JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Alan Ford on April 19, 2019, 01:47:24 PM

Title: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 19, 2019, 01:47:24 PM
Can anyone point me to the footage from which this frame of Mr Lovelady is taken?

(https://i.imgur.com/LAyz4ce.jpg)

The only version I can find cuts before this frame  :'(

Thank you!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 19, 2019, 02:49:09 PM
Update!

I've found this gif, but the quality isn't great...

(https://i.imgur.com/J6EndHp.gif)
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 19, 2019, 03:01:34 PM
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Update!

I've found this gif, but the quality isn't great...

(https://i.imgur.com/J6EndHp.gif)

The time appears to be a couple of minutes before 2 PM ....and Lee Oswald's shirt is hanging loosely off his arms as he is lead past Billy Lovelady....
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 19, 2019, 06:06:35 PM
Friends, Mr Lovelady has been a controversial figure in the case for generations of researchers.

People like Mr H. Weisberg have tried---------and failed!-----------to present a convincing case that Mr Lovelady is not the figure in the doorway in the Altgens photograph, and that that figure is Mr Oswald:

(https://i.imgur.com/OjFGRnD.jpg)

I firmly believe that this is indeed Mr Lovelady.

However!

There are a number of very troubling anomalies around Mr Lovelady that have yet to be resolved satisfactorily IMO. I'd like to do some thinking aloud on this, which will involve presenting a simple but very startling idea that just might have something going for it. There will be laughter, there will be tears, there will be disbelief. All part of the territory-----------but I think it's worth exploring anyhow! 

Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 19, 2019, 06:07:35 PM
Let's start with this clip, taken in the squadroom at City Hall some 90 minutes after the assassination:

(https://i.imgur.com/J6EndHp.gif)

Question #1!

Given that Mr Lovelady clearly notices Mr Oswald being brought past him, why on earth will he----------in his WC testimony------------tell Mr Ball that he did not see Mr Oswald again that day from the time the Depository workers broke for lunch?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 19, 2019, 06:16:20 PM
We have footage of Mr Lovelady wearing a long-sleeved red plaid shirt that day.

E.g.:

(https://i.imgur.com/7hxRJVt.jpg)

Question #2!

Why will Mr Lovelady inform the FBI in February '64, and Mr Jones Harris subsequently, that the shirt he was wearing out on the steps at the time of the motorcade was a short-sleeved, vertically striped red and white shirt?

(https://i.imgur.com/kNdMRWS.jpg)



And... why will he years later protest that he said no such thing, even posing for photographs on several occasions in the red plaid shirt?

(https://i.imgur.com/LWyE315.jpg)
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 19, 2019, 06:21:39 PM
Question #3!

Why does Mr Lovelady look so bald on top in the Wiegman film--------------

(https://i.imgur.com/RhtzX4t.jpg)

---------------and in this 1964 photo of him taken surreptitiously in 1964?

(https://i.imgur.com/RrCReJ1.jpg)

Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 19, 2019, 06:25:46 PM
Question #4!

Why did Mr Lovelady describe a pretty quick re-entry to the building for the WC---------------

We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.


---------------yet tell the HSCA that he didn't re-enter the building until about 20-25 minutes after the assassination?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 19, 2019, 06:29:19 PM
Question #5!

Why was Mr Lovelady so paranoid about having his photograph taken by members of the public after the assassination?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 19, 2019, 06:33:33 PM
Question #6!

Why does Mr Lovelady in his various '63/'64 statements give every impression of having stayed inside the building upon his return, and make no mention of going back out onto the front steps, when the Hughes and (as below) Martin films clearly show him standing there smoking a cigarette several minutes after the assassination?

(https://i.imgur.com/6ceRxwg.gif)

Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 19, 2019, 08:46:47 PM
Now!

Many people-------------even those with no time for the Oswald-Is-DoorwayMan-In-Altgens idea---------------have commented over the years on how different Mr Lovelady appears between here...

(https://i.imgur.com/6ceRxwg.gif)

...and here...

(https://i.imgur.com/uSevioa.jpg)

They've heard all the arguments about aspect ratio and light conditions, but they still feel something is off. They wonder---------despite themselves!---------Can this really be the same man?

Question #7!

What if they're right to wonder?

What if the reason this man-------

(https://i.imgur.com/jfselYl.jpg)

-------looks huskier and, well, different to the Mr Lovelady seen in other images is that he isn't actually Mr Lovelady?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 19, 2019, 09:05:49 PM
But who could this man in Hughes & Martin be, if not Mr Lovelady? And what possible reason would Mr Lovelady have had to lie (in later years) about having worn a red plaid shirt that day?

How about we go back to the clip of 'Mr Lovelady' sitting in the squadroom at City Hall watching Mr Oswald being brought by?

(https://i.imgur.com/J6EndHp.gif)

How about we simply accept Mr Lovelady's statement to Mr Ball in his WC testimony that he did not see Mr Oswald again that day?

(Note: Mr Charles Givens had his affidavit taken by Det. Leavelle along with Mr Lovelady. Here's what he testified:

"Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see Lee Oswald at any time after the time you saw him carrying the clipboard on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. The next time I saw him was on television.")

Okay, but who did see Mr Oswald being brought in through the squadroom?

Answer:

1. Mr Bill Shelley-------who had to vacate the interview supply room in back in order to let Mr Oswald be brought in there:

(https://i.imgur.com/auZBG83.jpg)

2. + 3. Let us turn to the description of the scene given by Mr Walter Eugene Potts during his WC testimony:

So, they brought him on back in while we were sitting back in the squadroom and I was sitting back there with Dougherty and Arce, and they came by and put him in the side interrogation room back there. As you walk in the door, there is an interrogation room right straight ahead and then you turn right to go back in the squadroom and you go on back in the squadroom, and this Mr. Dougherty looked at me and he said, "I know that man."

Question #8!

What if the husky man in the red plaid shirt on 11/22 is none other than Mr Jack Edwin Dougherty?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 19, 2019, 09:21:05 PM
But we still haven't answered the question asked in the previous post:

Why would Mr Lovelady lie (in later years) about having worn the red plaid shirt?

I believe that question may be closely tied up with another (Question #9!):

Why is Mr Dougherty the only one of Mr Oswald's co-workers of whom we have never seen a confirmed contemporary image?

To approach an answer to these questions, I want to quote from something Mr Anthony Clayden wrote on this forum on 3 April:

Only one person fits the following, "the closest person without an alibi, with unimpeded access to the shooter's nest, whose testimony is unbelievable, had military training, and was "emotionally" unstable"
He reported being at the back of the 5th/6th floor, but is not seen by Bonnie Ray Williams (BRW) as he traverses from right next to the shooters nest to the front of the 5th, about 2 to 3 minutes before the shooting. [...]
Reports using the lift done to the first floor, but the conversation he claims he had with Eddie Piper, Piper can't remember.
His out of character action of returning to work early, his laughable reason for not watching the parade (clearly didn't remember windows existed).
If Oswald had have reported hearing a noise, travelled all the way to the first floor, been told that the President was shot, then went back to work by himself, LNers would take it as clear evidence that he was the shooter.


Next I want to quote from the 11/22 affidavit given by Officer Marrion L. Baker:

As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to that man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor.  The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5' 9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

Finally I want to point out the one salient fact about the shooter's appearance noted and recalled by Mr Amos Euins:

"He had a bald spot on his head." (WC testimony)

(https://i.imgur.com/KFYv1uA.jpg)
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 19, 2019, 09:52:24 PM
MEMORANDUM

TO: J Lee Rankin

FROM: Melvin A. Eisenberg

SUBJECT: Identity of Assassin

I think a thorough investigation should he run on a TSBD employee named Jack Dougherty.

On the morning of November 22, Dougherty was part of a crew laying a new plywood floor on the sixth floor of the TSBD. This crew consisted of Danny Arce, Dougherty, Charles Givens, James ("Junior") Jarman, Billy Lovelady, and Bonnie Rae Williams, all regular employees in the TSBD shipping and. order-filling department.

They were apparently working under the direction of William Shelley the senior employee in that department.

In a written statement to the Dallas police on November 22,

Dougherty gave the following story: On the morning of November 22, he had worked [with the floor laying crew] on the sixth floor until 12:00, when he went down to the first floor to eat his lunch. After lunch he returned to work [on the sixth floor] and then went down to the fifth floor "to get some stock," when he heard a shot, which sounded as if it had come from inside the building. He then went down to the first floor and asked Eddie Piper, the TSBD Janitor, whether Piper had heard anything. Piper said yes, he had heard 3 shots. Dougherty then returned to the sixth floor. (81B.20)[

SA Blake of the Secret Service, who interviewed Dougherty between December 2 and December 5, reported that "when Dougherty was interviewed he seemed to be very confused about time and places. Mr. Truly [Roy S. Truly, Superintendent of the TSBD] finished the information that although Dougherty is a very good employee and a hard worker, he is mentally retarded and has difficulty in remembering facts, such as dates, times, places, and. has-been especially confused since the assassination." (SS 1*91 at p. 7)

I am suspicious of Dougherty for several reasons.

