JFK Assassination Forum

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Thomas Graves on May 26, 2019, 02:31:56 AM

Title: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 26, 2019, 02:31:56 AM
The question:

Are the three people walking across the Pergola Patio in the Towner Film:

Men?
-- 0 votes

Women? -- 7 votes

Impossible to tell [because all I can see are blobs]? -- 1 vote

The Tina Towner Film:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1303.0.html

.............


Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on May 28, 2019, 03:32:24 AM
I never voted but if you are talking about the 3 women in the following gifs then yeah they are women.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CMtcRgZf/3-women.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

And it appears that the 3 women to the left of the Stemmons Freeway sign are the same 3.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RVBX7TRM/zapgirlsa.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Bill Brown on May 28, 2019, 03:35:06 AM
I never voted but if you are talking about the 3 women in the following gifs then yeah they are women.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CMtcRgZf/3-women.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

And it appears that the 3 women to the left of the Stemmons Freeway sign are the same 3.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RVBX7TRM/zapgirlsa.gif)

JohnM

Nice catch, John.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 31, 2019, 09:32:58 AM


(https://i.postimg.cc/CMtcRgZf/3-women.gif)

.......



Click on the link, below, to see the dark brown upper garment on the gal who's wearing the white skirt. (At the very end of the GIF)
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oJAH7w2nK6c/W64xZN5PTYI/AAAAAAAACaE/VGiAC_fLrDoCNKqFjvEYTDe4pRnSSrHdgCLcBGAs/s1600/towmer.gif



-- MWT   ;)

Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 03, 2019, 11:56:53 PM
Yes it those three women again and as you already pointed out that is Darnell chasing them, very nice catch, get with it paisan.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 04, 2019, 09:26:07 PM
Fortunately, here is a video which shows the same 3 people, walking the same direction away from the same structure and shows that they are all women.

But how do you know for a fact that these are the same people / filmed at the same time?  You may think it's a logical guess, but it's still a guess.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 04, 2019, 10:36:41 PM
But how do you know for a fact that these are the same people / filmed at the same time?  You may think it's a logical guess, but it's still a guess.

At the end of the day it comes down to making logical assumptions based on the evidence and within the context of this environment what I believe would be court accepted "proof beyond a reasonable doubt".

1. Both videos show 3 people walking side by side, with virtually no one else close by.
2. Both videos show 3 people walking away from the Elm street monument.
3. Both videos show same 3 people heading the same direction.
4. Both videos show a lady on our far right wearing a light headscarf.
5. Both videos show the person in the center to have a light coloured head.
6. Both videos show the person on our far left has a dark head.
7. Both videos show that all three are wearing clothing which appears dark in shadow.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CMtcRgZf/3-women.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

Now sure there is a possibility that after these 3 people in the far off gif left the frame they were replaced by another three people that just happened to fill in all the above criteria but we all know from our personal lives that this possibility is extremely remote, so while it may never be proven to the illusive 100% Iacoletti standard, the reality is that these three people would have to be the same three.

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 04, 2019, 11:24:30 PM
At the end of the day it comes down to making logical assumptions based on the evidence and within the context of this environment what I believe would be court accepted "proof beyond a reasonable doubt".

1. Both videos show 3 people walking side by side, with virtually no one else close by.

The Darnell clip is too tight to know whether this is true or not.  Unless you're just talking about immediately behind them.  But then the blob that is supposedly Darnell in Towner is running behind those figures.

Quote
2. Both videos show 3 people walking away from the Elm street monument.

The Towner figures could be walking parallel to the pergola.

Quote
3. Both videos show same 3 people heading the same direction.

Roughly the same direction.  Whether it's the same three people is what is being debated.

Quote
4. Both videos show a lady on our far right wearing a light headscarf.

There's a blue patch in Towner that could be a headscarf.

Quote
5. Both videos show the person in the center to have a light coloured head.

But in Towner, is it the person's head, or hair, or some kind of head covering?

Quote
6. Both videos show the person on our far left has a dark head.

In Towner, that person is almost entirely obscured.  Where's the edges of the head?

Quote
7. Both videos show that all three are wearing clothing which appears dark in shadow.

Well, supposedly Stella Jacob was wearing a light colored skirt.  At least according to the claim that she is also the leftmost Zapruder sign lady.

Without any knowledge about exactly when Towner was filming and when Darnell was filming this particular clip, and given the resolution of the Towner clip, it's all guess work and confirmation bias.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 05, 2019, 12:11:39 AM

Without any knowledge about exactly when Towner was filming and when Darnell was filming this particular clip, and given the resolution of the Towner clip, it's all guess work and confirmation bias.

Well here could be another nail in the coffin, as the three people are walking across we see a man suddenly emerge seemingly running to where the 3 people are headed. This man in what could be a suit appears to be carrying something and it looks like he has a bag over his shoulder.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmtXSGNt/towner-man-run.gif)

James Darnell doing his job, later in the weekend.

(https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/James-Darnell.jpg)

My interpretation based on Darnell's footage is that Darnell is the running figure who sees 3 pretty sad girls and tries to move into a position where he can capture their faces. And the lady on the right is the last one to step down from something, the path?

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

Having another look I think Darnell is filming shaky cam style as he is running/walking from left to right and this footage is only seconds apart from Towner, too bad there isn't a fraction more Towner so we can see the scarfed lady step down. And not only that but based on his speed, Darnel would be in front of the girls when the background monument would be in about the same corresponding position.

Another observation is that in Towner the girls are walking towards the steps and as Darnell arrives you can see the shadow start to appear on the vertical surface of the top step. And if you look at the above Darnell video you can see the middle girl take a step down then as the the scarfed girl approaches she next takes the step down.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cLmfQ5PC/3-girls-coming-down-steps.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mDbZn3Zd/aftermath.jpg)

JohnM

Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Steve Howsley on June 05, 2019, 06:53:04 AM

Simply fantastic work JohnM  Thumb1:
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 05, 2019, 07:39:35 AM
Well here could be another nail in the coffin, as the three people are walking across we see a man suddenly emerge seemingly running to where the 3 people are headed. This man in what could be a suit appears to be carrying something and it looks like he has a bag over his shoulder.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmtXSGNt/towner-man-run.gif)

James Darnell doing his job, later in the weekend.

(https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/James-Darnell.jpg)

My interpretation based on Darnell's footage is that Darnell is the running figure who sees 3 pretty sad girls and tries to move into a position where he can capture their faces. And the lady on the right is the last one to step down from something, the path?

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

Having another look I think Darnell is filming shaky cam style as he is running/walking from left to right and this footage is only seconds apart from Towner, too bad there isn't a fraction more Towner so we can see the scarfed lady step down. And not only that but based on his speed, Darnel would be in front of the girls when the background monument would be in about the same corresponding position.

Another observation is that in Towner the girls are walking towards the steps and as Darnell arrives you can see the shadow start to appear on the vertical surface of the top step. And if you look at the above Darnell video you can see the middle girl take a step down then as the the scarfed girl approaches she next takes the step down.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vBXkZfrS/3-girls-coming-down-steps.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mDbZn3Zd/aftermath.jpg)

JohnM

Fwiw, I believe those two ladies on the right in the black and white photo by Cabluck are June Dishong and her unnamed work colleague.

They're visible in the Z-film, too, standing to the immediate left of the trio by the Stemmons sign comprised of Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt, and light-blue-headscarf-wearing Sharon Simmons (aka Westbrook's "probably Carol Reed, Gloria Calvery, and me, Karen Westbrook!").

-- MWT  ;)

PS  In a few frames of that Towner clip you can see the light blue color of the headscarf Sharon Simmons is wearing up there on the Pergola Patio.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 03:17:41 PM
"Mytton" isn't the first to suggest that the running bag man could be Darnell, and it's certainly certainly possible that he is, and that he took his footage shortly after the Towner clip, but I doubt it can ever be proven without additional info.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 05, 2019, 03:46:33 PM
"Mytton" isn't the first to suggest that the running bag man could be Darnell, and it's certainly certainly possible that he is, and that he took his footage shortly after the Towner clip, but I doubt it can ever be proven without additional info.

    I think Unger previously came up with this same Darnell ID speculation. As is usually the case, any unidentified B/W JFK Assassination footage is Immediately credited to Darnell. It is entirely possible this footage is courtesy of someone we know nothing about. Just my opinion but the picture quality of this B/W footage is far superior to what has previously been credited to Darnell.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 09:45:47 PM
1) the gal on the left in the Z-Film Trio isn't Westbrook's "probably Carol Reed," but self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob (inexplicably standing not with her Texas School Book Company colleagues as claimed in her and their FBI statements, but with South-Western Publishing Company's "Gloria Calvery" and "Me, Karen Westbrook!"), and

Tommy, not surprisingly, doesn't make a distinction between "Gloria Calver[y], there's no doubt in my mind, I remember that" and "I believe that's Carol Ann Reed".

I'm not sure what the "dark complexion" that Tommy imagines that he sees on one person tells anybody anything about who is standing next to her.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 10:08:22 PM
It's quite a challenging juggling act for Kamp, Iacoletti, Giovanna-Zambanini, Unger, et al.

