JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Thomas Graves on May 26, 2019, 02:31:56 AM

Title: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 26, 2019, 02:31:56 AM
The question:

Are the three people walking across the Pergola Patio in the Towner Film:

Men?
-- 0 votes

Women? -- 7 votes

Impossible to tell [because all I can see are blobs]? -- 1 vote

The Tina Towner Film:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1303.0.html

.............


Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on May 28, 2019, 03:32:24 AM
I never voted but if you are talking about the 3 women in the following gifs then yeah they are women.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CMtcRgZf/3-women.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

And it appears that the 3 women to the left of the Stemmons Freeway sign are the same 3.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RVBX7TRM/zapgirlsa.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Bill Brown on May 28, 2019, 03:35:06 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I never voted but if you are talking about the 3 women in the following gifs then yeah they are women.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CMtcRgZf/3-women.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

And it appears that the 3 women to the left of the Stemmons Freeway sign are the same 3.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RVBX7TRM/zapgirlsa.gif)

JohnM

Nice catch, John.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on May 31, 2019, 09:04:56 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Nice catch, John.

Hi Bill, this isn't my discovery, all I did was take the video that the Poll was designed around and made a small gif centered on the women to get a better idea of their movements.
I think this controversy is pretty much all about Iacoletti and his claim that this video is just blobs which could be anything, maybe just the wind blowing some leaves around?

(https://i.postimg.cc/CMtcRgZf/3-women.gif)

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Indistinct blobs that you and Doyle are Rorschaching.

Now to be fair if the above video is all we had then I would by deduction say that the woman to our far left is a woman because she is wearing a dress and jacket which wasn't a male look at the time and the woman to the far right is a woman wearing a blue scarf and that wasn't cool for a bloke but the person in the center could be guy with an atypical haircut wearing a long jacket?

Fortunately, here is a video which shows the same 3 people, walking the same direction away from the same structure and shows that they are all women.

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

JohnM



Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 31, 2019, 09:32:58 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


(https://i.postimg.cc/CMtcRgZf/3-women.gif)

.......



Click on the link, below, to see the dark brown upper garment on the gal who's wearing the white skirt. (At the very end of the GIF)
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oJAH7w2nK6c/W64xZN5PTYI/AAAAAAAACaE/VGiAC_fLrDoCNKqFjvEYTDe4pRnSSrHdgCLcBGAs/s1600/towmer.gif



-- MWT   ;)

Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 03, 2019, 11:56:53 PM
Yes it those three women again and as you already pointed out that is Darnell chasing them, very nice catch, get with it paisan.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 04, 2019, 09:26:07 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Fortunately, here is a video which shows the same 3 people, walking the same direction away from the same structure and shows that they are all women.

But how do you know for a fact that these are the same people / filmed at the same time?  You may think it's a logical guess, but it's still a guess.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 04, 2019, 10:36:41 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
But how do you know for a fact that these are the same people / filmed at the same time?  You may think it's a logical guess, but it's still a guess.

At the end of the day it comes down to making logical assumptions based on the evidence and within the context of this environment what I believe would be court accepted "proof beyond a reasonable doubt".

1. Both videos show 3 people walking side by side, with virtually no one else close by.
2. Both videos show 3 people walking away from the Elm street monument.
3. Both videos show same 3 people heading the same direction.
4. Both videos show a lady on our far right wearing a light headscarf.
5. Both videos show the person in the center to have a light coloured head.
6. Both videos show the person on our far left has a dark head.
7. Both videos show that all three are wearing clothing which appears dark in shadow.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CMtcRgZf/3-women.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

Now sure there is a possibility that after these 3 people in the far off gif left the frame they were replaced by another three people that just happened to fill in all the above criteria but we all know from our personal lives that this possibility is extremely remote, so while it may never be proven to the illusive 100% Iacoletti standard, the reality is that these three people would have to be the same three.

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 04, 2019, 11:24:30 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
At the end of the day it comes down to making logical assumptions based on the evidence and within the context of this environment what I believe would be court accepted "proof beyond a reasonable doubt".

1. Both videos show 3 people walking side by side, with virtually no one else close by.

The Darnell clip is too tight to know whether this is true or not.  Unless you're just talking about immediately behind them.  But then the blob that is supposedly Darnell in Towner is running behind those figures.

Quote
2. Both videos show 3 people walking away from the Elm street monument.

The Towner figures could be walking parallel to the pergola.

Quote
3. Both videos show same 3 people heading the same direction.

Roughly the same direction.  Whether it's the same three people is what is being debated.

Quote
4. Both videos show a lady on our far right wearing a light headscarf.

There's a blue patch in Towner that could be a headscarf.

Quote
5. Both videos show the person in the center to have a light coloured head.

But in Towner, is it the person's head, or hair, or some kind of head covering?

Quote
6. Both videos show the person on our far left has a dark head.

In Towner, that person is almost entirely obscured.  Where's the edges of the head?

Quote
7. Both videos show that all three are wearing clothing which appears dark in shadow.

Well, supposedly Stella Jacob was wearing a light colored skirt.  At least according to the claim that she is also the leftmost Zapruder sign lady.

Without any knowledge about exactly when Towner was filming and when Darnell was filming this particular clip, and given the resolution of the Towner clip, it's all guess work and confirmation bias.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 04, 2019, 11:28:50 PM

I think we can ignore uncredible opinions at this point and assume the 3 Women are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...

It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt...

This means we can credibly claim Tall Woman is Calvery...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 04, 2019, 11:33:56 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I think we can ignore uncredible opinions at this point and assume the 3 Women are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...

It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt...

This means we can credibly claim Tall Woman is Calvery...

Nope.  Tall woman has absolutely nothing to do with the Darnell ladies or the Towner blobs.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 05, 2019, 12:11:39 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Without any knowledge about exactly when Towner was filming and when Darnell was filming this particular clip, and given the resolution of the Towner clip, it's all guess work and confirmation bias.

Well here could be another nail in the coffin, as the three people are walking across we see a man suddenly emerge seemingly running to where the 3 people are headed. This man in what could be a suit appears to be carrying something and it looks like he has a bag over his shoulder.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmtXSGNt/towner-man-run.gif)

James Darnell doing his job, later in the weekend.

(https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/James-Darnell.jpg)

My interpretation based on Darnell's footage is that Darnell is the running figure who sees 3 pretty sad girls and tries to move into a position where he can capture their faces. And the lady on the right is the last one to step down from something, the path?

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

Having another look I think Darnell is filming shaky cam style as he is running/walking from left to right and this footage is only seconds apart from Towner, too bad there isn't a fraction more Towner so we can see the scarfed lady step down. And not only that but based on his speed, Darnel would be in front of the girls when the background monument would be in about the same corresponding position.

Another observation is that in Towner the girls are walking towards the steps and as Darnell arrives you can see the shadow start to appear on the vertical surface of the top step. And if you look at the above Darnell video you can see the middle girl take a step down then as the the scarfed girl approaches she next takes the step down.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cLmfQ5PC/3-girls-coming-down-steps.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mDbZn3Zd/aftermath.jpg)

JohnM

Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Steve Howsley on June 05, 2019, 06:53:04 AM

Simply fantastic work JohnM  Thumb1:
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 05, 2019, 07:39:35 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Well here could be another nail in the coffin, as the three people are walking across we see a man suddenly emerge seemingly running to where the 3 people are headed. This man in what could be a suit appears to be carrying something and it looks like he has a bag over his shoulder.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmtXSGNt/towner-man-run.gif)

James Darnell doing his job, later in the weekend.

(https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/James-Darnell.jpg)

My interpretation based on Darnell's footage is that Darnell is the running figure who sees 3 pretty sad girls and tries to move into a position where he can capture their faces. And the lady on the right is the last one to step down from something, the path?

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

Having another look I think Darnell is filming shaky cam style as he is running/walking from left to right and this footage is only seconds apart from Towner, too bad there isn't a fraction more Towner so we can see the scarfed lady step down. And not only that but based on his speed, Darnel would be in front of the girls when the background monument would be in about the same corresponding position.

Another observation is that in Towner the girls are walking towards the steps and as Darnell arrives you can see the shadow start to appear on the vertical surface of the top step. And if you look at the above Darnell video you can see the middle girl take a step down then as the the scarfed girl approaches she next takes the step down.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vBXkZfrS/3-girls-coming-down-steps.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mDbZn3Zd/aftermath.jpg)

JohnM

Fwiw, I believe those two ladies on the right in the black and white photo by Cabluck are June Dishong and her unnamed work colleague.

They're visible in the Z-film, too, standing to the immediate left of the trio by the Stemmons sign comprised of Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt, and light-blue-headscarf-wearing Sharon Simmons (aka Westbrook's "probably Carol Reed, Gloria Calvery, and me, Karen Westbrook!").

-- MWT  ;)

PS  In a few frames of that Towner clip you can see the light blue color of the headscarf Sharon Simmons is wearing up there on the Pergola Patio.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 03:17:41 PM
"Mytton" isn't the first to suggest that the running bag man could be Darnell, and it's certainly certainly possible that he is, and that he took his footage shortly after the Towner clip, but I doubt it can ever be proven without additional info.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 05, 2019, 03:46:33 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"Mytton" isn't the first to suggest that the running bag man could be Darnell, and it's certainly certainly possible that he is, and that he took his footage shortly after the Towner clip, but I doubt it can ever be proven without additional info.

    I think Unger previously came up with this same Darnell ID speculation. As is usually the case, any unidentified B/W JFK Assassination footage is Immediately credited to Darnell. It is entirely possible this footage is courtesy of someone we know nothing about. Just my opinion but the picture quality of this B/W footage is far superior to what has previously been credited to Darnell.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 05, 2019, 04:08:00 PM

There's no doubt the 3 Women seen in Darnell are Jacob, Holt, and Simmons...You can see their faces in the Darnell close-up clearly and, as Mytton correctly points-out, they do line up with where Darnell would have caught up and filmed them as he is seen doing in Towner...For credible analyzers Simmons' blue scarf and Jacob's white skirt make this a confirmed match with the 3 Women in Zapruder...

The suggestion that the man isn't Darnell and that Darnell is another person, even though if Darnell were another person he would have to be seen in Towner due to the timing of the 3 Women being filmed on the Pergola patio, is preposterous and should be strongly rejected and the suggester of such a ludicrous notion should be censured...The gratuitous doubt that appears to be based on seeking attention rather than honestly arguing evidence should be summarily rejected and that poster should somehow not be allowed to continue his irrational denial that is based on clearly faulty logic in my opinion...There is only one way Darnell could get the footage he did of the 3 Women and that would be if he was the man who is running in order to catch up and film those 3 ladies and that is what you see...To ignore the behavioral aspects of Darnell running to catch up to the ladies is to draw uncredibility on the ignore-er...The suggestion that there isn't enough proof that this is so is a false one and the standard of reasonable proof has been met on this particular evidence...Those of us who don't annoy research websites with irrational demands for levels of proof that only satisfy the compulsive need to push the definitions of evidence in to the silly range of pure sophistry understand that this evidence above should now be considered as having proven the issue and we can now safely say the 3 Women in both Zapruder and Darnell have been PROVEN to be Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...The middle woman was identified by her brother to be Gloria Holt...Unger has admitted in public that his label of June Dishong was wrong and the woman in question is Stella Mae Jacob...

In Cabluck you can see Jacob with her arm around Holt who who was visibly shaken up in Darnell after seeing Kennedy shot...Cabluck is far too long after the shots to allow for Holt to be Gloria Calvery, as Karen Westbrook incorrectly identified...So we can now safely say Tall Woman in Zapruder is Gloria Calvery, as her son Chris told me, and that Sandy Larsen and Graves have correctly identified her on the steps...

We can therefore ignore irrational outliers who only seem to be interested in annoying people by denying obvious evidence in its face in order to demand nutty levels of proof in order to satisfy their sophist compulsions...


 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 05, 2019, 04:10:44 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
    I think Unger previously came up with this same Darnell ID speculation. As is usually the case, any unidentified B/W JFK Assassination footage is Immediately credited to Darnell. It is entirely possible this footage is courtesy of someone we know nothing about. Just my opinion but the picture quality of this B/W footage is far superior to what has previously been credited to Darnell.

Foolish...The clip in question came from Darnell's film can...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 05, 2019, 04:24:38 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Foolish...The clip in question came from Darnell's film can...

     The issue here is the Obvious Conflict in the picture quality/definition between the B/W footage of the 3 ladies vs the film footage credited to Darnell as he traveled down Elm St immediately following the assassination.  Stark difference.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 04:39:19 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There's no doubt the 3 Women seen in Darnell are Jacob, Holt, and Simmons...You can see their faces in the Darnell close-up clearly and, as Mytton correctly points-out, they do line up with where Darnell would have caught up and filmed them as he is seen doing in Towner...For credible analyzers Simmons' blue scarf and Jacob's white skirt make this a confirmed match with the 3 Women in Zapruder...

Westbrook said she was wearing a blue scarf too and that she was standing right there where Doyle claims Simmons is in Zapruder.  And lots of people were wearing white or light-colored skirts.

Quote
The suggestion that the man isn't Darnell and that Darnell is another person, even though if Darnell were another person he would have to be seen in Towner due to the timing of the 3 Women being filmed on the Pergola patio,

Yet another one of Doyle's circular arguments.  Nobody know the timing of the film clip attributed to Darnell.

Quote
In Cabluck you can see Jacob with her arm around Holt who who was visibly shaken up in Darnell after seeing Kennedy shot...

Yet another assumption without evidence.

Quote
Cabluck is far too long after the shots to allow for Holt to be Gloria Calvery, as Karen Westbrook incorrectly identified...

Huh?  First of all, how do you know when Cabluck was taken?  Second of all, what does Cabluck have to do with who is standing where in Zapruder?  Absolutely nothing.

Quote
So we can now safely say Tall Woman in Zapruder is Gloria Calvery, as her son Chris told me,

False.  Chris (born in 1977) allegedly told you that he thought a person in a "Butler" photo looked like his mother.  He told Kamp that he didn't know if Tall Woman in Zapruder was his mother or not.

Quote
and that Sandy Larsen and Graves have correctly identified her on the steps...

Now you're claiming that Chris identified the woman on the steps as his mother too? That's a new one.  Let me guess, another "unrecorded phone call"?

Quote
We can therefore ignore irrational outliers who only seem to be interested in annoying people by denying obvious evidence in its face in order to demand nutty levels of proof in order to satisfy their sophist compulsions...

How about we ignore irrational outliers who constantly lie about what people said and who misrepresent evidence?
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 04:39:52 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Foolish...The clip in question came from Darnell's film can...

...and you know this how?
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 05, 2019, 04:54:04 PM

I am not reading or responding to Iacoletti's posts...I don't think he's posting with honest intent...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 05, 2019, 05:47:26 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
     The issue here is the Obvious Conflict in the picture quality/definition between the B/W footage of the 3 ladies vs the film footage credited to Darnell as he traveled down Elm St immediately following the assassination.  Stark difference.


You are probably looking at a video shot off a TV set with the blurry footage and the straight Darnell film with the 3 Women...

Another total non-point that takes the thread away from the germane subject matter...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 05, 2019, 08:08:31 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I am not reading or responding to Iacoletti's posts...I don't think he's posting with honest intent...

Brian,

It's interesting that Iacoletti waffles between positing that:

1) the gal on the left in the Z-Film Trio isn't Westbrook's "probably Carol Reed," but self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob (inexplicably standing not with her Texas School Book Company colleagues as claimed in her and their FBI statements, but with South-Western Publishing Company's "Gloria Calvery" and "Me, Karen Westbrook!"), and

2) the gal on the left in the Z-Film Trio really is lilly-white Carol Reed, and the reason she looks so dad-gummed dark-complected (compared to the necks of John Templin and fedora-wearing Ernest Brandt) when we can briefly see the side of her face at-and-around Z-Frame-60 is because... well ... the Zapruder Film was "color saturated," and in a very, very selective kind-of-way!

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z060.jpg

LOL

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 05, 2019, 08:53:23 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Brian,

It's interesting that Iacoletti waffles between positing that:

1) the gal on the left in the Z-Film Trio isn't Westbrook's "probably Carol Reed," but self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob (inexplicably standing not with her Texas School Book Company colleagues as claimed in her and their FBI statements, but with South-Western Publishing Company's "Gloria Calvery" and "Me, Karen Westbrook!"), and

2) the gal on the left in the Z-Film Trio really is lilly-white Carol Reed, and the reason she looks so dad-gummed dark-complected (compared to the necks of John Templin and fedora-wearing Ernest Brandt) when we can briefly see the side of her face at-and-around Z-Frame-60 is because... well ... the Zapruder Film was "color saturated," and in a very, very selective kind-of-way!


Bary Kamp is so dumb that he identified Jacob as Jacob on his Prayer Man website but then kept Holt labeled "Gloria Calvery"...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 09:37:10 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I am not reading or responding to Iacoletti's posts...I don't think he's posting with honest intent...

That's ok.  I'm not pointing out your lies and misinformation for your benefit.  You can't even distinguish truth from fiction.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 09:45:47 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
1) the gal on the left in the Z-Film Trio isn't Westbrook's "probably Carol Reed," but self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob (inexplicably standing not with her Texas School Book Company colleagues as claimed in her and their FBI statements, but with South-Western Publishing Company's "Gloria Calvery" and "Me, Karen Westbrook!"), and

Tommy, not surprisingly, doesn't make a distinction between "Gloria Calver[y], there's no doubt in my mind, I remember that" and "I believe that's Carol Ann Reed".

I'm not sure what the "dark complexion" that Tommy imagines that he sees on one person tells anybody anything about who is standing next to her.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 09:46:46 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Bary Kamp is so dumb that he identified Jacob as Jacob on his Prayer Man website but then kept Holt labeled "Gloria Calvery"...

Yeah, because Jacob and Holt were permanently attached at the hips.

 ::)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 05, 2019, 10:03:14 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Bary Kamp is so dumb that he identified Jacob as Jacob on his Prayer Man website but then kept Holt labeled "Gloria Calvery"...

It's quite a challenging juggling act for Kamp, Iacoletti, Giovanna-Zambanini, Unger, et al.

Dark-complected, self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob seems to be the spanner in their works.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 10:08:22 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It's quite a challenging juggling act for Kamp, Iacoletti, Giovanna-Zambanini, Unger, et al.

