JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Charles Collins on October 14, 2019, 03:03:09 PM
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Here’s a quote from Gus Rose that is the introduction of his interview in “No More Silence” by Larry Sneed. This speaks volumes to me. I can’t help but believe that if Oswald had lived to stand trial, and a jury had witnessed this description, it would have been very persuasive in helping to confirm that she believed the rifle was still there (until that moment).
“I could see what I believed was the imprint of a rifle. Though it may have been partly suggestive, something was there that made me think there was a rifle there. When I picked it up, it fell limp across my arm empty. At that point, Marina let out an audible gasp. I turned and looked at her and noticed that she was wide-eyed and pale. I thought for a moment that she might be about to faint. I now believe that at that point, with the rifle not being there, the full realization had soaked in . . .”
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“Though it may have been partly suggestive”. LOL. It was completely suggestive.
Not sure how Marina’s alleged gasp would help a jury determine who shot Kennedy though.
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“Though it may have been partly suggestive”. LOL. It was completely suggestive.
Not sure how Marina’s alleged gasp would help a jury determine who shot Kennedy though.
The reason he said partly suggestive is because Marina had just told him that the rifle was there.
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The reason he said partly suggestive is because Marina had just told him that the rifle was there.
No, Marina told him nothing of the kind. "Translator" Ruth Paine did..
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No, Marina told him nothing of the kind. "Translator" Ruth Paine did..
These are Gus’ words from that interview:
“With that, Marina came into the room, and I asked her some questions which were interpreted by Ruth Paine. Knowing that a rifle had been discovered on the sixth floor of the Book Depository right after the assassination, I asked her, “Does your husband own a rifle?” When she responded that he did, I asked, “Can you show it to me?” She said yes and motioned for me to follow her, which I did into the kitchen part of the house. She opened a door leading to the garage and pointed to a blanket which was rolled up and said, “That’s his rifle.””
Ruth wasn’t aware of the rifle at that point in time. So, it appears to me that Marina must have pointed it out.
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It's always been real hard for me to believe that Ruth didn't know there was a rifle stored in her garage.
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It's always been real hard for me to believe that Ruth didn't know there was a rifle stored in her garage.
Why?
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“Though it may have been partly suggestive”. LOL. It was completely suggestive.
Not sure how Marina’s alleged gasp would help a jury determine who shot Kennedy though.
You just got Oswald of the hook
Can he go now?
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You just got Oswald of the hook
Can he go now?
Yes, unless you have something better than Marina gasping.
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Yes, unless you have something better than Marina gasping.
... the fact that she gasped at all speaks for itself. Try to figure it out.
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... the fact that she gasped at all speaks for itself. Try to figure it out.
What I’ve figured out is that you’ll grasp at anything and call it evidence of murder.
Possibly.
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What I’ve figured out is that you’ll grasp at anything and call it evidence of murder.
Possibly.
Marina's gasp was the gateway
And no, I wouldn't try this case based on a solitary piece of evidence
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Can Charles (or anyone) provide an approximate time that the gasp occurred?
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Here’s a quote from Gus Rose that is the introduction of his interview in “No More Silence” by Larry Sneed. This speaks volumes to me. I can’t help but believe that if Oswald had lived to stand trial, and a jury had witnessed this description, it would have been very persuasive in helping to confirm that she believed the rifle was still there (until that moment).
“I could see what I believed was the imprint of a rifle. Though it may have been partly suggestive, something was there that made me think there was a rifle there. When I picked it up, it fell limp across my arm empty. At that point, Marina let out an audible gasp. I turned and looked at her and noticed that she was wide-eyed and pale. I thought for a moment that she might be about to faint. I now believe that at that point, with the rifle not being there, the full realization had soaked in . . .”
In the Priscilla McMillan book, "Marina and Lee", Marina's reaction is described as being a combination of shock over discovering the rifle was missing but also a realization that Oswald's odd behavior the day before now had an explanation.
From the McMillan account: "The blanket looked exactly as it always had, as if there were something bulky inside. As always, it was carefully tied in string. Marina shook all over, trying not to show her fright, as an officer stooped down to pick it up. It hung, limp, on either side of his arm.
Ruth looked at Marina. She had gone ashen.
"So it was Lee," Marina thought. "That is why he came last night." For Marina it was again one of those moments when kaleidoscopic and inexplicable occurrences suddenly clicked into place. She knew now why Lee had told her to buy "everything" she and the children needed, why he had left without kissing her good-bye."
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Can Charles (or anyone) provide an approximate time that the gasp occurred?
Page 128 of “Reclaiming History” says that the time of arrival at the Paine’s residence was 3:30 pm. I haven’t seen anything that leads me to believe that it took very long at all for them to get around to this.
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In the Priscilla McMillan book, Marina's reaction is described as being a combination of shock over the missing rifle but also a realization that Oswald's odd behavior the day before had a reason.
From the McMillan account: "The blanket looked exactly as it always had, as if there were something bulky inside. As always, it was carefully tied in string. Marina shook all over, trying not to show her fright, as an officer stooped down to pick it up. It hung, limp, on either side of his arm.
Ruth looked at Marina. She had gone ashen.
"So it was Lee," Marina thought. "That is why he came last night." For Marina it was again one of those moments when kaleidoscopic and inexplicable occurrences suddenly clicked into place. She knew now why Lee had told her to buy "everything" she and the children needed, why he had left without kissing her good-bye."
Ain't it amazing what LNs consider to be "evidence"
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In the Priscilla McMillan book, Marina's reaction is described as being a combination of shock over the missing rifle but also a realization that Oswald's odd behavior the day before had a reason.
From the McMillan account: "The blanket looked exactly as it always had, as if there were something bulky inside. As always, it was carefully tied in string. Marina shook all over, trying not to show her fright, as an officer stooped down to pick it up. It hung, limp, on either side of his arm.
Ruth looked at Marina. She had gone ashen.
"So it was Lee," Marina thought. "That is why he came last night." For Marina it was again one of those moments when kaleidoscopic and inexplicable occurrences suddenly clicked into place. She knew now why Lee had told her to buy "everything" she and the children needed, why he had left without kissing her good-bye."
Thanks Steve
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Page 128 of “Reclaiming History” says that the time of arrival at the Paine’s residence was 3:30 pm. I haven’t seen anything that leads me to believe that it took very long at all for them to get around to this.
Oswald's name had been on the media from 2.42pm. I'm sure DVP will correct me but I think I got it from him. You think Marina and Ruth were not aware of this nearly an hour after? Would Marina not check the blanket immediately? Wouldn't she have told Ruth about the rifle then? Wouldn’t Michael have called with the news? He arrived about 15 minutes after the cops.
What do you think?
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Oswald's name had been on the media from 2.42pm. I'm sure DVP will correct me but I think I got it from him. You think Marina and Ruth were not aware of this nearly an hour after? Would Marina not check the blanket immediately? Wouldn't she have told Ruth about the rifle then? Wouldn’t Michael have called with the news? He arrived about 15 minutes after the cops.
What do you think?
Here is what Gus said in that interview:
“As we walked toward the house, I could see that the door was open while the screen door was closed. I could also see a light flickering, apparently from a television in the room. When I approached the door, without knocking, this woman inside said, “Come on in. I’ve been expecting you.” I didn’t identify myself, stepped inside and asked, “Why were you expecting me?” “Oh,” she said, “I could tell you were a police officer, and I knew someone would be out here to talk to us about Lee as soon as I saw where the President was shot from.” Now, at that time, there was no mention made of his arrest because he had not yet been properly identified, and the name of the arrested person had not been released.”
Even if he was mistaken about the time of the name release. I think that if Marina did look for the rifle, she would have most likely have seen the blanket there appearing to still have the rifle inside. And thought that her concern was unfounded. And I believe that that was LHO’s purpose in leaving it looking that way.
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Here is what Gus said in that interview:
“As we walked toward the house, I could see that the door was open while the screen door was closed. I could also see a light flickering, apparently from a television in the room. When I approached the door, without knocking, this woman inside said, “Come on in. I’ve been expecting you.” I didn’t identify myself, stepped inside and asked, “Why were you expecting me?” “Oh,” she said, “I could tell you were a police officer, and I knew someone would be out here to talk to us about Lee as soon as I saw where the President was shot from.” Now, at that time, there was no mention made of his arrest because he had not yet been properly identified, and the name of the arrested person had not been released.”
Even if he was mistaken about the time of the name release. I think that if Marina did look for the rifle, she would have most likely have seen the blanket there appearing to still have the rifle inside. And thought that her concern was unfounded. And I believe that that was LHO’s purpose in leaving it looking that way.
I know what he said. I’ve read his (and Stovall's and Adamcek's) combined report. What about that of the Sherrif's officers who they were "waiting for"? What time did they believe they arrived? And while your thinking of that, how did Fritz find out about 1026 North Beckley? Was it from the phone number provided by Ruth during the Paine visit after 3.30?
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I know what he said. I’ve read his (and Stovall's and Adamcek's) combined report. What about that of the Sherrif's officers who they were "waiting for"? What time did they believe they arrived? And while your thinking of that, how did Fritz find out about 1026 North Beckley? Was it from the phone number provided by Ruth during the Paine visit after 3.30?
Why all the questions for me?
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Why all the questions for me?
Why not simply try to answer them, instead of trying to do a hit and run?
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Why all the questions for me?
Because you quoted Bugliosi. I believe that time is wrong. If it is correct the various commentaries on Marina'a reaction becomes doubtful. The timing fits better with 2.30 or so, no extended wait for Sherrif's to arrive. The question then becomes, why would all three detectives be associated with that incorrect time of event.
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Because you quoted Bugliosi. I believe that time is wrong. If it is correct the various commentaries on Marina'a reaction becomes doubtful. The timing fits better with 2.30 or so, no extended wait for Sherrif's to arrive. The question then becomes, why would all three detectives be associated with that incorrect time of event.
Okay, here is what Gus says in the interview:
“Immediately after that, Captain Fritz gave me an address where Oswald’s wife supposedly was. That’s all he gave me. So I left the witness sitting and my notes on my desk and got Officers Adamcik and Stovall to go with me to that address which was located in Irving. We also took two deputy sheriffs with us since the address was outside the city of Dallas and, as was customary with me, parked our cars a little beyond the house down the street.”
He didn’t mention a delay. I hope that helps.
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Here’s a quote from Gus Rose that is the introduction of his interview in “No More Silence” by Larry Sneed. This speaks volumes to me. ....
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Because you quoted Bugliosi. I believe that time is wrong. If it is correct the various commentaries on Marina'a reaction becomes doubtful. The timing fits better with 2.30 or so, no extended wait for Sherrif's to arrive. The question then becomes, why would all three detectives be associated with that incorrect time of event.
Okay, here is what Gus says in the interview:
.....
He didn’t mention a delay. I hope that helps.
Primary sources, folks. "The interview" took place long after the fact, to assist a for profit project. Sensation sells...
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190145/m1/1/med_res/)
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190145/m1/3/med_res/)
.........
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190145/m1/7/med_res/)
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Primary sources, folks. "The interview" took place long after the fact, to assist a for profit project. Sensation sells...
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190145/m1/1/med_res/)
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190145/m1/3/med_res/)
.........
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190145/m1/7/med_res/)
I assumed people know how to find primary sources Tom. It is the 40-minute wait I am questioning. Without it, Oswald's name had not likely been heard before they arrived at the door and I can believe the emotional response from Marina without it, I do not believe the responses or testimonies of either woman or Michael. I am questioning the "need" for that 40-minute gap to be inserted for them to listen to "The Girl from Iponema".
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Primary sources, folks. "The interview" took place long after the fact, to assist a for profit project. Sensation sells
to assist a for profit project
No, the project was not initially intended to be published. Here are some words by the author from the introduction and acknowledgements sections:
I had noticed that the majority of research had been based either on previous research or on theories formulated by the authors and that a minority of the books utilized personal interviews of those who were closely intertwined with the events of that weekend. Furthermore, in the books that did contain references to interviews, were the participants quoted accurately or were their words contorted to fit some author’s preconceived theory? It was at that point, that I decided to try to locate some of those participants and learn for myself what they might have to say.