Dark-complected, self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob seems to be the spanner in their works.

No, not even a little bit.  But dream on.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 05, 2019, 10:08:45 PM
Yeah, because Jacob and Holt were permanently attached at the hips.

Iacoletti,

Did Texas School Book Company employee Stella Mae Jacob say anything in her FBI statement about watching the motorcade with South-Western Publishing Company employees Gloria Calvery and Karen Westbrook?

Conversely, did Gloria Calvery and Karen Westbrook say anything in their FBI statements about watching the motorcade with Stella Mae Jacob?

No?

Why do you suppose that is, Iacoletti?

Maybe because it didn't happen?

-- MWT   ;)

PS  In your and Westbrook's "Three-Woman Calvery Group," even if that's "uhh ... probably Carol Reed" on the left (looking very dark complected, indeed, in Z-Frame-60 and in a couple of frames around it), where, pray tell, is Karan Hicks?

LOL
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 10:25:38 PM
Did Texas School Book Company employee Stella Mae Jacob say anything in her FBI statement about watching the motorcade with South-Western Publishing Company employees Gloria Calvery and Karen Westbrook?

Are you getting ready to unleash another multi-page argument that "accompanied by" means "shoulder-to-shoulder"?  Because if you are, I'm not interested.

Believe what you like.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 05, 2019, 10:40:32 PM
Are you getting ready to unleash another multi-page argument that "accompanied by" means "shoulder-to-shoulder"?  Because if you are, I'm not interested.

Believe what you like.

Iacoletti,

Whereas in the context of TSBD employees walking down Elm Street to watch JFK's motorcade pass by during their lunch hour, you define "accompanied by" to mean within 100 yards of each other?

50 yards?

10 yards?

What?

Whatever ridiculous distance you choose, Iacoletti, if the gal on the left in your and Westbrook's "Gloria Calvery Trio" is (dark-complected) Stella Mae Jacob, can you find her two Texas School Book Company colleagues, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons, anywhere within said distance on either side of Elm Street, "about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass"?

"Nope, because, despite what they said in their FBI statements, they obviously weren't standing on Elm Street during the motorcade and therefore weren't "caught" by Zapruder, or Altgens, or ..."

LOL

And how about Karan Hicks?  Since she's not in your and Westbrook's "Gloria Calvery Trio," where is she?  Didn't she say she was way down on Elm Street, too, or words to that effect?

Where could she possibly be, if she's not one of the four headscarf-wearing gals standing "shoulder-to-shoulder" in the Z-Film?

Hmm?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 11:15:26 PM
What part of "not interested" are you having trouble with?  You're the one who thinks he can identify people from the backs of their heads.  Not me.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 05, 2019, 11:39:53 PM
You're the one who thinks he can identify people from the backs of their heads.  Not me.


Yet Karen Westbrook can.  And fifty-four years after-the-fact, to boot!

Interesting, though, that her "probably Carol Reed" has a curiously dark-complected face in Z-Frame-59, Z-Frame-60, etc.

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z059.jpg

Guess Stephen "Smilin' 'N Noddin'" Fagin didn't show her those "very selectively color saturated" frames, huh?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 05, 2019, 11:42:17 PM
Yet Karen Westbrook can.  And fifty-four years after-the-fact, to boot!

You're forgetting the part about her actually being there.  Unlike you.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 06, 2019, 12:08:12 AM
You're forgetting the part about her actually being there.  Unlike you.

Iacoletti,

Yeah, it's amazing how time can distort people's memories, especially when they're with a smilin' n' noddin' host who done plum forgot about showin' her an' the aww-dee-ense Z-Frame 58, Z-Frame 59, Z-Frame 60, etc.

By the way, did ya notice how she froze up when Fagin showed her the Willis-5 photo, and said "... and here's Karen Westbrook"?


-- MWT  ;
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 06, 2019, 12:10:52 AM
Yeah, it's amazing how time can distort people's memories, especially when they're with a smilin' n' noddin' host, who plum forgot about Z-Frame 58, Z-Frame 59, Z-Frame 60, etc.

By the way, did ya notice how she froze up when Fagin showed her the Willis-5 photo?

Even more amazing:  how the arrogance of somebody who wasn't there and didn't know any of these people can cause him to "see" whatever it is he wants to see.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 06, 2019, 12:24:50 AM
Even more amazing:  how the arrogance of somebody who wasn't there and didn't know any of these people can cause him to "see" whatever it is he wants to see.

Iacoletti,

Could you please explain to us how your and Westbrook's "Carol Reed" was the only person in Z-Frame 59, etc, whose skin was made to look darker by the film's "color saturation"?
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z059.jpg

Thanks!

-- MWT   ;)


Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 06, 2019, 12:26:44 AM
Iacoletti,

Could you please explain to us how your and Westbrook's "Carol Reed" (in reality, self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob) was the only person in Z-Frame 59, etc, whose skin was made darker by the film's being "color saturated"?
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z059.jpg

Thanks!

-- MWT   ;)

Or do you now believe that self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob rudely left her two Texas School Book Company colleagues, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons, behind somewhere on Elm Street (mysteriously out of Altgens' and Zapruder's field-of-view but, according to their FBI statements, "about halfway between the TSBD and the Triple Underpass") to join South-Western Publishing Company employees "Gloria Calvery" and Karen Westbrook" (who were probably unknown to Jacob), "near" the Stemmons Sign in Zapruder and Betzner-3?
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 05:29:28 AM
After looking at some actual photos from the day and cross referencing this with the actual videos for some clues and this is when I had my Eureka moments.
The running man in the suit would have to be one of the cameramen from the day.
The "cameraman" was running towards where the girls were headed.
The 3 girls were pretty and sad and this creates powerful images.
The Darnell footage shows a shaky cam pan from left to right, which is the direction where the "cameraman" was headed.
If Darnell was stationary the background would be a much smoother pan, it looks like Darnell wasn't really prepared for capturing the girls and the Towner film of the "cameraman" running into position, shows why this would be the case.
I initially asked if the Towner footage was longer we could see the where the scarfed lady was stepping down but that's not necessary because we can clearly see the shadow on the rear of the top step indicating that at least one of the girls was already going down these steps.
In the photo from Dealey Plaza we see that there are two points which require a step down, at these steps or at the footpath but we can see from the relative size of the rear monument and Darnell would have to have a higher vantage point to be able to look down onto the floor inside the monument which simply shows that the girls must be coming down those corresponding top steps.
From Towner we can see that Darnell was in the correct position to capture the 3 women in the right place coming down the right steps.

So in Conclusion on top of the 3 girls being an extremely close match we can position exactly where Darnell was filming from.
It's a Slam Dunk and I would like to see some extraordinary evidence to debunk this Home Run.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmtXSGNt/towner-man-run.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mDbZn3Zd/aftermath.jpg)

Btw the alternate narrative that Darnell just happened to be at those steps in the same position and then captured another 3 people coming down the same stairs who all just happened to match the Towner people is that really a worthy possibility?
There is a time when some people should just admit defeat and move on, just sayin.

JohnM

    Again, the quality of the B/W film footage capturing the 3 ladies is far superior to the Darnell footage of: (1) Bill Newman pounding the ground, (2) the rear of the Press Bus going under the Triple Underpass, and (3) the general going on's behind the Zapruder Pergola.  If the footage of the 3 ladies is indeed the work of Darnell, he either switched film and/or cameras.  I have never heard of Darnell having done this. Once again, Darnell is simply being attached to JFK film footage of unknown origin. This is why this case remains unsolved after 55+ years. Loose ends have been Haphazardly Resolved vs Conclusively Proven.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 06, 2019, 06:38:05 AM
    Again, the quality of the B/W film footage capturing the 3 ladies is far superior to the Darnell footage of: (1) Bill Newman pounding the ground, (2) the rear of the Press Bus going under the Triple Underpass, and (3) the general going on's behind the Zapruder Pergola.  If the footage of the 3 ladies is indeed the work of Darnell, he either switched film and/or cameras.  I have never heard of Darnell having done this. Once again, Darnell is simply being attached to JFK film footage of unknown origin. This is why this case remains unsolved after 55+ years. Loose ends have been Haphazardly Resolved vs Conclusively Proven.

Quote
This is why this case remains unsolved after 55+ years.

What? This case was solved by the end of the first weekend back in 1963 and every commission essentially came to the same conclusion. If it really was someone else, surely after 55+ years one of you Kooks has got to come up with something?

Quote
Loose ends have been Haphazardly Resolved vs Conclusively Proven.

Talk about delusions of grandeur, out of the thousands of pieces of evidence, what have you got exactly besides someone in the crowd who was either Smith or Jones or whatever, how does that possibly affect the verified Mountain of evidence?

Quote
If the footage of the 3 ladies is indeed the work of Darnell, he either switched film and/or cameras.   

How about you post some Darnell videos that you probably saw on Youtube and we can try and work out if they are first generation and decent quality or was the footage filmed directly off TV from an old VHS tape. Honestly, the naivety on display and especially from one of our most experienced members is very disheartening.

Quote
I have never heard of Darnell having done this.

What do you think that Darnell kept in his bag?