Dark-complected, self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob seems to be the spanner in their works.

No, not even a little bit.  But dream on.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 05, 2019, 10:08:45 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Yeah, because Jacob and Holt were permanently attached at the hips.

Iacoletti,

Did Texas School Book Company employee Stella Mae Jacob say anything in her FBI statement about watching the motorcade with South-Western Publishing Company employees Gloria Calvery and Karen Westbrook?

Conversely, did Gloria Calvery and Karen Westbrook say anything in their FBI statements about watching the motorcade with Stella Mae Jacob?

No?

Why do you suppose that is, Iacoletti?

Maybe because it didn't happen?

-- MWT   ;)

PS  In your and Westbrook's "Three-Woman Calvery Group," even if that's "uhh ... probably Carol Reed" on the left (looking very dark complected, indeed, in Z-Frame-60 and in a couple of frames around it), where, pray tell, is Karan Hicks?

LOL
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 10:25:38 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Did Texas School Book Company employee Stella Mae Jacob say anything in her FBI statement about watching the motorcade with South-Western Publishing Company employees Gloria Calvery and Karen Westbrook?

Are you getting ready to unleash another multi-page argument that "accompanied by" means "shoulder-to-shoulder"?  Because if you are, I'm not interested.

Believe what you like.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 05, 2019, 10:40:32 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Are you getting ready to unleash another multi-page argument that "accompanied by" means "shoulder-to-shoulder"?  Because if you are, I'm not interested.

Believe what you like.

Iacoletti,

Whereas in the context of TSBD employees walking down Elm Street to watch JFK's motorcade pass by during their lunch hour, you define "accompanied by" to mean within 100 yards of each other?

50 yards?

10 yards?

What?

Whatever ridiculous distance you choose, Iacoletti, if the gal on the left in your and Westbrook's "Gloria Calvery Trio" is (dark-complected) Stella Mae Jacob, can you find her two Texas School Book Company colleagues, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons, anywhere within said distance on either side of Elm Street, "about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass"?

"Nope, because, despite what they said in their FBI statements, they obviously weren't standing on Elm Street during the motorcade and therefore weren't "caught" by Zapruder, or Altgens, or ..."

LOL

And how about Karan Hicks?  Since she's not in your and Westbrook's "Gloria Calvery Trio," where is she?  Didn't she say she was way down on Elm Street, too, or words to that effect?

Where could she possibly be, if she's not one of the four headscarf-wearing gals standing "shoulder-to-shoulder" in the Z-Film?

Hmm?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 11:15:26 PM
What part of "not interested" are you having trouble with?  You're the one who thinks he can identify people from the backs of their heads.  Not me.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 05, 2019, 11:39:53 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You're the one who thinks he can identify people from the backs of their heads.  Not me.


Yet Karen Westbrook can.  And fifty-four years after-the-fact, to boot!

Interesting, though, that her "probably Carol Reed" has a curiously dark-complected face in Z-Frame-59, Z-Frame-60, etc.

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z059.jpg

Guess Stephen "Smilin' 'N Noddin'" Fagin didn't show her those "very selectively color saturated" frames, huh?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 11:42:17 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Yet Karen Westbrook can.  And fifty-four years after-the-fact, to boot!

You're forgetting the part about her actually being there.  Unlike you.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 06, 2019, 12:08:12 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You're forgetting the part about her actually being there.  Unlike you.

Iacoletti,

Yeah, it's amazing how time can distort people's memories, especially when they're with a smilin' n' noddin' host who done plum forgot about showin' her an' the aww-dee-ense Z-Frame 58, Z-Frame 59, Z-Frame 60, etc.

By the way, did ya notice how she froze up when Fagin showed her the Willis-5 photo, and said "... and here's Karen Westbrook"?


-- MWT  ;
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 06, 2019, 12:10:52 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Yeah, it's amazing how time can distort people's memories, especially when they're with a smilin' n' noddin' host, who plum forgot about Z-Frame 58, Z-Frame 59, Z-Frame 60, etc.

By the way, did ya notice how she froze up when Fagin showed her the Willis-5 photo?

Even more amazing:  how the arrogance of somebody who wasn't there and didn't know any of these people can cause him to "see" whatever it is he wants to see.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 06, 2019, 12:24:50 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Even more amazing:  how the arrogance of somebody who wasn't there and didn't know any of these people can cause him to "see" whatever it is he wants to see.

Iacoletti,

Could you please explain to us how your and Westbrook's "Carol Reed" was the only person in Z-Frame 59, etc, whose skin was made to look darker by the film's "color saturation"?
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z059.jpg

Thanks!

-- MWT   ;)


Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 06, 2019, 12:26:44 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Iacoletti,

Could you please explain to us how your and Westbrook's "Carol Reed" (in reality, self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob) was the only person in Z-Frame 59, etc, whose skin was made darker by the film's being "color saturated"?
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z059.jpg

Thanks!

-- MWT   ;)

Or do you now believe that self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob rudely left her two Texas School Book Company colleagues, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons, behind somewhere on Elm Street (mysteriously out of Altgens' and Zapruder's field-of-view but, according to their FBI statements, "about halfway between the TSBD and the Triple Underpass") to join South-Western Publishing Company employees "Gloria Calvery" and Karen Westbrook" (who were probably unknown to Jacob), "near" the Stemmons Sign in Zapruder and Betzner-3?
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 05:29:28 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
After looking at some actual photos from the day and cross referencing this with the actual videos for some clues and this is when I had my Eureka moments.
The running man in the suit would have to be one of the cameramen from the day.
The "cameraman" was running towards where the girls were headed.
The 3 girls were pretty and sad and this creates powerful images.
The Darnell footage shows a shaky cam pan from left to right, which is the direction where the "cameraman" was headed.
If Darnell was stationary the background would be a much smoother pan, it looks like Darnell wasn't really prepared for capturing the girls and the Towner film of the "cameraman" running into position, shows why this would be the case.
I initially asked if the Towner footage was longer we could see the where the scarfed lady was stepping down but that's not necessary because we can clearly see the shadow on the rear of the top step indicating that at least one of the girls was already going down these steps.
In the photo from Dealey Plaza we see that there are two points which require a step down, at these steps or at the footpath but we can see from the relative size of the rear monument and Darnell would have to have a higher vantage point to be able to look down onto the floor inside the monument which simply shows that the girls must be coming down those corresponding top steps.
From Towner we can see that Darnell was in the correct position to capture the 3 women in the right place coming down the right steps.

So in Conclusion on top of the 3 girls being an extremely close match we can position exactly where Darnell was filming from.
It's a Slam Dunk and I would like to see some extraordinary evidence to debunk this Home Run.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmtXSGNt/towner-man-run.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mDbZn3Zd/aftermath.jpg)

Btw the alternate narrative that Darnell just happened to be at those steps in the same position and then captured another 3 people coming down the same stairs who all just happened to match the Towner people is that really a worthy possibility?
There is a time when some people should just admit defeat and move on, just sayin.

JohnM

    Again, the quality of the B/W film footage capturing the 3 ladies is far superior to the Darnell footage of: (1) Bill Newman pounding the ground, (2) the rear of the Press Bus going under the Triple Underpass, and (3) the general going on's behind the Zapruder Pergola.  If the footage of the 3 ladies is indeed the work of Darnell, he either switched film and/or cameras.  I have never heard of Darnell having done this. Once again, Darnell is simply being attached to JFK film footage of unknown origin. This is why this case remains unsolved after 55+ years. Loose ends have been Haphazardly Resolved vs Conclusively Proven.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 06, 2019, 06:04:47 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
    Again, the quality of the B/W film footage capturing the 3 ladies is far superior to the Darnell footage of: (1) Bill Newman pounding the ground, (2) the rear of the Press Bus going under the Triple Underpass, and (3) the general going on's behind the Zapruder Pergola.  If the footage of the 3 ladies is indeed the work of Darnell, he either switched film and/or cameras.  I have never heard of Darnell having done this. Once again, Darnell is simply being attached to JFK film footage of unknown origin. This is why this case remains unsolved after 55+ years. Loose ends have been Haphazardly Resolved vs Conclusively Proven.


The poor quality Darnell footage was filmed off a TV screen...The Darnell clip of the 3 Women is the direct film...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 06:25:09 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The poor quality Darnell footage was filmed off a TV screen...The Darnell clip of the 3 Women is the direct film...

      Please Document your Darnell "TV Screen" Claim. I have Never viewed the 3 Darnell snippets I mentioned above being anything other than blurry. This low definition film footage is Not restricted to Darnell. The Wiegman footage when he is standing stock still, (alleged Hester's, Newman Family, Doris Mumford, etc,) as well as the Couch Film are flat-out Weak. The Z Film and the Bell Film, (filmed by John Q. Public), have far better definition than the Wiegman, Couch, or Darnell films and these 3 guys were top notch network photogs.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 06, 2019, 06:38:05 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
    Again, the quality of the B/W film footage capturing the 3 ladies is far superior to the Darnell footage of: (1) Bill Newman pounding the ground, (2) the rear of the Press Bus going under the Triple Underpass, and (3) the general going on's behind the Zapruder Pergola.  If the footage of the 3 ladies is indeed the work of Darnell, he either switched film and/or cameras.  I have never heard of Darnell having done this. Once again, Darnell is simply being attached to JFK film footage of unknown origin. This is why this case remains unsolved after 55+ years. Loose ends have been Haphazardly Resolved vs Conclusively Proven.

Quote
This is why this case remains unsolved after 55+ years.

What? This case was solved by the end of the first weekend back in 1963 and every commission essentially came to the same conclusion. If it really was someone else, surely after 55+ years one of you Kooks has got to come up with something?

Quote
Loose ends have been Haphazardly Resolved vs Conclusively Proven.

Talk about delusions of grandeur, out of the thousands of pieces of evidence, what have you got exactly besides someone in the crowd who was either Smith or Jones or whatever, how does that possibly affect the verified Mountain of evidence?

Quote
If the footage of the 3 ladies is indeed the work of Darnell, he either switched film and/or cameras.   

How about you post some Darnell videos that you probably saw on Youtube and we can try and work out if they are first generation and decent quality or was the footage filmed directly off TV from an old VHS tape. Honestly, the naivety on display and especially from one of our most experienced members is very disheartening.

Quote
I have never heard of Darnell having done this.

What do you think that Darnell kept in his bag?

(https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/James-Darnell.jpg)

Btw if your post has nothing to do with the thread topic then please take your silly irrelevant grievances elsewhere, thanks in advance! Cheers!

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 06:49:33 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
What? This case was solved by the end of the first weekend back in 1963 and every commission essentially came to the same conclusion. If it really was someone else, surely after 55+ years one of you Kooks has got to come up with something?

Talk about delusions of grandeur, out of the thousands of pieces of evidence, what have you got exactly besides someone in the crowd who was either Smith or Jones or whatever, how does that possibly affect the verified Mountain of evidence?

How about you post some Darnell videos that you probably saw on Youtube and we can try and work out if they are first generation and decent quality or was the footage filmed directly off TV from an old VHS tape. Honestly, the naivety on display and especially from one of our most experienced members is very disheartening.

What do you think that Darnell kept in his bag?

(https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/James-Darnell.jpg)

Btw if your post has nothing to do with the thread topic then please take your silly irrelevant grievances elsewhere, thanks in advance! Cheers!

JohnM

    Why not simply explain Why there is the definition difference in the Darnell footage I cited vs the footage of the 3 Ladies?
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 06, 2019, 06:52:58 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
    Why not simply explain Why there is the definition difference in the Darnell footage I cited vs the footage of the 3 Ladies?

How long is a piece of string?
How about you post the Darnell footage then we can critique it?

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 07:13:50 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How long is a piece of string?
How about you post the Darnell footage then we can critique it?

JohnM

    If You have seen the 3 Darnell film snippets in the same Clarity as the B/W film footage of the 3 Ladies, I would appreciate your providing me the location of such. I am looking forward to seeing those Darnell snippets in the same Clarity as the 3 Ladies film footage.     
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 06, 2019, 07:35:22 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
    If You have seen the 3 Darnell film snippets in the same Clarity as the B/W film footage of the 3 Ladies, I would appreciate your providing me the location of such. I am looking forward to seeing those Darnell snippets in the same Clarity as the 3 Ladies film footage.   

Huh? it's not our problem?

You said that the videos that you have seen are different to other Darnell videos, post the videos that you have seen and then we can discuss why the videos are of a differing quality, your claim your proof!
In fact how dare you make some noob claim based on nothing but your memories and then demand that we prove your fantasies?

Btw why can't you post a video, surely an internet expert who keeps making technical claims can accomplish the much lesser technical challenge of posting a video? Hehehe!

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 06, 2019, 07:36:16 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"Mytton" isn't the first to suggest that the running bag man could be Darnell, and it's certainly certainly possible that he is, and that he took his footage shortly after the Towner clip, but I doubt it can ever be proven without additional info.

After looking at some actual photos from the day and cross referencing this with the actual videos for some clues and this is when I had my Eureka moments.
The running man in the suit would have to be one of the cameramen from the day.
The "cameraman" was running towards where the girls were headed.
The 3 girls were pretty and sad and this creates powerful images.
The Darnell footage shows a shaky cam pan from left to right, which is the direction where the "cameraman" was headed.
If Darnell was stationary the background would be a much smoother pan, it looks like Darnell wasn't really prepared for capturing the girls and the Towner film of the "cameraman" running into position, shows why this would be the case.
I initially asked if the Towner footage was longer we could see the where the scarfed lady was stepping down but that's not necessary because we can clearly see the shadow on the rear of the top step indicating that at least one of the girls was already going down these steps.
In the photo from Dealey Plaza we see that there are two points which require a step down, at these steps or at the footpath but we can see from the relative size of the rear monument and Darnell would have to have a higher vantage point to be able to look down onto the floor inside the monument which simply shows that the girls must be coming down those corresponding top steps.
From Towner we can see that Darnell was in the correct position to capture the 3 women in the right place coming down the right steps.

So in Conclusion on top of the 3 girls being an extremely close match we can position exactly where Darnell was filming from.
It's a Slam Dunk and I would like to see some extraordinary evidence to debunk this Home Run.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmtXSGNt/towner-man-run.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mDbZn3Zd/aftermath.jpg)

Btw the alternate narrative that Darnell just happened to be at those steps in the same position and then captured another 3 people coming down the same stairs who all just happened to match the Towner people is that really a worthy possibility?
There is a time when some people should just admit defeat and move on, just sayin.

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 07:40:28 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Huh? it's not our problem?

You said that the videos that you have seen are different to other Darnell videos, post the videos that you have seen and then we can discuss why the videos are of a differing quality, your claim your proof!
In fact how dare you make some noob claim based on nothing but your memories and then demand that we prove your fantasies?

Btw why can't you post a video, surely an internet expert who keeps making technical claims can accomplish the much lesser technical challenge of posting a video? Hehehe!

JohnM

     Come on John. We have both been around this subject long enough to know what is out there. If You had  the video, or knew of its' whereabouts,  you would have jammed it down my throat Immediately. Thanks for verifying what we both know is true.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Bill Chapman on June 06, 2019, 07:41:53 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
What do you think that Darnell kept in his bag?
JohnM

His lunch ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 07:44:21 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
After looking at some actual photos from the day and cross referencing this with the actual videos for some clues and this is when I had my Eureka moments.
The running man in the suit would have to be one of the cameramen from the day.
The "cameraman" was running towards where the girls were headed.
The 3 girls were pretty and sad and this creates powerful images.
The Darnell footage shows a shaky cam pan from left to right, which is the direction where the "cameraman" was headed.
If Darnell was stationary the background would be a much smoother pan, it looks like Darnell wasn't really prepared for capturing the girls and the Towner film of the "cameraman" running into position, shows why this would be the case.
I initially asked if the Towner footage was longer we could see the where the scarfed lady was stepping down but that's not necessary because we can clearly see the shadow on the rear of the top step indicating that at least one of the girls was already going down these steps.
In the photo from Dealey Plaza we see that there are two points which require a step down, at these steps or at the footpath but we can see from the relative size of the rear monument and Darnell would have to have a higher vantage point to be able to look down onto the floor inside the monument which simply shows that the girls must be coming down those corresponding top steps.
From Towner we can see that Darnell was in the correct position to capture the 3 women in the right place coming down the right steps.

So in Conclusion on top of the 3 girls being an extremely close match we can position exactly where Darnell was filming from.
It's a Slam Dunk and I would like to see some extraordinary evidence to debunk this Home Run.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmtXSGNt/towner-man-run.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mDbZn3Zd/aftermath.jpg)

Btw the alternate narrative that Darnell just happened to be at those steps in the same position and then captured another 3 people coming down the same stairs who all just happened to match the Towner people is that really a worthy possibility?
There is a time when some people should just admit defeat and move on, just sayin.

JohnM

    You continue attempting to avoid addressing WHY there is such a disparity in the Darnell snippets vs the clarity of 3 Ladies footage.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 06, 2019, 08:06:05 AM
I can't prove this is Jimmy but I've not heard anyone doubt it yet, anyway on the left, newspaper or perhaps motorcade schedule in his right jacket pocket, no sign of a shoulder strap and none in Hughes either unless I'm mistakener(haven't checked I just don't remember seeing one).
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/jackson-bob-on-main.jpg)
Same pocket has something white near it in Towner.

The Sitzman being interviewed footage by the shelter was credited to Jimmy by Trask himself, why IDK but could be part guesswork, in that regard, I guess Mack let him view some under the counter stuff from time to time.
I also guess that what Sitzman's told the reporter or cop garnered Jimmy's attention and that of some girls nearby, that's what upset "Holt" again and off she went with Jimmy in tow.
Darnell wasn't shooting random scenes, he was doing reaction work, like with the Newman fist pounding, how long do you think Bill was hitting his fist on the ground? 5 seconds?  Try it yourself, five hits seems about right, well, Jimmy caught it, that is a great point and shoot catch,  that's what he was trained to do and waiting for, something, anything.  98% of his footage seems to be reaction shots.  The one under the spotlight here has his DNA all over it.  It's OJ at Bundy.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 04:32:26 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I can't prove this is Jimmy but I've not heard anyone doubt it yet, anyway on the left, newspaper or perhaps motorcade schedule in his right jacket pocket, no sign of a shoulder strap and none in Hughes either unless I'm mistakener(haven't checked I just don't remember seeing one).
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/jackson-bob-on-main.jpg)
Same pocket has something white near it in Towner.

