JFK Assassination Forum

Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: James Hackerott on June 05, 2019, 05:14:58 AM

Title: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: James Hackerott on June 05, 2019, 05:14:58 AM
OP correction begins at reply #3.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 05, 2019, 05:51:11 AM
Both were using 15 mm focal lenses on their 16 mm B&W film.
(https://i.imgur.com/CaZWdGS.jpg)

James,

A 15mm lens would be quite "fish eye," wouldn't it?

-- MWT   ;)

Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD
Post by: Royell Storing on June 05, 2019, 03:34:29 PM
Both were using 15 mm focal lenses on their 16 mm B&W film.
(https://i.imgur.com/CaZWdGS.jpg)

    It is images such as this that display the Great Distance between the Train Cars and the Pergola. The Dominant/Obscuring appearance of these train car Windows on the Bell Film contradict this distance.  What might the Bell Film have captured in the area between the Pergola and the train cars that these windows obscure?   
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD
Post by: James Hackerott on June 07, 2019, 10:30:17 PM
Both were using 15 mm focal lenses on their 16 mm B&W film.
(https://i.imgur.com/CaZWdGS.jpg)
I need to make a correction to the OP. That view of the western side of the TSBD was not taken by Jimmy Darnell, but by Don Cook. I found some or all of Darnell's film clip. It was much overexposed and required contrast enhancement. I present the frames along with simulated views from my 3D model for comparison. Also, my statement in the OP that both cameramen used the same focal length lens may not be correct- still working on that. Please disregard my graphics in the previous postings. Thank you.
(https://i.imgur.com/4fcMIpW.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/2EsFOfz.png)
James
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 13, 2019, 01:47:10 AM
Nice detective work James.  So, so far, Darnell is still the only newsman we know of that had some type of rolled up paper in his RH pocket.
And he is filming the westside before Cook does you think?  Since he's not focused on any particular part of it, I'll assume he's just heard something about the building in general, that it might be involved, perhaps the Euins/Harkness event or perhaps Jackson/Haygood.

And am I also right to assume that the footage of the cop, detective or whoever, climbing out one of those same windows(to gain access to a locked room, so the story goes) came about some good time later?
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: James Hackerott on June 14, 2019, 02:34:10 AM
Nice detective work James.  So, so far, Darnell is still the only newsman we know of that had some type of rolled up paper in his RH pocket.
And he is filming the westside before Cook does you think?  Since he's not focused on any particular part of it, I'll assume he's just heard something about the building in general, that it might be involved, perhaps the Euins/Harkness event or perhaps Jackson/Haygood.

And am I also right to assume that the footage of the cop, detective or whoever, climbing out one of those same windows(to gain access to a locked room, so the story goes) came about some good time later?
Barry, thanks for the interesting comments and questions.
Darnell finished his filming of the west side just before Cook began to lower his camera. This was recorded in the Robert Hughes film, at roughly 12:34-12:35 by my estimate.
(https://i.imgur.com/wPFtBOm.gif)

I think the Weatherford episode is some 10-20 minutes later.

Harkness ? on his DPD 3-wheeler just enters the parking area and Darnell takes off in his direction- as if to intercept him. So, I think Euins has not yet met up with Harkness.

I'm not up on a Jackson/Haygood event, would you fill me in on that?

So why did the west side attract both Darnell and Cook (and a few others in the Hughes film)?  We see that the 5th floor west side's south set of windows are now open (closed in McIntire). It may be that Norman, Williams and Jarmen are actually in those windows, but not picked up in the exposures – like the Prayer Person in Wiegman was hidden so well in the shadows. Just imo.

James
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 14, 2019, 06:03:36 AM
Barry, thanks for the interesting comments and questions.
Darnell finished his filming of the west side just before Cook began to lower his camera. This was recorded in the Robert Hughes film, at roughly 12:34-12:35 by my estimate.
(https://i.imgur.com/wPFtBOm.gif)

I think the Weatherford episode is some 10-20 minutes later.

Harkness ? on his DPD 3-wheeler just enters the parking area and Darnell takes off in his direction- as if to intercept him. So, I think Euins has not yet met up with Harkness.

I'm not up on a Jackson/Haygood event, would you fill me in on that?

So why did the west side attract both Darnell and Cook (and a few others in the Hughes film)?  We see that the 5th floor west side's south set of windows are now open (closed in McIntire). It may be that Norman, Williams and Jarmen are actually in those windows, but not picked up in the exposures – like the Prayer Person in Wiegman was hidden so well in the shadows. Just imo.

