JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Charles Collins on June 13, 2019, 03:31:22 PM
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This description, found in an old online auction, says:
Oswald has made notes and edits in pencil in "The M1 Rifle" chapter, the only handwritten notes in the book. On page 171, the first page of the chapter, the listing of "Average rate of aimed fire per minute" is "30 rounds." Oswald has crossed out "30" and written "16-24."
In trying to figure out why he would make that notation, I have the following suggestion based on my conjecture. The reduced rate is more in line with a bolt action rifle like Oswald’s Carcano. Marina has reportedly said that LHO practiced aiming and dry firing his rifle on the porch in New Orleans. Perhaps that rate is what he found he could do with the Carcano? Just a thought. What do you think?
Oswald's signed Guidebook for Marines with corrections by him in the "Rifle" chapter plus documents related to Oswald's 1963 arrest in New Orleans
(1) Lee Harvey Oswald Guidebook for Marines Signed "PVT. LEE H. OSWALD/NO. 1653230" in light pencil in block letters on title page, 476 pages, 6.5" x 8.25". Published by the Leatherneck Association, Inc. Washington, D.C. Fifth Revised Edition, First Printing, January 1, 1956. From the Preface: "This fifth revision of the original Guidebook For Marines is the result of a combined effort by Headquarters, U.S. Marine Corps, Marine Corps Schools and Leatherneck Magazine..." Stamped in the upper margin on the title page, lightly on page 80, and on page 91, is "L H. OSWALD." Worn, heavily creased fabrikoid covers, copiously illustrated with photographs and diagrams. Torn spine with front cover and spine partially separated from the text. The first 90 pages, including the title page, are dog-eared in the lower right, decreasing in degree, page by page. The last 120 pages, 353-476, are dog-eared in the upper right, increasing in degree, page by page. Some other pages have tears at the corners or are dog-eared to a lesser extent. The "53" of Oswald's Service Serial Number has been effaced. Of special interest is Chapter15, "The M1 Rifle."
Oswald has made notes and edits in pencil in "The M1 Rifle" chapter, the only handwritten notes in the book. On page 171, the first page of the chapter, the listing of "Average rate of aimed fire per minute" is "30 rounds." Oswald has crossed out "30" and written "16-24." [The Warren Report concluded that "the three shots were fired in a time period ranging from approximately 4.8 to in excess of 7 seconds"]. On page 180, he's crossed out the word "Movement" in "Movement of the operating rod" replacing it with "action." On page 181, Oswald replaced "Action of the follower" with "(feeding)" and underlined the first word in "Termination of rearward movement." On page 189, the last page of the chapter, in the subchapter headed "Sight Setting," he has underlined the 15 words (here in quotes) explaining the elevating and windage knob clicks on the rifle, with each click representing "1 minute of angle or approximately 1 inch on the target for each 100 yards" of range. [The Warren Report stated "The President was 265.3 feet from the rifle in the sixth-floor window and at that position the approximate angle of declination was 15°21'.331."]
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Yes, this is an interesting observation ...
However, from my experience this is only a classroom annotation in the presence of the shooting instructor since military guides are not always complete.
Rate of fire, rate of aimed fire and rate of effective fire is not the same.
You may get 60 rounds off by just repeatingly pulling the trigger but only 30 rounds when aiming with a military configured trigger, PROVIDED that you have a 30 round clip/magazine.
However, If you start having already loaded a clip with 8 rounds, then managing to load another clip gives you 16 rounds and yet another clip, 24 rounds.
The M1 clip is not easy to load, specially when you do not want to hurt your thumb. Add to this that you may be in mud and snow keeping your head down doesn't make it work faster for you.
I used to teach and train new soldiers and even practiced with the M1 as a secondary rifle.
(I first registered to this forum in 2013)
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Yes, this is an interesting observation ...
However, from my experience this is only a classroom annotation in the presence of the shooting instructor since military guides are not always complete.
Rate of fire, rate of aimed fire and rate of effective fire is not the same.
You may get 60 rounds off by just repeatingly pulling the trigger but only 30 rounds when aiming with a military configured trigger, PROVIDED that you have a 30 round clip/magazine.
However, If you start having already loaded a clip with 8 rounds, then managing to load another clip gives you 16 rounds and yet another clip, 24 rounds.
