JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Mike Orr on September 03, 2019, 04:39:51 AM
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You Tube ------------ JFK - The Medical Cover Up
14:45 of the video : Behn & Kellerman ! The whole video is 1:16:29 There is actual audio : Jerry Behn is at the White House situation room and he is talking to Roy Kellerman who is on Air Force 1 . This whole video is very good and has a ton of information . Douglas Horne is very thorough during this video . It's one of the most informative videos that I have ever watched .
Air Force 1 Andrews , Roger. Go ahead with you traffic now , sir.
Kellerman : Digest to Duplex , how's this ?
Behn : Go ahead , Digest - this is Duplex
Kellerman : Again I repeat...
Kellerman : 3 helicopters to transport people to the White House lawn. okay ?
Behn : that is affirmative
Kellerman : Roger , okay...
Kellerman : White House 102 and 405X , transportation to the Navy Hospital , okay ?
Behn : That is affirmative
Kellerman : That's a Roger , uh...
Kellerman : I am keeping , uh... I will join the General and his party at the Navy Hospital , okay ?
Behn : Digest , this is Duplex - You accompany the " BODY " aboard the " HELICOPTER ".
Kellerman : Roger
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Warren Commission testimony of Clint Hill .
Mr. Specter : What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital ( Parkland ) ?
Mr. Hill : The right rear portion of his head was missing . It was lying in the rear seat of the car . His brain was exposed . There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car .
I always wondered why there was such a rush to bury JFK and we really don't know if JFK is buried at Arlington or at sea where supposedly a casket with weight and holes in the casket so it would sink and not ever come up ! JFK killed on Friday the 22nd and buried on Monday the 25th of Nov. ! J.D. Tippit killed on Friday the 22nd of Nov. and buried on Monday the 25th of Nov. ! Lee Harvey Oswald killed by Jack Ruby on Sunday the 24th of Nov. and was buried on Monday the 25th of Nov. !
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From a CD of the White House Audio Tapes of Air Force One
MEMORANDUM
October 17, 1995
To: Jeremy Gunn
From: Doug Horne
Subject: Air Force One Audiotapes from November 22, 1963
1. "As directed, Joan Zimmerman and I visited Archives II to listen to audio recordings
of the November 22, 1963 Air Force One tapes."
-snip-
4. "Joan Zimmerman and I took voluminous notes, noting the many occasions when
spoken word on the tapes is not accounted for on the LBJ transcript. We also took notes
in an attempt to expand on areas of the "transcript" which are only summations of
conversations (vice verbatim accounts), and attempted to correct occasional inaccuracies
found in the LBJ "transcript."
-snip-
B. "Onboard Air Force One on the return flight to Washington, Secret Service Agent
Kellerman, and later General Ted Clifton (Military Aide to the President) make it clear
that their desire is for an ambulance and limousine to take President Kennedy's body to
Walter Reed General Hospital for autopsy"..under guard...," as specified by General
Clifton. Gerald Behn, Head of the White House Secret Service Detail, counters that a
Helicoptor has been arranged to take the President's body to the National Naval Medical
Center at Bethesda for autopsy, and all other personnel will be choppered to the
South Grounds of the White House. Ultimately, the President's physician, Admiral
George Burley (on Air Force One), sides with Gerald Behn (at the White House) in
support of a Bethesda autopsy and persuades the Surgeon General of the Army,
Gneral Heaton (in Washington) to cancel arrangements for a Walter Reed autopsy."
"Once it becomes clear that Bethesda is to be the site, two things happen:
First, both Admiral Burkley and General Clifton insist that the President's body be transported to
Bethesda by ambulance(vice helicoptor), even though Gerald Behn at the White House
informs General Clifton that President Kennedy's Naval Aide, CAPT Shepard, has
assured him that it will be no problem for the helicoptor to carry the heavy casket;
second, even though Admiral Burkley and General Clifton insist on ambulance
transport of JFK's body to Bethesda, Gerald Behn at the White House subsequently
orders Roy Kellerman: "You accompany the body aboard the helicopter,"
-snip-
(2) "An Air Force document titled: "Historical Highlights of Andrews Air Force Base, 1942-1989" states
that "...the body of the slain President was removed to Walter Reed General
Hospital...," which further fuels the controversy over the movements of the President's
body after Air Force One landed at Andrews."
-snip-
-----------------------
http://www.whitehousetapes.net
Presidential Recordings Program, Miller Center of Public Affairs,
University of Virginia
"The full text of the entire volume of annotated transcripts of the LBJ recordings from November 22 to November 30, 1962,
is available here. It includes the complete set of Air Force One calls enroute from Dallas to Washington. The volume was
edited by former Miller Center scholar Max Holland."
-----------------------
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/AF1tapes1.png)
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Who moved JFK from his casket on AF 1 and who made the initial call to have JFK moved by helicopter to Bethesda ?
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Chain of Possession was over at so many points of the JFK Assassination !
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This is another one of those ridiculous theories about the JFK case, this time cooked up by Dave Lifton, which made him a good amount of money. Lifton was hot back in the 80's when his book BEST EVIDENCE was on book shelves and libraries. He also appeared in the PBS documentary about the case.
The story goes like this:
After the body was placed in a casket at Parkland and put into the hearse, the caravan leaves for Love Field. According to this kooky theory, somehow and in some way, the casket, after being placed on the plane, is opened. The body is thrown down into the cargo hold. This is done while Kennedy's Irish Mafia and Jackie are standing guard by the coffin throughout the entire procession from the hospital to its arrival at Andrews.
From there, on live TV, the coffin you see on the live TV footage is supposedly empty while Kennedy's body is snuck out the back way of the airplane, thrown onto a helicopter and whisked off to Bethesda. This supposedly allows doctors to perform all manner of body alterations to the body to cover up the evidence of multiple shooters before the official autopsy was to begin.
Yeah, right. To wit:
Do you really think that someone, anyone, would have been allowed to open up the casket in full view of a tight and crowded airplane to throw the body down into the cargo hold in full view of the widow, Kennedy's staff and cronies?
Do you really think that anyone at all would not have noticed on the other side of the plane the body being removed and thrown on to a helicopter, in full view of a mass of people at Andrews along with TV cameras and lights?
The murder was mere hours old by the time of the Andrews arrival. How in the world would the doctors have known what to cover up on Kennedy's body when they didn't even know what happened in Dallas?
I debated this endlessly with old Dave Lifton over on another forum. Here's a highlight of it - http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23250-david-lifton-teases-final-charade-on-the-night-fright-show/page/28/?tab=comments#comment-371553
If you want to look elsewhere over there, use the keyword "scalpels" and you'll find more. Because that's what I called old Dave's theory - the Thrumming Copter and Mad Doctors with Scalpels at the Ready theory. His theory holds about as much water as the ridiculous Lee Oswald clone one.
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This is another one of those ridiculous theories about the JFK case, this time cooked up by Dave Lifton, which made him a good amount of money. Lifton was hot back in the 80's when his book BEST EVIDENCE was on book shelves and libraries. He also appeared in the PBS documentary about the case.
