JFK Assassination Forum

Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Robert Reeves on September 07, 2019, 11:11:32 PM

Title: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Robert Reeves on September 07, 2019, 11:11:32 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/0N6sN5sL/dcm1.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Kjxwtx6c/dcm2.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/5yKgjJ1R/5.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/cCxkrT3r/6.jpg)

Kinda looks like him? light jacket + shirt, dark pants & shoes. Seems to be wearing a dark hat, too. 

Interestingly, I came across some corroborating evidence in the form of a written interview with someone claiming to have been DCM  -- stating that at around 13:30pm he [DCM] was in the vicinity of the TSDB. I'll post the interview at some point.

Anyone ever noticed this person almost obscured by the woman with her hand up to her face?
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Royell Storing on September 08, 2019, 05:42:10 PM
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(https://i.postimg.cc/0N6sN5sL/dcm1.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Kjxwtx6c/dcm2.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/5yKgjJ1R/5.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/cCxkrT3r/6.jpg)

Kinda looks like him? light jacket + shirt, dark pants & shoes. Seems to be wearing a dark hat, too. 

Interestingly, I came across some corroborating evidence in the form of a written interview with someone claiming to have been DCM  -- stating that at around 13:30pm he [DCM] was in the vicinity of the TSDB. I'll post the interview at some point.

Anyone ever noticed this person almost obscured by the woman with her hand up to her face?

   As usual, your keen eye has uncovered that which has been in plain sight.  Do you know the Time Stamp of this 3 Tramps photo? Based on his angled in-the-air (R) foot, he is turning the corner as the 3 Tramps in front of him just did. Is this guy trailing the 3 Tramps immediately after the Dallas Police Dept interfered with a train yard rendezvous?
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Robert Reeves on September 08, 2019, 10:55:01 PM
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   As usual, your keen eye has uncovered that which has been in plain sight.  Do you know the Time Stamp of this 3 Tramps photo? Based on his angled in-the-air (R) foot, he is turning the corner as the 3 Tramps in front of him just did. Is this guy trailing the 3 Tramps immediately after the Dallas Police Dept interfered with a train yard rendezvous?

Billy Bass, below

(https://i.postimg.cc/mDcmr1wz/bass.jpg)

He stated (1977) during an interview for HSCA hearings that after walking the tramps to the county jail he went back to the TSDB and shortly after he first heard about the Tippit shooting (1:18pm). Annoyingly, in all the interviews I've looked through with cops involved in the movements of the three tramps weren't asked what time these events took place. It might have been the first report of the Tippet shooting Bass heard, that day, doesn't mean it was the 1:18pm time.

From Denis Morrissette's website.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGSSDFYP/bass-hears-of-tippit.jpg)

I think Jim Garrison investigated the approx time - using shadows and it came to between 1pm and 2pm. 

I've looked at all the other tramps photos and there's no other sighting of the DCM looking fella.

I imagine he was lurking somewhere off to the side as they were marched along the south west wall past the ring fencing. There must be so many more photographs were not seeing.
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Royell Storing on September 08, 2019, 11:31:28 PM

   There is also a photo of a group of men huddled in front of the TSBD. One of these guys is wearing a hat that looks like the hat Dark Complected Man was wearing. A raised rifle can also be seen amidst this group of men. The obscured man behind the 3 Tramps might be the guy wearing the hat in that TSBD photo.
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Robert Reeves on September 09, 2019, 01:18:02 AM
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   There is also a photo of a group of men huddled in front of the TSBD. One of these guys is wearing a hat that looks like the hat Dark Complected Man was wearing. A raised rifle can also be seen amidst this group of men. The obscured man behind the 3 Tramps might be the guy wearing the hat in that TSBD photo.

Do you mean this pic?

(https://i.postimg.cc/pVKNvyLc/dcm-maybe.jpg)

It's too far away to make out much detail. But there's someone there with a white top and appears to have a dark hat
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 09, 2019, 04:27:32 AM
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It's too far away to make out much detail. But there's someone there with a white top and appears to have a dark hat

Let Graves have a look at it. He’ll be happy to describe the person’s face and clothing in detail and then tell you the guy’s life story.
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Sim Heninger on September 09, 2019, 04:57:56 AM
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Quote
I think Jim Garrison investigated the approx time - using shadows and it came to between 1pm and 2pm

Tha shadows look longer than what they would have been at 1:30, more consistent with later in the afternoon.  Aerial photos might help some with that question, also see James Hackelrod's thread, "Peristyle Time Clock".

