How high?  You Hacks ain't seen nothin' yet.

What on earth do you believe you are claiming? I posted proof just posts above yours that Flynn's incompetent Fox TV attorney
made 29 errors in her recent, irregular pleadings to Flynn sentencing Judge Emmett Sullivan, vs the government accused of making one comparatively minor one. Atty. Sidney Powell actually misused her pleading in an attempt to disguise what it actually is. The Trumpists falsely believe the Judge is sympathetic to Flynn, despite the Judge being privy to enough redacted information last December to ask the prosecutor if Flynn had been at risk of being charged with treason against the U.S, He insisted that Flynn be sworn before asking him  twice of he had been satisfied with his then lawyers' representation and if he was pleading guilty because he believed he was indeed guilty as charged. Then, he warned Flynn to consider postponing that sentencing hearing to afford himself additional opportunity to cooperate with prosecutors, Flynn agreed to postpone while cooperating further, which he proceeded not to actually do, and instead changed his attorney to incompetent TV Trump conspiracy theories lawyer, Sidney Powell !

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/11/04/sidney-powell-complains-that-peter-strzok-is-too-ocd-to-investigate-her-client/
SIDNEY POWELL COMPLAINS THAT PETER STRZOK IS TOO OCD TO INVESTIGATE HER CLIENT
November 4, 2019/...in 2016 Presidential Election, Mueller Probe /by emptywheel

Amid the new fecal matter that Mike Flynn lawyer Sidney Powell throws at Judge Emmet Sullivan in her sur-surreply
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6538593/191104-Flynn-SurSur.pdf
purportedly asking for Brady material is a claim (ostensibly offered to support a claim that she’s entitled to his original notes even though she admits she has no proof to otherwise support her claim) that Peter Strzok was just too damned OCD to investigate her client...

...Effectively this is an insinuation that Sullivan, who bent over backwards to give Flynn the opportunity to ask for counsel from another lawyer, was too stupid to understand the potential need for Flynn to do so. Who knows? It could work. But pretending the Judge didn’t do precisely what you think should happen is not a good way to impress the Judge.

POWELL RENEWS THE CLAIM THAT HER CLIENT WAS TRICKED INTO TELLING THE LIES HE HAD ALREADY TOLD
Only after asking for a Mulligan does Powell get around to reiterating her argument that mean FBI Agents ambushed her 30-year Intelligence veteran client into telling the same lies he had already told others at the White House. In doing so, she simply ignores what the government has already told her, including that they did not use the Steele dossier (which barely mentions Flynn) as a “pretext” to ask him why he was undermining the policy of the government....

.....She then, bizarrely, provides proof that the FBI recognized right away that Flynn didn’t seem to be lying but his statements contradicted with everything that was on the transcript.
Quote
Former Deputy Director Andrew McCabe as much as admitted the FBI’s intent to set up Mr. Flynn on a criminal false statement charge from the get-go. On Dec. 19, 2017, McCabe told the House Intelligence Committee in sworn testimony: “[T]he conundrum that we faced on their return from the interview is that although [the agents] didn’t detect deception in the statements that he made in the interview . . . the statements were inconsistent with our understanding of the conversation that he had actually had with the ambassador.” McCabe proceeded to admit to the Committee that “the two people who interviewed [Flynn] didn’t think he was lying, [which] was not [a] great beginning of a false statement case.”
She then claims that when Brandon Van Grack said that nothing is in the government’s possession he instead said something else, then goes on to … I’m not sure what … without addressing the Van Grack point that the original agent notes match each other and every draft of the 302, meaning nothing in between would be different....

....(Note, with the last filing, the government provided three drafts of the 302, one of which was entered on January 24, meaning she already has this; she could mention that but it thoroughly undermines her own point.)

Finally, after making the claim that Strzok is too meticulous to investigate her client, she returns to a claim that I showed to be false, that the notes don’t support two of the false statements charges.

Quote
Read the notes of both agents for hours, and you won’t find a question or an answer about Kislyak’s response on either the UN vote or the sanctions—yet those assertions underpin the factual basis for the plea.

In about 30 minutes, however, one can find stuff in the notes that is consistent between the two and consistent with Flynn denying both cases.
.....
....As note, the evidence Powell presents actually supports the government. But at least she refrained from accusing her client of lying
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/10/28/sidney-powell-accuses-mike-flynn-of-lying-to-the-fbi-on-january-24-2017/
this time.

POWELL SAYS PROSECUTORS SHOULD NEVER PURSUE PLEA DEALS
Then Powell argues that stuff that (again) happen with many criminal defendants shouldn’t happen with her own, such as that they enter into proffers.
.....
I mean, you sort of have to pick. Is your client a sophisticated intelligence officer with 30 years experience, or is he — represented by a very good lawyer — weaker than other similarly situated people? What Powell lays out, however, is not proof that he was treated differently, but actually proof he was treated the same, however shitty our prosecutorial practices are.

POWELL ADMITS SHE PULLED A BAIT-AND-SWITCH BUT PROMISES TO RETURN TO IT
Finally, there’s the matter of Powell’s bait-and-switch, her late demand to have the plea thrown out in the middle of a specious Brady request. As I noted, prosecutors were a little coy, suggesting that until she presents the demand as a lawyer would, with actual case law, they can only assume she’s arguing a Brady problem.

The most interesting (and potentially risky): even though Sullivan ordered them to address “the new relief, claims, arguments, and information” raised in Powell’s “reply,” they still treat this as primarily a question of Brady obligations. In addressing Powell’s demand to have the prosecution thrown out, they play dumb, noting that Powell has not presented her demand as a lawyer would, with citations and case law, and so then make an assumption that this is primarily about Brady.
.....
.......When complaining that the government didn’t reply to her demand, she doesn’t address the fact that she hasn’t cited any law to support her.[/u]

As predicted, she instead cites Ted Stevens....

.....But it looks like the government gamble paid off. After bitching at the government for ignoring her bait-and-switch, at the very end of the brief, she says that she will formally ask for something she spent a good chunk of her last filing arguing for now and pretends that this is all just a Brady request....

.....At some point, this bait-and-switch is bound to piss off Judge Sullivan, who now has to read two more briefs because of Powell’s little ploy. And I’m not sure invoking the ghost of Ted Stevens will be enough to mitigate any risk of pissing him off about this.

