JFK Assassination Forum

Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Photographic Film Video & Audio Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: James Hackerott on April 15, 2019, 03:31:51 AM

Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: James Hackerott on April 15, 2019, 03:31:51 AM
This scene is burned in my mind as representing the three women Stella Jacob, Karen Holt and Sharon Simmons. The following animation frame count was thinned by about 75% to manage size while still capturing the action which lasts almost 4 seconds in real time. This scene follows the frames included in Denis Morissette's Darnell compilation showing the women while still on the pergola patio, which after duplicate frames are removed lasts a little more than 1.4 seconds.

The women have now left the pergola patio and are on the grass still walking eastward. Off camera to the right there seems to be one or more people interacting with the women. Sharon points with her left hand's index finger over her right shoulder ? perhaps indicating where they stood during the shooting. Karen displays her horror of the event while raising her open right hand to her chest as if to punctuate what she is saying. Stella is more animated yet, boldly splaying her hands while rolling her eyes skyward, seemingly with a slight grin grimace on her face.
(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)

While a little  hard to detect in the very late frames, Darnell and the women stop walking but the women continue to interact with those hidden figures out of frame. Are they being interviewed by reporters or law enforcement? Obviously, I don't know, but at some point Jacob, Holt and Simmons talked with Deputy C.L. ?Lummie? Lewis of the Dallas County Sheriff's Department. In his supplemental investigation report November 23, 1963 he specifically wrote on page 1 that he talked with these three women.

(https://i.imgur.com/kRyVTg2.png)

James
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 15, 2019, 05:01:11 AM
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This scene is burned in my mind as representing the three women Stella Jacob, Karen [sic] Holt and Sharon Simmons. The following animation frame count was thinned by about 75% to manage size while still capturing the action which lasts almost 4 seconds in real time. This scene follows the frames included in Denis Morissette's Darnell compilation showing the women while still on the pergola patio, which after duplicate frames are removed lasts a little more than 1.4 seconds.

The women have now left the pergola patio and are on the grass still walking eastward. Off camera to the right there seems to be one or more people interacting with the women. Sharon points with her left hand's index finger over her right shoulder ? perhaps indicating where they stood during the shooting. Karen displays her horror of the event while raising her open right hand to her chest as if to punctuate what she is saying. Stella is more animated yet, boldly splaying her hands while rolling her eyes skyward, seemingly with a slight grin on her face.
(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)

While a little  hard to detect in the very late frames, Darnell and the women stop walking but the women continue to interact with those hidden figures out of frame. Are they being interviewed by reporters or law enforcement? Obviously, I don't know, but at some point Jacob, Holt and Simmons talked with Deputy C.L. ?Lummie? Lewis of the Dallas County Sheriff's Department. In his supplemental investigation report November 23, 1963 he specifically wrote on page 1 that he talked with these three women.

(https://i.imgur.com/kRyVTg2.png)

James

Great post, James.

I'd never seen that clip or that document before.

It makes sense that Lummie would have been talking with them or at least listening to them there.

They were well off the Pergola Patio at the time.

Looks as though Jacob has a scarf around her neck and that she is somewhat "bucktoothed".

Two men pass from left to right behind them. I wonder who they were, and whether or not they were caught in any "time stamped" photographic images around the Grassy Knoll after the assassination?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 15, 2019, 06:01:22 AM

Behold, I give you (from left to right) Westbrook's "Probably Carol Reed, Definitely Gloria Calvery, and Me, Karen Westbrook!"

LOL

(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)

-- MWT   ;)
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 15, 2019, 06:05:15 AM
Jacob, Holt, and Simmons beyond a doubt - no doubt what so ever...

I have Holt's e-mail address...I wonder if I could get this to her?

No apology or retraction from The Lithping Larry Grayson "Oooh Shut That Door" doppleganger...

"Hopeless"...

Let's get a word from Iacoletti about the timing of these obviously strolling women well after ALL the evidence has proven beyond a doubt that this is too far after the shots to be Calvery who ran back to the steps shouting and crying...Answer this specifically Iacoletti and show us a good example of the honest precision you demand...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 16, 2019, 04:11:38 AM
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Behold, I give you (from left to right) Westbrook's "Probably Carol Reed, Definitely Gloria Calvery, and Me, Karen Westbrook!"

Nope. Westbrook didn?t look at the Darnell footage. Try again.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 16, 2019, 04:13:21 AM
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Jacob, Holt, and Simmons beyond a doubt - no doubt what so ever...

I have Holt's e-mail address...I wonder if I could get this to her?

No apology or retraction from The Lithping Larry Grayson "Oooh Shut That Door" doppleganger...

"Hopeless"...

Let's get a word from Iacoletti about the timing of these obviously strolling women well after ALL the evidence has proven beyond a doubt that this is too far after the shots to be Calvery who ran back to the steps shouting and crying...Answer this specifically Iacoletti and show us a good example of the honest precision you demand...

Again, Mr. Clueless, nobody is claiming that Calvery is one of the Darnell women.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 16, 2019, 06:13:03 AM
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Again, Mr. Clueless, nobody is claiming that Calvery is one of the Darnell women.

No, Iacoletti.  You and Westbrook are claiming that Calvery is one of the Darnell gals, but you evidently don't realize it.

The three gals in Towner and the three gals in Darnell are the same people, and they are also visible in Zapruder "by" the Stemmons Sign.  Simmons is the one wearing the blue headscarf, Holt is the one with the strawberry-blond hair, and Jacob is the one with the poofed-up black hair, the dark complexion (as can be seen in Z-60, etc), and the off-white skirt and dark brown jacket.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 16, 2019, 06:20:52 AM
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Again, Mr. Clueless, nobody is claiming that Calvery is one of the Darnell women.


A very slippery statement designed to get you out of answering what this shows...What you are saying there is absolutely false and it can be correctly said that Westbrook is claiming that the middle woman (Holt) is Calvery...

I don't believe that you can't see the blue scarf on the woman in Towner...I also don't believe you can't see the brown jacket and white skirt on Jacob in both Zapruder and Towner...Every single other participant in this thread can see them and Duncan refuses to give a ruling...By normal standards this proves that the 3 Women in Zapruder by the Stemmons sign are the same 3 Women in Towner which in fact proves that Westbrook is saying Holt in this new video is Calvery...If you bother to recall correctly that's what this whole debate was about in the first place...

Your replies are evasive and noticeably avoid responding to the evidence...You're denying proven evidence...You are the only person saying the 3 Women are not the same in the photographs...

When Ray Mitcham was cornered by the facts he tried a similar cop-out saying he never said Prayer Man was Oswald...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 16, 2019, 07:54:59 PM
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No, Iacoletti.  You and Westbrook are claiming that Calvery is one of the Darnell gals, but you evidently don't realize it.

The three gals in Towner and the three gals in Darnell are the same people,

Says you.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 16, 2019, 07:57:08 PM
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A very slippery statement designed to get you out of answering what this shows...What you are saying there is absolutely false and it can be correctly said that Westbrook is claiming that the middle woman (Holt) is Calvery...

I don't know what Westbrook interview you think you saw, but in the one I watched, the Darnell clip wasn't shown or discussed at all.

Quote
I don't believe that you can't see the blue scarf on the woman in Towner...I also don't believe you can't see the brown jacket and white skirt on Jacob in both Zapruder and Towner...

I know that your opinion, but that's all it is.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on April 16, 2019, 09:24:51 PM
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A very slippery statement designed to get you out of answering what this shows...What you are saying there is absolutely false and it can be correctly said that Westbrook is claiming that the middle woman (Holt) is Calvery...

I don't believe that you can't see the blue scarf on the woman in Towner...I also don't believe you can't see the brown jacket and white skirt on Jacob in both Zapruder and Towner...Every single other participant in this thread can see them and Duncan refuses to give a ruling...By normal standards this proves that the 3 Women in Zapruder by the Stemmons sign are the same 3 Women in Towner which in fact proves that Westbrook is saying Holt in this new video is Calvery...If you bother to recall correctly that's what this whole debate was about in the first place...

Your replies are evasive and noticeably avoid responding to the evidence...You're denying proven evidence...You are the only person saying the 3 Women are not the same in the photographs...

When Ray Mitcham was cornered by the facts he tried a similar cop-out saying he never said Prayer Man was Oswald...

     Since when does Duncan decide who/what is right or wrong?  Begging for support makes You along with whatever your Position may be appear weak. Cut the apron strings and Man Up.
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 16, 2019, 09:38:38 PM

Anyone who pretends they can't see the blue scarf, brown jacket, and white skirt in Towner isn't being honest...You're changing the subject Royell and not answering the point...You didn't complain when OBlazney ran to Duncan with a protest over word usage (while also never answering the evidence)....

I'd be interested in Duncan's opinion on whether he can see the blue scarf, brown jacket and white skirt...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 16, 2019, 09:43:49 PM
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Anyone who pretends they can't see the blue scarf, brown jacket, and white skirt in Towner isn't being honest...

Why would anybody else share your pareidolia?

All this fuss over this blurry mess:

(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/towmer4.gif)

How do you even know Darnell is anywhere near there?
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 16, 2019, 10:05:28 PM

Iacoletti is calling clearly-seen evidence pareidolia and attacking it...First of all the word pareidolia doesn't apply here...Pareidolia applies to cloud formations and rorsach illusions...The object Iacoletti is labeling pareidolia is not nearly pareidolia...It is the clearly-seen and determined image of 3 Women on the Knoll...Iacoletti is not being honest here...We can clearly see the scarf on the woman to the right is blue and we can clearly see the jacket and skirt on the woman to the left are brown and white...The woman in the middle is the same height as the woman in the middle in Zapruder and she has the same blonde hair...

It is clear Iacoletti has failed to credibly respond to the proven evidence he calls for...

I think it is time we made a judgment on him and his input...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 16, 2019, 10:24:24 PM
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Iacoletti is calling clearly-seen evidence pareidolia and attacking it...

Doyle is calling his pareidolia "clearly-seen evidence".

Quote
First of all the word pareidolia doesn't apply here...Pareidolia applies to cloud formations and rorsach illusions...

...and blurry blobs in low resolution images.

Quote
The object Iacoletti is labeling pareidolia is not nearly pareidolia...It is the clearly-seen and determined image of 3 Women on the Knoll...Iacoletti is not being honest here...We can clearly see the scarf on the woman to the right is blue and we can clearly see the jacket and skirt on the woman to the left are brown and white...

Adding the word "clearly" to an opinion doesn't turn it into a fact.  But let's say that your blobs do have a blue scarf and a brown skirt and white jacket.  So what?  Let's even say for the sake of argument that your Towner blobs are the same people in Zapruder.  You still don't know when Darnell's footage was taken.

Quote
The woman in the middle is the same height as the woman in the middle in Zapruder and she has the same blonde hair...

 BS:  As I keep reminding you, you can't compare heights in two different images without having some reference object with a known height.

Quote
It is clear Iacoletti has failed to credibly respond to the proven evidence he calls for...

It is clear that Doyle thinks repeating a claim over and over again constitutes "proven evidence".

Quote
I think it is time we made a judgment on him and his input...

What do you mean "we", Kimosabe?
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 16, 2019, 10:42:53 PM

Again - Iacoletti is happiest when he can get the thread into juvenile tit for tat replies...

Credible researchers can see he has badly failed to answer the evidence...I'm just waiting for Iacoletti to get DiEugenio's approval...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 16, 2019, 11:26:07 PM
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Again - Iacoletti is happiest when he can get the thread into juvenile tit for tat replies...

Doyle is happiest when he writes long rants with all the same claims that have been refuted hundreds of times and thinks that it gets more true with repetition.
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 16, 2019, 11:26:31 PM
Time to ignore Iacoletti...

Iacoletti is not being honest here...We can clearly see the scarf on the woman to the right is blue and we can clearly see the jacket and skirt on the woman to the left are brown and white...The woman in the middle is the same height as the woman in the middle in Zapruder and she has the same blonde hair...

It is clear Iacoletti has failed to credibly respond to the proven evidence he calls for...

I think it is time we made a judgment on him and his input...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 16, 2019, 11:30:39 PM
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Time to ignore Iacoletti...

So do it, already!

Quote
Iacoletti is not being honest here...We can clearly see the scarf on the woman to the right is blue and we can clearly see the jacket and skirt on the woman to the left are brown and white...The woman in the middle is the same height as the woman in the middle in Zapruder and she has the same blonde hair...

Repeating a claim doesn't make it more true.

Quote
I think it is time we made a judgment on him and his input...

So who's "we"? No answer?
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 17, 2019, 12:23:49 AM
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7
Why would anybody else share your pareidolia?

All this fuss over this blurry mess:

(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/towmer4.gif)

How do you even know Darnell is anywhere near there?

Iacoletti,

When you look at those three gals, can you see that 1) the one on the left has black hair and is wearing a white skirt and a brown coat, 2) the one in the middle has blondish hair and is wearing a dark-colored dress or raincoat, and 3) the one on the right is wearing a dark dress or raincoat and a light-blue headscarf?

Yes or No?

Can you see that they are on the Pergola Patio, near its front edge?

Yes or No?

Can you see that the man who's running as though he wants to interdict them has what could very well be a camera bag bouncing on the right side of his body?

Yes or No?

Or are they all just "blobs" to you?

LOL

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 17, 2019, 12:28:45 AM
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Iacoletti,

You don't need to put my name in every post.

Quote
When you look at those three gals,

How do you even know they're "gals"?

Quote
can you see that 1) the one on the left has black hair

No.

Quote
and is wearing a white skirt

Possibly.

Quote
and a brown coat,

No.

Quote
2) the one in the middle has blondish hair

No.

Quote
and is wearing dark clothing,

Possibly.

Quote
and 3) the one on the right is wearing a dark raincoat

No.

Quote
and a light-blue headscarf?

Possibly.

Quote
Can you see that they are on the Pergola Patio, near its front edge?

Yes.

Do you know when Darnell took his footage and where he was standing at the time?

Yes or No?
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 17, 2019, 12:58:29 AM
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How do you even know they're "gals"?

No.

Possibly.

No.

No.

Possibly.

No.

Possibly.

Yes.


Iacoletti,

Why the three wimpy "possiblies"?

Why so oops, sorry tentative?

Don't want to go on record as agreeing with the obvious?

For example, what's preventing you from "stipulating" that the two people on the right in that trio are wearing dark-colored dresses or raincoats?

Do you really think the clothes those two people are wearing might not be dark-colored, or that the garments they're wearing might be trousers, or ... gasp ... Bermuda shorts?

Both?

Tangential question: Do you really think that any or all of those three people could be guys?

Really?

Which ones do you think might be guys, Iacoletti?

1) The one wearing the white skirt?

2) The one with the blondish hair?

3) The one wearing the light-blue headscarf?

-- MWT   ;)

Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: James Hackerott on April 17, 2019, 01:07:48 AM
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I find it difficult to comprehend any reasoning for a thought process of denial that the PicturedImages represent StellaJacob, GloriaHolt, and SharronSimmons, especially considering available corroboration for said identities. And, I am confident that James is not implying that StellaJacobImage is 'grinning', but is attempting to express her reaction to the astonishing event she has just witnessed.

Thank you Larry. Grinning was a poor choice of wording. Perhaps grimacing is a better choice.

James
 
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 17, 2019, 01:16:03 AM
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So do it, already!


Linguistic forensic evidence of a person who knows he's not arguing seriously...

People who are honestly trying to show people correct evidence never ask to be ignored...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: James Hackerott on April 17, 2019, 03:25:22 AM
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Thanks, and just a guess, but she appears with her eye movement to be describing a head shot. And, my first view as well.
Also, the actions of her hands gave me that same opinion. I had to dig back to 2003 to find that clip.

Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 17, 2019, 04:32:36 AM
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Iacoletti,

You don?t need to put my name in every post.

Quote
Why the three wimpy "possiblies"?

Why so oops, sorry tentative?

Because an unproven conjecture is an unproven conjecture. Even if you express it confidently.

Quote
Don't want to go on record as agreeing with the obvious?

Didn?t you just say it was a mistake to call what you think you see in photographs ?obvious??

Quote
For example, what's preventing you from "stipulating" that the two people on the right in that trio are wearing dark-colored dresses or raincoats?

How did you decide that?s a ?raincoat??

Quote
Do you really think the clothes those two people are wearing might not be dark-colored, or that the garments they're wearing might be trousers, or ... gasp ... Bermuda shorts?

They might be lots of things. How is that helpful?

Quote
Tangential question: Do you really think that any or all of those three people could be guys?

How did you decide they are ?gals? ? without pre-assuming that they are the Zapruder sign people that is?

Quote
Which ones do you think might be guys, Iacoletti?

1) The one wearing the white skirt?

How do you know it?s a skirt?

Quote
2) The one with the blondish hair?

Only ?gals? have lighter-colored hair?

Quote
3) The one wearing the light-blue headscarf?

How do you know it?s a headscarf?
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 17, 2019, 04:35:41 AM
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Linguistic forensic evidence of a person who knows he's not arguing seriously...

That?s still a thing that you just made up.

Quote
People who are honestly trying to show people correct evidence never ask to be ignored...

I didn?t ask to be ignored. Just pointing out yet another Doyle lie. You?re pathological.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 17, 2019, 05:17:42 AM
Didn?t you just say it was a mistake to call what you think you see in photographs ?obvious??

Yes, Iacoletti, but obviously not really, really, really obvious things, like what I wrote above about the three gals in the Towner film. What I was referring to were things like the not-so-obvious fact that your "Glasses Woman" in Betzner-3 is wearing glasses, and the fact that two fuzzy-but-discernable horizontal bars can been seen in the skirt of your "Glasses Woman" as she's standing on a lower step in Darnell (but if and only if one correctly enlarges the proper frames from the clearest copy of Darnell one can find, and one knows where to look to find the the narrow section of her skirt in that film -- and what to ignore, as well, like the left side of another woman's face that partially obscures it, iirc, etc).

How did you decide that?s a ?raincoat??

Why do you constantly over-exaggerate or under-exaggerate, Iacolletti?  I said dresses or raincoats.  (Can you see bare lower legs?)

They might be lots of things. How is that helpful?

Like what, Iacoletti? Can you think of any plausible alternatives?

How did you decide they are ?gals? ? without pre-assuming that they are the Zapruder sign people that is?

LOL

How do you know it?s a skirt?

LOL

Only ?gals? have lighter-colored hair?

Did I imply that, Iacoletti, or did I say "blondish hair" as a label so you'd know who I was talking about?

