JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: James Hackerott on April 30, 2019, 05:05:00 AM

Title: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: James Hackerott on April 30, 2019, 05:05:00 AM
I found Mrs Hester years ago but Sitzman only a few days ago. After the shots Skaggs crossed Houston street from NE corner of Main/Houston, took two photos of the knoll area from the north peristyle, trekked to the TUP to take a closeup of Haygood, and then made it to the upper knoll to take slide #09.

From an interview of Marilyn Sitzman by Josiah ?Tink? Thompson in 1966.
?Sitzman: Uh huh. And I got off the concrete slab we were standing on, and I ran down the hill, and I met some men from across the street, and I took it for granted that they were Secret Service or CIA or something like that; and they asked me what happened, and I said, "they killed him." And I walked back up the hill, and I talked to an FBI man up there that did identify himself to me, but I don't recall his name, and then I walked back behind the marble thing there, not behind it, but back inside.
Thompson: Inside the alcove.
Sitzman: And I looked out the back. Everybody was running back that way. Everybody ran up the hill and back and looked out that way.
Thompson: And where did they run? Did they run back into the railroad yard or into the parking lot?
Sitzman: Some ran ... I mean ... I finally got back up to the alcove. There was bunches of people just swarming back there, and I think almost everybody on that hill ran back up that way. ?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sitzman.htm
Soon she was back up to the pedestal where she stood during the assassination, interviewed by Bill Wiseman as filmed by Jimmy Darnell.

(https://i.imgur.com/orD51xK.png)
James
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 30, 2019, 05:45:22 AM
I found Mrs Hester years ago but Sitzman only a few days ago. After the shots Skaggs crossed Houston street from NE corner of Main/Houston, took two photos of the knoll area from the north peristyle, trekked to the TUP to take a closeup of Haygood, and then made it to the upper knoll to take slide #09.

From an interview of Marilyn Sitzman by Josiah ?Tink? Thompson in 1966.
?Sitzman: Uh huh. And I got off the concrete slab we were standing on, and I ran down the hill, and I met some men from across the street, and I took it for granted that they were Secret Service or CIA or something like that; and they asked me what happened, and I said, "they killed him." And I walked back up the hill, and I talked to an FBI man up there that did identify himself to me, but I don't recall his name, and then I walked back behind the marble thing there, not behind it, but back inside.
Thompson: Inside the alcove.
Sitzman: And I looked out the back. Everybody was running back that way. Everybody ran up the hill and back and looked out that way.
Thompson: And where did they run? Did they run back into the railroad yard or into the parking lot?
Sitzman: Some ran ... I mean ... I finally got back up to the alcove. There was bunches of people just swarming back there, and I think almost everybody on that hill ran back up that way. ?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sitzman.htm
Soon she was back up to the pedestal where she stood during the assassination, interviewed by Bill Wiseman as filmed by Jimmy Darnell.

James

Nice work, James.

Does this give us a better idea of the time frame in which James Darnell filmed Stella Mae Joseph, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons on the Pergola Patio, as he looks as though he's getting ready to do in the Tina Towner film?

-- MWT   ;)

Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Charles Collins on January 12, 2021, 10:38:44 PM
I found Mrs Hester years ago but Sitzman only a few days ago. After the shots Skaggs crossed Houston street from NE corner of Main/Houston, took two photos of the knoll area from the north peristyle, trekked to the TUP to take a closeup of Haygood, and then made it to the upper knoll to take slide #09.

From an interview of Marilyn Sitzman by Josiah ?Tink? Thompson in 1966.
?Sitzman: Uh huh. And I got off the concrete slab we were standing on, and I ran down the hill, and I met some men from across the street, and I took it for granted that they were Secret Service or CIA or something like that; and they asked me what happened, and I said, "they killed him." And I walked back up the hill, and I talked to an FBI man up there that did identify himself to me, but I don't recall his name, and then I walked back behind the marble thing there, not behind it, but back inside.
Thompson: Inside the alcove.
Sitzman: And I looked out the back. Everybody was running back that way. Everybody ran up the hill and back and looked out that way.
Thompson: And where did they run? Did they run back into the railroad yard or into the parking lot?
Sitzman: Some ran ... I mean ... I finally got back up to the alcove. There was bunches of people just swarming back there, and I think almost everybody on that hill ran back up that way. ?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sitzman.htm
Soon she was back up to the pedestal where she stood during the assassination, interviewed by Bill Wiseman as filmed by Jimmy Darnell.