James

James,

How long is the full-length Robert Hughes film?

What do you mean by "at roughly 12:34-12:35 by my estimate"?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 14, 2019, 01:02:08 PM
James, ty,
I think Jackson was the man responsible for Haygood running back to his bike(or to the nearest radio) and calling in that first mention of the TSBD over the air.  I'd have to come back to it later but.

Do you see Underwood there in your Hughes gif James in the long raincoat, well there's another piece of Hughes further west in the carparks that I thought shows Jim, Darnell and perhaps Jackson huddled together, so perhaps Jimmy's source came directly from Bob.

Also Harkness yes :) but was there only one three-wheeler in the RRY proper??
And I think you're right, that's Jimmy working, reacting(to Harkness' siren?) whereas Underwood by comparison, well, there just is none.

Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Royell Storing on June 14, 2019, 10:29:08 PM
Barry, thanks for the interesting comments and questions.
Darnell finished his filming of the west side just before Cook began to lower his camera. This was recorded in the Robert Hughes film, at roughly 12:34-12:35 by my estimate.
(https://i.imgur.com/wPFtBOm.gif)

I think the Weatherford episode is some 10-20 minutes later.

Harkness ? on his DPD 3-wheeler just enters the parking area and Darnell takes off in his direction- as if to intercept him. So, I think Euins has not yet met up with Harkness.

I'm not up on a Jackson/Haygood event, would you fill me in on that?

So why did the west side attract both Darnell and Cook (and a few others in the Hughes film)?  We see that the 5th floor west side's south set of windows are now open (closed in McIntire). It may be that Norman, Williams and Jarmen are actually in those windows, but not picked up in the exposures – like the Prayer Person in Wiegman was hidden so well in the shadows. Just imo.

James

    I would disagree with the 12:34-12:35 time stamping of Darnell being behind the Pergola in that Hughes footage. Remember, Darnell while still on the South side of Elm St filmed the rear of the "Party Bus" and the Cop Car behind it as those 2 vehicles went under the Triple Underpass. These were the Last 2 vehicles in the JFK Motorcade. This means Darnell did Not even cross over to the North side of Elm St until the entire Motorcade had passed by him. This casts doubt that he would have reached that rear position behind the Pergola in only 4-5 minutes following the Kill Shot. Also, based on Darnell standing close to Cook in that Hughes snippet, and Cook having filmed the side of the TSBD and also filming almost straight down the Elm St Extension, would physically place Darnell on the extreme Eastern side/edge of the Pergola = somewhat close to the TSBD.  This would be a lot of ground for Darnell to cover in only 4-5 minutes when he did Not even cross Elm St until the Entire Motorcade had passed by him.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 16, 2019, 04:43:09 PM
...
Do you see Underwood there in your Hughes gif James in the long raincoat, well there's another piece of Hughes further west in the carparks that I thought shows Jim, Darnell and perhaps Jackson huddled together, so perhaps Jimmy's source came directly from Bob...

It's not Hughes or even Bronson(my apologies)so it must be from the DCA films, I'll get it.

Derugo, @5:30, Craig talking to Darnell, Underwood and Jackson, common sense tells me that Jimmy filmed the TSBD after this
From Gerda's channel (RIP)
Also for the note takers, rewind to 5:27 to see Danny Arce standing behind Darnell with no shoulder strap again.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 16, 2019, 05:41:37 PM
    I would disagree with the 12:34-12:35 time stamping of Darnell being behind the Pergola in that Hughes footage. Remember, Darnell while still on the South side of Elm St filmed the rear of the "Party Bus" and the Cop Car behind it as those 2 vehicles went under the Triple Underpass. These were the Last 2 vehicles in the JFK Motorcade. This means Darnell did Not even cross over to the North side of Elm St until the entire Motorcade had passed by him. This casts doubt that he would have reached that rear position behind the Pergola in only 4-5 minutes following the Kill Shot. Also, based on Darnell standing close to Cook in that Hughes snippet, and Cook having filmed the side of the TSBD and also filming almost straight down the Elm St Extension, would physically place Darnell on the extreme Eastern side/edge of the Pergola = somewhat close to the TSBD.  This would be a lot of ground for Darnell to cover in only 4-5 minutes when he did Not even cross Elm St until the Entire Motorcade had passed by him.