How do you know it?s a headscarf?

Can you think of any plausible alternatives, Iacoletti?  If so, what are they?  (I'd love to hear what you've got on that score.)

.......

All-in-all, Typical Iacoletti.

Avoidance.

Deflection.

Agenda.

-- MWT  ;)

.......


Pssst, Iacoletti --

Taking into account the fact we can see the bare lower legs of those three people in the Towner clip, if you had to guess, would you say those three people are men or women?

Or is it impossible for you to discern their bare lower legs because "the images in the clip are too blurry to say anything definite about them; they're just ... blobs"?
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 17, 2019, 06:06:36 AM
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Yes, Iacoletti, but obviously not really, really, really obvious things, like what I wrote above about the three gals in the Towner film.

So if it?s ?obvious? to Tommy, then by gum it?s obvious.

Quote
Why do you constantly over-exaggerate or under-exaggerate, Iacolletti?  I said dresses or raincoats.  (Can you see bare lower legs?)

No, first you just said ?the one on the right is wearing a dark raincoat?. I guess you changed your mind?

Quote
Like what, Iacoletti? Can you think of any plausible alternatives?

You said it yourself. Shorts is one alternative. Trousers with light colored boots? Who knows?

Quote
Did I imply that, Iacoletti, or did I say "blondish hair" as a label so you'd know who I was talking about?

Well, it was in a list of things that were reasons you called them ?gals?.

Quote
Can you think of any plausible alternatives, Iacoletti?  If so, what are they?  (I'd love to hear what you've got on that score.)

Hat? Ski mask? Hijab?

Quote
Taking into account the fact we can see the bare lower legs of those three people in the Towner clip, if you had to guess, would you say those three people are men or women?

Wait a minute...are we talking about guesses here or things that are ?obvious? (or as Doyle likes to say ?perfect forensic matches?)?

Quote
Or is it impossible for you to discern their bare lower legs because "the images in the clip are too blurry to say anything definite about them; they're just blobs"?

You got it!
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 17, 2019, 07:03:16 AM
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So if it?s ?obvious? to Tommy, then by gum it?s obvious.

No, first you just said ?the one on the right is wearing a dark raincoat?. I guess you changed your mind?

You said it yourself. Shorts is one alternative. Trousers with light colored boots? Who knows?

Well, it was in a list of things that were reasons you called them ?gals?.

Hat? Ski mask? Hijab?

Wait a minute...are we talking about guesses here or things that are ?obvious? (or as Doyle likes to say ?perfect forensic matches?)?

You got it!

Iacoletti,

In case you missed it, I said "plausible alternatives".

-- MWT    ;)

Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 17, 2019, 08:00:52 AM
You shouldn't encourage him Thomas...

We can ignore Iacoletti because the 3 Women are obviously Jacob, Holt, and Simmons...And they are obviously the same 3 Women in Zapruder...

We are playing his naysaying game by answering him...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 17, 2019, 01:44:29 PM
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Iacoletti,

You don?t need to put my name in every post.

Quote
In case you missed it, I said "plausible alternatives".

And you?re the arbiter of plausibility?  :D

One thing that seems to have escaped your notice is that the women in the Darnell footage are only seen from the chest up. So what do the alleged bare legs in Towner have to do with anything?
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 17, 2019, 01:47:13 PM
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You shouldn't encourage him Thomas...

We can ignore Iacoletti because the 3 Women are obviously Jacob, Holt, and Simmons...And they are obviously the same 3 Women in Zapruder...

We are playing his naysaying game by answering him...

Yes, you should do what Doyle says, because he?s doing such a great job ignoring me.

In Doyle-land all you have to do is say the something is ?obvious?, and ta-da, it becomes a fact.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 17, 2019, 05:38:05 PM
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You shouldn't encourage him Thomas...

We can ignore Iacoletti because the 3 Women are obviously Jacob, Holt, and Simmons...And they are obviously the same 3 Women in Zapruder...

We are playing his naysaying game by answering him...

Brian,

Anyone who believes the gals in the Tina Towner Trio could actually be guys wearing Bermuda shorts or flesh-colored boots has got to be on some kind of weirdo, agenda-driven "mission".

-- MWT   ;)
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 17, 2019, 05:45:12 PM

We need Unger back for support...

Robin!...Robin!...Please come back!...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 17, 2019, 07:27:31 PM
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Anyone who believes the gals in the Tina Towner Trio could actually be guys wearing Bermuda shorts or flesh-colored boots has got to be on some kind of weirdo, agenda-driven "mission".

Since it's all assumptions made from squinting at a blurry, enlarged video, and no other evidence, any assumption about their apparel is no more or less weird than any other.  Your assumptions aren't automatically more plausible just because you made them.
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 17, 2019, 08:00:37 PM
It is my opinion that anyone who can't see they are women is either not competent enough to participate or not being honest...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 17, 2019, 08:01:23 PM
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Since it's all assumptions made from squinting at a blurry, enlarged video, and no other evidence, any assumption about their apparel is no more or less weird than any other.  Your assumptions aren't automatically more plausible just because you made them.

Iacoletti,

You're a L-I-A-R if you say you can't see the bare lower legs of those three gals in Towner.

Synonyms: Prevaricator, Teller Of Non-Truths.

-- MWT  ;)

PS  Do you actually enjoy making a fool of yourself "in public" like this?

LOL
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 17, 2019, 09:43:38 PM
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Iacoletti,

You're a L-I-A-R if you say you can't see the bare lower legs of those three gals in Towner.

Synonyms: Prevaricator, Teller Of Non-Truths.

-- MWT  ;)

PS  Do you actually enjoy making a fool of yourself "in public" like this?

LOL

Do you actually think that these insults make your argument any better?

LOL
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 17, 2019, 09:50:17 PM
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It is my opinion that anyone who can't see they are women is either not competent enough to participate or not being honest...

It is my opinion that it doesn't require any competence to make an unsubstantiated assumption -- just a vivid imagination.

As for being honest....

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1749.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1749.0.html)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 18, 2019, 12:40:50 AM
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Do you actually think that these insults make your argument any better?

LOL

Iacoletti,

My argument regarding the three gals' in Towner being, from left to right, Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt, and Sharon Simmons doesn't need to be any better. Either you are sufficiently open-minded (and have something less-than-blindness visual acuity) to be able to "see" it, or you aren't.

I'm convinced that you, short of my providing you with DNA samples and notarized statements, never will, and that you will continue to hold back and confuse "newbies" as well as more seasoned students regarding the true identities of Westbrook's from-behind-and-54-years-after-the-fact "Probably Carol Reed, Definitely Gloria Calvery, and Definitely Me, Karen Westbrook!" in the Z-film (and, concomitantly, in a from-the-front, but in-the-distance, photographic image).

Factoid: Westbrook was so confused with smiling-and-nodding Fagin in 2017 that she thought both of her colleagues by the name of "Carol" had watched the motorcade with her.

Factoid:  It's interesting that Fagin mentioned that Calvery's own son disagreed with Westbrook about her woebegone "identification" of his mother in the Z-film (probably because he'd correctly spotted her in Betzner-3 and realized that she couldn't simultaneously be in the clutch of women down "by" the Stemmons Sign in that photo).

LOL

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 18, 2019, 05:16:01 AM
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Iacoletti,

You don?t need to put my name in every post.

Quote
My argument regarding the three gals' in Towner being, from left to right, Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt, and Sharon Simmons doesn't need to be any better.

Yes it does. The idea that you can get identities out of that indistinct mess is absurd.

Quote
Either you are sufficiently open-minded (and have something less-than-blindness visual acuity) to be able to "see" it, or you aren't.

Open-mindedness has nothing to do with it. You can either prove who they are (without just assuming they are the same people in black & white footage taken by somebody else) or you can?t. Appealing to ?visual acuity? is just a cop out.

Quote
I'm convinced that you, short of my providing you with DNA samples and notarized statements, never will,

Why should anyone just accept your handwaving ?looks like them to me? argument? Because you have nothing better?

Quote
and that you will continue to hold back and confuse "newbies" as well as more seasoned students regarding the true identities of Westbrook's from-behind-and-54-years-after-the-fact "Probably Carol Reed, Definitely Gloria Calvery, and Definitely Me, Karen Westbrook!" in the Z-film (and, concomitantly, in a from-the-front, but in-the-distance, photographic image).

Says the guy who thinks Towner is conclusive?  :D

Quote
Factoid: Westbrook was so confused with smiling-and-nodding Fagin in 2017 that she thought both of her colleagues by the name of "Carol" had watched the motorcade with her.

And you think you know differently? Which one of you was there?

Quote
Factoid:  It's interesting that Fagin mentioned that Calvery's own son disagreed with Westbrook about her woebegone "identification" of his mother in the Z-film (probably because he'd correctly spotted her in Betzner-3 and realized that she couldn't simultaneously be in the clutch of women down "by" the Stemmons Sign in that photo).

You mean the son who was born in 1977?
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 18, 2019, 05:26:17 AM
You mean the son who was born in 1977?

Iacoletti (your name has such a nice "ring" to it),

You're full of ca-ca, dude, and you're stinkin' the place up.

Take, for example, your last "point".

When you were ... uh ... growing up (LOL!), didn't you ever see any photographs of your mother when she was in her late teens or early twenties?

What, they didn't let you see them?

-- MWT  ;)



Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 18, 2019, 02:22:14 PM
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Iacoletti (your name has such a nice "ring" to it),

Thanks, but you don?t need to put my name in every post.

Quote
You're full of ca-ca, dude, and you're stinkin' the place up.

Another solid evidence-based argument from the mud wrassler.

Quote
When you were ... uh ... growing up (LOL!), didn't you ever see any photographs of your mother when she was in her late teens or early twenties?

As a matter of fact, an old friend of my mom?s once sent me an old group photo ? blurry and taken at a distance ? and he said that one of the figures in the photo was my mom. Although I took his word for it (because he was there and he knew her at that time), if a narcissist stranger who had never known ( or even seen) my mom had shown me the same picture and asked if that figure is my mom, all I could say would be, ?I don?t know. It looks like her from a height/profile standpoint?. No way would that constitute a ?confirmation?.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on April 18, 2019, 04:00:54 PM
Thank you so much for this Darnell clip I?ve never seen before! Where did you find it? Great to see Gloria Holt, Ms Jacob and Nelson.
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 18, 2019, 04:08:18 PM
Iacoletti is the only one who doubts this correct identification of the 3 Women...Iacoletti is not credible and is just here to cause trouble...He is welcomed at Moricet's website and I am banned...Banning means I am cut-off from information I have previously used to make break-through discoveries...It is an intellectual offense the banners do not account for...

Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 18, 2019, 04:10:52 PM
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You're full of ca-ca, dude, and you're stinkin' the place up.


Thank you...He would be banned from most sites for his Skeptoid naysaying...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 18, 2019, 04:57:31 PM
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Iacoletti is the only one who doubts this correct identification of the 3 Women...

Why do you even lie about things that are easily checked?  The Facebook poll is currently 6-3 against.

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/facebook-Poll:png)

Quote
Iacoletti is not credible and is just here to cause trouble...

Doyle is not credible and is just here to lie about the evidence.

Quote
He is welcomed at Moricet's website and I am banned...Banning means I am cut-off from information I have previously used to make break-through discoveries...It is an intellectual offense the banners do not account for...

Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

P.S. His damn name is Morissette.  You can't even get that right.  What a researcher.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on April 18, 2019, 05:15:08 PM
It is Deputy Sheriff Lummie Lewis in the background.

https://imgur.com/a/KFBary KampSer

Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 18, 2019, 05:23:57 PM
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It is Deputy Sheriff Lummie Lewis in the background.

https://imgur.com/a/KFBary KampSer

Don't tell Tom Graves.  He'll insist that the "fedora" proves that it's Ernest Brandt.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on April 18, 2019, 05:42:28 PM
Jim, I added your clip to my compilation:
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 18, 2019, 05:51:09 PM
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Thank you so much for this Darnell clip I?ve never seen before! Where did you find it? Great to see Gloria Holt, Ms Jacob and Nelson.

Denis/Dennis,

Thank you for "weighing in" on this.

It should be obvious to anyone with an open mind and reasonably good eyesight that those three people in the Towner film are women, that one of them is wearing a light blue headscarf and a dark-colored dress or raincoat, that another one has blondish-colored hair, and the third one is wearing a "white" skirt and a brown jacket and has a head full of black hair.

Just like the trio in Zapruder, standing "by" the Stemmons Sign.

What are the odds that there were two groups of gals who looked that way in Dealey Plaza between 12:30 and, say, 12:45 that afternoon?

Answer: "Slim and none."

-- MWT   ;)
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 18, 2019, 06:10:11 PM
It is less than honest of Moricet to ignore that he has no problem with Iacoletti who is childishly denying what everyone knows to be true...A flagrant denier is a preferred member at his website and I am banned...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 18, 2019, 06:25:09 PM
Denis gave you multiple chances to behave like a decent human being.  But that's beyond your skill level.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on April 18, 2019, 06:29:04 PM
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Denis gave you multiple chances to behave like a decent human being.  But that's beyond your skill level.

Well said. If he becomes a new man, a new person, I may remove the ban. I hope he gets all the help he needs.
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 18, 2019, 06:33:23 PM
No...Denis decided not to judge input, method, motive, or credibility and took the easy way out by accenting manners - despite the outrageous travesty of defending The Lithping Larry Grayson "Oooh Shut That Door" doppleganger fans and their obvious evasions of evidence...He decided to ignore your pranking and kill the messenger while not accounting for having a majority of The Lithping Larry Grayson "Oooh Shut That Door" doppleganger nuts as members or their negative effect on his site...And he went out and got crass Lone Nutter Jim Hess to do that head-chopping no matter how many times he denies it...It is the record...

That's why he doesn't answer Iacoletti...Anyone who keeps you and bans me is a fool...They don't account for how it rewards your obvious pranking...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 18, 2019, 06:33:57 PM
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Well said. If he becomes a new man, a new person, I may remove the ban.

Yeah, that would last about 3 minutes...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on April 18, 2019, 06:36:50 PM
He might apologize to me someday.
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 18, 2019, 06:48:11 PM
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Well said. If he becomes a new man, a new person, I may remove the ban. I hope he gets all the help he needs.


Most sensible persons would see that anyone who sides with Iacoletti has said more than I can ever write...Thank you...

What Moricet doesn't account for here is that I was banned for calling Iacoletti and Ford L-I-A-R-S and refusing to back down from that correct accusation...As long as Moricet refuses to honestly answer that Iacoletti is not offering serious, valid material and is openly denying that the 3 Women are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob then he is only proving my point for me and is showing the public he seriously lacks in judgment...It appears that Moricet has no sense what so ever that he has banned the person who is arguably the best researcher on the JFK internet who single-handedly proved the Prayer Man issue, and done it in favor of what can arguably be said to be the biggest pranker of any poster on these boards...If Moricet had more sense he would realize the problem was Iacoletti and Ford's jamming his board with their disruptive input and that he rewarded the violators and punished the victim...

It is pretty clear that some people will listen to any flickering tongue when someone confronts them on their errors...Asking someone to get help in front of serious matters of evidence connotes a less than credible intellectual approach so we are all saying the same thing...Some just don't realize it...

Iacoletti and Ford are deliberate non-truth tellers so I guess it's the company you keep...Moderation does not give one the right to deny truth...Or blame people for forcing truth...
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 18, 2019, 06:53:40 PM
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Denis gave you multiple chances to behave like a decent human being.  But that's beyond your skill level.


If I were Denis I would tell you to stop brown-nosing and to account for your credulous denial of Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...It would go a lot further...It would improve the quality of his site...

Denis will prove his credibility by confronting Iacoletti on his nutty denial of Denis's identification of Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...And he'll tell Iacoletti to stop trying to cuddle up to him and answer...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 18, 2019, 07:10:41 PM
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If I were Denis I would tell you to stop brown-nosing and to account for your credulous denial of Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...It would go a lot further...It would improve the quality of his site...

You know what improved the quality of his group considerably?  Kicking you out.  That has improved the quality of every other JFK forum on the Internet as well.  It will someday improve the quality of this forum again too.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 18, 2019, 08:49:24 PM
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If I were Denis I would tell you to stop brown-nosing and to account for your credulous denial of Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...It would go a lot further...It would improve the quality of his site...

Denis will prove his credibility by confronting Iacoletti on his nutty denial of Denis's identification of Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...And he'll tell Iacoletti to stop trying to cuddle up to me and answer...

Brian,

His incredulous and implausible denial, actually.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: James Hackerott on April 18, 2019, 10:01:52 PM
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Thank you so much for this Darnell clip I?ve never seen before! Where did you find it? Great to see Gloria Holt, Ms Jacob and Nelson.
Denis, thank you for your reply. After two or three campaigns to locate that clip I finally found it this week on a video CD (320x240 and highly compressed). The source was a MSNBC special around the 40th anniversary, and titled ?The Day That Changed America?. Beware-there are several specials over the years with similar titles. I think it was re-broadcast at a later date as ?Celebrities Remember?.
James

Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: James Hackerott on April 18, 2019, 10:06:11 PM
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Jim, I added your clip to my compilation:
That looks good Denis. I appreciate your making the compilation. Ms. Sitzman looks nicely placed too now  Thumb1: 
James
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on April 19, 2019, 01:14:33 AM
James, I found this. Do you have the full show on CD?

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3341739/ns/msnbc-jfk_the_day_that_changed_america/t/jfk-day-changed-america/#.XLkSwDBary KampjIU
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: James Hackerott on April 19, 2019, 02:40:24 AM
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James, I found this. Do you have the full show on CD?

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3341739/ns/msnbc-jfk_the_day_that_changed_america/t/jfk-day-changed-america/#.XLkSwDBary KampjIU

Yes, that is the same show and yes all is on the CD. Even Judge Judy is there too along with commercials. There are not any ending credits and I don't know if they were even broadcast with the show or the recording stopped early. I wonder if that scene is included the copy the Sixth Floor has for viewing. I want to see that copy...maybe this year.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 19, 2019, 06:09:15 PM
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That looks good Denis. I appreciate your making the compilation. Ms. Sitzman looks nicely placed too now  Thumb1: 
James

It's funny how Iacoletti's "Gloria Calvery" in Darnell doesn't look anything like Gloria Calvery, but does look like a different Gloria -- Gloria Holt.

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on April 19, 2019, 06:12:24 PM
By looking at the Darnell girl, Steve of the 6FM would tell you she is not Westbrook.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 19, 2019, 07:46:08 PM
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By looking at the Darnell girl, Steve of the 6FM would tell you she is not Westbrook.