The story goes like this:
After the body was placed in a casket at Parkland and put into the hearse, the caravan leaves for Love Field. According to this kooky theory, somehow and in some way, the casket, after being placed on the plane, is opened. The body is thrown down into the cargo hold. This is done while Kennedy's Irish Mafia and Jackie are standing guard by the coffin throughout the entire procession from the hospital to its arrival at Andrews.
From there, on live TV, the coffin you see on the live TV footage is supposedly empty while Kennedy's body is snuck out the back way of the airplane, thrown onto a helicopter and whisked off to Bethesda. This supposedly allows doctors to perform all manner of body alterations to the body to cover up the evidence of multiple shooters before the official autopsy was to begin.
Yeah, right. To wit:
Do you really think that someone, anyone, would have been allowed to open up the casket in full view of a tight and crowded airplane to throw the body down into the cargo hold in full view of the widow, Kennedy's staff and cronies?
Do you really think that anyone at all would not have noticed on the other side of the plane the body being removed and thrown on to a helicopter, in full view of a mass of people at Andrews along with TV cameras and lights?
The murder was mere hours old by the time of the Andrews arrival. How in the world would the doctors have known what to cover up on Kennedy's body when they didn't even know what happened in Dallas?
I debated this endlessly with old Dave Lifton over on another forum. Here's a highlight of it - http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23250-david-lifton-teases-final-charade-on-the-night-fright-show/page/28/?tab=comments#comment-371553
If you want to look elsewhere over there, use the keyword "scalpels" and you'll find more. Because that's what I called old Dave's theory - the Thrumming Copter and Mad Doctors with Scalpels at the Ready theory. His theory holds about as much water as the ridiculous Lee Oswald clone one.
"This is done while Kennedy's Irish Mafia and Jackie are standing guard by the coffin throughout the entire procession from the hospital to its arrival at Andrews."
That is not entirely true.
If I remember correctly, LBJ demanded Jackie and most everybody else on the plane be present when he took the oath of office.
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/johnson-swearing-in4.jpg)
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This is another one of those ridiculous theories about the JFK case, this time cooked up by Dave Lifton, which made him a good amount of money. Lifton was hot back in the 80's when his book BEST EVIDENCE was on book shelves and libraries. He also appeared in the PBS documentary about the case.
The story goes like this:
After the body was placed in a casket at Parkland and put into the hearse, the caravan leaves for Love Field. According to this kooky theory, somehow and in some way, the casket, after being placed on the plane, is opened. The body is thrown down into the cargo hold. This is done while Kennedy's Irish Mafia and Jackie are standing guard by the coffin throughout the entire procession from the hospital to its arrival at Andrews.
From there, on live TV, the coffin you see on the live TV footage is supposedly empty while Kennedy's body is snuck out the back way of the airplane, thrown onto a helicopter and whisked off to Bethesda. This supposedly allows doctors to perform all manner of body alterations to the body to cover up the evidence of multiple shooters before the official autopsy was to begin.
Yeah, right. To wit:
Do you really think that someone, anyone, would have been allowed to open up the casket in full view of a tight and crowded airplane to throw the body down into the cargo hold in full view of the widow, Kennedy's staff and cronies?
Do you really think that anyone at all would not have noticed on the other side of the plane the body being removed and thrown on to a helicopter, in full view of a mass of people at Andrews along with TV cameras and lights?
The murder was mere hours old by the time of the Andrews arrival. How in the world would the doctors have known what to cover up on Kennedy's body when they didn't even know what happened in Dallas?
I debated this endlessly with old Dave Lifton over on another forum. Here's a highlight of it - http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23250-david-lifton-teases-final-charade-on-the-night-fright-show/page/28/?tab=comments#comment-371553
If you want to look elsewhere over there, use the keyword "scalpels" and you'll find more. Because that's what I called old Dave's theory - the Thrumming Copter and Mad Doctors with Scalpels at the Ready theory. His theory holds about as much water as the ridiculous Lee Oswald clone one.
You can call Lifton's theory ridiculous as much as you like, but you need to do it based upon firm evidence rather than pure speculation and absurd ridicule on your part. The mere fact that you have difficulties accepting or understanding that (at least part of) it could have happened as Lifton writes in his book, does not mean it didn't happen. It just means that you are not open minded enough to look at the available evidence honestly.
Regardless of what your opinion about Lifton's theory is, the facts are still there and need to be explained. There were at least two caskets delivered to Bethesda at different times and witnessed by different people. When somebody like Paul O'Connor says he removed Kennedy's body, in a body bag, from a grey shipping casket, that other witnesses confirmed bringing into the morgue long before Jacky Kennedy's party arrived there, that's something you can not dismiss as a mistaken memory or a lie to get 15 minutes of fame. When Jerrol Custer told the ARRB that he was taking X-rays of Kennedy's body to be developed when he saw Jacky and Robert Kennedy arrive, that needs to be explained rather than dismissed out of hand.
The multiple witnesses Lifton cites in his work, be they Bethesda staff, FBI agents, members of the honor guard or assistants at the autopsy, paint a very confusing picture about what exactly went on at Bethesda, when the event of the arrival of a casket containing the body of Kennedy should basically have been a simple straight forward matter. There has to be a way to explain this, right? Even if he didn't get everything 100% right (which btw is something nobody can determine for lack of sufficient information), Lifton at least tries to make some sense of it and even if some of his conclusions seem incomprehensible or unlikely at first glance, they nevertheless are the product of logical reasoning.
There are just too many witnesses to simply ignore the story they tell, but to dismiss the theory about what happened to the body during (or perhaps prior to) transport, you need to explain all the subsequent events also. Or are you just going with "the body wasn't removed from the casket, so all the events that happened afterwards were just inventions by all those witnesses"? I hope not, because would make you look extremely foolish.
So, can you explain the obvious discrepancies between the statements of all those witnesses or do you simply call them all mistaken because what they say does not fit in the story you prefer?
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When Jerrol Custer told the ARRB that he was taking X-rays of Kennedy's body to be developed when he saw Jacky and Robert Kennedy arrive, that needs to be explained rather than dismissed out of hand.
I think contradictions like this have simple explanations, but explanations which we might never know because we dont have all the facts. Jackie and Robert may have gone out to get a cup of coffee, come back in, and then Custer thought they were coming in for the first time.
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I think contradictions like this have simple explanations, but explanations which we might never know because we dont have all the facts. Jackie and Robert may have gone out to get a cup of coffee, come back in, and then Custer thought they were coming in for the first time.
I think contradictions like this have simple explanations, but explanations which we might never know because we dont have all the facts.
And why is it that we don't have all the facts? Because the "investigation" was flawed!
Jackie and Robert may have gone out to get a cup of coffee, come back in, and then Custer thought they were coming in for the first time.
Nice bit of wishful thinking, but the record as it stands is that Jackie and Robert went straight up to a room in Bethesda's tower and never left it.
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When Jerrol Custer told the ARRB that he was taking X-rays of Kennedy's body to be developed when he saw Jacky and Robert Kennedy arrive, that needs to be explained rather than dismissed out of hand.
If Lifton was right and there was a big operation to hide JFKs body, do you not think they'd have been a bit more careful than to have Custer taking xrays of the body when Jackie and Robert came in with another casket. I mean come on.
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If Lifton was right and there was a big operation to hide JFKs body, do you not think they'd have been a bit more careful than to have Custer taking xrays of the body when Jackie and Robert came in with another casket. I mean come on.