All IMHO Royell but Haygood is running up the "GK" as all three camera cars are still on Elm and yet to reach the UP, my estimate is about 1min after Z313 for that, the rush then starts immeadiatly after, with people changing directions and then like you say the buses pass have room to move and Darnell reacts to the police car siren.  It's all in the same neighborhood 70-90secs.  Ok, you know Craigs story, you know where he come from and where he went and about what general time, well what if Jimmy knew him, like Dave knew Lem and saw him running up the knoll because you know, that's Darnell's next stop and shoot point, right in Craigs face.  2mins or there about they're both in the RRY working it.  Bob Jackson too and Underwood a small time later(only no sign of real work).  Seeing all them people running is very hard to resist, if you were able enough you'd run too just to see what's up.  There's no real reason for what I just linked to with the huddle, being much more than the three minutes mark.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: James Hackerott on June 16, 2019, 06:29:52 PM
It's not Hughes or even Bronson(my apologies)so it must be from the DCA films, I'll get it.

Derugo, @5:30, Craig talking to Darnell, Underwood and Jackson, common sense tells me that Jimmy filmed the TSBD after this
From Gerda's channel (RIP)
Also for the note takers, rewind to 5:27 to see Danny Arce standing behind Darnell with no shoulder strap again.
That is from the John Martin film in the DCA films. I thought this scene might be what you were describing, but I'm still lost on who or where was Jackson? Would that be 1 or 2 in this graphic? Number 1 never gives a better view of his head, but I don't think there is MC helmet. The Martin film is very useful as there are no splices during the Rail/Parking area. I'm trying to build a quilt from the patchs of isolated clips. Baby step progress...
(https://i.imgur.com/RkjphCQ.png)
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 16, 2019, 07:42:38 PM
#1 yes, has to be Bob, dark raincoat and dark, slick hair.
#2 was caught by Cancellare near the corner under Haygood where the OP meets the fence, most would know his name, it never stuck with me, he went to the TSBD sometime after this and was another candidate for the "asking LHO for a phone" bit.
Haygood's call regarding the "this man's best guess it came from the Hertz building" comes at late 12:34pm, so he and Jackson may have already met before this gathering, if I'm correct, at all.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: James Hackerott on June 16, 2019, 07:55:14 PM
#1 yes, has to be Bob, dark raincoat and dark, slick hair.
#2 was caught by Cancellare near the corner under Haygood where the OP meets the fence, most would know his name, it never stuck with me, he went to the TSBD sometime after this and was another candidate for the "asking LHO for a phone" bit.
Haygood's call regarding the "this man's best guess it came from the Hertz building" comes at late 12:34pm, so he and Jackson may have already met before this gathering, if I'm correct, at all.
Ah, yes. I just read Trask's account of Couch and Jackson. I knew Couch jumped ship near the TUP, but did not recall Bob also jumping at the same time. Something for me to ponder.
Also, I was wondering if #2 might be the same individual in Cancellare's photo. Robert MacNeil.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 16, 2019, 08:02:35 PM
That's him, McNeil, with the voice, at least, looks a little like him, ty.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: James Hackerott on June 17, 2019, 01:30:22 AM
James,

How long is the full-length Robert Hughes film?

What do you mean by "at roughly 12:34-12:35 by my estimate"?

-- MWT  ;)
Thomas,
Sorry it took this long to respond. I needed to first present the PergolaWallClock technique before I could answer your question. The PergolaWalllClock indicates Rober Hughes has:
 
-completed his filming on Main street
-crossed the triangular infield
-entered the north pergola's west shelter (or possibly the pergola proper near the west shelter)
–filmed his first Rail/Parking yard scene with Toni Foster etc
–moved about 45 feet to the pergola patio steps near the Zapruder pedestal to film 8 seconds of the background buildings including an eastward sweep of Elm street by 12:33-12:34 .
Hughes then moved about 75 or slightly more feet to inside the east shelter to then film Jimmy Darnell, just as Darnell finished filming the west face of the TSBD.

All three Hughes scenes could have been easily completed in 1-2 minutes. Thus my estimate of 12:34-12:35 for the Darnell clip.

Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Robin Unger on June 18, 2019, 12:06:56 AM
McNeil seen in the light colored suit facing the camera

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/CancellareUnger.jpg)



Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 22, 2019, 11:16:50 AM
...
(https://i.imgur.com/RkjphCQ.png)

James,
Underwood, too short, plus hat?
Cook himself perhaps??
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: James Hackerott on June 23, 2019, 02:58:18 AM
James,
Underwood, too short, plus hat?
Cook himself perhaps??
Barry,
I believe that is indeed Mr. Underwood. This stabilized gif shows no hat while his glasses and raincoat are evident. The above annotated frame was grabbed while Underwood was leaning (or is it bending?) into the conversation with Craig while Darnell cranks his camera spring. Don Cook is present in some of the TSBD doorway scenes, some including Howard Brennan. Cook was not wearing an overcoat or raincoat, iirc.
(https://i.imgur.com/MMvALmQ.gif)
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Royell Storing on June 23, 2019, 04:33:39 PM
All IMHO Royell but Haygood is running up the "GK" as all three camera cars are still on Elm and yet to reach the UP, my estimate is about 1min after Z313 for that, the rush then starts immeadiatly after, with people changing directions and then like you say the buses pass have room to move and Darnell reacts to the police car siren.  It's all in the same neighborhood 70-90secs.  Ok, you know Craigs story, you know where he come from and where he went and about what general time, well what if Jimmy knew him, like Dave knew Lem and saw him running up the knoll because you know, that's Darnell's next stop and shoot point, right in Craigs face.  2mins or there about they're both in the RRY working it.  Bob Jackson too and Underwood a small time later(only no sign of real work).  Seeing all them people running is very hard to resist, if you were able enough you'd run too just to see what's up.  There's no real reason for what I just linked to with the huddle, being much more than the three minutes mark.

    One of the Major stumbling blocks to the accepted time line you have bought into is DPD Officer Hargis MISSING from any Assassination Image showing the North Knoll. Hargis testified that he ran up to that Little Wall on the knoll. That is nowhere to be found on Any assassination image. My belief is the Camera Cars were at a Stop at the corner of Houston/Elm Longer than we have been led to believe. This same extended time goes for Hargis crossing Elm St and running to that Little Wall. And this same time extension would also apply to the JFK Limo being on Elm St and then being filmed by Wiegman going under the Triple Underpass.  Yeah, this is All about the JFK Limo either having slow-rolled down Elm St for an extended period of time, or possibly coming to a Stop. This would be roughly 30 seconds max having gone MIA.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on July 01, 2019, 07:13:22 PM
Barry,
I believe that is indeed Mr. Underwood. This stabilized gif shows no hat while his glasses and raincoat are evident. The above annotated frame was grabbed while Underwood was leaning (or is it bending?) into the conversation with Craig while Darnell cranks his camera spring. Don Cook is present in some of the TSBD doorway scenes, some including Howard Brennan. Cook was not wearing an overcoat or raincoat, iirc.
(https://i.imgur.com/MMvALmQ.gif)

Much obliged James.  I should know better by now than to use a still frame, especially when the full clip I just posted the link to... anyway, well worth it for that stable clip, ty.
Naturally we'd think that's Haygood again in the background but I guess technically it could be Hargis if it's around three minutes into it.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on July 01, 2019, 07:31:02 PM
    One of the Major stumbling blocks to the accepted time line you have bought into is DPD Officer Hargis MISSING from any Assassination Image showing the North Knoll. Hargis testified that he ran up to that Little Wall on the knoll. That is nowhere to be found on Any assassination image. My belief is the Camera Cars were at a Stop at the corner of Houston/Elm Longer than we have been led to believe. This same extended time goes for Hargis crossing Elm St and running to that Little Wall. And this same time extension would also apply to the JFK Limo being on Elm St and then being filmed by Wiegman going under the Triple Underpass.  Yeah, this is All about the JFK Limo either having slow-rolled down Elm St for an extended period of time, or possibly coming to a Stop. This would be roughly 30 seconds max having gone MIA.

I've posted everything I found on this Hargis issue here Royell and if you don't share my belief that Hargis actually ran directly towards Wiegman then there's nothing else I can do.  Weigman seems to have reacted to Hargis by lying awkwardly down and across the steps(no other reason fore him to do that), Mumford actually got up again and ran out of his way(that's another real clincher), Charles Hester scurrying to the back of the pergola seems also to be a direct result of seeing a cop running up the grass with his pistol out, Altgens#7 is explained, that big area of nothing but grass is exactly where the cop was running to and finally Bobby's actual position at the lamp post almost an exact straight line between his bike and Dave.  I hate to use it but... preponderance of evidence does sum it up rather nicely.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Royell Storing on July 01, 2019, 11:20:05 PM
Much obliged James.  I should know better by now than to use a still frame, especially when the full clip I just posted the link to... anyway, well worth it for that stable clip, ty.
Naturally we'd think that's Haygood again in the background but I guess technically it could be Hargis if it's around three minutes into it.