The M1 clip is not easy to load, specially when you do not want to hurt your thumb. Add to this that you may be in mud and snow keeping your head down doesn't make it work faster for you.
I used to teach and train new soldiers and even practiced with the M1 as a secondary rifle.
(I first registered to this forum in 2013)
Thank you for your input. I was hoping someone with your type of experience would comment. That was my first thought also, that it was done in the class. I have a copy of the guidebook that is essentially the same but with a June 10, 1954 date. The description is: “Average rate of aimed fire per minute _____ 30 rounds.” I couldn’t imagine why the Marines would publish a book that specifies 30 if it is supposed to be 16 to 24. That is a big difference. And then I thought about LHO giving that book to the Cuban exiles in New Orleans. So he apparently had the guidebook with him and on his mind during the same time he reportedly was practicing with the rifle. And the rate of aimed fire for his MC rifle is more in line with his revision in the manual.
I thought that you might have something to say about his other notations. I can provide more information about what is in the manual if needed. Thanks again.
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Marina never said that LHO practiced aiming and dry firing his rifle on the porch in New Orleans.
But why would he put notes about a bolt-action Carcano in a guide book about an M1 semiautomatic rather than say in his own notebook?
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Marina never said that LHO practiced aiming and dry firing his rifle on the porch in New Orleans.
But why would he put notes about a bolt-action Carcano in a guide book about an M1 semiautomatic rather than say in his own notebook?
Marina never said that LHO practiced aiming and dry firing his rifle on the porch in New Orleans.
Did you miss the word reportedly?
But why would he put notes about a bolt-action Carcano in a guide book about an M1 semiautomatic rather than say in his own notebook?
My conjecture is that after his shot at Walker he was still scratching his head over why he missed. And got his old guide book out and turned to the chapter on the rifle to refresh his memory on how to sight it in and the other aspects of the proper care of it. He had a habit of writing down things like his research on Walker’s residence, etc. So it wouldn’t surprise me if those notes do reference his bolt action rifle. I’m not making any claims. Just my thoughts on the possibilities.
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Thank you for your input. I was hoping someone with your type of experience would comment. That was my first thought also, that it was done in the class. I have a copy of the guidebook that is essentially the same but with a June 10, 1954 date. The description is: “Average rate of aimed fire per minute _____ 30 rounds.” I couldn’t imagine why the Marines would publish a book that specifies 30 if it is supposed to be 16 to 24. That is a big difference. And then I thought about LHO giving that book to the Cuban exiles in New Orleans. So he apparently had the guidebook with him and on his mind during the same time he reportedly was practicing with the rifle. And the rate of aimed fire for his MC rifle is more in line with his revision in the manual.
I thought that you might have something to say about his other notations. I can provide more information about what is in the manual if needed. Thanks again.
Hello again Charles, I'm pleased you found my input useful.
Regarding the rest of his notes I think he was just writing down what the instructor told him in order to explain better what the text really says. "Translating" a military guidebook is quite normal. "Now, reach for your 4 inch pencil in your upper left pocket and write down what I tell You ..."
Unfortunately, on the forum it's difficult to explain military matters to members who did never take part in this world, for obvious legitimate reasons of course.
Whether Oswald was a sharpshooter or a marksman doesn't matter. What matters is how you perform in life fire and rapid fire training. I had soldiers who were poor marksmen but stayed cool in life fire training and thus performed better. I believe Oswald was not good at this according to a YouTube video with his instructor.
People also forget that he was not in a combat unit, he had basic training and was then and assigned to what was going to be his daily job.
All marines may have to work under pressure and all marines may be subject for a direct hit. While some would be radar operators and others mechanics, combat units train combat EVERY DAY. I received such training ...
Oswald was NOT in a combat unit, and I don't think he took any particular interest in how a rifle works.
From my experience only, that is how I see it ...
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Hello again Charles, I'm pleased you found my input useful.
Regarding the rest of his notes I think he was just writing down what the instructor told him in order to explain better what the text really says. "Translating" a military guidebook is quite normal. "Now, reach for your 4 inch pencil in your upper left pocket and write down what I tell You ..."
Unfortunately, on the forum it's difficult to explain military matters to members who did never take part in this world, for obvious legitimate reasons of course.