Why? Bethesda was and is a naval facility. All staff were sworn to absolute secrecy on penalty of a court martial. None of the men, O'Connor and Custer included, said a word about anything that happened at Bethesda that day until they were released from their duty to remain silent when they were being interviewed by the HSCA, some 15 years later. Had that not happened, they probably would have taken the information to their grave.
And Custer never saw Jackie and Robert come in with another casket. They just walked through the main entrance after leaving the hearse. The casket was delivered to the back of Bethesda. Custer saw them in the hallway and had no reason to assume they had come with another casket.
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And Custer never saw Jackie and Robert come in with another casket. They just walked through the main entrance after leaving the hearse. The casket was delivered to the back of Bethesda. Custer saw them in the hallway and had no reason to assume they had come with another casket.
Then there appears to be no contradiction at all. David Lifton and co reading way too much into things.
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If Lifton was right and there was a big operation to hide JFKs body, do you not think they'd have been a bit more careful than to have Custer taking xrays of the body when Jackie and Robert came in with another casket. I mean come on.
This sounds like another one of those "real conspirators never make mistakes" arguments.
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Then there appears to be no contradiction at all. David Lifton and co reading way too much into things.
Of course there is a contradiction, but Custer couldn't have known that at the time. He was taking X-rays of JFK to be developed when he saw Jackie and Robert enter the hallway of the building. He did not know if they just arrived or if they had been there for a while, so he had no reason to question the fact the Kennedy's body was already in the morgue. He only found out about the contradiction after he was allowed to talk about the case, some 15 years later.
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He only found out about the contradiction after he was allowed to talk about the case, some 15 years later.
15 years later is a long time to mix up the sequence of events. That could happen to anyone. That is a more reasonable excuse than JFKs body was switched.
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15 years later is a long time to mix up the sequence of events. That could happen to anyone. That is a more reasonable excuse than JFKs body was switched.
Actually, that would have to be the collective memory of a substantial number of people that need to be mixed up about the same sequence of events.
Reasonable of not, real life is often stranger than fiction. Just because you can't wrap your head around a particular scenario doesn't mean it couldn't have happened or didn't happen.
You have to take what the individual witnesses have said at face value and then look at the overall picture. When you do, you will find that those witnesses support eachother to such an extend that it would be nearly impossible for the sequence of events being different.
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As per You tube ' Len Osanic and Doug Horne The Airforce One Audio Tapes ' ! From about 1:12:00 to as long as you want to listen . There are some new details that I thought to be very interesting and states firmly that JFK's body was moved from Andrews AFB by ' Helicopter ' to Bethesda !!!!!!!
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As per You tube ' Len Osanic and Doug Horne The Airforce One Audio Tapes ' ! From about 1:12:00 to as long as you want to listen . There are some new details that I thought to be very interesting and states firmly that JFK's body was moved from Andrews AFB by ' Helicopter ' to Bethesda !!!!!!!
It was taken by hearse.
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It was taken by hearse.
You are going to have to prove that....
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You are going to have to prove that....
Roy Kellerman was there:
At 2:47 p.m., USAF 26000 was airborne for Washington, D.C., arriving at Andrews Air Force Base at 5:58 p.m., est.
While airborne, arrangements were made for a Naval ambulance from the New Naval Medical Center at Bethesda to be available at the airport. Upon landing we removed the casket, placed it into the ambulance. At the airport, Chief Rowley advised me that two FBI agents, Francis O'Neill, Jr., and James Siebert, had been assigned to this case and to allow them into the morgue at the U.S. Naval Hospital. I told Chief Rowley the cars would arrive at Andrews at about 8 p.m., and suggested he assign field agents to them to completely go over them for any evidence that might be found.
Mrs. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy and General McHugh sat in the rear of the ambulance- SAs Greer, Landis and myself with Dr. Burkley rode in the front to Bethesda, with a police escort. The body was immediately taken to the morgue and the family was assigned rooms in the Towers of the Center. Hill and Landis remained with Mrs. Kennedy in her quarters and William Greer and I remained in the morgue and viewed the autopsy examinations which were performed by Vice Admiral Gallway, Commanding Officer, NNMC, Chief Pathologist Cdr. James Humes, Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck who is Chief, Military Environmental Pathology Division and Chief of Wound Ballistics, Pathology Branch, and J. Thornton Boswell, Cdr. Medical Corps, USN, together with the Naval Medical Staff. SA O'Leary was also in the morgue briefly. Agents O'Neill and Siebert were present.
LINK: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sa-kelle.htm
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Roy Kellerman was there:
At 2:47 p.m., USAF 26000 was airborne for Washington, D.C., arriving at Andrews Air Force Base at 5:58 p.m., est.
While airborne, arrangements were made for a Naval ambulance from the New Naval Medical Center at Bethesda to be available at the airport. Upon landing we removed the casket, placed it into the ambulance. At the airport, Chief Rowley advised me that two FBI agents, Francis O'Neill, Jr., and James Siebert, had been assigned to this case and to allow them into the morgue at the U.S. Naval Hospital. I told Chief Rowley the cars would arrive at Andrews at about 8 p.m., and suggested he assign field agents to them to completely go over them for any evidence that might be found.
Mrs. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy and General McHugh sat in the rear of the ambulance- SAs Greer, Landis and myself with Dr. Burkley rode in the front to Bethesda, with a police escort. The body was immediately taken to the morgue and the family was assigned rooms in the Towers of the Center. Hill and Landis remained with Mrs. Kennedy in her quarters and William Greer and I remained in the morgue and viewed the autopsy examinations which were performed by Vice Admiral Gallway, Commanding Officer, NNMC, Chief Pathologist Cdr. James Humes, Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck who is Chief, Military Environmental Pathology Division and Chief of Wound Ballistics, Pathology Branch, and J. Thornton Boswell, Cdr. Medical Corps, USN, together with the Naval Medical Staff. SA O'Leary was also in the morgue briefly. Agents O'Neill and Siebert were present.
LINK: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sa-kelle.htm
At best, that only proves that the casket was transported by hearse to Bethesda. He assumed that the body was in it. Why would he think otherwise?
The problem is that Paul O'Connor and others are on record saying that they removed Kennedy's body in a body bag from a shipping casket.
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The problem is that Paul O'Connor and others are on record saying that they removed Kennedy's body in a body bag from a shipping casket.
The handles were broken off the casket. Maybe this is why there was confusion.
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Oh god, why do people keep thinking this and continue to talk about it? Why do plausibility and real-world events constantly get thrown out the window for some ridiculous fairy tale that Lifton cooked up and made a million bucks on?
How in the world would anyone know that early in the game what could possibly have happened in Dallas to start some stirring of stealing the body and performing all manner of body alterations? They had absolutely NO IDEA at that point what happened on Elm Street. None. So how in the world would they even know what to alter? And yet, to this day goofy people STILL believe goofy stories like the body being thrown down into the cargo hold and whisked away on a helicopter in full view of the widow, his brother and live TV cameras and TV lights. Whisked away so mad doctors with scalpels at the ready did "all manner" of body alterations.
Why? Why do people still believe this crap?
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The handles were broken off the casket. Maybe this is why there was confusion.
The only confusion seems to be in your mind.