Steve?

Steve who?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on April 19, 2019, 07:52:49 PM
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Steve?

Steve who?

-- MWT   ;)

Stephen Fagin who interviewed Karen.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 19, 2019, 08:34:44 PM
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Stephen Fagin who interviewed Karen.

Has he told you that?
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on April 19, 2019, 09:29:47 PM
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Has he told you that?

Yes, he did. He says the Darnell frame shows she has bangs but Karen in the color 1963 photos does not, a fact that nobody can deny. I mean nobody credible.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 20, 2019, 01:28:21 AM
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Yes, he did. He says the Darnell frame shows she has bangs but Karen in the color 1963 photos does not, a fact that nobody can deny. I mean nobody credible.

Very interesting.

Nice "catch" on his part.

Thanks for the feedback, Denis.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on April 20, 2019, 03:47:33 AM
Sharon Simmons did have bangs a few years prior...
http://imgur.com/a/26u6ThN
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on April 20, 2019, 03:50:05 AM
I added some bangs to Sharon.
http://imgur.com/a/WlkxxT2
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on April 20, 2019, 04:02:26 AM
I flipped the Darnell frame horizontally. The left is right and the right is left.
https://imgur.com/a/vMO2T8t
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 20, 2019, 05:32:50 AM
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It's funny how Iacoletti's "Gloria Calvery" in Darnell doesn't look anything like Gloria Calvery, but does look like a different Gloria -- Gloria Holt.

Iacoletti never claimed that anyone in Darnell is Calvery.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 20, 2019, 05:40:14 AM
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Sharon Simmons did have bangs a few years prior...
http://imgur.com/a/26u6ThN

Denis, I don?t believe that?s the right Sharon Simmons. The one I found fits her age better.

Adamson High, 1962

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/sharon-simmons-adamson-high-1962.png)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on April 20, 2019, 05:45:17 AM
Close match. I had forgotten about that one.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on April 21, 2019, 03:22:57 AM
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Why would anybody else share your pareidolia?

All this fuss over this blurry mess:

(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/towmer4.gif)

How do you even know Darnell is anywhere near there?
Darnell running in Dealey Plaza on a different day. Generally looks the same.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 21, 2019, 11:27:33 PM
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Darnell running in Dealey Plaza on a different day. Generally looks the same.

Thanks, Denis.

I wonder if Darnell filmed Iacoletti's "Three Men Wearing Flesh-Colored, Thigh-High Boots" leaving the Pergola Patio (and then walking across the grass) with the same camera?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 21, 2019, 11:36:59 PM
I wonder if Tommy is ever going to make a valid argument. About anything.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 22, 2019, 01:22:58 AM
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I wonder if Tommy is ever going to make a valid argument. About anything.

Iacoletti,

Or was it one woman wearing a white skirt with a brown jacket, and two men wearing boardshorts?

Impossible to say?  So much onanism on full-moon nights in the garden that all you can see now are "blobs"?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 22, 2019, 06:44:29 PM
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Iacoletti,

Or was it one woman wearing a white skirt with a brown jacket, and two men wearing boardshorts?

-- MWT   ;)

Okay, how about one man wearing white boardshorts and two men wearing dark ones?
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on April 22, 2019, 08:25:26 PM
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Darnell running in Dealey Plaza on a different day. Generally looks the same.

    I believe we need to keep the time frame of the above images in mind when naming the suited man running across the Knoll as Darnell. Darnell took a while to cross Elm St to its' (N) side. He then at some point traveled well behind the Pergola to film the railroad cars area and the Throng of people that were Already situated back there, and traveling back and forth up/down The Steps. Plus, there was already a heavy contingent of law enforcement back behind the Pergola at this point in time. When you consider some of these enforcement officers were initially examining the man hole cover on the South side of Elm and then Eventually went across Elm and Then focused their attention on the railroad car area behind the Pergola = a serious amount of time passing for Darnell to possibly film all of this and then be sprinting across the Knoll. Sitzman is a good person to use as a rough time stamp for this footage. Sitzman is also photographed in front of the TSBD shortly after the assassination. If that is Darnell running across the Knoll in the footage above, then I believe the photos of Sitzman in front of the TSBD would have to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 hour or more after the assassination. I do not believe those photos of Sitzman are close to that long after the assassination. Therefore, I do Not believe we are seeing Darnell in the footage above running across the Knoll. The cavalierly accepted time stamping of film and still images of the JFK Assassination continues to hinder this investigation.     
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on April 22, 2019, 08:32:29 PM
I specified in the caption that this clip is of a different day.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 22, 2019, 08:38:53 PM
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I specified in the caption that this clip is of a different day.

Denis,

I don't think he's referring to that clip.

He's talking about people and events photographed or filmed right after the assassination.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on April 22, 2019, 08:40:57 PM
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Denis,

I don't think he's referring to that clip.

He's talking about people and events photographed or filmed right after the assassination.

-- MWT   ;)

Thanks.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on April 22, 2019, 08:42:54 PM
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I specified in the caption that this clip is of a different day.

    Yeah Denis I understood that. I am referring to the B/W footage showing a man in a suit running across the Knoll. If that is Sitzman in the background, then I do Not believe that suited running man is Darnell. Darnell did not have the time to travel/film all the stuff behind the Pergola and get into the position of this suited running man. I believe Sitzman still being beside the Pedestal eliminates Darnell as being this guy. When Sitzman was interviewed by Tink Thompson for "Six Seconds In Dallas", she told Thompson that she conversed with a credentialed G-Man at the top of the Knoll. This suited man we are seeing running across the Knoll could very easily be the G-Man that Sitzman told Thompson she spoke with. 
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 22, 2019, 11:09:06 PM
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    Yeah Denis I understood that. I am referring to the B/W footage showing a man in a suit running across the Knoll. If that is Sitzman in the background, then I do Not believe that suited running man is Darnell. Darnell did not have the time to travel/film all the stuff behind the Pergola and get into the position of this suited running man. I believe Sitzman still being beside the Pedestal eliminates Darnell as being this guy. When Sitzman was interviewed by Tink Thompson for "Six Seconds In Dallas", she told Thompson that she conversed with a credentialed G-Man at the top of the Knoll. This suited man we are seeing running across the Knoll could very easily be the G-Man that Sitzman told Thompson she spoke with.

Royell,

Wonderful analysis.

Who, then, with something big and white in his right coat pocket do you figure filmed Jacob, Holt and Simmons as they stepped onto the grass from the Pergola Patio (and then as they were walking across the grass in the direction of the TSBD) a "few" minutes after the assassination?

-- MWT   ;)

PS  Something I just thought of:  What did Lummie Lewis do after he spoke with those three gals?

Can you photographically time-stamp his movements?

Is Lummie visible in the Tina Towner clip?

Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on April 23, 2019, 12:04:56 AM
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Royell,

Wonderful analysis.

Who, then, with something big and white in his right coat pocket do you figure filmed Jacob, Holt and Simmons as they stepped onto the grass from the Pergola Patio (and then as they were walking across the grass in the direction of the TSBD) a "few" minutes after the assassination?

-- MWT   ;)

PS  Something I just thought of:  What did Lummie Lewis do after he spoke with those three gals?

Can you photographically time-stamp his movements?

Is Lummie visible in the Tina Towner clip?

    I do Not know who may have shot that footage based on it Currently being time stamped as happening just a Few minutes after the assassination. Based on the protracted journey Darnell took, and the crowds of people he filmed that were Already milling around Behind the Pergola, in addition to his also filming law enforcement Already being back there, (notably Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig who initially examined the man hole cover area on the South side of Elm), = No Way the time stamping of the footage being "A few minutes" matches up with having been done by Darnell. Sitzman being captured on the footage also would DQ Darnell having filmed her only a Few Minutes after the assassination. 
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 23, 2019, 12:09:40 AM
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    I do Not know who may have shot that footage based on it Currently being time stamped as happening just a Few minutes after the assassination. Based on the protracted journey Darnell took, and the crowds of people he filmed that were Already milling around Behind the Pergola, in addition to his also filming law enforcement Already being back there, (notably Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig who initially examined the man hole cover area on the South side of Elm), = No Way the time stamping of the footage being "A few minutes" matches up with having been done by Darnell. Sitzman being captured on the footage also would DQ Darnell having filmed her only a Few Minutes after the assassination.

No idea, huh?

-- MWT   ;)

PS 

1) Are you absolutely sure that all of your approximations are correct?

2) Do you seriously doubt that those three gals are, from left to right, Jacob, Holt and Simmons?


Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on April 23, 2019, 12:59:36 AM
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No idea, huh?

-- MWT   ;)

PS 

1) Are you absolutely sure that all of your approximations are correct?

2) Do you seriously doubt that those three gals are, from left to right, Jacob, Holt and Simmons?

    (1) Well, for the moment, let's just focus on Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig. How long after the Kill Shot do You think it would take Craig to: (1) Arrive at the Man Hole Cover area on the (S) side of Elm ST, (2) Examine that Man Hole Cover Area, and (3) cross Elm St and walk back to the railroad car area well behind the Pergola where he is allegedly filmed by Darnell?  That Darnell footage clearly reveals the railroad car area to already be a beehive of activity at that point in time.

    (2) I believe the on-going squabbling regarding the ID of those 3 women is non-productive.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 23, 2019, 01:09:58 AM
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    (1) Well, for the moment, let's just focus on Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig. How long after the Kill Shot do You think it would take Craig to: (1) Arrive at the Man Hole Cover area on the (S) side of Elm ST, (2) Examine that Man Hole Cover Area, and (3) cross Elm St and walk back to the railroad car area well behind the Pergola where he is allegedly filmed by Darnell?  That Darnell footage clearly reveals the railroad car area to already be a beehive of activity at that point in time.

    (2) I believe the on-going squabbling regarding the ID of those 3 women is non-productive.

Royell,

You don't think the correct identification of Gloria Calvery (i.e., not Westbrook's "Calvert" (sic)) in Zapruder -- and on the TSBD steps in Darnell -- has a bearing on Shelly's and Lovelady's and Vicki Adams' and Lee Harvey Oswald's actions after the assassination, and their respective statements about same?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on April 23, 2019, 02:10:21 AM
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Royell,

You don't think the correct identification of Gloria Calvery (i.e., not Westbrook's "Calvert" (sic)) in Zapruder and on the TSBD steps in Darnell has a bearing on Shelly's and Lovelady's and Vicki Adams' and Lee Harvey Oswald's actions after the assassination, and their respective statements about same?

-- MWT   ;)

      Conflicting eyewitness statements can be debated until the cows come home. To this day we remain unsure as to what Darnell actually did and did not film. Correctly time stamping assassination images is invaluable.  For close to 40 years it was falsely believed that the Wiegman Film was shot continuously and the timelines of other assassination images were accordingly assigned. The inaccurate JFK assassination image time lines that were merely rubber stamped by the Old Guard JFK Research Community continue to dog this case.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 23, 2019, 02:20:55 AM
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      Conflicting eyewitness statements can be debated until the cows come home. To this day we remain unsure as to what Darnell actually did and did not film. Correctly time stamping assassination images is invaluable.  For close to 40 years it was falsely believed that the Wiegman Film was shot continuously and the timelines of other assassination images were accordingly assigned. The inaccurate JFK assassination image time lines that were merely rubber stamped by the Old Guard JFK Research Community continue to dog this case.

Royell,

What makes you think your approximations are particularly accurate?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 23, 2019, 06:50:55 AM
For possible "timestamping" purposes, what's the guy in the foreground holding at the end of the Towner GIF?  An umbrella?

-- MWT   ;)

Edit:  Upon further review, it looks as though it could be a scratch in the film.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1303.0.html

Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 23, 2019, 07:57:41 AM
Royell,

How many minutes between the fatal headshot and Darnell's filming of Sitzman smoking a cigarette and talking to that man do you figure Darnell would have needed to do all of the things he did?

-- MWT   ;)

Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 23, 2019, 03:20:48 PM
deleted by MWT
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Larry Trotter on April 23, 2019, 10:02:59 PM
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Dear "Battles" Royell,

The more thought I give your "analysis," the more I realize just how full of beans you are.

Given the circumstances, it's easy to understand that James Darnell did not take his own sweet time to go where he went, and to film the things he filmed.

Not only that, but you've probably misidentified Sitzman in at least one image (where is she in the Dorman film, btw?).

You do agree that Darnell filmed Sitzman as she was smoking a cigarette and talking to that man, don't you?

Bottom line: That's James Darnell running across the grass towards Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt, and Sharon Simmons on the Pergola Patio (getting ready to step down onto the grass) in the Towner film, the same three gals who were filmed from behind "by" the Stemmons Sign by Zapruder, and photographed from the front by Betzner in Betzner-3.

Get over it and live to battle another day.

-- MWT  ;)

Mr Graves;

Remembering that the DallasCountySheriff's Office Building being located on Main St at Houston St, places it just across the street from DealeyPlaza, and with DCS Deputies standing on the corner of Main at Houston allowed for quick area access for them to the scene.

I believe that MarilynSitzmanImage is pictured being interviewed
  by DCS Deputy John"Bill"WisemanImage.

And, I believe that StellaJacob, GloriaHolt, and SharronSimmons had been, or were, interviewed by DCS Deputy CL"Lummie"Lewis soon after the shootings of JFK Sr and JBC Jr.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/lewis_cl.htm
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 23, 2019, 10:45:24 PM
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Mr Graves;

Remembering that the DallasCountySheriff's Office Building being located on Main St at Houston St, places it just across the street from DealeyPlaza, and with DCS Deputies standing on the corner of Main at Houston allowed for quick area access for them to the scene.

I believe that MarilynSitzmanImage is pictured being interviewed
  by DCS Deputy John"Bill"WisemanImage.

And, I believe that StellaJacob, GloriaHolt, and SharronSimmons had been, or were, interviewed by DCS Deputy CL"Lummie"Lewis soon after the shootings of JFK Sr and JBC Jr.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/lewis_cl.htm

Thanks Larry.

Yes, Deputy Sheriff John Wiseman.

In his 11/23 report he said Sitzman told him (near the pedestal?) that Zapruder had captured the assassination on film, and he said that both "a man lying on the ground" (Bill Newman?) and Sitzman told him the shots had come from the TSBD, and that when Sitzman told him this, he ran "at once" to the TSBD and entered it.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/wiseman.htm

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on April 23, 2019, 10:49:36 PM
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Mr Graves;

Remembering that the DallasCountySheriff's Office Building being located on Main St at Houston St, places it just across the street from DealeyPlaza, and with DCS Deputies standing on the corner of Main at Houston allowed for quick area access for them to the scene.

I believe that MarilynSitzmanImage is pictured being interviewed
  by DCS Deputy John"Bill"WisemanImage.

And, I believe that StellaJacob, GloriaHolt, and SharronSimmons had been, or were, interviewed by DCS Deputy CL"Lummie"Lewis soon after the shootings of JFK Sr and JBC Jr.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/lewis_cl.htm

    Mmmm. Specifically what attracted mass numbers of law enforcement standing on the corner of Houston/Main to the railroad car area well behind Zapruder/The Pergola?  How does this same area somehow become "The Scene" as you call it? 
    Regarding Darnell, it took him an extended amount of time to progress down Elm St . The recently discovered Darnell film snippet shows both Press Buses on Houston St well Behind Darnell.  From the (S) side of Elm St, Darnell allegedly filmed the lead Press Buss going under the Triple Underpass. We know this portion of the JFK Motorcade came to an absolute Dead Stop immediately following the Kill Shot.  How is it the Lead Press Bus after sitting at a Dead Stop somehow managed to PASS Darnell on Elm St? Darnell on foot & unimpeded progressed down Elm St at an extremely slow pace. Darnell's "snails pace" needs to be considered when time stamping the alleged footage he captured of the railroad car/Pergola area. 
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 23, 2019, 11:11:48 PM
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    Mmmm. Specifically what attracted mass numbers of law enforcement standing on the corner of Houston/Main to the railroad car area well behind Zapruder/The Pergola?  How does this same area somehow become "The Scene" as you call it? 
    Regarding Darnell, it took him an extended amount of time to progress down Elm St . The recently discovered Darnell film snippet shows both Press Buses on Houston St well Behind Darnell.  From the (S) side of Elm St, Darnell allegedly filmed the lead Press Buss going under the Triple Underpass. We know this portion of the JFK Motorcade came to an absolute Dead Stop immediately following the Kill Shot.  How is it the Lead Press Bus after sitting at a Dead Stop somehow managed to PASS Darnell on Elm St? Darnell on foot & unimpeded progressed down Elm St at an extremely slow pace. Darnell's "snails pace" needs to be considered when time stamping the alleged footage he captured of the railroad car/Pergola area.

Battles,

Point being?

That James Darnell was wrongly credited with filming Jacob, Holt, and Simmons as they stepped down from something (the Pergola Patio?), and as they were walking across the grass towards the TSBD?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Larry Trotter on April 23, 2019, 11:44:23 PM
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Mr Graves;

Remembering that the DallasCountySheriff's Office Building being located on Main St at Houston St, places it just across the street from DealeyPlaza, and with DCS Deputies standing on the corner of Main at Houston allowed for quick area access for them to the scene.

I believe that MarilynSitzmanImage is pictured being interviewed
  by DCS Deputy John"Bill"WisemanImage.

And, I believe that StellaJacob, GloriaHolt, and SharronSimmons had been, or were, interviewed by DCS Deputy CL"Lummie"Lewis soon after the shootings of JFK Sr and JBC Jr.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/lewis_cl.htm

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Thanks Larry.

Yes, Deputy Sheriff John Wiseman.

In his 11/23 report he said Sitzman told him (near the pedestal?) that Zapruder had captured the assassination on film, and he said that both "a man lying on the ground" (Bill Newman?) and Sitzman told him the shots had come from the TSBD, and that when Sitzman told him this, he ran "at once" to the TSBD and entered it.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/wiseman.htm

-- MWT   ;)


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    Mmmm. Specifically what attracted mass numbers of law enforcement standing on the corner of Houston/Main to the railroad car area well behind Zapruder/The Pergola?  How does this same area somehow become "The Scene" as you call it? 
    Regarding Darnell, it took him an extended amount of time to progress down Elm St . The recently discovered Darnell film snippet shows both Press Buses on Houston St well Behind Darnell.  From the (S) side of Elm St, Darnell allegedly filmed the lead Press Buss going under the Triple Underpass. We know this portion of the JFK Motorcade came to an absolute Dead Stop immediately following the Kill Shot.  How is it the Lead Press Bus after sitting at a Dead Stop somehow managed to PASS Darnell on Elm St? Darnell on foot & unimpeded progressed down Elm St at an extremely slow pace. Darnell's "snails pace" needs to be considered when time stamping the alleged footage he captured of the railroad car/Pergola area. 