(1) He has no alibi. Of the six employees on the floor laying crew, Givens claims to have been with a friend at a parking lot several blocks away when the assassination took place; Williams and Jarman were together on the fifth floor with another employee named Norman; Lovelady was standing outside the TSBD (and was photographed); and Arce claims to have been standing outside the TSBD.

Dougherty was inside the TSBD and all alone.

(2) His story is very thin.

(a) It does not make sense that Dougherty, one of a six-man floor laying crew, should begin working before the other five members returned from lunch.

( b ) It is questionable that Dougherty would have had to go to the fifth floor to get "stock" in connection with the floor-laying project.

1/ Dougherty?s father told the FBI that Dougherty had received a medical discharge from the U.S. Army and had considerable difficulty coordinating his mental facilities and his speech. (5.367)

(c) Jarman, Norman, and Williams, who were at the southeast window of the fifth floor at the time of the assassination, and ran from there to the southwest window, make absolutely no mention of having seen Dougherty on the fifth floor.

(d) It does not seem credible that Dougherty would have gone down to the first floor, found out that the three shots had been fired, and then casually returned to the sixth floor.

(e) No report indicates that Dougherty or anyone else was on the sixth floor when that floor was searched

(f) Since Dougherty heard the shots on the fifth floor, and since the shots were fired at approximately 12:32, Dougherty must have returned to the sixth floor, allegedly to go back to work, before 12:30. This seems odd, since the TSBD lunch period extends until 12:45.

(3) If Dougherty is ?mentally retarded,? it may explain some of the inconsistencies in his story. On the other hand, the ?mental retardation? may be an emotional problem, which would itself be grounds for suspicion. In this connection, I find disturbing Truly?s comment that Dougherty ?has been especially confused since the assassination.?

cc: Ball

Belin

Craig

Adams

Specter

Redlich
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: John Mytton on April 19, 2019, 10:51:52 PM
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Now!

Many people-------------even those with no time for the Oswald-Is-DoorwayMan-In-Altgens idea---------------have commented over the years on how different Mr Lovelady appears between here...

(https://i.imgur.com/6ceRxwg.gif)

...and here...

(https://i.imgur.com/uSevioa.jpg)

They've heard all the arguments about aspect ratio and light conditions, but they still feel something is off. They wonder---------despite themselves!---------Can this really be the same man?

Question #7!

What if they're right to wonder?

What if the reason this man-------

(https://i.imgur.com/jfselYl.jpg)

-------looks huskier and, well, different to the Mr Lovelady seen in other images is that he isn't actually Mr Lovelady?

Quote
They've heard all the arguments about aspect ratio and light conditions, but they still feel something is off.

Well guess what Einstein, the ratio is way off. Standardised NTSC output image is 4:3. Whoever captured the video deliberately squashed the footage to make Lovelady appear thicker. Naughty naughty!

(https://i.postimg.cc/fW5M2GWN/4-3-lovelady.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/9fzx2qZb/4-3-loveladyb.gif)

Here's a comparison that is centered directly on Lovelady.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bJf2gs0L/4-3-loveladyc.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Tim Nickerson on April 20, 2019, 12:52:44 AM
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Let's start with this clip, taken in the squadroom at City Hall some 90 minutes after the assassination:

(https://i.imgur.com/J6EndHp.gif)

Question #1!

Given that Mr Lovelady clearly notices Mr Oswald being brought past him, why on earth will he----------in his WC testimony------------tell Mr Ball that he did not see Mr Oswald again that day from the time the Depository workers broke for lunch?

That Gif only shows Lovelady looking at Oswald after he has passed by and is facing the other direction. It's quite possible that Lovelady never recognized the individual as being Oswald.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Tim Nickerson on April 20, 2019, 01:03:51 AM
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We have footage of Mr Lovelady wearing a long-sleeved red plaid shirt that day.

E.g.:

(https://i.imgur.com/7hxRJVt.jpg)

Question #2!

Why will Mr Lovelady inform the FBI in February '64, and Mr Jones Harris subsequently, that the shirt he was wearing out on the steps at the time of the motorcade was a short-sleeved, vertically striped red and white shirt?

(https://i.imgur.com/kNdMRWS.jpg)



And... why will he years later protest that he said no such thing, even posing for photographs on several occasions in the red plaid shirt?

(https://i.imgur.com/LWyE315.jpg)

What normal adult male remembers what shirt they were wearing on a particular day three months prior?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Colin Crow on April 20, 2019, 01:47:16 AM
Alan, I believe Tom Scully has previously posted documentation to the effect that JED was over 6? tall.....maybe 6'2?.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Tom Scully on April 20, 2019, 04:53:46 AM
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Alan, I believe Tom Scully has previously posted documentation to the effect that JED was over 6? tall.....maybe 6'2?.

(http://jfkforum.com/images/DoughertyJackDraftWWII.jpg)

Enlistment Record
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DoughertyEnlistment30OCT42.jpg)

Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Colin Crow on April 20, 2019, 05:18:16 AM
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(http://jfkforum.com/images/DoughertyJackDraftWWII.jpg)

Enlistment Record
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DoughertyEnlistment30OCT42.jpg)

Thanks Tom....out by an inch.  :)
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Patrick Jackson on April 20, 2019, 04:16:58 PM
I believe that the person in red plaid shirt was Roscoe White.
He had a day off on 11/22/63 and I think he was the person seen in front of TSBD.
Soon after he went to DPD to check if he can help somehow and that we see him in Homicide office at 2PM.
Once the Oswald identity was set, two DPD teams were formed, one went to search Oswald rooming house and second team went to Ruth Paine home. Roscoe was picked to help one of this two teams and this is explanation how he got that back yard photo. Most probably he was the first person to find the photos and took one for himself.
There are not many Roscoe White photos available but sure the resemblance between Plaid Shirt person and Roscoe is much higher than with Lovelady.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 20, 2019, 07:12:10 PM
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(https://i.postimg.cc/bJf2gs0L/4-3-loveladyc.gif)


Nope, still doesn't look like him...
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 20, 2019, 07:12:35 PM
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That Gif only shows Lovelady looking at Oswald after he has passed by and is facing the other direction. It's quite possible that Lovelady never recognized the individual as being Oswald.

Unlikely!
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 20, 2019, 07:14:31 PM
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What normal adult male remembers what shirt they were wearing on a particular day three months prior?

Mr Billy Nolan Lovelady (according to Mr Billy Nolan Lovelady)!  Thumb1:

(https://i.imgur.com/2X7aFv9.jpg)

Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 20, 2019, 07:17:39 PM
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(http://jfkforum.com/images/DoughertyJackDraftWWII.jpg)

Enlistment Record
(http://jfkforum.com/images/DoughertyEnlistment30OCT42.jpg)

Thank you, Mr Scully (and Mr Crow)!  Thumb1:

I was obviously unaware of this. Is a scanned original document available anywhere?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 20, 2019, 07:23:54 PM
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I believe that the person in red plaid shirt was Roscoe White.
He had a day off on 11/22/63 and I think he was the person seen in front of TSBD.
Soon after he went to DPD to check if he can help somehow and that we see him in Homicide office at 2PM.
Once the Oswald identity was set, two DPD teams were formed, one went to search Oswald rooming house and second team went to Ruth Paine home. Roscoe was picked to help one of this two teams and this is explanation how he got that back yard photo. Most probably he was the first person to find the photos and took one for himself.
There are not many Roscoe White photos available but sure the resemblance between Plaid Shirt person and Roscoe is much higher than with Lovelady.

Hmm, not so sure about that, Mr Jackson. Do we have a photo of Mr White from ca. 1963?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Tim Nickerson on April 20, 2019, 07:48:51 PM
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Unlikely!

I disagree. Certainly not as unlikely as Oswald going unnoticed while standing on the entrance steps with a bunch of people who worked with him.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Tim Nickerson on April 20, 2019, 07:52:01 PM
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Mr Billy Nolan Lovelady (according to Mr Billy Nolan Lovelady)!  Thumb1:

(https://i.imgur.com/2X7aFv9.jpg)

Right. As I said, what normal adult male remembers what clothes they were wearing on a particular day three months prior? Lovelady was wrong. He was not wearing his red and white vertical striped shirt.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 20, 2019, 08:04:37 PM
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I disagree. Certainly not as unlikely as Oswald going unnoticed while standing on the entrance steps with a bunch of people who worked with him.

He sees Mr Oswald walk past him...