Whether Oswald was a sharpshooter or a marksman doesn't matter. What matters is how you perform in life fire and rapid fire training. I had soldiers who were poor marksmen but stayed cool in life fire training and thus performed better. I believe Oswald was not good at this according to a YouTube video with his instructor.
People also forget that he was not in a combat unit, he had basic training and was then and assigned to what was going to be his daily job.
All marines may have to work under pressure and all marines may be subject for a direct hit. While some would be radar operators and others mechanics, combat units train combat EVERY DAY. I received such training ...
Oswald was NOT in a combat unit, and I don't think he took any particular interest in how a rifle works.
From my experience only, that is how I see it ...
Were you in the Marines, or a different branch of the military? Oswald completed ten weeks of basic training then was transferred to an infantry training regiment for another six weeks. This was an advanced boot camp that concentrated on the basic skills of combat and amphibious techniques and methods all marines must know. After that he showed a special interest in pistol training according to his pistol instructor Sergeant Arnie Vitarbo in Japan. And according to Vitarbo, Oswald was better than average. Tippit found that out the hard way.
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Were you in the Marines, or a different branch of the military? Oswald completed ten weeks of basic training then was transferred to an infantry training regiment for another six weeks. This was an advanced boot camp that concentrated on the basic skills of combat and amphibious techniques and methods all marines must know. After that he showed a special interest in pistol training according to his pistol instructor Sergeant Arnie Vitarbo in Japan. And according to Vitarbo, Oswald was better than average. Tippit found that out the hard way.
As I say, discussing this with forum members who were not in the army is difficult.
As for example, training urban warfare you realise that using a rifle out of a window is a nightmare, a roof top is not ideal but is much better.
I received similar time in basic training in a European Nato country but was then assigned to a combat unit and this was my daily job.
Oswald, however, was assigned to a radar unit, plenty of things to learn and carry out on a daily basis.
I'm interested in the in the trigger of the CE 139 which apparently did not have a military configuration to prevent a startling effect, but I just don't know because I have not seen it explained anywhere ...
But since this is not a matter of faith to me, I see what I see with the information I've got regardless the directions it takes ...
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As I say, discussing this with forum members who were not in the army is difficult.
As for example, training urban warfare you realise that using a rifle out of a window is a nightmare, a roof top is not ideal but is much better.
I received similar time in basic training in a European Nato country but was then assigned to a combat unit and this was my daily job.
Oswald, however, was assigned to a radar unit, plenty of things to learn and carry out on a daily basis.
I'm interested in the in the trigger of the CE 139 which apparently did not have a military configuration to prevent a startling effect, but I just don't know because I have not seen it explained anywhere ...
But since this is not a matter of faith to me, I see what I see with the information I've got regardless the directions it takes ...
Jag ser att du har ingenting annat än en attack på Oswalds chanser i detta inlägg. Berätta för oss hur det stöder din "objektiva" position.
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Jag ser att du har ingenting annat än en attack på Oswalds chanser i detta inlägg. Berätta för oss hur det stöder din "objektiva" position.
If this is a game remember that Sweden is not a member of Nato, so you'll have to try again ...
Nevertheless, if this can stop this conversation here, I,ll admit to understanding Swedish but that I'm actually from Denmark.
I'm just trying to avoid that Duncan will let this thread going down the drain after that several posters have actual taken the effort to post some interesting stuff here.
I understand that you may have some fun doing this but please take other posters here into consideration, OK? :)
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If this is a game remember that Sweden is not a member of Nato, so you'll have to try again ...
Nevertheless, if this can stop this conversation here, I,ll admit to understanding Swedish but that I'm actually from Denmark.
I'm just trying to avoid that Duncan will let this thread going down the drain after that several posters have actual taken the effort to post some interesting stuff here.
I understand that you may have some fun doing this but please take other posters here into consideration, OK? :)
You can bet I take other posters into consideration.
Fun doing what, exactly.. seeing you say that English was your 3rd language and then watch you get unfairly chastized, and in smarmy fashion I might add, about your grammar? Then guessing your native tongue to be either Swedish or Danish, with the educated guess that either one would be close enough to understand? Yeah that was fun.