How can Paul O'Connor and others remove Kennedy's body from a shipping casket, if the body was in the casket delivered by the hearse that also carried Jackie and Robert Kennedy?
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Oh god, why do people keep thinking this and continue to talk about it? Why do plausibility and real-world events constantly get thrown out the window for some ridiculous fairy tale that Lifton cooked up and made a million bucks on?
How in the world would anyone know that early in the game what could possibly have happened in Dallas to start some stirring of stealing the body and performing all manner of body alterations? They had absolutely NO IDEA at that point what happened on Elm Street. None. So how in the world would they even know what to alter? And yet, to this day goofy people STILL believe goofy stories like the body being thrown down into the cargo hold and whisked away on a helicopter in full view of the widow, his brother and live TV cameras and TV lights. Whisked away so mad doctors with scalpels at the ready did "all manner" of body alterations.
Why? Why do people still believe this crap?
Why do plausibility and real-world events constantly get thrown out the window for some ridiculous fairy tale
What plausible and real-world event are you talking about?
How in the world would anyone know that early in the game what could possibly have happened in Dallas to start some stirring of stealing the body and performing all manner of body alterations? They had absolutely NO IDEA at that point what happened on Elm Street. None. So how in the world would they even know what to alter?
What makes you say that they had no idea what happened on Elm Street?
And yet, to this day goofy people STILL believe goofy stories like the body being thrown down into the cargo hold and whisked away on a helicopter in full view of the widow, his brother and live TV cameras and TV lights. Whisked away so mad doctors with scalpels at the ready did "all manner" of body alterations.
Really? Is that what "goofy" people believe? Seems to me you prefer to make it easy on yourself to dismiss whatever evidence you don't like. Sure, Lifton's conclusion that the body must have been removed from the casket on the plane has it's problems, but one thing is for sure: Something did happen with the body somewhere!
How else can you explain that Paul O'Connor and others removed Kennedy's body from a shipping casket? How do you explain that Jerrol Custer told the ARRB that he was taking X-rays of Kennedy's body to be developed when he saw Jacky and Robert Kennedy arrive? Are they all lying? Are the people who brought in and saw the shipping casket lying? And if they are, why would they wait 15 years before they told their story to the HSCA? The people Lifton presents to us in his book and on video never made a penny from what they told him. They had nothing to gain and everything to lose, so why would all those men lie and tell a story that combined justified on only one conclusion?
Why? Why do people still believe this crap?
Why do you think it's crap?
Is it that you just don't want to believe it, that you can't wrap your head around a possibility you don't like, or do you actually have something more to bring to the discussion than just a biased opinion? Remember, "I don't believe it could have happened that way, so it didn't happen that way" isn't a particularly persuasive argument!
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For goodness sake, don't play coy here, Martin. Even as late as 11/27, the newspapers were reporting him turning almost completely around to take the shot in the temple. That day, the doctors were saying a shot in the temple. The cops were sending officers up to the overpass, then to the TSBD. But they still didn't know what happened. Even at the autopsy they couldn't figure out the direction of the shots. Only when the lawyers got a hold of things did they start formulating the official story, that Oswald alone acted and fired the shots from behind.
So tell us here - how would they have known what parts of the body to alter before the official autopsy happened when they didn't even know or have the full details yet? You seem to think that the bevy of doctors with scalpels at the ready would magically be able to cut into the head to "alter" things. It's a dumb theory, Martin.
There were plenty of Kennedy loyalists on the plane that day, Martin, who would have started a fight to have allowed some evil conspirator to open up the casket and throw it down into the cargo hold. And by the way, Martin, who was that evil conspirator on the plane who took the body out? Who, Martin? You say Dave's theory is problematic - it's even worst than that. It's ridiculous because it's a flight of fancy and never happened.
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1268954203286/ClearingThingsup-full.jpg)
I advise you to read these links:
http://www.patspeer.com/yourpagestitle
and
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter1b%3Aclearingthingsup
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For goodness sake, don't play coy here, Martin. Even as late as 11/27, the newspapers were reporting him turning almost completely around to take the shot in the temple. That day, the doctors were saying a shot in the temple. The cops were sending officers up to the overpass, then to the TSBD. But they still didn't know what happened. Even at the autopsy they couldn't figure out the direction of the shots. Only when the lawyers got a hold of things did they start formulating the official story, that Oswald alone acted and fired the shots from behind.
So tell us here - how would they have known what parts of the body to alter before the official autopsy happened when they didn't even know or have the full details yet? You seem to think that the bevy of doctors with scalpels at the ready would magically be able to cut into the head to "alter" things. It's a dumb theory, Martin.
There were plenty of Kennedy loyalists on the plane that day, Martin, who would have started a fight to have allowed some evil conspirator to open up the casket and throw it down into the cargo hold. And by the way, Martin, who was that evil conspirator on the plane who took the body out? Who, Martin? You say Dave's theory is problematic - it's even worst than that. It's ridiculous because it's a flight of fancy and never happened.
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1268954203286/ClearingThingsup-full.jpg)
I advise you to read these links:
http://www.patspeer.com/yourpagestitle
and
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter1b%3Aclearingthingsup
For goodness sake, don't play coy here, Martin.
Am I?
Even as late as 11/27, the newspapers were reporting him turning almost completely around to take the shot in the temple. That day, the doctors were saying a shot in the temple. The cops were sending officers up to the overpass, then to the TSBD. But they still didn't know what happened.
Who are "they"?
Even at the autopsy they couldn't figure out the direction of the shots.
Really? I seem to recall autopsy photos of a bullet hole in Kennedy's back and head? The only thing they missed was the throat wound, which the doctors in Dallas said it was a wound of entry but the autopsy doctors nevertheless concluded that it was an exit wound. And they made that determination based on a phone call and an assumption rather than a proper examination. Go figure....
Only when the lawyers got a hold of things did they start formulating the official story, that Oswald alone acted and fired the shots from behind.
What lawyers and what "things" did they get hold of? Be precise!
So tell us here - how would they have known what parts of the body to alter before the official autopsy happened when they didn't even know or have the full details yet?
You keep saying that, but you really need to explain what "full details" were missing. An autopsy doctor doesn't need to know about the crime scene and the location(s) of victim(s) and shooter(s). All an autopsy doctor needs to do is examine the body and determine where the shots came from. An autopsy doctor is not a crime scene investigator. If - and this is hypothetical - the instruction was that the wounds on the body had to reflect shots from the back, the doctors would have had all the information they needed.
You seem to think that the bevy of doctors with scalpels at the ready would magically be able to cut into the head to "alter" things. It's a dumb theory, Martin.
It's also a theory that lives in your head only. I never said anything of the kind, so why don't you stop making assumptions and provide some facts instead.
There were plenty of Kennedy loyalists on the plane that day, Martin, who would have started a fight to have allowed some evil conspirator to open up the casket and throw it down into the cargo hold. And by the way, Martin, who was that evil conspirator on the plane who took the body out? Who, Martin?
All you seem to be able to do is ask questions to which I couldn't possibly have the answers. At the same time you seem also unable to provide an answer to my question about the HSCA testimony of Paul O'Connor, Jerrol Custer and others. Why is that? Is it easier to dismiss the theory about what could have happened on the plane and ignore the rest? Is that it?