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/11/01/the-government-reminds-emmet-sullivan-that-mike-flynn-already-agreed-his-current-complaints-dont-change-his-guilt/
THE GOVERNMENT REMINDS EMMET SULLIVAN THAT MIKE FLYNN ALREADY AGREED HIS CURRENT COMPLAINTS DON’T CHANGE HIS GUILT
November 1, 2019/  by emptywheel
The government used an interesting strategy in responding to Sidney Powell’s nominal “reply” brief demanding Brady information but actually asking to have the entire prosecution thrown out....

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/10/25/sidney-powell-attempts-to-rewrite-criminal-investigative-procedure/
13 ROUTINE ASPECTS OF FBI INVESTIGATIONS SIDNEY POWELL SAYS SHOULD NOT BE USED WITH MIKE FLYNN
October 25, 2019/  /by emptywheel

...Even if she’s reading these precedents correctly, they’re irrelevant to the issue at hand: how Sullivan interprets his own Brady order
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/09/11/the-giglio-brady-head-fake-in-sidney-powells-latest/
to incorporate Giglio or not, since Flynn had waived rights to discovery by the time he pled guilty. And since that’s not entirely clear, there is little chance she’ll get Sullivan to sanction the prosecutors, which is one thing Powell wants. Plus, much of what Powell presents — including that Strzok believed Flynn showed no indices of lying — actually undermines her arguments that this stuff impeaches Peter Strzok or others. Still, I expect a rigorous discussion on how these precedents apply when Sullivan reviews this stuff on November 7.

There are two other details about this filing of acute interest. First, Powell notes that DOJ is still refusing to disclose a January 30 memo saying that they did not believe Flynn was an Agent of Russia. Mueller said Flynn’s ties were still being very actively investigated this summer. The line in the Mueller Report that addresses his ties to Russia is redacted. There may be a reason why DOJ is withholding that, one that Powell should give some consideration to.....

.....Also, in a recent filing, the government revealed
https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.191592/gov.uscourts.dcd.191592.122.0_3.pdf
 that there were interviews with Flynn that took place after January 24, at which (they claim) he continued to lie
.

Quote
Based on filings and assertions made by the defendant’s new counsel, the government anticipates that the defendant’s cooperation and candor with the government will be contested issues for the Court to consider at sentencing. Accordingly, the government will provide the defendant with the reports of his post-January 24, 2017 interviews. The government notes that the defendant had counsel present at all such interviews.

If he did, in fact, lie in these, any one of them could be turned into a False Statements charge quite easily. And they would demonstrate that all her complaints about the January 24 302 are misplaced.

Curiously, Powell doesn’t mention the existence of these 302s in her rant.

Ultimately, though, her main argument is that Mike Flynn should not have been investigated the way the FBI investigates people. I’m not sure that’s going to get her what she wants.

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/09/06/flynn-steps-in-it-2-0-emmet-sullivan-will-make-sidney-powell-show-the-relevance-of-utterly-irrelevant-secrets/
FLYNN STEPS IN IT 2.0: EMMET SULLIVAN WILL MAKE SIDNEY POWELL EXPLAIN WHY SHE ASKED TO DECLASSIFY TOTALLY IRRELEVANT SECRETS
JUDGE EMMET SULLIVAN IS GOING TO MAKE SIDNEY POWELL EXPLAIN WHY SHE ASKED...
September 6, 2019.....

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/12/19/in-defense-of-emmet-sullivan-van-grack-suggested-mueller-did-review-whether-flynns-behavior-amounted-to-treason/?print=print

IN DEFENSE OF EMMET SULLIVAN: VAN GRACK SUGGESTED MUELLER DID REVIEW WHETHER FLYNN’S BEHAVIOR AMOUNTED TO TREASON
December 19, 2018 / by emptywheel

I’d like to defend Judge Emmet Sullivan’s intemperate mentions of unregistered foreign agents and treason in the Mike Flynn sentencing hearing yesterday. Not only has the discussion about his comments gotten the precise language used wrong, but it fails to understand the import of Mike Flynn’s lies about being an agent of the Turkish government.

There are two comments in question. First, in part of a speech about how he would weigh the mitigating and aggravating factors in Flynn’s sentencing, Sullivan said that Flynn was “an unregistered agent of a foreign country, while serving as the National Security Advisor to the President of the United Stat
There’s a great deal of nonpublic information in this case, and I’ll just leave it at that.
Quote
........
By yesterday morning, Emmet Sullivan probably became one of the few people outside Mueller’s team and his DOJ supervisors that understands the activities that Trump and his associates, including Flynn, engaged in from 2015 to 2017. He understands not just the significance of Flynn’s lies, but also how those lies tied to graft and conspiracy with foreign countries — countries including, but not limited to, Russia.

It should gravely worry the Trump people that Sullivan’s comments about whether Flynn’s behavior was treasonous came from someone who just read about what the Mueller investigation has discovered.

Now consider that, as part of his effort to understand how much benefit Flynn got from pleading guilty to one charge of false statements for his multiple lies, Sullivan and Van Grack had this exchange.
Quote
MR. VAN GRACK: [W]e’d like to bring to the Court’s attention that we just had an indictment unsealed in the Eastern District of Virginia charging Bijan Rafiekian and Ekim Alptekin with various violations, and the defendant provided substantial assistance to the attorneys in the Eastern District of Virginia in obtaining that charging document.

THE COURT: All right. Could the defendant have been indicted in that indictment? Could he have been charged in that indictment?

MR. VAN GRACK: And, Your Honor, the answer is yes, and the reason for that is that in the Statement of Offense in this case, the defendant refers to false statements in that FARA filing that are part of the indictment filed in the Eastern District of Virginia.

[snip]

THE COURT: And that would have been — what’s the exposure in that indictment if someone is found guilty?

MR. VAN GRACK: Your Honor, I believe, if you’ll give me a moment, I believe it was a conspiracy, 18 U.S.C. 371, which I believe is a five-year offense. It was a violation of 18 U.S.C. 951, which is either a five- or ten-year offense, and false statements — under those false statements, now that I think about it, Your Honor, pertain to Ekim Alptekin, and I don’t believe the defendant had exposure to the false statements of that individual.

THE COURT: Could the sentences have been run consecutive to one another?

MR. VAN GRACK: I believe so.

THE COURT: So the exposure would have been grave, then, would have been — it would have been — exposure to Mr. Flynn would have been significant had he been indicted? [my emphasis]

Van Grack not only says that Flynn could have been charged in that conspiracy to act as an unregistered foreign agent indictment, but that the lies he told were part of the indictment.

