JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Thomas Graves on May 26, 2019, 02:50:18 AM

Title: Am I Really All That Paranoid About The Ruskies? (LOL)
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 26, 2019, 02:50:18 AM
It's interesting that the recent hack of this fine forum occurred right after I'd posted some evidence indicating the KGB was behind the assassination, and that the hack deleted said post and Brian Doyle's cogent reply to it.

Hmmm ...

-- MWT  ;)

PS  But I must be terribly wrong about that, because we already know that those nice Ruskies never do anything like that, just our own evil, evil, evil CIA!

Right, Walton Michael Clark?

(LOL)



Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Tom Scully on May 26, 2019, 04:18:10 AM
Quoting mwt exactly as he posted, although I haven't thoroughly read of any obligation to, speaks volumes. 

It's interesting that the hack occurred right after I'd posted some evidence indicating the KGB was behind the assassination, and that the hack deleted said post and Brian Doyle's cogent reply to it.

Hmmm ...

-- MWT  ;)

PS  But I must be terribly wrong about that, because we already know that those nice Ruskies never do anything like that, just the evil, evil, evil CIA!

Right, Walton?

(LOL)

IOW....
(https://images.reference.com/amg-cms-reference-images/prod/kick-sign-come_4f8ada6e7f2017a8.jpg?width=760&height=411&fit=crop)

Quote
William E. Nelson CIA Official

The Washington Post Apr 29, 1995

William E. Nelson, 74, who served with the Central Intelligence Agency for 28 years before retiring in 1976 as its deputy director of operations, died April 1 in a nursing home in Newport Beach, Calif. He had Parkinson's disease.

Mr. Nelson was a Buffalo native and Army veteran. A graduate of Columbia Univesity, he received a master's degree in China studies from Harvard University. He began his CIA career in 1948 as an operations office and specialized in the Far East. He was chief of the Far East division of the Operations Directorate from 1968 until becoming deputy director for operations in 1973.

He was a recipient of the Distinguished Intelligence Medal.

Mr. Nelson, who lived in Newport Beach, moved to California in 1977, where he was a vice president of the Fluor Corp., until retiring a second time in 1986.

Survivors include his wife of 45 years, .....
Quote
......FENDIG, PHILIP FRANKLIN.

Ted Shackley introduces Philip F. Fendig to the HSCA :
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=100555#relPageId=2

(http://jfkforum.com/images/GaryWebbNelsonFendig.jpg)
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 26, 2019, 05:42:16 AM
Quoting mwt exactly as he posted, although I haven't thoroughly read of any obligation to, speaks volumes. 

IOW....

Scully,

Point being?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Barry Pollard on May 26, 2019, 08:02:56 AM
Try posting it again?
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Charles Collins on May 26, 2019, 12:22:32 PM
Try posting it again?

If he was paranoid before he posted it, he is likely to be even more paranoid now. 😁
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Denis Pointing on May 26, 2019, 12:51:36 PM
Someone, please tell Thomas that the mud he's been 'wrassling' in is actually BS.  :D :D :D
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 26, 2019, 08:41:08 PM
Someone, please tell Thomas that the mud he's been 'wrassling' in is actually BS. 

The KGB and the DGI were humanitarian organizations!

And, and, and ... Khrushchev and Castro had no reason to want charasmatic anti-communist Kennedy dead, or for LBJ to take his place to ... to ... to ... Hasten The Dialectics!

LOL

-- MWT  ;)

Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Tom Scully on May 26, 2019, 09:01:01 PM
Scully,

Point being?

-- MWT  ;)

Quote
....[Verse 3]
Have you come here for forgiveness?
Have you come to raise the dead?
Have you come here to play Jesus
To the lepers in your head?

[Chorus 3]
Did I ask too much? More than a lot
You gave me nothing, now it's all I got

Quote
https://ocweekly.com/crack-cop-6389255/
NICK SCHOU | POSTED ONJULY 12, 2001

The CIA has always denied it used drug traffickers to raise cash for Ronald Reagan's 1980s war against the Nicaraguan Sandinista government. But FBI documents recently released to the OC Weekly show that a former top agency official met throughout that period with Ronald J. Lister, an ex-Laguna Beach cop who claimed to be the CIA's link between the South American cocaine trade, the Nicaraguan contras and LA's most notorious drug trafficker.

The FBI documents, five heavily censored pages released in response to the Weekly's 1997 Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the CIA, concern Lister and William Earl Nelson, a vice president for security with the Irvine-based construction giant Fluor Corp. Nelson's previous job: deputy director of operations for the CIA. Nelson retired from the CIA in 1976 amid heated controversy over its ill-fated forays into Chile and Angolaóclandestine operations that Nelson supervised from his office at the CIA's Langley, Virginia, headquarters.

Lister's relationship with the Fluor executive began in 1978. How they met isn't clear, thanks to government censors. But the documents do show that Nelson told FBI agents he met with Lister three to four times per year until 1985 and discussed various business ventures, including one in Central America.

It's unclear from the documents what became of that projectóFBI censors blocked out the details, arguing that revealing them might compromise U.S. national security. But independent sources suggest the deal probably involved Lister's mysteriously well-connected security company, Newport Beach-based Pyramid International Security Consultants Inc......
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Michael Clark on May 27, 2019, 04:35:11 AM
The KGB and the DGI were humanitarian organizations!

And, and, and ... Khrushchev and Castro had no reason to want charasmatic anti-communist Kennedy dead, or for LBJ to take his place to ... to ... to ... Hasten The Dialectics!