English, Danish, Swedish... my query is legit in any language
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Duncan's contrarian impulse towards me has started coming out. He took down my critique of the word debunk a term sufficiently ugly to challenge pragmaticism for the seat of least tempting word to kidnap. Maybe you could explain to a dimmy what Oswald's lack of qualifications for a soldier of fortune mean to a bona fide?
Who are you directing your question to? Do we have a bona fide soldier of fortune here in this forum?
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Do you?
Do I what?
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Do you have anything to say about this? https://www.storychecksoutannex.com/how-trump-made-the-new-york-times-into-a-soldier-of-fortune-magazine
No
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Marina never said that LHO practiced aiming and dry firing his rifle on the porch in New Orleans.
Did you miss the word reportedly?
I'll bite. Who reported Marina saying that LHO practiced aiming and dry firing his rifle on the porch in New Orleans?
My conjecture is that after his shot at Walker he was still scratching his head over why he missed. And got his old guide book out and turned to the chapter on the rifle to refresh his memory on how to sight it in and the other aspects of the proper care of it.
Still makes no sense. The guidebook is about an M1. How's that supposed to help him sight in or care for a different kind of rifle?
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I'll bite. Who reported Marina saying that LHO practiced aiming and dry firing his rifle on the porch in New Orleans?
Here is where all that comes from.....
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first notice the rifle at New Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. As soon as I arrived in New Orleans. ???
Mr. RANKIN. Did you notice him take it away from your home there in New Orleans at any time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I know for sure that he didn't. But I know that we had a kind of a porch with a---screened-in porch, and I know that sometimes evenings after dark he would sit there with his rifle. I don't know what he did with it. I came there by chance once and saw him just sitting there with his rifle. I thought he is merely sitting there and resting.
Mr. RANKIN. From what you observed about his having the rifle on the back porch, in the dark, could you tell whether or not he was trying to practice with the telescopic lens?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I asked him why. But this time he was preparing to go to Cuba.
Mr. RANKIN. That was his explanation for practicing with the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said that he would, go to Cuba.~~~~
Mr. RANKIN. You have described your husband's practicing on the hack porch at New Orleans with the telescopic scope and the rifle, saying he did that very regularly there.
Did you ever see him working the bolt, that action that opens the rifle, where you can put a shell in and push it back- during those times?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in the room at that time.
But I did hear the noise from it from time to time not often.
All you have to do is tell the story right ::)
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Where's the part about him "dry-firing his rifle" supposed to be?
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Where's the part about him "dry-firing his rifle" supposed to be?
On the porch, Johnny R&R
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in the room at that time.
But I did hear the noise from it from time to time not often.
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Where's the part about him "dry-firing his rifle" supposed to be?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in the room at that time.
But I did hear the noise from it from time to time not often.
It appears to me that the noise she heard was most likely from LHO operating the bolt.
I am pretty sure that you will disagree. If so, what other rifle noise would she be able to hear from inside?
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I'll bite. Who reported Marina saying that LHO practiced aiming and dry firing his rifle on the porch in New Orleans
>>> Priscilla Johnson McMillan
Still makes no sense. The guidebook is about an M1. How's that supposed to help him sight in or care for a different kind of rifle?
>>> Practice with any kind of rifle goes into one's knowledge-base.
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Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in the room at that time.
But I did hear the noise from it from time to time not often.
Does anyone not see that this is a very strange statement?
They were in a room together...It was pitch black so she could not see Oswald [or this alleged rifle]....But from time to time heard the noise ....Maybe it was the boogieman.
Posted by: Bill Chapman
« on: Today at 02:59:31 PM ...Practice with any kind rifle goes into one's knowledge-base.
Allegedly aiming at a screen in the dark of night is practice? How about dry firing a squirt gun does that count?
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Does anyone not see that this is a very strange statement?
They were in a room together...It was pitch black so she could not see Oswald [or this alleged rifle]....But from time to time heard the noise ....Maybe it was the boogieman.
Posted by: Bill Chapman
« on: Today at 02:59:31 PM ...Allegedly aiming at a screen in the dark of night is practice? How about dry firing a squirt gun does that count?
You're confused Jerry, they weren't "in a room together", Marina was in the room, Lee was outside on the porch.
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On the porch, Johnny R&R
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in the room at that time.
But I did hear the noise from it from time to time not often.