And in fact, this language in Flynn’s statement of the offense (which Sullivan read yesterday in court):.....

Quote
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/12/18/the-flynn-sentencing-what-comes-next/

THE FLYNN SENTENCING: WHAT COMES NEXT?
December 18, 2018/ /by emptywheel
As Zoe Tillman describes,
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/zoetillman/judge-michael-flynn-sentencing-sold-country-our
 the Mike Flynn sentencing hearing today was even more unpredictable than I imagined (and I anticipated it would bring some surprises). Judge Emmet Sullivan (after apparently putting Flynn under oath so these questions, too, could be charged for perjury) asked him several times whether — given the sentencing memorandum he submitted suggesting
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/12/12/mike-flynn-doesnt-want-drug-testing-to-interrupt-his-return-to-influence-peddling/
extenuating circumstances for his lies to the FBI (but not to DOJ’s FARA team) — he believed he had lied, whether he knew that was a crime, whether he wanted to plead guilty....
......
Having established that — and offered Flynn several opportunities to delay sentencing, he laid into him, even going so far as to ask prosecutor Brandon Van Grack if Mueller had considered charing Flynn with treason.....

Quote
Flynn at that point took up the judge’s offer of additional time to consult with his lawyers. Before the judge took a break, however, he asked special counsel prosecutor Brandon Van Grack if Flynn could have been charged with treason for his conversations with now-former Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak in December 2016, after then-president Barack Obama had entered sanctions against Russia for interfering in the election.

That’s when Flynn asked Sullivan for a break. When he and his lawyers returned, they took Sullivan up on his offer for a delay, and suggested a status hearing in March.

But it’s not entirely clear how that will help — aside from giving Sullivan time to set aside the visceral disgust he showed for Flynn today.....
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: John Mytton on November 22, 2019, 10:13:53 AM
Is there a connection between CT's and LNers and Republicans and Democrats, and does the political belief system influence the connection to CT or LNer?
Are CT's likely to be Democrats and are LNers likely to be Republicans?

JohnM
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 22, 2019, 11:27:41 AM
Is there a connection between CT's and LNers and Republicans and Democrats, and does the political belief system influence the connection to CT or LNer?
Are CT's likely to be Democrats and are LNers likely to be Republicans?

JohnM

John,

In a broader and more recent context than "just" the JFK assassination, don't many Republicans believe in the outrageous conspiracy theory (promoted by Russia, btw) that it was fascist Ukraine that "meddled" in our most recent predidential election, not benevolent, peace-loving Russia?

Haven't 98 years of Russian active measures counterintelligence operations, interwoven with "KGB-within-the-KGB" strategic deception counterintelligence operations since 1959, taken their toll on us to such an extent that we now find ourselves saddled with KGB-boy Vladimir Putin's useful idiots extraordinaire, Sean Hannity, Alex Jones, Rudy Giuliani, Devin Nunes, Donald Trump, et al.?

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on November 22, 2019, 01:07:29 PM
Is there a connection between CT's and LNers and Republicans and Democrats, and does the political belief system influence the connection to CT or LNer?
Are CT's likely to be Democrats and are LNers likely to be Republicans?

JohnM

A quick search revealed this......fwiw.

 https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-one-thing-in-politics-most-americans-believe-in-jfk-conspiracies/ (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-one-thing-in-politics-most-americans-believe-in-jfk-conspiracies/)

Doesn’t appear so from their data.

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/10/26/the-kennedy-assassination-is-a-rarity-these-days-a-bipartisan-conspiracy-theory/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/10/26/the-kennedy-assassination-is-a-rarity-these-days-a-bipartisan-conspiracy-theory/)

Similar....but these relate purely to JFK. Seems Republicans believe in Ukrainian meddling in 2016....LOL
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 22, 2019, 03:22:13 PM
Is there a connection between CT's and LNers and Republicans and Democrats, and does the political belief system influence the connection to CT or LNer?
Are CT's likely to be Democrats and are LNers likely to be Republicans?

JohnM

I've always seen LNers here as center-left and CTers as extreme right
But any number of WC supporters could be center-right of course
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 22, 2019, 03:23:57 PM
    Who payed a Foreign Spy who then employed RUSSIAN Sources to compile an Anti-Trump Dossier which was also then used to corner stone a FISA and 3 renewals? It was the DNC/Hillary. According to Donna Brazil the DNC was broke before/during the 2016 campaign so Hillary was essentially bankrolling that Covert operation. You guys need to wake up. And for the record I am a registered Dem. It was disillusioned Dem's across this country, (such as myself), that voted Trump = his election. Calif is in absolute shambles due to Dem policies/control. The current exodus underway being a case in point.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 22, 2019, 06:45:32 PM
    Who payed a Foreign Spy who then employed RUSSIAN Sources to compile an Anti-Trump Dossier which was also then used to corner stone a FISA and 3 renewals? It was the DNC/Hillary. According to Donna Brazil the DNC was broke before/during the 2016 campaign so Hillary was essentially bankrolling that Covert operation. You guys need to wake up. And for the record I am a registered Dem. It was disillusioned Dem's across this country, (such as myself), that voted Trump = his election. Calif is in absolute shambles due to Dem policies/control. The current exodus underway being a case in point.

Good Lord you are such a shmuck. So poor innocent grifter Trumputin got railroaded by the Dems in 2016 when all he was trying to do was lift the sanctions on Russia so he could get his Trump tower erected in Moscow...and not because of the massive kompramat Putin has on him. Trumputin must be innocent of colluding with the Rooskies since his Cult, the Mueller Report and Fox News all say so, except that even Barr had to admit the Mueller Report did NOT exonerate Trumputin of at least 10 counts of obstruction of justice.

Why didn't Barr include all the obstruction in his summary? It's because Barr has his own demons to slay and he needs to protect Trumputin to remain in office. Barr is focused on the JFK assassination and his connection to GHWB. Barr wanted the AG job to get at the remaining JFK files to nix them, which is why he launched this ridiculous "Investigating the investigators" nonsense. Now he has access to all the files and you rubes bought into it hook line and sinker.  :D

After all, Trumputin would never lie to us, would he Royell? Barr's BS is like exonerating Trumputin due to an illegal search or failing to read Trumputin his Miranda rights. He's guilty as hell but the GOP lets him off the hook time and time again over legal technicalities and process. Roy Cohn must be turning in his grave with pride.

The transformation is complete and the GOP are now officially the party of deplorables and ANYTHING goes! The US is the laughing stock of the world thanks to rubes like you Royell. Congrats and thanks for nothing!


Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 22, 2019, 07:13:44 PM
Is there a connection between CT's and LNers and Republicans and Democrats, and does the political belief system influence the connection to CT or LNer?
Are CT's likely to be Democrats and are LNers likely to be Republicans?

JohnM

No.

JackT
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 22, 2019, 07:22:49 PM
Good Lord you are such a shmuck. So poor innocent grifter Trumputin got railroaded by the Dems in 2016 when all he was trying to do was lift the sanctions on Russia so he could get his Trump tower erected in Moscow...and not because of the massive kompramat Putin has on him. Trumputin must be innocent of colluding with the Rooskies since his Cult, the Mueller Report and Fox News all say so, except that even Barr had to admit the Mueller Report did NOT exonerate Trumputin of at least 10 counts of obstruction of justice.

Why didn't Barr include all the obstruction in his summary? It's because Barr has his own demons to slay and he needs to protect Trumputin to remain in office. Barr is focused on the JFK assassination and his connection to GHWB. Barr wanted the AG job to get at the remaining JFK files to nix them, which is why he launched this ridiculous "Investigating the investigators" nonsense. And you rubes bought into it hook line and sinker.  :D

After all, Trumputin would never lie to us, would he Royell? Barr's BS is like exonerating Trumputin due to an illegal search or failing to read Trumputin his Miranda rights. He's guilty as hell but the GOP let him off the hook time and time again over legal technicalities and process. Roy Cohn must be turning in his grave with pride.

The transformation is complete and the GOP are now officially the party of deplorables and ANYTHING goes! The US is the laughing stock of the world thanks to rubes like you Royell. Congrats and thanks for nothing!

Jack, "Rumpelstiltskin" Storing posted that crap despite my posting this, on page 31 of this thread, from "Hopey's" June, 2019 House Intel Committee testimony. At the top of the page, she is finishing her description of reaction to the sudden awareness of the "grabber" tape, on October 8, 2016. I shared this with "Rumpel..." to inform his readers that the most salacious details included in the Steele Dossier had nothing actually to do with Steele. The page image below of her testimony proves Trump and insiders were aware as early as on October 8 that existence of "the pee tape" is independent from the Steele dossier, or at least that Russians who may have informed Steele of such a thing were also spreading details of it to others.

Just as Steele Dossier as pinata, the standard tactic of Trumpets when, as happens too often, they have no actual factual defense, reflexively resort to "shooting the messenger." Who do they still think they are fooling?

Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/11/19/transcript-vindman-williams-testify-front-house-intelligence-committee-nov/
....VINDMAN: Ranking Member, it's Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, please.

NUNES: Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, you testified in the deposition that you did not know who the whistleblower was -- or is.

VINDMAN: I do not know who the whistleblower is. That is correct...

This Trumpet she-devil did this despite Lt. Col. Vindman testifying under oath just days ago that he did not know the identity of the whistleblower. Sadly, this is all Trumpets have got to "defend" their albatross in the White House. These same bastards attacked Obama for wearing a tan colored suit, presumably because they had nothing better to throw at him that week.
Quote
(10629314) Senator Marsha Blackburn (R ... - FARK.com
https://www.fark.com/comments/10629314/Senator-Marsha-Blackburn-R-epulsive-shows-her-support-for-troops
13 mins ago - Senator Marsha Blackburn (R-epulsive) shows her support for the ... MarshaBlackburn: Vindictive Vindman is the "whistleblower's" handler.

What R. Storing and other Trumpets have been doing is similar to blaming the American news media for the Pearl Harbor attack in reaction to them reporting details of it to the American people.

Quote
Tommy, I am posting this to emphasize the condition Trump has lied his supporters into. He has instructed them only to believe what he tells them, as ludicrous as that seems to the rest of us.

The attacks on Brennan & Comey are a lie, a former reality TV performer crying crocodile tears in an effort to herd Fox News viewers to be motivated to vote a second time to finish the mission to deliver the U.S. into an alliance with Putin as OPEN national policy, even if they still do not understand that is what their votes are being used to accomplish.
.....
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpHopeHicksTestimonyPg196.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpHopeHicksTestimonyPg197.jpg)
.......
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 22, 2019, 09:18:34 PM
Jack, "Rumpelstiltskin" Storing posted that crap despite my posting this, on page 31 of this thread, from "Hopey's" June, 2019 House Intel Committee testimony. At the top of the page, she is finishing her description of reaction to the sudden awareness of the "grabber" tape, on October 8, 2016. I shared this with "Rumpel..." to inform his readers that the most salacious details included in the Steele Dossier had nothing actually to do with Steele. The page image below of her testimony proves Trump and insiders were aware as early as on October 8 that existence of "the pee tape" is independent from the Steele dossier, or at least that Russians who may have informed Steele of such a thing were also spreading details of it to others.

Just as Steele Dossier as pinata, the standard tactic of Trumpets when, as happens too often, they have no actual factual defense, reflexively resort to "shooting the messenger." Who do they still think they are fooling?

This Trumpet she-devil did this despite Lt. Col. Vindman testifying under oath just days ago that he did not know the identity of the whistleblower. Sadly, this is all Trumpets have got to "defend" their albatross in the White House. These same bastards attacked Obama for wearing a tan colored suit, presumably because they had nothing better to throw at him that week.
What R. Storing and other Trumpets have been doing is similar to blaming the American news media for the Pearl Harbor attack in reaction to them reporting details of it to the American people.

       There is something to be said for someone who can succinctly make their point. That ain't you.  No matter how hard you try, you can Not NOW runaway from the Steele Dossier. Barr is on the scent.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 22, 2019, 11:31:35 PM
So far on Fox News, crickets.....

Quote
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com

Mueller lawyer with anti-Trump bias is ex-FBI official facing FISA criminal investigation
By Daniel Chaitin & Jerry Dunleavy

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Anschutz
Philip Frederick Anschutz ...born December 28, 1939) is an American billionaire businessman who owns or controls many companies in a variety of businesses, including energy, railroads, real estate, sports, newspapers, movies, theaters, arenas and music. He is a philanthropist whose name appears on medical and educational institutions to which he has donated millions. Anschutz has been described as a Christian conservative....