(https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/James-Darnell.jpg)

Btw if your post has nothing to do with the thread topic then please take your silly irrelevant grievances elsewhere, thanks in advance! Cheers!

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 06:49:33 AM
What? This case was solved by the end of the first weekend back in 1963 and every commission essentially came to the same conclusion. If it really was someone else, surely after 55+ years one of you Kooks has got to come up with something?

Talk about delusions of grandeur, out of the thousands of pieces of evidence, what have you got exactly besides someone in the crowd who was either Smith or Jones or whatever, how does that possibly affect the verified Mountain of evidence?

How about you post some Darnell videos that you probably saw on Youtube and we can try and work out if they are first generation and decent quality or was the footage filmed directly off TV from an old VHS tape. Honestly, the naivety on display and especially from one of our most experienced members is very disheartening.

What do you think that Darnell kept in his bag?

(https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/James-Darnell.jpg)

Btw if your post has nothing to do with the thread topic then please take your silly irrelevant grievances elsewhere, thanks in advance! Cheers!

JohnM

    Why not simply explain Why there is the definition difference in the Darnell footage I cited vs the footage of the 3 Ladies?
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 06, 2019, 06:52:58 AM
    Why not simply explain Why there is the definition difference in the Darnell footage I cited vs the footage of the 3 Ladies?

How long is a piece of string?
How about you post the Darnell footage then we can critique it?

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 07:13:50 AM
How long is a piece of string?
How about you post the Darnell footage then we can critique it?

JohnM

    If You have seen the 3 Darnell film snippets in the same Clarity as the B/W film footage of the 3 Ladies, I would appreciate your providing me the location of such. I am looking forward to seeing those Darnell snippets in the same Clarity as the 3 Ladies film footage.     
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 06, 2019, 07:35:22 AM
    If You have seen the 3 Darnell film snippets in the same Clarity as the B/W film footage of the 3 Ladies, I would appreciate your providing me the location of such. I am looking forward to seeing those Darnell snippets in the same Clarity as the 3 Ladies film footage.   

Huh? it's not our problem?

You said that the videos that you have seen are different to other Darnell videos, post the videos that you have seen and then we can discuss why the videos are of a differing quality, your claim your proof!
In fact how dare you make some noob claim based on nothing but your memories and then demand that we prove your fantasies?

Btw why can't you post a video, surely an internet expert who keeps making technical claims can accomplish the much lesser technical challenge of posting a video? Hehehe!

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 06, 2019, 07:36:16 AM
"Mytton" isn't the first to suggest that the running bag man could be Darnell, and it's certainly certainly possible that he is, and that he took his footage shortly after the Towner clip, but I doubt it can ever be proven without additional info.

After looking at some actual photos from the day and cross referencing this with the actual videos for some clues and this is when I had my Eureka moments.
The running man in the suit would have to be one of the cameramen from the day.
The "cameraman" was running towards where the girls were headed.
The 3 girls were pretty and sad and this creates powerful images.
The Darnell footage shows a shaky cam pan from left to right, which is the direction where the "cameraman" was headed.
If Darnell was stationary the background would be a much smoother pan, it looks like Darnell wasn't really prepared for capturing the girls and the Towner film of the "cameraman" running into position, shows why this would be the case.
I initially asked if the Towner footage was longer we could see the where the scarfed lady was stepping down but that's not necessary because we can clearly see the shadow on the rear of the top step indicating that at least one of the girls was already going down these steps.
In the photo from Dealey Plaza we see that there are two points which require a step down, at these steps or at the footpath but we can see from the relative size of the rear monument and Darnell would have to have a higher vantage point to be able to look down onto the floor inside the monument which simply shows that the girls must be coming down those corresponding top steps.
From Towner we can see that Darnell was in the correct position to capture the 3 women in the right place coming down the right steps.

So in Conclusion on top of the 3 girls being an extremely close match we can position exactly where Darnell was filming from.
It's a Slam Dunk and I would like to see some extraordinary evidence to debunk this Home Run.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmtXSGNt/towner-man-run.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mDbZn3Zd/aftermath.jpg)

Btw the alternate narrative that Darnell just happened to be at those steps in the same position and then captured another 3 people coming down the same stairs who all just happened to match the Towner people is that really a worthy possibility?
There is a time when some people should just admit defeat and move on, just sayin.

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 07:40:28 AM
Huh? it's not our problem?

You said that the videos that you have seen are different to other Darnell videos, post the videos that you have seen and then we can discuss why the videos are of a differing quality, your claim your proof!
In fact how dare you make some noob claim based on nothing but your memories and then demand that we prove your fantasies?

Btw why can't you post a video, surely an internet expert who keeps making technical claims can accomplish the much lesser technical challenge of posting a video? Hehehe!

JohnM

     Come on John. We have both been around this subject long enough to know what is out there. If You had  the video, or knew of its' whereabouts,  you would have jammed it down my throat Immediately. Thanks for verifying what we both know is true.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Bill Chapman on June 06, 2019, 07:41:53 AM
What do you think that Darnell kept in his bag?
JohnM

His lunch ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 07:44:21 AM
After looking at some actual photos from the day and cross referencing this with the actual videos for some clues and this is when I had my Eureka moments.
The running man in the suit would have to be one of the cameramen from the day.
The "cameraman" was running towards where the girls were headed.
The 3 girls were pretty and sad and this creates powerful images.
The Darnell footage shows a shaky cam pan from left to right, which is the direction where the "cameraman" was headed.
If Darnell was stationary the background would be a much smoother pan, it looks like Darnell wasn't really prepared for capturing the girls and the Towner film of the "cameraman" running into position, shows why this would be the case.
I initially asked if the Towner footage was longer we could see the where the scarfed lady was stepping down but that's not necessary because we can clearly see the shadow on the rear of the top step indicating that at least one of the girls was already going down these steps.
In the photo from Dealey Plaza we see that there are two points which require a step down, at these steps or at the footpath but we can see from the relative size of the rear monument and Darnell would have to have a higher vantage point to be able to look down onto the floor inside the monument which simply shows that the girls must be coming down those corresponding top steps.
From Towner we can see that Darnell was in the correct position to capture the 3 women in the right place coming down the right steps.

So in Conclusion on top of the 3 girls being an extremely close match we can position exactly where Darnell was filming from.
It's a Slam Dunk and I would like to see some extraordinary evidence to debunk this Home Run.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmtXSGNt/towner-man-run.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mDbZn3Zd/aftermath.jpg)

Btw the alternate narrative that Darnell just happened to be at those steps in the same position and then captured another 3 people coming down the same stairs who all just happened to match the Towner people is that really a worthy possibility?
There is a time when some people should just admit defeat and move on, just sayin.

JohnM

    You continue attempting to avoid addressing WHY there is such a disparity in the Darnell snippets vs the clarity of 3 Ladies footage.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 06, 2019, 08:06:05 AM
I can't prove this is Jimmy but I've not heard anyone doubt it yet, anyway on the left, newspaper or perhaps motorcade schedule in his right jacket pocket, no sign of a shoulder strap and none in Hughes either unless I'm mistakener(haven't checked I just don't remember seeing one).
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/jackson-bob-on-main.jpg)
Same pocket has something white near it in Towner.

The Sitzman being interviewed footage by the shelter was credited to Jimmy by Trask himself, why IDK but could be part guesswork, in that regard, I guess Mack let him view some under the counter stuff from time to time.
I also guess that what Sitzman's told the reporter or cop garnered Jimmy's attention and that of some girls nearby, that's what upset "Holt" again and off she went with Jimmy in tow.
Darnell wasn't shooting random scenes, he was doing reaction work, like with the Newman fist pounding, how long do you think Bill was hitting his fist on the ground? 5 seconds?  Try it yourself, five hits seems about right, well, Jimmy caught it, that is a great point and shoot catch,  that's what he was trained to do and waiting for, something, anything.  98% of his footage seems to be reaction shots.  The one under the spotlight here has his DNA all over it.  It's OJ at Bundy.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 04:32:26 PM
I can't prove this is Jimmy but I've not heard anyone doubt it yet, anyway on the left, newspaper or perhaps motorcade schedule in his right jacket pocket, no sign of a shoulder strap and none in Hughes either unless I'm mistakener(haven't checked I just don't remember seeing one).
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/jackson-bob-on-main.jpg)
Same pocket has something white near it in Towner.

The Sitzman being interviewed footage by the shelter was credited to Jimmy by Trask himself, why IDK but could be part guesswork, in that regard, I guess Mack let him view some under the counter stuff from time to time.
I also guess that what Sitzman's told the reporter or cop garnered Jimmy's attention and that of some girls nearby, that's what upset "Holt" again and off she went with Jimmy in tow.
Darnell wasn't shooting random scenes, he was doing reaction work, like with the Newman fist pounding, how long do you think Bill was hitting his fist on the ground? 5 seconds?  Try it yourself, five hits seems about right, well, Jimmy caught it, that is a great point and shoot catch,  that's what he was trained to do and waiting for, something, anything.  98% of his footage seems to be reaction shots.  The one under the spotlight here has his DNA all over it.  It's OJ at Bundy.