LOL

-- MWT  ;)

...And Putin is a very nice man.
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 27, 2019, 05:47:10 AM
...And Putin is a very nice man.

I know that you and Oliver Stone love him, Mike. And the humanitarian KGB in which he was a counter-intelligenge lieutenant colonel, too!

So much nicer that the evil, evil, evil CIA, right, comrade?

You gonna try to hide my posts here like you did at the James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio-run EF, Mike? Gonna invite Paz here so you can tag-team me, again?

(Btw, is she still taking it up the you-know-what, as she appears to be doing in her EF photo?)

Gonna run to "Kathy Beckett," here, or James "The Poser" Gordon, there, like you used to do after baiting me and then quickly deleting your posts?

-- Tommy  ;)

PS  Do you still not believe that I saw Chuck Berry give a free concert in a medieval square in Brno, Czech Republic, in 1996?

Okay, then, how about the full eclipse of the sun from a beautiful, slightly inclined meadow in Hungary in 1999?

"Gotta post ticket stubs or it didn't happen"?

Ever get around to reading one of the most important non-fiction books ever written -- Spy Wars, by your bugbear, Tennent H. Bagley?

https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames/page/n3

Tried to, but there were way too many Russian names in it for your tastes?

Okay, then, how about at least reading chapter 10 of Mark Riebling's 1994 book, Wedge: The Secret War Between the FBI and CIA?

It's free-to-read on the Internet, too.
https://archive.org/details/WedgeFromPearlHarborTo911HowTheSecretWarBetweenTheFBIAndCIAHasEndangeredNationalSecurity/page/n2
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Martin Weidmann on May 27, 2019, 05:53:47 AM
I know that you and Oliver Stone love him, Mike. And the humanitarian KGB in which he was a counter-intelligenge lieutenant colonel, too!

So much nicer that the evil, evil, evil CIA, right, comrade?

You gonna try to hide my posts here like you did at the James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio-run EF, Mike? Gonna invite Paz here so you can tag-team me, again?

(Btw, is she still taking it up the you-know-what, you know, like she looks like she's doing in her EF photo?)

-- Tommy  ;)

Do you look over your shoulder every time you turn a corner?

Please get help!
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 27, 2019, 07:27:45 AM
.....

Martin,

Like Mike, Oliver Stone and James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio, do you love Vladimir Putin and loathe the evil, evil, evil Deep State/Military Industrial Intelligence Community Complex?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Martin Weidmann on May 27, 2019, 07:39:13 AM
Martin,

Like Mike, Oliver Stone and James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio, do you love Vladimir Putin and loathe the evil, evil, evil Deep State/Military Industrial Intelligence Community Complex?

-- MWT  ;)

How does considering you to be a pathetic paranoid even tell you anything about what I love or not?

But the answer to you question is; No
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 27, 2019, 08:18:33 AM
How does considering you to be a pathetic paranoid even tell you anything about what I love or not?

But the answer to you question is; No

Dear Martin,

What have I posted here since I joined about a year ago (other than my tongue-in-cheek post that started this thread) that has led you to conclude that I'm a "pathetic paranoid"?

My belief that the KGB and/or the DGI killed JFK?

If not that, what?

Are you capable of debating it with me?

Or only of hurling lame epithets?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Regarding The Recent Hack ...
Post by: Michael Walton on May 27, 2019, 10:21:03 AM
The Russkies didn't do it. Tom Graves conveniently leaves out many other factors in the case where it'd be nearly impossible or a million in one chance of the murder taking place with the Russkies involved. He simply bears down - and bears down hard - on one little episode in October in Mexico City, and then transposes that to the entire assassination. If you think about it, it's really quite funny.

And see his previous replies here. Because someone disagrees with him about his Russkies theory, he then changes tactics and says xxxx like "You must love Oliver Stone" or "You must love Putin." Before it was deleted, Graves posted a Despise List, which was quite revealing at the time. Put another way, his investigative acumen here is terribly biased. Yet, he uses that same tactic ("You must love...") as a defense of his theory. Ridiculous.

Also, some of my posts have been deleted as well so don't feel too bad. I asked the admin about this. I basically said it's not my fault that there are crazies on this board that need a non-crazy reply to their posts.
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Martin Weidmann on May 27, 2019, 11:09:27 AM
Dear Martin,

What have I posted here since I joined about a year ago (other than my tongue-in-cheek post that started this thread) that has led you to conclude that I'm a "pathetic paranoid"?

My belief that the KGB and/or the DGI killed JFK?

If not that, what?

Are you capable of debating it with me?

Or only of hurling lame epithets?

-- MWT  ;)

Your posts shows you to be a one trick pony. The Russian somehow being involved in just about everything, including the "hack" of this forum (if there was one) seems a bit paranoid to me.
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 27, 2019, 11:42:48 AM
Your posts shows you to be a one trick pony. The Russian somehow being involved in just about everything, including the "hack" of this forum (if there was one) seems a bit paranoid to me.

Walton, Dear Martin,

Have you been following events in the U.S. for the last ten years, or so?

Have you heard of the eleven or twelve-person "Anna Chapman Spy Ring" that was finally rolled up in 2010?

Have you heard about how Russia's GRU hacked the DNC's computers in 2016, and gave thousands of stolen emails to Julian "I Never Say Anything Bad About Russia" Assange for him to release at critical moments in the campaign?

