JFK Assassination Forum

Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Charles Collins on May 07, 2019, 07:44:23 PM

Title: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Charles Collins on May 07, 2019, 07:44:23 PM
On page 371 of "Pictures of the Pain," author Richard B. Trask quotes Thomas M. Atkins:

"We came to the end of [Main Street] and made that right-hand turn, and were going directly at the [Texas School Book] Depository. Just as we turned, I remember looking at my watch, and it was 12:30, and just as I looked at my watch I heard an explosion.  ... And then immediately following there were two more quick explosions, and my stomach just went into a knot.

The attached animated GIF is from the Hughes Film at the approximate time that many believe the first shot was fired. I have slowed the animation down for demonstration purposes. It appears to me that Thomas Atkins (camera car #1, yellow convertible, right rear) raises his left arm to look at his watch just about the time that the helmet of the motorcycle cop (McLain) passes in between the camera and Atkins. If I am correct, this could be visual evidence that the first shot occurred at that time.

Please take a look at this and any other versions of the film or other films and photos and let me know your opinion about this possible evidence. Thank you very much.

(https://i.vgy.me/ixmuib.gif)
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Sim Heninger on May 13, 2019, 12:11:43 AM
Hey, Charles,

I'm not able at the moment to view better copies of the Hughes film, so I'll take your word for it that Atkins looks at his watch in the clip you've posted.

What I know about this segment is that it does cover the instant when the first shot shot was fired, at Z160 plus-or-minus.  McLain on his cycle has just passed out of the frame, and the walking cop (D.V.Harkness) is still in the frame, when the first shot happens.  So you are good on your timing there.

The Zapruder film actually shows the 1st camera car on Houston Street in a few frames, between the people lining the sidewalk.  At Z230, after the first two shots, the car with Atkins   has passed the alley between the Criminal Courts and Records buildings.  I think that works with your timing as well.  I'm pretty sure you have to have the absolute full Z frames to see the motorcade on Houston, since obviously Zapruder's focus was the limousine, but I know he filmed the cars moving slowly along DURING THE SHOTS.  If I remember right you can see the red sun visors and convertible top cover on the Mayor's Comet,  the greenhouse of the next car, which was a chevy sedan with the "pool" reporters, and the yellow first camera car...not sure what color the second camera car was.

To me, these little details are what assassination research is all about, and I think you might be the discoverer of the Atkins watch look.

Thanks for a cool thread,
Sim 

Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Royell Storing on May 13, 2019, 04:39:31 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hey, Charles,

I'm not able at the moment to view better copies of the Hughes film, so I'll take your word for it that Atkins looks at his watch in the clip you've posted.

What I know about this segment is that it does cover the instant when the first shot shot was fired, at Z160 plus-or-minus.  McLain on his cycle has just passed out of the frame, and the walking cop (D.V.Harkness) is still in the frame, when the first shot happens.  So you are good on your timing there.

The Zapruder film actually shows the 1st camera car on Houston Street in a few frames, between the people lining the sidewalk.  At Z230, after the first two shots, the car with Atkins   has passed the alley between the Criminal Courts and Records buildings.  I think that works with your timing as well.  I'm pretty sure you have to have the absolute full Z frames to see the motorcade on Houston, since obviously Zapruder's focus was the limousine, but I know he filmed the cars moving slowly along DURING THE SHOTS.  If I remember right you can see the red sun visors and convertible top cover on the Mayor's Comet,  the greenhouse of the next car, which was a chevy sedan with the "pool" reporters, and the yellow first camera car...not sure what color the second camera car was.

To me, these little details are what assassination research is all about, and I think you might be the discoverer of the Atkins watch look.