The Sitzman being interviewed footage by the shelter was credited to Jimmy by Trask himself, why IDK but could be part guesswork, in that regard, I guess Mack let him view some under the counter stuff from time to time.
I also guess that what Sitzman's told the reporter or cop garnered Jimmy's attention and that of some girls nearby, that's what upset "Holt" again and off she went with Jimmy in tow.
Darnell wasn't shooting random scenes, he was doing reaction work, like with the Newman fist pounding, how long do you think Bill was hitting his fist on the ground? 5 seconds?  Try it yourself, five hits seems about right, well, Jimmy caught it, that is a great point and shoot catch,  that's what he was trained to do and waiting for, something, anything.  98% of his footage seems to be reaction shots.  The one under the spotlight here has his DNA all over it.  It's OJ at Bundy.

    The seating schematic I have seen for Camera Car #3 shows Darnell sitting on the extreme Driver's Side of the rear seat. The camera guy shown above is seated on the Passenger/Shotgun Side of the back seat. Again, if someone has an explanation regarding the detail difference between: (1) the Mediocre Definition of the Darnell footage showing Bill Newman pounding the ground, and (2) the Clear Definition of the 3 Ladies, I would be interested in hearing that story.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 06, 2019, 04:34:45 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
      Please Document your Darnell "TV Screen" Claim. I have Never viewed the 3 Darnell snippets I mentioned above being anything other than blurry. This low definition film footage is Not restricted to Darnell. The Wiegman footage when he is standing stock still, (alleged Hester's, Newman Family, Doris Mumford, etc,) as well as the Couch Film are flat-out Weak. The Z Film and the Bell Film, (filmed by John Q. Public), have far better definition than the Wiegman, Couch, or Darnell films and these 3 guys were top notch network photogs.


Don't play dumb Royell...Your sources for the blurry footage are the same as mine and are the videos on You-Tube...

The problem with a lot of these forums is persons who lack the requisite skill sets to attempt evidence analysis impose themselves and protect their ignorance before practicing honest investigation...If you look closely the blurry segments of Darnell are due to the source video being from an original that was shot from a TV screen...I'm afraid Mr Storing that if you possessed better research skills you would have realized this already just by asking yourself why is the Pergola footage much clearer...Instead, like many lacking researchers, you waste board space arguing your wrong point...We are discussing your ignorance now that has hijacked the thread instead of the important evidence in the identification of the 3 Women...You also uncredibly ignore that the 3 Women are close to the camera...

Right now the other two forums are perfect examples of that Peter Principle inversion and are protecting an incompetent majority at the expense of good research instead of simply practicing the objective research they pretend to espouse...And they're not embarrassed by that...They are Mickey Mouse hacks that live by the standard that if you can't beat em ban em...

Royell - Does the "CPTV" logo in the bottom of the screen in the Darnell Film You-Tube video give you a hint that maybe the video was shot off a TV screen?... - Just sayin...Let us know if you have any other prominently public embarrassing shooting of your own foot off you want to do...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 04:57:51 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Don't play dumb Royell...Your sources for the blurry footage are the same as mine and are the videos on You-Tube...

The problem with a lot of these forums is persons who lack the requisite skill sets to attempt evidence analysis impose themselves and protect their ignorance before practicing honest investigation...If you look closely the blurry segments of Darnell are due to the source video being from an original that was shot from a TV screen...I'm afraid Mr Storing that if you possessed better research skills you would have realized this already just by asking yourself why is the Pergola footage much clearer...Instead, like many lacking researchers, you waste board space arguing your wrong point...We are discussing your ignorance now that has hijacked the thread instead of the important evidence in the identification of the 3 Women...You also uncredibly ignore that the 3 Women are close to the camera...

Right now the other two forums are perfect examples of that Peter Principle inversion and are protecting an incompetent majority at the expense of good research instead of simply practicing the objective research they pretend to espouse...And they're not embarrassed by that...They are Mickey Mouse hacks that live by the standard that if you can't beat em ban em...

Royell - Does the "CPTV" logo in the bottom of the screen in the Darnell Film You-Tube video give you a hint that maybe the video was shot off a TV screen?... - Just sayin...Let us know if you have any other prominently public embarrassing shooting of your own foot off you want to do...

     You previously stated that the Darnell images were taken from a "TV Screen". Your validation for this is "looking closely". This would therefore make what you previously stated as being a Fact = Nothing more than Your Opinion. Once again, you have attempted to pass off Your Opinion as being Fact.  BS:   
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 06, 2019, 05:14:59 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
     You previously stated that the Darnell images were taken from a "TV Screen". Your validation for this is "looking closely". This would therefore make what you previously stated as being a Fact = Nothing more than Your Opinion. Once again, you have attempted to pass off Your Opinion as being Fact.  BS:

Storing,

Do you agree that the three women in "Darnell" are the same three women we can see walking across the Pergola Patio in the Towner film, and who were also "captured" in the Zapruder film as they stood "next to" the Stemmons sign?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 06, 2019, 05:38:00 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
     You previously stated that the Darnell images were taken from a "TV Screen". Your validation for this is "looking closely". This would therefore make what you previously stated as being a Fact = Nothing more than Your Opinion. Once again, you have attempted to pass off Your Opinion as being Fact.  BS:


So you are saying you are going to defiantly ignore the clearly-seen "CPTV" logo in the bottom right screen and double down on your strongly-emphasized ignorance?...Like Mytton said, the blurry Darnell clips are from TV shots transferred to blurry VHS...The "CPTV" is Connecticut Public Television...Why would you further damage your credibility by furthering your gaffe?...They are probably deliberately blurry to avoid copyright problems...

You should know this by simply examining the clear clip of the 3 Women on the Knoll and asking yourself why it is clear?...Instead, like Cinque, you go right to the fantasy manipulation instead of the obvious...

Some people just don't know how to admit wrongness...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 06, 2019, 05:50:31 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You should know this [What?] by simply examining the clear clip of the Three Women On The Knoll and asking yourself why it is clear?

Which "clear clip" of Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons "on the Knoll" are you referring to, Brian?

Darnell?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 06, 2019, 06:01:22 PM


(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 06, 2019, 06:03:37 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

Is that the one that Storing is claiming is suspiciously "blurry"?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 06, 2019, 06:21:19 PM

I suggest you read the thread to understand what is being discussed before commenting Thomas...

Storing tried to claim that there was something wrong with the Darnell source material because the majority was blurry...He said that because this Pergola clip was clear that meant there was something fishy with the rest of the Darnell film source material...Only his obvious lack of research skill caused him to not realize the blurry Darnell material was blurry because it was originally sourced from a video taken by poor equipment off a TV screen...You can see proof of that in the fact the Darnell video seen on You-Tube has a prominent "CPTV" (Connecticut Public Television) logo in the bottom right screen...It was probably sourced from a poor quality video camera shooting a TV screen and recording on low quality VHS tape...

Like Iacoletti, instead of admitting this obvious gaffe Storing chooses to further defy common sense and ignore the obvious...

Really, it is time people realize they are dealing with a high-skilled researcher in myself and give me the respect I deserve...
 

 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 06, 2019, 06:43:06 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I suggest you read the thread to understand what is being discussed before commenting Thomas...

Storing tried to claim that there was something wrong with the Darnell source material because the majority was blurry...He said that because this Pergola clip was clear that meant there was something fishy with the rest of the Darnell film source material...Only his obvious lack of research skill caused him to not realize the blurry Darnell material was blurry because it was originally sourced from a video taken by poor equipment off a TV screen...You can see proof of that in the fact the Darnell video seen on You-Tube has a prominent "CPTV" (Connecticut Public Television) logo in the bottom right screen...It was probably sourced from a poor quality video camera shooting a TV screen and recording on low quality VHS tape...

Like Iacoletti, instead of admitting this obvious gaffe Storing chooses to further defy common sense and ignore the obvious...

Really, it is time people realize they are dealing with a high-skilled researcher in myself and give me the respect I deserve...
 

I did read it, but your writing is so crummy and ambiguous, sometimes, that it's hard to follow ...

-- MWT  ;)

PS  Did you discover Stella Mae Jacob and Gloria Holt (and, by association, Sharon Simmons) in the Z-Film and in Darnell?

Was it you, Oh Great Researcher, who first posited that Gloria Calvery was the big, tall, black-blouse and black headscarf-wearing gal in Zapruder and in Betzner-3, and who co-discovered (with Bob Prudhomme and Sandy Larsen) Gloria Calvery's standing on the TSBS steps in Couch-Darnell?
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 06, 2019, 06:55:27 PM


More pokes...

Royell understood it and took the untruthful way out...

The only on-topic discussion at this point is how proof that the 3 Women in both Zapruder and Darnell are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob forces Frazier to be describing Stanton as being Prayer Man...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Ray Mitcham on June 06, 2019, 07:00:31 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login



Really, it is time people realize they are dealing with a high-skilled researcher in myself and give me the respect I deserve...
 

I believe you are already getting the respect you deserve. :D
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 06, 2019, 07:03:34 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The only on-topic discussion at this point is how proof that the 3 Women in both Zapruder and Darnell are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob forces Frazier to be describing Stanton as being Prayer Man...

Forces?

Does it also "force" the conclusion that there were two Oswalds in the TSBD at the time of the assassination, and that one or both of them were put there by the evil, evil, evil CIA?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 07:15:48 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

So you are saying you are going to defiantly ignore the clearly-seen "CPTV" logo in the bottom right screen and double down on your strongly-emphasized ignorance?...Like Mytton said, the blurry Darnell clips are from TV shots transferred to blurry VHS...The "CPTV" is Connecticut Public Television...Why would you further damage your credibility by furthering your gaffe?...They are probably deliberately blurry to avoid copyright problems...

You should know this by simply examining the clear clip of the 3 Women on the Knoll and asking yourself why it is clear?...Instead, like Cinque, you go right to the fantasy manipulation instead of the obvious...

Some people just don't know how to admit wrongness...

    What I am telling You is that I have Never seen Darnell snippets that were anything other than Blurry/low def. This includes the Darnell footage in front of the TSBD, Bill Newman pounding the ground, the Press Bus going under the Triple Underpass, the activity behind the Pergola, and the recently discovered Darnell snippet of Houston St with the 2 Press Buses on it,  the Pool area across from the TSBD & the Camera Cars traveling down Elm St. ALL of Darnell's film footage is low def and some of it came Directly from the Major Networks Video Vaults for use in the Specials they did. If your Blanket Claim of ALL the Blurry Darnell footage is due to, "TV SHOTS transferred to blurry VHS" were true, WHY is The 3 Ladies film footage Crystal Clear including the background activity behind them? Again, ALL the Darnell footage is Low Definition/Blurry vs The 3 Ladies footage being crystal clear. The definition difference is Stark. 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 06, 2019, 07:33:31 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
    What I am telling You is that I have Never seen Darnell snippets that were anything other than Blurry/low def. This includes the Darnell footage in front of the TSBD, Bill Newman pounding the ground, the Press Bus going under the Triple Underpass, the activity behind the Pergola, and the recently discovered Darnell snippet of Houston St with the 2 Press Buses on it,  the Pool area across from the TSBD & the Camera Cars traveling down Elm St. ALL of Darnell's film footage is low def and some of it came Directly from the Major Networks Video Vaults for use in the Specials they did. If your Blanket Claim of ALL the Blurry Darnell footage is due to, "TV SHOTS transferred to blurry VHS" were true, WHY is the 3 Ladies film footage Crystal Clear including the background activity behind them? Again, ALL the Darnell footage is Low Definition/Blurry vs the 3 Ladies footage being crystal clear. The definition difference is Stark.


Because (duh) the 3 Women clip was from a source that wasn't taken off the same TV screen as the other material...

How many times are you going to ignore the "CPTV" logo on the blurry Darnell footage while still pretending you are arguing sincerely?...Did you notice it isn't on the clear segment?...

Maybe Moricet could answer that if he can tear himself away from the Prayer Man dummies...

Unger?...

This problem is caused by NBC and lack of access to the original film...The community is also dysfunctional and doesn't communicate what it has seen at the 6th Floor Museum...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 07:35:47 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I suggest you read the thread to understand what is being discussed before commenting Thomas...

Storing tried to claim that there was something wrong with the Darnell source material because the majority was blurry...He said that because this Pergola clip was clear that meant there was something fishy with the rest of the Darnell film source material...Only his obvious lack of research skill caused him to not realize the blurry Darnell material was blurry because it was originally sourced from a video taken by poor equipment off a TV screen...You can see proof of that in the fact the Darnell video seen on You-Tube has a prominent "CPTV" (Connecticut Public Television) logo in the bottom right screen...It was probably sourced from a poor quality video camera shooting a TV screen and recording on low quality VHS tape...

Like Iacoletti, instead of admitting this obvious gaffe Storing chooses to further defy common sense and ignore the obvious...

Really, it is time people realize they are dealing with a high-skilled researcher in myself and give me the respect I deserve...
 

    I Never claimed the babble above. What I said was that based on the Definition Difference between the footage, Darnell being credited as having filmed The 3 Ladies is probably Incorrect. I never said anything was, "Wrong with the Darnell source material" or "something fishy with the rest of the Darnell source material".  My concern is with Darnell being conveniently credited for having filmed The 3 Ladies footage, an Unknown Photog/Eye Witness probably has been lost. Such was the case with the mis-identification of Doris Mumford. She was an eyewitness to the JFK Assassination from her standing position at the Elm St curb in close proximity to the Newman Family. Mumford was never questioned regarding what she saw due to her being mis-identified for close to 40 years. By the time this Boner was corrected, Mumford had passed away. Remember, whomever the Babushka Lady may have been, she did have a camera and she did have it up to her face as the JFK Limo passed by her standing position on Elm St. If you do Not believe Beverly Oliver was the Babushka Lady, then we have another Lost Eye Witness. Also, if you do Not believe that Louie Steven Witt was the Umbrella Man, we have yet another Unknown Witness to the JFK Assassination.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 07:37:37 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Is that the one that Storing is claiming is suspiciously "blurry"?

-- MWT  ;)

   The Clear 3 Ladies footage above looks Nothing like ALL of the blurry footage credited to Darnell. Night and Day by comparison.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 06, 2019, 07:40:20 PM


He says while asking us to take him seriously while he ignores Darnell being seen running up to the 3 Women in Towner and then having that same view seen in the film of the 3 Women...

Like Iacoletti you fail to tell us who that is if it isn't Darnell?...

If we find the original film the 3 Women clip will be included in the Darnell film can...

Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 06, 2019, 07:41:30 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I believe you are already getting the respect you deserve. :D


It is untruthful to not admit I've proven Sarah Stanton is Prayer Man...

Get back to us when you can actually discuss the evidence Ray...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Ray Mitcham on June 06, 2019, 08:43:24 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

It is untruthful to not admit I've proven Sarah Stanton is Prayer Man...

Get back to us when you can actually discuss the evidence Ray...

You wouldn't know evidence if it hit you on the head with  a baseball bat.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 09:19:45 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

He says while asking us to take him seriously while he ignores Darnell being seen running up to the 3 Women in Towner and then having that same view seen in the film of the 3 Women...

Like Iacoletti you fail to tell us who that is if it isn't Darnell?...

If we find the original film the 3 Women clip will be included in the Darnell film can...

     You act as if Darnell's film footage has been copied until the cows come home. In fact, we seldom if ever see Darnell's footage included in any of the multitude of JFK Specials, VHS, & DVD presentations of the JFK Assassination. On top of that, for a while now there has been a BOLO for ANY Darnell Film Footage. Darnell film footage is rare. I do Not know who that guy is that is sprinting across the Knoll or whether he had a camera or Not. I do Know the quality of the Known Darnell Film Footage is Not even close to what we are seeing in The 3 Ladies footage. Claiming that footage is Darnell's is almost as outlandish as claiming The 3 Ladies footage was filmed by Wiegman. The definition difference is stark.  If that guy running across the Knoll did film The 3 Ladies, his ID would be a Revelation and possibly a valuable witness as to the events of that day.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 06, 2019, 09:46:47 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
     You act as if Darnell's film footage has been copied until the cows come home. In fact, we seldom if ever see Darnell's footage included in any of the multitude of JFK Specials, VHS, & DVD presentations of the JFK Assassination. On top of that, for a while now there has been a BOLO for ANY Darnell Film Footage. Darnell film footage is rare. I do Not know who that guy is that is sprinting across the Knoll or whether he had a camera or Not. I do Know the quality of the Known Darnell Film Footage is Not even close to what we are seeing in The 3 Ladies footage. Claiming that footage is Darnell's is almost as outlandish as claiming The 3 Ladies footage was filmed by Wiegman. The definition difference is stark.  If that guy running across the Knoll did film The 3 Ladies, his ID would be a Revelation and possibly a valuable witness as to the events of that day.


This is lack of research skill...If the guy is running in order to catch up to people he obviously considers to be a good camera shot and those person appear in a camera shot in Darnell then that is enough evidence to determine that the running man in Towner is Darnell and that he is running in order to catch up to the 3 Women and the result is what we see in Darnell...

This is the 4th time you've answered and it is the 4th time you contemptuously ignored the "CPTV" logo in the blurry Darnell footage...

I would bet that if we ever get the original Darnell film it will all be similar in quality to the Darnell clip of the 3 Women...

Maybe Hackerott could help us with the source of the clear Darnell clip of the 3 Women...Then maybe Royell will stop arguing the short end of the stick...

 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 10:15:28 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

This is lack of research skill...If the guy is running in order to catch up to people he obviously considers to be a good camera shot and those person appear in a camera shot in Darnell then that is enough evidence to determine that the running man in Towner is Darnell and that he is running in order to catch up to the 3 Women and the result is what we see in Darnell...

This is the 4th time you've answered and it is the 4th time you contemptuously ignored the "CPTV" logo in the blurry Darnell footage...

I would bet that if we ever get the original Darnell film it will all be similar in quality to the Darnell clip of the 3 Women...

Maybe Hackerott could help us with the source of the clear Darnell clip of the 3 Women...Then maybe Royell will stop arguing the short end of the stick...