Have you heard about Putin's Saint Petersburg Troll Factory,  and how it worked 24/7 during the campaign to spread targeted anti-Clinton/pro-Trump fake news and propaganda through American social media?

Ever heard of Konstantin Kilimnik, Joseph Misfud, Carter Page?

Or do you dismiss all of that (and lots, lots more) in deference to Bill Binney, Julian Assange, Alex Jones, Danny Bongino, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio, Jefferson "Intellectually Dishonest" Morley, and/or Donald "Useful Idiot" Trump?

-- MWT  :)


Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Martin Weidmann on May 27, 2019, 02:00:24 PM
Walton,

Have you been following events in the U.S. for the last ten years, or so?

Have you heard of the eleven or twelve-person "Anna Chapman Spy Ring" that was finally rolled up in 2010?

Have you heard about how Russia's GRU hacked the DNC's computers in 2016, and gave thousands of stolen emails to Julian "I Never Say Anything Bad About Russia" Assange for him to release at critical moments in the campaign?

Have you heard about Putin's Saint Petersburg Troll Factory,  and how it worked 24/7 during the campaign to spread targeted anti-Clinton/pro-Trump fake news and propaganda through American social media?

Ever heard of Konstantin Kilimnik, Joseph Misfud, Carter Page?

Or do you dismiss all of that (and lots, lots more) in deference to Bill Binney, Julian Assange, Alex Jones, Danny Bongino, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio, Jefferson "Intellectually Dishonest" Morley, and/or Donald "Useful Idiot" Trump?

-- MWT  :)

First of all, my name isn't Walton

Secondly, this black or white, are you with me or against me, crap;

Or do you dismiss all of that (and lots, lots more) in deference to Bill Binney, Julian Assange, Alex Jones, Danny Bongino, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio, Jefferson "Intellectually Dishonest" Morley, and/or Donald "Useful Idiot" Trump?

not only doesn't work but it also makes an extremely weak impression.


Of course the Russians aren't choir boys but neither are we, when it comes to international politics.
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Michael Clark on May 27, 2019, 02:35:05 PM
I know that you and Oliver Stone love him, Mike. And the humanitarian KGB in which he was a counter-intelligenge lieutenant colonel, too!

So much nicer that the evil, evil, evil CIA, right, comrade?

You gonna try to hide my posts here like you did at the James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio-run EF, Mike? Gonna invite Paz here so you can tag-team me, again?

(Btw, is she still taking it up the you-know-what, as she appears to be doing in her EF photo?)

Gonna run to "Kathy Beckett," here, or James "The Poser" Gordon, there, like you used to do after baiting me and then quickly deleting your posts?

-- Tommy  ;)

PS  Do you still not believe that I saw Chuck Berry give a free concert in a medieval square in Brno, Czech Republic, in 1996?

Okay, then, how about the full eclipse of the sun from a beautiful, slightly inclined meadow in Hungary in 1999?

"Gotta post ticket stubs or it didn't happen"?

Ever get around to reading one of the most important non-fiction books ever written -- Spy Wars, by your bugbear, Tennent H. Bagley?

https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames/page/n3

Tried to, but there were way too many Russian names in it for your tastes?

Okay, then, how about at least reading chapter 10 of Mark Riebling's 1994 book, Wedge: The Secret War Between the FBI and CIA?

It's free-to-read on the Internet, too.
https://archive.org/details/WedgeFromPearlHarborTo911HowTheSecretWarBetweenTheFBIAndCIAHasEndangeredNationalSecurity/page/n2

Muddy Professor,

I ask questions, I donít answer them. Not from you anyway.
Title: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 27, 2019, 03:23:06 PM
Muddy Professor,

I ask questions, I donít answer them. Not from you anyway.


Or from me too...Clark went over to the other forum and slagged me but I see he can't back up his Prayer Man stuff directly over here...
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Michael Clark on May 27, 2019, 03:45:01 PM

Or from me too...Clark went over to the other forum and slagged me but I see he can't back up his Prayer Man stuff directly over here...

I never slagged you. You are making that up.

And regarding ďPrayer Man stuffĒ. I donít have any of that. I think that the picture is not clear enough to tell, although it looks more like Oswald than it doesnít. The height is a problem and I appreciate people who are working on that problem, spending time and money to work it out, and to share it with others. They are not dishonest people, and do good work, and invite, listen-to, appreciate, and respond to criticism, like intelligent reasonable adults.
Title: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 27, 2019, 04:43:04 PM
I never slagged you. You are making that up.

And regarding ďPrayer Man stuffĒ. I donít have any of that. I think that the picture is not clear enough to tell, although it looks more like Oswald than it doesnít. The height is a problem and I appreciate people who are working on that problem, spending time and money to work it out, and to share it with others. They are not dishonest people, and do good work, and invite, listen-to, appreciate, and respond to criticism, like intelligent reasonable adults.


Yes you did...It is right there in the record...You went back and made a negative remark about myself and my Prayer Man evidence but never addressed the actual evidence I was discussing...

Your input on the Prayer Man topic is way behind where we are on the subject and I would suggest it is due to the lack of any input from our side on the other forum - which is proof of what I am saying...4 persons backed the Prayer Man theory on that board and all 4 were banned...

Wrong Michael...They are deliberately highly untruthful persons...They have been ignoring conclusive proof that Prayer Man is Sarah Stanton now for years...When you ask them to answer perfectly reasonable good arguments of evidence they respond by calling you "mentally disturbed" while avoiding your arguments...Honest people don't do that...