(https://i.imgur.com/orD51xK.png)
James


James, is this the same as Mrs. Charles Hester? And do you think it could be the woman in the couple seen on the south side of Elm Street in (approximately) Zapruder frames Z373 through Z384? I have seen their affidavit and FBI statements but I don't see them located on the Don Roberdeau map. Please let us know. Thanks.
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: James Hackerott on January 13, 2021, 05:53:42 PM

James, is this the same as Mrs. Charles Hester? And do you think it could be the woman in the couple seen on the south side of Elm Street in (approximately) Zapruder frames Z373 through Z384? I have seen their affidavit and FBI statements but I don't see them located on the Don Roberdeau map. Please let us know. Thanks.

Charles, the woman I identified in the Skaggs #09 frame is Beatrice -Mrs. Charles Hester, with her sunglasses and bright green outfit. The woman of the couple at the west end of the infield grass was not wearing green, or sunglasses. I don't know if that couple has been identified. Someone (maybe R. Unger) located them in a Cancellare photo just as they were climbing the knoll. Mr. and Mrs. Franzen and son were standing maybe 15 feet or so the east of the couple. The Franzens gave various statements, IIRC. As for Roberdeau maps, I have a version (number unknown) showing “a couple seen in Cancellare running with crowd first to grassy knoll and pergola steps”

(https://i.imgur.com/xwq02IK.jpg)

I do need to edit my original post where I indicated Skaggs captured a photo of Officer Haygood on the TUP. More recently, I realized that photo (Skaggs #08) was not taken at the TUP, but somewhere behind the fence in the parking area. I think somewhere near the “Badgeman Tree”. The SFM online collection description for this photo states the officer is “probably Clyde Haygood and three unidentified men”. To me, these men appear elevated, possibly standing on a truck bed. Comments on this are welcome, as always.
   
https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/22058/image-of-police-officer-and-railyard-after-the-assassination?ctx=4d433612-a8df-4fbd-a21c-1a906c91f7e0&idx=5
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Charles Collins on January 13, 2021, 07:52:49 PM
Charles, the woman I identified in the Skaggs #09 frame is Beatrice -Mrs. Charles Hester, with her sunglasses and bright green outfit. The woman of the couple at the west end of the infield grass was not wearing green, or sunglasses. I don't know if that couple has been identified. Someone (maybe R. Unger) located them in a Cancellare photo just as they were climbing the knoll. Mr. and Mrs. Franzen and son were standing maybe 15 feet or so the east of the couple. The Franzens gave various statements, IIRC. As for Roberdeau maps, I have a version (number unknown) showing “a couple seen in Cancellare running with crowd first to grassy knoll and pergola steps”

(https://i.imgur.com/xwq02IK.jpg)

I do need to edit my original post where I indicated Skaggs captured a photo of Officer Haygood on the TUP. More recently, I realized that photo (Skaggs #08) was not taken at the TUP, but somewhere behind the fence in the parking area. I think somewhere near the “Badgeman Tree”. The SFM online collection description for this photo states the officer is “probably Clyde Haygood and three unidentified men”. To me, these men appear elevated, possibly standing on a truck bed. Comments on this are welcome, as always.
   
https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/22058/image-of-police-officer-and-railyard-after-the-assassination?ctx=4d433612-a8df-4fbd-a21c-1a906c91f7e0&idx=5



Thanks for the reply James. Here is what is written in a FBI report dated 11/25/63 (CE 1429):

CHARLES HESTER, 2610 Mayhold Street, furnished the following information:

At approximately 12:30 p.m., November 22, 1963, HESTER and his wife, BEATRICE, were standing along the street at the point immediately preceeding the underpass on Elm Street where President JOHN F. KENNEDY was shot. HESTER stated he saw the President slump in the seat of the car and that he heard two shots fired drom what appeared to be a building located on the corner of Elm Street and Houston Street. He Stated he and his wife were almost in a direct line of the fire and he immediately grabbed his wife and shoved her to the ground. He stated hethereafter immediately escorted his wife across to the north side of the street on an embankment in an attempt to gain shelter.