You say Dave's theory is problematic - it's even worst than that. It's ridiculous because it's a flight of fancy and never happened.
Let's get one thing straight; You were not there and don't have a clue about what happened or not! All you've got is an opinion. Now, that's fine, but when you voice that opinion and present it as fact you should really try to make it more persuasive by - for instance - also explaining how and why Kennedy's body ended up in a body bag and in a shipping casket.
Now, before I confuse you any further. I do indeed consider Lifton's theory about a body snatch on the plane somewhat problematic and it may well be that it never happened. But if that's true, there needs to be another explanantion for how Kennedy's body could leave Dallas in a ornamental casket and arrive at Bethesda in a grey shipping casket. So, what happened there?
I advise you to read these links:
http://www.patspeer.com/yourpagestitle
and
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter1b%3Aclearingthingsup
Thanks for the advise. Now why don't you tell me what you have taken away from Pat Speer's writings?
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Why would so many Doctors and Nurses at Parkland talk of the blown out hole in the back of JFK's head that they had seen ! Arlen Specter asked Clint Hill at his Warren Commission Testimony . Mr. Specter --What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital ? Mr. Hill -- The right rear portion of his head was missing . It was lying in the rear seat of his car. His brain was exposed .There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car . Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood . There was so much blood that you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not , except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head ! Clint Hill told the truth . He was right there ! As per the radio transmission between the plane and the White House about the helicopter to take the body of JFK , it is right on the radio transmission . The JFK casket which was empty was taken off one side and put in the grey Navy ambulance along with Jackie & Bobby Kennedy while JFK's body was taken off the jet from the other side and placed in the helicopter in the dark ! That is the reason for JFK's body to have time to be altered . If you saw the gash that was made for the throat frontal entry you would have thought that Dr. Malcolm Perry was a butcher . Dr. Malcolm Perry made the Trach. incision on top of the bullet hole which Perry said was an entry wound . Dr. Robert McClelland's said that Dr. Perry was very skilled with the scalpel and there would not be an incision that looked like a gash that was seen at Bethesda . Dr. McClellands position at the head of the gurney on which Kennedy lay gave him a close look at the severe wound at the back of the Presidents head . The :posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted , " he told the Commission . About a 1/3 of the Presidents brain tissue was gone , Dr. McClelland said !
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Let's try a hypothetical scenario for a second.
Most people can't figure out how a magic trick works until it is explained to them. That's when they all go; "is it really that simple? Now why didn't I think of that?" An essential part of any magic trick is misdirection.
In the conversations between Airforce One and the White House the possibility of a decoy hearse was one of the things being discussed as well as transportation of the body to Bethesda by helicopter. So, here's the hypothetical; what if the use of a decoy came into play when Kennedy's body was still at Parkland Hospital? What if the ornamental casket was empty all along and merely served as a decoy to draw attention away from the actual transportation of the body to Love Field?
In other words, what if Kennedy's body was already removed from the ornamental casket and placed in a inconspicuous grey shipping casket at Parkland Hospital?
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Let's try a hypothetical scenario for a second.
Most people can't figure out how a magic trick works until it is explained to them. That's when they all go; "is it really that simple? Now why didn't I think of that?" An essential part of any magic trick is misdirection.
In the conversations between Airforce One and the White House the possibility of a decoy hearse was one of the things being discussed as well as transportation of the body to Bethesda by helicopter. So, here's the hypothetical; what if the use of a decoy came into play when Kennedy's body was still at Parkland Hospital? What if the ornamental casket was empty all along and merely served as a decoy to draw attention away from the actual transportation of the body to Love Field?
In other words, what if Kennedy's body was already removed from the ornamental casket and placed in a inconspicuous grey shipping casket at Parkland Hospital?
And Parklnd personnel and Secret Servicemen all said nothing, for the next 50+ years? because?
the second Oswald is out there, on the prowl?
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And Parklnd personnel and Secret Servicemen all said nothing, for the next 50+ years? because?
the second Oswald is out there, on the prowl?
What Parkland personnel and Secret Servicemen would that be, exactly?
The most important part of using a decoy operation is that, except for those directly involved, nobody knows anything about it. A decoy is about misdirection. When Kennedy was declared dead everybody left the emergency unit. The last persons, we know of, to see the President at Parkland were the people who put his body in the ornamental casket. What happened after that is anybody's guess.
Just how long after the body had been placed in the ornamental casket did the Secret Service men steal (because that's what it was) the casket? Could all the commotion about taking Kennedy to Washington have been the distraction they needed to sneak the shipping casket out of the hospital? It's a hypothetical scenario but can it be dismissed as wrong?
Do you have another plausible explanation for how Paul O'Connor and others could have removed Kennedy, in a body bag, from a grey shipping casket? There needs to be an explanation for that, unless of course you dismiss their combined testimony to the HSCA as lies. Are you one of those people who does that?
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What Parkland personnel and Secret Servicemen would that be, exactly?
The most important part of using a decoy operation is that, except for those directly involved, nobody knows anything about it. A decoy is about misdirection. When Kennedy was declared dead everybody left the emergency unit. The last persons, we know of, to see the President at Parkland were the people who put his body in the ornamental casket. What happened after that is anybody's guess.
Just how long after the body had been placed in the ornamental casket did the Secret Service men steal (because that's what it was) the casket? Could all the commotion about taking Kennedy to Washington have been the distraction they needed to sneak the shipping casket out of the hospital? It's a hypothetical scenario but can it be dismissed as wrong?
Do you have another plausible explanation for how Paul O'Connor and others could have removed Kennedy, in a body bag, from a grey shipping casket? There needs to be an explanation for that, unless of course you dismiss their combined testimony to the HSCA as lies. Are you one of those people who does that?
I try to maintain a healthy skepticism.
Until I see evidence.
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I try to maintain a healthy skepticism.
Until I see evidence.
Evidence for what exactly?
That Kennedy's body was in a body bag when Paul O'Connor and others removed it from a grey shipping casket? Too many people need to have lied, without reason, for it not to be true. And that means it needs to be explained.
I try to maintain a healthy skepticism.
As do I... which is why I presented a hypothetical rather than a claim.
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Remember the grey shipping casket arrived at 6.35 p.m.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hcd97ZPH/Boyajan-report.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Hcd97ZPH)
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MARTY: As do I... which is why I presented a hypothetical rather than a claim.
Really? So let me get this straight. You really believe, with no evidence to back it up, no statements by *anyone* who was there that day, that some how the body was thrown down into the cargo hold on 26000 and then snuck out the back of the plane and thrown onto a helicopter?
Or you also believe, with no evidence to back it up, no statements by *anyone* who was there that day, that some how the body was in the coffin that's seen coming out of the plane and is put into the hearse, in full view of the nation and live TV cameras and the widow, family and others, that upon leaving Andrews that the hearse pulls over and a decoy takes its place so that the hearse with Jackie and the body goes on somewhere so that mad doctors can start carving up the body?
That's the basis of your skepticism? You actually and truly believe that your skepticism would allow you to even take a step toward a ridiculous hypothetical?
BAWAWAHAHAHA! OMG!
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MARTY: As do I... which is why I presented a hypothetical rather than a claim.