...I was intrigued by who these “players of the game” were and sought to learn more about their backgrounds, many of whom, especially among the law enforcement personnel, were portrayed in numerous books and manuscripts as being either sinister or shadowy figures. I wanted to judge for myself the credibility of those primary sources without having to rely on the subjective opinions of others which permeated much of the material on the assassination.
...After planning my first trip to Dallas, a fellow teacher encouraged me to borrow his video camera to tape the interviews. Realizing the importance of preparation, I also brought an audio cassette recorder as a backup sound system to the camera, a 35mm camera for still shots, and reference books to have signed by those I encountered. For the interviews themselves, a question-answer format was prepared which was designed to elicit responses regarding their backgrounds prior to the assassination, the chronology of events of their activities during the weekend of November 22–24, 1963, their views regarding conspiracy theories, and what had transpired in their lives since the assassination.
...When I first began this project, I had no ax to grind or theory to promote. I was willing to talk with anyone who was receptive toward being interviewed. Not only did I want to personally record their stories, but it was hoped that certain “problem areas” of the assassination highlighted by conspiracy writers could be clarified or resolved. Many of these issues were presented to those interviewed, especially to the Dallas policemen, of whom much criticism has been leveled over the years. Not surprisingly I found that those least interested in the assassination were those same Dallas policemen. Being the butt of sarcasm and ridicule, some were reluctant to talk, reasoning that whatever they might say would be twisted or altered to fit some writer’s theory of conspiracy. In short, they were tired of having their words turned around and comments being taken out of context. Fortunately, that first year the interviews I had with former Dallas policemen James Leavelle, Paul Bentley, L.C. Graves, and Elmo Cunningham went extremely well and paved the way for future interviews with other policemen, several of whom had not been interviewed either by the Warren Commission or other researchers. They had stories to tell but for various reasons had either not been contacted or were unwilling to be interviewed prior to 1987. I was particularly interested in talking with the Dallas policemen since they had generally either been ignored by assassination writers or because they were extremely selective with whom they talked. As I was to learn, this reluctance to defend themselves has made many of them easy targets for accusations, innuendoes, and in some cases outright libel. When they were convinced that I was sincere and had no hidden agenda were they willing to speak with me. Surprisingly, very few expressed serious concern about speaking on camera, though a few were reluctant to have their words published, apparently not wanting to become involved in all the controversy that it might entail with most of the assassination writers who, in their opinions, are concerned with little other than self-aggrandizement and the profit motive. They did not want their names associated with “mystery writers.”
I originally did not intent to write a book. Instead, I merely was interested in making a series of video taped interviews which I could use in my classroom. When I reviewed the tapes after the first trip, I was sufficiently impressed with the quality of the interviews to justify another trip. And thus the process of preparation repeated itself the following summer. Interestingly, though, I did not realize the full measure of quality of the tapes until I began to transcribe them and to see the interview in printed form. It then became apparent that what I had were insights into the events that I had not seen previously published and were of such significance that I entertained the idea of writing a book myself. However, I did not want it to be another work based on personal opinions or theories as were so many of the previously published books. Instead, I decided to let the subject of the interview speak for himself or herself and allow the reader to evaluate for themselves the merit of each story and its significance to the assassination. In short, it would be an oral history of the John F. Kennedy assassination. Amazingly, no one else had attempted or at least completed such a project.
...Throughout the ten-year sojourn to and from Dallas, the foremost concern of most of those interviewed was that their stories be reported accurately and unaltered. It is with a sense of appreciation, obligation, and responsibility that I have attempted to achieve those wishes. LARRY A. SNEED
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Okay, here is what Gus says in the interview:
“Immediately after that, Captain Fritz gave me an address where Oswald’s wife supposedly was. That’s all he gave me. So I left the witness sitting and my notes on my desk and got Officers Adamcik and Stovall to go with me to that address which was located in Irving. We also took two deputy sheriffs with us since the address was outside the city of Dallas and, as was customary with me, parked our cars a little beyond the house down the street.”
He didn’t mention a delay. I hope that helps.
Hopefully you can see the difference between the book quote and the original statement. Bugliosi likely used the report. I contend that the 3.30pm time for greeting Marina is dubious.
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Thanks Steve
Sure, you're welcome.
It raises an obvious (to me) question: Why would there be a empty blanket shaped like that with the ends tied together? It's just an empty blanket. Why not fold it and just put it somewhere? Like this (photo of the actual blanket):
(http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/7781e9ff3912a3ddbf5450da4b9b7607558deae8/r=x393&c=520x390/local/-/media/USATODAY/USATODAY/2013/02/17/xxx-oswald-kennedy-newseu-3-4_3.jpg)
It's clear to me that somebody went through the motions of making it look like something was still inside the blanket. They "shaped" it to appear that way and they re-tied the empty ends of it.
Why? For what purpose? And who had "access" to this to do so? If there wasn't a rifle in it then what's an alternate explanation for the blanket being "shaped" and tied to make it appear something was still in it. Again, why?
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Primary sources, folks. "The interview" took place long after the fact, to assist a for profit project. Sensation sells...
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190145/m1/1/med_res/)
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190145/m1/3/med_res/)
.........
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190145/m1/7/med_res/)
Is there a reason you did not include page 3?
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Hopefully you can see the difference between the book quote and the original statement. Bugliosi likely used the report. I contend that the 3.30pm time for greeting Marina is dubious.
Yes, I see the difference. For what it is worth, I found the following at this web page: https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKpaine.htm (https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKpaine.htm)
According to fellow worker, Dave Noel, Michael Paine discussed the "character of assassins" a few hours before President John F. Kennedy was killed. He also returned to his home in Irving at 3.00 p.m. to find Dallas police officers searching the premises. He told the police: "As soon as I found out about it, I hurried over to see if I could help."
It isn't clear to me whether he is referring to the time Michael Paine left work, or the time he arrived at his home. My guess is that he left work at 3:00. How would a coworker know what time he arrived at home?
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Camping equipment.
What evidence is there that the Oswald's owned any actual camping equipment? Yes, I am aware that Michael Paine said that at first he thought it might be some sort of camping equipment. Is there any evidence whatsoever that they ever went camping? Lee Oswald lived for long stretches of time on unemployment checks. He had no car, no savings, no phone, no house. Yet he had camping equipment for what purpose?
Second, why would it be necessary to arrange the blanket to make it look like it was camping equipment? If there was a camping/tent pole in the blanket, why remove that pole and then make the blanket appear to look like the pole was still in it?
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What evidence is there that the Oswald's owned any actual camping equipment? Yes, I am aware that Michael Paine said that at first he thought it might be some sort of camping equipment. Is there any evidence whatsoever that they ever went camping? Lee Oswald lived for long stretches of time on unemployment checks. He had no car, no savings, no phone, no house. Yet he had camping equipment for what purpose?
Second, why would it be necessary to arrange the blanket to make it look like it was camping equipment? If there was a camping/tent pole in the blanket, why remove that pole and then make the blanket appear to look like the pole was still in it?
Exactly.
On the other hand, maybe Marina's gasp was at the thought of never getting to go camping again
;)
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Sure, you're welcome.
It raises an obvious (to me) question: Why would there be a empty blanket shaped like that with the ends tied together? It's just an empty blanket. Why not fold it and just put it somewhere? Like this (photo of the actual blanket):
(http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/7781e9ff3912a3ddbf5450da4b9b7607558deae8/r=x393&c=520x390/local/-/media/USATODAY/USATODAY/2013/02/17/xxx-oswald-kennedy-newseu-3-4_3.jpg)
It's clear to me that somebody went through the motions of making it look like something was still inside the blanket. They "shaped" it to appear that way and they re-tied the empty ends of it.
Why? For what purpose? And who had "access" to this to do so? If there wasn't a rifle in it then what's an alternate explanation for the blanket being "shaped" and tied to make it appear something was still in it. Again, why?
Were both ends still tied Steve? My recollection was that one end had loose string.
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Yes, I see the difference. For what it is worth, I found the following at this web page: https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKpaine.htm (https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKpaine.htm)
According to fellow worker, Dave Noel, Michael Paine discussed the "character of assassins" a few hours before President John F. Kennedy was killed. He also returned to his home in Irving at 3.00 p.m. to find Dallas police officers searching the premises. He told the police: "As soon as I found out about it, I hurried over to see if I could help."
It isn't clear to me whether he is referring to the time Michael Paine left work, or the time he arrived at his home. My guess is that he left work at 3:00. How would a coworker know what time he arrived at home?
What did Michael say to the WC? When did Ruth and Marina say? Buddy Wathers testified too. When did the first cops arrive at 1026 North Beckley? Are these times all consistent with 3.30 entry for Rose and the others? I believe that time to be too late because there never was a 40 minute delay waiting for Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford.
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What did Michael say to the WC? When did Ruth and Marina say? Buddy Wathers testified too. When did the first cops arrive at 1026 North Beckley? Are these times all consistent with 3.30 entry for Rose and the others? I believe that time to be too late because there never was a 40 minute delay waiting for Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford.
You are the one with the doubts. And I would guess that you already have the answers to these items. So why don’t you just tell us?
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Here’s a quote from Gus Rose that is the introduction of his interview in “No More Silence” by Larry Sneed. This speaks volumes to me. I can’t help but believe that if Oswald had lived to stand trial, and a jury had witnessed this description, it would have been very persuasive in helping to confirm that she believed the rifle was still there (until that moment).
“I could see what I believed was the imprint of a rifle. Though it may have been partly suggestive, something was there that made me think there was a rifle there. When I picked it up, it fell limp across my arm empty. At that point, Marina let out an audible gasp. I turned and looked at her and noticed that she was wide-eyed and pale. I thought for a moment that she might be about to faint. I now believe that at that point, with the rifle not being there, the full realization had soaked in . . .”
“I could see what I believed was the imprint of a rifle. Though it may have been partly suggestive, something was there that made me think there was a rifle there. When I picked it up, it fell limp across my arm empty.
I don't believe this happened....I believe Marina lead the police to the garage and pointed to the blanket on the floor ....Let's see what she told the WC.
Mr. ROSE. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall wen into the bedroom of Marina Oswald--Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well, ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle." I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said--first she said Marina said "No," and then a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does have." So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says that that's where his rifle is." Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or not.
Mrs. OSWALD. I said that I saw--for the first and last time I saw the rifle about a week after I had come to Mrs. Paine.
But, as I said, the rifle was wrapped in a blanket, and I was sure when the police had come that the rifle was still in the blanket, because it was all rolled together. And, therefore, when they took the blanket and the rifle was not in it, I was very much surprised.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see the rifle in a paper cover?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe for the Commission the place in the garage where the rifle was located?
Mrs. OSWALD. When you enter the garage from the street it was in the front part, the left.
Mr. RANKIN. By the left you mean left of the door?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is an overhead door and the rifle was to the left, on the floor.
It was always in the same place.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else close to the rifle that you recall?
Mrs. OSWALD. Next to it there were some next to the rifle there were some suitcases and Ruth had some paper barrels in the garage where the kids used to play.
Mr. RANKIN. The way the rifle was wrapped with a blanket, could you tell whether or not the rifle had been removed and the blanket just left there at any time?
Mrs. OSWALD. It always had the appearance of having something inside of it. But I only looked at it really once, and I was always sure the rifle was in it. Therefore, it is very hard to determine when the rifle was taken. I only
assumed that it was on Thursday, because Lee had arrived so unexpectedly for some reason.
We now know that the paper sack was not large enough to hold the rifle.....So How could Lee have transported a rifle?
Mr. RANKIN. Did you believe that the reason for his coming out to see you Thursday was to make up?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think there were two reasons. One was to make up with me, and the other to take the rifle. This is--this, of course, is not irreconcilable.
Mr. RANKIN. But you think he came to take the rifle because of what you learned since. Is that it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.
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“I could see what I believed was the imprint of a rifle. Though it may have been partly suggestive, something was there that made me think there was a rifle there. When I picked it up, it fell limp across my arm empty.
I don't believe this happened....I believe Marina lead the police to the garage and pointed to the blanket on the floor ....Let's see what she told the WC.