HESTER stated he did not see anyone with a gun at the time the shots were fired and that after the President's car had pulled away from the scene and officers started toward the aforementioned building, he and his wife proceeded to their car and left the area.



I thought that the underlined sections seemed to me to fit the positions of the unnamed couple. And so I began a search here on this forum for more information on the Hesters.

Where were the Hesters located in the inset photo positioned in the bottom left of your montage? What photo is that from?

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: James Hackerott on January 13, 2021, 09:53:55 PM


Thanks for the reply James. Here is what is written in a FBI report dated 11/25/63 (CE 1429):

CHARLES HESTER, 2610 Mayhold Street, furnished the following information:

At approximately 12:30 p.m., November 22, 1963, HESTER and his wife, BEATRICE, were standing along the street at the point immediately preceeding the underpass on Elm Street where President JOHN F. KENNEDY was shot. HESTER stated he saw the President slump in the seat of the car and that he heard two shots fired drom what appeared to be a building located on the corner of Elm Street and Houston Street. He Stated he and his wife were almost in a direct line of the fire and he immediately grabbed his wife and shoved her to the ground. He stated hethereafter immediately escorted his wife across to the north side of the street on an embankment in an attempt to gain shelter.

HESTER stated he did not see anyone with a gun at the time the shots were fired and that after the President's car had pulled away from the scene and officers started toward the aforementioned building, he and his wife proceeded to their car and left the area.



I thought that the underlined sections seemed to me to fit the positions of the unnamed couple. And so I began a search here on this forum for more information on the Hesters.

Where were the Hesters located in the inset photo positioned in the bottom left of your montage? What photo is that from?

Thanks again!
Charles, that lower left image is crop of the Wiegman frame.

 I will relate a knowledge of the identification of Beatrice Hester, but can't provide any proof. My wife's childhood best friend was visiting one day when my wife mentioned my interest in the Kennedy assassination. I'll call her “X”. X related her aunt was an assassination witness. I asked for her aunt's name and yes, Hester. She was the woman dressed in green. Beatrice was still living at the time but had no interest in discussing the topic with anyone, and I never pressed for more information. X did volunteer that Beatrice was married twice after marriage to Charles Hester. I have no doubt about her sincerity.
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Charles Collins on January 14, 2021, 12:28:31 AM
Charles, that lower left image is crop of the Wiegman frame.

 I will relate a knowledge of the identification of Beatrice Hester, but can't provide any proof. My wife's childhood best friend was visiting one day when my wife mentioned my interest in the Kennedy assassination. I'll call her “X”. X related her aunt was an assassination witness. I asked for her aunt's name and yes, Hester. She was the woman dressed in green. Beatrice was still living at the time but had no interest in discussing the topic with anyone, and I never pressed for more information. X did volunteer that Beatrice was married twice after marriage to Charles Hester. I have no doubt about her sincerity.


Interesting James. A website named Madison dot com has an Altgens photo in which they label the couple on the ground near Zapruder the Hesters. Here is a crop from that photo:


(https://i.vgy.me/zp0UB9.png)


I don’t know any more than what I said in the earlier post. Both of the Hesters were interviewed the same day by the same FBI agents. It is conceivable that they could have gotten a detail or two wrong. But the FBI reports have them on the other side of Elm Street during the shooting. Do we know how long after the shooting that that Altgens photo of “them” and Zapruder was taken? Would they have had time to run up there. Also, the FBI reports say that they got on the ground first, then went across the street looking for cover. Do we have anyone that might be able to look at photos of both couples and then decide which one is correct? Does your wife’s friend know what Charles Hester looked like?

It would be interesting to have some confirmation, one way or the other.


Edit: I just found a thread that seems to indicate that the FBI reports must be wrong.