    Have You EVER seen ANY Darnell Film Clip from 11/22/63 that is as Clear as The 3 Ladies film clip? The answer is a Resounding NO. The only way Darnell could have filmed those 3 Ladies in that Clarity would have been if he switched/used different Film and/or a different Camera. If you know of Darnell switching film/cameras roughly 30 minutes after the Kill Shot, I would be interested in that information. I have never heard that he or any of the other cameramen inside Dealey Plaza did that in that extremely short and hectic roughly 30 minute time frame. Your "CPTV" thing is moot due to ALL Other Darnell snippets being of the Same Rough Visual Quality. The Sole Outlier/Sore Thumb would be The 3 Ladies snippet. I believe the reason The 3 Ladies Film stands out is for the simple reason that it was: (1) filmed by a Different Cameraman, (2) using Different Film, (3) in a Different Camera. It might be ground breaking to know Who this currently Unknown Cameraman/Assassination Eyewitness was.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 06, 2019, 11:09:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The 3 Ladies Film stands out is for the simple reason that it was: (1) filmed by a Different Cameraman [than James Darnell], (2) using Different Film [than what James Darnell was using in the camera that he used to film the three ladies], (3) in a Different Camera [than James Darnell had with him]. It might be ground breaking to know Who this currently Unknown Cameraman/Assassination Eyewitness was.

Other than James Darnell, there was no cameraman who filmed "The Three Ladies" (Jacob, Holt and Simmons) after the assassination, Ralph I mean Royell.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 07, 2019, 12:06:49 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Other than James Darnell, there was no cameraman who filmed "The Three Ladies" (Jacob, Holt and Simmons) after the assassination, Ralph I mean Royell.

-- MWT   ;)

     Upon checking through The Bible of Assassination Images = "Pictures Of The Pain" by Richard Trask, there is absolutely No Mention of Darnell having filmed 3 Ladies in front of the Pergola or any mention of Darnell filming Anything in front of the Pergola area roughly 10 minutes following the Kill Shot.  I continue waiting for an explanation regarding the Detail Contrast between ALL the fuzzy Darnell film footage vs the Clarity of The 3 Ladies film footage.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 07, 2019, 01:11:11 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
     Upon checking through The Bible of Assassination Images = "Pictures Of The Pain" by Richard Trask, there is absolutely No Mention of Darnell having filmed 3 Ladies in front of the Pergola or any mention of Darnell filming Anything in front of the Pergola area roughly 10 minutes following the Kill Shot.  I continue waiting for an explanation regarding the Detail Contrast between ALL the fuzzy Darnell film footage vs the Clarity of The 3 Ladies film footage.

Dear Ralph I mean Royell,

Well, obviously Trask missed that, didn't he?

But we, right here at the JFK Assassination Forum, discovered it!

-- MWT   ;)

PS  So who does your great expert have filming dark-complected Jacob, crying Holt, and headscarf-wearing Simmons walking together after the assassination?

Nobody?


Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 07, 2019, 01:19:16 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Dear Royell,

Obviously Trask missed that, didn't he.

But we, right here at the JFK Assassination Forum, discovered it!

-- MWT   ;)

PS  So who does your great expert have filming dark-complected Jacob, crying Holt, and headscarf-wearing Simmons walking together after the assassination?


Nobody?

     The Self Proclaimed "discoveries" made on this Forum continues reaching epidemic proportions. And then You have the gall to shame Trask. Know your place.     
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 07, 2019, 01:23:27 AM
Storing wrote:

Upon checking through The Bible of Assassination Images = "Pictures Of The Pain" by Richard Trask, there is absolutely No Mention of Darnell having filmed 3 Ladies in front of the Pergola or any mention of Darnell filming Anything in front of the Pergola area roughly 10 minutes following the Kill Shot.  I continue waiting for an explanation regarding the Detail Contrast between ALL the fuzzy Darnell film footage vs the Clarity of The 3 Ladies film footage.


My reply:

Well, Trask missed that one, didn't he?

But we, right here at the JFK Assassination Forum, discovered it!

-- MWT   ;)

PS  So, who does your great JFK assassination photo and film expert have filming dark-complected Jacob, crying Holt, and headscarf-wearing Simmons walking together after the assassination?

Nobody?

.......

Bumped for Storing
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 07, 2019, 06:35:06 AM

Royell is ignoring that he doesn't know what the source was for the rough footage...The most likely explanation is the original Darnell film was copied on primitive video recorders when they first came out...I would bet off a TV screen...Royell is just pulling his change of camera speculation out of thin air and inserting it...But my explanation makes much more sense...The process was common and it was known as Kinescope filming...

I'll bet when we ever get the original the rough part will be just as clear as the 3 Women part...

Royell is ignorant because he gives no thought to the fact the Darnell film is heavily guarded by NBC under copy right...So it makes perfect sense that the only reason we are seeing this version of Darnell on You-Tube is because it is a primitive video that was taken on ancient technology in the 1960's and is too rough for NBC to worry about copy rights...

Somehow someone found a better copy from another process at a different time for the 3 Women segment...

To not ask Hackerott where he got the 3 Women clip is dysfunction...

Royell is arguing against the obvious in my opinion...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 07, 2019, 04:19:56 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Royell is ignoring that he doesn't know what the source was for the rough footage...The most likely explanation is the original Darnell film was copied on primitive video recorders when they first came out...I would bet off a TV screen...Royell is just pulling his change of camera speculation out of thin air and inserting it...But my explanation makes much more sense...The process was common and it was known as Kinescope filming...

I'll bet when we ever get the original the rough part will be just as clear as the 3 Women part...

Royell is ignorant because he gives no thought to the fact the Darnell film is heavily guarded by NBC under copy right...So it makes perfect sense that the only reason we are seeing this version of Darnell on You-Tube is because it is a primitive video that was taken on ancient technology in the 1960's and is too rough for NBC to worry about copy rights...

Somehow someone found a better copy from another process at a different time for the 3 Women segment...

To not ask Hackerott where he got the 3 Women clip is dysfunction...

Royell is arguing against the obvious in my opinion...

       Your, "SOMEHOW someone found a better copy from another process at a different time for the 3 Women segment..." signals you're Now waving the White Flag regarding the definition of these 2 film snippets Conflicting with each other. This is progress. I find it Hilarious that you seem to think that Darnell's Film Footage has been copied up the ying-yang when in reality it has been MIA for 50+ years.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 07, 2019, 06:01:42 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
       Your, "SOMEHOW someone found a better copy from another process at a different time for the 3 Women segment..." signals you're Now waving the White Flag regarding the definition of these 2 film snippets Conflicting with each other. This is progress. I find it Hilarious that you seem to think that Darnell's Film Footage has been copied up the ying-yang when in reality it has been MIA for 50+ years.


You don't seem to understand what I am saying...If we could break the dysfunction of the JFK research community and ask Moricet to post the history of that clip we could find out the provenance...Like many researchers, Royell, you don't respond to what was written or its most germane points but respond to your own claims in your answer instead of answering what was said...If you paid more honest attention to what was being said instead of trying to shift the conversation back in to a useless loop of your own false claims you would realize the clip of the 3 Women has an "MSNBC" logo...Since NBC is the parent company to the original Darnell copy right it is very possible that NBC has the original and accessed it in their showing of this clip, which in turn would give a more skilled researcher who wasn't only interested in repeating his defective claims the idea that this is proof that the Darnell original is clearer than the copies on You-Tube and clearer exactly for the reasons I explained...So what you wrote above is specious goobledigook compared to the accurate information I discussed that you avoided by once again returning to your faulty self-references...

 Your answer here idiotically doesn't answer the valid point that the available copies on You-Tube were obviously taken from the original at some point...We could call Connecticut Public TV and ask them if they have a record of when they broadcast that footage and how they copied it at the time...It is kinda dumb to call a video anyone can see on You-Tube "missing in action" or ignore all the qualifying information I discussed...Obviously you are ignoring that information because you can't discuss the truth in it and are seeking to evade it...Your answer above is not submittable because it shows you don't comprehend what is being said...The copies you see on You-Tube are blurry because they were probably copied on primitive equipment in the 1960's and done so off a TV screen...The 3 Women clip was taken by NBC from its archive and used by its subsidiary MSNBC...It was copied on modern equipment and is therefore clearer for a very understandable reason...Don't play dumb...

Let me know when you can intelligently answer what was actually written Royell...

Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 07, 2019, 07:11:48 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You don't seem to understand what I am saying...If we could break the dysfunction of the JFK research community and ask Moricet to post the history of that clip we could find out the provenance...Like many researchers, Royell, you don't respond to what was written or its most germane points but respond to your own claims in your answer instead of answering what was said...If you paid more honest attention to what was being said instead of trying to shift the conversation back in to a useless loop of your own false claims you would realize the clip of the 3 Women has an "MSNBC" logo...Since NBC is the parent company to the original Darnell copy right it is very possible that NBC has the original and accessed it in their showing of this clip, which in turn would give a more skilled researcher who wasn't only interested in repeating his defective claims the idea that this is proof that the Darnell original is clearer than the copies on You-Tube and clearer exactly for the reasons I explained...So what you wrote above is specious goobledigook compared to the accurate information I discussed that you avoided by once again returning to your faulty self-references...

 Your answer here idiotically doesn't answer the valid point that the available copies on You-Tube were obviously taken from the original at some point...We could call Connecticut Public TV and ask them if they have a record of when they broadcast that footage and how they copied it at the time...It is kinda dumb to call a video anyone can see on You-Tube "missing in action" or ignore all the qualifying information I discussed...Obviously you are ignoring that information because you can't discuss the truth in it and are seeking to evade it...Your answer above is not submittable because it shows you don't comprehend what is being said...The copies you see on You-Tube are blurry because they were probably copied on primitive equipment in the 1960's and done so off a TV screen...The 3 Women clip was taken by NBC from its archive and used by its subsidiary MSNBC...It was copied on modern equipment and is therefore clearer for a very understandable reason...Don't play dumb...

Let me know when you can intelligently answer what was actually written Royell...

    The "MSNBC" film snippet you are Now referencing was captured at a different point in time. We have No Proof those Images were filmed by the same person that filmed these 3 Ladies when they were physically at a position higher Up the Knoll.  Do Not forget these 3 Ladies are being filmed while responding to a person that is out-of-sight on their right hand side. THIS additional person, (whomever that was), may have had a movie camera and was also filming these 3 Ladies as he conversed with them. There could have been 2 movie cameras filming these 3 ladies Simultaneously.  Also, film snippets of the JFK Assassination done by different  photogs are frequently spliced together for use in JFK Specials, DVD Presentations, etc. This is why it is difficult to differentiate between Darnell and Couch  footage captured in front of the TSBD. Groden has also spliced together JFK Assassination filmed segments captured by various JFK Assassination photogs.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 07, 2019, 07:24:07 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
    The "MSNBC" film snippet you are Now referencing was captured at a different point in time. We have No Proof those Images were filmed by the same person that filmed these 3 Ladies when they were physically at a position higher Up the Knoll.  Do Not forget these 3 Ladies are being filmed while responding to a person that is out-of-sight on their right hand side. THIS additional person, (whomever that was), may have had a movie camera and was also filming these 3 Ladies as he conversed with them. There could have been 2 movie cameras filming these 3 ladies Simultaneously.  Also, film snippets of the JFK Assassination done by different  photogs are frequently spliced together for use in JFK Specials, DVD Presentations, etc. This is why it is difficult to differentiate between Darnell and Couch  footage captured in front of the TSBD. Groden has also spliced together JFK Assassination filmed segments captured by various JFK Assassination photogs.


   Don't play dumb Royell...You've been given enough information that the original film source for the 3 Women was the Darnell film can in NBC's possession that MSNBC went to to get that clip...

Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 07, 2019, 09:19:35 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

   Don't play dumb Royell...You've been given enough information that the original film source for the 3 Women was the Darnell film can in NBC's possession that MSNBC went to to get that clip...

   Nobody at any time has verified that the 3 Women film snippet came out of the, "Darnell film can" as you continually proclaim. YOU initiated the "Darnell film can" hokum and have endlessly repeated that tripe in the hope it would cavalierly be accepted as a Fact. Such is your MO. Make stuff up to support a position you have taken and then endlessly go on-and-on about it like it is a Fact. Total  BS:
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 07, 2019, 09:36:08 PM

You are ignoring the fact MSNBC is a subsidiary of NBC that has the rights to the original Darnell film...If we could ask MSNBC where they got that snippet it would be a faster and shorter route than your evasive verbiage...

You are ignoring the point...MSNBC broadcast that clip because it has access to the original NBC Darnell film in its archives...Darnell was NBC so therefore that serves as tracing that you are ignoring and answering with excuses...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: James Hackerott on June 07, 2019, 09:42:07 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Royell is ignoring that he doesn't know what the source was for the rough footage...The most likely explanation is the original Darnell film was copied on primitive video recorders when they first came out...I would bet off a TV screen...Royell is just pulling his change of camera speculation out of thin air and inserting it...But my explanation makes much more sense...The process was common and it was known as Kinescope filming...

I'll bet when we ever get the original the rough part will be just as clear as the 3 Women part...

Royell is ignorant because he gives no thought to the fact the Darnell film is heavily guarded by NBC under copy right...So it makes perfect sense that the only reason we are seeing this version of Darnell on You-Tube is because it is a primitive video that was taken on ancient technology in the 1960's and is too rough for NBC to worry about copy rights...

Somehow someone found a better copy from another process at a different time for the 3 Women segment...

To not ask Hackerott where he got the 3 Women clip is dysfunction...

Royell is arguing against the obvious in my opinion...


This was posted in the More Darnell Film... thread.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1901.msg51437.html#msg51437

Denis, thank you for your reply.
After two or three campaigns to locate that clip I finally found it this week on a video CD (320x240 and highly compressed). The source was a MSNBC special around the 40th anniversary, and titled ?The Day That Changed America?. Beware-there are several specials over the years with similar titles. I think it was re-broadcast at a later date as ?Celebrities Remember?.
James
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 07, 2019, 09:47:19 PM
The man running to catch the 3 Women by the Pergola Patio has the same clothes that Darnell is seen wearing at the police station and is carrying his camera under his right arm just like Darnell is seen doing at the police station...

Royell:  Sometime around the 40th anniversary MSNBC went to the NBC archives and accessed the Darnell film for that clip of the 3 Women...The reason it is much clearer than the other stock footage is because MSNBC used 2003 technology to copy that clip directly from the original...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 07, 2019, 10:32:39 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The man running to catch the 3 Women by the Pergola Patio has the same clothes that Darnell is seen wearing at the police station and is carrying his camera under his right arm just like Darnell is seen doing at the police station...

Royell:  Sometime around the 40th anniversary MSNBC went to the NBC archives and accessed the Darnell film for that clip of the 3 Women...The reason it is much clearer than the other stock footage is because MSNBC used 2003 technology to copy that clip directly from the original...

I don't think Royell knows how this all works, he's probably thinking that Darnell was carrying some funky digital camcorder?

What Darnell captured was on 16mm film which would be extremely clear but had to be transferred onto video back at the station.

(https://i.postimg.cc/02SK9T7r/James-Darnell.jpg)

Over the years the video quality of these Telecine machines increases as the video capture technology improves.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nzKw8RTW/telecine.jpg)

The initial video archives of the Darnell film came from primitive 1963 tv station telecine equipment and this ntsc transfer is what would have been seen in early documentaries then somewhere along the line the original 16mm film was located which was then transferred with a modern telecine machine with vastly superior optics, hence the quality improvement.

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 07, 2019, 11:14:11 PM
The good thing is this is evidence NBC has the original Darnell film in its archives...

And a clear version at that...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 07, 2019, 11:53:51 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The man running to catch the 3 Women by the Pergola Patio has the same clothes that Darnell is seen wearing at the police station and is carrying his camera under his right arm just like Darnell is seen doing at the police station...

Royell:  Sometime around the 40th anniversary MSNBC went to the NBC archives and accessed the Darnell film for that clip of the 3 Women...The reason it is much clearer than the other stock footage is because MSNBC used 2003 technology to copy that clip directly from the original...

    Eyeball the difference in the Definition of the 3 Women film footage when they are Atop the Knoll, vs the Definition of the "MSNBC" film footage of the 3 Women when they are at the Bottom portion of the Knoll. Plus, The 3 Women have covered ground going Down the Knoll which is Not present on Any of this film footage. There is a Gap in the filming of these 3 Women. If 1 Camera Man had simply Stopped filming for whatever reason, why are we seeing a Definition Difference in the footage at the Top of the Knoll vs the footage at the Bottom of the Knoll?  If NBC/MSNBC had run this entire film snippet through their modern day Tech Machinery to clean  it up, why are we seeing a Definition Difference between the opening segment when the 3 Women are at the Top portion of the Knoll vs when the 3 Women are at the bottom of the Knoll?  Just my opinion, but I believe: (1) we are looking at 2 different film snippets, (2) filmed by 2 different Camera MEN, (3) Using 2 different Cameras/Film, (4) Producing Images of contrasting Definition. At some point, these 2 film snippets of the 3 Women were simply spliced together. Remember, the 3 Women are responding to someone standing out of sight to their Right. This could easily be the 2nd Camera Man. 2 Camera Men, shooting the same 3 Women at different points in time as they traveled across the Knoll. 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 08, 2019, 01:06:30 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
    Eyeball the difference in the Definition of the 3 Women film footage when they are Atop the Knoll, vs the Definition of the "MSNBC" film footage of the 3 Women when they are at the Bottom portion of the Knoll. Plus, The 3 Women have covered ground going Down the Knoll which is Not present on Any of this film footage. There is a Gap in the filming of these 3 Women. If 1 Camera Man had simply Stopped filming for whatever reason, why are we seeing a Definition Difference in the footage at the Top of the Knoll vs the footage at the Bottom of the Knoll?  If NBC/MSNBC had run this entire film snippet through their modern day Tech Machinery to clean  it up, why are we seeing a Definition Difference between the opening segment when the 3 Women are at the Top portion of the Knoll vs when the 3 Women are at the bottom of the Knoll?  Just my opinion, but I believe: (1) we are looking at 2 different film snippets, (2) filmed by 2 different Camera MEN, (3) Using 2 different Cameras/Film, (4) Producing Images of contrasting Definition. At some point, these 2 film snippets of the 3 Women were simply spliced together. Remember, the 3 Women are responding to someone standing out of sight to their Right. This could easily be the 2nd Camera Man. 2 Camera Men, shooting the same 3 Women at different points in time as they traveled across the Knoll.