(https://i.imgur.com/A5XuIhd.gif)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 20, 2019, 08:05:34 PM
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Right. As I said, what normal adult male remembers what clothes they were wearing on a particular day three months prior? Lovelady was wrong. He was not wearing his red and white vertical striped shirt.

So you accept that the FBI accurately reported what he told them about the shirt in February 1964?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Tim Nickerson on April 20, 2019, 09:03:40 PM
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He sees Mr Oswald walk past him...

(https://i.imgur.com/A5XuIhd.gif)

 Thumb1:

We can't tell that from viewing that Gif.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Tim Nickerson on April 20, 2019, 09:04:16 PM
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So you accept that the FBI accurately reported what he told them about the shirt in February 1964?

Yes I do.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Tom Scully on April 20, 2019, 09:40:18 PM
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Thank you, Mr Scully (and Mr Crow)!  Thumb1:

I was obviously unaware of this. Is a scanned original document available anywhere?

The first doc. is available at fold3.com . It is a subscription site, height and weight are on back of the form,
my screen shot trigger finger is  barely quick enough to capture the image of the front of the 1942 draft form...
The enlistment form displays only as text on ancestry.com and was captured in a screen shot.

https://www.fold3.com/image/624687289/?xid=991
(http://jfkforum.com/images/Dougherty1942DraftPage1.jpg)
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: John Mytton on April 20, 2019, 11:58:36 PM
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We can't tell that from viewing that Gif.

Agreed, if Oswald was walking past wouldn't Lovelady be looking up at Oswald's face and tracking Oswald as he walks by?

(https://i.postimg.cc/h4X5yG9B/loveladyossy.gif)

And even as Oswald is leaving Lovelady is still not looking up at Oswald and just seems to be generally looking at the people walking by.

(http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/lovelady/Lovelady_HQ_Martin.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Colin Crow on April 21, 2019, 01:05:37 AM
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Agreed, if Oswald was walking past wouldn't Lovelady be looking up at Oswald's face and tracking Oswald as he walks by?

(https://i.postimg.cc/h4X5yG9B/loveladyossy.gif)

And even as Oswald is leaving Lovelady is still not looking up at Oswald and just seems to be generally looking at the people walking by.

(http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/lovelady/Lovelady_HQ_Martin.jpg)

JohnM

Not sure what we are debating, but in the lower picture you posted Lovelady's head has turned in Oswald's general direction and was not fixed in a fashion of simply gazing "generally at people walking by". His head appears tilted slightly upward and in a way that would enable facial recognition.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: John Mytton on April 21, 2019, 01:48:36 AM
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Not sure what we are debating, but in the lower picture you posted Lovelady's head has turned in Oswald's general direction and was not fixed in a fashion of simply gazing "generally at people walking by". His head appears tilted slightly upward and in a way that would enable facial recognition.

To me in the following video capture, as Oswald leaves the area, Lovelady has either not recognised or has seen and has no further interest in Oswald. Lovelady appears to be looking below the shoulder level of the man highlighted with pink and maybe Lovelady was just checking out who was who by their clothes and badges? If Lovelady was still looking towards Oswald's face/head, Lovelady's head would be at the same angle as Oswald's and would be more tilted up, imo.

(https://i.postimg.cc/90sY4TbY/Lovelady-HQ-Martingif.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 21, 2019, 07:59:53 AM
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We can't tell that from viewing that Gif.

Sure we can.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 21, 2019, 08:00:16 AM
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Yes I do.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 21, 2019, 08:04:09 AM
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The first doc. is available at fold3.com . It is a subscription site, height and weight are on back of the form,
my screen shot trigger finger is  barely quick enough to capture the image of the front of the 1942 draft form...
The enlistment form displays only as text on ancestry.com and was captured in a screen shot.

https://www.fold3.com/image/624687289/?xid=991
(http://jfkforum.com/images/Dougherty1942DraftPage1.jpg)

Thank you very much for this, Mr Scully!  Thumb1:

It would be great to see the back of the form, where the key physical details are...
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 21, 2019, 08:21:07 AM
Friends, thanks to Mr Scully, it looks like the 'Jack Dougherty' rabbit-hole is blocked up!

So this guy in the background is definitely not Mr Dougherty, right?

(https://i.imgur.com/HK5QzIQ.gif)

Is he definitely Mr Lovelady?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 21, 2019, 10:38:21 AM
Friends, I got it wrong on Mr Dougherty. Hands up, and thanks again to Messrs Scully and Crow for setting me right!  Thumb1:

But!

I am still not convinced that Mr Lovelady is the man in the plaid shirt on 22 November.

It seems to me we might possibly be dealing with 2 different men here:

1. The Real Mr Billy Nolan Lovelady (a.k.a. Almost-Completely-Bald-On-Top Lovelady) in short-sleeved shirt with vertical red and white stripes
------Wiegman
------Altgens [I'll come to this!]
------later seen in the photo sneaked of him in 1964:
(https://i.imgur.com/XRoNWvo.jpg)


2. Not-So-Bald-On-Top 'Lovelady' (though with a large bald spot on crown) in Red Plaid Shirt
-------DPD squadroom footage
-------Hughes
-------Martin
(https://i.imgur.com/GzWnVq5.gif)

I would like to propose-----------as a tentative theory------------the following:

1. Mr Lovelady is the 'Doorway Man' in Altgens
1a. He was wearing the short-sleeved red/white striped shirt

2. Another man looking somewhat like Mr Lovelady (and hence somewhat like someone else) was... elsewhere at the time of the motorcade
2a. He had a prominent bald spot and was, at the time of the motorcade, wearing only a white tshirt

3. After the assassination...
3a. Mr Lovelady went back into the building and stayed there until being brought down to City Hall
3b. 'Mr Lovelady' (who had been caught by Officer Baker "walking away from the stairs" on "the third or fourth floor" but vouched for as an employee by Mr Truly) stood out on the steps, smoking... he was now wearing a red plaid shirt

4. 'Mr Lovelady' (plaid shirt) was a worker in the Depository: we see him up on the sixth floor in the white t-shirt he'd been wearing... elsewhere at the time of the motorcade
(https://i.imgur.com/lL201WG.gif)

5. Both Mr Lovelady and 'Mr Lovelady' were brought down to City Hall to give statements, but...
5a. 'Mr Lovelady' was there in the squadroom when Mr Oswald was brought in
5b. Mr Lovelady was not.

Now!

You-------------being smart people------------will roll your eyes and say:

'But if this 'other Lovelady' is not Billy Lovelady, then who the heck is he? With Jack Dougherty ruled out, you're all out of candidates!'

Bien au contraire!

There are in fact two other candidates for 'Mr Lovelady':

-------Mr Franklin Kaiser
-------Mr Fred Kaiser, Jr. (white, male, 24 years old)

Messrs. Kaiser and Kaiser were brothers

-----------------One of them claimed to have been getting his teeth done at Baylor Dental Clinic the day of the assassination, yet the Depository payroll shows him having worked a full day that day
-----------------The other claimed to have quit his job at the Depository the day before the assassination.

If I am right, then Mr Lovelady's vacillating story about the shirt, and his terror of being photographed in public, came down to one thing:

He was covering for one of the Kaiser brothers.

Is this none other than the sixth-floor shooter seen by Mr Brennan, Mr Fischer, Mr Edwards and Mr Euins?:

(https://i.imgur.com/GzWnVq5.gif)
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 21, 2019, 02:17:35 PM
I am proposing that the first big visual secret which Mr Billy Nolan Lovelady was trying desperately to keep after the assassination was that, as of 11/22/63, he was bald as a coot on the top of his head:

This is what the Wiegman film clearly shows us:

(https://i.imgur.com/t3dH3es.jpg)

It's what the earliest wirephoto versions of the Altgens photo tell us:

(https://i.imgur.com/pZSwOho.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3PPKdBz.jpg)

And, if we look closely, it's what the later public version also shows us:

(https://i.imgur.com/Dol5j6k.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Patrick Jackson on April 21, 2019, 04:16:51 PM
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Hmm, not so sure about that, Mr Jackson. Do we have a photo of Mr White from ca. 1963?

Not many photos available. None of them is face left side.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 21, 2019, 06:06:41 PM
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Friends, I got it wrong on Mr Dougherty. Hands up, and thanks again to Messrs Scully and Crow for setting me right!  Thumb1:

But!

I am still not convinced that Mr Lovelady is the man in the plaid shirt on 22 November.