Thanks for a cool thread,
Sim

     Your above description of what can be seen on the Current Zapruder Film that John Q. Public is permitted to eyeball = Exactly why Zapruder allegedly Not filming the JFK Limo turning onto Elm is a joke. Even Sitzman when being interviewed by Tink Thompson for his 1966 "Six Seconds In Dallas" reported being able to see the JFK Limo/Motorcade coming down Houston from their elevated perch viewing position. The weak excuse proffered for the Gap on the Zapruder Film being because Zapruder was unable to see the JFK Limo on Houston St is pure Hokum. Not only did Sitzman recount seeing the JFK Limo/Motorcade coming down Houston St with her naked eyes to Tink Thompson, Zapruder should have had an even better look at the JFK Limo/Motorcade due to the ZOOM SETTING he allegedly had his camera set on. Zapruder was viewing Houston St with what was close to a Telescope.   
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Charles Collins on May 14, 2019, 12:36:16 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hey, Charles,

I'm not able at the moment to view better copies of the Hughes film, so I'll take your word for it that Atkins looks at his watch in the clip you've posted.

What I know about this segment is that it does cover the instant when the first shot shot was fired, at Z160 plus-or-minus.  McLain on his cycle has just passed out of the frame, and the walking cop (D.V.Harkness) is still in the frame, when the first shot happens.  So you are good on your timing there.

The Zapruder film actually shows the 1st camera car on Houston Street in a few frames, between the people lining the sidewalk.  At Z230, after the first two shots, the car with Atkins   has passed the alley between the Criminal Courts and Records buildings.  I think that works with your timing as well.  I'm pretty sure you have to have the absolute full Z frames to see the motorcade on Houston, since obviously Zapruder's focus was the limousine, but I know he filmed the cars moving slowly along DURING THE SHOTS.  If I remember right you can see the red sun visors and convertible top cover on the Mayor's Comet,  the greenhouse of the next car, which was a chevy sedan with the "pool" reporters, and the yellow first camera car...not sure what color the second camera car was.

To me, these little details are what assassination research is all about, and I think you might be the discoverer of the Atkins watch look.

Thanks for a cool thread,
Sim

Thanks, I am hoping that my imagination hasn?t affected my perception of this such that I am seeing something that isn?t there. That does happen sometimes to some of us. I have looked at Robin Unger?s YouTube clip of this film which he posted to make a point regarding motorcycle cop Baker. And the Atkins watch arm movement is not as apparent to me. So hopefully someone will be able to view a better quality video clip of this and let us know what they see.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: James Hackerott on May 14, 2019, 02:35:44 AM
Charles,
This stabilized version shows a little more detail, but I still wouldn't want to say he is checking his watch (he could be, but I can't tell). There is a slight 'interference' just as the motorcycle rider (McLain) leaves the frame to the left. There is a film splice just at this time when Atkins appears to jerk his head.

(https://i.imgur.com/a1EMgTe.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/KA8FTzU.gif)

Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Larry Trotter on May 14, 2019, 02:54:21 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
On page 371 of "Pictures of the Pain," author Richard B. Trask quotes Thomas M. Atkins:

"We came to the end of [Main Street] and made that right-hand turn, and were going directly at the [Texas School Book] Depository. Just as we turned, I remember looking at my watch, and it was 12:30, and just as I looked at my watch I heard an explosion.  ... And then immediately following there were two more quick explosions, and my stomach just went into a knot.

The attached animated GIF is from the Hughes Film at the approximate time that many believe the first shot was fired. I have slowed the animation down for demonstration purposes. It appears to me that Thomas Atkins (camera car #1, yellow convertible, right rear) raises his left arm to look at his watch just about the time that the helmet of the motorcycle cop (McLain) passes in between the camera and Atkins. If I am correct, this could be visual evidence that the first shot occurred at that time.

Please take a look at this and any other versions of the film or other films and photos and let me know your opinion about this possible evidence. Thank you very much.

(https://i.vgy.me/ixmuib.gif)

The DPD Officer MarrionBakerImage positioning, as confirmed by testimony and reenactment, offers indicative evidence of the 12:30pm CST time. And, so does the as seen white or yellow '64(?) FourDoor MercurySedan, then indicated occupied by SSAs assigned to LBJ, turning onto Elm St from Houston St, added to the Altgens6 Photo showing the same MercurySedan, with the driver's side rear door partially open also visible on film, that has not quite completed the turn.