For one thing, to me the two mentioned Deputies does not mean "mass numbers of law enforcement standing on the corner of Main/Houston" being "attracted to the railroad car area well behind Zapruder/The Pergola", as your question asks. What "same area somehow becomes" what "The Scene as I call it"? Your timing statements need a little more corroboration, and try to remember, "Motorcades" tend to move along much faster than "Parades", and pedestrians. And, the first thing I recall noticing about DealeyPlaza was the 'smallness' in person compared to film and photos.

Maybe you failed to notice, Mr Storing, but my post, and Mr Graves post, both provided corroboration for what we both posted.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 24, 2019, 02:19:35 AM
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Why would anybody else share your pareidolia?

All this fuss over this blurry mess:

(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/towmer4.gif)

How do you even know Darnell is anywhere near there?

To whom it may concern --

Darnell is probably turning/swiveling/switching lenses on his 16mm "news" camera while he's running.

-- MWT   ;)


Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 24, 2019, 02:50:04 AM

... Which, if true (i.e., he's getting his camera set up to take some relatively close-up shots of Jacob, Holt and Simmons), may be a clue that he had just come from the parking lot, or some other place where he used a "farther away" lens, not the close-up Sitzman-Wiseman scene.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 24, 2019, 02:56:29 AM

Which becomes the question:

Would he have used the same focal-length lens to film the Sitzman-Wiseman scene and the Jacob-Holt-Simmons scene?

My theory, above, is based on the assumption that he would have used the same focal-length lens for both scenes.

If I'm right, then it could very well be that he filmed the Sitzman-Wiseman clip before the parking lot clip, and the J-H-S clips after the parking lot clip.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: James Hackerott on April 24, 2019, 05:11:50 AM
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To whom it may concern --

Darnell is probably turning/swiveling/switching lenses on his 16mm "news" camera while he's running.

-- MWT   ;)
Thomas,
I showed in another thread that Darnell used the same lens for both Sitzman and the three women. I think it is more likely he was winding the spring as he was chugging along, imo. ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 24, 2019, 07:19:40 AM
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Thomas,
I showed in another thread that Darnell used the same lens for both Sitzman and the three women. I think it is more likely he was winding the spring as he was chugging along, imo. ;)

James,

1) Just curious -- How did you go about showing that?

2) If Darnell was changing lenses in Towner, could said action while running, and at a distance look similar to windin' 'er up?

3) Do you think the "clips" in Denis' recent youtube video "Darnell Film Compilation, April 18, 2019" are in the correct sequence, particularly "Parking Lot" then "Cop at the Fence/Crowd at the Base of the Grassy Knoll" then "Sitzman/Wiseman" then "Jacob/Holt/Simmons Stepping Down From The Pergola Patio" then "Jacob/Holt/Simmons Walking On The Grass Towards The TSBD"?

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: James Hackerott on April 24, 2019, 04:36:31 PM
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James,

1) Just curious -- How did you go about showing that?

2) If Darnell was changing lenses in Towner, could said action while running, and at a distance look similar to windin' 'er up?

3) Do you think the "clips" in Denis' recent youtube video "Darnell Film Compilation, April 18, 2019" are in the correct sequence, particularly "Parking Lot" then "Cop at the Fence/Crowd at the Base of the Grassy Knoll" then "Sitzman/Wiseman" then "Jacob/Holt/Simmons Stepping Down From The Pergola Patio" then "Jacob/Holt/Simmons Walking On The Grass Towards The TSBD"?

--  MWT   ;)
Thomas,
1)
All of the scenes, except for the rail yard/parking area, were created and compared in my 3D model, in which I tweaked various camera locations while varying lens focal length. The Sitzman and Team JHS scenes were particularly useful as they both contained Pergola cutouts in the background that assisted in placing both the subjects, background, and camera distances. I can post those scene recreations if you like.

2)
Sure, with the video resolution we have of that Towner film he could be rotating the lens turret, winding the camera spring, or just holding the camera while jogging. The point I was wanting to make was that per (1) above the lens was not changed from Sitzman to JHS scenes. If he was playing Russian Roulette with the turret then by chance the same lens ended up in the same place :).

3)
The only scene sequences I am 100% confident are the scenes as Darnell first strolls down Elm and the Sitzman/JHS scenes. The Sitzman/JHS dots are connected by Darnell in the Tina Towner film. After crossing Elm I'm not positive about his path and continue to try to figure it out.

James

Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 24, 2019, 05:20:23 PM
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Thomas,
1)
All of the scenes, except for the rail yard/parking area, were created and compared in my 3D model, in which I tweaked various camera locations while varying lens focal length. The Sitzman and Team JHS scenes were particularly useful as they both contained Pergola cutouts in the background that assisted in placing both the subjects, background, and camera distances. I can post those scene recreations if you like.

2)
Sure, with the video resolution we have of that Towner film he could be rotating the lens turret, winding the camera spring, or just holding the camera while jogging. The point I was wanting to make was that per (1) above the lens was not changed from Sitzman to JHS scenes. If he was playing Russian Roulette with the turret then by chance the same lens ended up in the same place :).

3)
The only scene sequences I am 100% confident are the scenes as Darnell first strolls down Elm and the Sitzman/JHS scenes. The Sitzman/JHS dots are connected by Darnell in the Tina Towner film. After crossing Elm I'm not positive about his path and continue to try to figure it out.

James

Thanks James.

You wrote: "The Sitzman/JHS dots are connected by Darnell in the Tina Towner film."

Question:  Other than the fact that he used the same lens for Sitzman and for the two JHS segments, how do we know for sure that Sitzman then JHS is the correct sequence, with no other segment intervening? 

Just because in Towner we see him coming from the area where Sitzman was "captured" talking with Wiseman?

Couldn't he have been coming directly from a different scene (like the "parking lot" or the "cop at the fence") in which he'd used a longer focal-length lens?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on April 24, 2019, 06:07:04 PM
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For one thing, to me the two mentioned Deputies does not mean "mass numbers of law enforcement standing on the corner of Main/Houston" being "attracted to the railroad car area well behind Zapruder/The Pergola", as your question asks. What "same area somehow becomes" what "The Scene as I call it"? Your timing statements need a little more corroboration, and try to remember, "Motorcades" tend to move along much faster than "Parades", and pedestrians. And, the first thing I recall noticing about DealeyPlaza was the 'smallness' in person compared to film and photos.

Maybe you failed to notice, Mr Storing, but my post, and Mr Graves post, both provided corroboration for what we both posted.

    The film footage attributed to Darnell which shows Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig in the train car area behind the Pergola also shows numerous/"Mass" members of law enforcement also being back there. This is Not in dispute.  It is your "smallness" of Dealey Plaza and the minimum length of distance from the corner of Elm/Houston down to the The Steps which ran down from the Shelter that stood immediately behind Zapruder, which makes it obvious that for whatever reason Darnell was progressing down Elm St at a snails pace. Darnell should have easily been able to go from the corner of Elm/Houston down to The Steps area and Not be passed by a Press Bus which was Sitting at a Dead Stop and well Behind him on Houston St. The footage of Deputy Roger Craig behind the Pergola in the railroad car area amidst that throng of law enforcement already back there makes its' accepted timeline as being Bogus. Remember, Deputy Craig examined the Man Hole Cover area on the (S) side of Elm St. BEFORE he crossed Elm and went back behind the Pergola into the train car area where we see him on the film footage. Another consideration is that we really do Not know if we are seeing the film footage in the chronological order it was actually filmed. Is it possible that the filming of the 3 ladies walking across the Knoll, and that of Sitzman standing by the Zapruder Perch were actually filmed Before the Deputy Roger Craig segment?. Much of the current film footage attributed to Darnell has been discovered in bits and pieces and patched together over the course of 55+ years 
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 24, 2019, 06:13:30 PM
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    The film footage attributed to Darnell which shows Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig in the train car area behind the Pergola also shows numerous/"Mass" members of law enforcement also being back there. This is Not in dispute.  It is your "smallness" of Dealey Plaza and the minimum length of distance from the corner of Elm/Houston down to the The Steps which ran down from the Shelter that stood immediately behind Zapruder, which makes it obvious that for whatever reason Darnell was progressing down Elm St at a snails pace. Darnell should have easily been able to go from the corner of Elm/Houston down to The Steps area and Not be passed by a Press Bus which was Sitting at a Dead Stop and well Behind him on Houston St. The footage of Deputy Roger Craig behind the Pergola in the railroad car area amidst that throng of law enforcement already back there makes its' accepted timeline as being Bogus. Remember, Deputy Craig examined the Man Hole Cover area on the (S) side of Elm St. BEFORE he crossed Elm and went back behind the Pergola into the train car area where we see him on the film footage. Another consideration is that we really do Not know if we are seeing the film footage in the chronological order it was actually filmed. Is it possible that the filming of the 3 ladies walking across the Knoll, and that of Sitzman standing by the Zapruder Perch were actually filmed Before the Deputy Roger Craig segment?. Much of the current film footage attributed to Darnell has been discovered in bits and pieces and patched together over the course of 55+ years

Battles Royell,

Just curious: Are you an Alterationist?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 27, 2019, 09:30:57 AM
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This scene is burned in my mind as representing the three women Stella Jacob, Karen Holt and Sharon Simmons. The following animation frame count was thinned by about 75% to manage size while still capturing the action which lasts almost 4 seconds in real time. This scene follows the frames included in Denis Morissette's Darnell compilation showing the women while still on the pergola patio, which after duplicate frames are removed lasts a little more than 1.4 seconds.

The women have now left the pergola patio and are on the grass still walking eastward. Off camera to the right there seems to be one or more people interacting with the women. Sharon points with her left hand's index finger over her right shoulder ? perhaps indicating where they stood during the shooting. Karen displays her horror of the event while raising her open right hand to her chest as if to punctuate what she is saying. Stella is more animated yet, boldly splaying her hands while rolling her eyes skyward, seemingly with a slight grin grimace on her face.
(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)

While a little  hard to detect in the very late frames, Darnell and the women stop walking but the women continue to interact with those hidden figures out of frame. Are they being interviewed by reporters or law enforcement? Obviously, I don't know, but at some point Jacob, Holt and Simmons talked with Deputy C.L. ?Lummie? Lewis of the Dallas County Sheriff's Department. In his supplemental investigation report November 23, 1963 he specifically wrote on page 1 that he talked with these three women.

(https://i.imgur.com/kRyVTg2.png)

James

Bumped.

To break the "Who took this film of Amos Euins" monotony, and because it's another excellent Iacoletti-deflating post by James Hackerott.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 27, 2019, 11:48:31 PM

We've proven the 3 Women Karen Westbrook falsely identified in Zapruder as herself, Calvery and some other woman are actually Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...

This proves beyond a doubt that Tall Woman is Calvery which in turn proves it is Calvery on the steps in Darnell...

Once you confirm Calvery is on the steps in Darnell you have to calibrate it to Frazier's locating of Stanton via Calvery...

Any credible orientation of Calvery to Frazier's saying he spoke to Sarah about what Calvery said and stared at her for the longest time shows that Frazier is staring at Prayer Man for the entire length of the Darnell clip which proves he is looking at Prayer Man when he said he was looking at Stanton...

The Prayer Man people avoid this like the devil because they know it is proof...

Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 28, 2019, 11:23:14 PM
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So do it, already!

Repeating a claim doesn't make it more true.

So who's "we"? No answer?

He, himself, and him
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 29, 2019, 02:42:30 AM
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We've proven the 3 Women Karen Westbrook falsely identified in Zapruder as herself, Calvery and some other woman are actually Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...

This proves beyond a doubt that Tall Woman is Calvery which in turn proves it is Calvery on the steps in Darnell...

Once you confirm Calvery is on the steps in Darnell you have to calibrate it to Frazier's locating of Stanton via Calvery...

Any credible orientation of Calvery to Frazier's saying he spoke to Sarah about what Calvery said and stared at her for the longest time shows that Frazier is staring at Prayer Man for the entire length of the Darnell clip which proves he is looking at Prayer Man when he said he was looking at Stanton...

The Prayer Man people avoid this like the devil because they know it is proof...

Isn't it funny how everything looks blob-ish to Iacoletti?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 29, 2019, 05:08:10 AM
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We've proven the 3 Women Karen Westbrook falsely identified in Zapruder as herself, Calvery and some other woman are actually Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...

This proves beyond a doubt that Tall Woman is Calvery which in turn proves it is Calvery on the steps in Darnell...

You?ve proven nothing ? beyond a doubt or otherwise.

Quote
Any credible orientation of Calvery to Frazier's saying he spoke to Sarah about what Calvery said and stared at her for the longest time

Frazier didn?t say that. You just made it up.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 29, 2019, 05:09:23 AM
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Isn't it funny how everything looks blob-ish to Iacoletti?

No, just blobs.

Isn?t funny how much detail Graves pretends to see in blobs?
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 29, 2019, 05:22:48 AM
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No, just blobs.

Isn?t funny how much detail Graves pretends to see in blobs?

Iacoletti,

Thank you for admitting that your vision is even worse than it's widely suspected to be.

-- MWT   ;)

Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 29, 2019, 05:37:42 AM

 I think everyone else but Iacoletti agrees the 3 Women are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob and are the same women in Zapruder and Towner...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 29, 2019, 04:37:58 PM
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Thank you for admitting that your vision is even worse than it's widely suspected to be.

The last refuge of someone driven by pareidolia.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 29, 2019, 04:43:55 PM
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I think everyone else but Iacoletti agrees the 3 Women are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob and are the same women in Zapruder and Towner...

Well, you think wrong. As usual.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on April 29, 2019, 05:35:20 PM
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Isn't it funny how everything looks blob-ish to Iacoletti?

-- MWT   ;)

    This is the same Group Think that resulted in the Old Guard JFK Research Community committing Boner-After-Boner.  Sit around and talk a subject to death until a gaggle goes bobble head and simply nods in agreement. They then repeatedly rubber stamp that Opinion as being a FACT. The McKinnon/Mumford botched ID that stood for roughly 40 years should be a wake up call. Instead, we currently have lemmings marching toward this same cliff.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 29, 2019, 10:57:35 PM
Dear Battles Royell,

I wrote:

"Isn't it funny how everything looks blob-ish to Iacoletti?"


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This is the same Group Think that resulted in the Old Guard JFK Research Community committing Boner-After-Boner.  Sit around and talk a subject to death until a gaggle goes bobble head and simply nods in agreement. They then repeatedly rubber stamp that Opinion as being a FACT. The McKinnon/Mumford botched ID that stood for roughly 40 years should be a wake up call. Instead, we currently have lemmings marching toward this same cliff.

How does your post relate to what I wrote?

-- MWT   ;)

Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 30, 2019, 06:04:52 AM
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Dear Battles Royell,

Those who have good arguments make them. Those who don?t resort to nicknames and sarcasm.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 30, 2019, 01:46:16 PM
There?s a guy who used to post here who would take every Dealey plaza picture he could find and blow them up and look for any shape or anomaly he could find anywhere and he would circle them and declare that they were ?gunmen?. There were ?gunmen? everywhere: in the bushes by the peristyle, on top of the pergola, and even on the pillar in front of the TSBD. He thought they were ?obvious? too, and that people must be ?blind? not to see them.

You?re a lot like that guy.
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 30, 2019, 02:16:07 PM

There's no point in giving further opportunity for naysay denial...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 30, 2019, 05:27:38 PM
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There?s a guy who used to post here who would take every Dealey plaza picture he could find and blow them up and look for any shape or anomaly he could find anywhere and he would circle them and declare that they were ?gunmen?. There were ?gunmen? everywhere: in the bushes by the peristyle, on top of the pergola, and even on the pillar in front of the TSBD. He thought they were ?obvious? too, and that people must be ?blind? not to see them.

You?re a lot like that guy.

Funny how you had to overly blow-up Calvery's face in Betzner-3 in order to not see her glasses.

LOL

-- MWT   ;)

PS  Didn't your mother ever tell you that back-in-the-day, men wore trousers and women wore dresses, especially while watching a presidential motorcade in late November in Texas?

Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 30, 2019, 05:59:09 PM
This is what Tommy has spent hours and hours of time and multiple forum threads obsessing over:

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/towner-blobs.png)

Seriously Tommy, just let your obsession with these 3 people go.  It really has nothing to do with the assassination.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on April 30, 2019, 06:24:13 PM
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Seriously Tommy, just let your obsession with these 3 people go.  It really has nothing to do with the assassination.

You're absolutely right.

Except for the fact that those three people on the Pergola Patio in the Towner film are the same three people that James Darnell filmed as they were stepping down from said patio (and as they were walking across the grass in the direction of the TSBD), and that, by matching the garments they were wearing in that Towner film with the garments (dark-complected) Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt and Sharron Simmons were wearing in Zapruder and Betzner and Bronson as they were standing next to other, that these three people must be the same people who were photographically captured "by" the Stemmons Sign by Zapruder and Betzner and Bronson during the motorcade, and that, by looking at the faces of those three gals in the recently augmented Darnell clip, we can now say that your Karen Westbrook was "all wet" when she, from behind and 54 years after-the-fact, attempted to identify herself as the blue headscarf-wearing one (in reality Sharon Simmons), and the average-height, strawberry-blond-blond gal standing next to her as Gloria Calvert (sic), and that since strawberry-blond, glasses-free Gloria HOLT isn't big, tall, glasses-wearing Gloria CALVERY, then Westbrook and Calvery must have been standing somewhere else, with their two colleagues Karan Hicks and Sharon Reed (where are they, according to your Karen "All Wet" Westbrook, btw?) and "about halfway between Houston Street and The Triple Underpass, on the north side of Elm Street," and that the four consecutive headscarf-wearing gals in Zapruder are the most likely candidates for that four-woman group, and yep, that big tall one who's wearing the black blouse (or sweater) and the black headscarf next to John Templin in Zapruder (and who can be seen wearing glasses in Betzner-3) is the best candidate for big, tall, stylin' glasses-wearin' Gloria Calvery, and how, lo-and-behold, she can be seen in close proximity to her all-in-white colleague in Couch-Darnell as she's talking with Billy Lovelady (or maybe Joe Molina) about 25 seconds after the assassination.

