JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Colin Crow on June 07, 2019, 08:27:00 AM
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The following is part of the WC transcript that is available from......http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sims.htm (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sims.htm) and here...https://www.jfk-assassination.eu/warren/wch/vol7/page162.php (https://www.jfk-assassination.eu/warren/wch/vol7/page162.php). I don't have access to the original volumes at present so I do not know if it relates to the original transcript.
During his testimony Detective Sims relates this.....
Mr. Ball.
You said you finished there, did you see anything of significance there besides these hulls and the rifle?
Mr. Sims.
No, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Did you ever see a paper bag?
Mr. Sims.
Well, we saw some wrappings--a brown wrapping there.
Mr. Ball.
Where did you see it?
Mr. Sims.
It was there by the hulls.
Mr. Ball.
Was it right there near the hulls?
Mr. Sims.
As well as I remember--of course, I didn't pay too much attention at that time, but it was, I believe, by the east side of where the boxes were piled up---that would be a guess--I believe that's where it was.
Mr. Ball.
On the east side of where the boxes were would that be the east?
Mr. Sims.
Yes, sir; it was right near the stack of boxes there. I know there was some loose paper there.
Mr. Ball.
Was Johnson there?
Mr. Sims.
Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were found.
Mr. Ball.
To stay there?
Mr. Sims.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
That was Marvin Johnson and L. D. Montgomery who stayed by the hulls?
Mr. Sims.
Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the wrapper to the hulls.
I suggest that Sims actually said "rifle" instead of "wrapper" on those occasions indicated in bold. The change possibly due to a strong Texan accent. Would anyone disagree?
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The following is part of the WC transcript that is available from......http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sims.htm (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sims.htm) and here...https://www.jfk-assassination.eu/warren/wch/vol7/page162.php (https://www.jfk-assassination.eu/warren/wch/vol7/page162.php). I don't have access to the original volumes at present so I do not know if it relates to the original transcript.
During his testimony Detective Sims relates this.....
Mr. Ball.
You said you finished there, did you see anything of significance there besides these hulls and the rifle?
Mr. Sims.
No, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Did you ever see a paper bag?
Mr. Sims.
Well, we saw some wrappings--a brown wrapping there.
Mr. Ball.
Where did you see it?
Mr. Sims.
It was there by the hulls.
Mr. Ball.
Was it right there near the hulls?
Mr. Sims.
As well as I remember--of course, I didn't pay too much attention at that time, but it was, I believe, by the east side of where the boxes were piled up---that would be a guess--I believe that's where it was.
Mr. Ball.
On the east side of where the boxes were would that be the east?
Mr. Sims.
Yes, sir; it was right near the stack of boxes there. I know there was some loose paper there.
Mr. Ball.
Was Johnson there?
Mr. Sims.
Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were found.
Mr. Ball.
To stay there?
Mr. Sims.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
That was Marvin Johnson and L. D. Montgomery who stayed by the hulls?
Mr. Sims.
Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the wrapper to the hulls.
I suggest that Sims actually said "rifle" instead of "wrapper" on those occasions indicated in bold. The change possibly due to a strong Texan accent. Would anyone disagree?
That makes sense to me.
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74 views, only one comment that agrees....none that dispute. I might claim the assertion is confirmed. How's my logic John?
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74 views, only one comment that agrees....none that dispute. I might claim the assertion is confirmed. How's my logic John?
So, one comment agrees with your assertion therefore it's confirmed? Yep, that's Colin Logic!
JohnM
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So, one comment agrees with your assertion therefore it's confirmed? Yep, that's Colin Logic!
JohnM
Why do you feel the need to only comment on part of my post?
I asked if anyone disagreed. 74 views, none felt the need to. Do you wish to disagree? How long should I wait to make a conclusion? Why do you feel the need to attack the poster and not the content?
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Why do you feel the need to only comment on part of my post?
I asked if anyone disagreed. 74 views, none felt the need to. Do you wish to disagree? How long should I wait to make a conclusion? Why do you feel the need to attack the poster and not the content?
No, after 74 views, 73 didn't give a stuff!
JohnM
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No, after 74 views, 73 didn't give a stuff!
JohnM
Is that what your logic tells you? The usual form on the forum is when a non-WC supporter posts an opinion those in the other camp take an opposing view. So far this has not occurred. I saw a number of your group viewing the thread. Charles was able to express his honest opinion. Duly noted.
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The following is part of the WC transcript that is available from......http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sims.htm (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sims.htm) and here...https://www.jfk-assassination.eu/warren/wch/vol7/page162.php (https://www.jfk-assassination.eu/warren/wch/vol7/page162.php). I don't have access to the original volumes at present so I do not know if it relates to the original transcript.
During his testimony Detective Sims relates this.....
Mr. Ball.
You said you finished there, did you see anything of significance there besides these hulls and the rifle?
Mr. Sims.
No, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Did you ever see a paper bag?
Mr. Sims.
Well, we saw some wrappings--a brown wrapping there.
Mr. Ball.
Where did you see it?
Mr. Sims.
It was there by the hulls.
Mr. Ball.
Was it right there near the hulls?