Read it again, Bill. She's not talking about dry-firing.
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I'll bite. Who reported Marina saying that LHO practiced aiming and dry firing his rifle on the porch in New Orleans
>>> Priscilla Johnson McMillan
Cite Priscilla Johnson McMillan reporting Marina saying that LHO practiced aiming and dry firing his rifle on the porch in New Orleans. How does Marina hear him aiming a rifle anyway? That's a good trick.
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Who reported Marina saying that LHO practiced aiming and dry firing his rifle on the porch in New Orleans ?
>>> Priscilla Johnson McMillan
Contradicts the sworn testimony saying that Marina didn't actually see him. Tell the story right.
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McMillan's ability to recall verbatim conversations years after the fact were legendary.
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Cite Priscilla Johnson McMillan reporting Marina saying that LHO practiced aiming and dry firing his rifle on the porch in New Orleans. How does Marina hear him aiming a rifle anyway? That's a good trick.
Marina didn't hear what she thought a rifle?
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Marina didn't hear what she thought a rifle?
Huh?
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McMillan's ability to recall verbatim conversations years after the fact were legendary.
Cite that
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Marina didn't hear what she thought a rifle?
You claimed that McMillan reported Marina saying that LHO practiced aiming and dry firing his rifle on the porch. Have you already forgotten what you said?
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Cite that
Have you read her book?
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Have you read her book?
Have you? And can you guarantee that you're not cherrypicking, mispresenting or outright lying (as per your job description)?
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Have you?
I certainly have. I don't bluff my way through arguments like you do.
And can you guarantee that you're not cherrypicking, mispresenting or outright lying (as per your job description)?
Says the guy who completely invents posts that I supposedly made before the forum crashed.
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I certainly have. I don't bluff my way through arguments like you do.
Says the guy who completely invents posts that I supposedly made before the forum crashed.
Why would I argue with the likes of you? Only mockery is suitable for you lot.
Watch out what you accuse me of; and don't blame me for your lousy memory
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Why would I argue with the likes of you? Only mockery is suitable for you lot.
Those who know the facts discuss them. Those who do not just engage in mockery and declare victory.
Watch out what you accuse me of; and don't blame me for your lousy memory
A claim of superior memory isn't going to wish those alleged forum posts into existence. Or the evidence that you keep inventing (like Marina supposedly seeing Oswald practicing aiming).
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Those who know the facts discuss them. Those who do not just engage in mockery and declare victory.
A claim of superior memory isn't going to wish those alleged forum posts into existence. Or the evidence that you keep inventing (like Marina supposedly seeing Oswald practicing aiming).
PM has access to her files as to who said what. I wasn't anywhere near that porch, sport. And are you distinguishing between 'aiming' and 'pointing' by any chance?
Those who rinse & repeat for decade after decade need to seek help
Mockery suits you lot better than anything
Where did I claim a number of posts?
Where did I claim superior memory?
Bug said he exaggerated
You responded
You also claimed you never called us lemmings
I caught you out on that one. Remember?
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Is this 'discussion' about Oswald being seen dry-firing his rifle on his porch in general? Or is it about being seen exclusively by Marina? If the former, Guss Russo in his book LIVE BY THE SWORD, page 193, does state that three neighbours reported seeing Oswald doing exactly that; https://books.google.com/books?id=7Q87Rrxyh9wC&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=oswald+dry+firing+rifle&source=bl&ots=jUqxiCgZho&sig=ACfU3U0r0xngwh55sXs9wbv7xvzu1JkS5A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiszKzO8IfjAhXiqFkKHViGBOEQ6AEwFHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=oswald%20dry%20firing%20rifle&f=false
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PM has access to her files as to who said what. I wasn't anywhere near that porch, sport. And are you distinguishing between 'aiming' and 'pointing' by any chance?
[sigh]
What part of "I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in the room at that time" do you not understand?
Those who rinse & repeat for decade after decade need to seek help
Are you the same Bill Chapman who has told the same "pearly gates" joke umpteen times?
Mockery suits you lot better than anything
The last refuge of a guy who doesn't know the evidence well enough to even defend his beliefs.
Where did I claim a number of posts?
Where did I claim superior memory?
Bug said he exaggerated
You responded
When did "Bug" say that? Be specific.