That's all, you, you, you ... colorblind, weak-sighted NAYSAYER, you.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 30, 2019, 07:24:59 PM
Only 5 small problems with your contrived narrative.

- You haven't demonstrated that Darnell took his footage at or near the same time as your blobby Towner clip

- You haven't actually "matched" anyone's garments -- you've just engaged in a lot of wishful thinking.

- You think your wishful thinking trumps somebody who was there that day.

- You think that repeating the same claims over and over again will somehow make them true.

- You won't ever just let it go.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on April 30, 2019, 08:13:19 PM
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This is what Tommy has spent hours and hours of time and multiple forum threads obsessing over:

(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/towner-blobs.png)

Seriously Tommy, just let your obsession with these 3 people go.  It really has nothing to do with the assassination.

   I am interested in Who-Is-Who in assassination images as well as their itinerary after the Kill Shot. More important than that is the Time Stamping of assassination images along with Specifically WHO is responsible for having captured said image(s).  It seems Darnell is being given credit for every single assassination image in which the filmer is Unknown/in question. This is not just Wrong, it is flat-out Lazy for JFK Assassination Researchers to do such. Who knows, maybe there was someone or multiple people inside Dealey Plaza capturing images that we do Not know about to this day?  The ID of the Babushka Lady immediately comes to mind and we Know she had a camera of some sort. There were many people capturing images that day, and many of these people were common folk that scare easily. Bill Newman now admits to sleeping with a gun on 11/22/63 after realizing what his family had jumped into with their eyewitness account.  The recent discovery of the Hosty Notes inside the National Archives shows that there is still JFK Assassination Evidence we are unaware of 55+ years after the fact.

                                         - JOHN -
 Nicknames have never bothered me. Anyone resorting to that is short on substance.

 
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 30, 2019, 08:47:02 PM
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she can be seen in close proximity to her all-in-white colleague in Couch-Darnell as she's talking with Billy Lovelady (or maybe Joe Molina) about 25 seconds after the assassination.

That's all, you, you, you ... colorblind, weak-sighted NAYSAYER, you.


No doubt it is Molina since Lovelady is on the extension...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 30, 2019, 08:56:00 PM
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No doubt it is Molina since Lovelady is on the extension...

 :D
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on April 30, 2019, 09:56:46 PM
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No doubt it is Molina since Lovelady is on the extension...

     Stating your Opinion as Fact is quickly becoming your Calling Card. "Caveat Emptor" being on the flip side of said card.
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 30, 2019, 11:10:45 PM
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     Stating your Opinion as Fact is quickly becoming your Calling Card. "Caveat Emptor" being on the flip side of said card.


You apparently haven't seen the evidence that proves it...Molina said he moved to that side in his testimony and you can't name anyone else who it could be....

Any photographic comparison proves it is Molina for those with the skill to realize it...

It is 100% Molina...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 30, 2019, 11:27:21 PM
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You apparently haven't seen the evidence that proves it...Molina said he moved to that side in his testimony and you can't name anyone else who it could be....

Any photographic comparison proves it is Molina for those with the skill to realize it...

It is 100% Molina...

Doyle's usual BS shtick.  He just declares that it's Molina and bases it on nothing but his alleged "skill".
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 01, 2019, 08:20:40 AM
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Doyle's usual BS shtick.  He just declares that it's Molina and bases it on nothing but his alleged "skill".

Iacoletti,

At least Doyle can see that the three people on the Pergola Patio in the Towner film are women.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 01, 2019, 01:01:11 PM
There's no rational point to dignifying the responses of a gratuitous naysayer...The women Westbrook erroneously claimed were herself and Calvery are proven and verified to be Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...Since Iacoletti is the ignorable outlier we can refer to this as proven...

That means the Tall Women group are Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook...Which proves the woman on the steps is Calvery...Which in turn proves Frazier is turned towards and talking to Stanton in Darnell like he detailed...

The JFK research community has decided to destroy its own credibility and establish a hierarchy of uncredible petty egotists lacking in competency who are only interested in their banning-enforced self-imposed position in that community...

   
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on May 01, 2019, 03:08:59 PM
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There's no rational point to dignifying the responses of a gratuitous naysayer...The women Westbrook erroneously claimed were herself and Calvery are proven and verified to be Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...Since Iacoletti is the ignorable outlier we can refer to this as proven...

That means the Tall Women group are Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook...Which proves the woman on the steps is Calvery...Which in turn proves Frazier is turned towards and talking to Stanton in Darnell like he detailed...

The JFK research community has decided to destroy its own credibility and establish a hierarchy of uncredible petty egotists lacking in competency who are only interested in their banning-enforced self-imposed position in that community...

   

     If you are going to reference Frazier's "DETAILED" description of who he was "Turned towards and talking to" on the Darnell film, You need to Supply that "DETAILED" Frazier Quotation and the Source from which it came.  This is the manner in which Real Evidence is presented.
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 01, 2019, 03:39:20 PM
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     If you are going to reference Frazier's "DETAILED" description of who he was "Turned towards and talking to" on the Darnell film, You need to Supply that "DETAILED" Frazier Quotation and the Source from which it came.  This is the manner in which Real Evidence is presented.


Already posted repeatedly in the Prayer Woman thread...

It is in Frazier's 2013 6th Floor Museum interview with Stephen Fagin where he speaks of Sarah turning to him and speaking to him when Calvery shouted the president has been shot... There's another video or transcript where Frazier said after Calvery made her announcement Sarah and I stared at each other in shock for the longest time...In Darnell you see Calvery at the steps and Frazier and Prayer Man staring at each other for the entire length of the clip...Prayer Man is in the same spot he was in Wiegman where Davidson proved he had the face of a woman...The only woman that could be is Sarah Stanton...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on May 01, 2019, 03:49:12 PM
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Already posted repeatedly in the Prayer Woman thread...

It is in Frazier's 2013 6th Floor Museum interview with Stephen Fagin where he speaks of Sarah turning to him and speaking to him when Calvery shouted the president has been shot... There's another video or transcript where Frazier said after Calvery made her announcement Sarah and I stared at each other in shock for the longest time...In Darnell you see Calvery at the steps and Frazier and Prayer Man staring at each other for the entire length of the clip...Prayer Man is in the same spot he was in Wiegman where Davidson proved he had the face of a woman...The only woman that could be is Sarah Stanton...

    (1) You're paraphrasing Not supplying "DETAILED" quotes. (2) You go on to additionally claim a "video or transcript".  Not only do you once again Fail to provide an actual Quotation, you are also unsure of its' source.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 01, 2019, 04:01:55 PM
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At least Doyle can see that the three people on the Pergola Patio in the Towner film are women.

It's nice when somebody agrees with your subjective opinion, isn't it?
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 01, 2019, 04:05:38 PM
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There's no rational point to dignifying the responses of a gratuitous naysayer...The women Westbrook erroneously claimed were herself and Calvery are proven and verified to be Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...

When are you going to learn that a claim is not the same as a proof?  I could just as easily say, "the women Doyle erroneously claimed were Jacob, Holt, and Simmons are proven and verified to be Westbrook, Calvery, and Reed".

Quote
Since Iacoletti is the ignorable outlier we can refer to this as proven...

No, the way you can refer to this as proven is to actually prove it.

Quote
The JFK research community has decided to destroy its own credibility and establish a hierarchy of uncredible petty egotists lacking in competency who are only interested in their banning-enforced self-imposed position in that community...

No, the JFK research community has appropriately shunned a blatant and belligerent disinformationist.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 01, 2019, 04:10:48 PM
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There's another video or transcript where Frazier said after Calvery made her announcement Sarah and I stared at each other in shock for the longest time...

No there isn't.  You made that up.

Quote
In Darnell you see Calvery at the steps and Frazier and Prayer Man staring at each other for the entire length of the clip...

No you don't.  You see a person in dark clothing who has not been identified with their back toward the camera, and Prayer person and a person who may be Frazier with not enough resolution to see if or where they are looking.  Everything else is made up Doyle nonsense.

Quote
Prayer Man is in the same spot he was in Wiegman where Davidson proved he had the face of a woman...

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/50390f82525f5158db33acb14cb03b36/tenor.gif)
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I didn't prove anything, yet.

Quote
The only woman that could be is Sarah Stanton...

It could be lots of people.  It could even be somebody we've never heard of.
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 01, 2019, 05:37:32 PM



At 33:47 Frazier describes talking to Sarah and he and Sarah looking at each other after Gloria Calvery ran up and said the president has been shot...It the Darnell clip of Prayer Man Calvery has gotten to steps and has already finished saying the president has been shot... The reason Prayer Man and Frazier are looking at each other for the entire stretch of Darnell is because it is Frazier and Sarah discussing what Calvery said like he describes...

Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Duncan MacRae on May 01, 2019, 06:02:06 PM
A reminder, to whom it may concern:

"Posts which contain member directed mocking nicknames towards other members may be deleted. The offender may receive a posting suspension"
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 01, 2019, 06:55:19 PM
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At 33:47 Frazier describes talking to Sarah and he and Sarah looking at each other after Gloria Calvery ran up and said the president has been shot...

Where's the "video or transcript where Frazier said after Calvery made her announcement Sarah and I stared at each other in shock for the longest time"?  This ain't it.

Quote
It the Darnell clip of Prayer Man Calvery has gotten to steps and has already finished saying the president has been shot...

There's no actual evidence that this is Calvery or that this person has already finished saying anything.

Quote
The reason Prayer Man and Frazier are looking at each other for the entire stretch of Darnell is because it is Frazier and Sarah discussing what Calvery said like he describes...

That's a cool story, but there is no evidence to support it.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on May 01, 2019, 08:23:00 PM
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At 33:47 Frazier describes talking to Sarah and he and Sarah looking at each other after Gloria Calvery ran up and said the president has been shot...It the Darnell clip of Prayer Man Calvery has gotten to steps and has already finished saying the president has been shot... The reason Prayer Man and Frazier are looking at each other for the entire stretch of Darnell is because it is Frazier and Sarah discussing what Calvery said like he describes...

    Thanks for providing the Frazier Interview. Your claim is that we are seeing Frazier looking at/conversing with Sarah on the Darnell Film snippet which shows the front steps of the TSBD. At 34:00 in the interview you provided,  Frazier recalls that he talked with Sarah BEFORE Shelley & Lovelady went down "Toward the triple underpass".  Shelley and Lovelady were standing on the TSBD steps when the shooting occurred. With Frazier claiming he talked with Sarah BEFORE Shelley and Lovelady left the TSBD front steps,  do you also claim to see Shelley and Lovelady on this same Darnell snippet standing on the TSBD front steps?  I believe Frazier is simply mistaken as to When his conversation with Sarah occurred after the assassination. The fact that Shelley and Lovelady did Not leave the TSBD steps and go "toward the triple underpass" casts further doubt as to Frazier's recollection(s).   
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 01, 2019, 09:56:19 PM
Yeah, I'm sure you do...Hopefully we can get all this in front of Frazier and point it out to him and ask him about the timing of when he was talking to Sarah...

You won't win Royell because Frazier made clear that Sarah and himself turned towards each other after hearing what Calvery said...If you look at Wiegman Prayer Man is facing forward and is squared to the steps...Prayer Man then turns towards Frazier in Darnell as Frazier described he and Sarah doing...

In another video or interview Frazier said he and Sarah stared at each other in shock for the longest time after they talked to each other about what Calvery said...And that is what you see in the sequence from Wiegman to Darnell where Prayer Man turns towards Frazier and they face each other for the full length of the Darnell clip...

In the Couch/Darnell clip you can see Lovelady & Shelley going up the Elm St extension about 3 seconds after talking to Calvery at the steps...

Prayer Man has Stanton's 5 foot 4 height, wide women's hips, and obese forearm...I have recently realized the reason Prayer Man's left arm is a wide blur is because it is Stanton's obese left arm...   

Your claim is disingenuous because Frazier says after he talked to Sarah and after Lovelady & Shelley went down to the Tripe Underpass he stood there for a few minutes with Sarah...He is gesturing to his right to the Prayer Man spot when saying this...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 01, 2019, 10:41:01 PM
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Yeah, I'm sure you do...Hopefully we can get all this in front of Frazier and point it out to him and ask him about the timing of when he was talking to Sarah...

Yeah, I'm sure you would tell him that you have "proven" it's Lovelady and Shelley on the extension and Calvery on the steps and all the other nonsense that you made up in order to try to manipulate him into saying what you want.  Just like you did with Rosa and Wanda.

Quote
In another video or interview Frazier said he and Sarah stared at each other in shock for the longest time after they talked to each other about what Calvery said...

No he didn't.  You just made that up.

Quote
And that is what you see in the sequence from Wiegman to Darnell where Prayer Man turns towards Frazier and they face each other for the full length of the Darnell clip...

No, you don't see them "turned towards each other".  That's just something you made up.

Quote
In the Couch/Darnell clip you can see Lovelady & Shelley going up the Elm St extension about 3 seconds after talking to Calvery at the steps...Prayer Man has Stanton's 5 foot 4 height, wide women's hips, and obese forearm...

You don't know that's Lovelady & Shelley and you don't know it's about 3 seconds after talking to Calvery.  You just made that up.

You don't even know that Stanton was 5 foot 4.

Quote
Your claim is disingenuous because Frazier says after he talked to Sarah and after Lovelady & Shelley went down to the Tripe Underpass he stood there for a few minutes with Sarah...He is gesturing to his right to the Prayer Man spot when saying this...

He gestures to his left as well.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on May 02, 2019, 01:05:22 AM
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Yeah, I'm sure you do...Hopefully we can get all this in front of Frazier and point it out to him and ask him about the timing of when he was talking to Sarah...

You won't win Royell because Frazier made clear that Sarah and himself turned towards each other after hearing what Calvery said...If you look at Wiegman Prayer Man is facing forward and is squared to the steps...Prayer Man then turns towards Frazier in Darnell as Frazier described he and Sarah doing...

In another video or interview Frazier said he and Sarah stared at each other in shock for the longest time after they talked to each other about what Calvery said...And that is what you see in the sequence from Wiegman to Darnell where Prayer Man turns towards Frazier and they face each other for the full length of the Darnell clip...

In the Couch/Darnell clip you can see Lovelady & Shelley going up the Elm St extension about 3 seconds after talking to Calvery at the steps...

Prayer Man has Stanton's 5 foot 4 height, wide women's hips, and obese forearm...I have recently realized the reason Prayer Man's left arm is a wide blur is because it is Stanton's obese left arm...   

Your claim is disingenuous because Frazier says after he talked to Sarah and after Lovelady & Shelley went down to the Tripe Underpass he stood there for a few minutes with Sarah...He is gesturing to his right to the Prayer Man spot when saying this...

     I believe that at Some Point in time Frazier did hear Calvery say something along the lines of "The President was shot", and I also believe that at Some Point Frazier spoke with Sarah. I do Not Believe this ALL happened during the approximate time frame of the Darnell Snippet showing the front of the TSBD. Included in the Frazier interview you provided, Frazier recalls walking down from the TSBD steps and wandering around amidst the mayhem unfolding before him and then eventually returning to the front of the TSBD.  Considering everything that was going on around him on 11/22/63, in addition to the proffered interview of Frazier being 50 years after the assassination, Frazier has a confused timeline of the Calvery pronouncement, and then his immediate conversation with Sarah. Bottom line = There is No Way Calvery could have stated "The Pres was shot", and Frazier conversed with Sarah BEFORE Shelley and Lovelady went down "To the triple underpass. This is another Frazier claim on the interview you provided. Again, Frazier has an inaccurate/confused time line of events following the Kill Shot.
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 02, 2019, 05:16:02 AM

That's ridiculous...Shelley confirmed Calvery shouted the president was shot on her way to the steps in his first day affidavit...Frazier doesn't have a confused timeline because what you see in the Couch/Darnell film confirms it...You see Lovelady & Shelley 3 seconds on their way up the extension and you see Calvery on the steps...Since Shelley confirmed Calvery shouted on her way to the steps that means Calvery has finished her shouting and also finished her talking to Lovelady & Shelley...It has to have happened during this time period because that is when Calvery shouted so therefore that is when Frazier was told by Sarah that she thought Calvery said the president has been shot...50 years makes no difference to what anyone can see in the film so you haven't answered the facts and you haven't made a credible argument towards what we are talking about here...

Ah, sorry but if you pay attention to the evidence Calvery shouted on the way to the steps so therefore the timing is perfect for Calvery saying "The president has been shot" before she talks to Lovelady & Shelley (which is why they talked to her to find out more)...And during this whole process Frazier is conversing with Sarah and then stares at her for the longest time...Fits perfectly and makes Prayer Man Stanton...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 02, 2019, 01:37:41 PM
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That's ridiculous...Shelley confirmed Calvery shouted the president was shot on her way to the steps in his first day affidavit...Frazier doesn't have a confused timeline because what you see in the Couch/Darnell film confirms it...You see Lovelady & Shelley 3 seconds on their way up the extension and you see Calvery on the steps...

No Doyle, that what you ?see?.

Quote
Since Shelley confirmed Calvery shouted on her way to the steps that means Calvery has finished her shouting and also finished her talking to Lovelady & Shelley...

This is a perfect example of why Doyle never quotes anything verbatim.

From Shelley?s affidavit:
"I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building."
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on May 02, 2019, 03:37:27 PM
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That's ridiculous...Shelley confirmed Calvery shouted the president was shot on her way to the steps in his first day affidavit...Frazier doesn't have a confused timeline because what you see in the Couch/Darnell film confirms it...You see Lovelady & Shelley 3 seconds on their way up the extension and you see Calvery on the steps...Since Shelley confirmed Calvery shouted on her way to the steps that means Calvery has finished her shouting and also finished her talking to Lovelady & Shelley...It has to have happened during this time period because that is when Calvery shouted so therefore that is when Frazier was told by Sarah that she thought Calvery said the president has been shot...50 years makes no difference to what anyone can see in the film so you haven't answered the facts and you haven't made a credible argument towards what we are talking about here...

Ah, sorry but if you pay attention to the evidence Calvery shouted on the way to the steps so therefore the timing is perfect for Calvery saying "The president has been shot" before she talks to Lovelady & Shelley (which is why they talked to her to find out more)...And during this whole process Frazier is conversing with Sarah and then stares at her for the longest time...Fits perfectly and makes Prayer Man Stanton...