     Hargis's WC Testimony would rule out his being BEHIND the Pergola around 3 minutes after the Kill Shot. Either: (1) that is Not Hargis, or (2) the "around 3 minutes" time stamping of that snippet is Incorrect
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on July 02, 2019, 09:07:06 PM
We know why he got back on his bike, you think he took the scenic route?
Bobby probably had it covered before Haygood even reached the corner and well before Darnell ever thought about heading that way.(https://i.imgur.com/2XmNKmC.jpgy)
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Royell Storing on July 03, 2019, 01:25:27 AM
We know why he got back on his bike, you think he took the scenic route?
Bobby probably had it covered before Haygood even reached the corner and well before Darnell ever thought about heading that way.(https://i.imgur.com/2XmNKmC.jpgy)

     Are You claiming that Hargis: (1) traveled through the Triple Underpass, (2) then left Elm St, and (3) rode across the grass/Blazing his own trail UP into the railroad area? If so, familiarize yourself with the WC Testimony of Hargis.  Hargis details where he went after getting back onto his DPD Motorcycle on Elm St. The visual aide you have supplied is in conflict with Hargis's WC Testimony.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on July 04, 2019, 06:01:08 PM
Quote
Mr. HARGIS. Then I got back on my motorcycle, which was still running, and rode underneath the first underpass to look on the opposite side in order to see if I could see anyone running away from the scene, and since I didn’t see anyone coming from that direction I rode under the second underpass, which is Stemmons Expressway ‘and went up around to see if I could see anyone coming from across Stemmons and back that way, and I couldn’t see anything that was of a suspicious nature, so, I came back to the Texas School Book Depository. At that time it seemed like the activity was cen- tered around the Texas School Book Depository, so, that is when I heard someone say, one of the sergeants or lieutenants, I don’t know, “Don’t let any- one out of the Texas School Book Depository,” and so, I went to a gap that had not been filled, which was at the southwest corner.

"At that time", IMHO is about ten to fifteen minutes after the hit.  So what was he doing in the meantime?  He wasn't asked. The way he described it above may read like he had a quick look then headed for Stemmons but if he was even half the cop most of us think he was then he would have done more than that, especially since "he was sure the shots came from close by".  There's even time enough for him to check Stemmons next, then come back to the RRY again and appear in that clip.  Anyway, it's probably Haygood in the Martin film I just thought I'd throw the alternative out there.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Royell Storing on July 05, 2019, 08:14:31 PM
"At that time", IMHO is about ten to fifteen minutes after the hit.  So what was he doing in the meantime?  He wasn't asked. The way he described it above may read like he had a quick look then headed for Stemmons but if he was even half the cop most of us think he was then he would have done more than that, especially since "he was sure the shots came from close by".  There's even time enough for him to check Stemmons next, then come back to the RRY again and appear in that clip.  Anyway, it's probably Haygood in the Martin film I just thought I'd throw the alternative out there.

     Based on the above, I am guessing that you have Now ditched that Steve McQueenish ride you claimed that motorcycle Officer Hargis mimicked in order to reach the railroad yard. This is progress. 
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on July 05, 2019, 08:52:43 PM
You see?  That's in your head Royell.  I said no such thing.  As for your reference, we know Haygood attempted something similar and fell on his behind, so yes, why the hell not?  Jackson actually got out CC1 after the TU, perhaps his influence to finally do so was in fact Hargis.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Royell Storing on July 05, 2019, 09:16:15 PM
We know why he got back on his bike, you think he took the scenic route?
Bobby probably had it covered before Haygood even reached the corner and well before Darnell ever thought about heading that way.(https://i.imgur.com/2XmNKmC.jpgy)

    As we see in Your visual aid above, You are claiming that Officer Hargis executed a Hard Right Immediately After going under the Triple Underpass and then rode UP that grassy embankment.  The Hargis WC testimony puts that Evel Knievel stuff to bed. As I said earlier, either that is Not Hargis in the background of the film snippet, or the current time stamp applied to that snippet, (roughly 4- 5 minutes after the Kill Shot), is Wrong.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Robin Unger on July 06, 2019, 02:05:34 AM
Darnell Frame ( Identification credit: Todd Vaughan )

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/9388~0.jpg)

Roger Craig ( Darnell Frame )

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/craig.jpg)
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on July 06, 2019, 12:46:49 PM
...The Hargis WC testimony puts that Evel Knievel stuff to bed.