Quote
Eyeball the difference in the Definition of the 3 Women film footage when they are Atop the Knoll, vs the Definition of the "MSNBC" film footage of the 3 Women when they are at the Bottom portion of the Knoll.
.

Since you refuse or can't support your ideas with evidence, here's the two gifs.

(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

And the answer is immediately obvious, the dimensions of the videos show that one is 4:3 showing that the footage is from analog NTSC 480p and, the other is 16:9 indicating a digital release of most probably 1080p, so your comparison makes no sense, it's like comparing Gumby on an old cathode ray tv to the high definition of the latest Hollywood Blockbuster on a FHD TV, it's chalk and cheese.
The MSNBC footage looks like it came from the original archive and the higher definition film has come from a newer HD Transfer.

JohnM
 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 08, 2019, 01:24:45 AM

I think the answer is the less crisp clip of the 3 Women is from an unknown internet source that could have used less clear technology...The clear version is from "Bandicam.com" - which is an internet screen shot video recording software...

The more crisp is a straight modern copy of the Darnell film from the NBC archive using the best modern equipment...

This is a very good sign that  1) NBC has the original... 2) It is very clear and will show Stanton in better detail...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on June 08, 2019, 03:39:38 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I don't think Royell knows how this all works, he's probably thinking that Darnell was carrying some funky digital camcorder?

What Darnell captured was on 16mm film which would be extremely clear but had to be transferred onto video back at the station.

(https://i.postimg.cc/02SK9T7r/James-Darnell.jpg)

Over the years the video quality of these Telecine machines increases as the video capture technology improves.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nzKw8RTW/telecine.jpg)

Thank you, John..... QED.... Checkmate, Albert.  Go back to the rock whence you came under from.

The initial video archives of the Darnell film came from primitive 1963 tv station telecine equipment and this ntsc transfer is what would have been seen in early documentaries then somewhere along the line the original 16mm film was located which was then transferred with a modern telecine machine with vastly superior optics, hence the quality improvement.

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 08, 2019, 05:06:34 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
.

Since you refuse or can't support your ideas with evidence, here's the two gifs.

(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

And the answer is immediately obvious, the dimensions of the videos show that one is 4:3 showing that the footage is from analog NTSC 480p and, the other is 16:9 indicating a digital release of most probably 1080p, so your comparison makes no sense, it's like comparing Gumby on an old cathode ray tv to the high definition of the latest Hollywood Blockbuster on a FHD TV, it's chalk and cheese.
The MSNBC footage looks like it came from the original archive and the higher definition film has come from a newer HD Transfer.

JohnM

         In addition to the Definition Difference, it is obvious that these 2 film snippets were spliced/put together at some point due to the "MSNBC" logo NOT being present on the opening segment when the 3 Women were positioned at the Top of the Knoll. You originally claimed ALL of this material was run through the Hi Tech equipment.  The reason the "MSNBC" footage is of a lower quality is because Darnell did work for NBC, and they probably did work with Darnell footage out of the NBC Archive for the MSNBC Special.  ALL of the Darnell film footage we know of IS of Low Quality which matches the low quality of the "MSNBC" tagged snippet. The "MSNBC" logo being absent from that opening segment is a dead give-a-away as to there being 2 photogs. (#2 probably being the person standing out-of-sight on the (R) of the 3 Women). Darnell worked for NBC and if NBC had access to the the footage of the 3 Women at the bottom of the Knoll, they Certainly would have had access to the footage of the 3 Women at the top of the Knoll which was filmed only seconds beforehand.   
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 08, 2019, 05:37:19 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
         In addition to the Definition Difference, it is obvious that these 2 film snippets were spliced/put together at some point due to the "MSNBC" logo NOT being present on the opening segment when the 3 Women were positioned at the Top of the Knoll.


Rubbish!

The films were not spliced together...They were obviously one continuous film that was taken by Darnell after he caught up to the 3 Women and started filming them...The MSNBC logo is on one of them because that production simply chose that clip...In no way does that evidence two clips being spliced together...

You're just ignoring what is being said Royell...The clip with the MSNBC logo is less clear because it has a different background than the clearer clip...It was run through different equipment that's all...But it comes from the same Darnell film reel...



 
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You originally claimed ALL of this material was run through the Hi Tech equipment.  The reason the "MSNBC" footage is of a lower quality is because Darnell did work for NBC, and they probably did work with Darnell footage out of the NBC Archive for the MSNBC Special.  ALL of the Darnell film footage we know of IS of Low Quality which matches the low quality of the "MSNBC" tagged snippet.


Rubbish!

If you look at the other CPTV segments they are of noticeably lower quality than the MSNBC logo clip...So, no, the MSNBC clip does not match the other CPTV material...If you use competent analysis skill you will see the MSNBC clip is clearer than the remainder of the previously-known Darnell footage...The reasons why were already explained and have to do with the CPTV era footage originating from primitive 1960's copying/transfer equipment...If you had better skill you would realize the fact the clip has an MSNBC logo tells you was most-likely transferred during a time period of better technology and that's why it is slightly clearer...



You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The "MSNBC" logo being absent from that opening segment is a dead give-a-away as to this snippet being the work product of different Photog. (Probably the person standing out-of-sight on the (R) of the 3 Women). Darnell worked for NBC and if NBC had access to the the footage of the 3 Women at the bottom of the Knoll, they Certainly would have had access to the footage of the 3 Women at the top of the Knoll which was filmed only seconds beforehand.   


He says while publicly ignoring the "Bandicam.com" video screen shot transfer software he's already been informed of that probably cleaned up the image through digital tech...

If I am reading your post correctly you are also now admitting the film stock came from the Jimmy Darnell film at the NBC archives (which means Darnell filmed it)...Royell presents no evidence that because the clip of the 3 Women at the Pergola doesn't have any NBC logo that that means it isn't NBC footage...That's just him saying so but the fact it doesn't have any NBC stamp doesn't prove it isn't NBC Darnell footage...

Royell also commits the foolish mistake of not realizing the MSNBC footage with the logo is further down the Knoll and after the footage from the Pergola patio...It is silly of him to not realize if he is admitting the further down the Knoll footage is Darnell then by logic and reasoning the footage before it is also Darnell...Royell forgets the guy with the same clothes as Darnell who holds his camera by his right arm is seen running towards the 3 Women up by the Pergola patio in Towner and is the one who obviously filmed the clip with no logo...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 08, 2019, 09:32:10 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Rubbish!

The films were not spliced together...They were obviously one continuous film that was taken by Darnell after he caught up to the 3 Women and started filming them...The MSNBC logo is on one of them because that production simply chose that clip...In no way does that evidence two clips being spliced together...

You're just ignoring what is being said Royell...The clip with the MSNBC logo is less clear because it has a different background than the clearer clip...It was run through different equipment that's all...But it comes from the same Darnell film reel...



 

Rubbish!

If you look at the other CPTV segments they are of noticeably lower quality than the MSNBC logo clip...So, no, the MSNBC clip does not match the other CPTV material...If you use competent analysis skill you will see the MSNBC clip is clearer than the remainder of the previously-known Darnell footage...The reasons why were already explained and have to do with the CPTV era footage originating from primitive 1960's copying/transfer equipment...If you had better skill you would realize the fact the clip has an MSNBC logo tells you was most-likely transferred during a time period of better technology and that's why it is slightly clearer...




He says while publicly ignoring the "Bandicam.com" video screen shot transfer software he's already been informed of that probably cleaned up the image through digital tech...

If I am reading your post correctly you are also now admitting the film stock came from the Jimmy Darnell film at the NBC archives (which means Darnell filmed it)...Royell presents no evidence that because the clip of the 3 Women at the Pergola doesn't have any NBC logo that that means it isn't NBC footage...That's just him saying so but the fact it doesn't have any NBC stamp doesn't prove it isn't NBC Darnell footage...

Royell also commits the foolish mistake of not realizing the MSNBC footage with the logo is further down the Knoll and after the footage from the Pergola patio...It is silly of him to not realize if he is admitting the further down the Knoll footage is Darnell then by logic and reasoning the footage before it is also Darnell...Royell forgets the guy with the same clothes as Darnell who holds his camera by his right arm is seen running towards the 3 Women up by the Pergola patio in Towner and is the one who obviously filmed the clip with no logo...

    If as you claim  MSNBC used their Hi Tech gadgetry to Upgrade the Darnell Footage/Snippet they used in the JFK Special, WHY does that snippet continue to mirror the other Low Def footage that Darnell shot that day?  Groden has made a living out of splicing together JFK Assassination footage from various photogs. That is exactly what we have here with the 3 Women. The Major Loss here is Not knowing Who that other camera person was. That is a valuable eyewitness to what went on immediately following the Kill Shot.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 08, 2019, 09:46:11 PM
I have already explained that the clear-ness of the clip without the logo is almost certainly due to the issuer using the "Bandicam.com" digital enhancement software...I have mentioned that several times now and you ignored it...

It is less than honest of you to ignore the fact the clip with the logo is taken further down the Knoll as the 3 Women progressed eastward from the Pergola patio on the Grassy Knoll...You didn't answer my point that if you acknowledge that this segment was taken by Darnell like you did, that the segment just before it was also taken by Darnell because he was seen running to catch up to the 3 Women in order to film them...It doesn't make sense that the earlier clip would be taken by a person you can't see in Towner even though you would have to be able to see that mystery camera man according to the timing...

Royell, you know as well as I do that there is no other camera man and that both clips were taken by Darnell...You would quickly find that out if you tried to publish that clip...The people who would sue you would be NBC because you copied their Darnell film without permission...

Anyone can read this thread and see you avoid answering the most important information...You seem to think you have a right to ignore the Bandicam point in order to offer an inferior, regressive point...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 08, 2019, 09:57:07 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
         In addition to the Definition Difference, it is obvious that these 2 film snippets were spliced/put together at some point due to the "MSNBC" logo NOT being present on the opening segment when the 3 Women were positioned at the Top of the Knoll. You originally claimed ALL of this material was run through the Hi Tech equipment.  The reason the "MSNBC" footage is of a lower quality is because Darnell did work for NBC, and they probably did work with Darnell footage out of the NBC Archive for the MSNBC Special.  ALL of the Darnell film footage we know of IS of Low Quality which matches the low quality of the "MSNBC" tagged snippet. The "MSNBC" logo being absent from that opening segment is a dead give-a-away as to there being 2 photogs. (#2 probably being the person standing out-of-sight on the (R) of the 3 Women). Darnell worked for NBC and if NBC had access to the the footage of the 3 Women at the bottom of the Knoll, they Certainly would have had access to the footage of the 3 Women at the top of the Knoll which was filmed only seconds beforehand.   

Storing,

If there was a second, mysto photographer, he and Darnell must have have been very busy indeed trying to elbow each other out of the way.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 08, 2019, 10:04:24 PM


What Royell writes doesn't make sense...Even though we can see Darnell running to catch the 3 Women for the non-logo clip by the Pergola patio Royell is contending a mystery camera man, whom we must be able to see if he is there due to the timing, is the one who took that shot and then further east on the Grassy Knoll Darnell took the clip with the logo...That defies simple common sense and it is obvious one single camera man filmed the 3 Women because he saw them and it drew his interest...

The clarity issue is probably due to the internet "Bandicam.com" technology using digital enhancement to clarify the Darnell original... 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 08, 2019, 10:14:39 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Storing,

If there was a second, mysto photographer, he and Darnell must have have been very busy indeed trying to elbow each other out of the way.

-- MWT   ;)

   We KNOW the 3 Women are responding to someone off camera to their (R).  This could easily be the same person that filmed them at the Top of the Knoll.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 08, 2019, 10:17:27 PM


So you are saying you have a right to ignore the "Bandicam.com" technology?


Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 08, 2019, 10:18:42 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
   We KNOW the 3 Women are responding to someone off camera to their (R).  This could easily be the same person that filmed them at the Top of the Knoll.


Fool...You already claimed Darnell filmed them at the bottom of the Knoll in the clip with the logo...(That's why it had the MSNBC logo)...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 08, 2019, 10:30:56 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

What Royell writes doesn't make sense...Even though we can see Darnell running to catch the 3 Women for the non-logo clip by the Pergola patio Royell is contending a mystery camera man, whom we must be able to see if he is there due to the timing, is the one who took that shot and then further east on the Grassy Knoll Darnell took the clip with the logo...That defies simple common sense and it is obvious one single camera man filmed the 3 Women because he saw them and it drew his interest...

The clarity issue is probably due to the internet "Bandicam.com" technology using digital enhancement to clarify the Darnell original...

    NOBODY knows for a Fact that the man running across the Knoll as seen on the Towner Film = Darnell.  STOP once again poisoning the JFK Fact Well with what is only your Opinion. And as usual, You make an assumption = the 3 Women did Not STOP while walking across/down the Knoll or divert from the travel path we see them taking on the Towner Film. 2 different people using different cameras/film would explain the Detail Difference in the 2 snippets, as well as the Un-Filmed Time Gap between the 2 snippets. The 3 Women possibly Stopping/Diverting their travel path at some point would also explain this Time Gap. Whatever the topic might be, You consistently make Knee-Jerk Assumptions and then try to pass them off as being Fact. This hinders solving this 55+ year old case along with making All of your posts Skip worthy.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 08, 2019, 10:42:18 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Fool...You already claimed Darnell filmed them at the bottom of the Knoll in the clip with the logo...(That's why it had the MSNBC logo)...

    You are obviously confused. 1 person filming the 3 Ladies at the Top of the Knoll (Higher Definition film snippet) and Darnell "MSNBC" (Lower Definition film snippet) filming them at the Bottom of the Knoll. Again, there is an obvious Time Gap between the 2 film snippets of the 3 Women. If 1 person were filming these 3 women as they allegedly walked non-stop from the Top of the Knoll to the bottom of the Knoll, (a Very short distance), why is there a Stoppage/Time Gap between the 2 Short film snippets?  Answer = 2 different camera people positioned in 2 different locations on the Knoll. Just my opinion, but I think whomever filmed the 3 Women at the Top of the Knoll stopped filming, began talking with them, maybe even taking notes. It would have been very difficult for him to film the 3 Women while talking with them and walking with them, (maybe down hill). Therefore, he stopped filming. At some point after the 3 Women reached the bottom of the Knoll, Darnell was positioned there and at that point in time he filmed them. 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 08, 2019, 10:53:15 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
    NOBODY knows for a Fact that the man running across the Knoll as seen on the Towner Film = Darnell.  STOP once again poisoning the JFK Fact Well with what is only your Opinion. And as usual, You make an assumption = the 3 Women did Not STOP while walking across/down the Knoll or divert from the travel path we see them taking on the Towner Film. 2 different people using different cameras/film would explain the Detail Difference in the 2 snippets, as well as the Un-Filmed Time Gap between the 2 snippets. The 3 Women possibly Stopping/Diverting their travel path at some point would also explain this Time Gap. Whatever the topic might be, You consistently make Knee-Jerk Assumptions and then try to pass them off as being Fact. This hinders solving this 55+ year old case along with making All of your posts Skip worthy.


Is that why you continue to avoid discussing the "Bandicam.com" logo in the clear clip?...Search for Bandicam and you will find it is a site for screen shots of videos...The kind of site that would have a modern digital enhancement feature that would clean up video and make it sharper...I don't know why you refuse to address this because it seems to me that it explains the reason why the non-logo clip is clearer than the MSNBC one...You are publicly dodging in front of everyone reading this a very reasonable explanation for why the non-logo clip is clearer....And why a second camera man isn't necessary in order to explain the difference in sharpness between the two clips...

Your point about the 3 Women not stopping doesn't make sense to me nor does it change anything I wrote...

You yourself already wrote that Darnell could have taken his finger off the trigger and not filmed for that gap...No second camera man needed...

You are ignoring my point that you claimed the clip with the MSNBC logo that shows the 3 Women further east on the Grassy Knoll was taken by Darnell because it has the NBC logo provenance...I said that clip was AFTER the clip with no logo because it is the same women as they progressed eastward on the Grassy Knoll from the Pergola patio...For your claim to be correct would require the man we see running to not be Darnell but be the second camera man instead because he was the one who filmed the first clip by the Pergola patio that doesn't have the logo...OK, you can claim that but I say the man who was running had the same dark suit as Darnell and tucked his camera under his right arm like Darnell was seen doing at the police station...I also say the clip itself shows the same identical subject matter which means it was almost certainly filmed by the same person...Once one clip is identified as having NBC provenance that means the other one does too...

You are very foolish Royell because as soon as we get access to the original Darnell film both clips will be in the Darnell film can and will be part of that one same continuous film...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 09, 2019, 01:19:32 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If 1 person were filming these 3 women as they allegedly walked non-stop from the Top of the Knoll to the bottom of the Knoll, (a Very short distance), why is there a Stoppage/Time Gap between the 2 Short film snippets?  Answer = 2 different camera people positioned in 2 different locations on the Knoll. Just my opinion.....

Besides the cameraman who was moving into position to capture the 3 women walking down the stairs where is the other cameraman?

(https://i.postimg.cc/tJQQb1FS/Towner-near-last-frame.jpg)

Btw why all these excessively long posts which are just the same idea repeated a dozen ways?

JohnM
 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 09, 2019, 01:46:55 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The good thing is this is evidence NBC has the original Darnell film in its archives...

And a clear version at that...

How do you come to that conclusion?

It's most likely that MSNBC just licenced a short piece of film for some documentary and I'd say the source was the original transfer. There is another more complete Darnell film on Youtube which is from Connecticut Public Television and also appears to come from the original transfer.

(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2TqvqwM/darnell-cptv.jpg)

The more important question is, who encoded and uploaded the bandicam version and since it has no identification, where did it come?

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: James Hackerott on June 09, 2019, 03:04:32 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How do you come to that conclusion?

It's most likely that MSNBC just licenced a short piece of film for some documentary and I'd say the source was the original transfer. There is another more complete Darnell film on Youtube which is from Connecticut Public Television and also appears to come from the original transfer.

(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2TqvqwM/darnell-cptv.jpg)

The more important question is, who encoded and uploaded the bandicam version and since it has no identification, where did it come?