    The seating schematic I have seen for Camera Car #3 shows Darnell sitting on the extreme Driver's Side of the rear seat. The camera guy shown above is seated on the Passenger/Shotgun Side of the back seat. Again, if someone has an explanation regarding the detail difference between: (1) the Mediocre Definition of the Darnell footage showing Bill Newman pounding the ground, and (2) the Clear Definition of the 3 Ladies, I would be interested in hearing that story.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 06, 2019, 05:14:59 PM
     You previously stated that the Darnell images were taken from a "TV Screen". Your validation for this is "looking closely". This would therefore make what you previously stated as being a Fact = Nothing more than Your Opinion. Once again, you have attempted to pass off Your Opinion as being Fact.  BS:

Storing,

Do you agree that the three women in "Darnell" are the same three women we can see walking across the Pergola Patio in the Towner film, and who were also "captured" in the Zapruder film as they stood "next to" the Stemmons sign?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 06, 2019, 07:37:37 PM
Is that the one that Storing is claiming is suspiciously "blurry"?

-- MWT  ;)

   The Clear 3 Ladies footage above looks Nothing like ALL of the blurry footage credited to Darnell. Night and Day by comparison.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 06, 2019, 11:09:25 PM
The 3 Ladies Film stands out is for the simple reason that it was: (1) filmed by a Different Cameraman [than James Darnell], (2) using Different Film [than what James Darnell was using in the camera that he used to film the three ladies], (3) in a Different Camera [than James Darnell had with him]. It might be ground breaking to know Who this currently Unknown Cameraman/Assassination Eyewitness was.

Other than James Darnell, there was no cameraman who filmed "The Three Ladies" (Jacob, Holt and Simmons) after the assassination, Ralph I mean Royell.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 07, 2019, 12:06:49 AM
Other than James Darnell, there was no cameraman who filmed "The Three Ladies" (Jacob, Holt and Simmons) after the assassination, Ralph I mean Royell.

-- MWT   ;)

     Upon checking through The Bible of Assassination Images = "Pictures Of The Pain" by Richard Trask, there is absolutely No Mention of Darnell having filmed 3 Ladies in front of the Pergola or any mention of Darnell filming Anything in front of the Pergola area roughly 10 minutes following the Kill Shot.  I continue waiting for an explanation regarding the Detail Contrast between ALL the fuzzy Darnell film footage vs the Clarity of The 3 Ladies film footage.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 07, 2019, 01:11:11 AM
     Upon checking through The Bible of Assassination Images = "Pictures Of The Pain" by Richard Trask, there is absolutely No Mention of Darnell having filmed 3 Ladies in front of the Pergola or any mention of Darnell filming Anything in front of the Pergola area roughly 10 minutes following the Kill Shot.  I continue waiting for an explanation regarding the Detail Contrast between ALL the fuzzy Darnell film footage vs the Clarity of The 3 Ladies film footage.

Dear Ralph I mean Royell,

Well, obviously Trask missed that, didn't he?

But we, right here at the JFK Assassination Forum, discovered it!

-- MWT   ;)

PS  So who does your great expert have filming dark-complected Jacob, crying Holt, and headscarf-wearing Simmons walking together after the assassination?

Nobody?


Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 07, 2019, 01:19:16 AM
Dear Royell,

Obviously Trask missed that, didn't he.

But we, right here at the JFK Assassination Forum, discovered it!

-- MWT   ;)

PS  So who does your great expert have filming dark-complected Jacob, crying Holt, and headscarf-wearing Simmons walking together after the assassination?


Nobody?

     The Self Proclaimed "discoveries" made on this Forum continues reaching epidemic proportions. And then You have the gall to shame Trask. Know your place.     
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 07, 2019, 01:23:27 AM
Storing wrote:

Upon checking through The Bible of Assassination Images = "Pictures Of The Pain" by Richard Trask, there is absolutely No Mention of Darnell having filmed 3 Ladies in front of the Pergola or any mention of Darnell filming Anything in front of the Pergola area roughly 10 minutes following the Kill Shot.  I continue waiting for an explanation regarding the Detail Contrast between ALL the fuzzy Darnell film footage vs the Clarity of The 3 Ladies film footage.


My reply:

Well, Trask missed that one, didn't he?

But we, right here at the JFK Assassination Forum, discovered it!

-- MWT   ;)

PS  So, who does your great JFK assassination photo and film expert have filming dark-complected Jacob, crying Holt, and headscarf-wearing Simmons walking together after the assassination?

Nobody?

.......

Bumped for Storing
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 08, 2019, 01:06:30 AM
    Eyeball the difference in the Definition of the 3 Women film footage when they are Atop the Knoll, vs the Definition of the "MSNBC" film footage of the 3 Women when they are at the Bottom portion of the Knoll. Plus, The 3 Women have covered ground going Down the Knoll which is Not present on Any of this film footage. There is a Gap in the filming of these 3 Women. If 1 Camera Man had simply Stopped filming for whatever reason, why are we seeing a Definition Difference in the footage at the Top of the Knoll vs the footage at the Bottom of the Knoll?  If NBC/MSNBC had run this entire film snippet through their modern day Tech Machinery to clean  it up, why are we seeing a Definition Difference between the opening segment when the 3 Women are at the Top portion of the Knoll vs when the 3 Women are at the bottom of the Knoll?  Just my opinion, but I believe: (1) we are looking at 2 different film snippets, (2) filmed by 2 different Camera MEN, (3) Using 2 different Cameras/Film, (4) Producing Images of contrasting Definition. At some point, these 2 film snippets of the 3 Women were simply spliced together. Remember, the 3 Women are responding to someone standing out of sight to their Right. This could easily be the 2nd Camera Man. 2 Camera Men, shooting the same 3 Women at different points in time as they traveled across the Knoll.

Quote
Eyeball the difference in the Definition of the 3 Women film footage when they are Atop the Knoll, vs the Definition of the "MSNBC" film footage of the 3 Women when they are at the Bottom portion of the Knoll.
.

Since you refuse or can't support your ideas with evidence, here's the two gifs.

(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

And the answer is immediately obvious, the dimensions of the videos show that one is 4:3 showing that the footage is from analog NTSC 480p and, the other is 16:9 indicating a digital release of most probably 1080p, so your comparison makes no sense, it's like comparing Gumby on an old cathode ray tv to the high definition of the latest Hollywood Blockbuster on a FHD TV, it's chalk and cheese.
The MSNBC footage looks like it came from the original archive and the higher definition film has come from a newer HD Transfer.

JohnM
 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on June 08, 2019, 03:39:38 PM
I don't think Royell knows how this all works, he's probably thinking that Darnell was carrying some funky digital camcorder?

What Darnell captured was on 16mm film which would be extremely clear but had to be transferred onto video back at the station.

(https://i.postimg.cc/02SK9T7r/James-Darnell.jpg)

Over the years the video quality of these Telecine machines increases as the video capture technology improves.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nzKw8RTW/telecine.jpg)

Thank you, John..... QED.... Checkmate, Albert.  Go back to the rock whence you came under from.

The initial video archives of the Darnell film came from primitive 1963 tv station telecine equipment and this ntsc transfer is what would have been seen in early documentaries then somewhere along the line the original 16mm film was located which was then transferred with a modern telecine machine with vastly superior optics, hence the quality improvement.

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 08, 2019, 05:06:34 PM
.

Since you refuse or can't support your ideas with evidence, here's the two gifs.

(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

And the answer is immediately obvious, the dimensions of the videos show that one is 4:3 showing that the footage is from analog NTSC 480p and, the other is 16:9 indicating a digital release of most probably 1080p, so your comparison makes no sense, it's like comparing Gumby on an old cathode ray tv to the high definition of the latest Hollywood Blockbuster on a FHD TV, it's chalk and cheese.
The MSNBC footage looks like it came from the original archive and the higher definition film has come from a newer HD Transfer.

JohnM

         In addition to the Definition Difference, it is obvious that these 2 film snippets were spliced/put together at some point due to the "MSNBC" logo NOT being present on the opening segment when the 3 Women were positioned at the Top of the Knoll. You originally claimed ALL of this material was run through the Hi Tech equipment.  The reason the "MSNBC" footage is of a lower quality is because Darnell did work for NBC, and they probably did work with Darnell footage out of the NBC Archive for the MSNBC Special.  ALL of the Darnell film footage we know of IS of Low Quality which matches the low quality of the "MSNBC" tagged snippet. The "MSNBC" logo being absent from that opening segment is a dead give-a-away as to there being 2 photogs. (#2 probably being the person standing out-of-sight on the (R) of the 3 Women). Darnell worked for NBC and if NBC had access to the the footage of the 3 Women at the bottom of the Knoll, they Certainly would have had access to the footage of the 3 Women at the top of the Knoll which was filmed only seconds beforehand.   
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 08, 2019, 09:57:07 PM
         In addition to the Definition Difference, it is obvious that these 2 film snippets were spliced/put together at some point due to the "MSNBC" logo NOT being present on the opening segment when the 3 Women were positioned at the Top of the Knoll. You originally claimed ALL of this material was run through the Hi Tech equipment.  The reason the "MSNBC" footage is of a lower quality is because Darnell did work for NBC, and they probably did work with Darnell footage out of the NBC Archive for the MSNBC Special.  ALL of the Darnell film footage we know of IS of Low Quality which matches the low quality of the "MSNBC" tagged snippet. The "MSNBC" logo being absent from that opening segment is a dead give-a-away as to there being 2 photogs. (#2 probably being the person standing out-of-sight on the (R) of the 3 Women). Darnell worked for NBC and if NBC had access to the the footage of the 3 Women at the bottom of the Knoll, they Certainly would have had access to the footage of the 3 Women at the top of the Knoll which was filmed only seconds beforehand.   