Robert, please do post the written claims of someone that he is the Dark Complected Man...sounds very interesting.

Nice thread,
Sim
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Royell Storing on September 09, 2019, 04:40:17 PM
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Do you mean this pic?

(https://i.postimg.cc/pVKNvyLc/dcm-maybe.jpg)

It's too far away to make out much detail. But there's someone there with a white top and appears to have a dark hat

    The photo I am referring to is a view of a gaggle of men from Above. The somewhat blurry B/W Photo I referenced shows 3 or 4 guys standing around in somewhat of a circle. One of them is wearing a hat very similar to the hat worn by Dark Complected Man and among them there is rifle in a raised position. The rifle barrel is pointed skyward and is unmistakable as being a rifle. It might be the same guys as we see above. Impossible to say based on the lack of clarity. 
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Sim Heninger on September 10, 2019, 01:29:52 AM
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    The photo I am referring to is a view of a gaggle of men from Above. The somewhat blurry B/W Photo I referenced shows 3 or 4 guys standing around in somewhat of a circle. One of them is wearing a hat very similar to the hat worn by Dark Complected Man and among them there is rifle in a raised position. The rifle barrel is pointed skyward and is unmistakable as being a rifle. It might be the same guys as we see above. Impossible to say based on the lack of clarity.

At first I thought you must be referring to the Mentesana film of the east side of the TSBD, which does show a "gaggle," a rifle, is taken from a point higher than the men in it, and shows someone with headgear similar to DCM's.  But Mentesana filmed in color...but I also vaguely remember a picture or pictures  of the same group, in B & W, taken from a high TSBD window.

Any way you could post the photo?

Thanks, Royell.
Sim

Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Sim Heninger on September 10, 2019, 01:48:37 AM
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Interestingly, I came across some corroborating evidence in the form of a written interview with someone claiming to have been DCM  -- stating that at around 13:30pm he [DCM] was in the vicinity of the TSDB. I'll post the interview at some point.

Please do post this item, Robert, sounds very interesting, especially because there's so little on DCM besides photos.

Thanks, Sim
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: James Hackerott on September 10, 2019, 03:32:00 AM
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Tha shadows look longer than what they would have been at 1:30, more consistent with later in the afternoon.  Aerial photos might help some with that question, also see James Hackelrod's thread, "Peristyle Time Clock".

Robert, please do post the written claims of someone that he is the Dark Complected Man...sounds very interesting.

Nice thread,
Sim
I'll post this summary animated collage tonight, but will discuss it tomorrow.
Thanks for the plug, but its Hackerott. ;)
(https://i.imgur.com/mgOIsFu.gif)
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Robert Reeves on September 10, 2019, 10:54:28 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/7L7XN0j3/mentesana-3.jpg)

It's this pic @ Royell? one of the Mentesana frames

Apart from the obvious jacket colour difference (obviously could be altered), the beret this guy is wearing isn't as puffy as DCM's cap. DCM's hat is odd. I will post more about it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/DfD4P036/digitalcollections657-baylor-edu.jpg)

I think the Mentesana film captures the first tramps to be arrested. Gus Abrams, Harold Doyle, and John Gedney. Doyle in his interview stated they were arrested right after the assassination. And walked through the crowd. Which you can see in the film. But the notorious three tramps were walked through an almost empty plaza that was roped off to the public. The clip is a little bit compressed, but it's police officers walking some men through the plaza.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0jzp8XL1/dca-film.gif)



@ Sim Heninger, I will post the interview, plus a lot of information in it and thing's that I've discovered about the details which appear to be correct, like DCM being in and around TSDB after the assassination. It's a lot of sorting into chunks. I will post, though.
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Duncan MacRae on September 10, 2019, 12:03:35 PM
If you look closely, you'll see a DCM lookalike in this Video.
I raised this issue many years ago, and it turned out not to be DCM, different Jacket and appears younger.
The guy in Robert's opening post is  almost certainly the same younger guy who can be seen in this Video watching Howard Brennan being escorted into a car.

DCM had almost certainly left Dealey Plaza by the time of the events in the above Video.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3JNW6LfvmLE/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Robert Reeves on September 10, 2019, 02:02:49 PM
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If you look closely, you'll see a DCM lookalike in this Video.
I raised this issue many years ago, and it turned out not to be DCM, different Jacket and appears younger.
The guy in Robert's opening post is  almost certainly the same younger guy who can be seen in this Video watching Howard Brennan being escorted into a car.