It seems to me we might possibly be dealing with 2 different men here:

1. The Real Mr Billy Nolan Lovelady (a.k.a. Almost-Completely-Bald-On-Top Lovelady) in short-sleeved shirt with vertical red and white stripes
------Wiegman
------Altgens [I'll come to this!]
------later seen in the photo sneaked of him in 1964:
(https://i.imgur.com/XRoNWvo.jpg)


2. Not-So-Bald-On-Top 'Lovelady' (though with a large bald spot on crown) in Red Plaid Shirt
-------DPD squadroom footage
-------Hughes
-------Martin
(https://i.imgur.com/GzWnVq5.gif)

I would like to propose-----------as a tentative theory------------the following:

1. Mr Lovelady is the 'Doorway Man' in Altgens
1a. He was wearing the short-sleeved red/white striped shirt

2. Another man looking somewhat like Mr Lovelady (and hence somewhat like someone else) was... elsewhere at the time of the motorcade
2a. He had a prominent bald spot and was, at the time of the motorcade, wearing only a white tshirt

3. After the assassination...
3a. Mr Lovelady went back into the building and stayed there until being brought down to City Hall
3b. 'Mr Lovelady' (who had been caught by Officer Baker "walking away from the stairs" on "the third or fourth floor" but vouched for as an employee by Mr Truly) stood out on the steps, smoking... he was now wearing a red plaid shirt

4. 'Mr Lovelady' (plaid shirt) was a worker in the Depository: we see him up on the sixth floor in the white t-shirt he'd been wearing... elsewhere at the time of the motorcade
(https://i.imgur.com/lL201WG.gif)

5. Both Mr Lovelady and 'Mr Lovelady' were brought down to City Hall to give statements, but...
5a. 'Mr Lovelady' was there in the squadroom when Mr Oswald was brought in
5b. Mr Lovelady was not.

Now!

You-------------being smart people------------will roll your eyes and say:

'But if this 'other Lovelady' is not Billy Lovelady, then who the heck is he? With Jack Dougherty ruled out, you're all out of candidates!'

Bien au contraire!

There are in fact two other candidates for 'Mr Lovelady':

-------Mr Franklin Kaiser
-------Mr Fred Kaiser, Jr. (white, male, 24 years old)

Messrs. Kaiser and Kaiser were brothers

-----------------One of them claimed to have been getting his teeth done at Baylor Dental Clinic the day of the assassination, yet the Depository payroll shows him having worked a full day that day
-----------------The other claimed to have quit his job at the Depository the day before the assassination.

If I am right, then Mr Lovelady's vacillating story about the shirt, and his terror of being photographed in public, came down to one thing:

He was covering for one of the Kaiser brothers.

Is this none other than the sixth-floor shooter seen by Mr Brennan, Mr Fischer, Mr Edwards and Mr Euins?:

(https://i.imgur.com/GzWnVq5.gif)

The big husky fellow on the sixth floor is not wearing only a White T shirt....He is wearing a khaki colored shirt over the white T shirt....

(https://i.imgur.com/lL201WG.gif)

Recall that Howard Brennan said the man that he'd seen was dressed in khaki colored clothing.....

'Mr Lovelady' (plaid shirt) was a worker in the Depository: we see him up on the sixth floor in the white t-shirt he'd been wearing... elsewhere at the time of the motorcade
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 21, 2019, 06:35:03 PM
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There are in fact two other candidates for 'Mr Lovelady':

-------Mr Franklin Kaiser
-------Mr Fred Kaiser, Jr. (white, male, 24 years old)

Messrs. Kaiser and Kaiser were brothers

-----------------One of them claimed to have been getting his teeth done at Baylor Dental Clinic the day of the assassination, yet the Depository payroll shows him having worked a full day that day
-----------------The other claimed to have quit his job at the Depository the day before the assassination.

From Mr Jerry Rose, The Third Decade:

(https://i.imgur.com/RCrxhvs.jpg)

Mr Truly saw to it that Mr Franklin Kaiser was not fingerprinted:

(https://i.imgur.com/aaJKuxk.jpg)
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 21, 2019, 08:15:40 PM
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The big husky fellow on the sixth floor is not wearing only a White T shirt....He is wearing a khaki colored shirt over the white T shirt....

Recall that Howard Brennan said the man that he'd seen was dressed in khaki colored clothing.....

(https://i.imgur.com/lL201WG.gif)

I'm struggling to see a shirt collar, but yes----this may be a white tee shirt under a shirt that is (to use Mr Brennan's words) "khaki"/"on the dingy side [of white]"...
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 21, 2019, 11:36:18 PM
Now!

From Detective Marvin Johnson's report on his duties on 11/22/63:

?While in the office from 3:00 pm until 2:00 am I answered the phone and took an affidavit from Patrolman M. L. Baker [?] On about the 4th floor Officer Baker apprehended a man that was walking away from the stairway on that floor. Officer Baker started to search the man, but the building manager stated that the man was an employee of the company and was known to him. Officer Baker released the man and continued his search of the building. Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he had seen on the 4th floor of the Texas School Depository.?

At the end of the report, Det. Johnson returns to the Baker theme:

?When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man that he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository Building, Patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service man. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, ?That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository?.?

If
a) ---------------------------- we were to accept this as honest and accurate recall from Det. Johnson
and
b) ---------------------------- Mr Plaid Shirt Not-Bald-On-Top-But-With-Large-Bald-Spot was not Mr Lovelady but a different employee,
then it becomes plausible that Officer Baker, seeing Mr Oswald brought in to the Homicide Office, became honestly convinced that this was the man he'd stopped by the stairway on about the 4th floor.

Soon, of course, he would be pressurised into jumping aboard the Lunchroom Bandwagon. Between his affidavit and his helpful reconstructions for the Oswald-Acted-Alone WC he went remarkably silent...

(Note: Det. Johnson recalls a detail not in the affidavit ["Officer Baker started to search the man"] but there is a complete lack of any supplement by way of 2nd fl lunchroom nonsense [one floor up! glimpse through a small window! opened a door!]...)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 22, 2019, 04:23:43 PM
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Now!

From Detective Marvin Johnson's report on his duties on 11/22/63:

?While in the office from 3:00 pm until 2:00 am I answered the phone and took an affidavit from Patrolman M. L. Baker [?] On about the 4th floor Officer Baker apprehended a man that was walking away from the stairway on that floor. Officer Baker started to search the man, but the building manager stated that the man was an employee of the company and was known to him. Officer Baker released the man and continued his search of the building. Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he had seen on the 4th floor of the Texas School Depository.?

At the end of the report, Det. Johnson returns to the Baker theme:

?When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man that he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository Building, Patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service man. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, ?That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository?.?

If
a) ---------------------------- we were to accept this as honest and accurate recall from Det. Johnson
and
b) ---------------------------- Mr Plaid Shirt Not-Bald-On-Top-But-With-Large-Bald-Spot was not Mr Lovelady but a different employee,
then it becomes plausible that Officer Baker, seeing Mr Oswald brought in to the Homicide Office, became honestly convinced that this was the man he'd stopped by the stairway on about the 4th floor.

Soon, of course, he would be pressurised into jumping aboard the Lunchroom Bandwagon. Between his affidavit and his helpful reconstructions for the Oswald-Acted-Alone WC he went remarkably silent...

(Note: Det. Johnson recalls a detail not in the affidavit ["Officer Baker started to search the man"] but there is a complete lack of any supplement by way of 2nd fl lunchroom nonsense [one floor up! glimpse through a small window! opened a door!]...)

 Thumb1:

?When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man that he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository Building, Patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service man. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, ?That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository?.?

So We have Lee Oswald right there on front of Marrion Baker as Baker was preparing a sworn affidavit in which he describes the man that he saw walking away from him near the elevator on the dimly lit  3rd or fourth floor......Baker has Lee right there in front of him and yet he describes the man he saw as being in his thirties,  weighing 165 pounds, with dark hair.....  That's NOT the description of Lee Oswald the man who was right there in front of him.     
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 22, 2019, 07:29:57 PM
Friends, I've read from less-than-reputable sources that this photo of Mr Lovelady is from 1967:

(https://i.imgur.com/damGwO4.jpg)

Can anyone confirm this date? And does anyone know who took this photo?

Any information welcome, thank you!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Zeon Mason on April 22, 2019, 11:51:03 PM
A Billy Lovelady doppelganger!  :D
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 23, 2019, 02:57:41 PM
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?When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man that he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository Building, Patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service man. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, ?That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository?.?

So We have Lee Oswald right there on front of Marrion Baker as Baker was preparing a sworn affidavit in which he describes the man that he saw walking away from him near the elevator on the dimly lit  3rd or fourth floor......Baker has Lee right there in front of him and yet he describes the man he saw as being in his thirties,  weighing 165 pounds, with dark hair.....  That's NOT the description of Lee Oswald the man who was right there in front of him.   

Fair point, I guess. Officer Baker did not amend his description to fit the man he now saw. There's also the fact that Officer Baker's affidavit says nothing about the man he encountered being the man he's just seen brought in by police.