....Anschutz has invested in, for example, the Clarity Media Group, a Denver-based publishing group that includes[38] newspapers such as The Oklahoman, the largest newspaper in Oklahoma; The San Francisco Examiner (purchased in 2004, sold in November 2011); The Washington Examiner, a right-wing weekly tabloid that was consolidated from group of D.C.-area suburban dailies; The Baltimore Examiner, which launched in April 2006 and was shut down in early 2009; the now-closed Examiner.com, a hyper-local web portal where contributors wrote on local topics from news to blog-like stories; the conservative Weekly Standard (purchased in 2009);[39] and The Gazette, Colorado's second-largest newspaper, with a daily circulation of 74,172 (purchased on November 30, 2012)[40] (Anschutz has trademarked the name "Examiner" in more than 60 cities.)

On December 14, 2018, Anschultz executed the closure of The Weekly Standard and fired all its employees. Editor in Chief Stephen Hayes had initially been cleared to find a buyer but after a venture capital firm agreed to broker any future deal, Anschutz withdrew permission and decided to effectively kill the company in order to harvest its subscribers....

Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/inspector-generals-report-on-fbis-russia-probe-to-be-delivered-dec-9/2019/11/21/6d6d789e-0c70-11ea-8397-a955cd542d00_story.html#comments-wrapper

Watchdog finds political bias did not taint top officials running FBI’s Russia probe

Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz is expected to find that the FBI investigation of President Trump’s 2016 campaign was opened on a sound legal basis, according to people familiar with the findings. But it will fault lapses by lower-level employees.
By Ellen Nakashima, Matt Zapotosky and Devlin Barrett 1 hour ago

The Justice Department’s internal watchdog is expected to find in a forthcoming report that political bias did not taint top officials running the FBI investigation into possible coordination between Russia and the Trump campaign in 2016, while at the same time criticizing the bureau for systemic failures in its handling of surveillance applications, according to two U.S. officials.

The report due out Dec. 9 from Inspector General Michael Horowitz will allege that a low-level FBI lawyer inappropriately altered a document that was used as part of a controversial application for electronic surveillance of a former Trump campaign adviser, the officials said. The inspector general referred that finding to U.S. Attorney John Durham, so that he may investigate it as a possible crime, they said.

The Justice Department inspector general faults low-level FBI lawyer for altering document

But Horowitz will conclude that the application still had a proper legal and factual basis, according to the officials, who like others spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive report.

The real, "leader of the free world," CIC of most powerful military in world history, would be expected to be too busy to....
Quote
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/22/politics/fact-check-trump-fox-and-friends-november/index.html
Trump makes at least 18 false claims in ranting Fox & Friends interview

By Daniel Dale and Tara Subramaniam, CNN
Updated 4:22 PM ET, Fri November 22, 2019

Washington (CNN)Fox & Friends tried harder than usual -- not especially hard, but harder than usual
http://www.cnn.com/2019/11/22/politics/donald-trump-senate-trial-fox-news-interview/index.html
-- to challenge President Donald Trump.

It did not work very well.
Trump ranted dishonestly
http://www.cnn.com/2019/11/22/politics/donald-trump-fiona-hill-impeachment-ukraine/index.html
for much of his 53-minute Friday interview
http://www.cnn.com/2019/11/22/politics/donald-trump-senate-trial-fox-news-interview/index.html
with his favorite morning show, repeatedly refusing to let the show's co-hosts get in a word in edgewise. When they did manage to make a semi-critical point, Trump brushed them off.

When co-host Steve Doocy asked Trump if he was sure about his claim that the Democratic National Committee had given an important computer server that was hacked in 2016 to Ukraine (they had not), Trump said, providing no evidence and citing no sources, "That's what the word is."
When co-host Brian Kilmeade corrected Trump's claim that European countries haven't provided aid to Ukraine, Trump didn't respond. (Kilmeade had quickly moved on to the next question.) When Kilmeade corrected Trump's claim that he has "pulled out" of Syria, noting that Trump is keeping hundreds of soldiers in the country, Trump again said nothing. (Kilmeade quickly moved on again.)
Trump made at least 18 false claims in the interview -- and that's our initial count. We're still looking into some other claims.
The list so far:.....


Quote
RNC spends $95,000 on copies of Donald Trump Jr.'s new book ...
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rnc-bought-95000-worth-of-copies-of-donald-trump-jr-s-new-book/
3 hours ago - The Republican National Committee spent nearly $95000 on copies Donald Trump Jr.'s new book
 ... Trump claims Marie Yovanovitch refused to hang his portrait · Trump speaks at ... President Trump praised his eldest son's new book to his nearly 67 ...

(Ruddy, it is "committee" not "convention")
Quote
https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/donald-trump-jr-rnc-republican-national-committee/2019/11/21/id/942822/
The Republican National Convention spent nearly $100,000 on copies of Donald Trump Jr.'s book, "Triggered," for what RNC spokesman Mike Reed called "donor mementos," according to new filings with the Federal Elections Commission, reports The New York Times.

The RNC paid Books A Million $94,800 for copies of the book a week before its release. "Triggered: How the Left Thrives on Hate and Wants to Silence Us" has topped The New York Times' nonfiction bestseller list for two weeks. A significant portion of the sales were driven by "institutional, special interest, group or bulk purchases," per The Times.
.....
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Bill Chapman on November 22, 2019, 11:35:11 PM
'All the President's Lies'
--CNN Sunday 9:00pm EST
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 23, 2019, 01:01:11 AM

   Gee  ;D where have all You Trump Bashers gone? The IG + Durham/Barr has driven the lot of you into hiding. It's being reported Today that Durham is in the middle of his 3rd trip to Italy.  Hell-To-Pay is on the horizon. After that comes a Trump 2nd Term. You Schiff Followers are facing some Seriously Hard Times.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Jack Trojan on November 23, 2019, 01:16:17 AM
   Gee  ;D where have all You Trump Bashers gone? The IG + Durham/Barr has driven the lot of you into hiding. It's being reported Today that Durham is in the middle of his 3rd trip to Italy.  Hell-To-Pay is on the horizon. After that comes a Trump 2nd Term. You Schiff Followers are facing some Seriously Hard Times.

We're still here. ;D Why would this silly Barr Witch Hunt chase us off? So who is going to pay hell and how does this Witch Hunt exonerate your dear leader?

You realize this is all intended to get Putin off the hook, not Trump. Like the Ukraine scandal, this is Just more of Putin's bidding. Sucker!
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 23, 2019, 01:29:19 AM
   Gee  ;D where have all You Trump Bashers gone? The IG + Durham/Barr has driven the lot of you into hiding. It's being reported Today that Durham is in the middle of his 3rd trip to Italy.  Hell-To-Pay is on the horizon. After that comes a Trump 2nd Term. You Schiff Followers are facing some Seriously Hard Times.