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/21004-charles-hester/ (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/21004-charles-hester/)
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Robin Unger on January 14, 2021, 01:30:33 AM
The Hesters can be seen in Bronson near the pergola as the limo approaches the Stemmons sign

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/digitalcollections12.jpg)
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Robin Unger on January 14, 2021, 01:39:14 AM
The couple on the south side infield (as seen in Cancellere) can be seen running in this Bell GIF

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-L1fGsXT0CUw/W7ArTKTyjgI/AAAAAAAACbI/JHqrYBKevj8hHWfsniuhybjsWB0lWDTLQCLcBGAs/s1600/Bell.gif)
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Charles Collins on January 14, 2021, 02:58:37 AM
The Hesters can be seen in Bronson near the pergola as the limo approaches the Stemmons sign

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/digitalcollections12.jpg)


Thanks Robin, I read the entire thread on the ed forum that I linked to earlier. Not everyone there appears  to be convinced that that is the Hesters. There are some major conflicts between their 11/22/63 account and the FBI reports dated 11/25/63. If we choose to believe the 11/22/63 account to be correct, then it is possible that the Hesters were near the pergola. But if the 11/25/63 reports are correct, then the couple on the south side of Elm Street appear to fit that description.
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Charles Collins on January 14, 2021, 03:03:30 AM
The couple on the south side infield (as seen in Cancellere) can be seen running in this Bell GIF

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-L1fGsXT0CUw/W7ArTKTyjgI/AAAAAAAACbI/JHqrYBKevj8hHWfsniuhybjsWB0lWDTLQCLcBGAs/s1600/Bell.gif)


Thanks again Robin. That is interesting. I need to take another look at the Bell film.
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Robin Unger on January 14, 2021, 06:10:09 PM
Beatrice and Sitzman seen in Cook standing together.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Cook_frame_0021.jpg)
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Charles Collins on January 14, 2021, 06:16:11 PM
Beatrice and Sitzman seen in Cook standing together.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Cook_frame_0021.jpg)

It appears that Beatrice is carrying Stizman’s black purse for her.
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Charles Collins on January 14, 2021, 07:17:20 PM
Here is the text from the 11/22/63 account (I highlighted the address):


VOLUNTARY STATEMENT. Not Under Arrest Form No. 86
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
COUNTY OF DALLAS, TEXAS
Before me, the undersigned authority, on this the 22nd day of November A.D. 1963 personally appeared Charles Hester, Address 2616 Keyhole, Irving Age 28 , Phone No. None
Deposes and says:

My wife, Beatrice and I were sitting on the grass on the slope on Elm Street where the park is located. When President Kennedy's car got almost down to the underpass, I heard two shots ring out. Thye [sic] sounded like they came from immediately behind us and over our heads. We did [not?] see the shooting. I immediately turned and looked at the Texas Book Depository building and did not see anyone. The shots sounded like the [sic] definitely came from in or around the building. I grabbed my wife because I didn't know where the next shot was coming from and dragged her up next to the concrete imbankment [sic] and threw her down on the ground and got on the ground with her. Then there was utter confusion. The Police rushed toward the railroad tracks and I finally found an officer to go to the Texas Book Depository Building. The officer I contacted was Officer Wiseman of the Dallas Sheriff's Department.

/s/ Charles Hester

Subscribed and sworn to before me on this the 22nd day of Nov A. D. 1963

/s/ Aleen Davis
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas


And here is the text from the 11/25/63 FBI report (I highlighted the address):


FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

Date 11/25/63

CHARLES HESTER, 2610 Mayhold Street, furnished the following information:

At approximately 12:30 p.m., November 22, 1963, HESTER and his wife, BEATRICE, were standing along the street at the point immediately preceeding the underpass on Elm Street where President JOHN F. KENNEDY was shot. HESTER stated he saw the President slump in the seat of the car and that he heard two shots fired drom what appeared to be a building located on the corner of Elm Street and Houston Street. He Stated he and his wife were almost in a direct line of the fire and he immediately grabbed his wife and shoved her to the ground. He stated hethereafter immediately escorted his wife across to the north side of the street on an embankment in an attempt to gain shelter.