They don't do good work...Stancak is classic hack and pseudo-analyst...Most of his work refutes itself and when you point-out those fatal flaws in Stancak's work he ignores you and refuses to honestly answer your points...Yet in spite of this you actually claim they appreciate and respond to criticism...You're deluding yourself Michael...You are referring to a board where a rogue moderator abuses his power and bans anyone who starts disproving the Prayer Man theory...That moderator makes up false rules violations against the people he censors and bans in favor of his Prayer Man friends...What you are saying is provably, backwardsly wrong Michael...Stancak and those others have been reading my input here yet if you observe the threads because of that censorship they selectively do not address my refuting points when they respond over there...You can compare the posts and when they refer to my input they always omit the parts where I ask them to respond to the refuting evidence...In other words they know it refutes them and selectively omit it...They then lie and claim I deserve not to be responded to because of behavior they refuse to cite...They're lying...I haven't done anything to deserve the total destroying they are trying to do to me except disprove the Prayer Man theory...The exact opposite is true and you can simply read the threads and see they are using bully censorship to run from the proof I am showing...They're cowards - which is why they don't come over here...

Larsen sent me an e-mail saying the Lovelady in the plaid shirt on the steps in Martin was a fake Lovelady and wasn't the real one...Larsen claims the real Lovelady had a vertically striped shirt on that day...Of course Larsen never shows any images of Lovelady seen in that shirt in the photography...Michael, if I made the Cinque/Fetzer-type claim that there was a fake Lovelady in Martin wearing the plaid shirt I would be pilloried and ridiculed mercilessly...When Sandy does it it is OK however and none of the good-natured honest researchers you credit say anything...The reason for that is because of the world class-sized double standard that other forum practices towards Prayer Man...It is OK for a Prayer Man advocate to make a bizarre fake Lovelady in Martin claim as long as it supports the already-debunked Oswald as Prayer Man nuttery...It is only persons who point-out the obvious insanity of that claim that have trouble...Because of this huge untruthful bias none of the membership mentions that Sandy claimed this because he was trying to indirectly admit he did match the plaid bars on Lovelady's shirt to the man on the extension therefore proving Lovelady & Shelley are seen going up the Elm St extension together in Couch/Darnell...The other forum's membership knows Larsen posted a post where he forensically matched the plaid bars on Lovelady's shirt to those on the man on the extension...Yet these people you claim are so honest and open to discussion never admitted they all witnessed that post...

Michael...I have made several serious break-throughs in the last year...I got an interview with Sarah Stanton's relatives that is probably the most important new evidence in 40 years where those relatives told of Stanton witnessing Oswald by the 2nd floor lunch room staircase prior to the assassination...I also spoke to Chris Calvery and even had a rare phone call with Buell Frazier...The honest forums you credit totally ignored these important new discoveries...If they are such good and honest researchers why did they do that?...Could it be Michael that maybe they aren't such good researchers after all and deal with things on a petty personal basis where they would be willing to ignore those important new finds in order to conduct a hate campaign against a researcher who disproved them?...What would be the excuse for ignoring such important new evidence?...Certianly no serious researcher would ignore such evidence...Is there, Michael, a relationship between this petty nature and the fact they promote the already-disproven Prayer Man theory?...

So Michael...Let's put your claim to the test...Let's test that openly inviting, fair-minded, and honestly responsive nature of the members of the other forum...Since there is no problem over there as you claim to evidence being discussed and important points being objectively responded to, go over there and ask Andrej Stancak to honestly and directly respond to why he never made any computer graphic for Wiegman?...Ask Mr Stancak to make a frontal and overhead perspective computer graphic for the Wiegman frame of Prayer Man...Especially ask him to use it to illustrate how Prayer Man has a foot on the step...And then follow it up by asking Stancak to directly and honestly discuss why Prayer Man has a sunlight-illuminated left leg in his computer graphic of Darnell but when you look at the Darnell image itself there is no such sunlit leg?...Ask him to answer that in detail and explain why no sunlit bent left leg appears in the actual Darnell frame and how that relates to his claim that Prayer Man has a foot on the step...

 
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Michael Clark on May 27, 2019, 05:32:02 PM

Yes you did...It is right there in the record...You went back and made a negative remark about myself and my Prayer Man evidence


Brian, if itís there, quote me. I suspect that you may be taking unjustified umbrage to a point I may have made about your style, which I repeated here in the last hour or so to help you understand why you do not get the engagement from other researchers which you incessantly complain is missing from your on-line debate and research experience.

You would say that you do not get that engagement because they know you are right and that they are liars. That kind of thinking doesnít work for me, and I donít think that I have let myself use that kind of logic since I was a child. I would expect to be isolated and marginalized if I used that logic, you should too. Some people get away with that; most donít, and do not try.

Title: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 27, 2019, 06:35:12 PM
Brian, if itís there, quote me. I suspect that you may be taking unjustified umbrage to a point I may have made about your style, which I repeated here in the last hour or so to help you understand why you do not get the engagement from other researchers which you incessantly complain is missing from your on-line debate and research experience.

You would say that you do not get that engagement because they know you are right and that they are liars. That kind of thinking doesnít work for me, and I donít think that I have let myself use that kind of logic since I was a child. I would expect to be isolated and marginalized if I used that logic, you should too. Some people get away with that; most donít, and do not try.


Nice use of the style excuse to dodge most of the evidence-backed points I made...