It does no such thing.  He didn't go into detail and he wasn't asked to and if all he did was have a quick look, then head to Stemmons and look again, we need an explaination for what he was doing until the TSBD became the focus of attention.  I've offered you one, so where's yours?
Did Haygood try to jump the curb and land on his butt or not and how would you describe that stupid move?
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Royell Storing on July 07, 2019, 12:18:01 AM
We know why he got back on his bike, you think he took the scenic route?
Bobby probably had it covered before Haygood even reached the corner and well before Darnell ever thought about heading that way.(https://i.imgur.com/2XmNKmC.jpgy)

    Here it is Again. Your visual aid. It depicts Hargis going down Elm St, under/through the Triple Underpass, and then Immediately hanging a hard right and climbing the incline to eventually get UP and Into the railroad yard. THAT is the story You have depicted/laid out. Hargis's own WC Testimony refutes Your visual aid. STOP trying to now run away from your own visual aid.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on July 07, 2019, 06:42:29 PM
I don't get it, there's a quicker way?
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on July 07, 2019, 07:50:07 PM
    Here it is Again. Your visual aid. It depicts Hargis going down Elm St, under/through the Triple Underpass, and then Immediately hanging a hard right and climbing the incline to eventually get UP and Into the railroad yard. THAT is the story You have depicted/laid out. Hargis's own WC Testimony refutes Your visual aid. STOP trying to now run away from your own visual aid.

No offence but this is really quite mad.  I showed you Hargis' petential route to the RRY and it was then you who had him doing all kind of stunts to get up there.  It may have escaped your notice but the motorcycle officer I liked in the Martin film is on foot.  Do you now need a diagram of how someone can leave a bike at an obsticle and then continue the old fashioned way?  And I'll tell you again, his testimony in no way rules out him taking a harder look and to tell people it actually does is really something I just cannot fathom.  I mean this cannot be the same Royell who told us all to look at everything again some months back, why would that guy now be telling me to look at WC testimony where Hargis describes a period of 8-10mins in just two lines and suggest "that's all he did".  You really believe this cop on the hunt for a murderer just sat at the bottom of the incline west of the TU and waited for an assassin to run into his arms?  And then what, after 20seconds gave up and went to the next exit?  This is that same Royell?
I think we are almost done.  Sum it up 'cause you aren't giving me anything but bs.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on July 07, 2019, 08:04:07 PM
     Are You claiming that Hargis: (1) traveled through the Triple Underpass, (2) then left Elm St, and (3) rode across the grass/Blazing his own trail UP into the railroad area? If so, familiarize yourself with the WC Testimony of Hargis.  Hargis details where he went after getting back onto his DPD Motorcycle on Elm St. The visual aide you have supplied is in conflict with Hargis's WC Testimony.

This seems to be the source of your mental blockage.  Because he didn't say he went up the incline and into the RRY proper for a closer look, he didn't.  So he waited at the bottom of it, or perhaps somewhere further back where he could see everything, correct?
(https://i.imgur.com/Ew9Dz9G.jpg)
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Royell Storing on July 07, 2019, 08:15:17 PM
I don't get it, there's a quicker way?

      I find it hard to believe that Motorcycle Officer Hargis: (1) Left the roadway, (2) Jumped the curb, and (3) rode UP that extended grass embankment and forgot to mention All of this during his WC Testimony or at any point during the next roughly 50 years. 

     
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on July 07, 2019, 08:21:23 PM
...As I said earlier, either that is Not Hargis in the background of the film snippet, or the current time stamp applied to that snippet, (roughly 4- 5 minutes after the Kill Shot), is Wrong.
If the cop I liked in Martin is Haygood and not Hargis then I'm assuming it has to be around three minutes because for one thing Haygood needs to get to a radio to call in the TSBD report(perhaps he used Harkness' radio though, who knows?).
You seem to imply above that it might be Hargis if the time is incorrect, so then, how and why?
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on July 07, 2019, 08:30:01 PM
      I find it hard to believe that Motorcycle Officer Hargis: (1) Left the roadway, (2) Jumped the curb, and (3) rode UP that extended grass embankment and forgot to mention All of this during his WC Testimony or at any point during the next roughly 50 years.