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

JohnM
The Bandicam video, as well as the Bandicam video of the Marilyn Sitzman interview, were both present at such clarity in Oliver Stone's JFK. I did not supply those scenes to anyone.
James
 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 09, 2019, 03:55:57 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Besides the cameraman who was moving into position to capture the 3 women walking down the stairs where is the other cameraman?

(https://i.postimg.cc/tJQQb1FS/Towner-near-last-frame.jpg)

Btw why all these excessively long posts which are just the same idea repeated a dozen ways?

JohnM

     I believe You are making the same mistake that your buddy Doyle is making. You are assuming the 3 Women moved Non-Stop from the Top of the Knoll to the Bottom of the Knoll. Also, the still frame you posted only shows us up to the Light Pole on the (R). I believe the low grade definition of the footage showing the 3 Women at the Bottom of the Knoll & the general film footage credited to Darnell compare nicely. Since we know that Darnell was filming in the train yard area Behind the Pergola, it is easy to envision him circling Around the rear of the Pergola toward the TSBD and then heading down to Elm St/Dealey Plaza. I believe Darnell then saw these distraught 3 Women heading Toward him at the bottom of the Knoll and at that point he began filming them. 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 09, 2019, 04:21:54 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The Bandicam video, as well as the Bandicam video of the Marilyn Sitzman interview, were both present at such clarity in Oliver Stone's JFK. I did not supply those scenes to anyone.
James

Thanks James, that explains why the short snippet was so clear, had no station watermark and is presented in a wider format.
For the JFK movie they also got hold of a high res copy of Zapruder, so it makes sense editing in a higher res Darnell which would also add authenticity but too bad the JFK film is filled with so many quick cuts, so whatever is there is over in a blink of an eye.

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 09, 2019, 03:38:42 PM

Obviously Royell is in denial that the man running up is Darnell...Darnell may have stopped filming in order to scribble the names of Simmons, Holt, and Jacob and then kept filming further east on the Knoll...Royell refuses to discuss the Bandicam technology being responsible for the clarification of the non-logo clip...He is refusing because it interferes with this specious pet theory that the clarity indicates a second camera and camera man...Again, I'm confident the man seen running up to the 3 Women is obviously Darnell and both clips are part of one continuous film clip...If we ever get the original Darnell film reel both clips will be on it...You would find this out without getting the original film by trying to publish that clip...You would quickly be sued by NBC for publishing the Darnell film without their permission...Of course Royell will ignore this and post an evasive comment on why there were two camera men...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 09, 2019, 03:50:45 PM
I said:

"The good thing is this is evidence NBC has the original Darnell film in its archives...

And a clear version at that..."

Mytton responded:

"How do you come to that conclusion?

It's most likely that MSNBC just licenced a short piece of film for some documentary and I'd say the source was the original transfer. There is another more complete Darnell film on Youtube which is from Connecticut Public Television and also appears to come from the original transfer."


Me:

I may have made a mistake there and the clarity is not due to the original Darnell film being crisp but is instead due to the Bandicam technology cleaning up the blurry-ness with digital technology...If you have good analysis/observation skills you will see there are signs that the original transfer copy was used in the clip with the MSNBC logo because it is slightly clearer than the CPTV clips...The reason for this is the original transfer copy was copied on to the MSNBC clip by 2003 technology that made the final clip slightly clearer using the same stock footage...In this case you would be right and the original transfer footage would be the source of both clips and therefore the original may not be available...(which is bad news for those trying to get the original for purposes of trying to get a better scan of Prayer Man)... Royell is avoiding the Bandicam technology being the source of the clarity because it spoils his silly second camera man theory...

In any case we both agree that the original Darnell film is almost certainly sharper simply due to the Kinescope or Telecine equipment that the original film was transferred on in 1963 being so primitive...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 09, 2019, 04:16:31 PM

Gilbride and I tried to get the original Darnell film...I called Groden and he led us to the last known location in Queens Library New York City circa the 1970's...The original film had been re-acquired by the NBC Archive since then...Trying to approach NBC is a daunting task that is designed by rule to discourage individuals like researchers from even trying...NBC is a big powerful institution and it doesn't have time for anyone except big monied interests willing to pay licensing fees...

Last fall I finally got a response from NBC on acquiring the original film...The e-mail they sent me was basically a rules list for eligibility that can obviously only be met by a production seeking to describe their work in detail to NBC and pay the appropriate fees...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 09, 2019, 04:30:54 PM
FYI guys, Trask credited the Sitzman clip in front of the North pergola to Darnell in "That Day in Dallas" not POTP.  How do I know this?  Robin Unger posted scans from that book a few years back.  So it's more of an appendix than the bible itself.  You don't think he lost his faith after POTP do you?  'Course not.

And have you seen Groden's copy of Darnell from his old DVD?  It's awfully bad.
Lot's of better gear came to light around 2013 did it not?*  I imagine the networks went back to the archives to supply the demand for "modern documentary"(/sigh) makers and news media requests.
They charge a pretty penny for this archive stuff and the more Darnell gets recognised for the work he did the more the price will go up.  That CPTV filmmaker probably paid peanuts for that because it was still just uncredited stock footage at that time.

*In one of those anniversary programs there is a nice clip from Wiegman(I think) at LF, he sees Jack moving toward the fence and runs ahead of him, puts his back to the fence then starts filming JFK approach him and reach out to shake hands with the gathered crowd, anyway, I liked it.

PS.  Jimmy was asking them girls what was up.  They're talking to him.  So you have to wonder, how can someone so on the ball wait for twenty plus seconds after the shots to start filming and then forget to film the windows of the building where the man sat next to him just told everyone(allegedly) the shots came from?

(https://i.gifer.com/6Vwb.gif)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 09, 2019, 04:58:08 PM
Barry:   You might know what POTP means but others don't...

If Darnell filmed Sitzman at the concrete block then that was him running up to the 3 Women according to logistics...Films Sitzman and then runs to catch up to the 3 Women...

Case closed...

Now we can await a post from Royell that ignores we have Darnell filming Sitzman at the concrete block, and then clip #1, and then Darnell confirmed as filming clip #2...Which logistically has Darnell at the first point on a straight line...Then the next clip is in the middle of that same straight line...And the final end clip, that is confirmed as Darnell, is at the end of that straight line...Watch now how Royell ignores that the logistics force Darnell to have also taken that middle clip and try to work that second camera man in...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 09, 2019, 10:27:54 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictures_of_the_Pain
10+ years of research, around $80 on ebay today which is less than I paid, just don't expect great assassination images, it's more about the stories behind the POTP and what see in them, people, timing etc.  Chapters about the first and third camera cars were probably the most interesting to me.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 09, 2019, 11:04:37 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictures_of_the_Pain
10+ years of research, around $80 on ebay today which is less than I paid, just don't expect great assassination images, it's more about the stories behind the POTP and what see in them, people, timing etc.  Chapters about the first and third camera cars were probably the most interesting to me.

    I do Not have "That Day In Dallas" so I would need to see how Trask worded the Sitzman interview. I am curious as to the wording that was used due to Darnell having arranged/conducted numerous interviews immediately after the assassination. I do have Trask's "POTP" and he makes absolutely no mention of Darnell FILMING Sitzman in that book.
   You mention being interested in the Camera Cars info in Trask's "POTP". Personally, I thought the revelation in that book that Wiegman saw/ran into SA Lem Johns UP at the Top of the Knoll to be groundbreaking info. SA Lem Johns claimed he jumped out of the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car and ran up Elm St toward LBJ's convertible when he heard shot(s) being fired. SA Johns also claimed he physically Never left Elm St. Wiegman seeing Johns Up atop the Knoll is significant as not one single JFK Assassination image whether it be still photo or film footage shows SA Johns at any time on Elm St. Also, there is Not 1 single Elm St eyewitness that Ever claimed to see SA Lem Johns: (1) jumping out of the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car, or (2) Running up Elm St toward the LBJ Convertible, or (3) Standing anywhere on Elm St at Any point that day. Of course, there are numerous eyewitnesses that claim to have seen an unidentified SS Man in the parking lot/Knoll area immediately following the assassination. These eyewitness accounts include Dallas PD.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 09, 2019, 11:27:55 PM
Sitzman being interviewed at the Pedestal is labeled:

"Darnell Frame ( Sitzman at pedestal being interviewed )"

And is designated as originating from the "Darnell Gallery"...

The image is very clear...

(I told you Royell would do his best to fight the obvious and avoid the evidence)...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 09, 2019, 11:32:55 PM
Like I just told Brian(re:Frazier), revelations aren't groundbreaking until they are proven and IMO either Lems has been erased from the evidence or he got back in his own car almost immeadiatly.  The only other alternative is that he ran past Zapruder and out of sight and I can find no reason for him to do that even if shots came from the knoll, simple because there is no evidence that people from his position in the street were in the slightest bit interested in that area at that time.
 
Trask never interviewed Sitzman about the footage, it's just part of a process during his ongoing research, he makes new connections as hopefully we all do/will.  Little things that add to the whole.
Darnell and the rest of the reaction gang get pushed out of the carpark/RRY after around 4-5mins.  Trask was probably trying to track him after that point and has given the Sitzman footage to him because it's his best educated guess.  Either that or that same clip came on a reel that had Darnell footage on it IRDK but it's very rarely as easy as that right?
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 10, 2019, 03:03:49 PM


He says while ignoring that the 3 Women being Simmons, Holt, and Jacob is now proven...The reason the MSNBC footage has the NBC logo is because it was from the Darnell film...Obviously Darnell was filming the 3 Women before in the clip from the Pergola patio because we can see him running up to catch up to the subjects that caught his interest...Simmons, Holt, and Jacob were Darnell's subjects and they were filmed by him...He tracked along with them from Pergola to further east on the Grassy Knoll...

Most internet regulars are pet theorists who are willing to tie up good research for years trying to force their theory rather than just acknowledging the obvious...In my phone call with Walt Brown he agreed that most researchers don't want to solve the assassination...They just want to argue over-detailed pet theory BS forever...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 10, 2019, 08:38:02 PM
I believe SA Lems Johns did Not get back inside the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car. Johns eventually arrived at AF1 AFTER LBJ had been there awhile.. If Johns had jumped back inside that Follow-Up Car he would have arrived at AF1 when LBJ did. (Johns was assigned to the LBJ SS Detail). I think Johns arrived at AF1 when Jackie did. To me, there is No Way SA Lem Johns could have jumped out of that vehicle in the middle of Elm St and run up the street toward the LBJ convertible and Not be captured on Any assassination images or be sighted by Any of the eyewitnesses inside Dealey Plaza. That's just flat-out Unbelievable. Wiegman filmed JFK all the time so he would know the different SS Agents. I believe Wiegman's story of seeing SA Lem Johns at the Top of the Knoll.
That's why Trask's wording regarding the Sitzman Interview is Important with regard to the Factual Record. Trask very well could have used his own connect-the-dots thought process. He also did this at times in "POTP". Like I said before, it is Not unusual for assassination film snippets filmed by different camera men to be Spliced together for JFK Specials or VHS/DVD presentations.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 10, 2019, 08:43:23 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
   
     That's why Trask's wording regarding the Sitzman Interview is Important with regard to the Factual Record. Trask very well could have used his own connect-the-dots thought process. He also did this at times in "POTP". Like I said before, it is Not unusual for assassination film snippets filmed by different camera men to be Spliced together.


It is much more likely that Trask designated Darnell because it was Darnell...Royell conveniently ignores that we can see Darnell running from the Sitzman pedestal towards the Pergola patio in order to catch up to the 3 Women in clip #1...Darnell then proceeded to catch up to the 3 Women and then filmed them in clips # 1 & 2...Pretty simple really...

Moricet said we should go to the 6th Floor Museum and view their copy of Darnell that is now available to the public...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 11, 2019, 10:30:23 AM
1) Towner.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmtXSGNt/towner-man-run.gif)

2) Darnell from JFK the Movie.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

3) Darnell from MSNBC
(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)

Pink=3 women. Red=Darnell.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JT2t00B/Dealey-Plaza-aerial2.jpg)

JohnM

Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 11, 2019, 03:29:00 PM

Again, it is very good news if Stone got the original film from NBC for that clip and that is why it is so clear...That would mean MSNBC went to the stock archive of the original Kinescope or Telecine copy to get the version with the logo...

This could be evidence that the original will have a very crisp scan of Sarah Stanton in the Prayer Man spot...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 11, 2019, 04:05:27 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
1) Towner.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmtXSGNt/towner-man-run.gif)

2) Darnell from JFK the Movie.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

3) Darnell from MSNBC
(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)

Pink=3 women. Red=Darnell.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JT2t00B/Dealey-Plaza-aerial2.jpg)

JohnM

    Regarding the B/W Overhead Still Shot you have posted, what do you believe is scattered across the Knoll Grass between the Stemmons Sign and The Pergola? Do you think that might be Flowers? If so, that B/W Overhead still frame would have been taken well after the Towner snippet which is supposed to have been filmed roughly 10 minutes After the Kill Shot. The Towner film footage does Not show Anything scattered across the Knoll Grass as the Suited Man runs across that section of the Knoll.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 11, 2019, 05:12:08 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Royell is dodging the pertinent facts...(Wasting our time in other words)...Royell is flagrantly dodging answering that Darnell can be seen coming from the pedestal just prior to catching up to the 3 Women...

It strikes me that if Stone got the original Darnell film for that clip that there would be a record for it in the film references...That it would be accessible in the documentation of the making of the film somewhere...

    Yeah. An overhead still frame that alleges to show the 3 Women and Darnell on the Knoll Well Over 10 minutes following the Kill Shot is "wasting our time". That would be because Your Conclusion(s) are Not based on Fact. For starters, YOU see a Suited Man running across the Knoll on the Towner Film and YOU claim as a FACT that this Suited Man is Darnell having Finished Filming the interview of Sitzman standing by the Zapruder Perch. With, (1) the Towner Film having been Time Stamped as being filmed 10 minutes after the Kill Shot, vs (2) Your claiming Darnell had finished filming the Sitzman interview and Now the Towner film shows him running across the Knoll to film the 3 Women in front of him = do we Know for a FACT that the Sitzman Interview at the Zapruder Perch was conducted LESS than 10 minutes following the Kill Shot? This would mean that Only 8 minutes after the Kill Shot,  Darnell, the Interviewer, and Sitzman had ALL gathered together and put themselves into position by the pedestal for that filmed interview. On top of that, as we see in that interview, Sitzman already has a lighted cigarette in hand and appears quite calm and coherent when Only 8 minutes earlier she had witnessed the POTUS getting his head blown off.  Please take the time to gather FACTS and then Think your Opinion(s) through.     
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 11, 2019, 09:31:08 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
...Most internet regulars are pet theorists who are willing to tie up good research for years trying to force their theory rather than just acknowledging the obvious...In my phone call with Walt Brown he agreed that most researchers don't want to solve the assassination...They just want to argue over-detailed pet theory BS forever...

Walt clearly reads these boards and is well aware of you, you should be flattered.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 11, 2019, 09:37:41 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
    Yeah. An overhead still frame that alleges to show the 3 Women and Darnell on the Knoll Well Over 10 minutes following the Kill Shot is "wasting our time". That would be because Your Conclusion(s) are Not based on Fact. For starters, YOU see a Suited Man running across the Knoll on the Towner Film and YOU claim as a FACT that this Suited Man is Darnell having Finished Filming the interview of Sitzman standing by the Zapruder Perch. With, (1) the Towner Film having been Time Stamped as being filmed 10 minutes after the Kill Shot, vs (2) Your claiming Darnell had finished filming the Sitzman interview and Now the Towner film shows him running across the Knoll to film the 3 Women in front of him = do we Know for a FACT that the Sitzman Interview at the Zapruder Perch was conducted LESS than 10 minutes following the Kill Shot? This would mean that Only 8 minutes after the Kill Shot,  Darnell, the Interviewer, and Sitzman had ALL gathered together and put themselves into position by the pedestal for that filmed interview. On top of that, as we see in that interview, Sitzman already has a lighted cigarette in hand and appears quite calm and coherent when Only 8 minutes earlier she had witnessed the POTUS getting his head blown off.  Please take the time to gather FACTS and then Think your Opinion(s) through.     

Storing,

How ignorant are you?

There were no overhead shots of the grassy knoll area at that time.

Mytton used that one only for illustrative purposes, to show us where he believes 
the three women and Darnell were in relation to each other just before, during, and just after the Towner film "captured all four of them on film.

D'oh

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 11, 2019, 10:04:11 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I believe SA Lems Johns did Not get back inside the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car. Johns eventually arrived at AF1 AFTER LBJ had been there awhile.. If Johns had jumped back inside that Follow-Up Car he would have arrived at AF1 when LBJ did. (Johns was assigned to the LBJ SS Detail). I think Johns arrived at AF1 when Jackie did. To me, there is No Way SA Lem Johns could have jumped out of that vehicle in the middle of Elm St and run up the street toward the LBJ convertible and Not be captured on Any assassination images or be sighted by Any of the eyewitnesses inside Dealey Plaza. That's just flat-out Unbelievable. Wiegman filmed JFK all the time so he would know the different SS Agents. I believe Wiegman's story of seeing SA Lem Johns at the Top of the Knoll.
That's why Trask's wording regarding the Sitzman Interview is Important with regard to the Factual Record. Trask very well could have used his own connect-the-dots thought process. He also did this at times in "POTP". Like I said before, it is Not unusual for assassination film snippets filmed by different camera men to be Spliced together for JFK Specials or VHS/DVD presentations.

We don't even know if Lems got fully out of his car, let alone halfway to LBJ, so I am assuming he did not(especially the latter) because of exactly what you said, there's no evidence for it.
Wiegman met Johns at the TM, ask yourself how and why?  Why did Johns group go to the mart and not follow the limo to PH?  Seems obvious to me, his driver lost the lead cars and so went to the designated next stop like every other vehicle behind them.
Wiegman then tells of Johns himself going around gathering intel and when he hears the news, tells Dave, of all people and invites him to join him, Askins as well, on a trip to the hospital in a police car(which I thoroughly believe btw).  Nice to have friends.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 12, 2019, 01:07:20 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
We don't even know if Lems got fully out of his car, let alone halfway to LBJ, so I am assuming he did not(especially the latter) because of exactly what you said, there's no evidence for it.
Wiegman met Johns at the TM, ask yourself how and why?  Why did Johns group go to the mart and not follow the limo to PH?  Seems obvious to me, his driver lost the lead cars and so went to the designated next stop like every other vehicle behind them.
Wiegman then tells of Johns himself going around gathering intel and when he hears the news, tells Dave, of all people and invites him to join him, Askins as well, on a trip to the hospital in a police car(which I thoroughly believe btw).  Nice to have friends.