Your input here is ridiculous and insults the intelligent points I made...It only proves the intelligence-insulting logic that was used to unfairly ban me in the first place...

You're not being sincere Michael and you haven't provided adequate excuse for not going over and asking Stancak the questions I asked you to ask him...You're obviously afraid of something and using a false excuse against style to avoid the evidence I was discussing...

Michael:   Please tell me what was unacceptable, style or otherwise, with the two points of evidence I asked you to confront Stancak with?...What was unacceptable by style with Stancak answering why there is no sun on the left leg of Prayer Man in Darnell when his graphic shows bright sun on Prayer Man's leg?...And what was unacceptable about Stancak being asked why he didn't produce a graphic for Prayer Man in Wiegman?...You seem to uncredibly have skipped the part where you actually confront the evidence I am saying they are uncredibly ignoring...

Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 27, 2019, 08:00:11 PM
Of course the Russians aren't choir boys but neither are we, when it comes to international politics.

Dear Martin,

Do you, like most JFK Assassination CTers, believe we live in an evil "Deep State"?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 27, 2019, 08:03:05 PM
Muddy Professor,

I ask questions, I donít answer them. Not from you anyway.

Mike,

Because you simply can't, or because you're simply unable to?

-- Tommy   ;)

Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Michael Clark on May 27, 2019, 08:10:16 PM
Mike,

Because you can't, or because you're unable to?

-- Tommy   ;)

Tom,

I just wanted to call you Tom.

That is all, Tom.
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 27, 2019, 08:33:43 PM
Tom,

I just wanted to call you Tom.

That is all, Tom.

In other words, you're really good at slinging xxxx at people with whom you vehemently disagree, but are incapable of articulating why you disagree with them, especially if they've laid out some evidence and recent discoveries which suggest that Khrushchev and/or Castro were behind the assassination of JFK.

It appears that you either refuse to read (or did read but have decided to completely ignore) what Tennent H. Bagley (who was a LNer, btw) wrote in his 2007 book Spy Wars and in his 2014 follow-up PDF Ghosts of the Spy Wars about your anti-Bagley, anti-Angleton heroes Leonard McCoy and John L. Hart, et al.

Do you follow Professor John M. Newman, Mike? Did you know that he agrees with Bagley when he says Golitsyn was a true defector and Nosenko a false one, sent to the U.S. to contradict what Golitsyn was telling CIA?

Never mind.

I forgot -- You ask questions, you don't answer them.

 Especially from me.

LOL

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Michael Clark on May 27, 2019, 09:22:30 PM
In other words, you're really good at slinging xxxx at people with whom you vehemently disagree, but are incapable of articulating why you disagree with them, especially if they've laid out some evidence and recent discoveries which suggest that Khrushchev and/or Castro were behind the assassination of JFK.

It appears that you either refuse to read (or have read but have decided to completely ignore) what Tennent H. Bagley (who was a LNer, btw) wrote in his 2007 book Spy Wars and in his 2014 follow-up PDF Ghosts of the Spy Wars about your anti-Bagley, anti-Angleton heroes Leonard McCoy and John L. Hart, et al.

Do you follow Professor John M. Newman, Mike? Did you know that he agrees with Bagley when he says Golitsyn was a true defector and Nosenko a false one, sent to the U.S. to contradict what Golitsyn was telling CIA?

Never mind.

I forgot -- You ask questions, you don't answer them.

 Especially from me.

LOL

-- MWT  ;)

In other words, you're really good at slinging xxxx at people with whom you vehemently disagree

I didnít sling any **** at you. I havenít vehemently disagreed with you. If you are referring to my refutation, a few hours ago, of your characterization of Newmanís WW3 virus hypothesis, I simply showed you that, and how, you were factually mistaken. I also offered my alternative interpretation of the important information that Newman and Morley gathered from Jane Roman, with which Newman assembled his hypothesis. I thought you could, and might, appreciate both.

....evidence and recent discoveries which suggest that Khrushchev and/or Castro were behind the assassination of JFK.

I just donít buy it. I havenít begrudged you your theory; although I grow weary reading of your hawking the singlular capability of your pony.

It appears that you either refuse to read (or have read but have decided to completely ignore) what Tennent H. Bagley (who was a LNer, btw) wrote in his 2007 book Spy Wars and in his 2014 follow-up PDF Ghosts of the Spy Wars about your anti-Bagley, anti-Angleton heroes Leonard McCoy and John L. Hart, et al.

I havenít read it. You know that I believe that Angleton was innocent of involvement in the JFKA. I donít believe Bagley, as you know, yet you begrudge me my favorite counter to the veracity and reliability of him. I see that I shall soon have to dig that up.




I forgot -- You ask questions, you don't answer them.


We both have a great deal of respect for the Socratic Method. But, that method exists in a teacher-student relationship, by consent. You are not my teacher; I am not your student; I do not consent to being the subject of such a relationship to you. If it were a two-way street, things might be different and it could possibly be instructive, and fun, to more than just us. But, alas, you canít accept the swapping of those roles, for the benefit of anyone.

Michael

Title: Re: Regarding The Recent Hack ...
Post by: Tom Scully on May 27, 2019, 10:02:58 PM
Tommy, Brian....dinner's ready!
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 27, 2019, 10:48:15 PM
I havenít read (Spy Wars or Ghosts of the Spy Wars. I donít believe Bagley, as you know, yet you begrudge me my favorite counter to his veracity and reliability. I see that I shall soon have to dig that up.