Did you only read the first post in this thread? We have already discussed what Marina did. But the WC testimony hasn’t shown up here yet. So knock yourself out.
Edit: I see that you edited your post to add the testimony instead of adding another one. Thanks but I don’t see any conflict.
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Oswald's name had been on the media from 2.42pm. I'm sure DVP will correct me but I think I got it from him. You think Marina and Ruth were not aware of this nearly an hour after? Would Marina not check the blanket immediately? Wouldn't she have told Ruth about the rifle then? Wouldn’t Michael have called with the news? He arrived about 15 minutes after the cops.
What do you think?
I think you ask some very provocative questions....."You think Marina and Ruth were not aware (that Lee had been named, and his picture was on the TV, as the suspect)'of this nearly an hour after?
Based on the fact that Marina readily admitted to the police that Lee had a rifle.... ( after Ruth had told the police "NO" he did not own a rifle) I don't believe that Marina thought that Lee was an assassin.
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You are the one with the doubts. And I would guess that you already have the answers to these items. So why don’t you just tell us?
I already have told you what reading the various statements has lead me to conclude. The 40 minute wait was invented by Fritz's men for their report. I wonder why that was necessary? It would seem that Walthers was talking to Decker about Oswald's rooming house phone number before 3pm. I wonder what other information about the what was known about the crime scene was being relayed back and forth at that time from Irving to Dallas and vice versa. Handguns, chicken lunches and long sacks maybe. Perhaps ask about the guy who gave him a lift to work.
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What did Michael say to the WC? When did Ruth and Marina say? Buddy Wathers testified too. When did the first cops arrive at 1026 North Beckley? Are these times all consistent with 3.30 entry for Rose and the others? I believe that time to be too late because there never was a 40 minute delay waiting for Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford.
When did the first cops arrive at 1026 North Beckley? Are these times all consistent with 3.30 entry for Rose and the others?
On page 116 of “Reclaiming History,” it states that LHO told Fritz about the 1026 Beckley address between 2:25 and 2:30. And he sends Cunningham Senkel and Potts there to search his room. So I don’t see why you believe that the time of their arrival at 1026 North Beckley is relevant to this discussion.
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On page 116 of “Reclaiming History,” it states -- LOL
Have you actually checked any of this?
is relevant to this discussion -- DOH
Weatherford claims he picked up the phone number from Ruth Paine's phone book, passed it on to Walthers who passed it on to Decker.
In time to arrive at Beckley?
Simple cross check, but you probably wouldn't know what that means.
Have you actually checked any of this?
Yes, have you?
Weatherford claims he picked up the phone number from Ruth Paine's phone book, passed it on to Walthers who passed it on to Decker.
In time to arrive at Beckley?
It is irrelevant because LHO had already given the address to Fritz and Fritz had already sent men to that address.
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When did the first cops arrive at 1026 North Beckley? Are these times all consistent with 3.30 entry for Rose and the others?
On page 116 of “Reclaiming History,” it states that LHO told Fritz about the 1026 Beckley address between 2:25 and 2:30. And he sends Cunningham Senkel and Potts there to search his room. So I don’t see why you believe that the time of their arrival at 1026 North Beckley is relevant to this discussion.
Is there any footnote for that quote? Their time of arrival is obviously significant. I contend that by 3.30pm, Marina, Ruth, Michael and Linnie May would all have been aware he was in custody via media.
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Quote from: Louis Earl on October 14, 2019, 02:58:32 PM It's always been real hard for me to believe that Ruth didn't know there was a rifle stored in her garage.
Why?
Simple.... Michael Paine, the children, and Marina never did tell her---they all kept it a secret from Ruthie ;)
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When did the first cops arrive at 1026 North Beckley? Are these times all consistent with 3.30 entry for Rose and the others?
On page 116 of “Reclaiming History,” it states that LHO told Fritz about the 1026 Beckley address between 2:25 and 2:30. And he sends Cunningham Senkel and Potts there to search his room. So I don’t see why you believe that the time of their arrival at 1026 North Beckley is relevant to this discussion.
Mr. BALL. Yes. What did you do after you had sent the officers to Irving?
Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet.
Mr. BALL. Some officer told you that he thought this man had a room on Beckley?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
That’s what Fritz actually testified.
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Is there any footnote for that quote? Their time of arrival is obviously significant. I contend that by 3.30pm, Marina, Ruth, Michael and Linnie May would all have been aware he was in custody via media.
Source note 605. CE 2003, 24 H 286
I believe that there were 4 toddlers in the house. If you have ever been around kids that age, you might understand that the two women most likely had to devote a large percentage of their attention to the kids. And might have missed some of the media coverage. I do agree that the 40-minute delay is questionable. But I don’t see that it makes much difference either way.
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Source note 605. CE 2003, 24 H 286
I believe that there were 4 toddlers in the house. If you have ever been around kids that age, you might understand that the two women most likely had to devote a large percentage of their attention to the kids. And might have missed some of the media coverage. I do agree that the 40-minute delay is questionable. But I don’t see that it makes much difference either way.
There is no need to guess. What did Marina, Ruth and Michael say? Aren’t you curious? Perhaps Vince made some other conversations about them attending to the children.
Buell knew about Oswald from listening to the radio on his way to visit his father in law in hospital. He left the TSBD as soon as he could be released. Went directly to the Irving hospital and not long after was apprehended by Rose and Stovall. Do you think that was before or after 3.30pm?
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There is no need to guess. What did Marina, Ruth and Michael say? Aren’t you curious? Perhaps Vince made some other conversations about them attending to the children.
No I am not that curious. I see no reason to be.
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No I am not that curious. I see no reason to be.
If you don’t want to look, how can you see?
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Mr. BALL. Yes. What did you do after you had sent the officers to Irving?
Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet.
Mr. BALL. Some officer told you that he thought this man had a room on Beckley?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
That’s what Fritz actually testified.
It really doesn’t matter to me whether LHO told Fritz or one of the officers who had started questioning LHO before Fritz returned to the office told him. He learned of the address and sent men there by 2:30. That makes your contention irrelevant.
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If you don’t want to look, how can you see?
I have looked far enough to see that your contention is irrelevant. No need to pursue it further.
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Probably the worst nonsense you've posted -- in this thread.
Are you smoking the same spombleprofglidnoctobuns as Chapman?
I didn’t expect you to make any sense of it. That requires a functional brain.
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It really doesn’t matter to me whether LHO told Fritz or one of the officers who had started questioning LHO before Fritz returned to the office told him. He learned of the address and sent men there by 2:30. That makes your contention irrelevant.
If the officer was someone informed by Decker who was informed by Walthers? Maybe Fritz learned of this sometime after commencing the interrogation. He doesn’t seem all that clear in his recollection does he now.
The whole point of this is that I am trying to support your original point. Don’t you see that? It’s just that Vince (or his ghostwriters) didn’t dig deep enough and used 3.30pm from Rose's report. Hopefully you can see just because it's in RH it might not be the way it happened. Facts need to be cross checked from primary documents.
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If the officer was someone informed by Decker who was informed by Walthers? Maybe Fritz learned of this sometime after commencing the interrogation. He doesn’t seem all that clear in his recollection does he now.
The whole point of this is that I am trying to support your original point. Don’t you see that? It’s just that Vince (or his ghostwriters) didn’t dig deep enough and used 3.30pm from Rose's report. Hopefully you can see just because it's in RH it might not be the way it happened. Facts need to be cross checked from primary documents.
If the officer was someone informed by Decker who was informed by Walthers
I haven’t seen any evidence that that is the case.
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Mrs. PAINE - I fixed breakfast for myself and my children, turned on the television set to hear President Kennedy speak in Fort Worth, and had breakfast there. I left the house about 9 with my little girl and boy, because she had a dentist appointment, the little girl. I left the television set on, feeling that Marina might not think to turn it on, but I knew that she would be interested to see President Kennedy.
I then was gone until nearly noon, 11:30 or so, both to the dentist and on some errands following that, came back and there was coverage of the fact of the motorcade in Dallas, but there was no television cameras showing it, as you know, and. Marina thanked me for having left the television set on. She said she woke up in kind of a bad mood, but she had seen the arrival of President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy at the airport in Dallas, and had been thrilled with this occasion and with the greeting he had received, and it had lifted her spirits.
Very shortly after this time, I had only just begun to prepare the lunch, the announcement was made that the President had been shot, and I translated this to Marina. She had not caught it from the television statement. And I was crying as I did the translation. And then we sat down and waited at the television set, no longer interested in the preparing of lunch, and waited to hear further word.
I got out some candles and lit them, and my little girl also lighted a candle, and Marina said to me, "Is that a way of praying?", and I said "Yes, it is, just my own way." And it was well over an hour before we heard definitely that the President was dead.
Mr. JENNER - How did that come to your attention?
Mrs. PAINE - It was announced on the television. I think it was even still in the intervening time. It was announced on the television that the shot which was supposed to have killed the President was fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building on Elm.
Mr. JENNER - Did you communicate that to her?
Mrs. PAINE - Marina at this time was in the yard hanging some clothes. I recall going out to her and telling her this.
Mr. JENNER - What did she say?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't believe she said anything. I then also--
Mr. JENNER - Excuse me. You say "I don't believe she said anything." Is it your recollection?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall anything at all that she said.
Mr. JENNER - Would you--
Mr. McCLOY - You told her that you had heard over the television?
Mrs. PAINE - I heard that the shot had been made--
Mr. McCLOY - Coming from the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. PAINE - Schoolbook depository, and I believe I also said I didn't know there was a building on Elm.
Senator COOPER - Why did you go out to tell her, this fact?
Mrs. PAINE - I felt this was terribly close, somebody working in that building had been there. I thought Lee might be able to say somewhat about what happened, had been close to the event. This was my thought, that we would know somebody who would be able to give or possibly give a first-hand.
Senator COOPER - Did you have any thought at all that Lee Oswald might have been the man who fired the shot?
Mrs. PAINE - Absolutely none; no.
Mr. JENNER - Why was that, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE - I had never thought of him as a violent man. He had never said anything against President Kennedy, nor anything about President Kennedy. I had no idea that he had a gun. There was nothing that I had seen about him that indicated a man with that kind of grudge or hostility.
Mr. McCLOY - But you told this to Marina because of the association of Lee Oswald with the schoolbook depository?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. I then proceeded to hang some clothes.
Mr. JENNER - She did not comment?
Mrs. PAINE - She did not comment.
Mr. JENNER - Made no comment?
Mrs. PAINE - That is my recollection, that she made no comment. I then helped hang the clothes. My recollection skips then to being again in front of the television listening, and it was then that we heard that the President was. dead. We were beth sitting on the sofa.
Mr. JENNER - Marina had come in from the yard?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - From the hanging of the clothes?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall whether we came in together or whether she preceded me into the house while I finished hanging up the clothes. But I do recall then next sitting on the sofa when the announcement was definitely made that the President was dead. And she said to me "What a terrible thing this was for Mrs. Kennedy and for the two children." I remember her words were, "Now the two children will have to grow up without the father." It was very shortly after this we were still sitting on the sofa.
Mr. McCLOY - Just take a little time and compose yourself.
Mrs. PAINE - My neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, came in, really I think to see if we had heard, and--
Senator COOPER - Why don't you rest a few minutes?
Mrs. PAINE - I can proceed. I recall my feeling of anger with her for not being more upset, or she didn't appear to me to be, any more than reporting a remarkable news item. Then it was shortly after that that the bell rang and I went to the door and met some six officers from the sheriff's office and police station.
Mr. JENNER - Was this approximately 3:30 p.m.?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, I think it was earlier, but I wouldn't be certain. I know that we had put our children to bed. They were all taking a nap, though I am not certain. Yes, my little girl was asleep also. I cried after I had heard that the President was dead, and my little girl was upset, too, always taking it from me more than from any understanding of the situation. And she cried herself to sleep on the sofa, and I moved her to her bed, and Christopher was already asleep in his crib. June was in bed asleep.
Mr. JENNER - Was Marina emotional at all? Did she cry?
Mrs. PAINE - No. She said to me, "I feel very badly also, but we seem to show that we are upset in different ways." She did not actually cry.