Wiegman met Johns at the Teller Machine??

The Mall???

The Mailbox?????
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 12, 2019, 02:00:56 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
We don't even know if Lems got fully out of his car, let alone halfway to LBJ, so I am assuming he did not(especially the latter) because of exactly what you said, there's no evidence for it.
Wiegman met Johns at the TM, ask yourself how and why?  Why did Johns group go to the mart and not follow the limo to PH?  Seems obvious to me, his driver lost the lead cars and so went to the designated next stop like every other vehicle behind them.
Wiegman then tells of Johns himself going around gathering intel and when he hears the news, tells Dave, of all people and invites him to join him, Askins as well, on a trip to the hospital in a police car(which I thoroughly believe btw).  Nice to have friends.

    SA Lem Johns filed his "Original Report" on 11/29/63. I'm paraphrasing, but in John's "Original Report" he flat-out Details getting Out of the car and Running toward the Vice President's car and then hearing the 3rd shot fired. The SA Lem Johns "Original Report" would be the Evidence of what He/Lem Johns allegedly did physically upon hearing shots being fired. SA Johns also goes on within that report to say that he got a ride to Parkland Hospital with, "White House movie men".  Johns goes on to add that he arrived at Parkland Hospital at "approx 12:45 - 12:50 pm". So per SA Johns he got completely out of the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car & then ran up the middle of Elm St. Yet, there is Not a single assassination image of Johns doing Any of this, or Any Dealey Plaza Eyewitness that Ever reported seeing it.   
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 12, 2019, 04:59:34 PM

I'm not sure what Lem Johns has to do with the 3 Women...

In any case the community has access to Stone's movie and the source references for it...That community will not go to Stone's film and see the entry for the clip of the 3 Women because it already knows the answer it will get...

Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 12, 2019, 09:24:09 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
At the end of the day it comes down to making logical assumptions based on the evidence and within the context of this environment what I believe would be court accepted "proof beyond a reasonable doubt".

1. Both videos show 3 people walking side by side, with virtually no one else close by.
2. Both videos show 3 people walking away from the Elm street monument.
3. Both videos show same 3 people heading the same direction.
4. Both videos show a lady on our far right wearing a light headscarf.
5. Both videos show the person in the center to have a light coloured head.
6. Both videos show the person on our far left has a dark head.
7. Both videos show that all three are wearing clothing which appears dark in shadow.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CMtcRgZf/3-women.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

Now sure there is a possibility that after these 3 people in the far off gif left the frame they were replaced by another three people that just happened to fill in all the above criteria but we all know from our personal lives that this possibility is extremely remote, so while it may never be proven to the illusive 100% Iacoletti standard, the reality is that these three people would have to be the same three.

JohnM

John,

Your analysis is spot on.

The three women are, from left-to-right, self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob and her two Texas School Book Company colleagues, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons -- the same three gals who were "caught" in the Zapruder film standing near the Stemmons sign.

Not Westbrook's "Uhh, probably (lilly-white) Carol Reed, Gloria Calvery, and me, Karen Westbrook," as guessed-at by Westbrook ... from behind and 54 years after-the-fact.

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 13, 2019, 01:12:47 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
    SA Lem Johns filed his "Original Report" on 11/29/63. I'm paraphrasing, but in John's "Original Report" he flat-out Details getting Out of the car and Running toward the Vice President's car and then hearing the 3rd shot fired. The SA Lem Johns "Original Report" would be the Evidence of what He/Lem Johns allegedly did physically upon hearing shots being fired. SA Johns also goes on within that report to say that he got a ride to Parkland Hospital with, "White House movie men". Johns goes on to add that he arrived at Parkland Hospital at "approx 12:45 - 12:50 pm". So per SA Johns he got completely out of the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car & then ran up the middle of Elm St. Yet, there is Not a single assassination image of Johns doing Any of this, or Any Dealey Plaza Eyewitness that Ever reported seeing it.   

DP-TM= 5mins
@TM for 5mins
TM-PH= 5mins
NP.

Also, "SA Johns also goes on within that report to say that he got a ride to Parkland Hospital with, "White House movie men"...
Grabbing a police car and inviting Wiegman and Atkins to join him actually fits the bill if you allow yourself to read it that way and Wiegman footage on the way to Parkland shows he was in a covered vehicle, not a convertible.

Circumstantial evidence, that's all recollections are.
There is no doubt that Johns was technically in a good position to hear something coming from the building, near it, or even the GK, like the occupants of the FUC were seconds before but just like Hill, his vehicle was travelling too fast for him to jump out and run forward, he would have had to have waited for it to slow like Hill did and since he was further back in the chain(reaction) I highly doubt he reacted before the "third shot".  Then we have Wiegman's limo frame @8secs post Z313, that tells me Johns is inside his car, so whatever he did doesn't strike me as important.  Besides, what else is he gonna say, that he didn't recognise the sounds as significant and just sat there wondering what was going on, like 99% of the people present that day seem to be doing?
These same 99% it turns out, all circumstantiously(!) tell us they heard shots but how many are seen reacting to them in the hard evidence? 
0.0!
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 13, 2019, 03:28:36 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
DP-TM= 5mins
@TM for 5mins
TM-PH= 5mins
NP.

Also, "SA Johns also goes on within that report to say that he got a ride to Parkland Hospital with, "White House movie men"...
Grabbing a police car and inviting Wiegman and Atkins to join him actually fits the bill if you allow yourself to read it that way and Wiegman footage on the way to Parkland shows he was in a covered vehicle, not a convertible.

Circumstantial evidence, that's all recollections are.
There is no doubt that Johns was technically in a good position to hear something coming from the building, near it, or even the GK, like the occupants of the FUC were seconds before but just like Hill, his vehicle was travelling too fast for him to jump out and run forward, he would have had to have waited for it to slow like Hill did and since he was further back in the chain(reaction) I highly doubt he reacted before the "third shot".  Then we have Wiegman's limo frame @8secs post Z313, that tells me Johns is inside his car, so whatever he did doesn't strike me as important.  Besides, what else is he gonna say, that he didn't recognise the sounds as significant and just sat there wondering what was going on, like 99% of the people present that day seem to be doing?
These same 99% it turns out, all circumstantiously(!) tell us they heard shots but how many are seen reacting to them in the hard evidence? 
0.0!

What does any of this Lem Johns stuff have to do with whether or not Darnell filmed, in two separate clips, Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons 1) stepping down from the Pergola Patio, and 2) walking either across the Grassy Knoll's grass, or up the Elm Street sidewalk, a few minutes after the assassination?

Did I miss something?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 13, 2019, 04:02:54 PM

If you go to the source references for Stone's JFK film you'll find the clear shot of the 3 Women stepping down from the Pergola patio to be the Darnell film...The rest is time-wasting speculation...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 13, 2019, 05:12:55 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
DP-TM= 5mins
@TM for 5mins
TM-PH= 5mins
NP.

Also, "SA Johns also goes on within that report to say that he got a ride to Parkland Hospital with, "White House movie men"...
Grabbing a police car and inviting Wiegman and Atkins to join him actually fits the bill if you allow yourself to read it that way and Wiegman footage on the way to Parkland shows he was in a covered vehicle, not a convertible.

Circumstantial evidence, that's all recollections are.
There is no doubt that Johns was technically in a good position to hear something coming from the building, near it, or even the GK, like the occupants of the FUC were seconds before but just like Hill, his vehicle was travelling too fast for him to jump out and run forward, he would have had to have waited for it to slow like Hill did and since he was further back in the chain(reaction) I highly doubt he reacted before the "third shot".  Then we have Wiegman's limo frame @8secs post Z313, that tells me Johns is inside his car, so whatever he did doesn't strike me as important.  Besides, what else is he gonna say, that he didn't recognise the sounds as significant and just sat there wondering what was going on, like 99% of the people present that day seem to be doing?
These same 99% it turns out, all circumstantiously(!) tell us they heard shots but how many are seen reacting to them in the hard evidence? 
0.0!

    Just so we are clear, are you Claiming the film footage that shows Wiegman running from the Knoll North Curb and into the middle of Elm St as he Races after his original camera car/camera car #1 is Bogus? I am Not aware of Any images showing Wiegman walking down Elm St or climbing into a Cop Car. There is no visual or verbal verification to support any of that having happened. 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 13, 2019, 06:15:45 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
    Just so we are clear, are you Claiming the film footage that shows Wiegman running from the Knoll North Curb and into the middle of Elm St as he Races after his original camera car/camera car #1 is Bogus? I am Not aware of Any images showing Wiegman walking down Elm St or climbing into a Cop Car. There is no visual or verbal verification to support any of that having happened.

Storing,

What does this have to do with the subject of this thread?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 13, 2019, 08:38:05 PM
You already know the answer, stop diverting the thread.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 13, 2019, 09:02:00 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
    Just so we are clear, are you Claiming the film footage that shows Wiegman running from the Knoll North Curb and into the middle of Elm St as he Races after his original camera car/camera car #1 is Bogus? I am Not aware of Any images showing Wiegman walking down Elm St or climbing into a Cop Car. There is no visual or verbal verification to support any of that having happened.

The TRADE MART, that's what TM means and that's what Wiegman claims happened there, he says Atkins and himself were invited to join Lem Johns on a trip to Parkland after Johns found out that the President was hit.  Johns grabbed a cop car at the TM because that's where his driver went first, same thing happened to Wiegman and Atkins, their driver too went straight to the next designated stop.  It's all in POTP(which was written by Trask, the man who claims Darnell took the Sitzman footage, there's the link, like we need one), the CC1 chapter.
B/W footage taken from inside a closed vehicle shows that very car just at the approach to PH, you may have seen it but not recognised it for what it is, it's from Wiegman, he claims he switched cars at the TM and I believe that footage is his and so confirms it.  If I find it again I'll let you know but would you know Wiegman footage from any other?  Might be yet another sidebar, which unless I've missed something are not against the rules here...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 13, 2019, 09:35:58 PM

I have no idea what they are getting at...The subject is the 3 Women who were seen in Towner and Darnell walking across the Pergola patio...They are Jacob, Holt, and Simmons...

It is my claim that if the clear version of the 3 Women shown in clip #1 is from the Darnell film and that clear clip is from Stone's movie 'JFK' that it will be labeled "Darnell Film" in the source references for the movie...

Both clips #1 & 2 are obviously from Darnell because you can see Darnell running from the Pedestal where he just filmed Sitzman in Towner...

Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 13, 2019, 09:47:29 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The TRADE MART, that's what TM means and that's what Wiegman claims happened there, he says Atkins and himself were invited to join Lem Johns on a trip to Parkland after Johns found out that the President was hit.  Johns grabbed a cop car at the TM because that's where his driver went first, same thing happened to Wiegman and Atkins, their driver too went straight to the next designated stop.  It's all in POTP(which was written by Trask, the man who claims Darnell took the Sitzman footage, there's the link, like we need one), the CC1 chapter.
B/W footage taken from inside a closed vehicle shows that very car just at the approach to PH, you may have seen it but not recognised it for what it is, it's from Wiegman, he claims he switched cars at the TM and I believe that footage is his and so confirms it.  If I find it again I'll let you know but would you know Wiegman footage from any other?  Might be yet another sidebar, which unless I've missed something are not against the rules here...

   Thanks.  I would appreciate seeing that footage if possible. Seems we got 1 guy railing about our discussion because he Knows absolutely Nothing about the Details we are discussing. This is much like someone walking up and butting into an on-going conversation with the stimulating comment, "What you guys talkin' about?". 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 13, 2019, 10:21:31 PM
Royell is claiming that Groden spliced a lot of films together so therefore clip #1 is possibly from an unknown camera man that he can't name or place in the Towner film...Royell ignores that the camera man seen in Towner originates from the Pedestal direction where Darnell was credited with filming Sitzman...

If the clear clip #1 comes from Oliver Stone's movie then he would absolutely have to clear it with the copy right owner and it would be in the source references for Stone's movie...If that clear clip was not from Darnell the copy right designation will also be listed in the source references for Stone's movie...

Royell seems to be avoiding giving a direct answer to this...

Royell is also ignoring that if Stone accessed Darnell for that clip that the official clip he used would originate from the NBC archive source and therefore not have any Groden splices haphazardly thrown in to it...NBC would and could not sell a copy right for a clip that didn't originate from it...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 13, 2019, 10:41:36 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
...It is my claim that if the clear version of the 3 Women shown in clip #1 is from the Darnell film and that clear clip is from Stone's movie 'JFK' that it will be labeled "Darnell Film" in the source references for the movie...

Back in '92?  Very unlikely.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 13, 2019, 10:48:48 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Back in '92?  Very unlikely.


You're not answering what was written...If that clip comes from Stone's movie it has to have a licensing/copy right reference in the movies credits...

You're not coherently following what is being argued here...That clip came from the Darnell original or telecine copy in the possession of NBC...It had to in order for Stone to get copy right permission and you're not answering to it...

You can't just avoid answering the point...The point is that Stone's movie credits will tell you the source for that clip...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 14, 2019, 01:05:40 PM
Listen, IDK but I'd wager that that footage was sold as uncredited stock.  It happens.  Jimmy worked for NBC or whoever and that's their property, get it?
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 14, 2019, 03:12:17 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Listen, IDK but I'd wager that that footage was sold as uncredited stock.  It happens.  Jimmy worked for NBC or whoever and that's their property, get it?


What are you talking about?...You're saying that NBC sold another company's stock?...And you're saying it with a straight face?...

There's no such thing as uncredited stock and anyone who was in the Plaza with a camera capable of taking that footage was working on assignment for some media entity...Remember the issue here is Royell said another unknown mystery camera man took the clear footage of the 3 Women in clip #1...

You and Royell just don't want to admit that the 3 Women were Darnell's quarry and he saw them and saw good subject matter and pounced after filming Sitzman...

Who sold uncredited footage to Stone?...NBC?...So you're saying a major motion picture that would be one of the prime targets of a copy right lawsuit if they dared show unlicensed material just took a flier and showed uncredited stock hoping no one would notice?...Sure Barry, yeah, that's the ticket, yeah...Uncredited stock and take a chance - right...

Come back to Earth Barry...If we somehow access Stone's movie references we'll find that the source reference for clip #1 is NBC's Jimmy Darnell film...

"Skip Worthy"  LOL!... 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 14, 2019, 08:26:48 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The TRADE MART, that's what TM means and that's what Wiegman claims happened there, he says Atkins and himself were invited to join Lem Johns on a trip to Parkland after Johns found out that the President was hit.  Johns grabbed a cop car at the TM because that's where his driver went first, same thing happened to Wiegman and Atkins, their driver too went straight to the next designated stop.  It's all in POTP(which was written by Trask, the man who claims Darnell took the Sitzman footage, there's the link, like we need one), the CC1 chapter.
B/W footage taken from inside a closed vehicle shows that very car just at the approach to PH, you may have seen it but not recognised it for what it is, it's from Wiegman, he claims he switched cars at the TM and I believe that footage is his and so confirms it.  If I find it again I'll let you know but would you know Wiegman footage from any other?  Might be yet another sidebar, which unless I've missed something are not against the rules here...

     In "Pictures Of The Pain", Trask quotes Wiegman  as to SA Lem Johns piling into Wiegman's Camera Car #1 as it went down Elm St. Per Wiegman, this would put Wiegman and Johns in the Same Car while they were both Still on Elm St inside Dealey Plaza.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 14, 2019, 08:38:15 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Storing,

What does this have to do with the subject of this thread?

-- MWT  ;)


Thomas...

Do you feel like me that the most pertinent evidence is being diverted by means of an irrelevant side topic?...

Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 14, 2019, 08:41:01 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Thomas...

Do you feel like me that the most pertinent evidence is being diverted by means of an irrelevant side topic?


I wonder if they even voted in the poll that started this thread.

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 15, 2019, 07:21:40 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
     In "Pictures Of The Pain", Trask quotes Wiegman  as to SA Lem Johns piling into Wiegman's Camera Car #1 as it went down Elm St. Per Wiegman, this would put Wiegman and Johns in the Same Car while they were both Still on Elm St inside Dealey Plaza.

Only in Trask's head(and in yours, mine and hundreds of others who've read the same thing).  But in the real evidence Johns just isn't there, not in Atkins, in Wiegman or Dillard.

Consider this, if a half decent agent commandeered CC1 on that street and at that time, you think the driver would have been allowed to wait for Atkins and his precious brand new camera?  Nup, IMO they would have been gone and I guess in yours too, since you believe Johns reacted to the sound of gunfire.
.
And Atkins did not dive head first back into the car, he had to wait for it to fully stop, that's the one and only reason why CC1 is still on Elm after a full minute, and probably twenty seconds after the last Dillard snap.  Atkins had a very expensive brand new camera(imagine an iphone the size of a briefcase, brand new and 100 times more fragile) and was not going to chance breaking it for anyone, especially on an unscheduled stop where he didn't even realise what had actually happened or even why they stopped.  As seen in Couch and as he hints toward to Trask, Atkins hit the GK completely clueless and after being directly at the intersection during "the third shot"ô.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 15, 2019, 07:34:51 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Yes it those three women again and as you already pointed out that is Darnell chasing them, very nice catch, get with it paisan.

As you can see, I expressed an opinion earlier but it's only votes that count, right.  And perhaps one day when we've all understood the significance of identifying these ladies we might just not vote again.  You wanna keep talking about these little girls?  Go right ahead, who is stopping you? TTFN.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 15, 2019, 08:11:38 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
As you can see, I expressed an opinion earlier but it's only votes that count, right.  And perhaps one day when we've all understood the significance of identifying these ladies we might just not vote again.  You wanna keep talking about these little girls?  Go right ahead, who is stopping you? TTFN.

Barry,

The significance of those three women is threefold:

1) In addition to their being filmed up close by Darnell and from a distance by Towner, they were also filmed from behind by Zapruder as they were standing by the Stemmons sign, watching the motorcade.