Royell,

Gonna meet with Putin's agent, Joseph Mifsud, to get "the inside scoop"?

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 23, 2019, 01:32:25 AM
We're still here. ;D Why would this silly Barr Witch Hunt chase us off? So who is going to pay hell and how does this Witch Hunt exonerate your dear leader?

You realize this is all intended to get Putin off the hook, not Trump. Like the Ukraine scandal, this is Just more of Putin's bidding. Sucker!

     Short and Sweet = follow Schiff at your own peril.  The roof is already falling in on the Whistle Blower, Brennan, Schiff connection. Hang onto your hat as Barr The Bulldog chews his way up the Obama Justice Dept Food Chain.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 23, 2019, 02:47:59 AM
     Short and Sweet = follow Schiff at your own peril.  The roof is already falling in on the Whistle Blower, Brennan, Schiff connection. Hang onto your hat as Barr The Bulldog chews his way up the Obama Justice Dept Food Chain.

Rumplestiltskin Storing, the "coup" news is that Putin is now "running" Trump, republican senators, House minority leader
Kevin McCarthy, ranking minority member of House Intel Comm., Devin Nunes, and presumably the other republicans on
that House Intel committee who questioned witnesses this past week. Do you prefer Trump announcing suspension of the First Amendment or revising your own mistaken opinions?:

Quote
Exclusive: Giuliani associate willing to tell Congress Nunes met with ex-Ukrainian official to get dirt on Biden
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/22/politics/nunes-vienna-trip-ukrainian-prosecutor-biden/index.html

By Vicky Ward
Updated 10:14 PM ET, Fri November 22, 2019
......
......"Mr. Parnas learned from former Ukrainian Prosecutor General Victor Shokin that Nunes had met with Shokin in Vienna last December," said Bondy.
Shokin was ousted from his position in 2016 after pressure from Western leaders,
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/03/politics/gop-senators-echoed-biden-on-ukraine-reforms-kfile/index.html
 including then-vice president Biden, over concerns that Shokin was not pursuing corruption cases........

Is not Putin militarily attacking Ukraine since 2014 ? Haven't you volk gone out of your minds?

Quote
https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-gloats-republicans-push-conspiracy-theory-ukraine-2016-2019-11

Putin says 'thank God' as Republicans push his bogus conspiracy theory that Ukraine interfered in 2016
John Haltiwanger Nov 21, 2019, 11:46 AM
Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday boasted that "no one is accusing" Russia of interfering in US elections anymore, adding: "now they're accusing Ukraine."

Quote
'Thank God': Putin thrilled U.S. 'political battles' over Ukraine ...
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/thank-god-putin-thrilled-u-s-political-battles-over-ukraine-n1087126
2 days ago - “No one is accusing us of interfering in the U.S. elections anymore; now ... theory that blames Ukraine, not Russia, for interfering in the U.S.'s ...

Putin: U.S. political drama diverting attention from Russia ...
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/20/vladimir-putin-trump-impeachment-russia-ukraine-072324
2 days ago - Russian President Vladimir Putin addresses an economic forum Wednesday. ... “no one is accusing us of interfering in the U.S. elections anymore; now ... conspiracy theory that blames Ukraine, not Russia, for interfering in the ...

Putin says US 'political dramas' diverting focus from Russia ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/putin-says-us-political-dramas-diverting-focus-from-russia/2019/11/20/3688afd6-0ba5-11ea-8054-289aef6e38a3_story.html
3 days ago - Russian President Vladimir Putin says the “political battles” in Washington ... “no one is accusing us of interfering in the U.S. elections anymore; now ... theory that blames Ukraine, not Russia, for interfering in the U.S.'s 2016 ..
.

Quote
....That muddy brew worked its way into American information ecosystems, sloshing around until parts of it reached Mr. Trump, who has also spoken with Mr. Putin about allegations of Ukrainian interference. Mr. Trump also brought up the assertions of Ukrainian meddling in his July 25 call with President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine, which is at the heart of the impeachment inquiry into whether he abused his power by asking for a public commitment to investigations he stood to gain from personally......
...During a news conference in February 2017, Mr. Putin accused the Ukrainian government of supporting Hillary Clinton during the previous American election and funding her candidacy with friendly oligarchs.

It is not clear when American intelligence agencies learned about Moscow’s campaign or when precisely it began........

Quote
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/22/politics/republicans-debunked-ukraine-theory/index.html
House GOP disregards expert warnings that debunked Ukraine theory helps Russia
By Manu Raju, Jeremy Herb and Zachary Cohen, CNN

Updated 5:49 PM ET, Fri November 22, 2019
(CNN)Expert after expert in the House impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump testified about one key fact: That Ukraine had no role interfering in the 2016 elections to help Hillary Clinton. And one key witness sounded the alarm even louder.

"This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves," said Fiona Hill, Trump's former top Russia adviser, in testimony that reflects what US intelligence officials have privately told lawmakers in recent months.
But to House Republicans, that's all just a bunch of talk.
Asked after Hill's testimony if he believed Ukraine interfered in the 2016 elections, House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy said: "I think they did."
McCarthy is hardly alone......

Quote
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/22/us/politics/ukraine-russia-interference.html
Charges of Ukrainian Meddling? A Russian Operation, U.S. Intelligence Says
Moscow has run a yearslong operation to blame Ukraine for its own 2016 election interference. Republicans have used similar talking points to defend President Trump in impeachment proceedings.
By Julian E. Barnes and Matthew Rosenberg
Nov. 22, 2019, 1:34 p.m. ET

.....
In a briefing that closely aligned with Dr. Hill’s testimony, American intelligence officials informed senators and their aides in recent weeks that Russia had engaged in a yearslong campaign to essentially frame Ukraine as responsible for Moscow’s own hacking of the 2016 election, according to three American officials. The briefing came as Republicans stepped up their defenses of Mr. Trump in the Ukraine affair.