Could be that Officer Baker told Det. Johnson something like, 'He looks a bit like the guy I searched by the stairs, but it's not him'...
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Richard Smith on April 23, 2019, 04:10:14 PM
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Let's start with this clip, taken in the squadroom at City Hall some 90 minutes after the assassination:

(https://i.imgur.com/J6EndHp.gif)

Question #1!

Given that Mr Lovelady clearly notices Mr Oswald being brought past him, why on earth will he----------in his WC testimony------------tell Mr Ball that he did not see Mr Oswald again that day from the time the Depository workers broke for lunch?

That question was preceded by a series of questions about Oswald in a work-related context at the TSBD including when Lovelady saw him there on the day of the assassination.  As a result, he did not take the question literally but within the context that he was being asked demonstrating that he had a functioning brain.   The WC was interested in how well he knew Oswald and what he observed about Oswald that day at work (where the crime was committed).  No one would care if he saw Oswald at the police station after the fact.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 23, 2019, 05:27:41 PM
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That question was preceded by a series of questions about Oswald in a work-related context at the TSBD including when Lovelady saw him there on the day of the assassination.  As a result, he did not take the question literally but within the context that he was being asked demonstrating that he had a functioning brain.   The WC was interested in how well he knew Oswald and what he observed about Oswald that day at work (where the crime was committed).  No one would care if he saw Oswald at the police station after the fact.

Richard,

That's exactly what I was thinking the other day but was way too shy to mention.

(LOL)

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 23, 2019, 05:53:44 PM
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That question was preceded by a series of questions about Oswald in a work-related context at the TSBD including when Lovelady saw him there on the day of the assassination.  As a result, he did not take the question literally but within the context that he was being asked demonstrating that he had a functioning brain.   The WC was interested in how well he knew Oswald and what he observed about Oswald that day at work (where the crime was committed).  No one would care if he saw Oswald at the police station after the fact.

How was Lovelady supposed to know what the WC was interested in?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 23, 2019, 06:30:46 PM
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How was Lovelady supposed to know what the WC was interested in?

Iacoletti,

Because in Lovelady's mind the parameters had been set by his being asked questions about Oswald's activities before the assassination.

D'oh

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 23, 2019, 07:02:00 PM
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Because in Lovelady's mind the parameters had been set by his being asked questions about Oswald's activities before the assassination.

I am underwhelmed by your mindreading claims.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 23, 2019, 07:13:27 PM
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That question was preceded by a series of questions about Oswald in a work-related context at the TSBD including when Lovelady saw him there on the day of the assassination.  As a result, he did not take the question literally but within the context that he was being asked [...]

Yes, that is indeed a possibility  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 23, 2019, 09:11:42 PM
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We can't tell that from viewing that Gif.

(https://i.postimg.cc/J7PmG5tS/Lovelady-sees-Oswald-DPD.png)
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 23, 2019, 09:28:56 PM
Friends, it has never been satisfactorily explained why Mr Lovelady's right side is dark in the Wiegman frames:

(https://i.imgur.com/wxg1oEN.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/v2R5OB7.gif)

Basic geometry rules out a shadow cast by the west pillar at the front of the entranceway!

Note how the darkness 'follows' Mr Lovelady's right side as he goes from a higher to a lower step.

What on earth are we seeing here??

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 23, 2019, 09:34:56 PM
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Well guess what Einstein, the ratio is way off. Standardised NTSC output image is 4:3. Whoever captured the video deliberately squashed the footage to make Lovelady appear thicker. Naughty naughty!

(https://i.postimg.cc/fW5M2GWN/4-3-lovelady.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/9fzx2qZb/4-3-loveladyb.gif)

Here's a comparison that is centered directly on Lovelady.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bJf2gs0L/4-3-loveladyc.gif)

JohnM

Thanks, John.

There goes the tinfoil hat "Neanderthal Theory".

-- MWT  ;)


Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 23, 2019, 09:40:16 PM
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Nope, still doesn't look like him...

LOL

You do realize, don't you, that in this frame his jaw is jutted out because he's in the process of exhaling cigarette smoke?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Rob Caprio on April 23, 2019, 10:55:54 PM
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Now!

Many people-------------even those with no time for the Oswald-Is-DoorwayMan-In-Altgens idea---------------have commented over the years on how different Mr Lovelady appears between here...

(https://i.imgur.com/6ceRxwg.gif)

...and here...

(https://i.imgur.com/uSevioa.jpg)

They've heard all the arguments about aspect ratio and light conditions, but they still feel something is off. They wonder---------despite themselves!---------Can this really be the same man?

Question #7!

What if they're right to wonder?

What if the reason this man-------

(https://i.imgur.com/jfselYl.jpg)

-------looks huskier and, well, different to the Mr Lovelady seen in other images is that he isn't actually Mr Lovelady?

That footage supposedly came from the Martin film, but it wasn't presented until 1966. The FBI received it from Time-Life then. It is better quality than the original Martin film. This man is referred to as "Gorilla Man" and you are right as it looks very different from Lovelady in a number of aspects.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 24, 2019, 10:42:29 PM
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That footage supposedly came from the Martin film, but it wasn't presented until 1966. The FBI received it from Time-Life then. It is better quality than the original Martin film. This man is referred to as "Gorilla Man" and you are right as it looks very different from Lovelady in a number of aspects.

Thank you for this information, Mr Caprio!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 25, 2019, 06:58:36 PM
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Friends, it has never been satisfactorily explained why Mr Lovelady's right side is dark in the Wiegman frames:

(https://i.imgur.com/wxg1oEN.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/v2R5OB7.gif)

Basic geometry rules out a shadow cast by the west pillar at the front of the entranceway!

Note how the darkness 'follows' Mr Lovelady's right side as he goes from a higher to a lower step.

What on earth are we seeing here??

 Thumb1:

Friends, I find it hard to believe that the FBI misunderstood what Mr Lovelady told them about the short-sleeved shirt with red and white stripes, or that Mr Lovelady misunderstood their instructions to him regarding what to bring to the photograph session:

(https://i.imgur.com/1ZE0ptB.jpg)

The point of this session was simple-----------------to lock down the (correct) identification of Mr Lovelady as the man in the doorway in the Altgens photo. How? By showing that he looked just like him!

No way is it an accident that Mr Lovelady poses for the camera with several buttons of his shirt open to reveal a white tshirt below. This is the 'Altgens Look'!

Now!

I think there may be a benign (well, semi-benign!) explanation for the Lovelady shirt fiasco we've been considering...

In the weeks and months following the assassination, there was intense interest in the Altgens photograph. Many people were convinced it showed Mr Oswald.

It didn't! The man in the doorway was Mr Billy Lovelady. But! The FBI had their work cut out in convincing people of this. And convince people of this they must, at all costs...

Now! If we look at the wirephoto that for a long time was the Altgens photo as far as the general public were concerned, we see something interesting.

Let's start with what Mr Walter Cronkite showed the American people that evening:

(https://i.imgur.com/Q3sGPkP.gif)

And!

(https://i.imgur.com/cBary KampMMle.gif)

And!

(https://i.imgur.com/Lq6yHwd.gif)

And!

(https://i.imgur.com/kVb5cy6.gif)

What do we see here? Not the right question! The right question is: What did people at the time think they saw?

The man in the doorway's unclothed lower left arm.

The Altgens photograph as published by the WC will have done little to dispel this impression:

(https://i.imgur.com/7AO1FWU.gif)

Theory!

The FBI told Mr Lovelady to bring a short-sleeved shirt to the photograph session, in order that his appearance in those photos would conform to that of the man in the doorway!
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Ray Mitcham on April 25, 2019, 07:13:36 PM
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Friends, I find it hard to believe that the FBI misunderstood what Mr Lovelady told them about the short-sleeved shirt with red and white stripes, or that Mr Lovelady misunderstood their instructions to him regarding what to bring to the photograph session:

(https://i.imgur.com/1ZE0ptB.jpg)

The point of this session was simple-----------------to lock down the (correct) identification of Mr Lovelady as the man in the doorway in the Altgens photo. How? By showing that he looked just like him!

No way is it an accident that Mr Lovelady poses for the camera with several buttons of his shirt open to reveal a white tshirt below. This is the 'Altgens Look'!

Now!

I think there may be a benign (well, semi-benign!) explanation for the Lovelady shirt fiasco we've been considering...

In the weeks and months following the assassination, there was intense interest in the Altgens photograph. Many people were convinced it showed Mr Oswald.

It didn't! The man in the doorway was Mr Billy Lovelady. But! The FBI had their work cut out in convincing people of this. And convince people of this they must, at all costs...

Now! If we look at the wirephoto that for a long time was the Altgens photo as far as the general public were concerned, we see something interesting.

Let's start with what Mr Walter Cronkite showed the American people that evening:

(https://i.imgur.com/Q3sGPkP.gif)

And!

(https://i.imgur.com/cBary KampMMle.gif)

And!