HESTER stated he did not see anyone with a gun at the time the shots were fired and that after the President's car had pulled away from the scene and officers started toward the aforementioned building, he and his wife proceeded to their car and left the area.

on 11/24/63 at Irving, Texas File # DL 89-43

By Special Agent DOYLE WILLIAMS and HENRY J. OLIVER Date Dictated 11/25/63



The street view on google maps of 2616 Keyhole Street shows a small brick home with the appearance of a typical home that might be there in 1963; So I believe this one is correct. The address on the FBI report doesn’t seem to exist. So I have to guess that this is a clerical error. And I am also guessing that perhaps there was a mixup in exactly who’s account the FBI’s report contains. It doesn’t resemble the 11/22/63 Sheriff’s report in several ways. This appears to be the most likely explanation to me. Someone at the FBI might have made a mistake.
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Ray Mitcham on January 14, 2021, 09:00:22 PM
Charles the Hesters could have been to the North side of the free way access road, and then moved over the Elm Street extension which runs in front of the TSBD.
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Charles Collins on January 14, 2021, 09:58:37 PM
Charles the Hesters could have been to the North side of the free way access road, and then moved over the Elm Street extension which runs in front of the TSBD.


Thanks for the thought Ray. Here is what the report says:

He Stated he and his wife were almost in a direct line of the fire and he immediately grabbed his wife and shoved her to the ground. He stated hethereafter immediately escorted his wife across to the north side of the street on an embankment in an attempt to gain shelter.


The embankment is on the south side and to the west of the Elm Street Extension. And the only thing immediately north of it is the TSBD.

The un-named couple south of Elm Street can be seen in the Cancellare photo beginning to climb the embankment. It appears to me that they have just crossed Elm Street and are frightened and in a hurry. The descriptions in the 11/25/63 FBI reports for the Hesters fits the locations and activities of the un-named couple very well (in my opinion); and those FBI reports do not fit the Hester”s account or what can be seen of them in the photos and films. So a mixup of some description by the FBI appears to me to be the most likely explanation. The differences in the addresses between the Sheriff’s affidavit and the FBI reports could be a dictaphone transcription error. And it is conceivable (to me) that an interruption of some description could have caused someone to get the accounts of the two different couples mixed up.

What I am going to do next is search for any photographic evidence of the un-named couple laying on the ground. This would tend to further support the theory of an FBI screw-up.
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Robin Unger on January 14, 2021, 11:13:05 PM

Thanks Robin, I read the entire thread on the ed forum that I linked to earlier. Not everyone there appears  to be convinced that that is the Hesters. There are some major conflicts between their 11/22/63 account and the FBI reports dated 11/25/63. If we choose to believe the 11/22/63 account to be correct, then it is possible that the Hesters were near the pergola. But if the 11/25/63 reports are correct, then the couple on the south side of Elm Street appear to fit that description.

Charles it makes sense that the couple seen in Bronson are the Hesters, prior to the motorcade arriving Zapruder filmed them in the same location.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/17674959.gif)

Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Robin Unger on January 14, 2021, 11:26:45 PM
Bronson shows the Hesters near the bench, and the Limo just approaching the Stemmons sign.
just moments later as the Limo passed the Stemmons sign and the shots rang out.
Charles grabbed Beatrice and they moved further up the grass towards the peristyle and then he and Beatrice ducked and hitt he grass trying to avoid being shot.

Bell shows Wiegman crouched down on the grass filming the Hesters lying on the grass, moments later Charles hester left his wife on the ground as he jumped to his feet went inside the peristyle and looked back into the carpark area.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/PDVD_700.jpg)


Wiegman crouched down filming the Hesters sitting on the grass.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/snapshot20110118223444.JPG)
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Charles Collins on January 15, 2021, 12:09:39 AM
Charles it makes sense that the couple seen in Bronson are the Hesters, prior to the motorcade arriving Zapruder filmed them in the same location.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/17674959.gif)


Yes, I agree that it’s the same couple. And it appears that they were friends with Sitzman and Zapruder. And someone in the other forum indicated that Beatrice worked with them. But I haven’t seen anything to support the working there claim ( other than the friendly behavior). In other words, how do we know that Hester was the name of the couple?

I can understand why Charles might not want to mention Zapruder in his affidavit immediately after the assassination on 11/22/63. But have any of them said anything about being together there since the assassination? For instance, it seems to me that James’ wife’s friend would have heard something about that from her aunt.
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: James Hackerott on January 15, 2021, 03:27:12 AM

Yes, I agree that it’s the same couple. And it appears that they were friends with Sitzman and Zapruder. And someone in the other forum indicated that Beatrice worked with them. But I haven’t seen anything to support the working there claim ( other than the friendly behavior). In other words, how do we know that Hester was the name of the couple?