    Again, the Frazier interview YOU provided, documents Frazier remembering the Calvery shouting and his conversation with Sarah occurring BEFORE Shelley and Lovelady went "toward the triple underpass". How long AFTER the Kill Shot do you believe it took Shelley and Lovelady to leave the TSBD Steps and begin running up the Elm St Extension? (As seen on film). How long after the Kill Shot do you believe it took Officer Baker to sprint toward the TSBD Steps? (As seen on film).  For your claim to be true, you also need to reset the currently accepted timelines of Shelley, Lovelady, Officer Baker, and the assassination films in which they appear.   
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 02, 2019, 06:52:27 PM
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    Again, the Frazier interview YOU provided, documents Frazier remembering the Calvery shouting and his conversation with Sarah occurring BEFORE Shelley and Lovelady went "toward the triple underpass". How long AFTER the Kill Shot do you believe it took Shelley and Lovelady to leave the TSBD Steps and begin running up the Elm St Extension? (As seen on film). How long after the Kill Shot do you believe it took Officer Baker to sprint toward the TSBD Steps? (As seen on film).  For your claim to be true, you also need to reset the currently accepted timelines of Shelley, Lovelady, Officer Baker, and the assassination films in which they appear.


Royell, I don't think you realize this is much more defined than you seem to indicate in your replies...The best heads in Kennedy research figured out that the Couch/Darnell clip starts 25 to 30 seconds after the last shot...The Lithping Larry Grayson "Oooh Shut That Door" doppleganger doesn't know what he is doing and tends to bend everything towards his pet theories so you can't trust anything he says...Him and Parker are evidence hackers who think they can go in and re-hammer evidence to fit what they want...I estimate Lovelady & Shelley are about 3 seconds up the Elm St extension after talking to Calvery at the steps in Couch/Darnell...So what the rational analyst surmises from this is it took Calvery 3 or 4 seconds to quickly say the president was hit after getting to the steps and further relating what she was shouting to Lovelady & Shelley...Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery at the steps because they heard Calvery shouting and wanted to know more...There is very little good detective skill in the present JFK research community because Lovelady & Shelley speaking to Calvery shows functional or behavioral evidence that Calvery had shouted on the way to the steps as Frazier describes elsewhere...Calvery was acting out on an adrenaline rush that happened when she saw Kennedy's head explode in front of her and she ran back to the steps in a fight or flight body reaction...If Lovelady & Shelley are seen 3 seconds after leaving the steps at the start of Couch/Darnell, and they spoke to Calvery for 3 seconds before leaving, that means we subtract 6 seconds from the start of Couch/Darnell and estimate Calvery got to the steps at 19 seconds after the last shot...If the start of Couch/Darnell is 30 seconds after the last shot then Calvery arrives at the steps 24 seconds after the last shot...Either of these times dovetails perfectly with the time it would have taken Calvery to run from the Tall Woman location in the spectators...

The Couch/Darnell film shows Baker running towards the steps and just getting to the curb...It is what you see and whatever the time is in that clip is how long it took...Somewhere around 30 seconds is what you are seeing...The film is the reality...

What I'm posting are the currently accepted times...The Lithping Larry Grayson "Oooh Shut That Door" doppleganger is rubbish...

 
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 02, 2019, 07:00:17 PM
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Hey Brian;
Things were happening quite fast in DealeyPlaza at and/or about 12:30pm CST on 11/22/'63, (My take) and what I see in DarnellFilm is PrayerPersonImage either at the very end, or very beginning of a head turn. And, said head turn is due to PPI observing GloriaCalveryImage's arrival at the TSBD Bldg entrance stairs and announcing what she had just witnessed, and PPI conversing with BuellWesleyFrazierImage regarding said announcement
. Also, (My take) as GCI is entering the stairway, she is behind a PersonImage, quite possibly KarenWestbrookImage, instead of facing a PersonImage.

Considering evidence indicative of BWF conversing with SarahDeanStanton regarding the announcement by arriving GC, said evidence (My take) offers a quite credible indication that PPI represents SDS.

If WilliamShelley and BillyLovelady encountered GC "at the corner of the park" after crossing "the street", (My take) said street would be the Old Elm St extension, and then WS and BL walked west towards the end of the TSBD Bldg and/or the parking and RR Track area.


It is kind of obvious Stanton is turning towards Frazier in between Wiegman and Darnell, as he describes in the interview...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 02, 2019, 07:42:02 PM
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The Lithping Larry Grayson "Oooh Shut That Door" doppleganger doesn't know what he is doing and tends to bend everything towards his pet theories so you can't trust anything he says...Him and Parker are evidence hackers who think they can go in and re-hammer evidence to fit what they want...

Says the guy who is now up to 401 falsehoods and fabrications.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1749.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1749.0.html)

Quote
Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery at the steps because they heard Calvery shouting and wanted to know more...

Shelley said he spoke to Calvery across the street at the "corner of the park".

Quote
Calvery was acting out on an adrenaline rush that happened when she saw Kennedy's head explode in front of her and she ran back to the steps in a fight or flight body reaction...

Pure fabrication.

Quote
If Lovelady & Shelley are seen 3 seconds after leaving the steps at the start of Couch/Darnell,

You don't know this is "3 seconds after leaving the steps".  You don't even know this is Lovelady and Shelley.

Quote
Either of these times dovetails perfectly with the time it would have taken Calvery to run from the Tall Woman location in the spectators...

You have no freakin' clue how much time it would take Calvery to run from the Tall Woman location to the steps.  There's nothing "perfect" about this.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 06, 2019, 09:17:50 AM
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You have no freakin' clue how much time it would take Calvery to run from the Tall Woman location to the steps.

Iacoletti,

How long do you think it would have taken you to run from where your "Glasses Woman" "Tall Woman" is standing in Betzner-3 to the TSBD steps, about 50 yards away?

Two minutes?

Three?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 06, 2019, 01:51:41 PM
Get a life, Tommy.
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 06, 2019, 03:17:16 PM

For serious posters who are interested in looking at the evidence sincerely and honestly, It would take an adrenaline-stoked person who had a fight or flight reaction to seeing somebody's head explode from a bullet about the 20 seconds Calvery took to get from the Tall Woman position to where she is seen on the steps in Darnell...There is no serious or credible opposition to this already-proven fact...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 06, 2019, 05:43:28 PM
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For serious posters who are interested in looking at the evidence sincerely and honestly, It would take an adrenaline-stoked person who had a fight or flight reaction to seeing somebody's head explode from a bullet about the 20 seconds Calvery took to get from the Tall Woman position to where she is seen on the steps in Darnell...There is no serious or credible opposition to this already-proven fact...

Doyle, you are seriously deluded as to what makes something a ?proven fact?. It not just a guess that you think is plausible.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on May 06, 2019, 07:46:53 PM
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And again, again, well vetted timing indicative information with multiple puzzle pieces of the situational events as they occurred involving various PersonImages as seen, and also including testimony confirming actions and reactions of various Persons matching Image indications of occurrences during and in the immediate aftermath of the fatal shooting of PresidentKennedy and critical wounding of GovernorConnally, should provide reliable evidence that GloriaCalveryImage reached the TSBD Bldg Elm St entrance stairway at about 20 seconds after said shooting(s).

     We hear from eyewitness after eyewitness immediately after the Kill Shot people were hitting the ground or generally stunned and milling around wondering what they had just witnessed. This oft repeated description of the eyewitnesses inside Dealey Plaza flies in the face of those claiming Calvery Immediately left her motorcade viewing position and made a 20 second Bee Line back to the TSBD and sprinted up the steps to where Ol' Buell could stare her down. I'm not saying this was impossible to have happened, but in the face of what we Know as being Fact, it don't fit. Now, if the currently accepted Time Lines of people we see on JFK Assassination images are incorrect, then the alleged Calvery Time Line could have credibility. 
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 06, 2019, 08:05:07 PM
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     We hear from eyewitness after eyewitness immediately after the Kill Shot people were hitting the ground or generally stunned and milling around wondering what they had just witnessed. This oft repeated description of the eyewitnesses inside Dealey Plaza flies in the face of those claiming Calvery Immediately left her motorcade viewing position and made a 20 second Bee Line back to the TSBD and sprinted up the steps to where Ol' Buell could stare her down. I'm not saying this was impossible to have happened, but in the face of what we Know as being Fact, it don't fit. Now, if the currently accepted Time Lines of people we see on JFK Assassination images are incorrect, then the alleged Calvery Time Line could have credibility.


How dare you ignore all the witnesses for this very thing...Not to mention Carol Reed being in all white next to Calvery proving it is her...

Seems point-lessly regressive and willfully evasive of the already-shown evidence...

Just the opposite, it fits Buell Frazier's and Billy Lovelady's descriptions of Calvery reaching the steps perfectly...It has to be her because Carol Reed is right beside her in all white which proves it is Calvery...And Lovelady & Frazier are on their way up the extension so they just spoke to her - which means Calvery has to be on the steps at that time...

So where do you get the idea it doesn't fit?
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on May 06, 2019, 08:20:15 PM
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How dare you ignore all the witnesses for this very thing...Not to mention Carol Reed being in all white next to Calvery proving it is her...

Seems point-lessly regressive and willfully evasive of the already-shown evidence...

Just the opposite, it fits Buell Frazier's and Billy Lovelady's descriptions of Calvery reaching the steps perfectly...It has to be her because Carol Reed is right beside her in all white which proves it is Calvery...And Lovelady & Frazier are on their way up the extension so they just spoke to her - which means Calvery has to be on the steps at that time...

So where do you get the idea it doesn't fit?

      YOU are attempting to avoid the 20 second timeline being assigned to Calvery. It's possible that might be her, but Not in that 20 second time frame. With the Mass Confusion that is Documented to have occurred  inside Dealey Plaza immediately following the Kill Shot, the Calvery 20 second time frame is akin to SA Clint Hill's reactions. SA Hill was a trained/experienced G-Man vs Calvery being one of the masses that day.  Maybe You want to extend that 20 seconds?   
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 06, 2019, 11:17:33 PM
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      YOU are attempting to avoid the 20 second timeline being assigned to Calvery. It's possible that might be her, but Not in that 20 second time frame. With the Mass Confusion that is Documented to have occurred  inside Dealey Plaza immediately following the Kill Shot, the Calvery 20 second time frame is akin to SA Clint Hill's reactions. SA Hill was a trained/experienced G-Man vs Calvery being one of the masses that day.  Maybe You want to extend that 20 seconds?


What are you talking about?...

You're not answering the proven visual evidence I posted in my last post...It has to be Calvery because of the timing of Lovelady & Shelley being 3 seconds up the extension and Carol Reed being the woman in all white next to Calvery...

If you can't answer this proven evidence you've failed to live up to the argument and the evidence...

You've given no reason why 20 seconds is improbable...

Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 07, 2019, 02:11:26 AM
Doyle, you don?t know it?s Carol Reed in white. That just yet another one in a long line of things you just made up and then stated as a fact.

How dare you?
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 09, 2019, 07:48:25 PM
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The testimony/statement regarding positioning, and relative timing, for DPD Motorcycle Patrol Officer, and MotorcadeEscort MarrionBaker, by then on foot after parking his Motorcycle, has to corroborate an approximate 20 second time element for GloriaCalvery to reach the TSBD Stairway, and allows for GloriaCalveryImage to be seen there just ahead of MarrionBakerImage.

Baker, himself, said he spent a few seconds at his motorcycle, looking down the street and listening to his radio, before dashing towards the front steps.

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on May 09, 2019, 08:28:23 PM
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The testimony/statement regarding positioning, and relative timing, for DPD Motorcycle Patrol Officer, and MotorcadeEscort MarrionBaker, has to corroborate an approximate 20 second time element for GloriaCalvery to reach the TSBD Stairway, and allows for GloriaCalveryImage to be seen there just ahead of MarrionBakerImage.

    Again. The time stamping of JFK assassination images and the characters contained within them is critical. Time stamping the alleged "IMAGE" of Calvery is also contingent upon the currently accepted Time Stamp of Officer Baker. This current time stamping is a house of cards = one domino dependent on the other in order for Everything/Everybody we see to neatly fit the accepted narrative. This "domino" Faulty time lining also involves the Wiegman Film and the characters contained within it. The Old Guard JFK Research Community for Over 30 years cavalierly accepted that film having been shot "continuously". Time lines of individuals in this film were assigned based on this False "continuous" belief. We Now KNOW the Wiegman Film was Not filmed continuously which renders the time lines that were erroneously assigned to individuals contained within it Wrong. I believe the 3 camera cars and every other vehicle behind those 3 vehicles were at a Dead Stop longer than is currently accepted. This is why guys like Wiegman, Darnell, etc were jumping out of their camera cars. Wiegman jumped out of his camera car, ran down Elm St, meandered up the Knoll, saw SA Lem Johns up there, (Not contained on his film for some reason), films the alleged Hesters up there, ambles down the Knoll arriving at the Officer Hargis Light Pole, films the Newman Family, and Then sees his camera car is STILL Behind him coming down Elm St? Jesse Owens, (google it), could Not have done all of this in the meager time frame assigned to Wiegman and his Camera Car #1 coming down Elm St.  This longer Stop would also explain why Elm St was Wide Open ahead of Camera Car #1, (Wiegman's car), when it eventually did travel down Elm St.  Camera Car #1 could have fired a cannon from its' front bumper and hit Nothing in front of it on Elm St.     
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Larry Trotter on May 09, 2019, 08:33:20 PM
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Baker, himself, said he spent a few seconds at his motorcycle, looking down the street and listening to his radio, before dashing towards the front steps.

-- MWT  ;)

I didn't recall reading that, but if so a good reason 20 second GCI to arrive ahead of MBI, and yet for him to still make the timing needed for the SFLRE about 60/90 seconds later. Just simply MyTake.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on May 09, 2019, 09:48:32 PM
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I didn't recall reading that, but if so a good reason 20 second GCI to arrive ahead of MBI, and yet for him to still make the timing needed for the SFLRE about 60/90 seconds later. Just simply MyTake.

     This is the ongoing problem for 55+ years. People simply Accepting whatever it takes to Make-It-Fit the accepted narrative vs relying on Fact(s).
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 09, 2019, 10:08:17 PM
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     This is the ongoing problem for 55+ years. People simply Accepting whatever it takes to Make-It-Fit the accepted narrative vs relying on Fact(s).

Why don't you look into it, Royell, and try to prove me wrong?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on May 09, 2019, 11:00:24 PM
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Why don't you look into it, Royell, and try to prove me wrong?

-- MWT   ;)

             FACT 1 - The actual Image is inconclusive.
             FACT 2 - Buell Frazier is Alive and has been telling an ever evolving story for 55+ years. Over these 55+ years he has Not ID'd the Inconclusive Image as being Calvery.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 10, 2019, 12:08:52 AM
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             FACT 1 - The actual Image is inconclusive.
             FACT 2 - Buell Frazier is Alive and has been telling an ever evolving story for 55+ years. Over these 55+ years he has Not ID'd the Inconclusive Image as being Calvery.

No, Royell.

I was referring to my allegation that Marion Baker took a few seconds to look down the street and to listen to his radio before starting to run towards the front steps, thereby giving tall, black-blouse and black-headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery plenty of time to run the fifty yards or so to said steps, and to be "caught" on film there by Darnell while Baker was still running towards the steps, some 25 seconds after the assassination.

Why don't you look into it if you don't trust me?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on May 10, 2019, 04:12:04 PM
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No, Royell.

I was referring to my allegation that Marion Baker took a few seconds to look down the street and to listen to his radio before starting to run towards the front steps, thereby giving tall, black-blouse and black-headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery plenty of time to run the fifty yards or so to said steps, and to be "caught" on film there by Darnell while Baker was still running towards the steps, some 25 seconds after the assassination.

Why don't you look into it if you don't trust me?

-- MWT   ;)

     Until you cite an actual Source for your Claim, there is Nothing to respond to. No source = hearsay/opinion. I took a look at Baker's WC Testimony and what You are claiming is Not in Baker's sworn WC testimony. Baker does mention glancing toward the Triple Underpass. (He makes No mention of listening to his radio). Baker also claims he saw 500 -600 people in the general area in front of the TSBD which we know for a Fact is wildly incorrect.  The problem I have with Officer Baker's WC story is it was Rehearsed Numerous Times with the Warren Comm mouthpiece before being given under oath before the Comm.  Again, this is one of many dominoes which have been painstakingly constructed to fit the overall narrative. Officer Baker did Not just walk up cold and tell his tale to the Warren Comm. He was physically walked through it/spoon fed it Before taking the oath. I do like that You are Now lengthening the currently accepted Time Line. This is a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 10, 2019, 06:07:22 PM
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     Until you cite an actual Source for your Claim, there is Nothing to respond to. No source = hearsay/opinion. I took a look at Baker's WC Testimony and what You are claiming is Not in Baker's sworn WC testimony. Baker does mention glancing toward the Triple Underpass. (He makes No mention of listening to his radio). Baker also claims he saw 500 -600 people in the general area in front of the TSBD which we know for a Fact is wildly incorrect.  The problem I have with Officer Baker's WC story is it was Rehearsed Numerous Times with the Warren Comm mouthpiece before being given under oath before the Comm.  Again, this is one of many dominoes which have been painstakingly constructed to fit the overall narrative. Officer Baker did Not just walk up cold and tell his tale to the Warren Comm. He was physically walked through it/spoon fed it Before taking the oath. I do like that You are Now lengthening the currently accepted Time Line. This is a step in the right direction.

What's the "currently accepted timeline" regarding how long after the final shot Baker began sprinting towards the TSBD steps?

20 seconds?

More?

Less?

What, exactly?

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 10, 2019, 06:27:45 PM
Regardless, I ran the 40-yard dash in 4.7 seconds (and the 100-yard dash in 10.8 seconds) in high school, and I was no speed merchant.

Big, tall, black-blouse and black-headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery was only about 50 yards from the steps, and should have been able to get there in fifteen seconds or so, well before Darnell started filming that scene.

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on May 10, 2019, 08:04:47 PM
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So, do we have a claim that then Dallas PD MotorcyclePatrolOfficer, JFK MotorcadeEscort, future resident of Buffalo, TX, now deceased, MarrionLewisBaker, lied in his testimony about his experience(s) during and after the JFK Sr Assassination and JBC Jr Critical Wounding?