(https://i.imgur.com/Lq6yHwd.gif)

And!

(https://i.imgur.com/kVb5cy6.gif)

What do we see here? Not the right question! The right question is: What did people at the time think they saw?

The man in the doorway's unclothed lower left arm.

The Altgens photograph as published by the WC will have done little to dispel this impression:

(https://i.imgur.com/7AO1FWU.gif)

Theory!

The FBI told Mr Lovelady to bring a short-sleeved shirt to the photograph session, in order that his appearance in those photos would conform to that of the man in the doorway!

Trouble is Lovelady's arm in Altgens6 is not a bare arm. You can see the same pattern of his shirt on it.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 25, 2019, 10:54:34 PM
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Theory!

The FBI told Mr Lovelady to bring a short-sleeved shirt to the photograph session, in order that his appearance in those photos would conform to that of the man in the doorway!

But!

Mr Lovelady's arm in the Altgens photo never was Mr Lovelady's arm, and the realization of this led to... complications.

But if not Mr Lovelady's arm, then what?

Let's start with this!:

(https://i.imgur.com/U0MfXbr.gif)

Now!

What if...

(https://i.imgur.com/AKypsOZ.gif)

To illustrate more graphically!:

(https://i.imgur.com/XGsWmsz.gif)

Another person on those steps (lower than Mr Lovelady, not as far west as Mr Carl Edward Jones)... shielding their eyes from the sun.

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 26, 2019, 12:11:04 AM
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Another person on those steps (lower than Mr Lovelady, not as far west as Mr Carl Edward Jones)... shielding their eyes from the sun.

 Thumb1:

But who can this person have been?

Why, Mr Lee Harvey Oswald, obviously!

Only kidding  :D

No! The guy who said this:

(https://i.imgur.com/xlEja8z.jpg)

That's right: young Mr Roy Edward Lewis!

(https://i.imgur.com/KIEGlq1.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Ray Mitcham on April 26, 2019, 09:00:45 AM
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But who can this person have been?

Why, Mr Lee Harvey Oswald, obviously!

Only kidding  :D

No! The guy who said this:

(https://i.imgur.com/xlEja8z.jpg)

That's right: young Mr Roy Edward Lewis!

(https://i.imgur.com/KIEGlq1.jpg)

 Thumb1:

So you believe Roy Edward lewis was standing in front of Carl Jones, Alan?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 26, 2019, 10:24:05 AM
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So you believe Roy Edward lewis was standing in front of Carl Jones, Alan?

No, Mr Mitcham, I'm suggesting he was slightly east of, and a step back from, Mr Jones!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Ray Mitcham on April 26, 2019, 11:59:36 AM
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No, Mr Mitcham, I'm suggesting he was slightly east of, and a step back from, Mr Jones!  Thumb1:

So that would make him between Lovelady and Jones? Do any of the frames from the various films show anybody in that position?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on April 26, 2019, 12:12:18 PM
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But!

Mr Lovelady's arm in the Altgens photo never was Mr Lovelady's arm, and the realization of this led to... complications.

But if not Mr Lovelady's arm, then what?

Let's start with this!:

(https://i.imgur.com/U0MfXbr.gif)

Now!

What if...

(https://i.imgur.com/AKypsOZ.gif)

To illustrate more graphically!:

(https://i.imgur.com/XGsWmsz.gif)

Another person on those steps (lower than Mr Lovelady, not as far west as Mr Carl Edward Jones)... shielding their eyes from the sun.

 Thumb1:

This looks like a job for........ Ralph Cinque !!!
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 26, 2019, 12:33:47 PM
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This looks like a job for........ Ralph Cinque !!!

 :D

Much as Mr Doyle went mad trying to make Prayer Man into Ms Sarah Stanton, so Mr Cinque before him went mad trying to make Mr Lovelady into Mr Oswald!

Now, Mr Oblazney...

How do you explain the fact that Mr Lovelady's right side is in darkness in the Wiegman film?

(https://i.imgur.com/wxg1oEN.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/v2R5OB7.gif)

Looking forward to hearing your analysis!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Ray Mitcham on April 26, 2019, 01:53:51 PM
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:D

Much as Mr Doyle went mad trying to make Prayer Man into Ms Sarah Stanton, so Mr Cinque before him went mad trying to make Mr Lovelady into Mr Oswald!

Now, Mr Oblazney...

How do you explain the fact that Mr Lovelady's right side is in darkness in the Wiegman film?

(https://i.imgur.com/wxg1oEN.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/v2R5OB7.gif)

Looking forward to hearing your analysis!  Thumb1:

Alan, it is the shadow of the left pillar at the entrance of the building.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 26, 2019, 02:10:03 PM
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Alan, it is the shadow of the left pillar at the entrance of the building.

I agree, Ray.....
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 26, 2019, 08:33:50 PM
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Alan, it is the shadow of the left pillar at the entrance of the building.

I'm sorry, Mr Mitcham, but that is a physical impossibility.

Here is Mr A Stancak's reconstruction of the doorway in Darnell. (We can, for present purposes, ignore Mr Frazier & Mr Stancak's rendition of Prayer Man.) The position of the sun would hardly have changed between the scene in Wiegman and that in Darnell! I have highlighted the shadow line created by the west pillar:

(https://i.imgur.com/FYvT0CL.gif)

Are you seriously suggesting that Mr Lovelady in both frames below is so far west that nearly half his body is in the shadow of the west pillar?

(https://i.imgur.com/wxg1oEN.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/v2R5OB7.gif)

A complete non-starter!
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Ray Mitcham on April 26, 2019, 10:32:53 PM
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I'm sorry, Mr Mitcham, but that is a physical impossibility.

No need for the Mr, Alan, perfectly happy with Ray, and it isn't a physical impossibility.
Quote
Here is Mr A Stancak's reconstruction of the doorway in Darnell. (We can, for present purposes, ignore Mr Frazier & Mr Stancak's rendition of Prayer Man.) The position of the sun would hardly have changed between the scene in Wiegman and that in Darnell! I have highlighted the shadow line created by the west pillar:

(https://i.imgur.com/FYvT0CL.gif)

Are you seriously suggesting that Mr Lovelady in both frames below is so far west that nearly half his body is in the shadow of the west pillar?

(https://i.imgur.com/wxg1oEN.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/v2R5OB7.gif)

A complete non-starter!

Sorry, Re Stancek's reconstruction. Where  is Lovelady in it?

The shadow on Frazier is caused by the stone lintel over the entrance.

The shadow on Lovelady  is caused by the west pillar of the entrance.

If you disagree what do you think caused the black "shadow"?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Jerry Freeman on April 27, 2019, 04:27:15 AM
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Sorry, Re Stancek's reconstruction. Where  is Lovelady in it?
I was wondering that myself.
 
Quote
The shadow on Frazier is caused by the stone lintel over the entrance.
Why are there only 4 people in the 'reconstruction'?
 
Quote
If you disagree what do you think caused the black "shadow"?
I think it is the position of the sun in relation to the structure involved. IOW an object that does not allow any light to pass through....(https://www.raptureforums.com/forums/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/hat.gif)
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 27, 2019, 09:42:01 AM
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Sorry, Re Stancek's reconstruction. Where  is Lovelady in it?

Don't worry about the human figures in Mr Stancak's reconstruction! This is his minimal setting of the Darnell scene, which I am using purely to illustrate the shadow line from the west pillar at 12.30pm on 11/22/63:

(https://i.imgur.com/FYvT0CL.gif)

The shadow line would be the same for the time of Altgens and Wiegman, yes?

Now--------Unless Mr Stancak has gotten the sun's angle wildly wrong, the shadow from the west pillar would only catch Mr Lovelady if he were much farther west of the entranceway's center railing:

(https://i.imgur.com/3PCU22I.jpg)

Like I say, it is a physical impossibility that the darkness down the right side of Mr Lovelady's body is a shadow. That side of his body was in full sunlight!
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 27, 2019, 09:44:52 AM
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  I think it is the position of the sun in relation to the structure involved.

The position of the sun in relation to the structure involved is precisely what rules out the darkness down Mr Lovelady's right side's being explicable as a shadow cast by the entranceway's west pillar!
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Ray Mitcham on April 27, 2019, 11:39:55 AM
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Don't worry about the human figures in Mr Stancak's reconstruction! This is his minimal setting of the Darnell scene, which I am using purely to illustrate the shadow line from the west pillar at 12.30pm on 11/22/63:

(https://i.imgur.com/FYvT0CL.gif)

The shadow line would be the same for the time of Altgens and Wiegman, yes?

Now--------Unless Mr Stancak has gotten the sun's angle wildly wrong, the shadow from the west pillar would only catch Mr Lovelady if he were much farther west of the entranceway's center railing:

(https://i.imgur.com/3PCU22I.jpg)

Like I say, it is a physical impossibility that the darkness down the right side of Mr Lovelady's body is a shadow. That side of his body was in full sunlight!