2)  Contrary to what was once commonly believed, none of those three women are Gloria Calvery. For two reasons: 1) none of them, as we can see in Darnell, look like her, and 2) as can be deduced from the Towner film, none of them ran up to the TSBD steps right after the assassination -- as Calvery did, according to Billy Lovelady and Joe Molina.

3)  Since big, tall Gloria Calvery is none of those women, taking into consideration not only her physiology but the statements she and her three colleagues made to the FBI, it's reasonable to assume that she's the big, tall black-blouse and black-headscarf-wearing gal in Zapruder (and on the TSBD steps about 25 seconds after the assassination in Couch-Darnell), instead.

Which has a bearing on the all-important Prayer Person issue, as well as on the post-assassination movements of Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, Vicki Adams, and, ultimately, Lee Harvey Oswald.

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 15, 2019, 04:58:31 PM


Those who don't want to admit Prayer Man is Stanton will pretend they don't understand the significance of the topic...

It is generally accepted and established by most credible researchers who want to be taken seriously that the 3 Women spoken of by Karen Westbrook in her 6th Floor Museum interview were not herself, Calvery, and Reed but were instead Sharon Simmons, Gloria Holt, and Stella Mae Jacob...This is proven by the fact the latter threesome were filmed by Towner and Darnell staying together and walking on the Pergola patio and Grassy Knoll...The close-up of the 3 Women that was definitely filmed by Darnell proves beyond a doubt that the 3 Women were Simmons, Holt, & Jacob...This identification is all part of undoing the damage Greg Parker and Sean Murphy caused the legitimate research world with their Tom Sawyer-like contrarian fantasy research posing as serious effort...Evidence hack and charlatan Bart Kamp has taken up this bogus cause and continues the Prayer Man group tradition of ignoring evidence and unnecessarily prolonging the debate by refusing to acknowledge the proof that Prayer Man is Stanton...Stephen Fagin also bears some blame in this because he refuses to publicly correct Westbrook's highly misleading claim...In my opinion Fagin does this because his institution does not want to get too in to the habit of correcting false assassination evidence for obvious reasons...

As Thomas Graves said, once you establish the 3 Women are Simmons, Holt, & Jacob then that forces Tall Woman to be Gloria Calvery...Gloria Calvery has been correctly identified as being on the steps in Darnell through her short-length sweater and plaid skirt...Which in turn forces the competent, responsible researcher to coordinate Calvery's location with Buell Frazier's location of Sarah Stanton in relation to Calvery's arrival at the steps...Once credibly done there can be no doubt that Darnell represents the precise time period Frazier spoke of when Calvery had just finished shouting the president has been shot and Buell said he and Sarah turned to each other and stared at each other for the longest time...Prayer Man turns towards Frazier from Wiegman to Darnell and matches Sarah turning towards Frazier like he described...There's absolutely no doubt that Prayer Man is Stanton, yet we are still arguing this because the Prayer Man majority refuses to admit good evidence and is willing to destroy the credibility of the entire community by not admitting it...Jim DiEugenio is a major culprit in all this because he uses dishonest methods to rally his sycophants behind this dishonest denial...Sandy Larsen deals with this by saying "You and I have too many differences" - but he fails to simply honestly follow-through on his own evidence...People who pretend Davidson hasn't shown a woman's face on Prayer Man are just setting themselves up for discrediting when the original film proves that the woman's face is a firm part of the original Wiegman celluloid (counter to Bary Kamp's lies)...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 15, 2019, 11:53:22 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Only in Trask's head(and in yours, mine and hundreds of others who've read the same thing).  But in the real evidence Johns just isn't there, not in Atkins, in Wiegman or Dillard.

Consider this, if a half decent agent commandeered CC1 on that street and at that time, you think the driver would have been allowed to wait for Atkins and his precious brand new camera?  Nup, IMO they would have been gone and I guess in yours too, since you believe Johns reacted to the sound of gunfire.
.
And Atkins did not dive head first back into the car, he had to wait for it to fully stop, that's the one and only reason why CC1 is still on Elm after a full minute, and probably twenty seconds after the last Dillard snap.  Atkins had a very expensive brand new camera(imagine an iphone the size of a briefcase, brand new and 100 times more fragile) and was not going to chance breaking it for anyone, especially on an unscheduled stop where he didn't even realise what had actually happened or even why they stopped.  As seen in Couch and as he hints toward to Trask, Atkins hit the GK completely clueless and after being directly at the intersection during "the third shot"ô.

  You and I differ as to the Reason SA Johns Lied about jumping out of the LBJ SS Car and then running down Elm St. With Wiegman having seen Johns UP at the Top of the Knoll, Johns and the SS knew they had to cook up a story to at least place Johns Outside of the SS Car after the Kill Shot. The SS probably figured they could quibble as to their claim of Johns staying physically on Elm St vs Wiegman's story of running into John's UP at the Top of the Knoll IF these 2 conflicting accounts was Ever raised. Just my opinion, but I believe that SA Johns was Never seated inside the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car. I believe he was assigned a physical position somewhere inside Dealey Plaza that day. The reason the SS did Not want to admit that Johns was positioned inside Dealey Plaza that day is the Real Mystery. The sighting of a SS Agent on foot inside Dealey Plaza immediately after the Kill Shot by both Law Enforcement and general eyewitnesses has always been categorically denied by the SS. Wiegman having encountered SA Johns at the Top of the Knoll corroborates those reported sightings of an SS Agent on foot inside Dealey Plaza.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 16, 2019, 01:25:34 AM

A point of order:

Unless the side conversation about those who left the media cars can be respectfully connected to the on-topic subject of the 3 Women I move that it be moved to another thread...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 16, 2019, 01:41:05 AM
Fair enough
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 16, 2019, 03:11:10 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

3)  Since big, tall Gloria Calvery is none of those women, taking into consideration not only her physiology but the statements she and her three colleagues made to the FBI, it's reasonable to assume that she's the big, tall black-blouse and black-headscarf-wearing gal in Zapruder (and on the TSBD steps about 25 seconds after the assassination in Couch-Darnell), instead.

Which has a bearing on the all-important Prayer Person issue, as well as on the post-assassination movements of Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, Vicki Adams, and, ultimately, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Sorry then, how does the Calvary find effect out understanding of PM in your opinion?
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 16, 2019, 03:35:48 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Sorry then, how does the Calvary find effect our understanding of PM in your opinion?

Barry,

Standing where she was on the north side of Elm Street during the motorcade, big, tall, black-blouse and black-headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery had a excellent view of the fatal head shot.

Buell Wesley Frazier said that when a crying girl (Calvery) "came by" the steps and announced that JFK had been shot, he and a "Sarah" who was standing near him at the time turned towards each other in astonishment and spoke with each other for a few seconds.

When we compare the orientations of Frazier and Prayer Person in Wiegman, and compare them again about 20 seconds later in Couch-Darnell (in which Calvery can be seen on one of the lower steps talking with Billy Lovelady or... gasp ... Joe Molina), we can see that they (Frazier and Prayer Person) have turned towards each other at some point during the gap between the two films, as though they're speaking with each other about what they've just heard Gloria Calvery bellow out to Lovelady (or Molina), below.

Also, Chris Davidson's image-enhancement work suggests that Prayer Person was either Mary Tyler Moore or Sarah Stanton.

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 16, 2019, 09:01:26 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Barry,

Standing where she was on the north side of Elm Street during the motorcade, big, tall, black-blouse and black-headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery had a excellent view of the fatal head shot.

Buell Wesley Frazier said that when a crying girl (Calvery) "came by" the steps and announced that JFK had been shot, he and a "Sarah" who was standing near him at the time turned towards each other in astonishment and spoke with each other for a few seconds.

When we compare the orientations of Frazier and Prayer Person in Wiegman, and compare them again about 20 seconds later in Couch-Darnell (in which Calvery can be seen on one of the lower steps talking with Billy Lovelady or... gasp ... Joe Molina), we can see that they (Frazier and Prayer Person) have turned towards each other at some point during the gap between the two films, as though they're speaking with each other about what they've just heard Gloria Calvery bellow out to Lovelady (or Molina), below.

Also, Chris Davidson's image-enhancement work suggests that Prayer Person was either Mary Tyler Moore or Sarah Stanton.

-- MWT  ;)

Okay, you too huh?  Xxxx me...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 16, 2019, 12:05:24 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Okay, you too huh?  Xxxx me...


I think it is a mistake to seriously respond to Barry Thomas...I don't think he is sincerely seeking the information he asks for and is playing games...

It's not like I haven't spent a year detailing the significance of Calvery's location in the Prayer Woman thread in great detail...Once you locate Calvery on the steps then you have to calibrate her to Frazier's locating of Stanton via Calvery's arrival at the steps...Since Darnell obviously shows the exact moment following Calvery's arrival at the steps that means Darnell shows the exact time period when Frazier was staring at Sarah...Frazier is focused on and facing Prayer Man for the entire length of the Darnell clip, which means by definition that Prayer Man must be Stanton...

Barry knows this, which is why he's playing dumb and refusing to answer...He's not really interested in the information he seeks in my opinion...

Lovelady is going up the extension with Shelley in Couch/Darnell like all the witnesses described as well as Lovelady himself...Which means the man on the steps is Molina...

Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 16, 2019, 09:16:09 PM
The pertinent part of the Towner film:

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sqkOATiPTRk/W7DNxeK1b9I/AAAAAAAACbU/iwsvC5zr4AEO1Baql7VTHg78v8gq73ryACLcBGAs/s1600/towner2.gif)
(John Iacoletti thinks they might be men.)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Tom Scully on July 16, 2019, 09:40:06 PM
Let him run with this. His determined focus influenced me to see something, say something.

I am seeing five, possibly six.... outward appearance, all men.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
......
Quote
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/765693381/Billionaire-philanthropist-David-Rockefeller-dies-at-age-101.html

(https://www.deseretnews.com/images/article/hires/1817674/1817674.jpg)
FILE - In this Nov. 28, 1967, file photo, the five Rockefeller Brothers pose for photos in New York as they gather to receive gold medals from the National Institute of social sciences. From left are: David Rockefeller, President of the Chase Manhattan Bank; Winthrop Rockefeller, Governor of Arkansas; Frank Pace, President of the NISS; John D. Rockefeller 3rd, Chairman of the Rockefeller Foundation; Nelson Rockefeller, Governor of New York; and Laurence Rockefeller, a conservation adviser to President Johnson. ....
.........
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 16, 2019, 10:32:14 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Let him run with this. His determined focus influenced me to see something, say something.

I am seeing five, possibly six.... outward appearance, all men.
.........

Dear oh dear Scully,

They look like blobs to me.

What evidence do you have that they are men?

Where, after all, are their "Baby Boy Blue" headscarves?

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Tom Scully on July 16, 2019, 10:49:41 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Dear oh dear Scully,

They look like blobs to me.

What evidence do you have that they are men?

Where, after all, are their "Baby Boy Blue" headscarves?

--  MWT   ;)

You gotta admit, the 5 or 6 are nattily dressed, ala Mr. Charles!:

(http://jfkforum.com/images/DevineNattilyRedacted.jpg)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 16, 2019, 11:04:13 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You gotta admit, the 5 or 6 are nattily dressed, ala Mr. Charles!:

(http://jfkforum.com/images/DevineNattilyRedacted.jpg)

Dear oh dear Scully,

Mr. Charles?

Oh, my goodness, wasn't George DeMohrenschildt somehow associated with him?

You know, Oswald's much older and presumably wealthier friend whom CI's Clare Edward Petty concluded, based on some decoded WW II Venona intercepts, had been a long-term "KGB" "illegal" since 1938, or so?

Hmm

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 16, 2019, 11:58:20 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Let him run with this. His determined focus influenced me to see something, say something.

I am seeing five, possibly six.... outward appearance, all men.

Amazing what you can glean from a sharp image rather than just squinting at a blurry image and making assumptions.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/men-blobs.jpg)

Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Tom Scully on July 18, 2019, 12:48:49 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Dear oh dear Scully,

Mr. Charles?

Oh, my goodness, wasn't George DeMohrenschildt somehow associated with him?

You know, Oswald's much older and presumably wealthier friend whom CI's Clare Edward Petty concluded, based on some decoded WW II Venona intercepts, had been a long-term "KGB" "illegal" since 1938, or so?

Hmm

--  MWT   ;)

My goodness, indeed! I am assuming you still have internet access but are temporarily incommunicado.

Your song does not sound familiar.... perhaps if you were to hum a few bars? At one point it was decided more DeMohrenschildt and Charles was
not none of our business. (bottom paragraph) And who was 3. ....Reckret?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=64083&search=charles_and+nattily#relPageId=2&tab=page
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DevineNattilyUnredacted.jpg)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on September 20, 2019, 11:03:16 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It's quite a challenging juggling act for Kamp, Iacoletti, Giovanna-Zambanini and Unger, et al.

Dark-complected, self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob seems to be the spanner in their works.

-- MWT   ;)

Edited, because I think Linda now believes that the three gals on the Pergola Patio in Towner (and in the two short Darnell clips) are, from left to right, Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt, and Sharon Simmons, and that they are also standing by the Stemmons sign in Zapruder.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about that, Linda. 

--  Tommy  ;)


Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on September 21, 2019, 04:33:32 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There's no doubt the 3 Women seen in Darnell are Jacob, Holt, and Simmons...You can see their faces in the Darnell close-up clearly and, as Mytton correctly points-out, they do line up with where Darnell would have caught up and filmed them as he is seen doing in Towner...For credible analyzers Simmons' blue scarf and Jacob's white skirt make this a confirmed match with the 3 Women in Zapruder...

The suggestion that the man isn't Darnell and that Darnell is another person, even though if Darnell were another person he would have to be seen in Towner due to the timing of the 3 Women being filmed on the Pergola patio, is preposterous and should be strongly rejected and the suggester of such a ludicrous notion should be censured...The gratuitous doubt that appears to be based on seeking attention rather than honestly arguing evidence should be summarily rejected and that poster should somehow not be allowed to continue his irrational denial that is based on clearly faulty logic in my opinion...There is only one way Darnell could get the footage he did of the 3 Women and that would be if he was the man who is running in order to catch up and film those 3 ladies and that is what you see...To ignore the behavioral aspects of Darnell running to catch up to the ladies is to draw uncredibility on the ignore-er...The suggestion that there isn't enough proof that this is so is a false one and the standard of reasonable proof has been met on this particular evidence...Those of us who don't annoy research websites with irrational demands for levels of proof that only satisfy the compulsive need to push the definitions of evidence in to the silly range of pure sophistry understand that this evidence above should now be considered as having proven the issue and we can now safely say the 3 Women in both Zapruder and Darnell have been PROVEN to be Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...The middle woman was identified by her brother to be Gloria Holt...Unger has admitted in public that his label of June Dishong was wrong and the woman in question is Stella Mae Jacob...

In Cabluck you can see Jacob with her arm around Holt who who was visibly shaken up in Darnell after seeing Kennedy shot...Cabluck is far too long after the shots to allow for Holt to be Gloria Calvery, as Karen Westbrook incorrectly identified...So we can now safely say Tall Woman in Zapruder is Gloria Calvery, as her son Chris told me, and that Sandy Larsen and Graves have correctly identified her on the steps...

We can therefore ignore irrational outliers who only seem to be interested in annoying people by denying obvious evidence in its face in order to demand nutty levels of proof in order to satisfy their sophist compulsions...

      The assumption above is that the Sitzman interview was being filmed while these 3 ladies were at the top of the Knoll/near the Pergola. There is absolutely Nothing to verify this claim. As to the suited man running across the Knoll being ID'd as Darnell due to a White object being visible in his (R) front jacket pocket, I would ask that you take a Good Look at the Montesana Film. The portion of that film that shows a dark complected guy with a rifle raised above his head also displays a suited man with a still frame camera on the extreme (L). (If you are looking at a still frame from the film it needs to be Uncropped). This suited man Also has a White Object extending Up/Out of his (R) suit jacket pocket. This man has previously been Identified as being Skaggs. These 2 men are wearing somewhat different dark colored suits, but due to the lack of clarity of the suited man running across the knoll on the Towner Film, it is difficult to discern the true color of his suit. The gist being that inside Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 there were 2 Suited Men, Both carrying a camera of some kind, and Both having a White Object extending out of their (R) suit jacket pocket.
Title: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 21, 2019, 04:52:27 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
      The assumption above is that the Sitzman interview was being filmed while these 3 ladies were at the top of the Knoll/near the Pergola. There is absolutely Nothing to verify this claim. As to the suited man running across the Knoll being ID'd as Darnell due to a White object being visible in his (R) front jacket pocket, I would ask that you take a Good Look at the Montesana Film. The portion of that film that shows a dark complected guy with a rifle raised above his head also displays a suited man with a still frame camera on the extreme (L). (If you are looking at a still frame from the film it needs to be Uncropped). This suited man Also has a White Object extending Up/Out of his (R) suit jacket pocket. This man has previously been Identified as being Skaggs. These 2 men are wearing somewhat different dark colored suits, but due to the lack of clarity of the suited man running across the knoll on the Towner Film, it is difficult to discern the exact color of his suit. The gist being that inside Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 there were 2 Suited Men, Both carrying a camera of some kind, and Both having a White Object extending out of their (R) suit jacket pocket.

Rubbish...This has nothing to do with Sitzman...The man seen running has to be Darnell because the Darnell film with the 3 Women (Simmons, Holt, and Jacob) has a background that could only be filmed by Darnell if he was in that position...Since the man seen running is going directly to that position it has to be Darnell and cannot be anyone else...

That's PROOF and you have failed to give an adequate answer to it...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 21, 2019, 07:50:07 PM
The usual Doyle BS. You donít know where running blob ends up and you donít know when Darnellís clip of the 3 women was taken.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on September 21, 2019, 07:54:46 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Rubbish...This has nothing to do with Sitzman...The man seen running has to be Darnell because the Darnell film with the 3 Women (Simmons, Holt, and Jacob) has a background that could only be filmed by Darnell if he was in that position...Since the man seen running is going directly to that position it has to be Darnell and cannot be anyone else...

That's PROOF and you have failed to give an adequate answer to it...

   So You now have decided to run away from the story that Darnell had just finished filming the Sitzman interview in front of the shelter and then he ran across the knoll to film those 3 women? So how did Darnell allegedly come to be standing in front of that Pergola shelter and then run across the knoll After he was filming Back in the railroad area and then moved over close to the Elm St Extension where he filmed the TSBD?