Really? So let me get this straight. You really believe, with no evidence to back it up, no statements by *anyone* who was there that day, that some how the body was thrown down into the cargo hold on 26000 and then snuck out the back of the plane and thrown onto a helicopter?
Or you also believe, with no evidence to back it up, no statements by *anyone* who was there that day, that some how the body was in the coffin that's seen coming out of the plane and is put into the hearse, in full view of the nation and live TV cameras and the widow, family and others, that upon leaving Andrews that the hearse pulls over and a decoy takes its place so that the hearse with Jackie and the body goes on somewhere so that mad doctors can start carving up the body?
That's the basis of your skepticism? You actually and truly believe that your skepticism would allow you to even take a step toward a ridiculous hypothetical?
BAWAWAHAHAHA! OMG!
No, I believe know that you purposely misrepresent what I have been saying. You can make up as much as you like, but you only end up looking like a fool.
When all you have is "BAWAWAHAHAHA! OMG!" you actually have nothing at all. Your inability to formulate a basic, cohesive and coherent argument disqualifies you from any reasonable discussion.
It seems making up strawman arguments is more your thing than dealing with the actual evidence. Please stop wasting my time with your childisch BS and get back to me when you have a plausible explanation for how Kennedy's body arrived at Bethesda in a body bag in a shipping casket. Until then, you've got no credibility at all.
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MARTY - No, I believe know that you purposely misrepresent what I have been saying. You can make up as much as you like, but you only end up looking like a fool.
Instead of discussing the merits here, you seem to keep dodging, hemming and hawing. Further, in order for this ridiculous theory to work, you can't just pick and choose from it and say "see - it happened!" So you think the body, wrapped in sheets as testified by the nurse in TX, was in a body bag later. Great! But that doesn't prove the body alteration story Lifton cooked up. And you can't stop there. You have to work backwards - how was the body wrappings changed? Who said it? Where is the proof of it?
You yourself said several posts above that Dave's ridiculous theory was "problematic." OK, great. You know there's problems with it. So instead of diving into it head first, why don't you list here the "problematic" aspects of this goofy theory and we can debate from there. Otherwise, you're simply dodging discussing the merits of this dumb theory.
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MARTY - No, I believe know that you purposely misrepresent what I have been saying. You can make up as much as you like, but you only end up looking like a fool.
Instead of discussing the merits here, you seem to keep dodging, hemming and hawing. Further, in order for this ridiculous theory to work, you can't just pick and choose from it and say "see - it happened!" So you think the body, wrapped in sheets as testified by the nurse in TX, was in a body bag later. Great! But that doesn't prove the body alteration story Lifton cooked up. And you can't stop there. You have to work backwards - how was the body wrappings changed? Who said it? Where is the proof of it?
You yourself said several posts above that Dave's ridiculous theory was "problematic." OK, great. You know there's problems with it. So instead of diving into it head first, why don't you list here the "problematic" aspects of this goofy theory and we can debate from there. Otherwise, you're simply dodging discussing the merits of this dumb theory.
This is even a worse reply than your previous "BAWAWAHAHAHA! OMG!"
Instead of discussing the merits here, you seem to keep dodging, hemming and hawing.
Coming from a guy who hasn't discussed one iota of the merits of anything, this is pathetically hilarious. And what merits are you on about, anyway?
Instead of discussing the merits, and telling us what you think, your entire post is about me. Why is that? Do you really think that a pathetic focus on me can obscure that fact that you have had nothing of any value to add to the discussion so far?
Further, in order for this ridiculous theory to work, you can't just pick and choose from it and say "see - it happened!"
And where exactly, other than in your head, did I do that?
If I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that if the "body snatch on the plane" theory isn't correct, everything else about Lifton's theory isn't correct either. If that is indeed what you are saying then you are even more superficial and wrong as I thought you were. Even if it could be 100% proven that Kennedy's body wasn't removed from the ornamental casket on the plane, that still would not alter the fact that several witnesses have testified that Kennedy's body was removed from a shipping casket at Bethesda. In other words, there needs to be an explanation for that! And my hypothetical offers precisely such an explanation.
So you think the body, wrapped in sheets as testified by the nurse in TX, was in a body bag later. Great!
It's not important what I think. The fact is that the people who removed Kennedy's body from the shipping casket said it was in a body bag. So, don't make this about me. Respond to what the HSCA testimony of these men says.
But that doesn't prove the body alteration story Lifton cooked up.
I never said it did.... You seem to have got so many strawman arguments in your head that you haven't got a clue about what I actually have said. This might even confuse you more than you already are, but a decoy scenario like the body being removed from Parkland in a shipping casket doesn't have to have a nefarious motive.
And you can't stop there. You have to work backwards - how was the body wrappings changed? Who said it? Where is the proof of it?
Working backwards from what? Be more specific! I don't know who (or even if) the body wrappings were changed. The fact that Paul O'Connor and others found Kennedy's body in a body bag doesn't mean that the wrapping of towels around his head (because that's all it was) wasn't still there. You need to stop making up stuff and start dealing with the factual evidence instead.
You yourself said several posts above that Dave's ridiculous theory was "problematic." OK, great. You know there's problems with it
Sure, so what?
So instead of diving into it head first, why don't you list here the "problematic" aspects of this goofy theory and we can debate from there.
Why should I give you such a list, when I have not made any comments about the "body snatch on the plane" theory, beyond that it is problematic. There is nothing to debate. I'm not dancing to your music!
If we are to debate something it should be the hypothetical possibility I offered that Kennedy's body was already removed from the ornamental casket and placed in a shipping casket at Parkland Hospital, with the ornamental casket subsequently being used as a decoy. So far, you have stayed away completely from discussing this hypothetical possibility. Why is that? Could it be this one is less problematic than the "body snatch on the plane" theory and therefor more difficult for you to dismiss?
Otherwise, you're simply dodging discussing the merits of this dumb theory.
What dumb theory would that be? If it is the "body snatch on the plane" theory, I don't have to dodge discussing it, because there is nothing to discuss. I have stated that I feel it is a problematic theory for obvious reasons, and that's all I am going to say about that.
If it is the "body removed from casket at Parkland" theory, the only one dodging that one is you. Just like you have dodged my question about Kennedy's body arriving at Bethesda in a body bag in a shipping casket.
If you think (as you seem to) that Kennedy's body was in the ornamental casket all the way from Parkland Hospital to Bethesda, you need to explain how it can be that several witnesses, independently from eachother, saw Kennedy's body, in a body bag, being removed from a shipping casket at Bethesda. But as you have so far dodged doing so, I doubt I will get a plausible explanantion from you any time soon.
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And the dodge continues...
You yourself said several posts above that Dave's ridiculous theory was "problematic." OK, great. You know there's problems with it
Sure, so what? - I'm still waiting for you to list the problematic aspects of Lifton's ridiculous theory. And by the way, there are plenty of articles out there about how Lifton asks leading questions to get the desired result.
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And the dodge continues...
You yourself said several posts above that Dave's ridiculous theory was "problematic." OK, great. You know there's problems with it
Sure, so what? - I'm still waiting for you to list the problematic aspects of Lifton's ridiculous theory. And by the way, there are plenty of articles out there about how Lifton asks leading questions to get the desired result.