As I asked above, Alan, "If you disagree what do you think caused the black "shadow"?"

Can you let me have the link to his reconstruction on the other forum, Alan, I can't seem to find it?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 27, 2019, 11:58:46 AM
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As I asked above, Alan, "If you disagree what do you think caused the black "shadow"?"

Something that is not a natural shadow!

Quote
Can you let me have the link to his reconstruction on the other forum, Alan, I can't seem to find it?

Here's the link to Mr Stancak's blog: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2016/04/

If you find evidence that he has gotten the sun angle wildly wrong, I'd be interested to hear it. (Mr Doyle tried to make just such an argument, but----as per usual----he was just howling at the moon!)

Mr Hackerott, in his 3D computer modelling, leads us to the same result (and again, I post this merely to illustrate the shadowline as of 12.30pm on 11/22/63):

--------------------far too little of the west side of the entranceway was in shadow for Mr Lovelady in Wiegman to have been caught by it in the way Wiegman appears to show:

(https://i.imgur.com/P6DWc7O.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZYIibG6.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/zfgud8T.gif)

Not complicated!
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Ray Mitcham on April 27, 2019, 01:21:02 PM
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Something that is not a natural shadow!

Here's the link to Mr Stancak's blog: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2016/04/

If you find evidence that he has gotten the sun angle wildly wrong, I'd be interested to hear it. (Mr Doyle tried to make just such an argument, but----as per usual----he was just howling at the moon!)

Mr Hackerott, in his 3D computer modelling, leads us to the same result (and again, I post this merely to illustrate the shadowline as of 12.30pm on 11/22/63):

--------------------far too little of the west side of the entranceway was in shadow for Mr Lovelady in Wiegman to have been caught by it in the way Wiegman appears to show:

(https://i.imgur.com/P6DWc7O.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZYIibG6.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/zfgud8T.gif)

Not complicated!
Alan, Andrej  Stancek's web site doesn't show the overhead view, which in the past, when he posted on the Ed forum, I  agreed he had the correct angle of the sun. Until I find it again, I am unable to show you where I believe Lovelady was.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 27, 2019, 01:33:46 PM
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Alan, Andrej  Stancek's web site doesn't show the overhead view, which in the past, when he posted on the Ed forum, I  agreed he had the correct angle of the sun. Until I find it again, I am unable to show you where I believe Lovelady was.

Is this one you mean?

(https://i.imgur.com/mdlgjjq.jpg)

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Ray Mitcham on April 27, 2019, 01:59:18 PM
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Is this one you mean?

(https://i.imgur.com/mdlgjjq.jpg)

 Thumb1:

Thanks, Alan.

I believe that Lovelady is standing directly in front of Prayerman with his right foot on the right hand side of the green line as we look at it. This would mean the shadow would be on half of his body. I assume that you believe he was standing in full sunlight, and if so, this is where we disagree.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Jerry Freeman on April 27, 2019, 02:40:01 PM
What we fail to see [unless I missed it somewhere] is an actual photograph of the landing taken on any sunny 12:30 on any given Nov 22 or thereabouts from that same camera location where-ever that is.
If I could ever find Robt Groden again...I'll ask him about it.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 27, 2019, 02:57:31 PM
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Thanks, Alan.

I believe that Lovelady is standing directly in front of Prayerman with his right foot on the right hand side of the green line as we look at it. This would mean the shadow would be on half of his body.

So Mr Lovelady is standing directly behind Mr Carl Jones in this frame?

(https://i.imgur.com/zfgud8T.gif)

Seriously?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 27, 2019, 03:00:51 PM
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What we fail to see [unless I missed it somewhere] is an actual photograph of the landing taken on any sunny 12:30 on any given Nov 22 or thereabouts from that same camera location where-ever that is.
If I could ever find Robt Groden again...I'll ask him about it.

So you're not querying the meticulous sun angle calculations of Mr Stancak or Mr Hackerott and have no counter-analysis of your own to offer. Yet you don't wish to see the obvious implications of the sun's angle for your reality-denying belief that what is causing the darkness down Mr Lovelady's right side is shadow from the west pillar.

Got it!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Ray Mitcham on April 27, 2019, 03:03:44 PM
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What we fail to see [unless I missed it somewhere] is an actual photograph of the landing taken on any sunny 12:30 on any given Nov 22 or thereabouts from that same camera location where-ever that is.
If I could ever find Robt Groden again...I'll ask him about it.

That would be handy, Jerry, but in the mean time, maybe physics can help.

The TSBD is situated at an approximate angle of 13˚West of North.
The sun's azimuth  at 12.30 p.m on 11.22.63 was 185.32˚ (i.e.5.32˚ West of South) which gives us the sun shadow in the Entrance of 18˚ West of North,(13+5.32) or as we look at Andrej's plan view of the entrance at 18˚approx in relation to North. Which seems to agree with Andrej's model.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Ray Mitcham on April 27, 2019, 03:06:33 PM
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So you're not querying the meticulous sun angle calculations of Mr Stancak or Mr Hackerott and have no counter-analysis of your own to offer. Yet you don't wish to see the obvious implications of the sun's angle for your reality-denying belief that what is causing the darkness down Mr Lovelady's right side is shadow from the west pillar.

Got it!  Thumb1:

No. I am not querying either of those two, but I am suggesting that Lovelady is further to the west of the steps than you believe.

As for reality denying belief, I don't have one, but I can understand what happens in photographs.

As you don't think the black is the shadow, what do you think caused it, Fakery?
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Ray Mitcham on April 27, 2019, 03:08:40 PM
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So Mr Lovelady is standing directly behind Mr Carl Jones in this frame?

(https://i.imgur.com/zfgud8T.gif)

yes but slightly to his left.
Quote
Seriously?

You seriously don't think it is the shadow of the left pillar? Sheesh.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 27, 2019, 03:10:11 PM
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No. I am not querying either of those two, but I am suggesting that Lovelady is further to the west of the steps than you believe.

As for reality denying belief, I don't have one, but I can understand what happens in photographs.

As you don't think the black is the shadow, what do you think caused it, Fakery?

The post you are replying to here was my response to Mr Freeman, not to you!

You are engaging seriously in the issue, he is not.  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Ray Mitcham on April 27, 2019, 03:16:10 PM
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The post you are replying to here was my response to Mr Freeman, not to you!

You are engaging seriously in the issue, he is not.  Thumb1:

Apologies, Alan.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 27, 2019, 03:16:41 PM
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No. Behind and to Jones's left.

But you said that "Lovelady is standing directly in front of Prayerman". Is that really what you see here?

(https://i.imgur.com/cwMz2z2.jpg)

And here?

(https://i.imgur.com/A90IrE2.jpg)

It's blindingly obvious that Mr Lovelady is well to the east of Prayer Man, and hence well to the east of the shadowline!
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 27, 2019, 03:17:00 PM
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Apologies, Alan.

Not a problem!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 27, 2019, 03:42:51 PM
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But!

Mr Lovelady's arm in the Altgens photo never was Mr Lovelady's arm, and the realization of this led to... complications.

Now!

Allow me, friends, to state once again the most important point:

The man in the doorway in the Altgens photograph is not Mr Lee Harvey Oswald but Mr Billy Nolan Lovelady!

The FBI knows this, but they also know that they have a job of work to do if they are to convince the public of this-----------and thereby close down a major threat to belief in Mr Oswald's guilt.

And so the FBI, in their zeal to make Mr Lovelady's appearance conform as fully as possible to the apparent appearance of the doorway man in Altgens, photograph him on 29 Feb 1964 in a short-sleeved shirt with several buttons open to show a white tee shirt underneath.

However!

In mid-March, the Oswald-Acted-Alone investigation gets wind of a film taken by Mr John Martin, Jr. Upon studying his film, they discover to their horror that Mr Lovelady is shown standing on the steps in a long-sleeved red/black/white plaid shirt---------just after they have gone to the trouble of putting Mr Lovelady on the record about a short-sleeved shirt with vertical red and white stripes, and photographing him in that shirt!

Thus what began as a (semi-)benign fiction will ironically only serve to fuel conspiracy suspicions about the Altgens photograph and about Mr Lovelady himself for years to come...

Back to 1964:

The official script must change:
-------Mr Lovelady must have misunderstood the instructions given to him ahead of the photograph session
-------the FBI must have misunderstood what he said about the shirt he was wearing that day.


From here on in, it's bye bye unclothed lower arm of Mr Lovelady... and hello plaid-covered lower arm of Mr Lovelady!

But it was never Mr Lovelady's arm to begin with
---------------a fact all too unfortunately revealed in another film taken of that entranceway...