Mr. McCLOY - May I go back a moment there, if I may. You said you were Sitting on the sofa--that she and you were sitting on the sofa. While you were listening or looking at the television, was there any announcement over the television of a suspicion being cast at Lee?
Mrs. PAINE - It had just been announced that they had caught someone in a theatre, but there was no name given.
Mr. McCLOY - So up to this point there was no suggestion that Lee was involved?
Mrs. PAINE - No; not until the time the officers came to the door.
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I have looked far enough to see that your contention is irrelevant. No need to pursue it further.
If the officer was someone informed by Decker who was informed by Walthers
I haven't seen any evidence that that is the case.
I haven't seen any evidence that that is the case.
With no need to pursue it further?.... what a surprise!
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If the officer was someone informed by Decker who was informed by Walthers
I haven’t seen any evidence that that is the case.
Well I am sorry they failed to interrogate Fritz further. These guys just seem to forget lots of little things. I wonder why Vince made up the conversation where Oswald told Fritz.....much neater isn’t it? Even footnoted.....wonder what that says.
"… You better watch out
There may be dogs about
I've looked over Jordan, and I have seen
Things are not what they seem…"
Pink Floyd
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If the officer was someone informed by Decker who was informed by Walthers? Maybe Fritz learned of this sometime after commencing the interrogation. He doesn’t seem all that clear in his recollection does he now.
The whole point of this is that I am trying to support your original point. Don’t you see that? It’s just that Vince (or his ghostwriters) didn’t dig deep enough and used 3.30pm from Rose's report. Hopefully you can see just because it's in RH it might not be the way it happened. Facts need to be cross checked from primary documents.
The whole point of this is that I am trying to support your original point. Don’t you see that? It’s just that Vince (or his ghostwriters) didn’t dig deep enough and used 3.30pm from Rose's report. Hopefully you can see just because it's in RH it might not be the way it happened. Facts need to be cross checked from primary documents.
I get it. You pointed out a conflict. Thanks. That seems to be enough for most CTs to start expounding their theories (innuendo) of sinister explanations. As you can hopefully see, there is most likely going to be some conflicting accounts. (If there were none, I would probably become suspicious of a coverup.) If you come up with credible evidence of sinister actions please let us know.
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The whole point of this is that I am trying to support your original point. Don’t you see that? It’s just that Vince (or his ghostwriters) didn’t dig deep enough and used 3.30pm from Rose's report. Hopefully you can see just because it's in RH it might not be the way it happened. Facts need to be cross checked from primary documents.
I get it. You pointed out a conflict. Thanks. That seems to be enough for most CTs to start expounding their theories (innuendo) of sinister explanations. As you can hopefully see, there is most likely going to be some conflicting accounts. (If there were none, I would probably become suspicious of a coverup.) If you come up with credible evidence of sinister actions please let us know.
At least one of will keep checking things. You can keep posting items that you find reassuring to your established position. But if you do, I hope you don’t mind if I point out some things that appear inconsistent from primary sources. That 40 minute wait was strange after all wasnt it. I wonder why it needed to be created.
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Source note 605. CE 2003, 24 H 286
There's nothing in 24H286 that says that Oswald told Fritz about the 1026 Beckley address between 2:25 and 2:30.
(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pages/WH_Vol24_0152b.gif)
Bad Vince.
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There's nothing in 24H286 that says that Oswald told Fritz about the 1026 Beckley address between 2:25 and 2:30.
(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pages/WH_Vol24_0152b.gif)
Bad Vince.
Seems like some Stone "poetic licence" to me.
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I haven't seen any evidence that that is the case.
With no need to pursue it further?.... what a surprise!
This is something that Colin is suggesting. If he has any evidence that he is correct, then I am interested. If not, it would be ridiculous for me to go off on some wild goose chase looking for something that is only in his imagination.
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Well I am sorry they failed to interrogate Fritz further. These guys just seem to forget lots of little things. I wonder why Vince made up the conversation where Oswald told Fritz.....much neater isn’t it? Even footnoted.....wonder what that says.
"… You better watch out
There may be dogs about
I've looked over Jordan, and I have seen
Things are not what they seem…"
Pink Floyd
If all you have is innuendo, you are wasting everyone’s time.
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There's nothing in 24H286 that says that Oswald told Fritz about the 1026 Beckley address between 2:25 and 2:30.
(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pages/WH_Vol24_0152b.gif)
Bad Vince.
Y’all love to find conflicting information. And you get a brownie point for that. What have you accomplished other than pointing out that Fritz’s memory of who told him might not agree with what is written in RH?
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Quote from: Colin Crow on Today at 03:24:12 PM
-snip-
Mr. McCLOY - So up to this point there was no suggestion that Lee was involved?
Mrs. PAINE - No; not until the time the officers came to the door.
Signature Ruth. Note how sharp she was back in the day. Best prepared, or rehearsed, witness hands down.
Indeed.... and yet, according to the report of the officers, she greeted Gus Rose with words like; "I was expecting you".....
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At least one of will keep checking things. You can keep posting items that you find reassuring to your established position. But if you do, I hope you don’t mind if I point out some things that appear inconsistent from primary sources. That 40 minute wait was strange after all wasnt it. I wonder why it needed to be created.
I don’t mind. I only ask that you explain the inconsistency instead of suggesting that I should start looking for one without knowing what I am supposed to be looking for.
The 40-minute wait is questionable. And thanks for pointing it out. Jumping to a conclusion that it needed to be created for some unknown sinister reason is only the typical innuendo though.
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Quote from: Colin Crow on Today at 03:24:12 PM
Indeed.... and yet, according to the report of the officers, she greeted Gus Rose with words like; "I was expecting you".....
Mr. McCLOY - So up to this point there was no suggestion that Lee was involved?
Mrs. PAINE - No; not until the time the officers came to the door.
If anybody believes that Ruth Paine wasn't a damned liar.... Please explain why she answered Mr Mc Cloy as she did.
she greeted Gus Rose with words like; "I was expecting you".....
Ruth and Marina had been watching the TV... Lee Oswald's picture and name had been televised, so the arrival of the police wouldn't have been unexpected.
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This in a nut shell shows why the WC had nothing to fear from the lazy LN crowd. Researchers look for any inconsistency, then try to work out why it exists.
It's beyond questionable. Fritz met with Decker and discussed the case immediately after having been tipped off by Truly. This means Fritz would have known he needed some of Decker's men while talking to Decker. Decker would have notified his guys and dispatched them to arrive in sync with the Fritz detectives. Elementary.
This in a nut shell shows why the WC had nothing to fear from the lazy LN crowd. Researchers look for any inconsistency, then try to work out why it exists.
Yet, after almost 56-years of trying, there is no credible evidence of a conspiracy. Why don't you try to work out why that exists?
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Your attempt to divert from the fact you couldn't work out the fake 40 minute delay has been noted and was expected.
You avoid facing the reality that it really isn't very important unless you can "work out" why it is supposed to be.
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Paranoia runs amok in CT Kiddie Central
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This in a nut shell shows why the WC had nothing to fear from the lazy LN crowd. Researchers look for any inconsistency, then try to work out why it exists.
It's beyond questionable. Fritz met with Decker and discussed the case immediately after having been tipped off by Truly. This means Fritz would have known he needed some of Decker's men while talking to Decker. Decker would have notified his guys and dispatched them to arrive in sync with the Fritz detectives. Elementary.
Irving,Texas, ..was out of the DPD's jurisdiction. Dallas police had no legal right to be entering homes and searching in Irving. Decker was the Sheriff and Irving was in his jurisdiction. The DPD grabbed evidence from the Paine house and garage that they had no legal authority to take. They claimed that Ruth Paine had given them the evidence, but Ruth Paine had no legal right to give them any of the Oswald's possessions.
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Y’all love to find conflicting information. And you get a brownie point for that. What have you accomplished other than pointing out that Fritz’s memory of who told him might not agree with what is written in RH?
It's worse than that. Vince claimed that Oswald told Fritz about the 1026 Beckley address between 2:25 and 2:30, and his cited source for that information is a document that doesn't actually say that. Which is why it's important to actually follow the citations when an author makes a claim like that. Vince was either incredibly sloppy or he was hoping that nobody would check.
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Yet, after almost 56-years of trying, there is no credible evidence of a conspiracy. Why don't you try to work out why that exists?
The "credible" qualifier just allows you to disregard anything that doesn't fit in to your narrative.
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It's worse than that. Vince claimed that Oswald told Fritz about the 1026 Beckley address between 2:25 and 2:30, and his cited source for that information is a document that doesn't actually say that. Which is why it's important to actually follow the citations when an author makes a claim like that. Vince was either incredibly sloppy or he was hoping that nobody would check.
Fritz wanted it to appear that Lee was uncooperative and evasive.....When in reality Lee himself told Fritz that he rented a room at 1026 N. Beckley.
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Well I am sorry they failed to interrogate Fritz further. These guys just seem to forget lots of little things. I wonder why Vince made up the conversation where Oswald told Fritz.....much neater isn’t it? Even footnoted.....wonder what that says.
"… You better watch out
There may be dogs about
I've looked over Jordan, and I have seen
Things are not what they seem…"
Pink Floyd
These guys just seem to forget lots of little things
LOL
Is there anything in your life that isn't larded with sinister intent?
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It's worse than that. Vince claimed that Oswald told Fritz about the 1026 Beckley address between 2:25 and 2:30, and his cited source for that information is a document that doesn't actually say that. Which is why it's important to actually follow the citations when an author makes a claim like that. Vince was either incredibly sloppy or he was hoping that nobody would check.
The questions that Colin asked that I responded with the source note for were:
What did Michael say to the WC? When did Ruth and Marina say? Buddy Wathers testified too. When did the first cops arrive at 1026 North Beckley? Are these times all consistent with 3.30 entry for Rose and the others? I believe that time to be too late because there never was a 40 minute delay waiting for Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford.
Is there any footnote for that quote? Their time of arrival is obviously significant. I contend that by 3.30pm, Marina, Ruth, Michael and Linnie May would all have been aware he was in custody via media.
My answer was:
When did the first cops arrive at 1026 North Beckley? Are these times all consistent with 3.30 entry for Rose and the others?
On page 116 of “Reclaiming History,” it states that LHO told Fritz about the 1026 Beckley address between 2:25 and 2:30. And he sends Cunningham Senkel and Potts there to search his room. So I don’t see why you believe that the time of their arrival at 1026 North Beckley is relevant to this discussion.
As you can see I was merely showing that the time of the arrival of the officers at the Paine's was not relevant to the time of the arrival of the officers at the North Beckley address. Then Colin relpied:
Mr. BALL. Yes. What did you do after you had sent the officers to Irving?
Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet.
Mr. BALL. Some officer told you that he thought this man had a room on Beckley?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
That’s what Fritz actually testified.
However, if Colin had been complete (and/or honest) in his "research" he would have found that the testimony of Fritz didn't end there. Please read on past where Colin left off and you will see what Bugliosi based his interpretation on. The testimony is a little convoluted, as many of them are, and I am currently unable to cut and paste it here, so you will have to look it up yourself. However, Bugliosi's interpretation appears reasonable to me.
The prior footnote in RH was 604. 4 H 207, 210,214 WCT John Will Fritz. That is the source note for the part of the dialogue concerning how Fritz obtained the address. The 605. CE 2003, 24 H 286 source note is an additional source that confirms the officers were sent to the North Beckley address (which is the question I was responding to when I posted it).
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The "credible" qualifier just allows you to disregard anything that doesn't fit in to your narrative.
Have you ever seen the connect the dots games? Where you connect the dots (periods) then see what the picture is?
The CT version has no dots (periods), only question marks.
8)
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How unfortunate Iacoletti called your bluff...
Thumb1:
Further comment by Iacoletti:
He jumped to conclusions without researching it for himself (see my latest responce to him. Typical...
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The questions that Colin asked that I responded with the source note for were:
My answer was:
As you can see I was merely showing that the time of the arrival of the officers at the Paine's was not relevant to the time of the arrival of the officers at the North Beckley address. Then Colin relpied:
However, if Colin had been complete (and/or honest) in his "research" he would have found that the testimony of Fritz didn't end there. Please read on past where Colin left off and you will see what Bugliosi based his interpretation on. The testimony is a little convoluted, as many of them are, and I am currently unable to cut and paste it here, so you will have to look it up yourself. However, Bugliosi's interpretation appears reasonable to me.