Why are you so desperately trying to discuss the "body snatch on the plane theory", when there is no point whatsoever of having such a discussion with me. You can't possibly be so dumb that you don't understand you are talking to the wrong guy about the wrong subject, can you?
I'm not dodging anything. I'm just not playing along with your silly little game.
If you want to have a discussion, then try to explain how Kennedy's body ended up in a body bag being delivered to Bethesda in a shipping casket. It's either that or stop wasting my time.
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Don't take my word for it. Here you go:
Horne referred to it as the Boyajian report. Roger Boyajian was a Marine Sgt. on duty at Bethesda on the 22nd. He led a small detail of men that day called the Honor Guard.[66] According to Horne, Boyajian wrote a report the next day that proves that it was his detail that actually brought in Kennedy’s casket at the earlier time of 6:35. Therefore Lifton and his body switching idea are upheld. In my review of Horne’s series, I did not mention Boyajian or his report. This was supposed to be dealt with by Gary Aguilar in another review of Horne’s series. Unfortunately Aguilar was going through a long and complicated divorce process that entailed him having to relocate. So he never got around to writing his review.
Well, Livingstone deals with the issue at length here, and in my opinion he does a good job with it. It would appear that Horne oversold the document and Livingstone uses the opportunity to really pile onto Horne with a lot of invective. I wouldn’t go as far as he does in that regard but let us spell out some of the problems that the document has and that Horne did not elucidate very well.
First, the actual report does not say that the casket picked up by Boyajian’s men was President Kennedy’s.[67] In the one sentence that deals with the issue it is referred to only as “the casket”. As Livingstone properly notes, this is a serious fault with Horne’s claim. It is hard to believe that if Boyajian knew he was handling JFK’s casket, would he not write that down and specifically note that fact?
Further, there is a real problem of authentication as this report is not signed by Boyajian and there is no trace in the record as to why he did not sign it. There is a second page to the report that lists the ten men in the detail – none of which signed the document either. What makes it all a bit worse is that when the ARRB questioned Boyajian about whether he recalled picking up Kennedy’s casket, Boyajian couldn’t recall doing so.[68] In fact, he could not recall much at all about that day. And importantly, it does not appear that the report the ARRB had was the original document leading us to question as to whether or not that original was ever filed with the military.[69] All of this seems strange if the casket really was Kennedy’s.
Additionally, Livingstone shows, if one lives in the area, as he did, it is very hard to understand how Horne could buy into this idea without questions. After all, Horne did live in Washington while working for the ARRB. As Livingstone describes it, the route through downtown Washington from Andrews AFB to Bethesda is about 18 miles.[70] But yet for the Boyajian report to say what Horne declares it says, somehow this transport traversed the 18 miles in about 20 minutes.[71] Unless the driver was proceeding at a continuous 60 MPH on city streets, this does not seem possible.
AF1
There was no trap door near where the coffin was located on the return trip from Dallas on November 22, 1963. The square grille in the near foreground was directly under the bathroom in the Presidential suite in 1963. The space where a trapdoor was claimed to have been would have been all the way at the rear of the cargo hold in the middle. In addition, according to Boeing diagrams and blueprints, there are any number of control cables and wires running through the floor down the center aisle which would have precluded any kind of trap door being in that area. Boeing's diagrams from 1962 (when the plane was placed into service (in October, 1962)) do not show any trap door in the rear of the plane leading to the rear cargo hold. (Photo Courtesy Jamie Sawa)
As Livingstone explains, Boyajian did not pick up Kennedy’s casket. Bethesda is also a morgue. It did not stop being so just because Kennedy was being transported there that day. Other military men died that day. After all, America was involved in a war. Livingstone interviewed several people who identified another person’s body being delivered to the morgue that day. There was no autopsy done and his body was being stored in the “Cold Room” for burial at Arlington.[72] The weight of the evidence seems to dictate that it was this person’s body that Boyajian’s detail picked up.
There are other good points that Livingstone develops to counter some of the excesses in Horne’s books. For instance, the issue of Roy Kellerman having blood on his shirt aboard Air Force One does not mean that Kellerman was somehow performing surgery on JFK’s body in a secret compartment. Kellerman helped get Kennedy’s body out of the limousine and onto a gurney at Parkland. [73] And concerning the alleged secret compartment, Livingstone supplies some good photos illustrating the work of James Sawa showing that there was “no trap door leading from the rear baggage compartment up to the rear of the aircraft.” This vitiates one of the earlier theories Lifton had about secret surgery on board Air Force One.[74]
When I reviewed Horne’s series, I concluded that he needed a tough-minded editor to reduce the size and scope of the book to highlight the good things he had done. Livingstone says the same about Horne.[75] Yet he does not note the irony that this same criticism could be easily applied to Kaleidoscope. This book could effortlessly have been reduced in size by at least one half. Probably even more. And it would have been much more valuable and pointed. What is worse is Livingstone had a valuable model in front of him that he knew about – one that avoided all the conspiracy bantering about the JFK research community. The late Roger Feinman wrote The Signal and the Noise, a long critique of Best Evidence, back in the nineties. [76] It was much shorter than Kaleidoscope. But Feinman avoided most of the pitfalls that Livingstone did not. Livingstone, who much admired Feinman’s work, seemed to forget what made Roger’s critique valuable when he wrote Kaleidoscope.
Source - https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/livingstone-harrison-e-kaleidoscope
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Don't take my word for it. Here you go:
<> Text deleted to save bandwith.
Source - https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/livingstone-harrison-e-kaleidoscope
So you don't even have an opinion of your own. Got it...
First, the actual report does not say that the casket picked up by Boyajian’s men was President Kennedy’s.[67] In the one sentence that deals with the issue it is referred to only as “the casket”. As Livingstone properly notes, this is a serious fault with Horne’s claim. It is hard to believe that if Boyajian knew he was handling JFK’s casket, would he not write that down and specifically note that fact?
Further, there is a real problem of authentication as this report is not signed by Boyajian and there is no trace in the record as to why he did not sign it. There is a second page to the report that lists the ten men in the detail – none of which signed the document either. What makes it all a bit worse is that when the ARRB questioned Boyajian about whether he recalled picking up Kennedy’s casket, Boyajian couldn’t recall doing so.[68] In fact, he could not recall much at all about that day. And importantly, it does not appear that the report the ARRB had was the original document leading us to question as to whether or not that original was ever filed with the military.[69] All of this seems strange if the casket really was Kennedy’s.
What a pathetic load of barely circumstantial crap to build a "conclusion" on. The record is clear on this; Boyajian’s men brought a shipping casket in to the Bethesda morgue at 6.35. The mere circumstance that he did not write in his report (which btw is in the record as being authentic!) who was in the casket doesn't alter that fact.
Additionally, Livingstone shows, if one lives in the area, as he did, it is very hard to understand how Horne could buy into this idea without questions. After all, Horne did live in Washington while working for the ARRB. As Livingstone describes it, the route through downtown Washington from Andrews AFB to Bethesda is about 18 miles.[70] But yet for the Boyajian report to say what Horne declares it says, somehow this transport traversed the 18 miles in about 20 minutes.[71] Unless the driver was proceeding at a continuous 60 MPH on city streets, this does not seem possible.
Which is why it was delivered by helicopter. Duh!