The Wiegman film!

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Chris Davidson on April 27, 2019, 08:08:35 PM
The only other instance I found.
(https://oi140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/Shadow.gif)
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Chris Davidson on April 27, 2019, 08:23:47 PM
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But who can this person have been?

Why, Mr Lee Harvey Oswald, obviously!

Only kidding  :D

No! The guy who said this:

(https://i.imgur.com/xlEja8z.jpg)


That's right: young Mr Roy Edward Lewis!

(https://i.imgur.com/KIEGlq1.jpg)

 Thumb1:
A few more.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40749236453_f203acee86_o.png)
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Alan Ford on April 27, 2019, 08:55:19 PM
Thanks to some nicely ambiguous language in CE1381 (the '18 March 1964' FBI Depository witness interview collection)--------------

(https://i.imgur.com/ubHRrdZ.jpg)

--------------Mr Roy Edward Lewis was disappeared from the front steps.

(Elsewhere in CE1381, anyone in the entranceway is associated explicitly with "front steps" or a particular front "step"...)

It was only years later, when Mr Larry Sneed interviewed Mr Lewis---------------

(https://i.imgur.com/L33rWgx.jpg)

----------------that Mr Lewis had a chance to set the record straight!

 Thumb1:
Title: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 27, 2019, 11:15:14 PM
If you look at the Stancak overhead graphic of the portal Stancak shows sun on Prayer Man's bent leg...However if you go to the Darnell image of Prayer Man there is no sun on Prayer Man's leg...There is no bent leg at all...This proves that Prayer Man is standing on the landing and is therefore too short to be Oswald when compared to Frazier...When I pointed this out to Stancak at Moricet's forum he protested that too many people were attacking his evidence and he was going to retreat back to the other forum...He never, however, admitted this fatal gaffe he made in his own graphic that once again proved what I was saying was correct and had proven Prayer Man was Stanton...

I have recently discovered the person standing face to face with the woman in black on the steps is Molina...

(https://i.imgur.com/mdlgjjq.jpg)
Title: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 27, 2019, 11:21:34 PM
Alan fails to account for the fact this image is at a sharp 40 degree angle to the portal and skews perspective...

Instead of taking perspective in to account Alan tries to challenge the legitimacy of the shadow...The shadow is what is real because it can't be anything else...So instead of honoring the real evidence Alan disputes it and challenges its real-ness even though there is no way it can't be real...

The answer is once you understand the sharp 40 degree angle to the portal the photo is taken at it shows that Lovelady is further back and west in the portal than the image makes you believe...It tells you Lovelady is intersecting the shadow and that tells you where he is...

The dynamic Alan refuses to recognize is Lovelady went from his position all the way over to the right wall of the portal in Hughes 10 seconds before to the position you see here because he was tracking the limousine down Elm St...Lovelady described Stanton as being next to him over at the far right side 10 seconds before in Hughes...What The Lithping Larry Grayson "Oooh Shut That Door" doppleganger and Alan fail to process is the image he is showing is Wiegman that Chris Davidson proved showed the face of a woman on Prayer at this exact moment (and also 10 seconds after Lovelady described her as being right in that spot over by the west wall)...   

Pretty simple...


(https://i.imgur.com/zfgud8T.gif)
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Rob Caprio on April 28, 2019, 10:23:19 PM
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Thank you for this information, Mr Caprio!  Thumb1:

You're welcome Mr. Ford.
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 28, 2019, 10:44:02 PM
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Alan fails to account for the fact this image is at a sharp 40 degree angle to the portal and skews perspective...

Instead of taking perspective in to account Alan tries to challenge the legitimacy of the shadow...The shadow is what is real because it can't be anything else...So instead of honoring the real evidence Alan disputes it and challenges its real-ness even though there is no way it can't be real...

The answer is once you understand the sharp 40 degree angle to the portal the photo is taken at it shows that Lovelady is further back and west in the portal than the image makes you believe...It tells you Lovelady is intersecting the shadow and that tells you where he is...

The dynamic Alan refuses to recognize is Lovelady went from his position all the way over to the right wall of the portal in Hughes 10 seconds before to the position you see here because he was tracking the limousine down Elm St...Lovelady described Stanton as being next to him over at the far right side 10 seconds before in Hughes...What The Lithping Larry Grayson "Oooh Shut That Door" doppleganger and Alan fail to process is the image he is showing is Wiegman that Chris Davidson proved showed the face of a woman on Prayer at this exact moment (and also 10 seconds after Lovelady described her as being right in that spot over by the west wall)...   

Pretty simple...


(https://i.imgur.com/zfgud8T.gif)

Alan fails to account for the fact this image is at a sharp 40 degree angle to the portal and skews perspective...

This would be a good time to call everybody's attention to the shadow angles..... When viewing photos of the alleged  "Sniper's Nest"  Pay attention to the shadows being cast .....   They are a time stamp for identifying when the photo was taken.....  Some may be surprised to learn that photos that the DPD swore were taken that afternoon ere actually taken when the sun was in the morning quadrant....
Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Zeon Mason on April 28, 2019, 11:47:25 PM

(https://i.imgur.com/mdlgjjq.jpg)


I would like to note here, that the edge of the top landing is one step BACK from the protruding brick relief column.

Therfore if this computer image model of PM location is correct, PM is literally at the EDGE of the landing, and coincidentally, the Dr. Pepper bottle was found right there in the RECESS so on the very NEXT lower step from the edge of the landing.

If possible, someone should draw a yellow line to denote in this plan view perspective the actual edge of the top landing.

Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 29, 2019, 04:17:55 AM
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Lovelady described Stanton as being next to him over at the far right side 10 seconds before in Hughes...

No he didn?t. You made that up.
Title: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 29, 2019, 05:24:15 AM
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If you look at the Stancak overhead graphic of the portal Stancak shows sun on Prayer Man's bent leg...However if you go to the Darnell image of Prayer Man there is no sun on Prayer Man's leg...There is no bent leg at all...This proves that Prayer Man is standing on the landing and is therefore too short to be Oswald when compared to Frazier...When I pointed this out to Stancak at Moricet's forum he protested that too many people were attacking his evidence and he was going to retreat back to the other forum...He never, however, admitted this fatal gaffe he made in his own graphic that once again proved what I was saying was correct and had proven Prayer Man was Stanton...

I have recently discovered the person standing face to face with the woman in black on the steps is Molina...

(https://i.imgur.com/mdlgjjq.jpg)


I want to note that I made the post above that conclusively refuted Stancak's leg on the step claim by showing there was no sun on Prayer Man's leg in Darnell...Stancak showed if Prayer Man's leg was on the step there would have to be sunlight on his bent leg...In other words Stancak refuted himself but didn't notice...

My post and its conclusive proof was ignored...

Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Zeon Mason on April 30, 2019, 12:43:53 AM
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I want to note that I made the post above that conclusively refuted Stancak's leg on the step claim by showing there was no sun on Prayer Man's leg in Darnell...Stancak showed if Prayer Man's leg was on the step there would have to be sunlight on his bent leg...In other words Stancak refuted himself but didn't notice...

My post and its conclusive proof was ignored...


Are you saying the shadow pattern on the floor in this 3d computer model is wrong?

If it is correct, than PM's RIGHT FOOT is VERY CLOSE to the  top edge of the landing about a half a foot away from where that Dr.Pepper bottle was found on immediate next step down in the RECESS!!


Title: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 30, 2019, 03:31:53 PM
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Are you saying the shadow pattern on the floor in this 3d computer model is wrong?

If it is correct, than PM's RIGHT FOOT is VERY CLOSE to the  top edge of the landing about a half a foot away from where that Dr.Pepper bottle was found on immediate next step down in the RECESS!!


I'll assume you are asking sincerely...

I have explained this adequately...If you look at Stancak's overhead graphic you can see he has Prayer Man standing with his right foot on the step...Prayer Man has his left leg bent in order to have the right foot on the step...If you look at where Stancak has drawn his sun border you can see he has Prayer Man's bent left leg protruding in to the sun...However if you go to the Darnell image of Prayer Man you can see there is no sun on his leg and he is all the way back in to the shadows...This proves that Prayer Man does not have his left leg bent and is not standing with his right foot on the step...It proves that Prayer Man is standing up on the landing platform and is therefore too short to be Oswald...

I pointed this out to Stancak on Moricet's page and he replied that all people wanted to do was attack his graphics and that he was only going to post at the other forum...He never made any attempt to answer the visible gaffe he had made that proved our case...

Title: Re: Mr Billy Lovelady
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 30, 2019, 05:09:00 PM
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I pointed this out to Stancak on Moricet's page and he replied that all people wanted to do was attack his graphics and that he was only going to post at the other forum...He never made any attempt to answer the visible gaffe he had made that proved our case...

Stancak didn't say that -- you just made it up.