I can understand why Charles might not want to mention Zapruder in his affidavit immediately after the assassination on 11/22/63. But have any of them said anything about being together there since the assassination? For instance, it seems to me that James’ wife’s friend would have heard something about that from her aunt.
In Alexandra Zapruders's book Twenty-Two-Seconds, A Personal History of the Zapruder Film page 34, while describing her grandfather's testing his camera: (boldface is mine)
“After a while, Marilyn Sitzman came walking up the hill. All the banks had been closed because of the president's visit, so she gave up and walked back to the plaza, where she encountered Abe taking some test shots of his payroll clerk Beatrice Hester and her husband, Charles.

I did make contact with Beatrice's niece after about 10-15 years. She had a few memories, but I don't think she knew or can remember any assassination related details.

Beatrice was a middle name, not used by her niece.

She recalls Charles Hester worked as a sport's writer for a Dallas newspaper. I don't know if that is common knowledge or not. Perhaps someone could sleuth out his avatar with a little searching. I don't know which paper, the DMN archives are available free to Dallas residents with a library card. Maybe the Sixth Floor Museum Reading Room could help, once they reopen.

I have not heard back from her concerning photo identifications. I did give her a link of this thread, if she is interested.
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Charles Collins on January 15, 2021, 03:39:34 AM
In Alexandra Zapruders's book Twenty-Two-Seconds, A Personal History of the Zapruder Film page 34, while describing her grandfather's testing his camera: (boldface is mine)
“After a while, Marilyn Sitzman came walking up the hill. All the banks had been closed because of the president's visit, so she gave up and walked back to the plaza, where she encountered Abe taking some test shots of his payroll clerk Beatrice Hester and her husband, Charles.

I did make contact with Beatrice's niece after about 10-15 years. She had a few memories, but I don't think she knew or can remember any assassination related details.

Beatrice was a middle name, not used by her niece.

She recalls Charles Hester worked as a sport's writer for a Dallas newspaper. I don't know if that is common knowledge or not. Perhaps someone could sleuth out his avatar with a little searching. I don't know which paper, the DMN archives are available free to Dallas residents with a library card. Maybe the Sixth Floor Museum Reading Room could help, once they reopen.

I have not heard back from her concerning photo identifications. I did give her a link of this thread, if she is interested.

Thanks James! That does clear up the name question that I was asking about. The FBI reports dated 11/25/63 just don’t agree with the photographic record; so it does appear that the reports are screwed up. Interesting...
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Dan O'meara on January 15, 2021, 11:08:56 PM
Just for the record the Hesters can be seen in Willis #7. Mr Hester still sat down:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnrV3BHT/Screenshot-10.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Robin Unger on January 15, 2021, 11:34:48 PM
Just for the record the Hesters can be seen in Willis #7. Mr Hester still sat down:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnrV3BHT/Screenshot-10.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Yes that is the Hesters just prior to the shots being fired.
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Robin Unger on January 15, 2021, 11:40:11 PM
In Alexandra Zapruders's book Twenty-Two-Seconds, A Personal History of the Zapruder Film page 34, while describing her grandfather's testing his camera: (boldface is mine)
“After a while, Marilyn Sitzman came walking up the hill. All the banks had been closed because of the president's visit, so she gave up and walked back to the plaza, where she encountered Abe taking some test shots of his payroll clerk Beatrice Hester and her husband, Charles.

I did make contact with Beatrice's niece after about 10-15 years. She had a few memories, but I don't think she knew or can remember any assassination related details.

Beatrice was a middle name, not used by her niece.

She recalls Charles Hester worked as a sport's writer for a Dallas newspaper. I don't know if that is common knowledge or not. Perhaps someone could sleuth out his avatar with a little searching. I don't know which paper, the DMN archives are available free to Dallas residents with a library card. Maybe the Sixth Floor Museum Reading Room could help, once they reopen.

I have not heard back from her concerning photo identifications. I did give her a link of this thread, if she is interested.

Thanks for the information James.
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: James Hackerott on January 16, 2021, 03:46:04 AM
It took me many years before I realized the Hesters (probably) moved the bench from the shelter entry closer to the street at the edge of the patio after Zapruder filmed them with Sitzman. Presumably, to have a better view up Elm.
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Charles Collins on January 16, 2021, 01:35:35 PM
It took me many years before I realized the Hesters (probably) moved the bench from the shelter entry closer to the street at the edge of the patio after Zapruder filmed them with Sitzman. Presumably, to have a better view up Elm.