Storing,

If there was a second, mysto photographer, he and Darnell must have have been very busy indeed trying to elbow each other out of the way.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 08, 2019, 10:14:39 PM
Storing,

If there was a second, mysto photographer, he and Darnell must have have been very busy indeed trying to elbow each other out of the way.

-- MWT   ;)

   We KNOW the 3 Women are responding to someone off camera to their (R).  This could easily be the same person that filmed them at the Top of the Knoll.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 09, 2019, 01:19:32 AM
If 1 person were filming these 3 women as they allegedly walked non-stop from the Top of the Knoll to the bottom of the Knoll, (a Very short distance), why is there a Stoppage/Time Gap between the 2 Short film snippets?  Answer = 2 different camera people positioned in 2 different locations on the Knoll. Just my opinion.....

Besides the cameraman who was moving into position to capture the 3 women walking down the stairs where is the other cameraman?

(https://i.postimg.cc/tJQQb1FS/Towner-near-last-frame.jpg)

Btw why all these excessively long posts which are just the same idea repeated a dozen ways?

JohnM
 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: James Hackerott on June 09, 2019, 03:04:32 AM
How do you come to that conclusion?

It's most likely that MSNBC just licenced a short piece of film for some documentary and I'd say the source was the original transfer. There is another more complete Darnell film on Youtube which is from Connecticut Public Television and also appears to come from the original transfer.

(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2TqvqwM/darnell-cptv.jpg)

The more important question is, who encoded and uploaded the bandicam version and since it has no identification, where did it come?

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

JohnM
The Bandicam video, as well as the Bandicam video of the Marilyn Sitzman interview, were both present at such clarity in Oliver Stone's JFK. I did not supply those scenes to anyone.
James
 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 09, 2019, 04:21:54 AM
The Bandicam video, as well as the Bandicam video of the Marilyn Sitzman interview, were both present at such clarity in Oliver Stone's JFK. I did not supply those scenes to anyone.
James

Thanks James, that explains why the short snippet was so clear, had no station watermark and is presented in a wider format.
For the JFK movie they also got hold of a high res copy of Zapruder, so it makes sense editing in a higher res Darnell which would also add authenticity but too bad the JFK film is filled with so many quick cuts, so whatever is there is over in a blink of an eye.

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 09, 2019, 04:30:54 PM
FYI guys, Trask credited the Sitzman clip in front of the North pergola to Darnell in "That Day in Dallas" not POTP.  How do I know this?  Robin Unger posted scans from that book a few years back.  So it's more of an appendix than the bible itself.  You don't think he lost his faith after POTP do you?  'Course not.

And have you seen Groden's copy of Darnell from his old DVD?  It's awfully bad.
Lot's of better gear came to light around 2013 did it not?*  I imagine the networks went back to the archives to supply the demand for "modern documentary"(/sigh) makers and news media requests.
They charge a pretty penny for this archive stuff and the more Darnell gets recognised for the work he did the more the price will go up.  That CPTV filmmaker probably paid peanuts for that because it was still just uncredited stock footage at that time.

*In one of those anniversary programs there is a nice clip from Wiegman(I think) at LF, he sees Jack moving toward the fence and runs ahead of him, puts his back to the fence then starts filming JFK approach him and reach out to shake hands with the gathered crowd, anyway, I liked it.

PS.  Jimmy was asking them girls what was up.  They're talking to him.  So you have to wonder, how can someone so on the ball wait for twenty plus seconds after the shots to start filming and then forget to film the windows of the building where the man sat next to him just told everyone(allegedly) the shots came from?

(https://i.gifer.com/6Vwb.gif)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 09, 2019, 10:27:54 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictures_of_the_Pain
10+ years of research, around $80 on ebay today which is less than I paid, just don't expect great assassination images, it's more about the stories behind the POTP and what see in them, people, timing etc.  Chapters about the first and third camera cars were probably the most interesting to me.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 09, 2019, 11:04:37 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictures_of_the_Pain
10+ years of research, around $80 on ebay today which is less than I paid, just don't expect great assassination images, it's more about the stories behind the POTP and what see in them, people, timing etc.  Chapters about the first and third camera cars were probably the most interesting to me.

    I do Not have "That Day In Dallas" so I would need to see how Trask worded the Sitzman interview. I am curious as to the wording that was used due to Darnell having arranged/conducted numerous interviews immediately after the assassination. I do have Trask's "POTP" and he makes absolutely no mention of Darnell FILMING Sitzman in that book.
   You mention being interested in the Camera Cars info in Trask's "POTP". Personally, I thought the revelation in that book that Wiegman saw/ran into SA Lem Johns UP at the Top of the Knoll to be groundbreaking info. SA Lem Johns claimed he jumped out of the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car and ran up Elm St toward LBJ's convertible when he heard shot(s) being fired. SA Johns also claimed he physically Never left Elm St. Wiegman seeing Johns Up atop the Knoll is significant as not one single JFK Assassination image whether it be still photo or film footage shows SA Johns at any time on Elm St. Also, there is Not 1 single Elm St eyewitness that Ever claimed to see SA Lem Johns: (1) jumping out of the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car, or (2) Running up Elm St toward the LBJ Convertible, or (3) Standing anywhere on Elm St at Any point that day. Of course, there are numerous eyewitnesses that claim to have seen an unidentified SS Man in the parking lot/Knoll area immediately following the assassination. These eyewitness accounts include Dallas PD.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 09, 2019, 11:32:55 PM
Like I just told Brian(re:Frazier), revelations aren't groundbreaking until they are proven and IMO either Lems has been erased from the evidence or he got back in his own car almost immeadiatly.  The only other alternative is that he ran past Zapruder and out of sight and I can find no reason for him to do that even if shots came from the knoll, simple because there is no evidence that people from his position in the street were in the slightest bit interested in that area at that time.
 
Trask never interviewed Sitzman about the footage, it's just part of a process during his ongoing research, he makes new connections as hopefully we all do/will.  Little things that add to the whole.
Darnell and the rest of the reaction gang get pushed out of the carpark/RRY after around 4-5mins.  Trask was probably trying to track him after that point and has given the Sitzman footage to him because it's his best educated guess.  Either that or that same clip came on a reel that had Darnell footage on it IRDK but it's very rarely as easy as that right?
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 10, 2019, 08:38:02 PM
I believe SA Lems Johns did Not get back inside the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car. Johns eventually arrived at AF1 AFTER LBJ had been there awhile.. If Johns had jumped back inside that Follow-Up Car he would have arrived at AF1 when LBJ did. (Johns was assigned to the LBJ SS Detail). I think Johns arrived at AF1 when Jackie did. To me, there is No Way SA Lem Johns could have jumped out of that vehicle in the middle of Elm St and run up the street toward the LBJ convertible and Not be captured on Any assassination images or be sighted by Any of the eyewitnesses inside Dealey Plaza. That's just flat-out Unbelievable. Wiegman filmed JFK all the time so he would know the different SS Agents. I believe Wiegman's story of seeing SA Lem Johns at the Top of the Knoll.
That's why Trask's wording regarding the Sitzman Interview is Important with regard to the Factual Record. Trask very well could have used his own connect-the-dots thought process. He also did this at times in "POTP". Like I said before, it is Not unusual for assassination film snippets filmed by different camera men to be Spliced together for JFK Specials or VHS/DVD presentations.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Mytton on June 11, 2019, 10:30:23 AM
1) Towner.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmtXSGNt/towner-man-run.gif)

2) Darnell from JFK the Movie.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

3) Darnell from MSNBC
(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)

Pink=3 women. Red=Darnell.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JT2t00B/Dealey-Plaza-aerial2.jpg)

JohnM

Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 11, 2019, 04:05:27 PM
1) Towner.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmtXSGNt/towner-man-run.gif)

2) Darnell from JFK the Movie.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

3) Darnell from MSNBC
(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)

Pink=3 women. Red=Darnell.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JT2t00B/Dealey-Plaza-aerial2.jpg)

JohnM

    Regarding the B/W Overhead Still Shot you have posted, what do you believe is scattered across the Knoll Grass between the Stemmons Sign and The Pergola? Do you think that might be Flowers? If so, that B/W Overhead still frame would have been taken well after the Towner snippet which is supposed to have been filmed roughly 10 minutes After the Kill Shot. The Towner film footage does Not show Anything scattered across the Knoll Grass as the Suited Man runs across that section of the Knoll.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 11, 2019, 09:37:41 PM
    Yeah. An overhead still frame that alleges to show the 3 Women and Darnell on the Knoll Well Over 10 minutes following the Kill Shot is "wasting our time". That would be because Your Conclusion(s) are Not based on Fact. For starters, YOU see a Suited Man running across the Knoll on the Towner Film and YOU claim as a FACT that this Suited Man is Darnell having Finished Filming the interview of Sitzman standing by the Zapruder Perch. With, (1) the Towner Film having been Time Stamped as being filmed 10 minutes after the Kill Shot, vs (2) Your claiming Darnell had finished filming the Sitzman interview and Now the Towner film shows him running across the Knoll to film the 3 Women in front of him = do we Know for a FACT that the Sitzman Interview at the Zapruder Perch was conducted LESS than 10 minutes following the Kill Shot? This would mean that Only 8 minutes after the Kill Shot,  Darnell, the Interviewer, and Sitzman had ALL gathered together and put themselves into position by the pedestal for that filmed interview. On top of that, as we see in that interview, Sitzman already has a lighted cigarette in hand and appears quite calm and coherent when Only 8 minutes earlier she had witnessed the POTUS getting his head blown off.  Please take the time to gather FACTS and then Think your Opinion(s) through.     