Mr. Sims.
As well as I remember--of course, I didn't pay too much attention at that time, but it was, I believe, by the east side of where the boxes were piled up---that would be a guess--I believe that's where it was.
Mr. Ball.
On the east side of where the boxes were would that be the east?
Mr. Sims.
Yes, sir; it was right near the stack of boxes there. I know there was some loose paper there.
Mr. Ball.
Was Johnson there?
Mr. Sims.
Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were found.
Mr. Ball.
To stay there?
Mr. Sims.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
That was Marvin Johnson and L. D. Montgomery who stayed by the hulls?
Mr. Sims.
Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the wrapper to the hulls.
I suggest that Sims actually said "rifle" instead of "wrapper" on those occasions indicated in bold. The change possibly due to a strong Texan accent. Would anyone disagree?
I do. The line of questioning at that point was about finding paper, not a rifle. Besides, Johnson said the bag was found folded twice. That would give it an almost square profile, hardly a size that would suggest a rifle bag. They were discussing it and, opened up, someone said it looked large enough to carry a rifle.
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I do. The line of questioning at that point was about finding paper, not a rifle. Besides, Johnson said the bag was found folded twice. That would give it an almost square profile, hardly a size that would suggest a rifle bag. They were discussing it and, opened up, someone said it looked large enough to carry a rifle.
I understand your reasoning Bill. I think most over the years have assumed the transcript to be an accurate account of what Sims said. However I offer the following to support my conclusion.
1. Sims claimed that when the item was found that Fritz stationed Montgomery where the shells were. This occurred when the rifle was found as the crime lab guys (Studebaker and Day) had to finish up in the SN to move to the opposite corner of the sixth floor to photograph and dust the rifle. Montgomery (and Johnson) stayed in the SE corner to secure the crime scene.
2. Sims claims he was going back and forth between the item and shells. This comment has always confused me because the distance between the position the bag was claimed to be and the shells was only a few feet. However I believe Sims moved from the SN to the rifle with Fritz when it was discovered and then went back to the SN to assist Day in fingerprinting the shells so he could move to the rifle. After collecting the shells from Day they went to the rifle.
3. The phonetic similarity between "wrapper" and "rifle" with a strong Texan drawl. Not knowing the details of the layout of the TSBD, I conclude that the transcriber made this innocent mistake.
4. Sims response was in answer to the question about Johnson's presence, not the paper.
5. "Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were found." This response is somewhat nonsensical as the wrapper and shells were essentially found in the same place. Someone observing the shells would automatically be in a position to observe the bag.
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I understand your reasoning Bill. I think most over the years have assumed the transcript to be an accurate account of what Sims said. However I offer the following to support my conclusion.
1. Sims claimed that when the item was found that Fritz stationed Montgomery where the shells were. This occurred when the rifle was found as the crime lab guys (Studebaker and Day) had to finish up in the SN to move to the opposite corner of the sixth floor to photograph and dust the rifle. Montgomery (and Johnson) stayed in the SE corner to secure the crime scene.
2. Sims claims he was going back and forth between the item and shells. This comment has always confused me because the distance between the position the bag was claimed to be and the shells was only a few feet. However I believe Sims moved from the SN to the rifle with Fritz when it was discovered and then went back to the SN to assist Day in fingerprinting the shells so he could move to the rifle. After collecting the shells from Day they went to the rifle.
3. The phonetic similarity between "wrapper" and "rifle" with a strong Texan drawl. Not knowing the details of the layout of the TSBD, I conclude that the transcriber made this innocent mistake.
4. Sims response was in answer to the question about Johnson's presence, not the paper.
I agree that the transcriber could have erred; a good deal of these witness testimonies have shown words that didn't seem to fit a given sentence. But I maintain that the line of questioning in your excerpt was about whether or not Sims had seen a paper bag, some sort of paper. No one asked him if he saw a rifle in that corner, did they? Did Sims read his testimony? And is there any evidence that confirms a thick Texan drawl?
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I agree that the transcriber could have erred; a good deal of these witness testimonies have shown words that didn't seem to fit a given sentence.
Agree Bill, I too have seen the odd transcription error. Glad you raised Johnson, he provides the best clues for timing of the wrapper's discovery.
Are you a convertee? Have you been convinced?
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Colin I believe the last sentence "Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the wrapper to the hulls." seems to suggest that he meant rifle, as the wrapper was allegedly found in the vicinity of the hulls so why would he be going back and forth in the same area?
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Colin I believe the last sentence "Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the wrapper to the hulls." seems to suggest that he meant rifle, as the wrapper was allegedly found in the vicinity of the hulls so why would he be going back and forth in the same area?
Agree Ray, also the earlier reference that talks of Fritz stationing Montgomery I also believe is referring to rifle and not wrapper.
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I agree that the transcriber could have erred; a good deal of these witness testimonies have shown words that didn't seem to fit a given sentence. But I maintain that the line of questioning in your excerpt was about whether or not Sims had seen a paper bag, some sort of paper. No one asked him if he saw a rifle in that corner, did they? Did Sims read his testimony? And is there any evidence that confirms a thick Texan drawl?