-- slightly edited by MWT to eliminate some horrendous grammar by the SUNY-educated English Literature graduate

Shall?

LOL

Wouldst that perchance be The Monster Plot by John L. Hart?  Or something Leonard McCoy wrote?  Cleveland Cram, perhaps?

It's fascinating that you say that you don't believe Bagley, even though you admit to not having read his 35-page PDF!

The PDF titled Ghosts of the Spy Wars, in which he wrote a five-page exposť of one of your buddies, Leonard McCoy, the disingenous "Reports-and Requirements" officer who was instrumental in getting CIA, in 1968, to declare false defector Nosenko true, and true defector Golitsyn virtually false.

Ah yes, Leonard McCoy, the Reports-and-Requirements officer (i.e., with no counter- intelligence experience) who got turned onto the evil, evil doings of Tennent H.Bagley by probable traitor Richard Kovich, who, as luck would have it, in 1967 was snooping around (outside his authorized area) when he eventually found what he was looking for! -- a very rare and top-secret 439-page summary of Bagley's 900-page analysis of Nosenko, which he apprised McCoy about, so that he could write a twisted and unauthorized 40-page "summary" and three memo about, send them off to the powers that be and get the ball rolling for Nosenko and against evil, evil, evil Bagley and one of his guiding lights, true defector Anatoliy Golitsyn!

And the rest, as they say, is history.

(You do remember that in 2016, "former" KGB Counterintelligence lieutenant colonel Vladimir Putin installed a pro-Kremlin "useful idiot" as our president, don't you?)

I doubt that there are too many Russian names in the PDF for you, Mike, even though there are quite a few.

Probably just way too much "cognitive dissonance" pain for you to handle, right?

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Michael Clark on May 27, 2019, 11:10:14 PM

I havenít read (Spy Wars or Ghosts of the Spy Wars. I donít believe Bagley, as you know, yet you begrudge me my favorite counter to his veracity and reliability. I see that I shall soon have to dig that up.

-- slightly edited by MWT to eliminate some horrendous grammar by the SUNY-educated English Literature graduate

-- MWT   ;)

I wasnít an English Literature major, and you botched the correcting if my sentence.
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Martin Weidmann on May 27, 2019, 11:33:55 PM
Dear Martin,

Do you, like most JFK Assassination CTers, believe we live in an evil "Deep State"?

-- MWT   ;)

Before i answer, you will have to define much more closely what you mean precisely by "Deep State".
Title: Re: Regarding The Recent Hack ...
Post by: Michael Clark on May 27, 2019, 11:40:58 PM
And, to be more accurate, I think Bagley was wrong in his assessment of Nosenko being a false defector. The government agrees with me, not you. They let him go, said sorry, and gave him a bunch money to make-up for the torture inflicted by Bagley.
Title: Re: Regarding The Recent Hack ...
Post by: Michael Clark on May 27, 2019, 11:44:47 PM
And, here is the doc that ďSplked peteís CareerĒ, according to Newman.


https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32359254.pdf


 

 TOP SECRET  13 October 1970  MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD 

Subject: BAGELY, Tennant, Harrington   #386 38

 1) On Wednesday, 7 October 1970 I briefed Colonel L. K. White, Executive  Director-Controller on certain reservations I have concerning the proposed promotion of subject to a supergrade position.  

 2)  I was very careful to explain to Colonel White at the outset that my reservations had nothing whatsoever to do with Bagely's security status. I explained that it was my conviction that Bagely was almost exclusively responsible for the manner in which the Nosenko case had been handled by our SR division. I said I considered that Bagely lacked objectivity and that he had displayed extremely poor judgment over a two year period in the handling of this case. Specifically as one example of Bagely's extreme prejudice I pointed out that the SR division had neglected to follow up several leads provided by Nosenko which subsequently had been followed up by this office (Bruce Solie) and that this lead us to individuals who have confessed their recruitment and use by the Soviets over an extensive period of time.
 
3)  I explained further that Bagely displayed extremely poor judgment in the actions he took during that time that  Nosenko was incarcerated at ISOLATION. On many occasions, as the individual responsible for Nosenko's care, I refuse to condone Bagely's  instructions to my people who are guarding him. In one instance Bagely insisted that  Nosenko's food ration be reduced to black bread and water three times daily. After I had briefed Colonel White, he indicated that he would refresh the Director's memory on Bagely's role in the Nosenko case at the time he reviews supergrade promotions.     

Howard J. Osborn  Director of Security      
Title: Re: Regarding The Recent Hack ...
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 27, 2019, 11:55:43 PM
And, to be more accurate, I think Bagley was wrong in his assessment of Nosenko being a false defector. The government agrees with me, not you. They let him go, said sorry, and gave him a bunch money to make-up for the torture inflicted by Bagley.

Why do you disagree with John Newman and Peter Dale Scott on Nosenko, i.e., that Nosenko was a false defector?

-- MWT  ;)

Title: Re: Regarding The Recent Hack ...
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 28, 2019, 12:02:55 AM
Here is the doc that ďSplked Peteís Career,Ēaccording to Newman.
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32359254.pdf
TOP SECRET  13 October 1970  MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD 
Subject: BAGELY, Tennant, Harrington   #386 38
[...]
[A]s one example of Bagely's extreme prejudice I pointed out that the S[oviet]R[ussia] division had neglected to follow up several leads provided by Nosenko which subsequently had[sic] been followed up by this office (Bruce Solie) and that this led us to individuals who have confessed their recruitment and use by the Soviets over an extensive period of time.
[...]
Howard J. Osborn  Director of Security      

Mike,

Who were the presumably not-already-suspected, still-useful-to-the-Kremlin traitors whom your boy Nosenko allegedly "fingered" for the CIA?