Storing,

How ignorant are you?

There were no overhead shots of the grassy knoll area at that time.

Mytton used that one only for illustrative purposes, to show us where he believes 
the three women and Darnell were in relation to each other just before, during, and just after the Towner film "captured all four of them on film.

D'oh

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 11, 2019, 10:04:11 PM
I believe SA Lems Johns did Not get back inside the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car. Johns eventually arrived at AF1 AFTER LBJ had been there awhile.. If Johns had jumped back inside that Follow-Up Car he would have arrived at AF1 when LBJ did. (Johns was assigned to the LBJ SS Detail). I think Johns arrived at AF1 when Jackie did. To me, there is No Way SA Lem Johns could have jumped out of that vehicle in the middle of Elm St and run up the street toward the LBJ convertible and Not be captured on Any assassination images or be sighted by Any of the eyewitnesses inside Dealey Plaza. That's just flat-out Unbelievable. Wiegman filmed JFK all the time so he would know the different SS Agents. I believe Wiegman's story of seeing SA Lem Johns at the Top of the Knoll.
That's why Trask's wording regarding the Sitzman Interview is Important with regard to the Factual Record. Trask very well could have used his own connect-the-dots thought process. He also did this at times in "POTP". Like I said before, it is Not unusual for assassination film snippets filmed by different camera men to be Spliced together for JFK Specials or VHS/DVD presentations.

We don't even know if Lems got fully out of his car, let alone halfway to LBJ, so I am assuming he did not(especially the latter) because of exactly what you said, there's no evidence for it.
Wiegman met Johns at the TM, ask yourself how and why?  Why did Johns group go to the mart and not follow the limo to PH?  Seems obvious to me, his driver lost the lead cars and so went to the designated next stop like every other vehicle behind them.
Wiegman then tells of Johns himself going around gathering intel and when he hears the news, tells Dave, of all people and invites him to join him, Askins as well, on a trip to the hospital in a police car(which I thoroughly believe btw).  Nice to have friends.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 12, 2019, 01:07:20 AM
We don't even know if Lems got fully out of his car, let alone halfway to LBJ, so I am assuming he did not(especially the latter) because of exactly what you said, there's no evidence for it.
Wiegman met Johns at the TM, ask yourself how and why?  Why did Johns group go to the mart and not follow the limo to PH?  Seems obvious to me, his driver lost the lead cars and so went to the designated next stop like every other vehicle behind them.
Wiegman then tells of Johns himself going around gathering intel and when he hears the news, tells Dave, of all people and invites him to join him, Askins as well, on a trip to the hospital in a police car(which I thoroughly believe btw).  Nice to have friends.

Wiegman met Johns at the Teller Machine??

The Mall???

The Mailbox?????
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 12, 2019, 02:00:56 AM
We don't even know if Lems got fully out of his car, let alone halfway to LBJ, so I am assuming he did not(especially the latter) because of exactly what you said, there's no evidence for it.
Wiegman met Johns at the TM, ask yourself how and why?  Why did Johns group go to the mart and not follow the limo to PH?  Seems obvious to me, his driver lost the lead cars and so went to the designated next stop like every other vehicle behind them.
Wiegman then tells of Johns himself going around gathering intel and when he hears the news, tells Dave, of all people and invites him to join him, Askins as well, on a trip to the hospital in a police car(which I thoroughly believe btw).  Nice to have friends.

    SA Lem Johns filed his "Original Report" on 11/29/63. I'm paraphrasing, but in John's "Original Report" he flat-out Details getting Out of the car and Running toward the Vice President's car and then hearing the 3rd shot fired. The SA Lem Johns "Original Report" would be the Evidence of what He/Lem Johns allegedly did physically upon hearing shots being fired. SA Johns also goes on within that report to say that he got a ride to Parkland Hospital with, "White House movie men".  Johns goes on to add that he arrived at Parkland Hospital at "approx 12:45 - 12:50 pm". So per SA Johns he got completely out of the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car & then ran up the middle of Elm St. Yet, there is Not a single assassination image of Johns doing Any of this, or Any Dealey Plaza Eyewitness that Ever reported seeing it.   
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 12, 2019, 09:24:09 PM
At the end of the day it comes down to making logical assumptions based on the evidence and within the context of this environment what I believe would be court accepted "proof beyond a reasonable doubt".

1. Both videos show 3 people walking side by side, with virtually no one else close by.
2. Both videos show 3 people walking away from the Elm street monument.
3. Both videos show same 3 people heading the same direction.
4. Both videos show a lady on our far right wearing a light headscarf.
5. Both videos show the person in the center to have a light coloured head.
6. Both videos show the person on our far left has a dark head.
7. Both videos show that all three are wearing clothing which appears dark in shadow.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CMtcRgZf/3-women.gif)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sg3HrJQn/Darnellgirlsa.gif)

Now sure there is a possibility that after these 3 people in the far off gif left the frame they were replaced by another three people that just happened to fill in all the above criteria but we all know from our personal lives that this possibility is extremely remote, so while it may never be proven to the illusive 100% Iacoletti standard, the reality is that these three people would have to be the same three.

JohnM

John,

Your analysis is spot on.

The three women are, from left-to-right, self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob and her two Texas School Book Company colleagues, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons -- the same three gals who were "caught" in the Zapruder film standing near the Stemmons sign.

Not Westbrook's "Uhh, probably (lilly-white) Carol Reed, Gloria Calvery, and me, Karen Westbrook," as guessed-at by Westbrook ... from behind and 54 years after-the-fact.

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 13, 2019, 01:12:47 AM
    SA Lem Johns filed his "Original Report" on 11/29/63. I'm paraphrasing, but in John's "Original Report" he flat-out Details getting Out of the car and Running toward the Vice President's car and then hearing the 3rd shot fired. The SA Lem Johns "Original Report" would be the Evidence of what He/Lem Johns allegedly did physically upon hearing shots being fired. SA Johns also goes on within that report to say that he got a ride to Parkland Hospital with, "White House movie men". Johns goes on to add that he arrived at Parkland Hospital at "approx 12:45 - 12:50 pm". So per SA Johns he got completely out of the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car & then ran up the middle of Elm St. Yet, there is Not a single assassination image of Johns doing Any of this, or Any Dealey Plaza Eyewitness that Ever reported seeing it.   

DP-TM= 5mins
@TM for 5mins
TM-PH= 5mins
NP.

Also, "SA Johns also goes on within that report to say that he got a ride to Parkland Hospital with, "White House movie men"...
Grabbing a police car and inviting Wiegman and Atkins to join him actually fits the bill if you allow yourself to read it that way and Wiegman footage on the way to Parkland shows he was in a covered vehicle, not a convertible.

Circumstantial evidence, that's all recollections are.
There is no doubt that Johns was technically in a good position to hear something coming from the building, near it, or even the GK, like the occupants of the FUC were seconds before but just like Hill, his vehicle was travelling too fast for him to jump out and run forward, he would have had to have waited for it to slow like Hill did and since he was further back in the chain(reaction) I highly doubt he reacted before the "third shot".  Then we have Wiegman's limo frame @8secs post Z313, that tells me Johns is inside his car, so whatever he did doesn't strike me as important.  Besides, what else is he gonna say, that he didn't recognise the sounds as significant and just sat there wondering what was going on, like 99% of the people present that day seem to be doing?
These same 99% it turns out, all circumstantiously(!) tell us they heard shots but how many are seen reacting to them in the hard evidence? 
0.0!
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 13, 2019, 03:28:36 AM
DP-TM= 5mins
@TM for 5mins
TM-PH= 5mins
NP.

Also, "SA Johns also goes on within that report to say that he got a ride to Parkland Hospital with, "White House movie men"...
Grabbing a police car and inviting Wiegman and Atkins to join him actually fits the bill if you allow yourself to read it that way and Wiegman footage on the way to Parkland shows he was in a covered vehicle, not a convertible.