I do not recognize any valid reasong for claiming that OfficerBaker's claim of seeing 500-600 people in the general area in front of the TSBD to be a Fact that we know to be wildly incorrect. Whoever the we are, me aren't.
 >:(

    The Tina Towner film shows the JFK Limo making the complete turn from Houston onto and down Elm St. There are not even 100 people in the area in front of the TSBD. Stop horsing around and try addressing the Facts surrounding this case.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on May 10, 2019, 08:05:47 PM
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Regardless, I ran the 40-yard dash in 4.7 seconds (and the 100-yard dash in 10.8 seconds) in high school, and I was no speed merchant.

Big, tall, black-blouse and black-headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery was only about 50 yards from the steps, and should have been able to get there in fifteen seconds or so, well before Darnell started filming that scene.

-- MWT   ;)

      Again, Time Line issues abound.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on May 10, 2019, 08:30:40 PM
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I stand by my Reply as posted. And, my participation in this conversation is complete.

    Of course You are done. The Towner Film exposes your short comings with regard to your knowledge of the Evidence surrounding this case. Please do some of your own research before popping off. It will help you avoid having to walk away with your head down.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 10, 2019, 09:23:49 PM
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      Again, Time Line issues abound.

Only if you're a tinfoil hat-wearing photo and film "alterationist".

-- MWT   ;)

PS  Where is Sitzman and/or Zapruder in the Paschall film, btw?
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on May 10, 2019, 09:51:35 PM
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Only if you're a tinfoil hat-wearing photo and film "alterationist".

-- MWT   ;)

PS  Where is Sitzman and/or Zapruder in the Paschall film, btw?

    Do Not get your feelings hurt and lash out. That achieves nothing. Do some serious research and then we can have a legit conversation.
   
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Duncan MacRae on May 10, 2019, 09:54:32 PM
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Where is Sitzman and/or Zapruder in the Paschall film, btw?

They are where they have always been in the Paschall film.

(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/ZapSitz.gif)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 10, 2019, 10:00:31 PM
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They are where they have always been in the Paschall film.

(https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/ZapSitz.gif)

Which of those people are Sitzman and Zapruder?

(Don't ask Iacoletti. They be little bloblets to him.)

Different question: Who's the person wearing red?
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Larry Trotter on May 10, 2019, 10:14:42 PM
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     Until you cite an actual Source for your Claim, there is Nothing to respond to. No source = hearsay/opinion. I took a look at Baker's WC Testimony and what You are claiming is Not in Baker's sworn WC testimony. Baker does mention glancing toward the Triple Underpass. (He makes No mention of listening to his radio). Baker also claims he saw 500 -600 people in the general area in front of the TSBD which we know for a Fact is wildly incorrect.  The problem I have with Officer Baker's WC story is it was Rehearsed Numerous Times with the Warren Comm mouthpiece before being given under oath before the Comm.  Again, this is one of many dominoes which have been painstakingly constructed to fit the overall narrative. Officer Baker did Not just walk up cold and tell his tale to the Warren Comm. He was physically walked through it/spoon fed it Before taking the oath. I do like that You are Now lengthening the currently accepted Time Line. This is a step in the right direction.

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So, do we have a claim that then Dallas PD MotorcyclePatrolOfficer, JFK MotorcadeEscort, future resident of Buffalo, TX, now deceased, MarrionLewisBaker, lied in his testimony about his experience(s) during and after the JFK Sr Assassination and JBC Jr Critical Wounding?

I do not recognize any valid reasong for claiming that OfficerBaker's claim of seeing 500-600 people in the general area in front of the TSBD to be a Fact that we know to be wildly incorrect. Whoever the we are, me aren't.
 >:(

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    The Tina Towner film shows the JFK Limo making the complete turn from Houston onto and down Elm St. There are not even 100 people in the area in front of the TSBD. Stop horsing around and try addressing the Facts surrounding this case.

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I stand by my Reply as posted. And, my participation in this conversation is complete.

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    Of course You are done. The Towner Film exposes your short comings with regard to your knowledge of the Evidence surrounding this case. Please do some of your own research before popping off. It will help you avoid having to walk away with your head down.

Strictly as a reminder, I was discussing OfficerBaker's "general area" count that you stated was "wildly incorrect", not what is seen on the corner in the TownerFilm. In any event, don't be concerned about my head until you locate your own, and locate a place to store your insults.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 10, 2019, 10:56:27 PM

Ladies and Gentleman (and John Iacoletti, who apparently doesn't know how to tell them apart), I give you, from left to right:

Self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob,  and her two Texas School Book Depository colleagues -- Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons, the same three women who were "captured" standing by the Stemmons Sign in the Zapruder film.

(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)


-- MWT   ;)

Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Larry Trotter on May 11, 2019, 07:52:58 PM
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Ladies and Gentleman (and John Iacoletti, who apparently doesn't know how to tell them apart), I give you, from left to right:

Self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob,  and her two Texas School Book Depository colleagues -- Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons, the same three women who were "captured" standing by the Stemmons Sign in the Zapruder film.

(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)


-- MWT   ;)

I have to say Mr Graves, considering the available corroborating indicative information relative to the identification of StellaJacob, GloriaHolt, and SharonSimmons as the persons representing said three LadyImages, any dispute should have corroborating indicative information relative to any alternate image identity in order to be credible.

Just offering MyTake, as I acknowledge that you do not need my help with said subject.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 12, 2019, 12:08:59 AM
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I have to say Mr Graves, considering the available corroborating indicative information relative to the identification of StellaJacob, GloriaHolt, and SharonSimmons as the persons representing said three LadyImages, any dispute should have corroborating indicative information relative to any alternate image identity in order to be credible.

Just offering MyTake, as I acknowledge that you do not need my help with said subject.

Larry,

No, but believe it or not I do appreciate your moral support.

You're right, of course. Iacoletti's unwillingness or inability to connect the dots that have been laid out for him and explained to him ad nauseam, and to instead irrationally rely on the corrupted-by-time, obviously misplaced memories of Westbrook (whose putative alter ego "Karen Westbrook" is conveniently wearing a hair-hiding headscarf and a figure-hiding raincoat in the Z-film), from behind and 54 years after-the-fact, is ?ber-lame, especially in Iacoletti's continuing glaring refusal to offer any corroborating evidence that the gal in the middle of the ZapruderTrio is real-deal tall, large, dark red-haired Gloria Calvery.

-- MWT  :)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Robin Unger on May 18, 2019, 01:34:32 AM
Towner GIF

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oJAH7w2nK6c/W64xZN5PTYI/AAAAAAAACaE/VGiAC_fLrDoCNKqFjvEYTDe4pRnSSrHdgCLcBGAs/s1600/towmer.gif)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Robin Unger on May 18, 2019, 01:40:10 AM
Nice post James Hackerott  Thumb1:
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 19, 2019, 09:07:04 PM
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Nice post James Hackerott  Thumb1:

Thanks, Robin!

PS  -- Do you agree with me that the three people on the Pergola Patio are:

1) gasp ...Women?

2) And ... gasp ...that they are the same three women whom Karen Westbrook, in 2017, "identified" in the Zapruder film as "probably Carol Reed, Gloria Cavery, and me, Karen Westbrook!"?

-- MWT  :)
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on May 28, 2019, 03:00:24 PM

The end game is being avoided here...If Unger finally admits the 3 Women are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob then that means Tall Woman is Calvery...

That means responsible researchers then have to determine and also equally admit Calvery is at the steps in Darnell...The timing of this then forces the context of Buell Frazier's locating of Stanton via Calvery and her arrival at the steps...There is no doubt that the time period Frazier spoke of when he described speaking to Stanton and staring at her for the longest time is the same time period seen in Darnell...This in turn leaves no doubt that Frazier is looking at and facing Stanton when he is seen facing Prayer Man in Darnell...

If you are going to admit evidence admit it all...

Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 07, 2019, 03:12:57 PM

Could someone have Iacoletti-defending Moricet tell us the source of that 3 Women clip...Or is the research world a pack of ninnies looking to uphold grudges over good research?...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 07, 2019, 04:42:42 PM
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Could someone have Iacoletti-defending Moricet tell us the source of that 3 Women clip...Or is the research world a pack of ninnies looking to uphold grudges over good research?...

Doyle,

Denis has already stated that he agrees with us that "The Trio" near the Stemmons sign in Zapruder (and walking across the Pergola Patio in Towner and in Darnell) is comprised of Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons, so how is that Iacoletti-supporting on Denis' part?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 07, 2019, 06:30:28 PM
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Doyle,

Denis has already stated that he agrees with us that "The Trio" near the Stemmons sign in Zapruder (and walking across the Pergola Patio in Towner and in Darnell) is comprised of Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons, so how is that Iacoletti-supporting on Denis' part?

-- MWT  ;)


Because when I posted that Iacoletti was therefore obviously lying on Moricet's page (which he was) instead of making Iacoletti answer the correct evidence Moricet demanded I retract my accusation...Recently Moricet posted over here that the middle woman "IS" Holt...When I posted that therefore I was correct in calling Iacoletti a liar because Moricet agreed with me and confirmed it by doing that Moricet did not answer...

Iacoletti is a welcomed guest on Moricet's Facebook page...I was banned...Moricet kept Iacoletti and banned myself...Moricet did not demand Iacoletti account for his wrong claim and his evasion/denial of the evidence...It is my opinion that moderation should always focus on truth and correct evidence rather than manners...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 07, 2019, 11:52:07 PM
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Because when I posted that Iacoletti was therefore obviously lying on Moricet's page (which he was) instead of making Iacoletti answer the correct evidence Moricet demanded I retract my accusation...Recently Moricet posted over here that the middle woman "IS" Holt...When I posted that therefore I was correct in calling Iacoletti a liar because Moricet agreed with me and confirmed it by doing that Moricet did not answer...

Iacoletti is a welcomed guest on Moricet's Facebook page...I was banned...Moricet kept Iacoletti and banned myself...Moricet did not demand Iacoletti account for his wrong claim and his evasion/denial of the evidence...It is my opinion that moderation should always focus on truth and correct evidence rather than manners...

Doyle,

Maybe Denis banned you from his FB page because you tend to write ranting, "blame game" posts like the one, above, because he doesn't like your calling another member "a liar," and because he doesn't appreciate your trying to tell him how to do his job.

Just wild guesses on my part ...

-- MWT  ;)
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 08, 2019, 04:59:16 AM
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Doyle,

Maybe Denis banned you from his FB page because you tend to write ranting, "blame game" posts like the one, above, because he doesn't like your calling another member "a liar," and because he doesn't appreciate your trying to tell him how to do his job.

Just wild guesses on my part ...

-- MWT  ;)


Don't pretend you don't know what the issue is Thomas...

Iacoletti specializes in naysaying denial against the facts...It figures you would defend him over me...

Moricet banned me because he had to make a choice between credibility and numbers...If his "job" involves stocking his site with the same illiterates you yourself cited who just have an animus for me he's doing a good job...Don't give me that blame game stuff...You know exactly what I'm talking about and the issue is right or wrong and Dennis chose wrong because he didn't know how to moderate "right"...You're not seriously defending the posters he kept?...What's next?...Defending Kamp?...

At some point when your oversight results in your site being populated by dummies and deniers like Moricet's (and the other forum) then you bear responsibility...In my opinion rather than bear responsibility, Moricet, like the others, took the dishonest and cowardly way out and kept those who ignore the good evidence...We both know the Prayer Man mob has seriously corrupted JFK research and the sites that examine it...Iacoletti does not provide the rare and unique photo evidence I did at Moricet's and only provides contrarian noise...In my opinion Moricet is quite foolish for keeping the obviously less credible member of the two...

Let me know when you get around to admitting the man on the steps is Molina...

Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on June 08, 2019, 04:31:56 PM
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Don't pretend you don't know what the issue is Thomas...

Iacoletti specializes in naysaying denial against the facts...It figures you would defend him over me...

Moricet banned me because he had to make a choice between credibility and numbers...If his "job" involves stocking his site with the same illiterates you yourself cited who just have an animus for me he's doing a good job...Don't give me that blame game stuff...You know exactly what I'm talking about and the issue is right or wrong and Dennis chose wrong because he didn't know how to moderate "right"...You're not seriously defending the posters he kept?...What's next?...Defending Kamp?...

At some point when your oversight results in your site being populated by dummies and deniers like Moricet's (and the other forum) then you bear responsibility...In my opinion rather than bear responsibility, Moricet, like the others, took the dishonest and cowardly way out and kept those who ignore the good evidence...We both know the Prayer Man mob has seriously corrupted JFK research and the sites that examine it...Iacoletti does not provide the rare and unique photo evidence I did at Moricet's and only provides contrarian noise...In my opinion Moricet is quite foolish for keeping the obviously less credible member of the two...

Let me know when you get around to admitting the man on the steps is Molina...

      With each attempt You make to defend yourself, (and they are Numerous), the more Obvious it becomes why You were booted. Denis furthered the Discussion by placing You inside a "Cone Of Silence". It is Difficult if not Impossible to discuss an issue with someone that does their research at The Jerk Store.
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 08, 2019, 04:58:43 PM
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      With each attempt You make to defend yourself, (and they are Numerous), the more Obvious it becomes why You were booted. Denis furthered the Discussion by placing You inside a "Cone Of Silence". It is Difficult if not Impossible to discuss an issue with someone that does their research at The Jerk Store.


Thanks for proving my point...You focus on the ad hom while ignoring the accurate claim that I provide rare photos and content that seriously advances the evidence...The fact you ignore that Iacoletti offers nothing but disingenuous noise while my good evidence is now silenced only proves what I was saying...People are organizing in an anti-intellectual, primitive mob way against me because they were burned by my correct evidence that I rightly refused to back off of...

Let's take this thread for instance...Iacoletti is the offender and is the main violator because he is in uncredible contempt of the fact we have reasonably proven the 3 Women are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...They are, and that is a fact...Even Moricet made the definite claim that the middle woman "IS" Holt...So Moricet agrees with me but ends up rewarding Iacoletti who never has to answer for his wrongdoing...That doesn't make sense but it relieves Moricet from having to scrutinize content so he solves his problem by the less than honest but easiest way...

You yourself have hijacked the thread in to a silly sidebar over who filmed the 3 Women...It was obviously Darnell since we can see him running to catch up to the 3 Women and there is no one else who is in view who could possibly reach the 3 Women in time in Towner...It has to be Darnell and you have never credibly answered the fact MSNBC broadcast the clip of the 3 Women because they had access to the original Darnell film at the NBC archives...You continue to avoid this bigger picture and returning to your faulty internal logic...I'm sure if you seek petty smearing over good evidence you'll find the words and justification but in reality I'm not leading the JFK internet in the subject of Prayer Man for no reason and responsible researchers will admit that once we prove the 3 Women are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob that therefore Tall Woman is Calvery, which in turn means Frazier has identified Stanton as Prayer Man...Kamp is dishonestly trying to divert to his Malcolm Blunt material but he doesn't have the honesty or decency to admit he was wrong on backing Westbrook's claim that Holt was Calvery...Kamp said if he saw anything that made him change his mind he would - but he lied and is now staying quiet in reaction to this thread...Pays to have a bully moderator backing you I guess...   
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on June 08, 2019, 10:08:48 PM


     Nobody knows for a Fact that the man running across the Knoll is Darnell. You are assuming the 3 Women did Not Stop while walking across the Knoll. Foolish assumption. To this point, No One has been able to explain Why there is a time gap between the film snippet showing the 3 Women at the Top of the Knoll vs the film snippet showing them at the Bottom of the Knoll. 2 Different people filming the 3 Women with different cameras/film would explain the Time Gap between the 2 snippets + the Definition difference between the 2 film snippets.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 08, 2019, 10:29:08 PM
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     Nobody knows for a Fact that the man running across the Knoll is Darnell. You are assuming the 3 Women did Not Stop while walking across the Knoll. Foolish assumption. To this point, No One has been able to explain Why there is a time gap between the film snippet showing the 3 Women at the Top of the Knoll vs the film snippet showing them at the Bottom of the Knoll. 2 Different people filming the 3 Women with different cameras/film would explain the Time Gap between the 2 snippets + the Definition difference between the 2 film snippets.

Storing,

What makes you think the three women (Jacob, Holt and Simmons) are "at the Bottom of the Knoll" in either of those two "snippets"?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on June 08, 2019, 10:56:10 PM
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Storing,

What makes you think the three women (Jacob, Holt and Simmons) are "at the Bottom of the Knoll" in either of those two "snippets"?

-- MWT   ;)

   Without getting into your covert ID Quest, the length of the wall extending Down from the Pergola Shelter behind the 3 Women = a rough idea as to their location on the Knoll.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 08, 2019, 11:35:53 PM
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   Without getting into your covert ID Quest, the length of the wall extending Down from the Pergola Shelter behind the 3 Women = a rough idea as to their location on the Knoll.

Storing,

Do you believe the three women we're talking about were on or near the Elm Street sidewalk in the second "snippet"?

If so, then what is the woman on the right stepping down from?

-- MWT   :)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on June 09, 2019, 03:24:17 AM
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Storing,

Do you believe the three women we're talking about were on or near the Elm Street sidewalk in the second "snippet"?

If so, then what is the woman on the right stepping down from?

-- MWT   :)

      I believe You are confusing the 2 film snippets of the 3 Women. In chronological order the "2nd Snippet" would be the latter film footage with "MSNBC" printed on it. In that 2nd snippet you can see the wall that extends Down from the Pergola Shelter to Elm St. The snippet that You mentioned showing, "the woman on the right stepping down" would be the "1st Snippet" which I believe was filmed when the 3 Women were at the Top of the Knoll and very close to/on the the concrete steps in front of the Pergola. There is a Not-Filmed Time Gap between the 1st and the 2nd snippets. Snippet #1 shows the 3 women near/on the concrete steps close to the Pergola at the Top of the Knoll. Snippet #2 "MSNBC" suddenly shows the 3 Women at the Bottom of the Knoll. I believe the reason for this Not-Filmed Time Gap between the 2 snippets is due to their being filmed by 2 different camera MEN. One of the Camera MEN was positioned at the Top of the Knoll and filmed the 3 Women Up there.  He Stopped his filming as the 3 Women began heading Down the Knoll toward Elm ST.  (After the woman on the (R) "stepped down" from the concrete step). The 2nd cameraman Began his filming at the point the 3 Women were close to/at the bottom of the Knoll. 2 Camera Men filming these 3 Women at different points in time explains the Not-Filmed Time Gap BETWEEN Snippet #1 and Snippet #2. The disparity in the Visual Definition between these 2 film snippets is also explained by 2 Camera Men filming with 2 different cameras/film.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 09, 2019, 10:02:40 AM
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      I believe You are confusing the 2 film snippets of the 3 Women. In chronological order the "2nd Snippet" would be the latter film footage with "MSNBC" printed on it. In that 2nd snippet you can see the wall that extends Down from the Pergola Shelter to Elm St. The snippet that You mentioned showing, "the woman on the right stepping down" would be the "1st Snippet" which I believe was filmed when the 3 Women were at the Top of the Knoll and very close to/on the the concrete steps in front of the Pergola. There is a Not-Filmed Time Gap between the 1st and the 2nd snippets. Snippet #1 shows the 3 women near/on the concrete steps close to the Pergola at the Top of the Knoll. Snippet #2 "MSNBC" suddenly shows the 3 Women at the Bottom of the Knoll. I believe the reason for this Not-Filmed Time Gap between the 2 snippets is due to their being filmed by 2 different camera MEN. One of the Camera MEN was positioned at the Top of the Knoll and filmed the 3 Women Up there.  He Stopped his filming as the 3 Women began heading Down the Knoll toward Elm ST.  (After the woman on the (R) "stepped down" from the concrete step). The 2nd cameraman Began his filming at the point the 3 Women were close to/at the bottom of the Knoll. 2 Camera Men filming these 3 Women at different points in time explains the Not-Filmed Time Gap BETWEEN Snippet #1 and Snippet #2. The disparity in the Visual Definition between these 2 film snippets is also explained by 2 Camera Men filming with 2 different cameras/film.