Curiously, the PersonImage occupants of the 2nd steel blue '64 ChevroletConvertible seem to be reacting/standing up as their car has just turned the corner from Main St to Houston St, that was at least partially occupied by DallasCountySheriffDeputies standing out front of the CountySheriff'sDepartment bldg for the Motorcade.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Charles Collins on May 14, 2019, 07:30:42 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Charles,
This stabilized version shows a little more detail, but I still wouldn't want to say he is checking his watch (he could be, but I can't tell). There is a slight 'interference' just as the motorcycle rider (McLain) leaves the frame to the left. There is a film splice just at this time when Atkins appears to jerk his head.

(https://i.imgur.com/a1EMgTe.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/KA8FTzU.gif)

Thanks, that does look a lot more clear. I do see the head jerk to the left by Atkins. And it appears to me that his two companions in the rear of that vehicle also jerk their heads to the left at the same time. If so, that would be even better evidence that the first shot had just been fired. And that they were all reacting to the same sound.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 14, 2019, 09:13:44 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Thanks, that does look a lot more clear. I do see the head jerk to the left by Atkins. And it appears to me that his two companions in the rear of that vehicle also jerk their heads to the left at the same time. If so, that would be even better evidence that the first shot had just been fired. And that they were all reacting to the same sound.

Good research, guys.

At least two of the three photographers sitting in the back of the white car look to the left at the same time, and maybe all three of them do.

-- MWT  :)


Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Louis Earl on May 16, 2019, 02:32:03 AM
This is the most important thread I've ever followed on this site.

Honestly, I can't pick up the watch event.  you are talking about the large fellow in a dark suit?  Right hand or left?
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Royell Storing on May 16, 2019, 05:19:39 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This is the most important thread I've ever followed on this site.

Honestly, I can't pick up the watch event.  you are talking about the large fellow in a dark suit?  Right hand or left?

    I also do Not Clearly see what they are talking about. This is an issue which frequently comes up. People eyeballing Blurry Image(s) and claiming they see this or that. 2 people eventually come to a general agreement on what they Think they see and all the sudden they Claim to have Proven something or other. Their efforts merit an E for Effort. That's all. If there is a reaction as claimed, it could be the result of someone yelling from the crowd, a sudden motorcycle backfire, etc, vs a shot having been fired.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Charles Collins on May 16, 2019, 11:56:46 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This is the most important thread I've ever followed on this site.

Honestly, I can't pick up the watch event.  you are talking about the large fellow in a dark suit?  Right hand or left?

Atkins is on the right rear. In the original post?s images, it appears to me that his left elbow raises up like he was looking at his watch. However, this doesn?t appear in the clearer videos posted by others. The head jerks to the left do appear to at least three of us. That is the type of reaction one might expect.

This is why I requested for others to take a look at this. I agree that this could be important evidence. And I wouldn?t expect everyone to agree on it. Thanks for your input.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Charles Collins on May 16, 2019, 11:59:33 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
    I also do Not Clearly see what they are talking about. This is an issue which frequently comes up. People eyeballing Blurry Image(s) and claiming they see this or that. 2 people eventually come to a general agreement on what they Think they see and all the sudden they Claim to have Proven something or other. Their efforts merit an E for Effort. That's all. If there is a reaction as claimed, it could be the result of someone yelling from the crowd, a sudden motorcycle backfire, etc, vs a shot having been fired.

Thanks for your input.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Larry Trotter on May 16, 2019, 07:50:14 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This is the most important thread I've ever followed on this site.

Honestly, I can't pick up the watch event.  you are talking about the large fellow in a dark suit?  Right hand or left?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Atkins is on the right rear. In the original post?s images, it appears to me that his left elbow raises up like he was looking at his watch. However, this doesn?t appear in the clearer videos posted by others. The head jerks to the left do appear to at least three of us. That is the type of reaction one might expect.

This is why I requested for others to take a look at this. I agree that this could be important evidence. And I wouldn?t expect everyone to agree on it. Thanks for your input.