The prior footnote in RH was 604. 4 H 207, 210,214 WCT John Will Fritz. That is the source note for the part of the dialogue concerning how Fritz obtained the address. The 605. CE 2003, 24 H 286 source note is an additional source that confirms the officers were sent to the North Beckley address (which is the question I was responding to when I posted it).
So kind of you to question my honesty Charles. While the questioning of Fritz does not make it clear, it certainly implies that an officer indicated Oswald has an address on Beckley prior to Oswald confirming it. Fritz did not remember whether that information was passed on prior to commencing the first interrogation or during that event. It occurred outside his office.
We know that about 15 minutes after the arrival of the cops at the Paine’s, Walthers related the roominghouse phone number back to Decker and the address was cross checked from that. Surely it is possible that this was how Fritz was informed. Alternatively the was a mystery officer who knew about the Beckley address independently. As I said, it is unfortunate that the officer was not identified so that we could be certain how the information was obtained.
Charles, I was not questioning the recollections expressed by Rose in your original post, merely when they occurred. The 3.30pm time frame makes no sense to me and I question the need for a 40 minute wait. I can find no other documentation to suggest it occurred.
The point I would like to pursue is the notion that information was being passed from Irving to Dallas by phone. Do people think that there was information flow the other way? Specifically information about the crime scene. The rifle, the lunch, the long sack and that Frazier had taken him to work. I wonder if the other TSBD employees had notice whether Buell had driven him to work that day.
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However, if Colin had been complete (and/or honest) in his "research" he would have found that the testimony of Fritz didn't end there. Please read on past where Colin left off and you will see what Bugliosi based his interpretation on. The testimony is a little convoluted, as many of them are, and I am currently unable to cut and paste it here, so you will have to look it up yourself. However, Bugliosi's interpretation appears reasonable to me.
Ok, so Bugliosi doesn't footnote this claim at all. He just creates an imagined dialogue based on Fritz's testimony and labels it 2:25 PM.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him anything about his address or did he volunteer the address?
Mr. FRITZ. He volunteered the address at Beckley?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I will tell you, whether we asked him or told him one, he never did deny it, he never did deny the Beckley Street address at all. The only thing was he didn't know whether it was north or south.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether it was north or south?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, but he didn't know. But from the description of surroundings we could tell it was North Beckley.
Mr. BALL. Up to that time you hadn't sent any men out to North Beckley, had you?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I sent them out there real soon and Officer Potts called me back from out there and talked to me on the telephone and gave me a report from out there on the telephone, and I am sure that that is the time that he told me about the way he was registered, and I asked Oswald about why he was registered under this other name.
Mr. BALL. What other name?
Mr. FRITZ. Of O. L. Lee.
Mr. BALL. O. H. Lee?
Mr. FRITZ. O. H. Lee. He said, well, the lady didn't understand him, she put it down there and he just left it that way.
Bugliosi:
Fritz asks Oswald if he lives in Irving.
"No," Oswald replies. "I've got a room in Oak Cliff."
"I thought you lived in Irving?" Fritz asks, a little confused. Oswald says, no, he lives
at 1026 Beckley. Although he doesn't know whether the address is North or South Beckley,
Fritz and his detectives can tell from Oswald's description of the area that it's North
Beckley.
"Who lives in Irving?" Fritz asks.
"My wife is staying out there with friends," Oswald says.604 Fritz steps out into the
outer office and instructs Lieutenant Cunningham of the Forgery Bureau, along with
Detectives Billy Senkel and Walter Potts, to go out to 1026 North Beckley and search
Oswald's rented room.605
Note that the 604 footnote is on the statement "My wife is staying out there with friends".
Fritz's handwritten notes don't have anything about the rooming house address. And also Fritz in his testimony waffles over whether Oswald gave him the address or they already had it and asked Oswald. Besides, Vince doesn't say why he states that his imagined dialogue took place at 2:25.
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Have you ever seen the connect the dots games? Where you connect the dots (periods) then see what the picture is?
Yes, and if you randomly connect dots or ignore some of the dots, or add extra dots that aren't there then you get the wrong result.
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He jumped to conclusions without researching it for himself (see my latest responce to him. Typical...
I trusted that you were reporting the correct footnote. My mistake for taking your word for anything.
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I trusted that you were reporting the correct footnote. My mistake for taking your word for anything.
As I explained earlier, I reported the correct source note for the answer to the question that Colin asked.
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Ok, so Bugliosi doesn't footnote this claim at all. He just creates an imagined dialogue based on Fritz's testimony and labels it 2:25 PM.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him anything about his address or did he volunteer the address?
Mr. FRITZ. He volunteered the address at Beckley?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I will tell you, whether we asked him or told him one, he never did deny it, he never did deny the Beckley Street address at all. The only thing was he didn't know whether it was north or south.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether it was north or south?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, but he didn't know. But from the description of surroundings we could tell it was North Beckley.
Mr. BALL. Up to that time you hadn't sent any men out to North Beckley, had you?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I sent them out there real soon and Officer Potts called me back from out there and talked to me on the telephone and gave me a report from out there on the telephone, and I am sure that that is the time that he told me about the way he was registered, and I asked Oswald about why he was registered under this other name.
Mr. BALL. What other name?
Mr. FRITZ. Of O. L. Lee.
Mr. BALL. O. H. Lee?
Mr. FRITZ. O. H. Lee. He said, well, the lady didn't understand him, she put it down there and he just left it that way.
Bugliosi:
Fritz asks Oswald if he lives in Irving.
"No," Oswald replies. "I've got a room in Oak Cliff."
"I thought you lived in Irving?" Fritz asks, a little confused. Oswald says, no, he lives
at 1026 Beckley. Although he doesn't know whether the address is North or South Beckley,
Fritz and his detectives can tell from Oswald's description of the area that it's North
Beckley.
"Who lives in Irving?" Fritz asks.
"My wife is staying out there with friends," Oswald says.604 Fritz steps out into the
outer office and instructs Lieutenant Cunningham of the Forgery Bureau, along with
Detectives Billy Senkel and Walter Potts, to go out to 1026 North Beckley and search
Oswald's rented room.605
Note that the 604 footnote is on the statement "My wife is staying out there with friends".
Fritz's handwritten notes don't have anything about the rooming house address. And also Fritz in his testimony waffles over whether Oswald gave him the address or they already had it and asked Oswald. Besides, Vince doesn't say why he states that his imagined dialogue took place at 2:25.
The source notes are properly done. And the time is noted in the testimony.
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As I explained earlier, I reported the correct source note for the answer to the question that Colin asked.
Can the LNs please send their A team back in..... the currently line up is losing credibility fast.
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The source notes are properly done. And the time is noted in the testimony.
Not much help there:
Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I have it right here. Oswald was arrested at 1:40 and I think he was taken to the city hall about 2:15 and I started talking to him probably a little bit after that.
Mr. BALL. About what time?
Don't you have a time marked in your report there?
Mr. FRITZ. I think so.
Mr. BALL. Of 2:25.
Mr. FRITZ. 2:25?
Mr. BALL. On page 237 of your report, your report of Sims and Boyd refers to a time that he was brought to your room, and I believe 165.
Mr. FRITZ. My report, my report should have a report right there that should show it. This shows here 2:15 and I don't think that is right.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Baker's report on 165 gives the time also.
Mr. FRITZ. The nearest that I have here then would be shortly after 2:15 p.m.
Mr. BALL. You will notice that Sims and Boyd make it, state they brought him from the conference room to your office at about 2:20.
Mr. FRITZ. That might be all right because I have 2:15 here but I think 2:15 may be 5 or 10 minutes too early.
Mr. BALL. It was soon after you got there?
Mr. FRITZ. Soon after I got there.
Mr. BALL. That you brought him into your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
. . .
. . .
Mr. BALL. How long a time did you sit with Oswald and question him this first time?
Mr. FRITZ. The first time, not but a few minutes.
Mr. BALL. That was the time Hosty and Bookhout were there?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right. But sometimes when I would leave the office to do something else, it is hard to imagine how many things we had happening at the one time or how many different officers we had doing different things without seeing it but we were terribly busy.
I had called all my officers back on duty and had every one of them assigned to something, so going back and forth kept me pretty busy running back and forth at the time of questioning.
I don't know when I would leave, I suppose Mr. Bookhout and Mr. Hosty asked him a few questions, but I don't believe they questioned him a great deal while I was gone.
Mr. BALL. You said just a few minutes, what did you mean by that, 15, 20, 25?
Mr. FRITZ. It would be pretty hard to guess at a time like that because we weren't even quitting for lunch so I don't even know, time didn't mean much right at that time. For a few minutes, you would think 30 or 40 minutes the first time.
Mr. BALL. Thirty or forty minutes?
Mr. FRITZ. I am guessing at that time.
How Bugliosi bracketed that entire interrogation between 2:25 and 2:30 is anybody's guess.
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Not much help there:
Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I have it right here. Oswald was arrested at 1:40 and I think he was taken to the city hall about 2:15 and I started talking to him probably a little bit after that.
Mr. BALL. About what time?
Don't you have a time marked in your report there?
Mr. FRITZ. I think so.
Mr. BALL. Of 2:25.
Mr. FRITZ. 2:25?
Mr. BALL. On page 237 of your report, your report of Sims and Boyd refers to a time that he was brought to your room, and I believe 165.
Mr. FRITZ. My report, my report should have a report right there that should show it. This shows here 2:15 and I don't think that is right.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Baker's report on 165 gives the time also.
Mr. FRITZ. The nearest that I have here then would be shortly after 2:15 p.m.
Mr. BALL. You will notice that Sims and Boyd make it, state they brought him from the conference room to your office at about 2:20.
Mr. FRITZ. That might be all right because I have 2:15 here but I think 2:15 may be 5 or 10 minutes too early.
Mr. BALL. It was soon after you got there?
Mr. FRITZ. Soon after I got there.
Mr. BALL. That you brought him into your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
. . .
. . .
Mr. BALL. How long a time did you sit with Oswald and question him this first time?
Mr. FRITZ. The first time, not but a few minutes.
Mr. BALL. That was the time Hosty and Bookhout were there?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right. But sometimes when I would leave the office to do something else, it is hard to imagine how many things we had happening at the one time or how many different officers we had doing different things without seeing it but we were terribly busy.
I had called all my officers back on duty and had every one of them assigned to something, so going back and forth kept me pretty busy running back and forth at the time of questioning.
I don't know when I would leave, I suppose Mr. Bookhout and Mr. Hosty asked him a few questions, but I don't believe they questioned him a great deal while I was gone.
Mr. BALL. You said just a few minutes, what did you mean by that, 15, 20, 25?
Mr. FRITZ. It would be pretty hard to guess at a time like that because we weren't even quitting for lunch so I don't even know, time didn't mean much right at that time. For a few minutes, you would think 30 or 40 minutes the first time.
Mr. BALL. Thirty or forty minutes?
Mr. FRITZ. I am guessing at that time.
How Bugliosi bracketed that entire interrogation between 2:25 and 2:30 is anybody's guess.
He didn’t. Take a look. Don’t trust my word.
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He didn’t. Take a look. Don’t trust my word.
Fair enough. How Bugliosi decided that Oswald definitely told Fritz his Beckley Street address and did it between 2:25 and 2:30 is anybody's guess.
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So kind of you to question my honesty Charles. While the questioning of Fritz does not make it clear, it certainly implies that an officer indicated Oswald has an address on Beckley prior to Oswald confirming it. Fritz did not remember whether that information was passed on prior to commencing the first interrogation or during that event. It occurred outside his office.
We know that about 15 minutes after the arrival of the cops at the Paine’s, Walthers related the roominghouse phone number back to Decker and the address was cross checked from that. Surely it is possible that this was how Fritz was informed. Alternatively the was a mystery officer who knew about the Beckley address independently. As I said, it is unfortunate that the officer was not identified so that we could be certain how the information was obtained.