You also claimed you never called us lemmings
I caught you out on that one. Remember?
So much for your memory. Cite me ever making the claim that I never called you lemmings. Who is "us", anyway? What you actually said was:
"All you do is call people who disagree with you 'ignorant' and 'lemmings'".
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Is this 'discussion' about Oswald being seen dry-firing his rifle on his porch in general? Or is it about being seen exclusively by Marina? If the former, Guss Russo in his book LIVE BY THE SWORD, page 193, does state that three neighbours reported seeing Oswald doing exactly that; https://books.google.com/books?id=7Q87Rrxyh9wC&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=oswald+dry+firing+rifle&source=bl&ots=jUqxiCgZho&sig=ACfU3U0r0xngwh55sXs9wbv7xvzu1JkS5A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiszKzO8IfjAhXiqFkKHViGBOEQ6AEwFHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=oswald%20dry%20firing%20rifle&f=false
Thanks Denis. It would be nice to see what the footnote source for that was.
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Thanks Denis. It would be nice to see what the footnote source for that was.
Yes John, agreed. I spent over an hour trying to find a source, no luck as yet. A statement as strong as that certainly needs backup. I did try to make it clear that the claim was by Russo. I admit I've never seen that claim anywhere else. Did you read the whole page? If accurate it certainly gives a solid indication of Oswald's mental state at that time. Which, before you say it, doesn't prove Oswald was an assassin.
.................................................................................
Just found a similar claim in Reclaiming History. (below) I have the book (of course lol) but the source notes are on the CD that comes with the book. Unfortunately, I lent out the CD and never got it back. Hopefully, another member can help.
https://books.google.com/books?id=q1VJAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA743&lpg=PA743&dq=neighbors+saw+Oswald+dry+firing+rifle&source=bl&ots=6BS1T4SArg&sig=ACfU3U2V48SRZvUe7lAE5qC7RdpdJsetpw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiR7cyLi4jjAhUPyFkKHUZFCt4Q6AEwDnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=neighbors%20saw%20Oswald%20dry%20firing%20rifle&f=false
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Yes John, agreed. I spent over an hour trying to find a source, no luck as yet. A statement as strong as that certainly needs backup. I did try to make it clear that the claim was by Russo. I admit I've never seen that claim anywhere else. Did you read the whole page? If accurate it certainly gives a solid indication of Oswald's mental state at that time. Which, before you say it, doesn't prove Oswald was an assassin.
I may order the book just to find out! Will let you know.
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I may order the book just to find out! Will let you know.
Just found a similar claim in Reclaiming History. (below) I have the book (of course lol) but the source notes are on the CD that comes with the book. Unfortunately, I lent out the CD and never got it back. Hopefully, another member can help.
https://books.google.com/books?id=q1VJAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA743&lpg=PA743&dq=neighbors+saw+Oswald+dry+firing+rifle&source=bl&ots=6BS1T4SArg&sig=ACfU3U2V48SRZvUe7lAE5qC7RdpdJsetpw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiR7cyLi4jjAhUPyFkKHUZFCt4Q6AEwDnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=neighbors%20saw%20Oswald%20dry%20firing%20rifle&f=false
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Just found a similar claim in Reclaiming History. (below) I have the book (of course lol) but the source notes are on the CD that comes with the book. Unfortunately, I lent out the CD and never got it back. Hopefully, another member can help.
https://books.google.com/books?id=q1VJAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA743&lpg=PA743&dq=neighbors+saw+Oswald+dry+firing+rifle&source=bl&ots=6BS1T4SArg&sig=ACfU3U2V48SRZvUe7lAE5qC7RdpdJsetpw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiR7cyLi4jjAhUPyFkKHUZFCt4Q6AEwDnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=neighbors%20saw%20Oswald%20dry%20firing%20rifle&f=false
I will look it up when I get back home in a short while.
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I will look it up when I get back home in a short while.