In the clip that James shared with us recently (the one in which the woman on the left is gesturing with her hands and rolling her eyed eyes skyward) where do you believe those three women are walking at the moment:

1)  across the Pergola Patio

2)  across the grass after having left the patio

3) or neither?

Edit:  What makes you think the women are "at the bottom of the knoll in the second clip (the one James provided to us recently), and not on the grass higher up?
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on June 09, 2019, 02:41:12 PM
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In the clip that James shared with us recently (the one in which the woman on the left is gesturing with her hands and rolling her eyed eyes skyward) where do you believe those three women are walking at the moment:

1)  across the Pergola Patio

2)  across the grass after having left the patio

3) or neither?

Edit:  What makes you think the women are "at the bottom of the knoll in the second clip (the one James provided to us recently), and not on the grass higher up?

    The clip/snippet supplied by James is also referred to as the "MSNBC" snippet due to that Logo being placed in the bottom (R) corner of the footage. That same clip/snippet is also referred to as Snippet #2 due to it chronologically having occurred After Snippet #1. I think Snippet #2 was filmed close to/at the Bottom of the Knoll due to seeing in the background:(1) the Pergola Shelter closest to the TSBD, (2) the concrete abutment which The Steps run Down from (the same Steps that the Woman on the (R) steps Down from at the end of Snippet #1), (3) the concrete Wall extending Down to Elm St from that same Pergola Shelter, (4) the Hedges/Foliage which hug that same Wall all the way Down to Elm St, and (5) People using the Walkway which runs parallel to the Wall extending Down to Elm St. ALL of this is Now behind the 3 Women in the "MSNBC" snippet #2 supplied by James. Remember, the Low Grade Definition of Snippet #1 shows the Woman on the (R) stepping Down from The Steps which are close to the Pergola at the Top of the Knoll. In the clip/snippet supplied by James, those Steps at the Top portion of the Knoll is well to the Rear the 3 Women. With Snippet #1 showing the woman on the (R) stepping down from the Steps, and the James snippet/#2 suddenly showing the 3 women Now close to/at the bottom of the Knoll, there is obviously an Un-Filmed Time Gap in the journey of these 3 women as they traveled Down the Knoll. I think the reason for this Un-Filmed Time Gap is 2 different camera men filmed each of these snippets. Each camera man was filming at a different point in time and capturing a different portion of the journey the 3 Women took Down the Knoll. The Definition Difference we see in the footage of these 2 Snippets further supports this idea.   
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 09, 2019, 04:01:24 PM
Clip #1 was taken by Darnell whom you see running to catch up to the 3 Women...It is clearer than clip #2 because the Bandicam technology that was used to process clip #1 cleaned up its roughness using modern digital technology...Clip #1 would look like clip #2 in blurry-ness if the Bandicam technology hadn't cleaned it up...

Both clips are part of the Darnell film...

It is still theoretically possible that Clip #1 used the original Darnell film and was transferred using better modern technology...It is possible the source was Oliver Stone who accessed the original Darnell film because he had the clout because of his movie...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on June 10, 2019, 11:02:55 AM
If you’re in Dallas go to the Research Room in the TSBD and ask to see the complete Darnell film.
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 10, 2019, 03:05:29 PM
So it can not be shown on your site right Denis?...So you can showcase Iacoletti's obnoxious taunting as a preferred member...

To show the total dysfunction caused by the Prayer Man people, there are internet research site members who live in Dallas who could easily do that but don't due to the idiotic internecine political pressure put on them for taking the wrong side and potentially gaining the disfavor of the Prayer Man bullies who ban people who start to prove the evidence against Prayer Man...Those dummies ban people yet then ask them to go get evidence on the same subject they were banned over...Community dysfunction and hypocrisy caused by the Prayer Man bullies...They don't do it because they know what they will find will prove me right so it's easier to ban instead...A huge double standard playing field that favors the Prayer Man thugs...And those people pose themselves as righteous protesters over the censorship and persecution done by the government against truth-seekers in the Kennedy assassination while they do an even worse form of the same thing themselves...

Don't believe that BS about the Deep Politics Forum being a refuge for people who were treated unfairly on the EF...The DPF Forum is there specifically to be a bully pit for the posters with the Founding Member and Moderator avatars so their opinions are hypocritically unchallenged even when you can prove they are wrong and violating their own site rules...My being banned by a witless moderator, Lauren Johnson, was done because I had proven Prayer Man was Stanton and went against the ignorant opinion of those power-abusing persons who used DiEugenio to determine difficult evidence...When they banned me for proving good evidence they directly violated the written site rules and their purpose...DPF is a DiEugenio bully club that is run by an anti-intellectual thug whose moderation purpose is to keep himself in total dictatorial power while preventing any smart member from exposing his incompetency...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on June 11, 2019, 12:45:59 AM
I wish I had the complete film. I’ll be able to see it in 10 years, if health permits.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on June 11, 2019, 04:30:50 AM
    If the technology used by Oliver Stone actually cleaned up the alleged Darnell snippet he used in "JFK", why is this same technology Not currently being used on ALL the film Darnell shot, as well as other fuzzy/low definition film footage that was shot that day? There is a Significant definition difference between ALL the fuzzy Darnell footage we have seen thus far vs that 3 Women snippet from "JFK" the movie. The recently discovered Darnell snippet which showed both Press Buses on Houston St and and the Pool area across from the TSBD would certainly be interesting to see in the same clarity with which we are seeing the 3 Women on the Knoll. Likewise, vastly improving the clarity of images showing the Steps in front of the TSBD would help resolve many questions attached to that area.   
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 11, 2019, 04:04:42 PM
It doesn't help that some people are arguing pet theories that there are multiple camera men taking the Darnell clips when the evidence suggests that both clips of the 3 Women were taken by Darnell on the Grassy Knoll...If there is no NBC logo in Stone's clip then that is because he didn't want any trademark logos interfering with his cinemagraphic shot...

It strikes me that if Stone got the original Darnell film for that clip that there would be a record for it in the film references...That it would be accessible in the documentation of the making of the film somewhere...

A good researcher should not have to spend years and undergo unfair bannings in order to prove the obvious that Sarah Stanton is Prayer Man...The JFK research community is not credible and that's the problem...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 12, 2019, 06:37:37 PM
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Behold, I give you (from left to right) Westbrook's "Uhh ... Probably Carol Reed, Definitely Gloria Calvery, and Me, Karen Westbrook!"

LOL

(https://i.imgur.com/1yviAtz.gif)

-- MWT   ;)

Bumped, in a probably futile attempt to get this thread back on track.

-- MWT  ;)
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on June 19, 2019, 05:54:50 PM

We can safely claim we have proven the 3 Women in both Zapruder and Darnell are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...

That makes Tall Woman Calvery and we can progress with the rest of the evidence that makes Prayer Man Stanton and therefore places Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room during the shots...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 19, 2019, 07:45:55 PM
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We can safely claim we have proven the 3 Women in both Zapruder and Darnell are Simmons, Holt, and Jacob...

You can claim it, but that doesn't make it true.

Quote
That makes Tall Woman Calvery and we can progress with the rest of the evidence that makes Prayer Man Stanton and therefore places Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room during the shots...

Nope, none of this follows whatsoever.  The alleged identities of the women in the Darnell clip tell you exactly nothing about who is who in Zapruder, who "tall woman" is, or where Oswald was at the time of the shots.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 20, 2019, 12:11:49 AM
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The alleged identities of the women in the Darnell clip [Jacob, Holt and Simmons] tell you exactly nothing about who is who in Zapruder, who "tall woman" is, or where Oswald was at the time of the shots.

Iacoletti,

I does to a non-agended-up, reasonable person with reasonably good eyesight, based on his or her own probability-based and made-sense-of "life experiences".

D'oh

I guess nerdish geeks tend to miss out on that sort of thing, huh?

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 20, 2019, 12:23:30 AM
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I does to a non-agended-up, reasonable person with reasonably good eyesight, based on his or her own probability-based and made-sense-of "life experiences".

That's your evidence?  "Life experiences".  LOL.

How about Karen Westbrook's life experience of actually being there that day?

You're a hoot.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 20, 2019, 07:25:45 AM
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How about Karen Westbrook's life experience of actually being there that day?

Iacoletti, you poor misguided thing, you.

Taking into consideration:

1) The very high likelihood that the three gals filmed by Darnell as they stepped down from the Pergola Patio are the same three gals who were filmed walking towards the edge of the Pergola Patio by Tina Towner's father a few minutes after the assassination

2) The very high likelihood, based on normal human visual observation, that the three gals in the Towner film are the same three gals who were standing near the Stemmons Sign in Zapruder (dark brown jacket and white skirt on the black-haired gal on the left in both instances, blondish hair and dark raincoat or long-sleeved full-length dress on the gal next to her, and light-blue headscarf and dark raincoat or long-sleeved full-length dress on the gal next to her

3) the fact that the gal Westbrook "identified" as herself in the Zapruder film was wearing a hair-hiding (light-blue) headscarf and a figure-hiding (dark-colored) raincoat

4) The fact that Westbrook made said "identification" 54 years after-the-fact and from behind

Leads the "reasonable man" to conclude that your beloved Karen Westbrook Pillbox is full of beans.

Period.

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on June 25, 2019, 07:01:32 PM
(https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/120/twitter/185/yawning-face_1f971.png)

"high likelihood" defined as Thomas Graves' wild-ass guesses.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on June 26, 2019, 01:25:47 AM
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"high likelihood" defined as Thomas Graves' wild-ass guesses.

Denis Morissette,

Are you afraid to chime in on this?

Hmm.  Crickets.

Anybody?

(Except Doyle, that is.)

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on September 30, 2019, 11:03:37 PM
I was hoping that the ladies of a specific group in the Z-film would turn their head at one point. And they did. The results are not great, though. One of the ladies has lots of hair like Mrs. Westbrook had. I'll try later to find a better image.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0NpPSfQp/Untitled-3.jpg)
Title: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Brian Doyle on October 01, 2019, 01:17:36 AM

It's Carol Reed...
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on October 01, 2019, 03:36:26 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVwHP5qx/Untitled-4.jpg)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Larry Trotter on October 01, 2019, 06:42:15 PM
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Denis Morissette,

Are you afraid to chime in on this?

Hmm.  Crickets.

Anybody?

(Except Doyle, that is.)

-- MWT   ;)
Not your/ThomasGraves' "wild ass guesses", but high likelihood of identity determined by open minded, fact seeking research and/or research studies.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on October 01, 2019, 09:40:56 PM
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Not your/ThomasGraves' "wild ass guesses", but high likelihood of identity determined by open minded, fact seeking research and/or research studies.

Thanks for the moral support, Larry!

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on October 01, 2019, 09:47:50 PM
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I was hoping that the ladies of a specific group in the Z-film would turn their head at one point. And they did. The results are not great, though. One of the ladies has lots of hair like Mrs. Westbrook had. I'll try later to find a better image.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0NpPSfQp/Untitled-3.jpg)

Great work, Denis.

Question:  Do you think it's fair to say that the woman to her left (tall, dark-haired Karen Westbrook, imho) is wearing a very light-blue colored headscarf (which might explain Westbrook's confusing Sharon Simmons' darker blue headscarf for her own, from behind, and 54 years after-the-fact)? 

(Especially visible in the top frame you posted.)

--  MWT   ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Denis Morissette on October 01, 2019, 10:48:12 PM
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Great work, Denis.

Question:  Do you think it's fair to say that the woman to her left (tall, dark-haired Karen Westbrook, imho) is wearing a very light-blue colored headscarf (which might explain Westbrook's confusing Sharon Simmons' darker blue headscarf for her own, from behind, and 54 years after-the-fact)? 

(Especially visible in the top frame you posted.)

--  MWT   ;)

It totally makes sense.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 02, 2019, 02:48:22 PM
“Very light blue”. LOL.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on October 02, 2019, 10:25:33 PM
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“Very light blue”. LOL.

Well, John, it certainly isn't a medium blue, like that of Sharron Simmons, the gal standing next to the Stemmons sign in Zapruder.

--  MWT  ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 05, 2019, 05:44:24 AM
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Well, John, it certainly isn't a medium blue, like that of Sharron Simmons, the gal standing next to the Stemmons sign in Zapruder.

No such person.

And the woman (what the hell is a “gal”?) who appears to be next to the sign in Zapruder is Karen Westbrook.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on October 05, 2019, 06:42:08 AM
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No such person.

And the woman (what the hell is a “gal”?) who appears to be next to the sign in Zapruder is Karen Westbrook.

John,

You and Westbrook have a lot of damn gall to call the medium-blue-headscarf-wearing gal "Karen Westbrook," when in reality she's Sharon Simmons, work colleague of Stella Mae Jacob and Gloria Holt.

Tell me this, Mister Rational -- If that's Westbrook and if the gal to her immediate left is Gloria Calvery, and if the gal to her left is " uhh ... probably Carol Reed," then where the hell are Jacob, Holt and Simmons, all three of whom said they were watching the motorcade together, about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass?

And for that matter, seein' as how the gal on the left can't possibly be light-complected Reed, where the hell is she and Karan Hicks?

Partial answer: Hicks is running down Elm Extension, towards the TSBD, in Couch-Darnell ...

D'oh

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on October 05, 2019, 03:37:21 PM
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John,

You and Westbrook have a lot of damn gall to call the medium-blue-headscarf-wearing gal "Karen Westbrook," when in reality she's Sharon Simmons, work colleague of Stella Mae Jacob and Gloria Holt.

Tell me this, Mister Rational -- If that's Westbrook and if the gal to her immediate left is Gloria Calvery, and if the gal to her left is " uhh ... probably Carol Reed," then where the hell are Jacob, Holt and Simmons, all three of whom said they were watching the motorcade together, about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass?

And for that matter, seein' as how the gal on the left can't possibly be light-complected Reed, where the hell is she and Karan Hicks?

Partial answer: Hicks is running down Elm Extension, towards the TSBD, in Couch-Darnell ...

D'oh

-- MWT  ;)

    Kindly help me out here.  The Elm Extension runs alongside/parallel to the front of the TSBD. Anyone/Hicks "running Down Elm Extension" in either direction can Not be running "TOWARDS the TSBD" as you state above. Please clarify what you are getting at.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 07, 2019, 11:05:55 PM
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You and Westbrook have a lot of damn gall to call the medium-blue-headscarf-wearing gal "Karen Westbrook," when in reality she's Sharon Simmons, work colleague of Stella Mae Jacob and Gloria Holt.

You have a lot of damn gall to call the blue-headscarf-wearing woman "Sharon Simmons," when in reality she's Karen Westbrook.

You also have a lot of damn gall referring to women as “gals”.

Quote
Tell me this, Mister Rational -- If that's Westbrook and if the gal to her immediate left is Gloria Calvery, and if the gal to her left is " uhh ... probably Carol Reed," then where the hell are Jacob, Holt and Simmons, all three of whom said they were watching the motorcade together, about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass?

I could make up names and assign them to blobs like you do, but I’m too honest.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on October 08, 2019, 07:28:00 AM
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    Kindly help me out here.  The Elm Extension runs alongside/parallel to the front of the TSBD. Anyone/Hicks "running Down Elm Extension" in either direction can Not be running "TOWARDS the TSBD" as you state above. Please clarify what you are getting at.

Storing,

Funny that you're the first person to complain about that during the five years or so "researchers" have been talking about the people in the synchronized Couch-Darnell clips.

How about "the gal (Karan Hicks) running from left-to-right on Elm Street Extension in Couch-Darnell"?

That work for you?

-- MWT  ;)

PS  Should I have said, "running towards the intersection of Houston Street and Elm Street," instead?
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Thomas Graves on October 08, 2019, 07:43:19 AM
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You have a lot of damn gall to call the blue-headscarf-wearing woman "Sharon Simmons," when in reality she's Karen Westbrook.

You also have a lot of damn gall referring to women as “gals”.

I could make up names and assign them to blobs like you do, but I’m too honest.

John,

Do you think I "made up" the names of Texas School Book Company employees Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons?

Blobs?  What blobs? 

(You really should stop performing that nasty ritual in the garden every night.)

John Iacoletti:  "I'm honest".

LOL

-- MWT  ;)
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: Royell Storing on October 08, 2019, 03:25:49 PM
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Storing,

Funny that you're the first person to complain about that during the five years or so "researchers" have been talking about the people in the synchronized Couch-Darnell clips.

How about "the gal (Karan Hicks) running from left-to-right on Elm Street Extension in Couch-Darnell"?

That work for you?

-- MWT  ;)

PS  Should I have said, "running towards the intersection of Houston Street and Elm Street," instead?

     Your defensive hostility is unwarranted. Most of us come to this forum in the hopes of gathering New Information and exploring JFK assassination concepts we are unfamiliar with.  Sorry I bothered You.
Title: Re: More Darnell Film of the Three Young Women
Post by: John Iacoletti on October 08, 2019, 11:37:54 PM
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Do you think I "made up" the names of Texas School Book Company employees Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons?

Blobs?  What blobs? 

The blobs you keep assigning names to, like you know for a fact who they are.