Bill, no one said they found a rifle in the same corner. All Sims could remember was some loose paper. Johnson was stationed where the lunch sack was. Studebaker returned and processed the lunch sack and pop bottle. Then the both moved to the SN corner joining Montgomery.
I maintain that......
Sims response was in answer to the question about Johnson's presence, not the paper.
"Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were found." This response is somewhat nonsensical as the wrapper and shells were eventually "found" in the same place. Someone observing the shells would automatically be in a position to observe the bag.
As for Texan drawl.....all I can offer is this....
"Mr. SIMS. I was born and raised here in Dallas and I went to school--grade school in Dallas, but moved out to a little city called Hutchins, south of Dallas, and finished my education out there, and joined the Navy when I was 17, and was discharged when I was 21, and I came to work down here when I was 23."
Many witnesses waived the rights to read their testimony, as did Sims.
"Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read this deposition, or are you going to sign the other deposition?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; just go ahead.
Mr. BELIN. Ship it on in?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right, thank you, sir."
Any more research I can do for you?
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Bill, no one said they found a rifle in the same corner. All Sims could remember was some loose paper. Johnson was stationed where the lunch sack was. Studebaker returned and processed the lunch sack and pop bottle. Then the both moved to the SN corner joining Montgomery.
I maintain that......
Sims response was in answer to the question about Johnson's presence, not the paper.
"Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were found." This response is somewhat nonsensical as the wrapper and shells were eventually "found" in the same place. Someone observing the shells would automatically be in a position to observe the bag.
As for Texan drawl.....all I can offer is this....
"Mr. SIMS. I was born and raised here in Dallas and I went to school--grade school in Dallas, but moved out to a little city called Hutchins, south of Dallas, and finished my education out there, and joined the Navy when I was 17, and was discharged when I was 21, and I came to work down here when I was 23."
Many witnesses waived the rights to read their testimony, as did Sims.
"Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read this deposition, or are you going to sign the other deposition?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; just go ahead.
Mr. BELIN. Ship it on in?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right, thank you, sir."
Any more research I can do for you?
Well Bill? Strange to see so many LN supporters look at this thread and so few offer an opinion. Nearly 350 views, I wonder what JohnM might claim to be a reasonable sample size?
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The following is part of the WC transcript that is available from......http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sims.htm (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sims.htm) and here...https://www.jfk-assassination.eu/warren/wch/vol7/page162.php (https://www.jfk-assassination.eu/warren/wch/vol7/page162.php). I don't have access to the original volumes at present so I do not know if it relates to the original transcript.
During his testimony Detective Sims relates this.....
Mr. Ball.
You said you finished there, did you see anything of significance there besides these hulls and the rifle?
Mr. Sims.
No, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Did you ever see a paper bag?
Mr. Sims.
Well, we saw some wrappings--a brown wrapping there.
Mr. Ball.
Where did you see it?
Mr. Sims.
It was there by the hulls.
Mr. Ball.
Was it right there near the hulls?
Mr. Sims.
As well as I remember--of course, I didn't pay too much attention at that time, but it was, I believe, by the east side of where the boxes were piled up---that would be a guess--I believe that's where it was.
Mr. Ball.
On the east side of where the boxes were would that be the east?
Mr. Sims.
Yes, sir; it was right near the stack of boxes there. I know there was some loose paper there.
Mr. Ball.
Was Johnson there?
Mr. Sims.
Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were found.
Mr. Ball.
To stay there?
Mr. Sims.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
That was Marvin Johnson and L. D. Montgomery who stayed by the hulls?
Mr. Sims.
Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the wrapper to the hulls.
I suggest that Sims actually said "rifle" instead of "wrapper" on those occasions indicated in bold. The change possibly due to a strong Texan accent. Would anyone disagree?
The hulls and wrapper were so close together: Back and forth does not make sense. Going back and forth from the SE corner (location of hulls) of the TSBD to the NW corner (location of rifle) fits the description.
Regarding this Subject: Stick a fork in it... it's done.
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Well Bill? Strange to see so many LN supporters look at this thread and so few offer an opinion. Nearly 350 views, I wonder what JohnM might claim to be a reasonable sample size?
Why ask me
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Why ask me
Just wondering if you saw that Sims did not read his testimony, as you enquired.....etc.
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The hulls and wrapper were so close together: Back and forth does not make sense. Going back and forth from the SE corner (location of hulls) of the TSBD to the NW corner (location of rifle) fits the description.
Regarding this Subject: Stick a fork in it... it's done.
Thanks Ross. Perhaps we can now move on.
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Agree Bill, I too have seen the odd transcription error. Glad you raised Johnson, he provides the best clues for timing of the wrapper's discovery.
Are you a convertee? Have you been convinced?
So you need to convince somebody of something? Feeling powerless at all, Colin?
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Just wondering if you saw that Sims did not read his testimony, as you enquired.....etc.
I confirmed that later
Give us a time you figure the gun bag was discovered
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I confirmed that later
Give us a time you figure the gun bag was discovered
I’m not sure I can give an exact time but I will attempt to show where it’s discovery fits into a sequence of known events.