Thanks Charles, good man. Thumb1:
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Just found a similar claim in Reclaiming History. (below) I have the book (of course lol) but the source notes are on the CD that comes with the book. Unfortunately, I lent out the CD and never got it back. Hopefully, another member can help.
https://books.google.com/books?id=q1VJAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA743&lpg=PA743&dq=neighbors+saw+Oswald+dry+firing+rifle&source=bl&ots=6BS1T4SArg&sig=ACfU3U2V48SRZvUe7lAE5qC7RdpdJsetpw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiR7cyLi4jjAhUPyFkKHUZFCt4Q6AEwDnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=neighbors%20saw%20Oswald%20dry%20firing%20rifle&f=false
1365. 1 H 21–22, WCT Marina N. Oswald; McMillan, Marina and Lee, pp.451–452; CE 1154, 22 H 190.
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1365. 1 H 21–22, WCT Marina N. Oswald; McMillan, Marina and Lee, pp.451–452; CE 1154, 22 H 190.
Excellent John, sorry you had to do the leg work for me. Thumb1: So, presumably Marina is the original source? That's going to be hard to prove!
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1H21-22 is Marina's testimony. Nothing about dry-firing.
McMillan's claim is unsourced.
I can't find anything in CE 1154 having to do with a rifle at all.
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1H21-22 is Marina's testimony. Nothing about dry-firing.
McMillan's claim is unsourced.
I can't find anything in CE 1154 having to do with a rifle at all.
Yeah but, as I understand it, most of the McMillan book is from interviews between herself and Marina. In which case Marina would be McMillan's source. That's what I meant when I said it's going to be hard to prove, only Marina can confirm or deny this and she's not exactly responsive to answering questions these days. Also, of course, Marina's 'word' is worth zilch to many, if not all CT's!
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Yeah but, as I understand it, most of the McMillan book is from interviews between herself and Marina. In which case Marina would be McMillan's source. That's what I meant when I said it's going to be hard to prove, only Marina can confirm or deny this and she's not exactly responsive to answering questions these days. Also, of course, Marina's 'word' is worth zilch to many, if not all CT's!
If Marina wanted to nail Oswald about his rifle use she could have said almost anything but all she says is that Oswald dry fired his rifle in the dark and once aimed out on the street, her story sounds plausible and doesn't really prove anything.
There was one sinister novelty in their lives. One evening at the end of August Marina returned from a twilight stroll with June and found Lee on their screened-in side porch, kneeling on one knee, aiming his rifle into the street and working the bolt—dry firing. It was the first time she had seen him playing with his carbine since they moved to New Orleans. She was horrified. “What are you doing?” she demanded. “Get the heck out of here,” he said. “Don’t talk to me. Get on about your own affairs.” From then on she often heard him dry firing the rifle on the porch in the dark. He had fixed a lamp out there so that he could read in the evening, but he left it off when he was drilling with the rifle so the neighbors could not see him. Marina chided and even ridiculed him about it, but he was deadly serious: “If Fidel Castro needs defenders,” he told her, “I’m going to join an army of volunteers. I’m going to be a revolutionary.
RHVB
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/77/ad/76/77ad76f6f769c316d4fe43927620b1b4.jpg)
JohnM
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If Marina wanted to nail Oswald about his rifle use she could have said almost anything but all she says is that Oswald dry fired his rifle in the dark and once aimed out on the street, her story sounds plausible and doesn't really prove anything.
There was one sinister novelty in their lives. One evening at the end of August Marina returned from a twilight stroll with June and found Lee on their screened-in side porch, kneeling on one knee, aiming his rifle into the street and working the bolt—dry firing. It was the first time she had seen him playing with his carbine since they moved to New Orleans. She was horrified. “What are you doing?” she demanded. “Get the heck out of here,” he said. “Don’t talk to me. Get on about your own affairs.” From then on she often heard him dry firing the rifle on the porch in the dark. He had fixed a lamp out there so that he could read in the evening, but he left it off when he was drilling with the rifle so the neighbors could not see him. Marina chided and even ridiculed him about it, but he was deadly serious: “If Fidel Castro needs defenders,” he told her, “I’m going to join an army of volunteers. I’m going to be a revolutionary.
RHVB
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/77/ad/76/77ad76f6f769c316d4fe43927620b1b4.jpg)
JohnM
John, you're preaching to the converted, mate. My point was, try convincing most CTs that Marina actually said that. Unless it's on tape or on public record, it ain't gonna happen...even then they're going to say she was lying!