The revelations demonstrate Russia’s persistence in trying to sow discord among its adversaries — and show that the Kremlin apparently succeeded, as unfounded claims about Ukrainian interference seeped into Republican talking points. American intelligence agencies believe Moscow is likely to redouble its efforts as the 2020 presidential campaign intensifies. The classified briefing for senators also focused on Russia’s evolving influence tactics, including its growing ability to better disguise operations.
......
....That muddy brew worked its way into American information ecosystems, sloshing around until parts of it reached Mr. Trump, who has also spoken with Mr. Putin about allegations of Ukrainian interference. Mr. Trump also brought up the assertions of Ukrainian meddling in his July 25 call with President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine, which is at the heart of the impeachment inquiry into whether he abused his power by asking for a public commitment to investigations he stood to gain from personally......
.....Indeed, Ms. Stefanik and her Republican colleagues on the Democratic-led House Intelligence Committee, which is conducting the impeachment hearing, have also steered clear of the fringe notion that Mr. Trump mentioned to Mr. Zelensky, which is pushed by Russian intelligence: the so-called CrowdStrike server conspiracy theory, which falsely suggests Ukraine, not Russia, was behind the breach of Democratic operatives’ servers.

Mr. Trump repeated the baseless claim on Friday in an interview with “Fox & Friends,” laying out the narrative and doubling down after a host gently pressed him on whether he was sure of one aspect of the debunked theory, that the F.B.I. gave a Democratic server to what Mr. Trump had inaccurately described as a Ukrainian-owned company.

“That is what the word is,” Mr. Trump replied.

Some Republicans have also focused on Hunter Biden, raising questions about whether his hiring by the Ukrainian energy company Burisma was corrupt. Burisma hired Mr. Biden while his father, former Vice President Joseph Biden Jr., a potential rival of Mr. Trump’s in the 2020 election, was leading the Obama administration’s Ukraine policy. On the July 25 call, Mr. Trump also demanded Mr. Zelensky investigate Burisma and Hunter Biden....
...Mr. Putin began publicly pushing false theories of Ukrainian interference in the early months of 2017 to deflect responsibility from Russia, said Senator Angus King, independent of Maine and a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, who declined to answer questions about the briefing.

“These people are pros at this,” said Mr. King, who caucuses with the Democrats. “The Soviet Union used disinformation for 70 years. This is nothing new. Vladimir Putin is a former K.G.B. agent. He is trained in deception. This is his stock and trade and he is doing it well.”

During a news conference in February 2017, Mr. Putin accused the Ukrainian government of supporting Hillary Clinton during the previous American election and funding her candidacy with friendly oligarchs.

It is not clear when American intelligence agencies learned about Moscow’s campaign or when precisely it began.....
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on November 23, 2019, 03:47:05 AM
Most popular self development course currently being undertaken by the Trump inner circle.....

"How to avoid dropping the soap while showering".
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Royell Storing on November 23, 2019, 04:20:10 AM

    Only Trump Derangement Syndrome could get Crow spouting off something like that. Very sad to see.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tim Nickerson on November 23, 2019, 04:43:48 AM

PS  By the way, have you read this article in the conservative New Republic yet?

The conservative New Republic?  BS:
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Thomas Graves on November 23, 2019, 04:48:55 AM
The conservative New Republic?  BS:

Tim,

What would you call it?

Fascistic?


-- MWT  ;)

Edit:  Check that.

I was confusing it with National Review.

My bad.

Regardless, do you agree or disagree with the article?

--  MWT  ;)

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 23, 2019, 05:01:35 AM
Most popular self development course currently being undertaken by the Trump inner circle.....

"How to avoid dropping the soap while showering".

    Only Trump Derangement Syndrome could get Crow spouting off something like that. Very sad to see.

You are  almost as abrasively shameless as you are uninformed, a member of the "give the world the middle finger," Trump party.

Quote
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/30/us/politics/trump-australia-barr-mueller.html
Trump Pressed Australian Leader to Help Barr Investigate Mueller Inquiry’s Origins
The discussion was another instance of the president using American diplomacy for potential personal gain.
By Mark Mazzetti and Katie Benner
Sept. 30, 2019

WASHINGTON — President Trump pushed the Australian prime minister during a recent telephone call to help Attorney General William P. Barr gather information for a Justice Department inquiry that Mr. Trump hopes will discredit the Mueller investigation, according to two American officials with knowledge of the call.

The White House curbed access to a transcript of the call — which the president made at Mr. Barr’s request — to a small group of aides, one of the officials said. The restriction was unusual and similar to the handling of a July call with the Ukrainian president that is at the heart of House Democrats’ impeachment inquiry.

Like that call, Mr. Trump’s discussion with Prime Minister Scott Morrison of Australia shows the president using high-level diplomacy to advance his personal political interests.

The discussion with Mr. Morrison shows the extent to which Mr. Trump views the attorney general as a crucial partner: The president is using federal law enforcement powers to aid his political prospects, settle scores with his perceived “deep state” enemies and show that the Mueller investigation had corrupt, partisan origins....

...In making the request — one of many at Mr. Barr’s behest — Mr. Trump was in effect asking the Australian government to investigate itself.....

....Australia’s top diplomat in Britain had met in London in May 2016
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/30/us/politics/how-fbi-russia-investigation-began-george-papadopoulos.html?module=inline
with George Papadopoulos, a Trump campaign foreign policy adviser who revealed the Russian offer of dirt on Mrs. Clinton.

.....The Justice Department said last week that law enforcement officials were exploring the extent to which other countries, including Ukraine, “played a role in the counterintelligence investigation directed at the Trump campaign.” At the very least, Mr. Barr has made clear that he sees his work treading into delicate territory: how closely allies’ law enforcement and intelligence agencies share information with American officials.

Current and former Justice Department officials said that it would be neither illegal nor untoward for Mr. Trump to ask world leaders to cooperate with Mr. Barr. And it is within Mr. Barr’s powers to speak with foreign law enforcement officials about what his prosecutors need.....
.....But others criticized Mr. Barr’s active role in the Durham inquiry. “It would be extremely unusual for the attorney general to be this personally involved in any investigation, let alone one where his personal integrity has already come under question,” said Matthew Miller, a top Justice Department spokesman during the Obama administration.

“It is even more inappropriate that he is so closely involving the president when the entire probe is something the president repeatedly demanded to settle scores with people he sees as enemies,” Mr. Miller added.

The report by the special counsel who completed the Russia investigation, Robert S. Mueller III, confirmed that Australia played a central role in the origins of the original F.B.I. inquiry. But like so much about the pre-election period, the episode has been the subject of a counternarrative marbled with conspiracy: that the Obama administration dispatched the Australian official, Alexander Downer, to spy on the Trump campaign as part of a broader effort to help Mrs. Clinton get elected.