Circumstantial evidence, that's all recollections are.
There is no doubt that Johns was technically in a good position to hear something coming from the building, near it, or even the GK, like the occupants of the FUC were seconds before but just like Hill, his vehicle was travelling too fast for him to jump out and run forward, he would have had to have waited for it to slow like Hill did and since he was further back in the chain(reaction) I highly doubt he reacted before the "third shot".  Then we have Wiegman's limo frame @8secs post Z313, that tells me Johns is inside his car, so whatever he did doesn't strike me as important.  Besides, what else is he gonna say, that he didn't recognise the sounds as significant and just sat there wondering what was going on, like 99% of the people present that day seem to be doing?
These same 99% it turns out, all circumstantiously(!) tell us they heard shots but how many are seen reacting to them in the hard evidence? 
0.0!

What does any of this Lem Johns stuff have to do with whether or not Darnell filmed, in two separate clips, Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons 1) stepping down from the Pergola Patio, and 2) walking either across the Grassy Knoll's grass, or up the Elm Street sidewalk, a few minutes after the assassination?

Did I miss something?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 13, 2019, 05:12:55 PM
DP-TM= 5mins
@TM for 5mins
TM-PH= 5mins
NP.

Also, "SA Johns also goes on within that report to say that he got a ride to Parkland Hospital with, "White House movie men"...
Grabbing a police car and inviting Wiegman and Atkins to join him actually fits the bill if you allow yourself to read it that way and Wiegman footage on the way to Parkland shows he was in a covered vehicle, not a convertible.

Circumstantial evidence, that's all recollections are.
There is no doubt that Johns was technically in a good position to hear something coming from the building, near it, or even the GK, like the occupants of the FUC were seconds before but just like Hill, his vehicle was travelling too fast for him to jump out and run forward, he would have had to have waited for it to slow like Hill did and since he was further back in the chain(reaction) I highly doubt he reacted before the "third shot".  Then we have Wiegman's limo frame @8secs post Z313, that tells me Johns is inside his car, so whatever he did doesn't strike me as important.  Besides, what else is he gonna say, that he didn't recognise the sounds as significant and just sat there wondering what was going on, like 99% of the people present that day seem to be doing?
These same 99% it turns out, all circumstantiously(!) tell us they heard shots but how many are seen reacting to them in the hard evidence? 
0.0!

    Just so we are clear, are you Claiming the film footage that shows Wiegman running from the Knoll North Curb and into the middle of Elm St as he Races after his original camera car/camera car #1 is Bogus? I am Not aware of Any images showing Wiegman walking down Elm St or climbing into a Cop Car. There is no visual or verbal verification to support any of that having happened. 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 13, 2019, 06:15:45 PM
    Just so we are clear, are you Claiming the film footage that shows Wiegman running from the Knoll North Curb and into the middle of Elm St as he Races after his original camera car/camera car #1 is Bogus? I am Not aware of Any images showing Wiegman walking down Elm St or climbing into a Cop Car. There is no visual or verbal verification to support any of that having happened.

Storing,

What does this have to do with the subject of this thread?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 13, 2019, 08:38:05 PM
You already know the answer, stop diverting the thread.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 13, 2019, 09:02:00 PM
    Just so we are clear, are you Claiming the film footage that shows Wiegman running from the Knoll North Curb and into the middle of Elm St as he Races after his original camera car/camera car #1 is Bogus? I am Not aware of Any images showing Wiegman walking down Elm St or climbing into a Cop Car. There is no visual or verbal verification to support any of that having happened.

The TRADE MART, that's what TM means and that's what Wiegman claims happened there, he says Atkins and himself were invited to join Lem Johns on a trip to Parkland after Johns found out that the President was hit.  Johns grabbed a cop car at the TM because that's where his driver went first, same thing happened to Wiegman and Atkins, their driver too went straight to the next designated stop.  It's all in POTP(which was written by Trask, the man who claims Darnell took the Sitzman footage, there's the link, like we need one), the CC1 chapter.
B/W footage taken from inside a closed vehicle shows that very car just at the approach to PH, you may have seen it but not recognised it for what it is, it's from Wiegman, he claims he switched cars at the TM and I believe that footage is his and so confirms it.  If I find it again I'll let you know but would you know Wiegman footage from any other?  Might be yet another sidebar, which unless I've missed something are not against the rules here...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 13, 2019, 09:47:29 PM
The TRADE MART, that's what TM means and that's what Wiegman claims happened there, he says Atkins and himself were invited to join Lem Johns on a trip to Parkland after Johns found out that the President was hit.  Johns grabbed a cop car at the TM because that's where his driver went first, same thing happened to Wiegman and Atkins, their driver too went straight to the next designated stop.  It's all in POTP(which was written by Trask, the man who claims Darnell took the Sitzman footage, there's the link, like we need one), the CC1 chapter.
B/W footage taken from inside a closed vehicle shows that very car just at the approach to PH, you may have seen it but not recognised it for what it is, it's from Wiegman, he claims he switched cars at the TM and I believe that footage is his and so confirms it.  If I find it again I'll let you know but would you know Wiegman footage from any other?  Might be yet another sidebar, which unless I've missed something are not against the rules here...

   Thanks.  I would appreciate seeing that footage if possible. Seems we got 1 guy railing about our discussion because he Knows absolutely Nothing about the Details we are discussing. This is much like someone walking up and butting into an on-going conversation with the stimulating comment, "What you guys talkin' about?". 
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 14, 2019, 01:05:40 PM
Listen, IDK but I'd wager that that footage was sold as uncredited stock.  It happens.  Jimmy worked for NBC or whoever and that's their property, get it?
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 14, 2019, 08:26:48 PM
The TRADE MART, that's what TM means and that's what Wiegman claims happened there, he says Atkins and himself were invited to join Lem Johns on a trip to Parkland after Johns found out that the President was hit.  Johns grabbed a cop car at the TM because that's where his driver went first, same thing happened to Wiegman and Atkins, their driver too went straight to the next designated stop.  It's all in POTP(which was written by Trask, the man who claims Darnell took the Sitzman footage, there's the link, like we need one), the CC1 chapter.
B/W footage taken from inside a closed vehicle shows that very car just at the approach to PH, you may have seen it but not recognised it for what it is, it's from Wiegman, he claims he switched cars at the TM and I believe that footage is his and so confirms it.  If I find it again I'll let you know but would you know Wiegman footage from any other?  Might be yet another sidebar, which unless I've missed something are not against the rules here...

     In "Pictures Of The Pain", Trask quotes Wiegman  as to SA Lem Johns piling into Wiegman's Camera Car #1 as it went down Elm St. Per Wiegman, this would put Wiegman and Johns in the Same Car while they were both Still on Elm St inside Dealey Plaza.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 15, 2019, 07:21:40 AM
     In "Pictures Of The Pain", Trask quotes Wiegman  as to SA Lem Johns piling into Wiegman's Camera Car #1 as it went down Elm St. Per Wiegman, this would put Wiegman and Johns in the Same Car while they were both Still on Elm St inside Dealey Plaza.

Only in Trask's head(and in yours, mine and hundreds of others who've read the same thing).  But in the real evidence Johns just isn't there, not in Atkins, in Wiegman or Dillard.

Consider this, if a half decent agent commandeered CC1 on that street and at that time, you think the driver would have been allowed to wait for Atkins and his precious brand new camera?  Nup, IMO they would have been gone and I guess in yours too, since you believe Johns reacted to the sound of gunfire.
.
And Atkins did not dive head first back into the car, he had to wait for it to fully stop, that's the one and only reason why CC1 is still on Elm after a full minute, and probably twenty seconds after the last Dillard snap.  Atkins had a very expensive brand new camera(imagine an iphone the size of a briefcase, brand new and 100 times more fragile) and was not going to chance breaking it for anyone, especially on an unscheduled stop where he didn't even realise what had actually happened or even why they stopped.  As seen in Couch and as he hints toward to Trask, Atkins hit the GK completely clueless and after being directly at the intersection during "the third shot"™.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 15, 2019, 07:34:51 AM
Yes it those three women again and as you already pointed out that is Darnell chasing them, very nice catch, get with it paisan.

As you can see, I expressed an opinion earlier but it's only votes that count, right.  And perhaps one day when we've all understood the significance of identifying these ladies we might just not vote again.  You wanna keep talking about these little girls?  Go right ahead, who is stopping you? TTFN.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 15, 2019, 08:11:38 AM
As you can see, I expressed an opinion earlier but it's only votes that count, right.  And perhaps one day when we've all understood the significance of identifying these ladies we might just not vote again.  You wanna keep talking about these little girls?  Go right ahead, who is stopping you? TTFN.

Barry,

The significance of those three women is threefold:

1) In addition to their being filmed up close by Darnell and from a distance by Towner, they were also filmed from behind by Zapruder as they were standing by the Stemmons sign, watching the motorcade.

2)  Contrary to what was once commonly believed, none of those three women are Gloria Calvery. For two reasons: 1) none of them, as we can see in Darnell, look like her, and 2) as can be deduced from the Towner film, none of them ran up to the TSBD steps right after the assassination -- as Calvery did, according to Billy Lovelady and Joe Molina.

3)  Since big, tall Gloria Calvery is none of those women, taking into consideration not only her physiology but the statements she and her three colleagues made to the FBI, it's reasonable to assume that she's the big, tall black-blouse and black-headscarf-wearing gal in Zapruder (and on the TSBD steps about 25 seconds after the assassination in Couch-Darnell), instead.