DCM had almost certainly left Dealey Plaza by the time of the events in the above Video.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3JNW6LfvmLE/hqdefault.jpg)

I presume you mean the guy in the middle? looks like he is wearing a dark shirt or under-jacket

(https://i.postimg.cc/02XXpGrH/maybe-dcm.jpg)

Duncan, do you know who it was that first spotted DCM in WFAA-TV footage of DCM walking across the grass? I thought Gerda Dunckel? and any idea the time frame he was discovered ... Dunckel's youtube clip was dated around 2011.

Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Royell Storing on September 10, 2019, 03:53:44 PM
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(https://i.postimg.cc/7L7XN0j3/mentesana-3.jpg)

It's this pic @ Royell? one of the Mentesana frames

Apart from the obvious jacket colour difference (obviously could be altered), the beret this guy is wearing isn't as puffy as DCM's cap. DCM's hat is odd. I will post more about it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/DfD4P036/digitalcollections657-baylor-edu.jpg)

I think the Mentesana film captures the first tramps to be arrested. Gus Abrams, Harold Doyle, and John Gedney. Doyle in his interview stated they were arrested right after the assassination. And walked through the crowd. Which you can see in the film. But the notorious three tramps were walked through an almost empty plaza that was roped off to the public. The clip is a little bit compressed, but it's police officers walking some men through the plaza.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0jzp8XL1/dca-film.gif)



@ Sim Heninger, I will post the interview, plus a lot of information in it and thing's that I've discovered about the details which appear to be correct, like DCM being in and around TSDB after the assassination. It's a lot of sorting into chunks. I will post, though.

    Thanks for posting that Mantesana still frame. Like Sim, I remember the photo image being B/W and shot from Higher up. I could be wrong, but as my detractors have come to discover, Not Likely. That said, this gaggle would be the same group of men I previously referenced. 
    With regard to the postulation that the guy walking across the grass section between Elm & Main is DCM might be true. What does Not hold water is then going on to say that this same individual then Exited Dealey Plaza. Nobody KNOWS where this individual went from that point forward. Staying with that same image, I have always felt that the stocky guy walking across Elm St is Apron Man. He was originally positioned on Elm's South Curb in close proximity to Willis's daughter when she came to a stop. I bring this up as validation that people moved all around Dealey Plaza in the aftermath of the shooting. This would even include main players Moorman, Hill, Sitzman, Euins, etc.
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Sim Heninger on September 10, 2019, 09:17:18 PM
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Thanks for the plug, but its Hackerott. ;)

Many sorrows for my messing up your name, James.  The quoting system on the forum was messing with my human brain, I think I took it out on an innocent bystander.

The shadows graphic is phenomenal...right down to the manhole.  Anxious to get your own thoughts on it.

Sim
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: James Hackerott on September 11, 2019, 03:08:30 AM
Absolutely no problem Sim.
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: James Hackerott on September 11, 2019, 03:25:57 AM
Here are shadow studies for two of the Tramps photos. I get similar results of 2:15-2:25 pm for the timing. It would be great, and appreciated, if anyone interested and in Dealey Plaza on a sunny day close to November 22 would take photos of the pergola at intervals around 2:00-2:20 for comparison with the simulations. My attempts to use the Houston street street light shadow are not working well. Partially, I think there is some leaning of that tall pole that so far I've not modeled correctly.
 
Tramps1
(https://i.imgur.com/s3jWr9u.png)

In the upper left corner we see most of the north pergola. We are concerned with the forward vertical column just to the right of the Thornton sign and the next column to the right (east). The western column is totally in shadow, while the eastern column's face is fully sunlit. The closeup animation below runs from 1-3pm. There is a narrow range of 2:15-2:25pm that is consistent with the tramp photo.
(https://i.imgur.com/60199xQ.gif[/img
 
Tramps2
[img]https://i.imgur.com/AzWusEx.png)

(having a problem getting a photo loaded - will try tomorrow)
At left center the north reflection pool's north wall shows a number of  cutouts. We see the shadow line running diagonally almost, but not quite, touching the cutout's bottom. A closeup animation of the cutout shadow runs from 1-3pm.  I've re-positioned the virtual camera somewhat from what I used for the previous collage.This analysis is more subjective than the pergola shadows above, but still is consistent with a 2:15 or little later imo.
(https://i.imgur.com/rr18vYG.gif)

Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Sim Heninger on September 12, 2019, 04:46:45 AM
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(having a problem getting a photo loaded - will try tomorrow)

The cutouts are visible in the tramps/cops photo posted by Robert on 9/8, if that's the one you're referring to.