Yes, it does appear that way. Just guessing, but I wouldn’t think that the normal position for that bench was blocking the entrance to the shelter (as it was in the Zapruder film). So they probably moved it to that location (from its normal spot) initially.
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Robin Unger on January 16, 2021, 02:53:50 PM
The Bench as seen in Bothun
annotation credit: Martin Hinrichs.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Bothunphotographers.jpg)
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Charles Collins on January 16, 2021, 03:12:03 PM
The Bench as seen in Bothun
annotation credit: Martin Hinrichs.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Bothunphotographers.jpg)

Any ideas on who that is standing behind the bench?
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Robin Unger on January 16, 2021, 03:24:31 PM
There were two kids with white shoulder strips on there jackets;
I am pretty sure they are under the Stemmons sign in Willis 5.

Here they are in Cabluck.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/6fed8642746e10dee644a50c2eda1f14.jpg)
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Charles Collins on January 16, 2021, 03:35:26 PM
There were two kids with white shoulder strips on there jackets;
I am pretty sure they are under the Stemmons sign in Willis 5.

Here they are in Cabluck.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/6fed8642746e10dee644a50c2eda1f14.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: James Hackerott on January 16, 2021, 05:18:58 PM
Yes, it does appear that way. Just guessing, but I wouldn’t think that the normal position for that bench was blocking the entrance to the shelter (as it was in the Zapruder film). So they probably moved it to that location (from its normal spot) initially.
No big deal. I think if they left the bench there and sitting on it that the wall attached to the east pedestal would block much of their view. Anyway, I just wanted an excuse to make this overlay with a similar view I shot in November 2019.

Also, you may notice that a section of that wall was removed a few? years ago to allow paved access for wheelchairs.   

(https://i.imgur.com/LDDcPbX.jpg)
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Charles Collins on January 16, 2021, 05:40:03 PM
No big deal. I think if they left the bench there and sitting on it that the wall attached to the east pedestal would block much of their view. Anyway, I just wanted an excuse to make this overlay with a similar view I shot in November 2019.

Also, you may notice that a section of that wall was removed a few? years ago to allow paved access for wheelchairs.   

(https://i.imgur.com/LDDcPbX.jpg)


Yeah, we didn’t have the ADA back in 1963.

Do you remember where you were standing when you took the 2019 photo? It appears that it might be a slightly different angle (based on the offset alignment of the openings in the back and side of the shelter.
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: James Hackerott on January 16, 2021, 05:50:24 PM

Yeah, we didn’t have the ADA back in 1963.

Do you remember where you were standing when you took the 2019 photo? It appears that it might be a slightly different angle (based on the offset alignment of the openings in the back and side of the shelter.
I was standing very near south northeast corner of the Z pedestal probably less than a foot or two, but on the patio not the pedestal. I didn't have a reference image for comparison, so that was only an opportunity shot.
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Robin Unger on January 16, 2021, 06:01:18 PM
This image appears similar to the line of site seen in the Zapruder frames, showing Sitzman and the hesters

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Image30_zps1cfd643a.jpg)
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: James Hackerott on January 16, 2021, 07:21:56 PM
This image appears similar to the line of site seen in the Zapruder frames, showing Sitzman and the hesters

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Image30_zps1cfd643a.jpg)
Thanks Robin. Do you have a Z frame of this scene that has at least an edge of the west entry?
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: James Hackerott on January 19, 2021, 03:10:02 AM
Beatrice and Sitzman seen in Cook standing together.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Cook_frame_0021.jpg)
This Cook/Cooper film frame was taken very close to 12:52, based on my computer simulation and on-site shadow analysis.

(https://i.imgur.com/cHCRBgS.jpg)
Title: Re: Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice Hester Down the Knoll in Skaggs09
Post by: Robin Unger on January 19, 2021, 04:16:39 PM
Nice match up on the LOS for those two images James. :)

Mrs Hester and Sitzman again in the same position as seen in Cook.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Cook_frame_0001.jpg)