No evidence has emerged to support that claim, but the conspiracy theory has been advanced by some of the president’s allies in Congress, by Fox News commentators and by Mr. Papadopoulos,
who served about two weeks in prison for lying to F.B.I. agents who questioned him about contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian intermediaries.

Mr. Morrison also met Mr. Trump in Washington this month for official meetings and a state dinner at the White House. Mr. Barr attended the dinner, and Justice Department officials met with Australian representatives during the visit.

The attorney general set off controversy in April when he told lawmakers that “spying” on the Trump campaign had taken place as part of the Russia investigation, and that there was a “failure among a group of leaders” in the intelligence community.

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tim Nickerson on November 23, 2019, 05:14:55 AM
Tim,

What would you call it?

Fascistic?


-- MWT  ;)

Edit:  Check that.

I was confusing it with National Review.

My bad.

Regardless, do you agree or disagree with the article?

--  MWT  ;)

I neither agree nor disagree with it. I haven't read it.
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on November 23, 2019, 05:26:58 AM
Sometimes ya just got to laugh.....

(https://i.ibb.co/ky6G0NV/757-A9-E9-D-D8-F1-4-CB7-B961-90-A222-F7-CF0-F.jpg)

As I said previously, he's a symptom not the disease. Is there a cure?
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Colin Crow on November 23, 2019, 05:28:28 AM
    Only Trump Derangement Syndrome could get Crow spouting off something like that. Very sad to see.

TDS = reality
Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 23, 2019, 05:39:46 AM
I neither agree nor disagree with it. I haven't read it.

Tim, does the offensive depiction you've posted of the chairman of the U.S. House of Rep. Intelligence Committee, who happens to be gay, indicate you are inside the Royell Storing alternative universe, or possibly an objection to his homosexuality, or merely an attempt at uninformed humor?

I  think it is beneath you to post it, considering the facts.

Rumplestiltskin Storing, the "coup" news is that Putin is now "running" Trump, republican senators, House minority leader
Kevin McCarthy, ranking minority member of House Intel Comm., Devin Nunes, and presumably the other republicans on that House Intel committee who questioned witnesses this past week. Do you prefer Trump announcing suspension of the First Amendment or revising your own mistaken opinions?:

Is not Putin militarily attacking Ukraine since 2014 ? Haven't you volk gone out of your minds?
....
https://twitter.com/IgnatiusPost/status/1197977432470495233
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpGOPCaughtByPutin.jpg)

Quote
Giuliani consulted on Ukraine with imprisoned Paul Manafort via
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/giuliani-consulted-on-ukraine-with-imprisoned-paul-manafort-via-a-lawyer/2019/10/02/7a6dc542-e486-11e9-b7da-053c79b03db8_story.html
Oct 2, 2019 - Giuliani consulted on Ukraine with imprisoned Paul Manafort via a lawyer ... Manafort, who is serving a 7½ -year term in a federal prison in ...

Quote
Internal Mueller documents show Trump campaign chief pushed
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/internal-mueller-documents-show-trump-campaign-chief-suggested-ukraine-hacked-democrats-during-2016-campaign/2019/11/02/cc8e461c-fd90-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html
Nov 2, 2019 - ... Manafort's protege, deputy campaign manager Rick Gates, told the ... Gates told the FBI that Manafort had shared his theory of Ukrainian ... The president had pushed Ukrainians to open a probe into whether their country interfered in .... Kilimnik was charged with tampering with witnesses in the Mueller ...

Surprise: Trump allegedly got his Ukraine conspiracy theory from the Russia-tied criminals on his campaign
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/11/04/surprise-trump-allegedly-got-his-ukraine-conspiracy-theory-russia-tied-criminals-his-campaign/
Nov 4, 2019 - Rick Gates, a former Manafort deputy and Trump campaign aide, told ... concluded that Kilimnik, Manafort's associate in Ukraine, had ongoing ties to ... theory to Trump that Russia did not actually interfere in the 2016 election.

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1197645784424030215
(http://jfkforum.com/images/TrumpUkraineKevinMcCarthy.jpg)

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tim Nickerson on November 23, 2019, 05:43:56 AM
Tim, does the offensive depiction you've posted of the chairman of the U.S. House of Rep. Intelligence Committee, who happens to be gay, indicate you are inside the Royell Storing alternative universe, or possibly an objection to his homosexuality, or merely an attempt at uninformed humor?

"Schiff and his wife Eve have two children, Alexa and Elijah."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Schiff#Personal_life

Title: Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
Post by: Tom Scully on November 23, 2019, 05:51:51 AM
"Schiff and his wife Eve have two children, Alexa and Elijah."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Schiff#Personal_life

I am in correct church, just in the wrong pew. This is the baseless, republican weapon.... I should have worded my question,
"long rumored by republican opposition to be a pedophile sexually abusing young boys." I recalled that smear and assumed he was gay, but not a child molester. Relieved that was not where you were coming from, sorry!

Quote
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/adam-schiff-pedophile-hoax/
Adam Schiff Pedophile Hoax: Baseless Claims Circulate About Congressman
False claims about U.S. Rep. Adam Schiff got exaggerated into even more outrageously inaccurate claims.
DAN EVON
PUBLISHED 20 NOVEMBER 2019

BTW, many are in the grip of this other "Democrats are pedophiles" hoax.... They are playing "for keeps."

Quote
a “High-Ranking Satanist” Like Obama
https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/10/25/christian-tv-host-rep-adam-schiff-is-a-high-ranking-satanist-like-obama/
Oct 25, 2019 - Adam Schiff of California has long been a favorite target for right-wing ... Once again, he claimed (with no evidence) that Schiff is a Satanic pedophile who ... against Donald Trump, which is to say McDonald's imagination is really ... that he didn't doubt rumors about Schiff being a “high-ranking Satanist,” ...

Quote
https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-inc-podcast-american-priority-conference-trump-national-doral-miami
TRUMP, INC.
Who Makes Money When a Bunch of Conspiracy Theorists Throw a Party at Trump’s Hotel?
The American Priority Conference at the Trump National Doral Miami last month was filled with pro-Trump conspiracies. The “Trump, Inc.” podcast was there for it.
by Alice Wilder and Matt Katz, WNYC Oct. 30, 4 a.m. EDT

Quote

Hours after an FBI warning about QAnon is published, a ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com › politics › 2019/08/02 › hours-after-an-fb...
Aug 2, 2019 - Before President Trump came to the stage at his rally in Cincinnati on Thursday, several other speakers warmed up the crowd. One was ...

Trump Campaign Ad Featu