Which has a bearing on the all-important Prayer Person issue, as well as on the post-assassination movements of Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, Vicki Adams, and, ultimately, Lee Harvey Oswald.

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Royell Storing on June 15, 2019, 11:53:22 PM
Only in Trask's head(and in yours, mine and hundreds of others who've read the same thing).  But in the real evidence Johns just isn't there, not in Atkins, in Wiegman or Dillard.

Consider this, if a half decent agent commandeered CC1 on that street and at that time, you think the driver would have been allowed to wait for Atkins and his precious brand new camera?  Nup, IMO they would have been gone and I guess in yours too, since you believe Johns reacted to the sound of gunfire.
.
And Atkins did not dive head first back into the car, he had to wait for it to fully stop, that's the one and only reason why CC1 is still on Elm after a full minute, and probably twenty seconds after the last Dillard snap.  Atkins had a very expensive brand new camera(imagine an iphone the size of a briefcase, brand new and 100 times more fragile) and was not going to chance breaking it for anyone, especially on an unscheduled stop where he didn't even realise what had actually happened or even why they stopped.  As seen in Couch and as he hints toward to Trask, Atkins hit the GK completely clueless and after being directly at the intersection during "the third shot"™.

  You and I differ as to the Reason SA Johns Lied about jumping out of the LBJ SS Car and then running down Elm St. With Wiegman having seen Johns UP at the Top of the Knoll, Johns and the SS knew they had to cook up a story to at least place Johns Outside of the SS Car after the Kill Shot. The SS probably figured they could quibble as to their claim of Johns staying physically on Elm St vs Wiegman's story of running into John's UP at the Top of the Knoll IF these 2 conflicting accounts was Ever raised. Just my opinion, but I believe that SA Johns was Never seated inside the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car. I believe he was assigned a physical position somewhere inside Dealey Plaza that day. The reason the SS did Not want to admit that Johns was positioned inside Dealey Plaza that day is the Real Mystery. The sighting of a SS Agent on foot inside Dealey Plaza immediately after the Kill Shot by both Law Enforcement and general eyewitnesses has always been categorically denied by the SS. Wiegman having encountered SA Johns at the Top of the Knoll corroborates those reported sightings of an SS Agent on foot inside Dealey Plaza.
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 16, 2019, 01:41:05 AM
Fair enough
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 16, 2019, 03:11:10 AM

3)  Since big, tall Gloria Calvery is none of those women, taking into consideration not only her physiology but the statements she and her three colleagues made to the FBI, it's reasonable to assume that she's the big, tall black-blouse and black-headscarf-wearing gal in Zapruder (and on the TSBD steps about 25 seconds after the assassination in Couch-Darnell), instead.

Which has a bearing on the all-important Prayer Person issue, as well as on the post-assassination movements of Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, Vicki Adams, and, ultimately, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Sorry then, how does the Calvary find effect out understanding of PM in your opinion?
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 16, 2019, 03:35:48 AM
Sorry then, how does the Calvary find effect our understanding of PM in your opinion?

Barry,

Standing where she was on the north side of Elm Street during the motorcade, big, tall, black-blouse and black-headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery had a excellent view of the fatal head shot.

Buell Wesley Frazier said that when a crying girl (Calvery) "came by" the steps and announced that JFK had been shot, he and a "Sarah" who was standing near him at the time turned towards each other in astonishment and spoke with each other for a few seconds.

When we compare the orientations of Frazier and Prayer Person in Wiegman, and compare them again about 20 seconds later in Couch-Darnell (in which Calvery can be seen on one of the lower steps talking with Billy Lovelady or... gasp ... Joe Molina), we can see that they (Frazier and Prayer Person) have turned towards each other at some point during the gap between the two films, as though they're speaking with each other about what they've just heard Gloria Calvery bellow out to Lovelady (or Molina), below.

Also, Chris Davidson's image-enhancement work suggests that Prayer Person was either Mary Tyler Moore or Sarah Stanton.

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Barry Pollard on June 16, 2019, 09:01:26 AM
Barry,

Standing where she was on the north side of Elm Street during the motorcade, big, tall, black-blouse and black-headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery had a excellent view of the fatal head shot.

Buell Wesley Frazier said that when a crying girl (Calvery) "came by" the steps and announced that JFK had been shot, he and a "Sarah" who was standing near him at the time turned towards each other in astonishment and spoke with each other for a few seconds.

When we compare the orientations of Frazier and Prayer Person in Wiegman, and compare them again about 20 seconds later in Couch-Darnell (in which Calvery can be seen on one of the lower steps talking with Billy Lovelady or... gasp ... Joe Molina), we can see that they (Frazier and Prayer Person) have turned towards each other at some point during the gap between the two films, as though they're speaking with each other about what they've just heard Gloria Calvery bellow out to Lovelady (or Molina), below.

Also, Chris Davidson's image-enhancement work suggests that Prayer Person was either Mary Tyler Moore or Sarah Stanton.

-- MWT  ;)

Okay, you too huh?  Xxxx me...
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 16, 2019, 09:16:09 PM
The pertinent part of the Towner film:

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sqkOATiPTRk/W7DNxeK1b9I/AAAAAAAACbU/iwsvC5zr4AEO1Baql7VTHg78v8gq73ryACLcBGAs/s1600/towner2.gif)
(John Iacoletti thinks they might be men.)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Tom Scully on July 16, 2019, 09:40:06 PM
Let him run with this. His determined focus influenced me to see something, say something.

I am seeing five, possibly six.... outward appearance, all men.

......
Quote
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/765693381/Billionaire-philanthropist-David-Rockefeller-dies-at-age-101.html

(https://www.deseretnews.com/images/article/hires/1817674/1817674.jpg)
FILE - In this Nov. 28, 1967, file photo, the five Rockefeller Brothers pose for photos in New York as they gather to receive gold medals from the National Institute of social sciences. From left are: David Rockefeller, President of the Chase Manhattan Bank; Winthrop Rockefeller, Governor of Arkansas; Frank Pace, President of the NISS; John D. Rockefeller 3rd, Chairman of the Rockefeller Foundation; Nelson Rockefeller, Governor of New York; and Laurence Rockefeller, a conservation adviser to President Johnson. ....
.........
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 16, 2019, 10:32:14 PM
Let him run with this. His determined focus influenced me to see something, say something.

I am seeing five, possibly six.... outward appearance, all men.
.........

Dear oh dear Scully,

They look like blobs to me.

What evidence do you have that they are men?

Where, after all, are their "Baby Boy Blue" headscarves?

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Tom Scully on July 16, 2019, 10:49:41 PM
Dear oh dear Scully,

They look like blobs to me.

What evidence do you have that they are men?

Where, after all, are their "Baby Boy Blue" headscarves?

--  MWT   ;)

You gotta admit, the 5 or 6 are nattily dressed, ala Mr. Charles!:

(http://jfkforum.com/images/DevineNattilyRedacted.jpg)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on July 16, 2019, 11:04:13 PM
You gotta admit, the 5 or 6 are nattily dressed, ala Mr. Charles!:

(http://jfkforum.com/images/DevineNattilyRedacted.jpg)

Dear oh dear Scully,

Mr. Charles?

Oh, my goodness, wasn't George DeMohrenschildt somehow associated with him?

You know, Oswald's much older and presumably wealthier friend whom CI's Clare Edward Petty concluded, based on some decoded WW II Venona intercepts, had been a long-term "KGB" "illegal" since 1938, or so?

Hmm

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 16, 2019, 11:58:20 PM
Let him run with this. His determined focus influenced me to see something, say something.

I am seeing five, possibly six.... outward appearance, all men.

Amazing what you can glean from a sharp image rather than just squinting at a blurry image and making assumptions.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/men-blobs.jpg)

Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Tom Scully on July 18, 2019, 12:48:49 AM
Dear oh dear Scully,

Mr. Charles?

Oh, my goodness, wasn't George DeMohrenschildt somehow associated with him?

You know, Oswald's much older and presumably wealthier friend whom CI's Clare Edward Petty concluded, based on some decoded WW II Venona intercepts, had been a long-term "KGB" "illegal" since 1938, or so?

Hmm

--  MWT   ;)

My goodness, indeed! I am assuming you still have internet access but are temporarily incommunicado.

Your song does not sound familiar.... perhaps if you were to hum a few bars? At one point it was decided more DeMohrenschildt and Charles was
not none of our business. (bottom paragraph) And who was 3. ....Reckret?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=64083&search=charles_and+nattily#relPageId=2&tab=page
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DevineNattilyUnredacted.jpg)
Title: Re: The Three People Walking Across The Pergola Patio
Post by: Thomas Graves on September 20, 2019, 11:03:16 AM
It's quite a challenging juggling act for Kamp, Iacoletti, Giovanna-Zambanini and Unger, et al.

Dark-complected, self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob seems to be the spanner in their works.

-- MWT   ;)

Edited, because I think Linda now believes that the three gals on the Pergola Patio in Towner (and in the two short Darnell clips) are, from left to right, Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt, and Sharon Simmons, and that they are also standing by the Stemmons sign in Zapruder.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about that, Linda. 

--  Tommy  ;)