Hint: There weren't any.

Unlike the traitors true-defector Anatoliy Golitsyn helped our intelligence agencies and those of our allies to uncover, all of the ones your boy Nosenko "uncovered" were either already suspected, or had already lost access to classified information.

Waiting on torturous pins and needles and in solitary confinement for your reply ...

-- MWT  ;)


PS  I reiterate:

Why do you disagree with Professor Peter Dale Scott and former U.S. Army Intelligence analyst, John Newman, on Nosenko?


PS  Your link, above, sucks.
h t t p s://w w w.archives. gov/yadayadayada ...
This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.
<Error>
<Code>AccessDenied</Code>
<Message>Access Denied</Message>
<RequestId>23D76D0FA9E28B16</RequestId>
<HostId>
UZNjF3eXzedmD/nJXgQ7Tk97JwSkCFnfcM3ijmuT7hSwxtJYMymGbgZnxceMpgMGQt4Nrm89zNg=
</HostId>
</Error>
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: John Mytton on May 28, 2019, 05:20:34 AM

Michael...I have made several serious break-throughs in the last year...I got an interview with Sarah Stanton's relatives that is probably the most important new evidence in 40 years where those relatives told of Stanton witnessing Oswald by the 2nd floor lunch room staircase prior to the assassination...


Sarah's relatives repeating commonly believed CT nonsense 50+ years later? You have got to be kidding?

Sarah Stanton herself told the FBI that she never saw Oswald on the 22nd.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0QCTd9Q9/sarah-stanton.jpg)

Pauline Sanders left the lunchroom at about 12:20 on the 22nd, also told the FBI that she didn't see Oswald on the 22nd.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Dwy8qzww/Pauline-Sanders-ce-1381.jpg)

And even if they did see Oswald at about 12:20 then that proves nothing since the 6th floor was only a couple of minutes away and this evidence could be easily interpreted as Oswald looking for an alibi but unfortunately he wasn't that smart.

JohnM
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 28, 2019, 07:28:44 AM
Before I answer, you will have to define much more closely what you mean precisely by "Deep State".

Martin,

The "Deep State" is the evil military-industrial-intelligence complex, run by a group of corporate bosses and rogue government agencies hell-bent on circumventing democratic procedures to maintain power."

That work for you?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 28, 2019, 08:36:50 AM
I wasnít an English Literature major, and you botched the correcting if my sentence.

" ... the correcting if my sentence" ?
Title: Re: Regarding The Recent Hack ...
Post by: Michael Clark on May 28, 2019, 12:34:53 PM
Mike,

PS  Your link, above, sucks.


Tom,

Thanks, fixed it

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32359254.pdf
Title: Re: Regarding The Recent Hack ...
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 28, 2019, 12:39:16 PM
Tom,

Thanks, fixed it

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32359254.pdf

You're welcome, Michael.
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 28, 2019, 11:02:10 PM
Michael...I have made several serious break-throughs in the last year...I got an interview with Sarah Stanton's relatives that is probably the most important new evidence in 40 years where those relatives told of Stanton witnessing Oswald by the 2nd floor lunch room staircase prior to the assassination...

Stanton's relatives didn't say that.  Doyle made it up.

This is the problem with Doyle's self-proclaimed "good evidence".  It's not evidence at all -- it's fabricated nonsense.
Title: Regarding The Recent Hack ...
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 28, 2019, 11:16:17 PM

Oswald was obviously waiting for the ladies who were still in the 2nd floor lunch room to leave so he could go in there...He was out on the 2nd floor staircase landing where Stanton saw him while she was probably leaving that same lunch room to go out and watch the motorcade...

Stanton said that when she came back in to the Depository after the assassination she took the passenger elevator back upstairs...If she did that on the way back then she most-likely did that on the way out due to her obesity...That elevator was separated from the front stairs by a wall so Stanton never saw Oswald by the front staircase...Had to be the back staircase because Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room shortly after...

Clark only smears people...He doesn't answer the actual evidence however...



Title: Re: Regarding The Recent Hack ...
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 28, 2019, 11:29:11 PM
Oswald was obviously waiting for the ladies who were still in the 2nd floor lunch room to leave so he could go in there...He was out on the 2nd floor staircase landing where Stanton saw him while she was probably leaving that same lunch room to go out and watch the motorcade...

There's no evidence for any of this.  It's all fabricated BS.

Quote
Stanton said that when she came back in to the Depository after the assassination she took the passenger elevator back upstairs...If she did that on the way back then she most-likely did that on the way out due to her obesity...

Calling a fabrication "most-likely" doesn't make it anything more than a fabrication.

Quote
Clark only smears people...He doesn't answer the actual evidence however...

Made-up BS does not constitute evidence.
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Martin Weidmann on May 29, 2019, 01:24:36 AM
Martin,

The "Deep State" is the evil military-industrial-intelligence complex, run by a group of corporate bosses and rogue government agencies hell-bent on circumventing democratic procedures to maintain power."

That work for you?

-- MWT   ;)

That work for you?