That's more like it but get off the riding up the incline, that's not a necessity for him to be in the RRY for a minute or two on foot.  Besides, it's way too steep and he doesn't have to jump the curb like a hero either, he can just get up on it.
I'm telling you, what he did may have inspired Jackson because that's where he and Couch finally got out, west of the underpass and they had plenty of chances to do so before then but chose not to even try.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Royell Storing on July 07, 2019, 08:40:16 PM
If the cop I liked in Martin is Haygood and not Hargis then I'm assuming it has to be around three minutes because for one thing Haygood needs to get to a radio to call in the TSBD report(perhaps he used Harkness' radio though, who knows?).
You seem to imply above that it might be Hargis if the time is incorrect, so then, how and why?

    If you look again at the Hargis WC Testimony, he describes going riding underneath a "2ND Underpass" = "Stemmons Expressway". Hargis was in motion patrolling/eyeballing from the area West of the Triple Underpass. Per his testimony, he then went to the TSBD. If you look closely at the railroad yard film footage, It appears the motorcycle officer is stepping UP onto something. It could easily be his motorcycle. If it is a motorcycle, that would rule out Haygood based on the accepted time stamping of the footage.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on July 09, 2019, 03:19:03 PM
Hopefully you'll like this more.
(https://i.imgur.com/4bRT0aX.jpg)
Can't see how he could ignore all the activety in the RRY without checking it out for himself.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Royell Storing on July 09, 2019, 04:42:07 PM
Hopefully you'll like this more.
(https://i.imgur.com/4bRT0aX.jpg)
Can't see how he could ignore all the activety in the RRY without checking it out for himself.

    Once again, You have Hargis going Rough Rider across a grass area. If you put him on foot crossing this same ground, it would take him a longer period of time to reach the railroad yard area CLOSE to the Pergola. Either way, Officer Hargis made No Mention of Any of this Ever having happened. Your now proffering a 2nd alleged Hargis path to the railroad area displays your difficult position. Knowing the Testimony of Hargis beforehand would have helped you avoid your current predicament.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on July 11, 2019, 12:26:09 AM
Can we get this outta the way?  Do you believe Haygood attempted to ride up the incline on Elm, in order to reach the top of it, on the same type bike as Hargis but failed at the curb?
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Royell Storing on July 11, 2019, 04:19:41 PM
Can we get this outta the way?  Do you believe Haygood attempted to ride up the incline on Elm, in order to reach the top of it, on the same type bike as Hargis but failed at the curb?

     If you look at the film footage that shows Wiegman running from the curb and chasing after his camera car heading down Elm St. (I forget who shot that), it also captures Officer Haygood on his motorcycle headed toward the Elm St North curb. That footage speaks for itself in regard to the questions you have asked. Officer Haygood also gave WC Testimony. This is a rerun of our Officer Hargis route discussion. Doing your research beforehand, will save you from having to alter your position/opinion.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on July 11, 2019, 08:38:42 PM
Well I don't know...
Atkins shows him slowly approaching the curb and that's all, then there's this;

Mr. HAYGOOD. When I first got to the location there, I was still on Houston Street, and in the process of making a left turn onto Elm Street I could see all these people laying on the ground there on Elm. Some of them were pointing back up to the railroad yard, and a couple of people were headed back up that way, and I immediately tried to jump the north curb there in the 400 block, which was too high for me to get over.

Doesn't tell us he actually fell on his derriere in the process with the bike on top of him, or that it took him at least 20secs to recover from his great escape act.  So he left out some details and if you were consistant that would mean these details didn't actually happen.

Also, the part I underlined has no evidence to support it, so I don't actually believe it.
So at least you have admitted now there's enough flimsy evidence for you to accept a motorcycle officer tried to pull off a ridiculously risky manouver where he attempted to ride up a grassy incline much like Steve McQueen's stunt double would in The Great Escape, probably only months after the film's release.  Interesting.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on July 11, 2019, 08:57:36 PM
...This is a rerun of our Officer Hargis route discussion. Doing your research beforehand, will save you from having to alter your position/opinion.

I'm having a little difficulty dealing with your strict position on Hargis' WC testimony, so I thought a little insight into Haygood's evil stunt attempt on Elm may help me and what better example could I have chosen?
My opinion was that Hargis probably went into the RRY, how could he resist it?  If you've seen me change that then you are hallucinating friend.  I gave you an alternate route, with Hargis ultimately heading directly toward the RRY again...you remember?
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Royell Storing on July 12, 2019, 02:55:42 PM
Well I don't know...
Atkins shows him slowly approaching the curb and that's all, then there's this;

Mr. HAYGOOD. When I first got to the location there, I was still on Houston Street, and in the process of making a left turn onto Elm Street I could see all these people laying on the ground there on Elm. Some of them were pointing back up to the railroad yard, and a couple of people were headed back up that way, and I immediately tried to jump the north curb there in the 400 block, which was too high for me to get over.