IMO, there is no viable reason to dispute ThomasAdkins' statement based on PersonImages' actions. Also, the as seen positioning/movement of the FourDoor MercurySedan, corroborated by the Altgens6Photo, and added to the positioning/movement of DallasPoliceMotorcyclePatrolOfficer MarrionBakerImage, offers valid evidence of the 12:30pm CST time as seen, as well as the simultaneous shooting of JohnConnallyJr and assassination of JohnKennedySr timing.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Charles Collins on May 16, 2019, 08:43:36 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Added to the actions of the PersonImages in CameraCar3 (2nd SteelBlue ChevroletConvertible), just after passing the entrance to the DallasCountySheriff'sBuilding on Main St, with a number of SheriffDeputies outside observing the Motorcade, and then turning onto Houston St, is to me indicative of a response to something.

Bob Jackson (right rear of that car) had just tossed an envelope with a roll of film in it to a coworker on the corner. The wind caught it and the coworker had to chase it. They were watching and laughing when the first shot sounded.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 16, 2019, 08:59:14 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
    I also do Not Clearly see what they are talking about. This is an issue which frequently comes up. People eyeballing Blurry Image(s) and claiming they see this or that. 2 people eventually come to a general agreement on what they Think they see and all the sudden they Claim to have Proven something or other. Their efforts merit an E for Effort. That's all. If there is a reaction as claimed, it could be the result of someone yelling from the crowd, a sudden motorcycle backfire, etc, vs a shot having been fired.

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/pix.iemoji.com/images/emoji/apple/ios-12/256/thumbs-up.png)
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 16, 2019, 09:06:00 PM

In any photographic image that even mildly threatens to challenge his "The Evil, Evil, Evil CIA Did It" CT, all Iacolletti can see is blobs.

-- MWT  :)
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 16, 2019, 11:46:33 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
In any photographic image that even mildly threatens to challenge his "The Evil, Evil, Evil CIA Did It" CT, all Iacolletti can see is blobs.

Tommy likes to make up stories about what people believe and what photographic blobs are.  It's sad, really.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 17, 2019, 02:42:21 AM
Even if it only remotely threatens his precious, anti-CIA Conspiracy Theories, Iacoletti even has a hard time distinguishing:

1) Black-plastic-framed-glasses from disconnected tree branches/floating shadows/and-or an ounce or two of really badly applied mascara,

2) dark-skinned American Indians from lilly-white Caucasians,

3) and ... oh my god ... WOMEN FROM MEN!!

-- MWT  :)
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Larry Trotter on May 17, 2019, 05:54:18 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Added to the actions of the PersonImages in CameraCar3 (2nd SteelBlue ChevroletConvertible), just after passing the entrance to the DallasCountySheriff'sBuilding on Main St, with a number of SheriffDeputies outside observing the Motorcade, and then turning onto Houston St, is to me indicative of a response to something.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Bob Jackson (right rear of that car) had just tossed an envelope with a roll of film in it to a coworker on the corner. The wind caught it and the coworker had to chase it. They were watching and laughing when the first shot sounded.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Most likely what was happening, thanks.

In any event, if indeed the reference to BobJackson (right rear of that car) is indicative of CameraCar3 (2nd steel blue '64 Chevrolet Convertible), is there any information about the arm waving/tossing motion of the GentlemanImage in CameraCar2 (1st steel blue '64 ChevroletConvertible)?
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Royell Storing on May 17, 2019, 04:56:40 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
In any photographic image that even mildly threatens to challenge his "The Evil, Evil, Evil CIA Did It" CT, all Iacolletti can see is blobs.

-- MWT  :)

    Multiple people on this Forum saying they do Not see what 2 of you Claim to see on Blurry Images has Nothing to do with the CIA or a Conspiracy Theory of some sort. Stop chasing after things that go bump in the night.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Royell Storing on May 17, 2019, 05:06:04 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
In any event, if indeed the reference to BobJackson (right rear of that car) is indicative of CameraCar3 (2nd steel blue '64 Chevrolet Convertible), is there any information about the arm waving/tossing motion of the GentlemanImage in CameraCar2 (1st steel blue '64 ChevroletConvertible)?