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There was one sinister novelty in their lives. One evening at the end of August Marina returned from a twilight stroll with June and found Lee on their screened-in side porch, kneeling on one knee, aiming his rifle into the street and working the bolt—dry firing. It was the first time she had seen him playing with his carbine since they moved to New Orleans. She was horrified. “What are you doing?” she demanded. “Get the heck out of here,” he said. “Don’t talk to me. Get on about your own affairs.” From then on she often heard him dry firing the rifle on the porch in the dark. He had fixed a lamp out there so that he could read in the evening, but he left it off when he was drilling with the rifle so the neighbors could not see him. Marina chided and even ridiculed him about it, but he was deadly serious: “If Fidel Castro needs defenders,” he told her, “I’m going to join an army of volunteers. I’m going to be a revolutionary.
RHVB
Where Bugliosi got these direct quotes is anybody's guess. His fevered imagination? As shown, his footnoted sources aren't it.
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Where Bugliosi got these direct quotes is anybody's guess. His fevered imagination? As shown, his footnoted sources aren't it.
Bugliosi loses credibility by using brainwashing techniques.
Emocional blackmail: Only a fool could believe that Oswald didn't do it ...
Then dramatising as in your example or using his "authority" through his position makes him difficult to read.
Talking to us rather than talking down to us would have been much better ...
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Where Bugliosi got these direct quotes is anybody's guess.
Wasn't it Priscilla Johnson McMillan? (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)
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Where Bugliosi got these direct quotes is anybody's guess. His fevered imagination? As shown, his footnoted sources aren't it.
Wasn't Priscilla Johnson McMillan's book, "Marina and Lee" the source, Priscilla's still alive ring her up or even better call Marina.
(http://freshfiction.com/images/authors/33892.jpeg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51diDbzw%2BPL._SX373_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
JohnM
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John, you're preaching to the converted, mate. My point was, try convincing most CTs that Marina actually said that. Unless it's on tape or on public record, it ain't gonna happen...even then they're going to say she was lying!
John, you're preaching to the converted, mate.
Sorry, I wasn't directing the post at you but was just adding to your post, if you know what I mean.
My point was, try convincing most CTs that Marina actually said that. Unless it's on tape or on public record, it ain't gonna happen...even then they're going to say she was lying!
Totally agree, no eyewitness who incriminates Oswald is safe from the CT, they will dig and dig till they find anything even a small discrepancy and the eyewitness/eyewitnesses are forever Big Fat Liars!
JohnM
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Totally agree, no eyewitness who incriminates Oswald is safe from the CT, they will dig and dig till they find anything even a small discrepancy and the eyewitness/eyewitnesses are forever Big Fat Liars!
Et tu, Brute
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,100.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,100.0.html)
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Sorry, I wasn't directing the post at you but was just adding to your post, if you know what I mean.
Totally agree, no eyewitness who incriminates Oswald is safe from the CT, they will dig and dig till they find anything even a small discrepancy and the eyewitness/eyewitnesses are forever Big Fat Liars!
JohnM
Hey, at 6' 3", two thirty-five, I'm not all THAT fat, I'm just a largish teller of non-truths in the weakened-by-Onanism eyes of "the evil, evil, evil CIA did it!" CT-errrrrs.
-- MWT ;)
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Is this 'discussion' about Oswald being seen dry-firing his rifle on his porch in general? Or is it about being seen exclusively by Marina? If the former, Guss Russo in his book LIVE BY THE SWORD, page 193, does state that three neighbours reported seeing Oswald doing exactly that; https://books.google.com/books?id=7Q87Rrxyh9wC&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=oswald+dry+firing+rifle&source=bl&ots=jUqxiCgZho&sig=ACfU3U0r0xngwh55sXs9wbv7xvzu1JkS5A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiszKzO8IfjAhXiqFkKHViGBOEQ6AEwFHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=oswald%20dry%20firing%20rifle&f=false
Just to follow up on this Denis, I acquired a copy of Russo's book, and the footnote is:
8 L.J. Delsa (HSCA investigator who located the witnesses), interview by author, 10 May 1993
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From Priscilla Johnson McMillan's book (kindle version):
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2rpv9jd.jpg)
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Just to follow up on this Denis, I acquired a copy of Russo's book, and the footnote is:
8 L.J. Delsa (HSCA investigator who located the witnesses), interview by author, 10 May 1993
Thanks, John. Thumb1: