JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Colin Crow on June 10, 2019, 12:13:05 PM
-
I believe the best clue to answering the above question lies in the testimony of Det. Marvin Johnson. There a number of pieces of information in this exchange that allows us to determine that the paper cover was discovered on the 6th floor after Carl Day left the TSBD.
Mr. BELIN. Your testimony then is that all the sack would have been east of the pipes. Is that correct?
Mr. JOHNSON. I would say that the sack was folded up here and it was east of the pipes in the corner. To the best of my memory, that is where my partner picked it up. I was standing there when he picked it up.
Mr. BELIN. You were standing there when he picked it up?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, because the Crime Lab was already finished where I was, and I had already walked off to where he was.
Happy to debate.
-
I believe the best clue to answering the above question lies in the testimony of Det. Marvin Johnson. There a number of pieces of information in this exchange that allows us to determine that the paper cover was discovered on the 6th floor after Carl Day left the TSBD.
Mr. BELIN. Your testimony then is that all the sack would have been east of the pipes. Is that correct?
Mr. JOHNSON. I would say that the sack was folded up here and it was east of the pipes in the corner. To the best of my memory, that is where my partner picked it up. I was standing there when he picked it up.
Mr. BELIN. You were standing there when he picked it up?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, because the Crime Lab was already finished where I was, and I had already walked off to where he was.
Happy to debate.
The bag just like the rifle and the empty cases were all planted in that SE corner, to make it appear that the shots were fired there, at what time makes no odds, the bottom
line is they were not left there by Oswald.
-
I believe the best clue to answering the above question lies in the testimony of Det. Marvin Johnson. There a number of pieces of information in this exchange that allows us to determine that the paper cover was discovered on the 6th floor after Carl Day left the TSBD.
Mr. BELIN. Your testimony then is that all the sack would have been east of the pipes. Is that correct?
Mr. JOHNSON. I would say that the sack was folded up here and it was east of the pipes in the corner. To the best of my memory, that is where my partner picked it up. I was standing there when he picked it up.
Mr. BELIN. You were standing there when he picked it up?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, because the Crime Lab was already finished where I was, and I had already walked off to where he was.
Happy to debate.
"Mr. JOHNSON. I know that the first I saw of it, L. D. Montgomery, my partner, picked it up off the floor, and it was folded up, and he unfolded it.
Mr. BELIN. When it was folded up, was it folded once or refolded?
Mr. JOHNSON. It was folded and then refolded. It was a fairly small package."
Why was full size bag "added to the photo" if it was only a small package?
-
I believe the best clue to answering the above question lies in the testimony of Det. Marvin Johnson. There a number of pieces of information in this exchange that allows us to determine that the paper cover was discovered on the 6th floor after Carl Day left the TSBD.
Mr. BELIN. Your testimony then is that all the sack would have been east of the pipes. Is that correct?
Mr. JOHNSON. I would say that the sack was folded up here and it was east of the pipes in the corner. To the best of my memory, that is where my partner picked it up. I was standing there when he picked it up.
Mr. BELIN. You were standing there when he picked it up?
Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, because the Crime Lab was already finished where I was, and I had already walked off to where he was.
Happy to debate.
What did his partner say about this?
-
What did his partner say about this?
His partner was Mongomery.
He said this.
“Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes---let's see Lieutenant Day and Detective Studebaker came up and took pictures and everything, and then we took a Dr. Pepper bottle and that sack that we found that looked like the rifle was wrapped up in.”
Took pictures? Where are the pictures taken before the bag was picked up?
'that sack that looked like a rifle was wrapped up in”? The fairly small double folded sack?
"Then we took a Dr Pepper bottle and that sack.."?
NOTE after they had taken pictures.
“Mr. MONTGOMERY. Wait just a minute no; I didn't pick it up. I believe Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check it for prints.”
Studebaker picked it up?
They couldn't even get their stories right working from a script.
-
What did his partner say about this?
What he said can be found here.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/montgom1.htm (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/montgom1.htm)
Happy to discuss.
-
His partner was Mongomery.
He said this.
“Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes---let's see Lieutenant Day and Detective Studebaker came up and took pictures and everything, and then we took a Dr. Pepper bottle and that sack that we found that looked like the rifle was wrapped up in.”
Took pictures? Where are the pictures taken before the bag was picked up?
'that sack that looked like a rifle was wrapped up in”? The fairly small double folded sack?
"Then we took a Dr Pepper bottle and that sack.."?
NOTE after they had taken pictures.
“Mr. MONTGOMERY. Wait just a minute no; I didn't pick it up. I believe Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check it for prints.”
Studebaker picked it up?
They couldn't even get their stories right working from a script.
Ray, the pictures he is referring to are the images of the cartridges. Nothing more of the SN were taken at that time. Shortly after the rifle was found and Day and Studebaker moved to that position.
As for who picked it up, that’s another question but remember these guys in particular were tasked with preserving the SN crime scene. Apparently no one touched anything, and everything got touched.
-
Ray, the pictures he is referring to are the images of the cartridges. Nothing more of the SN were taken at that time. Shortly after the rifle was found and Day and Studebaker moved to that position.
As for who picked it up, that’s another question but remember these guys in particular were tasked with preserving the SN crime scene. Apparently no one touched anything, and everything got touched.
I know that is what they want us to believe but "he said came up and took pictures and all that" before then "we then we took the Dr Pepper bottle and that sack we found".
-
I know that is what they want us to believe but "he said came up and took pictures and all that" before they picked the bag up.
"And all that" includes dusting of the shells as well as the photos of the shells.
-
"And all that" includes dusting of the shells as well as the photos of the shells.
Agreed but they took pictures before they did that, according to Johnson. I wonder what happened to these "pictures".
-
Agreed but they took pictures before they did that, according to Johnson. I wonder what happened to these "pictures".
Upon arrival, Studebaker took these two shots....Studebaker Exhibit A and B
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/studea.jpg)
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/studeb.jpg)
After these were taken Day dusted the shells with the assistance of Sims, who had left the SN to continue the search. After the rifle was discovered Fritz sent Sims to gather Day and Studebaker to that location. When Fritz left the SN with Sims and Boyd he assigned Montgomery and Johnson to guard the area.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, first I reported to Captain Fritz, my partner and I and he assigned us to this position over there where the boxes were.
Mr. BALL. Where was that?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It would be what--the southeast corner of the building--over there from where the shooting took place.
Mr. BALL. Well, was that before the cartridges had been found or afterwards?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; they had been found when we got there.
Mr. BALL. When you got there they had been found already?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What about the rifle, had it been found?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, Sir; it hadn't.
Mr. BALL. The rifle was found after you got there?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes.
Mr. JOHNSON. When we first arrived, we asked--we walked into the building and there was a uniform officer on duty there at the door, and we asked him if Captain Fritz was there, and he said yes.
And we asked him where, and he said he went on up to the sixth floor.
So at that time we were interested really in contacting Captain Fritz for any particular assignment he might want to give us, so we went on up to the sixth floor, and he was there, and that is when he assigned L. D. Montgomery, my partner and myself to the scene where the shooting occurred.
Mr. BELIN. When he assigned it to you, did he say anything that this was the scene where the shooting occurred, or did he just assign an area at that time which you later found out to be the scene from which the shooting occurred?
Mr. JOHNSON. We had already been there a few minutes when he told us to stay there and preserve the scene. Actually at the time he told us that, we knew that that was where the shooting had occurred, because that is, the hulls were on the floor. We knew all that already.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, when you got there, or when you talked to Captain Fritz, the hulls, the three hulls had already been found in a particular portion of the sixth floor, is that correct?
Mr. BALL. We will Identify your Exhibit A as your No. 20 and your Exhibit B as your No. 19. Now, what other pictures did you take?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Of the rifle?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's why, right after these were taken, they said they had found a rifle and to bring the cameras over to the northwest corner of the building where the rifle was found and I loaded everything up and carried it over there.
-
What he said can be found here.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/montgom1.htm (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/montgom1.htm)
Happy to discuss.
When it was discovered would be when someone first noticed it. It could have been laying there for a while before someone picked it up. Studebaker had less than two months experience in his position in the crime lab. He and Day only brought one camera to the TSBD. The processing of the SE corner area was interrupted by the discovery of the rifle in the opposite corner of the building. Later, Day sent Studebaker back to the SE corner and told him to continue processing the items while Day finished with the rifle and then took it to the lab and locked it up for further processing later.
It seems to me that Studebaker’s lack of experience and training in his new position could have been a factor in why the bag was not photographed before someone picked it up. Should we believe Johnson’s claim or should we believe Montgomery’s version? I believe that Studebaker was supposed to be in charge of processing the items in that area at that time. No one should have touched anything without his permission.
-
When it was discovered would be when someone first noticed it. It could have been laying there for a while before someone picked it up. Studebaker had less than two months experience in his position in the crime lab. He and Day only brought one camera to the TSBD. The processing of the SE corner area was interrupted by the discovery of the rifle in the opposite corner of the building. Later, Day sent Studebaker back to the SE corner and told him to continue processing the items while Day finished with the rifle and then took it to the lab and locked it up for further processing later.
It seems to me that Studebaker’s lack of experience and training in his new position could have been a factor in why the bag was not photographed before someone picked it up. Should we believe Johnson’s claim or should we believe Montgomery’s version? I believe that Studebaker was supposed to be in charge of processing the items in that area at that time. No one should have touched anything without his permission.
Can you produce anything from those officers who first saw the SN, prior to the discovery of the rifle, that mentions the gun wrapper in that location?
Montgomery gives us this.....
Mr. BALL. That's Exhibit J.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Right over here is where we found that long piece of paper that looked like a sack, that the rifle had been in.
Mr. BALL. Does that have a number--that area--where you found that long piece of paper?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. It's No. 2 right here.
Mr. BALL. You found the sack in the area marked 2 on Exhibit J to the Studebaker deposition. Did you pick the sack up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Which sack are we talking about now?
Mr. BALL. The paper sack?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. The small one or the larger one?
Mr. BALL. The larger one you mentioned that was in position 2.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You picked it up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Wait just a minute no; I didn't pick it up. I believe Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check it for prints.
Nothing about the time from that senario that I can see. Agree about inexperience of Studebaker. However I would contend he had already photographed the shells, the rifle, the lunch sack and pop bottle as evidence. Do you think he forgot this process or did not consider the wrapper as evidence at that time?
-
Can you produce anything from those officers who first saw the SN, prior to the discovery of the rifle, that mentions the gun wrapper in that location?
I don’t recall seeing anything. I suppose it is feasible (but unlikely) that no one noticed it for a while. And the photo taken of the hulls from the direction of the SE corner, when Day and Studebaker first arrived on scene, would have been taken from a position basically right above the bag. Maybe this particular question just wasn’t asked of the detectives during their testimony?
-
I don’t recall seeing anything. I suppose it is feasible (but unlikely) that no one noticed it for a while. And the photo taken of the hulls from the direction of the SE corner, when Day and Studebaker first arrived on scene, would have been taken from a position basically right above the bag. Maybe this particular question just wasn’t asked of the detectives during their testimony?
You think?........Try Mooney, Fritz, Boyd, Hill, Craig for starters, there are more.
-
The bag was discovered before the rifle was discovered.
Taken from reporter Ken Biffle's notes page 6 and 7:
"It didn't take the policemen long to find the cartridges by the ambush window. We all stood around staring at the brown wrapping paper found nearby. It was a reasonable conclusion that it held the rifle.
An officer in the northwest corner of the room yelled: "Over here!"
I ran over, dodging down narrow alleys in the stacks of packing crates. I was secure in the knowledge that my theory was materializing. They'd found the body of the gunman, I guessed"
-
The bag was discovered before the rifle was discovered.
Taken from reporter Ken Biffle's notes page 6 and 7:
"It didn't take the policemen long to find the cartridges by the ambush window. We all stood around staring at the brown wrapping paper found nearby. It was a reasonable conclusion that it held the rifle.
An officer in the northwest corner of the room yelled: "Over here!"
I ran over, dodging down narrow alleys in the stacks of packing crates. I was secure in the knowledge that my theory was materializing. They'd found the body of the gunman, I guessed"
When was that written? He's likely confused. Who else confirmed him there? Where can I find his sworn testimony?
(https://i.ibb.co/4pVqdHx/669-A72-D0-C034-473-C-9301-B41-D2061-FAEB.jpg)
Tm JohnM
-
The bag was discovered before the rifle was discovered.
Taken from reporter Ken Biffle's notes page 6 and 7:
"It didn't take the policemen long to find the cartridges by the ambush window. We all stood around staring at the brown wrapping paper found nearby. It was a reasonable conclusion that it held the rifle.
An officer in the northwest corner of the room yelled: "Over here!"
I ran over, dodging down narrow alleys in the stacks of packing crates. I was secure in the knowledge that my theory was materializing. They'd found the body of the gunman, I guessed"
Weeatherford also noted the sack
Weatherford: 11/23 affidavit
"....I came down to the 6th floor and while searching this floor, Deputy Luke Mooney said, "here are some shells". I went over to where he was and saw 3 expended rifle shells, and a sack on the floor and a partially eaten piece of chicken on top of one of the cartons which was used as a sort of barracade, advising Mooney to preserve the scene for the Crime Lab"
-
Weeatherford also noted the sack
Weatherford: 11/23 affidavit
"....I came down to the 6th floor and while searching this floor, Deputy Luke Mooney said, "here are some shells". I went over to where he was and saw 3 expended rifle shells, and a sack on the floor and a partially eaten piece of chicken on top of one of the cartons which was used as a sort of barracade, advising Mooney to preserve the scene for the Crime Lab"
That’s the lunch sack.....
-
That’s the lunch sack.....
No
-
No
Prove it......Mooney says it was a lunch sack. So did Gerry Hill. You got squat Jack.
-
And now from Montgomery.....the "discoverer".
Montgomery, No More Silence
"I don’t remember exactly where I found the brown paper that Oswald had wrapped the rifle in. It was probably close to 36 inches long with tape on it and no writing. I recall that it was stuffed between the boxes, not lying out open on the floor as were the shell casings. Since we were looking for the rifle, we figured that it must have been used to wrap the rifle. None of the items had been touched at that time. Marvin and I also found the sack where he’d eaten, and I believe that he drank a Dr. Pepper. We later took the bottle back to the Crime Lab to dust it for prints".
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/studef.jpg)
What a joke.
Oh what a tangled web we weave.
-
And now from Montgomery.....the "discoverer".
Montgomery, No More Silence
"I don’t remember exactly where I found the brown paper that Oswald had wrapped the rifle in. It was probably close to 36 inches long with tape on it and no writing. I recall that it was stuffed between the boxes, not lying out open on the floor as were the shell casings. Since we were looking for the rifle, we figured that it must have been used to wrap the rifle. None of the items had been touched at that time. Marvin and I also found the sack where he’d eaten, and I believe that he drank a Dr. Pepper. We later took the bottle back to the Crime Lab to dust it for prints".
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/studef.jpg)
What a joke.
Oh what a tangled web we weave.
Montgomery---"we were looking for the rifle, we figured that it must have been used to wrap the rifle."
Just what Biffle said. They were standing around talking about the bag and that it held the rifle and then the rifle was found.
-
And now from Montgomery.....the "discoverer".
Montgomery, No More Silence
"I don’t remember exactly where I found the brown paper that Oswald had wrapped the rifle in. It was probably close to 36 inches long with tape on it and no writing. I recall that it was stuffed between the boxes, not lying out open on the floor as were the shell casings. Since we were looking for the rifle, we figured that it must have been used to wrap the rifle. None of the items had been touched at that time. Marvin and I also found the sack where he’d eaten, and I believe that he drank a Dr. Pepper. We later took the bottle back to the Crime Lab to dust it for prints".
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/studef.jpg)
What a joke.
Oh what a tangled web we weave.
"It was probably close to 36 inches long"...... As the bag allegedly found was 48" long, it would be 12" long if it had been folded over twice,
Their stories are such a load of BS:
-
Was there a record about whose prints were found on the Dr. Pepper bottle found on the 6th floor ? If DPD examined the bottle and found prints , is there a record of the prints they found ?
-
Was there a record about whose prints were found on the Dr. Pepper bottle found on the 6th floor ? If DPD examined the bottle and found prints , is there a record of the prints they found ?
Mr. McCLOY. On the crime scene, that is, on the sixth floor, did you notice any chicken bones or chicken remnants of a chicken sandwich or lunch or the whereabouts, if you did see them?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle brought into the identification bureau. I think I still have that sack and bottle down there. The chicken bones, I finally threw them away that laid around there. In my talking to the men who were working on that floor, November 25, they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over there.
Mr. McCLOY. Someone other than Oswald?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; so I discarded it, or disconnected it with being with Oswald. Incidentally, Oswald's fingerprints were not on the bottle. I checked that.
Mr. McCLOY. They were not on the bottle?
Mr. DAY. No, sir.
So for three days the chicken lunch and Dr Pepper were thought to be crime scene "evidence", yet not sent to the FBI on the night of the assassination. All Day claims is that it was because Oswald's prints were not found on them. A lone gunman from day one it seems.
-
Colin , So we don't know whose fingerprints were on the Dr. Pepper bottle , only that they were not Oswalds prints . When the so-called snipers weapon was checked for prints , there were none found and then later on , prints were found that were said to be Oswald's . Nathan Darby had a 34 point match from a latent print found on one of the cardboard boxes that comprised the TSBD " Snipers Nest " and the inked print of Malcolm Wallace . Darby's match was a blind match . Another Texas based fingerprint expert E. H. Hoffmeister , when presented with the two prints that had been given to Darby , concluded that they had been made by the same person . When he was told that the Kennedy Assassination was involved , he backed off the identification .
-
From another thread.....
"For instance, it doesn't matter how many cops saw and testified under oath that there was a long bag in the sniper's nest, because there isn't a photo it seems that the long bag was never there, Colin logic!"
JohnM
Anyone wish to offer which cops testified under oath to the presence of a long bag in the corner as designated by Studebaker's exhibit?
When we establish who they were and when they arrived we might be able to apply some logic and see where it leads.
-
Anyone wish to offer which cops testified under oath to the presence of a long bag in the corner as designated by Studebaker's exhibit?
Was Studebaker who obviously had an eye for detail which no doubt led to him being entrusted with taking intricate measurements and photographs, lying when he drew where he saw the bag and if so why, what did he have to gain?
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMJDYNWX/outline-bag.jpg)
Mr. BALL. Now, did you at any time see any paper sack around there?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Storage room there - in, the southeast corner of the building folded.
Mr. BALL. In the southeast corner of the building?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was a paper - I don't know what it was.
Mr. BALL. And it was folded, you say?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where was it with respect to the three boxes of which the top two were Rolling Readers?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Directly east.
Mr. BALL. There is a corner there, isn't it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; in the southeast corner.
Mr. BALL. It was in the southeast corner?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew that box in for somebody over at the FBI that said you wanted it. It is in one of those pictures - one of the shots after the duplicate shot.
Mr. BALL. Let's mark this picture "Exhibit F."
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit F," for identification.)
Mr. BALL. Do you know who took that picture?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the diagram?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you draw the diagram?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew a diagram in there for the FBI, somebody from the FBI called me down - I can't think of his name, and he wanted an approximate location of where the paper was found.
Mr. BALL. Does that show the approximate location?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where you have the dotted lines?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
....
Mr. BALL. Now, how big was this paper.that you saw - you saw the wrapper - tell me about how big that paper bag was - how long was it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was about, I would say, 3 1/2 to 4 feet long.
Mr. BALL. The paper bag?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And how wide was it? Approximately 8 inches.
JohnM
-
Was Studebaker who obviously had an eye for detail which no doubt led to him being entrusted with taking intricate measurements and photographs, lying when he drew where he saw the bag and if so why, what did he have to gain?
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMJDYNWX/outline-bag.jpg)
Mr. BALL. Now, did you at any time see any paper sack around there?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Storage room there - in, the southeast corner of the building folded.
Mr. BALL. In the southeast corner of the building?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was a paper - I don't know what it was.
Mr. BALL. And it was folded, you say?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where was it with respect to the three boxes of which the top two were Rolling Readers?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Directly east.
Mr. BALL. There is a corner there, isn't it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; in the southeast corner.
Mr. BALL. It was in the southeast corner?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew that box in for somebody over at the FBI that said you wanted it. It is in one of those pictures - one of the shots after the duplicate shot.
Mr. BALL. Let's mark this picture "Exhibit F."
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit F," for identification.)
Mr. BALL. Do you know who took that picture?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the diagram?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you draw the diagram?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew a diagram in there for the FBI, somebody from the FBI called me down - I can't think of his name, and he wanted an approximate location of where the paper was found.
Mr. BALL. Does that show the approximate location?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where you have the dotted lines?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
....
Mr. BALL. Now, how big was this paper.that you saw - you saw the wrapper - tell me about how big that paper bag was - how long was it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was about, I would say, 3 1/2 to 4 feet long.
Mr. BALL. The paper bag?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And how wide was it? Approximately 8 inches.
JohnM
I gather you are offering Studebaker as one. And a bunch of questions. When in the sequence of events that day did he see it there? Before or after discovery of the rifle?
And the five other cops in you list are?
-
Was Studebaker who obviously had an eye for detail which no doubt led to him being entrusted with taking intricate measurements and photographs, lying when he drew where he saw the bag and if so why, what did he have to gain?
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMJDYNWX/outline-bag.jpg)
Mr. BALL. Now, did you at any time see any paper sack around there?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Storage room there - in, the southeast corner of the building folded.
Mr. BALL. In the southeast corner of the building?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was a paper - I don't know what it was.
Mr. BALL. And it was folded, you say?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where was it with respect to the three boxes of which the top two were Rolling Readers?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Directly east.
Mr. BALL. There is a corner there, isn't it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; in the southeast corner.
Mr. BALL. It was in the southeast corner?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew that box in for somebody over at the FBI that said you wanted it. It is in one of those pictures - one of the shots after the duplicate shot.
Mr. BALL. Let's mark this picture "Exhibit F."
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit F," for identification.)
Mr. BALL. Do you know who took that picture?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the diagram?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you draw the diagram?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew a diagram in there for the FBI, somebody from the FBI called me down - I can't think of his name, and he wanted an approximate location of where the paper was found.
Mr. BALL. Does that show the approximate location?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where you have the dotted lines?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
....
Mr. BALL. Now, how big was this paper.that you saw - you saw the wrapper - tell me about how big that paper bag was - how long was it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was about, I would say, 3 1/2 to 4 feet long.
Mr. BALL. The paper bag?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And how wide was it? Approximately 8 inches.
JohnM
Just when in the sequence of known events that day did Studebaker first see there? Before or after discovery of the rifle?
And the five other cops in the list are?
Time and space John.
-
Just when in the sequence of known events that day did Studebaker first see there? Before or after discovery of the rifle?
And the five other cops in the list are?
Time and space John.
While we wait for John (or anyone else) to offer up another 5 names, I propose that the wrapper was first observed in the "Studebaker position" some time after the discovery of the rifle.
-
While we wait for John (or anyone else) to offer up another 5 names, I propose that the wrapper was first observed in the "Studebaker position" some time after the discovery of the rifle.
And the 5 others were?
-
The bag just like the rifle and the empty cases were all planted in that SE corner, to make it appear that the shots were fired there, at what time makes no odds, the bottom
line is they were not left there by Oswald.
Evidence for this unjustified S P E C U L A T I O N please!!!
-
While we wait for John (or anyone else) to offer up another 5 names, I propose that the wrapper was first observed in the "Studebaker position" some time after the discovery of the rifle.
Something from the officer that most likely first picked up the wrapper on the 6th floor. Doesn’t seem to be in the “Studebaker position" after all does it?
(https://i.ibb.co/qsZN5sr/8598-E502-0-F09-46-FC-9-E7-D-ED9165-EF2397.jpg)
-
Something from the officer that most likely first picked up the wrapper on the 6th floor. Doesn’t seem to be in the “Studebaker position" after all does it?
(https://i.ibb.co/qsZN5sr/8598-E502-0-F09-46-FC-9-E7-D-ED9165-EF2397.jpg)
So the wrapper was not originally picked up by Montgomery in the "Studebaker position". It would explain why so many officers who observed the SN prior to the discovery of the rifle failed to mention it. It wasn't there! Likely it was placed in the corner at a later time.
Logical assumption?
-
So the wrapper was not originally picked up by Montgomery in the "Studebaker position". It would explain why so many officers who observed the SN prior to the discovery of the rifle failed to mention it. It wasn't there! Likely it was placed in the corner at a later time.
Logical assumption?
No disagreement?
-
So the wrapper was not originally picked up by Montgomery in the "Studebaker position". It would explain why so many officers who observed the SN prior to the discovery of the rifle failed to mention it. It wasn't there! Likely it was placed in the corner at a later time.
Logical assumption?
Yes.
Fritz arrived on the 6th floor within minutes of the alleged SN being found. He checked out the area that had been cordoned off prior to arriving. He stated to the WC that the gun bag was found after he left.
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fritzstandingonpaperbag.jpg)
-
Yes.
Fritz arrived on the 6th floor within minutes of the alleged SN being found. He checked out the area that had been cordoned off prior to arriving. He stated to the WC that the gun bag was found after he left.
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fritzstandingonpaperbag.jpg)
Of course it is the logical assumption Gary......seems the WC was keen for it to be there at the time of the shots......strange.
-
Fritz arrived on the 6th floor within minutes of the alleged SN being found. He checked out the area that had been cordoned off prior to arriving. He stated to the WC that the gun bag was found after he left.
Mr. DULLES. When was the paper bag covering that apparently he brought the rifle in, was that discovered in the sixth floor about the same time?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; that was recovered a little later. I wasn't down there when that was found.
Mr. DULLES. It was recovered on the sixth floor, was it not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I believe so. We can check here and see. I believe it was. But I wasn't there when that was recovered.
So where did Mr Fritz go?
-
So where did Mr Fritz go?
He went to the NW corner of the 6th floor when the rifle was found......stayed a while....continued searching for a bit......then ventured over to Bill Decker's Office some time before 2pm (from memory).
-
While we wait for John (or anyone else) to offer up another 5 names, I propose that the wrapper was first observed in the "Studebaker position" some time after the discovery of the rifle.
I propose that the accumulated evidence shows that Oswald did not place the wrapper in the "Studebaker position" in the SN.
-
I propose that the accumulated evidence shows that Oswald did not place the wrapper in the "Studebaker position" in the SN.
After four days with no comment am I safe to assume that no one wishes to defend this WC factoid?
-
Somehow, I went back to the "crime" scene and again saw something nobody did earlier.
Below is the crop of Commission exhibit 508.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zq8N76qd/wrap3.jpg)
And here is CE142 in front of the TSBD:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yd7ZwWJr/wrap2.jpg)
I have no doubt that this is the same wrap, same paper, same foldings, same everything!!!
Is there a record of when the CE508 was taken?
Duncan, I think you have a bombshell here, so if the forum gets hacked again, you will know why.
-
Somehow, I went back to the "crime" scene and again saw something nobody did earlier.
Below is the crop of Commission exhibit 508.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zq8N76qd/wrap3.jpg)
And here is CE142 in front of the TSBD:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yd7ZwWJr/wrap2.jpg)
I have no doubt that this is the same wrap, same paper, same foldings, same everything!!!
Is there a record of when the CE508 was taken?
Duncan, I think you have a bombshell here, so if the forum gets hacked again, you will know why.
Important find Patrick. Where did you source the high res picture? If that is the wrapper, and it certainly looks to be, the shot was taken by Studebaker between 2 and 3pm on the 22nd. Can anyone confirm?
-
Important find Patrick. Where did you source the high res picture? If that is the wrapper, and it certainly looks to be, the shot was taken by Studebaker between 2 and 3pm on the 22nd. Can anyone confirm?
I have no doubt that the sniper nest photo was taken before TSBD photo which makes all the testimonies problematic considering finding of CE142. Look, it was there on the boxes! Or, they found it next to the pipes and placed on the boxes to take a picture? There is one more detail on CE508 but have to investigate more.
-
I have no doubt that the sniper nest photo was taken before TSBD photo which makes all the testimonies problematic considering finding of CE142. Look, it was there on the boxes! Or, they found it next to the pipes and placed on the boxes to take a picture? There is one more detail on CE508 but have to investigate more.
Found the link....
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339412/m1/1/high_res_d/ (https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339412/m1/1/high_res_d/)
Only two photos of the SN were taken before the rifle find. Studebaker A and B. All others of the SN were taken after Day returned to City Hall with the rifle at 2pm. The reverse of CE508 has the inscription 11/22/63.
-
Interesting development indeed! Well spotted, sir.
-
Somehow, I went back to the "crime" scene and again saw something nobody did earlier.
Below is the crop of Commission exhibit 508.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zq8N76qd/wrap3.jpg)
And here is CE142 in front of the TSBD:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yd7ZwWJr/wrap2.jpg)
I have no doubt that this is the same wrap, same paper, same foldings, same everything!!!
Is there a record of when the CE508 was taken?
Duncan, I think you have a bombshell here, so if the forum gets hacked again, you will know why.
So, no one has noticed this before (in the almost 56-years of research)? Wow! Very nice find!
-
Somehow, I went back to the "crime" scene and again saw something nobody did earlier.
Below is the crop of Commission exhibit 508.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zq8N76qd/wrap3.jpg)
And here is CE142 in front of the TSBD:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yd7ZwWJr/wrap2.jpg)
I have no doubt that this is the same wrap, same paper, same foldings, same everything!!!
Is there a record of when the CE508 was taken?
Duncan, I think you have a bombshell here, so if the forum gets hacked again, you will know why.
Good work Patrick, you've found the Holy Grail.
(https://cdn.racenet.com.au/images/news/news_images/592w/holy-grail.jpg)
Oswald's rifle sack at the scene of the crime! Ouch!
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NNCnMF9/Oswaldsackinsnipnest.gif)
JohnM
-
Good work Patrick, you've found the Holy Grail.
(https://cdn.racenet.com.au/images/news/news_images/592w/holy-grail.jpg)
Oswald's rifle sack at the scene of the crime! Ouch!
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NNCnMF9/Oswaldsackinsnipnest.gif)
JohnM
Oswald's rifle sack at the scene of the crime! Ouch!
How do you know it was a rifle sack and how do you know it was Oswald's?
-
So, both the CE508 (photo of a recreated sniper nest) and photo of the wrap in front of the TSBD were taken by William Allen, Dallas Times Herald photographer, HOURS after 12:30PM. If you compare Sun shadows between DPD photos and William Allen photos you will see huge time difference.
I absolutely have no doubt that the object seen in CE508 is exactly the CE142 which makes the DPD investigation and all the testimonies more twisted and doubted which makes me only to conclude that CE142 has nothing to do with the rifle or Oswald.
DPD did not take the photo of the wrap but we see it on a photo hours later while they were "recreating" the scene. Well, they might recreated the wrap as well.
-
So, both the CE508 (photo of a recreated sniper nest) and photo of the wrap in front of the TSBD were taken by William Allen, Dallas Times Herald photographer, HOURS after 12:30PM. If you compare Sun shadows between DPD photos and William Allen photos you will see huge time difference.
I absolutely have no doubt that the object seen in CE508 is exactly the CE142 which makes the DPD investigation and all the testimonies more twisted and doubted which makes me only to conclude that CE142 has nothing to do with the rifle or Oswald.
DPD did not take the photo of the wrap but we see it on a photo hours later while they were "recreating" the scene. Well, they might recreated the wrap as well.
Isn't the light source and the subsequent shadows in CE508 from a Camera Flash?
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMpYWdbq/CE-508.jpg)
JohnM
-
Warren Commission Hearings Volume XVII
Current Section: CE 508 - Photograph of cartons at the southeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=246&tab=page
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/ce5081.jpg)
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/ce508.jpg)
-
Fritz arrived on the 6th floor within minutes of the alleged SN being found. He checked out the area that had been cordoned off prior to arriving. He stated to the WC that the gun bag was found after he left.
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fritzstandingonpaperbag.jpg)
Mr. DULLES. When was the paper bag covering that apparently he brought the rifle in, was that discovered in the sixth floor about the same time?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; that was recovered a little later. I wasn't down there when that was found.
Mr. DULLES. It was recovered on the sixth floor, was it not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I believe so. We can check here and see. I believe it was. But I wasn't there when that was recovered.
-
Fritz arrived on the 6th floor within minutes of the alleged SN being found. He checked out the area that had been cordoned off prior to arriving. He stated to the WC that the gun bag was found after he left.
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fritzstandingonpaperbag.jpg)
Mr. DULLES. When was the paper bag covering that apparently he brought the rifle in, was that discovered in the sixth floor about the same time?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; that was recovered a little later. I wasn't down there when that was found.
Mr. DULLES. It was recovered on the sixth floor, was it not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I believe so. We can check here and see. I believe it was. But I wasn't there when that was recovered.
They were being VERY careful not to step on the bag where it was outlined in their reconstruction photo to have supposedly being laying on the floor. :D
-
This is the inscription on the reverse side...does anyone know what the initials represent?
(https://i.ibb.co/fQfzDHL/6881-E6-F9-9244-4-D35-AABD-8-A5-F0-F6-E44-C1.jpg)
WCE 508 was shown to Luke Mooney during his WC testimony. If it is CE 142 the shot must be taken before 3pm as Montgomery took it to City Hall and entered it into evidence at 3.20 (from memory).
-
I think it just says "JFK"
-
Thanks John.
-
So, both the CE508 (photo of a recreated sniper nest) and photo of the wrap in front of the TSBD were taken by William Allen, Dallas Times Herald photographer, HOURS after 12:30PM. If you compare Sun shadows between DPD photos and William Allen photos you will see huge time difference.
I absolutely have no doubt that the object seen in CE508 is exactly the CE142 which makes the DPD investigation and all the testimonies more twisted and doubted which makes me only to conclude that CE142 has nothing to do with the rifle or Oswald.
DPD did not take the photo of the wrap but we see it on a photo hours later while they were "recreating" the scene. Well, they might recreated the wrap as well.
Patrick, I don't see this listed under Allen in Robin's gallery. The original pic is WCE 503. WCE 508 is the same but has a dark arrow added.
-
The bag was measured to be 38 inches.
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/bag.jpg)
If we knew the exact size of the box in front and by allowing for the angle of the bag then we could calculate the length of the bag.
By using some photogrammetry basics, the bag appears to be about 3 times the width of the box in front.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2Tx2LDJ/wrap3a.jpg)
JohnM
-
Studebaker's kit (?) circled in red.....
(https://i.ibb.co/bNnZtBm/studebaker.jpg)
-
The bag was photographed being brought out the front of the Depository at 2:19 p.m. (Trask, Pictures of the Pain, p. 338)
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bag.htm
-
Studebaker's kit (?) circled in red.....
(https://i.ibb.co/bNnZtBm/studebaker.jpg)
Here's a vintage Police fingerprint kit and I see some similarities to the object circled in your photo, so yeah it could be an evidence/fingerprint kit?
(https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/0213/13/vintage-fingerprint-kit-crime-scene_1_3291d5c9d9a92737bc995d6a31a4addb.jpg)
JohnM
-
The bag was photographed being brought out the front of the Depository at 2:19 p.m. (Trask, Pictures of the Pain, p. 338)
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bag.htm
I believe that 3.00 pm is accepted by most. Also entered into evidence at 3.20 (memory).
-
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10484#relPageId=94&tab=page
Commission Document 81.1 - AG Texas
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/sixth%20floor%201.png)
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/sixth%20floor.jpg)
-
Looks like the wrapper was in position close to the wooden window strip. The strip was likely part of the protected crime scene evidence being transported to City Hall by Montgomery about 3pm.
-
Trying to determine time frame of CE 508 and it seems it was taken much later than we think. Check the top box in the left corner. If we take this box as a reference together with the shadow lines (in RED), it is obvious that CE 142 was placed on the boxes later than the first pictures of the sniper nest were taken.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Z18TNkC/CE726.jpg)
If the CE 142 was present on the boxes from the beginning it should be visible on CE 726 which is top left photo. Bottom left photo is a recreation of the sniper nest probably take after 3PM but I still have to check on the shadows timing.
-
Trying to determine time frame of CE 508 and it seems it was taken much later than we think. Check the top box in the left corner. If we take this box as a reference together with the shadow lines (in RED), it is obvious that CE 142 was placed on the boxes later than the first pictures of the sniper nest were taken.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Z18TNkC/CE726.jpg)
If the CE 142 was present on the boxes from the beginning it should be visible on CE 726 which is top left photo. Bottom left photo is a recreation of the sniper nest probably take after 3PM but I still have to check on the shadows timing.
Patrick, CE 508 was CE 503 with an arrow added during Mooney's testimony. There were only two photos of the SN taken before the rifle was removed about 2pm by Day, Studebaker exhibits A and B, showing the positions of the shells. CE 142 was photographed being removed by Montgomery at 3pm.
Please note the following exchange between Belin and Day regarding the fingerprint equipment captured in CE 723. CE 503, 508 and 723 all look to be the same photo. I don’t believe Day was present when it was taken.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I am going to hand you what I will mark as "723" and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. 726----
Mr. BELIN. No; 723.
Mr. DAY. 723 is the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. Who took that picture, if you know?
Mr. DAY. Detective Studebaker.
Mr. BELIN. Was it taken under your direction and supervision, Mr. Day?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I was present. The two metal boxes you will note to the left, are our fingerprint equipment that inadvertently got into the picture with a wide-angle lens camera.
Mr. BELIN. When you say to the left----
Mr. DAY. To the right.
Mr. BELIN. You mean as you face the picture to the right.
Mr. DAY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to circle on Exhibit 723 your fingerprint equipment?
Mr. DAY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I will ask you to state if you know if this picture was taken before any of the boxes shown on 723 were moved.
Mr. DAY. To the best of my knowledge they had not been moved.
-
Patrick, CE 508 was CE 503 with an arrow added during Mooney's testimony. There were only two photos of the SN taken before the rifle was removed about 2pm by Day, Studebaker exhibits A and B, showing the positions of the shells. CE 142 was photographed being removed by Montgomery at 3pm.
Please note the following exchange between Belin and Day regarding the fingerprint equipment captured in CE 723. CE 503, 508 and 723 all look to be the same photo. I don’t believe Day was present when it was taken.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I am going to hand you what I will mark as "723" and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. 726----
Mr. BELIN. No; 723.
Mr. DAY. 723 is the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. Who took that picture, if you know?
Mr. DAY. Detective Studebaker.
Mr. BELIN. Was it taken under your direction and supervision, Mr. Day?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I was present. The two metal boxes you will note to the left, are our fingerprint equipment that inadvertently got into the picture with a wide-angle lens camera.
Mr. BELIN. When you say to the left----
Mr. DAY. To the right.
Mr. BELIN. You mean as you face the picture to the right.
Mr. DAY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to circle on Exhibit 723 your fingerprint equipment?
Mr. DAY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I will ask you to state if you know if this picture was taken before any of the boxes shown on 723 were moved.
Mr. DAY. To the best of my knowledge they had not been moved.
No doubt there was/is huge confusion on the photos and timeline.
CE503, CE508, CE723 are the same photo showing the fingerprint box and CE142. The trouble is that this photo is taken much later than CE726, CE715, CE716 and even later than CE733, CE734.
-
Here is another detail I have found on CE503/CE508/CE723. There seems to be a rifle next to the paper wrapper. There is an object similar to rifle front band and there is something looking as rifle barrel. The object looks to be too high so it is most probably placed on top of a box.
I was searching close to see if this can be part of a window frame but could not find these two dots on any picture showing frame.
I have included Carcano front band.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxTXRg6N/rifle.jpg)
-
Here is another detail I have found on CE503/CE508/CE723. There seems to be a rifle next to the paper wrapper. There is an object similar to rifle front band and there is something looking as rifle barrel. The object looks to be too high so it is most probably placed on top of a box.
I was searching close to see if this can be part of a window frame but could not find these two dots on any picture showing frame.
I have included Carcano front band.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxTXRg6N/rifle.jpg)
Interesting! The end of the barrel looks thick. Have you looked at the shotguns that some of the officers were carrying right after the shooting to see if they had a similar band?
-
Interesting! The end of the barrel looks thick. Have you looked at the shotguns that some of the officers were carrying right after the shooting to see if they had a similar band?
Yes, but could not find similar. It could be anything but first thing came to my mind was a rifle. Will search further, have to go through all photos again.
-
Here is another detail I have found on CE503/CE508/CE723. There seems to be a rifle next to the paper wrapper. There is an object similar to rifle front band and there is something looking as rifle barrel. The object looks to be too high so it is most probably placed on top of a box.
I was searching close to see if this can be part of a window frame but could not find these two dots on any picture showing frame.
I have included Carcano front band.
According to my 3D model, the mid-portion of the item that is similar to the front band is about:
- 42" above the floor;
- 28" above the window ledge
-
According to my 3D model, the mid-portion of the item that is similar to the front band is about:
- 42" above the floor;
- 28" above the window ledge
Thank you. I am quite sure that it is not part of the window frame. There must be at least one box under this object.