    Please remember the Camera Men in all 3 cars are Jammed into these vehicles amidst jostling with their cumbersome cameras, winding them, loading them, and even sometimes lighting & going through the motions of smoking cigarette(s). Their arms and bodies in general are frequently in motion.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: James Hackerott on May 19, 2019, 03:51:59 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Charles,
This stabilized version shows a little more detail, but I still wouldn't want to say he is checking his watch (he could be, but I can't tell). There is a slight 'interference' just as the motorcycle rider (McLain) leaves the frame to the left. There is a film splice just at this time when Atkins appears to jerk his head.

(https://i.imgur.com/a1EMgTe.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/KA8FTzU.gif)
When composing the stabilized GIF in reply #4, I saw something I've not noticed before. At 18 frames in the full Hughes clip, Camera Car #3 is smoothly ending its turn to Houston street but then abruptly takes a jump forward of about 3 feet in just 1 frame. This is about 3 times faster than the film's rate. At a frame rate of 18.3 fps (Dale Myers} each frame clocks about 55 ms. A car speed of 10 mph would advance 14-15 ft per second (0.8 ft per frame), or 3 feet in 206 ms. At 5 mph the interval is still less than half a second.

Basically, the film is missing 3-4 frames during this forward jump, which would be typical of a simple frame splice. But here is the rub. There is no splice bracketing this event. A careful analysis of the scene frames, as well as for 20 or more scenes filmed by Hughes, shows a startup frame (first frame overexposure) for the first frame following the jump. Meaning Hughes released and then enabled the shutter in the blink of an eye. Intentional, or reflexive actions? The head turns noted by Charles Collins of  Atkins and his left side passenger in Camera Car#1 follow by about 1 second.
(https://i.imgur.com/LhT9nGL.gif)
James
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Charles Collins on May 19, 2019, 12:31:05 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
When composing the stabilized GIF in reply #4, I saw something I've not noticed before. At 18 frames in the full Hughes clip, Camera Car #3 is smoothly ending its turn to Houston street but then abruptly takes a jump forward of about 3 feet in just 1 frame. This is about 3 times faster than the film's rate. At a frame rate of 18.3 fps (Dale Myers} each frame clocks about 55 ms. A car speed of 10 mph would advance 14-15 ft per second (0.8 ft per frame), or 3 feet in 206 ms. At 5 mph the interval is still less than half a second.

Basically, the film is missing 3-4 frames during this forward jump, which would be typical of a simple frame splice. But here is the rub. There is no splice bracketing this event. A careful analysis of the scene frames, as well as for 20 or more scenes filmed by Hughes, shows a startup frame (first frame overexposure) for the first frame following the jump. Meaning Hughes released and then enabled the shutter in the blink of an eye. Intentional, or reflexive actions? The head turns noted by Charles Collins of  Atkins and his left side passenger in Camera Car#1 follow by about 1 second.
(https://i.imgur.com/LhT9nGL.gif)
James

Interesting, it appears to me that the car hesitates at this point. Is that only due to the slowed speed of your clip? Or, are there multiple frames of the car in that same position?
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: James Hackerott on May 19, 2019, 04:34:40 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Interesting, it appears to me that the car hesitates at this point. Is that only due to the slowed speed of your clip? Or, are there multiple frames of the car in that same position?
Sorry, I did not explain the entire animation was slowed 5x for the two frames (last of first segment and first of second segment) slowed 5x slower yet. This was done to help draw the eye to where the jump is most obvious but also to allow the viewer time to estimate just how much the motorcade moved during the pause. I used CC2's left rear tire to estimate a forward movement of about 1.5 tire diameters. Of course, it is not just CC2 affected by the pause. Look at the stabilized animation from reply #4. Watch how CC1 smoothly decreases in size as it moves further from the camera until there is a subtle but sudden change in apparent size as if frames were removed. Not removed but never filmed. The shift forward comes before the splice that follows.  Here is the last animation slowed consistently 5x.