As Livingstone explains, Boyajian did not pick up Kennedy’s casket. Bethesda is also a morgue. It did not stop being so just because Kennedy was being transported there that day. Other military men died that day. After all, America was involved in a war. Livingstone interviewed several people who identified another person’s body being delivered to the morgue that day. There was no autopsy done and his body was being stored in the “Cold Room” for burial at Arlington.[72] The weight of the evidence seems to dictate that it was this person’s body that Boyajian’s detail picked up.
Too bad he doesn't name the other person who was delivered to the morgue that day. Nor does he give a time for the delivery. It seems there is no "weight of the evidence" at all! Just pure speculation.
All the piece above does is attack Horne. What it doesn't do is explain how Paul O'Connor, Jerrol Custer and others at the morgue saw Kennedy's body, in a body bag, being removed from a shipping casket. The same shipping casket the report from the funeral home said Kennedy's body had been removed from.
One guy's opinion about another guy's opinion isn't proof of anything. In other words, even when you hide behind a quote from someone else, you've got nothing. Care to try again?
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Marty - opinions don't matter. As you can see, I've posted some info for you here about why this theory is crazy. Some well-researched evidence to show that the cargo door didn't have a trapdoor and other things. Of course you're taking it all personally and this often happens with many CTers as well as LNers. As soon as you disagree with their often crazy ideas, they get all hurt and start whining and making it about them. I used to be a member of another forum and this happened all of the time until they kicked me off of that forum. But their ideas about what happened on 11/22 were just as ridiculous and outrageous as the dumb Dave Lifton body swap and alteration fairy tale.
This is not about me, Marty. It's about seeking the truth - the real truth - about the Kennedy murder. That's why I come here and go to other forums as well, Marty. So I can learn about evidence that shows that what happened that day didn't happen the way the official story told it. There's plenty of real-world evidence that shows that Oswald was not just some nobody who decided to take his gun into his workplace that and score three perfect shots that day. There were way too many coincidences for it to be mere happenstance.
But the murder didn't need some by-the-thousands-involved backstory to make it happen. There was simply no need to squirrel the body away, throw it down into the hold and alter the wounds. There was no need to find an Oswald lookalike in Europe 10 whole years before 11/22 - and to just so happen to have this European kid's Mom look exactly like the TX Oswald, to boot. There was no need to take the Z film and remove 67% of the frames of it to cover up something, when the unaltered film already shows that the shots didn't happen the way they said they happened. It's all just flat-lander, UFO-ish craziness. But you go right on ahead and believe whatever you want to believe while also remaining skeptical.
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Marty - opinions don't matter. As you can see, I've posted some info for you here about why this theory is crazy. Some well-researched evidence to show that the cargo door didn't have a trapdoor and other things. Of course you're taking it all personally and this often happens with many CTers as well as LNers. As soon as you disagree with their often crazy ideas, they get all hurt and start whining and making it about them. I used to be a member of another forum and this happened all of the time until they kicked me off of that forum. But their ideas about what happened on 11/22 were just as ridiculous and outrageous as the dumb Dave Lifton body swap and alteration fairy tale.
This is not about me, Marty. It's about seeking the truth - the real truth - about the Kennedy murder. That's why I come here and go to other forums as well, Marty. So I can learn about evidence that shows that what happened that day didn't happen the way the official story told it. There's plenty of real-world evidence that shows that Oswald was not just some nobody who decided to take his gun into his workplace that and score three perfect shots that day. There were way too many coincidences for it to be mere happenstance.
But the murder didn't need some by-the-thousands-involved backstory to make it happen. There was simply no need to squirrel the body away, throw it down into the hold and alter the wounds. There was no need to find an Oswald lookalike in Europe 10 whole years before 11/22 - and to just so happen to have this European kid's Mom look exactly like the TX Oswald, to boot. There was no need to take the Z film and remove 67% of the frames of it to cover up something, when the unaltered film already shows that the shots didn't happen the way they said they happened. It's all just flat-lander, UFO-ish craziness. But you go right on ahead and believe whatever you want to believe while also remaining skeptical.
Marty - opinions don't matter. As you can see, I've posted some info for you here about why this theory is crazy.
No, you've posted somebody else's very questional circumstantial opinion about something I wasn't even discussing with you.
Some well-researched evidence to show that the cargo door didn't have a trapdoor and other things.
Well-researched? Don't make me laugh. Anybody who, as I have, has been on board 26000 knows exactly what the situation is. Why do you think I called that part of Lifton's theory problematic?
Of course you're taking it all personally and this often happens with many CTers as well as LNers. As soon as you disagree with their often crazy ideas, they get all hurt and start whining and making it about them
Is the weather nice in fairyland? I didn't take anything personally, because there was nothing to take personally to begin with. You foolishly seem to believe that you disagree with an "idea" of mine, when no such "idea" exists or has ever been expressed!
I used to be a member of another forum and this happened all of the time until they kicked me off of that forum.
Well, when you start making up stuff about what another member opinion is, when that member has never expressed that opinion, perhaps you were kicked off for a reason.
This is not about me, Marty. It's about seeking the truth - the real truth - about the Kennedy murder.
Oh, but it is about you. You've already made up your mind which is why you started your first post in this thread with a complete dismissal.
Oh god, why do people keep thinking this and continue to talk about it? Why do plausibility and real-world events constantly get thrown out the window for some ridiculous fairy tale that Lifton cooked up and made a million bucks on?
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Why? Why do people still believe this crap?
and you haven't been willing to consider anything that doesn't agree with your point of view. So, please spare me the sanctimonious crap of only being here for the truth.
There's plenty of real-world evidence that shows that Oswald was not just some nobody who decided to take his gun into his workplace that and score three perfect shots that day. There were way too many coincidences for it to be mere happenstance.
And for once, you say something that I can agree with. Thumb1:
But the murder didn't need some by-the-thousands-involved backstory to make it happen.
True.
There was simply no need to squirrel the body away, throw it down into the hold and alter the wounds. There was no need to find an Oswald lookalike in Europe 10 whole years before 11/22 - and to just so happen to have this European kid's Mom look exactly like the TX Oswald, to boot. There was no need to take the Z film and remove 67% of the frames of it to cover up something, when the unaltered film already shows that the shots didn't happen the way they said they happened. It's all just flat-lander, UFO-ish craziness.
To some extend I agree with this also. Some of the CT scenarios are just as outlandisch as the LN scenario. I take issue with a great deal of them. So, if you want to discuss "Harvey and Lee" type of scenarios and Z film alterations, I'm the wrong person to talk to.
But you go right on ahead and believe whatever you want to believe while also remaining skeptical.
What the hell is that supposed to mean? All I do is practice what you only preach. I do not dismiss an entire theory simply because I think part of that theory isn't plausible.
Whether you like it or not, the fact remains that there are too many witnesses who, independently from eachother and with nothing to gain, have combined confirmed that at Bethesda, Kennedy's body, in a body bag, was removed from a shipping casket. Nobody has ever come close to providing a plausible explanation for that.
So, even if the "body snatch on the plane" theory is wrong, it still needs to be explained how Kennedy's body ended up in a shipping casket. The "decoy" hypothetical I presented could offer that explanation, but you - as somebody who claims to be looking for the truth - have done everything you could so far not to discuss it.