This is offthread, but I've always thought the timing of the Charles Bronson film of the ambulance, which shows the so-called Oswald window minutes before the motorcade arrived, could be timed by the shadow of the Records Building on the Dal-Tex.

Wonderful work, James.

Sim
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Robert Reeves on September 12, 2019, 09:45:21 AM
Could the Dorman film shadow positioning be of any use? it's in the same area of one of the tramps photos

(https://i.postimg.cc/BbCgfMdW/Dorman-and-three-tramps.jpg)
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: James Hackerott on September 12, 2019, 08:49:45 PM
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The cutouts are visible in the tramps/cops photo posted by Robert on 9/8, if that's the one you're referring to.

This is offthread, but I've always thought the timing of the Charles Bronson film of the ambulance, which shows the so-called Oswald window minutes before the motorcade arrived, could be timed by the shadow of the Records Building on the Dal-Tex.

Wonderful work, James.

Sim
Sim, try this link. I think I had this issue trying to embed imagery form my Google Drive.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/The_Three_Tramps.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/The_Three_Tramps.jpg)

And below is a reworked animation taken from a better angle. I hope this works. >:(
(https://i.imgur.com/pjjDkY9.gif)
James
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Sim Heninger on September 13, 2019, 01:16:01 AM
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Sim, try this link. I think I had this issue trying to embed imagery form my Google Drive.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/The_Three_Tramps.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/The_Three_Tramps.jpg)

And below is a reworked animation taken from a better angle. I hope this works. >:(

James

Yes, it does work, James.  All of your graphics indicate a time of 2:15 give-or-take for when the tramps were marched across to the sheriff's office. That is more consistent with witness accounts I've come across.

Sim

 

Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Sim Heninger on September 18, 2019, 07:57:36 PM
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(https://i.postimg.cc/7L7XN0j3/mentesana-3.jpg)

It's this pic @ Royell? one of the Mentesana frames
<img src="https://i.ibb.co/z5ZjQW4/skaggsberet.jpg" alt="skaggsberet"/>

Her's a link to a Skaggs closeup of the man with the beret in the rifle group...not DCM.  The phot's from Robin's Gallery.

Sim

Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Royell Storing on September 22, 2019, 04:13:59 PM
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<img src="https://i.ibb.co/z5ZjQW4/skaggsberet.jpg" alt="skaggsberet"/>

Her's a link to a Skaggs closeup of the man with the beret in the rifle group...not DCM.  The phot's from Robin's Gallery.

Sim

    If you look at an uncropped still frame from the above Montesana Film, you will see that this man being ID'd as Skaggs has a White Object extending out of his (R) suit jacket pocket. A White Object being visible from the (R) suit jacket pocket to this point has been Solely used to ID Darnell. Solely attributing this "Signature" White Object in the (R) suit jacket pocket to Darnell is NOT a valid means of identification. 
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 23, 2019, 09:44:06 PM
Thanks Royell.  That's the problem with creative fuzzy image interpretation and assumptions.
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Robert Reeves on September 24, 2019, 01:17:28 AM
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Thanks Royell.  That's the problem with creative fuzzy image interpretation and assumptions.

The frustrations of JFK's assassination are so painfully there to see when we are relying on amateur interest/research regarding undoubtedly strange characters that have been captured visually, on the day, acting in ways that deserved greater investigative government resources. For Umbrella Man, and DCM to have received virtually no curiosity as to their actions is just ridiculous. Every instance of their photographic existence in dealey plaza to be fuzzy, blurred, and corrupted is ridiculous. There is alteration at hand, IMO.
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Thomas Graves on September 24, 2019, 03:43:02 AM
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The frustrations of JFK's assassination are so painfully there to see when we are relying on amateur interest/research regarding undoubtedly strange characters that have been captured visually, on the day, acting in ways that deserved greater investigative government resources. For Umbrella Man, and DCM to have received virtually no curiosity as to their actions is just ridiculous. Every instance of their photographic existence in dealey plaza to be fuzzy, blurred, and corrupted is ridiculous. There is alteration at hand, IMO.

Robert,

They received plenty of attention at the so-called Education Forum back in the day.

Iirc, Robert "Tosh" Plumlee claimed DCM was an anti-Castro Cuban whose nickname was "Gator" because he'd lost some fingers to one.

In one of the films taken several minutes after the assassination from roughly the Zapruder position near the Grassy Knoll, I think you can see "Gator" limping from right-to-left across the "infield grass" on the other side of Elm Street.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Royell Storing on September 24, 2019, 10:43:59 PM
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The frustrations of JFK's assassination are so painfully there to see when we are relying on amateur interest/research regarding undoubtedly strange characters that have been captured visually, on the day, acting in ways that deserved greater investigative government resources. For Umbrella Man, and DCM to have received virtually no curiosity as to their actions is just ridiculous. Every instance of their photographic existence in dealey plaza to be fuzzy, blurred, and corrupted is ridiculous. There is alteration at hand, IMO.

    Many of the JFK Assassination Images that are in the public forum are substandard. This is Intentional. The good/clear Images are squirreled away. A case in point would be "The Lost Bullet". "The Lost Bullet" made a Big Deal out of cleaning up all those assassination films and then elects to Not show the audience those same films in their Entirety. Like David Copperfield, they decide what the audience will be permitted to view/examine.  The intentionally endless JFK Assassination Cropped Photos/Still Frames is also an issue.   
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Robert Reeves on September 27, 2019, 04:02:20 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxyNxw8C/hand-signals.gif)

DCM raises hand

Does Greer acknowledge a signal?

(https://i.postimg.cc/7hmsfm9b/ezgif-com-optimize.gif)

Using the Unger/Hinrichs Zapruder clip extracted from JFK movie.
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Royell Storing on September 27, 2019, 11:47:45 PM
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The frustrations of JFK's assassination are so painfully there to see when we are relying on amateur interest/research regarding undoubtedly strange characters that have been captured visually, on the day, acting in ways that deserved greater investigative government resources. For Umbrella Man, and DCM to have received virtually no curiosity as to their actions is just ridiculous. Every instance of their photographic existence in dealey plaza to be fuzzy, blurred, and corrupted is ridiculous. There is alteration at hand, IMO.

     The FBI Focus regarding the ID of people inside Dealey Plaza was obviously placed on those eyewitnesses having cameras. The FBI managed in less than 24 hrs to track down missionary Bob Croft and his film in Denver, Co. They knew that Eyewitnesses without images to corroborate their accounts could be easily coerced and if necessary discredited. This was done with the Parkland Hospital Drs. and Nurses that treated JFK and to this day is done on almost a daily basis on this Forum.  The FBI was Immediately all over anyone that had a camera inside Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63.
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Robert Reeves on September 28, 2019, 12:41:17 AM
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     The FBI Focus regarding the ID of people inside Dealey Plaza was obviously placed on those eyewitnesses having cameras. The FBI managed in less than 24 hrs to track down missionary Bob Croft and his film in Denver, Co. They knew that Eyewitnesses without images to corroborate their accounts could be easily coerced and if necessary discredited. This was done with the Parkland Hospital Drs. and Nurses that treated JFK and to this day is done on almost a daily basis on this Forum.  The FBI was Immediately all over anyone that had a camera inside Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63.

Except DCM. They didn't care what he was filming.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mrY9yvyP/fade.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/MpRfzC49/angle-2.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1zQnXW1s/jfkdocneck2.jpg)
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Royell Storing on September 28, 2019, 01:05:33 AM

   Regarding a decent frontal view of Dark Complected Man, (all photos being relative), Rickerby probably took the best pic of DCM while he was seated on the retaining wall. I do Not see a camera or camera straps in that Rickerby photo. If you want to scrap the alleged walkie talkie in his back pocket and substitute a camera, that's a possibility.
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Sim Heninger on September 29, 2019, 02:33:20 AM
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Except DCM. They didn't care what he was filming.

If this is part of what you have collected on DCM, I'm ready for more.

Sim
Title: Re: Dark Complected Man outside TSDB?
Post by: Robert Reeves on October 02, 2019, 11:34:04 PM
DCM was Loy Factor. Imo

And Umbrella Man was Art Baker. IMO.

These are images of Art Baker (right side) compared with Umbrella Man and Tom Wilson's image print out of UM in profile.

(https://i.postimg.cc/gkLZmKFj/combined-faces.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/KcfKPvBP/umbrella-man-dot-dot-dot.png)

Image above was created by Tom Wilson. Tom Wilson gave a 98.2% probability of Art Baker being Umbrella Man.

These images and other details I found in Cutler & Whites research.

Cutler and White interviewed Loy Factor and he had unique knowledge of DCM -- & what actions DCM did in Dealey Plaza.