Doesn't tell us he actually fell on his derriere in the process with the bike on top of him, or that it took him at least 20secs to recover from his great escape act.  So he left out some details and if you were consistant that would mean these details didn't actually happen.

Also, the part I underlined has no evidence to support it, so I don't actually believe it.
So at least you have admitted now there's enough flimsy evidence for you to accept a motorcycle officer tried to pull off a ridiculously risky manouver where he attempted to ride up a grassy incline much like Steve McQueen's stunt double would in The Great Escape, probably only months after the film's release.  Interesting.

   Please: (1) closely scrutinize Officer Haygood on Atkins, and/or (2) get a Higher Definition copy of Atkins. Look CLOSELY at the Rear of the front tire on Officer Haygood's motorcycle. You can discern Haygood's leg/foot being Lowered close to ground level as he maneuvers his motorcycle Closer to the Elm St. curb.  Based on what we are seeing in that footage, Haygood is preparing to Stop alongside that curb and Rack his motorcycle. Also, who would ever attempt to "Jump" a curb while riding parallel to it?  The easiest, Best way to Jump a curb or any other object is to head directly at it or as directly at it as possible with Speed behind the intended Jump attempt. Bearing in mind the Heavy weight of Haygood's DPD Police Motorcycle, along with seeing him lowering his leg toward the ground while Slowly traveling parallel to the curb, would mean Haygood Never intended to Jump the Elm curb. Whether it was simply the haste of the moment while simultaneously pulling his side arm from its' holster, along with the heavy weight of the motorcycle + the incline of Elm street, resulted in Haygood accidentally Dumping his bike at the curb. An embarrassing situation for a Cop at Any point in time but especially mortifying due to the Historical setting in which he did such. 
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Barry Pollard on July 13, 2019, 08:03:28 AM
I feel you're focusing too much on the "jump".  The ridiculousness part as far as you are concerned, would be what he was going to do next, ride up a grassy incline on his bike, the idea you mocked when it came to Hargis.  Even me having Bobby riding across a reasonably flat grassy section, you couldn't seem to handle but Clive?  NP apparently.  That's my point is all.
There's something more about Hargis though but I feel we've had enough of a wander off through this Darnell thread already.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Royell Storing on July 13, 2019, 02:34:19 PM
I feel you're focusing too much on the "jump".  The ridiculousness part as far as you are concerned, would be what he was going to do next, ride up a grassy incline on his bike, the idea you mocked when it came to Hargis.  Even me having Bobby riding across a reasonably flat grassy section, you couldn't seem to handle but Clive?  NP apparently.  That's my point is all.
There's something more about Hargis though but I feel we've had enough of a wander off through this Darnell thread already.

    I believe if Officer Hargis had gone Off Road and then Hi-Tailed it UP into the railroad yard, he would have stated such during his Sworn Testimony and/or mentioned it at some point over the 50 years+ following the assassination. Over the course of 50 years+ there is nary a peep from Hargis regarding this speculated journey you are promoting.
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Robin Unger on July 19, 2019, 05:37:21 PM
Can we get this outta the way?  Do you believe Haygood attempted to ride up the incline on Elm, in order to reach the top of it, on the same type bike as Hargis but failed at the curb?

Haygood seen in Couch lifting his motorcycle to it's upright position.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/Couch/20160719-210542.JPG)
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Robin Unger on July 19, 2019, 05:43:54 PM
Haygood in Bell.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Haygood~0.jpg)
Title: Re: Cook? Films Darnell Filming West Face of the TSBD (revised)
Post by: Royell Storing on September 22, 2019, 04:05:27 PM
Can we get this outta the way?  Do you believe Haygood attempted to ride up the incline on Elm, in order to reach the top of it, on the same type bike as Hargis but failed at the curb?

    In my opinion Haygood Never intended to jump the Elm St curb and ride Up the Grassy Knoll. If you look at the film footage of Haygood tipping his motorcycle back into an upright position, the motorcycle is situated Parallel to the curb next to it. Who attempts to jump anything while traveling parallel to it? (Other than Steve McQueen in "The Great Escape"). It is easiest to jump an object while moving directly toward it as is possible.  I believe in his haste to get off the bike and then run Up the Grassy Knoll, Haygood simply dumped the heavy motorcycle right there at the curb where he had coasted to a stop.