Charles, I was not questioning the recollections expressed by Rose in your original post, merely when they occurred. The 3.30pm time frame makes no sense to me and I question the need for a 40 minute wait. I can find no other documentation to suggest it occurred.
The point I would like to pursue is the notion that information was being passed from Irving to Dallas by phone. Do people think that there was information flow the other way? Specifically information about the crime scene. The rifle, the lunch, the long sack and that Frazier had taken him to work. I wonder if the other TSBD employees had notice whether Buell had driven him to work that day.
As you have implied I was not acting in good faith I would appreciate a response to my post above. Did Bugliosi suggest anywhere that there might have been an alternative for Fritz finding out about Beckley other than from Oswald? If not, I gather we grant him "poetic licence" but acknowledge it as such. It seems he was not complete too. I take my point as proven.
Bugliosi fails to tell the complete story, when the material is questioned the questioner's honesty is called. I seem to remember you live in an area that supports Trump. Looks like consistent style.
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Yes, and if you randomly connect dots or ignore some of the dots, or add extra dots that aren't there then you get the wrong result.
CTs only try to convert the dots into question marks. Problem is they don’t have any ink (evidence) to put in their pens.
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Mrs. PAINE - I can proceed. I recall my feeling of anger with her for not being more upset, or she didn't appear to me to be, any more than reporting a remarkable news item. Then it was shortly after that that the bell rang and I went to the door and met some six officers from the sheriff's office and police station.
Mr. JENNER - Was this approximately 3:30 p.m.?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, I think it was earlier, but I wouldn't be certain. I know that we had put our children to bed. They were all taking a nap, though I am not certain. Yes, my little girl was asleep also. I cried after I had heard that the President was dead, and my little girl was upset, too, always taking it from me more than from any understanding of the situation. And she cried herself to sleep on the sofa, and I moved her to her bed, and Christopher was already asleep in his crib. June was in bed asleep.
Mr. JENNER - Was Marina emotional at all? Did she cry?
Mrs. PAINE - No. She said to me, "I feel very badly also, but we seem to show that we are upset in different ways." She did not actually cry.
Mr. McCLOY - May I go back a moment there, if I may. You said you were Sitting on the sofa--that she and you were sitting on the sofa. While you were listening or looking at the television, was there any announcement over the television of a suspicion being cast at Lee?
Mrs. PAINE - It had just been announced that they had caught someone in a theatre, but there was no name given.
Mr. LIEBELER. I believe it was Fifth.
Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and I took our officer, Harry Weatherford, and we met Officer Adamcik that works for the city and Officer Rose and another one of their officers, but I don't recall his name right now--at this address in Irving and when we went to the door, what turned out to be Mrs. Paine just as soon as we stepped on the porch, she said, "Come on in, we've been expecting you, and we didn't have any trouble at all--we just went right on in and stared asking her--at that time it didn't appear that her or Mrs. Oswald, or Marina, who came up carrying one of the babies in the living room--it didn't appear that they knew that Oswald had been arrested at all--the way they talked.
The point is Charles, they didn't know it was Lee at the time the cops arrived. They were listening to the news (of course). It was not at 3.30pm when they arrived.
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As you have implied I was not acting in good faith I would appreciate a response to my post above. Did Bugliosi suggest anywhere that there might have been an alternative for Fritz finding out about Beckley other than from Oswald? If not, I gather we grant him "poetic licence" but acknowledge it as such. It seems he was not complete too. I take my point as proven.
Bugliosi fails to tell the complete story, when the material is questioned the questioner's honesty is called. I seem to remember you live in an area that supports Trump. Looks like consistent style.
Colin, my implication was out of line. And I apologize for that. You are more reasonable than most. From my perspective, it often appears that people purposely try to trip up the opposition in order to make them look foolish. But I don’t think that is your way. I was probably overreacting.
I agree with you that the 3:30 time doesn’t appear to agree with the other evidence. If you want my guess, I guess that it is just an honest mistake.
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Mrs. PAINE - I can proceed. I recall my feeling of anger with her for not being more upset, or she didn't appear to me to be, any more than reporting a remarkable news item. Then it was shortly after that that the bell rang and I went to the door and met some six officers from the sheriff's office and police station.
Mr. JENNER - Was this approximately 3:30 p.m.?
Mrs. PAINE - Oh, I think it was earlier, but I wouldn't be certain. I know that we had put our children to bed. They were all taking a nap, though I am not certain. Yes, my little girl was asleep also. I cried after I had heard that the President was dead, and my little girl was upset, too, always taking it from me more than from any understanding of the situation. And she cried herself to sleep on the sofa, and I moved her to her bed, and Christopher was already asleep in his crib. June was in bed asleep.
Mr. JENNER - Was Marina emotional at all? Did she cry?
Mrs. PAINE - No. She said to me, "I feel very badly also, but we seem to show that we are upset in different ways." She did not actually cry.
Mr. McCLOY - May I go back a moment there, if I may. You said you were Sitting on the sofa--that she and you were sitting on the sofa. While you were listening or looking at the television, was there any announcement over the television of a suspicion being cast at Lee?
Mrs. PAINE - It had just been announced that they had caught someone in a theatre, but there was no name given.
Mr. LIEBELER. I believe it was Fifth.
Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and I took our officer, Harry Weatherford, and we met Officer Adamcik that works for the city and Officer Rose and another one of their officers, but I don't recall his name right now--at this address in Irving and when we went to the door, what turned out to be Mrs. Paine just as soon as we stepped on the porch, she said, "Come on in, we've been expecting you, and we didn't have any trouble at all--we just went right on in and stared asking her--at that time it didn't appear that her or Mrs. Oswald, or Marina, who came up carrying one of the babies in the living room--it didn't appear that they knew that Oswald had been arrested at all--the way they talked.
The point is Charles, they didn't know it was Lee at the time the cops arrived. They were listening to the news (of course). It was not at 3.30pm when they arrived.
The best I can determine, so far, the name was broadcast on the radio before it was broadcast on television. Mr Johnson at North Beckley apparently saw the first broadcast on television (with a photo) while the officers were still confused due to the fake name (O H Lee). Johnson recognized the face on television and pointed them to Oswald’s room. This happened at a little after 3:00 I believe. So it appears to me that the arrival of the officers at the Paine house was likely just before 3:00.
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Colin, my implication was out of line. And I apologize for that. You are more reasonable than most. From my perspective, it often appears that people purposely try to trip up the opposition in order to make them look foolish. But I don’t think that is your way. I was probably overreacting.
I agree with you that the 3:30 time doesn’t appear to agree with the other evidence. If you want my guess, I guess that it is just an honest mistake.
Thanks Charles......appreciated. Like I said I believe the sentiment expressed by Rose works well if Ruth and Marina were not aware of Oswald's apprehension at that time. I suspect it most likely happened about 2.45pm, not 3.30pm.
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Mr. LIEBELER - Did you talk to your wife after you heard that the Texas School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting, and before you subsequently heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mr. PAINE - I don't believe so. I think I called her only once to see that she was listening to the news, and then I assumed she would know all that I knew, and as soon as she heard that I supposed she would be wondering the same thing. It wasn't many minutes later though, it seemed to me, that the name Lee Oswald was mentioned-in the theater. The newsmen didn't connect it up at all, but that is all I needed to send me home.
Mr. LIEBELER - So then you left for your home in Irving?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
It would seem the sequence was;
An arrest in the theatre announced....
then Cops knock at the Paine front door.....
then Michael Paine heard Oswald's name in connection with the theatre arrest and leaves for Irving.
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CTs only try to convert the dots into question marks. Problem is they don’t have any ink (evidence) to put in their pens.
LNers have a predetermined picture that they try to draw regardless of where the dots actually are.
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I guess that it is just an honest mistake.
Finally, after ten pages of BS we arrive at the LN Classic Bailout.
it often appears that people purposely try to trip up the opposition in order to make them look foolish
Certainly not in this case, you're doing fine on your own!
On top of that you also served another LN Classic: Bugliosi Balony.
Fake quotes that tried to cover up Fritz lying his eyes out.
Collin & Chapman, flat on their faces, "connecting the dots", LOL.
See you around, guys.
Connecting the dots
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FYI: "Mr. Payne walked up to the house in Irving about 15 minutes after we first arrived." -- Weatherford.
His drive took how long?
Do the backward calculation, would the "Oswald" name have been out before he called RP and left work?
Didn't they arrest A.J. Hidell?
I did calculate some time back Otto, I might be wrong but Michael's workplace was not that far from Ruth's. About 15 minutes if I remember right. If Oswald was first mentioned by name at 2.42pm (credit DVP), then 3.00pm sounds about right to me. He estimated between 3pm and 3.30pm.
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Mr. LIEBELER - Did you talk to your wife after you heard that the Texas School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting, and before you subsequently heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mr. PAINE - I don't believe so. I think I called her only once to see that she was listening to the news, and then I assumed she would know all that I knew, and as soon as she heard that I supposed she would be wondering the same thing. It wasn't many minutes later though, it seemed to me, that the name Lee Oswald was mentioned-in the theater. The newsmen didn't connect it up at all, but that is all I needed to send me home.
Mr. LIEBELER - So then you left for your home in Irving?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.
It would seem the sequence was;
An arrest in the theatre announced....
then Cops knock at the Paine front door.....
then Michael Paine heard Oswald's name in connection with the theatre arrest and leaves for Irving.
Yes, that makes sense to me.
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Connecting the dots
Yet another irrelevant movie clip from Chapmantroll.
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Thanks. So if the MP timeline checks out that also kills the DP 40-minute wait. But the whole Irving raid is very strange, as Fritz, only based on a tip that an order filler had gone missing, decides to immediately leave Dallas (Boyd testimony). His purpose of first seeing Decker is very cloudy, and even after "learning" Oswald is also the cop killer he sends out three detectives to Irving to sit at the curb? BS! Decker was already short on men so if this was a a legal issue he would have called the Irving police to have them send a man out to the address as they did later to pick up Frazier. The 40-minute wait was likely put in place to fix a known or perceived timeline issue and the WC acted accordingly.
(https://scribbleitaway.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/scribblehead.gif)
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Fair enough. How Bugliosi decided that Oswald definitely told Fritz his Beckley Street address and did it between 2:25 and 2:30 is anybody's guess.
Here’s a clue for you Sherlock:
Words from Joe R. Cody in his interview in “No More Silence” by Larry Sneed:
Initially, I was alone in the little interrogation room with Oswald. When he told me his name, it kind of rang a bell. The only things that he told me were his name, that he had been in the Marine Corps, his serial number, and where he lived and worked.
This was right after they brought him into the police station and before Fritz returned.
I just read this for the first time and haven’t read any further. If he says anything about telling Fritz I will be back immediately to let everyone know.
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Here’s a clue for you Sherlock:
Words from Joe R. Cody in his interview in “No More Silence” by Larry Sneed:
Initially, I was alone in the little interrogation room with Oswald. When he told me his name, it kind of rang a bell. The only things that he told me were his name, that he had been in the Marine Corps, his serial number, and where he lived and worked.
This was right after they brought him into the police station and before Fritz returned.
I just read this for the first time and haven’t read any further. If he says anything about telling Fritz I will be back immediately to let everyone know.
That would be super. Unfortunately, it doesn’t help us determine how Vince developed his bogus narrative.
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Yet another irrelevant movie clip from Chapmantroll.
::)
You can't even come up with a witty putdown attempt
What a dullard
#FAIL
And of course gathering the pieces of the case and putting them together is irrelevant to you, GeeItsFunToTrollHereJohnny.
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(https://scribbleitaway.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/scribblehead.gif)
Good one. Multiply that and you've got a CT convention
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And of course gathering the pieces of the case and putting them together is irrelevant to you, GeeItsFunToTrollHereJohnny.
You have yet to ever “gather pieces of this case”.
You try to derail every thread with your irrelevant “witticisms”. Textbook troll behavior.
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Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; that is not what I said, but that is the reason I didn't call one at the time and I asked him where he wanted to go. And he said, "500 North Beckley."
Lying commie rat, right Watson?
“I guess that it is just an honest mistake”.