(https://i.imgur.com/bDLBVdZ.gif)
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Charles Collins on May 19, 2019, 09:16:59 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Sorry, I did not explain the entire animation was slowed 5x for the two frames (last of first segment and first of second segment) slowed 5x slower yet. This was done to help draw the eye to where the jump is most obvious but also to allow the viewer time to estimate just how much the motorcade moved during the pause. I used CC2's left rear tire to estimate a forward movement of about 1.5 tire diameters. Of course, it is not just CC2 affected by the pause. Look at the stabilized animation from reply #4. Watch how CC1 smoothly decreases in size as it moves further from the camera until there is a subtle but sudden change in apparent size as if frames were removed. Not removed but never filmed. The shift forward comes before the splice that follows.  Here is the last animation slowed consistently 5x.

(https://i.imgur.com/bDLBVdZ.gif)

Yes, I see. Thanks!
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Charles Collins on May 26, 2019, 09:25:55 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
When composing the stabilized GIF in reply #4, I saw something I've not noticed before. At 18 frames in the full Hughes clip, Camera Car #3 is smoothly ending its turn to Houston street but then abruptly takes a jump forward of about 3 feet in just 1 frame. This is about 3 times faster than the film's rate. At a frame rate of 18.3 fps (Dale Myers} each frame clocks about 55 ms. A car speed of 10 mph would advance 14-15 ft per second (0.8 ft per frame), or 3 feet in 206 ms. At 5 mph the interval is still less than half a second.

Basically, the film is missing 3-4 frames during this forward jump, which would be typical of a simple frame splice. But here is the rub. There is no splice bracketing this event. A careful analysis of the scene frames, as well as for 20 or more scenes filmed by Hughes, shows a startup frame (first frame overexposure) for the first frame following the jump. Meaning Hughes released and then enabled the shutter in the blink of an eye. Intentional, or reflexive actions? The head turns noted by Charles Collins of  Atkins and his left side passenger in Camera Car#1 follow by about 1 second.
(https://i.imgur.com/LhT9nGL.gif)
James

James, the more I considered this, the more convinced I am that the fraction of a second stop/start of Hughes' camera is highly unusual and therefore it could be a startle reaction to the sound of the first shot. So I want to thank you again for your post. I checked Dale Meyers' synchronization report of the films and he reports that there are six frames missing due to this stop/start. There are other items of evidence to support this theory. The image below will illustrate some of what I am going to write:

(https://i.vgy.me/0UPYtg.jpg)

The Tina Towner film ends just barely before the Hughes Film split-second break. Tina has said that the first shot occured just after she stopped filming. At essentially the same time as the Hughes film split second break, the Dorman film shows one extremely blurred frame (which I believe indicates a sudden jerk (startle reaction) before stopping for 49 frames.

Here is a photo of the camera car #1 occupants by Jay Skaggs as they round the corner of Main and Houston:

(https://i.vgy.me/nhI5Dh.jpg)

Notice that Thomas Atkins (right rear) is standing up as the car rounds the turn. And if you look carefully, you can see what appears to be his wristwatch under his left arm jacket sleeve. Apparently, he has just sat back down by the time he appears in the Hughes film clip. So my focus has shifted to the very first part of the Hughes film clip (before the split-second break). His posture appears that he could be lowering his head to look at his watch (the right elbow extends outward, which would be consistent with this theory). But I couldn't say conclusively that he is looking at his watch. So again I request others to take a look and give their opinions.

Other evidence that supports this early first shot timing includes Howard Brennan's affidavit of 11/22/63 that states JFK's back was inline with the last window (west) of the south side of the TSBD when the first shot sounded. And the interesting work of Max Holland, which is described in this well written article by Kenneth R. Scearce:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/scearce.htm (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/scearce.htm)

The above article includes some well done clips of the Zapruder film.

This Willis Lamm article is interesting also:

http://www.kbrhorse.net/signals/eagle03a.html (http://www.kbrhorse.net/signals/eagle03a.html)

Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: James Hackerott on May 27, 2019, 03:05:31 AM
Charles,
Thank you for your comments too.
I also checked Myers's synchronization work a few days after I last posted to this thread and saw that he did acknowledge the Hughes 6 frame stop-start event. Trask did not mention it in his detailed summary of the Hughes film (Pictures of the Pain appendix pages 617-618).
 
I looked at the Skaggs05 frame but can't determine if I see a watch, or just part of the camera. I've little doubt Atkins wore a watch.