No, not really. Too vague and certainly not specific enough. I fully understand politics is and has always been a dirty game and special interests lobby groups do exist, but I don't chase ghosts. Do you have anything solid?
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 29, 2019, 02:52:33 AM
That work for you?

No, not really. Too vague and certainly not specific enough. I fully understand politics is and has always been a dirty game and special interests lobby groups do exist, but I don't chase ghosts. Do you have anything solid?

Dear Marty.

How could I, seein' as how I don't believe in it, myself?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Tom Scully on May 29, 2019, 03:37:52 AM
That work for you?

No, not really. Too vague and certainly not specific enough. I fully understand politics is and has always been a dirty game and special interests lobby groups do exist, but I don't chase ghosts. Do you have anything solid?

They'll tell you Trump is a victim of a three years old, deep state sponsored secret plot against him.
If indeed Trump suddenly moved the transition operation out of Trump Tower in reaction to face to face November 17 contact with
Admiral Mike Rogers, is this not proof Trump is a clever, nimble, flexible "victim"? Would not a competent Deep State discern it has
better things to do than transform a self promoted wunderkind winner huckster into a victim POTUS?

Quote
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-transition-to-the-white-house-live-blog/
.....
Thursday, November 17, (2016)
.......
10:50 a.m. ET In the president-electís daily transition conference call with Sean Spicer and Jason Miller, the transition team offered a list of people Mr. Trump is meeting with today, including: South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley, former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, Texas Rep. Jeb Hensarling, Florida Gov. Rick Scott, Oracle business executive Safra Catz, Admiral Mike Rogers, and the Family Research Councilís Ken Blackwell.
.......
Quote
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/17/donald-trump-moves-transition-meetings-private-gol/
Donald Trump moves transition meetings to private golf club in New Jersey
y S.A. Miller - The Washington Times - Thursday, November 17, 2016
President-elect Donald Trump is moving the transition meetings Friday from Trump Tower in New York to Trump National Golf Club in Bedminster, New Jersey, said transition team officials.

The transition team did not provide details of who Mr. Trump will meet with at the exclusive private golf club about 35 miles west of Manhattan.....
Quote

Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/pentagon-and-intelligence-community-chiefs-have-urged-obama-to-remove-the-head-of-the-nsa/2016/11/19/44de6ea6-adff-11e6-977a-1030f822fc35_story.html?utm_term=.ef045ac52042
By Ellen Nakashima November 19, 2016
The heads of the Pentagon and the nationís intelligence community have recommended to President Obama that the director of the National Security Agency, Adm. Michael S. Rogers, be removed.....
Title: Re: My "Paranoiac" Statement Regarding The Hack
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 29, 2019, 04:01:36 AM
They'll tell you Trump is a victim of a three years old, deep state sponsored secret plot against him.
If indeed Trump suddenly moved the transition operation out of Trump Tower in reaction to face to face November 17 contact with
Admiral Mike Rogers, is this not proof Tru ;)mp is a clever, nimble, flexible "victim"? Would not a competent Deep State discern it has
better things to do than transform a self promoted wunderkind winner huckster into a victim POTUS?

With a friend like Mike Rogers, who needs enemas?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/03/nsa-chief-michael-rogers-edward-snowden-probably-not-spy

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: Regarding The Recent Hack ...
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 29, 2019, 04:15:06 AM

An article from five years ago: "When Did Snowden Go Over To The Russians?"

https://20committee.com/2014/05/31/when-did-snowden-go-over-to-the-russians/

And here's a more recent one.

https://20committee.com/2016/06/11/edward-snowden-is-a-russian-agent/
Title: Re: Regarding The Recent Hack ...
Post by: Steve Logan on May 29, 2019, 05:15:28 PM
Gee Tommy , I was talking with Nancy Kerrigan a couple of days ago. She has information that Tonya Harding, Jeff Gillooly , Shane Stant and Shawn Eckardt were all part of a KGB plot  8) to help Oksana Baiul win the Olympic Gold Medal in Women's figure skating back in 1994. Crazy world, eh?
Title: Re: Regarding The Recent Hack ...
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 29, 2019, 08:28:15 PM
Gee Tommy , I was talking with Nancy Kerrigan a couple of days ago. She has information that Tonya Harding, Jeff Gillooly , Shane Stant and Shawn Eckardt were all part of a KGB plot  8) to help Oksana Baiul win the Olympic Gold Medal in Women's figure skating back in 1994. Crazy world, eh?

Sounds as though you kissed the Blarney Stone too many times, Stevie.

--MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Regarding The Recent Hack ...
Post by: Steve Logan on May 29, 2019, 09:17:37 PM
Sounds as though you kissed the Blarney Stone too many times, Stevie.

--MWT   ;)
I'm seeing her Friday at a luncheon. I'll see what stuff she is referring too. Hey I notice you're into some real crackpot sh*t. I know Patty Shaw too. (Patty Hearst) She's big into show dogs now, Shih Tzu's are her specialty. She's got some real spooky stuff. Seriously , do you think she was really brainwashed?
Title: Re: Regarding The Recent Hack ...
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 30, 2019, 04:05:29 AM
I'm seeing her Friday at a luncheon. I'll see what stuff she is referring too. Hey I notice you're into some real crackpot sh*t. I know Patty Shaw too. (Patty Hearst) She's big into show dogs now, Shih Tzu's are her specialty. She's got some real spooky stuff. Seriously , do you think she was really brainwashed?

You must be very proud of yourself.

How much does Putin pay you to spew propaganda?

-- MWT  ;)