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You have yet to ever “gather pieces of this case”.
You try to derail every thread with your irrelevant “witticisms”. Textbook troll behavior.
On the contrary. I exposed the conspirators.
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Thanks. So if the MP timeline checks out that also kills the DP 40-minute wait. But the whole Irving raid is very strange, as Fritz, only based on a tip that an order filler had gone missing, decides to immediately leave Dallas (Boyd testimony). His purpose of first seeing Decker is very cloudy, and even after "learning" Oswald is also the cop killer he sends out three detectives to Irving to sit at the curb? BS! Decker was already short on men so if this was a a legal issue he would have called the Irving police to have them send a man out to the address as they did later to pick up Frazier. The 40-minute wait was likely put in place to fix a known or perceived timeline issue and the WC acted accordingly.
I have long suspected that the 40 minute wait is related to the strange timeline of Frazier and the sudden decision to visit the father in law in hospital. His account makes no sense chronologically.
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His account makes no sense chronologically.
Absolutely, another problem the WC wouldn't deal with. But I don't see how faking a delay would help them if they actually arrived "on time" at the Paine address. To me a delay only works if somebody needed those 40 minutes to catch up or the flow of info out of Irving needed to be delayed...
The only thing I can think of in terms of "information flow" from Irving was Linnie May's story about seeing Oswald with a package of some description. I suspect that information was transferred to Irving about the rifle, lunch and bag. These had just been removed from the TSBD. I suspect the version of LMR's encounter with Adamcek is not what really happened (or when). Frazier's account of his actions after the shooting don’t make sense. I have always suspected the "curtain rod" story to have been concocted that afternoon to take the heat of Buell. I do not believe Linnie May saw any package that morning.
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The only thing I can think of in terms of "information flow" from Irving was Linnie May's story about seeing Oswald with a package of some description. I suspect that information was transferred to Irving about the rifle, lunch and bag. These had just been removed from the TSBD. I suspect the version of LMR's encounter with Adamcek is not what really happened (or when). Frazier's account of his actions after the shooting don’t make sense. I have always suspected the "curtain rod" story to have been concocted that afternoon to take the heat of Buell. I do not believe Linnie May saw any package that morning.
Forgive me for not reading last ten pages to confirm this is new to the discussion....
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/M%20Disk/Mack%20Gary%20Cover-up/Item%2015.pdf
Page 4 of 9
(http://jfkforum.com/images/FrazierCarRadioHeardSuspectOswald.jpg)
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Forgive me for not reading last ten pages to confirm this is new to the discussion....
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/M%20Disk/Mack%20Gary%20Cover-up/Item%2015.pdf
Page 4 of 9
(http://jfkforum.com/images/FrazierCarRadioHeardSuspectOswald.jpg)
Thanks Tom. His story has the all attributes of concoction. He claimed to have gone directly to the hospital after the assassination. He appears to have left the TSBD as soon as he was allowed to. I am unsure why he was allowed to leave as the others who had been on the sixth floor that morning were taken to City Hall for questioning. Fritz instructed Senkel to do that around the time the rifle was discovered.
Frazier claimed to have heard of Kennedy's death and of Oswald's name on his way to the hospital over the car radio. When challenged about how Linnie May knew of his diversion to the hospital he suddenly remembered he must have called his sister from the hospital to let her know.
His recollection of apprehension at the hospital was hours earlier than it could have been from the statements of others involved.
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Oswald's name had been on the media from 2.42pm. I'm sure DVP will correct me but I think I got it from him. You think Marina and Ruth were not aware of this nearly an hour after? Would Marina not check the blanket immediately? Wouldn't she have told Ruth about the rifle then? Wouldn’t Michael have called with the news? He arrived about 15 minutes after the cops.
What do you think?
I came across this information on DVP’s website recently:
Times that Oswald’s name first aired:
ABC - 2:40 PM CST
CBS - 2:59 PM CST
NBC - 3:20 PM CST
WBAP radio - 2:43 PM CST
I have no definite evidence of which TV channel that the Paine’s television was actually tuned to. But based on the testimony that they were unaware of Oswald’s arrest when the police arrived, it appears likely that they were watching the NBC broadcast.
And it occurred to me that a possible reason that Ruth Paine said that she was expecting the police when they came to her door is this:
The FBI had been out to her house twice in recent weeks looking for LHO. Therefore Ruth was aware that the FBI was interested in talking to him. She did testify that they already had heard that the shots had reportedly come from the TSBD (where she knew LHO worked) before the police arrived. So Ruth might have assumed that at least some of the plain clothed officers were FBI, and therefore she wasn’t totally surprised when they showed up at her house.
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Forgive me for not reading last ten pages to confirm this is new to the discussion....
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/M%20Disk/Mack%20Gary%20Cover-up/Item%2015.pdf
Page 4 of 9
(http://jfkforum.com/images/FrazierCarRadioHeardSuspectOswald.jpg)
Nice one, Tom. Oh bytheway....... was it Gus or George the elder leaning against the TSBD in that photo?
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I came across this information on DVP’s website recently:
Times that Oswald’s name first aired:
ABC - 2:40 PM CST
CBS - 2:59 PM CST
NBC - 3:20 PM CST
WBAP radio - 2:43 PM CST
I have no definite evidence of which TV channel that the Paine’s television was actually tuned to. But based on the testimony that they were unaware of Oswald’s arrest when the police arrived, it appears likely that they were watching the NBC broadcast.
And it occurred to me that a possible reason that Ruth Paine said that she was expecting the police when they came to her door is this:
The FBI had been out to her house twice in recent weeks looking for LHO. Therefore Ruth was aware that the FBI was interested in talking to him. She did testify that they already had heard that the shots had reportedly come from the TSBD (where she knew LHO worked) before the police arrived. So Ruth might have assumed that at least some of the plain clothed officers were FBI, and therefore she wasn’t totally surprised when they showed up at her house.
Thanks Charles, both Ruth and Michael testified that it was the Mention of the TSBD location that they associated with Oswald. As mentioned earlier that time of 3.30pm is not corroborated by Weatherford or Walthers. I can see no reason for a 40 minute wait for them to arrive.
The TSBD was mentioned on NBC about 2pm. About 10 minutes later the discovery of shells and chicken (for Walt) were first mentioned.
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Nice one, Tom. Oh bytheway....... was it Gus or George the elder leaning against the TSBD in that photo?
Frazier's story about the trip to the hospital immediately after leaving the TSBD is bogus.
From his HSCA interview.....
He claimed he left for Irving and turned on the radio – heard JFK was being worked on at Parkland
He drove to his sister's house and his mother was there – he then went to the hospital – Irving Professional Center – gave his step father oxygen!
“Sister was there”
at another point he said he got home and it was on TV – sister knew where it had happened (TSBD) – "we both said it was bad thing" then an ------8 sec pause ----- “she said”…….."I went to the house and mother was there". Asked where sister was and she was at hospital. She had been there a while, he went to relieve her.
Hmmmm....
There's more :)
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Thanks Charles, both Ruth and Michael testified that it was the Mention of the TSBD location that they associated with Oswald. As mentioned earlier that time of 3.30pm is not corroborated by Weatherford or Walthers. I can see no reason for a 40 minute wait for them to arrive.
The TSBD was mentioned on NBC about 2pm. About 10 minutes later the discovery of shells and chicken (for Walt) were first mentioned.
Yes, I agree that it appears that the 3:30 PM time is off. I can imagine that, under the circumstances of the President being assassinated, that even a wait of a few minutes might have felt like quite a long time.
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Yes, I agree that it appears that the 3:30 PM time is off. I can imagine that, under the circumstances of the President being assassinated, that even a wait of a few minutes might have felt like quite a long time.
3.30pm is not going to fit with the idea that Fritz got the North Beckley address from Weatherford relaying the phone number to Decker to get an matching address. Those guys arrived well before 3.30pm at 1026 North Beckley.
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I came across this information on DVP’s website recently:
Times that Oswald’s name first aired:
ABC - 2:40 PM CST
CBS - 2:59 PM CST
NBC - 3:20 PM CST
WBAP radio - 2:43 PM CST
I have no definite evidence of which TV channel that the Paine’s television was actually tuned to. But based on the testimony that they were unaware of Oswald’s arrest when the police arrived, it appears likely that they were watching the NBC broadcast.
And it occurred to me that a possible reason that Ruth Paine said that she was expecting the police when they came to her door is this:
The FBI had been out to her house twice in recent weeks looking for LHO. Therefore Ruth was aware that the FBI was interested in talking to him. She did testify that they already had heard that the shots had reportedly come from the TSBD (where she knew LHO worked) before the police arrived. So Ruth might have assumed that at least some of the plain clothed officers were FBI, and therefore she wasn’t totally surprised when they showed up at her house.
There is a difference between not being totally surprised and saying "I've been expecting you", isn't there?
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3.30pm is not going to fit with the idea that Fritz got the North Beckley address from Weatherford relaying the phone number to Decker to get an matching address. Those guys arrived well before 3.30pm at 1026 North Beckley.
From “No More Silence” by Larry Sneed:
Interview of Elmo L. Cunningham, Lieutenant, Forgery Bureau, DPD:
I left [Texas Theater] after about an additional ten minutes then drove to City Hall where Oswald had been taken onto the third floor. Captain Fritz had talked to him awhile and came out into the hall and asked me if I would go with one of his officers to search his room over on North Beckley. Apparently Oswald had told him that that was where he was staying. I don’t think at the time that he intended to tell Fritz where his wife was.
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There is a difference between not being totally surprised and saying "I've been expecting you", isn't there?
I don't claim to know what was going through Ruth Paine's mind at the time. But I have read much of what has been written about her (from people who did know her). From what they have written, and from Ruth's actions, it appears that she was a nice person who tried to be helpful.
Everyone doesn't always choose their words with exacting precision. What might have been a more precise choice of words (instead of I've been expecting you) might have been: I had a hunch that the FBI would be back when I heard on the TV that the shots reportedly came from LHO's place of employment.
That makes more sense to me than whatever sinister concoction the CT crowd might have imagined that it "suggests."
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I don't claim to know what was going through Ruth Paine's mind at the time. But I have read much of what has been written about her (from people who did know her). From what they have written, and from Ruth's actions, it appears that she was a nice person who tried to be helpful.
Everyone doesn't always choose their words with exacting precision. What might have been a more precise choice of words (instead of I've been expecting you) might have been: I had a hunch that the FBI would be back when I heard on the TV that the shots reportedly came from LHO's place of employment.
That makes more sense to me than whatever sinister concoction the CT crowd might have imagined that it "suggests."
it appears that she was a nice person who tried to be helpful.
Ruth herself said that she was spying on the Oswald's and reporting to the FBI..... Have you read her testimony?
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From “No More Silence” by Larry Sneed:
Interview of Elmo L. Cunningham, Lieutenant, Forgery Bureau, DPD:
I left [Texas Theater] after about an additional ten minutes then drove to City Hall where Oswald had been taken onto the third floor. Captain Fritz had talked to him awhile and came out into the hall and asked me if I would go with one of his officers to search his room over on North Beckley. Apparently Oswald had told him that that was where he was staying. I don’t think at the time that he intended to tell Fritz where his wife was.
When I looked at the testimonies a while back, particularly Fritz's, I seriously doubt the Beckley address was originally provided by Oswald. Have you looked at what Fritz said? Also the FBI guys (Bookout and Hosty) provide a 3.15pm timestamp for the commencement of their interrogation. Fritz said they arrived just after he started talking to Oswald......Do we have a time that the first interrogation officially started?
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When I looked at the testimonies a while back, particularly Fritz's, I seriously doubt the Beckley address was originally provided by Oswald. Have you looked at what Fritz said? Also the FBI guys (Bookout and Hosty) provide a 3.15pm timestamp for the commencement of their interrogation. Fritz said they arrived just after he started talking to Oswald......Do we have a time that the first interrogation officially started?
FBI SAIC Gordon Shanklin called Curry and requested that the DPD refrain from questioning Lee Oswald until FBI agenty Hosty could be present . Shanklin explained that Hosty had been "working with these people" and had first hand knowledge concerning Oswald. So they waited until Hosty arrived. The interrogation started at 3:15...