Here are some additional random and brief observations to those you mentioned above:

John Martin was filming during this period and seems to have held rock steady.

Mark Bell stopped filming about 1 second before the Hughes pause, with the single last frame blurred.

Tina Towner also held rock steady during this interval, but with with the 7 frames missing about 4 seconds earlier who knows what might have happened then.

Phil Willis slide #4 was also taken about this time. I think though the blurriness of the limo occupants was more due to poor focus than motion blur.

Thanks for both links, I don't recall reading either one before.

I found a study online that was printed in the Journal of Neurophysiology.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2637008/

This study included the determination of reaction times taken of an extended index finger pressed onto a switch. The reaction time 76.2 15.7 ms was determined from the time of the audio stimulus to when the finger raised from the switch.  FWIW.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Charles Collins on May 27, 2019, 01:53:34 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Charles,
Thank you for your comments too.
I also checked Myers's synchronization work a few days after I last posted to this thread and saw that he did acknowledge the Hughes 6 frame stop-start event. Trask did not mention it in his detailed summary of the Hughes film (Pictures of the Pain appendix pages 617-618).
 
I looked at the Skaggs05 frame but can't determine if I see a watch, or just part of the camera. I've little doubt Atkins wore a watch.

Here are some additional random and brief observations to those you mentioned above:

John Martin was filming during this period and seems to have held rock steady.

Mark Bell stopped filming about 1 second before the Hughes pause, with the single last frame blurred.

Tina Towner also held rock steady during this interval, but with with the 7 frames missing about 4 seconds earlier who knows what might have happened then.

Phil Willis slide #4 was also taken about this time. I think though the blurriness of the limo occupants was more due to poor focus than motion blur.

Thanks for both links, I don't recall reading either one before.

I found a study online that was printed in the Journal of Neurophysiology.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2637008/

This study included the determination of reaction times taken of an extended index finger pressed onto a switch. The reaction time 76.2 15.7 ms was determined from the time of the audio stimulus to when the finger raised from the switch.  FWIW.

Thanks James, one other item (that I meant to include in my previous post) is the action of D.V. Harkness , the traffic cop assigned to the intersection of Main and Houston. From the first time I saw this clip, many years ago, I wondered what had caused  Harkness to turn away from his primary duty of the control of the intersection and walk towards where the limousine was traveling while apparently looking very intently for something. And whether he had just heard the sound of the first shot. If so, his actions would fit what I might expect.
Title: Re: Thomas M. Atkins
Post by: Charles Collins on May 27, 2019, 04:25:26 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Charles,
Thank you for your comments too.
I also checked Myers's synchronization work a few days after I last posted to this thread and saw that he did acknowledge the Hughes 6 frame stop-start event. Trask did not mention it in his detailed summary of the Hughes film (Pictures of the Pain appendix pages 617-618).
 
I looked at the Skaggs05 frame but can't determine if I see a watch, or just part of the camera. I've little doubt Atkins wore a watch.

Here are some additional random and brief observations to those you mentioned above:

John Martin was filming during this period and seems to have held rock steady.

Mark Bell stopped filming about 1 second before the Hughes pause, with the single last frame blurred.

Tina Towner also held rock steady during this interval, but with with the 7 frames missing about 4 seconds earlier who knows what might have happened then.

Phil Willis slide #4 was also taken about this time. I think though the blurriness of the limo occupants was more due to poor focus than motion blur.

Thanks for both links, I don't recall reading either one before.

I found a study online that was printed in the Journal of Neurophysiology.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2637008/

This study included the determination of reaction times taken of an extended index finger pressed onto a switch. The reaction time 76.2 15.7 ms was determined from the time of the audio stimulus to when the finger raised from the switch.  FWIW.

Mark Bell stopped filming about 1 second before the Hughes pause, with the single last frame blurred.

Yes, and I believe that the blurred frame is likely due to his haste to jump down from the pedestal and move to his second position to continue filming. Bell has stated that all three of the shots occurred during that time frame that he was moving. And when he resumed filming the limo was going under the triple underpass.