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When I looked at the testimonies a while back, particularly Fritz's, I seriously doubt the Beckley address was originally provided by Oswald. Have you looked at what Fritz said? Also the FBI guys (Bookout and Hosty) provide a 3.15pm timestamp for the commencement of their interrogation. Fritz said they arrived just after he started talking to Oswald......Do we have a time that the first interrogation officially started?
Yes, I looked at what Fritz said. We discussed it earlier in this thread. He couldn’t remember for sure whether Oswald gave him the address or another officer just outside his office did. I also posted this earlier in this thread:
Words from Joe R. Cody in his interview in “No More Silence” by Larry Sneed:
Initially, I was alone in the little interrogation room with Oswald. When he told me his name, it kind of rang a bell. The only things that he told me were his name, that he had been in the Marine Corps, his serial number, and where he lived and worked.
This was right after they brought him into the police station and before Fritz returned.
So we have three different officers essentially telling us that Oswald was the source (Fritz, Cody, and Cunningham).
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Yes, I looked at what Fritz said. We discussed it earlier in this thread. He couldn’t remember for sure whether Oswald gave him the address or another officer just outside his office did. I also posted this earlier in this thread:
Words from Joe R. Cody in his interview in “No More Silence” by Larry Sneed:
Initially, I was alone in the little interrogation room with Oswald. When he told me his name, it kind of rang a bell. The only things that he told me were his name, that he had been in the Marine Corps, his serial number, and where he lived and worked.
This was right after they brought him into the police station and before Fritz returned.
So we have three different officers essentially telling us that Oswald was the source (Fritz, Cody, and Cunningham).
Mr. BALL. Yes. What did you do after you had sent the officers to Irving?
Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet.
Mr. BALL. Some officer told you that he thought this man had a room on Beckley?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had he been brought into the station by that time?
Mr. FRITZ. He was at the station when we got there, you know.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; so then I talked to him and I asked him where his room was on Beckley.
Mr. BALL. Then you started to interrogate Oswald, did you?
Mr. FRITZ. yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about where he lived?
Mr. FRITZ. Where he lived? Right at that time?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. I am sure I had no way of asking him where he lived but I am not too sure about that--just how quick he told me because he corrected me, I thought he lived in Irving and he told me he didn't live in Irving. He lived on Beckley as the officer had told me outside.
Oswald told him after the officer.
Also...
Mr. BALL. Up to that time you hadn't sent any men out to North Beckley, had you?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I sent them out there real soon and Officer Potts called me back from out there and talked to me on the telephone and gave me a report from out there on the telephone, and I am sure that that is the time that he told me about the way he was registered, and I asked Oswald about why he was registered under this other name.
Mr. BALL. What other name?
Mr. FRITZ. Of O. L. Lee.
Seems reasonably clear that an officer told Fritz about the room on Beckley before the interrogation started. The question is what time was it when he was told? What address did Cody claim Oswald told him? Was it Oak Cliff or Irving? As for Cunningham....."apparently" is hardly convincing.
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Mr. BALL. Yes. What did you do after you had sent the officers to Irving?
Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet.
Mr. BALL. Some officer told you that he thought this man had a room on Beckley?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had he been brought into the station by that time?
Mr. FRITZ. He was at the station when we got there, you know.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; so then I talked to him and I asked him where his room was on Beckley.
Mr. BALL. Then you started to interrogate Oswald, did you?
Mr. FRITZ. yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about where he lived?
Mr. FRITZ. Where he lived? Right at that time?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. I am sure I had no way of asking him where he lived but I am not too sure about that--just how quick he told me because he corrected me, I thought he lived in Irving and he told me he didn't live in Irving. He lived on Beckley as the officer had told me outside.
Oswald told him after the officer.
Also...
Mr. BALL. Up to that time you hadn't sent any men out to North Beckley, had you?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I sent them out there real soon and Officer Potts called me back from out there and talked to me on the telephone and gave me a report from out there on the telephone, and I am sure that that is the time that he told me about the way he was registered, and I asked Oswald about why he was registered under this other name.
Mr. BALL. What other name?
Mr. FRITZ. Of O. L. Lee.
Seems reasonably clear that an officer told Fritz about the room on Beckley before the interrogation started. The question is what time was it when he was told? What address did Cody claim Oswald told him? Was it Oak Cliff or Irving? As for Cunningham....."apparently" is hardly convincing.
Here are some additional words from Cunningham in the interview by Larry Sneed:
The North Beckley address was located near the intersection of Zang and Beckley in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas. It was a fine home, probably 4,500 square feet with a huge living room and kind of a passageway which adjoined a dining room. This lady had several roomers. In fact, when we went in and asked her if she had a guy by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald rooming there, she told us, no. After we began describing him, she said, “Well, there’s a young man and his wife who live out there,” referring to a little house out behind her home. As we checked that place, she came running out and said, “They just showed that fellow’s picture on television. He has this room right here. I think he goes by the name Lee.”
If I remember correctly, it was Mr Johnson that was watching the television coverage and saw LHO’s picture for the first time. So, if it can be determined what time his picture was first broadcast on each network (like the times his name was first broadcast), then this would be a clue.
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Here are some additional words from Cunningham in the interview by Larry Sneed:
The North Beckley address was located near the intersection of Zang and Beckley in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas. It was a fine home, probably 4,500 square feet with a huge living room and kind of a passageway which adjoined a dining room. This lady had several roomers. In fact, when we went in and asked her if she had a guy by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald rooming there, she told us, no. After we began describing him, she said, “Well, there’s a young man and his wife who live out there,” referring to a little house out behind her home. As we checked that place, she came running out and said, “They just showed that fellow’s picture on television. He has this room right here. I think he goes by the name Lee.”
If I remember correctly, it was Mr Johnson that was watching the television coverage and saw LHO’s picture for the first time. So, if it can be determined what time his picture was first broadcast on each network (like the times his name was first broadcast), then this would be a clue.
I was watching NBC and I think it was around 3pm the first photo of him entering the station was shown. I could be wrong. Maybe it was the Dallas coverage.
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NBC was the last of the three networks to broadcast his name (3:20 PM). Watching this video, it would appear that very soon after that, they had the information about his adventure in Russia. Take a look at about the 2:33:45 mark.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2oJmFGgfM3zNDdrTWhhYVBXRzA/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2oJmFGgfM3zNDdrTWhhYVBXRzA/view)
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No, Marina told him nothing of the kind. "Translator" Ruth Paine did..
Also...supposedly...Ruth Paine knew nothing about the rifle :-\
Mrs. PAINE - I heard on the television that he had purchased a rifle.
Mr. JENNER - When?
Mrs. PAINE - I heard it on November 23.
Did Ruthie--- "gasp"? :D
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Also...supposedly...Ruth Paine knew nothing about the rifle :-\Did Ruthie--- "gasp"? :D
Why did dear Ruthie have the date of "LHO purchase of rifle" marked on her calendar??
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I was watching NBC and I think it was around 3pm the first photo of him entering the station was shown. I could be wrong. Maybe it was the Dallas coverage.
I watched the NBC coverage and it hadn't yet shown Oswald's photo as of 4:16 PM CST. However, the CBS coverage does show Oswald at the DPD just before 3:30 PM CST. Dan Rather is commenting. Immediately after the brief view of Oswald they show what appears to be the revolver and some ammunition.
I will try to view the ABC coverage next...
Edit: Here is the link to the CBS coverage video, LHO can be seen at about the 3:00:05 mark:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8UwZ588YcqIM2QxZ09BRHpSWnM/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8UwZ588YcqIM2QxZ09BRHpSWnM/view)
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I watched the NBC coverage and it hadn't yet shown Oswald's photo as of 4:16 PM CST. However, the CBS coverage does show Oswald at the DPD just before 3:30 PM CST. Dan Rather is commenting. Immediately after the brief view of Oswald they show what appears to be the revolver and some ammunition.
I will try to view the ABC coverage next...
Edit: Here is the link to the CBS coverage video, LHO can be seen at about the 3:00:05 mark:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8UwZ588YcqIM2QxZ09BRHpSWnM/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8UwZ588YcqIM2QxZ09BRHpSWnM/view)
After viewing the ABC coverage, it appears that they were the first to broadcast LHO's picture at the DPD. This happened at approximately 3:21 PM CST. They broadcast him just briefly as he entered through a door from a corridor and named him also. Bill Lord was commenting. Here is a link to the video. You can find this at about the 2:29:43 mark:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Nx0_rEoKWcO8LJyRV7Lf9ahh9TiIRHAc (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Nx0_rEoKWcO8LJyRV7Lf9ahh9TiIRHAc)
Edit: I think I jumped the gun a little bit. This video has apparently been edited and this part of the broadcast appears to be much later. Jay and Bill Lord are discussing time frames and this looks to have been broadcast close to 8:00 PM CST. My mistake.
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I was watching NBC and I think it was around 3pm the first photo of him entering the station was shown. I could be wrong. Maybe it was the Dallas coverage.
The WFAA-TV coverage video seems to be uninterrupted. The only film they had of Oswald before the 3:30 time of CBS's film was from the Texas Theater. And it didn't show enough of Oswald for anyone to recognize. So it does appear that CBS was first. And it fits the time frame for the search at the North Beckley address.
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Mr. BELIN. Could you describe how you came to find out that this man had another name other than O. H. Lee?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it was when the officers came looking for him.
Mr. BELIN. When was this?
Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--after Tippit was shot, the police----
Mr. BELIN. This would have been on November 22, 1963?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And can you state what happened?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, they just came down there looking for--uh--Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. Did they say what his full name was?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, I believe they did.
Mr. BELIN. Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. JOHNSON. I believe they did.
Mr. BELIN. Did they say how they happened to come there?
Mr. JOHNSON. "Well, uh--after he was--uh--apprehended out there, they searched him and found my address in his pocket
Mr. BELIN. Your address of 1026 North Beckley?
Mr. JOHNSON. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. All right. What happened when the officers got there? They asked if Lee Harvey Oswald lived there?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How long had you been at the house when the officers arrived?
Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, probably 30 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time of the day they arrived?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it must have been around 1:30 or 2 o'clock--the best I remember.
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Mr. BELIN. Could you describe how you came to find out that this man had another name other than O. H. Lee?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it was when the officers came looking for him.
Mr. BELIN. When was this?
Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--after Tippit was shot, the police----
Mr. BELIN. This would have been on November 22, 1963?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And can you state what happened?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, they just came down there looking for--uh--Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. Did they say what his full name was?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, I believe they did.
Mr. BELIN. Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. JOHNSON. I believe they did.
Mr. BELIN. Did they say how they happened to come there?
Mr. JOHNSON. "Well, uh--after he was--uh--apprehended out there, they searched him and found my address in his pocket
Mr. BELIN. Your address of 1026 North Beckley?
Mr. JOHNSON. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. All right. What happened when the officers got there? They asked if Lee Harvey Oswald lived there?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How long had you been at the house when the officers arrived?
Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, probably 30 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time of the day they arrived?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it must have been around 1:30 or 2 o'clock--the best I remember.
Sounds credible to me (not).
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The WFAA-TV coverage video seems to be uninterrupted. The only film they had of Oswald before the 3:30 time of CBS's film was from the Texas Theater. And it didn't show enough of Oswald for anyone to recognize. So it does appear that CBS was first. And it fits the time frame for the search at the North Beckley address.
In "With Malice" by Dale Myers (Loc 5430 on my Kindle), I found the following:
3:10 P.M. - WFAA and WBAP television in Dallas were broadcasting the first photograph of suspect Lee Harvey Oswald, take by AP photographer, Ferd Kaufman. The caption transmitted by the Associated Press, with the photograph, underscored the belief that Oswald was guilty of murdering Officer J.D. Tippit:
"Gunman kills policeman - Lee H. Oswald, 24, was arrested in Dallas today in connection with the slaying of a Dallas policeman shortly after President Kennedy was assassinated. He was also being interrogated to see if he had any connection with the slaying of the president."[814]
Footnote [614] CD723, p.2 (FBI LHM, March 30, 1964, Re: First time Oswald's picture was displayed on local Dallas television)